Author: johng

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Welcome to Episode 485 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. It goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and listening to it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the workplace cultures where they are because of it.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Fara Rosenweig. She’s the head of content marketing at WorkRamp in the San Francisco Bay Area. And now, she’s with me here today. Farah, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Fara: Thank you, John. I’m so excited to be here and chat with you on What’s Your “And”?

John: No. This is gonna be awesome. And you have an awesome “and.” But before we get into it, I have some rapid-fire questions here to get to know Fara right out of the gate. So, maybe an easy one. Favorite color.

Fara: Ooh, pink.

John: Pink? Okay. Okay. How about a least favorite color?

Fara: Maroon.

John: Maroon! Nice! Okay.

Fara: That was a tricky one.

John: That’s not a color you hear. Yeah. You don’t hear it super often. And I am with you on that. It’s a little too dark.

John: Yeah. It doesn’t lift my spirits.

Fara: Right. Right.

John: How about a TV show that you would binge watch?

Fara: Oh, Sex in the City.

John: Ah, yeah. And they’re back now. Right?

Fara: And just like that, yes, they’re back and I’ve binged watched all of those.

John: Right. Well, ‘cause wasn’t it something where like they were releasing on like normal shows back in the day where it was like one a week?

Fara: Yeah. And that’s what they did too and it was very frustrating. So, I had to wait a few weeks so I could binge a few shows.

John: How did we make it through the `90s? How did we do it?

Fara: Yeah.

John: That’s so funny. There you go. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzle?

Fara: Oh, crossword.

John: Crossword, okay. There you go. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Fara: Actor Paul Rudd.

John: Oh, yeah. He’s great.

Fara: Yeah. Actress Julia Roberts.

John: Oh, nice. Yeah.

Fara: Yeah.

John: Classics. There you go. And very funny both of them.

Fara: Yeah.

John: Very funny. Would you say more shower or bath?

Fara: Shower.

John: Shower, there you go. Just get in and out. Let’s do this. I’m similar. I’m like if I didn’t have to, I wouldn’t like why am I near. Like let’s just do this. That’s awesome. Ooh, here’s a fun one. Maybe a least favorite vegetable.

Fara: Oh, mushrooms.

John: Mushrooms, okay.

Fara: Uh-huh.

John: Yeah. They’re kinda weird. Right?

Fara: I think it’s the consistency. I don’t know. I’ll eat it if I have to. But if I have to choose, I’ll forego.

John: When I was on a recruiting visit with PricewaterhouseCoopers, I was in college, and I just wanted the job. And we went to dinner, and the guy that was recruiting me ordered like what’s the big one that’s like—

Fara: Oh, Portobello?

John: Yeah. And I was like “Oh, no.” ‘Cause those are meanie.

Fara: Yeah. And you got to eat it, right, because you’re like recruiting.

John: You couldn’t like with a drink pour it in a plant.

Fara: Yeah. No. You gotta eat it.

John: I was like “Oh, my gosh.” Like I’m still having repercussions from that, but here we go. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Fara: Oh, Star Wars.

John: There you go. On May 4th. Of course, it is Star Wars. There you go.

Fara: And your birthday week. Happy Birthday! I forgot to mention that at the top. That’s so awesome. So awesome. There you go. How about a favorite season? Summer, winter, spring, or fall? Oh, probably fall.

John: Fall? Yeah, me too.

Fara: Yeah. It’s boot season.

John: Yeah. Right. Right. How about your computer, more PC or Mac?

Fara: Mac. Apple products all the way.

John: Oh, there you go. There you go. Yeah. You are a marketer. That makes sense.

Fara: Yeah. I’m a walking advertisement for Apple stuff.

John: You’re all in.

Fara: Except the iWatch. I don’t have the iWatch. I’m Garmin all the way.

John: Oh, okay. Okay.

Fara: Yeah. That’s like the only switch right there.

John: Switch.

Fara: Yeah.

John: Yeah. Well, I’m sure it’s only a matter of time until they buy Garmin and then it’s mine. Make Fara’s dreams come true. How about a favorite Disney character?

Fara: Oh, my goodness. It’s gonna be one of the princesses. Let’s go with Belle from— Yeah, Belle. Beauty and the Beast Belle.

John: Okay. Beauty and the Beast. Okay. There you go. Yeah. Totally good one. How about are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Fara: Early bird.

John: Early bird. Okay. Yeah. Most runners I guess tend to be like that.

Fara: Yeah.

John: We got four more. Would you say more print or digital marketing?

Fara: I am digital marketing like I live and breathe digital marketing.

John: You prefer digital. Yeah. Yeah.

Fara: Yeah. But I prefer actually like reading print marketing. Like I like those postcards. I like everything paper, but I’m in the digital world. So, I have to go digital.

John: Okay. All right. Yeah. You don’t wanna get kicked out.

Fara: And I want a job.

John: There you go. There you go. There you go. How about a favorite number?

Fara: 7.

John: 7. Yeah. Is there a reason?

Fara: I have no. Ever since I was little, I just kept on saying 7 was my lucky number.

John: No. No. It’s a very popular one. I was just curious. Yeah. No. That’s just as good of a reason as any. And maybe I know the answer to this one based on your last answer, but books. Audio version, e-Book, or a real book?

Fara: Oh, real book all the way.

John: That’s what I was guessing.

Fara: I bought a Kindle in 2020.

John: Oh, wow.

Fara: I mean, it was great. I can’t believe I waited this long. Actually, no. It was 2019. Excuse me. Right before the pandemic, but I still prefer the real deal.

John: Yeah. Absolutely. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Fara: My dog.

John: Oh, yeah. What kind of dog?

Fara: I have a Golden Doodle.

John: Oh, nice!

Fara: He is a puppy.

John: Oh, there you go. There you go. What’s his name?

Fara: His name is Doug.

John: Doug, yes. I love that. I love that. That’s so good.

Fara: Yeah. I got him in the middle of the pandemic. I’m a dog person. I got him in the pandemic. And I am so grateful for his companionship. He is just a bundle of joy.

John: That’s so great. And his name is Doug. So, it’s even better.

Fara: Yeah. Exactly.

John: So, it’s like “Doug, don’t poop on that.” And it’s like “What? Who are you talking to?”

Fara: It’s great. At the dog park, people are like “Is his name Doug or Dog?” And I’m like “No. Doug like Douglas.”

John: Right? Like are you yelling at some random guy across the—

Fara: Exactly.

John: Nope. My dog. That’s so good. I love it. That’s so awesome. That’s so awesome. Well, let’s talk running and running Ragnars and marathons.

Fara: Let’s do it. All of that.

John: Like Forrest Gump running. How did you get started running? Were you always into this when you were a kid?

Fara: No. Believe it or not, I hated running. I hated it. I remember in middle I had a knee injury and I had my doctor write a note saying I can’t run the mile like I absolutely hated it and then I actually danced a lot. Like I did ballet and tap, jazz all my childhood, and in high school, and even in college. But in middle school, I think it was like 7th or 8th grade, because I was doing so much outside of school activity 3 to 4 hours after school, I was able to get out of gym completely.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Fara: So, in middle school, I didn’t have to run. I didn’t have to participate in PE. It was amazing. And then in high school, because I was part of the dance team and the cheer team, I didn’t have to do PE. Instead, I was practicing with my cheer team or dance team. So, I never had to run.

John: Oh, yeah. It makes sense. It wasn’t until college— I wanna say it was my junior year of college. I wasn’t 21 yet, so 19 or 20. My girlfriend, she was a runner. She was a soccer player, started running. And she was in great shape. And at that point, I had a couple injuries. So, I wasn’t dancing as much. I was really working out a lot. I loved the gym and that’s like my playground. And I was like “Well, she can do it. Like she’s in great shape. She can do it. Well, why not? I’ll do it.” And so, I ran a 5K. And I was like “Oh, that was easy.” And then I signed up for a marathon, but I was petrified everyone’s gonna laugh. I was petrified to run outside. I had no idea.

This was before Strava even came around. Like there were no apps. I was either using a Discman to listen to music or like the very first iPods. I can’t remember. It was very clunky. And I was petrified to run outside because I didn’t know how to navigate roads or anything like that. So, I literally trained on a treadmill at the gym. I plopped myself in front of the TV because the college I went to had these great TVs and you can plug your headphones into the treadmill and listen. So, I was either watching the news or whatever rom-com they had on. And I would just run aimlessly on the treadmill and that’s how I trained for my first race.

John: And that’s also how you came to love Paul Rudd and Julia Roberts because they’re in all the rom-coms.

Fara: Yeah. The best time if anyone’s like how could you do it, I tell you the best times to run on a treadmill was like during a sporting event if it was like football or basketball March madness because you get like that adrenaline and you’re like “Go!” Yeah. I trained on a treadmill for my very first—

John: That’s impressive.

Fara: …race.

John: Well, you probably would have run a marathon from getting lost. So, I mean, it’s good that you didn’t go outside because you would have been like I just did two marathons just trying to get home. Like I don’t even know. Yeah. That’s so awesome. And so, you just got started there. And then ever since, you’ve just been signing up and going?

Fara: Yeah. I think part of it is like I’m a very competitive person and a part of it is the only competition is myself. So, whatever I set mentally, I was like “okay, this is what I’m gonna do” and I’m gonna achieve it. I’m not competing with anyone else. So, I think that was part of it. And then also, at that time, running wasn’t very popular. Even fitness was not the industry than what it is now. And so, I was like “Look at what I’m doing and look at what all you are doing. I’m way better.” It sounds terrible, but so many of my friends were achieving all these other things in whatever career they were doing.

John: In life.

Fara: Yeah. They’re getting married or having kids and like look what I’m doing. I’m doing these things that a lot of people can’t set out to do. That was also my motivation.

John: We’re each in our own lanes, you know, and doing our own thing. That’s great, you know, ‘cause I mean so many people feel like “Well, I have to do this certain thing or I have to be this certain way at work or in life.” And you don’t. You don’t at all. Like none of those things.

Fara: Yeah.

John: I would even venture to say that a good percentage of those people aren’t doing it because that’s who they are. They’re doing it because of those reasons of they feel like they have to, or be this thing, or whatever. And it’s like be you. That’s so cool. So, do you have a favorite race or some fond memories that you have from some of those?

Fara: I do. I have a few favorites. I have to say they’re half marathons, but the Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, they’re both full marathons and halves. but the Tel Aviv and Jerusalem races are epic. I did them— Oh, what years were they? 2016 and 2018 or 2019. I can’t remember when the Tel Aviv was. I mean, you are running through history. How epic is that? And it’s just being international. You see just a complete different culture of people running, the types of attire. I was just fascinated by how people train in different climates and stuff. So, it was just amazing. And it’s honestly the best way to see a city, is by running. So, so I prefer the half marathon distance because it’s less training than a full marathon, but you still tackle such grounds to see epic scenery. It’s a toss-up between those two.

John: Those are both awesome though.

Fara: Yeah. They’re great.

John: Yeah. And you’re right. I mean, instead of doing a walking tour, well, why don’t we just run this and I get a T-shirt? And like everything’s good.

Fara: And a medal.

John: Right. And a medal.

Fara: And a banana at the end.

John: A banana. Right. I did one half marathon in my life. And yeah, it was like “Give me the banana. Let’s go. I’m out. I’m retiring. This is enough.” You find out the guy from Kenya did it in like 10 minutes and I’m like out there for 2 hours. I mean, I broke 2 hours, so I was pretty impressed with that.

Fara: That’s great.

John: But then I was like “You know what? That’s good and I’m done so like we’re out.”

Fara: Yeah.

John: And so, that’s awesome all over the world. And the pictures that you have at What’s Your “And”? on the show page are really cool too.

Fara: Oh, yeah. Every race has a great memory to it.

John: Right?

Fara: Yeah. I just love it. Yeah.

John: It’s so cool. And is this something that you talk about with coworkers or clients? Does it come up?

Fara: It does come up. When I find out someone’s a runner or some sort of a weekend warrior, we usually end up geeking out a little bit about “oh, what are you trading for” or “what gym do you go to….” So, it’s a great conversation starter. It’s a great way to meet people. Whenever I travel, especially if I’m in a new city or if I move anywhere, I go find a gym, or a running club, or something and that’s the best way for me to connect with people, and meet people, and just build those different types of relationships.

John: Yeah. Even at work, it’s connecting on a human level as opposed to what work do you do. It’s like “Well, we’ll get to that in a minute like who are you?” That’s awesome.

And so, do you feel like the relationships with the people that are weekend warriors are maybe just a little bit different than everyone else in the office?

Fara: Yeah. I think we just have a different bond I guess.

John: Totally. Of course.

Fara: (A) You build a different relationship. So, I find it’s easier to work with people when you build that relationship. And then also, they set a goal and they try to achieve it. I don’t care how long it’s gonna take them. I don’t care if it takes them 16 weeks versus 8 weeks to train for something. I don’t care if they’re in shape or overweight. They set a goal. They’re trying to do it. And so, in a work environment, when you connect with people like that, they have that same mentality. I would say 95% of this type of person, they have that mentality. I’m gonna have a goal. I’m gonna do it. There might be multiple ways to get there, but I’m gonna do whatever it takes to get to my goal. So, it’s a great environment to work in because everyone wants to perform well at work. I shouldn’t say everyone. Most people want to.

John: Right. I mean, I’m sure there’s one.

Fara: Yeah. There’s always that one, but yeah. It helps working with people with like mindsets because at the end of the day, we wanna help each other succeed and we’re each other’s biggest cheerleader. So, it’s like “Okay, this is what you wanna achieve. Let’s figure out how we’re gonna tackle it together. What’s gonna be our training plan?” And we all know it’s not a sprint. It’s a marathon. So, we have to just chisel away each step of the way to get to that overall goal.

John: Yeah. No, I love it. And you’re right. I mean, you can’t ask someone to not bring that mindset to work because what am I supposed to come to work with? Like one arm tied behind my back? Like why would I do that? Like I have these other skills that are above and beyond my college degree, and my certifications, and my trainings that there’s a skillset that’s from your “and” and that mentality and that mindset certainly plays out at work. And you can’t turn it off.

Fara: No.

John: And it’s cool that you are proactive in wanting to find out about people. And even if they’re not weekend warriors, there’s something else, but it’s like, well, you have a different mindset, a different skillset than I do. So, when we need that, I’m definitely coming to you.

Fara: Oh, totally. Yeah. And you know, it’s kind of my philosophy— Some people agree with it. Some people don’t. But there’s more than one way to get somewhere. The same thing in a work environment. There’s more than one way and I bring a lot of strength to the table. I also don’t have a lot of strength, but that person might bring those other strengths. And then together, we can just create world domination.

John: There it is. There it is. That’s it. World domination, I love it. And the people think that there’s only one way or definitely not doing the best way. They’re just doing a way and they think it’s good enough and then they’re like okay, but then we’re just gonna do this. And it’s like not really.

Fara: Yeah.

John: You know, there’s other ways, but I love that so much. And I guess how much is it on an organization to be able to create that space to allow people to share or encourage people sharing their “ands” versus how much is it on the individual? Like in your case, it sounds like just finding out like just ask.

Fara: I think it’s a combination of both. It depends on the person. Some people might be very shy and closed, so they don’t want to share. And then that’s where I come in. I can kind of read people and, weird, I like to talk. I like to connect with people. So, I’m gonna be that person that’s gonna ask those questions anyway. But on the flipside, it’s great if people can come out and say “Oh, this weekend, I did X, Y, Z.” And so, that’s kind of the icebreaker and then you can start domino effect. “What’s your weekend hobby?” “Oh, running.” “Oh, what trail did you do?” Or this, that, and you kind of go down that rabbit hole and then it’s a great way to connect with people.

John: Yeah. I wonder how many rabbit holes you go down that are work related versus running related. I’m guessing not very many.

Fara: Yeah.

John: I mean, human nature, it’s just— You know, we think that the work-related conversation is what we have to do. Work gets done and you have to be good at your job. And you certainly have to get that done. It’s just it’s very rare that you’re running down these rabbit holes that are work related where you’re like “What? No way. What?” but when it’s something “and” related, then, man, we’re gone. I don’t even know what we did this afternoon. I just ordered a new pair of shoes. You got a new running watch. Like we’re all good. You know, we signed up for races in Jerusalem and what’s up? But that’s so cool to hear that that happens and that you’ve experienced that for sure. And I guess what would be some barriers to people not wanting to share? Maybe, like you said, they’re maybe a little shy.

Fara: I guess the barriers are they might not feel safe in that environment yet and it might take them some time to break it down, which is completely okay.

No one’s forcing you to talk about your personal life. So, I suggest waiting until you feel comfortable. Or if you overhear someone talking about it in a meeting, that’s when you can kinda chime in. Slack these days, they have different channels for different sports, different hobbies, or your different “ands.” So, that’s when you can join in those slack channels and kind of oversee and then slowly start that conversation. So, I used to be like that like not really wanting to talk about some of my personal stuff. I felt judged. I wasn’t sure. Now, over the years, I’m like whatever. If you don’t want to share, you don’t have to share, but then you’re also missing out on some sort of personable relationship that can help you in some way, shape, or form in the work environment. That’s kind of how I look at it.

One of my CMOs told me get to know a CFO quickly because they’re the ones that’s gonna give you the budget. A CFO that I used to work with, I think I saw a photo of him hiking or something. So, I just immediately like went there. I was like “Oh, I notice you hike.” Ask him the 20 questions and that was an icebreaker. We probably for like a month or two did not talk about work. I didn’t talk to him about teach me your CFO ways, like I wanna understand your lingo or anything. I just built that relationship first and asked him questions and then I was able to build a solid relationship. And you know what? I got almost every budget I wanted approved after that.

John: What do you know, right? I mean, it’s amazing how connecting as humans even though it’s in business, it’s still human to human transactions.

Fara: Right. Exactly.

John: And I love too how you were like I was afraid of being judged. I think most of that judgment is happening in our own minds.

Fara: Oh, totally.

John: Because once you started to share that you’re running, it’s like no one’s judging that. They were like “This is awesome. Like what? Like when’s your next one?”

Fara: Yeah. In 2 weeks actually.

John: Right. There you go. There you go. Yeah. And so, it’s just cool to hear how much of it is just in our own heads. And when you do share, and when you do get out, and when you do try to connect especially cross department like that, oh man, it’s magic and just what lights you up. Here’s what lights me up. And we’re humans and like let’s talk about it because it brings some emotion to work sort of a thing. To wrap this up, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone that maybe they like to run or they have another “and” that they feel like no one cares about or has nothing to do with their job?

Fara: If you feel like you’re the only one doing that, you’re not alone. There’s everyone out there doing some sort of “and” and maybe you’re not a runner, maybe you enjoy hiking, maybe you enjoy rollerblading, maybe it’s book club. I have a lot of friends who are faster runners than me or they’re more regimen about their eating habits. They have like a very strict diet especially race weekend, all this stuff. But at the foundation, we all have this thing like we enjoy doing something. We set this goal and we’re gonna achieve it. And I think that’s the thing that brings us together. So, don’t think you’re alone. There’s someone out there. I love actually connecting with newbies because I remember what it’s like as a newbie. It’s intimidating. I get so excited when people are like I’m doing my first 5K, 10K, whatever distance it is. I’m like I’m gonna be your biggest cheerleader. I text them in the morning, like race morning, good luck.

John: That’s awesome.

Fara: Because I remember what it was like. Almost every race I’ve gone myself, I’ve ran— it’s probably like 2 or 3 races I ran with people. So, I remember what that’s like and I didn’t have the support. And so, I just wanna provide that to people who might have those race day jitters and it builds a sense of community. And then also, I think another thing that I just love is that how people feel after. I just did that. I can’t believe I did that. And so, what an accomplishment to celebrate, so yeah.

John: Right. That’s super cool. Yeah. It’s just being alive and just sharing it. Like you said, slack channels are an easy way for you to just kind of creep around and you don’t even have to contribute. You just gotta look and you’re like “Oh, other people are doing this too.” And then eventually, you just share a little bit at a time and then what do you know. Before you know it, cool things and the CFO’s approving all your budget and like all that sort of goodness. That’s so awesome, Fara. Well, I feel like before we wrap this up, it’s only fair that I turn the tables because I so rudely asked you so many questions. We turn this into the Fara Rosenweig podcast and I’m your guest.

So, I’m all yours, whatever you wanna ask. Fire away.

Fara: First and foremost, I need to know what’s your “and.”

John: Okay. “And’s” college football, ice cream, concerts, play the piano a little bit, so yeah. I think those are good starts. So, definitely not running. Yeah. I retired after that half marathon.

Fara: But you know what? There’s a conversation there like “Oh, what half marathon did you do? You see what just happened?”

John: Yeah. Right.

Fara: Now, we’re connected.

John: In Indianapolis.

Fara: Okay.

John: And part of it was around the Indianapolis race track like the speedway.

Fara: So, that’s so cool.

John: Yeah.

]Fara: That’s so cool.

John: It was wild. 1And you don’t realize how banked that track is until you’re like running on it and you’re like “Woah, this is pretty slick. This is deep.”

Fara: So, you would never have even been able to experience that if you didn’t say “Hey, I wanna try running.” Now, you know you don’t wanna run, but you have this epic story when you ran on this track that no one’s ever been on.

John: Exactly right. Exactly right.

Fara: It’s so cool.

John: And my mantra the whole time was I didn’t wanna train as much as I guess you’re supposed to.

Fara: Yeah. That’s okay.

John: But my mantra was peak on race day. I was like I don’t wanna use up all my good stuff on training. I wanna use it all on race day. And luckily, I did all right.

Fara: Yeah.

John: Yeah. It’s all good. It’s all good.

Fara: You did it. That’s all that matters. You got to the finish line. You accomplished something. That’s epic.

John: Exactly. Exactly. There you go. Awesome. So, no, thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? And yeah, it’s just so great to have you be a part of this. So, thanks, Fara.

Fara: Oh, thank you. This was a pleasure John. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

John: So fun. And everyone, if you wanna see some pictures of Fara from some of her races or connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All that stuff is there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 483 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the workplace cultures where they are because of it.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Rick Maurer. He’s a speaker and adviser on change management and the author of seizing moments of possibility. And now, he’s with me here today. Rick, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Rick: Thanks, John. It’s good to be here.

John: Yeah. This is gonna be so much fun. Fellow trombone player. This is gonna be so awesome, but I do have some rapid-fire questions I have to ask before we get started. So, here we go. Maybe Star Wars or Star Trek?

Rick: Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. Yeah. Me too. Same. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Rick: Oh, PC.

John: Yeah. I’m the same too. All right. You might be just my ghost or Christmas future. It is what it is. We’re twins. Like this is.

Rick: Yeah.

John: How about when it comes to seasons? Summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Rick: Fall.

John: Yes. 3 for 3. This is amazing.

Rick: Oh, man.

John: All right. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Rick: Haagen-Dazs vanilla Swiss almond fudge.

John: Oh, wow. Okay. All right.

Rick: It’s amazing. Yeah.

John: Yeah. That does sound good. I haven’t had that yet. So, we’ll still count it. It’s an ice cream flavor, so that counts.

Rick: There you go.

John: How about a favorite day of the week?

Rick: Saturday.

John: Yeah. Totally. You just like veg out. Right?

Rick: Yeah.

John: Yeah. It’s not work where you don’t—

Rick: Well, I veg out every day, but yeah. But I don’t feel as guilty on Saturday.

John: There you go. I love it, man. That’s awesome. That’s so good. Since you are the trombone player, favorite position on the slide.

Rick: I don’t play a slide trombone. I play a valve trombone.

John: Oh! So then none of them. All right.

Rick: None of them.

John: In the first position. Like it’s your first position.

Rick: There you go. Yeah.

John: All right. So, you do the valve. Okay.

Rick: I do. Yeah.

John: All right. Is it still just 3 valves?

Rick: Yeah. It’s like the trumpet. I used to be a trumpet player.

John: Okay. Oh, there you go. All right. All right. That answers that one. Are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Rick: I wanna be a night owl. Unfortunately, life doesn’t work that way. So, I have to be an early bird. For instance, I did a call yesterday running a class for the Royal Danish Military Academy at 6 a.m. my time.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Rick: I know. But it’s really fun. So, I love doing these things. A lot of things in Europe, but it’s just these ungodly time.

John: Right. Right. Yeah. For me, it sounds ungodly. But yeah, for you, you’re like I’m ready to roll. Let’s do this.

Rick: Well, the miracle of caffeine helps a lot.

John: Right. Right. Yeah. I guess that’s true. I guess that’s true. How about a favorite number?

Rick: Wow. 7.

John: Yeah. Me too. Is there a reason? Like mine’s sports related for sure. I mean, you know, all the quarterbacks and all that whatever.

Rick: Oh, yeah. I have no idea why.

John: Yeah. No. That’s a good number. That’s a good number. How about books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Rick: I prefer real books. I tend not to use them as much, but I like having a book in my hand.

John: Yeah. Right. Okay. Okay. And you wrote a book, and the paperback and the audio version are on Amazon, but your e-Book is on your website, which is super cool. And what’s the website?

Rick: It’s rickmaurer.com.

John: Yeah. The e-Book is there if you wanna buy it and help them. The paperback and audio is there too, but the e-Book… So, that’s awesome, man. I just wanna plug it really fast.

Rick: Thank you.

John: All right. We got some more here. Cats or dogs?

Rick: Dogs.

John: Yeah. Me too. Same. I mean, yeah, cats are all right I guess, but I’m just afraid they’re gonna like swipe me, you know.

Rick: I’ll tell you. I was working in India and Kathy called me, my wife. And she said, “Hey, a friend of ours found these 2 kittens in a drain pipe outside.” Nothing about them seems like they’re feral. We’ve had them 3 years. They run to the door when we come home.

John: Oh. So, they’re like dogs.

Rick: They’re like low maintenance dogs.

John: Yeah.

Rick: Yeah, it’s really great. I like—

John: That’s great. You don’t have to let them out.

Rick: No, that’s right.

John: That’s right. That’s awesome. The low maintenance dogs. I love that. That’s so good. How about a puzzle? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzles?

Rick: The only ones I would ever even try is crosswords.

John: Okay. Yeah. That works. How about a favorite color?

Rick: Puce.

John: Oh, okay. All right. All right. Okay.

Rick: There you go.

John: That’s a first. Right? How about a least favorite color? Also puce. No, I’m just kidding.

Rick: Puce light I think.

John: Puce light. Pastel puce light

Rick: Yeah, that’s right.

John: That’s awesome. That’s hilarious. How about a favorite toppings on a pizza if you can load it up?

Rick: Oh, cheese. Just more cheese.

John: Oh, just more cheese. Okay.

Rick: Oh, yeah.

John: All right. Like a 4-cheese kinda. All right. I like that. All right. Three more. More shower or bath?

Rick: Shower.

John: Shower. There you go. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Rick: Well, Mark Rylance. A British guy. The fact that he was just in the movie, Don’t Look Up. He plays this kind of brilliant guy who owns the world.

John: Yes.

Rick: I’ve seen him live a few times. He’s marvelous.

John: Yeah. Yeah. That was a great movie.

Rick: Yeah.

John: How about a last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Rick: Favorite thing I have. On my wall here in my office, I have an album cover that Louis Armstrong signed for me.

John: Oh, what!

Rick: Yes.

John: That’s so cool, man. That’s great.

Rick: I went to a concert. My hometown in Ohio, it didn’t have a record store. The auto parts store sold records honest to God. And so, I knew I was gonna go see him. I wanted to get his autograph. And so, I had to drive over to the next town. And there was a candy store that sold records and they had one Louis Armstrong album. Not even a really good one, but I bought it. And at intermission, I went up and said “Mr. Armstrong, could I get your autograph?” And he said “Sure.” I wish I could do his voice because he was great. But he said “You don’t want just mine. Wouldn’t you like the bands’?” And I said “Yeah.” And he said “Well, come on backstage with me.”

John: That’s fantastic.

Rick: Yeah. So, he takes me back into the green room and all the guys are sitting there smoking. He said “Guys, this is Rick. Give him your autograph.” And one of the guys, the trombonist, heard the name wrong. And so, on the back of the record, it says “To Brick, have a great time.”

John: That’s awesome. Man, what a great story though. Like what a great experience and also too that he was like “Hey, I don’t do this without the whole band. Like do you want their autograph too?”

Rick: I was amazed. I mean, just to be in the presence. I’m not a star struck kind of guy, but man— I mean, he’s influenced me how I think about music, how I think about life in a lot of ways. To meet the guy was just like wow.

John: That’s awesome, man. I love it. That’s so cool and what a great memento and a cool thing to have on your office wall. That’s super cool, man. I love it. That’s great. So, let’s talk music and jazz. I mean, that leads right into it, which is perfect. I mean, did you grow up playing instruments?

Rick: I did. When the music teacher came around and said “so, who wants to play a musical instrument” and I did. So, there were some options, and I was watching— There was a show called Rin Tin Tin when I was a kid. And there was the bugler that would go out on these things with the cowboy. And I thought when we play cowboys, I wanan be the bugler. So, I got a trumpet and then I realized you could play other things other than that. I love classical and I love some country and all that, but I loved the whole idea of jazz. And we had a jazz big band in our school. And I couldn’t get enough. And some of my buddies and I formed a band. And it just stayed with me. I was a music major in college. Music was my life for a number of years.

John: That’s awesome, man. It’s so cool to hear. So then, it was trumpet and then valve trombone. Are there other instruments as well?

Rick: No. Actually, what had happened, I was playing in the concert band where I went to college. And I was sitting. There probably 12 trumpet players. And I was sort of in the middle of the section. And I realized by my sophomore year I was never gonna sit on that first stand. And I was talking to my teacher and I can’t remember if he said it or I said it. He said “Why don’t we try a bigger mouthpiece, which would be a trombone or euphonium?”

John: Baritone. Yeah. Yeah.

Rick: Yes, a baritone. And what was amazing is I was in the trumpet section and was just kind of in the pack. And when I switched instruments, I became section leader of the euphonium baritone section within a month. I was playing stuff I couldn’t even touch on trumpet. And so, I played that and then I went in the army as a musician on euphonium.

John: That’s incredible, man. That’s so awesome. Yeah. I mean, I started saxophone and then the re-vibration was weird on my teeth so that I went to trumpet because everyone you think plays trumpet.

Rick: That’s right.

John: But the mouthpiece was like too small for the way my mouth is and so yes. And then I went to trombone and I was like “Man, this is awesome.”

Like it’s great. Like it’s just perfect and a super fun instrument to play. And every once in a while, you get a little bit of a lead. But for the most part, you’re behind the scenes. But yeah, it’s funny when people are like “Oh, can you play this song?” And I’m like “I hope you like whole notes because it’s waaa… waaa…” Like I totally get to 1812 Overture, then let it rip, buddy. That’s where we come out like here it is. That’s so great to hear. You created a band like with your buddies and all that. Like that’s fun because it’s like you can’t get enough of it type of a thing. So, do you have like a favorite concert, or a rewarding story, or something that comes to mind over your playing days or even now?

Rick: Yup. 10 years ago, I got to know a guy named Carl Berger up in Woodstock, New York. And he was a pioneer in avant-garde jazz and free jazz. And what he got really good at is teaching people to play more spontaneously. So, even if they were playing written music, how do you plant— Like if you go to hear a tribute band or some of them they’re asleep at the wheel— I don’t mean the group asleep in the wheel.

John: Right.

Rick: And others who are going “Wow.” And so, he teaches you how to do that. So, he wanted to write a book. He’s German. And he said, “I speak English okay.” But he said, “I really like you to help me write it because you have written a lot of books, and I like what you’re doing with my stuff.” So, we wrote the book. It came out a couple of years ago. And 2 months ago, a buddy of mine, Mike Gaston, and I, went up to Woodstock. We live in the Washington, DC area. And we spent a day in a recording studio with Carl and Ken Filiano who is a very adventurous bass player. I had no desire for this to turn into something that I’m going to inflict on friends and relatives. What I wanted to do was the discipline of being in the studio, no music in front of me, a mic right there. And the way it was setup is so we can all see each other. We didn’t have baffles and all that stuff and just spending a day there and just trying stuff out. Carl said “All right. So, how about this?” He said “I’ll start something. Mike, you start something. Ken, you start something. Rick, you start something and then you just start improvising whatever you wanna do.” And it was a highlight.

John: It’s a magical moment, man. That’s super cool ‘cause, I mean, that’s the thing. I mean, I’m good at reading music, you know, playing the piano as well. But yeah, for jazz, I was good at the music side of it, but then it’s like “Okay. Now, it’s time for a trombone solo.” And I’m like “Ahhhh… Can you write it out for me?” I guess it just wasn’t as confident. You know what I mean? Especially when you’re in high school. You’re just sort of like, yeah, just not as confident in going off script. Like with the music in front of me, I’m great. Like I can totally read this and nail it, and give 2 times through and we’re good, but yeah. So, that’s an awesome experience and something where— because I mean that’s the weird thing, is life isn’t scripted. You know, this conversation is definitely not scripted. And so, you know, we do it every day and yet you put an instrument in my hand and I’m like “Ahhhh..” It’s like “Who cares? Like it doesn’t matter.” What is it supposed to be? And it’s like whatever you want it to be, man. Just let it go.

Rick: What you just said is certainly important in my life. I mean, the whole notion of starting with the structure, the tune, and then being able to improvise is exactly how I treat my work. I mean, if I had to do something day after day… “Hi! Today, we’re going to talk about… Oh, I have a story for you.” If I had to do the same stuff every day, I don’t know what I would do.

John: You would quit. Right? Right?

Rick: Yeah. So not only do I get to think about stuff, I get to keep trying stuff out. Everything always feels like a work progress and that works for me. I mean, it’s sloppier than the people who everything is scripted and now they cry on cue.

John: Right. Oh. Yeah.

Rick: I know. Yeah. That’s not me for better for worse. That’s what keeps my work refreshing at least for me.

John: No, I love it, man. And it’s just how much that music translates into your career. No one told you to play jazz and be a great musician and all this because it will make you better at your career, better consultant, but it clearly does. It clearly does. You know, our “and” give us the skillset that other people don’t have that maybe have the same degree or the same job title, but we have a different skillset.

Rick: Yeah. And you know, when I got out of college and then got out of the army, I enlisted in the army band. I was in for 3 years. I did not make it a career, although the band’s a really good band. I’m not a big fan of concert band music. I mean, it was fine when I played it, but I didn’t want that to be my career. And I also played a Herald trumpet, a bass Herald trumpet. And there are 16 of us and we would just follow the president around playing the chief.

John: Right. Yeah.

Rick: That was actually fun as a young guy, but I didn’t wanna make that a career. And so, and I quit playing. I basically quit playing for a lot of years.

John: Oh, wow.

Rick: But I’d go hear concerts. I would go to jazz clubs. I would be in my mind singing souls. And so, finally, I thought enough of this and I went on e-Bay, bought a trombone, got a teacher. And I said “Look, I wanna learn to play jazz.” That was, I don’t know, 15-16 years ago. Something like that. I had three really big consulting contracts. I mean, if you had looked at them, you would have gone “Woah, this is great.” And they were very lucrative. I mean, everything about it was really good except I hated all three of them. And I didn’t know that going in. And I mean, two of them, the clients just were acting in bad faith with each other. I mean, they just wanted to say “No. Well, we hired this guy. He wrote a book. And it didn’t make a difference.” But the third one, I said yes to something that didn’t excite me anymore. As a younger man, I would have gone “Wow, it’s a lot to learn in this.” And I didn’t realize I was phoning it in, and I didn’t like that about myself. And I didn’t realize it until way too late at any rate. So, I say to my wife “I am not good at this anymore.” And she said, “You know, I don’t think you’ve lost all your skills in the last 6 months. Maybe you were never any good.”

John: There you go. There you go.

Rick: You gotta see people. When I tell that story, people “Oh, you poor baby.”

John: No, no, that’s awesome. That’s so awesome.

Rick: She said “You know, you could be retired if you wanted. But if you wanna work, why don’t you back off a little bit and play more music?” And it took me a while to come around to that. And it’s funny. I was talking to a woman who had been a student of mine. And it’s funny. I was talking to a woman who had been a student of mine at the Gestalt Institute of Cleveland. And I was telling her the story. And she said “So, did you listen to your wife?” And I said “Well, not yet.” And she said “Why?” And I said “Well, you know, I don’t wanna retire. The concept just doesn’t fit for me.” But I said “I wanna know that I have the money there that in case I had to retire or something.” And she said “Well, how much more money do you need?” I said “I don’t know.” And she said “That will keep you working.”

John: Yeah.

Rick: So, the combination of Kathy making the joke and then Kim saying you gotta know what you need, I started thinking what if I only take on contracts that I think is gonna give me as much pleasure as music.

John: Oh, wow.

Rick: And so, it’s not like just taking time to make music, which I do. I mean, even right before our call, my horn is sitting arm’s length right here. I will play it later today. But how do I say yes to things that are going to enliven me just like practicing? And that’s made a huge difference. I might not have listened to someone giving me that advice when I first started because I was too hungry and I was trying to make a mark or something. But man, it’s made a huge difference in the quality of the work for me as well as I think for some of my clients.

John: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, you can tell. Like you said, you know, phoning it in and just kind of just going through the motions and whatever. And it’s so interesting to hear how you had put music aside for a long time because you thought “well, you know, that’s not what pays the bills or that’s not what’s important or whatever” and come to find out like that’s the foundation. That’s your joy and where you get the magic. If you don’t go to that well often enough, then you’re not as good of a person, let alone consultant, that you could be. So, it’s just cool to hear the difference between the non-music playing Rick and the now back to music playing Rick.

Rick: It’s a huge difference. Yeah.

John: Yeah. It’s just more alive I guess. It’s that source of life I guess. There’s depth to our “and” in these passions that we have outside of work. There’s real depth there. And I feel like it’s so easier for us to just put it on the backburner because that’s the first thing that’s “Well, it doesn’t matter, whatever.” But then it’s 10 years later and you’re like “What the hell? I haven’t done this in forever.”

Rick: I, I guess last year, started reading Harpo Marx’s autobiography. Your listeners might not know Harpo Marx, but you know his brothers.

John: Yeah. The Marx brothers.

Rick: Yes. He’s great at comedy.

John: And genius like wicked smart, people.

Rick: There you go.

John: Yeah.

Rick: I’m gonna paraphrase what the first paragraph was. But basically, he said “You know, I don’t know if in my life I’ve been a success or a failure.” And he said “But not knowing and actually not caring has allowed me to try out things I might never have tried out.” And I thought that could have been my mantra. Of course, I wanna be successful or I wanna do things well, but I’ve tried all kinds of things. Playwriting, a bunch of things. I didn’t make some national mark, but it was so much fun to do and to try out stuff.

So, to wait and say “okay, next year, I’m gonna do it” seemed—

John: That’s such a great quote. Plus too, like as people move up the corporate ladder, it’s like “well, now I’m the CFO” or “now, I’m the whatever C suite title, or even a manager title, or whatever.” And it’s like “Well, I can’t go and do that. It will look dumb if I’m not successful at it.” It’s like “No, it won’t.” It doesn’t matter. I mean, we’re all going through life. You know, I just love that where it’s give it a go. Who cares? You know, unless you’re Oprah— Like if you go by one name, then, all right, people are gonna— But even then, she’s so big that she doesn’t care. She’ll try things. Like it doesn’t matter. The lies we tell ourselves are so brutal and so limiting really. I mean, I’m as guilty of this as anybody. And so, it’s just cool to hear your experience through that and how important it is because there’s someone listening now that I’m sure had an “and” at one point and let it go. And it’s like “Get it back. Like what are you doing?” Right?

Rick: Yeah. I just thought of another story. My dad always kind of thought that these choices I was making were kind of really whackadoodle. Like what is he doing this time? And so, when I started writing plays, I was studying. And so, Kathy and I went home to my home for Thanksgiving. And my mom and Kathy had gone up to bed. And my dad and I are sitting there having a beer. And I never asked my dad for advice ever. Just wasn’t what I did because I never wanted to hear it.

John: Right.

Rick: But honest to God and I said—

John: No. No. It’s true. Yeah.

Rick: Yeah. And so, I said “I can use your advice.” I said “You know, I’ve been studying playwriting and have done some workshop things.” I said “I’m working on this play that I think could really actually be something good, but I need to take time to do it, which means I need to back off. Do you have any advice for me?” And he said “Yeah.” He started a furniture store in my hometown. And he said, “You know, I was working for a furniture store. It was really well-established.” And he said “I couldn’t get a loan from a bank.” And he said “I remember going into one bank and they said, well, Eddie, you have the most secure job in town. It’s been there for a century.” And my dad said “Oh, no, no. I have a job even more secure than that.” And they said “Really? What?” he said “I was in the army. They even gave me my underwear.” So, we both are laughing. And he said “You don’t wanna get to be 60 and go I wonder. I wonder if.” And he suddenly became my biggest supporter for that. He and my mom would come out and see when I had plays produced. I mean, it was really neat.

John: Yeah. What a powerful moment where you think “Well, he doesn’t get me. He doesn’t understand.” And he gets it 100% type of thing. Yeah. I’ve spoken at some like executive retreats or like partner retreats for professional services firms. And one in particular was a pretty huge— There were probably 120 partners for this accounting firm. And three of them were retiring. And it was an hour of stories about them. And there wasn’t a single mention of the amount of revenue they brought into the firm, or the number of clients, or number of hours they worked, or anything. They were just stories about life and who they were as people and things that we did outside of work and just all that. And I’m like “If you’re at the top, then, man, this is what really matters, you know.” So, everyone all along should also know that this is what matters or these stories. That’s so powerful, man. So powerful. And I love it so much. And I imagine too that the jazz plays into the change management that you do the consulting with because, like you said, I mean it’s unscripted and here we go. And you know, how do we work this out sort of thing.

Rick: Yeah. I mean, one of the things— It’s funny. In the book, I’m really talking about how do you blend support into what you’re already doing rather than change management sometimes is “Okay, when we have time, we’ll bring in the change management stuff.” And what I’m saying is “no, it needs to be blended in”, which means in some way or another you’re improvising. You’re trying something out like “Okay, if I did this presentation without slides, what might happen?” So, you’re just doing these tweaks here and there, but it’s a great way to learn. It’s also I think more fun.

John: Yeah. I mean, ‘cause the pressure isn’t there because it’s like “Well, it’s probably gonna fail 50% of the time or whatever” or we’ll see what happens. It’s experimental as opposed to this is the only answer type of thing.

Rick: It’s experimental within a structure. I mean, I’m not a fan of— I mean, some of the places where I studied. We’re all gonna get a room. Let’s see what emerges. I hate that. I just hate that. I’ll start the incense and give me a cab. I’ve gotta get out of here.

You’re there to do some work. Everybody knows we’re here to do some work, but the how we do it and the way we engage each other, there’s a lot of flexibility there. So, that’s really important to me. And so, that’s what I hope I bring always when I’m doing work.

John: For sure. Yeah. And I mean, it’s that music side of you that comes out. You know, you can’t hide it. You can’t not have that music brain turn on. And I love it so much, man. That’s awesome. So, Rick, before we kind of wrap up, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe has an “and” that they put on the backburner for a while or they don’t talk about at work because they don’t think it matters?

Rick: I realize that everyone’s situation can be different and there may be good reasons for saying I’ve got to put all this on the backburner for now.

John: Sure.

Rick: I also realized you may be paying the price if you’re doing that. And so, I would say even in a little way, if you can start to bring whatever that passion is into the work, I think it makes a difference in our actual work, but I think it makes our lives— for me at any rate, makes our lives richer.

John: For sure.

Rick: You know, more excitement in getting up in the morning.

John: No. Absolutely, man. I agree totally. So, it’s so cool to have you be a part of this. And I feel like it’s only fair since I peppered you with just questions at the beginning that I turn the table and make this the first episode of the Rick Maurer podcast. Thanks for having me on your show. So, whatever questions you’d like to ask—

Rick: I’m sorry, Joh, but we’re out of time. Hey, but it was great talking—

John: Exactly. I actually had a good friend who was booked on Letterman. And the first guest went long. It was like “Well, you got to come back.” And they weren’t able to come back. But yeah, you tell everybody “I’m gonna be on Letterman” and then “Well, no because so and so ran their mouth too long.” That’s hilarious. That’s so funny. Yeah, John, we’re done.

Rick: Actually, what I am curious about is— I mean, obviously, I agree with you on the “and” stuff, but what prompted you to say “Oh, I wanna go public with that, I wanna have a podcast about that kind of thing”?

John: That’s a great question. So, yeah. So, I was speaking at a conference, a pretty big conference. And I was backstage getting mic-ed up and the meeting professional comes back and she says “Hey, do you know this guy named Mark?” I’ll leave his last name off just for safety’s sake. And I was like “No, I’ve never heard that name in my life.” And she goes “Well, he knows you. He saw the speakers and right away goes “I know John Garrett. That’s the guy who did comedy at night.” I was like “What? Like who is this rain man? Like do I owe him 50 bucks? Like what’s going on?” So, I speak. I get off stage. I look on my link. He was in my first PWC office 12 years before that, and he was in the tax department, and I was one of those CPAs that doesn’t know how taxes work. So, I never went to that floor. I don’t know what Mark looks like. I never talked to mark. I never anything. And he remembers me for a hobby I did outside of work. And so, I started asking people like “Hey, do you have a hobby outside of work?” And people were kind of like “Keep it on the down low, but I like to…” you know, whatever their “and” was.

Almost everyone has something. And no one’s talking about it. And so, let’s just blow the doors off and make it a podcast where we all get to share what lights us up and what brings us joy and then other people get to hear it and then realize that they’re the norm. Like the stereotypical professional is somebody that has other dimensions to them besides work. And for too long, the 8% who don’t have a hobby or passion have bullied the 92% of us to believe that we have to act a certain way and you don’t. There’s so many different successful professionals out there that all look and sound totally different than the next. And why are we all trying to be like one thing? And it’s not even a cool thing. It’s super lame. At least be like a cool thing. Bring yourself to work. It’s more than just the authenticness. It’s just what lights you up. Start small. Yeah, that’s how it all started.

Rick: Oh, that’s great.

John: No, I appreciate it, Rick. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? and, yeah, also just taking time to be a part of the show. So, thanks, man.

Rick: Oh, you’re welcome. It’s a pleasure.

John: Everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Rick playing his trombone or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 481 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. It goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and now listening to it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Ashley Dodge. She’s the executive director of growth at Bigwidesky where they make brands more human, which I love. Absolutely awesome. And now, she’s with me here today. Ashley, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Ashley: Thank you for having me. I’m so excited.

John: Yeah. This is gonna be a blast, but I do have some rapid-fire questions to get to know actually out of the gate here. We’ve hung out a couple times and I’ve never asked. And I feel like I probably should have.

Ashley: Let’s have at it. What are the burning questions?

John: Okay. Burning question. I’ll start maybe an easy one. A favorite color.

Ashley: Green. Absolutely.

John: Okay. Okay. Nice. How about a least favorite color?

Ashley: Ooh, black. Because it always shows dog hair.

John: There you go. It is so funny how the least favorite color is always wrapped around something clothing or like what looks good on me, so the dog hair. There you go.

Ashley: Exactly.

John: That’s hilarious. How about a TV show that you would binge watch?

Ashley: I really don’t watch TV.

John: Okay. No, fair enough. Fair enough. That’s awesome. Very good. I really don’t. It’s not just I don’t. I really don’t.

Ashley: And I don’t even have a TV. I think the last one I binge watched was Peaky Blinders, but that was over a year ago.

John: Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s a great show though, but yeah. Absolutely. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw?

Ashley: Oh, man. Probably Jigsaw.

John: Okay. The picture.

Ashley: Yeah. Very old school.

John: No. Okay. How about favorite toppings on a pizza?

Ashley: Pineapple.

John: Oh, just pineapple. Okay.

Ashley: Just pineapple. Yeah. I’m a vegetarian.

John: There you go. I mean, cheese and sauce of course, but yeah.

Ashley: Oh, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. The cheese is like required.

John: Right. Yeah. I mean, the psychos with no cheese is like “What? What are you talking about?”

Ashley: Even if it’s vegan cheese, it’s at least some kind of cheese, right?

John: Yeah. Something that looks like it. Right? Yeah. Exactly. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Ashley: Harrison Ford. I’ve always been a huge fan.

John: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. He is always good in stuff. How about would you say more shower or bath?

Ashley: Shower. I think only psychos take baths. Why are you just sitting in that? Like what? It’s like human soup.

John: That’s hilarious. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Ashley: Ooh, Star Wars definitely.

John: Yeah. Me too, although that’s Harrison Ford. He’s not in Star Trek, so that answers that one.

Ashley: Exactly.

John: Right? Duh! How your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Ashley: I’m a Mac user. I feel so unable to do anything on a PC. I’m always very confused.

John: Huh? Interesting. I’m not cool enough to like go into a Mac store I don’t think. Like I just feel intimidated by the all white.

Ashley: Microsoft does a really good job of making their brick and mortars look pretty legit too I feel like.

John: Yeah. They’re coming around.

Ashley: Right. But most people just still order things online these days. Right?

John: Right. Exactly. It’s like how do you know they have a store? That’s amazing. How about a favorite season? Sumer, winter, spring, or fall?

Ashley: Ooh, I really love spring because it’s been cold and windy. You finally get all the warmth that comes from spring. It’s magical especially in Colorado ‘cause you’ll have snow on the ground still and then crocus is popping up. It’s just such a magical contrast.

John: Right. That is true. Yeah. And it’s like 55 and you’re wearing shorts. You’re like it’s so warm

Ashley: It’s so warm.

John: Right? How about a favorite ice cream flavor? I’m a huge ice cream junkie.

Ashley: Ooh, I really love cake batter. I don’t like cake batter as itself. But as an ice cream, it’s my favorite.

John: Right. Yeah. ‘Cause cake batter is kind of like what are you doing, but you make it an ice cream and it’s amazing.

Ashley: Right.

John: Right? It’s so weird how that is. Yeah. But no, that’s an excellent choice. How about early bird or more of a night owl?

Ashley: Oh, I’m both unfortunately.

John: Oh, wow.

Ashley: Yeah. I like to wake up in the morning really early and wake my dog. But then at night, I also stay up pretty late.

John: Wow.

Ashley: I’ll sleep when I’m dead.

John: Are you like taking a nap in the middle? Oh, you’ll sleep when you’re dead.

Ashley: Yes. Oh, yeah. Oh, no. I definitely love naps. Yeah. A good 5 p.m. nap is great.

John: Naps are so underrated. Yeah, naps are awesome. Yeah. So good. How about a favorite Disney character?

Ashley: Mulan.

John: Oh! Yeah! Very good.

Ashley: She was like breaking stereotypes. I love it.

John: Totally. Totally. How about a favorite number?

Ashley: 13.

John: Oh, really?

Ashley: Yeah, it’s my birthday.

John: Oh, okay. There you go. I just wasn’t sure how counter everyone you were trying to be, but at least you have a reason.

Ashley: Yeah. If you can turn it into a lucky thing whatever people say it’s bad, I don’t have a choice. It’s always going to be my birthday. So, turn it into your lucky number.

John: Right. We’re gonna make it happen. Okay. I got three more. When it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Ashley: Oh, I really love real books. I both bought your real book, What’s Your “And”?, but then I also listened to it on audio.

John: Oh, wow. And it is my voice. Right?

Ashley: I will do both quite often. Right. It’s like it really was him. Oh, here’s a tricky one. How about a cheeseburger or pizza?

Ashley: Ooh, pizza for sure.

John: Oh, okay. Okay.

Ashley: Yeah. That’s a very Denver question, right, ‘cause we got a lot of good burgers in town, but we also have—

John: Yeah. Yeah. They got some fancy burgers going on here in some of the places in Denver. I just had one the other day. Fried bologna burger. So, it’s like fried Bologna cheeseburger patty, potato chips. It was nuts.

Ashley: That’s a very American burger.

John: And of course, I had to get it.

Ashley: Yeah. You can’t not.

John: Right? I was like, of course, I’m getting this. The fact you have other burgers on your menu was weird to me. There should just be this. Okay. Now, last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Ashley: I think the favorite thing I have is a dog.

John: Yeah. And what kind of dog is it?

Ashley: He’s a lab mix.

John: Oh, okay. All right.

Ashley: He’s 90 pounds. His name is Hans Gruber. He’s named after the villain from Die Hard.

John: Right. That is so great. And 90 pounds, which leads right into your “and”, so we might as well just talk about Hans and let’s get it going.

Ashley: Yeah.

John: Yes. So, did you grow up with dogs?

Ashley: Yeah. When I was a little kid, I loved this book that is called The Night I followed my dog. And there’s this trend on social media right now where it’s like show us your childhood dream dog and then show us your dog. And a lot of people have dogs that they loved when they were kids and they were part of books. And now, they have it as an adult. And this book called The Night I Followed My Dog looks just like Hans. And so, it’s really funny because subliminally I was just like already making that decision 30 years later.

John: Yeah, that’s awesome. Yeah. And then when you’re an adult, it’s like, well, I can actually go get it. Like I can actually have a dog like that.

Ashley: I’m the adult.

John: Right? I know. It’s hard to remember that.

Ashley: Yeah. He’s definitely my passion. He’s definitely where I spend most of my time and effort outside of work.

John: That’s so fantastic. Like how long have you had him?

Ashley: I got him in 2017 and we didn’t really know his birthday. So, we just gave him Alan Rickman’s birthday because it was easy to remember.

John: That’s so great. That’s awesome. With Hans, is there like stuff you like to do with him? Because I feel like he’s pretty active for a dog.

Ashley: Yeah.

John: Like he’s living a good life.

Ashley: He does. He has his own Instagram actually. And most of it is us going to get pastries or going on hikes or road trips, so yeah. Very enriching life.

John: Right. That’s awesome. That’s so great. And so, is there like one of the more of fun trips that you feel like you’ve had with Hans?

Ashley: Yeah. We went to Florida 3 years ago and I put him on a plane. He was doing therapy dog training. And so, it was pre— Like you know, they’ve updated the flight requirements. But really, he just needed to go through therapy dog training with a group called The Go Team basically, similar to that. And so, he did all the therapy dog training and then unfortunately he was diagnosed with heart failure at the age of 2. And I was like just devastated.

John: Oh, my gosh.

Ashley: And they were like he has 6 months to live. And so, I kind of treated him like a make a wish kid and said we are going to Florida. He is gonna swim with dolphins and that’s what we did. I just put him on a Frontier flight. They let him sit on the floor and then we flew. It was really pretty easy.

And we just camped and then stayed at a hotel there for a couple days and it was magical. And I realize he’s great on planes, trains, and automobiles.

John: There you go. There you go. That’s awesome and then he shattered that so like he’s—

Ashley: Right.

John: …healthy and—

Ashley: Yeah. He’s basically lived 6 times the 6 months that he was given. So, it’s pretty awesome.

John: Yeah.

Ashley: Oh, yeah. Now, he’s 5.

John: That’s such a cool story. Yeah. And like he’s telling all his friends like you’ll never believe. Just act like you’re gonna die in 6 months and you get to swim with dolphins.

Ashley: It’s an elaborate ruse.

John: Yeah. At the dog party, he’s like whispering to all the other dogs like “Hey, just try it.”

Ashley: Just cough. Right? My mom has a little pond in her backyard and he loves to chase the catfish in the back of the pond. So, when he saw dolphins, he just thought that that was gonna be something similar. He started chasing after the dolphins that were pretty far away and was like “Oh, my gosh. Come back. Come back.”

John: Right. Right. They’re bigger, and faster, and smarter.

Ashley: Right.

John: Yeah. You’re not gonna catch ‘em. This isn’t a pond. There’s no other side.

Ashley: Right. He’s also great to like open up conversations with. Like I had to interview a recruiter for the foreign service in Colorado and the Rocky Mountain region. And I was like “You know, I have a master’s degree in international affairs, but I’ve never really used it because I don’t want to travel and have to give up my dog.” And he’s like “No. Dogs are the opposite actually. Your dog is the conversation starter. It’s how you meet the locals.” And I had never realized your pets can actually do a lot of the talking for you.

John: Which is such a great point. And so, is this something that’s come up at work? Do people know about Hans?

Ashley: Yeah. Unfortunately, I bring him with me everywhere. Because of his heart failure status, every day is a gift. Right? He doesn’t come on business meetings. But anytime I’m in the office, he’s just always there. And with everyone working from home all the time, I’m sure there’s plenty of your listeners also have similar relationships with their dogs or their co-workers during the day.

John: Right. Right. Exactly.

Ashley: You have a pup too.

John: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Rocket. Yeah. He’s like a terrier mix like 34 pounds of awesome. And dogs are so smart. They learn your routine. Like you can’t see a clock or know time, but he knows when 5:00 hits. And he’s like pulling under your arm like get out of the chair like we’re done working for the day. And it’s just amazing how he’s so good at that.

Ashley: And he runs like a rocket. He is so fast. My dog cannot keep up with him because Hans is 90 pounds of pure bulk and Rocket is just gonna do circles around him.

John: Right. Yeah. Rocket’s fun at the dog park. That’s for sure. He’s not always the fastest dog, but he’s that combination of fast and sly.

Ashley: Yes.

John: Yeah. It’s hard to catch him. But that’s so cool like people know about Hands. Like you’re bringing him to work. Like you’re talking about him. Like you’re staring him like it’s a family member basically.

Ashley: Absolutely. He also is good ice breaker sometimes because like people can really empathize with that. So, sometimes when you have a difficult conversation about to come up, he’s really good. He is a great introduction into that before.

John: Taking hard stuff.

Ashley: Exactly. Exactly. It’s like “Oh, let me tell you I’m a human. And at least my dog likes me, so you should too.”

John: Just look at him. See?

Ashley: Right? I can keep them alive like I promise. This project has hope.

John: Yeah. Right. I’ll bring you to swim with dolphins too. We’ll all go swimming with dolphins. It’s like a thing. It’s what we do. Yeah. So, do you feel like— I mean, it sounds like it’s really cool like the ice breaker humanizes you with others as far as having that outside of work interest. Do you feel like there’s a skillset that you bring to work or maybe a different lens the way you look at things?

Ashley: So, I’m sure you’ve experienced this with Rocket. But if you don’t have a certain level of consistency and clarity in the way that you communicate with your dog, they get confused about what they want you to do. And so, I think that dog training has really taught me a lot about how to be consistent, follow the same rules, and make sure that I’m clear about the words. So, sometimes I have a habit of instead of being like come here, I’ll be like “Come here. Hold my hand.” And he’ll just look at me like “What?” And so, I learned that I can’t just say certain things. He’s like you really have to be clear with your directions and they can be really smart and acquire more language. And like you said, they develop other aspects of your habits, but you really have to start at a very small basic level. And I think that the same can be said when you’re training how you interact with other people, is you have to be clear and concise and then you can build on those foundations.

John: Right. No. That’s such a great point that I never really thought about because, yeah, we did dog training and I felt it was more human training than it was dog. It was more like teach me to say the same thing every time.

And imagine if we sent new managers to dog training how much better managers would be communicating and just everything would be better. So, that’s such a great parallel. I never thought about that.

Ashley: I’m always like “Why won’t he listen to me?” And the dog trainer for the first year was like “Are you excited to do this?” I’m like “No, but what I say matters. Right?” And he’s like “No. You can’t just say a command and he wants to do it. You have to have it be something that you’re excited about too because he can tell you don’t care either. So, you have to both be fully engaged in this experience and make it fun.” And it’s amazing how when I say come in a very flat term, but then if I say “come here, buddy; come here; come here” and you clap and you make it exciting, of course they’re gonna be excited. And I think the same can be said in any kind of professional around no matter what you do.

John: Absolutely.

Ashley: If it’s not fun, people disengage and then they’re like “Why do I care?”

John: Right. Yeah. And sometimes work is not gonna be fun, but you can at least make it enjoyable. You can make it pleasant. You can talk about your Hans and then, okay, now we got to buckle down and get the work done. But no, I love that. That’s so fantastic. And I guess how much is it on the organization to create that space for people to be able to share their answer? How much is it on the individual to just kind of create that space there on their own?

Ashley: Leaders have to use that as a primary value to say we care about you as a human being. At Bigwidesky, a lot of the work that we end up doing is actually trying to reintegrate appreciation for being human. And it’s funny that I’m talking about like how we have to appreciate dogs to appreciate our own humanity in some ways, but it really is true that there are so many ways that we kind of try to flatten people out in work and then we wonder why it’s not working. But if we actually allow people to be these dynamic wonderful human beings, then they’re able to thrive in the spaces that you have hired them for, but also in other spaces and really help the organization grow and thrive in ways that you haven’t even laid out in some sort of strategic plan, right, if they become stakeholders not only within the lane that you put them in and give them all of those tools and resources to succeed. But if you also give them and empower them to be these full human beings outside of work as well, they’re going to return to work with a lot more enthusiasm and dedication.

John: Man, that was so good. So many good things there. Yeah. I mean, it’s basically “Are your people living their best life?”

Ashley: Yeah.

John: Because it used to be are my people doing their best work? And it’s like “Well, let’s go one step beyond that. And if you’re not living your best life, you’re not gonna be doing your best work. So, how about we focus on make sure that you’re living your best life? And then if you’re doing that, then the work is gonna happen.”

Ashley: Exactly. I had a crisis of meaning in that way, right? Like I just didn’t really know what drove me in a lot of ways. I was just clocking in and clocking out. I was working in insurance. And everyone knows that that is not exactly the sexiest of industries. That can be really tiresome and feel kind of like you’re just shuffling money and paperwork around all the time. But bringing him into my life really enriched my day at the very beginning because instead of just going straight to work, I had to be outside for an hour and enjoy the sunshine and create new habits and structures into my day that really got me moving and excited about the day. And it changed everything about my life. The way I approach things, the way I want to live the most out of it. And if you think about dogs, like they have so much appreciation for loyalty and love no matter how much you’ve disappointed them in the past. They just always let you get another chance and I feel like if we could take that fresh approach to the people that we work with, I think that that lends itself well to getting a lot farther in whatever we end up at.

John: That’s rich right there. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I bring Rocket to the vet and he’s not excited and then we come home and he’s like “Hey, let’s play.” And I’m like “Oh, man, I thought you were gonna be pissed for like a month.”

Ashley: But they do remember the vet. I mean, there are certain people we can’t forget of, but Hans loves his vet. They do a really good job of making sure that he is making the most of that vet appointment because he’s terrified there.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. But it’s so good of just giving people the benefit of the doubt. They’re trying their best. And if they’re not, then coach them. And if you’re able to talk with them about their “ands” before and after just in life on a regular basis, then when you do have to pull them aside, that critical feedback isn’t so critical now because it’s just 1 out of 10 conversation where it’s a hard conversation. The other 9 are awesome. So, it shows I care sort of a thing.

Ashley: And it makes it harder to flatten out your coworkers too.

So, when things aren’t going well, you can’t be like “Well, he just does X, Y, and Z.” It’s like they’re a whole human outside of the sphere that you’re interacting with them as. And so, it’s easier to be empathetic and invested in their success as well.

John: Yeah. Because, I mean, you hire the whole person, not just the technical skills part that’s doing the work. So, how about we learn about and shine the light on the whole person type of thing? It’s so confusing to me why that isn’t the default mode.

Ashley: I think it really is in higher level executive things, but I think that it makes it safer to do it when you think of other people maybe below you as them just being a resume. Right? But I think executives do it all the time. Right? They bond less over the spreadsheets of profit margin. They bond over what watch they both like, or the kind of sports car they have, or whatever it is. Whiskey. They don’t actually apply that more robustly within the organization like they should. But I think when it comes to executives connecting with other executives, that’s already built in. They just need to apply and extend that throughout the organization.

John: Yeah. Make it vertical because it’s more horizontal like in your peer group. But when a staff person walks in, ooh, everybody acts serious because we’re supposed to be whatever. And it’s like “What are you doing? Like stop. No.” That’s the time to actually not do it more. So then, people “below” you in different titles see that as well.

Ashley: There’s a book called Creativity Inc. where he talks about how when Pixar and Disney merged, they made a lot of changes to flatten themselves out too, and the things that had been previously celebrated we’re kind of torn down and it caused a friction with morale, but then they realized leadership wasn’t asking them to do that. So, I think it goes back to your question of is it the responsibility of the staff or leadership. I think we just have to have these conversations. I think that’s the actual starting point, is if you are a leader, yes, it is your responsibility. If you’re a staff member, yes, it’s your responsibility. And we all just should take ownership of that.

John: Right. Yeah. And a lot of times too like organizations that have done work on implementing a better culture— And you know, sometimes a younger staff person has a great idea that leadership is like “I never even thought of that.” Yeah, do it, you know. But if you never say anything, then no one’s gonna know. And so, bring it up. Why not? And I mean, worse case scenario, they say “No, we’re not doing that.” And then it’s up to you to decide if you’re in the right place.

Ashley: Exactly.

John: Right? But you know, if you don’t say anything, then they’re not gonna know and not everybody thinks the same way that we all do individually. And so, you know, make it a cool place to be. I love that so much. And so, I guess before we wrap this up, do you have any words of encouragement to someone that maybe has an “and” or that they feel like has nothing to do with my job, so no one’s gonna care?

Ashley: I think that you’re right. You just have to have a little courage and you don’t have to tell everyone right away and just do this big reveal of this is my “and.” You can start it off as like a slow reveal with someone that you feel like you’ve build trust and rapport with, and things naturally spread too. I think that your book really captures that in a lot of ways of how you said “Oh, I’ll find out has someone heard about my career even though I’ve never personally interacted with them as a comedian, but like word got around.” And so, if you find the people that you really trust that feel like a safe person to share your “and” with, do it and just continue pursuing your passions.

John: I love that. So many good nuggets in here. So many good nuggets. But I feel like I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning of the episode. So, I feel like it’s only fair that we turn the table and make this the first episode of the Ashley Dodge podcast, and I’m your guest. So, whatever questions you have for me, I’m on the hot seat.

Ashley: Ooh, I love it. Thank you so much for letting me pepper you with questions now. The #1 thing I’ve been really thinking of is the passing of Louis. He was a comedian that I remember his cartoon when I was a kid.

John: Oh, yeah.

Ashley: And so, when I was reading in your book, you said that you had opened for him and he took a chance on you. And so, I would love to hear a little bit more of that story because I think when people pass, it’s important to honor the ways that they’ve transformed your life and opened doors for you.

John: Yeah. Louie Anderson, so funny. I mean, legendary comedian. The Life with Louie cartoon of course. He hosted The Family Feud, all this. And then I had a friend who was working with him a little bit and like helping run some things behind the scenes. And so, when I lived in Indianapolis, he was doing a casino in Southern Indiana. And so, he was like “Yeah, John, come open for me and whatever.” And so, he went down and did like 15 minutes at the top. And he was like “Hey, that was good.”

I mean, I was so new. I was so new like I should not have, but then like I don’t know. 9 months later, he was gonna do two huge shows in Atlantic City at the Borgata, which is like a thousand-seat theater. I mean, it’s huge. And so, he’s like “Come out and open for me.” There was like private school in Connecticut that we did on a Thursday night for like a charity kind of thing and that was like crazy high dollar things and then we drove from there in the night with my buddy to Atlantic City. And that was one of the funniest things I’ve ever been a part of. Like we laughed for 3 hours nonstop. Just straight laughter. And then at like 1 a.m., we pull into like an oasis on the turnpike. And we go inside to like Burger King. We order. And Louis is like “I’m gonna go to the bathroom.” And then like the guy puts our food together and he’s like “Oh, I charged you for a large fries and I just give you a small fries. Let me get in the register and get you your money back.” “I think we’re good. I think we’re good like Louis doesn’t need an extra $1.50. Just you guys keep it. Like knock yourselves out.”

So then, we get to Atlantic City. My parents flew in and Louis was like make sure they got like VIP treatment and like a suite at the Borgata and stuff. And yeah, he was just so generous and so kind. And like his goal for his comedy was to only talk 50% of the time. The other 50% of the time, he wanted to be acting something out or the audience laughing, which is really, really hard to do. I mean, normally, it’s 90% talking. And he was just so good at that and just so generous and like he was really big on like no negative self-talk. So, if you said anything that was even remotely cutting on yourself or whatever, he would be like “Stop. You can’t do… Say the opposite. Like you have to say the opposite now.” But yeah, so generous, and so kind, and absolutely hilarious. I mean, just such a funny guy. So yeah, it was just cool to have those opportunities when I was so new. I mean, I was so new in my comedy career just to be able to do that. And he would meet everyone and just say hi to everyone. Yeah, he was just super cool. Yeah. It’s just neat to give other people those opportunities as well because we’re all kind of in our own journey here.

Ashley: Oh, that is such a great answer. One more question I have for you though is when you experience that, did you commit that into your head of like this is how I will open doors for other people because you continue to do that countless ways with having a podcast and giving people an opportunity to share their “ands”, but it seems like it’s informed kind of how you do business too?

John: You know, I’m not consciously— I don’t think, but probably subconsciously, yeah. You know, it’s just looking at the people that gave me opportunities and it’s like “Well, you know, why not?” You know, we’re all doing our own thing in our own lane and making it happen and why not help each other out? The world is so big and we’re all doing our own thing. This is not a competition at all. And you know, we can all be successful. So, probably subconsciously that definitely creeped in clearly. So, yeah, I appreciate you saying that though.

Ashley: Thank you so much.

John: Awesome. Well, this has been so much fun, Ashley. And I just appreciate you being a part of What’s Your “And”?

Ashley: Thank you. I appreciate it as well.

John: If everybody wants to see some pictures of Hans and Ashley or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything is there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 479 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. Both versions go into more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and now listening to it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the workplace cultures where they are because of it.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Mike Maksymiw. He’s the executive director of the firm foundation at Aprio. And now, he’s with me here today. Mike, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Mike: Oh, you’re welcome, John. Very glad to be here.

John: This is gonna be so much fun. I can’t wait, but I have 17 rapid-fire questions. Get to know Mike Maks a little bit better here right out of the gate.

Mike: All right. Go.

John: All right. Here we go. This is the easy one maybe. Favorite color.

Mike: Blue.

John: Blue. Solid. Mine too. There you go. We’re already 1 for 1. All right. How about a least favorite color?

Mike: Yellow.

John: Yellow. Ooh, that’s a good pick. Yellow. Too bright.

Mike: John, I’m blonde and pale. So, I just blend in.

John: Right. There you go. There you go. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Mike: I got to go with a dubious local brewery here.

John: Nice. Very cool. In Connecticut, yeah?

Mike: Yeah.

John: Yeah. Very cool. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Mike: Tom Hanks. He’s good in everything.

John: Yeah, he is. He really is good in everything. Are you more suit and tie or jeans and a T-shirt?

Mike: Oh, definitely jeans and a T-shirt. What I wear doesn’t make me any smarter or dumber.

John: Right. There you go. There you go. Ooh, this is a good one in the northeast. Rain or snow?

Mike: Definitely snow. Rain is just gross.

John: Yeah. Right? It ruins everything. It really does.

Mike: It’s supposed to be fun.

John: Yeah. Right? I mean, like rain at night and water the plants and all that stuff. And then during the day, we can like be out and about and do our things and not be just drenched. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzles?

Mike: Sudoku out of those three.

John: Okay. All right. Interesting. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Mike: I go with neither really. But if I had to pick, I’d go with Star Wars.

John: Yeah. Especially if people are like neither. They just Star Wars. Yeah. Me too. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Mike: PC.

John: Yeah. I’m the same. Like I don’t even know how Macs work. I’m not sure I’m allowed in the store.

Mike: Like gave you those problems when we’re trying to use software in the accounting world.

John: Oh, yeah. That’s true. That’s very true. They were more like the creatives and stuff. Yeah. Totally. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Mike: e-Book. This way, I have it with me all the time.

John: Ah, there you go. Yeah. Especially with the phones now. How about a favorite number?

Mike: 32.

John: Yeah. Is there a reason?

Mike: Koufax.

Interviewer: Oh. Yeah! Going way back. Sandy Koufax. There you go. Are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Mike: Early bird. I could do either one. But yeah, we wake up early and go to the gym, my wife and I, and then start our day that way.

John: Nice. There you go. Being productive. I’m still sleeping. So, you have the accounting background. I gotta ask balance sheet or income statement?

Mike: Balance sheet. You know when you’re done.

John: All right. ‘Cause it evens out? Right? I love it. That’s awesome. There you go. How about a favorite day of the week?

Mike: Thursday.

John: Okay. That’s not a common one, but yeah.

Mike: You’re almost done. There’s usually something going on, so you can hang out do something social. And Friday is a lighter workday usually.

John: Yeah. It’s kind of just getting that momentum started into the weekend. There you go. All right. Three more. Your first concert.

Mike: It was Elton John with my dad.

John: Wow! That’s a classic, man. That’s awesome.

Mike: Yeah, I was like 7 years old. He started singing The Bitch is Back. And I was like “Dad, is this allowed?”

John: Right. I’m telling— Right. That’s awesome. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Mike: It’s got to be a really good toasted almonds.

John: Oh, wow. Okay. That’s fancy.

Mike: Yeah. I got a lot of ice cream places up here in New England.

Yukon is famous for their dairy bar. So, we get a lot of quality ice cream up here.

John: There you go. Nice, man. Nice. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Mike: Probably my baseball glove. I’ve had it for 25 years. Maybe 30.

John: Wow. Okay. That’s awesome, man. When did you get it?

Mike: I got it for Christmas. I must have been 13 or 14, and my dad was selling with the Tigers at that time. And she brought it down to spring training and Alan Trammell broke it in.

John: Oh, nice. Yeah! That’s not every day you can just say that. Right? That’s cool.

Mike: Can’t say every day that a hall of famer broke in the glove and it still works.

John: That’s super cool. And that leads perfectly right into your hand of baseball. And I mean, I’m guessing you started playing T-ball as a little kid?

Mike: I started when I was 10. I wanted to play earlier, but we played soccer in the fall. I don’t know why we did that instead. I was like “Mom, I wanna play baseball.” She was like “Oh, we’re playing soccer.” And then I was 10 and I would go “We’re playing baseball now.”

John: Right. You used a deeper voice like, oh, he means it?

Mike: It’s that one time that year it didn’t crack.

John: Right. Right. Okay. That was a coach pitch level or what was that like?

Mike: I would say we called it minor league. So, the kids pitched, but there was like some barrier rules like you can only bat 9 guys in an inning. Like you couldn’t go and pass balls because the kids are still learning how to play. I see the kid. I was the kid.

John: Yeah. Yeah. But then you figure out how to play with the rules, right? So, if you were the last batter up, you just kept running. You didn’t care if you got out because no one can duck in.

Mike: Right.

John: That’s awesome. You know what? I would go to way more baseball games if those were the rules like in the major leagues. I’ll be like “Yes! Like this is incredible.”

Mike: Yeah.

John: Way more rundowns.

Mike: Right.

John: Right? Oh, my gosh, if there were pickles every inning, like that would be incredible. Oh, that would be so good, so yeah. So then, you played all through high school and kept playing?

Mike: Yup. Played through high school. I played in college at Bryant in Rhode Island. I played there 4 years. I had one really good year and then find an adult rec league. Played there for, I don’t know, another 10-12 years. Made some really good friends. We’re still friends like 3 to 4 of us. So, that’s probably the best part of it, is when you’re playing at an adult rec league, like no one’s going to the hall of fame because you played well on a Sunday doubleheader. You wanted like who you’re playing with. That would be pretty competitive. And have fun and drink a couple beers in the parking lot afterwards.

John: Right. Or before. Either way. Both. Or during. That’s awesome, man. That’s super cool. I mean, playing in college had to be pretty intense at times.

Mike: Yes. It’s like a full-time job. In the fall, it’s like a part-time job. You know, 20-25 hours of practice on top of all your classes. But in the spring, we had to be done by noon with classes, and we got home at 7, 8, 9 o’clock. It was like having a full-time job with no income.

John: Right. Right.

Mike: No like this stuff back then.

John: Right. No. NIDLs or anything like that. Yeah. That’s exactly it. Yeah. And it’s cool that you’re able to keep it going after graduating college as well. That you didn’t have to hang up the spikes and the glove. And you were able to keep playing.

Mike: Yeah. It was nice to hear that I decided to stop playing ‘cause I got to put the nail in the wall and hang the cleats up on it and not someone telling me “Hey, you’re just not good enough to play at any level anymore. Go away.”

John: Right. Right.

Mike: I was like my daughter has got soccer all weekend and I’m sitting here at my baseball game going I’d rather be watching her on the sidelines like I don’t know how long she’s gonna play. Like I’ve done this for a while. So, I was like “Hey guys, I’m all set now.” And that was it. Like it was a very easy decision at that time. Way easier than I thought it was gonna be.

John: That’s cool, man. Yeah. And then you can come to peace with it. Yeah. When it’s your decision, then that matters. But I mean, baseball is also a thing that you can watch all the time. You can go to games. It never leaves you. You know, it’s always still a part of you.

Mike: Yeah. That’s 100% true and I love watching October baseball on TV. It’s like watching the NHL playoffs too. It’s so intense. Every pitch matters because it could be a homerun or it could be like a wicked slider.

John: Yeah, I know. I mean, like the craziest game I ever went to was the Cardinals were playing in the Astros in an NLCS. So, this was way back in like the early 2000s when the Astros were still in the NL. And yeah, it was extra innings. And Jim Edmonds had a walk-off homerun in the bottom of the 14th or something. And that’s the craziest sporting thing ever because you don’t even know what’s coming, you know. It’s not like a field goal where the clock’s ticking down. You’re either gonna make it or you’ll miss it and the game’s over. This is like you’re just sitting there watching and crack. “Wow! Like what? The game just ended? Holy crap! This is crazy.” You know? And like that’s the beauty of baseball and especially October baseball where you get in the playoffs and, man, everything matters, you know. And you go on a run and who knows what happens.

Mike: Yeah. That’s really why I like it, is there’s no clock. It ends when everybody’s had their fair share and that’s it.

John: Yeah, that’s true. Everyone has had their fair share. Right? So, do you have like a favorite memory from playing?

Mike: There was a game that we played in— I’m not sure why, but the baseball that day looked like a beach ball. And I batted 5 times. I went 3 for 3 with 2 triples, the game winning single, and they walked me twice after I hit 2 triples.

John: Right.

Mike: I’m standing on the on-deck circle in the bottom of the 7th inning, and I look behind me, and I’m like “You’re the third out. And they could walk me and get you to be the third out, but I don’t think they’re that smart. We have a guy on second. And I walk to the plate. I’m like I think they drive the right center field and then we’ll win.” And I got the second pitch. I was like “Oh, that’s the one.” Knocked it right where I wanted to.

John: Nice.

Mike: Walk off it. I was like “All right. That was awesome.” That’s like the one time in my whole career batting where like that happened. You know, that good of a game.

John: Yeah. I mean, I’ve seen some like old videos of like Will Clark from way back where he’s just like “Okay, I’m gonna hit the ball here.” And then he just does, you know. Not during a game, but like during batting practice or whatever. And you’re like “Wow.” To be able to hit the ball exactly where you want it to land and go, like that’s amazing, you know. And to be able to have that kind of day is super cool, man. That’s awesome. And so, do you feel like any other baseball gives you like a skillset that translates to work?

Mike: We get really good at being okay with failure.

John: Right. That’s true. If you’re 3 out of 10, that’s amazing. You’re 300. Like that’s really good.

Mike: Right. So, baseball is built for “All right, you failed. What did you learn? What do you do different next time?” Or sometimes “Man, I hit a rocket.” And the shortstop jumps up in the air and snagged it like “All right, I did everything perfect and still out.” Okay.

John: Right. Right.

Mike: In work, it just gives you the sense of “Hey, let’s try it.” “Well, what if it fails?” “Well, what if it doesn’t? What’s the worst thing that happens? Like we try again.”

John: That’s true. Yeah. I mean, these aren’t life and death situations. I mean, you file a tax return wrong, you can do an extension. You can refile. You know, you can whatever. I mean, these are a lot of things that are bad. I mean, you obviously try your best and do your best work. But you know, at the end of the day especially when it comes to innovation and things like that, give it a go. Like you said, what if it does work? Then awesomeness, you know. Then you’re hitting 2 triples.

Mike: Yup. Or the way that you failed gives you a different approach. Right? That you didn’t think of when you came up with your first idea. So, you try and then this thing on the left field comes in and it’s like “Oh, I missed that one completely. We got to address that one now. But here’s how and it’s gonna fix this other problem we have too.”

John: No, I love it. I love it, man. That’s so cool because, I mean, obviously no one told you when you were at Bryant to play baseball because it will make you a better accountant or business person, you know. Like no one ever told you that as a kid or growing up and yet it clearly does, you know, which is kind of cool.

Mike: Yeah. It’s wicked cool how your hobbies can really impact how well you can do in your profession and not because you studied, or got good grades, or took a particular leadership course. It’s just I’ve been failing at baseball for 30 years, you know. I’m not worried that this work paper is a little bit messed up.

John: That’s awesome, man. That’s such a great thing because then it just sort of takes the weight off your shoulders of saying I’m a baseball player, you know, because I find a lot of people from interviewing hundreds. It’s just that they’re afraid to call themselves something because they’re not a professional, they’re not a world record holder, they’re whatever. And it’s “well, I enjoy playing baseball” if you wanna rephrase it. But either way, even in the major leagues, you’re failing at baseball. So, even when you’re getting paid millions, you’re still failing. I love that frame of mind. That’s so great, man. It’s awesome. So, is baseball something you talk about it at work through your career?

Mike: Yeah. There is usually someone in the office that played baseball too. So, it’s easy to start up a conversation with them and so many people like love watching the game, not every day because it can get a little bit hot.

John: There’s a lot of games. There’s a lot of games.

Mike: Yeah. There’s a lot of games. It’s always on. The whole summer, there’s a game on.

John: Right.

Mike: There’s one day without baseball game. It’s the day after the all-star game. And sitting here in Connecticut, half the state’s is Yankee fans, half the state is Red Sox fans. Do you wanna start a conversation? Just walk up and be like Yankee is Red Sox. Oh, man. Especially a group of people.

John: Yeah. Right. That’s awesome, man. So, do you feel like the conversations with people that did play baseball or that are really into baseball, that those relationships at work are different than other people that you also work around?

Mike: They get deeper faster. So, when you’re trying to create deeper relationships with people at work so that you get who they are as humans, it definitely helps to get deeper faster and then you can parlay that into “All right, so who’s your friends at the office?” And now, “Oh, you introduced me to this person that I don’t know all that well. But because I got to her through you, now like we start at Level 2.” So now, I can get a deeper relationship with her faster.

So, I’m not starting at square one with everybody because you can kind of parlay those relationships around and not use them in like I’m purposely using them, but just that’s how human interactions work. I like to have something in common with you so that when we’re talking, especially getting to know each other, we’re okay. We’re not defensive. We’re being our authentic selves.

John: No, I love that, man. Even if it’s not the same thing, you know, like “Oh, you didn’t play baseball in college. Well, but what lights you up?” You see someone light up as much as you light up talking about baseball, man, that’s awesome. I’ll listen to you all day because you’re excited. Now, I’m excited that you’re excited. Like tell me about ballet. I have no idea anything about it or whatever it is. And so, even if it’s not the same thing, it’s still cool. It’s not junior high school where we made fun of the person that doesn’t do the thing that everyone else does. Now, it’s the opposite. Now, I wanna know about that type of thing.

Mike: Especially when you’re in the office or when we were in the office and overhear someone or you’re in that group of 6-staff people kind of sharing a bigger space and someone walks in, you start talking baseball and it comes up that you played in college, he goes “Oh, yeah, I wrestled in college” or “I played field hockey.” And you’re like “You did field hockey? I ran lines for that game. Didn’t even know how it was played and I learned from all the girls playing. Like they we’re so cool. Like tell me about you playing field hockey.”

John: No, that’s exactly it. And I love how you said you get deeper faster and it’s not talking about the work. That isn’t getting deeper faster. Getting deeper faster is talking about your “and” or your outside of work interests. I love how you said that because we don’t get deeper faster talking about the latest tax code. How do you do this macro in Excel or whatever? Like that’s very surface level type of thing. So, that’s interesting.

Mike: Yeah. What really comes and helps too is when you need to have one of those difficult conversations, you know, when your friend struggled with something or you got to give them some feedback. “Yeah, I like you as a human. And they know I like you as a human. So, I’m gonna start the conversation off with I like you as a human. I gotta give you this feedback though. It’s to make you better.” And you’ve developed that deeper relationship on baseball, or field hockey, or art, or ballet. And they trust you when you say “I want you to get better and this is why I am giving you this.” And they walk away better instead of no relationship and it’s “John, you mangled that macro. You put a comma where there should have been a decimal point and we were off $4 million.” And you’re like “Oh, crud.”

John: It doesn’t even balance. Right? No. You’re exactly right. I mean, when I was at PWC, the second project I was on, the manager only talked to me 3 times and all 3 times were to tell me when I did something wrong. And it was like “Guess who’s never gonna be on any of your projects ever again because I don’t wanna work with you because I’m not this bad? Let’s calm down on this.” But if you have 100 conversations and 97 of them are about I like you as a human, tell me about you as a human, and then three of them are about “hey, you kinda messed this up a little bit”, then cool. Like you said, it’s a friend saying “Hey, you can do better. I know you can type of thing. How can I help you? And I like how you see that. That’s super cool, man.” And I guess how much do you feel like it’s on an organization to create that space where you can talk about your “and” at work or how much is it on the individual to just maybe start a little circle amongst their peers?

Mike: I think it’s got to start with the person because you’ve got to be willing to put yourself out there a bit and start with what’s your “and” when you start those conversation with people that you don’t know all that well. But what the organization could do is allow you, or encourage you, or not slap you on the wrist if you’re walking around and poking around someone else’s cube to say hi for 5 minutes or talk at the water cooler. But you could envision it in your head. You sit in there poking around with your— you know, grabbing a cup of coffee with 2 colleagues. And all of a sudden, a managing partner walks by. What happens? Everybody disperses. It’s like cockroaches and light. But if you were the managing partner, your job there is to stop at the coffee machine whether you drink or not and be like “Hey, you were talking field hockey? My niece plays field hockey at Marist.” And engage them and say you shouldn’t scatter like cockroaches like it’s okay.

John: Now, that’s exactly it. And by leading by example because, I mean, I feel like so many times we’re so permission-based especially in the corporate world that “Well, they didn’t think we could. Yeah. But they also didn’t say we couldn’t.” You’re waiting for them to tell you here’s all the things you’re allowed to do? Like that’s an exhaustive list that will never be complete. So, how about you just look at the things they said not to do and then don’t do those? But that’s a pretty small list really. And I love that how— you know, lead by example, and stop people, and be human, and be authentic. You know, that just makes you a better leader ‘cause now people actually wanna be around you, and wanna follow, and wanna listen to you as opposed to being scared and like it’s the principal in high school or something that walks by.

It’s like “Ugh! Run!” We’re not even doing anything wrong.

Mike: “Authority! No!”

John: Right? Exactly. Exactly, man. I love that. Yeah. And so, is there anything that you’ve seen in your career whether it’s a place that you’ve worked or a client that does something that maybe someone listening to me like “Oh, we could do that”?

Mike: Yeah. You know where it happens? When our office was setup, we had like 4 people in an area, but they have their own sections. But I was talking to one, somebody took out their earbuds and was listening, and they just popped their head around the corner, and they’re like “You’re talking about this—” Driving app maybe it was to track mileage because clients don’t track mileage. An they’re like “I use this one because I’m an Uber driver on the weekend.” I was like “Oh, there’s an app for that? Huh. Let me call my client because they love using their smartphone. Like what’s the name of the app?” And he just write it down. “Go talk to your client.” “Wait, you mean to tell me I had a button on my phone and it will do all this for me and then I’ve got the information I need for the IRS?” “Yeah. The information when the IRS asked me for and I don’t have it, they win every time?” “Yeah.” “Where I’ve got a 20,000-dollar tax deduction with 8 grand on the line every year?” “Yeah.” “Okay, yeah. this is worth 9.99 a year.” “Okay.”

John: Right. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. But because you have that open relationship with people, then you get to that work level sort of a thing and that’s cool, man. Yeah, that people aren’t afraid to just poke their head around the cubicle side or things like that. That’s cool. That’s awesome. Yeah. ‘Cause, I mean, sometimes it’s this weird balance between should it be like really structured and forced or should it just be like “Well, whatever happens happens”? And I feel like there’s a happy middle ground there. They provide a little bit of structure, but let people kinda play in the sandbox sort of a thing.

Mike: Yeah. And as we’ve evolved as a profession to be more output based as we should be because we’re not green bar and paper anymore where your inputs like— You can’t fill out a green bar any faster than I can. So, the time was kind of the equivalent-ish. So, it doesn’t matter how long it took you. Now, we’ve automated so many things. The amount of time I spend on something is almost irrelevant. But if I have 7 things to finish this week and we get all seven done, I don’t care if you spend 50 minutes in the water cooler talking with your friends or 20 minutes talking about whatever TikTok video came out over the weekend. “Did you get all 7 things done on time for the client, and we deliver them all, and they’re happy, and they’re good, and your—” “Yeah.” “All right. Good. We’re golden.”

John: No. I love it, man. That’s exactly it. It’s managing outcomes, which is harder from a leadership perspective, but it’s much better from attracting, retaining, and engage talent perspective from the human side.

Mike: Yeah. I actually think that managing outcomes is easier, but tracking metrics is more difficult. We have way too many input metrics that are easy to track after the fact. Kind of like what most of the accounting is. I look back on history and here’s what it told me. But if you wanna get into this where clients want us to be in looking forward in the profession, managing outcomes is looking forward. All right. We’re going to get 7 things done. How are we going to do that? We can estimate how much time it will take to say is it realistic or what resources we need. Clearly, that’s an input we need to know, but it’s like UPS counting how many miles their truck is driving, how it drives revenue. They don’t. How many packages do they deliver? Yes, mileage tracking matters, and they do it, and they want an efficient route. And there’s probably a statistical correlation to revenue that you could draw. Doesn’t mean that it should be your primary driver.

John: Yeah. I mean, you could drive 100 miles in a tight city and drop off 47 packages or you could drive 100 miles out to the country and drop off 1 package. It’s the same miles. So, the miles isn’t the factor of how hard you worked or how productive, and the bottom line of the day isn’t the miles. Yeah, it’s packages delivered. It’s how we’re gonna do that and then it’s just figuring that out and getting everybody in line and all row in the same direction I guess.

Mike: Right. John, if you talked to me on Wednesday and say I finished all seven of my projects that you gave me this week, I’m gonna reward you with four more to fill up your week. I’m gonna say “All right. Come here. Can you tell me how you did a week’s worth of work in 3 days?” I would like everybody to be able to do that. Like what is your superpower and could you spend tomorrow like writing it down and like preparing a presentation and we’ll talk about it Friday, and we’ll kill the day next week teaching everybody how to do it? And then they’ll get all their work done in the 4 days that are left in the week.

John: No, that’s exactly. Instead of just piling on and really breaking someone, it’s like let’s celebrate that and let’s help everyone be as good and productive as you type of a thing. And I love that mentality, man. That’s awesome. That’s super cool. So, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening who might think “Hey, I’ve got an end, but I don’t think anyone cares because it has nothing to do with my job”?

Mike: I would say that somebody cares. Like even if I walk in I’m a college athlete, right, I’m a baseball player, I was a partner at the last job I had, I’ve got a lot of things that if you just look on a paper might give you a little bit of hesitation if you’re a 22-year-old staff who took ballet and theater on the side while you were getting your accounting degree.

John: Yeah.

Mike: No. I love the theatre. They do stuff I can’t do. Like I can’t sing. I can’t dance. I can’t act. I love watching them do stuff I can’t do. Tell me all about it. I want to learn it. I wanna learn it specifically because I’m a baseball player, because I can’t do those things. Like the fact that it’s the opposite of what I enjoy is why I want to hear about it. So, yes, yeah, we definitely want to hear hobbies, passions, interests. And if I get this weird look on my face because you start talking, I don’t know, Dungeons and Dragons, it’s because I don’t know anything about it. Like I’m a noob. Educate me like I’m a noob.

John: Wait. There’s a dice that has 47 sides to it? Like what? Or whatever that is.

Mike: What’s the name of that shape?

John: Right. Right. Exactly. Can you draw it? Like just bring one in tomorrow. But no, I love it, man, just because you care. I mean, at the end of the day, it’s just caring. Having a genuine interest in the people around you. That’s such easy advice. It’s simple, but not easy I guess is the best way to put it.

Mike: You know what’s cool too? You flip the roles momentarily in that moment. And I’ve given you a super safe space to be the expert, and you don’t quite know it.

John: Now, that’s true. That’s really powerful especially from a leadership perspective where you’re willing to relinquish that and be like “All right, you’re the alpha here. You’re the in-charge, the power, the expert like you said. Run with it.

Mike: 3 years from now when we’re in a pitch meeting with a client and somebody there starts talking about this person’s passion, I could do it again. You need to go talk with John about that because we’ve had conversations. He knows way more than I do. I’m the figurehead. I’m Queen Elizabeth right now. Go talk to John. He knows everything.

John: Right. That’s the quote of the show right there. “I’m Queen Elizabeth right now.” That’s awesome, man. Well, before we wrap this up though, I feel like it’s only fair that since I peppered you with questions at the beginning that we turn the table and make it the first episode of the Mike Maks podcast. So, what do you got for me?

Mike: Favorite place you traveled and why.

John: Okay. Yeah. Well, my wife and I just went to Dubai and then the Maldives. That was pretty awesome. Dubai is very modern, very clean. Everyone speaks English. It’s on all the menus and the signs. It felt very Western as a city and all their skyscrapers are all cool and modern. They’ve all been built in the last 25 years or so, so yeah. So, yeah, Dubai was a really cool city. I would highly recommend it if you’re up for a 14-hour flight.

Mike: We took the 11-hour flight to Hawaii from Boston. And my wife wasn’t having it again.

John: Oh, yeah, that’s a long flight.

Mike: Yeah. All right. What’s an experience or something about you that would be difficult for someone else to believe happened?

John: Oh, wow. Like all of my comedy like from doing comedy full time. Like all of them. I’m trying to think of like one. I mean, there’s so many. But yeah, I mean, the Borgata and Atlantic City like huge, super fancy like resort casino opening for Louie Anderson in front of 1,000 people. That’s pretty crazy. It’s hard to relate to that. I even look back on it and it’s like “was that even me” type of a thing. There’s an amount of anxiety going into it because it’s like this is crazy and then there is the guts that you have just like performing that like in front of 1,000 people, but then it’s also the really cool factor and the appreciating then and being in the moment sort of thing. And Louie was so gracious, and super cool, and absolutely hilarious. And yes, we did a show Friday night and a show Saturday night. And yeah, that was pretty surreal, but so many stories like that where you’re like “Wait, what?” It’s crazy.

Mike: That’s wicked cool. Not many times in a half-hour conversation you hear I worked at PWC and I opened at Atlantic City for Louie Anderson.

John: Right. Right. But I mean, everyone’s got their story that doesn’t have to be mind blowing. It could just be something simple and it’s a cool thing. That’s why I started the podcast. It was because it was like I had someone remember me 12 years after my first PWC office when I was doing comedy and open mics. And then 12 years later, I’m speaking at a conference and he tells the meeting professional “I know John Garrett. That’s the guy who did comedy at night.” And it was a guy I never met. He was in the tax department and I don’t know how taxes work. So, you know, it’s just cool to see how powerful these “ands” are and what you remember about people.

Mike: Yeah. And that’s what the relationships are. Right? You never know when they’re gonna come back.

John: Totally. Yeah. Or what people remember about you or if they remember you at all and that’s the thing. If you don’t share your “and” or this human side to you, then odds are they’re not gonna remember you at all, which is sad because you work way too hard and you’re too good at your job to not be remembered. Like that’s frightening to me.

Mike: Yeah. When you leave a place, you want what you stood for to stay behind with the other people who are still there. Like that’s really the impact and the true legacy. It’s not a name on a front door. It’s not 47 books published or anything. It’s “Hey, when Sally is managing Jimmy and Sally takes the same lesson that you imparted on her and imparts it on Jimmy and now Jimmy has it, it’s like that’s really how you leverage and have an impact.”

John: And it lives forever.

Mike: Yeah.

John: Man, your podcast is so much deeper than mine. This guy is deep in a hurry. That’s awesome, man. Well, no, I appreciate you being a part of What’s Your “And”? And yeah, I just appreciate you taking time to be a part of the show. So, thanks, Mike.

Mike: You’re welcome, John. Glad to be here. Had a great time.

John: Yeah. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Mike outside of work or on the ball field or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything is there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 477 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, and a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and thank you writing such nice reviews on Amazon and Good Reads and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And if you ever wanna be on the show, don’t hesitate to reach out ‘cause I’d love to share your stories as well. But week is no different with my guest, Ale Spray. She’s the business development manager in Mortenson’s Denver office. And now, she’s here with me today. Ale, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Ale: Thank you, John. I’m so excited so I can cross it out of my bucket list. I’m in a podcast of a famous person. So, done. Cross it out.

John: Oh, you’re so kind. Thank you, Ale. No. I’m so excited. We first met virtually. You were part of a book club that I jumped in on who was reading What’s Your “And”? and then I was like I would love to have you on the podcast. And then I asked again and then you’re like “Okay, fine, I’ll do it.”

Ale: I was stars struck. We were in our virtual book club and our friend, Chris, is like I have a special guest, and there you are, and we’re like “Oh, my God!” So, we’re all excited. Like we head over. So, I keep telling that story. So, yeah, thank you. And like I say, now I can cross it off my list. I have been invited in a famous person’s podcast. Ale achieved it.

John: Well, thank you so much. I feel like I’m famous to like 20 people, but it’s all good. It’s all good. You’re about to be famous too. So, that’s awesome. Yeah, it can be done. But I feel like this is a get to know Ale right out of the gate here with my 17 rapid-fire questions. So, this is gonna be so fun. This is a pretty easy one I think. Cats or dogs?

Ale: Dogs.

John: Dogs. Yeah. Me too.

Ale: Definitely dogs. Yeah.

John: Yeah. How about when it comes to puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw?

Ale: Ooh, I’m horrible at both. As a second language in English, sometimes I’m so stuck with those.

John: So, maybe jigsaw puzzle because it’s a picture?

Ale: Yeah. Maybe that will help me because it is a puzzle. Yeah, let’s go with that one. No crossword.

John: That’s funny. How about a favorite color?

Ale: Oh, that will be black. It slims everything. It hides a lot of stuff. Stains, curves, anything. Black.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so awesome. How about a least favorite color?

Ale: I will say purple. I don’t think it’s my color. It’s beautiful. It’s a royal color. It’s the color of royalty, but it doesn’t go with me as much as I want it. It’s like maybe I’m not having any royal blood in myself, but that’s the hand I take.

John: Right. That’s awesome. Okay. That’s an easy one. Favorite adult beverage.

Ale: Oh, adult beverage. I like, of course, margaritas.

John: There we go. All right. That’s an easy one. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Ale: I would say I always love watching Sidney Poitier. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yes. She is amazing when she did that To Sir, with Love. It was one of my favorites. And I think favorite actress I will say Meryl Streep. She’s always funny and she’s a chameleon, so yes.

John: Oh, so good in everything. Yeah. Totally. Totally. How about more of a shower or bath?

Ale: Oh, shower. Bath, I just waste water. I don’t have time. It’s just like I cannot sit back and just do nothing.

John: Right? The whole time, you’re like I’m supposed to be relaxing, but I’m thinking of everything I’m supposed to be doing.

Ale: Nah-uh, I can’t.

John: Okay. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Ale: Oh, Stars Wars. There’s nothing besides Star Wars and the originals. Let’s go with the originals. Episode 4, 5, and 6. That’s it.

John: Yeah. Exactly. No. I haven’t even seen anything beyond that because I even heard good things so I’m like “You know what? I don’t wanna ruin it.”

Ale: Don’t ruin it.

John: Yeah. There you go. How about books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Ale: Real book. There’s something about, I mean, turning the page, going back, highlighting. I still do some library books. Mailing the books is like “Oh, God.” Yeah. Yeah. Real books, yes.

John: Yeah. Exactly. There’s an experience with it that’s more than just the reading. Yeah. Yeah. How about a favorite number?

Ale: 9.

John: 9. Is there a reason?

Ale: I was born in September in the 9th month. I was born in the 27. So, 2 + 7 is 9. So, it’s just I believe 9 is something lucky for me, but just 9.

John: Very good. As long as it’s not a purple 9, we’re good. Right? How about your computer? More of a PC or a Mac?

Ale: Oh, I’m a PC. I have an Apple phone. I think I’m Apple challenged.

John: I love that phrase.

Ale: Yeah. I’m Apple challenged. Yeah.

John: I’m Apple challenged as well. Yeah. Definitely. How about your first concert?

Ale: Oh, my first concert, gosh, that’s a good memory there. I think it was a Spanish singer, Miguel Jose. Maybe. Yeah, back in Mexico. Yes.

John: As a kid?

Ale: I was a teenager. Yeah.

John: Oh, nice.

Ale: Yeah. He’s my favorite singer. He’s from Spain. One day, I wish to go to— He doesn’t come to the United States anymore. I mean, he has never come to United States, but I saw a couple of his concerts when I lived in Mexico. He’s my favorite.

John: Very cool. That’s great. That’s very cool. How about are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Ale: You know, I’m a night owl. I could stay up late, but I can’t get up early. And I don’t drink coffee, so that surprises a lot of people because I don’t drink coffee and I can still be upbeat and get ready to go at 6 in the morning. I wake up. I would go to bed at 1 in the morning. It’s just I can be both.

John: Yeah. Yeah. We can do margaritas in the morning. There’s no time on that.

Ale: There’s no right time for margaritas.

John: Exactly. I don’t drink coffee either. I somehow missed that boat. I don’t know, but yeah I know. All right. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Ale: Vanilla.

John: Oh, vanilla. All right. Just straight old school vanilla.

Ale: Straight old good vanilla. Yes. I’m pretty boring. Lately, one of my favorite flavors is dulce de leche. It’s like a caramel. Haagen-Dazs makes the best one, so yeah. But it’s a hard one to find.

John: That’s a good option. How about a favorite day of the week?

Ale: I will say Saturday because you still have that energy from, you know— It’s not Sunday that you have to prepare mostly. Saturday you can still do a lot of stuff. And I have done a lot of my biking on Saturday, so yes.

John: Oh. Well then, there we go. That’s exactly the best day. There you go. And since you have the engineering background, I’ll ask you buildings or bridges?

Ale: I love bridges. There’s a lot of metaphor with the bridges connecting towns, connecting communities. Even traveling in a bridge that has been that majestic over a river is just— Buildings are amazing. But bridges is, like I say, you can take the metaphor of what it means to have a bridge connecting those communities.

John: Yeah. I know. You’re exactly right. I mean I lived in New York City for a long time. And you know, you had the Brooklyn Bridge especially. I mean, it looks magnificent, but it’s 2 pieces of land that were not supposed to be connected that man came along and said “Nope, we’re connecting them.”

Ale: The Golden Gate is in my bucket list too.

John: Oh, yeah. Golden Gate Bridge is very cool too. Yeah. Fun fact: They never stopped painting it. Like once they get to the end, it’s time to start painting the beginning again. They’re painting it like all the time. Like they never stop painting the Golden Gate Bridge.

Ale: Wow.

John: That’s how big it is. Yeah. That’s crazy. Right?

Ale: Cool. I learn something new now. Okay.

John: Right? So, there we go. The show is over. No. I’m kidding. I think we’re on the last one. The last one is the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Ale: Favorite thing I have, I will say Catalina, my bike.

John: Oh, she’s got a name. Okay.

Ale: She has a name. Yes.

John: Yeah. And what kind of bike is it?

Ale: It’s a touring bike. It’s a road bike. She has been with me even when my firstborn was born. It was interesting because I was pregnant and a friend of mine was selling it. And I went and bought it and I start crying and then my ex-husband tells “What’s wrong?” And I say “I’m a horrible mother. I don’t have a crib, but I have a sick bike.”

John: Right. Well, you got priorities in order. Come on now.

Ale: Oh, yeah. So, yeah. I feel horrible because, you know, everybody buys the crib and everything. And I’m like “Nope, I want this bike.” It’s a red touring bike. It’s a Greg LeMond. I don’t know the year, but it’s a Greg LeMond red bike.

John: Wow. That’s awesome. Even I know what that is. That’s awesome. That’s so cool, which leads right into your hobby or passion outside of work. Your “and” of cycling. And so, how did you get started with cycling?

Ale: Interesting because when I was growing up in Mexico, my mom threw a big 7-year-old party. And it was awesome. But when the party was over, I told her “For the next year, I want a bike.” And it caught my mine on surprise because my older brother and my older sister they never ask for a bike. There was no bikes in our house.

John: Nothing to pass down.

Ale: Nothing like that. So, it’s like “Where is this girl getting the idea of a bike?”

So, the next year, I got a Green Hornet looking bike. Horrible color. Not a girly color, but I didn’t care. It was a bike. And for me, it was freedom. I don’t know what kind of freedom for an 8-year-old. And nobody in my family knew how to ride it. So, I have to learn. And I did it the same way as the Strides, this bike that little kids are riding. Putting my feet down and kind of rolling around. And I taught myself how to ride the bike. You know, I enjoyed that freedom of being in the bike. So, fast forward 2020, I’m gonna make my best intentions and everything, and we get hit with a pandemic. And during the quarantine, I was falling into depression because I was not able to see my friends, my coworkers. I’m a people person. My battery gets recharged when I see people. So, I was falling into depression and I have a personal bad relationship ending. And it was so bad for me. I was just finding ways to hold on.

Catalina was holding in the garage collecting dust for the past 2.5 years. And I didn’t wanna ride her because like if I get a flat tire, I don’t know how to fix it. I always have somebody helping me. So, I was like “How do I do this?” So, one day, it’s like I moved to a different country. I learned a second language. I have this job. I have raised kids. So, I think a flat tire is not gonna stop me. So, I went to a bike shop. I got more tools that I needed for fixing a tire. I mastered my skills thanks to YouTube. And Catalina and I, we started riding. The first day was like a 3-mile because I was out of shape. And at the end of the summer of 2020, I accomplished the mile of 50 miles.

John: Wow! You’re 50 miles in one ride? Oh, my goodness. That would take me like 3 weeks. That’s amazing.

Ale: And it was in a period of 4 months that I started from 3 miles 04 mine is that I started from 3 miles, 5 miles, 10 miles in 1 day. It’s like Catalina and I were gonna go for a long ride. And yet, when computer hit the 50-mile, I start crying. I have talked to that bike more than I should.

John: Right?

Ale: She’s the perfect listener. She never complains. She never talks back.

John: She doesn’t judge you. Really? That’s so good.

Ale: When she’s not happy with me, she makes a flat tire when she’s like “Okay, girl, this is not cool. So, we’re gonna have a flat tire.”

John: Right. That’s so fantastic. I love it. That’s so great. I guess just wanting that freedom and wanting to be outside and to go, and explore, and all that and then to bring it back in your adulthood. And then also too Catalina was, like you said, collecting dust for 2-3 years. How was it different now that you’re riding versus when Catalina was just sitting there on the side?

Ale: I feel like we have to kind of not take things for granted anymore. And the little things that can give us that satisfaction, they have always been there, you know. It’s nothing really like the big house, the big car. It’s just something that compliments you. I mean, she didn’t even have a name. So, I even named her because one day we finished a ride and I say “Okay, girl, you and I, we’re gonna spend a lot of time together. So, I need to name you. So, I need to connect with you.” So, her red color, her little Argentinian background kind of thing that I kinda gave her. And I give her that personality. People know who Catalina is. Some people actually hug Catalina. So, it was more the feeling free, taking time for myself that I deserve to because you cannot keep helping or be part of a team if your bucket is empty. So, that’s how I feel like I recharge myself. I got my ideas. I have the best ideas. I have calmed myself from situations. I have rethink approaches to emails, the conversation, just getting on that bike and thinking.

You know, you’re still minding the traffic and everything, but I have done a lot of thinking, exploration, soul searching when I have been in that bike because it’s just me and my power of pushing for. And life and your work is the same way. You have uphills that you have to prepare mentally. You have those flat, easy, cruising kind of moments. And you have those downhill moments that you have to enjoy because you worry about the traffic of course and breaking up at the moment if you need to, but it’s kinda like that downhill that is the wind taking you. It’s like enjoy because you have to enjoy the good, the bad, and the ugly in order to really experience life and it’s best because that’s what I learned from her, you know. And uphill, you prepare mentally. You’re focusing in one little step at a time or a little portion of the road ahead of you. And then one moment, you realize I’m on top of it. I made it, you know.

John: Yeah. No. I love that so much and that analogy of sometimes the wind is behind your back and sometimes you are going downhill and things are great, you know. And your momentum is with you and sometimes it’s not. Because you’ve ridden 50 miles and you’ve done all these rides, I imagine that translates to work when sometimes at work this is an uphill moment, everybody. And we just gotta buckle down and drop it in the right gear and let’s go.

Ale: And pace yourself because you cannot just completely burn yourself in the first mile because you might have a really steady uphill. It’s like “Okay. How am I gonna pace myself for my team not to feel burnout, for me not to feel burnout?” So, it helps you to also plan, prepare mentally, and the energy that you have, the food you have because you have your bars, you have your water. So, it’s like it paces you in a different way. Yes.

John: I love that so much. That’s so good. And so, you said that people know Catalina’s name. So, is this something that comes up at work?

Ale: Oh, yeah. Because we have people here with bikes. So, when I brought her on the first group ride, it’s like “This is Catalina.” So, I introduced her. So, people know she is part of me. Ale the biker and Ale, Catalina come together. We’re a Twinkie package.

John: That’s so good. So, does Mortenson do group rides?

Ale: Yes. We do group rides. We have the MSA Colorado. The first year that they didn’t have it because of COVID, we created our own route. We visit job sites. We took our pictures. We came back.

John: Oh, nice.

Ale: And casually, when it’s a nice weather, people say “Hey, we’re gonna go down the Cherry Creek path. So, we go, a couple of us. So, it brings us in a different conversation and a different bonding. It’s like “Hey, for Christmas, I give myself a Peloton. So, I call it Catalina version 2.” So, I have a conversation for her not to be jealous. It’s like “In the wintertime, I cannot ride you. So, I’m doing the Peloton.” Yeah. Some people think I’m crazy because I really talk to that bike like I talk to one of my kids.

John: Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, why not? It’s processing yourself. It’s crazier to talk to yourself, I think, than talk to a bike. So, why not? And Catalina’s listening and she’s helping and that’s all that matters. But I think it’s so cool that the company has group rides and it’s a construction company. So, you go to sites and you take pictures. So, it’s kind of weaving that “and” with the work, which is super cool. So, those relationships with the people that cycle I would imagine are a little bit different than just everyone else that you work with.

Ale: Oh, yeah. Definitely. When you talk with somebody who is a biker, sometimes you are “Hey, do you ride this weekend?” “Yeah.” “How long?” And sometimes even during the weekend we’re texting each other. “Hey, I did a 20-mile ride today. It was awful, you know, the wind.” At least 3 or 4 people that I have this exchange is a different level conversation. It’s a different kind of bonding because you stayed experience the same thing. You pace yourself. And at the beginning of the season, of course, it’s kind of hard because you have been not moving your legs much, but we encourage each other. We kind of plan what ride are we doing next time. “And hey, who’s coming on Friday? No worries if you can’t. Maye you can join us.” So, yes, it’s non-stress. It’s a different relationship, different conversation.

John: Yeah. I love that so much. It’s so awesome. So awesome. I guess how much is it on an organization to create that culture that people can share their “and” or even create those groups and how much is it on the individual to maybe just start that little circle on them on their own?

Ale: I think you have to have that safe environment. We talk about this whole diversity inclusion equity portion of it that people, companies, organization are pushing more because it’s part of creating a winning team. You cannot come and say “Hey, I’m this professional. But when I’m off work, I’m a biker.” No. Those years are over. I’m a true self. I want you to get to know me. I want you to include me because I’m Ale. I’m a biker. I’m an engineer. I’m a team player. So, it’s all together. But when you have an organization that promotes a company that has a bike rack by the bathrooms, they have lockers and showers that can tell you you are welcome to do this, it’s not so hard. And even for small businesses because I work with small business, if you wanna create this culture, you just have to say “Hey guys, we’re gonna do this on the weekend” or “We’re gonna do this after work.” It’s just intention of really creating that space for your employees or your team to say let’s bond in a different level.

John: And you brought up the diversity equity, and inclusion, and accessibility like the DEIA world. How have you seen What’s Your “And”? impact that? You know, it’s just when you think of people that— We all have our bias. You just think this person from this culture maybe they’re not as outdoorsy or this culture they are totally outdoorsy. So, when people understand that “no, yes, we have bikes back in Mexico, we used to ride a lot”—

I make that joke that a lot of people are kind of like “Oh, okay.” It just has to be healthy because, again, I enjoy talking. You know how I talk about Catalina, how I enjoy being outside. So, this is me beyond my skin tone, beyond my accent, beyond everything. This is me. I have so much in common with you that you grew up in Michigan, you grew up in Wyoming, or you grew up in Wisconsin that we both came together. We might not agree in a couple things even in a professional setting, but when we can get together, it’s the same 13 miles flat or uphill for both of us. So, we both are gonna be chasing that hill the same way. Different gears, different strength, but it’s the same hill for both of us.

John: Now, I love that and I love how it brings you together with someone, like you said, people from different countries, different states, different backgrounds, and different nationalities and yet there’s that common anchor point of cycling or outdoor activities that you can bond with them over, which is fantastic.

Ale: And we encourage each other because, like I said, when you start biking again after a long winter, it’s like “Uh, I’m just gonna go 5 miles. No, it’s nothing.” And it’s like “Hey, you got on the bike. That’s perfect. And when we have done a ride as a team, we stay together. Three go a little farther ahead. We stay as team and we share. We take pictures. We kind of grind it like “Oh, my God, that hill.” So, it’s just that bonding and that camaraderie (I think that’s how you say) that just brings you together and encourage you. We push each other to the best of us.

John: Yeah. And everyone gets better. Everyone’s better in work and in cycling. Yeah. Everybody wins. That’s so awesome. That’s so awesome.

Ale: And I have to say something more. Our CEO— we have our headquarters in Minneapolis— he came and visit. And he wanted to tour some job sites in a bike. So, they say “Hey, Ale, you have helped marketing with taking pictures. You have a bike. So, can you go with the group and take pictures?” And our CEO or the owner of the company, he recognizes me as “Oh, Ale, she likes to bike.” So, for somebody that oversees 5,000 employees that can relate to me like “Ale, she took pictures when we were biking and she—” So, it helped me and support me to stand out in a different way too.

John: That’s so great because it’s not Ale, the business development person. It’s Ale, the cyclist and likes to bike. And he knew you and that’s so cool. I mean that had to feel just super rewarding because it’s like “Wow! That’s awesome.” It’s the opposite of when you’re a kid and the principal calls you and that’s cool, you know.

Ale: Yeah. You’re riding a bike in the school ground. That’s not a good thing. So, yeah, I got an email from him saying thank you so much for joining us in our ride and thank you for taking pictures because I also the pictures. He was with his brother saying they haven’t been together in a while biking together. So, like we’re gonna send this to our mother. So, there was a lot of things that happened with that bike.

John: That’s so cool to hear. That’s awesome. And have you not shared your “and” or have you not— You know, had people at work not known that, then none of that would have happened. So cool. I guess before we wrap this up though, it’s only fair that I turn the tables since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, that we make this the first episode of the Ale Spray podcast. And thanks for having me on as a guest and you could ask me whatever you want.

Ale: Okay. So, John, thank you for being in the podcast. Thank you for writing that book and for bringing— to help us realize that our “and” is what bonds us together as humans. So, I have a couple 5 questions for you. First one, tacos or pasta?

John: That’s a tough one. You know, I’ll go tacos I think. I’ll go tacos.

Ale: Perfect. Next, Monopoly or Battleship?

John: Ooh. You know, Monopoly, there’s a lot of negotiating and all these other side deals happening. Yeah. Yeah. There’s a game within the game. Yeah. Correct.

Ale: I was also gonna put Monopoly. Okay. Popcorn or candy at the movies?

John: Yeah. Candy.

Ale: Candy. Okay.

John: Not just at the movies. Any time. I mean, popcorn is always good, but candy is gonna— Sometimes you put the M&Ms in the popcorn though if you wanna get fancy. Then get some plain M&Ms.

Ale: I cannot take that.

John: Right. Right.

Ale: Okay. So, you say you are a green or a yellow crayon?

John: Ooh, I’m gonna go green I think. I’m gonna go green on that one. Yeah.

Ale: Okay. So, my last question, if an actor could play you in a movie, say the John Garrett movie, what actor will be playing you?

John: Oh, man. I don’t even know. I mean, I guess there’s a guy that’s sort of my doppelganger, Tom Cavanagh.

He’s Canadian. I think there’s some superhero show that he’s doing now I think or something. I mean, he seems like a cool guy and nice. And he kinda looks like me unfortunately for him.

Ale: Now, but not looking like you. You have to say—

John: Any actor. Oh, yeah. I’d probably say Jim Carey just because he’s so funny and so like animated. You never know what he’s gonna do next. And as an actor, I mean, yeah, just absolutely hilarious, so yeah.

Ale: Okay. Well, I have one more if you are ready for one more. Okay. If you can define your life as a cover of a record, which one will you be?

John: My life as like a record?

Ale: Cover of a record.

John: I’m trying to think of what record albums, I mean, since we don’t even see record albums anymore. Yeah, that’s a tough one. Only iconic albums are coming to my mind, but like Nirvana, but I’m not a naked baby swimming in a pool. You know, Pink Floyd with like the prism. Yeah. Maybe that one I guess. Probably Pink Floyd with the prism where like a beam of light comes in, but then it hits the prism and then it just refracts all the colors out of it. So, I think that would probably be it actually because people think that you’re sort of this bland, one color light, but then all of a sudden a prism hits it and then there’s this magic that’s inside that light that you unlock there.

Ale: I guess when you put your “and” glasses, you could see really all the colors that people—

John: Yeah. There you go. I love it. The “and” glasses. That’s it. And then all of a sudden, you just see all these other dimensions to me and to others. So, yeah, I think it would be that one. Yeah. So, that’s a really good question. I mean, my brain hurts right now. That was good. That was awesome. No, but I really appreciate you being a part of this, Ale. Thanks so much for being on What’s Your “And”?

Ale: Thank you so much for your invitation, and the good time, and the reflection. So, hopefully, it will help somebody see things a little different.

John: Absolutely. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Ale and Catalina or connect with Ale on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 475 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, those things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And both versions go more in depth into the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Mike Kowis. He’s senior tax counsel with Entergy in The Woodlands, Texas and an adjunct faculty at Lone Star College as well as the author of several books including Texas Off-Road Racing and American Tax Trivia. And now, he’s with me here today. Mike, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Mike: Hey, John, glad to be here.

John: Yeah. This is gonna be awesome, man. You’re a busy, busy dude. So, this is gonna be fun and off-road racing is gonna be really fun to talk about as well, but I have some rapid-fire questions to get to know Mike out of the gate here. Here’s one. Favorite color.

Mike: Purple. Because a lot of my schools that I went to in the past, purple was their official color.

John: Okay. Nice. That’s unique. That’s good. How about a least favorite color?

Mike: Maybe black.

John: Oh, okay. All right. Now, that’s safe. It also has nothing to do with any of the college colors in Texas.

Mike: There you go. There you go.

John: So, that’s a good pick. I was like, well, we’ll see where this goes. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Mike: Oh, gosh. Right now, I like Mexican beers. So, like Dos Equis with lime. It’s probably what I’m drinking the most right now.

John: You are the most interesting man in the world. That’s awesome. How about a favorite movie?

Mike: Oh, gosh. Princess Bride.

John: Oh, nice.

Mike: The classics.

John: Always good. So many great scenes in there.

Mike: Knowledge. Knowledge.

John: Right.

Mike: Billy Crystal

John: And Andre the Giant was there too. Like “Oh, man, it’s so cool.” So cool. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzles?

Mike: Honestly, none of them. I don’t do puzzles now.

John: Okay. Yeah. Well, you do tax. So, that’s similar.

Mike: There you go. That’s kind of a puzzle, right?

John: It’s a puzzle. There you go. All right. I’ll give it to you. How about a favorite comedian?

Mike: Oh, gosh. Robin Williams.

John: Oh, yeah.

Mike: He’s my all-time favorite. I’ve read a biography on him and it was, you know— You know, at the end, what’s coming is— Oh, God, just rips your heart out even though you know the ending. What a story. He’s such a talented soul. And I was a fan of him from the first time I saw him, you know. I rented a movie, a VHS in high school. It was actually rated whatever. Rated R or Rated something. And I checked it out. I’ve been a fan my whole life. He was amazing.

John: Yeah, he really was. He was like just 3 seconds ahead of everyone when he was performing, you know. And it’s like did not see that coming. Absolutely. Would you say you’re more of a suit and tie or jeans and a T-shirt?

Mike: Jeans and a T-shirt.

John: All right. All right. That works. That’s awesome. Yeah. Or a jumper maybe. Or I don’t know what you race in. I’m not sure what that is called, but like it’s—

Mike: Yeah. Race suit. Fireproof race suit. They’re not comfy.

John: Yeah. Okay. Then never mind. Jeans and T-shirt it is. There you go. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Mike: Star Wars for sure.

John: Okay. All right. How about when it comes to books and you’ve written them too, but even reading ‘em, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Mike: Print books. I just love the print books. I can’t get into the e-Book for some reason. It’s not the same. The feel of the pages and I don’t know, it’s just not the same to me.

John: Yeah. Yeah. I hear you on that. How about a favorite number?

Mike: 77. That’s my race number.

John: Oh, okay. There you go ‘cause 7’s popular. So, why not two of ‘em? There you go. 7,777,777. It’s just seven 7s. There you go. Are you more of an early bird or a night owl? Night owl. Okay. There you go. And how about your favorite tax form?

Mike: Oh, good Lord. None of them because I let the CPAs— They do the real work. I always say that I’m just a tax attorney. So, they fill out the forms.

I just tell ‘em where the numbers go, you know.

John: Got it. Okay. Okay. So, none of ‘em. Perfect.

Mike: None of ‘em. Yeah.

John: All right. All right. No, that’s actually the right answer. That’s the only one of my questions that has a wrong answer and that was the right answer as a non-tax guy myself. How about do you have a favorite day of the week?

Mike: Friday.

John: Friday.

Mike: Yeah. Getting ready for the weekend.

John: Yeah. Totally. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Mike: PC. Where I teach at the college, they have Macs and it’s like foreign language trying these things. So, I’ll stick to PC.

John: Pretty much I’m the same, man. I’m the same. I’m like how does this mouse work? It’s got 1 button. It’s not even a button.

Mike: Right.

John: It’s like just you’re supposed to know.

Mike: It’s crazy.

John: Yeah, it’s crazy. We got three more. Your first concert.

Mike: Gosh. They did a concert while I was in high school. I wanna say it was 1986 or `87. It was called Monster Jam. And it had like 6 bands in Dallas. Boston was the headliner and then Tesla and a few other smaller bands. I couldn’t believe my parents let me go, but I went with a bunch of friends. We stayed in a hotel room along the way. We couldn’t afford like more than one room. There was like six of us and I slept in the bathtub and my neck hurt the whole rest of the trip. It was miserable, man, but we had fun. It was a blast.

John: But what a great story that you remember so many years later. Right?

Mike: Exactly.

John: That’s awesome, man. I love it. That is so great. Man, Boston and Tesla. I mean, if only Scorpions were in there, like who knows? That’s super cool. It’s awesome. All right. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Mike: Pistachio almond from Baskin Robbins.

John: Oh, very specific. And that’s fancy.

Mike: That’s good stuff. It’s addictive. Don’t ever try because you’ll eat every day.

John: Right. There you go. You’re the enabler here.

Mike: Yes.

John: Yeah. Right. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Mike: Well, that would be my 2018 Polaris Turbo side by side that I race with. I love that thing. It’s a lot of fun.

John: That’s awesome, man. You’ve had it for 3 years?

Mike: Yes. I got it brand new. My son and I drove out to Oklahoma to pick it up. A little tax tip: If you buy your toys like that out of state, you don’t have to pay sales tax there. You don’t have to pay sales tax here. So, that’s why we drove all the way to Oklahoma to buy a new machine so you don’t have to pay sales tax.

John: That is impressive. There you go. Nice. We already learned something like 7 minutes in. That’s awesome. Very cool. I might start off-road racing just to use that loophole like simply because.

Mike: Just to save with sales tax. That’s smart.

John: Right.

Mike: Very smart.

John: Just to stick it to the man. That’s awesome. Right? So, yeah. So, that dovetails perfectly into off-road racing. And how did you get started with that?

Mike: So, when I was a teenager, I saved up my money and I decided to buy a Honda 3-wheeler. It was 1984, so I was like 14 years old. And I lived off in the country kind of like Dayton, Texas, which is halfway between Houston and Beaumont. And I was out in the woods. And the Trinity River runs close to our house like a couple miles away. So, I bought the little 3-wheeler and I called it Big Red. It was a 200-cc 3-wheeler. They don’t make them anymore because they’re banned. They’re supposedly too dangerous because there’s only 3 wheels and they’re very tipsy.

John: Yeah. They tip over.

Mike: Exactly. But it was a blast and I would ride it every day. You know, it was my first sense of freedom. I was like Huckleberry Finn, you know, exploring the woods and the wilderness. And it was a lot of fun. I just had so many good memories of the thing.

John: Yeah. I know. I mean, I rode 4 wheelers. They weren’t mine, but I always had friends that had them. And yeah, that was always so much fun because you’re right. It’s freedom and you’re driving. And you know, you’re just out in the woods in 4-wheelers, 3-wheelers.

Mike: Yeah. Playing the mileage. And you go hunting. I mean, it’s endless possibilities. The girls always wanna ride on the back. So, it was a great way to meet girls. I mean, it was the perfect vehicle for me when I was 14, you know.

John: Yeah. Totally, man. I love it. I love it. And then did you just keep riding or the toy just got bigger over time?

Mike: Yeah. So, what happened was they actually had like ATV rodeos in the little town next door like in Liberty, Texas. And so, I started competing in those. And they were like timed events like in the rodeo arena, so like barrel races and other obstacle courses. And I won a few of those.

John: So, you gotta like drive around. So, it’s a timed thing. Okay.

Mike: Right. So, I ended up winning some of those, which was a blast, but it was my first time to compete on anything other than just normal sports. And so, that was a blast. And I sort of like got hooked. But at some point, I turned 16 and I realized I really need wheels, right, because I got to have a date on Saturday night. So, I sold my 3-wheeler very begrudgingly and ended up buying like an old beaten car, my first car, like a 1976 Ford Granada. A 4-door piece of junk, you know. More Bondo than actual metal.

John: Right.

Mike: Anyway. Basically, I gave it up at that point. And then after I got married and got a job, and a truck, and all that like 2001, I decided to be fun just for old time’s sake to buy a 4-wheeler.

So, I bought a Hondo 250 little 4-wheeler and rode it around the back of the woods in my neighborhood. I live in the woodlands area. And so, I bring my daughter at the time and put her on my lap. And we just plod around the yard, that sort of thing. And then I discovered cross country racing a few years later like in 2004. That’s when I really got into this racing thing. The event is known as Grand National Cross Country or GNCC. And they’re a national chain, but most of the races are on the East Coast. And it’s mostly like 4-wheelers and dirt bikes. And they did expand it to side by sides a few years ago, but they have since stopped I think for insurance reasons or whatever. So, that was my first gig. I rode out the 4-wheeler. I had no idea what the heck I was doing. And I went to Gilmer, Texas, which was like 5 hours away and it’s like Northeast Texas. And it was so exciting. I had no idea what to expect. I didn’t realize it was like a national event that draws hundreds and hundreds of people and media.

John: Right.

Mike: And there’s all these national racers.

John: It’s awesome.

Mike: It was the real deal. Yeah. And so, I’ve been following all these racers on off-road magazines and stuff.

John: Oh, yeah.

Mike: You know? Mike Penley was there, Scott Kilby, and all these names I have followed. And I got to meet them. And I was just like “Oh, my God.” I’m star struck and I can’t believe it. So, it’s really exciting.

John: And you’re one of them.

Mike: I’m one of them. I’m one of those guys. Right? So, I met ‘em and I’ll never forget it. Like Scott Kilby and I were in like ‘cause you had to get a— They called it tech inspection when you go through and they check your machine, make sure it has all the safety equipment, kill switch, and all those things. And I just looked behind me and I’m like “Oh, my God, I think that’s Scott Kilby.” And so, I said hi. I couldn’t believe I had the guts to even say hi. And I told him it was my first race ever. And he looked me. He gave me a little advice and it stuck with me all these years. He said your goal should not be to win. All you wanna do is 2 things. You wanna finish the race and try to have fun in the process.

And that was brilliant advice because it took the pressure right off. I really enjoyed the rest of the day because those events were like 2 hours long. It was an 11-mile course, up and down, really treacherous trails. And this is at a park that’s open year round. It’s in Gilmer, Texas. It is called Barnwell Mountain. And I’ve been there before since. And some of the trails are literally marked jeep only because they’re too dangerous for 4-wheelers or dirt bikes. We were racing up and down. We were just going up and down. We were racing those trails full speed, you know. It was just like “What am I doing?” Well, I’m stupid. Right? But it was so much fun. Yeah. It was really something.

John: That’s great, man. And what great advice not only for that, but like work and life? You know, you’re not out here to win. You’re out here to have fun along the way. I mean, what great advice.

Mike: Right. Just make it to the end.

John: Yeah. And survive. Yeah. I mean, in racing, there’s definitely a winner. But even then, you finished. I mean, to me, that’s winning. I mean, you know, like the definition of winning and the definition of success isn’t necessarily becoming a partner, or a CEO, or CFO, or whatever it is. It’s just being the best version of you, you know. And I love that advice, man. That’s so great. So, side by side is how would you describe it to people listening. And also, the pictures are on whatsyourand.com in case people wanna go check them out. They’re super cool.

Mike: Thanks. Yeah. So, side by side is kind of like a 4-wheeler, but it’s a 2-seater. And they’re side by side, hence the name. It is kind of like a golf cart on steroids. That’s what I tell people.

John: Right. There you go.

Mike: Yeah. And so, it’s got taller suspension and bigger tires than a 4-wheeler, so it soaks up the bumps a little better. So, that’s kind of a good thing, but it is wider and heavier. So, it’s not quite as nimble and quick as a 4-wheeler, but there’s pros and cons with everything, but it has more safety features because you have like a 4-point or 5-point safety harness. You have to wear not just a regular seatbelt in the car. And we used to have window nets to keep it from falling out ‘cause you don’t have glass for obvious reasons. We have a fire extinguisher. You have to wear a fireproof suit from head to toe, which is very uncomfortable and hot. And this doesn’t breathe at all as you can imagine.

John: Especially in Texas.

Mike: Yeah. 95-degree temperature. Oh, yeah, it’s miserable in the summer. It does keep you warm in the winter though a little bit. So, that’s kind of plus.

John: Right. And it’s got the roll cage inside.

Mike: Exactly.

John: Yeah. No. I think it’s cool, man. And so, do you do a lot of the maintenance on it as well?

Mike: I do all of it because I’m too cheap to spend the money to have somebody else do it. So, I learned a long time ago I can’t afford to be in this sport if I don’t do all the work myself. And that started in the early days of us doing 4-wheelers and racing those. I had to like literally rebuild engines and the whole thing. I kind of enjoy that kind of hands-on mechanical work, getting dirty in the garage and really getting into that.

And it’s fun because you understand the machine better and you know its limitations. And you understand what will break something better if you— You know, it’s kind of like doing a tax return and giving tax planning advice. If you know where those numbers end up and how to it affects the bottom line, you’ll give better tax advice. So, it’s good to know the ins and outs of the whole thing.

John: That’s amazing that parallel because I’m guessing at no point in your education did any of your professors tell you go off-road race and work on engines because it will make you better at your job, but it straight up does.

Mike: Yeah. It does.

John: That’s cool, man. And it’s also neat to see especially in the pictures. Your son now is also racing. He’s in the other side of the side by side.

Mike: He is. That’s probably the best part of this because there’s so many father-son activities or father-daughter activities that you can do where you’re watching your child perform or compete, and that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with that of course, but there’s something about experiencing the race together. And he’s not just a passenger. He’s actually helping out. And there’s many times where it’s blinding dust, and I’m exhausted, and it’s an hour long racing, and we’re battling on this course. And it’s basically the way cross country is setup, is they setup a 3- to 5-mile track and then you do as many laps as you can in 1 hour. And whoever does the most laps the least amount of time wins.

And so, it’s an endurance race. It really is. And it will beat you up pretty good because these are not smooth highway trails. Right? There’s cactus, and there’s sharp rocks, and there’s drop-offs in the creeks. Sometimes it’s muddy and you can’t see because you’re coated with mud head to toe. And you have goggles with these tear-offs, you know, and then you run out of tear-offs and then you take your goggles off. It’s very intense. It’s very intense. And then if it’s hot and dusty, you’re breathing dust. You’re gagging on it because the back of your throat is all caked up with dust. And you can’t see anything. And so, you’re depending on your co-pilot to tell you “Oh, yeah, you gotta turn left, to your left, the left.”

John: So, he’s got the map and he’s like following where you are.

Mike: It’s not even a map.

John: Or in his head.

Mike: It’s in his head. Yeah. He remembers and I don’t because I’m exhausted or whatever. Or he’s looking up the trail further than me ‘cause I’m just trying to squeeze between trees. A lot of this racing his dodging trees. He has luxury of looking 20 feet up the trail. I’m just trying to make it between these 2 trees right in front of my wheels.

John: It’s sounds absolutely crazy, and intense, and nuts. And I wanna do it so badly. You’re like describing mud and breathing in dirt. Just your spine getting all jacked up from all this bouncing around and who knows what. And I’m like “You know what? Yeah. Let’s do that, you know, like type of thing.” And that sounds so fun, man.

Mike: It’s an adrenaline rush. That’s the best way to describe it. It’s an adrenaline rush. And just to survive and get to the end of the finish line, that is a true accomplishment because so many times like every race there’s always machines broken down on the side of the trails. It looks like a graveyard at some point. And they break down because either they hit a tree, or they hit another machine, or they broke – a mechanical failure, or they pop the tire. I mean, it happens every race. There’s always people broke down. So, just to make it to finish line is an accomplishment. And everyone is celebrating. They pop a cold beer at the end. It’s a lot of fun.

John: That sounds great, man. That’s super cool. And it’s something that you talked about throughout your career, or something that you bring up with coworkers, or is it kind of just on the side as people hear about it they hear about it?

Mike: It’s kind of on the side. I never really thought my peers would relate to that, you know, the sport. And so, it finally sort of came out, if you will. A few years ago, they were looking for employees in the finance department at my company, Entergy. And when had an annual meeting for all finance— There’s a couple of hundred employees. And they meet in a big ballroom. This is pre-COVID. And so, they asked for people to submit what’s your unusual hobby and they’re gonna pick one or two. And they’re gonna start off the meeting that way. So, I was one of the two people they picked. So, I get up there and I had like 2 minutes to explain this crazy hobby I do.

And everyone was looking at me like “What’s wrong with this guy? He’s got some screws loose or something out there.” I even was teasing my boss. He’s up on the stage with all the important people. Right? And I’m down in the floor and they just asked me to stand. And all these eyes are on me. And I’m trying not to be too nervous and say something too stupid. But for some reason, when I get a little bit nervous, I’ll just like be silly. And so, I started like saying “Oh, I raced with Joe up there. We call him 1-lap Joe because he’s not good for anything more than 1 lap.” So, I was teaching him. I was talking about my other co-workers, you know. “Oh, yeah, we see her at the races all the time.” And then she’s looking at me “What?” She’s never been to a race. So, I was just having a lot of fun with it. Right?

But then afterwards, people would come up to me and say “Oh, you’re the guy that races.” And then they would just be like an icebreaker. So, that was kind of fun.

John: Yeah. I love that they did that. I absolutely love that. You had 2 minutes. Here’s 3 people that work here, what their “and” is basically. And now, everyone can see your personality and how much you light up about— Like if they had asked you to come up and give them a tax update, first of all, no one would pay attention. And second of all, you probably wouldn’t be that excited, but they were like “Hey, come up and—” I mean you’d be excited, but not like off-road racing excited and joking about 1-lap Joe and she’s always— You know, whenever I do a tax return, she’s always there. it’s like no one says that, you know. And so, I love that they did that and I love that you did it too. That’s so cool to hear that months later, years later, people are like “Oh, wait, you’re the off-raid racing guy.” And it’s not a bad thing at all, right?

Mike: Right.

John: That people know who you are.

Mike: It’s a lot of fun. People make assumptions. They think that “Oh, people that do that are rednecks.” I was born in East Texas, but I’m not some country hick that doesn’t know how to add 1 + 1. And there’s a lot of people that are professionals that I work with. CPAs, business owners, attorneys like me. And they’re all super nice. We don’t care what walk of life you come from or what you do for a day job. We’re just there to share a passion. We help each other. People break down. If someone’s injured, we’ll stop our race and just go help. We don’t care. So, it’s all about sportsmanship, and enjoying the sport together, and having fun. And I’ve met the best people at these races. It’s really amazing.

John: That’s so cool to hear. And like just imagine if every one could say the same thing about their office or their department. Just we’re all in it together. And if someone’s down, we stop and we pick them up. You know, we care about each other and we celebrate at the end together. Just imagine if people were like “Man, I met the coolest people at work.” If people could say the same thing, like that would be a dream of mine if we could all say that. And I think that you’re only gonna get there if you share some of this outside of work interests in who you are as a person because— I mean, we’re all good at our job and can talk about the work, but that’s not really who you are, you know. And I’d imagine you’ve had different careers and you’ve gotten promoted through that career. And the technical skills that you use have changed. But that off-road racing side of you, that’s always there. That’s an anchor.

Mike: It is. I’ve learned a lot from the sport. Like just to have confidence and be brave because racing, you know, there’s a lot of times— I broke my right wrist in one of the races. That’s why I went to side by side. So, my wife said no more ATV racing. You know, there’s an old saying, with age comes the cage. So, that’s kind of when we switched over to side by side as you get older. So, that’s kind of why I’m doing what I’m doing. But you know, a bad track at the track, you can be injured or, God forbid, die. You realize it’s kind of a dangerous sport. And that’s why there’s all the safety equipment and so forth, but I just keep that in perspective.

I go into the office. You know, what’s the worst thing that could happen? You know, maybe a big tax deduction is denied or we have a bad audit and then the company loses a tax deduction and spends more money. Nobody dies. You know, we’re all good. So, it’d kind of changed my attitude. So, if we do aggressive planning, as long as it’s based on very good cases, and even if it’s aggressive, I don’t fear as much anymore because I know at the end of the day nobody’s gonna die over this tax planning, you know.

John: Yeah. You’re not getting a broken arm, you know. Otherwise, that’s a bad client. Like we need to let you go.

Mike: Yeah. You gotta stop doing work for the mob. Right? That’s not good.

John: Right? Yeah. There you go. There you go. I love that so much, man. That’s so cool to hear and also how much it’s enriched your career and spilled over into your work, you know. And you didn’t do it for those added benefits, but it’s an accidental byproduct. That’s pretty cool to hear. And that you recognize it as well, you know. And that’s super awesome. And so, do you have any words of encouragement to anybody that’s listening that maybe they off-road race or they have an “and” that has nothing to do with their job or they think no one’s gonna care?

Mike: Yeah. I guess just don’t be afraid to be yourself and open up. I think people will appreciate you better. You’ll be more relatable if they understand your passions and what it is that drives you. Even if your hobby is not the same as other people’s, they understand hobbies and the concept behind that and what passion is. And so, I think they’ll see you as a real human being. You’re not just a one-track pony that only does this tax work or whatever it is your day job is. So, don’t be afraid to open up and share. And you’d be amazed there’s probably people that have a connection.

Oh, my uncle does that or my aunt has one of those or whatever. So, you’d be amazed at the connections you’ll build just by sharing.

John: Yeah. I love that, man. And yeah, ‘cause I mean that emotion and that passion that you have just comes out and you’re a magnet. You know, it’s like people want that. And that’s super awesome. Well, this has been so cool, Mike. I feel like though it’s only fair that since I asked you so many questions at the beginning that we turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Mike Kowis podcast and let you be the host. I’ll be the guest. And you could ask me whatever you want. I’m all yours.

Mike: Okay. Great. So, I have a few rapid fire for you. How about Dave Chapelle or Jerry Seinfeld?

John: Oh, wow. You know, I think I’m gonna be controversial and have to go with Chapelle only because he just tells it how it is. Like there’s that bravery right there. He’s like “Look, this is about to cause a tidal wave, and I’m gonna just stand here and look it down, you know. And it’s because this is what I believe, and this is funny, and a joke is a joke.” And you know, like there’s no ill-will, or intent, or whatever behind it. And it’s a different time. I mean, Jerry in his heyday, I mean, was amazing and just as comedians. You know, of course, the Seinfeld sitcom and the Chapelle show. I’m not including— You know, just as comedians. But I mean, they’re both so prolific. I mean, they write so much. I mean, Chapelle had 3-hour specials in like 2 years. That’s like Carlin level. I mean, that’s like, dude, crazy. Yeah. So, I’ll probably go that, but it’s like 51-49 like close.

Mike: There you go. Yeah. Johnny Carson or David Letterman?

John: Oh, Carson all day. Like that guy was amazing.

Mike: That’s what I thought. It’s a no-brainer.

John: He was amazing. Yeah. And also, off the show, everything I’ve heard from both, Carson was just like— I mean, he was a little bit aloof. He didn’t like big crowds. He preferred small audiences, but just a nice guy. And so, yeah, totally.

Mike: How about Jeff Ross or Don Rickles?

John: Oh, man. So, I’ve met Jeff Ross.

Mike: Oh, that’s cool.

John: Haven’t met Rickles, but I’m gonna have to go Rickles. I mean, it’s just old school classic. I mean, he’s just so good. And maybe because I saw him when he was older, so it was funnier to me that there’s this older guy like ripping up the room. But yeah, he’s a legend.

Mike: He is. Ace Ventura: Pet Detective or Tommy Boy?

John: Ace Ventura: Pet Detective hands down all day every day. Tommy Boy also was so good. But yeah, Ace Ventura because I love that story of where they gave Jim Carey the script and he’s like “This is crap. I’m not doing it.” And then they were like “Well, what—” And he’s like “I’ll do it if you let me be part of the writing.”

Mike: Oh, wow.

John: And then they were like “Okay.” And then that’s what you get.

Mike: Oh, my gosh.

John: So good, man.

Mike: Yeah. He just has a raw talent, you know. Just the emotion in his face, his body movement. He’s just hilarious top to bottom, you know.

John: Yeah. It’s that Robin Williams-ish thing that you can’t teach, you know. He’s just got it. He’s so good.

Mike: How about Die Hard, is it a Christmas movie or not?

John: It’s a Christmas movie easily.

Mike: I think so too, but I think he was interviewed and he said it’s not. He said it’s a Die Hard movie.

John: Well, you can watch it any time.

Mike: Yeah, it’s true. That’s true.

John: You know? But if you need a reason to watch it, it’s a Christmas movie. I mean, it’s like Home Alone. I mean, Home Alone could be an any time movie. But you know, it’s a Christmas setting. It’s no different. I mean, Die Hard takes place the same time, you know, so like there you go. It’s like how’s Home Alone a Christmas movie and Die Hard— That’s the lawyer in me right there, Mike. You see what I did?

Mike: Good analogy. I like that.

John: Right? There you go. Well, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for being a part of this. This was awesome. Thanks, Mike.

Mike: Thank you, John.

John: Yeah. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Mike in his side by side with son and off-roading and links to his book or connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. And while you’re on the page, please click the big green button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out What’s Your “And”?, the book, as well.

Thanks for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 473 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate them when they’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, and a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. Both versions go in more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and listening to it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Kari Hipsak. She’s a senior manager with the firm Services Team at the AICPA. And now, she’s with me here today. Kari, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Kari: Thanks, John. Happy to be here.

John: Now, this is gonna be so much fun, but I do have 17 rapid-fire questions to get to know Kari right out of the gate. So, hope your seatbelt is buckled and keep your arms in the car at all times, I don’t know, whatever that rollercoaster people say. Here we go. I’ll start with maybe an easy one. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Kari: Oh, no. Don’t be mad. Neither.

John: Neither? Okay. Fair enough.

Kari: I’m really not a sci-fi person. If I really, really had to watch one, it would be Star Wars, but I’m probably going to fall asleep within 30 minutes.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so funny. Okay. Your computer, a PC or a Mac?

Kari: PC.

John: PC. Yeah, me too.

Kari: Hands down.

John: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So, on your mouse then, right click or left click?

Kari: Left.

John: Left. She’s making decisions. That’s how you choose. Right?

Kari: Yeah. Exactly.

John: Boom! There it is. How about do you have a favorite day of the week?

Kari: Favorite day of the week, I think it’s typical that everyone likes the weekend. Right? And I think I’m gonna pick Friday because it’s that day where you get to mentally gear up for the weekend.

John: Okay. Okay.

Kari: So, it’s that taste of anticipation.

John: Oh, nice. Okay. I like that. I like that a lot. All right. Since you have the accounting background, balance sheet or income statement?

Kari: Both.

John: Both! Okay! Trial balance. Give it all to me. Just give me all of the numbers.

Kari: I want all the information to make the best decision possible.

John: Get all up in your business. All right.

Kari: I want it all. Want it all.

John: All right. Okay. All right. There you go. Would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

Kari: Naturally early bird. I can be a night owl, but I prefer early.

John: Okay. All right. There you go. How about your first concert?

Kari: First concert, yeah, 98 Degrees—

John: Nice!

Kari: …with Vitamin C as the opener.

John: Wow! There you go. Okay.

Kari: Yeah.

John: That’s so awesome. I do not know Vitamin C, but I do know 98 Degrees.

Kari: Oh, you know Vitamin C. If you heard her songs, you would know. It was those high school songs. As we go on, we remember. You would know it if you heard it.

John: Yeah. Yeah. No. Totally. It just fits in with 98 Degrees. That’s so great. So great. How about your favorite number?

Kari: Favorite number, 13. Everyone thinks it’s unlucky, but I’ve decided to make it lucky. So now, I pick 13.

John: Good for you. Good for you. How about books? More audio version e-Book or real book?

Kari: I like the real book.

John: Yeah. No, I’m the same. I don’t know. You can go back easier and I don’t know. It’s just old school. How about more oceans or mountains?

Kari: More oceans, but I do enjoy the mountains from time to time.

John: Sure. Yeah. No. Fair enough. Fair enough. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw?

Kari: I don’t understand the point of a jigsaw puzzle.

John: The picture is right there.

Kari: Exactly. Why did you cut up a perfectly good picture so I hae to put it back together?

John: Oh, I love that so much. That’s so awesome.

Kari: So, Sudoku and crossword are my top. Sudoku is definitely the top top. I’ll do crossword. I’ll work on jigsaw with my mother because I love her dearly even though I complain about it the entire time.

John: Right. I love that. That’s hilarious. How about a favorite color?

Kari: Green.

John: Green, nice.

Kari: Like a dark forest green.

John: Okay. Okay. How about a least favorite color?

Kari: Orange and yellow.

John: Oh, yeah.

Kari: Just because I’m blonde and it doesn’t work well with me.

John: Right. It doesn’t.

Kari: Nothing against the people that like those colors.

John: No. No. Everything against them.

Kari: Not everything.

John: No. But it is funny how we choose our colors based on what looks good wearing.

Kari: Yeah.

John: Totally. I mean, everyone that’s been on. I mean, that’s been pretty much the reason. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Kari: Coffee.

John: Coffee. Yeah. Okay.

Kari: I’m sure you were going for alcohol, but I need coffee.

John: No. No. Whatever works. Whatever works.

Kari: And I wasn’t allowed to drink it until I was an adult. So, it’s an adult beverage to me.

John: There you go. And it’s every day. The other is probably not every day.

Kari: No.

John: How about three more? A favorite actor or actress?

Kari: Okay. My favorite actor is because of the movie The Greatest Showman—

John: Oh, yeah.

Kari: …and I love Zac Efron in that movie.

John: Okay.

Kari: I didn’t wanna answer it because if I ever get to meet him, I want to play coy and be like “Oh.”

John: He’s a big fan of What’s Your “And”?

Kari: Yeah?

John: So, your cover is blown now.

Kari: Dang it.

John: Your cover is blown.

Kari: All right. I’ll have to come up with a different one. That’s fine.

John: But he was in Scrubs as well, right, and several other shows, but yeah. But from The Greatest Showman. Yeah, there you go.

Kari: That movie just every time I’m on a plane, if that is a choice,—

John: Done.

Kari: …I’ll be there.

John: Yeah, it’s a good movie as well. Two more. Diamonds or pearls?

Kari: Oh, both.

John: Both. Okay. I mean, in case Zac is listening.

Kari: I know. Right?

John: And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Kari: It’s everything and nothing at the same time. I’m very intentional about the things that I bring into my house, in my life. But at the same time, everything is replaceable. I am a little possessive of stuff though, so I don’t want people touching my things. But worst case scenario, if it does break or if someone breaks into my house and steals my things, that’s fine. It’s replaceable.

John: Yeah. Just start with the jigsaw puzzles first if you’re gonna steal something.

Kari: Yeah. Just take those first.

John: Take those first.

Kari: I have a couple for my mom’s sake, but those are not meaningful to me. So, I guess that’s probably the exception.

John: Just leave those on the front porch. There you go. Put it in an Amazon box so they get to take it, but no. That’s awesome and I love that. I mean, it’s a thoughtful answer as well, which is really good and which leads kind of into just mental health advocacy and just emotional intelligence and overall well-being. Like how did you get started with this journey because it’s been quite a journey for you for sure?

Kari: Yeah. I’ll try to keep it somewhat brave. I think it started years and years ago with my younger brother. He’s autistic. And going out in public with him was always an adventure because we never knew how he would act or how people would respond to how he acts. And autism doesn’t have look like some other scenarios do. So, people would think that he was just acting out, or being a brat, or being a jerk, or whatever the case was. They’d pass their judgement. People would make fun of him. People would give us dirty looks. And he’s 3 years younger than me. So, we went through the adolescent phase together, and it was hard honestly to see these people making fun of my brother, and it felt personal at that age, and it was hard to dissociate from that. I did struggle with it a lot. And by the time I was 12, I was in counseling.

John: Oh, wow.

Kari: It was just I reached a point of frustration with the fact that my brother always needed more attention. And I don’t mean to take anything away from my parents. They did a fantastic job trying to balance things, but the reality is he just needed more attention.

John: Right. And when you’re 12, I mean that’s hard to process, you know, from your perspective.

Kari: Exactly. And it was just the small stuff like my school was across the street from the hospital where he had therapy. And in the winter in North Dakota where I grew up, having to walk across the street was devastating. Devastating. I just wanted to be picked up like everybody else. And instead, I had to bundle up and walk a block and a half to get to the hospital. It just wasn’t ideal by any means, but we powered through and I became an overachiever. I mean, now looking back, probably because I felt like I had to compensate for my brother in some deep seated psychological way. Right?

But I became an overachiever. I became a caretaker at an early age because even though my brother to some respects made me a little sad because I didn’t get to have a normal childhood, I had to protect him as well. And for some reason, I got it in my head that I had to take care of him in addition to my parents who were doing a fine job, but became my responsibility. And so, I had a really bad anxiety in high school. My mom took me to the ER during my senior homecoming because I had such bad chest pains that we didn’t know what was wrong. So, my anxiety reached a peak at that point and I did what I had always done. I kind of swept it under the rug.

I went to a couple sessions of therapy and told myself to walk it off. The idea of being depressed or being anxious to the point where I couldn’t control it made me feel like I was broken and I did not want to admit that to anyone.

John: Sure. Yeah. Well, especially at that age. I mean, it’s so hard to be an adolescent anyway, you know. But to feel like there’s something wrong or whatever, you know, like you said broken, which now we realize isn’t the case. But you know, when you’re a teenager, that’s tough. It’s so tough.

Kari: Yeah. It wasn’t preferred by any means. It was just, again, the cards that I was dealt. So, again, I powered through. I went to college and I did the best I could and powered through with my test anxiety and all that jazz. And when I got to my senior year of college, I finally determined that I cannot take the CPA exam and have this bad test anxiety. So, I got put on this medication for anxiety. It took one and I was like I can’t do this. And I only took it honestly as a positive that I told myself I could fight through this without the help of anyone or anything. It wasn’t worth it looking back to tell myself that I was fine, but I did it. I told myself I was fine. I started my first career in accounting. I ended up having a job opportunity to move from South Dakota. That’s where I went to college. To move from South Dakota to New York City.

John: Nice. That’s a change. There you go.

Kari: It was a change. Right? I just jumped in. I don’t even really know how it happened. People are like “Oh, did you always wanna go to New York?” And no. Absolutely not. I don’t even comprehend how that happened.

John: That’s not gonna help the anxiety though I bet because I mean that city is big and busy.

Kari: It is. And I just thought this is a great opportunity to start over and just try something new. I’m a big fan of being adventurous in life. You just never know until you try. Right? So, I did it. I moved out there. I was still living in a hotel. And 36 hours after I landed, my dad passed away unexpectedly.

John: Oh, my goodness gracious.

Kari: So, on top of the big move, I just dropped everything and went back home. I took a month off from starting with the new firm and worked with lawyers to become a legal co-guardian for my brother. And I had to write my will at the age of 25 in a way that would protect my brother. And I helped my mom rewrite her will. It was a lot to take in. And I remember my mom giving me this book about dealing with grief. And I just didn’t want to.

John: Right. Yeah. Well, so fresh right then too. I mean, yeah, it’s such a hard thing to go through. All those things in such a short amount of time. Goodness.

Kari: Yeah. I was in denial the whole time if we’re being honest. I flew home. I helped my mom with what I needed to do. And it was heads down and get back to work. And that’s how I’ve always lived my life. If I just worked hard, I could essentially distract myself from whatever was happening in my life.

John: Oh, okay.

Kari: But when you do that, your body eventually tells you you’re wrong. So, I didn’t know this was possible, but my entire neck ended up seizing up. I couldn’t move my upper body for at least a week. It was done. I was done mentally, physically. I just didn’t deal with anything and that’s what happened. So, that happened. And before my dad passed away, I had worked so much at my first firm and that was just my life. And I became unhealthy. And I started working with a personal trainer to lose weight and get back to a place where I could feel confident. I started powerlifting and I loved the powerlifting. There is nothing more exciting to me than going to the gym and watching people watch me put weights on a bar and know that they’re silently judging me thinking that there’s no way I can lift that.

John: And then you go pound out some reps and it’s like there you go. Yeah. That’s awesome.

Kari: That’s right. This is me. Take it. And I loved it so much and I was able to lose a bunch of weight before my dad passed away. But right before I moved to New York, I couldn’t continue with powerlifting because of an injury. So, I had this outlet for work and then my dad passed away. And I’ve just felt like everything in my life had changed. To use our catch phrase, my “and” had been taken away from me. I couldn’t powerlift. I lost my dad. I just had so many changes going on. I didn’t really know how to function.

John: And sort of your identity now is gone, you know, because it’s who you thought you were as a person. Now, whether it’s work ‘cause you got a new job or you’re kind of transitioning as a daughter, as a powerlifter, like all those things now have been removed, which is really, really hard to go through for sure.

Kari: Yeah, it was a lot.

And I finally started with a firm. I reverted back to my natural tendency, which I alluded to a little bit before, which was just to work and work and work and work and put in so many hours that I was working to live. And that’s how I stayed afloat was every day I got up to go to work. It wasn’t to live my life. It wasn’t to be a better person. It was just to stay afloat and work was how I did that. It’s like when you go into a networking group and you ask someone who they are and they define themselves by their jobs. And that’s not who you are. It’s what you do. So, I reverted back to just working, working, working and that was that. And I couldn’t handle that for long. I ended up finding a new outlet in boxing apparently.

John: Nice. Okay.

Kari: I liked the aggressive activities for some reason. Right?

John: Right. All the people that were judging you at the gym now, it’s like “Get in the ring! Like let’s continue this.”

Kari: That’s right. Let’s go. I got this.

John: Right?

Kari: So, I fell in love with boxing. And I remember at one point my trainer told me I don’t hit like a girl, and I was offended at first and I called him out on it, and he said “Well, I understand that we wanna be equitable, but it’s true. You punch with the weight of a man.” And so, I was like “Okay. This is awesome. I really like this. I’m gonna setup a plan. I’m gonna dedicate my time to being an amateur boxer.” I was finding a gym where I could train to be an amateur boxer. I loved having the powerful punches. I loved hearing the sound of my glove on the bag or the mitts if I was with my trainer. Something about having that back made me feel just like I had my life back again. Right? Like I lost my dad. I lost powerlifting. This was awesome. And then through all this, I ended up going into the doctor for what I thought was just this terrible sinus infection that wouldn’t go away.

And I ended up having a CAT scan, and it turned out that it wasn’t actually a sinus infection. And then in another whirlwind, it turned out I was being referred to a neurologist, and I was diagnosed with a condition called pseudotumor cerebri or intracranial hypertension. What it means is my cerebrospinal fluid pressure is too high. So, it puts pressure on the brain and that’s why I like to refer to it as pseudotumor cerebri the most because I feel like it defines it the best. And what that literally translates to is false brain tumor. So, the pressure on the brain causes tumor-like symptoms. It impacts everything in your head. So, it can cause blindness from putting pressure on the optic nerve. It impairs hearing that. It causes dizziness, headaches, visual disturbances, nausea, vomiting. It’s just not a pretty thing that you—

John: That’s not good for boxing especially.

Kari: No. No.

John: Yeah. So, you have another “and” taken away then.

Kari: Yes. I have another “and” taken away. I can’t do boxing. My neurologist basically told me “You can box if you want to, but I don’t recommend it.” And I’m like “Well, I don’t even know what to do with that. Like I have to pick now between my body and my health or having this outlet.” And just through all of this, I don’t want to ramble on and make this about my personal life too much.

John: No. No. But it’s deep and it’s your journey as to, you know, why— ‘cause some people say emotional intelligence and it’s like no, no, no. For you, it’s deep and it’s rooted. It’s something that you’ve had to walk for your whole life really. And so, you know, it’s helping others to understand that they’re not alone, number 1. And number 2, like their journey isn’t also the only hard journey out there, you know. What I’m hearing is just when your body says take a break, then take a break because the more that you put it aside and the more that you just say I can fight through this, I’m gonna work more, work more, put pride and a badge of honor in the billable hour that I did for a year, then eventually your body’s just gonna shut you down, which is a shame because then the things that do actually light you up then can be taken away as well, which is hard to hear.

What I’m encouraged by in hearing this is you had an “and” and then you were like “Okay, you can’t do that one”, “Well, I’m gonna get a different one” as opposed to “Oh, I can’t do powerlifting. Well then, I guess I’ll just work forever.” So, that’s what’s cool to me, is how you’re still searching for those things because you understand that those outside of work passions matter.

Kari: The thing I learned after my dad passed away, once I finally was willing to explore the feeling of dealing with death, was that one of the number 1 regrets people had on their deathbed is that they worked too much.

And it was such an eye opener that, you know, we’re all here for a purpose. And it feels like our purpose is work because adult life isn’t what I thought it was when I was a kid. Right? I have to pay bills. I have to like keep up with the bills. I accidentally missed a bill. And the next thing I knew, the city was threatening to cut off my water.

John: Right. There’s a laundry. It’s like “Ugh.” It’s like all the things.

Kari: And it never ends.

John: Go for shopping, like cooking. It’s like “Ugh.” Yeah. And it’s every day. Oh, we gotta do it again? Okay, awesome.

Kari: Right.

John: Right.

Kari: But we’re not made to be a strictly workhorses. We have a reason to be here. There are people we can touch and people we can influence. And one of the biggest struggles that I had with my story is every time something happened to me, I told myself it’s not that bad. Someone else has it worse. Yes, my brother was autistic, but he wasn’t in a wheelchair and we didn’t have to modify our entire home. And yes, I lost my dad at the age of 25, but other people lost their dads before that. Or yes, I have these narrow conditions, but it’s not life threatening. And I kept discrediting my own feelings. And I think when you do that and you don’t open up and share your story because you feel like it’s not worthy, you also take away from other people because then they feel like their stories aren’t worthy.

I tried to hide so many experiences I went through whether it was the loss of my dad, whether it was dealing with an anxiety diagnosis, whether it was dealing with these neurological visits and having to juggle the fact that I got escalated to a neurologist and had like 6 doctor appointments in a week. I like hid it all because I didn’t want people to know this about me. And once I opened up and I said “you know what, if we don’t talk to each other about it, we’re all gonna feel like we’re broken”, so I opened up. I did some— I’m gonna loosely call it social media campaigns about pseudo tumor awareness month. I’m terrible at social media. I can never do it consistently, but I opened up about my experiences with that, again, because they’re not well-known. They are considered rare even though I have made contact with a number of people that have been diagnosed with these conditions now.

But I found that in opening up, it gave other people permission to open up as well. And when we do that, we don’t have to live in this fear anymore. And that just does so much for your mind that in my case I had to keep re-evaluating my “and” and it was hard. But now, I’m just in a position where I’ll talk about mental health awareness. I’ll talk about how much it sucks that I hate waking up in the morning and I feel nauseated all the time because of this condition. And I just wanna wake up and feel okay, but it also gives me an opportunity to talk about it and then find a different “and” and that those “ands” honestly, they’re baby “ands.” We’ll call it what it is.

John: They’re “ands.” There’s no size to the “ands.”

Kari: There’s no size to the “ands.”

John: It doesn’t have to be record breaking. It doesn’t have to be something that walked on the moon. That’s the same as making kombucha at home or going on a hike, you know. I mean, there’s no difference. Having an “and”, they’re all the same. They’re all the same, you know. It’s just having that thing that’s outside of work, you know. And I love how you said that, you know. I can even equate talking about mental health awareness in your journey. It’s almost the same. It’s just talking about what lights people up in these other dimensions to who someone is as a person. And I would imagine that it’s good for you like you said, but I imagine that everyone else enjoys it too, you know. Like you said, it gives them permission to also then open up. And you just get closer and you learn about each other. And suddenly, your dimension like it’s a 3D relationship now where most work relationships are pretty superficial, kind of 2-dimensional. But now, all of a sudden, there’s a little bit of depth to it, and there’s richness there, which I love hearing your experience through that. That’s awesome.

Well, I feel like before we wrap this up that I eat rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning. So, I feel like we should turn the tables, make this the Kari Hipsak podcast. And thanks for having me on the show. So, you can ask me whatever you want. I’m all yours.

Kari: That’s right. This is the first episode of the Kari Hipsak podcast. I’ll be interviewing John Garrett. Let’s start with the important questions. What is your favorite comfort food?

John: Ooh, favorite comfort. So, that’s probably gonna be— I mean, ice cream is hard to beat or like brownies with ice cream like a la mode like warm brownie ice cream. Like yeah, that’s gonna be hard to pass up.

You know, some hot fudge like just whipped cream. You know, cherry, why not? You know, like just yeah. That’s gonna be hard to pass that up.

Kari: Why not?

John: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, if we’re going in, we might as well, you know.

Kari: I really like that you’re dedicated to your core food of ice cream and you just add on it for comfort food. Right?

John: Well, I mean, why not? I mean, it’s like we’re already going to triple digits calories, so we might as well go for a comma. Like let’s for a thousand. Like let’s do this.

Kari: For the comma. Perfect.

John: Right?

Kari: Whenever I have an a la mode brownie again, I’ll think of you and say I’m going for the comma.

John: There you go. I mean, look at it positively. Right?

Kari: Have you tried any of the “ands” that have been shared on your show?

John: You know what? That’s a really good question. And this is actually a tangent, but what I would love to have be a TV show because Mike Rowe has Dirty Jobs where he goes and does some dirty job that someone does and then it’s a show, I would love to do a show where it’s me going to somewhere and then somebody likes to ballroom dance. Awesome. I’ll ballroom dance. I don’t know how, but I’ll learn it and let’s do it. And then I talk to you about it. I think it would be an awesome show just to get professionals all over sharing their “ands” and me doing ‘em because I have no shame in doing something ridiculous that I don’t know how to do. And maybe I’ll actually be good at it, but I haven’t picked up any specifically because of, I guess. Yeah, there was someone on who made kombucha. And then unrelated to that, my wife was making kombucha for the first time. So, it was kind of a funny parallel universe I was living where I was like “Well, I can have you talk to her because she’s awesome and knows how to make it for real” type of thing, but I think that TV show would be great. I think people would watch, you know, but I don’t know who to talk to. So, I need to get on that.

Kari: Oh, I don’t either, but I’ll let you know if any connections come to mind.

John: Right, right, right. Exactly. Exactly. So, that’s awesome. You got one more?

Kari: Yeah. You brought TV. So, what’s your favorite reality TV show?

John: Oh, wow. So, favorite reality TV show. For the record, I like loathe reality TV because it killed the sitcom. And as a comedian, like that’s kind of where we’re all going. But I would have to say that Married at First Sight is the only reality show that I watch, and it makes me look like a really amazing husband, so that’s—

Kari: So, it’s your feel good show. That’s what I hear.

John: Totally. I’m like “Look, I’m way better than that.” But I feel like Married at First Sight is such an interesting social experiment, and it makes me laugh, and it’s also just weird to just see how people act. And you’re like “What? Like how is that person doing that?”

Kari: Marriage as a social experiment, that sounds solid.

John: As a whole. But then make it a TV show, why not? Throw two strangers together, meet at the altar, and then we’re gonna film you for the next 8 weeks. It’s like yikes.

Kari: Right.

John: Yeah. For sure. Well, this was so much fun. Thank you so much, Kari, for being a part of What’s Your “And”?

Kari: Thank you, John.

John: Everyone listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Kari outside of work or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 471 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. And the book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and now listening to it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Bill Hershey. He’s the founder, bookkeeper, and business consultant with Life Stream Business Services out of Oregon. And now, he’s with me here today. Bill, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Bill: Right on. Thank you so much, John. Pleasure to be with you.

John: Yeah. This is gonna be super, super fun. But before we get into it, I got my rapid-fire questions, get to know Bill on a new level here. So, bring it. Right?

Bill: Bring it on. That’s right.

John: All right. Seatbelts are buckled. We’re in. Here we go. This is a fun one. How about a least favorite vegetable?

Bill: Ooh, wow. The slimy ones. Probably like— Oh, man. I just say slimy. I don’t even know how to answer that.

John: Yeah, slimy ones.

Bill: I like vegetables.

John: Yeah. Slimy ones. That’s good. I hear you on that like yeah. Because there’s some when they come out- I’m trying to even think of some, but they’re just like “Ugh.” Yeah, the texture is just off.

Bill: Overcooked vegetables would be my least favorite vegetables.

John: Ah, there you go. Okay. I like that. I like to put in the air fryer. That’s where the magic happens. Right? Gets them a little crunchy. Even I’ll do Brussel sprouts then. How about favorite color?

Bill: Ooh, my favorite color is clear.

John: Oh, okay. All right. I have never had that answer. So, that is awesome. And then here we go, least favorite color.

Bill: Ooh, wow.

John: If you say opaque, I’m gonna lose my mind.

Bill: Oh, man. That’s a great answer. I should rip that out. I’ll be like “Oh, yeah, I got that from John Garrett.”

John: You can say opaque. It’s all good. It’s all good.

Bill: Yeah. You know, I really have never thought about what my least favorite color— Oh, neon. Neon is definitely my least favorite.

John: I’m with you on that, man. Yeah, that’s obnoxious. Totally. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzles?

Bill: Ooh, it’s so long. I’m gonna say none of the above.

John: Oh, man, fair enough. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Bill: Ooh. So, there’s this brand of kombucha called June. It’s like the champagne of kombucha. I’m not hired. I’m not advertising for them, but it gets me excited to think about it.

John: That’s awesome. Okay. All right. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Bill: Ooh, I live in a cave, man. I don’t watch movies. I don’t even know what to say anymore. I’ve been like under a rock for the last 15 years.

John: So, you’re like Tom Selleck. And it’s like “Wait a minute, what?”

Bill: Yeah. Really.

John: Michael Winslow from Police Academy. You know, it’s like—

Bill: There you go. And he’s like the guy who did the sounds.

John: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Totally.

Bill: That was great. Okay. Well, let’s go with him because that guy was awesome.

John: There you go. All right. How about chocolate or vanilla?

Bill: Chocolate. Chocolate.

John: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. How about Star Wars or Star Trek? This was pre-cave, so you gotta answer that one.

Bill: You’re right. You got me on that, you know. Star Wars was like always better, but Star Trek somehow has found its way closer to my heart.

John: Yeah. There’s a deepness to it too for sure. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Bill: Mac all the way. I’ve been with PC for too long. It’s like Mac has totally won me over over and above.

John: Wow. Okay. All right. Impressive. How about when you’re in an airplane, window seat or aisle seat?

Bill: Window seat.

John: Window. There you go.

Bill: Yeah. You know, people are walking by either like brushing up at your elbow.

John: Their backpacks hitting your head. It’s like “Yo! Do you know you have that thing on your back?” Oh, God, all the time. All the time. It’s so “aaaah.” Yeah. Yeah. All right. Books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Bill: You know, the audio just makes it so easy. I drive. I listen. I can actually like “read” by having the audiobooks.

John: Okay. All right. There you go.

How about a favorite number?

Bill: 9.

John: 9. Is there a reason?

Bill: Yeah. And that doesn’t mean no. You know, that means no in German, but I mean the #9. My wife speaks Germans, so I gotta be careful to clarify. I’m talking English here.

John: Your clear and opaque answers, you might as well say no. No, no, I’m teasing. It’s all good. How about early bird or night owl?

Bill: Oh, man. I am such a night owl, but I’m trying to convert into an early bird. It’s so hard.

John: Why? Those people are weird. No, I’m kidding. I’m kidding. It’s to each their own, man, but at least you’re one or the other and not both because, man, that would be a lot.

Bill: It is. I’m kind of split. It’s like I’m a split personality there a little bit, but I’m trying to move in the direction of early bird.

John: All right. And since you have the accounting background here, balance sheet or income statement?

Bill: Ooh, I guess income statement even though the balance sheet is where I need to be. Income statement is kind of where I’m at right now.

John: Yeah. Yeah. It was simple. There’s your number. Boom! Do you have a favorite day of the week?

Bill: I like Fridays.

John: Yeah. Okay. All right. There you go.

Bill: Even though I work on the weekend, it’s like Friday is still special.

John: Well, I mean, yeah. I mean, it’s TGIF. Right? I mean, it’s all that. And so, how about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Bill: Ooh, praline pecan.

John: Oh, okay. Nice. That’s a little fancy.

Bill: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man, hits the spot.

John: Yeah. Very good. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Bill: Man, I have this really weird instrument from India called a veena and I almost feel ashamed to say this. My favorite thing that I own because I barely even play it.

John: Yeah, but it’s a cool thing, man. Yeah. I mean, why not, you know?

Bill: Yeah, why not? It’s almost like it’s in a museum or something, you know.

John: Right.

Bill: It may as well be.

John: Right. That’s awesome, man. That’s so cool. Did you get it when you were in India?

Bill: You know, it’s like I’ve been so immersed in sort of India philosophy and India culture for so long.

John: Okay.

Bill: I’ve never been to India.

John: Oh, okay.

Bill: So, it’s surprising to people sometimes that that’s the case.

John: Yeah. Because, I mean, I just figured it was something you picked up while you’re there, but that’s cool that you have it. And when you go, then when people are playing it, you can just jump into the band and be like “I know that one! Here we go.”

Bill: That’s hilarious. That’s hilarious. Though I’m sure they’ll laugh when I start playing that thing.

John: No, no, no. I’m teasing, but that’s great that it’s something that you enjoy playing, and you don’t have to be some maestro at it, you know. Like it’s just something that you’re planning and that’s cool. That’s awesome, man. I love it. That actually dovetails perfectly in with your hand, I think, a little bit of just holistic health in general. And just how did you get started on that path?

Bill: Yeah. Well, that’s a long story. So, I don’t know if I’ll make it necessarily a long story short, but I’ll try not to make it a long story too long.

John: Okay. We’ll go medium. We’re good.

Bill: Yeah. Medium. We’ll find that middle way. Yeah. So, you know, I grew up eating Pop-Tarts, and Twinkies, and a can of soda pop, and bags of chips. That was like my lunch every day going to school. And you know, when I look back, okay, at least it was vegetarian.

John: Right.

Bill: Right?

John: Right.

Bill: I don’t know how I survived to tell the story. I was playing sports. You know, I was doing wrestling and football. And so, interestingly, being an athlete, I was interested in my performance. I was like “Okay, I gotta make sure I’m staying hydrated, drink lots of water and, you know, get protein or whatever.” But gradually, I realized “Oh, you know, maybe these Twinkies, maybe these Pop-Tarts aren’t actually like the best thing for me to eat.” And you know, it was probably like college years that I started to wake up to that. So, I grew up in Buffalo, New York. And nothing against Buffalo, nothing against Upstate New York or the East Coast, but it’s almost as if— It’s like I just had no exposure—

John: Sure.

Bill: …growing up there to so many things that when I went to LA when I was 21 years old, it’s like reality opened its doors to me and I had so many other options. And I think part of this is because I grew up in a very like suburban setting. And so, it’s like very sheltered. I’m sure if I was in the right niches in Buffalo, I would have got to do some cool stuff.

John: But you were in Buffalo like exotic as Canada. So, I mean, let’s be honest.

Bill: Right.

John: Like BeaverTails and like that’s not exotic. I feel like that’s just a funnel cake with some cinnamon on it, you know, but like Nutella, but yeah. So yeah, you go to LA. It’s like “Woah, this is way different than Canada.” So, yeah. So then, that’s when it started to really come together?

Bill: Yeah. Like being in LA, it was like my first experience. I went to a Whole Foods. Part of the reason why I was in LA is because— There’s details in this story. My friend from high school invited me out to join a rock band with him. He had a record deal.

John: Oh.

Okay.

Bill: They got signed to a record deal, the same record company that signed Michael Jackson.

John: Okay.

Bill: So, it was like Epic Records.

John: Yeah.

Bill: It was like “Oh my gosh, this is like a dream I never had that’s now coming true.”

John: Yeah.

Bill: And so, you know, he invited me to come out and play bass guitar. And he was vegetarian and I was a football player at that time. I’m still like, you know,—

John: Eating everything.

Bill: …down my face. Yeah. Exactly. Eating everything at all times of day, that kind of thing. But yeah, he took me to a Whole Foods. He’s vegetarian. And just kind of being around, I just got exposed to a lot of things. He took me to vegetarian restaurants. And after a few months, I was just like “You know what? It’s not such a bad idea.” You know, I have no judgment. I really think that eating food choices is such a personal choice. But you know, I had studied like Buddhism and a little bit of like ancient Hinduism in college that kind of opened my mind to alternative ways of thinking. And it’s just the concept of vegetarianism came into my awareness that that’s the thing that people do. That’s an option.

John: Right. Right.

Bill: And being around other vegetarians made realize, you know, “Okay, maybe I’ll try this.”

John: It’s not just salads, you know. Like there’s other things as well.

Bill: Exactly. Like perfect example, I was at like an Ethiopian restaurant with him in LA and like he bought this beautiful platter of like different kinds of hummuses, and babaganoush, and flat bread. And it looked amazing. And like I was going through them and I saw this like fish with like a fish head and like the head was still on the fish like on the plate. I was like “I want that.” And it came to my table. I’m looking at this fish with its head still on it and then like chewing on the bones. I’m like picking these bones out of my teeth and like I want what they got.

John: That’s awesome.

Bill: I was like “Man, why are they ordering this?” But yeah, you know, it wasn’t just like a cold turkey or cold fish stop right there.

John: I like that. Well-putted. That’s awesome.

Bill: Yeah. So, I mean, eventually, I just started eating that way and I realized whenever I went back and like had some turkey sandwich or whenever I’d be vegetarian for a couple months and then be like “You know, I think maybe I need to eat some meat” and I’d have like salmon or something, maybe even fish, even some white meat, and just every time I did, when I listened to my body, I was like “You know, I don’t think I need that anymore.” And I’m actually kind of like feeling the effects of that.

John: With Pop-Tarts still. Pop-Tarts. You would already shed those.

Bill: Well, you know, it’s a funny thing ‘cause every once in a while, I’d be like hitting the candy machine—

John: Oh, yeah.

Bill: …binging. I went through these binge cycles where I was like eating kind of healthy and then I’d be like “Man…” Like something would overcome me. I’d be like “Arggh.”

John: Just get it all.

Bill: Like downing a whole pint of ice cream, bam, or whatever, you know.

John: Totally, man. Like I threw the lid away on those when I was younger and then people were like “What are you doing?” I was like “This isn’t a single serving? Like this isn’t a sit down and just go to town on like those little Ben & Jerry kinda—” It’s like “Why do we have the lid? Like just throw it out. Like why are keeping that?”

Bill: It is so apropos we call that little, all right.

John: Exactly.

Bill: It’s like pints of ice cream, this little pint.

John: Right. But it’s more than just the eating for you. I mean there’s so much more to it now. You know, it’s groomed to be a bigger thing as well.

Bill: Yeah. I mean, it’s become a lifestyle really. And you know, I think that’s very much guided from observation, you know, observing like how does this feel in my body, how do I feel, just how is my energy and my well-being, even my mood I notice. As I became vegetarian, I became more interested in things like spirituality and meditation and, you know, ethical lifestyle. Things kind of just started naturally falling away from me. Like I wasn’t enjoying drinking anymore. I wasn’t enjoying like smoking whatever it was I was smoking at that time anymore, you know. I almost started feeling like handicapped when I was doing this.

John: Oh, okay. Like it was holding you back.

Bill: Yeah. I thought before I was like gaining something from doing that. I was like “Yeah, I feel good. I can let loose.” It’s like I can have fun this way, but something changed in such a way that it was very natural. It wasn’t forced. I didn’t have to like suppress the desire even.

John: Right. Yeah.

Bill: And so, that’s why I feel like there’s no judgment in where anybody’s at in their journey. It’s something that just unfolds if it’s supposed to unfold, you know. So, that’s how it was for me.

John: I love that, man. And so, do you feel like there’s a skillset that you bring to your work that comes from this? I mean an accidental byproduct. You know, it’s not why you do it clearly, but something that, you know what, this actually makes me better at my job.

Bill: Well, yeah, a couple things. I mean, one is like I very much pay attention to taking care of my body through food, through trying to do healthy routines.

Being on a decent sleep routine is something I struggle with, but I still kind of try to hold the reins on it a bit because, yeah, that’s gonna affect my performance and my mood. And so, I mean, that’s more on the physical side. You know, like meditation certainly is going to have an effect on my balance and my ability to just stay clear and productive. I mean that’s just in terms of like internal performance. But in terms of like working with people— Like bookkeeping, there’s a lot of technical aspects of that. But you know, on the more consulting side, helping people understand the reports, there is a lot there because money is an emotional subject.

John: Very, very. And people don’t really understand it either, which is probably why it’s more emotional.

Bill: Exactly. Totally. And being an entrepreneur can be very emotionally challenging as well. I almost call it like being an entrepreneur is like a psychospiritual journey.

John: Yeah, it’s a journey. That’s for sure.

Bill: Yeah. There’s so many challenges that we would never have to face if we were working for somebody. No judgment—

John: No, no, no.

Bill: …on those working for somebody. It is its own journey in its own way. Exactly.

John: And you know when you step into the entrepreneurial sphere/arena, this is what you’re gonna deal with, you know. You mess with the bull, you get the horns. Sometimes the bull gets you. Sometimes you get the bull or whatever, you know, type of thing and yeah. And there’s pros and cons, but I love how much of that is spilled over into your business. I mean, even calling it Livestream Business Services, I mean that’s not a common name. I mean, clearly, when people approach you or are talking to you, they’re like “Well, that’s clearly from something. That’s based in something that’s pretty deep.”

Bill: Yeah. I appreciate you noticing that. I did put a lot of thought into the name and I really wanted something that would metaphorically communicate what I feel is the essence of what I wanted to bring to my work, which is essentially, you know, whether it’s through bookkeeping or through my almost like software consultation services, which are kind of more dealing with business and money at a deeper emotional or even spiritual level. But really, the core of what I’d like to do is not only for my own self, but also for others to help us align with the principles of nature.

John: Nice. I mean, you have a niche, you know, where if this isn’t for you, awesome because now we know way before we started talking because we’re not 6 months into a relationship or 2 years into a relationship where they’re like “Woah, woah, I don’t want any of that.” You know, like “Well, that’s what I do.” So, you know, like that’s how this works. And so, it’s for people that want that and that’s cool that you’re not vanilla down the middle of the road. “I’m for everybody.” It’s like “No, you’re not.” I mean, you’re for nobody in the end, you know.

Bill: Yeah. Totally. I like being able to be sort of bring my whole self to my business in terms of not necessarily having to hide that part because it’s such a prominent part of myself, but it’s also I’m not pushing it on people. You know, I have like a graphic designer client or like, you know, another holistic client who maybe they don’t like go that deep with emotions or spirituality. Yeah, that’s fine. You know, I’m their bookkeeper, but like I kind of see where people are at. If I throw out a chrome and they’re not into that chrome, I don’t throw more chromes of that kind unless—

John: “Open your mouth!”

Bill: Yeah, I’m not that guy.

John: “He’s involved. Eat it!”

Bill: Totally.

John: I mean, clearly now, it’s something that comes up, or you talk about, or it’s front facing. But throughout your career, is it something that— you know, sharing an “and” was part of who you were or was it later in your career that you started to share those outside-of-work things?

Bill: You know, it’s interesting. It kind of gets into my journey in that I’ve always been afraid of the corporate world.

John: Oh, okay.

Bill: Like I went to a good school. It was a very corporate school. University of Rochester.

John: Oh, yeah.

Bill: I’m one of those guys who were becoming doctors or they were like being groomed for the corporate world and something in me was like “Am I really in the right place here?”

John: So, for you, it’s almost the opposite where instead of people being in the corporate world and maybe sharing their “and”, you were in your “and.” Maybe sharing that you had a corporate side.

Bill: Exactly.

John: It’s the opposite.

Bill: And you know, it’s funny. Totally. And I never really fully expressed that corporate side. Like I ended up going to a meditation retreat center and going like fully on into this really internal journey. But what I’m seeing now that I didn’t see 20 years ago or whatever it was— Yeah, 20 years ago I guess. Wow, I can’t believe it’s been that long. You know, with the changes that are happening with, you know, thought leaders like yourself where the corporate culture is becoming a lot more holistic minded and people can’t— you know, the corporate ideal where, you know, these companies are really there to nurture their employees, like I find that really encouraging.

And you know, I wouldn’t be opposed to like jumping in with a stellar job with the corporation if the conditions were right. Whereas like before, I just can’t even conceive. It’s like does that even exist? And maybe I loved, it could have, but—

John: Yeah. But it’s a needle in the haystack 20 years ago. And now, holistic as in, you know, work should not be a net extraction. It should be a net positive for the people. And so, it’s not like I go to work, and then they just suck everything out of me, and then I leave and then come back, and then they suck more out of me. You know, it’s like they should be putting in as well. Sure, some days or some weeks, “Look, it’s extraction time. You got to buckle down and nail it.” But at the end of the year, at the end of the quarter, whatever it is, it should still be a net positive for people. Yeah, I think that some people are starting to get it. I’m not sure if they know how to do that, but they want to at least. And so, you know, I do like how the tide is turning. And certainly, you know, there is opportunity there. And you know, if people are listening now and they’re like “I’ve never even thought about that”, well, now you’ve heard it. You can’t un-hear it, you know. So, there’s that too.

Bill: There you go.

John: Yeah, I love it, man. And so, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone that’s listening that has an end that they think no one’s gonna care or it has nothing to do with my job, so why talk about it?

Bill: Yeah. A couple things. Actually, before I go into that, I wanna speak to what you just brought up ‘cause this is what I call the principle of mutual prosperity. The principle of mutual prosperity is really at the heart of any holistic way of doing business whether it’s corporate, or small business, or personal transactions; having an agreement with your landlord or with your tenant; it’s where we generate prosperity together. It’s that versus an extractive exchange. So, every transaction, every exchange results into happy parties rather than one feeling like “Ugh, that felt off, you know.” You know what I mean? And so, I feel like that’s a principle of nature. We see that nature in terms of symbiosis. Right? Our business relationships can be symbiotic where we’re helping each other. You know what I mean? So, I think that’s a mindset shift that’s happening. I don’t know if you’ve heard of like the permaculture movement.

John: No, I haven’t actually.

Bill: It’s fascinating. There’s ways of setting up a garden that different plants actually complement each other and enhance each other’s like performance. Or if you look at like an ecosystem, the system is set that these plants and animals are actually complementing each other and enhancing each other’s chances of survival. And so, as a corporate culture, if you can set up your company’s systems, and crews, and roles in such a way that you’re creating that symphony, it’s incredibly powerful. If you see like a beehive, you know, they’re incredibly productive. They’re working towards a common purpose. And you know, it’s very efficient. So, I feel like that’s the—

John: No, I love it, man. I love it. that is so awesome. I mean, really a great way to wrap it up ‘cause, I mean, that’s so perfect. I love it. But I do feel like it’s only fair since I so rudely fired away at you with questions at the beginning that we flip the tables. This is the Bill Hershey podcast and you’re the host. I’m the guest. And you can ask me whatever you want, man. Here we go.

Bill: Sweet. Okay. So, these are nature boy questions if you don’t mind.

John: Okay. No, all good. Here we go.

Bill: All right. So, what’s your favorite flower, John?

John: Favorite flower, ooh, that’s gonna be a good one. I mean, gerbera daisies are always fun ‘cause they’re bright, and they’re colorful and all. That’s always a good one I guess. Yeah. I’ll go with that.

Bill: Sweet.

John: Yeah.

Bill: Daisies are great. Awesome. What’s your favorite season of the year?

John: Fall hands down. Fall. I mean, leaves are changing colors. That’s always awesome. College football’s happening. That’s always awesome. It’s not hot anymore. That’s especially awesome. Yeah, fall easily.

Bill: Right on. So, what’s your favorite tree?

John: Ooh, that’s a good one. Favorite tree, maybe I’ll go ginkgo maybe.

Bill: Ginkgo, all right.

John: The leaves are just so cool and like that’s probably why. I don’t know why.

Bill: It’s good for the brain too.

John: Oh, yeah. You’re right. It is good for the brain, which is ironic that I don’t know why. It’s like my brain isn’t working, but Ginkgo.

Bill: Maybe it’s what you need. Maybe it’s calling for it.

John: That’s exactly it. That’s exactly it. Yeah. So, there you go. It’s awesome. Those are great questions, man. Things I never thought about. So, that’s even better, but very cool. Thank you so much, Bill, for being a part of what you’re in. This was so much fun.

Bill: Right on. Thank you for having me, John. It’s been amazing.

John: Everyone listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Bill outside of work or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.