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Welcome to Episode 391 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. It’s out now.

The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture, and I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Sam Ovett. He’s the founder of Mobile Pocket Office, and now he’s with me here today. Sam, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Sam: Hey, John, it’s good to be here. I will say, it just snowed 10 inches at the house, so there’s some skiing to be had. You’re actually not that far down the road. So, after this, I may have to get some lunch laps in at the resort, eight miles from our house.

John: That’s awesome, man. I’m super jealous that I can’t wait to talk more about this, but first, I have these rapid-fire questions, get to know Sam right out of the gate here. This is going to be fun. Do you have a favorite color?

Sam: Blue.

John: Blue. Okay, mine too. How about a least favorite color?

Sam: Orange doesn’t really suit me quite well, surprisingly, even though I have red hair.

John: Right. That’s the only orange I need. How about cats or dogs?

Sam: Dogs, for sure, 100%. I’ve got a guard dog. Her name’s Lula. We love her. She’s great.

John: That’s awesome. What kind of dog?

Sam: She’s rescue. We were at the dog park, and they’re like, what kind of dog is this? Is this a Basenji Border Collie mix? I looked that up on Google, and it was like, there’s a bunch of Lulas. So, we think, without any testing, Basenji Border Collie mix at least, pretty roughly. Google it and you’ll see pictures of that kind of dog.

John: That’s cool. Very cool. More suit and tie or jeans and a T-shirt.

Sam: Jeans and a T-shirt. I can do both, but I’m wearing jeans and a T-shirt right now.

John: Right. Exactly, if I had to choose. There you go. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Sam: Oh, I am just the worst with movies and actresses. It’s cliché, I really like James Bond. That’s a lot of different actors, depending on which one.

John: The character itself works. That’s totally cool. We’re not even going to argue over which one was best. We can let someone else do that. There you go. Are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Sam: Early bird.

John: Oh, okay. All right. There you go. How about more Star Wars or Star Trek?

Sam: Star Trek, and that’s just because we grew up and our dad was always saying quotes about it.

John: Okay.

Sam: I’ve got my hands up in this.

John: The Vulcan…

Sam: Yeah.

John: The Spock whatever. That’s awesome. PC or a Mac?

Sam: Mac for sure. I think a PC is just, they’re so hard to use and clunky and difficult. They’re good because you can put some different software on it that you can’t on a Mac. Otherwise, it’s a waste of your time.

John: There you go. All right. All right. How about a favorite ice cream flavor? Oh, okay. I think that’s the second time I’ve heard that one on here. Not super popular so it’s always available. That’s awesome, man. Very cool. How about favorite season, spring, summer, fall or winter?

Sam: I love winter, and we live in winter. We’re up in the mountains, so we’re used to it, but I think the heat, straight up, like dead dog days of summer is probably my least favorite. I like all the others because I always have a sport for the others. In the dog days of summer, actually that’s good too, because then you can go Alpine rock climbing. It’s a tough toss-up. If you have something to do in all the seasons, I think it’s easy to love all the seasons.

John: Nice. Okay, I’ll take that. I’ll take that. How about a favorite cereal?

Sam: I don’t really eat that much cereal.

John: Even as a kid? Okay, all right.

Sam: No, I’m an eggs guy.

John: Oh, an eggs guy. All right. All right. How about your first concert?

Sam: It was a Phish concert, I’m pretty sure.

John: Oh, okay. All right. There you go.

Sam: With this one friend, he was super into it, and we went. He was like, this is the greatest thing ever. You know how they are. They’re really, really into it.

John: Right? You’re like, is this just one long song? Are they going to play a second song?

Sam: Yeah.

John: When does the next song start? That’s funny.

Sam: That’s how I feel about it, for sure. We always just set random things related to Phish.

John: Right? Just for you, skiing or kayaking.

Sam: That’s a toss-up. Right now it’s skiing, for sure, right now, but I used to kayak professionally. Maybe it’s just because I’m onto a different phase of trying to get really good at something.

John: Sure. No, no, totally. I understand. Three more, three more. Favorite number.

Sam: 13.

John: Is there a reason?

Sam: Yeah, because it’s everybody’s unlucky number, so I like it.

John: Okay. All right. There you go. I love that. When it comes to books, since the audio version of mine is out now, audio, Kindle or real books.

Sam: Okay, so if it’s got pictures and diagrams, and I’m trying to learn something from that perspective, then I want a physical book. If it’s just all text, then I want the Kindle. Then if the narration is good, and I haven’t listened to yours, John.

John: It sounds like this voice reading you the book.

Sam: Okay, then I want audio book. Because the worst is when you get an audio book where you’re actually listening to someone else read the author’s book, and you’re like, I want to hear from the person who wrote it and connect with him.

John: It was so hard to do, man. I’m not even going to lie. Luckily, my book’s very conversational in tone, even the text is. Reading it should have been easy, but it was eight hours to record a 200-page book. It was crazy but, yeah, it was cool to do.

Sam: Well, I’m getting an audio copy of your book, John.

John: Okay. All right. I’ll hook you up, man. I’ll hook you up.

Sam: No, I’m going to go buy one.

John: Oh, okay. All right. Well, you’re too kind man. You’re too kind. I sold one now. All right, perfect. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Sam: The favorite thing I have or I own. Well, I don’t know. That’s an interesting — things, you can replace things. We bought our house in June here. I love that. It’s on an acre. We have tons of space up in the mountains. I love that. The rest is like, things are things. There’s a lot of things I love and want. I always want the latest this gear or that gear, but it’s stuff.

John: Yeah, yeah, and then you wait six months, there’s a new thing that you want too. It’s like, all right.

Sam: Yeah, and if I’ve used it well, then I’ve destroyed it.

John: Right. Which leads in perfectly to talking about just high adventure/kayaking/skiing/all of those things. Maybe we’ll start with the kayaking. How did you get started with that?

Sam: The way I got started with kayaking is actually my brother, who’s my best friend — my wife and my brother are my best friends — my brother, I think he was nine or 10, and he wanted to kayak. He found this camp online that you could go to, and he showed our parents. He said, “I want to go to kayak camp.” It was a week-long summer camp. He showed them. They’re like, okay, yeah, sounds good. We were involved in Scout —

John: Was it camp with a K? Was the kayak and the camp and KKK?

Sam: Oh, that would be great but, no, this is — it was White Water Learning Center of Georgia, because we grew up in Georgia.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Sam: It was actually just this gentleman who was, I think he was a retired banker, now that I think about it. He was in his 60s, and he started this camp to introduce kids to whitewater. He drove this 15-passenger van with a trailer full of kayaks. He drove it — we grew up in Roswell, which is like northeast of Atlanta. We would meet in town.

There are rivers, but there’s not a lot of good whitewater down there. He had to drive up to the North Georgia mountains, which was like 45 minutes to an hour. Not too far but every day for that camp, he would drive, and he would just fly in this van with kids in it. If you think back, we were just hauling down the road with all these kayaks and these kids in the van, and then an instructor too that was helping him out. He’d go to the lake for two days.

So, Max went one summer, and then Max was like, oh, this is great. I love whitewater. He was all psyched out. He’s, I guess, 10 or 11 now. So I was like, well, I want to go. We were involved in Scouts, growing up, and so that was definitely an introduction to high adventure things and skill sets around that, which was a big part of our development in that arena. That was the very first.

After that, Max just got really into — we were into rock climbing because it was easier to do in your house. A few years later, he went to a summer camp. So, really, I guess I attribute it to my brother, Max, and our parents saying, yeah, let’s do this. He was super motivated. He wanted to do this. I was just like, even though my younger brother, he was just psyched out. I was like, all right, we’ll do this.

We were always doing something, mountain biking, whatever, and our parents would get us involved in these different sports activities. Outdoors was a big thing that they liked, and so we did it too. We were always excited about the outdoors. That was something we were always into, and different outdoor sports. Yeah, so that’s how we got into it.

Then, as soon as I was old enough, it was right before college or the summer of, I started — I was like, I want to be a whitewater guide. I want to guide rafts and kayaks, take people down rivers. So I started guiding with a company in western North Carolina called Endless River Adventures, and that is where it all really took off. That was like the entree into the world of whitewater kayaking and guiding in the States and a little bit internationally in Ecuador, and doing more expedition-type trips, and then getting introduced to the different brands because they had a retail shop, which led to the sponsorship for professional kayaking. If you ask my dad, I went to college for a degree in Environmental Science/whitewater kayaking.

John: Right. Exactly.

Sam: Because I would schedule my classes, I’d have class, Tuesday to Thursday, and then I’d guide and kayak, Friday, Saturday, Sunday and then Monday. So that’s how we got into it. Whitewater was the basis for all this adventure stuff we do.

We learned how to learn a new sport. We learned how to excel, how to become good at something, and then those lessons have translated, because we decided to be aware of them, to the rest of our life, and also what we do in business. I can talk about that separately because the point is that there’s a life outside of business.

That’s where I met my wife, working on the rivers. She was running the outfitter. That’s probably one of the largest influences in my life is whitewater, led to the way I live my life and what we do and how we think about things.

John: Yeah, because what’s cool is, from doing all these shows, is how much your outside-of-work interests impact the other parts of your life and vice versa. We can’t really keep them separate. You’re Sam. I can’t say, Sam, not the kayaker part, can you leave that outside? It’s no, no, it all comes with me everywhere I go. What is specifically, mindset-wise, would you say, or skill set-wise, translates over from the adventures and the kayaking?

Sam: Yes. I think this is an interesting thing. You don’t have to be doing this thing at a professional level, or guiding at this extremely high level, to take these lessons away. I think that’s one of the beauties, for many of these, what are called high adventure sports, where there’s a component of athleticism, there’s a component of risk, there’s a component of judgment involved in what you’re doing. Those lessons are probably, outside of the joy of doing the actual thing and the experiences that they give you, those lessons are the ones that you can take, in my opinion, and apply to other aspects of your life.

From a business component, I always bring those back in. I’m looking at, if we take the whitewater analogy because that’s the thing that I’ve excelled the most at, in my life, and from a sports perspective; you’re working either on a team of other people that you’re going down the river with. You’re making independent decisions yourself, in your boat, but you’re with a team of people. If you’re guiding, then you’re guiding people through an experience who have less experience with that environment, which is a lot of times what people do in business. You’re working with other people. If you have a client relationship with people, then you’re working with people who have less experience in the domain that they’ve hired you to effectively guide them through and hopefully give them the best experience they can without killing them or, in this case, killing their business.

John: Right. Right.

Sam: You’re looking at these components of objective and subjective risk. What is actually risky here that we’re doing, and what is just scary but not actually that dangerous? For me, I’m looking at, downstream in the process, to use that metaphor, we’re going to make changes to business. Our company does automation and process consulting and implementation, so we’re making changes to businesses quite a bit. We are always looking at what is the risk? That’s objective, meaning, usually your revenue. When we make those changes, let’s make them in increments that are measurable, and we’re protecting the potential risk of impacting your revenue. If we’re trying something new that could affect how you do business and your customers’ experiences, let’s think about what’s the risk and how can we try it on a small portion of customers first, and then scale that up to the rest of the organization.

John: Right.

Sam: So, using this framework of assessing hazards that are real, identifying them, and then not being afraid of the things that are just maybe new to you. That’s new, but it’s not that dangerous. It’s just new. It’s scary because it’s different, but it’s not actually going to harm you, so let’s try it.

John: Yeah, and if you have the guide, someone like you, then it minimizes the risk, for sure.

Sam: It gives you that opportunity to really explain. Okay, we’ve seen this before in other industries or other businesses. Guess what? You’re going to be okay. Or, hey, that thing that you think is totally good to go, is not. It’s actually really dangerous and has a potential to negatively impact you in a massive way. You may not be thinking about that, but we’ve seen it before, and so let’s guide you away from that.

John: Right. No, I love that man, and in that analogy. Plus, when you’re kayaking — I mean, I’ve done it a very minimal amount, but canoed a bunch, as well — there are split decisions that you’re making on the river because you’re going and then all of a sudden, it’s like, oh, there’s a log there or a rock there that I didn’t see under the water, that’s just high enough but not enough to create a rapid. It’s those quick decisions that you have to make that sometimes you do have to make in business. With courage and conviction, you decide and do it. You can’t hesitate because that’s when bad things happen.

Sam: It also leads to this perspective, and this is maybe an unfortunate thing but fortunate at the same time, being in that world of serious high adventure, accidents happen. We’ve, unfortunately, known people who’ve passed away and been involved in accidents, where we’re responding to them. At the end of the day, in business, not 100% true, but in the decisions of marketing and sales and fulfillment-type of automation, people don’t die.

John: Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Sam: Nobody’s going to die today. It’s going to be okay, but there is the seriousness of we’re impacting your revenue and your livelihood. Hopefully, positively is what we aim to do with people, but there are risks we’re taking with people’s business, with them, and guiding them through that risk and that experience. It’s perspective I’m able to keep to say, nobody’s going to die today. Because there are crises in business.

John: Oh, for sure.

Sam: It’s stressful, but having dealt with crisis where people have actually died, it’s not as stressful as my email went out wrong. Okay. Well, that’s okay. You can —

John: Put things in perspective.

Sam: Yeah, exactly.

John: Yeah, just make everybody wear a life jacket and a helmet, and then you’ll be fine.

Sam: Then get on your keyboard.

John: Right. Exactly. Why is everyone in the cubicle sitting in there with their helmet on? Safety first. You never know. Safety first. Do you have a favorite river or a favorite story from your kayaking days?

Sam: Oh, man, there are just endless amounts.

John: I can imagine.

Sam: I would say I think that one of the cool things — I like to try and relate these stories in a context that are useful — is the rivers you spend a lot of time on, that are comfortable to you. You know all the nuances of. You’ve seen them at different water levels, and you know them in different seasons. Then there are new rivers that you go to, you’ve never been to before. I think that idea that you can take that and relate it to experiences that you’re comfortable with, that you’re familiar with, and go, okay, well, what lessons do I know from the river that I’m familiar with? What do I do there? I know how to operate there. I’m comfortable. If I go to this new river, what features are familiar to me? Different place, different environment, different feeling, but the waters can do similar things, given similar circumstances.

So, if you’re putting yourself in new situations, look for what’s familiar in the situation and then identify what’s different. That way, you can mentally stop thinking about the familiar things. You know how to handle that. When you get these new things you can focus your attention on, okay, how do I deal with this new challenge or problem or address it or use it to my advantage? All the rivers are wonderful. My favorite river is usually the one that’s closest to me at the time.

John: Right. There you go.

Sam: I definitely have some ones that I love, for sure. If you can recognize that the difference between a familiar and an unfamiliar environment, and then in that unfamiliar environment, when you’re pushing into these new challenges, okay, what do you know that’s — how do you operate in this portion of the experience? Cool. You know what to do. How do you operate in this other portion of experience is totally different. That’s what you can focus your time and energy on. You don’t have to stress about the whole experience.

John: Right. Yeah, because you’ve done it before. Yeah, you’ve got this part down, so only focus on the new stuff that you’re learning or that’s new to you. Yeah, that’s such a great parallel for what you’re doing with Mobile Pocket Office as well. It’s exactly that.

Sam: Right, because we come into a business, and we’re always, each business is different. Hire different people, they sell something different, they’d do it in a slightly different way, but there’s a lot of familiar things in how businesses operate. So we pull those lessons from the whitewater world. Now I’m really into skiing and backcountry skiing and getting more into Alpine rock climbing and that kind of stuff. Pulling those lessons from it.

Okay, I know how to tie into the rope. I know how to belay somebody. I know how to ski down this type of snow on this pitch. I know my bindings work the same here, as they do anywhere else. Now, what’s different about it? That’s what I need to focus on and address and spend my energy on?

John: Yeah. No, I love it, man. That’s awesome. Yeah, it is interesting how much that plays into so many different aspects of your life, as well. How much do you feel, at a larger organization, that it should matter and creating that atmosphere where people can share those hobbies and passions? Versus how much is it on the individual to maybe just start a conversation in their little small circle?

Sam: Well, it’s dependent. If you’ve got a leader who encourages that at an organization, it’s going to be easier, bottom line.

John: Definitely.

Sam: If it doesn’t exist, then it’s going to be on you to just start having that conversation. Probably the best way is, yes, you’re interesting to your coworkers, but what’s probably more interesting is you asking them about themselves and what they do outside, because we all like to talk about ourselves. That’s our favorite subject. If you’re asking others that you work with, what are their hobbies, what do they do, oh, what did you get up to this weekend; then that’s going to naturally bring that conversation. You’re probably going to feel more connected at your office and your work, like we are.

One of our team members is a big skateboarder. I always ask him, oh, send me some video. What trick are you working on? But you’ve got to be genuine about it. You’ve got to actually be interested, not like, oh, I’ve got this new tactic. I’m going to ask my —

John: Right? Like a checklist?

Sam: Yeah. Okay, I asked him about it. Now why aren’t my business relationships better?

John: Right, right. Yeah, because then there’s the follow-up, like you said. Hey, you were working on this new trick, let’s see the video, type of thing, because I actually want to see this. This is awesome. You’re celebrating with them, the things that really light them up.

Sam: I got him a skateboard deck that he really wanted, not just some random one, but I found out what he was really interested in and then got him this super special, to him, deck. Funny thing is he hasn’t even skated. He hung it in his home office.

John: Right. I don’t want to touch it.

Sam: Yeah, I was like, dude, you need to skate that. We can get you more decks.

John: Right? If you’re not using it, you’re not going to break it. You’re not doing it.

Sam: Exactly. That’s definitely my approach to that stack. I think it’s just a matter of being interested in people. It doesn’t have to be high adventure. It could be they’re interested in cooking or whatever that thing is that just fires them up. Most people have something outside of just work and business. It could be their kids and their family is their big hobby.

John: Yeah, or what they do with the family.

Sam: Right, exactly. So I think just being aware and trying to pay attention and asking people and being genuinely interested go a long way. Your connection to whatever you’re doing, it probably makes it feel a little more meaningful, and your coworkers’ connection to you and their connection to what they do. Also they’re going to — when you guys need to burn the midnight oil and make it happen for some project, who do you think they’re going to be more excited about working with? The person who actually gives a shit about them and asks about them, or the person who is all business all the time, no fun, doesn’t care about them as an individual?

John: Why are you looking at me in the eyes? Get back to the computer? What?

Sam: Yeah. Those experiences and that conversation make a big difference. Now, I don’t work in a huge organization. We’re small, but I’m a human. I work with other people, and we do have a team.

John: Yeah, we all are. Even if you work for a large, huge global corporation, you’re little department is no different than that.

Sam: That’s right. You work with a team of people.

John: Yeah. Even if the CEO of the organization thinks a certain way, your group doesn’t have to. Your group can be the coolest group in the world.

Sam: And that influence can spread throughout, over time. Don’t expect it to happen overnight if this is the culture you want, and you’re not the top-down leadership, but if you are, you can make it spread pretty fast if you start asking people.

John: I agree, man. I agree.

Sam: The reverse is going to be harder, but it is there. At least your team is tight, and people back you up way more. I’ll be back. They’ll pull through for you. People will stop being clock watchers and just trying to get out of there.

John: Yeah, exactly, and they’ll stay longer because you actually care. They can do that job at a bunch of different places with different logos.

Sam: Why do people leave places is because of the people. It’s largely because of their boss, whoever they work with. So, if you are somebody’s boss, hopefully you’re trying to think like they’re — leading them because you’re working with another human, not just a robot. We implement robotic stuff for people, with automation.

John: They can be more human because then they don’t have to do those mundane tasks, and now the robots are, the AI and all that.

Sam: So I think the big takeaway is take these things that when you’re fired up and passionate about something, and that’s your “and”, and it’s outside of what you do, from a revenue, this is how I make money perspective; then that can be somebody’s “and”. There are plenty of people who have that. For the large majority — I mean, I’m very passionate about what I do, but I’m also very passionate about back country skiing and kayaking and climbing. Those things fuel the way that I look at situations and the way that I approach them, and also the discussions and conversations I have. If you can ask people, and if somebody asks me about that stuff, I’m going to light up and be excited that you are interested in that aspect of my life as well, because this is another dimension.

John: Exactly. No, I love it, man, and such a great takeaway for everybody listening, of just show that genuine interest, ask and see where it goes. Like you said, at the end of the day, it’s not that high risk. No one’s going to die.

Sam: Yeah, and nobody’s going to die if you ask. Nobody’s going to freak out. They’re going to be like, oh. They’re probably going to be taken aback at first, if that’s not the norm, and then they’re going to probably open up if you keep asking and keep showing an interest.

John: And think it’s cool. Yeah, exactly. No, I love it, man. That’s awesome. It’s only fair though, since I started out the episode, rudely peppering you with questions, that I turn the tables. Welcome to the first episode of the Sam Ovett podcast. Thanks for having me on, Sam. I booked myself, so you really have no choice. Here I am. I’m all yours, man. All yours.

Sam: John, what is your “and”? What do you do? I talked to you about coming up to go back country skiing, and I’m going to drag you up here to Nederland since you’re down the road in Denver.

John: Right, get up in the mountains. I mean, definitely college football is huge. Ice cream, I’m a little bit of a junkie on ice cream. Concerts are awesome.

Sam: College football, who’s the team?

John: Yeah, I graduated from Notre Dame, so, Notre Dame. All college football I love, but definitely Notre Dame is my team.

Sam: Nice. Ice cream, what’s your flavor?

John: Yeah, my go-tos are anything with massive chunks in the ice cream, so I can get most calories per spoon.

Sam: Cookie dough or non-cookie dough.

John: Cookie dough, brownie fudge chunk, whatever.

Sam: If you’re getting an ice cream near your house or somewhere in Denver, where’s the best spot to go? I mean, it’s tough. You’ve got a pandemic. We’re in the middle of pandemic still.

John: Yeah. No, absolutely. There’s a place here in Denver, Little Man Ice Cream, and it looks like an old milk jug, like the metal milk jug from the old days. Or maybe they still use them, I’m not sure but, yeah, Little Man Ice Cream in Highlands there, just across downtown, I-25.

Sam: Okay, so 2620 16th Street, Denver, Colorado, Little Man Ice Cream. I just looked it up.

John: There it is. Yep, there it is. Throw it out there. Everybody go. They have this Salted Oreo.

Sam: What are you getting there? Salted Oreo?

John: Yeah, Salted Oreo, and it is, yeah, it is really good.

Sam: Waffle cone or sugar cone.

John: Oh, you know, that’s a good —

Sam: Or a cup. Or buy a cup.

John: Here’s what I do. I do the cup, but I get the waffle cone on top. I get both, but I don’t spill it all over. Yeah, so, cup but with the cone sticking out of it, if that makes sense.

Sam: Big spoon or tasting spoon.

John: Oh, yeah, big spoon, and I’m not sharing, one spoon. You get your own, man. You get your own.

Sam: Yeah, that’s good. Since you’re already close, we have to have you up here because you’re — it’s pretty unique that people are this close and so that would be cool.

John: No, I’m looking forward to it, man. Absolutely. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This has been really, really fun.

Sam: Thank you. I’m glad to be here.

John: Absolutely, and everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Sam in action or connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 389 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you with this voice, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books.

The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture, and I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Kerry Crockett. She’s the CEO of the Insurance Accounting and Systems Association, that’s the IASA, and now she’s with me here today. Kerry, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Kerry: Thank you, John, appreciate you having me. I’m looking forward to a great conversation with you.

John: This is going to be so much fun. I have my rapid-fire questions out of the gate here, get to know Kerry on a next level here. I’ll start you out with a pretty easy one, favorite color.

Kerry: Red.

John: Red. Okay. All right.

Kerry: Oh, yes, red, the brighter the better.

John: Oh, okay, okay. How about a least favorite color?

Kerry: Probably grays.

John: Oh, interesting. All right. Yeah. How about a favorite Disney character?

Kerry: Wow. Probably… Gosh, there’s so many of them that I like, but probably, I like Bambi and none of the princesses necessarily, but the animal ones, for sure.

John: Oh, I see where this is going. All right. All right. Definitely. How about pizza or hamburger?

Kerry: Both.

John: Yeah, good answer. That was a trick one. That is the right answer.

Kerry: You can’t go wrong either way.

John: No, you really can’t. You really can’t. Do you have a favorite actor or actress?

Kerry: Meryl Streep definitely comes to mind.

John: Oh, yeah.

Kerry: Powerful. Yeah, absolutely brilliant.

John: Yeah, solid answer. More Star Wars or Star Trek?

Kerry: Probably neither.

John: Neither. Fair enough.

Kerry: Yeah.

John: Fair enough. Yeah, totally. Your computer, more of a PC or a Mac.

Kerry: PC.

John: Yeah, me too.

Kerry: Yeah, I’m a basic girl.

John: Right. Let’s just get this done. How about first concert you went to?

Kerry: Queen.

John: Queen.

Kerry: With my big brother.

John: What?

Kerry: Yeah, my big brother and two of his friends. I was the little sister tag-along, and it was fabulous.

John: That’s amazing. Wow, that is awesome. Very cool. How about a favorite ice cream flavor? I’m a huge ice cream junkie.

Kerry: Oh, probably pineapple or coconut or both together.

John: Oh, wow. Okay. Nice. How about, do you have a favorite day of the week?

Kelly: Well, obviously, Friday. That means you’re getting into the weekend.

John: Right? Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. That works. How about a favorite animal, any animal at all?

Kelly: Oh, probably a dog.

John: Still a dog? Okay. All right.

Kelly: Yeah, still probably a dog.

John: That works.

Kerry: Yeah.

John: Yeah, yeah. Totally, and it’s not going to eat you.

Kerry: Well, that depends too.

John: Well, I guess that’s true. I guess that’s a good point. How about books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Kerry: Real books. I like to turn the page. I like to feel it in my fingers. Yeah.

John: Yeah, yeah. I’m the same way on that. Would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

Kerry: You know what, I used to be a night owl. The older I get, I find myself becoming more of an early bird.

John: Right? It’s weird like that, right?

Kerry: I just can’t sleep like I used to.

John: No. It’s weird. Then you wake up early, and you’re like, I don’t even want to wake up early.

Kerry: I know. It’s true.

John: This is Saturday. Why am I waking up early? Ay-ay-ay. I’m glad to see I’m not the only one. All right, two more, two more, or three more rather. Favorite number.

Kerry: 22.

John: Is there a reason?

Kerry: It goes way, way back. I’ve just always liked the number, and it actually ended up being my husband’s favorite number as well. Now we use it when we want to say I love you. We just say 22. If we’re texting each other, it’s quick.

John: Nice. I like that. That’s fantastic. Oh, this is a good one. We’ve got two more. Since you’re in Georgia, tea or sweet tea.

Kerry: Tea, unsweet tea. I can’t do sweet tea anymore.

John: Well, sweet tea down there is hoo!

Kerry: Yes, it is.

John: It’s sugar.

Kerry: It’s sugar.

John: It’s sugar that’s brown.

Kerry: That’s true.

John: I feel teeth falling out as I drink it.

Kerry: Too sweet.

John: Oh, yeah. It’s amazing. Last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Kerry: Well, I don’t know that I actually own them, but I would have to say my puppies, my dogs. Yeah.

John: Oh, yeah.

Kerry: They own me, for sure, but they’re my favorites, outside of my hobby, of course.

John: The favorite thing you have.

Kerry: Yeah.

John: That’s cool. What kind of puppies are they?

Kerry: I’ve got some rescues. One is a Deer Head Chihuahua, and one is a Husky-Shepherd mix.

John: Oh, wow. That’s awesome.

Kerry: A big girl and little girl.

John: Yeah, I was going to say that’s quite the mix.

Kerry: Yeah.

John: That leads right into the Humane Society work and just being a dog lover in general. Did you grow up with dogs? Or was it something that you just picked up later?

Kerry: Oh, no, I have always been an animal lover. I can recall, one of my earliest memories is actually going up to a big dog. I can’t recall what kind it was. It actually jumped on me, pushed me down, and I couldn’t wait to get back up and pet it again. That was when I was, I think, three years old. That’s my earliest memory.

John: For sure. My parents had a dog when I was born, and we always had dogs for the most part, except for maybe a little pause in between sort of thing. Yeah, dogs are, they’re just great. They’re always excited to see you and happy around and always up for a walk or whatever is happening. They’re so smart too. It’s crazy how they pick up on our patterns. I’m like, am I that lame? I’m that predictable? You know what we’re doing?

Kerry: Yeah. They know when you’re feeling bad. They come up, and they want to snuggle with you. They want to make sure that you’re okay. It’s fabulous. I love them. It’s not just dogs. I love anything, every kind of creature. I have no issue with snakes and spiders and all of the above. Anything that breathes, I love.

John: Wow, that’s really cool. I know you’ve done some work with the Humane Society. How did you get started with that?

Kerry: It was probably, gosh, close to 20 years ago, my involvement with the Humane Society. There was a grooming place near where I lived. I just went in because I saw there was a sign outside about the Humane Society. I went in and realized they were actually utilizing space there to house the animals, and got to talking with them. The next thing I knew I was out back, and I was bathing dogs in one of the kennels outside. I was so excited. I kept saying, “Is there another I could do? Give me another one. I’m happy to do it.”

John: Yeah.

Kerry: That was my introduction to volunteer work with Humane Society, and it has just been with me since that time and led me all the way up to the Board of Directors with the local Humane Society that we had. More than that, it really just kept me in touch with a fabulous group of folks and just saw so much value in the work that we did, acquiring the old city jail for our first Humane Society here in Augusta and the work we had to do to get it ready for the animals and all of that. It’s just a great, great experience.

John: Yeah, it just makes you feel good in the end. Our dog is Rocket. He’s a terrier mix rescue. When we went to go — we saw him online, and we were like, hey. Then there’s all these dogs and puppies and whatever. It’s just fun. It just makes you smile. We’ll hang out in this little area with them and make sure that whatever, and then it’s, well, do you want to take him home? Let’s go. I’m like, what? It was almost like a dad, I mean, I don’t have kids, but when you’re leaving the hospital, except for I didn’t know that we were pregnant. All of a sudden, it’s like, we don’t have a leash. We don’t have a collar. We don’t have anything.

Kerry: Oh, my gosh, and they sold him to you?

John: They were like, well, the Petco is next door so just go over there. I was just like, well, cha-ching.

Kerry: There we go.

John: Yeah, it was awesome. Then we Craig’s Listed, on the way home, a crate for him to sleep in at first. Yeah, it was awesome. Yeah, it just makes you feel good, and to be around more people like that, that are just making the world a better place.

Kerry: Absolutely. Yeah, and you can see it in the animal’s eyes, too. The cats, the dogs, you can tell how grateful they are. Really. People think I’m crazy when I say that, but other animal lovers, they know what I’m talking about.

John: Yeah, it is crazy how intuitive animals are and why humans didn’t get that trait, or some humans anyway. I’m not sure. I’m not sure. That’s awesome. That’s very cool. Do you have a more unique animal that you’ve helped rescue or been around?

Kerry: Oh, yeah, we’ve had all kinds of animals. I’m an army brat. When we lived in barracks when we were stationed in Karlsruhe, Germany, this was when I was younger, we couldn’t have cats, dogs, larger animals like that. We had mice and guinea pigs. That was our thing. We had a couple of mice, Ralph and Bandit, and they were dancing mice. They would spin around and chase their tails, which is why they were called dancing mice. I recall my mother just fussing about these things. I can’t believe we have rats in the house and that kind of stuff.

John: Right?

Kerry: Waiting for her one morning, because she was coming in to wake me up for school, I was already awake, and hear her talking to them. Oh, look at you, aren’t you cute? Look at you. Yeah, animals go way back with us. We’ll have any — I mean, I’ll take anything that I’m allowed to have. My sister has a snake, so it’s a little bit in the family as well.

John: That’s interesting. That’s really interesting. I guess being an army brat translates over to your travel, another passion you have. I was an Air Force brat. When you move every two or three years, you’re just used to it. I’m sure you got to travel quite a bit, growing up, as well.

Kerry: Yeah, we did. We traveled a good bit. We were selected, stationed in Germany for about five years. From that experience, we probably hit 85% of European countries. We had a Volkswagen camper, and we would camp all over, everywhere we went, four of us kids and my mom and dad in this camper.

John: Oh, my.

Kerry: Yeah. We would just go. My dad would take a month off in the summer, and we would hit two or three countries and every cathedral and every castle. It gets old after a while when you’re kid. It’s not until you come back to the States and you get older that you realize, wow, that was a good experience. I’m really grateful for that.

John: Right. It’s like, now I have adult money, let’s go back or let’s go do something else.

Kerry: Right. Yeah. Well, it really did get into my blood. You can send me to the store across the street, and I get excited. I love to travel. It doesn’t really matter where it’s at. It’s the way it is. You can imagine how hard this past year has been. The travel for me has really just been all about understanding and learning different cultures, even if it’s within the US because you can go from one state to another and it’s a completely different culture.

John: Definitely.

Kerry: I think that that’s really been valuable to me. It’s been fun. As an adult, I try to do at least one international trip a year just to go to another country that I’ve never been to.

John: Right. Yeah, I saw the picture at the Great Wall of China. I was like, wow, that is awesome. Is that one of your favorite places you’ve been?

Kerry: It was one of our favorite trips. It was incredible, but I will tell you, it was also the coldest I have ever been in my life.

John: Really? Okay.

Kerry: We were there at the end of December and into the first week of January. We were there for a couple of weeks. It was freezing, freezing cold, but it was amazing. It was incredible. We went all over the place. It was great.

John: That’s cool. Do you have any other favorite places? Because people always ask me and it’s hard to know.

Kerry: Oh, for sure Africa.

John: Oh, yeah. Where did you go?

Kerry: We went to Botswana and South Africa and to Zambia as well. That was a wonderful trip, on safari, and that was just incredibly amazing. It’s so exciting. I’ve been thinking about it. That was in 2012 that we went, and I’ve told my husband every year, “This year, we’re going back. This year, we’re going back.” We just haven’t gotten there. Finally this year, we have a trip to Tanzania planned in October, for two weeks.

John: Oh, nice. Yeah, people in the US especially don’t understand Africa is huge. It’s so big. On the map, it is not proportionate at all. The top part width is two and a half times as wide as the US. When I went there, it was like, this is huge. This is unbelievable. The differences, talking about from state to state, I mean, from country to country, and Africa’s crazy differences. That’s really awesome to hear. That’s neat. Do you feel like any of the skills, whether it’s helping animals or being passionate about animals or travel, translates to work at all?

Kerry: Oh, I think all of it does, absolutely. When I think about my work with the animals and the wide range of needs that they’ve had, I think what really translates from my work with that is compassion and empathy, and how I then take that and translate that to my team or to people that I’m working with or anybody in the world actually that I come in contact with.

John: Yeah.

Kerry: It’s always trying to be compassionate about whatever situation they’re in and be empathetic to where they’re coming from. I think that ties really well with my travel in terms of culture as well because my experiences in travel has always been around understanding what the new culture is with the area that I’m in, the new city, state, country, whatever that is. As we talked already about growing up as an army brat, you grow up in that type of diverse environment already, just based on the fact that the army has such a diverse population, I guess. Then wherever you’re stationed, you’re forced to make new friends and to meet new people and understand their cultures and all of that.

That, for me, I think has been really, really imperative in terms of how I approach various people from different walks of life, where they’re from, and tying that empathy and compassion into trying to understand where they’re coming from and trying to understand what they’re thinking about a certain thing. Because cultures obviously are very, very different and what might be great or okay for me, might be something that’s really different for them. Trying to take that empathy and compassion and just look from their shoes, I guess, sort of see things.

John: Yeah, which is awesome as a CEO to have that perspective, that it’s not just do it my way or get the heck out of here. It’s almost the opposite, which is really fantastic.

Kerry: I think it’s definitely helped me, and I’ve grown quite a bit in terms of how I work with my teams and how I lead my teams or how I try to lead my teams. It really has — I think all of these combined experiences have really helped me grow as an individual and helped me grow as a leader for organizations that I tried to lead and work with my team on.

John: Because it’s not like you’re traveling so then you become a better leader, or it’s not like you’re helping animals, but it’s a pretty awesome byproduct that just comes about. I’m guessing that this is something that you talk about at work, with coworkers or even the Board and what have you.

Kerry: Oh, sure. I recall in my interview with this group, they asked me one fun fact about myself, and I think I said something about I’ve been to five continents or something. It always goes back to travel. Of course, we talked about what kind of animals you have and that kind of stuff.

John: Yeah.

Kerry: It always goes back to that. I’m always willing and ready and excited to talk about either one of those things, my passions, with anybody, as soon as the topic comes up. Yeah.

John: Yeah, it’s a more interesting conversation than, can you tell us one thing about where you used to work? Well, we used Excel.

Kerry: It humanizes, though, when we talk about our personal interests and our passions, and I think it really gives insight into an individual when they talk about something that they’re really passionate about. You can really learn a lot from people that way.

John: I found though, that some people, for whatever reason, just in their head, there’s a narrative that no one cares, or this has nothing to do with my job, or it’s not professional to have something outside of work besides thinking about more work type of thing. As a CEO, I mean, how do you approach that with people, to encourage that?

Kerry: Well, certainly with my team, we’re very, very close. It’s a fabulous team. We know a lot about what’s happening in each other’s lives. We text on the weekend, if we’re out gardening, or if we’re doing other things. We’re group chatting, and we’re texting that way. We’re really close. When I’m meeting new board members, new clients, new whatever they are, it’s a great icebreaker. Do you have any pets? Do you have any kids? Do you like to travel? It’s just a great icebreaker, and I think it puts everybody on a level set. Because we’re all human at the end of the day and we can all find things that we can talk about. Even if I was talking to, I don’t know, the president of some big corporation or whatever, at the end of the day, he’s still human. He still might have a dog. I might not understand the work that he does, but darn it, I can certainly understand about his dog, or he can understand about mine and how I feel about it, right?

John: No, I love it. Absolutely. Because the animal lover part of that person and you is just as big if not bigger than the work part of you and him, so that conversation, you’re getting who he is or who she is as a person, which is just deeper and richer.

Kerry: Absolutely. Yeah, and it just builds a great foundation for relationships for the future.

John: Yeah. I love that. That’s so awesome to hear that I’m not crazy, and it’s a real world thing.

Kerry: It’s a real world thing, at least in my world.

John: Yeah. No, totally, and the other 400-plus people that have been on the show. Yeah, it’s just cool to hear that. How much is it on the organization to create that atmosphere, like it sounds like you’ve done, versus how much is it on the individual to maybe they could start it among their little group or to even join in, if this is the way it is?

Kerry: Well, in my mind, it’s all about leading by example. If I am demonstrating a behavior and if that means, so, how are things going with you, what are you doing this weekend, those kinds of things where you’re trying to really get in touch with somebody on a personal level, if I’m leading by example, it gives the okay for others in my space, whether it’s my team members, whether it’s my Board, whether it’s other volunteers or people that I meet, it doesn’t matter. It gives that green light to have those conversations back with me, to ask me those kinds of questions. I think it breaks down those barriers of I’m a CEO, and this person over here is another job title that maybe not, they might consider, at the same level of me, for example.

John: Sure.

Kerry: It breaks down those barriers, right? If I lead with that, if I’m able to sort of say, let’s cut through all this other stuff and get down to the fact that we’re both humans, talk to me about your dog, your travel, whatever, your grocery store trip, whatever that is; I think that example then gives permission to others to have those similar conversations. I certainly see it with my team. Everybody is extremely close. It’s a very family type atmosphere, and I have similar relationships with my Board and volunteers. I’m very eager to hear about what’s happening in their lives and just to continue to build that relationship which, in turn, builds that trust and then makes for a better working relationship.

John: I couldn’t agree more. That’s awesome to hear because that reciprocity of — the universe is out of balance, if only one of us shares. Somebody else has to or it’s just going to be awkward. It’s cool that you create that space. That’s awesome to hear. That’s really cool. Do you have any words of encouragement to people listening that have that hobby or passion that they think no one cares about?

Kerry: I would say you’d be surprised to find others that have an interest in what you’re doing and whatever your hobby is. Never be afraid to ask and to open up. You’ll find out pretty quickly if somebody is open to the conversation or not. If they’re not, that’s okay. You haven’t lost anything. So I would just say, don’t be shy. Just ask the question, or just put yourself out there and start a conversation around something that’s of interest to you and see what response you get. There’s no harm done.

John: Yeah. You’re out a couple of minutes. That’s the worst case scenario. Then you know that that person’s on a list of people to not talk to.

Kerry: Don’t waste your time on.

John: Right. It’s not just at work. It’s all over in life. The more that people are talking about these things, I love that, how it just humanizes us. It brings us all level set, like you said, and it just makes for better work and better life in the end.

Kerry: Yeah. Tear down those walls, exactly.

John: Yeah, that’s awesome. That’s very cool. Yeah, this has been so awesome, Kerry. Before I wrap up, it’s only fair that I turn the tables because I very rudely fired away at you, 17 questions. I’m going to turn the tables. This is the first episode of The Kerry Crockett podcast. Thanks for having me on. I’m all yours. Whatever you want, you can ask away.

Kerry: All right, John, here we go. I’ve got three questions for you in rapid-fire sequence. Here we go. Are you ready?

John: I’m ready.

Kerry: All right, dog or cat?

John: Dog.

Kerry: All right. Tell me again, what kind you have?

John: It’s a terrier mix. Although, funny story, we did the DNA thing, because it’s clear that he’s a terrier mix, if you just look at him, but it comes back where he’s got a grandparent that’s full Chihuahua and then on the other side, a great grandparent that’s a Rottweiler and everything else. They were like, we don’t know. I was literally like, I think we get our money back.

Kerry: I’ve done the same thing. I’ve had the same kind of experience.

John: Rottweiler-Chihuahua mix? What are you talking — look at him. People in the dog park, they call him pinschy in the dog park. He looks just like that, not a Rottweiler-Chihuahua mix. What are you talking about? It was hilarious.

Kerry: They clearly need to do a little bit more scientific work on those DNA tests for dogs, don’t they?

John: Exactly. It was just more funny for me, but, yeah, he’s awesome.

Kerry: Okay, next question, theater or Netflix.

John: So, for movies, not live theater, okay. Yeah. That’s tough because in the theater, if I’m the only one there, I control who’s in the theater with me, then theater.

Kerry: Okay.

John: If I’m with the general public, probably Netflix just because, I don’t know, people’s phones, and they talk. It’s just like, what is happening? The world has lost its mind. So, if it’s like a private viewing, then theater, for sure.

Kerry: Do you like it when people talk back to the screen in the theater?

John: No. Although it’s hilarious. It’s more hilarious to me. Although, there are times where I think something’s absolutely funny, and I’m the only one laughing at the whole theater. That’s just funny.

Kerry: I wish I was home watching Netflix.

John: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, but it’s the ones that are just talking openly, not at the movie, just talking. It’s like, what are you doing? It’s not like we can pause for you, type of thing. Probably theater, I guess, in the end because you can feel it. My house isn’t quite set up with the sound system that theaters have.

Kerry: Yeah, it’s not the same experience.

Kerry: All right. Last one, baseball or football?

John: Football, for sure. I don’t know. Baseball, I feel like, if we could make it six innings.

Kerry: Yeah, speed it up a little bit.

John: Something or, I don’t know, just more entertaining. Let them taunt each other and whatever. That’s fun. Cool. Well, Kerry, this has been so much fun. I appreciate you being part of this and also for having me speak at IASA Conference. That was super fun, too. Thank you so much.

Kerry: Thank you. Appreciate it. Enjoyed the talk, and it’s good to see you again.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Kerry’s travels or her dogs or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing to the podcast on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 387 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To it put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. It’s coming out on June 4th or maybe a couple of days sooner.

The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture, and I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and then writing such great reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Will Baker. He’s the Marketing and CPA Experience Director at BaCo Tech in the Dallas, Texas area. Now he’s with me here today. Will, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Will: Yeah, man. I’m excited.

John: This is going to be so much fun. I’ve got 17 rapid-fire questions to get to know Will on a new level here, so here we go. I’ll start you out with a pretty easy one. How about a favorite color?

Will: I’ll go with blue. Oh, gray, gray is probably my favorite color.

John: Gray. Okay.

Will: If my sister is listening, she would say that that’s not a color. It’s a shade.

John: No, that’s a color. That’s a color. We will fight her on this.

Will: That’s what I default to. If I’m picking out bed sheets or anything like that, I’d jump at gray.

John: There you go. Awesome. How about a least favorite color?

Will: Oh, yellow. I don’t like yellow.

John: Yeah, that’s like the opposite of gray. That’s very bright and vibrant. Yeah, yeah.

Will: I am thoroughly against yellow.

John: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yellow is more of a shade. No, I’m kidding.

Will: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It’s a shade.

John: Here’s a tricky one, pizza or hamburger.

Will: Pizza. It’s not even tricky. It’s easy. Pizza is the perfect food.

John: Pizza. Yeah, right? Your hands are clean. You eat it. It’s all right there. I like it. How about a favorite Disney character?

Will: Oh, that’s hard.

John: There’s a lot to choose from.

Will: Well, I immediately go into subcategories. When you’re asking me about Disney, I go, are you saying Disney Princess? Now we have the Marvel Universe and Star Wars in there as well. I would say I’ll just go with childhood, Buzz Lightyear.

John: Oh, yeah. There you go.

Will: Toy Story was coming out when I was the age of Andy, the protagonist and everything. Then Toy Story 3 came out when he was going to college, and it was the summer that I was going to college and so…

John: Nice.

Will: All of that. I’ll go Buzz.

John: Buzz Lightyear, that’s an excellent answer. Excellent answer. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Will: I don’t have one?

John: No, that’s fair enough. Fair enough. That totally works. How about puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

Will: Sudoku.

John: Sudoku, yeah, there you go. That’s how I do my tax returns actually.

Will: We can help with that.

John: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

Will: Night owl.

John: Night owl, okay. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Will: Real book.

John: Real book. Nice. How about a favorite number?

Will: 24.

John: Is there a reason?

Will: It’s my birthday, one. Then growing up, it was three, but I like 24 because it contains three in a lot of different ways.

John: Okay. All right. I like it. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Will: Ooh, depends on the time of year. With us currently entering into summer and I’m cycling a lot more, I would say a nice IPA.

John: Okay.

Will: Because I’ll ride 30, 40 miles every time I ride, and that’s just a quick way to get calories back. It kind of rests out the body. Or whiskey. It’s all good. I just don’t like vodka. Vodka is nasty.

John: Right. Okay, all right. Fair enough. Fair enough. Since you’re a marketing guy, I have to ask, digital or print marketing.

Will: I don’t know. I guess digital because it’s all that matters now, but I would never describe myself as the marketing guy. I’m not the person that is posting on LinkedIn that was like, I was at Chick-fil-A the other day and I realized the power of positive impact marketing.

John: You either know it works or it doesn’t.

Will: Well, yeah. It’s just marketing is, it’s silly. It’s a job we made up for jobs.

John: Right? Amen, man. Amen. Well, at least you know, so that’s even better. How about, oh, here’s a good one, how about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Will: I, forever, would have said Star Wars, but the latest batches of movie — I’m still going to say Star Wars, though I do have an opinion that Star Wars is maybe not as good as we say it is because if you look at the lion’s share of all the movies they’ve made now, more of them are bad than good.

John: I agree with you totally on that. Yeah, it’s unfortunate.

Will: I like the Ark and the environment better than Star Trek.

John: Yeah. Right. Agreed. How about your computer, more PC or Mac?

Will: I’m a Mac guy. I am typical marketing, visual arts, young millennial, post-hipster Mac guy.

John: There you go. All right, how about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Will: Vanilla.

John: Oh, okay. If gray was a flavor, you would pick gray, but vanilla was there.

Will: Vanilla is scientifically one of the most complicated flavors and so I am very proud of it. Blue Bell Homemade Vanilla is like… Vanilla is my favorite, man. It’s like the same argument that I had about pizza. When people are like, what’s your favorite pizza? I’m like, pepperoni pizza. If I’m going to go to a place and they’re like, I make great ice cream, or I make great pepperoni pizza; and you make crappy pepperoni or vanilla. If you can’t get the standards right, then I’m not going to trust you to do the tricked up stuff.

John: Right. Right. I love it. I love that logic, man. I like that. How about rain or snow?

Will: Ooh, forever, I would have said snow, but being in Dallas over this last February, I have a bad taste of snow in my mouth right now, so I’m going to say rain.

John: Right. Okay. I’ve got two more. Two more. How about a favorite animal, any animal at all?

Will: Dogs.

John: Dogs. Okay.

Will: Yet again, kind of the vanilla ice cream of animals but…

John: I’m catching onto you, man. I’m catching on.

Will: I’m pretty low-key, dude. I met my wife at the dog park, and we have a big black Lab-Great Pyrenees mix.

John: Nice.

Will: Yeah, I’m into dogs. Dogs rock.

John: That works. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Will: That’s a really good question. I love things so much. I would say probably my guitar. It’s the first — what do you grab, if your house is on fire, what do you grab? My guitar. It’s like a Christian church guy. Everyone’s like, you wouldn’t say Bible? It’s like, I can buy another Bible.

John: Right. Right.

Will: Those are less expensive than my guitar.

John: Exactly. That’s awesome, man. I love it. What kind of guitar is it?

Will: It’s a Guild. I don’t know the exact type. I like the story of how I found it. Guitarists are very, especially when you have your favorite, they all have fun — if they have their favorite guitar, they have fun stories about how they found it. So, found it in this old shop in East Dallas and it was under a pile of other guitars. I had kind of idolized this type of guitar for a while, and they were just hard to find. Guild’s a very unique brand and its story and what’s happened with it. So, when I saw they had it, I was like, I want that. That’s what I want right there.

John: Very cool, which leads perfectly into your “and” of music. So, did you get started when you were younger, playing instruments? Or how did the music bug get you?

Will: I had two cousins that I thought were the coolest people in the world. My favorite cousin was a drummer. I went up to my parents one year, and I was like, I want a drum kit for Christmas. My parents were like, pick something quieter. My second favorite cousin played guitar, so I was like, then I’ll take a guitar. I was like 11? I got a guitar for Christmas and have been playing ever since.

John: That’s awesome. Do they know that they’re your first and second favorite cousins?

Will: No, probably not.

John: Okay.

Will: I’m the youngest. They’re on my mom’s side, and I’m the youngest on my mom’s side by –the next closest to me is my sister who’s four years older.

John: Oh, okay, so they’re a lot older.

Will: Yeah. My mom is the youngest of four, and I’m the youngest of her kids. They were like, 16, 17 years old, 20 when I was 10. I was like, these guys are… Well, now as an adult and they’re adults, I’m like, these are just regular dudes like me, but then they were like gods among men. I was like, oh, my gosh.

John: That’s fantastic. So, you literally started with guitar.

Will: Yeah, I started with guitar. You can see a little — I have a piano behind me.

John: Right.

Will: I do not know how to play piano. I try and learn and all of that. I took a piano class in college. This is an old upright from the ‘30s or something that my wife got for me for Christmas one year. I can fiddle around on it now, but basically everything I learned on piano is for guitar. Being a pianist makes you a better guitarist.

John: Interesting.

Will: It’s all guitar. One of my favorite things about working from home is, many things, but the ability to have one guitar next to me.

John: Yeah, it’s just right there.

Will: If I’m writing something, I very much process by playing. Can drive a lot of people crazy because I can carry on a conversation and fiddle and play and think, and it’s very distracting to other people.

John: Right, but that’s for them to get over. Right?

Will: Yeah. I wouldn’t say I’m obsessive about it, and there are millions of better players than me, but it’s probably one of my favorite things. If I could set aside everything that money wasn’t an object, I would open a guitar shop in Dallas and just sell vintage and guitars and that kind of stuff.

John: Yeah.

Will: Then die one day. That will be life.

John: Right? Yeah, that’s exactly it because that’s what lights you up, and it sounds like it’s a good release, as well, for, one, when you’re working. You’re able to come back with a clearer mind or some good ideas because you don’t just sit there and stare at the computer screen the whole time. Actually take a step back and noodle around on the guitar a little bit.

Will: Mm-hmm.

John: Because so many people, they think, well, if I put in more time and if I just only work, then it will make me better at my job. I feel like that’s not necessarily the case.

Will: Yeah, I care about my job. I want to do a good job at my job. As we’re in a tech startup, and so there’s a lot of care that goes into that. There’s a lot of care that I have for that job, but I don’t aspire to be — I don’t want to write the marketing books or anything like that. I don’t aspire to be a cut above, as bad as that may sound. My profession is, far and away, not my priority at all.

John: Well, it’s a part of who you are, and the other parts come along with it.

Will: Yeah.

John: It’s not just one thing. They’re all right there along with it, which is great because it’s easy to slip into that working mode. That’s your identity. That’s who you are. That’s your priority. That’s — because that’s what pays the bills at the end of the day.

Will: Yeah, and for myself, it facilitates the things that I am passionate about. I would not be able to do the things that I’m passionate about, if not for the job that I have, so there is an understanding that I have to do that very well. I have to strive to get better and improve and learn more and all of that, but it is not — we were talking about it at my church the other week, the notion of work-life balance in and of itself is twisted in that it’s prioritizing work still. It’s still putting work first to life.

I very much try to keep things at, I don’t know, appropriate boundaries and that kind of stuff, I guess. That doesn’t just go to, when I’m not at work, I’m not at work. That, to me, goes into mental priority too. This is not going to be the thing that defines me at the end of the day.

John: Yeah, and I love that, how even in work-life balance — I mean, alphabetically, it doesn’t even make sense. The W is clearly last, but it comes first. It’s so annoying.

Will: Yeah.

John: For sure. Back to the guitar, do you have a type of music that you like to play more than others? Or is there something that’s your go-to?

Will: I would say, so, I sing and I write too, and so things in the singer-songwriter genre and your indie, whatever that means now. As I’ve gotten older, the taste has expanded and favorite artists have changed. Really, for myself, what I love is — a lot of the music that I like in formative years of high school, college that was really popular in my friend group was the folksy, stomp and holler, Lumineers that kind of stuff.

John: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.

Will: All of that is not very challenging, musically speaking. It’s very straightforward, and now pop music is kind of like that. I am drawn to singer-songwriters that are really proficient at guitar that are doing things that I like, and that is both a really cool song, as a whole, but what you’re doing on the guitar is something that I can’t do. I would like to try and figure out how you’re doing that and singing, how you’re writing like that.

John: Nice. Yeah, like a John Mayer, sort of, or…

Will: Sure. Yeah. I love John Mayer. My wife describes it as pretentious sometimes and so I listen to deeper music.

John: Oh, sure. People that people haven’t heard of.

Will: Exactly. Dos is probably my favorite band right now. By probably I mean is.

John: Right.

Will: It could be my third “and”. What’s your “and”?

John: Okay, is listening to Dos. There you go. That’s awesome.

Will: Yeah, I’ve got a freaking tattoo of the Dos album. They’re my favorite. There’s another band called Bahamas. Both of them are really what I’m into right now, and then a guy named Christian Lee Hutson. All of them are different, stylistically. Dos is more like folk, but now it’s more so just rock. Bahamas is more — Bahamas is weird. They do a bunch of different stuff. It’s not experimental weird. It’s just like, this album is really folksy, and this one is kind of rock, and this one is R&B, kind of. They mix it up. Christian Lee Hutson is just an acoustic guitar and a dude. They all do stuff really cool, stylistically, with the guitar that when I am listening to it, I not only want to learn how to play it, but I want to learn how to write it. Okay, why is it that you’re crafting the song this way? How are the mental synapses scaling that…

John: Yeah, yeah. What’s the structure to it?

Will: Yeah.

John: Yeah, exactly. I would do the same thing in comedy. You can break down a joke. You can break down a movie. You can break down a sitcom script. It’s like, okay, there’s going to be a cliffhanger in two minutes. Boom, there it is. Okay, commercial break, and we’re back. That’s cool because it’s challenging you. I like that. That’s awesome.

Will: You know who Mike Birbiglia is?

John: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Will: He has one called Working It Out. It’s him and other comedians. It’s fascinating hearing how they break down the structure of a joke.

John: There’s a lot of work to it, and the music as well. We don’t always appreciate the finished product as much as how much work it took to get there with that, which is cool and which is another one of your “ands” of church planting. That’s also something that’s not an easy, overnight, just open the doors and then here we are, type of thing. How did you get started with that?

Will: Music and church were always very closely intertwined. I mentioned the cousins.

John: Oh, yeah.

Will: One of my cousins who was one of the musicians was in a band. When I started playing music, I was super, oh, my gosh, he’s in a band. One day, his life just went off the rails for a little bit, and my parents were both like, okay, if you’re going to play music, you’re going to play with some structure. So, I started playing in church bands when I was probably 13. Pretty quickly after that, I started actually leading and singing, and ended up leading all the way through college, and was more so just because I’m a musician, and I’m good at this, and it’s fun because it kind of is a performative outlet, in a way.

John: Oh, yeah.

Will: Pretty soon after, as I was getting ready to graduate and looking at jobs, a couple of opportunities came for me to work at some churches as an intern or part-time, so I started doing that.

John: I love it because it kind of combines three or four aspects of who you are. There’s the guitar, clearly. There’s the Christianity. There’s the marketing aspect of things. There’s the startup mentality that you have. You’re not walking into an established church and just like, here are the keys, don’t wreck it. It’s, no, no, we’ve got to start from the scratch, from the beginning and build our way up. The same as what you guys have done with BaCo Tech, which is cool. It’s just interesting to see — do you feel like those skills from outside of work apply at BaCo Tech?

Will: Absolutely. It’s funny that you talk about that because, so, for the listeners of this, my job, my dad is my boss. He’s always been a small business owner. When I talked to him, like, I want to plant a church, he was like, that totally makes sense. He’s like, that’s just the small business of church. That makes sense. You want to start your own thing.

John: It’s really uncanny how much your at-work Will mirrors the outside-of-work Will, and how those skills are so interchangeable, and that mindset is so in line in both parts, which is awesome because that’s the ultimate.

Will: Yeah, it’s definitely been — I made the comment to somebody the other day where I was like, I think that once BaCo Tech is established, I’m done with startup.

John: Right. Right.

Will: I am currently working for two startups.

John: That’s a lot.

Will: Yeah, it’s startup life, and I work with my dad.

John: Right. What’s the hardest way to do this? I’ll do that.

Will: Let’s take a stressful environment and add gas.

John: Right. Right. Pretty much. Is music or even the church startup something that you talk about at work, or you talked about even at your last job as well?

Will: Yeah, for sure. Obviously, the old place I worked, it being in ministry and working with churches so much —

John: Oh, yeah, of course.

Will: There was a lot of conversation there. People were very curious about that. Also, everything that I, not everything, but a lot of what I believe about church is because of the environment that I worked in, at that company, and me realizing, I don’t want to be a part of these things that are going on in the church world. I want to go more simple.

When it came to this new job with BaCo, I was — as I was looking for a job, one of the things that I would tell people that I was talking to was, this church is not my breadwinner. It’s not what’s supporting, but it is my priority. This is where I feel like my life has been led. The responsibilities that I have, I won’t take this job if I have to give up the other things because it is what, to me, is the most important thing. I don’t think that’s just a “righteous or holy call.” I think that’s a thing in life. Everyone has things in their life that should be more important than work. If work is going to start infringing on those, then lines need to be drawn because work is not the most important thing, period.

John: No, you’re exactly right. It’s just we make it that because it pays the bills.

Will: Yeah. Therefore, there has to be gravity given to it. There has to be legitimacy. Now I’m married. My relationship with my wife is far more important than my relationship with work, and it’s more important than my church. One day we’re going to have a family, and that will be something else. There are always things in your life that should be more important than work

John: Maybe there are some times where work is a priority for a short period because we have a big project, we’ve got to hammer this out, whatever, but not at the expense of, look, if I do this, my wife’s going to leave me. I’m going to lose everything.

Will: My health.

John: No, no, that’s where lines are drawn, absolutely, and health and mental health and all those things. I agree with you totally. Do you have any words of encouragement to people listening that maybe have a hobby outside of work, but they feel like no one’s going to care, or it has nothing to do with my job?

Will: Encouragement is hard. I would say life is so much more than a job. We have, as a society, have conflated busyness to be a badge of honor.

John: Oh, totally. Totally. I love saying, why? Why?

Will: Yeah. I trapped myself in that, even with the church, because there’s part of this church that is like other job, so there’s a very real reality where I work six days a week, and I’m busy. Not conflating busyness to success, and who gives a rip if somebody thinks — if you’re “and” is pottery and nobody is interested in pottery, who cares? Go find people that like pottery. There are people out there. Because that’s the other thing is that work doesn’t have to be your life. Also, your friends don’t have to be your co-workers.

Maybe this will be my encouragement. If you’re having trouble separating work and life, and you don’t have community outside work, that’s a good place to start. Get involved with other people. If your “and” is music, go find some people to play music with. If you’re “and” is church and you’re in the East Dallas area, come to Lakewood Fellowship.

John: There you go. That’s the marketing guy right there. Yeah, you try to say you’re not, but I see.

Will: There it is, the salesman.

John: There’s no yellow anywhere inside the sanctuary. We’re perfect.

Will: There’s no yellow. It’s all vanilla ice cream.

John: Even on Easter, it’s orange sun.

Will: Yes, that’s exactly right, muted colors even on Easter.

John: Right. That’s awesome.

Will: I think surrounding yourself with people that care about your “and”. If your coworkers don’t care about it, okay, your coworkers don’t have to be your friends. There’s a funny Onion article that the headline was coworker accidentally becomes real life friend.

John: Right.

Will: There are times that that happens, but you need to surround yourself with people that care about things that you care about.

John: Right, and more times than not, the people you work with probably do. It’s just you’re not sharing it, so they never get the opportunity to show that they care.

Will: Yeah, and sometimes that’s hard. We’re a small company. Everyone knows everybody. One of the people I work with is my dad. It’s not like he doesn’t know what’s going on.

John: Right. Yeah.

Will: There are varying degrees. In this age of increasingly remote work, that’s going to become even more important because there are so many people that, outlets of community where, I go to the office, and this is where I get my personal connection. Now you’re working from home. The only time you’re connecting with is — no offense, I’m having a warm time with you over this Zoomish call, but it’s not the same. You need to go, and you need to connect with people. No one, at least people my age, no one prepared us for how much harder it is to make friends as an adult.

John: Right? No, it totally is.

Will: I’m getting more and more into cycling now, and I can’t find people to cycle with. My dad’s a cyclist, but we live in two different parts of the city. It’s hard to find time, unless we leave from work. Now it’s like, do I have neighbors that ride bikes? Because I’ll ride with you.

John: Do I even know who my neighbors are anymore?

Will: Yeah, and then you’re going to be like — then you don’t want to be a weirdo. It’s far easier to date as an adult, in my opinion, than it is to make friends.

John: Hey, will you ride your bike with me?

Will: Would you like to go on a 30-mile bike ride with me? Oh, you don’t ride that far? Okay, never mind, we can just go less.

John: Right. I don’t really like you for that long of a time. That’s going to be weird. Such great advice, man. I love that. If your total social network is work only then start outside, start to expand that. As hard as it is, just do it. I love it, man.

It’s only fair though, at the beginning of the episode, I very rudely peppered you with questions, so it’s only fair that I turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Will Baker podcast. So, Mike Birbiglia, take that. Thanks for having me on. I’m all yours. Whatever you got, fire away.

Will: I’ll steal a question from him.

John: Okay.

Will: What is the smell that you distinctly remember?

John: Oh, a smell that I distinctly remember. Okay, my grandfather would smoke a pipe. That tobacco, I’m not even exactly sure what tobacco it was, but the can had a Hawaii look, I don’t know, but the pipe tobacco that he would smoke. Yeah, I vividly remember that, for sure. Does that count?

Will: Yeah, that counts. That’s one. Let’s see. Well, what about you, pizza or hamburgers.

John: I lived in New York City, so, pizza, hands down. Even bad pizza, it’s still pizza. Your McDonald’s hamburger is just not the same as like a really good bacon cheeseburger with the barbecue and loaded up and all that. So, pizza as well.

Will: There’s less parity in it.

John: Yeah.

Will: Since you were a New Yorker at one point, then let’s go a little deeper in the subject for our last question. What is the best style of pizza? You’re talking Neapolitan, New York style, obviously not Chicago.

John: Right.

Will: What’s your go-to style?

John: Somebody referred to Chicago as it’s not even pizza. It’s like a casserole, I think is what somebody referred to it as, because it’s so deep.

Will: Its ratios are all off.

John: It is. It is. There’s a lot to it. That’s for sure. Yeah, I think New York style. There’s a place just across the Brooklyn Bridge in Brooklyn called Juliana’s, which is probably the best pizza right there. It’s that coal oven that’s been grandfathered in, so they can’t come in and take it away.

Will: Yeah.

John: The pizza’s in there for like seven minutes, maybe. It’s just perfect. It’s just so hot and just gets to it, and then loaded up with all of the meats. Also maybe a couple of vegetables if you accidentally spill some on there, but all of the meats. There’s a place here in Colorado actually called Beau Jo’s, on the way up to the mountains. That’s pretty awesome because the crust there, the way they do the outside, it gets a little bit fluffier, almost like the deep dish, that deep but fluffy. At the end, they have bottles of honey. When you eat all the insides, then you have the crust, and then you put honey on it.

Will: Yes.

John: It’s really light. It’s almost like a croissant, kinda. It’s the only place I’ve seen do that. That’s a fun place too.

Will: There’s a place that I’m actually going to dinner tonight. There’s a place in Dallas called Cane Rosso, and they do a hot honey pizza that is so good.

John: Okay.

Will: So, so good. It’s awesome.

John: Very cool, man. Well, this has been so much fun having you be a part of What’s Your “And”? I appreciate it, Will.

Will: Yeah, of course. Hey, appreciate it. This was fun.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Will in action or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.