Author: johng

Welcome to Episode 587 of what’s your and. This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest side of work. In other words, it’s encouraging people to find their and. Those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work. It’s the answer to the question of who else are you beyond the job title. And if you like what the show’s about, be sure to check out the award winning book. It’s on Amazon Indigo, Barnes and Noble bookshop, a few other Sites. All the links are at what’s your and.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why this outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right. This voice reading the book, look for what’s your and on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Jason Stats. He’s the founder of Realize, a community of accounting firm leaders and the host of his podcast, Jason Daley, And now he’s with me here today. Jason, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your Hand.

Jason Staats [00:01:34]:

Hello. Thank you for having me, John. It’s great to be here.

John Garrett [00:01:37]:

Yeah. After we got to hang out and meet each other in person in Chicago at bridging the gap. So, yeah, I’m excited to have you on. I have 17 rapid fire questions, which I wanted to ask you in person, but I didn’t wanna make it weird. So I figured I’d just do it for the podcast. So

Jason Staats [00:01:53]:

Let’s do it.

John Garrett [00:01:54]:

Your seat belt is on. We’re ready to go.

Jason Staats [00:01:55]:

17. Jeez Louise. Okay.

John Garrett [00:01:57]:

Yeah. It’s gonna get to know you quickly. Favorite color?

Jason Staats [00:02:00]:

Green.

John Garrett [00:02:01]:

Green? Solid. Okay. How about a least favorite color?

Jason Staats [00:02:04]:

Yeah. Brown.

John Garrett [00:02:05]:

Brown. That’s by far the most popular, least popular. I don’t even know if that Sense, but it’s everybody says that.

Jason Staats [00:02:11]:

It’s all the other colors. Like, if your favorite color is brown, like, pick a color. That’s all the colors.

John Garrett [00:02:15]:

Right. Right. Yeah. Exactly. How about your 1st concert?

Jason Staats [00:02:20]:

Oh, 4th grade. I had a recorder solo.

John Garrett [00:02:24]:

Oh. Oh, you performing even. Okay.

Jason Staats [00:02:26]:

Oh, yeah.

John Garrett [00:02:27]:

Alright. I like it. Nice. Alright. How about a favorite Disney character?

Jason Staats [00:02:31]:

Oh.

John Garrett [00:02:32]:

Or anything animated, I’ll take you.

Jason Staats [00:02:34]:

Big guy in Moana. I can’t remember

John Garrett [00:02:35]:

his name.

Jason Staats [00:02:36]:

Yeah. But he cracks me up. He’s voiced by The Rock. Yeah.

John Garrett [00:02:39]:

Yeah. I don’t remember his name either. But, yeah, great character. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Jason Staats [00:02:45]:

Ryan Reynolds and Donald Glover, it’s a tie. I can’t pick 1. To the extent that I’ve literally had dreams about each in the last week

John Garrett [00:02:52]:

Oh, okay.

Jason Staats [00:02:54]:

Getting into their friend group. Like, that’s like, a grown man having dreams about that. That’s the extent to which that goes.

John Garrett [00:03:00]:

Very talented individual. That’s for sure. Oh, this is an important one. Toilet paper roll. Is it over or under?

Jason Staats [00:03:06]:

Over.

John Garrett [00:03:06]:

Over. Yeah.

Jason Staats [00:03:08]:

I assume if people say under, you just you don’t even publish those episodes?

John Garrett [00:03:11]:

Yeah. We just stop, And it’s the shortest episodes ever. That’s how I got up to 587 or whatever we’re on.

Jason Staats [00:03:17]:

There were actually, like, 800 that you recorded there.

John Garrett [00:03:20]:

Yep. All these cat people. That’s the only excuse they got. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Jason Staats [00:03:26]:

Star Trek next gen, man. That was like prime elementary school, early middle school. I like both, but You can’t beat Patrick Stewart.

John Garrett [00:03:33]:

There you go. Yeah. No. Very much. Computer, PC or a Mac?

Jason Staats [00:03:38]:

Historically, PC, but I just spent the last 2 months while traveling using a Mac, and it’s just better. Problem is that, like, it just doesn’t support everything that I need.

John Garrett [00:03:48]:

Alright. I’m not cool enough to even Try. So but I like the 2 month idea because then it’s like, well

Jason Staats [00:03:52]:

I saw you at your Surface laptop at the conference.

John Garrett [00:03:55]:

That’s awesome. Right?

Jason Staats [00:04:00]:

Still recovering from big firm life, I see.

John Garrett [00:04:03]:

Yeah. Totally. Oceans or mountains?

Jason Staats [00:04:06]:

Mountains.

John Garrett [00:04:07]:

Okay. Alright. There we go. Oh, this is a fun one. Shower or bath?

Jason Staats [00:04:11]:

Oh, shower. I don’t need to I don’t need to land my own stuff. Right?

John Garrett [00:04:16]:

There you go. Ice cream. I’m a huge junkie. In a cup or in a cone?

Jason Staats [00:04:20]:

Cone.

John Garrett [00:04:20]:

Tone? Oh, okay. What’s a typical breakfast?

Jason Staats [00:04:24]:

Blowing right through it until lunch.

John Garrett [00:04:26]:

Oh, okay. Alright. Just Skip. Alright. How about balance sheet or income statement?

Jason Staats [00:04:32]:

Balance sheet. Oh. Until the bodies are buried. Right?

John Garrett [00:04:35]:

Yeah. And plus then you know it’s It’s right because it balances. Yeah. So it’s like, alright. We’re done. Like, there we go. Do you have a favorite number?

Jason Staats [00:04:43]:

22.

John Garrett [00:04:44]:

Yeah. Is there a reason?

Jason Staats [00:04:46]:

Because in, like, middle school basketball, they made you pick 1, and you just said that at the top of your head and then never had a reason to change.

John Garrett [00:04:52]:

Right. And then you were 22 forever. I get it. There you go. Nice. We got 2 more books, audio version, ebook, or the real book?

Jason Staats [00:05:01]:

Audio into real book if it’s worth it. Oh. So audio, there’s, like, on my book tier list. If it’s an okay book, I’ll audio all the way through, and the, like, The speed also scales with how good it is. Sure. If I get in a bit and it’s killer, then I’m switching to physical.

John Garrett [00:05:16]:

Oh, okay. You’re slowing it down and then make the jump. Okay. Alright. And the last 1, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Jason Staats [00:05:24]:

Oh, can I just say we’re thinking about moving, and I would say this house because I moved in right when I got married? We had our 3 kids here, and, like, all of my kids’ childhood, like, visuals are associated with this stupid house, and all of its flaws. So, like, as we’re as we’re thinking about getting a different one, I’m like, oh, when it’s you know, all of a sudden you get Yeah, Jake.

John Garrett [00:05:46]:

You’re in the middle of love it or list it, aren’t you? You’re like, oh, but all the things. Stupid house. Yeah. No. That totally counts, man. Of course, all the memories and all the things that you’ve gone through. Very cool. That’s awesome, man. Yeah. So let’s talk making silly things. Like, how did this start? Was it right after the recorder solo? You were like, that’s it. I’m, making silly things.

Jason Staats [00:06:06]:

Or I think there’s certain people, and you’re probably one of those people, who just have a different level of absurdity in their brain that they’re not allowed to express in day to day life. Yeah. And we’ve all seen this when, like, somebody makes this stupid video, and you’re like, how did that come out of that person said, like, That’s what’s going on in there all day, and it’s I didn’t do any media stuff, like, in high school. Like, I wasn’t the movie nerd or any like, I wasn’t any of that, but I always just make enjoyed making silly things from, like, cartoon flipbooks in elementary school. You know? And I just like, I I would just love, like, The fun of bringing that thing to life and, like, just making absurd things that, I don’t know, that nobody else lets you make in other mediums.

John Garrett [00:06:52]:

Yeah. No. And that’s a huge compliment that because I was like, where is this going? Where is he? You seem like the kinda weirdo that, Yeah. Yeah. Nailed it. Because there is there’s like a bizarro world that happens in my brain where it’s like, man, wouldn’t that be awesome if This happened or wouldn’t it be awesome if that happened? Or when I’m on stage speaking, you don’t even know the b roll. I mean, it’s wow. That person really chose that sweater vest to wear today? That’s amazing. Like or whatever. I mean, just all the things that go through my head.

Jason Staats [00:07:21]:

Interestingly, like, how many common Thoughts we have, like, in that dimension. And, like, you you find a way to, like, express this thing and so and other people being like, Oh my gosh. Yes. Like, that’s the really fun thing to me. Right?

John Garrett [00:07:34]:

Right. Yeah. Because then you feel less like the circus sideshow and more like, oh, not just me. Cool. Yeah. Alright. Yeah. And, I mean, through through stand up is where I was able to share a lot of that, you know, and and so you’ve chosen the route of Mostly YouTube and and podcast?

Jason Staats [00:07:51]:

Yeah. So and this is where, like, I’m struggling with this now is when I ran a firm, like, it was the creative outlet, but now I produce videos, and that’s basically my job. But I would argue much like stand up, What I published is what people want and will engage with. Like, if you go out and you do a set and the whole thing bombs, You gotta iterate. Like, it’s for them to ever have you back. Right? And so, like, what my end is now is the stupid stuff that I just like making. And, like, I’ll go make 1, like, with my kids.

John Garrett [00:08:26]:

Yeah. Okay.

Jason Staats [00:08:27]:

And I tell you what, like, the AI tools are just pouring gasoline on that ridiculous, silly fire of, like, this stupid stuff that you can make just, like, Super quickly and easily, in fact so I am a listener of this show. They didn’t make me say that line that was at the beginning here. I’m a listener. I have always had 1 beef with the production of the pod. Like, nothing major, but just, I don’t know. Some feedback I could give you as, you know, fellow creative. Okay. Specifically, the intro jingle. Like, for me, it’s it feels just a little too corporate.

John Garrett [00:09:05]:

I picked it. That’s probably why.

Jason Staats [00:09:06]:

Yeah. So I whipped something up for you. Let let me know what you think of this.

John Garrett [00:09:25]:

Is that Anderson Cooper?

Jason Staats [00:09:29]:

It didn’t quite stick the landing at the end. Instead of and, it just kinda went, ah, but my latest ridiculous obsession is these AI thinks it will make music for you, and they’re getting so good. Like, I don’t know that you can call that good, but They’re, like, passable enough to be, like, absolutely hilarious to me, and it’s like, and so my mind just goes to What’s your thing Jeremy? Make with this. Anderson

John Garrett [00:09:54]:

I love it, man. I love it. You got the flooded Irish. You got the Anderson Cooper, visual. You got, like, What’s your and? You got a list of several ands in there? Nice, man.

Jason Staats [00:10:05]:

I think the genre that I put in was polka Irish.

John Garrett [00:10:13]:

Isn’t even a thing, but it is now. So that’s even better. That’s that’s awesome, man. No. I love it. I will definitely consider that because, I mean, I chose that that intro and the jingle. I don’t listen to podcasts. Like, I’m not a consumer of things. I’m a creator of things, And those are 2 different individuals. And so I didn’t listen to any podcasts, so I just picked something that didn’t irritate me, really, is how I landed on it. So maybe it needs a refresh.

Jason Staats [00:10:37]:

I’ll send you the song, and and we can work out the licensing offer.

John Garrett [00:10:41]:

Right. Right. Well, you’re welcome, everybody. There we go. Like, I I wonder why no one’s listening to the show anymore. Like, it’s they’re like, what? Oh my right when they turn it on.

Jason Staats [00:10:51]:

There’s a certain, like, ear piercing quality to AI stuff right now. And, really, visuals is the same way. Like, it’s kind of cursed and looks weird. But

John Garrett [00:10:59]:

Yeah. Yeah. That’s hilarious. So do you have, like, Some, like, favorite things that you’ve created over the years. I mean, maybe from the very beginning even, or maybe it’s something with the kids.

Jason Staats [00:11:10]:

Probably yeah. The thing that is, like, nearest and dearest to my heart is probably the first thing I made with the kids one day. And it was actually after the end of this last year where I’d literally been making videos all day, and they were like, these are valuable videos. They’re gonna teach people things, and people will like them. But they’re not, like, stupid, ridiculous videos. And I got done, and I was like, let’s just get weird. And so I went upstairs just with my phone, and, like, my kids love performing. About 2, a 4, and a 6 year old. Like, they just love they love watching my videos. They think that’s really funny. And so they love They understand all that and love the idea of performing. So we made a little movie. It’s 2 or 3 minutes. I can run you through the plot line. It follows the traditional hero’s journey. It’s called the day Sharky ate baby kitty. And so Sharky is a pink little stuffed animal. Baby kitty is my 6 year old’s most beloved stuffy. Oh. And the general plot line is the cat gets eaten. We go on a journey to recover said cat. Shark jumps into the boat at one point. There’s a pretty graphic scene where the shark bites mom, but then eventually we get the cat back out of the shark. And it’s got, like, music and sound effects. And, like, I Edited the whole thing with my son, and, like, we watch it back, and they just think it’s the most hilarious thing ever because, like, they’re the stars of the show. And and I think it’s kind of like mind opening for them too because, like, we all consume so much. But to see into the other side of that, I think, is cool.

John Garrett [00:12:35]:

No. I love this story too. There’s a little bit of Jonah in there. There’s a little bit of, we’re gonna need a bigger boat, jaws lines. Like, I feel like there’s some there’s a lot. That’s great. And just to make it up on the spot is awesome, man, and and that’s that’s really cool. And that’s the kind of thing that, yeah, 20 years from now, you’re gonna look at and and have good laughs about.

Jason Staats [00:12:53]:

That would be amazing. Like, I don’t know if you had family videos growing up.

John Garrett [00:12:57]:

Oh, yeah.

Jason Staats [00:12:58]:

Yeah. Our version of family videos was like standing up the camera on the tripod in Corner on Christmas morning, and you’ve now got 4 hours of footage that is dad telling you to put the wrapping paper into the garbage bin. Right? And I would love for somebody to make me, like, a 10 minute supercut of that. But, hopefully, this is, like, a more interesting

John Garrett [00:13:19]:

question. When I was a kid, it was the reel to reel with no audio. So, you know, they were just like you know, it’s like the The JFK assassination kind of footage.

Jason Staats [00:13:28]:

There was no audio?

John Garrett [00:13:29]:

Yeah. No audio. Yeah. Yeah. So it was I mean, it’s colored, but then you get back these, like, little reels of film that you put into a reel to reel projector, and then it shoots it up on the screen that you, like, put up. And then after that then was 8 millimeter, like camcorder when they first came out. But, man, those camcorders were huge and heavy and, Yeah. But then in in high school, we we made for a class project. We made a Dukes of Hazard episode, And there was no script. Like, we just went out with my parents’ camcorder and shot this thing. Like, the Duke farm was gonna get sold, and so they were like, well, we’re gonna race To make money so we can save the farm from these foreign, like, investors from overseas or whatever. But the the Duke boys were too dumb, so every race, they only race for a dollar Instead of, like, real money, and so there’s, like, a 1000 races, like, and then and, like, the commercials were bleach for, like, bleach burnouts And, like, all these, like, you know, total Conversion. Hard deal. Oh, man. We were those were back in the day. Like, editing was so hard. I mean, it’s it’s crazy, and you’ve You’ve done a lot of that that editing side as well from your creation.

Jason Staats [00:14:40]:

Yeah. It’s so most people know me from YouTube and Twitter mainly, and it’s People look at it, and they’re like, wow. It’s very impressive. And it’s like, well, it’s because you didn’t watch all the really awful ones that I did. I so I was running a I was running a 40 person firm and published 2 videos a week to YouTube for 18 months. So, like, As with anything, the reason that they’re good now is because I spent more time and money on that than anyone would have ever thought was reasonable at the time, Just like you doing over a 1000 shows, you know, on stage, like, how anybody gets prolific at anything is just investing more time and energy into that thing and anyone else thinks it’s reasonable, and they might be right. But I especially think like, when I think about, you know, trying not to raise iPad Kids, and just, like, consumption culture. And you talking about, you know, wanting to create more than consume. I think one of the best things I can instill in my kids is just, like, tearing down some of the mystique of, like, this thing that I watched or this thing that I consume or this video game that I played and instead, like, understanding, like, people do this for work, and, like, this is their jobs, and this is how it works and trying to build some of that curiosity in so that they can create too and not just consume.

John Garrett [00:15:56]:

That’s great. Yeah. No. I mean, especially The more that reality TV is not real. You know? I mean, it’s like but then you try and explain that to people, but it’s called. I don’t care what it’s called. Like, you know, it’s At the end of the show, there’s a list of writers. Why do you think that is? Like, you know, it’s just it’s a Yeah.

Jason Staats [00:16:14]:

I’m a little afraid we’re gonna get, like, a second boom of reality with, like, the strike now and how long this is probably gonna drag on, and that was kind of the original thing that kicked that off.

John Garrett [00:16:25]:

Right. Yeah. With Survivor. Yeah. No. I I love it, but so you used to run a firm, and, like, how much did those skills play out? Did it give you any skills that you used at work at all?

Jason Staats [00:16:39]:

That’s a good question. I don’t know. Probably just, like, interpersonally and how I connected with people. I think There’s probably some kinda bleed over there. My role was I was able to get completely removed from the doing of the work, and I just oversaw Strategy and and people and and all of that stuff. But there was occasionally stuff where we would put out things as a firm, and I could I could absolutely put out, like, content that was Much better than you would expect from a traditional firm, but there wasn’t a ton of bleed, like, crossover, I don’t think. And that’s, I think what made it fun was, like, running an accounting firm and going in and talking to the same people and the same clients every day. Like, I needed a way to Spice things up. Like, that wasn’t enough for me. Yeah. And so this was kind of the polar opposite of that.

John Garrett [00:17:28]:

Yeah. Yeah. And then now that you’ve made The leap, if you will, to where this is the career, is there an and beyond making silly things, or is it does it matter? Do you need 1?

Jason Staats [00:17:40]:

I would say that the stuff that I publish for work, the stuff that goes online generally isn’t silly. What I would bucket as silly things.

John Garrett [00:17:47]:

Got it.

Jason Staats [00:17:48]:

My aunt is just creating. Like, I just love creating, like, from the stupid song to, like, anything. Like, I love bringing funny things to life. In the state of, like, content online right now, you can make funny stuff and it gets a ton of engagement, but it’s really hard to build a business around funny stuff. So my business is being helpful Yeah. Whether that’s on social media or YouTube or anything like that. But I still absolutely adore, You know, hanging out with people like you and, like, learning about joke writing and improv and being able to take an idea and in 30 minutes have this Silly little 92nd thing that you make or you make with your kids. And Yeah. I would say that’s always kind of been my end. Like, we do, like, little Skits in our family and stuff like that. So

John Garrett [00:18:31]:

Fair. No. No. Yeah. So it they’re close, but they are different. So it’s not just more of The same. There still is an outlet. There is a thing that’s not the career type of concept. And yeah. And so when you did work and ran the firm or even, you know, before running a firm, like, in in all of your career. Did you share that side of you with people? Well, I guess they knew a little bit, but maybe not, obviously, the silly videos.

Jason Staats [00:18:55]:

I didn’t. Towards the end, like, People were aware that I would like I like I mean, I had the biggest channel on YouTube for accounting

John Garrett [00:19:05]:

for a loaner.

Jason Staats [00:19:06]:

Yeah. Yeah. And, like, I think when people think about making this content, they get this, like, spotlight effect of like, oh, everybody’s gonna be watching. Okay? Let me tell you. The people in your life generally could not care less. Like, there was not a single person in my firm that that watched any of my content. I can’t get my wife to watch any of that. Like, like, Absolutely nobody cared. So people in my firm knew, but it’s like, they were turning up and, like, it was a job. And like you talk about, like, they kinda put Their blinders on for, like, what am I supposed to be in the context of this job rather than, like, turning up as your actual self.

John Garrett [00:19:43]:

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And because, I mean, that’s the thing is, like, if they did watch the videos and if they did comment on the videos, like, that experience at work then just becomes so much richer. And it’s like, wow. These are people I would wanna hang out with. Like, this is great. You know? Like, I remember when people would come to, like, my open mic nights when I was, you know, new. And, No. I wasn’t nervous. It was awesome. Like, it made me wanna turn it up because it was like, oh, these are people I know. Like, I’m gonna actually ask them for feedback, so then I’m gonna, You know, this is gonna be great, and, you know, that that’s a cool feeling.

Jason Staats [00:20:18]:

And I don’t know if you had this experience, but the most common Thing people said who knew me from work when they would see this stuff is like, who is that Jason? It was like Ah. Because you came into work with this expectation of, Like, here’s what you’re going to be, and here’s how you be a a boss out of an accounting firm. And then you go do this other thing, and they’re like, who the heck is that person? I’ve never seen them before.

John Garrett [00:20:41]:

Yeah. No. I definitely had that mostly from the other side where I would go to the happy hour or to the after work thing or whatever, And I’d be like, wow. She’s, like, really cool. Like, can you bring her to work, like, on Monday? Because you kinda me. You know, but there’s this other side of you that’s amazing, and and I would argue that that, quote, unquote, other side of you is probably a majority of you. The small you is the one that you’re showing at work because you feel like that’s who you’re supposed to be, and it’s exhausting. And it’s like, no. No. No. Like, That’s a cool you. Like, bring that. It’s got some personality. It’s got some sass. It’s some flavor. Like, bring it. It’s a shame that so many people default to the automatron. You know? I I just imagine like a Chuck E. Cheese, you know, character Stern where it’s just like, you know, it’s like, oh, man. In in this day and age, especially, we can see right through that. Yeah. I mean, in seconds. And it’s it’s sad that that’s the way it is and to hear that that’s, you know, an experience that you had too. So it’s it’s it’s pretty prevalent, you know, out there.

Jason Staats [00:21:48]:

Yeah. We’re totally fixated on the outputs, like, not acknowledging the fact that, like, it’s ultimately the person inside the the machine that is going to, like, Great. Those outputs. And so it’s like you just we kinda shut that side of us off. And some people are more capable of doing that long term than others, I think. But, Like, ultimately, those 2 things are too tightly intertwined to, like, just pretend 1 one side isn’t there.

John Garrett [00:22:11]:

Yeah. And I I mean, I have to believe that at some point, it’s gonna break. Like, it breaks. Like, each person like you said, some people can keep it together longer, but you can just see. I mean, their their eyes, they’re dead inside. You’re like, what is

Jason Staats [00:22:23]:

going on?

John Garrett [00:22:23]:

Like When you

Jason Staats [00:22:24]:

were just telling me before we recorded that, like, all the people that were, like, in your friend group at that firm, like, they’re now lifeguards. They’re now, like, all these Oh,

John Garrett [00:22:31]:

yeah. Yeah.

Jason Staats [00:22:32]:

None of which are accountants, so I think that is people breaking.

John Garrett [00:22:36]:

No. They’re like, but, you know, I’m out. You know? And and it’s amazing how it’s just, you know, what makes you feel alive? And it doesn’t have to become your job. For some people, it can. You and I were fortunate enough to be able to achieve escape velocity And get out. But for most people, it’s it’s not, and that’s totally cool too. I think that that’s the flip side of it is this Hustle culture is it’s gotta be a side hustle. No. It doesn’t. It has to be a side, something you suck at, and that’s great. I mean, for you, that’s what it was. I mean, it was aside something you sucked at, and then you just worked at it and cared enough to get good. Then we’re able to to make that leap, but for people that don’t make the leap, That’s still great. That isn’t the winning. You know? Like, it’s because we still have to have another thing. You know? Like, so

Jason Staats [00:23:22]:

Yeah.

John Garrett [00:23:22]:

It’s important. I I feel like a lot of people get lost in that that hustle mentality.

Jason Staats [00:23:28]:

Well, and, hopefully, the messaging, like, You know, this podcast and, like, we go to conferences and you meet really talented people that run firms who have this mindset of, like, employing an entire person rather than their Work avatar. I think the people I worry about most are the ones who do not get exposed to a positive environment like that, and they are Out of there before they ever have the chance. So, hopefully, people are able to be exposed to more of those types of firms.

John Garrett [00:23:54]:

No. Absolutely. And that leaders care for sure. So that’s great, man. Well, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone who has an and, but they think no one cares because it has nothing to do with my job?

Jason Staats [00:24:05]:

Yeah. Something that’s always stuck with me is, you know, like and I have kids now. This could be family. This could be your dog. It could be whatever. But, 20 years from now, the only people that are gonna remember that I, like, worked late and went the extra mile for those clients and all that stuff are gonna be my kids. So I think you you kinda have to advocate for yourself because nobody else will. And Would, you know, 5 years into the future version of yourself be proud of the decision that you made and and how you spent your time? Our many aspects of what we do is built around, like, being the hero for other people, and that feels really good. But, ultimately, It’s also a real big source of, like, toxicity and can go way, way, way too far. When in reality, like, unfortunately and I have I think I have a healthier perspective on this since leaving the firm. The really unfortunate reality is for most of the clients that we serve and And even the people that work for us, like, we’re a means to an end. We’re how they get the audit done, we’re how they get the tax return done, we’re who signs their paycheck. And that’s not the case with a 100% of them, but, like, 95% of them it is. Yeah. And so it’s really easy to go on to work every day and put the cape on for all of those people When, like, the people that actually want you, like, are they’re at home. Like, they pay the price for that. So just like, yeah, having that, I guess, level of Understanding of an awareness of how you spend your time and who you’re ultimately serving and what their interests are and whether they’re actually aligned with you or whether they just Need you to finish up that audit, please, because we gotta get this, you know, next thing out the door.

John Garrett [00:25:45]:

Right. No. Exactly. And then By peeling back those layers, then those deeper connections, deeper relationships, things become sticky, you know, whether it’s coworkers, clients, things like that. It’s just a richer, fertile ground that you wanna be around.

Jason Staats [00:26:01]:

Especially with people you spend 1,000 and thousands and thousands of hours with like, you spend more time with your coworkers than you do your spouse. Like, imagine, like, going through all that time and only knowing them very surface deep and not, Like, understanding who that person is.

John Garrett [00:26:14]:

Or imagine doing all of that, and then 12 years later, they don’t even remember you. Yeah. Or not even 12 years later, 1 year later. It’s like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That guy. Yeah. Don’t remember his name. It’s crazy. It really is. And we think that, Well, our technical skills are so far superior, they’ll remember. No. They won’t. The human side of you is is what people will remember.

Jason Staats [00:26:38]:

Yeah. Like like, what is life ultimately about if not, like, how we bump into other people and support them and build relationships and all that stuff?

John Garrett [00:26:47]:

Exactly. I love it, man. Well, I feel like it’s only fair that I turn the tables since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning. You already know how to run a podcast, so I will just be in the hot seat here, and thanks for having me on.

Jason Staats [00:27:02]:

Yeah. No. Thanks for being here.

John Garrett [00:27:03]:

I like your intro song, by the way.

Jason Staats [00:27:05]:

I know. Thanks. So you mentioned we did a conference together recently. It was just a ton of fun bridging the gap in Chicago. We got to do a fun little awards dinner.

John Garrett [00:27:15]:

Yeah.

Jason Staats [00:27:15]:

And I got to see their and even through the lens of this podcast, stats. I got to see professional John

John Garrett [00:27:22]:

Oh, boy. Who

Jason Staats [00:27:24]:

is dedicated to his craft. And let me tell you. It was so much more important to you than it was to me that that award event went well that night.

John Garrett [00:27:35]:

Yeah. I think than anyone else in the room, really. But Yeah.

Jason Staats [00:27:40]:

Which is, like, awesome. Like, it’s fantastic. Like, you have this dedication to your craft that, like, this has to go really well. And to be totally honest, like, it was kind of eye opening to me. In fact, I was so inspired after that that I Actually, put together a little song. If you don’t mind, I’ll play this for you.

John Garrett [00:27:57]:

Okay. Here we go.

Jason Staats [00:27:59]:

About that night.

John Garrett [00:28:14]:

Oh my lord.

Jason Staats [00:28:29]:

I think you absolutely made, like, that night and that conference day for a lot of people. Like, that was such a fun event.

John Garrett [00:28:35]:

Well, thank you, man.

Jason Staats [00:28:37]:

To bring us back around to a question, you know, your hand originally was comedy. But as he said, you reached escape the office. So when it comes to comedy and the fact that it’s like, oh, this is not me. This is my identity. I have to make sure this Hey, Jason. Is what John’s about that. Right? Like, I get that. Direct. What then is your end, like like, beyond that when that has been businessified? Right?

John Garrett [00:29:01]:

Yeah. Yeah. No. And that’s a great great question. I mean, there’s also college football has always been a big piece of me. Growing up as a kid, we moved a lot. My dad was in the air force, so I didn’t have an NFL team. We didn’t grow up in a city where, You know, so it was it was just moving a lot. So and my dad loved college football as well, so we’d always watch on Saturdays. And So college football, we’d always go to we lived in the East Coast. We go to the Army Navy games, which are super awesome. Yeah. So college football was a thing. Music has always been a a part ever since Recorder. I never got the solo, so I’m a little angry about this. But, yeah, most people don’t. That’s why it’s a solo, only 1. So music and and college football and And ice cream also counts, as an ant. I’ve I’ve learned that even the simple things are ants. You know, if if it’s something that lights up your soul. If I told you that you could never have ice cream again, like, that’s gonna hurt a little bit. Or or even answering the question of, like, What would you want to do more of? You know? And more tax returns is not high on the list. More case law, more, You know, whatever is you know, it’s but eat more ice cream? Yeah. Definitely. Top 3, hands down. You know? And so yeah. So for me, college football music And ice cream are easily I’m just trying to make my answer as long as your question was is really what I’m doing here. But You got a ways

Jason Staats [00:30:24]:

to go still.

John Garrett [00:30:25]:

You got a ways to go.

Jason Staats [00:30:26]:

Musical interlude here? I you

John Garrett [00:30:27]:

know, I didn’t come prepared. I didn’t do I didn’t know we were supposed to I I didn’t know I it was like a carrot top episode where it’s like bring your own skits, and, like, you just it’s like

Jason Staats [00:30:36]:

I do think, like, there’s a growing number of people, and obviously my end, like, is pretty adjacent to what I actually do, and maybe it’s a cop out. But I I do think there’s a growing number of people who find over the course of their work that, like, they really enjoy community building and coaching and and, like, that’s maybe something that they’re doing on the side initially, and then they find a way to make a business out of that. Do you have any sage wisdom for Those folks as they make that jump where the bad version of that is the thing that you love no longer becomes fun. Right?

John Garrett [00:31:06]:

Man, it’s super hard. It’s super hard because yeah. I mean, like, for me, when I made that jump, now all of a sudden, instead of just doing the shows I wanted to do, Now I have to do shows that, you know, there’s a bar show 2 hours away for $100. Well, I need to go do it because I need to pay rent and have food. So now all of a sudden, you’re you’re having to do things. You’re you’re feeling the pressure of doing that. Now the joy isn’t there as much for sure. And so I think that I would push people, and I’m gonna hold it hold you a little bit accountable as a friend of just, like, there’s something else That’s deeper and just that you know, find that thing that has absolutely nothing to do with it at all. Like, it you know, like, for me, it was comedy and, you know, college football and and music. It’s like these are I mean, like, going to a concert is awesome because it’s it’s being in the audience and experiencing a show in the same way that people got to experience. You know, it’s just different though because it’s it’s music, and it’s a cool thing, but it’s just learning from that and the stage presence and whatever. So that’s a little close, but even then it’s different. And so, you know, it’s it’s just finding those things that that really light you up. Like, we grow up. We have to get straight a’s. You have to have perfect attendance. You have To this and that, you have to pass these exams. You have to first of all, you don’t have to anything. You’d find out later. And second of all, like, For what? Like, what about the thing that’s not perfect? What about the thing that you would get an f in? What about the thing in, But you’ll like it. So as an adult, as long as you have a career and and a job that you’re able to take care of yourself and your family, then With extra time, like, do the thing that makes you happy. Like, it doesn’t have to provide anything. It’s just I enjoy it. And that’s why it’s it’s taking the label off of it even. Instead of calling yourself a runner, just say I enjoy running. Then no one’s asking your Boston marathon time. It’s like, alright. Cool. You enjoy running. Tell me about it. And so I would just tell people is if you’re gonna make that leap, Have something else that brings you joy outside of that. That’s a release. That’s, you know, just a way to to just Make you happy because the joy of that thing is not gonna be as strong anymore.

Jason Staats [00:33:28]:

Yeah. I think we’re almost programmed. Like, as I’m thinking of my kids growing up, like, we’re almost programmed with that as you we go to middle school to do well, To set you up better to high school to do well, to be able to go to college, to get a degree to do well, to get your CPA, to go be successful, and then you’re submerged in work culture where success, like, is framed through the lens of your peers and what success looks like in that little Ecosystem. And you never really escape that, like, until you make the conscious decision to not just be.

John Garrett [00:34:03]:

It’s almost like we’re all on on the playground. Was it the the merry-go-round? That wheel thing that we’ve just run as fast as we can till everyone’s, like, flying off and puking and whatever. And we’re all on that merry-go-round, and almost none of us wanna be on it or especially going that fast, and no one puts their foot out to just be like, yo, Slow down. Like, why are we doing this? Instead, it’s no faster, faster, faster. No one says, hey. Why? Like, why? I remember when I did comedy and lived in New York City, and people were like, oh, I did 7 open mics last night. I’d be like, why? Were they good audiences? Were you learning? Were you Or are you learning bad habits? Were you not actually progressing? Were you not actually getting better? And in just sounding like you were busy doesn’t Impressed me. You know, I did 7 shows at Gotham in front of live like, paying audiences that were awesome. Oh, cool. Tell me about it. But I did 7 open mics in front of 4 people at each one at a bar shows.

Jason Staats [00:34:58]:

Yeah.

John Garrett [00:34:59]:

No. I’m not impressed. I’m actually, like, we should’ve just hung out, and I could’ve helped we could’ve helped each other Just hanging out in each other’s living rooms. You know? Just it’s defining success for what you want it to be as well. And that’s the thing is, you know, like you said, all that Middle school to high school to college to, you know, CPA or whatever your degrees are in, and then you walk in as if you own the place. Like, look at me, CPA. And then they’re like, welcome. We all are too. Like Everybody else.

Jason Staats [00:35:26]:

Yeah. You know? And you’re now at the bottom of the bottom of the totem.

John Garrett [00:35:28]:

Nothing matters. Like, it’s just All the stuff that you thought was so crucial, like, I would I would not even be a functioning adult without these things. Then you walk in, you’re like, oh, well, that doesn’t even make me special. Like, I’m not unique at all. And if you wanna be remembered and wanna be unique, then it’s the human side of you. And it’s the things that you do suck at or that you do not for pay. That’s the cool stuff.

Jason Staats [00:35:54]:

Yeah. That’s what makes you you when you go into the Such a homogenized, you know, work environment. And that’s especially, like, my main beef with bigger firms is you don’t want outliers. Like, they are in the business of, like, plugging you into the system. Right?

John Garrett [00:36:09]:

Yeah. Well, I mean, it does make it harder to manage. I mean, you know, like, if you look at the military, I mean, it’s we get, You know, crew cuts and just, you know, everybody wears the same fatigues and the same everything, and, you know, the only differentiator is your last name and the your rank, And that’s it. Everything else is the same. And so we just take that mentality to everything else in business, and it’s like, well, maybe it works in the military because there’s Certain things that they need to be able to do, but in business, not so. And so it it does make it more difficult to manage treating people individually. But I think in the long term, there’s a stronger ROI there, and it makes just for a better place. That makes the world a better place because you’re you’re you’re dealing with people that are activated. They’re alive as opposed to people that are AI robots or whatever it is. Been fully replaceable when when truly they’re not or they shouldn’t be. But if we treat them that way or if they act that way, then they they are, and that’s really sad To me.

Jason Staats [00:37:10]:

Even running a business, like, even on the client side, like, the client doesn’t want to interface with a machine. Like, that’s, like, that’s not what anybody wants.

John Garrett [00:37:17]:

They want people that also have hobbies and passions and interests or people that get our industry, you know, or whatever it is. I mean, if if you’re making videos on the side And then all of a sudden a client comes in who’s a a movie producer or whatever or makes the video equipment or, Like, you would be like, this is the coolest client ever, and they would go, that you’re the coolest CPA ever because you get the lingo. You get what we do. You appreciate what it is. In a lot of law and consulting and accounting and engineering, I mean, it’s a commodity. I mean, there’s a firm down the street that does the exact same thing. That’s a tough gut punch for a lot of people to understand that, yeah, yeah, I’m not special, technically, but as a human, you are. But for some reason, that’s the thing that we leave outside first and always.

Jason Staats [00:38:06]:

Well, thanks for coming on, John. Where can people find you?

John Garrett [00:38:09]:

This was really great. Really great. What’s your and.com, everybody? They already know. But yeah. But, it was super fun having you be a part of this. So thanks, Jason. And I’ve never had People bring their own sound effects, so this is the next level. Whoever’s the next episode better bring it.

Jason Staats [00:38:24]:

The bar has been set.

John Garrett [00:38:25]:

Yeah. Absolutely. But thanks so much for being a part

Jason Staats [00:38:27]:

Thank you, Don.

John Garrett [00:38:32]:

Yeah. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Jason Taking some silly things or connect with him on social media, check out his YouTube channel and his podcast. Be sure to go to what’s your And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than

Welcome to episode 5 85 of what’s your ‘And’. This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their and Those things above and beyond your technical skills are things that actually differentiates you at work. It’s the answer to the question of who else are you besides the job title. if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award winning book. It’s on Amazon, indigo, Barnes and Noble bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at what’s your and dot com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outsider work passions are so crucially your corporate culture, and I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great views on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right. This voice reading the book, look for what’s your end on audible or wherever you get your audio books. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast. You don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. and this week is no different with my guest, Ritu Singh. She’s the MarTech and marketing operations leader out of PWC’s San Francisco office And now she’s with me here today. Ritu, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on what’s your end.

Ritu Singh:

Thanks, John, for having me.

John Garrett:

Yes. This is gonna be so much fun. And I I have some rapid fire questions that I like to ask people just out of the gate, get to know Ritu on a new level here. So maybe an easy one. Do you have a favorite color?

Ritu Singh:

Orange.

John Garrett:

Orange. Nice. Okay. That’s not very common. I like it. Okay. Alright. How about a least favorite color?

Ritu Singh:

I don’t think I have any of his favorites.

John Garrett:

Okay. Just in case they’re listening, we don’t wanna get them angry. I get it. I get it. No. That’s fair. That’s fair. As a marketing person, it’s unfair for me to to ask that question, really.

Ritu Singh:

Thank you. — one, regardless. Like, I would say maybe Brown.

John Garrett:

Okay. Alright. Yeah. If you had to. Alright. Alright. How about are you more sunrise or sunset?

Ritu Singh:

Sunrise. Definitely.

John Garrett:

Okay. Alright. Alright. Do you have a favorite Disney character?

Ritu Singh:

Minnie Mouse.

John Garrett:

Yeah. Classic. Alright. That’s good. That’s good. More Star Wars or Star Trek?

Ritu Singh:

Actually, neither I’m not into these movies.

John Garrett:

Okay. Fair. Totally fair. Absolutely. No. That totally works. Oh, yeah. This one, you have to answer for sure. Your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Ritu Singh:

Mac. And it is

John Garrett:

Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Alright. How about pens or pencils?

Ritu Singh:

I would say pencils are the pens that had the needle or the point

John Garrett:

Oh, yeah.

Ritu Singh:

They make my handwriting really bad.

John Garrett:

Oh, that’s great. That’s awesome. That’s so funny. because we don’t use them as much anymore, I guess. I love ice cream. So when you get ice cream in a cup or in a cone. Cup. Cup. Yeah. I feel like you get more. I don’t know why.

Ritu Singh:

I would not want additional calories from a cone. But it is nice to them. That is already a whole lot of calories.

John Garrett:

Right. Okay. Alright. There we go. That’s that’s as honest as it gets right there. Do you have a favorite day of the week?

Ritu Singh:

Friday, Friday.

John Garrett:

Friday, Friday, Friday. Here we go. Alright. How about, puzzles, sudoku Crossword? jigsaw puzzle, Wordle, I guess, is the new one?

Ritu Singh:

I would say.

John Garrett:

Sudoku. Yeah. Alright. Alright. That works. Do you have a favorite actor or an actress?

Ritu Singh:

Yes. Since I’m from Indian origin, I have a lot of Indian actors and some non Indian as well. I think, like, in Hollywood, I would say in actors.

John Garrett:

I would say. Oh, okay. Alright. Yeah.

Ritu Singh:

Yeah. I’m on top of my head right now, but in Indian, Amita Bhatchan is people who know him either me.

John Garrett:

Very cool. Alright. Yeah. No. That’s that’s fantastic. This is an important one toilet paper roll over or under.

Ritu Singh:

Over. Over. Like, the non handler.

John Garrett:

Do you flip it around when you’re, like, visiting people?

Ritu Singh:

I don’t, like, yeah, visit their bathroom’s often if I’m visiting them, but if I do, I kind of, like, deal with it, but at my home, it has to be.

John Garrett:

Right. Okay. Alright. There we go. do you prefer more hot or cold?

Ritu Singh:

I would say in between if I can — Yeah.

John Garrett:

Yeah. Yeah. I’ll let I’ll let you have

Ritu Singh:

it. So

Ritu Singh:

—

John Garrett:

Oh, yeah. Food or yeah. No. Absolutely. Tea. Like, yeah. No. I I I

Ritu Singh:

get — Tea hot hot food, hot tea.

John Garrett:

Yeah.

Ritu Singh:

between weather. So if it’s I cannot, like, handle too much particles. Is that the weather part of the, in between?

John Garrett:

Yeah. Yeah. No. That that we’re We got 4 more. Do you have a favorite number?

Ritu Singh:

Fourteen.

John Garrett:

Fourteen. Is there a reason?

Ritu Singh:

My birthday?

John Garrett:

Oh, well, there we go. That’s that’s enough. Like, that’s enough. That works. When it comes to books, do you like the audio version ebook or a real book?

Ritu Singh:

I would say real book. I like to touch see and read through it.

John Garrett:

Yeah. No. I’m the same. I’m the same. Absolutely. How about favorite place you’ve been on vacation?

Ritu Singh:

I have to give it to Peru.

John Garrett:

Oh, very cool. Alright. Did you do the whole Machu Picchu trailer and all

Ritu Singh:

that? Of course, the Machu Picchu on the last day. I didn’t do the most famous incur trail. I did an alternative trail, but I ended up on to be to the 5th day, and it was my birthday. And

Ritu Singh:

—

Ritu Singh:

Oh. — I had done it accordingly. So, yeah, it was amazing.

John Garrett:

That’s very cool. Alright. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Ritu Singh:

Favorite thing I own. I have to say my home.

John Garrett:

Oh, I know.

Ritu Singh:

Yeah. In the big

Ritu Singh:

—

John Garrett:

No. That’s that’s awesome. Very cool. Well, let’s talk dance. And how’d you get started? Was it from you when you were little?

Ritu Singh:

I started very little. I remember the first performance I did was I think I was in 1st grade.

John Garrett:

Okay.

Ritu Singh:

And I I remember everything. Almost everything about it. I remember the costume I wore. I remember the song. I I danced on So, yeah, so I have to say from my 1st grade, I think I was, like, maybe six six years old. Okay.

John Garrett:

Yeah. And is it something that was, like, part of school, or was it like an extra outside of school thing?

Ritu Singh:

It was part of my school. We used to perform. We used to have some extra curricular activities. So, yes, I performed in my school function.

John Garrett:

Yeah. No. That’s that’s fantastic. And then you just kept going because, obviously, you’re still dancing now. So is it Is it something that you’ve stayed with consistently since then?

Ritu Singh:

I actually did not stay consistently with it. I stopped dancing when I finished my bachelor’s and I moved to the US for a very long time. I think that was the longest in my life that I I didn’t dance. I didn’t dance for almost, like, 7, 8 years.

John Garrett:

Oh, wow.

Ritu Singh:

I I thought, you know, like, when you are married and you are working, then the dancing is done. all because I got back into it, you know, after 7 years, but, yes, it was not consistent from way back dancing again.

John Garrett:

Yeah. because I was gonna say, like, that’s very common, you know, where people life happens. You know, you get married. You start working. You know, maybe there’s families, other stuff like that. And And it’s like, you know, for some reason, the the one thing that lights us up the most is the first thing that we shut down and put on the shelf And and, you know, and it’s it’s amazing. And it and so it’s so cool to hear that you got back. What what brought you back to dance?

Ritu Singh:

Yeah. I think just getting in touch with it. So I saw a show, and I absolutely love the dancing and the music. And I didn’t realize that what I had missed because I wasn’t watching these shows. So I watched one of the dance shows, and I was like, you know what? I’m learning this type of dance. I’m getting back into dancing, and then there was no stopping after that.

John Garrett:

That’s so great. And so, like, what’s the difference between Ritu not dancing and then now Ritu dancing again. Do you feel like there’s a difference, especially at work?

Ritu Singh:

A lot of difference at work it really keeps my work life balance correct. So I have something to look forward after an amazing day at work. I have, you know, classes that I teach, items, and I I teach this dance fitness. So a lot of things to look forward to in my evening time. And, of course, like, you get in, you know, you keep in shape. You are when when you’re dancing, you are keeping your body moving. So it really keeps me healthy and also happy.

John Garrett:

No. Which is, I mean, that’s the best, you know, and like sometimes work keeps us happy, but sometimes not. But dance all the time, every time. like, is happy, like, every single time. So that’s so cool to hear that you were able to get back into it, you know, and that you’re thriving so much. with that. That’s really cool. Do you have a performance that you’ve done ever in your life? That’s some of your favorites besides the the one when you were 6? Oh,

Ritu Singh:

I have to give it to my, the all hands performance that I opened the, you know, our all hands with in December of

Ritu Singh:

2022.

Ritu Singh:

Yeah. Amazing experience. I had never thought that I would be doing it for my my form. EWC. Yeah. I would was one of my most favorite performances ever.

John Garrett:

That’s so cool. And and then a lot of coworkers got to see that and people that you’ve never even met. I mean, PWC is huge. I started with them out of out of school myself. So that’s pretty awesome.

Ritu Singh:

My LinkedIn invitation definitely rammed out.

John Garrett:

You’re you’re still digging out of it. I’m sure there’s a but but was there ever a part of you that was like, oh, I shouldn’t share the dancing side of Ritu at work because it has nothing to do with my job?

Ritu Singh:

Actually, never because all my colleagues and my managers they were actually very supportive. In fact, my my previous manager, she when she came to know that this is my hobby and my passion, she asked me to teach classes at our, events, like our, you know, team events. And she used to, put aside, like, 20 minutes for my, my dance and teach that used to be like, a fun activity for our team. So I always got support from IT members. So everyone knew that I’m a dancer as far as my hobby goes, and they me all the while. Yeah.

John Garrett:

Oh, that’s so cool. Like, I mean, I accidentally got out that I did comedy and, you know, I had someone remember me from my first PwC office 12 years after I had left that office. And it was someone I never worked with. I never met. I didn’t even know what he looked like. Anything. And, you know, he said, oh, I know John Garrett. That’s a guy to comedy at night. And it’s like, that’s the part people remember. You know, they’re they’re gonna remember the dancing side of you. Of course, the works out of you is great, but what makes you unique and different, you know, is the dance.

Ritu Singh:

Yep. Definitely.

John Garrett:

Yeah. And and how important do you think it is that that people share these these aunts, you know, these these hobbies and passions outside of work.

Ritu Singh:

I think if they definitely have one that can be shared,

John Garrett:

Right. Well, yeah. Right. because as long as it’s not illegal or right. It’s

Ritu Singh:

—

Ritu Singh:

Yeah. You’re good at it. That keeps you happy and going something outside of work. I think everybody should, 1st of all, follow, right, follow their passion in hobby, which I do see some people like taking, you know, giving priority to other things in life than their hobbies. So people who do give priority, they should definitely share it with colleagues at work, with friends, and family. so that they can show that you know, again, like, what’s your end? So I I totally, like, I relate with it. So so, yeah, they should definitely share.

John Garrett:

Yeah. No. I mean, because I would imagine that once it got out that you like dance and then they asked you, hey. We want you to teach the group how to dance. Like, you know, the dance that you’d and and and it’s like, you know, how how cool is that? Like, I get to do what I love to do. Like, I I love marketing, but I love dance And so I get to show you that and they get to see you super alive and electric and to see them embrace it. And it’s like they know you as a human as opposed to you as a job title. And I love it so much. Yeah. What does that feel like? I guess, from your perspective, to have them embrace you like that.

Ritu Singh:

Very welcoming, and my team is so approachable. They’re welcoming, and, of course, they respect right, your time outside of work, what you do, and who you are as a person decides your title. So that, like, the whole openness about me and me as a dancer and also, like, asking questions on where do I dance? How did I learn it? Like, what specialties I have within dancing? Where have I performed? and all those, like, questions and them embracing the fact that I’m a dancer and being very interested in what I do as a passion was really appreciative. I appreciated my team. My teammates, not only my teammates, but even like beyond my team, right, the entire, you know, community that reached out to me on different panels within PwC, they were congratulating me after the fact. They were asking me what song I danced on. They had never heard about that song before. and really appreciated my dance. So that was like, I I was like, I was thrilled that I did it. I was so appreciative of all the feedback I got so many connections I got to make, and I’m still making on LinkedIn as I mentioned before.

John Garrett:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ritu Singh:

To see other leaders, you know, face to face at such an important meeting that we had.

John Garrett:

No. For sure. And and it’s just so cool to hear that, you know, PWC is embracing that. and, you know, wants to see the human side of you. You know, they didn’t ask you to come and do a presentation on marketing. You know, it was coming dance. like, do your thing, you know, and and that’s so cool. So cool. And I guess have you always been open about sharing dance throughout your career, or was it something where the PwC town hall thing kinda helped blow it open, or was it always through your career? You’ve shared outside of work interest.

Ritu Singh:

Yeah. I think it depends on the relationship you have. I have great relationships at PwC with my my coworkers and with my and them being, you know, interested in what you do and what your passion is also made me, you know, open up myself. I don’t think it has always been the case in my previous jobs or, you know, companies I work for. I maybe some some people knew that I danced, maybe some people didn’t. my my previous job at my. My manager, she knew that was my passion. So, yeah, it depends on the relationships you have at work and then how how, you know, how much you can open up.

John Garrett:

Yeah. No. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, yeah, because I mean, it’s it’s certainly some people get nervous, you know, because it’s like, are you gonna use this against me? Are you gonna judge me for not being as dedicated to my career because I have something else that I also love, and it’s like, that’s crazy. You know, like, it’s just but the things that we tell ourselves are not always positive. You know? And so it’s so cool to hear that you did share and, you know, great things. you know, happened, and which is usually the case, you know, 99.9% of the time, which is great. And I guess, how much is it on the organization to create that space? where people wanna share and how much is it on the individual to maybe just start in a small little circle or or just jump in when the opportunity arises?

Ritu Singh:

Yeah. Actually, both ways, you have to be really interested as I mentioned. Right? And also, like, make people a priority, like, PwC for them of course, clients and people’s priority for them to keep them happy and, you know, keep them up to their level of performance and, you know, so, yeah, so both the the form itself and also, like, individual, like, I really wanted to keep up my passion, my hobby, and didn’t wanna give up because I it makes me so happy and alive. So I I shared it with my team. My my colleagues and, of course, like, the form also really puts their employees first. So it will well.

John Garrett:

Right. No. Absolutely. That is true. Yeah. because, I mean, The organization has to create that space so that you feel safe, but then you also have to then step up and share. Like, no one can make you do that. And and I guess one thing that does come up for a lot of people is, you know, I don’t have time. I got, you know, whatever. And it’s like, how do you make sure that you get that balance to make sure that you that thing that makes you feel alive, as you just said.

Ritu Singh:

Yeah. I believe if it’s a priority for you, you will make time regardless of Right? So you have to prioritize what you need to do. And then my happiness and also, like, making other people happy through my dance will teaching, I’m teaching and sharing this passion with others. Also, what’s important to me, and then I really prioritize that pretty high on my on my life and to do list. So, yeah, so you have to just, like, prioritize what you like to do. It could be anything. And if it’s your hobby, then you spend, you know, take some time out from your daily routine and then and then, of course, spend time on that. So, yeah, so you have to prioritize No.

John Garrett:

For sure. And and it’s it’s so interesting because we think other things become more important. And that’s, like I said earlier, the first thing that we put on the shelf, and it’s like, no. No. No. Like, that’s the most important thing. Like, you know, and then I, for some reason, we all do it where it’s like, no. No. I’ll just put it aside and but then that’s the thing that lights you up, you know, the most. And so it’s it’s just so cool to hear, you know, your journey through all of that. So do you have any, I guess, words of encouragement to anyone listening that might be thinking, you know, I like to dance, but that has nothing to do with my job or no one’s gonna care or whatever.

Ritu Singh:

Yeah. My advice would be to, 1st of all, like, understand. Right? If this is, like, something that you really it really makes you happy. then you should pursue it. Of course, you have to take time outside of your work. Or, you know, at work, you work with priority, but then evenings and weekends. If that’s something that really you wanna do, if it’s like dancing, then you should pursue it because it will not only benefit you mentally, but also an emotionally connection with other people. So definitely take time for it. If it’s something that you were doing when you were young and then you stop for whatever reason, like, you know, the life took over or other priorities to work. And think about getting back to it. You can just watch a video on YouTube, you can maybe take a class, a short class, like a 1 hour class or whatever in your community. And then just see how it feels. And if you like it and if you wanna learn more, then go for it. Like, I I would say, like, you know, if it’s your passion, if you love doing it, then nothing should stop you. You should definitely prioritize that.

John Garrett:

Yeah. I love that so much. That’s so good. So good right there. I mean, so many nuggets in that And like you said, you’d watch a YouTube video. You can just go watch your show. You don’t have to be on Broadway doing this massive production or whatever it is. You know, like, it’s It could be just just a little bit, and it’s a hobby. You know, it’s not it’s not to make money. It’s not to be the best in the world. It’s just I enjoy dancing. Am I good at it? Maybe, maybe not. Am I whatever at it? You know, like, it doesn’t matter. Yeah. I enjoy it. So do it for you. I love that advice. That’s so great.

Ritu Singh:

Absolutely.

John Garrett:

Yeah. So great. Well, before we wrap this up, I feel like it’s only fair that we turn the tables, make this the Ritu Singh podcast, Since I asked you so many questions at the beginning, I’ll open it up. You can ask me

Ritu Singh:

2

John Garrett:

or 3 if you’d like. I’m all yours. If you have any questions to ask me, I feel like it’s only fair that I turn the tables and and and

Ritu Singh:

—

Ritu Singh:

Yes. So, who is your favorite comedian since you did stand up comedy.

John Garrett:

Favorite comedian. Yeah. Probably, I I mean, like, I’m friends with, like, Nate Bergazzi and Ryan Hamilton and Tommy Johnigan are all really funny. Like Nate’s special on Amazon right now is so great. but probably Brian Regan. He’s probably my maybe my all time favorite. I can always pop in on that. Yeah. He’s always good. I mean, Russell Peters definitely makes me laugh. That’s for sure. I don’t always get all the inside jokes, but I can I I get the gist of it.

Ritu Singh:

Yeah. Or, he’s trained in.

John Garrett:

Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Ritu Singh:

Or, like, you know, just like, whoever he’s making fun of.

John Garrett:

Yeah. No. Exactly. Exactly. But he but he makes fun everybody. So it’s like, well, it’s funny all around type of thing. Yeah. For sure.

Ritu Singh:

if this is what you do for your life, like interview people and know there what’s your end.

John Garrett:

I can’t believe it’s my job either. Yeah. This is a small piece of it. The bigger piece is, keynote speaking at conferences. You know, my book, came out a couple of years ago. What’s your end? So that’s out there as well. And then it’s helping organizations to just humanize their workplaces. You know, how do we do this on the regular? You know, the things like PwC’s town hall where you were able to go and perform and you know, why don’t other firms do that or why don’t all the offices of PwC do that? You know, why is it only, you know, once a year, twice a year, whatever it is? every single office should be doing this all the time. You know? And so it’s helping organizations to do little things like that to just build a culture around people’s outside of work. You hired the whole person. So, shine a light on the whole person, not just the work part. You know, and and that’s a big piece of it for sure. And, make sure that people are living their best life as a leader, you make sure that they are because then they’ll do their best work. I mean, dancing Ritu is so much more productive and alive and and happy. than not dancing ritu. even though more hours were spent at work, it yeah. But you’re just better now. You know? And so it’s it’s how do we create a place that’s like that all the time. And so that’s really what the work is. The podcast is just a fun way to share our message because I feel like what’s your end isn’t my message. It’s ours, you know, and there’s a twenty two year old Ritu that needs to hear keep dancing and it’s important and all the young people, you know, to hear that. That’s really what my job is, but I can’t believe it’s my job either. So, you know, it’s it’s how it is.

Ritu Singh:

Which is your favorite place in the world that you have traveled to?

John Garrett:

Oh, wow. Okay. So, man, that’s gonna be I mean, Dubai is pretty amazing. And the Maldives, that was pretty pretty sweet. and you’re just in the middle of the ocean. You can’t see anything. That’s pretty crazy. Costa Rica is pretty nice. Yeah. I’d probably go with those 3 at the top of my head.

Ritu Singh:

I think Dubai and, of course, Costa Rica. Yeah. in cases.

John Garrett:

I mean, Costa Rica is pretty much on par what I expected. I’ve been several times now. But Dubai, I’ve just been once, but Yeah. I was like, it’s so western. Like, I mean, I it easily could be a a city in the US. I mean, I tried to learn some Arabic words when I went just to be nice and and gracious and whatever. And people literally said to me, why are you not speaking English? Like, they they they they all speak English. Like, it was like I think there’s more English in Dubai than in Miami. I’m not sure, but I think so. Like, it’s it’s just but they were all yeah. It was it was great. It’s great experience. And, you know, it’s just cool to see other places, for sure. Yeah. Cool. Well, thank you so much, Ritu, for being a part of what’s your end. This has been so much fun.

Ritu Singh:

Awesome. Thank you.

John Garrett:

Absolutely. And everybody listening if you wanted to see some pictures of Ritu and act or maybe connect with her on social media. Her LinkedIn, be patient with it. She’ll get to you. But be sure to go to what’s your am.com. All the links are there. while you’re on the page, please click that big button to the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Mark Mirsky:

Hi, I’m Mark Marsky, and when I’m not coaching soccer, I’m listening to John Garrett on what’s your end.

John Garrett:

Welcome to episode 583 of what’s your end. This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their and. Those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work. It’s the answer to the question of who else are you beyond the job title. And if you like what the show’s about, be sure to check out the award winning book. It’s on Amazon, indigo, Barnes And Noble, Book Shop, a few other websites. All the links are at what’s your and dot com. The book goes more in-depth with a research behind why these outsider work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon. and more importantly, change in the cultures where they work because of it. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right. This voice reading the book. Look for what’s your end on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every weekend. This week is no different my guest, Mark Murzke. He’s a tax partner with KRD outside of Chicago. And now he’s with me here today. Mark, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on what’s your end.

Mark Mirsky:

Thanks for having me. I’m excited.

John Garrett:

Oh, this is one of my hands too. So this is awesome. This is gonna be super awesome, but I have 17 rapid fire questions get to know Mark on a new level here. So maybe this is an easy one. I don’t know. Favorite color.

Mark Mirsky:

Royal Blue.

John Garrett:

Royal Blue. And there you go. Very specific. Okay.

Mark Mirsky:

Versus sky blue. There’s a reason for that.

John Garrett:

Oh, okay. Alright. What what’s the reason?

Mark Mirsky:

Well, blue has always been a favorite.

John Garrett:

Yeah.

Mark Mirsky:

But sky blue is Manchester City.

John Garrett:

Right. So I don’t like the sky blue. Which comes back to the soccer. There we go. How about a least favorite color? Maybe it’s the sky blue. I would say sky blue

Mark Mirsky:

for sure.

John Garrett:

That works. We answered a 2 in

Mark Mirsky:

1.

John Garrett:

How about puzzles, sudoku, crossword, jigsaw puzzle, or maybe Wordle, don’t know what else is out there.

Mark Mirsky:

I like sudoku. sudoku. I mean, I’m a numbers person. I like them, but it also gets me to just clear my head.

John Garrett:

Yeah. That’s actually how I do my tax returns is Sidokos. Like, it’s like, oh, there’s no 7 here. Let’s put yeah. Why not? Like, what do you want the number to be? I think a lot of people do them that way. I was never in text. That’s why. Oh, is this a fun one? Chocolate or vanilla?

Mark Mirsky:

vanilla, for sure.

John Garrett:

Okay. Alright. There you go. Since you’re outside of Chicago, you guys have trains. So planes, trains, or automobiles.

Mark Mirsky:

I would say trains, but not in the US. I would say European train systems are phenomenal.

John Garrett:

Yeah. They’re nice. super nice.

Mark Mirsky:

It’s fast. And they’re always on time.

John Garrett:

And always on time. Yes. Yep. And quiet. Yeah. No. That yeah. I I’m with you on that one. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Mark Mirsky:

Probably Tom Hanks.

John Garrett:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. He’s — I

Mark Mirsky:

really like Tom Hanks. Just about anything he’s been in, I enjoy.

John Garrett:

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. can back that on for sure. Star Wars or Star Trek,

Mark Mirsky:

for sure.

John Garrett:

Yeah. Me too.

Mark Mirsky:

Yeah. In fact, in my my family is getting into all the ancillary things now on Disney Plus where you don’t we’re going or watching the andors and all these other things. And my son sells sounds me all the new episodes are out of my head. No idea. You know? And they’re they’re still making that stuff. I can’t believe it.

John Garrett:

Exactly. There’s a baby unit. It’s like, what Like I know. Regular Yoda was awesome. Now there’s a baby person that’s crazy. Your computer, more of a PC or a Mac.

Mark Mirsky:

PC.

John Garrett:

PC. Yeah. Me too.

Mark Mirsky:

Yeah. I’m in business. I mean, Max really don’t work as well because so many products on Microsoft products. Right? And so they’re not as compatible. A lot of our clients use Macs. And whenever there’s a problem, I always say it’s just because you’re Mac.

John Garrett:

Right? There you go. There you go. or is this the fun pens or pencils?

Mark Mirsky:

Actually, I’m a pen person. Yeah. I don’t wanna erase things. You you just get it right the first

John Garrett:

time you do it right

Mark Mirsky:

or don’t do it. Exactly.

John Garrett:

Okay. There we go. Actually,

Mark Mirsky:

I usually type things out though, so I don’t do a lot of pen or pencil. And since I have to sign legal documents, it has to be pen.

John Garrett:

Yeah. It has to be pen.

Mark Mirsky:

Yeah. I typically use pen are all some typing stuff on my laptop or computer because I I can’t even read my own handwriting.

John Garrett:

probably should have been a doctor the way that looks.

Mark Mirsky:

That I was. I was premed for 2 years.

John Garrett:

Oh, well, there you go. That’s how you learned it. That’s how you learned it. Yep. That’s awesome. How about ice cream? I’m a huge ice cream junkie. In a cup or in a cone?

Mark Mirsky:

In a cup. Okay. I used to be a cone kid. growing up for the longest time, but now I so I I I try to eat less sugar and less carbs overall. That’s what I’ll say. But for me, ice cream is one of my weaknesses, but if I’m gonna do it, I’ll just get rid of the cone and have a second scoop.

John Garrett:

there you go. I love it. And then I I would use weakness or I just call it an and. It’s an and. Like, I’m passionate about ice cream. It’s an and. But, like, Yeah. No. It’s not a weakness at all. It’s an end. Like, this is this is a dimension of who I am. Like, it’s

Mark Mirsky:

—

John Garrett:

That’s true. — that’s awesome.

Mark Mirsky:

I grew up with it, and we had to have it every day for dessert growing up.

John Garrett:

That’s awesome. How about a favorite day of the week?

Mark Mirsky:

Probably Friday.

John Garrett:

Friday? Yeah.

Mark Mirsky:

Yeah. I I I like the weekends. Although I might stretch it to Thursday and say the weekends start Thursday. Right?

John Garrett:

Thursday afternoon. Alright.

Mark Mirsky:

Which was awesome and that, you know? Right. And summers here, even at our office, we have less work on, you know, with they don’t work as much on Fridays. Yeah. But, yeah, Friday is probably my favorite day because then I know I got some relaxation coming up.

John Garrett:

Yeah. No. That’s awesome. How about a balance sheet or income statement?

Mark Mirsky:

Balance sheet, for sure.

John Garrett:

Okay. can’t hide anything there.

Mark Mirsky:

No. You can’t. I mean, if it and if it reconciles, then I know the profit loss is right. Right? So I I’ve seen so many P and Ls. I can make a profit loss look good. Anybody can. The question is, is it right? Well, if the balance sheets are right, then I know the P and L is right.

John Garrett:

There you go. Okay. Alright. Alright. We got 4 more or 5 more. What was your first concert?

Mark Mirsky:

1st concert was Bon Jovi.

John Garrett:

Oh, yeah. Okay.

Mark Mirsky:

That was back in the eighties.

John Garrett:

Yeah. Very cool. That’s awesome.

Mark Mirsky:

It was a lot of fun, but then the girl I took right afterwards, she dumped me.

John Garrett:

So, no one. That happened to me with Hoodie and the Blowfish And now I can’t listen to Hootie and the Blowfish anymore.

Mark Mirsky:

I still like Von Jovi, though.

John Garrett:

Well, he didn’t go country on you. like, Darius’s record it. There you go. You’re right. You got that. We’re all good. How about a favorite number? 7. 7. Is there a reason?

Mark Mirsky:

Well, I would say so planned. We’ll talk soccer later, but, I played the 7 post college. That’s what I’ll say. Post college And that was actually my Jersey number, growing up with 7. So

Mark Mirsky:

—

John Garrett:

No. I mean, that’s mine as well. Same same reason. That was my Jersey number. How about a book’s audio version ebook or real book?

Mark Mirsky:

You know, this is gonna sound funny. I would say real books for sure but I don’t read. I I read very few books. Okay. Truly. I I don’t because all I do every day is read. Right? I’m reading in tax law that came out yesterday and doing research, and I’m constantly reading. But if I am gonna read, I do enjoy just the hard copy book In fact, I was just in California last week, and I read a book last week. Great book. Of course, I had something to do a sock but we’ll talk about that later.

John Garrett:

No. That’s perfect. 2 more toilet paper roll over or under.

Mark Mirsky:

Okay. So I grew up with it under, but I think over makes more sense.

John Garrett:

Okay.

Mark Mirsky:

That’s what I was saying. I do think over is all good.

John Garrett:

Yeah. Yeah. That works. And the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Mark Mirsky:

Favorite thing I own is my patio.

John Garrett:

accurate. Okay.

Mark Mirsky:

So, yeah, it it it’s a place where I can go relax, read. If I want, I can sun bathe We can entertain. It can hold probably sixty people comfortably. We’ve got a fire pit, a grill. It’s it’s relatively new. And it so it’s not that used. We haven’t had the big parties yet. So it’s coming, though. It’s coming.

John Garrett:

I like it, man. I like it. That’s awesome. Well, let’s talk soccer and especially coaching soccer, but then you played and then coached. So did you just grow up playing soccer?

Mark Mirsky:

So I didn’t start playing till I was about nine or ten years old. And, honestly, I grew up in south side of Chicago, Chicago Heights. and none of my friends, my close friends played soccer. I made friends playing soccer, but our first coach was from Italy spoke very little English, and he knew his stuff, and he was good, and that first fall season, because back then, back in the eighties, Sacker was just a once, you know, it was a one time sport. It wasn’t all year round. Right? So I grew up with this guy coaching me, and he kinda turn me onto the game, and it seemed fun. And it was good, and I can run-in. But then we played in something called the Northwest Indiana Soccer League, and we would lose games like

Mark Mirsky:

8

Mark Mirsky:

to nothing. 7 to 1. 10 to nothing.

John Garrett:

Yeah.

Mark Mirsky:

And then my second year playing and but we would keep coming back trying to learn. Mhmm. Well, that coach left. And then I had some guy’s dad. And, honestly, he came to practices and say, hey,

John Garrett:

go run a lab, guys. You know, he

Mark Mirsky:

was a all guy. Like, American football guy knew nothing about the game. And so we’ve learned from him how, you know, not to coach, I guess, I’d say, but we learned by losing. So we would lose 8, nothing, and then go back and try to mimic the guys that we played against And that’s how we taught ourselves. So until I got to about high school, I didn’t have, like, I was gonna say a real coach.

John Garrett:

Right.

Mark Mirsky:

And by then, those of us that know anything about sports today, by the time you get to high school, it’s too late to start a sport. Yes.

John Garrett:

You know

Mark Mirsky:

what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Like the technique you’re past your prime, you know, 5 through maybe 10 is where you can learn a lot with technique. And beyond that, you either have it or you don’t. So Unfortunately, for me, I it took me forever. So but I did enjoy playing the game even in high school, even though I didn’t have great coaches growing up. My freshman coach was awesome. And he’s the one who actually turned me on to coaching. So when I was actually a sophomore in high school, he called me Mersk. So he said, hey, Mersk. Do you wanna help me coach the freshmen girls? And I’m thinking to myself, you’re asking a sophomore boy if he wants to help with freshman girls. Okay. Yeah. And so I did. You know? But it was a great experience. Honestly, I’ll tell you, He was the best and worst coach I ever had. That’s why

John Garrett:

Okay. Okay.

Mark Mirsky:

that wouldn’t have been Sam in

John Garrett:

this. Right.

Mark Mirsky:

You know, he would call the women’s names or the girl’s names, you know, to You’d

John Garrett:

have to run, like, forever till you’re puking, and it’s like, That’s not. Well, yeah, he would make a

Mark Mirsky:

you can’t do that kind of thing.

John Garrett:

You know what I mean?

Mark Mirsky:

At the same time, the way he got their attention and the respect he commanded from them was tremendous. So I learned both at the same time, but I I helped him all three the rest of my high school career, and I’ve been coaching, honestly, all but 2 years since.

John Garrett:

That’s incredible, man. That’s awesome.

Mark Mirsky:

I love it.

John Garrett:

Yeah. No. That’s great. That’s that’s so cool. Yeah. I mean, I grew up playing soccer and then Like, I I guess when I went to college, like, because I I noted aime, I went to practice with them once because I had some friends that were on the team. And, man, I played 2 touch the entire time because I was they’re so fast, like, so fast. And, like, right as soon as you touch the ball, there’s guy right on you. And you’re like, what And then so it was just like, get rid it was like, keep away almost for me. Then I was like, yeah. You guys are obviously on another level here, but I’ll just be fans. and I’ll grab some team gear on the way out and see you. Like, you know?

Mark Mirsky:

Yeah. T1 is a different level.

John Garrett:

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And it such a great game though and such a great sport where, you know, you don’t have to be the biggest or the fastest or the whatever. I mean, to be a good player, actually, maybe bigger isn’t better. I mean, some of the best players in the world are tiny humans. I mean, and and so it’s cool to see how that’s, manifested in your life like that and and stayed with you from when you were

Mark Mirsky:

10

John Garrett:

to getting just hammered 8 to nothing.

Mark Mirsky:

Yeah. Exactly. I’m still am. You know, it’s funny because when I teach, accountants around the country, I always start out by saying I’m a I’m a coach, right? And I say, I coach football, but real football.

John Garrett:

Right? And then they go around and

Mark Mirsky:

I say, real athletes play soccer. Everybody else plays football.

John Garrett:

There you go. So offense

Mark Mirsky:

to those people that play football, I say it as a joke. In fact, when I thought in, Nebraska, I actually got booed on the stage. first time as a teacher, I’ve ever been booed.

John Garrett:

Nebraska is pretty serious about their football.

Mark Mirsky:

Yes. They are. Found that out the hard way.

John Garrett:

Yeah. They’re they’re very serious about it. Yep. But that’s all they got. You know, like, I mean, there’s no professional sport around. There’s no anything else. There’s corn. Right? There’s a lot of corn. There’s a lot of corn. That’s for sure. But that’s awesome, man. And so how do you make time for soccer in your life. Cause so many people are like, oh, well, I used to like to do this and I can’t anymore or whatever excuses we tell ourselves.

Mark Mirsky:

It’s funny. I, I, I think if there’s something you enjoy, you do make time for it. Right? For, you know, to me, family has always come first. So I’ve been fortunate. My kids have well, I don’t know if they’ll admit it today, but at the time, they wanted me to coach them. Right? And and so I did, and I was lucky enough to be able to coach them all the way up until high school. So one of the years I didn’t coach was when my son was a freshman in high school, at the club level, once you get to a certain age, there are no more parent coaches that have professional paid trainers. And so I didn’t coach that here, but you know what I did? I went to every practice. and I sat there at every practice. Now I had to be off to the side, and I’m not, I’m not, like, I don’t have the style of coaching where you coach every touch, every play, everything, it’s more about taking it in and then bringing it together as a team or you know, like, during a match, I’ll coach the kids on the bench and say, Hey, remember what we talked about in practice? Do you see these 4 out here? See what they’re doing? that’s what we’re talking about, or they’re doing the opposite of what we talked about. Right? So you can learn from others that way versus barking out on the field. because, you know, as a player, all they hear is, anyway, but for me, you know, being a CPA, for a while, I had my own firm. So I will be honest. I left, one of my former firms. It was a good place, but I left one of them. because the work life balance back in the early two thousands for people in our industry it was kinda nonexistent. So in order for me to do it, I just had to leave and go out on my own. So I did that back in about 2003 is when I left there and started my own firm starting in 2004. And when you own your own business, I mean, you think, okay, have all this freedom. Well, it’s quite the opposite. You have a lot less freedom because now your clients control you and you have and then use higher people, and it’s a lot more work with than just being an employee. At the same time, It was a passion. It was a priority, and I was able to spend time with my kids while doing something I loved, which was coaching. So it was like a double whammy, and I got, I got, I got lucky. And all throughout, and everywhere I’ve been, and so currently here at KRD, we do have work life balance. Our partners do have the ability to do things that we have partners who work remote during tax season, you know, and And so we understand that it is something that all of us have to find our end. Right? Everybody does. And If you don’t, I don’t know how you can ever enjoy what you do in your day to day. Because for me, I love what I do every day. I don’t expect everybody to be, you know, a tax freak like myself enjoying what they do.

John Garrett:

Yeah.

Mark Mirsky:

But you should enjoy your work enough where it’s not just a job, you know, and and I think if you can balance things appropriately, it gives you that opportunity. And and I, again, I just feel, I, I, I’ve been very lucky. You know, I, I, I kind of feel like I won the lottery by coming here to Krd by being able to coach my kids, having opportunities to actually coach at the collegiate level. You know what I mean? To be able to do these things, it’s just You put yourself out there, right, and you tell people you want it. And sometimes it comes.

John Garrett:

Yeah. Right. Really? because we’re so permission based. You know, I mean, I I’ve worked with some clients of mine helping them with their culture and work like that. And and they’re like, well, they didn’t say we could, you know, whatever. And it’s like, yeah. But they didn’t say we couldn’t. So just do it. I mean, they they probably didn’t say you could because they didn’t think about it. They’re too busy running the organization to try and think about like, whatever. You know? And and I love how, like, even in your office, I mean, you have flags in Brazil and Argentina flag. You’re wearing a jersey.

Mark Mirsky:

I’ve also got Serbia, Qatar, Mexico, and University of Illinois.

John Garrett:

Oh, there you go. Okay. But but that way then, when somebody comes into your office, those are conversational can openers. I mean, they’re like, what’s with the flags? And you’re like, grab a chair because this is not a quick answer. Like, this is that way then people know who Mark is beyond the tax partner job title, you know, and be good at your job, certainly, but it’s it’s important to have these other other pieces as well.

Mark Mirsky:

It is. Well, But to your question about how do you balance? I I tell my I’m proactive. So I tell my clients up front. Hey, just so you know, I do coach. So for instance, I’m a assistant varsity coach at local high school. So this fall, in fact, actually tomorrow. During summer, we have summer, like, just 6 days a week. It’s not that much time. But in the fall, I will be coaching. And so from about maybe

Mark Mirsky:

2

Mark Mirsky:

until 6, or sometimes a little later, if it’s a game day, I’m out of the office. Well, that’s during normal work hours, which So but I tell my clients my clients understand this. They also know that if they need something, they text me. I can call them in the evening, but I’m also willing to take weekend stuff. but that’s how I balance it. It’s it’s my choice. You know what I mean? So we do have to find balance. You gotta get your you gotta get the work done. Clients are important. and they are very high up the list. To me, family comes first. Probably our staff come second right after that, but then it’s a balance. F. And and to me, it’s gonna be the client in our end. That’s where I put it. You know, it’s gotta be part of what I’m gonna do.

John Garrett:

that, man. And and and having the staff you know, second there, that’s that’s great. Be indeed, that’s how you create those human connections as well is through the ands, you know, whether someone also likes soccer or not, they have something else that they like. And maybe if it is soccer, then, wow, you guys are best friends for no reason.

Mark Mirsky:

It’s so true. It’s so funny. Here’s a good story. So I was teaching for the Illinois CPA Society. She’s, like, 5 years ago, approximately. Yeah. I happened to be on stage, and I I introduced my self as coach Mursky. That’s just everybody calls me coach. Right? So I there is about a 1000 CPAs in the room. and I’m on a stage, which I’m not used to being on a stage, usually. I teach out the same level, you know, because I’m, I’m not used to it. Anyway, talk for 2 hours, tax technical stuff. This guy comes up to me afterwards. And I’m on the podium, and he he says, hey, coach. I have a question for you. He said, who do you like? And I just talked text. I go, like, Excuse me. He he said, who’s your team? And now he had a British accent. So I immediately thought, okay. First of all, I’m I’m an idiot. show to pick up on it right away. But I I told him, I said Manchester United. And then immediately, nobody’s perfect. I said, really, who do you like? He goes, arsenal. And I said, oh, it’s funny you say that my daughter is a huge arsenal fan. And then he said, well, how do the 2 of you live in the same house? one thing led to another. You know what? That next March, during tax season, I literally flew out to, London to go see manu play at arsenal. And this guy got us the tickets.

John Garrett:

That’s incredible, man.

Mark Mirsky:

So my daughter and I did. It was a daddy daughter thing, and it it was just a minute. But it’s all because I I said I enjoy it, you know, and I I told people what my aunt was and that connection occurred.

John Garrett:

Yeah. No. That’s that’s so incredible. Yeah. And he he wasn’t like, hey. Can you come to a tax demo for us? Can you, like, it was Hey, we know you love soccer and these are your teams. Come watch them play. That’s incredible. What an experience, man. That’s awesome. That’s very cool. Very, very cool. And and are there specific things that KRD does to encourage people or maybe you do to encourage people to to share their end or even just say it out loud?

Mark Mirsky:

that’s a good question to to say it out loud. We Well, first of all,

John Garrett:

we — — acknowledge that you have

Mark Mirsky:

1,

John Garrett:

you know, like, type of thing.

Mark Mirsky:

We try to. That’s what I’ll I’ll say this. We make sure that our staff are taking time off. Right? Because you don’t want people getting burnt out. And then when we have our we call them check ins midyear, at that point, that’s when we kinda talk to people about things. It’s it’s informal. It’s not an evaluation. It’s about how are you doing? What’s going on? You know, and and what are you gonna do this year? You know, do you have any vacations planned? What do you enjoy? And that’s when we get to learn we’ll say more one on 1 versus people kind of publishing out there with their end. That being said, when you hear that more than one person have similar interests, we do make sure, hey, did you know so and so also is in the bed too. Right? Whatever it may be. So we, you know, we have mentors here. We have coaches within the firm that help each other, that help the staff as they’re, maturing, growing up. but we encourage we we give a lot of time off. So from a work life balance standpoint, everybody has enough time. to find, figure out, and enjoy their hand. That’s what I’ll say.

John Garrett:

I love that, man. That’s so that’s so great. And it’s it’s like, yeah, when you have that one on one mentor type of session, like, let’s start with your end. Like, I know you love concerts. Let’s talk about it. Like, what was your last concert? And when’s the next one? Cause if you don’t have a next one, you’re not super excited about what’s happening. You know, like, it’s like, no. No. What’s what’s next? Like, let’s plan this out. Like, I wanna make sure that you’re doing things outside of work that you love to do because people forget what lights them up and then they their priorities get upside down and then Yes. They do. Forget that they even like to play soccer at all.

Mark Mirsky:

And then you see it in them too. Like, sometimes at work, they’re totally stressed. They’re they’re they’re short with people and things, you know, they’re not who you know they really are. And it’s because they’re narrow focused. Right? They they forgotten what they enjoy, and they’re not doing those things. And so it is so important at any any company for people to be able to find their end, do it, enjoy it, and never give it up. Right? I mean, to me, that’s probably, you know, the biggest benefit, and this is the selfish side of me coaching, to be fair, is, like, when a kid calls me up 10 years after I’ve coached him and says, hey, coach. Can I ask your opinion? They’re first of all, they’re still calling you coach.

John Garrett:

Right?

Mark Mirsky:

thinking of all, they respect your opinion. You had an impact on their life, you know, and it’s always it’s about their end. It’s about direction and and what I had a kid ask me. He’s like, coach, should I get a master’s? Well, I don’t know. You know, tell me more. turns out yet and another year of eligibility because of COVID. Right? And so it’s gonna cost them, you know, tens of 1000 of dollars to get a master’s degree is, like, is it worth it? I’m like, Honestly, do you love the game of soccer? Yeah. Okay. Well, who cares about money? It’s not about the money. You can pay it off. You’re he’s going into a good profession. He’ll be able mean, how many opportunities are you gonna get to play at the collegiate level? That’s what I told him, you know, and he’s playing, and he’s phenomenal player.

John Garrett:

That’s awesome. No. It’s it’s so cool, man. And and plus the coaching and the the playing even, you know, in a team sport. I mean, that makes you better at your job. especially at a partner level. I mean, you’re able to see people for all their different talents, all their different skill sets, meet them where they’re at, in the same way that you do with the all the players that are on the team. And and you’ve coached freshmen, girls soccer all the way up through collegiate, and, you know, this soccer. So you’ve coached all different kinds, and I’m sure that that makes you a better partner and a better leader at the organization.

Mark Mirsky:

No doubt. No doubt. I I I do believe anyone. And then this is not me saying this is all I look for, but people that have played team sports I will also say that I’ve been in the arts, like band or orchestra, because I was a choir boy in high school.

John Garrett:

So okay.

Mark Mirsky:

Okay. So I can relate It it’s similar to a team sport, depending on the school, but what you get out of it dealing with multiple personalities, dealing with conflict, especially in sports with referees who are good that are bad. In fact, I tell every kid I ever coach. I say, hey. The referee’s gonna be awful. shut up and play the game. Yep. If you’re good at what you do, you don’t allow the referee to make a bad call. Right? That’s the whole thing. I mean, if if if there’s a call and people blame games on a referee, well, what about the rest of the game? Why didn’t you put the ball on the net? Yeah. I mean, that’s not the referee’s fault. Come on. So, again, it’s about taking ownership, right, which in work we all have to do. at every level across the board, but trying to put it together, you know, and looking at systems, most, I won’t say everybody, most businesses have processes. Right? There’s a way to get things in the door, flow it through your business, whatever it may be, and then get it out the door. Right? It could be consulting. It could be manufacturing. It could be anything, but it’s all to me the same. It’s the same, but different. No.

John Garrett:

It is. It’s you’re exercising a muscle outside of work that then when it’s when you’re in the office, you’re like, oh, I do this all the time. It’s more reflex as opposed to having to think it through. It’s, yeah, that unconscious competence, I guess, type of thing where you’re you’re just you’re just accidentally aware of being good at it. you know, you don’t have to think it through because you got all the practice reps done on the soccer field. And so it’s like — That’s true.

Mark Mirsky:

You learn what works and what doesn’t. I mean, that’s the thing. You know? And but but to me, truly, you know, people that interview well will say they have an and. Best way to put it. Right? Think about it. The people that don’t are kind of They might have it, but never expressed it and can’t communicate it effectively.

John Garrett:

Yeah. I need to see these other dimensions to who you are. than just the 4.0 grade point average or whatever it is. You know?

Mark Mirsky:

Exactly. In our business, yeah, you need a lot more than just, book smart. You need some interpersonal skill.

John Garrett:

No. I love it, man. That’s so awesome. So do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe they have an and, but they’re afraid to share it because it has nothing to do with their job.

Mark Mirsky:

I think you gotta do it. I mean, if you have an and it’s imperative. You you’ll never be yourself without doing what you enjoy. And if you have an and You gotta do it. It doesn’t matter what it is. And maybe I should qualify that and say it should probably be legal, but

John Garrett:

Right. Yeah. Legal and not taboo. Absolutely. That’s what I say when I’m speaking about stage is like, well, obviously, you know, it’s not, you know, like selling cocaine is my end. It’s like, well, let’s not lead with that one. Let’s go with something else. Exactly.

Mark Mirsky:

And then culturally, you have to make sure it fits wherever you’re located. Right?

John Garrett:

You could also just say you’re a big Diego maradona fan. You don’t have say you sell cocaine. It’s the same thing. There is.

Mark Mirsky:

Exactly. By the way, I have a picture. I went to the World Cup where he was coaching with him and Massey in the same frame. Yeah. I was able to take that.

John Garrett:

That’s incredible. That’s incredible.

Mark Mirsky:

It’s funny you said that.

John Garrett:

But that’s true, though. Like, yeah, but, you know, as long as it’s legal, you know, have it and share it. I love that. Absolutely. That’s awesome. Well, I feel like it’s only fair since I peppered you with questions at the beginning that we turn the tables We make this the Mark Murstke podcast. I’ll be your guest. Thanks for booking me. I I guess I booked myself. But whatever questions you have for me, I’m in the hot seat. I’m all yours.

Mark Mirsky:

Sure. Alright. These are kind of irrelevant to some of the stuff we’ve talked about, but what are you afraid of?

John Garrett:

Oh, man. That’s a great question. So, like, snakes for sure, because they don’t have legs and you don’t know which way they’re going, and they’re fast. And it’s like, that’s weird to me. So definitely snakes. And I guess just on a deeper level is just, like, not living a fulfilled life, like, just sort of existing and not living, I guess, would probably be something that I would be afraid of, you know, just those kind of regrets sort of a thing that you look back on and you’re like, oh, I should have. And it’s like, oh, no. Just but it’s it’s so hard in the moment to just jump. but or to do whatever, but it’s like, you know, I’d say on a deeper level, that that might be the the answer, but snakes, for sure, they’re weird to me. I don’t know why.

Mark Mirsky:

That’s too funny. Yeah. They freak me out too.

John Garrett:

Right? They just freak me out. It’s like, I don’t know.

Mark Mirsky:

we went to Brazil, and we saw that we we were walking around and we were going to the pool. And all of a sudden, there was this huge Blue, like, bright blue snake. Oh, you know, and it was, like you said, slue

John Garrett:

or anything all over me. I’ll just start Didn’t know what to do. It’s like, they can go in directions

Mark Mirsky:

or not. Exactly.

John Garrett:

It’s like, no. Like, what? Yeah. That’s just weird to me.

Mark Mirsky:

Makes sense. I was gonna ask you how you overcome your fear, but I guess that that leads to my next question, why why podcast?

John Garrett:

Oh, why the podcast? So, honestly, it’s because I look at what’s your hand as our message. It’s a collective. It’s not my message. It’s not I did this and I, whatever. It’s, no, no, we’re all living this. We all have ands. We all have or 92% based on my research, have ands. So, like, let’s blow the doors off this thing, you know, for so long that 8% has bullied the rest of us to believe that we have to act a certain way and behave a certain way and, you know, wear work on our shoulder 247 and you know, and if you have an and, why? And if you do, god forbid, you talk about it. And it’s like, no. No. Like, almost all of us have one. We’re just not talking about it. And so the more that we share it, there’s a twenty two year old me that needs to hear that and a twenty two year old you and a twenty two year old, you know, other people that need to hear this. to see that, like, we’re human beings working a job. We’re not accountants playing a human. It’s it’s no. No. We’re human first and foremost and throughout all of it. And soccer’s gonna be with you forever. You know, what you worked at different places. You had different titles, different roles. Soccer was always an end for you. Always. Technologies changed. you know, the logo and your golf polo has changed. Like, oh, that’s changed, but soccer’s always been there. And it’s important that we have that source of confidence and that identity. And so that’s where the podcast just became with let’s share all of our stories.

Mark Mirsky:

Oh, that’s cool. So what made you leave the business world?

John Garrett:

Yeah. So that was May of

Mark Mirsky:

2005.

John Garrett:

That was my, Bastile day. I’m out of here. Who’s with me? And then I turned around, and I was all all by myself. But it was, kind of this perfect storm, really. of we had this new manager come in from the outside who wasn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer. I’ll just say that to be polite and, like, no one respected him. Like, nobody. there was that. And so I was like, well, I’m gonna quit anyway. And then I also started to get really cool opportunities in the comedy world. was opening for Louis Anderson at some resort casinos. We had just done the Borgata in Atlantic City at, like, a thousand seat theater, stuff like that. And so I was like, well, Let’s give it a go. And so I was able to call some people that lived in LA and that were well established. And they’re like, well, you have a CPA. and you graduate from Notre Dame, you could probably get a job tomorrow. Like, don’t worry about it. So why don’t you just give it a go? And so it was literally just run as fast as you can to achieve escape velocity to get out of the earth’s gravitational pull, if you will, or the good corporate’s gravitational pull. And then I was fortunate enough to be able to break out. Now that being said, I don’t think that you should turn your and into your profession ever because rarely are you good enough to then turn it into a living? That’s why it’s an and. But even when I comedy became my profession, I still had college football and soccer and ice cream and concerts and So I still had other things outside of that that I loved, you know, playing the piano and things that I enjoyed. So even when that becomes your end, or you’re able to weave it into your corporate, you need other things outside of that. I think that’s important. So that’s why it was a perfect storm of all these things happening. at once, and I took the jump. And and then the end of it all was to get Mark Murphy on the podcast that’s the reason why I left corporate in 2005. I was like, I gotta meet this guy. Like,

Mark Mirsky:

18

Mark Mirsky:

years later. money.

John Garrett:

What’s taking you so long? Like, it’s

Mark Mirsky:

—

Mark Mirsky:

Exactly.

John Garrett:

Well, yeah. So that’s that’s really it. Well, good. Awesome question for you. Yeah. Absolutely.

Mark Mirsky:

Can we grab a beer when I come in town?

John Garrett:

Oh, 100%. Absolutely, man. Which I’m excited about who it’s coming up shortly. So, yeah, so when you’re in town, I will Probably not sit through your tax workshop if we’re cool with that. Okay. Okay. Alright. Okay. the the profession and I agreed that I should take my talents elsewhere. So plus I was never a text person anyway. But after the text workshopper before, I’m happy to to do that. So that that’s excellent, man. Well, thank you so much, Mark, for being a part of what you’re in. This is so much fun.

Mark Mirsky:

Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate it. It’s been great, and I’m just happy to be here.

John Garrett:

Everybody listening. If you wanna see some pictures of Mark on idelines or maybe connect with them on social media, be sure to go to what’s your and dot com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 581 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garret. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and,” those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate when you’re at work. It’s the answer to the question of who else are you besides the job title.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every weekend. And this week is no different with my guest Megan Gluth Bohan. She’s the CEO and owner of TRI in Seattle, Washington. And now, she’s with me here today. Megan, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Megan: Thank you very much for having me.

John: This is gonna be so much fun. But right out of the gate, I got 17 rapid fire questions for Megan. Get to know you. Here we go. The is the easy one, I think. Favorite color?

Megan: Purple.

John: Purple. Solid. Solid. How about a least favorite color?

Megan: Brown.

John: Oh, yeah, that’s by far the most popular, least popular color. I don’t even know if that makes sense. No one likes brown. Nobody. How about, ooh, PC or a Mac on your computer?

Megan: Macintosh all the way.

John: Oh, okay. All right. You’re one of the cool kids. All right, I see.

Megan: That’s right. There we go. There we go. I am not. I am not allowed in the store. They asked me to leave. Pens or pencils?

Megan: Pencils.

John: Pencils. Oh, okay. Old school. All right. All right.

Megan: Old school.

John: Yeah. How about ice cream? A huge ice cream junkie. In a cup or in a cone?

Megan: Cone.

John: Cone. Nice. There you go. A little extra sugar.

Megan: That’s right.

John: Do you have a favorite day of the week?

Megan: Mondays.

John: Yeah. Is there a reason?

Megan: I love the beginning of a new week. I feel like it’s a fresh start.

John: Yeah. Absolutely. There you go. How about when you’re on an airplane? Window seat or aisle seat?

Megan: Aisle seat. I have to be able to get up without asking anybody else to let me out.

John: Right. You’re like the gatekeeper. You decide if someone else is getting out.

Megan: I will let everybody out. I just don’t wanna ask permission.

John: Right. Right. There you go. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. Do you have a favorite number?

Megan: 4.

John: Yeah. Wow. Why is that?

Megan: I have no idea. I just have always liked that number.

John: It’s a good number.

Megan: It is.

John: How about books? Audiobook, e-Book, or a real book?

Megan: Any book. But if I had any amount of time or access, I would read an old school— I guess it’s old school now— paper book.

John: Right. Right.

Megan: Yup.

John: The actual physical copy is old school. That’s crazy.

Megan: The physical copy of the book all bent in my hand of like a paperback versus a hardback for that reason.

John: Yeah. Okay. All right. All right. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Megan: Neither.

John: Neither. Fair.

Megan: It’s not my jam.

John: Sure. No, fair. That totally works. Totally works. Ooh, this one has to be your jam. Toilet paper roll over or under?

Megan: You know, it’s funny. I was gonna ask you about that later.

John: Oh, okay. You can. Fair. You can.

Megan: But toilet paper always goes over. If it’s not, then there’s something wrong with you.

John: I love it. Are you the kind that switches it when you’re like at somebody’s—

Megan: I absolutely will. I absolutely will.

John: Love it. That’s so awesome. It’s such a simple thing, but it’s like hilarious to me that— We got four more, I think. Chocolate or vanilla?

Megan: I like a twist. Oh, like a twist

John: Oh, okay. All right.

Megan: Yeah.

John: I’ll let you have it.

Megan: Because it’s the perfect balance of both.

John: Sure. I’ll let you have it. Okay. When it comes to puzzles, Sudoku, crossword, jigsaw puzzle? Wordle, I guess, is a thing.

Megan: Crossword.

John: Crossword.

Megan: Crossword.

John: Okay.

Megan: I’m a New York Times crossword puzzle every day kind of gal.

John: There you go. I don’t hate myself that much to like just not know words. I’m just like, man, I’m an idiot.

Megan: It’s actually super fun. I’ve got the dictionary and all that kind of stuff too.

John: I’m impressed.

Megan: Yeah, I’m into it.

John: No, good for you. Sunrise or sunset?

Megan: Sunrise all the way.

John: Okay. All right.

Megan: I love the early morning.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you’re Pacific time, so you buy in a little extra on that. No, I’m just kidding. It’s still morning. It’s still early.

Megan: It is. It is.

John: How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Megan: You know, I don’t know if I could answer that. I probably am not hip enough to answer that question. I ride along the documentary world a little bit hard, I think. And I wouldn’t even know how to answer that question.

John: Whoever the host of the documentary is, that person.

Megan: That’s 100%. I really like Ken Burns.

John: Ken Burns! I’ll take it. That’s excellent. I love it. That’s a solid answer. That’s the first time I’ve gotten Ken Burns, believe it or not.

Megan: That’s awesome. I’m setting trends here.

John: Absolutely.

Megan: Nerd trends.

John: But I’ll take it. That that should definitely be one. How about a favorite animal, like any animal at all?

Megan: You know what? I think I’m probably fascinated with birds more than a normal human being would be. I don’t have a favorite. I just find them peaceful and fascinating. So, pretty much any bird.

John: And they can fly and they’re like superheroes.

Megan: Yeah. Amazing.

John: And walk. It’s like they’re cheating.

Megan: Exactly.

John: All right. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Megan: My very favorite thing that I have and own is my sauna, believe it or not.

John: Oh, okay.

Megan: I treated myself. I had a sauna put in and it’s become probably my very most like treasured thing. I’m not a big things person. I’d probably define myself as a minimalist, but I love that space very much for a number of reasons.

John: That’s fantastic. Which I think leads into your “ands” a bit. I mean, just the outdoors. Have you always been into the outdoors from growing up as a kid?

Megan: Yeah. So, here’s the wild part. I grew up in the Midwest in northeast Iowa, in a little town in northeast Iowa. And so, climate there is an interesting conundrum. We have about two great days a year. And you really wanna be there for them. And my whole life’s quest now is to go visit my family during one of those two days. That’s a moving target, right? Sometimes you hit it and sometimes you don’t. But you’ve got this winter, which can be oppressively cold. Like we’re talking 30 below or whatever. And then you’ve got the summer, which, again, there’s like that one 12-hour period that’s beautiful and then it’s insanely hot. Really, really humid, like 90% humidity. And then the mosquitoes are like the state bird.

So that said, we were super hardy outdoors people because everybody in this community, for the most part, is involved in some form of agriculture as a way to make a living. And so, even as a kid, the adults in my presence were busy. They were preoccupied. They were occupied. These aren’t jobs. I grew up in town, but also assisting family members on farms and things like that. Like we associated the outdoors with sort of like work, and effort, and a good kind of like rewarding sweat, if that makes sense.

John: No. Absolutely. Yeah.

Megan: And we spent a lot of time as kids. Like we didn’t have money and I don’t— Really, I didn’t know a ton of people who even did. So we spent pretty much all of our time being outside, and doing things outside, and kind of creating our own fun. So, that’s how it started for me. And to this day, I can harness that feeling of what it’s like to come inside from outside. And it’s like that pure feeling is the best way I can describe it. I’ve always liked—

John: The fresh air, the blue skies, and just nature. Just being outside.

Megan: Exactly.

John: Plus, the freedom of it all. Like when you’re a kid especially, it’s like you’re not contained by walls. I mean, you can go as far as you could see. And I mean, the corn fields, and the soybean fields, and all that that you were running through and everything.

Megan: Yeah.

John: Yeah, that’s great.

Megan: Then as I got a little older, then I started to develop like different sort of maybe more intentional hobbies. So I had a family friend who was super into mushroom hunting, and she would take us out, and we’d go wandering through the woods. It’s not like living in the Pacific Northwest where I can be a little more hardcore in hiking ’cause it’s Iowa. I didn’t mean for my voice to drop there. Somebody from the Iowa PR board is gonna call me.

John: They know. I’ve been to Dubuque many times. I’ve been to Des Moines many times. They have the world’s largest truck stop on I-80.

Megan: Yes, yes, they do.

John: And there you go. It’s a tough sell.

Megan: It is a tough sell, but there is something peaceful about that being out there and just wandering around in wooded areas looking for mushrooms, which sort of maybe you never find them. And maybe that wasn’t really the point. If you do, if you enjoy morel mushrooms, it’s no better snack if you’re into that. But mostly, it was just the concept of being outside. And she ended up becoming a real mentor to me in my life. She said to me one Sunday afternoon, she said, this is how you relax, Megan. This right here. A lot of people will sit inside in front of their television set. Don’t do that. This is how you relax. And for whatever reason, that just always stuck with me, probably because it hit something inside of me that was already there, and it was really resonant. From that point forward, it was like she spoke aloud something that I knew. You know what I mean? And that’s been the way I relaxed my whole life, is being outside.

John: That’s awesome. And how important is it to have that relax? I mean, especially when you’re the CEO, and as you work up through, I mean, law school and all this other stuff, like that’s really intense, and busy, and time consuming, and important decisions. Most people would be like, well, just more work. Like why do you have this relax side? Like how important is that to you?

Megan: I think if you are somebody who’s what I would call in a profession of high functioning, however you define that, whatever that is for you— For me, I’m obviously a CEO. And before this, I was an attorney. That’s my level of high functioning. You could be a kindergarten teacher and probably need it three times as much as me.

John: Amen to that. For sure.

Megan: But whatever it is, there’s a certain element of who we are as people that needs to have something fresh happen to us. Fresh air, the wind across your face, the feeling of whatever the environment is. I challenge people. I travel a lot. And in every environment I’m in, I can find some element of the nature there that just happens to be exactly oddly what I need in any given moment. But I think it’s important to do something that expands you as a person and makes you feel small. And I can’t think personally of anything that does that more than literally the ultimate big, which is nature. So I think it’s important for everybody to do that. I think it’s a good ego check. It can blow the cobwebs off your mind.

And I know I’m not alone specifically in the CEO and executive space being a person who says, hey, it’s not until I’m out on a run or a hike, or even if I’m just kind of feeling a little bit weak or lethargic, even a slow walk outside, that some of my best ideas come to me. And I don’t know the exact alchemy for how that happens, but I know that it’s real. And I know other people would say the same thing.

John: That’s so fantastic. And I love that ’cause, I mean, the CEO, you’re at the top. I mean, it’s like I’m the big dog here. Like I’m in charge. And then to be able to take yourself and be small. And like you said, the ultimate small of out in nature and just in the great outdoors, it’s just so refreshing to hear that perspective shift of, you know what, it’s okay to be vulnerable, it’s okay to be not the alpha, it’s okay to not be in charge of everything. It’s more than okay. It’s almost mandatory to have that refresh, I guess, and get those ideas going.

Megan: Uh-huh.

John: Yeah. I love that so much. That’s such a great perspective ’cause even if your hobby’s painting or something else, like even if you’re not good at it, it’s good to be not good at something basically is what I’m hearing.

Megan: Exactly. And to be not in control. I mean, I think the pressure from an executive perspective, I’ll speak it and I think I’m not alone, this sense of having the weight of the world on your shoulders and a very real sense of, at least what I have, stewardship, responsibility, accountability to the people who work for me and the people who rely on my company for their business. That can be heavy. And it’s also true that it’s lonely, right?

John: Yeah, absolutely.

Megan: With more comes more and all of that is true. But I find, oddly enough, like huge comfort in not being in control and being sort of overpowered. And I mean that in like the most generous way. I’ll give you an example. This last weekend, my wife and I were hiking. We actually were in Utah. We went to the top of a peak that was— I think it was 9,600 feet or something like that in elevation. So you finish quite a bit above the tree line. So we’re at the top of this peak and the clouds open up, and it’s the kind of rain that hurts.

John: Yeah. ‘Cause you’re closer to it.

Megan: That’s right.

John: And it’s coming down kind of hard, and the wind is whipping, and your hair is like being ripped out of your head by this wind. And again, it’s not even like the highest place that either of us have stood, but we had this moment where we looked at each other. And we looked around and we were like, oh my gosh, like we need to be mindful of the fact here that we are 100% overpowered in this moment. You’re standing above the tree line. There’s dark thunder clouds rolling in. You’re kind of like in a vulnerable spot. So, what’s the answer? You gotta get down.

John: Yes. Quickly.

Megan: Yeah. The getting down should happen post-haste.

John: Right. Yes.

Megan: But if you move too fast, you’re gonna roll an ankle or whatever. I mean, the last part of this was kind of a scramble across some rock and things like that to get to the top. So it was this interesting thing. I remember having this moment of clarity of being like I have to very slowly get down fast.

John: I love that.

Megan: You know what I mean?

John: Yup.

Megan: And it was like we both were just sort of crab crawling down this thing to just very slowly get down fast. And there’s nothing about it that I can control in any of it except myself. You know what I mean?

John: Yeah.

Megan: Literally watch where your left foot goes, watch where your left hand goes, all of that, and just being very, very intentional about those little, little things. And then the moment of relief, getting to the tree line and kind of tucking yourself in there. Like obviously, then you’re much drier and a little safer I guess, but it felt good. It felt good to not be in control of really anything except myself. And I think that as business leaders, like we need that a lot more than we probably would care to admit, but I think we’re more fed and nourished as leaders in doing that than we know.

John: No, I love that example. That’s so great. That’s so funny of like go down quickly, slowly, or whatever it was. It’s just like that helps put things in perspective then. When you are the CEO and there are big decisions to make that have to be made quickly, you’re able to slow down because you’ve exercised this muscle figuratively in other activities that you’re like, okay, I can do this.

It’s not gonna be chaos or whatever because I’ve done something similar to this before many times, but it’s a such a great perspective to have. And how important it is, do you think, for your people to have outside of work interests or whether it’s outdoors or something else? Like how crucial is that to you?

Megan: It’s essential. Like it’s absolutely 100% essential. I think a lot of people come to the workspace thinking that what their CEO, or boss, or whatnot wants them to have is this like unmitigated, unrelenting dedication to work. And I do want that in some sense. I want you to be into it. I want you to work really, really hard. And I’m not gonna lie, I’m running a for-profit corporation. Like we do have to do that.

John: Right. Yeah.

Megan: But if you have nothing else going on besides that, you’re gonna flame out really, really quickly. And I don’t want that for two reasons. What ends up happening— Somebody described me as a human capitalist ’cause I am. Like I fall in love with the lobsters in the tank. You know what I mean? I named them the Red Lobster. Like what happens with people that come to work at my company is that I believe we’re not a family, but we are a community, and I care for them. And so, when I start to see them burn out, it hurts me in a way. It also hurts our business, which is the primary objective. And I’m very clear on that.

It’s my job to make sure that this is a thriving enterprise. It’s how they pay their bills. It’s how they support their families. And the same is true for me. And the same is true for the companies that rely on us. And so, we all have to take care of ourselves so that we’re not essentially rubbing ourselves to the grindstone. That and I just think like for what? I mean, if you have nothing else going on, then then what are you doing this for? You should enjoy this. But in sort of your words and then what else? Because I think everybody has to have some sort of meaning outside of work, I would hope.

John: And then you’re so right. I mean, if you’re not living your best life, you’re not gonna do your best work.

Megan: Absolutely.

John: And gone are the days where organizations pay you and then we’re good, see you. No. Now, it’s like, hey, are you living your best life? And I hear it from you. It’s like I care about my people living their best life. And if they’re not, then we need to help you to make sure that you’re doing this. ‘Cause if work is eclipsing joy too much, then it’s not good for anybody. That’s such a great perspective to have that I wish more people would. I wish that was more the default of just care like really at the end of the day.

Megan: I think it’s there, but I think sometimes we get confused as CEOs. Like we have a lot of pressures too.

John: Oh, yeah.

Megan: And you know this. Like maybe the care gets eclipsed by the shareholders, or the bank, or whatever your external pressure du jour is. I think care is always there, but I think we have a responsibility as leaders to like protect that and nourish it too, and make sure that we’re not getting out so far ahead of our skis that then we crumble under that too.

John: Yeah. And lead by example as you are, which is really cool to hear. And have you always shared your “ands” through your career or is it something where, well, now you’re at the top, I’m able to type of thing? Or is it something that you’ve always been open about of like this is Megan, take it or leave it type of thing?

Megan: I think I’ve always been really transparent and really authentic, and probably before I knew that I shouldn’t do, you know what I mean?

John: No, same. Like I did it on accident. You asked me what I did. I told you I didn’t know I was supposed to say nothing.

Megan: Yes. It’s interesting because I read a book once by an author. Her name is Glennon Doyle. I don’t know if you know her, but she was talking about being in a space where somebody asked— And I’m gonna butcher this. But somebody asked the question like how are you doing? And she answered honestly. And then she looked around at everybody’s faces and she was like, oh, we’re not doing that here. It resonated with me because I was like I’m that person who will be like, oh my gosh, did you see the sunrise this morning? Or whatever. And then be like, oh my gosh, we’re not doing that here. And that’s okay. Like it’s okay to meet people exactly where they’re at. And if they’re not gonna do that, that’s okay. I can play in that realm, but I’m not gonna create a space at my own company where we’re not doing that here.

John: Exactly.

Megan: Does that make sense?

John: It’s the opposite. It’s a space where we are doing it. And if you’re not,—

Megan: That’s right.

John: …then what’s going on?

Megan: You won’t fit in.

John: Yeah. No. Amen. And that’s so great to, you know, now that you are in charge, it’s like, well, now we can make it what we want and let’s make it what it should have always been. ‘Cause I truly believe that those kind of environments, people thrive, it’s better for everyone. It’s a little harder to manage ’cause now you’re managing individuals as opposed to you can’t hammer everyone flat, but the reward is so much greater on that effort. So it’s cool to hear that— It’s a real example. I’m not like a Harvard case study make-believe guy. It’s like, no, no, this is real and it works.

Megan: It is real. You’re right. And the truth is it’s a lot more profitable that way. Again, you cannot do well in your role and say I don’t care about the bottom line and I just want people to feel good.

John: No, no, you’ll be out of business in 2 weeks. I’m like, yeah.

Megan: So I care very much about that. But one of the things too that I think is super important to recognize is it’s okay for your job to feed your “and.” It’s okay for you to wanna be a person who is profitable. It is okay for you to be an employee who wants that next bonus, who likes creating more wealth for yourself, whatever that is. And we do a fair amount of that here too where we take the shame out of wanting to be successful too because it is both “and.” You should want all that. And you should have moments where none of that really matters.

John: Yeah, I love that.

Megan: You know?

John: Yeah. I love how you said it earlier. Like what are we doing this for? You know, at the end of the day, is it collecting dollars? ‘Cause then at the end, like what do you use this for? Like what are we doing this for? Like just to count them? Like that’s weird. No, no. Like we wanna be up on the top of a mountain, and we wanna be just scuba diving. We wanna be just watching birds and being like how do you do that and why can’t I? Like we want all the little things that matter, and it makes teams better. And you actually know the people that work with you as opposed to just their job titles, which is fantastic. So do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe is like, you know, I’ve got a hobby, but no one caress ’cause it has nothing to do with my job?

Megan: I would just tell everybody about your hobby. I would tell ’em anyway. You know what? You’re gonna find somebody that it lands on. And I think that that is sort of the same words of encouragement that I even in this present moment give myself, which is you have to show up and be authentically who you are because you might not be for everyone, but you will be for someone. And if you don’t get honest about who you are, you will miss that someone who needs you. And I would just encourage anybody just to say it. I don’t know why we don’t do more of that.

I think we’re missing some connection there when we do, but you’re here for some reason. And in every interaction, someone needs something from you, and you need something from them, and you cannot access that if you’re timid hiding in a corner. And again, I don’t say that from a position of judgment or having it all figured out. This is my life’s quest to push myself constantly to continuously do that. So I say that as a fellow traveler on the road with everybody else, but I think it’s desperately important, especially in today’s day and age. We’re missing like authentic connection.

John: Very much so. It’s that surface level kind of nonsense where how are you? Fine, fine, man. And it’s like, no, really what’s up? Like how are you doing? Or the what’d you do this weekend? And you know, I’d be like, well, I did a comedy show. And then they’re like, wait, you did what? And I was like, well, oh, I wasn’t supposed to say that part. I didn’t realize. And then all of a sudden, now the whole office knows. That’s the kind of thing though. But now, people remember me, and we work too hard to not be remembered. Like come on now, like leave your thumbprint on something here. Like make a mark.

Megan: Yeah. For sure. And more importantly, there’s some person sitting in the back corner quietly like connecting with you who will come up and ask to be at a comedy show next time and then you’ve done it, right? You’ve done the thing. You’ve connected.

John: No. Exactly. Exactly. And that’s why we’re here, is that human connection. And it’s not happening over sharing Excel macros or whatever the latest law, whatever nonsense is. It’s over genuine what actually lights you up. And sometimes it’s work, but sometimes work doesn’t light me up. But hiking lights me up all the time or whatever it is. Whatever your “and” is. So, lean into that more. So I love that. That’s so great. So great. Well, I feel like before we wrap this up, I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, so it’s only fair that we turn the tables, put me in the hot seat. We make this the Megan podcast and let it rip. So I’m all yours. Whatever you got for me, ask away.

Megan: All right. Well, I’m gonna reverse your question on you ’cause this is how I tell who a person is. Does the toilet paper go over the top or underneath?

John: Yeah, it’s definitely over. Absolutely over.

Megan: Okay.

John: I mean, the patent is over, although I did hear that the reason why they did the patent this way is because you use more of it. And so, it encourages you to use more so then they sell more, which I completely believe in a capitalist society that they’re like, no, no, no, no. I mean, that’s why they sell you baking soda and tell you to pour it in the drain. It’s all that stuff, but I just think a lot of people—

Megan: But also, we all know that if it’s underneath, you’re a psychopath.

John: Right. Well, there’s that too. Or a cat person I found out also from doing the podcast asking so many people.

Megan: Oh, sure.

John: But I think that’s the same. I mean, if you’re a cat person, you’re also a psychopath. So, either way.

Megan: Could be. Could be.

Megan: It’s the same. I’m not gonna comment. I already bagged on Iowa and I’m gonna have a mob after me for that.

John: Those Iowa cat ladies are gonna come at you.

Megan: They’re coming strong.

John: They are strong. They are strong. They’re hardy. They’re hardy. They’ll get you.

Megan: All right. Dill pickles or sweet?

John: That’s good. I’ll go dill. I think it goes on more things and can also standalone.

Yeah, I think I’ll go dill.

Megan: All right. Are you a control freak or not? Is it an automatic or a stick shift?

John: Oh, well, the car I own is an automatic because it’s impossible to find manuals anymore, but it is fun to drive manuals on occasion. It depends on the purpose, but I think that manual’s a little more fun ’cause then you can control it a little bit more. It’s a little less breaking, a little more like, whatever, let’s see what this thing’s got type of thing. You don’t have to shift in the range. No, you can ride that gear a little bit longer. Like it’s a little fun with it.

Megan: All right. And final question, if you had to name in just your mind, your experience, your life experience, the single most important quality for somebody who leads, what would you say it is?

John: Wow. I guess vulnerability. And that like kind of encompasses authenticity and encompasses the sense of humor. It encompasses genuineness. It encompasses not having to be the alpha and know everything all the time. I would probably say vulnerability. I mean, a little tip of the hat to Brené Brown as well because it just makes people want to follow you instead of have to follow you. And so, you’re an actual leader instead of a manager type of difference. So that’s what I would say. And it shows up in all those different ways, so whatever that is to each person, which is cool. So, yeah. And then you’re certainly showing vulnerability when you’re on the top of a mountain. That’s for sure. It’s like here we go. This is it. Like here we go.

Megan: Maybe idiotically vulnerable in some places, right?

John: You could choose your adverb before it. Like it’s cool. Like whatever.

Megan: Read the weather report lady.

John: Right? Well, I mean, I live in Colorado and I hear about these fourteener people. And they have to start at like 4 a.m. and get going because at 2 or 3 in the afternoon, lightning comes, and you’re the only thing that’s taller than 2 feet. So you’re getting struck. And so, yeah, you’re up there and then it’s like, all right, and then you gotta run back down. And I’m like, you know, I’m just gonna look at the pictures. We’re good. Like I don’t need to do that.

Megan: You’re like I got the Nat Geo app. I’m solid.

John: Pretty much. Yeah. Like I’m good. Like I’ll do other stupid stuff. But you know, don’t get me wrong. Like I’m certainly not living in a bubble, but I’m like I got my own stupid stuff to do. Not that one. This has been so much fun, Megan. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”?

Megan: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

John: Absolutely. And everybody, if you wanna see some pictures of Megan in her outdoor spaces or connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to check out the book. So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 579 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and,” those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work. It’s the answer to the question of who else are you besides the job title.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. It was so kind of the Independent Press Awards to name it a distinguished favorite. And it goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, writing such nice reviews on Amazon, which if you haven’t done so, please do. It’s super important, and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Emily Ackerman. She’s the director of business development at LGT in Dallas, Texas. And now, she’s with me here today. Emily, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Emily: Thanks for having me.

John: Oh, this is gonna be so much fun. It’s gonna be a blast. I’ve seen the posts on LinkedIn and everywhere. And I’m just like, yes, this is gonna be awesome. But I have 27 rapid fire questions though.

Emily: Let’s do it.

John: Get to know Emily. All right, you’re ready. You’re ready. Here we go. This is a fun one. I like this one. Socks or shoes?

Emily: Shoes. I collect shoes ’cause if you’re at a store, clothing might not always fit, but I’m always a size 6 in shoes.

John: Oh, there you go. All right. That’s a good point. I never thought about it that way, but you’re right. All right. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Emily: Oh, God, that makes me so sad ’cause my favorite actor just based on talent has totally been canceled. I love Kevin Spacey.

John: Oh, yeah.

Emily: If you’re going based on attraction,—

John: Totally. Absolutely.

John: No, absolutely. No. As an actor, he absolutely— That’s totally fine. Like we can separate that. I mean, there’s plenty of comedians that I think are amazing comedians that we are supposed to not— No, no. As an actor, as a comedian, great.

Emily: Oh, he’s my favorite.

John: Yeah. No, for sure. For sure. How about a favorite color?

Emily: Orange.

John: Orange. That’s been canceled. I just can’t. No, I’m just kidding.

Emily: All shades of it. So, even like hinting of red, if it’s burnt bright. I love orange. It makes me happy. It’s loud. I love it.

John: There we go. All right. That’s awesome. How about a least favorite?

Emily: I find, even though I’m wearing it, I don’t like very neon yellow.

John: Oh, okay.

Emily: It’s just not for me.

John: Yeah, yeah.

Emily: Personally.

John: It’s like it’s trying to like be orange, but it’s not. It’s like, nah, nah, you’re not. Know your place.

Emily: Correct. Yeah.

John: How about chocolate or vanilla?

Emily: Vanilla. I’m actually the weirdo that if you say to me like what’s your least favorite food, I get so many looks that I don’t like chocolate or super sweet anything. And I’m known for picking the worst dessert. So if it’s not like a chocolate sundae, a brownie, like a caramel nut thing or anything, I’m getting the key lime pie. So I get the worst desserts compared to everyone else at the table. So I will always pick vanilla over chocolate.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so funny. That’s hilarious. Yeah. You’re like the fruit salad. No. Whatever.

Emily: Yes.

John: Like I’ll just have— Yeah. It’s like, yeah.

Emily: A lemon bar.

John: Right? That’s hilarious. That’s awesome. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, a jigsaw puzzle?

Emily: I’m down with all of them. I have to give it to my mom ’cause she’s a crossword puzzle whiz. She can do the ones for all the days of the week of the New York Times.

John: Oh, wow.

Emily: So I try. I’m better at just like the actual puzzles of like Paris like you do at the dining room table.

John: Yeah, exactly. The jigsaw. There you go. Like here’s the picture on the box. Make that with these pizzas. How about— this an important one— toilet paper roll over or under?

Emily: Over.

John: Over. Yeah. No, absolutely. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Emily: Star Wars all day every day. 4, 5, and 6. The classics.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I haven’t seen anything since because I haven’t heard great things, and it makes me nervous, and I don’t wanna ruin it.

Emily: Same. I just like the classics. I don’t care. A New Hope is wonderful. Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi, the good stuff.

John: Exactly. Yeah. No, same. Same. How about your computer? Are you PC or a Mac?

Emily: I have a Mac at home, but all of my jobs have PCs. And so, when I go to actually open up my Mac at home, I forgot how to do little things like copy and paste So I’m now a PC girl.

John: Oh, wow. We’ve converted you. Okay. All right.

Emily: I’ve been converted for sure.

John: All right. Ooh, this a fun one. Pens or pencils?

Emily: Pens, but it has to be a certain kind.

I’m left-handed. So if you’re a lefty like me, you understand the smear and the smudge that gets on your hand. So if it’s like a ballpoint pen, I’m usually fine. But pencil, forget it. I’ll have the gray smear all over my hand.

John: Yeah. I had a Calculus professor my freshman year of college that was left-handed. And it was back in the day when you would hand write. He had like the overhead projector with the scrolling. So with his right hand, he’d be scrolling as he is writing left-hand. And it’s like, dude, you’re just smearing everything you’re saying.

Emily: Everywhere. Oh, yeah.

John: It’s like this is worthless. The struggle is real, for sure. How about a favorite day of the week?

Emily: My mood always increases every day of the week. I love Fridays just because it’s wrapping up the week. Everyone’s in a pretty darn good mood. You got Saturday the next day. So Mondays, I’m usually like, ugh, dreading this. Tuesday, it’s like, all right, I’m a little better. Wednesdays are, all right, half point of the week. Thursdays, I love that we are almost done. And Fridays are we’re here. I actually can rest tomorrow. And it’s not like Sunday where it’s like, oh, I work tomorrow. No, Fridays are the best.

John: Yeah. Okay. No, I could I hear that for sure. How about oceans or mountains?

Emily: Ooh, I was just talking about this with someone today. I’m definitely a mountain girl personally. I love the beach too, don’t get me wrong. I have skin like a baby pig. So I just can’t be in the sun for that long. Now, if you’re giving me the best of both worlds, that’s where somewhere like a California comes into play where you got that mountain and the beach. But I was just a couple weeks ago in Salt Lake City. Yeah, I was there for a convention, but it’s like, oh, the mountains are so beautiful. Or whenever you go to Colorado or anywhere where there’s actually mountains, I love it.

John: No, for sure. Yeah. ‘Cause, I mean, I live in Colorado and then you see ’em. You just walk outside and they’re right there.

Emily: You’re spoiled.

John: Yeah. No, exactly. You do get spoiled.

Emily: It’s my screen saver on my laptop.

John: Okay. All right. There you go. Yeah. How about a favorite number?

Emily: 8.

John: Is there a reason?

Emily: I just like the symmetry of it. No real reason. I just like how it looks.

John: Okay. No, I love it. How about your first concert?

Emily: My first concert was actually Sting and the Police with my mother. I was very little for that. And then I was 10 years old. It was my first summer at Sleepaway Camp, so it’s not my first concert, but number two, I remember throwing an absolute fit because when you’re a kid at Sleepaway Camp, the last thing you wanna do is be pulled away, especially if you have a camp boyfriend.

John: Yeah.

Emily: So I was throwing a fit, losing my mind. And they go you’re gonna thank us later, just shut it. And they took me to Simon and Garfunkel’s last concert, which was—

John: Oh, my Lord.

Emily: …pretty cool. That was right after seeing The Police.

John: That’s wild. Those are legends. That’s awesome. Very cool. How about when it comes to books? Audio version, e-Book or a real book?

Emily: Ooh. I personally like being a little old school and holding and reading a book. I’m the underliner. I fold pages. But I’m not gonna lie, to kill time if I’m on a walk or exercising around, I’ve gotten more into the audio books just ’cause you can’t be that girl holding a book and walking for like 3 miles, but I still like actually holding a book.

John: Okay. Yeah, no, I can hear you on that. Do you have a favorite sports team?

Emily: Well, it’s been a great 20 years. I am a New England Patriots fan that lives in Dallas, Texas.

John: Oh, wow. Okay. Wow. Those are two very obnoxious fandoms that you’re in the middle of.

Emily: Well, mom’s side is all— We are the Jewish community of Birmingham, Alabama. So for college, roll tide.

John: Oh, my Lord.

Emily: And my college didn’t have football, so that was my team. And I’m not just saying I’m a fan girl. That’s where my family all goes.

John: Yeah.

Emily: And then my dad’s whole family’s from either Rhode Island or Massachusetts, Connecticut area. And so, my whole life with him, it was the Red Sox, the Bruins, the Celtics, and the Patriots. So the first 10 years of my life, we didn’t win anything all.

John: Oh, you did not.

Emily: And all of a sudden, the early 2000s— I mean, it’s been a great 20 years. And then the theme of COVID was confused Patriots fans still find themselves cheering on Tom Brady in Tampa Bay.

John: Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s hilarious. That sounds like an onion headline.

Emily: So, that’s my favorite team. But when you live in Dallas, even if you root for them or not, you gotta give the Mavs credit for actually bringing this city a win in the last 30 years. And so, yeah.

John: Okay. All right. No, I’ll take it. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Emily: Oh, God, it’s gotta be my two St. Bernards.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Emily: I’m obsessed with them. No one messes with the little lady with big dogs. I love my dogs. Their names are Davy and Sully. But in terms of possessions that are not actual mammals, call me old school again, I just love having like those really old family photos from like the 1800s or early 1900s of your family. I treasure those. Those are my favorite just ’cause you see them every day. They’re on your wall.

John: That’s so cool that you have them. I mean, you know that they—

I mean, luckily in our family, on one side of my family anyway, we’ve gotten a lot passed down as well. And it’s crazy to look at them and just be like, what, this is amazing. I mean, before electricity or before whatever, you’re just like—

Emily: For sure.

John: Their first automobile and you’re like, what?

Emily: Oh, yeah, it’s all still preserved. I mean, yeah, I have favorite things like I like certain pillows or like vases in my house, and I like the dining room table and chairs that I have. But like, yeah, those are my favorite possessions just ’cause they’re timeless.

John: That’s awesome. And then one day, the pictures of you with the dogs will be part of that collection in the future.

Emily: They’re perfect. They’re delicious.

John: There you go. I love it. Well, let’s talk singing and how did this get started? Was it at camp or where did this happen?

Emily: You know, I think it all started from like a DNA standpoint. My grandma, my dad’s mom, she was a Broadway actress.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Emily: And so, she was the principal in Grease and the original Yenta in Fiddler on the Roof.

John: Holy cow.

Emily: So coming from like being in theater and being on a stage, it comes from her. My parents are both vocally challenged.

John: Me too.

Emily: I think it all just kind of started— You probably have this too where every now and then, a new song will come out on the radio and you hear the guy or the girl singer. And you think to yourself, I’m actually a lot better than these people. I was a competitive tennis player my whole life. So if you were thinking like, oh, I did vocal lessons and vocal training my whole life, no, I really didn’t. I wanted to do sports mostly, and I just knew I was really good at singing. And I went to public school up until 7th grade. 1st through 6th grade. I was always pushed into choir. And it’s more just I’d rather sing than have to learn how to play the guitar or the piano. I’m now kicking myself for that.

But the school I went to was an Orthodox Jewish high school. So in just the Jewish tradition for like the super religious where I was in school, they didn’t have choir or anything like that because women aren’t actually allowed to be singing in front of the men. So I didn’t have a lot of that at school, but I have a lot of friends of mine that are musicians. They play guitar, they would jam on the weekends or after school, and I just kind of hooked up with them in high school. And that’s when other people started telling me, oh, you’re actually really good.

And then I went to college. And when you go to college in the year 2008 when no one is hiring for pay, you have to get creative and find a legal way to make money because internships wouldn’t do it. And then I had a couple of college friends that just lived in my dorm room. One of them is now a big shot on Broadway too, and he does voiceover work for like Big Mouth and Sesame Street. But just linked up with them and I would play and sing with them. And when you’re in college making $700 on tip, you think you’re so rich.

John: Right? Right.

Emily: And then I don’t know. I never had a lot of vocal training, and I don’t think it’s really a trauma thing from growing up here. I didn’t really want it to be like a known thing. When you’re in BD, like me, when you’re in sales, you love the spotlight. I love attention, don’t get me wrong, but I don’t wanna be like dinner table talk.

John: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Emily: And so, growing up, I just kind of kept it with my friends and just my really close network, not even really even my parents or like my really core group. And then moving back to Dallas, all those people that I used to jam with in high school, they no longer lived here. And then getting into the business world, I remember hearing about a group in town called BYO, which stands for Bring Your Own. So, that’s musical instruments or your Voice. It’s a group of people in the business community, whether you’re a business owner, a CFO, whether you are a lawyer or CPA, a wealth advisor, it doesn’t matter. You network with the different members. And then once a month, if you’re available, you form miniature little jam bands with the members. And so, I got into that group right before COVID started. And my last performance was February 2020 until recently when I got back into it again.

But I just remember being a little kiddo like singing IN the shower or being 16 and driving in my car. And actually, you know you’re not cocky when you’re actually good. And it’s one of those where it’s like I actually don’t think I’m that bad. And then when you actually do sing in front of people and they have a response, like they’re actually not making this up, you’re actually pretty good, oh, you love it. I love theater. I love being on a stage. I’m the weirdo that actually likes giving presentations and speaking, but I understand why people wanna be famous musicians ’cause you get to do what you like to do all the time. And watching the crowd’s reaction, whether it’s their jaws dropping or whether they’re like throwing their hands in the air, oh, you crave for it.

John: There’s an energy. Yeah.

Emily: Oh, yeah.

John: I mean, I love going to concerts. I mean, that’s easily one of my “ands” for sure.

Emily: Same.

John: It’s an experience. There’s an energy like we’re all in. And to be the driver of that as the lead singer,—

Emily: Oh, yeah.

John: …you’re the puppet master now.

Emily: Oh, yeah. And I’m 4’11”. I’m a little in stature girl, and I’ve got a very big voice. And yeah, I also grew up listening to the stuff that my parents like, which is classic rock, whether it’s from the ’50s, ’60s, ’70s, ’80s, ’90s today. I just remember being a little kid, and I’m the only girl of a bunch of guy cousins. So my generation, when all the girls were listening to Britney Spears or Christina Aguilera, I was listening to like Nirvana, Audioslave, Pearl Jam.

John: There you go.

Emily: Yeah! I’ve always liked rock, and grunge, and metal. My favorite band is Tool.

John: Oh, wow.

Emily: Perfect Circle.

John: Okay. Stone Temple Pilots. So, like anything like that. I still live in that decade. I love the ’80s. I love the ’70s. Even tonight, speaking of concerts, I’m going to Blink 182.

Emily: Oh, yes, there you go. Yeah. And pre-sober STP. When they sobered up, it got weird. I don’t know why, which is sad. But man, they were so good too. But that’s interesting how you said like ’cause you joined pre-COVID and then obviously COVID happened. And do you feel that like the singing Emily, having singing as your “and’ is different than the Emily where singing had to be on the shelf for a couple of years?

Emily: No, I kind of get to live out an alter ego a little bit ’cause I guess if you were to ask me like if you could have any job in the world where money, time, degree, anything, none of that mattered, what would you do, I would love to be a rock and roll musician. I would love it. The reason I don’t want to actually do that is I am a grandma. I wake up really early and I go to bed really early. And so, this whole like why don’t you sing on the weekends doing like the weddings or the Bar and Bat Mitzvahs, it’s like I wanna be in bed when they’re getting started.

John: Yeah. I gotta take a nap for like 4 hours if you need to be up till 10. Like it’s like, what are you, crazy? Yeah, no, that’s for sure. Because it’s just a part of you that comes alive. And to ask you to never sing again is crazy. And so, that’s the thing that you nurture and you keep going, and that that matters.

Emily: Oh, yeah. And when you find people that like that same kind of music as you, it’s not every day that I find another 33-year-old female that likes this kind of music, so I collect these humans over the years that just like music and I think the what’s your and is I just love music, going to concerts. There’s a lost art ’cause back in the day I found it very romantic to make people playlists or CDs.

John: Oh, yeah, sure. Burn the CD. Yeah.

Emily: Oh, it was such a romantic gesture, but I still love it. So I get really jazzed on like a Monday when Spotify has that Discover Weekly. Oh, it’s like with friends in the business world. It’s like make new friends, but keep the old. I definitely still live in the grunge era. But every now and then, I’ll come across a new musician or a new song, and I love it. I’m ADD with music too, so it’s not just the rock and the grunge. It’s everything. And so, oh yeah, if I could be a famous rock and roll musician, if I could still maintain my privacy of life like getting groceries or going out to eat.

John: Right. Yeah. There’s a lot of that that goes with it as well. Yeah. I love it though ’cause, I mean, it’s a part of you that’s really who you are. Your job title is one thing, but there’s a human behind that. And that human loves music, and concerts, and singing. And that’s always there no matter what organization you’re working with, no matter what your job title is. That singing and music is always, always, always there as a part of you.

Emily: Oh, yeah. And that’s why I love what your show’s all about because no one cares about like the company you’re working at or in my case at a CPA firm. People aren’t gonna remember the tax attorney who did for them a couple years ago or the audit you just did. They’re gonna remember if you took them to an Our Lady Peace and Bush concert.

John: Now, we’re talking. Yeah.

Emily: That concert was a few weeks ago. It’s the best when you know every song and you’re—

John: I didn’t know Bush was touring again. That’s great.

Emily: They’re epic. Yeah, they’re still excellent.

John: Yeah. I saw them when they were brand new, like brand new. Maybe first concert they ever did after their album came out in St. Louis at a Point Fest. It was like a radio station, kind of all day festival thing. And they were at the end after Toad the Wet Sprocket went.

Emily: Fun!

John: And then at the end, they were like, surprise! Bush just flew in. And we’re like, what? And like, yeah, it was crazy.

Emily: Oh, yeah.

Emily: Because even with networking, like sales is just like dating. And so, the way I look at it like dating is if I meet someone out in the community and they’re just as interested in music or talk music like I do, I mean, I’m getting to the point now where say there’s a prospective client or someone that I wanna treat, I mean, there’s one concert coming to Dallas in October. I’m sure I’ll find someone that wants to go with me. I tend to go alone if no one wants to go, but I saw that Depeche Mode is coming to town. I’m sure I can find someone to go with me. And if not family, then like definitely in the business community.

John: Yeah, I’m sure I could fly in. It sounds like a business expense.

Emily: I wanna see them.

John: Yeah.

And how is it when you’re able to marry that “and” with work? How magical is that?

Emily: Oh, it’s the best. That’s when it’s actually electric. Like a date, when you find out that people are just as into music as you are right away, the work talk, you get it out of the way really quickly, and then you get to know people. And then kind of like that second and third date after that first date, you’re like, wow, I wanna go out with this person again. And that could be as simple as they like Tool just as much as I do or anything that Maynard does or, oh my God, they’re going to Metallica too in a couple… Oh, my God. And you just wanna keep hanging out with them and talking with them. And that’s when the real authentic stuff comes out.

I tend to do business development very differently from a lot of my peers in the market. And just in general, I’ll talk religion, politics, sex, drugs, rock and roll with everyone ’cause I wanna just get to know you”’cause I don’t care if you’re at Haynes and Boone now or if you’re at Jackson Walker and Kirkland. You’re still an estate planning lawyer, but I wanna get to know you. People work with who they like. Again, it’s just like dating. I know a lot of people don’t have my music taste. But when I find people that do, it’s just collecting more friends and concert buddies.

John: I love that. And then business happens where if you go into it with business, business, business, eh, maybe not. But if you go into it with I wanna get to know you as a human and then we click, well, like this is gonna be awesome. Buckle up everybody.

Emily: Oh, yeah.

John: I love that. That’s so cool. And how important do you think it is that people have an “and,” whatever it is? I mean, provided it’s legal and not taboo of course. Like there’s that.

Emily: Everyone needs to have something that they’re passionate about. And the way that I look at it is Monday through Friday, canceling out people that work on the weekends. Monday through Friday, let’s say 8 to 5, you’re with your coworkers more than your own family and friends. And then that free time that you have left in the day, you wanna spend it with your family or friends. So when you do have free time, you need to do things that bring you joy that you like. You need to be constantly curious. So for me, I definitely have those old hobbies that I love to do, which is I like tennis, I love boxing.

John: Oh, wow.

Emily: So I’m the weirdo that likes actually working out, but I have to do that to just set the tone for my day. I love cooking, I love gardening, but I’m a curious person that likes different hobbies. I’ll try anything. And if I get into it, I get very into it. And it’s things that calm me down. It’s things that get me energized. A new thing that I wanna start doing, which is kind of a segue like boxing is, I would love to learn how to do like Krav Maga or like pinch someone’s wrist and make them fall. I don’t know. That sounds cool.

John: I had someone on the podcast who did Krav Maga and also a tiny, tiny woman and would just like grab my pinky and I’d be on the ground crying like a baby or whatever.

Emily: Exactly. So, stuff like that. I tend to be a very curious person and enjoy keeping myself busy. It’s better to be busy than bored. And so, I try telling my own team that when you are doing things that make you happy and the passion just oozes out, people are just drawn to you, whatever that is. If that means—

John: Exactly.

Emily: …volunteering for a not-for-profit, whether that means you’re a painter, whether that means you are into pickleball, which is all the rage, people need to find hobbies. And if it’s fitness related, if it’s creative related, whatever that is, you need to find something. I mean, there’s some people that enjoy just fostering dogs. Whatever that is, you need to find it. And there’s something for everyone. And if you can’t get creative on what that thing is, then start with things that you like to do in your home. Like for me, people find cooking to be a big chore and a big burden. It actually forces me to be really creative. I’m in a great profession for me. But deep down, I’m really into things that would utilize my hands and getting my hands dirty, so like gardening, cooking, pottery. I like that stuff ’cause it’s creative. You’re making something. And I’ll open up my fridge. I’m not a recipe girl. I’m gonna say, all right, I’ve got basil, rhubarb, ground beef, and chili sauce. What am I gonna make?

John: Yeah. Right? There you go. Let’s see what happens.

Emily: Yeah.

John: No, I love it. And then there’s also an end result there ’cause in BD, like maybe the business comes, but maybe it’s 2 years, 5 years from now, like I don’t know.

Emily: Oh, yeah.

John: Where when you’re making dinner, we’re having dinner in like a couple hours or less. So there’s that satisfaction from I just made something and I can see it right now today. Where at work, sometimes in your role, it’s gonna take some time possibly. And so, this way, you’re able to get satisfaction sooner than—

Emily: Oh, yeah.

John: …work-wise. And I love that though where everyone’s got something. I mean, there’s something that lights you up.

Emily: Everyone’s got something and no one should be embarrassed about what that thing is. If anything, if you have something obscure and strange, strange as in like—

John: Unique.

Emily: Yeah. I haven’t met anyone that does fencing. I would love to, but like that stuff is really cool. Or if you do competitive horseback riding, cool. Like it’s those things that people remember. They could care less about like what you do with your ideal client. But if I meet someone that’s into fencing and I then connect a few weeks down the road with someone that also does fencing, that’s an easy commonality.

John: Absolutely.

Emily: It’s an easy introduction.

John: Yeah. And even though you don’t do fencing, you remember that and then you ask them about it ’cause it’s like—

Emily: That’d be pretty cool.

John: …wow. Like that’s an—

John: Yeah. Yeah, right. Or you show up with like a foil and you just like— And they’re like, oh my gosh, or you get like the little sword from your drink and you’re like, is this what we do is this? And they’re like, get outta here, like we’re done talking.

Emily: Yeah. But no, I love it. I love it. That’s so awesome. So do you have any words of encouragement to anyone that maybe they have an “and,” but they’re like no one at work’s gonna care ’cause it has nothing to do with my job?

Emily: I think the older people get people just need to not care as much. I take that with my singing stuff because I had a very funky grade. A lot of really rude people. Mean, mean, mean. And I just didn’t wanna be talked about even though I knew I was good. And I think just as you get older, people don’t care. And if anything, I missed out because I think they would’ve said I was pretty good.

John: You’re judging in your own head for them. And it’s like, no, no, let them judge you, and you’re good. So, why not?

Emily: And everyone’s hobbies are all unique and that’s what makes people interesting. Again, I love learning about different things that make other people curious because I find the profession I’m in pretty darn boring, accounting.

John: Sure.

Emily: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John: Yeah, it’s not creative on purpose.

Emily: Correct. And so, when you meet other people that may be that they’re in the ranching space or one of my partners has family in Australia, they like to go to Australia, if one person is also into volunteering with animal rescue, that’s their things. That’s what I’ll remember about them more so the actual work.

John: Yeah. And that’s what I realized too, like from my work is, you know, I was public accounting and then industry. And I worked at so many clients and with so many different people. And I don’t remember almost any of them because I didn’t actually know their “and.” I didn’t know who they were as people. I knew their job titles, but that’s so forgettable. So forgettable. And the thing that makes you stand out is not your technical skills. It’s your human side. And it’s the first thing that we hide, and the first thing that we leave outside, and the first thing that we tell ourselves no one cares about. And it’s like, no, that’s the only thing.

Emily: That’s the cool part.

John: That’s the only thing.

Emily: And that’s why I’m pretty colorful when I’m meeting people offhand ’cause people are usually so stiff, so closed off, and I’d rather just be completely me. Take it or leave it. You either really like it or you don’t. And that’s fine. But I mean, I’m not shy about anything. I will push the barriers on what is probably considered okay to talk about. But if people don’t talk and learn about each other, the beauty is every single person is different whether I’m learning about a different hobby, musician, whether I’m learning about a place that I should be traveling to, a place that I should go try for dinner, things to do in Colorado when I’m up there in August and, hey, reading the news. I mean, the world’s a little crazy right now, but like you have to talk about it.

John: Yeah. No. What else are we doing here? You know, what are we here for? Create that connection. I love it. That’s so awesome. Well, this has been great, but I feel like since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, it’s only fair that we turn the tables. We make this the Emily Ackerman podcast. Your dreams have come true. Thanks for having me on. So I’m all yours. Whatever questions you have for me, I’m on the hot seat.

Emily: I’m putting you on the spot. What’s your favorite “and” of the moment?

John: My personal favorite, I’m getting back into playing the piano more.

John: Oh.

Emily: So I did growing up and then we moved, and the new music teacher wanted to be all classical music and all that. And I wanted to be— I was playing like the theme song of The Cheers, and Pink Panther, and stuff like that. And then now it’s classical. In junior high, like you don’t wanna be playing classical music. And so, I stopped and then picked it up here and there at the piano that I grew up playing here. And so, it’s great ’cause there’s the internet, so I can just go on and, you know, you wanna hear The Police song, great, let’s get the music, whatever you wanna play. And then they have different levels of the different kinds of music. So it’s been cool to get back into it for sure.

Emily: Now, since you’re also a music guy, if you were put on the spotlight now to do karaoke, what song would you sing?

John: Oh, man, I am not a good singer. I mean, even in church, like old ladies turn around, they’re like, you know, God still loves you if you lip synch. It’s bad. It’s bad. I can play musical instruments. I can hear music. I know music really well. Just for some reason that coming out of my voice is not my strong suit. So I would probably go with something that’s more entertaining and funny, like a Bust a Move from like the old school or just like something that’s a little more silly, funny, kind of rap-ish so you don’t have to really—

You can have rhythm.

Emily: So, Baby Come Back.

John: Yeah, yeah. Or something like that. Yeah. So then it’s just silly as opposed to an actual vocal like Michael Bublé or something like— No, we’re not— I can’t. I’m not gonna try and do that. That’s for sure.

Emily: So, another question I love asking people are— I’m asking you a question before the question. Have you heard of the book or seen the movie Eat, Pray, love?

John: Yes.

Emily: So, you know the premise where—

John: Yes.

Emily: …quits her job for a year. Again, money and all that does not matter for—

John: I choose eating. Is that the question? Which one of the three? No, no, I’m just teasing.

Emily: Well, if you had to live in three different places for 4 months, so a full year, and it’s more just country, like you’re not leaving that country, where would you live your three places for a year and you had all the money, so that’s not a factor?

John: Absolutely. I mean, they’re all places I’ve been.

Emily: Nothing new?

John: Well, I mean, that’s just what comes to mind. But you know, something new. Well, I mean, I’ve never been to Asia, so I don’t know. Maybe like in Indonesia or something like that. I guess Bali’s, maybe a little more Australia, New Zealand. But you know, something along those lines. That would be interesting. Yeah. Okay, let’s go new places. I like that. Maybe India just because—

Emily: Wow.

John: …that’s so different and see what that’s like. Yeah, those are two like really out of my comfort zones, so then I’d probably come back to something a little more, I don’t know, like Italy or something like that where I can just like eat all the food. I would probably go to Italy last so then I could just eat all the food that I haven’t been eating for the last 8 months and then just like—

Emily: For sure.

John: …get back to body weight. But that’s a really good question. That’s really good. I like that because, of course, I went to like Costa Rica, or Dubai, or places I’ve been that are all great and fun, but it’s like, well, yeah, why not? Or the Azores. I used to live in the Azores growing up for a few years.

Emily: What?

John: Yeah. My dad was in the military, so that’d be kind of a cool place to go back and visit for sure. But to live for 4 months would be kind of fun.

Emily: Oh, that’d be wild.

John: Just to go back and see what that is. Yeah. But yeah, you got me thinking. I might need to do two of these Eat, Pray, Love trips.

Emily: Right.

Emily: But that’s so good. So good. Well, thank you so much, Emily, for being a part of What’s You’re “And”? This has been really fun.

Emily: Well, thank you for having me. This has been fun.

John: Yeah. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Emily in action or connect with her on social media, I’m telling you, she’s got videos of her singing and it’s amazing. Be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to check out the book. So, thanks again for subscribing to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 577 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and,” those things above and beyond your technical skills, things that actually differentiate you at work. It’s the answer to the question of who else are you besides the job title.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Rani Puranik. She’s the executive vice president, global CFO for Worldwide Oil Field Machine, Inc. out of Houston, Texas, and the author of the book, Seven Letters to My Daughters: Light Lessons of Love, Leadership, and Legacy. And now, she’s with me here today. Rani, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Rani: Hey, John. Lovely being here.

John: This is gonna be so much fun. I’m excited to have you be a part of this. And I do have some rapid fire questions. Get to know Rani right out of the gate here. Let’s just find out. Maybe start with an easy one, I guess. Favorite color?

Rani: White.

John: White. Okay. Solid. I’ll take it. I’ll take it. All right.

Rani: Because it’s a blend of all colors. You know, the color wheel.

John: That’s exactly it. Exactly. It’s all the colors. How about a least favorite color?

Rani: Least favorite? I don’t have one.

John: Oh, just in case they’re listening and we don’t want ’em to get angry. Right? All right. All right. Fair enough. How about are you sunrise or sunset?

Rani: Oh, rise.

John: Wow. Okay. All right. Apparently, it’s up by the time I get up, so I’m like I guess it’s been here all long. I don’t know. I’ll take your word for it. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Rani: Favorite actor? Matthew McConaughey, of course, for the looks, but you know.

John: Yeah. Well, he’s a Texan. There you go.

Rani: He’s a Texan. There you go. There’s some more to that. Actress, Anne Hathaway.

John: Oh, nice. Very good choices. Absolutely. This is an important one. Toilet paper roll, is it go over or under?

Rani: Oh, gosh. You know, women like it over. Come on.

John: Right. No, it’s all over. Yeah.

Rani: Sideways. Let’s just go sideways. How about that?

John: Just standing on top of the tank in the back.

Rani: There we go

John: There we go. All right. As long as it’s there. There you go.

Rani: Accessible. How about that?

John: Accessible, that’s the best one I’ve gotten so far. That’s great. Accessible. How about a favorite Disney character?

Rani: Oh, gosh. Winnie the Pooh. He’s my Zen master.

John: Yes.

Rani: All-time Zen Master.

John: Yes. That’s a great choice. Absolutely. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Rani: Sudoku and I mean expert level Sudoku in 10 minutes flat.

John: Wow, okay.

Rani: Yeah.

John: That’s impressive. Where like they give you like one number and then you have to do all of them.

Rani: Right? You’re like kind of really guessing. You get too wrong, but you kind of cheat a little bit and then you kind of go from there.

John: Exactly. That’s how I do my tax returns. It’s exactly the same. No, no, I’m teasing. Just kidding, IRS. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Rani: Just Stars.

John: Oh, oh, that’s good. I like it.

Rani: Just Stars.

John: I like that answer actually. That’s really good. Your computer, are you a PC or a Mac?

Rani: Hmm, Apple. Yeah.

John: Apple. Yeah. All right. How about— Ooh, heels or flats?

Rani: Flats. All the way flats. I put heels in my bag only when I have to perform or I’ve got a speaking whatever, but flats all day long.

John: Right. There you go. Me too actually. So how about ice cream? I’m a huge ice cream junkie. In a cup or in a cone?

Rani: Oh gosh, cone.

John: Oh, okay.

Rani: A cup just in case, you know. You know how they do it with a cone with a cup on top or whatever.

John: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

Rani: That way around.

John: Yeah, you could talk ’em into both. There you go. I do the same thing because you can get more in a cup definitely. How about a favorite animal? Any animal at all.

Rani: The eagle.

John: Eagle. Nice. Okay.

Rani: Yeah.

John: Very good.

Rani: Yeah.

John: Yeah. Oh, this is fun. Just you got the CFO. Balance sheet or income statement?

Rani: Oh, income statement. Keeps me on track.

John: Right. That’s what most people know, like yeah. Most people don’t know balance sheet. I agree. It’s income statement. What’s the bottom number?

Rani: Well, a balance sheet even kind of hide a little bit in the balance sheet. Income statement is like this is what it is.

John: Yeah. It is true. That is the number. Four more. Prefer more hot or cold?

Rani: Warm.

John: Yeah, warm.

John: You’re like, you know what, neither, I’m in the middle. No, no, I agree. I agree. Yeah. Which I don’t know how Houston, woo. Yeah. Goodness.

Rani: Yeah. I know. You love humidity. Warm. I’m okay with that.

John: Yeah. Okay. All right. All right. Do you have a favorite number?

Rani: 9.

John: 9. Is there a reason?

Rani: It just looks pretty to me.

John: Yeah. No. It’s good. That’s all the reason you need right there.

Rani: Well, here’s the other part. So math and kind of you need a number sense of math when you were a kid, but 9 just— It just brings it back to some. 9, it’s neither here nor there.

John: There you go. Yeah. No, I like it. How about when it comes to books? You like audiobook, e-Book, or a real book?

Rani: Audio.

John: Audio.

Rani: I’m a multitasker.

John: There you go. Plus, you can do double speed I’m learning.

Rani: Yeah, sometimes.

John: Well, depending on who’s the reader, I guess. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Rani: Right.

John: And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Rani: My pair of very comfy shoes.

John: Oh, okay. Right.

Rani: I’ll tell you why. Because my feet are very important to me. I used to be a dancer like for 15 years. So anything that gives my toes and my heels comfort, I’m like, yes, I can walk the day.

John: Right. Because there were so many years of not, I would imagine.

Rani: Yeah. Dance barefoot, so yeah.

John: Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Well, that leans right into your “and” of singing and dance, and how did you get started with this?

Rani: Absolutely. So I’ve always been passionate about singing, John. Didn’t even ever know about it. Even when I was like a 3-year-old, my mom would say, you know, Ronnie, stop singing. I’d be humming. You’re stumping to together. My favorite song growing up was like the title song of Sesame Street. Sunny days…

John: Oh, yeah.

Rani: And I just go from there. So what I realized is singing and then my mom— Of course, I was raised in Houston, Texas. I was classically trained partially in Houston, Texas, later on in India. But that was just my time to connect with, I say, the universe, God, whatever. Just the spiritual celestial existence. So for me, singing was that. Singing was a connection. And I used to sing for like 6 to 8 hours a day. I kid you not.

John: Wow.

Rani: Indian classical requires quite a bit of rigor, quite a bit of just practice because there really is a science behind it.

Rani: I started performing when I was pretty young. I would say between 11, 14. 17, I started kind of going up the ladder, if you will. So, singing was a big deal for me, just my passion point. So first 17 years of my life, I lived in Houston, Texas. Next 17 years of my life, I lived in India. And the reason that brought me to India were twofold. I wanted to continue learning to sing from a right guru, but then I had an arranged marriage. That arranged marriage led me to live there for 17 years. And what happened at that point is I was part of a joint family. You can imagine there’s no way I was gonna be able to sing and practice the way I did singing. And then I had my first daughter when I was 21. I was married at 19, daughter at 21. And I finished my college in India too.

So in that process, when my daughter went to school, I was like, oh my God, now what can I do? ‘Cause singing kind of got put on the back burner. I just couldn’t do it anymore. I was part of a joint family, which is common in India. And the one thing I didn’t have sort of in my back pocket was all these dance skills ’cause when I was in the United States, I learned modern, I learned ballet. I was part of this Indian folk dance. We were competitive dancers, all of that. And that was my way to get into her school and just kind of be around with her. Not being a helicopter parent, I’m not that, but just to know that I could be around her ’cause India was new for me.

One thing led to the next. And I realized that dance could be utilized as a very powerful tool to help girls kind of similar to me voice who they are, what they are, what they’re fearful of, and what they love to be. Just to express. And culturally, being verbal is not really accepted in a place like India. So, dance became nonverbal way of communicating and really honing into your strength. That was powerful, John. That was so powerful. So then, dance became my second love. It still is actually. Dance is my second love. Well, people who see me would probably say that’s not true because I talk with my hands, my feet. My face is very animated if anyone sees me. So, dance.

John: Dance. Yeah.

Rani: And here’s the thing, creativity. At the end of the day, even if I’m running yes, a multinational company, we’ll get to that story in a second, but it’s the creative process of how you can take nothing and build it into something, which just fascinates me. You can take one note or you can take one step and create a complete composition out of it. That just inspires me.

John: Yeah. And it’s from inside you. And I love that, that connection to source, universe, God, divine.

No one’s ever said that about accounting, engineering, IT, tech, oil. Like, you know, it’s like, no, this is my connection to the divine. It’s like, no, it’s not. That’s your job, and you’re good at it, and you love it and all of that, but that’s a deeper thing of like dance and singing. Like that’s your core. And I love that description, the way that you described it. I mean, that’s so perfect ’cause it’s true. I mean, that’s the thing that you’ve been doing all of your life. It’s inside you. And the work side of you is a suit that you put on, but then you take it off. But the dance and the singing, you can’t take this off. Like it’s inside me. Look, I can’t get it out.

Rani: It’s inside me. And then I go back and say— And people who know me from my dance and singing world, they’re like, you do what now? And you’re successful in what now? Like yeah, oil and gas industry, like the most driest industry that you can ever think about. Honestly, I just take a step back and go, well, why do I wake up in the morning? What’s motivating me? Because clearly, it’s not seemingly as creative as the arts, right? But here it is. It’s about the people. When I would sing, and yes, I would be connected completely, but the reaction I would get from an audience was very interactive. Their eyes would shine or I knew that I was talking to them or something was being received by them.

Same thing in dance. It was about people. Somehow they left the auditorium, or they left the class, or there was an interaction that was just so much more unplanned and so much at a higher level than any expectation. That motivates me. So it was about the people. I run the business the same way for me. The success isn’t about me. Oh my God, no. No one person can do this. It’s teams. It’s people. It’s what are you good at? How can I help you fill the gap in to know who you can be, where you are today, and continue to help you moving forward? So for me, that’s the creative process.

John: Yeah. I love that. You know, the skills that come from singing and dance definitely bleed into life and work. And that’s such a great way to think about it of just connecting with other humans through song, through dance, and then through work. And you’re not dancing in the halls maybe, but you’re bringing that thought and that skill. In a way, your dance happens at work. I mean, one department’s dance with another department, I mean in a figurative sense, I guess.

Rani: So maybe I can explain a little bit how I see this ’cause you are so right. Even when I’m walking down the hall, people are like, Rani, it’s like you’re dancing. But here’s what the truth for me feels like. When I dance, or we’re moving, or we’re breathing, I always say, as long as you’re breathing, you’re dancing. What does that mean? I’m connected to what I have going on internally with my external environment. That’s a dance ’cause there’s a communication, there’s an interaction, there’s a dialog that’s being exchanged non-verbally. So even when I’m in a boardroom, there’s a non-verbal exchange. There is a dance going on.

And guess what? That communication is at such a higher level. I understand flow at that point. I’m still connected, John. I’m still connected. So many times when I’m in a boardroom or I am in a meeting and I go in with a framework thinking I want to address certain topic, but reading the room, which is called awareness happens and then there is flow. I will tell you there has been so many multiple times where I am listening to the words coming out of my mouth because I’m connected in a different way. And I still say that this goes back to my art, sort of artistic and creative self. It’s all rooted in that.

John: No, I love it so much. You know, the song and the dance, no one told you through your education and through your MBA and everything like to go sing and dance ’cause it will make you a better VP and CFO.

Rani: Better leader.

John: But it does. It straight up does. Like these outside of work hobbies and passions matter. And I love how you’re able to recognize how much it does affect you in a leadership role and makes you better at your job. It just straight up does.

Rani: It straight up does. So strongly that I believe in this, and I’ll just kind of throw it out there. So hopefully, it all goes through, we will have our own school here in Houston, Texas. We already own and operate a school in India, which my mom started about 20 years ago. And we’re trying to start one here in Houston, which is based in not just— Everyone talks about steam, science, technology, engineering, arts, and math. John, I’m pulling the A out of steam and putting it on the forefront. I’m saying we want to be an A STEM school, is the arts because arts is the creativity. Arts allows you to use the tools provided by S-T-E-M. Yeah. Otherwise, STEM is— They’re great tools. They’re awesome processes and pathways. But if you don’t know how to use the tool, it can’t give you the highest potential. Just can’t. So it’s gonna be an A STEM school.

John: I love it. That’s so fantastic.

That’s so great. Yeah. And to be able to just have future generations experience what you’ve been able to experience and live. That’s so great. I’m excited for the future of leadership, I guess, to be a little more compassionate and human, which is awesome. That’s so cool. And do you have like any performances that you’ve done that come to mind that were some of your favorites or things that you’ve done in the past?

Rani: Yeah. I’ll talk about two performances. This is how I started off in 1996, so quite a while ago. But I took the five elements of the earth, so fire, earth, water, wind, and space. And I really just studied them. I studied the elements for what they are and how they react externally. And then as I was able to connect them to our emotions within our bodies and actually develop a whole dance pedagogy based off of the five elements of the earth, then I created an entire script, which was based off— ’cause I was living in India at the time, based off of India’s history all the way from— because, you know, India is like one of the oldest civilizations.

John: Yeah. I was gonna say.

Rani: A thousand years ago.

John: That’s a long show. No, I’m teasing.

Rani: It was such a long show.

John: A condensed version. Yeah. Yeah.

Rani: But what I tried to do is show the phases of development and growth within India in connection to the elements of the earth that there was one specific element that played a dominant role in the way the people behaved, reacted with the environment and continued their growth on forward as to today now where you see India is. So, that itself was called Ishavasya. It’s a Sanskrit name actually. But Isha means the core of creation and Vasya means life. So, life that was created from the core of creation. That was my first one.

John: That’s awesome.

Rani: That’s a Broadway-style musical actually. So I had students from the ages of 9 to 14 because I believed in empowering these young minds and young women. So, 9 to 14 years of girls and there were 40 of them on stage. And I kid you not, I had 70 people backstage. 70 people backstage.

John: Wow.

Rani: Yeah.

John: Wow.

Rani: It was a complete Broadway-style musical. Awesome, awesome. And it did really well. It did really well in India. Yeah. We had like about at least 25 shows in a season, which is good for that time.

John: Yeah, that’s crazy. Just like to put this all together, like that’s unbelievable.

Rani: That’s organization.

John: Yeah. That is way harder than being an executive vice president. Like a global corporation. I mean, that’s nuts because you’re creating from nothing. It’s not like, well, we had it going and then we just tweaked it. It’s no, no, we started it from absolute zero. And to be able to see that come alive had to be really fantastic to just sit there and see it.

Rani: It was fantastic. And remember, I never believed in these kids following or mimicking what I wanted to choreograph. I’m like, no, if we’re talking about fire during this period of India, let’s go experience fire. So we would create a bonfire. What does it feel like? What are the movements of fire?

John: Yeah. What does it look like? Yeah.

Rani: Is it downwards or is it upwards? What’s going on? How would you imbibe that design of fire into your own actions? So a lot of the choreography, the base steps would come from the students themselves. We needed buy-in because remember it was a platform for expression, not for following.

John: No, that’s so great. And to be able to recognize that ahead of time. And imagine if more corporate leaders had that like frame of mind of, you know, ’cause it’s so much of just do what exactly what I tell you. And it’s like, oh no, you did that macro different than I would have done it or you did whatever. It’s like, holy crap, we got the same end result. Like calm down, you know? But getting that buy-in and getting people to want to co-create with you and all that, like that’s such a great way to not only create, but also create in business. I love it.

Rani: Create business and we’re empowering people, right? Because, remember, good companies are basically bodies of people. I always say a great company is— Great people make a great company.

John: Yeah.

Rani: That’s the bottom line.

John: Yeah.

Rani: Yeah.

John: And allow people to just put their thumbprint on the work as well. It’s just cool to just hear that. Like the parallels that I never thought about before between creating, and song, and dance, and all that to business. That’s so awesome.

Rani: Thank you. Thank you. Love it. And it works. It works. People are always an amazement. Like how? Same principle, folks. Same principle. Same trust. Same empathy. Same belief in your people.

John: Yeah. And how much do you think it matters that people have an outside of work hobby, passion, interest, and “and” if you will?

Rani: It’s critical. People need to have that. And I always say you could never really silo your life. You can’t say that, oh, well I’m a dancer here and I’m not here. No. Whatever you do outside, whether it’s gardening, fixing your car, whatever, that passion is going to spill into every parts of our life. That’s what I believe in. We don’t live in silos.

John: Right. No, it’s true. I mean, it’s like, oh, you’re right-handed. You can’t bring your right arm to work. And it’s like what are you talking about? Like this is my strongest thing. Like what? Yeah, it’s so true. Like you can’t be part this and part that. It’s all of who you are everywhere you go. And certain parts of it shine.

Rani: Exactly. And then if you’re not, that means you’re not being your authentic self in your business world, or even in your family life, or whatever organization you’re a part of. And I always say this, authenticity is your power. Authenticity, how you are, and who you are, and as you show up, that’s your power.

John: Yeah. I love that. That’s so awesome to hear. And just how much this message just— You’ve been living it and it’s just cool to hear that it’s a real thing. It’s not just a make-believe thing that I was the only one like type of experience. And are there ways that you encourage people to share their “ands” or get to know the “ands” of the people around you?

Rani: Absolutely. Well, in our company setting, I always say I would like your dream to become our dream. So if there are other “ands,” people are involved in other non-profits or they’ve got other hobbies and interests, we’re like, hey, bring us into the mix. We wanna do a MS 150. Let’s form a bicycle team and let’s go for it. So whatever their “ands” are, we talk about it. I talk about it quite openly. I want people to share their so that it’s not just an “and” for you. It becomes an us. And there’s just so much more power when we can all do it and share it together. Even in a company, I say this, let’s just talk about a smaller unit of a company would be like a family, right?

When your kids are doing something, you know, the parents or the grandparents, whatever, we all wanna be a part of it because it brings that momentum, it brings that enthusiasm, and also gives that child an encouragement to really be their best. So we’re all part of it. I say the same thing in a company too. Whatever your dream is, let’s make it ours because, guess what, we’re probably in this one space together longer than we are out in our outside worlds. So I always talk about legacy. So this is not about one company or one person building their legacy, but it’s about all these individuals building their legacy together. They may be in parallels, but gosh, that panoramic view looks good.

John: Yeah, it looks incredible. I mean, even in the finance department, let’s just say, like somebody walks by and it’s like, well, who’s over in this area? It’s finance. No one’s beating down the door to get into that group. Like no one’s like, oh awesome, that’s the cool kids. But if you said it’s a group of people that like to sing, and dance, and ride bicycles, and volunteer and whatever, it’s like, wow, that sounds like a really interesting group of people. It’s not what do they do for work. It’s who are they, which is a deeper different question.

Rani: You’re so right. And it’s because who we are, and we are humans first, and we also have a skill and a trade, that gives us so much more grace even if we do make a mistake. Or if we’ve got a great idea, people are more receptive to. It’s like, yeah, I know who you are. You got the right heart, so I’m gonna listen to you.

John: Yeah. And it bridges generational differences. It bridges diversity, equity, inclusion differences. It bridges all of those things because those outside of work hobbies, passions, it’s a deeper connection than all that stuff. I love it. That’s so awesome. And so, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe has an “and,” but they’re like, well, it doesn’t have anything to do with my job, so I don’t share it?

Rani: If you have an “and,” embrace it because, guess what, we all are unique individuals. And if that “and” is yours and you know it, try and develop it because that “and” is probably part of your purpose too. We all are here for some reason. And I am a big believer of that. Most of the times, that “and” is gonna lead you to inspiring, motivating somebody else to live a better, fuller, easier life. So, really do embrace it. Don’t cut yourself short on that one.

John: That’s fantastic. So, great. So, great. And this has been so much fun, Rani, but I feel like it’s only fair ’cause I rudely peppered you with so many questions up front that I turn the tables. We make this the Rani Puranik podcast. And so, you’re the host, I’m the guest. Any questions you have for me? Fire away. I’m all yours.

Rani: Absolutely. So, hey, rapid round by the way. This is me impromptu. So, black or white?

John: Yeah. Wow. I’m gonna go white. Yeah, I’m gonna go white. Also, ’cause you’re the host and I know that’s your favorite, so I’m gonna suck up a little bit. But yeah, I’ll go white.

Rani: What’s your favorite oldest shirt, T-shirt that you wear?

John: Okay, so I went to Notre Dame. And every year for football season, they create the shirt. And it’s part of a fundraiser for charity. And so, I have the shirt from my freshman year at Notre Dame. I mean, it doesn’t make an appearance often. But every once in a while, I bring it out a rotation and wear it in the fall or whatever for football season. But yeah, I have probably 20 of the 25 shirts since I graduated I’m sure ’cause each year it’s a totally different design. But if they’re really nasty or not nasty, but if they’re just ugly, I’m like, nah, I’m gonna pass on that one, but I do usually get them. Yeah.

Rani: I love it. I love it.

Let’s see. Sunrise, sunset?

John: You know, I think I’m gonna go sunset just because I’m gonna see more of them or maybe it should be the opposite. Maybe it should be sunrise ’cause then it’s extra special ’cause I did it on accident.

Rani: Awesome. What type of music do you listen to?

John: Yeah. You know, almost everything except for probably country. I’m not a huge fan. It’s just too depressing, I think.

Rani: Oh two stepping. We’ve gotta go two stepping at some point.

John: Okay. Maybe if I knew the dance, then all right, we do that. Next time I’m in Houston, it’s on. I gotta get some boots and a hat. Like I just don’t have all the outfit, but typically almost everything else, but mostly like alternative rock or something like that. Yeah.

Rani: Awesome. Awesome. And what’s your “and,” John?

John: So my “and,” definitely college football. It’s huge. I play the piano. Ice cream is a definitely an “and” and I’ll fight anyone who thinks it’s not. I’m that passionate about it. And travel and concerts. Yeah. So I mean, it’s good to have several, and creating is always good. Creation. So, that’s why I love what you had as well. This has been so much fun, Rani. Thanks for being a part of What’s Your “And”?

Rani: Thank you so much, John.

John: Everyone listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Rani in action, or maybe connect with her on social media, or pre-order the book, Seven Letters to My Daughters: Light Lessons of Love, Leadership, and Legacy, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to check out the book, What’s Your “And”? And thanks for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 575 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garret. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and,” those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work. It’s the answer to the question of who else are you besides the job title.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Brian Beckcom. He’s the owner and trial lawyer at VB Attorneys in Houston, Texas, and the host of the Lessons from Leaders podcast. And now, he’s with me here today. Brian, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Brian: John, I absolutely consider it an honor to be on your show. I think what you’re doing is fantastic. I think sometimes we have a tendency as we get into the professional world or the working world, our identity becomes what we do for a living. So, for example, I’m a lawyer. And some people say, “Well, who are you?” “I’m a lawyer.” “Who are you?” “Oh, I’m a dentist.” “Who are you?” “I’m a basketball coach.” Literally, the language you use, you start self-identifying with your profession. And I think it’s really, really cool what you’re doing to basically humanize people and talk about, hey, everybody knows what a lawyer does, everybody knows what a dentist does, what do you do? You know what I mean? So anyway, I really appreciate the invite, and I’m really looking forward to this.

John: No, I appreciate it, man. Yeah. ‘Cause, I mean, you’re an attorney and a jujitsu, martial artist, purple belt, like whatever. And like who else are you type of thing and what lights you up? Like we all have jobs where we make money, but what do you use that money to do? Like what are those cool things that you’re going and doing? You know, I wanna know what those are ’cause that’s how you get to know people. So I’m excited to have you be a part of this. I have 17 rapid-fire questions right out of the gate here. Get to know Brian. We’ll start with maybe an easy one. I don’t know. Favorite season. Summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Brian: Fall. No doubt about it. Ask me why.

John: Why is that?

Brian: College football season.

John: Yes! We might be brothers from a different mother, man. Like it’s the same reason. The weather gets a little bit cooler. College football. Amen, man. Amen.

Brian: That smell in the air. It’s like crispy smell. And if you can kind of smell some people cooking on the grill and doing some tailgating, and—

John: There you go.

Brian: …I’m with all my friends and family.

John: You could drink hot chocolate and people don’t look at you weird.

Brian: Hot chocolate. Yeah, yeah, definitely fall. Definitely fall.

John: No, I love it. Same. How about puzzle? Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Brian: Boy, that’s a good question. I would probably say, man, I love crosswords. My grandmother grew up doing crosswords with me, but I’m kind of a numbers guy too, so Sudoku. I like Sudoku a lot. I like puzzles in general. So I’m not sure I could limit it to just one.

John: Okay. No, fair enough. We’ll take all of them. We’ll take all of them. How about a favorite color?

Brian: Blue. A lighter blue. Not like a royal blue, but a lighter blue. And it’s interesting because the reason for that is because— and there’s a ton of studies. Colors cause people to have emotions. And like red is a hotter color and green is a cooler color. Yellow’s a cooler color. And blue is a mix of all of that stuff. I think blue has a cooling effect, but blue is generally considered the color of royalty, either blue or purple and stuff like that. So I would say blue. Yeah.

John: Oh, fair. Same. I love blue too. Same thing. How about a least favorite color?

Brian: Red. Because like we were just talking about, red is harsh. I think it’s overused. I think red can be used very sparingly. If it’s used sparingly, it can be used very effectively. But I think people use it too much.

John: As a pop, yeah.

Brian: Yeah.

John: For sure. How about a favorite sports team? Any sport.

Brian: Texas Aggies. And it’s not even close. Fighting Texas Aggies. I’m a graduate of Texas A&M University. And I played basketball there too

John: Yeah. That’s awesome.

Brian: So, Texas A&M, specifically the football team. That’s my team.

John: There you go. I figured your least favorite color would be burnt orange, but we’ll take red.

Brian: That’s UT. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah, my least favorite color.

John: Oh, your least favorite color. Yeah, your least favorite.

Brian: That’s my second least favorite.

John: There you go. All right. You were like I’m not even acknowledging them as a— Like they don’t even exist. That’s why.

Brian: Exactly.

John: That’s awesome. Solid. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Brian: Boy, that’s a great question. I think probably the best actor the last 40 or 50 years in my mind is Daniel Day-Lewis. I love him as an actor.

John: Oh, yeah. So good. Yeah.

Brian: He just becomes the character. And man, there’s a lot of actresses that I like a lot. In addition to Daniel Day-Lewis, I would probably also throw De Niro in there ’cause I’m a huge fan of mafia movies.

John: Okay. Okay. There you go. That’s fair. This is an important one. Toilet paper roll, over or under?

Brian: Over.

John: Over. Yeah. No, I agree. Yeah, yeah, totally. For sure.

Brian: Because you can swat it and make it come out instead of having to give it an upper cut. You can just kind of swat it from the top.

John: There you go. Little jujitsu kind of reference.

Brian: Exactly. That’s what I was gonna say. So, as a jujitsu person, I like to use leverage and not muscular strength. And so, if it’s on the top, you’re using gravity to help you. If it’s on the bottom, gravity’s working against you.

John: Right. Someone told me that actually, for that reason, you use more. And so, that’s why the toilet paper industry made it that way so then you end up using more. So, it all goes back to they sell more and make more money. And I’m like at a dollar a roll, I think we’re good. Like I’m fine.

Brian: Yeah. Those guys think about everything.

John: Yeah. Right? They really do. They really do. How about your computer? More of a PC or a Mac?

Brian: So I have a degree in computer science from the early 1990s. And I was around computers before Microsoft existed. Apple had just started. I have very strong feelings about this. You are not allowed at my law firm— Seriously, you are not allowed to own a PC, to use an Android phone. We use all Apple, period. If you work for me and you have an Android phone, you’re either gonna get an iPhone, which I will pay for, or you’re going somewhere else. Seriously, like I have super, super strong feelings. I’m an Apple guy. You know, there’s, there’s a bunch of reasons for that. But professionally, there’s a real specific reason for that. And that’s that their security is by far the best. It’s not even close. Android and Microsoft security is not that good.

And as a lawyer, I have a lot of confidential information that I gotta keep track of. And Apple just does a better job at that. They do a better job. They’ve done a better job historically, and they’ve done a better job technically. And Android, the problem with Android and Google is there’s a saying in computer science, if the product’s free, you’re the product. And that’s what Google sells. Google sells your data. At the end of the day, Google’s product is your data. And Apple’s product is hardware, so they don’t have to do some of the things that companies like Google do. And I’m not criticizing Google and Microsoft as companies. I’m just saying their security compared to Apple is dog shit. So, pardon my language.

John: Right. There you go. There you go. Yeah. So you show up with a PC laptop and a Longhorns wallpaper, like here’s the door. Like see you later. Like it’s all good.

Brian: Yeah. You’re, you’re gonna have to change some things to remain at this place.

John: There you go. I’m a huge ice cream junkie. So, ice cream in a cup or in a cone?

Brian: Cone. And the reason for that is I like the last bite at the very bottom of the cone. That’s my favorite.

John: Oh, yeah. So good. Yeah. Amen. Yeah, totally. How about a favorite animal? Any animal at all.

Brian: Dogs. My grandfather, after he got out of the military, ran the Dallas SPCA for 20 years. And so, I’ve been around dogs, particularly rescue dogs, my entire life. And I know that’s an easy answer to say. Dog. Everybody loves dogs. But that’s my favorite. But non-domestic animals, I would say cheetah ’cause that’s what I wanted to be when I grew up ’cause they’re so fast.

John: Yeah, totally, man. Totally. You are like hoping for chickenpox so you can get some spots and be like I’m just like a cheetah. Like it’s awesome. Oh, this is a good one since you are the attorney. Criminal or civil law?

Brian: Good question. Civil law for me. That’s what I practice. Although the real lawyers, they ain’t the prosecutors, they ain’t the commercial lawyers. The real lawyers are the criminal defense lawyers. Those are the best of the best. Those are the people that have the toughest job. And I respect the hell out of criminal defense lawyers.

John: Yeah. All right. All right. How about a favorite number?

Brian: 17.

John: Okay. Is there a reason?

Brian: Yeah, there is. So my grandfather, my father, me, my brother, and now my oldest son all went through the Corps of Cadets at Texas A&M, which is like going to West Point, only inside of a major university.

It’s 24-hour military. You wear a uniform all the time. There’s different outfits. And ours was Squadron 17. So, that’s where that comes from. Very specific reason. Yeah.

John: All through all of you. Wow. That’s very cool. All right. How about prefer more hot or cold?

Brian: Oh, man. Definitely, definitely hot. I mean, it used to be, man, I was the biggest wimp in the world when it came to cold. But when I started training in jujitsu a number of years back, I started doing cold baths and cold plunges, and like hot and cold therapy. And I’ve kind of gotten to where I kind of like the cold more than I used to. But man, I live in Houston, Texas. I like to golf, and fly fish, and do things like that. So I’m a warm weather guy for sure.

John: There you go. All right. We got three more. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Brian: Real book. Not only real book, but hard copy of real book. I read 150 books a year. Got about 100 books down in my living room underneath my coffee table so I can sit there and pick ’em up. I still read books on Kindle, especially when I’m trying to fall asleep. And I’ll buy a paperbook if I have to. But I finally said, you know, if I wanna read these books, I’m gonna buy a real book. I’m buy a hardback book, and I’m gonna put my phone in the other room. I’m gonna read like you’re supposed to. So, hardback, real books, that’s my thing.

John: I love it. Okay. All right. How about a favorite day of the week?

Brian: Ooh. I kind of wanna say Sunday because Sunday’s my rest day, and my recuperation, and my get ready for the weekday. I try to do as little as I can on Sunday that doesn’t involve preparing for my upcoming week. So I don’t exercise. I might go for a walk or something. I don’t do jujitsu. I try not to work too much. Sunday’s kind of my rest and recuperation day.

John: Okay. Yeah. Fair. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Brian: There’s a pair of boots behind me. Those are my senior boots from the corps of cadets. That’s probably one of the things I’m most proud of. And if you look to the other side, you can see a saber on my desk. And that’s also from the corps of cadets. So I would say the things that I earned in the corps of cadets, my boots, my saber, my ring, those are probably the things I’m most proud of. Yeah.

John: Yeah. That’s awesome.

Brian: Either that or my purple belt in Brazilian jujitsu.

John: Right. That’s pretty sweet too. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, that’s awesome, man. I love it. And so, let’s talk jujitsu. Like how did you get started with that? Is it something that you did as a kid or you got into later?

Brian: So I’ll try to tell this as briefly as I can. My dad played football in college at A&M. I played basketball at A&M. I’ve been an athlete my whole life. I grew up around athletes. So I was getting a little bit older. My sport from about 40 to about 47, maybe 35 to 45 was golf. And before that, it was basketball, and running, and lifting, and stuff like that. But then I picked up golf and became fairly good at it. Got down to about a 4 or 5 handicap. Actually, I remember exactly how old I was. I was 47 years old. I’m 50 now. And I started thinking, “Man, I’ve got a beautiful house, beautiful family, beautiful kids, great car, got everything I want. And I’m getting out of shape and lazy. And I don’t feel that good. And I need to figure out how to challenge myself again.”

So through a series of very fortunate coincidences, I ended up at a jujitsu studio. And man, it’s changed my life in so many ways. All for the positive. It’s made me a better person in so many ways. I’m totally addicted to it. And I really truly wish that everybody would give it a shot because it’s one of the best things I’ve ever done. So I did not grow up doing jujitsu. I did a little Taekwondo when my dad was in the military and I was on military bases. A little bit of that. I have a young brother and we fought all the time. And I’m Irish. My grandfather was a bare-fisted professional boxer back in the ’20s and ’30s.

John: Holy cow.

Brian: Yeah. So I’ve got a little bit of that fighting spirit in me, but it was just something that I’d been thinking about it for quite some time and just never really had the courage to do it to be totally honest with you. I hired a lawyer, a younger kid, who was a purple belt in jujitsu. I started talking to him about it, and that kind of was the thing that pushed me over the top. And so, 47 years old, slightly out of shape, former athlete, I show up at this jujitsu studio about 10 minutes from my house. I had Googled jujitsu near me, so just went to the closest one. Walk into this gym, feel like a complete idiot, don’t know a single person, don’t even know how to put on a uniform or tie the belt. I see all these Brazilian guys that look like they could kill me by just looking at me the right way or the wrong way.

Totally intimidated, felt like a complete fool when I’m there. Got my first class. I had a little match with a 45-year-old, bald, Jewish computer scientist who is 5 inches shorter and 50 pounds lighter. And he completely annihilated me. And I was like “Man…” His name’s Jake. He’s a black belt now. We’re good friends. And I said, “Man, I gotta learn how to do this.” And this is like black magic. And it’s literally like having magical powers when you get good at it. Like like being able to manipulate somebody else’s body without them being able to do anything about it is just super cool. So, that’s a very, very long way of saying I ddin’t grow up doing it, but jumped into it.

John: Yeah. No, I love that though. But I mean, such great stories of like, you know, cool memories and what it felt like that first time. And so, jujitsu, I guess just so I understand and most of the people listening, what form of— because, I mean, there’s Karate Kid and all that stuff, it’s different than that.

Brian: Really good question. Jujitsu, if you trace it all the way back to its origins, started as kind of an offshoot of Japanese judo. Judo is a martial art that focuses on how to take people from a standing position and put them on the ground. Jujitsu is kind of a mix of taking people and putting them to the ground, but then what do you do with them when they’re on the ground? And so, anyway, these Japanese judokas come over to Brazil and meet a family called the Gracies in Brazil. And then the Gracies, this Brazilian family of Scottish origin, develops Brazilian jujitsu originally for smaller people to be able to defend themselves from the violence of the streets in Brazil. Brazil at least was, still is, and can be very violent in certain places.

John: That’s for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian: It was a way to teach people self-defense. So in jujitsu, and we’re not talking about street fighting jujitsu, but there’s no punching. Like you’re not hitting somebody in the face. It’s more a combination of like wrestling and judo. And so, like if you and I were to have a roll— We call it rolling instead of fighting. If you and I were to have a roll, within about seconds to a minute, I would be on your back with my arm around your neck, and you would fall asleep in about 6 seconds if you didn’t tap, and then I would let you go.

John: Right. Right.

Brian: And so, it’s also a way— And by the way, you would wake up about 5 seconds later and be completely fine. You’d be a little disoriented.

John: That’s amazing’s.

John: Yeah. It’s a way to subdue people without injuring them severely. So I think every single police officer, and there’s a lot of us that believe this, should be at least a blue belt in jujitsu. New York City banned choke holds for police officers, which is fucking idiotic because what are you gonna do now? You’re gonna hit somebody with a baton, which can cause way more?

John: You’re just gonna say please. You’re just gonna say please.

Brian: Yeah. Yeah. But if you know basic chokes and basic ways to like hold people down—

John: No, totally.

Brian: Yeah. And hold people down without hurting ’em. So I can hold people, I can hold somebody down for as long as I want to and cause them no injury. They call it a gentle art. It’s nonsense. It’s not that gentle.

John: Right. That’s nonsense.

Brian: The other neat thing about it is, so one of the objectives of jujitsu is to get the fight to the ground. Why is that so important? Because if you’re standing up, the source of your explosive power is your legs and your hips. So if you’re going against a bigger person and they can use their legs and hips to generate power, you’re gonna be in trouble. But if they’re lying on their back on the ground, they can’t use their legs and hips. And so, all their explosive power goes away. And so, a smaller person truly can— I weigh about 215 pounds. I’m 6’2″, 215. I go against guys who are 250, 260 all the time and whip their butts if they’re less experienced. If they’re more experienced, they whip my butt. But the point is that a smaller person who knows what’s it then can beat—

John: Evens it out a little bit.

Brian: Yeah, it even it out. It evens it out.

John: That’s awesome.

Brian: Takes away their power.

John: Yeah.

Brian: Anyway.

John: No, that’s great. That’s so great. And it’s like playing on 8-foot rims in basketball. It’s like “All right, I can do this.”

Brian: Good analogy. Good analogy.

John: I can dunk now. All right.

Brian: Exactly.

John: No, that’s awesome. And I love too the story how you were talking to a lawyer who was a purple belt as well. So, was that someone at your firm or just someone that you knew?

Brian: Yeah, it was an associate that I hired 3 years ago. And I was looking at his resume and basketball player, University of Texas Law School, which is where I went to law school, jujitsu. I was like “Oh, jujitsu.” And you know, the interesting thing now, I mean, I have an associate, a colleague, a lawyer, and we fight all the time on the jujitsu mats.

John: Yeah. But you have a connection that’s different than just other people in the office, you know, type of thing.

Brian: Absolutely.

Brian: I think kudos to him for having it on his resume. That’s awesome because that’s a way to stand out from just another person that went to law school. Great. It’s like “Oh, well, you know, college athlete, jujitsu.” Like whatever it is, you’re outside of work, your “ands,” those are things that that’s great. And it’s cool that you latched onto that even accidentally. That’s pretty awesome. And so, is that something at your firm that you encourage? What are ways that you get people to share some of those sides of themselves?

Brian: We don’t encourage jujitsu per se, but we do encourage people to live a healthy lifestyle. And it’s something that I’m actually fairly proud of. It’s something that the legal community should be fairly not proud of, is— And this is changing a little bit, but it used to be when I started out that if you didn’t work 16-hour days 6 days a week, everybody said you were lazy. So what happens? You end up sitting on a chair behind a computer 16 hours a day. Your butt starts spreading out. Your belly starts getting bigger. You’re eating these big lunches every day. And you kind of get this look about you that like— I mean, I found myself going “These people don’t look very healthy to me.”

John: No. They’re like “Great.” It’s like “What’s happening?”

Brian: They’re like pale-colored skin and like what? I don’t wanna look like that. Right? So we’ve made a big deal at our firm that— I mean, my law partner is a golfer who walks and carries his bag every time he plays. That’s really solid workout. My paralegal went from being 30 pounds overweight to being in fantastic shape doing all sorts of different competitions and stuff. Like I said, I got another paralegal who’s a jujitsu guy. So we really, really do encourage people to live a healthy lifestyle at our firm. And you know, I think it’s the right thing to do ethically, but I think it’s good for business for people to be healthy ’cause they’re gonna be happy and they’re gonna do a better job.

John: No, absolutely. And I love it because you’re showing a genuine interest in the person ’cause you hired the whole person. You didn’t hire just the law part of them. You hired all of them. And so, And so it’s like “Hey, we care about all of you. Not just the technical skills. I mean, we care about that too, of course.” But we all know that that’s why we have a job. But I love it, man. I think that’s such a great example of just a way to show like I care about you and that’s awesome, man. That’s such a great example. And also too, just the ramifications of it all, what you’re saying, people are happier, they’re more productive, they’re more engaged, like you have something to actually ask someone about other than how many hours did you work last week, you know?

Brian: Exactly.

John: It’s like “Hey, how was the golf game? How was the competition that you just did? How’s whatever?” And it’s gotta be a cooler place to work.

Brian: No doubt.

John: I love that, man. That’s so awesome. And so, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe they have an “and” that, well, no one’s gonna care, like why should I put it on my resume, or why should I even share it with anyone at work because that’s not what we do here?

Brian: So I’ll say two things. And one will be a direct answer to the question and one will be a little bit less direct answer to the question, is absolutely you should put that on your resume. I make hiring and firing decisions and have for 20 years at my firm. And I look at that stuff like that’s a big deal. And I’m not the only one. Like how many times can— Okay, you went to this law school, have this GPA. You were on this mock court competition and five people that you’ve hand selected say you’re awesome. Like how many times are you gonna read it? Right?

But if I read something that says, okay, I went to this law school, I’ve chosen five references, handpicked, they’re gonna say great things about me, my PGA was this, this, and this, and I’m an Eagle Scout. Well, now you got my attention. Or and I make clay pottery or and I’m a marathoner. It doesn’t matter what it is. The point is that you’re showing that you got a little bit of juice. Like your life doesn’t revolve around your work. And for what I do, and I think it’s not just trial lawyers, it’s a lot of different professions, I’m a better trial lawyer the more I am out in the world as opposed to sitting behind my desk reading case law.

Like my job is to connect with people. At the end of the day, my job is to persuade people to do what I want them to do for my client. And the only way to do that, the only way to connect with people is to have genuine relationships outside of work. And so, the direct answer to the question is you absolutely should put your “and.” The less direct answer is if you’re sitting there going I don’t have an “and” or what is my “and,” go get one. And by the way, if you’re my age— So one of my missions, John, at 50 now is to encourage my contemporaries not to hang it up. I see too many people just like “I don’t wanna exercise anymore. I don’t wanna get better at my job. I don’t wanna improve my own personal ethics and morals.”

And what I’m saying is that 50 years old is not the finish line. I don’t wanna say it’s the starting line. It’s not the starting line. But at 50, you should have enough intelligence, maturity, experience, drive to really give back. Like to me, 50 is at the age in which you stop going “It’s all about me” and you start going “How can I make the world a better place?” That’s what you should start doing. And that’s your “and.” Your “and” is how you’re making the world a better place.

John: Definitely. And leaving that legacy. And yeah. And jujitsu’s a great place to start. Just Google jujitsu near me and then some IT guys throwing you around before you know it. That’s awesome, man. No, it’s such great advice, and I love that so much. It helps you stand out, and it makes you a better professional. It does. The old school mentality of, like you were saying, the 16-hour days for 6 days a week, well, if you had anything outside of work, God forbid, what are you doing, you should be working more, and if you do have something, don’t share it, like shut your mouth, and now it’s the opposite. That mentality is so wrong. It literally makes you better at your job. It makes you a better professional. There’s been studies on it as well, and you’re anecdotally able to prove it. It’s so great to hear that. So, that’s awesome.

I appreciate you being a part of this, Brian. And I feel like it’s only fair though that I turn the tables and let you be the host now so you can ask me whatever you want since I peppered you with questions at the beginning. And you can put on your attorney hat again, and I’m on the stand, so like here we go. Like this is gonna be fun.

Brian: What’s the meaning of life?

John: Oh, there we go. There it is. All right. Well, it depends. Like it depends. I think you answered it though. I mean, I think it’s just leaving the world a better place than when you came in. Just continuing to grow, and learn, and become a better version of yourself, I guess.

Brian: I love that answer, John. I’ve been thinking about that question a lot lately. And, well, here’s how I answer that question. I tell people I’m not sure what the purpose of life is, but getting the most out whatever talents and abilities you’ve been given, like maximizing your potential and doing things for other people. I’m not sure if that’s the meaning of life, but that’s a pretty good way to live your life, I think.

John: That’s a good start. Yeah, absolutely.

Brian: That’s a good start.

John: Absolutely.

Brian: That’s a good start. I love that answer. I love your answer. Yeah.

John: Awesome. Well, I definitely attornied that one by making it up, so I like what you said. No, but I honestly believe it. I was like “Yeah, this.” And then after I answered, I was like “Well, that was actually a good one.”

Brian: Pretty good. Yeah. Pretty good.

John: That was very good. All right. Yeah. You got anything else?

Brian: Yeah. So what are you most curious about? Like what are you fascinated about? What do you wanna learn more about?

John: Oh, wow. Okay. So I’m actually truly fascinated why we, as humans, will break off parts of ourselves and bury it because it’s not accepted or we don’t think it’s how we’re supposed to be. So we actually take a part of ourselves and bury it. Like we don’t hide it. We bury it and then we somehow rope-a-dope our brains to forget that we even had that thing that we buried, whether it’s through growing up or going to school and going to university. But then when you start work, if you compare who you were your last day of senior year and your first day walking into a law firm, there are different people. We act because I think I have to act a certain way. I have to dress a certain way. I have to be a certain thing.

John: And you’re trying to fit into this odd shaped box that literally no one fits in. No one. And yet we’re all trying to fit into this dumb box. And it’s like “No, no, cut your own box your size and then fit into it comfortably and with all of you in it.” And it just makes you better at who you are. I mean, asking you to go to work and not bring any skills from jujitsu or talk about jujitsu, or fishing, or basketball, or A&M sports, or any of that, like you can’t do any of that. That’s asinine and yet that’s what people do every single day with parts of themselves that they just bury. And I’m fascinated by that, I mean, not only personally, but also just everyone does that. And that’s been the seed of What’s Your “And”?, of I don’t care about the job part. I wanna know those parts that you buried. Go back and pick ’em up type of thing. And the first one is literally just what do you love to do outside of work? That. So let’s pick that one up first because that’s probably the most recent one.

Brian: And that’s what’s so cool about your podcast, John, is you’re fascinated about the subject of your podcast.

So, my podcast is about leadership and positive leadership specifically. And I tell people like one of the big reasons I do it is because I wanna learn something. Like I’m curious about how good leaders become good leaders. And so, it like scratches my own itch. And so, you just said you’re curious about people’s “ands.” So the reason you can do this over time and keep doing it is because you’re truly curious and it’s not just something you’re saying. Like you really wanna know what people do.

John: Oh, I really do.

Brian: Yeah. And that’s what gives you energy and that’s what allows you to do things kind of longer term. My podcast is totally focused on positive leadership, how to be better at leading in a positive way. And I’m fascinated about that topic. So every time I have a good guest on, I mean, I’m riveted by what they have to say. And I tell you what, I have learned so much doing my podcast, talking to all these different people. Because if you pay attention to what people kind of say, kind of the patterns start to emerge and you start seeing what successful leaders do. And it’s just really neat. So I love that you’re scratching your own itch. That’s awesome.

John: No, thanks, man. And no, it’s just great to have you be a part of this. And I mean, you’re living and breathing it already anyway. It’s just cool to have another example of this is what a stereotypical professional is actually. It’s somebody that has “ands” and other dimensions to them. That’s the real stereotype. So yeah, Brian, this has been so awesome. Thanks a lot for being a part of What’s Your “And”?

Brian: It’s been a real pleasure, I gotta tell you. Like I said, I love your show and it’s been a great pleasure, John. Like I said, everybody’s got a story. Nobody is just limited to what they are professionally, and it’s nice that you’re drawn this out of people. So, thanks for having me on. It’s been really fun.

John: Absolutely. Everyone listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Brian in action or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to check out the book. Thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 573 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and,” those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work. It’s answering the question, who else are you beyond your job title?

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every weekend. And this week is no different with my guest, Brian Franklin. He’s a shareholder and audit practice leader at Weinstein Spira in Houston, Texas. And now, he’s with me here today. Brian, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Brian: Absolutely appreciate it, John.

John: Yeah, this is gonna be so much fun. We met several years ago at AGN Conference in Austin, Texas, I believe.

Brian: Yeah. That was in Austin. Yeah.

John: Yeah, yeah. And so, I’m just excited to have you be a part of this. So, thank you so much, man.

Brian: Yeah. Thanks for having me.

John: Yeah. And so, I have some get to know Brian questions right out of the box here. Things I probably should have asked you while we were hanging out looking at armadillos. What was it? Is that what we were in? Looking at armadillo?

Brian: Yeah. Amazing. You know, everyone has to try that once.

John: Right? Exactly. Exactly. So, here we go. How about a favorite color?

Brian: Blue.

John: Blue. Solid. Mine too. We can keep going. All right, perfect. How about a least favorite color?

Brian: Magenta.

John: Magenta. Okay. All right. Now, it’s a hard one to spell too.

Brian: That’s why.

John: That’s why. Yeah. I love it. That’s an easy one. How about a favorite sports team?

Brian: Well, gosh, the locals are up and down currently. Of course, the Astros are compelling and controversial, but you still gotta watch ’em.

John: Oh, yeah. That’s the reason you have to watch ’em. Absolutely. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Brian: Favorite actor or actress? You know, Tom Hanks is always like the every man guy, right, so—

John: Yeah. So many good movies. I mean, they’re all good. Yeah. It’s crazy. This is an important one. Toilet paper rolled over or under?

Brian: Definitely over. Yeah. Under’s annoying ’cause you get lost sometimes. Can’t find it.

John: Right? That’s so true. It’s like emergency, emergency. Like it’s a safety issue. Oh, this is going summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Brian: For us, it’s probably fall. Fall’s when the fun stuff happens. It’s when all the big sports events are going on. It’s when the weather’s best for us. And it’s when I can actually do things.

John: That’s true. Yeah. Yeah. Work related. Amen. Exactly. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Brian: Probably crossword plays to my vocabulary strengths.

John: Right? Just as long as Magenta isn’t one of them.

Brian: That’s right.

John: Then we gotta work on the crosswords. Here we go. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Brian: You know, I like ’em both. Trek’s more intellectual. Wars has more action and has probably a deeper backstory. So, probably Wars actually.

John: Okay. How about your computer, PC or a Mac?

Brian: Well, Mac’s for fun. PCs for work. Right?

John: Oh, wow. Ambidextrous over here. I like it. Okay. A little bit of both. How about a favorite place you’ve been on vacation?

Brian: Oh man, I’ve been to a lot of places.

John: I’ll take more than one if you want. You can do more than one.

Brian: You know, Rio de Janeiro is a beautiful place.

John: Oh, wow.

Brian: The Athens is a beautiful place. We go to British Columbia. We go to Vancouver every summer for the last 25 years, so kind of hard not to mention that one. Been Istanbul. Exotic, but really interesting. And then Tokyo. Tokyo’s a big favorite too.

John: Awesome, man. Very cool. Yeah, do that in the summers, right, when Houston’s burning like crazy, then it’s way too hot. Get the hell out of here.

Brian: It’s advisable to leave Houston in August. Yes. At least for some of it.

John: Exactly, exactly. Oh, I’m a huge ice cream fan. In a cup or in a cone?

Brian: Well, you know, I’d prefer the cone if you can get it.

John: Yeah. Exactly. Sometimes I talk ’em into do the cone on top of the cup so I get a little bit of both, then I don’t lose any running down my hands or whatever.

Brian: There you go.

John: How about a favorite animal? Any animal at all.

Brian: How about a tiger?

John: Yeah. Okay.

Brian: They command a lot of respect, you know.

John: They really do. Yeah. ‘Cause it’s like “I don’t know what that guy’s saying, but you can eat me. That’s for sure.”

Brian: I was at the San Diego Zoo.

It was just reopened for a big remodel, and they have this brand new tiger enclosure. And so, everyone’s looking at this tiger, and this tiger comes out, and he looks at me. Me particularly. And the view on this tiger’s eyes was how can I get up and eat that thing? I mean, I could get in his eyes. He was sizing me up as prey. It was really uncomfortable.

John: Right? Just why is everyone pouring barbecue sauce on me? What’s going on? Like why is— No, like that’s amazing. Yeah. That is like I don’t care how thick the glass is or how many layers of glass, like nope. Like I’m out. They’re intimidating. That’s for sure. Since you have the accounting background, a balance sheet or income statement?

Brian: Balance sheet, yeah, definitely.

John: Oh, that was a slam dunk. There you go. We got four more. Do you prefer more hot or cold?

Brian: Well, I guess I have to say hot just because of where I live, right? Otherwise, it’d be intolerable.

John: Right? They’d be like “You know, you can move.” Right? How about a favorite number?

Brian: Well, 8’s always the lucky number, right? The Chinese have something to say about that. So I used that a couple times. We were on the Great Wall on our 8th anniversary as it happened having dinner, believe it or not, my wife and I. So, just kind of worked out. So, that was kind of an epic event.

John: That’s pretty amazing. That’s very cool. Very cool. How about when it comes to books? Audio version, e-Book, or the real book?

Brian: I have to say the real book. Takes some pressure off your eyes with the blue light and all that kind of stuff. It’s just easier to get through. It’s not as portable of course. But to me, it just carries that extra feel factor, if you will.

John: Yeah, definitely. I mean, it’s how we grew up, you know, like reading and stuff. So yeah, there’s some nostalgia to it as well. Yeah. And it’s a work of art, like having written a book like I didn’t realize, but the font, and the pages, and like everything about it, where the page number is on the piece of paper, like all of that. It’s crazy.

Brian: Yeah, no, it is. Especially if you’re reading some older books that are early editions. They truly are, you know, looking at art as well.

John: Yeah, right. Last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Brian: Oh, wow. Well, we can talk about this later. But you know, we do have the cannons. We can talk about that.

John: I was gonna say cannons have to be somewhere in the top 5. Like, I mean, that’s for sure. But I mean, I remember when we met and it was like, yeah, he owns cannons, and it was plural. It was like “Wait, what?” That’s incredible. And like what kind of cannons are they?

Brian: These are black powder cannons, and they’re scale size. So you know, they’re not the full size guys, although I haven’t helped operate some full-size ones, civil war type stuff. These are house cannons. They’re suitable to be carried by one person, and they make a lot of noise, and they can actually fire a projectile. So you wouldn’t wanna be in front of one of ’em, but you can’t hit a damn thing with them.

John: Right. That’s so cool, man. That’s so cool. I love it. I love it. So, let’s talk competitive show dogs and how did you get started with that?

Brian: Well, my sister-in-law somehow got circuited into this and worked on my wife and I for a few years trying to coax us into coming to one of these events. And we finally did, and it was the noisiest thing I’ve ever heard ’cause these happened to be Jack Russells. And Jack Russells are cute and adorable, but noisy. Very noisy little dogs. And so, there were 200 of these things. But of course, you do get suckered in ’cause they are very adorable. And we ended up going home with one from this very event. That was about 10 years ago. We lost our oldest one, but now we have two still. One’s 11 and one’s 2. And yeah, they’re a lot of fun. There’s a whole subculture around them. You meet a lot of people, and you see a lot of things just because of these dogs that are also our house pets.

John: Yeah. So is it like the Westminster kind of dog show kind of thing or is it sort of like that?

Brian: There’s part of that. I call it the beauty contest part, but Jack Russells are different in the sense that they’re not the Jack Russell Terrier Club of America. And there’s an equivalent for Canada, equivalent for Great Britain, equivalent for Australia. They’re all outside of AKC. So, our club is not part of AKC, but the reason goes back to esoteric breeding standards, and we wanna maintain that the dog can actually hunt ’cause they’re actually hunting dogs and that sort of thing. So our events, we call them trials. So you think about a dog trial, it just kind of puts an interesting picture in my mind.

John: Not guilty. Like it’s like—

Brian: Yes. He did destroy the paper.

John: Yes. Exactly. Right?

Brian: So the beauty contest is part of a dog trial, but there’s also multiple other events there that happen simultaneously. There’s racing involved. So if you think about races, there’s 6 dogs side by side running down a track, a 300-foot track. They’re tracing a lure. And there’s a hurdles version of that as well. And then there’s all these various tunneling events that simulate going underground. And then there’s all these field work tracking events where they gotta go find things out in the woods. And so, this all simulates actual hunting events. And so, we do that as well in addition to the show ring, which is all that AKC does. And so, there’s clubs all over the United States that do this.

There happen to be two in Texas. We’re the southern club. There’s also a northern club. And we just finished our trial, if you will, over the weekend. There’s about 200 dogs or so that were there. And then right now, there’s one going on in Virginia. So they rotate around the United States. And there’s a whole caravan of people that go to these things that they actually just make the circuit. And there’s a national point system, a little bit like NASCAR, but these are dogs.

John: Yeah, yeah.

Brian: And then we do have a nationals that we do every year up in Maryland. So yeah, it’s an interesting organization. People from all kinds of walks of life, and they’re very generous people. Some are professional breeders, some are just owners like ourselves that have house pets, but we all have this love for this dog in common. And sometimes you know the dogs before you know the people. In other words, you know, “Oh, that’s Maisie’s owner, right?”

John: Right. That’s me at the dog park every time. I’m like “I don’t know your name, but I know your dog’s name.” And yeah, I’d rather keep it that way actually, let’s be honest. Dogs have such cool names too. I mean, my dog is Rocket and like you can’t name a— I mean, it’s named after Rocket Ismail, the Notre Dame football player, but that’s his nickname. That’s not like his real name, but it’s just cool. Like when you have dog names, it’s like, man, you can like name it whatever you want.

Brian: To some degree, yeah. Like with ours, there is some conditions ’cause with the competitive dogs, they have to have their kennel name first, who they’re from and that sort of thing, and then they’re good. And then some names are appropriate, some are not. But our older dog, her name is High Range, which is her kennel name. High Range Savage Beast is her name.

John: Nice! Yes!

Brian: Pretty strong name.

John: Yes!

Brian: But we call her Savvy, Beastie, you know, all kinds of other iterations, but High Range Savage Beast is a well-known name. She’s a two-time national champion actually.

John: That’s incredible. Wow. Very cool.

Brian: Our younger dog, he’s 2. His name is Allstar, which is his kennel, Allstar. My Allstar Macho Man.

John: Oh, nice. That’s what I’m talking about. Like if you had a like a child, like a human child, “What your daughter’s name?” “Savage Beast.” It’s like “Wait, what?” But with dogs, it’s like totally anything goes man. And that’s incredible. What cool names, man. I love it. That’s awesome. And a two-time National championship.

Brian: Yeah. Yeah. And our younger dog, I named him after the Village People, but what I didn’t know was that the breeder is actually a huge Randy Savage fan who’s a wrestler and that was his call sign, was Macho man. And he actually had Macho Man T-shirts. So now, we have the Macho Man T-shirts when we go to compete.

John: That’s great. That’s so good. And so, what makes a dog like, I mean, a champion dog? Like do you practice with the dog or is it just the dog’s just good?

Brian: Well, yes, you can practice. Certainly on the athletic events, you do. We have what’s called play days, which are practices where you come and you run the track or you do the tunnel events. But even for the show ring, believe it or not, there is some practice involved because you can’t make a bad dog good, but you can make a good dog bad. And so, you have to show the dog in the proper format, really accentuate their lines and get ’em to stretch properly and to walk properly. And so, I know it looks like they’re just walking around, but there actually is more subtlety to it. And like I said, you can’t make a bad dog win, but you can screw up a good dog.

John: Yeah, that’s for sure. I mean, of course, Best in Show was such a great mockumentary, I guess back, in the day, but it really did. It was like “Man, there’s a lot more to this than just show up and walk your dog around.” I mean, there’s definitely a science to it and an art to it as well.

Brian: And it’s comedy. But unfortunately, there is some truth. Some of the people that go there—

John: Right. Totally. The two left shoes and all that. Like that was amazing. Like that was like— I mean, it was super funny, but that’s really cool, man. Really cool. And do you feel like any of the competitive show dog exhibiting translates to work at all?

Brian: Well, I mean, like I said, you do meet a lot of people that— Professionally, we’ve met and actually had some referrals in that sense.

John: Oh, wow.

Brian: Yeah, sure. ‘Cause, you know, again, it’s people from all walks of life. This is not an inexpensive little hobby ’cause all the gear that goes with it. I mean, a lot of people own big RVs because that’s how they get around to these various events because it makes sense to haul your dogs and all that. Just flying with them isn’t always great with all the gear that has to go with them. And some people show up with 8 or 10 dogs too if they’re breeders. So, that’s another thing. But yeah, we’ve met a lot of people in that regard. Even the people I work with, of course, it becomes known and they wanna know more about it. And of course, everyone has a dog, right? And so, you can relate to them on different level. People that you meet and just in real life, clients, that sort of thing. So it’s a way to differentiate yourself. It’s a way to humanize yourself. And now, we’re not always just talking about the dollars and cents. Right?

John: How much does that matter that people, I guess, have interests outside of work that work with you at the firm or even client? Like how much do you care about that or is it more of just like head down, get work done?

Brian: No, no, no. You have to. I mean, it’s a people business both for your clients and with your own coworkers, right, because you wanna work with people that you like whether that’s a vendor, or it’s a client, or it’s a coworker. You’re much more likely to have your own happiness and your own retention, if you will, if you’re in an environment that you actually enjoy. And so, that is important. And you get to know people on a personal level. Not like super intimate, but much more deep than just “Hey, let’s transactionally deal with this.” Right? But no, it’s a little bit more about what’s going on and so that you have more empathy with each other and you understand the more holistic part of that person. And it does differentiate in the marketplace for sure with banks, and clients, and that sort of thing.

John: Yeah. I mean, especially when it comes to professional services in general, I mean accounting. I mean, there’s a firm that you could probably throw a football and hit that will do the same work plus or minus. And so, it’s like “What does differentiate us?” And it’s so interesting how we typically lean on our technical skills. Well, that’s what makes us different. It’s like “No, no, you’re digging the hole deeper now.” Like that’s what makes you more the same. Like use the same software even. It’s like “Good lord.” You know? And what does make you different is that that human side of you.

Brian: Exactly. And they expect that you’re good at what you do. It’s just “Hey, do I feel good about working with you?” That’s the next thing, right?

John: Yeah. That’s such a key point right there. Yeah. I mean, how many accountants are like “Well, I’m gonna try to do okay, but I’ll probably mess this up”? Like no one’s saying that. It’s like “No, no, we’re gonna nail it. We’re really good.” And it’s like “Well, that’s what the last person just said and the person before that.” And it’s like, yeah, I love that do I feel comfortable working with this person or having this person represent me or whatever? That’s really key.

And I remember at the AGN Conference that we did. It was so cool how— I believe it was 5 people did like a quick presentation. It was maybe like 3 minutes or something of pictures of their outside of work, their “ands” basically and some stories about it. And I mean, I’ll never forget. Like that was amazing. And I was like “Man, if every firm did that at an all-staff event or every month or whatever, like how cool of a place to work would that be?” And I just remember that AGN group being like “Man, this is a really cool group of people that are willing to do this.”

Brian: Yeah. It just makes you more approachable, more well-rounded. Just more interesting individuals, all right?

John: Yeah. And I remember there was another cannon guy there as well in which I guess come to find out you bought him the cannon, so you got him into that, which is cool ’cause it’s like “Man, I’m not gonna forget Brian. That’s for sure.”

Brian: Yeah. That happened to be his birthday and it was on— They have a vacation home on an island, which is pretty cool. Because of that, it’s a long backstory, but it was a pirate theme. And so, everyone’s doing pirate stuff. And I said, “Well, this place needs a cannon if we’re doing pirate things.” Then they said, “Can you actually buy a cannon?” So I didn’t know at the time. So, sure enough, you can buy a cannon on the internet, believe it or not. It’s perfectly legal. So I bought him a cannon, although he was in Vancouver. So there, it is not exactly legal to have a firing cannon. So I bought him a non-firing yard art cannon, but it was full size. The thing’s 6 feet long. It weighs 2 tons.

John: Oh, my Lord!

Brian: Yeah.

John: Wow! Okay.

Brian: I had it shipped to Texas, so that alone was a story, but yeah. Prominently displayed on the island now. So, every sailboat that goes by has to do a double take with this cannon still.

John: Right. That’s awesome.

Brian: But then you go from there, right? So then, well, I want one that actually works ’cause I live in Texas, right?

John: Yeah. Right. Naturally.

Brian: And so, yeah. So the first one I bought was actually in England. They can’t sell you a working cannon there either, but they could ship it to me without the touch hole, which is the part that actually makes it fire. And I had a friend of mine drill that out, so now it does work.

John: Okay.

Brian: Another friend of ours was into antiques. They found an old one that it was still around, and it actually works. And then finally, I had one commissioned that I like that it took about 6 months, but they made it for us. It’s the big one. It’s a 25-mm guy, and it makes a hell of a lot of noise when it fires off. But again, you can’t do the damn thing.

John: Yeah, yeah, right. That’s so cool though, man. But I mean, you create a connection with others over the cannons or the whatever. It’s a differentiator. It’s pretty awesome to be honest. And I need to start saving up on that for sure just because I think everyone listening right now is like “Wait, what? I need to do this.” All of a sudden, there’s gonna be a run on ’em, and it’s gonna be like everyone’s gonna be getting them, but that’s so cool. I mean, I know too— I mean, just to touch on briefly on other sides of you, I mean, the winery owner, like how do you get in on starting a winery? I mean, did you do something at home and were like “Hey, we’re good at this or were you—”

Brian: Well, I worked for a big firm originally and they had me working on the West Coast a lot ’cause we did a lot of IPOs and sort of naturally got an interest in it that way. And then if you take an interest and a hobby to its logical conclusion, if you talk about wine, if you talk about its ultimate conclusion, well, you just buy a damn winery, don’t you?

John: Right.

Brian: And this winery already existed, but they weren’t quite open to the public yet. And so, I had already gotten some professional degrees in wine at that point, and they had invited me to come back and work as an intern for the harvest season. So I did that. And at the end of that, then we started talking about business. And I actually bought in as a partner. So, that was 2007. So we’ve been doing it ever since. We’re in Sonoma Valley. So yeah, it’s a whole different proposition, but that’s another cool differentiator ’cause I share the wine with clients and with prospects. And of course, now I’m known as the wine guy too, right, in addition to the CPA.

John: Yeah. And I mean, that’s an interesting point that you’re not known as the CPA guy. That’s benchmark. That’s like, yeah, they’re all CPAs. It’s the other things that are the— Your “ands” is what you’re known for, which is cool. How much is it on the organization to create space for people to share their “ands” and how much is it on the individual to maybe just start small with their circle of peers?

Brian: Well, we definitely actively encourage people to have interest outside of work. We do want them to be more well-rounded. And one way we do it, our firm lets our folks do both audit and tax for instance. And so, we want them to do a rotation in both sides of the house to learn both sides of the house. And that’s a little unusual especially for larger firms, but we do think it makes them more well-rounded just on the technical level. They’re cross-trained, they’re more holistic, they can see both sides, and they can speak to clients in different levels ’cause they’re not just in one discipline or the other. So, start there.

But then we also encourage interest in lots of other nonprofits or other interests outside of work, people that you know because, again, it just makes you a more interesting individual. It also kind of grounds you and also makes you more valuable really ultimately to not be quite so siloed into things. And so, we do actively encourage that kind of thing. We encourage people’s organizations. We fund some of those. And we provide ’em opportunities to join organizations where possible.

John: I love it, man. That’s so great ’cause it does make you more interesting. I mean, if you’re all work all the time, what are we gonna talk about when we go to lunch or what are you gonna talk about with a client? I mean, yeah, sure, you’re good at your work and you’re technically sound, but so is everyone else. And the sad thing is is the part that’s completely replaceable is the technical skills part, but the human side to you is not. At some point, you’re gonna retire and good luck finding a partner who owns some cannons, and is way into wine and dogs, and really technically sound. Like we got one and he just retired. That’s the only one I know.

Brian: Yeah, that’s what makes the relationship stickier, right? Is those other things. It’s not transactional.

John: Exactly. No, I love it, man. I love it. Well, this has been so much fun, Brian, but I feel like it’s only fair that because I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning that we turn the tables and make this the Brian Franklin Podcast, and I’ll be your guest. So, thanks for having me on. So whatever questions you have, I’m all yours.

Brian: All right. Well, I guess I’ve got two. One, besides me, what is one of the most interesting things you’ve heard of that a CPA or other professional is up to? And then secondly, what in your own experience have you found to be some of the best “ands” that help you out?

John: Oh, wow. Okay. I mean, honestly, everyone on the podcast is interesting to me because it lights up their soul. Like you can tell like when they talk about it, and their eyes get bigger, and they’re more animated, and you can just hear it in their voice. Man, this is on a soul level. Like this is deep like what really lights them up. But you know, on occasion, you catch somewhere, it’s like “Wait, you race cars or you race motorcycles?” Some like life-threatening type of things where you’re like, whoa, that is— “All right, that’s pretty awesome.” But then on the flip side, it’s super creative, artistic. Stained glass or something like this. And it’s “Wow.”

Michael Puck was on. He’s a dog photographer, and the pictures that they take are amazing. And he’s actually created globaldogart.com as well to help people to bring pictures of dogs into business settings and home because it reduces stress and does all kind of cool things. So yeah, right, exactly, just like you have in your office right there. I don’t know. Like everything’s cool now. It’s like the opposite of seventh grade where you made fun of anyone that was out of the norm. Now, it’s like “Whoa, you play golf? Cool.” I mean that’s like “Nope. I mean, you know, I’m not impressed.” What’s the thing that really lights you up? And for some people, it is golf. Absolutely. But you know, what’s the thing that’s not the “norm?” Like that’s the thing that I love. And then for me personally, what “ands” helped me, well, definitely when I was working, I mean, the comedy side of things was— ’cause it was a differentiator.

I mean, when people are like “Hey, so what’d you do over the weekend” and everyone’s like “Nothing, nothing,” I’m like “Well, I drove to Springfield, Illinois and did a comedy club there at the Funny Bone.” “Wait, you did what?” I didn’t know I was supposed to be honest type of thing. But also too, like as an auditor, you’re coming in— I did a lot of internal audit work or even M&A work, and you’re coming into a company that’s being acquired. And it’s like “Man, if you’re able to just bring a little bit of humor or bring a little humanness to it, that really alleviates tension amongst people involved.

And you know, so many times I would get “Man, you’re, you’re my favorite auditor ever.” I’m like “I don’t know if you’re supposed to say that. Like is that a compliment or like is that maybe I’m not good at it or like what?” But it’s just those little things of like meeting people where they’re at and just being a better communicator through comedy and all that. So, you know, that and then college football. I mean, a lot of people can relate to that. I mean, most people that you’re working with went to college, so they at least have a sports something usually. And so, whether it’s a rival, then I know I have to talk slower if you went to USC. I get it. Or if it’s you also went to Notre Dame, we’re best friends no matter who the coach was when you were there or what year you graduated. I was trying to remember both questions as I’m a terrible guess as you can tell.

Brian: But yeah, you’re right about the humanizing, especially if you’re an auditor, ’cause it’s inherently intimidating for the subject, for your client.

John: Yeah.

Brian: They’ve got a full-time job already and now you’re coming in on top of that. And so, it helps with the empathy, helps them understand, yeah, I’ve got a job to do too, but I’m not here to attack you, I’m just trying to help you. And it’s true. We are trying to help them.

John: Yeah. I mean, I remember like my first audit, like internal audit. Like I picked a random sample of like 10 files or whatever. 9 of them were great. The 10th one, it was like 99% right. It just didn’t have like a blue check mark on one something. I don’t know. It didn’t even matter. And they were like “Oh, you got a write her.” And this lady’s been doing her job longer than I’ve been alive, so like what the hell? Like I’m gonna come in at some like— I don’t even know why I’m doing this, what I’m doing. It’s literally what they did last year, you know, all that.

So we figured out a workaround of just test a little bit more and then it was fine ’cause I was like “I’m not writing her up. This is crap.” Like I’ll test more. And then we we’re comfortable. Cool, let’s go. Because it’s like what are we here for? And busting people is not— I don’t get excited about that. So, that’s why I leaned more towards like the forward thinking side of using accounting to how do we make businesses run better? How do we make people more efficient? How do we just make things better at the end of the day? And then I feel better as a person about that too.

Brian: Yeah. Absolutely. We’re all working together to make this economy run and make sure people have great jobs and great outcomes.

John: Exactly. Well, thank you so much, Brian, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? It was super awesome to have you be a part of this. Thank you.

Brian: Yeah. Thank you very much. Appreciate it, John.

John: Yeah, absolutely. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Brian in action or connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com Everything’s there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to read the book. So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 571 of What’s Your “And?” This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and,” those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work. It’s the answer to the question of who else are you besides the job title.

And if you like what the show’s about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every weekend. And this week is no different with my guest, Abhishek Nayak. He’s the CEO and cofounder of Appsmith based out of Bangalore, India. And now, he’s with me here today. Abhishek, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Abhishek: Oh, hi, John. Lovely to be with you. And you know, I’m excited to talk about everything that’s non-work.

John: Right? Just the human side to you, man. It’s so much fun.

Abhishek: Yeah.

John: I’m just gonna blow the door open here right away with some 17 rapid fire questions. Get to know Abhishek on a new level here. So, let’s start with maybe an easy one. Favorite color?

Abhishek: Thanks pink.

John: Pink! Really? Okay. Nice. Very good. I love it. That’s awesome. How about a least favorite color?

Abhishek: Least favorite is I would say like white.

John: White? Okay. Yeah, it’s a little too bright. How about a favorite season? Summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Abhishek: I’m gonna give you an Indian season. Monsoon. Lots of rain. Lots of greenery.

John: Okay. I love it.

Abhishek: Yeah.

John: That’s great. That’s so perfect. Yeah. ‘Cause I was curious just how that would play out, but monsoon season, okay, ’cause it’s more green and lush. And yeah, that’s fantastic.

Abhishek: Yeah. Yeah.

John: Very cool. How about when it comes to puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, a jigsaw puzzle, maybe Wordle. That’s a big one.

Abhishek: Jigsaw puzzle.

John: Oh, okay. The pictures.

Abhishek: Yes.

John: Okay. How about a favorite sports team?

Abhishek: So I don’t actually watch too many sports or any sports to be honest. That’s a fact. But if it’s a sport I do watch sometimes, that would be cricket in India.

John: Oh, okay. Do they have professional teams there?

Abhishek: Yeah, it’s one of the richest cricket leagues in the world or the richest cricket league in the world. I’m a fan of the local team, the Bangalore team.

John: Very cool. That’s awesome. Love it. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Abhishek: Star Wars very firmly.

John: Yeah, me too. Same. Same. Your computer, are you more of a PC or a Mac?

Abhishek: Mostly a Mac.

John: Oh, okay. All right. Fancy.

Abhishek: Yeah.

John: I’m not that fancy. I’m PC. Just very straightforward. How about a favorite place you’ve been on vacation?

Abhishek: That for me would be Tokyo, Japan.

John: Ah, yeah. Very cool. That’s awesome. That’s very, very fun. How about ice cream? I love ice cream. Do you have a favorite ice cream flavor?

Abhishek: That would be salted caramel, you know, classic.

John: So good. It’s that little twist. I mean, the salt for some reason in your brain, it thinks this isn’t gonna be good. And then you try it, you’re like, oh my goodness. That’s amazing.

Abhishek: Yeah.

John: Yeah. It makes it so much better. Makes it pop. How about a favorite animal? Any animal at all?

Abhishek: A favorite animal for me, I would say it would be like the walrus, the big giant walruses.

John: Yeah.

Abhishek: I find them just exceptionally cute and just very resilient and family oriented creatures. So, quite interesting and cool.

John: Yeah. And they got the whiskers and they’re all ready to go.

Abhishek: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John: That’s fun. Okay. Yeah, I love it. Okay. Do you prefer more hot or cold?

Abhishek: More hot. I’ve grown up in India, so I can take those sweat.

John: That’s what I figured.

Abhishek: But I can’t deal with the cold.

John: Right. I wasn’t sure if you just had enough and you’re like, you know what, let me eat cold, but nope. It’s like that’s what I’m used to. there you go. How about a favorite number?

Abhishek: Favorite number? Interesting. I have to make up something on the spot. So, maybe like 73.

John: Oh, okay. All right. Is there a reason?

Abhishek: No, not really. <laugh>.

John: Yeah. Well, I mean, they’re both great. 7 and 3 individually are great numbers. They add to 10. That’s awesome. So, why not? I love it. How about when it comes to books? Audio version, e-Book, or a real book?

Abhishek: e-Book for me. e-Book, and then an audiobook, and then a physical book.

John: Oh, okay. Last. Wow. All right.

Abhishek: Yeah.

John: All right. I like it. We got three more. Three more. How about a favorite Disney character or any animated character ’cause it seems like they’re all Disney these days?

Abhishek: Yeah. I think my favorite recent Disney character is the Mandalorian, if that counts as Disney.

John: Oh.

Abhishek: You know, Star Wars.

John: Yes, that counts. Totally. I’m positive.

Abhishek: I think.

John: Yeah. Very cool. How about a favorite day of the week?

Abhishek: Favorite day of the week, for me, that’s the Thursday.
John: Okay. Thursday. Interesting.
Abhishek: So, Thursdays are my low meeting days, and that’s my day to get a lot of focus going, prep for Friday which generally tends to be busy because it’s like the last day of the week, you know? And I know that the weekend is not far. So, Thursday is my favorite. Yeah.

John: Very good. Very good. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Abhishek: I would say the favorite thing that I own, it’s a statue by this artist. His name was Archimboldo. Archimboldo is this artist from the Renaissance. Italian artist. And he has this painting called The Librarian. And somebody made a statue of the librarian, converted that painting into like a real 3D object.

John: That is cool. So he took the painting and then turned it into a 3D object.

Abhishek: Yeah. And it’s called The Librarian. It’s basically a man who’s completely made out of books, which I really like because that’s sort of how I feel about myself. ’cause I’ve learned the most from books. I read a lot, and I connect with that character.

John: Yeah. The version of you would be made out of all Kindles instead of paper books.

Abhishek: Yeah. Exactly.

John: All eBooks.

Abhishek: Yeah.

John: That’s awesome, man. No, but that is a cool thing, man. I love it. That’s awesome. So let’s talk that pottery and I guess just creating with things with your hands in general. How did you get started with that? Is that something you did as a kid and then kept doing or got into later?

Abhishek: Not really. As a kid, I was into art, like a lot of painting, stitching, then music and dance. So I definitely used to be into arts because my mom is very much into arts, and she believed that every single person has to learn multiple arts. It doesn’t matter if you’re a girl or a guy. You have to just learn a bunch of different things. So, that’s how I got into it. But I lost touch with art when I went to college, when I went to university because everything just felt like fun and parties. So I wasn’t creating much art, but I did get back into it after I met my now wife. So she studied art. She studied commercial arts. So she’s very artistic. Almost everything that we have in our house is painted by her.

John: Oh, nice. Very cool. That’s fantastic. And because you knew some of that and you could relate, then it’s like “Hey, I’m not just a bookworm or a whatever.”

Abhishek: Yeah. Exactly.

Abhishek: It’s like “No, no, I get that stuff too.”

Abhishek: Yeah. ‘Cause there is a stereotypical Indian engineer, right, who’s just so focused on getting things done, and not taking holidays, and just being generally boring. So I’m definitely not even close to that. So, yeah. So the way I got into pottery was my wife got into pottery during the pandemic, and she really enjoyed just doing all of that. And I wasn’t so sure if pottery would be for me because I always thought pottery required a lot more finesse and a lot of skill to actually even start with it, but my wife convinced me that I should give it a shot. And the thing that really convinced me to give it a shot was a trip that I’d taken to SF, to San Francisco. This was about 2-1/2 years ago. And I was staying in an Airbnb, which was right next to a pottery studio.

So every day when I used to go out to get breakfast or lunch, I was always crossing that pottery studio. And one day, I just decided to go in and ask them, “Hey, can I do a class? How much is it gonna cost?” And when I heard the price, I realized like the price of a single class in SF is equivalent to like 15 classes in India. And that’s when it just hit me, hit me that I’m such a fool for not trying this out in Bangalore and considering it in SF. So, that really convinced me that I have to give it a shot because the price difference was just crazy. Yeah. So I got into pottery. That’s how I got started into it. And the first few classes were terrible ’cause I was not good at it. But you know, I started having fun and I really enjoyed the environment, just the general environment in the studio. And that’s how I got hooked.

John: Yeah. And you’re not supposed to be good at it, you know? I mean, first of all, it’s not your job, so who cares? But you know, it’s your first time or first three, four, five times. I mean, you know, like these are the first things that you’re creating, but you see progress, and it sounds like your wife’s encouraging and all that, and it’s fun. I mean, at the end of the day, you’re doing it for you.

You are not selling these things or putting them on display in a museum. It’s literally just “Hey, I’m exercising the creative side of my brain.”

Abhishek: Yeah.

John: And that’s fantastic.

Abhishek: Yeah. And it’s a great way to make friends. I also get to hang out with my wife a lot more because we are doing it together and just having more common friends. So, that’s really, really good.

John: That’s fantastic. And do you have a favorite thing or things that you’ve created?

Abhishek: So I’ve mostly been creating cylinders, which are tumblers, cups, and bowls. Bowls and plates. So those are the four things that I make. I really love making bowls. That’s my favorite thing. It’s also a lot more challenging than at least what I found cylinders or plates to be. And the thing that I really like about pottery— Have you ever tried pottery?

John: I have, but it has been a long time. That’s for sure. What was amazing to me is how just one little subtle movement creates a groove or a thing and it’s like “Whoa!” Just the smallest movement as it’s spinning around, it’s fun to do and it just forms right there in front of you. It’s neat. But yeah, but it’s been a long time, that’s for sure. I prefer the Bangalore rates, I think, for pottery classes. So, maybe I’ll come over there. It probably evens out.

Abhishek: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You absolutely should. So, one of the things that I love about pottery is it forces you to focus because clay remembers every single moment of distraction while you are making it. You know, you can’t remove it. You thought about something else for a second and boom. Like there’s a scratch or there’s a mark that you didn’t want or the wall is slightly thinner, but it wasn’t supposed to be.

John: And then we gotta start all over. We’re going to fix it or whatever. Yeah.

Abhishek: Yeah, yeah.

John: Yeah. That’s a great point.

Abhishek: So like 3, 4 hours, you don’t have your phone with you and you’re only focused on what’s right in front of you. I’ve heard people say it’s meditative. I definitely found pottery in the early days to be stressful. So I wouldn’t call it meditative or calming, but it did help me focus and it did help me stay completely focused on what I’m doing right now instead of thinking about what’s gonna come later or what did I just experience before.

John: No, that’s so true. I’m sure it’s calming if you remove yourself from the outcome if you’re like “Eh, I don’t even care what it looks like or if it’s even a bowl” like by the end, then it’s probably calming ’cause then it doesn’t matter. It’s not outcome based. But I could see how it would be stressful. I would be stressed ’cause it’s like “Well, I want it to be this thing.” And I would imagine it’s hard to know when it’s done ’cause it’s like “Oh, I wanna do this, I wanna do this, I wanna add…” And at some point, you gotta be like “Hey, we gotta put it in the kiln and fire it up. Like we gotta stop.”

Abhishek: Yeah. Exactly. I gotta stop—

John: That’s gotta be hard.

Abhishek: …messing with it now.

John: Right. Yeah. Exactly. That’s awesome. It sounds like there’s a lot of this, but any of these skills that translate to work as a CEO?

Abhishek: Yeah, absolutely. I think the main thing as a CEO is that I’m a manager of people and manager of other managers. So on a day-to-day basis, I create emails. That sort of is my job. I create emails and I create sound. So it can feel a little bit hollow because I work with a lot of engineers and designers, and I look at their work, and I love the fact that they can put in 6 hours or 7 hours into one particular thing and create something amazing versus, in my case, I’m so totally reliant on other people to do all of that. It sort of like made me feel like my job wasn’t as important as other people think it is. And that’s when I realized “Hey, I think I need to get some hard skills, and I need to do something where I’m not competing and where I am doing everything on my own and I’m not telling anybody else to do something.”

John: Yeah.

Abhishek: So I play a lot of board games, and I do pottery, and I do carpentry. Woodworking. So these are sort of the three things that I do on weekends.

John: That’s fantastic, man. Well, I mean, I think it’s great too that you recognized like, you know, hey, I feel a lack in this area. Like I feel, you know, like you said, hollow in a certain area and I need to fill that in. And it doesn’t have to be filled in with a work-related thing. There’s so many sides to you that the work side of you is a really small part. There’s all these other dimensions to you, and you have to fill those in too and nourish those. And good for you for seeing that. That’s great.

Abhishek: Yeah. That’s so critical. And I think that’s what I love about your show, which is so focused on exploring that ’cause there are so many podcasts just focused on the hostile culture like constantly succeeding and the focus on succeeding. You’re stressed out on competing. And that’s one of the things I loved about pottery. So I used to be stressed when I started. But over time, I realized I’m not competing with anybody.

Nobody expects anything out of this. I don’t have to earn a living making pottery. And that really changed my attitude to how I looked at it. That’s something I bring back to work as well because when I deal with somebody who’s going through a frustrating time, unable to succeed at something, I sort of have to just remind them that, you know, in the real world, stuff takes time. You do need to have real skills and not everything is just gonna come naturally to you. So it’s certainly made me a lot more patient as a manager and as a CEO. It also helps me understand how much focused time somebody needs because as a manager, it’s very easy for you to interrupt somebody, just go ask for their time and attention. And it’s very easy for you to do that. But in pottery, I know for a fact that somebody distracts me even for like 5 seconds, just calls my name out, that’s gone. That bowl is gone.

John: Right. Yeah. That’s such a great point, man. You know, it’s almost like all managers should have to take pottery because then it’s like, “What are you doing? Like you’re ruining everything.”

Abhishek: Yeah. Exactly.

John: It’s so easy to just not be in their shoes or not empathize with those people that are doing the work. Yeah, that’s fantastic. What a great parallel, man. I love it. That’s awesome. Is this something that you talk about at work whether it’s the pottery, or the carpentry, or even the board games? Do coworkers and colleagues know about this?

Abhishek: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. So a bunch of my coworkers, they got into pottery. You know, my coworkers who live in Bangalore. So, that was really good. They really got into it. And I’m so happy that they appreciate it as much as I do. And I definitely don’t talk about lessons from pottery for sure. That’s probably the first time I’ve ever—

John: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah.

Abhishek: …explained it.

John: Yeah. They don’t need to know that.

Abhishek: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John: Yeah, it’s a thing. Yeah. But that’s even better. Not only is it a thing, but they came and they got into it too.

Abhishek: Yeah. Yeah.

John: And so, now I would imagine that— I mean, going back several years before that, are things different? Are the conversations different? Are the depths of relationship different now that you have that common?

Abhishek: Very much so. Because one of the things is like friendships are built on shared experiences. And that’s why I think at work you can’t have friends, but you just have a different experience when you’re learning something together at the same level. Right? Because at pottery, I’m not their CEO. I’m at the pottery studio. I’m just yet another student who’s sitting beside them and struggling just like they are all having fun, you know. So, that did create a different experience for me because as a CEO, you tend to be a little bit lonely because you can’t always hang out with your coworkers, and they don’t wanna hang out with you after work.

John: They totally do not.

Abhishek: So I use pottery and board games as a way of luring people into my house or hanging out somewhere.

John: Right. Yeah. But I love it ’cause it’s the human side to you. It’s hard to remember when we were 22 and coming out of college or university. And the CEO, or the partner, or the whatever like was super intimidating. Whether you are as a person or not, the title alone is something that people then equate to you. And it’s great that you’re coming down from that and being like “No, no, I’m just a guy. Look, I’m just a guy that likes to do other things too. And my job at the company is this, but I also do these other things.” And that’s really cool that you open yourself up to that. And I find sometimes too it’s the vulnerability. It’s your ability to say, “Hey, I’m not good at this. Come watch me be not good at this.”

Abhishek: Yeah.

John: Like that’s hard for—

Abhishek: Let’s suck together.

John: …a leader to say. Yeah, right? Yeah, let’s suck together. I love it. That’s so great. Yeah. ‘Cause why not? But at work, we’re not sucking at anything. But like at pottery, we’re all learning. I love it, man. And how much is it on an organization or leadership do you feel to create that space for people to share their “and” or how much is it on the individual to just maybe in their little small circle of peers just start talking about it?

Abhishek: So we are a fully remote team. Yeah. Everybody works from home.

John: Oh, wow.

Abhishek: Yeah. So we are a fully remote team. So this sort of sharing about your hobbies, your life, it has to be intentional. So we have like dedicated Slack channels where people share some of the work that they’re doing. Some people are musicians, some people are gamers, others like to do photography. Just lots of varied people. One of the things that I have noticed though because I have hobbies— So I do like to work with people who also have hobbies. And I like to be friends with people who also have hobbies. That’s just something that I’ve seen that I just get along well with people who don’t take one aspect of their life too seriously.

Look at it as a whole and love to play and not just be serious about it. So I think like, yeah, at Appsmith, I believe like most people have hobbies. They do something or the other. Something that’s interesting. And that as a culture we do encourage because I as a CEO, I’m telling people that “Hey, on Saturdays and Sundays, I go do pottery, or I do woodworking, or I’m playing games. I’m not replying to emails.” So I’m definitely leading that by example that be productive through the day, through the week, be focused, get the work done. And that’s enough for you to go and do really well.

John: Yeah. I love that so much, man. And it’s such a great example so then people don’t feel scared or it’s a trap. “He said go do things, but no, no, he’s doing them too.” And you’re sharing it. And I love it so much, man. That’s so great. I wish more leaders would just do that by default. Such a great example for everybody listening. And this has been so much fun, Abhishek. And I feel like since I so rudely asked you so many questions at the beginning, that we should turn the tables and we make this the Abhishek Nayak podcast. And I’m now the guest. You are the host. Whatever questions you wanna ask me, I’m all yours.

Abhishek: Great. So I haven’t read your book. I was wondering, why did you write a book? It’s hard, right, writing a book, like—

John: It’s so hard. It’s funny ’cause I speak at a lot of conferences. And so, I was speaking about this message that there’s a human there with other dimensions to who they are. And to help organizations, you should shine a light on these other sides of the people ’cause that’s what really lights up their soul. There’s more to a person than your job. And people would come up and say, “Hey, my manager really needs to hear this. Do you have a book? ‘Cause I can’t tell them properly, do you have a book for me to give them to read?” And I was like “Who writes books? Like old people. I’m not like a professor or like whatever.”

So after enough people asked, I was like “Well, this book needs to get written.” And it’s not a book that’s already out there. I think there’s a lot of books, and I don’t wanna write another book that’s the same as already ones that are out there. It’s too hard to do when it already exists. So, that’s really why, was to be able to then have people share the message with others that weren’t able to see me speak at a conference or whatever, to have people be able to get the message in a little bit of a different way. And so, that’s really why I wrote the book.

And it’s been cool to see how this plays out ’cause it’s different for each company. What works at Appsmith isn’t gonna work at a company down the street or a company in another country or Appsmith in the US versus Appsmith in India. You know, like it’s just gonna be a different office, different vibe. And so, it’s cool to see how it plays out in the world without me having to direct exactly what to do. But writing a book is very hard. It’s super hard.

Abhishek: Yeah. Well, congratulations.

John: No, thank you man. Thank you.

Abhishek: I have a second question. What was your first ever job?

John: My first ever job, so when I was in elementary school, I delivered newspapers. I would ride my bike with a bag. Like the local newspaper outside of Dayton, Ohio, in Bellbrook, Ohio. And I would deliver newspapers. And then I had to go around each month with a little punch card on a ring for each person to collect their payment for the newspaper. And then I would punch the card for how much they had paid in advance. And that was my first ever job. Yeah. We would get the newspapers like early in the morning. And I would have to wake up, and go, and count ’em out, and roll ’em, and get ’em all sorted and put in my bag, and then go ride my bike around and deliver the papers. And it was a once a week newspaper.

Abhishek: Elementary school. Does that mean you were like 6, 7 years old?

John: No, no, no. I was older. So, that was probably like fifth grade, maybe sixth grade. So maybe like what is that? Probably like 12 maybe. 11 or 12 years old. That was the first like getting paid outside of like doing chores at your house and your parents give you like a dollar, you know. Yeah, getting paid from someone else to do work.

Abhishek: Yeah. And that sort of is the age when you begin to think about money. Right? How do I get more money for myself?

John: Exactly. I wanna buy this stuff and my parents won’t buy it for me.

Abhishek: Yeah.

John: And so, I’ll go outside the family to get my money and buy my Star Wars character or whatever I wanted at the time.

Abhishek: What was the first thing that you bought? Do you remember?

John: I don’t recall, but I feel like it was a Bruce Springsteen cassette. Born in the USA had just come out. I know that that was the first music thing that I purchased, was a Bruce Springsteen Born in the USA cassette tape. That’s how old I am. Cassette tapes.

Abhishek: And they used to be expensive, right? Music used to be expensive.

John: Right? Yeah. Before the internet.

Abhishek: Yeah. And you had to listen to the whole album. You couldn’t just get—

John: Right? And especially with cassettes, yeah.

When CDs came out, it was like “Oh, I can just go right to the song I want.” Cassettes, it’s like “Nope, you gotta listen to the whole thing.” And albums came out as 12 songs and they were all pretty good. And now, it’s one at a time and the music’s free. But if you wanna go to the concert, woo! That’s where they’re making their money. Yeah. And it’s expensive.

Abhishek: Yeah.

John: So, that took me back. That was good. You’re a good podcast host. I like this. This is fun.

Abhishek: You have a replacement if you ever want a break.

John: Right? There we go. You’re my backup. There we go. I love it. That’s awesome. Well, thank you so much, Abhishek, for being a part of What’s Your “And?” This was really, really fun.

Abhishek: Thank you for having me, John, and asking all those questions. I’m really hoping that more CEOs and founders get into hobbies. It helps with mental health, and it does help you run a company better.

John: And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Abhishek’s work, or maybe connect with him on social media, or follow Appsmith, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click the big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to check out the book. So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 569 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional, who just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work.

To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work. It’s the answering the question, who else are you besides the job title?

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture.

And I can’t say how much it means that everyone is reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Troy Pepper. He’s a People Operations Manager with Crowe. And now, he’s with me here today.

Troy, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?.

Troy: What’s going on, John? Good to see you, man. Glad to be on the show.

John: No, this is going to be so much fun. I’m so excited to get into this. It’s going to be a blast. But, I do have rapid-fire questions, get to know Troy out of the gate here. So, hope you’re buckled in. Here we go.

This might be an easy one. How about a favorite color?

Troy: Favorite color, I would say I like black.

John: Black. Okay. Solid, it goes with everything, right?

Troy: Yeah, everything.

John: Everything. How about a least favorite color?

Troy: Least favorite color, I would say – my daughter would hate me, but I hate pink. I can’t stand it.

John: Right. Just being honest, man, just being honest.

Troy: I guess little girls and – there’s a lot going on in the house of the Pepper household, man.

John: I hear you, man. I can understand.

How about a favorite season, summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Troy: Summer time, man. I love the summer. Love it.

John: How about when it comes to puzzles, Sudoku, crossword, jigsaw puzzle, or Wordle I guess is the new big one?

Troy: Crossword. I’m old school.

John: Okay. All right. There you go.

Ooh, I’m not sure on this one, suit and tie or jeans and a t-shirt?

Troy: Surprisingly, I like suit and tie, man.

John: Yeah. That’s why – me too.

Troy: Before this podcast call, I just ordered a new pinstripe blue one. So, yeah, I like suits, man.

John: Well, especially now you can get that like made-to-measure look. You know, it’s not often like looks tight. Yeah. No, I hear you.

How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Troy: My favorite actor of all time would be Denzel Washington.

John: Oh, yeah.

Troy: He doesn’t miss, man, he doesn’t miss.
John: No, he doesn’t. I bet he’s like student film like the days like he’s like very first audition it’s like, you’re the best, like it’s like…

Troy: And he’s one of the legends, one of the goats, man, and…

John: Oh, totally.

Troy: You can’t go wrong with Denzel, man.

John: No one can debate that, like nobody.

Troy: Anytime you can go just by your first name, Denzel, you knew who I was talking about.

John: Yeah, exactly. You’re on Oprah level.

Troy: Yeah, Oprah level.

John: Star Wars or Star Trek?

Troy: Star Wars.

John: Yeah, the same, same.

For your computer, PC or a Mac?

Troy: PC guy.

John: PC? Yeah, me too.

Oh, I’m a huge ice cream junkie. Ice cream in a cup or in a cone?

Troy: I’m going to go cup. I like to put my Oreos and my, yeah, I got to go cup.

John: Good point, man. You get more stuff in the cup.

Troy: More stuff. It’s less mess, you know, it’s melting, but it turns into a milkshake afterwards, so, you know.

John: You’re right. Solid answer.

Sunrises or sunsets?

Troy: I’m a morning person, so I like sunrises. I like sunrise.

John: That’s early.

This is an important one. Toilet paper roll, over or under?

Troy: Over, everything else is just weird.

John: Some people on here, they’re like, I change it when I’m at my friend’s house and they got it wrong, I flip it around. I’m like, wow, okay, that’s the next level of caring.

Oh, this is a fun one. Favorite animal? Any animal at all?

Troy: Oh, dog, man, dog.

John: Dog, okay.

Troy: I got a dog. I got one behind me right now. His name is Nike and I got another dog, his name is Reebok and I love them both.

John: That’s so great.

Troy: Yeah, Nike, Reebok, man. Because we’re outnumbered, man. I got two girls and I have no son, so these are my boys.

John: There you go. All right. Solid. I like it, Nike and Reebok. That’s fantastic. Yeah. My dog’s name is Rocket after Rocket Ismael, so…

Troy: There we go. All right, I can dig that name. I like it.

John: It’s a cool name, like it’s like, yeah, you get to yell out, you know, like, “Reebok! Get over here.” It’s like, what?

Troy: Yeah.

John: It would be great if it was like when I was a kid, we had the all white Reeboks, like it’s all white dog, like school Reeboks, like it’s like…

John: That’s why he is a Reebok. That’s funny.

Ooh, it’s a good one. Now, you know, you’re in the people operations, more people or processes?
Troy: People.

John: People?

Troy: It’s where it’s at, right?

John: It’s more complicated and it’s a lot harder, but it’s…

Troy: Yeah. It’s more complicated, but I think you can have a special patience for them for sure.

John: Yeah. Yeah, you do. You really do.

How about a least favorite vegetable?

Troy: Asparagus is terrible.

John: Solid answer. Yes, one hundred percent. You can’t even put bacon on it and make it good.

Troy: Yeah, it’s just, nah, I can’t eat it.

John: Amen.

How about a favorite number?

Troy: Favorite number? Man, I would say 7. You can’t go wrong with lucky number 7.

John: Yeah, it’s lucky. It’s a popular number that’s for sure.

Troy: It’s completion. It means a lot, right? It means a lot.

John: Exactly. Amen. Two more.

When it comes to books, audio version, ebook, or the real book?

Troy: Man, so I transition, man. I used to be more of a hard copy, but I feel like audios are just more convenient for me. Driving at the airport, it’s just audiobooks, man, I like them.

John: No, exactly. I’m not sure if I retain as much information, but I get enough information.

Troy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, I do both. I do both.

John: Yeah. Because the paperback is like, well, I might not finish, so, you know, like at least with the audio, I’m going to make it to the end probably.
And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Troy: Favorite thing I have I would say a picture of me with Tony Dungy and my dad.

John: Oh, wow! That’s awesome.

Troy: And the back story behind that is this was a picture I was taking in middle school, I was 12 or 13.

John: Okay.

Troy: He had a nonprofit called All Pro Dad. And, at that time he was the coach for the Colts, right? And they had an essay competition to write about your dad. So, they had three winners, elementary, middle school, and high school. And, I wrote about my dad, my brother wrote about the same guy, but I won.

And, we won an all inclusive trip, a fishing trip in Tampa, Florida with Tony Dungy and his family. Three days, it was on a yacht, ate like kings. It was one of the most amazing experiences I’ve ever had in my life.

And one fun fact is we’re on a yacht and that morning, I ate a big breakfast. We get on a yacht, I’ve never been in the ocean just waiting for hours. I’m trying to reel my fish in, Tony Dungy is next to me and, man, I threw up and a little bit got on him. And he was like, “Troy, are you okay?” I was like, I’m just throwing up, Tony Dungy is right there. His family is looking at me like, this sick kid threw up on the yacht, but they will never forget me.

I ran into him, man, because this was like 2001. And I ran into him in 2013 and he remembered me. And he was like…

John: That’s incredible.

Troy: We were on the — I said, “Yeah.” He said, “I remember you. You threw up.” I said, “Yes, I’m that guy who threw up.” So, at least he remembered and we had a good time.

John: I’m glad that you didn’t lead with that as your “and”, I’m Troy Pepper and I like to vomit.

John: But, it’s like…

Troy: I like to vomit on a Hall of Fame coaches.

John: Right, on Hall of Fame coaches. I actually used to live in Indianapolis and when I did Big Brothers Big Sisters and once my little brother, Jack, and I were in Dick’s Sporting Goods like in east side of Indianapolis and Tony Dungy was in there with his son, who’s probably your age. And we just went up and we’re like, “Hey, just want to say hi.” Like that was it, like we didn’t ge weird or anything. It was probably before cell phone pictures were a thing.

Troy: Yeah. Yeah.

John: But, super nice guy, man. That’s incredible, that’s very cool. Plus, there’s a story behind it. It’s not just a picture of you ran into him in a Dick’s and took a picture.

Troy: Yeah. This was a whole picture, man and it was an awesome trip, awesome trip.

John: That’s awesome. Plus, I mean, you got to be your dad’s favorite now, so it’s like clearly…

Troy: I definitely am. I have two other brothers and I told them their lives are cool, but mine is great.

John: Right. Right. There you go. That’s awesome, man.

Well, let’s talk being an NBA PA announcer, like how do you get started in that, man, like that’s incredible?

Troy: For as how I got started, let’s go back. So, further paces, I’ve been doing PA announcing for I’ve done it for years at local level, maybe high school, AU tournament. You know, there’s got to be there because originally I wanted to go to school to be a broadcaster and I saw how much money they didn’t make…

John: Right.

Troy: And changed my major and I said, let’s go to computer science, and that’s kind of what I stick to. But, I did broadcasting all through high school and stuff. I wanted to be an anchor. I’ve always had a voice, I’ve always wanted to be the sideline, “Hi. This is Troy Pepper. Channel 6 News.” Like, I’ve always wanted to do that.

But, it’s crazy how life, you know, puts everything back in perspective as far as your passion. And I always just did it on the side and here’s the story how I got the Pacers gig. I was golfing with my best friend and we were in Eagle Creek area. You might remember that area.

John: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Troy: Where the golf course is. This is 2001 September. And he tells me, “Hey, the PA job for the Pacers is open.” I said, “Really? He said, “You should apply for it.” I was like, “All right. Send me the link.” He never sent me the link.

And that Sunday, I just happen to say, “Let me just look it up.” The auditions were cut off that day within like four hours. I was like, I was in the bed like, “Should I do this now? There’s too many people, they’re not going to pick me.” Some told me this, “Let’s just do it.”

So, I get up, go to my little office, get my stuff ready. It’s a video recording. You have to record yourself doing the intros and a script they prepared for you. I did all that. I submitted it. That next week, they said, “You’ll know who the finalist is by that next Friday.”

I looked at my email and didn’t see nothing, so I go golfing again with the same guy, David Wales, my best friend. And he said, “Did they get back with you?” I said, “No, man.” I said, “Man, it’s probably a thousand people that submitted video. No one’s going to see Troy Pepper.”

And we’re on the ninth hole – no, the sixth hole and I looked at my phone, something said, “Troy, check your spam folder, John.” I had five emails from VP of Operations, the President of Operations, “Troy, submit a finalist video. You’re at the top four.”

And I said, “Yo!” And I said, “I got to go, brother.” Because I had to catch a flight the next morning because we’re going to Disney World, right? With my best friend and his family and my family are going to Disney World in about twelve hours.

I was home, man, I’ve recorded the finalist video, I’m like, “I’m final four? What?” And they said that next Friday you’ll find out. Well, they said that next week you’ll find out who won. And we’re at Magic Kingdom, we’re at Animal Kingdom, I mean, we’re doing the Hollywood Studios, overpriced silver mirrors for my girls and I’m looking at my phone the whole time like, “Man, they say nothing, man.” Checking the spam folder and my wife is, “Just wait ‘til Friday, they’ll reach out.” I said, “Okay.”

We’re leaving Magic Kingdom, man, I get a call, 317, and I’m thinking it’s what? And I’m like, “Hey, this is Troy Pepper.” “Hey, Troy. This is Dean with the Indiana Pacers.” I paused, sweated. I said, “Yes?” “I want to let you know that you have won the position, the PA announcer position. Is this something you’re interested in?” I thought I put the phone on mute, but I didn’t. I screamed so loud.

John: That so great.

Troy: Oh, my God!

John: Right.

Troy: I said, “I bet you heard all that.” He’s like, “Yeah.” I said, “Man, I’m so hype.” He told the position is mine. It was like I won the lottery because, man, it’s a prestigious position of I won of maybe 31 people in the world.

John: Yeah, right.

Troy: And get to announce this type of game. And that’s kind of the whole story, man, of how I got…

John: That’s incredible. And you did the reverse, like you went to Disney World and then, got the position, I guess like…

Troy: Exactly, man.

John: If you want the stuff to happen in your life, everybody, go to Disney World because it will happen.

Troy: Disney does it big. I mean, I spent so much money in Disney, but it was worth it, man.

John: Right. I know, that’s incredible, man. What a great story and what a way to be like, you know what? Who cares? Like, why not? Like, what do you got to lose, right?

Troy: Nothing to lose, man. It just shows you the power of a choice. I had a choice to say, nah, four hours, they’re not going to pick me, there’s no point of me submitting. But, just having that something gut feeling and going by your gut and just making that one choice can change your whole life.

John: I love that, man. So, you’ve been doing that since then?

Troy: Yeah. So, since – it was my second season with the Indiana Pacers, man.

John: That’s incredible, man. That’s awesome. And do you have any like cooler like moments? Because I mean, this isn’t just the intro, I mean, this is – well, I mean I remember, so I’m back in the day when Jordan and, you know, the Bulls intro was legendary and doo doo roo do, you know what I mean, all that.

And so, I mean, of course you’re that guy now, like that’s incredible, but also like during the game as well, you know, it’s heating up, you know, or whatever like type, you know, NBA jam style or whatever.

Troy: No, it is, man. And I think the coolest thing about it is just I’m a fan period, I’m an NBA junkie. I love the game, I love the Pacers, I’m a die hard. And to get the position and being a fan first is the greatest day because every night, you know, I’m announcing for 15,000-plus, man. And I get to be a part of their experience.
And, one cool thing I will say about I tell most people is is when I get to the arena early, I have a game tonight, I’m leaving in a few and there’s an empty arena and I go half court and I look up at the banners, I look around and I still get goose bumps almost every game.

I always want a court side seat, but, you know, my parents weren’t rich, you know, we weren’t getting those and I love basketball, but I wasn’t that good at it. But, to be in the NBA, using my voice rather than my dribbles and my shot is one of the most amazing coolest things ever.

And then, another rewarding part I will say is just to be the voice of the Pacers and help 15,000 people experience the game.

And I think of it like this, John, out of 15,000-plus people there on games, it’s going to be somebody’s first time ever at an NBA game. And I’m responsible, you know, for them having a great experience because I’ll tell you this, my first NBA game I’ve ever went to, it was a Pacers game, I couldn’t even tell you who we are playing. I don’t remember the score, but I remember the smell of the popcorn. I remember eating a pretzel. I remember hearing and then I remember some deep voice announcing with excitement and I’m like I get to be a part of somebody’s first time experiencing that. I think it’s the coolest and the most rewarding thing about it.

John: Yeah, man. I love all that so much. And now, you don’t take it for granted, like because you were the kid in the stands, like that was you, like – and you weren’t on court side like you weren’t like, you know, board on third base-kind of thing. I mean, I saying, wait, like every opportunity I get, I’m like, what? This is crazy, like this is nuts.

But then, on the flipside, it’s like, you know what? I earned this and I’m good enough for this and I deserve this. So, like it’s a weird seesaw there that you have to balance. For sure, I can totally relate.

And you’re right, I mean, you know, you’re a part of people’s lives. Like people you’ve never met and maybe will never meet. And like you’re impacting their life for the better and that’s so cool, man, like all because you got out of bed and threw in the video. I love it, man. That’s so fantastic. It’s so deep.

And so, does any of these translate to work at all?

Troy: Yeah. I believe so, man, because being in this position and the Pacers they’ve marketed me on their website and on their social media, so my face has been out there. And I met a lot of great people and I always tell people this, I think it’s helped my networking and my people skills because every game is a networking event for me.

I get there early in courtside, I’m shaking hands with CEOs, the CFOs, owners of Arby’s and like I’m a social guy, I got to network events all the time trying to brush up my skills, the people skill the stuff and I think this definitely help me really showcase how important people skills are.

And because, you know, I was an engineer for Crowe, my current company for two years and I just transitioned into management for people operations. And I believe PA job and being in that Pacers environment, it really helped me honing on my people skills, which kind of got me my position now because unlike technical skills that maybe relevant for, you know, a company or your industry or even just a period of time, people skills is a lifetime value I believe.

And the ability to communicate well and then collaborate with others, you know, I believe will never lose its power of being relevant, because regardless of the industry, trends, you know, that trends come and go for industries, but I believe that having that personal level and those people skill is so universally useful and they help me transition from being a senior product engineer into now managing people operations and I believe it just – it really just help my transition a hundred percent.

John: Yeah. Two parts of that. First of all, tax people are people? Like wait a minute.

John: I’m an auditor back in the days, so that’s like, wait, there’s humans there? What? Like…

Troy: Yeah. They’re not robots, man, they have lives and they have an “and”.

John: But the second thing is like you’re so right and it’s so frustrating because no on teaches us that, like at no point in your education of getting an engineering degree did they teach you the people skills. They also didn’t tell you go be a PA announcer, it will make you better at your job. But these things always make you better, always.

Troy: Always make you better. And the flipside is like, you know, most people computer science, they’re not really social. You know, most people just call and I love the tech side of, but I’m so social. People don’t believe that I’m like was a senior product engineer, like you’re in tech? You know, you’re like, I would say my team a very just kind introvert, honestly.

John: Sure. But, there’s something to them that’s awesome. You know, there’s a human side to all of them. Like, no, the most introverted techy nerdy whatever you want to call it job description, there’s something that lights them up and part of it is coding, but maybe something else, you know. And it’s one hundred percent okay for it to be something else also, you know, like it does not all work all the time, it’s – there’s other things.

And I love that, man. That’s so good because like you were saying like you get promoted within Crowe, you worked somewhere else before Crowe or after this. Like your PA announcing, your NBA passion is always there, but the technical skills that you use have totally changed. So, really the eye of the hurricane your source of confidence comes from like your “and” and that’s the first thing that we brush aside.

And it’s like, no, no, no, like that should be front and center, that should be the lead, like don’t – I don’t care what your job is, what lights you up? Like, you know, type of thing.

I love that, man. Just to hear that you’re experiencing that and living that, you know, everyday. It’s so cool, so cool.

And how much do you feel like it’s on an organization to create that space for people being able to share their “ands” and shine a light on it or how much is it on the individual?

Troy: I think for work environment, I think it’s both. I feel like every company should thrive for people to be comfortable in certain settings to showcase, you know, what they are really passionate about. And I believe it comes down, you know, I wouldn’t expect that from the CEO, but your direct management should be able to have chats about other stuff other than work.

Some of the greatest leaders that I’ve been under, I’ve known them personally based on their interest outside of work. Even with clients, man, I was client facing as far as being a senior product engineer and they somehow Google my name, I’m working on a project and like, wait, hey, that’s right, this off the topic. Do you work for the Pacers? Like, that right there opens a whole another conversation.

But, I believe it’s on the person as well and if the person feels comfortable in an environment, no, I believe they’ll show their personality, then when their personally show, they’ll show their interest and stuff they do outside of work.

I think it goes hand-in-hand, making that employee feel comfortable, but it’s on their labor and their team to really produce that type of environment.

John: I love it so much and you’re so right. I mean, you know, just lead by example, be a little bit vulnerable as the leader and then, magic, you know. And asking you is not off topic, that’s actually on topic finally.

Troy: You’ll be shocked in like a lot of the conversation has really helped my I call social capital or it’s like people I know. Even in my company, my company is pretty big. I think we have like 6,000 employees globally. I get messages from CFOs that under different divisions in our company, I don’t know who they are at all, but they saw my LinkedIn, they’re like, wait a minute, I saw you on the news. You work for us? And then, I got a whole new relationship with somebody I would have never knew unless my “and” was displayed.

John: So awesome. So awesome. Well, this has been so great, Troy, and so fantastic and I appreciate you taking time to be on.

But, I feel like before we wrapped up since I so rudely fired questions at you, I feel like we should turn the tables and make this the Troy Pepper Podcast and I’ll be your first guest. Thanks for booking me. Actually, I booked myself, so anyway.
Troy: Well, John, so, I’ll be taking over your podcast, you are now fired.

Troy: It’s to go another level.

John: That’s a people operations manager coming out right here. That’s what that is.

Troy: Your severance package won’t be much, but you will get a coupon.

John: I get a Pacers shirt and I’m out, like that’s it and Arby’s coupon.

Troy: Oh, I got the rapid-fire. Okay. Texting or calling?

John: Calling. Yeah, like I – I mean, if there’s like three back and forth on text, I’m calling you because it’s like this would take 30 seconds on the phone, like I don’t have time for this.

Troy: If somebody replied with a whole email of text message, I’m like, dude, just call me back.

John: Yeah. And it’s like I just imagine how long it took you to text this.

Troy: I know, especially when it have emojis and like the punctuations are on point, I’m like, dude, this takes…

Troy: You just wrote a book. Post this, you have a book, like, man.

John: There you go. If you got a semicolon in your text, you better call me.

Troy: You actually wrote out laugh out loud? Come on, man.

John: Actually, a block number, block number, like it’s a —

Troy: All right, favorite day of the week?

John: Favorite day of the week? You know, I think I’m going to go Saturday. I’m a huge college football fan, Saturdays are my days growing up cartoons Saturdays like I just, yeah, I think Saturdays, they’re solid. Because there’s like nothing, it’s like your day, you can do whatever you want. You know, there’s not church on Sunday, there’s not work Monday through Friday, it’s like, you know what? Just for me Saturday, yeah.

Troy: I got three more questions, I’m going to let you go.

John: Okay. All right.

Troy: Would you rather be able to speak every language in the world or be able to talk to animals?

John: Oh, man. You know what? I think I’m going to talk to animals.

John: Because, I mean, just like that Eddie Murphy Dr. Doolittle, like I just want to know, like I kind of don’t care what people are thinking, like I really don’t. Like I mean, even the ones that tell you it’s like I didn’t ask, I don’t care. But, animals, I kind of want to know. Like, what are you thinking?

Troy: That’s a tough one. Man, I would – I’ll pick the language, man. I would love to speak and read every language, oh. And I can read like some of these ancient texts in the History channel…

John: Oh, okay. All right. All right.

Troy: Yeah, I think about this question a lot. I think about it.

John: Yeah. But, I just feel like animals like they just have such a different perspective, like dolphins under the ocean, like birds, like…

Troy: You know what? You could ask a whale, yo, is there anything deeper down there that I need to know?

John: Right. Then, we don’t have to go.

Troy: He’s like, yeah, Poseidon is real.

John: What?

Troy: Where is Atlantis? Oh, follow me. Okay. Cool.
John: It’s that easy, you just got to ask.

What else you got for me?

Troy: Who was your first celebrity crush?

John: First celebrity crush? Wow, that’s a good question. I feel like just in general, Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders, like all of them.

Troy: I was not expecting that, man, but that’s good.

John: I feel like that would probably be – because I mean growing up, we move all the time, my dad was air force, so this was the old Cowboys like Danny White and Herschel Walker and Tony Dorsett and like Tom Landry was the coach and like way back.

So, as a kid, I mean, I guess that would probably be probably that, I don’t know.

Troy: You can’t go wrong with Cowboys, truly you can’t go wrong.

John: Yeah. Yeah. It was like, I don’t know, like back in the day.

Troy: That’s hilarious. Mine was Jennifer Lopez that I have a crush, still is. I can’t even lie, still is. She’s like 50 something and still looks I don’t understand. What is she – I don’t know what she’s drinking.

John: That’s still your celebrity crush, like that hasn’t – that’s also your “and” like that’s not changed.

Troy: My wife, hers is Michael B. Jordan and I can’t stand that, man.

John: Yeah. Well, anytime you got to put the middle initial, come on.

Troy: Yeah. Michael B. Jordan and you know the new Creed movie is coming up pretty soon and I don’t want her to go. I don’t want her.

Troy: He will take his shirt off…

John: You have to be chaperoned by Troy.

Troy: Yeah, exactly.

John: That’s the only way.
Troy: Exactly, man.

Last question for you, man. What age do you want to retire and then, what will you be doing?

John: Oh, man. You know, I feel like I’m kind of lifelong learner and I feel like part of the work that I do is, so, yeah, I mean, I certainly in another phase of my career I guess. So, yeah, I don’t know like, I mean, to straight up retire like just stop doing this. Yeah, I don’t know, that’s going to be hard to do. But, I certainly want to at some point.

I don’t know, let’s say, yeah, let’s be aggressive and let’s say 55 and then, that way then you’re able to like still live life. And I think traveling is high on the list, man. I mean, I love traveling anyway and learning how to talk to animals I think is also what I’m going to be doing.

Troy: And that’s the comedian in your to bring that back. That’s skill, that’s skill right there.

John: That’s a callback right there. That’s a call back right there.

Troy: I like that.

John: That’s what it is. That’s what it is.

But, thank you so much, Troy. This has been so much fun. I appreciate you being a part of this.

Troy: Yeah. It’s been a pleasure, man. Thank you for having me, man, and if you ever have a repeat customer, let me know and we’ll make it go to do, man.

John: Yeah. Next time I’m in Indie, man, we’ll definitely hang out. That’s for sure.

And everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Troy in action or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there.

And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to read the book.

So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends, so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do