Author: johng

Welcome to Episode 441 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. It goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture, and I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Christie Boriack. She’s an interior designer with Angeline Guido Design in Dallas, Texas, and now she’s with me here today. Christie, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Christie: Hi, John. Thank you so much for having me.

John: Oh, no, this is going to be so much fun. Thank you for being on the show. First interior designer on the show, so I’m excited —

Christie: Oh, really?

John: — for that. Yeah, absolutely.

Christie: That’s awesome. I’m glad to represent.

John: Right? No pressure, no pressure. I have some rapid-fire questions here to ask you. Get to know Christie right out of the gate here. Normally this is an easy one, but as an interior designer, I think not so much. Do you have a favorite color?

Christie: Oh, my gosh, what a question for an interior designer.

John: Right? All of them.

Christie: All of them. It totally depends on what it’s applied to, if this is for fashion, for interior, whatever. I would say my rapid-fire answer would actually be white.

John: White.

Christie: I love wearing all white. I don’t even know if you count that as a color.

John: No, that counts. That counts. Absolutely.

Christie: Yeah, that’s my rapid-fire answer.

John: It’s a crayon in the Crayola box, so I think it counts.

Christie: There you go. Yeah.

John: Absolutely. How about a least favorite color?

Christie: I don’t know. I don’t think I have one.

John: Okay. Just in case they’re listening, you don’t want to make them angry.

Christie: Yeah, I don’t think I have, off the top of my head. I think they all are beautiful.

John: Yeah. Well, you’ve seen them all used in so many different ways. For someone like me, it’s clearly vivid. It’s just easy. Red. All of them, all the reds, all the maroon. All right, here’s one for sure. Shower or bath.

Christie: Shower.

John: Shower.

Christie: Yeah. Bath every once in a while, but we do our best thinking in the shower.

John: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, yeah. That’s a good point. How about a favorite day of the week?

Christie: I would have to say Saturday.

John: Nice.

Christie: Probably most people’s, but that day, I get to do whatever I want whenever I want. No one’s waiting on me, most of the time.

John: There you go. Finally, my day.

Christie: There’ a lot of freedom.

John: Right? There you go. There you go. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw puzzle?

Christie: Oh, wow. Do Legos count?

John: Legos, yes. I love that. That’s a great answer. That’s a great answer.

Christie: I’m going to answer with Legos.

John: Nice.

Christie: Yeah. I think Legos would top all those options.

John: Awesome. Love it. Actually, I’m going to have to agree with you on that one. That’s a trick question. Legos is the only right answer. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Christie: I love Bradley Cooper.

John: Oh, yeah.

Christie: Yeah.

John: He’s funny and good. Yeah.

Christie: Funny, good, only better with age.

John: He’s a wine. That’s what he is.

Christie: He’s a wine.

John: Bradley Cooper wine.

Christie: Yes.

John: How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Christie: I don’t think I can really claim to be a huge fan of either one, but if I had to say, probably Star Wars just because I have sentimental memories watching that with my brothers and family, growing up. Yeah, classic.

John: If you had to pick. There you go. How about your computer, more PC or a Mac?

Christie: PC, for sure.

John: Oh, really? Okay.

Christie: Well, a lot of interior design software is not compatible or not very well used with a Mac, so I’ve just learned that PC is the easiest way to go for me.

John: I’m PC all the way as well, but I figured, with the design stuff that, yeah, Mac, they’re just acting like they’re cool.

Christie: Yes, surprisingly, too cool for school.

John: Right, right. There it is. How about more heels or flats?

Christie: Heels, oh, for sure. There’s so much power in them.

John: Right? When I wear my heel — okay, I don’t.

Christie: The clickety-clack sound, the extra height, everything, yeah, definitely more power to those women who can wear heels, and some men out there.

John: Yeah, I would have two broken ankles in about three seconds, so we’re all good on that. It’s impressive, for sure. Not that I’ve tried. One of my “ands” is ice cream. What, did you have a favorite ice cream flavor?

Christie: I would have to say cookie dough ice cream is definitely my go-to, yeah, most favorite.

John: Excellent choice. Excellent choice. How about more talk or text?

Christie: Talk, always. I’m that annoying person that will answer a text with a phone call. Yeah.

John: Right.

Christie: A lot of people don’t like that, but I hate the time it takes. I’m so bad at answering text. I don’t get back to people, and it makes me feel like a horrible person. They’ll emphasize the text message with that question mark or exclamation point. I’m like, oh, I got to give them a call and just get this over with.

John: Right? What’s with the attitude?

Christie: Really, FaceTime, honestly, over all of those. I’m a FaceTimer more than I am even a caller.

John: There you go. Nice. Yeah. How about a first concert?

Christie: Oh, my gosh. I grew up in a Christian home, and my mom loved just pop, rock and roll version of Christian music, horrible stuff.

John: Sure. Yeah.

Christie: I doubt many of your listeners will know, but my first concert was a TobyMac concert. I don’t know if he even does music anymore. He’s got to be ancient by now. At the same time, it wouldn’t totally surprise me if he does. Yeah, that was my first ever concert. It was very, yeah, this poppy Christian music.

John: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That’s awesome. That’s so cool. How about a favorite number?

Christie: Seven, the number of completion.

John: Yeah. Is there a reason?

Christie: I think it’s just known as the number of completion in the Bible.

John: Oh, yeah.

Christie: I don’t know. It’s always just been my favorite number.

John: No, it’s one of mine, for sure. Yeah, very popular answer. How about books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Christie: Audio book. I love a good audio book. I’ve been trying to get more into physical books lately and learn to be a little bit of a faster reader. It takes me months to finish a paper book. Audio books, I love. I feel like I’m watching a movie.

John: I feel like I should record me reading my book, a YouTube video of me reading the book.

Christie: You should.

John: Then you can get to…

Christie: A book is always better read by the author.

John: Yeah. I did the audio version for mine. It’s not easy, and I wrote it.

Christie: What is that process like?

John: It’s like recording an album, I would imagine. It was about eight hours in a studio over two days.

Christie: Oh, my gosh.

John: Yeah, and somebody listening to every single word you say to make sure that you don’t switch words or skip a word. It’s an interesting study in what your brain does. Because when you’re reading, you’ll mix up words. It means the exact same thing, but it’s not exactly what’s on the paper. There were several times where I would like argue and be like, I wrote this, that’s what it should be.

Christie: No way. That’s so funny, where you wanted to change your book.

John: Right. The good thing was there were no typos. Because when you read it that meticulously, you’d definitely find that out. That’s for sure. I was pretty excited about that. When it comes to interior design, do you prefer sketching or on a computer?

Christie: I think both are crucial. In the moment, you don’t always have your computer with you. Even if you do, it’s not quite as free thinking as a sketch would be. Sketch always first is my motto and then put it in the computer later.

John: Make it pretty.

Christie: Yeah.

John: Okay. Two more. Chocolate or vanilla.

Christie: Chocolate.

John; Yeah. There you go. That was a slam dunk. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Christie: Oh, man. The first thing that comes to mind are my cats.

John: Yeah, that’s a totally good answer.

Christie: Probably because recently, I actually lost one of them for a day. They’re just your cats until one of them goes away. You’re like, dang, I really loved that little guy. He came back. Yeah, that’s the first thing I thought of when you said that.

John: No, that’s a totally valid answer. That’s awesome. Very cool. Very cool. That works. Let’s talk being a social connector.

Christie: Yes.

John: How did that get started? Is it something that you were doing as a kid in the playground or something that you got into later in life?

Christie: Yeah, so social connector, where you’re open to connecting and receiving people into your life, into your home, into your space; I would say it started at a young age. Growing up, I grew up in a large family. I’m one of five kids. From a young age, very much remember my home being an open one. My parents were really inviting. We wanted our house to be the one where all of our friends came over. I remember specifically Thanksgivings were a huge thing at our house, not because it’s time where our extended family would come, which they would, but my parents would announce to our whole community world and friends and be like, hey, if you have nowhere to go or if you don’t have family, or family that’s in town; come over, you’re going to spend Thanksgiving with us.

John: That’s awesome.

Christie: My mom would just coordinate with our friends in doing a big potluck, and say, hey, it doesn’t matter if we’ve never met you, it doesn’t matter if you just want to stop by or if you want to hang out for hours, you are welcome here. Our doors are open. I loved being around that. Even, I can think later on in high school, this is when it really manifested into my own thing. I would plan with my siblings, these monthly movie nights.

John: Oh, okay.

Christie: Yeah. We would invite, again, all of our friends and their friends and more. There’d be like, 50 kids at our house, once a month.

John: Oh, my gosh.

Christie: Yeah. Once a month, all piled in our game room, laying on the floor, just anywhere you could fit, to watch a movie together. I would get super into it. I’d make tons of pasta because that was what you made for the masses. I would plan a game beforehand. It was just, yeah, something we did.

John: That’s awesome.

Christie: Yeah, I really, really enjoyed that. You and I, even before this went back and forth on social connectors as a gatherer, what do you call this? I think, now, being raised in that kind of environment and now being an adult and acquiring it in my own life, I’ve learned that it’s become more than just entertaining people as guests.

John: Right. That’s very surface level. Everyone’s putting on their best social media face and their best dress and whatever, and I’m acting, whatever. It’s like, just be real. When it’s movie night, you can’t fake it. We’re here.

Christie: We’re not here to impress. Yeah.

John: Exactly.

Christie: That’s a huge differentiator there, is not coming with any sort of expectation or wanting to impress your guests, but making them feel a certain way, is where it’s really, really important. Growing up, I think my parents did a good job of exemplifying that. Especially my mom, she was really good at greeting people. Everyone who walked through the door was like a celebrity.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Christie: If Megan came through the door, she’d be like, oh, my God, Megan’s here, yay! Just give her a hug. You guys, Megan came. It was everyone. Everyone got that treatment.

John: I feel like that’s what my dog says, every time I come home.

Christie: Right, making people feel celebrated as soon as they walk in, and she did a good job of not — even when people were over and if the dishes piled up or if there was a mess in the kitchen or things were unorderly or maybe not overseen at all times. She could be in the corner, talking to a friend with a really intense one-on-one tearful conversation for a second and then come back. Yeah, I think it began there.

John: Yeah. Just imagine everyone feels like TobyMac, coming in your house. The whole time, you’re like, is TobyMac here? Oh, it’s just Wendy. Never mind. Forget about it.

Christie: Yes. Yes.

John: It’s not even close. It’s circle back for everybody. I think that’s so great. There’s more than the invitation and the space to have people hang out. There’s the intention behind it. It’s a genuineness there, I feel like, that’s deeper and richer, which is great.

Christie: Yes, and that is so rare now.

John: Oh, for sure.

Christie: Every day, our lives and our society revolve around our devices and our phones and social media. Although, intelligently used, that can be a wonderful tool and a great asset to life. I think, in a lot of ways, it’s caused this generation-wide disease of social anxiety, especially, I can say, for my generation, as millennials, we are most known for having that. We have this fear of social settings a lot. We have this anticipation of anxiety that we’re going to get when we walk into a gathering. We have, honestly, poor verbal skills.

John: Oh, yeah.

Christie: From not having enough one-on-one conversation practice and a lot of texting.

John: Just look me in the eyes. Can we start with that? Let’s just start with that.

Christie: Exactly. All that breeds this insecurity and this anxiousness. I think providing an atmosphere where, honestly, you just simplify it. I think people think of hosting or think of inviting people into your home or into, it doesn’t even have to be your home, into any space that you offer can be an overthought thing. We can overthink. Okay, how’s the house going to look? What kind of dishes am I going to lay out? What kind of music should I play? What could I wear? Again, we start to overthink and get this weird expectation of perfection.

John: Yeah.

Christie: I think if you just simplify it down to only focusing on the person in front of you in that moment; of course, you might have responsibilities, or of course, you might have things to do while you’re in that space; but honing in on that person is going to just let down all those walls and allow them to be more raw and have that practice of getting some genuine, raw human connection, away from their devices and away from their phones and away from distractions and hurriedness, constantly. It’s a really crazy idea that we’re not used to doing that, that we do the opposite, 90% of the time.

John: Yeah, it’s sad. Especially as adults, we’re done making friends. We’ve already made our friends. Actually, we’ve started to lose them now. We’re pairing them back.

Christie: It’s so sad.

John: It’s crazy. Yeah. I love that, how it’s at your home. I’ve always said, if I’m going to invite people over, this is my home. If you don’t like whatever, then you’re not my friend, number one. Number two, you can go. I’m not holding you hostage. He doesn’t have his fancy plates, or he doesn’t, whatever. It’s like, really?

Christie: Yeah, surprisingly, they don’t care. They don’t care if — yeah, I was over at, it was a gathering of girls. We were having a dinner. It was a group of girls that I didn’t know very well. I had gone over to this one girl’s apartment, and she had all these ladies over. She had such a sweet and beautiful intention to have a really cute, fun time. She had the table out, candlesticks, tablecloth. It had the potential for being really awesome, but I remember, honestly, the thing that sticks out to me, looking back at that event, is that she was 100% in the kitchen, busy, busy, busy, so concerned with, is the food out? Is it hot enough? Is it ready? Is everyone comfortable? Does everyone have a drink? Does everyone know where the bathroom is? Does everyone — where to put their bag. Of course, as we say in the south, bless her heart.

John: There you go.

Christie: It is coming from a place of love and good intention, but you just wanted to shake her a little bit and be like, sit down and talk to me.

John: Just dial it down a little bit.

Christie: This doesn’t have to be forced. We don’t care about your dog barking in the other room. We really don’t care about doing the dishes right now. It was a good perspective to be on the other side and be like, yeah, I really like it when people can just hover around a table or hover around a living room and get lost in each other for a second and allow the freedom to come in, the barriers to come down, and just for a moment, you forget about your persona and your, again, your device. When you come out of that, you’re like, wow, that was really refreshing. Wow, that was life-giving. That was really fun.

John: I love that so much. Yeah, that’s awesome. Do you feel like this skill, if you will, at all translates to work?

Christie: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think your surroundings really do shape your perceptions and how you think and how you build relationships. As an interior designer, when I walk into a space, I am always thinking about the connections that are going to happen there, the life that’s going to be lived there, and how that’s going to play out, not only in function, but on a relational level. I think, yeah, being able to draw from personal experiences and from personal, just rituals and again, this is like a hobby of mine and can be of anyone’s, to make these connections happen and make these moments happen for people; yeah, absolutely helps me in my job, for sure.

John: Which is hilarious because I’m sure at no point in your education did they tell you, hey, host a lot of gatherings or do movie night as a kid, and you’ll be a better interior designer and architect and what have you.

Christie: Right.

John: It’s like, you’re way ahead, which is cool. Is this something that comes up at work? Do we sometimes invite coworkers to things?

Christie: I have before, probably not enough, honestly. A lot of the times, the conversation looks like, what did you do this weekend? Or, did you do anything fun? Or, do you have any plans coming up? I can always say, oh, yeah, you know what? I went on a walk with a friend and then was like, I have some strawberries in my fridge. You want to come up and eat some strawberries with me? It can be as simple as that, as taking the time and the intention to be like, I have you here. I’m not done talking with you. Let’s hover a little longer and enjoy each other’s company and do life together. That’s not really easily explained to your coworkers, or it’s not really something you can get across quickly that you’re really trying to build connection here and not just have a party.

John: The depth of it, yeah, exactly.

Christie: Yeah, the depth of is not communicated.

John: Because it’s like, oh, I had some friends over. Oh, okay, whatever. No, no, no. We actually put all our phones in a basket when we walked in the door, and we didn’t even look at them for three hours. We solved all the world’s problems. It was amazing.

Christie: Yeah. It was unplanned. It was spontaneous. It was at the park.

John: Yeah. That’s awesome. Then we did Movie Night. What? As an adult, that would be incredible.

Christie: Wouldn’t it be so fun to —

John: Right? I would totally fly to Dallas for movie night, totally.

Christie: You’re invited.

John: Depending on the movie, of course, but yeah.

Christie: Isn’t that crazy though? You’re making me think. As a teenager and as a kid, it was so much easier to connect and make friends fast, to where inviting them over wasn’t awkward, if you had just met them. It wasn’t. It was like, hey, you can play with me.

John: Yeah, and asking them about their life and who they are, get below that surface level.

Christie: Right. Where do you live? Who’s your mom and dad? Yeah.

John: It’s just what you did. We forgot how to make friends now.

Christie: Along the way, yeah, we lost that. It’s such a sad thing. Then we learn how to fear or be guarded. The world tells us to be a certain way, and then we get really insecure. It’s so sad. It really is.

John: It really is.

Christie: It’s something that I’m trying to bring back, and I know I need in my own life. It’s not just a hobby all centered around others. I get so much out of this. I need this.

John: Yeah, you’re the Timberlake. You’re bringing friendships back. No, but it’s so true. Would you say that that’s maybe why people dive into their professional identity so much, because it’s safe.? You can defend that. You have a degree. You have this experience. This is who I am. It’s in a suit of armor.

Christie: It’s only such a small part of yourself, and a lot of the times, it’s where your value is held. As long as I’m bringing value, I’ll let you know me. As soon as any kind of vulnerable aspect of me, my failures, my fears, even my desires or dreams, then I’m going to put a guard up. Making friends as an adult, with that kind of depth and that kind of connection can be so awkward at first, but I think you have to just embrace the awkward. You have to embrace it to move past it. I know the place where, a lot of the times, our discomfort comes from or where we get a resistant feeling is where the most opportunity lies, and we’ve got to embrace it.

John: I love that.

Christie: Yeah. That can be applied to career as well, a lot of things, but I think people forget to embrace the discomfort and awkwardness of relationships, people, community and your inner circle. There’s so much that can be benefited there from having that.

John: Yeah, and it’s in life and at work. Those connections that you make in the office, whether it’s with clients or customers or other departments that you’re interacting with, or just someone that you’re working on a project with, just work is better. It’s still human to human transactions happening, even though we both work for companies or whatever it is, type of thing. That’s so great, so great. How much do you feel like it’s on the organization to create that space for people to be able to have these deeper conversations or share a little bit of their “and”, if you will, or how much is it on the individual to just get it started?

Christie: Yeah, I think it’s on both. I don’t think it should be just something pressured on our leaders or CEOs or managers at our company to allow that space because I think it can be cultivated by the assistant, per se. It can be cultivated by anybody in any role. You can open up that space and let others into. I know there’s a lot of people, and even me, myself, find it hard to know where the boundaries are when it comes to, okay, should I be besties with my coworkers? Or should this be strictly a work relationship? At the end of the day, even if they’re not your buddy buddy, you’re both human. You both have fears. You both have desires. You both have dreams. You both can connect together to get that peace of mind, at points in your workday or in your happy hour or whenever you can find the time to, again, let those walls down and find that peace of mind and get lost for a second.

John: Yeah. That’s so great. Yeah, because it’s not getting creepy. Some people, you’re going to be besties with, and you’re going to hang out a lot, and you’re going to know more of. With other people, it’s just a little bit, just a touch below surface level. That’s all. It’s amazing how, when I worked corporate, I’d ask people, so what do you do? They’re like, well, I take this spreadsheet in the night. No, no, I know what your job is, and I also kind of don’t care. What do you do? Who are you as a person?

Christie: Yes.

John: When we leave here, what do you do?

Christie: What do you like?

John: What’s so sad is so many people struggle with that, and I hope people listening, well, either have an answer, or you start thinking of an answer because you have to have something.

Christie: Right. I know people who are so scared to post or to share even pictures online or on their social media, of them having fun, of them doing something other than their work or their job. I’m like, no. I can say —

John: It’s so funny but true.

Christie: Right. In my professional life, personally, and this might not be every field, but being an interior designer, I have clients who follow me on social media. I have people that I’m working with, DM me or comment on my pictures. I think it only is more authentic and more relatable if you post your cat or your dog or your goals outside of your job. I think it’s something that they, at first, was a little bit intimidating to think about. Oh, shoot, these people who pay me to provide this service actually see that I am a goofy person. I can get really silly or go off on rants or whatever.

John: Right, but they’re goofy and silly too, so they can connect.

Christie: Exactly. Simplify and embrace the imperfection and the awkward. I think the more you give, you’ll be surprised at how much you receive in return. It’s awesome.

John: That’s so great, and it’s so true. It just makes me think. If you’re not going to post social things on social media, post pictures of you in your cube, just post pictures of you at your desk.

Christie: On the phone.

John: This is me on the phone talking to a client, doing a billion-dollar deal. No, it’s not. Shut up.

Christie: It’s just a weird mentality that’s toxic, honestly.

John: This is a video of me running to the Xerox machine. What?

Christie: Water break.

John: That would be a hilarious social media account. Maybe I’ll just do that. That takes away from the richness, and I love — I mean, the theme here is just embrace the weird, embrace the awkward, embrace that and get through it because on the other side is a richer, deeper relationship.

Christie: Yeah.

John: Which is great.

Christie: For sure, and I think it’ll start to translate into your career and into your work. The things that most fulfill us are, is the work that doesn’t only impact us, that only doesn’t reward us with a paycheck or whatever that looks like. It’s when you can see the direct benefit that goes to another human, I think, is when we’re most fulfilled, and we’re most rewarded, and we feel most encouraged to keep on going. I think if you practice it, it starts in your personal life, if you practice it with the few people you know, your neighbor, your family or just the person that you’ve talked to a couple times, it’s going to translate into your job and into your work, and make it richer.

John: That’s awesome. I love it. I love it. That’s so great. Before I wrap this up, I feel like it’s only fair, since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, that we turn the tables, the first episode of the Christie Boriack podcast. Thanks for having me on as your guest. You can ask me whatever you want.

Christie: I’m so excited. I love, love questions. Okay, what is something about yourself that you hope never changes?

John: Oh, that’s a good question. I guess just having a sense of humor.

Christie: That’s a good one. Yeah.

John: Sometimes I’m the only one that sees the irony in things though. That’s the double-edged sword of it. Definitely just laughing at things, especially in the last year and a half of, well, why not? Sure. After you’ve been run over ten times, what’s an 11th? Really? It doesn’t even hurt anymore. It doesn’t even hurt.

Christie: No, that’s a good one. Something so necessary and a gift to those who need it at times who can’t find humor in things, for sure.

John: Yeah, yeah.

Christie: Okay, dancing or singing.

John: Oh, dancing all day. I can’t sing for anything. Even when I’m at church, old ladies turn around. They’re like, you know what, God still loves you if you lip sync. You’re totally fine.

Christie: Oh, my God.

John: I can play instruments great.

Christie: Nice.

John: I can hear music, all that, but singing, for some reason, when it comes out of my mouth, is not good at all.

Christie: Missed.

John: Yeah.

Christie: That’s funny. Okay, what is your go-to pick me up for a bad day?

John: Go-to pick me up for a bad day. Wow, that’s a good one. I don’t know. Probably music, probably listening to some fun songs, Blink-182, Killers, kind of upbeat, alternative. I’m going to have to throw TobyMac in the mix now, but things like that.

Christie: TobyMac.

John: Upbeat alternative music, that’s kind of fun.

Christie: Yeah.

John: That always changes the mood.

Christie: It’s amazing how powerful music really can influence your mood, real fast.

John: Definitely. Definitely.

Christie: Okay, I have one more. What is changing in your life right now?

John: Oh, what is changing? Wow, that’s a good one. My hairline is definitely changing, and my waistband.

Christie: That can count. That can count.

John: Also, I’m playing the piano again, which is really fun.

Christie: Oh, nice.

John: It’s getting back, learning that again. I grew up playing and then stopped for a long time. When my father passed away, got the piano that I grew up playing that he grew up playing.

Christie: Oh, that’s awesome.

John: It’s been really fun. It’s also cool because now that there’s the internet, you can just Google a song, and there’s the piano music for it. When you’re a kid, you have to play all these classical songs.

Christie: Right. You have to learn how to read music and all that. Yeah. Now you can just copy.

John: Right. Now it’s pop songs and songs you hear on the radio and cool stuff. Yeah, it’s really fun.

Christie: You can even draw the key letters on your keyboard and not get in trouble for it.

John: Yeah, exactly. Little stickers or whatever. That’s been fun. That’s been really fun. I guess that’s what’s changing, is getting back into the piano again and more.

Christie: That’s awesome. I love that. Very cool.

John: Well, thank you so much, Christie, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This has been so much fun.

Christie: Absolutely. Oh, this is a blast. Yeah. I could talk about this all day.

John: Well, in movie night, we’ll pick it up then.

Christie: Exactly.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Christie in action with some of her social connecting or just outside of work, or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 440 of What’s Your “And”? Follow-Up Friday edition. This is John Garrett, and each Friday, I follow up with a guest who had been on the show a few years ago, to hear what’s new with their passions outside of work and also hear how this message might have impacted them since we last talked.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. The book, in general, goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and now listening to it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this Follow-Up Friday is no different with my guest, Michael Durant. He’s a senior tax accountant with Prager Metis in New York City, and now he’s with me here today. Michael, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Michael: Thank you. Thank you for having me, John.

John: Yeah, absolutely, man. This is going to be awesome. We’ve chatted in between, a couple of times, but it’s cool to have you be a part of this again. Financial literacy awareness is super key. I love what you’re doing, man. It’s awesome. I do have some rapid-fire questions, get to know Michael out of the gate here, ones I didn’t ask last time, and maybe I should have. Seat belts buckled, here we go. All right, if you had to choose, Harry Potter or Game of Thrones.

Michael: Game of Thrones.

John: Oh, wow. That was easy one.

Michael: So easy.

John: Solid, solid. Yeah, it was, hands down. All right, more socks or shoes.

Michael: Socks.

John: How about a favorite cereal?

Michael: Oh, Fruity Pebbles just because that’s what I’m looking at.

John: Fruity Pebbles, nice.

Michael: That’s what I’m looking at.

John: That’s what you’re looking at. That’s awesome. I love that. Great answer. How about your first concert?

Michael: I’ve never really been big on concerts, but I did do — there was one, was it the World Concert that they hold in Central Park here, and they had a bunch of artists come. That’s the most memorable concert that I can think of, I’ve been to.

John: Yeah, totally. No, that’s awesome, man. That’s a great concert. Absolutely. How about when it comes to books, audio version, Kindle version or real book?

Michael: I prefer to read a real book, but time is of the essence. Sometimes you’ve got to hit the audio book while you’re doing other stuff.

John: Right. Double speed and just bam, bam. There you go. You just knock it out. I like that. How about, would you say more suit and tie or jeans and a T-shirt?

Michael: Jeans and a T-shirt. COVID has made me real comfortable.

John: There you go. Because I know you’re a suit and tie guy too, that’s why I wasn’t sure which one would work. All right, and the last one, toilet paper roll, over or under.

Michael: Ooh, I’m going to get hated for this because I know what the correct answer is. Under.

John: Under. Okay.

Michael: I hope that’s the one that the majority rule is on.

John: Against the wall. You’re just like, there you go. All right. People with cats usually are on the under. Most people are on the over. It’s all good. It’s all good. Just be careful if you invite people over to your house, they might switch it on you. People are really adamant about that one. That’s pretty funny. Yeah, let’s talk about financial literacy awareness and how cool it is. Just maybe back up for some of the people that didn’t hear Episode 186, of just what it is that you’re doing with that.

Michael: Yeah. At the beginning, I just started out of college. I started volunteering with organizations, going to high schools originally and some community organizations, and teaching young kids about budgeting, taxes, just understanding, hey, when that check comes, it’s not the $15 an hour you thought you were earning, it’s a little bit less, and importance of savings, importance of insurance, and just the things that we as adults learn way too late in life.

John: No, no, absolutely, man. There are a lot of adults that I’ve met that could go through some of what you’re doing. It’s amazing how our relationship with money is just, it’s complicated because of those reasons that we don’t really know about it or how it works or how to take care of it. You worked so hard to earn it, don’t lose it all, and just, yeah, how it works. I love that. It’s something that you’re still doing?

Michael: Yeah. I actually am giving a presentation tomorrow, based on insurance and wealth preservation for the New York Public Library.

John: That’s very cool, man. Yeah. The library’s putting it on and inviting people to come and then there you go. You’re dropping knowledge bombs on them. I like it.

Michael: Yeah, the public library, especially here in New York, always has great series going on, and this has been an ongoing one. This was a category that they didn’t really have someone presenting on, and they reached out and asked me to do it. I said, I could talk a little bit about it.

John: Right. How many hours do you want? That’s great because everyone that’s coming is at a lower level, and you’re able to just step it up just a little bit, stuff that they’ve never heard about, or reinforcing things that they had heard before but maybe weren’t putting into action. That’s super cool. Do you feel people in general are sharing their hobbies and interests more now than when we first talked?

Michael: Oh, I think so because I think the pandemic required everyone to find something else to do.

John: Right. Yeah.

Michael: I think a lot of my coworkers, when we talk, a lot of my friends, everyone has picked up a new hobby. Even if they had a hobby before, it might have been like, oh, it was a hobby that required, in the beginning, to be around a bunch of people, so now I picked up something different. For me, it was, I’ve been battling my brother in chess for —

John: Oh, okay. I love that you used the word battle. That’s intense. It’s only because you’re brothers, which is why it’s a battle.

Michael: He watches YouTube videos.

John: Oh, that’s cheating. He’s totally cheating.

Michael: Oh, yeah, he’s well-trained. He moves pieces like this is X opening wide open. Queen’s Gambit was a whole thing for him.

John: Oh, yeah. That was a great show. Absolutely. That was an awesome show. That’s cool though, man. That’s new for you? Or the battle part of it maybe is new.

Michael: The battle part is new. We always played board games together. During the pandemic, we spent a lot more time together, and so we started playing chess. I was winning for a long time. All of a sudden, he got really good really fast, and I couldn’t figure out why. YouTube. So far, I’m up three in a row right now.

John: Oh, okay. All right. All right. I think you should just retire. Just be like, oh, I lost the board, can’t play anymore. Sorry.

Michael: Right.

John: As the older brother, you get to control that side of things. That’s funny. Do you have an overall score? Or is it more of just an in-a-row thing?

Michael: It’s more of in-a-row thing. We’ve been playing for, what, it’s been 18 months now.

John: Right. That’s crazy. Yeah, that would be a lot of games. That would be pretty impressive. That’s cool though, man. It’s something new. It’s something different. It doesn’t require crowds or being at restaurants or bars or stadiums or whatever. Plus, it’s bonding time with your brother, which is always good.

Michael: Yeah. Sometimes we’ll just — the board is in the living room, on a coffee table, so I’ll move a piece. We have a little thing on the table that we use to keep track of whose turn it is. It’s the honor system. Sometimes we’re sitting there together. Sometimes it’s just, I walk past, move it, he’ll walk past, make his move. I’ll leave a little note, check.

John: Right. That’s great. I would probably take a picture of the board just to make sure he doesn’t rearrange a couple of pieces and be like, wait a minute, that’s not where that was. That’s awesome though, man. Yeah, that’s super cool. That’s fantastic. Also, to hear that your coworkers are also talking about their thing, is this something that just comes up naturally? Or does the firm have something specific that they do, tone at the top sort of thing, or just…

Michael: Yeah, the firm puts on a charity auction. In the past, the partners would showcase some of their skills, or anyone would showcase their skills. We’ve had people who are chefs who would donate a meal prepped by them, and do an auction on it. Zumba classes, painting lessons, our firm really promotes our activities. Then within, other people, there are, of course, the cliques that this group is into skiing, they’re skiing group and stuff like that.

John: I love that idea though, where there are people that work for the firm that have these “ands” that then other people auction on, to get. That’s a freaking cool idea, man. Because then you’re accidentally learning what everyone else’s “ands” are, and then they’re able to provide it to a coworker. I love that so much. That’s such a simple idea and really cool. I’d have to imagine that there have been some things that come up that you’re like, wow, I had no idea that she likes to whatever, or he likes to whatever, type of thing.

Michael: Oh, yes. One of my coworkers was an amazing artist. I had no idea. She donated her artwork for the auction, and it was like, wow.

John: Yeah. Right? You remember that. It’s like, well, what was her job? Well, I forget exactly what her job was, but she’s a painter. I know that much. That’s super cool, man. I love that. I love that so much. It’s just neat to see ways that organizations bring that out in people, and encourage that. It’s cool to hear that you’re somewhere that does that because not everywhere does. How much do you feel like it is a tone at the top sort of thing, or how much is it just amongst your peer group to share?

Michael: I think it definitely has to be a tone at the top thing. The industry that we’re in is changing. Accountants have been known for being stiff, and we’re blossoming. You’re seeing us in places. We’re getting movies and shows now where we’re starting to show up. I think the tone at the top really lets people be themselves. I think the pandemic helped celebrate that for a lot of people because it just opened people up, like, I want to be myself.

John: Yeah. Right. We’ve also been in each other’s homes now. We’ve seen the dogs and the cats and the —

Michael: Kids.

John: — the pictures on the walls and the whatever. We’ve seen all that stuff. As we go to more in-person, let’s not act like we didn’t see that stuff. Ask about it. People love to talk about that side of things. It lights them up. When you talk about financial literacy, you get excited, for sure, and chess as well, now, well, more the battling part of it really. I have a brother as well, a younger brother, and really, you can make anything a battle between two brothers. Clearly, chess is a battle.

Michael: Also, we both take turns cooking. Well, we don’t take turns cooking. He mostly cooks, but occasionally, I’ll cook. It’s always like, he’s cooking, and then I’m Gordon Ramsay coming in. This is how you do it.

John: That’s hilarious.

Michael: I can’t wait for him to hear this.

John: There will be new battles all over the place. Or you come back and the locks are changed. You’re like, I shouldn’t have shown him how to do that. That’s super funny. Do you have any words of encouragement to anybody listening that maybe has an “and” outside of work, a hobby or passion, but they feel like it has nothing to do with their job or that no one’s going to care?

Michael: I think my words of encouragement will be just do it and showcase it. Don’t be afraid of it. I am very open about giving back to my community in this way. I tell my partners. When I get a new opportunity, I bring it to them. I tell my managers, “This is what I’m doing next week, guys.” Because, one, not only does it relate to my field of work. If you do what you love, it’s never work, right? Also, because I’m doing that next week, what are you doing next week?

John: There you go. Absolutely. It’s a can opener. It’s almost where reciprocity has to happen where you share, and the universe is out of balance, if they don’t share back. It takes almost a psychopath to not share back.

Michael: Right.

John: Or you’re just like, um, I think I have to say something now. It’s like, yeah, you do, so what is it, type of thing. Then conversations flow from that. I love that, man, where you’re just putting yourself out there. That’s great advice. Because at no point is someone going to say, “Oh, really? Well, you’re fired.” For some reason, in our brains, we think the worst is going to happen. It’s like, no, it’s not. Just share and then cool things happen, man. I love that. Well, it’s only fair that, since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, that before we wrap this up that I turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Michael Durant podcast. You’re the host. I’m the guest. Whatever you want, man, I’m all yours.

Michael: Okay, I’ve got a few for you. Monopoly or Scrabble.

John: Oh, wow. Monopoly. Yeah.

Michael: Any particular version you like?

John: I have the Simpsons one. That’s particularly fun. The old school classic one is always great too.

Michael: I have a Game of Thrones monopoly.

John: Oh, okay.

Michael: I also saw the longest game of Monopoly, which is a double board.

John: Holy cow.

Michael: Yeah.

John: A double board. Oh, my.

Michael: It’s a world record of playing it.

John: Yeah, that would take forever. That would take forever. That’s a lot of deals happening on the side. That’s crazy.

Michael: I’m going to give you a couple of more games me and my brother have played. Uno or Spades.

John: I’m going to go Spades, I think. Yeah, because you can play with a regular deck, which is more common, and, yeah, it’s old school. Yeah, I’m going to go Spades on that. Yeah, for sure.

Michael: Okay, and we’ve also been in the physical fitness. Push-ups or sit-ups.

John: Ice cream and cake? No, I was kidding. I’ll say push-ups. I’ll say push-ups because I feel like there’s a lot of ab work when you’re doing the push-ups too because you’re kind of planking, so it’s a little bit of both.

Michael: Full body workout.

John: Yeah, yeah. I’ll say push-ups. Not how many I can do, but I’ll say push-ups.

Michael: We’ll leave that for the next podcast.

John: Right. Exactly.

Michael: Last one for you, of all the hobbies that you have learned about, because listening to your show, I’ve even thought about like, man, maybe one day, I want to pick up motocross or some of the other hobbies. Has there any that you picked up, especially during the pandemic, that you’re like, I’ll give this a try?

John: Yeah, so I — not because of anyone that I talked to on the podcast, but I picked up rowing during the pandemic, mostly because of an efficiency thing. I hate running. Every time I run, my brain is literally like, here’s 1000 things you should be doing instead. Rowing, in 20 minutes, you can get an intense row in. It’s full body, and it’s a great workout. You get your heart rate up, and it’s 20 minutes. It’s like, well, I’ve got that, type of thing. Plus, it’s kind of fun. You can get a video up on the computer, and it feels like you’re rowing in nature or whatever. Yeah, I picked up rowing. It’s something I never thought I’d ever do or ever thought of doing or cared to do, but yeah, pretty much for health reasons and just pandemic, it was like, might as well, why not? Rowing, man, that’s the new one for me. I wouldn’t quite put it on an “and” level because if you were like, hey, you can’t row anymore; I’d be like, all right, that’s fine. It’s not quite a passion, type of thing, but it’s a hobby outside of work, for sure. That’s a good question, man. That’s a good question, for sure. That’s awesome, man. Well, thank you so much, Michael, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? and for, yeah, just being a cool professional and shattering that stereotype of people have an outside-of-work interest. Thanks, man.

Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Michael outside of work or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 439 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. It goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture, and I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and listening to it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Chris Hervochon. He’s a virtual CFO for marketing and creative agencies and was listed as a 40 Under 40 by CPA Practice Advisor, and now he’s with me here today. Chris, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Chris: Absolutely. Thanks for having me on.

John: Yeah, this is going to be awesome, so much fun. I play golf too, so this is going to be super sweet. You’re way better than me, but so is everybody else.

Chris: I don’t know about that.

John: Well, we’ll see. We’ll see. I have some rapid-fire questions for you though. Get to know Chris on a new level here. Maybe start you out with Star Wars or Star Trek.

Chris: Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. Yeah, me too. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Chris: PC.

John: PC. Yeah, me too. Yeah, I don’t even know how Macs work. I’m not even going to lie.

Chris: Neither do I.

John: If you put me in front of them, I would feel Amish.

Chris: I know. I feel ashamed to say it though.

John: Right? They have this cool club or something, this perception thing.

Chris: Yep, and I’m not in it.

John: Right. Well, me, either. How about jeans or khakis?

Chris: Jeans.

John: Jeans. Yeah, yeah. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Chris: Probably gotta go cake batter, I think.

John: Oh, okay. Nice. That’s a good one. Because it’s ice cream, but your brain thinks it tastes like cake. It’s like all the desserts. That’s a good one. How about more talk or text?

Chris: Text.

John: Text. Okay, all right. How about, ooh, this is a good one, balance sheet or income statement?

Chris: Balance sheet. That’s where the bodies get buried.

John: That’s awesome. Ooh, this is a fun one. How about a first concert?

Chris: Cold, the rock band.

John: Nice. Okay. Very cool. How about a favorite number?

Chris: Four.

John: Four. Is there a reason?

Chris: Yeah. When I started, I think, it was tee-ball, we were picking out jerseys out of the box. This was back in the ‘80s. We were picking the jerseys out of the box. My dad goes, “When I was — I think he said he played little league or whatever. He said, “I was number four.” I said, “Well, I want to be number four,” and then I was always number four.

John: There you go. That’s awesome. Very cool. How about books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Chris: Real book but I mostly consume the audio version.

John: Yeah, I didn’t realize how many people do the audio version until when my book came out last year. People are like, when’s the audio version? I’m like, oh, I didn’t realize that there was a demand for this. It’s out now. It’s out now. How about a favorite day of the week?

Chris: Friday.

John: Friday. All right. Nice. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw?

Chris: Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw. I think crossword.

John: Crossword. Okay. All right. There you go.

Chris: Tough call.

John: Yeah, it’s a tough call. Yeah. You could probably do them all at the same time. How about a favorite color?

Chris: Blue.

John: Blue. Yeah, me too. How about a least favorite color?

Chris: Brown.

John: Brown. Yeah, that’s a good one. It just sounds sad.

Chris: Yeah, there’s nothing really fun about brown, my opinion.

John: Right. It’s only there so then the color looks good, better.

Chris: Exactly.

John: Ooh, this is a good one. Since you’re a golfer, irons or woods.

Chris: Irons.

John: Irons. There you go.

Chris: You should have asked me 15 years ago. That would have been different.

John: Right. There you go. A favorite actor or actress.

Chris: Favorite actor, probably Brad Pitt.

John: Brad Pitt.

Chris: Fight Club’s my favorite movie.

John: Oh, yeah. There you go. First rule, there you go.

Chris: That’s right.

John: That’s exactly it. That’s a great movie. Two more. Chocolate or vanilla.

Chris: Vanilla.

John: Vanilla. There you go. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Chris: Favorite thing that I have is probably my book collection.

John: Oh, really? Okay. You have lots and lots of books.

Chris: I’ve got a lot of books. I’m one of those guys that’s got a stock in the nightstand that’s three feet tall that I just pick at, from time to time, that sort of thing.

John: Okay.

Chris: That’s probably my favorite thing. Close second would be my truck.

John: Oh, okay, there you go. What kind of books? Are they mostly self-help business kind of books or fiction, or what kind?

Chris: Either self-help business type books or golf books.

John: Oh, okay. There you go. That’s awesome. Either way, it’s helping something.

Chris: It’s trying to. I don’t know how successful it’s been.

John: Right? That’s true. I’m sure the next book will help even more. That’ll be the one that puts you over the top. That’ll be… Right?

Chris: Guaranteed.

John: That’s incredible. That leads right into golf. How did you get started with that? Is it something that you were playing since you were little?

Chris: I started when I was, I want to say I was 11, yeah, 11. I was born in ‘84. Tiger Woods turned pro in ‘96 when I turned 12. That’s the frame of reference there.

John: Right. Okay.

Chris: I was 11, and we had a new driving range open that was down the street from my house where I grew up in New Jersey. My grandmother and my mom took me there. It was my grandmother’s idea. Took me there one day, hit a bucket of balls, loved it. My grandfather played golf ball when I was growing up, and my dad played a little bit. He dabbled, I would say, and just went from there. I spent a lot of time at the range, got some lessons and played a little bit with my dad. The guy who was the head pro at the driving range, he just really liked to help kids out. If you showed up at the range, and you wanted to hit balls, he would give you as many golf balls as you were willing to hit, one of those —

John: That’s awesome.

Chris: Yeah, it was awesome because it was six or seven bucks a bucket at that point. I was 11 or 12. I didn’t have any money. He was just really good to a lot of kids, a lot of my friends. You just got to hang out there, one of those keep you out of trouble type deals. Theoretically, it worked, I guess. Right?

John: Right. We’re talking.

Chris: Yeah, we’re talking, so I guess it worked.

John: Yeah, that’s similar when I started. Because my dad was in the military, all the bases have awesome golf courses. It’s, I guess, just what they do. That’s where our tax dollars are going, in case anyone wonders. Luckily, I had that resource, but, yeah, my grandpa played a lot more. Whenever we’d visit there, he was a member of a small country club sort of thing, and it was fun to — yeah, because these are people you look up to, and it’s something they enjoy, so then it’s cool to do something that they enjoy too.

Chris: Absolutely.

John: Yeah, that’s awesome.

Chris: It wasn’t cool when I started. I was like this closet golf nerd a little bit. Then Tiger Woods turns pro. Tiger Woods is cool. Golf is cool now. Now my friends are playing.

John: Oh, okay.

Chris: Yeah, it was a perfect storm. It kind of snowballed from there.

John: Yeah, well, Tiger, certainly, he made it awesome. It was fun to watch. He was young and energetic and had some attitude and some swagger, for sure. It’s amazing to watch one person just dominate. It’s crazy because everyone else that he’s beating is really, really good.

Chris: For sure.

John: Yeah. It’s hard to remember that sometimes, when you watch a Michael Jordan or Tiger or something like that, where it’s like, wow, that is crazy amazing. Then it went on. You played in college even, so obviously, you stayed with it.

Chris: I did. Played in high school, all four years, started on varsity, my last three years, and then I decided I wanted to play Division One golf and didn’t really get recruited to play Division One golf, so I went to a school that had walk-ons, open tryouts for golf. That’s Elon in North Carolina. Didn’t make it my freshman year, made it my sophomore year, and I played briefly. I played my sophomore year, and I red-shirted my junior year. When I got out of college, I turned pro, had no business turning pro. It was a brief moment in time as well. Now here I am.

John: Yeah, that’s super cool though, just to give it a shot. Why not? That’s incredible, man. Congrats. That’s really cool, the dedication and the work. The swing’s one thing, but the mindset has got to be something that’s the biggest differentiator for a lot of those players, I would imagine.

Chris: Yeah, that’s the biggest thing, right? Everybody can hit it really good. Everybody can putt it pretty good. It’s just whether or not you’ve got it between the ears to be able to shoot really low scores when you really have to.

John: Yeah, which is amazing. Plus, when you play in college, you get some pretty sweet free gear. There’s that.

Chris: It’s amazing how that works. Yeah, I remember getting my duffel bag just full, clothes and all that stuff. I always had really good deals on equipment. Now I’m paying retail, and it’s awful. Free golf balls. Now you’re buying them. Four bucks a ball, you hit it in the water. Well, there goes four bucks. It’s a totally different mindset.

John: Yeah, the accountant in you comes out there. It’s like, no, I don’t want to be — I should have done a Literature major or something that isn’t good at Math.

Chris: I guess I better lay this one up.

John: Right. I’d like to get lunch after this. That’s hilarious. That’s awesome, man. Do you have any really cool, rewarding stories that when you think back of your golf play, or even now, obviously you play now, some of your favorite courses or a fun memory?

Chris: I’ve got a lot of fun memories, so that’s really hard. Best memory is probably making the team in college because I didn’t make it my freshman year. I was in no man’s land, from a golf perspective. Just being able to prove myself, hey, I can go out, and I can play Division One college golf, whether it was briefly, super brief or not, that was an accomplishment unto itself. When I graduated college, I couldn’t break 80, which was totally crazy. My dad did not tell me I was crazy. He told me, you’ll know when you go broke, and you’ve got that Accounting degree. Here we are. I went from not being able to break 80, to being a +2 handicap in the span of a summer. I made a very, very small amount of money, but it was not zero. That’s an accomplishment unto itself. It’s not the PGA Tour or anything like that, but it was a small win.

John: That’s the thing is a lot of us, we compare to others, a lot of times. It’s like, just in your own lane. That’s amazing, man. You made money playing golf. That’s crazy. Everyone listening would cut off an arm to do that, and then they wouldn’t play any more golf. It’s just so cool to do that, and even, it just brings you joy. Even today, it does, so it’s all good. That’s awesome. I would imagine that you’ve gotten to play some pretty cool courses, over the years. Do you have a go-to favorite?

Chris: My favorite is The Ocean Course at Kiawah. In fact, I’m playing there in three weeks. Yeah, that’s a great spot, an absolutely great spot. I live in Hilton Head, which is not that far from Kiawah, and I was able to go to the PGA Championship this year. Took my son, and we were staying there on the 18th Green when Phil won. He was sitting on my shoulders. He got to see the whole thing.

John: That’s awesome.

Chris: Yeah. That’s just one of those cool experiences that you get from being involved in that world. It was really cool stuff.

John: Yeah. Plus, now, you’re sharing it with your son, the same way that your grandfather and father shared it with you. That’s pretty special, man. That’s pretty special. That’s awesome. Do you feel like, from playing golf or all the adversity that you’ve overcome to continue playing in college and pro and whatever, do you feel like that gives you a skill set the translates to your career?

Chris: I do, shockingly enough. Part of it is just that entrepreneurial endeavor of being used to just putting yourself out there and trying to figure out a way to make money, which, I started my own firm and started from nothing. That’s that same mindset. There’s certainly a skill set that goes along with that. When I was playing golf competitively, I was one of these guys that really had to hit 600 golf balls a day. I was the one out there with all the training aids and trying to perfect my golf swing and figure things out and do it in the most efficient way possible. I’ve been doing that for 25 years, but that has definitely translated over into the accounting world where I started building ways to automate things and putting controls in place, to put quality control guardrails around the work that we put out. It’s always trying to be more efficient. Those two things have definitely correlated over, and just that mindset that came from golf and applying that to my firm, that’s been a direct correlation.

John: Yeah, and that mental toughness. When times get hard, and it’s a busy season or a big project, there’s overtime or whatever; you’re able to buckle down and dig a little deeper because you’ve been through that before on the golf course. It’s just a different muscle set, but you’re like, well, I’ve done this before in a different way. It’s amazing because I’m sure that at no point at Elon did anyone tell you, go practice golf a lot because it’ll make you a better virtual CFO and accountant. It’s just cool to see how much our “ands” translate to our work even accidentally.

Chris: For sure.

John: Is this something that you talk about through your career, your golf, how excited you are when you’re taking a golf trip or things like that?

Chris: Through my career, I have, for sure, especially my last job. My boss played. He’s still a friend. We go out, and we play golf every once in a while. The first accounting job I got, I got because I was a good golfer, not because I had any sort of accounting skill set.

John: There you go.

Chris: Yeah, I went to the interview, and they’re like you, “You have no experience. You didn’t do any internships in college.” The partner of the firm walks in. He goes, “So you’re a golfer.” I said, “Yep.” He goes, “Okay. Did they talk salary with you yet?”

John: Nice.

Chris: Yeah.

John: Nice. Right?

Chris: Yeah. He really likes golf. From his perspective, he’s like, well, this is somebody who can go and take — because we had a client base who, a lot of golfers, right?

John: Sure.

Chris: It didn’t seem like it to me at the time. I didn’t understand it at the time, but looking back, oh, this is somebody who can go take clients out to go play golf, go bring extra work in, and it’ll basically pay for himself. It’s the way that it worked out. That’s how I got, basically, my start in accounting was just because I was a good golfer.

John: I’ve heard that from so many people on that’s how I got my first job or my first internship was because of my “and”, whether it was somebody I met doing it, or during the interview, it came up, it was on my resume, whatever. That’s why when I hear from people, they’re like, oh, I don’t want to share it; I’m like, well, you’re missing out. I’m telling you. I have so many stories of people that — because they can teach you the technical side of things, but your personality and who you are and the other dimensions to Chris, you can’t teach that stuff.

Chris: 100%.

John: Yeah, and we forget that so much. It’s cool to hear that you’re also one of those. That’s great. Yeah, that’s awesome. I imagine that coworkers or people like your old boss, you have a relationship with them that’s maybe a little bit different than everybody else that worked in the office because you shared that passion.

Chris: 100%. Absolutely. When you get to go spend four hours, four or five hours, with somebody in a golf course, and it’s not in a professional setting, and it’s just a little bit more relaxed, and you can be a little bit more candid with what you’re talking about and how you’re talking and things like that; it’s a totally different relationship than when it’s just you walk into the boss’s office and you’re presenting something, or you’re going there with a problem or whatever. It’s just a totally different relationship.

John: Yeah, that’s a great point. Because it’s such a big deal to get out of the office because then you just become a different person. When you’re doing your “and” and they love it too, then, yeah, you just get into the real who you are mode. That’s when magic happens. That’s a good point, man.

Chris: That’s how you relate. If you work in a workspace where nobody has the same “and”, and it’s all different, and you can’t relate to those people; it’s just one more thing that you have to overcome. It just makes it more difficult because I’ve been in that position too.

John: Yeah, or places where they don’t even allow you to share it, or they don’t care, or they really stifle it. Because I found, no one else I knew did comedy, that’s for sure, but yet, people still asked about it and wanted to hear about it. Even if it’s not exactly the same thing as you, at least, it’s cool and interesting. If there’s nothing, there’s just nothing, then that’s when it’s just, woo. I’ve walked into some clients when I’m doing some consulting work to help them with the culture. I’ll walk in and be like, wow, this is crazy. No one looks you in the eye, and it’s gray. There’s not even color. There’s no air. Oh, my gosh, we’ve got some work to do here.

Chris: Crazy that places like that still exist.

John: Right? People come here voluntarily and work.

Chris: On purpose, yeah, every day.

John: It’s crazy. It really is. You’re there more waking hours than you are with your family. Why would you not want to make it a pleasant experience? It’s really, really crazy. How much do you feel like it’s on an organization to create that space, to we want to know about your “and” and we want to know and share it; versus, how much is it on the individual to maybe just start in their little circle or what have you?

Chris: I think it’s got to be on the organization because if you’re not creating that environment, where it’s okay to share and where it’s okay to be yourself, then you’re creating something else that’s toxic. If you have a small group of people, and it’s just this little group, and then they’re seen as outsiders, we can’t talk to them because we’re not the same or whatever, and it gets very cliquish; that’s a problem too. I think it’s on the organization. That’s just my opinion. I think it’s on the organization to create an environment where that’s okay. You can bring your whole self to work.

John: Yeah. I agree totally. It makes it a whole lot easier, a whole lot easier. It’s not impossible, the other way, but it can get weird.

Chris: Yeah, for sure.

John: Back on my career, I guess I’ve been living this on accident since I started. Because when people say to you, what did you do this weekend, I didn’t know you were supposed to say nothing.

Chris: Yeah.

John: It’s like, yeah, I did nothing. It’s like, well, I drove to the city and did a comedy show. Or I went here and played this awesome golf course. There are follow-up questions to that. It’s cool, and it’s fun, and I’ll talk about this all day, type of thing. If they create that sandbox for you to play in, then, like you said, put up the guardrails and then go nuts, everybody. We live in such a permission-based profession, I guess, and world that we’re waiting for them to tell us we’re allowed to, instead of just go do it, man. What are you waiting for?

Chris: Absolutely. What do you do if you don’t understand where your coworkers are coming from, and you’ve got a work problem that you’ve got to solve together? You don’t understand their perspective. How do you work together collaboratively and do a good job? I don’t get it.

John: Right? No, you’re exactly right. Because when you hear people’s stories, how they got here, even some of their why, that, it’s amazing. You’re like, leave early, get the hell out of here, go help your family or your kid or whatever it is that’s going on in your life. Yet, we put up these facades, I guess, of acting like we’re — which, in the last year and a half, has been blown up because we’re all at our own homes now. For the most part now, obviously, it’s shifting. Yeah. A lot of your work has to be virtual, I would imagine, with some of your clients.

Chris: 100%, virtual.

John: Is relying on that “and” how you create that connection?

Chris: Yeah. I’ve been doing Zoom calls since I went full time with my firm. It’s been a little bit over three years at this point. Just ask people, how are you doing? What’s new? What’s up?

John: Yeah. Right?

Chris: Yeah, just start there. It’s really simple. Then, like you said, the follow-up questions come from that.

John: Yeah, it really is, it’s so simple, and yet we don’t think of doing that. Genuinely asking it. Obviously, that’s what you meant. Don’t check a box. Well, I’m supposed to ask you how you’re doing. Okay. Anyway.

Chris: No, no, no, no, no, no. Ask the question and then actively listen, and shut up and pay attention.

John: Right. Right. It’s really that simple. It really is.

Chris: Yeah, it doesn’t have to be any harder than that. Over time, you create these relationships. It’s not going to happen in one-hour Zoom call, and just automatically, you’re besties now. You’ve got to show up consistently. You’ve got to ask the question consistently. You’ve got to ask really good, solid questions that show that you’re listening and show yourself that you’re listening, and then it just develops over time. When you get a chance to go visit with somebody, make it a point to go visit with them. When you get a chance to do something with your team somewhere else — my team is totally distributed. We went to engage a couple of months ago.

John: Oh, yeah.

Chris: Make sure that you’re having those times when you can be present and together because that is different, too. That’s important too, but you can develop relationships over a video conference.

John: Yeah, you just have to set time aside for the relationship part of it.

Chris: Yep, just be intentional.

John: Yeah, that’s exactly it, man. That’s awesome. That’s so good and such great advice for everybody listening, a perfect way to wrap it up actually. It’s only fair though, before I do close the show, that I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, so I feel like it’s only fair that we turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Chris Hervochon podcast. Thanks for having me on. I’m all yours. Whatever you’ve got for me, fire away.

Chris: All right, I’ve got three for you, easy ones.

John: Okay.

Chris: Hot or cold.

John: I’m going to say cold only because hot just gets gross. You can put more layers on, but you can’t remove more. Once you’re down to nothing, and it’s still gross, man.

Chris: You’re probably in jail, in most places.

John: Right. Right. I guess maybe it’s humidity. That’s what I figured out. It’s humidity is the curse for me, so I’ll say cold.

Chris: Fair enough. Favorite sport that isn’t college football.

John: Oh, wow. That’s a hard one. I’ll probably say soccer.

Chris: Okay.

John: Yeah, I grew up playing soccer a lot, and I still enjoy watching.

Chris: Oh, no.

John: — HBO or whatever you’ve got to pay for, or Apple something. Yeah, which we touched on earlier, I’m not cool enough to do anything Apple. I’m going to have to wait till it’s on some bootleg something or whatever, Netflix.

Chris: Not that you would ever bootleg.

John: Right, right. Well, I’ve heard it’s hilarious.

Chris: Now the last one, favorite non-major holiday.

John: Favorite non-major holiday, I’m going to go Tax Day because it’s also my birthday, April 15th, so be a little selfish there on that one.

Chris: Fair enough.

John: Yeah, when you’re born on April 15th, I think being a CPA is your destiny on accident. Although, similar to your pro-golf, I had no business being a CPA. No, just kidding. No, no. It was all good, all good. Thank you so much, Chris. It’s been so much fun to have you be a part of What’s Your “And”?

Chris: Likewise. Thanks for having me on. This was a really fun time.

John: Absolutely, and everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Chris out on the links or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 435 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, me, this voice reading What’s Your “And”?, look for it on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture, and I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Ben Babu. He’s a hospital medicine physician at Good Sam Hospital in New York City, and now he’s with me here today. Ben, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Ben: Oh, thank you, John. Thanks for having me.

John: Yeah, absolutely, man. This is going to be so awesome. I have some rapid-fire questions though. It’s kind of fun to ask the doctor a question for once because normally it’s the other way around, so this will be fun. Let’s start you out with an easy one. Favorite color.

Ben: Blue.

John: Blue. Mine too. Solid. All right, how about a least favorite color?

Ben: Black.

John: Black. Interesting. Okay. All right. How about, since you live in New York, got to ask, rain or snow?

Ben: Rain.

John: Rain. Okay. All right. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Ben: Tom Cruise.

John: Tom Cruise. Solid answer. There you go. How about a favorite day of the week?

Ben: Friday.

John: Friday. Nice. There you go.

Ben: Hands down, Friday.

John: Right. There you go. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw?

Ben: Jigsaw.

John: Jigsaw. There you go. Nice, going old school. How about a chocolate or vanilla?

Ben: Chocolate.

John: Chocolate. All right. All right. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Ben: Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. Yeah, me too. Me too, on that one. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac guy?

Ben: Mac.

John: Mac. Yeah. I am not cool enough for that, so, good for you. Since you’re in New York, how about favorite toppings on a pizza?

Ben: I like sausage and pepperoni.

John: Okay, there you go. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Ben: Rocky road.

John: Oh, nice. Okay. There you go. How about more of a talk or text?

Ben: Talk.

John: Talk. Yeah, me too. Totally. How about your first concert?

Ben: First concert, wow. That was Bon Jovi.

John: Nice. There you go .

Ben: Shows you my age though.

John: No, no. There was someone else that had Bon Jovi. Maybe you guys went to the same one. That’ll be awesome. All right, we’ve got four more, four more. Do you have a favorite number?

Ben: Six.

John: Six. Is there a reason?

Ben: No.

John: No? All right.

Ben: It comes up random all the time.

John: Okay. There you go. Maybe you’re on the six train. Who knows? How about books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Ben: The audio version.

John: Oh, okay.

Ben: I listen to it on my car radio.

John: Yeah, that’s a good idea. Yeah, there you go. Do you prefer more hot or cold?

Ben: Hot.

John: Hot. Okay. All right. The last one is the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Ben: My mountain bike.

John: Oh, okay. What kind of mountain bike is it?

Ben: I have this Trek mountain bike where I use, to go, and I ride across the East River and loop around to Battery Park and go up to the west side, beautiful view.

John: Oh, yeah.

Ben: Yeah, especially during the spring and the summer, everybody’s out, hustle bustle.

John: Very cool, man. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. Yeah, well, let’s talk photography. Next time we’ll do mountain biking, but photography, I love that. How did you get started with that? Was it something you grew up taking a lot of pictures, or you got into later in life?

Ben: Yeah, John, it’s an excellent question, man. I started with photography because my dad used to do photography as a child. He had this little Minolta old school film camera that was sitting in his bedroom, so I used to toy around with it when I was a little kid. Ever since then, I was just taking photos of the family, weddings. My dad bought me some gear, and he’s like, all right, son, go ahead take the photos of the wedding. I’m holding all the gear, and he’s sitting in the back having fun. I’m taking everyone’s group shots. It just grew out of there, man. Everybody was just like, all right, Ben’s coming. Okay, he’s a photographer now. He’s going to take some shots and have a good time.

John: That’s awesome, man. Your dad just did it as a hobby?

Ben: He did it as a hobby, yeah. He collected a little bit of cameras, a few cameras, so I grew up with it. I’m like, this looks pretty cool, man. What is this thing?

John: Right. It’s magic. You can capture, yeah. I have a nephew that, a couple of years ago, got him a digital thing that does videos and pictures. He was just like, yeah, it’s just cool to see the magic in a kid’s face when they realize what they can do with that.

Ben: Right, especially with the film because then you get to tinker around in the darkroom.

John: Oh, so you actually process the film yourself.

Ben: I process it myself, yes.

John: Wow. That’s incredible.

Ben: It’s interesting.

John: Yeah. Was there any events that were your favorite ones or ones that come to mind that stand out?

Ben: It was mostly the weddings because, John, these weddings were like three or four days long, so I really got my training in. I’ll tell you that. The equipment back then were just like the old school IBM supercomputers. You know how huge those were.

John: Oh, yeah, right, right.

Ben: Those cameras were not small, man. Those things are good workout, too.

John: That’s funny. You’re good at photography, and you became really strong at the same time.

Ben: Right. Right. My right arm was bigger than the left. My bicep was bigger.

John: Right. I am the strongest kid in school. How did that happen? That’s awesome, man. That’s neat. Was it this Minolta camera all the way through, or did you upgrade at some point?

Ben: Yeah. It was the Minolta. I still have it actually, believe it or not.

John: Nice.

Ben: Yeah. Then I upgraded to a Nikon, a bigger full frame camera.

John: Sure. Yeah. That’s cool.

Ben: Yeah. It’s smaller too.

John: Right. That’s pretty cool, man. As far as now, though, are you still like taking time to take pictures, and it’s still a part of what you do?

Ben: Yeah, John. I belong to this photography club in the city. They’re pretty active. We meet once a week, and we go out and do these these hunts. We were in Rockefeller Center the other day, and we took shots there. Also, they had the Pier 55 which just opened up on the Hudson a few months ago. We explored that. It was beautiful. They had concerts and venues for people and their music.

John: That’s awesome, man.

Ben: I don’t know why, but it was picture perfect.

John: Pun intended. Pun intended.

Ben: Exactly.

John: That’s cool because then you’re learning from each other and getting shots and seeing what people are doing.

Ben: Right.

John: Yeah, you just lift your game. One day, you should just show up with that Minolta and just see what happens.

Ben: I know. I’ll probably get a line out there trying to figure out what the hell that contraption was.

John: Right. Right. Which button do you push? How do you? What? How do you?

Ben: It’s something that Jeff Bezos can use on the moon.

John: Right. Exactly. That’s cool, man. That’s super awesome. Is this something that you talk about with colleagues or patients? Does it come up at work at all?

Ben: It does actually. I have a group of patients that we just randomly chat about. One person that I know, he’s like, oh, yeah, Dr. Babu, I’m going to Tanzania. They do photography out there in October, and they’re going with a group. It was a good conversation piece. I was like, yeah, this is great. I want to go to Tanzania, but I can’t get time off.

John: Right. Right.

Ben: I didn’t tell him that. I was like, okay, maybe I’ll go next time.

John: Right. Yeah, exactly. That is cool that it comes up because sometimes, people are like, oh, well, this has nothing to do with medicine or why you’re here or whatever. Clearly, there’s some rapport that’s developed through that.

Ben: For sure. Yeah. It helps connect with all the patients. They see a human side of myself, so I establish a bond with them.

John: Yeah, that’s super huge. Probably something that didn’t come up during medical school was, hey, go do photography because it’ll allow you to create a better bond with your patients. Right?

Ben: Right. No, no, that was definitely not on the schedule, I’ll tell you. I wish it was. I wish it was.

John: Right. Other books that were much bigger and longer to read involved with that. How about skill-wise, is there any any skill set that comes from photography, that translates over to medicine?

Ben: Just like any skill set that you do, whether it’s math or reading poetry, it spills over to work. Photography actually gives me the ability to have a photographic eye in general, at work too. I’m able to read CAT scans and put it in context, to patients, in real time. When I look at all the images, I come back and talk to the patient. I know, hey, look, your gallbladder popped. I know exactly what the problem is and how it looks because I looked it on the image. This is how it looks. I paint them a picture. So, it helps with the conversation and how to describe it too.

John: Right, because I never realized until now, being a doctor, you’re looking at a lot of pictures.

Ben: Oh, yes, yes, yes, pneumonia, COVID, X-ray.

John: Right? Yeah, just all kinds of images that you’re looking at. Having that eye, I would imagine, in return, that makes your photography better also because it’s just exercising that muscle group that then one side’s helping the other in both ways.

Ben: Yeah. It really helps with that creative side of things, especially when talking to patients. It gives you that human side of things, like photography and trips because I usually marry both of them. I do travel photography, so we end up talking about the trips that I take, and then we share moments and stuff. It’s nice.

John: Yeah, that’s awesome. Now that there are smartphones, it’s just like, here’s a picture. You can just show them. You don’t have to act like, I’ll bring one next time or whatever, like in the old days.

Ben: Right. Right. Everybody’s got a professional camera on them. For sure. It doesn’t sound, the interviews don’t sound robotic. It just has natural flow to it. With the small talk, it really gives us the ability to get to know everyone on a much deeper level, believe it or not.

John: Which it’s so awesome to hear because so many people feel like, well, we’re here for work, get the work done, do the work, talk about work. Anything besides that doesn’t belong. I love how you said that, that actually, it enhances everything, the small talk and the rapport and the non-work talk specifically, which is cool.

Ben: Definitely. It’s like the glue.

John: It’s the glue.

Ben: It’s the glue. You need it. Otherwise, everything falls apart.

John: That’s so profound, and it’s something that, unfortunately, we’re not really taught. It’s not our default mode either, for some reason. In our brains, we default to the other side usually, and it’s like, ah, man. Something that’s that important, it’s like, man, they should be teaching this.

Ben: Yeah, for sure. My brain works better if I do some of the creative stuff and then blend it with the technical and analytic side of medicine, the art aspect of it, the right side of the brain.

John: Right? Yeah, both sides of the brain go, and that’s even better. How much do you feel like, I don’t even know. You’re actually the first medical professional I’ve had on the show, so this is groundbreaking. How much do hospitals or organizations encourage people sharing those outside-of-work interests? Or how much is it on the individual to just maybe start that conversation themselves in a small circle?

Ben: Well, most of it is starting it yourself. Once the hospital finds an interest, they have venues. Some hospitals that I used to work with, they have these photography challenges, where you’re able to present your photography. Whoever was a photographer, they’re able to showcase their photographs. At the end, there would be a challenge where they would put it into the display of the hospital. There was one hospital that was doing that. I felt that that was really nice because it gave the ability to have the creative aspect of medicine, which is not usually seen, and there was a lot of people that entered the competition, including myself. I saw that other side of them, which I never knew existed. I work with them every day, but then when you see the artistic talent that they have, it’s another game. It’s another world.

John: Yeah, there’s another dimension to them as a person that you just unlock. It’s like, what?

Ben: Yeah, exactly.

John: Yeah, and there’s a lot more follow-up questions and more interesting conversation, I would imagine, around the photography. It’s something, even though you guys shared in common, even if you didn’t, it’s still a cool conversation piece.

Ben: Yeah, it’s really cool. I think it’s one good way to bond with people.

John: Yeah, and I love that the organization created that. That’s such an easy example for people to do, especially at a larger company. You’ve got enough people there that like photography, trust me. Just throw this out there and see what happens. There was once I did, for PricewaterhouseCoopers office, they were doing a PwC’s Got Talent kind of show.

Ben: Nice.

John: Thing for their promotion day, big thing. I was hosting it, and the office, one of the people was like, well, I don’t know how many people we’re going to get. I was like, well, you guys have over a thousand people. I bet you have 800 people that like to do something. There’s something there. It’s just, we don’t think about that people have those things because we don’t ask, or we don’t create that space. When you create that space, all of a sudden, there’s all this cool color and life, all of a sudden, around you.

Ben: It is pretty amazing when you see people opening up and doing stuff that’s outside of work. It really is nice because it adds that extra dimension, like you said. It makes the relationship much better, and I would advocate it. Most hospitals do something with little music and food, and especially this photography session they do once a year at one of the hospitals, so I look forward to it every year.

John: That’s the thing, you look forward to it. There’s some energy there where the all-staff meeting that’s every month, sometimes I don’t look forward to that. It’s just happening. Imagine if there were stuff like that for everybody. That’s super cool. Before I wrap this up, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that feels like, hey, I’ve got this hobby, but it has nothing to do with my job, or no one cares?

Ben: Yeah, John. The thing is, we all have a certain passion in our life, and a gift that was given to us to drive that passion. To go ahead and do that would be absolutely amazing. Take yourself as a human being to another level, and it will make work and work life and personal life so much more enriching and amazing. I would totally advocate that 100%, especially during the times when there’s a pandemic, when people are in different scenario, and it’s more of a mental health thing too, a total overall body kind of wellness. I totally advocate it. It’s something that would help with just everything, work like, personal relationships, really takes to another level.

John: Yeah. There you go, everybody, doctor’s orders. You’re so right. When I wrote the book, originally, it was creating relationships between colleagues and clients and patients and coworkers. Then, in the last year and a half or so, it’s become so much more of just mental wellness, just for your own sake, just not to lose your mind. Have a break. Have something to take your mind off of the work that’s at the kitchen table right there, all the time, type of thing, for a lot of us. It’s cool, man. That’s so encouraging. Well, since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, I feel like it’s only fair that I turn it around and make this the first episode of the Ben Babu podcast. Thanks for having me on.

Ben: It’s an amazing privilege. Thanks, John. Thanks for the question. What is the most interesting What’s Your “And”? that you’ve had on your show?

John: I get this question sometimes. They’re all interesting to me just because they’re all cool because they’re things I’m not doing. That’s always neat. There was Rebecca Berneck who was a motorcycle racer and has a consulting firm, but at one point, had the land speed record for vintage motorcycles on the Salt Flats in Utah.

Ben: Wow.

John: That’s pretty cool.

Ben: That’s really cool, yeah.

John: Yeah, there was a guy that did, he would custom design suits and have them made. It was full bespoke. He had a full-on side business going of bespoke suits, and would do that. Somebody else that volunteers a lot by going to the Caribbean Islands, and helping people with getting their small business started, and how to get financing, to get the literacy behind that. It’s just interesting how there’s something that lights somebody up. Just to hear them talk about that is just like, I talk to everybody at their best. You’re most excited to talk about photography. That’s when I get to talk to you, and it’s awesome. Yeah, so everybody’s actually been really cool. Even the woman that does a 5K walk once a year for charity, that’s also cool. Stained glass, that’s awesome. How many people do you know that do stained glass? I know one, and she was on the show.

Ben: Yes, that’s definitely cool.

John: Yeah, there’s all kinds. It doesn’t have to be just one thing, and it doesn’t even have to be active. It can be something that’s just on the side.

Ben: John, what is your “and”?

John: Oh, so my “and”, definitely college football while eating ice cream would definitely be pretty high on my list. Going to concerts is also super fun. Travel is also pretty nice. You can have more than one, for sure. They can also be ice cream, can definitely be an “and”, trust me. When it’s to the level that it is with me, it’s definitely a passion. That’s for sure.

Ben: It’s like ice cream and sprinkles and.

John: Right? There you go, and hot fudge.

Ben: And hot fudge, yes, yes.

John: One of those places in New York, when I lived there, they have those places where it’s soft serve. You weigh it after you put everything, and that’s how you pay. I was like, man. The first time I went there I was like, whoa. Then you learn. This is still sugary, but it doesn’t weigh as much, so let’s go with that one. Yeah, for sure, man. Well, I appreciate you being a part of this, Ben. Thank you so much for taking time to be on What’s Your “And”?

Ben: Hey, thank you, John.

John: Yeah, and everybody listening, if you want to see some of Ben’s pictures or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 433 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book, also called What’s Your “And”? on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for the book on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. It goes more in depth into the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture and also to your mental wellness. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Aimee Keenan. She’s the founder of the ISV Society, helping ISVs collaborate with each other, out of her office in Barrington, Rhode Island, and now she’s with me here today. Aimee, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Aimee: Thank you for having me, John. I’m excited to be here.

John: Oh, this is going to be so awesome. We’ve known each other for a while now and finally get you on the show. I’m super excited.

Aimee: Me too.

John: Yeah, I have rapid-fire questions, things I’ve never asked you before that I probably should have, now that I think about it.

Aimee: Bring it on.

John: Here we go. Here we go. All right, I’ll start you out with a pretty easy one here. How about a favorite color?

Aimee: Favorite color would be peach.

John: Peach. Okay, that’s a first, haven’t had that one. All right. How about a least favorite color?

Aimee: Brown.

John: Brown. All right. Yeah, that’s pretty popular. Just even the word sounds not fun. It’s just like, brown. How about cats or dogs?

Aimee: Dogs.

John: Dogs. Yeah, me too.

Aimee: I used to be a cat person, believe it or not. Grew up with cats, but four years ago, changed my life when I got a dog.

John: Oh, wow. There you go. See? How about a favorite day of the week?

Aimee: I would say Friday.

John: Friday. All right. There you go. How about a puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw?

Aimee: Definitely jigsaw.

John: Jigsaw. There you go. Yeah. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Aimee: If I had to go with one, I’d pick Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. Yeah. It’s the one that you know more about probably.

Aimee: Yes, by far.

John: Yeah. Computers, more of a PC or a Mac?

Aimee: Mac.

John: Mac. Oh, wow. Super cool. Yeah. I’m PC. I don’t even know how to turn a Mac on. Is there a button? I don’t know. Do you just look at it?

Aimee: There is a button actually.

John: Oh, okay. I figured you just tell it, turn on, and then it turns on. Or it reads your mind.

Aimee: I wish it did.

John: Yeah. Right? That’s the next version. Ooh, here’s a good one, diamonds or pearls.

Aimee: Diamonds are a girl’s best friend. You’ve got to pick diamonds.

John: Right? They certainly cornered the market with that phrase. That’s for sure. How about a favorite ice cream flavor. I love ice cream.

Aimee: Cookie dough.

John: Solid answer. There we go. There we go. Yep, get as many chunks in there as possible.

Aimee: Exactly.

John: Yeah, yeah. Ooh, talk or text.

Aimee: I feel like talking is better, especially with COVID and everything. Text is just. You guys could be on the phone.

John: The tone is completely lost, and this is going to go back and forth for 10 minutes, where it could have been 30 seconds on a phone.

Aimee: Yes.

John: I agree. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Aimee: Well, I’d have to go with Robert Downey Jr. because I’m a huge Iron Man fan. He’s just come a long way over the years and overcome a ton of obstacles and just really came around and became a really great actor, I think.

John: Yeah, and person.

Aimee: Yeah.

John: For sure.

Aimee: He’s just an amazing person. Yeah.

John: Yeah. No, totally, I totally hear you on that one. How about chocolate or vanilla?

Aimee: Dark chocolate.

John: Dark chocolate. Okay. Very specific. Very specific. This one’s probably a slam dunk living in Rhode Island, but oceans or mountains.

Aimee: Oh, definitely oceans.

John: That’s what I was going to say. How about your first concert?

Aimee: My first concert was Bon Jovi.

John: Nice. There you go. That’s awesome. Very cool.

Aimee: I had to think about that. I was probably ten.

John: The original Bon Jovi.

Aimee: Yeah.

John: The not dying his hair blonde.

Aimee: Outside concerts, it was outside and everything.

John: Right. There you go. How about a favorite number?

Aimee: I don’t really have a favorite number, but I will go with three.

John: Three? All right. Was there a reason?

Aimee: Well, they say bad things happen in threes, but I want to say good things happen in threes.

John: Okay.

Aimee: Just change that.

John: Yeah, I like that. I like that. Two more. How about books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Aimee: It depends on the book, I think. If I want to make notes and highlight and write things down, then I like hardcover, but if it’s just for reading purposes, fun only, then Kindle all the way for that.

John: Okay. Yeah. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Aimee: Favorite thing I have. I’m a collector of Disney snow globes. I have a ton of those.

John: Is there one that’s your favorite?

Aimee: I have one that’s probably the most rarest is the Steamboat Willie one.

John: Oh, wow. That’s super old school. Yeah. That’s awesome. That’ll be your Follow-Up Friday. We’ll talk about snow globes. You can’t hide behind this fitness nonsense. I want to hear about snow globes.

Aimee: Sure.

John: That’s super cool. That’s awesome. Let’s talk health and fitness and all that funness. How did that get started? I’m sure, as a kid, you’d had to do president physical fitness test and all that nonsense. After that, you become an adult. If you’re like me, you just stop.

Aimee: It all started with running, believe it or not. When the kids were younger, and all I could afford was some running shoes, then I took the streets and just ran every day. I ended up doing a lot of races, mostly 5Ks. Then it morphed into other things. As I got older, I went into the gym, started doing spinning and classes. Then they offered this triathlon training. I’m like, oh, cool. Wouldn’t it be cool to do some sprint triathlons?

John: A sprint triathlon, that’s just shorter everything?

Aimee: Yeah. Basically, it’s a half a mile swim, 13-mile bike, and then a 5K run.

John: Okay, all right. This is now more my speed. I like it.

Aimee: Yeah. I could never do an Ironman or anything like that. Forget it.

John: Right. I’ve got other stuff to go do.

Aimee: It’s a lot of training, yes, it is, learning those three things.

John: Good for you. That’s really awesome that you just stepped up and were like, you know what, I’m going to do all three. That’s really cool.

Aimee: I think taking a class and learning the right, how to swim, the technique, all that stuff, learning how to change a bike tire because you could get a flat on your race, just things you never think of. They prepare you for all of that.

John: Okay. Yeah. What was it like when you were, I mean, I guess the training is the most of it, but doing the actual sprint triathlon, that had to feel pretty invigorating.

Aimee: Yes, it did. I did three my first year.

John: Wow. Okay, so it wasn’t like you did one and then retired.

Aimee: No.

John: You’re like, no. You got the bug.

Aimee: I did get the bug for a few years, but then I stopped.

John: Well, no, it’s completely understandable, but that’s awesome. That’s really cool. Were they mostly in the Northeast there?

Aimee: Yeah, I learned that I like swimming in a pool versus the ocean.

John: Right. The ocean is not in your favor. No matter what direction you’re swimming, it is going against you, somehow.

Aimee: And you’re going from swimming in the lane, back and forth, to swimming with 30 to 40 people kicking and smashing at you, and you’re dodging.

John: Right. Don’t get kicked in the face. Don’t get kicked in the face.

Aimee: Yeah, you’re first one is really overwhelming.

John: I’ll just go last. You guys all win. I’ll be back here, and we’re good.

Aimee: I highly recommend a wetsuit for that portion just because it makes you feel more buoyant, more safe and secure.

John: Oh, yeah.

Aimee: What’s cool about it is some of them offer, when you run off the beach, they offer a strip person that will just strip that wetsuit right off of you.

John: Oh.

Aimee: Obviously, you have a triathlon suit underneath, and then you just run to your bike.

John: That’s a totally different race, totally different race.

Aimee: Totally different race. You run to your bike, get your shoes on, clean yourself up, dry yourself up and everything, just get on your bike and go.

John: Yeah, stuff you learn from either the class or doing it once, and then you’re like, oh, alright. Good to know. Good to know. That’s fantastic. Really cool. Do you feel at all, the fitness and health, in general, translates to work? Does it give you a skill that you bring to your career?

Aimee: I think it does because you have to have discipline and you have to have a mental fitness side of things also.

John: Oh, yeah.

Aimee: When you’re doing fitness, you’re bringing in all aspects of your life into it. That also translates into your job, what you have to focus on, mentally, physically, emotionally. That plays into your job as well, so I think they both can play hand in hand on that. Of course, just starting your day out that way just makes you more productive. You just feel good. You’re ready to take on the day, and I think gives you more mental clarity. Sometimes, actually, when I’m doing fitness, I think about things that I get ideas for work. Because being marketing, you have to come up with creative things all the time. When you get into that mental space in your exercise, sometimes it actually kindles some ideas that you get for your work.

John: That’s so true. Yeah. Because at no point in your education or training was it, hey, go exercise and train for sprint triathlon because it will make you better at your job. No one ever says that.

Aimee: No.

John: But there’s always a cool, accidental byproduct of the thing that you love to do. It’s cool to hear that you come up with ideas, and it starts your day well and gets you thinking right, and then you’re more productive. You’re better at your job.

Aimee: Yes.

John: At the end of the day, which is really cool. Is this something that coworkers know about or clients know about, throughout your career, that you share with people?

Aimee: Yes. Well, besides triathlons, I obviously exercise every day now. I do a variety of different programs. I’ve actually transitioned into at-home workout programs, and not because of COVID.

John: Oh, okay.

Aimee: Just because, so, five years ago, I did a half marathon, a Disney half marathon, which I highly recommend. It’s called the Wine and Dine.

John: Oh, nice. Okay.

Aimee: So much fun. They close the parks down. You run through, I think we ran through Animal Kingdom, Hollywood Studios, and we ended in Epcot.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Aimee: They have bands playing on the route, characters. You can stop and take pictures with characters if you don’t care about your time. Yeah. I had trained all summer for that because that was in November. Mile 10 is where my knee really started to bother me, for some reason, which it never bothered me the whole time I was training, never had any issues. Mile 10, those last three miles were torture for me. I had to walk, run, walk, run, walk, run, until the end. After that, I took a couple weeks off to see if it would stop hurting. Then I started doing 5Ks again, and it still started hurting. I’m like, I don’t want knee surgery. It just became not fun for me now because I’m worried about my knee constantly. That’s when at-home workouts came into play.

John: Nice, and different things besides the running.

Aimee: Mm-hmm.

John: Yeah, and you grabbed a snow globe before you left.

Aimee: I did. I did.

John: Yeah, you did. You’re at the mothership. You’ve got to get one.

Aimee: I am.

John: It’s cool to hear that there are other things that you can do. It’s not like you had to give it up all together. It’s, well, I’m just going to do it in a different way. I saw some of the pictures that we have on the website at whatsyourand.com. The body bag is like punching or kickboxing or some kind of something. All I know is I don’t want to meet you in a dark alley. That’s all I know. Anyone who has a bag like that, knows what they’re doing. Because I’ll be flailing and then I’ll be down in about three seconds. That’s cool to hear that there are other things that keep you going. I would imagine, yeah, it comes up in conversation with people.

Aimee: Oh, all the time, which is kind of nice, in a way. I’m kind of known as the fitness geek or the fitness guru or the fitness crazy person, but they all say I inspire them. They want to do what I’m doing someday. It always comes up in conversations, always.

John: That’s super cool, though, because some people feel like, well, I’ve got this thing outside of work, but it has absolutely nothing to do with my job, so no one cares. Or I shouldn’t talk about it or whatever. You were the opposite. You were like, well, you asked, so this is what I’m doing.

Aimee: Right.

John: How much do you feel like it’s on an organization to create this space where people are allowed to share or encouraged to share, even; versus, how much is it on the individual to maybe start the circle amongst themselves or to jump in?

Aimee: I think it’s a little of both. If you don’t have a culture right now, where it is instilled, you could always start it. I find that a lot of cultures, and it could be because of COVID, that people are starting to be more open to these types of things because, hey, we are working from home. This is a different dynamic. Not everybody’s in the office all the time. We need to figure out other ways that we can connect and relate and just keep those working relationships going in a positive way, and learning about what other people do. There used to be time to chat around the water cooler but not anymore, so you’ve got to bring those chats to the Zoom screen, unfortunately. From a health and fitness perspective, what I’ve also noticed is a lot of companies now are offering incentives for working out. They’ll pay for your gym membership or half whatever you’re doing. I think, from a mental wellness perspective, companies should start thinking about having some kind of incentive for people to even dive into some kind of health and fitness regimen just to keep themselves sane

John: Yeah. That’s the thing that’s been so interesting with the past year and a half or so is just how the “and” can really help you connect with clients and coworkers and customers and whatever, but it’s even more important for just your own sanity, just to have something to go to that’s not work. Because since so much work is happening in your home, and homes weren’t designed for this, not everybody has a spare office, or it’s something that you could still see from your living room, so it’s always there. Having that thing to just completely unplug and get away is so critical.

Aimee: It is.

John: For companies to endorse it or encourage it, is even better because then it shows that we care about you.

Aimee: Exactly.

John: Do you feel like people are sharing more about their hobbies and passions now, on accident, because we’ve been in each other’s homes?

Aimee: I think so, just because you see kids running around now, and you see people’s homes in the background. Maybe they have pictures, or their pets are barking or whatever. It just ends up happening in the conversation because of that, too.

John: Yeah, because it’s all the stuff that we tried to.

Aimee: Hide.

John: Tried to hide, right. Yeah. We had this veneer of I’m uber professional person, robot lady or whatever. It’s like, no, you’re just a real person that has stuff. Yeah, we get deliveries, and the dog goes nuts. Doesn’t everyone?

Aimee: My dog does.

John: Right? No matter how well they’re trained, I’m still convinced that they think that the guy is going to break into your house. It’s like, they’re not, they’re bringing you cool stuff, all the time. It’s always fun. Have you ever come across other people that are training for things like you are, and so then you you help motivate each other? As opposed to, I know that there’s been plenty of people that, like me, you’re motivating to actually start, but people that are actually doing it that you can run with or train with, or things like that. I would imagine that relationship’s a little bit different than everyone else.

Aimee: Sure. Actually, when we did the sprint triathlon training, that was a great group of people. When we were training, we meet once a week, and then we’d also meet during the week. If anybody wanted to do running together, swimming together or biking together, we’d get together. We’d meet at the beach and get into the water because this is how it’s really going to happen.

John: Right.

Aimee: We would do that on the side, just with each other, to help each other get motivated and gear up and be ready and prepared for it.

John: Yeah, for sure. Some of those people are through work or coworkers or whatever, which is awesome. Yeah. I would imagine that, just by accident, the relationship with those people has to be just a little bit different than just everyone else.

Aimee: Exactly. Yeah. Because you have something in common with them so it’s just makes it that more relatable, when you’re working with them and hanging out with them, build a better friendship, as well as work relationship.

John: Yeah. That’s such a good point of you’re spending more time with them, so, of course, you’re going to just be more inclined, it’s more the oxytocin connecting you, subconsciously, just in your brain, you’re going to like them more. That’s awesome to hear, awesome to hear. I always struggle when I hear people that have barriers to why they want to share or rather don’t. Do you have any words of encouragement to people that have this outside-of-work hobby, and maybe it’s something crazy like sprint triathlons, but do you have any words of encouragement that it does matter and that it does impact your career and make you better at your job?

Aimee: Yeah, I think it’s so important just to humanize yourself with other people. If you’re sharing and getting out of your comfort zone, then that helps other people get out of their comfort zone and want to share. There’s nothing that’s not too crazy or outlandish. If it is crazy and outlandish, heck, that’s a great conversation. People are probably more engaged than if it was something really, I don’t know, mundane or whatever.

John: Right. Right.

Aimee: A funny story for you, I actually had my first call with the ISV Society. We had our first members call. Everyone went around and introduced themselves, and one of the things they had to say was what they like to do outside of work.

John: Awesome. Love it.

Aimee: Yeah, it was awesome. That was really what humanized the whole call was people just talking about what they do outside of work, and that just made it so much better. I wanted to tell you, I used your feedback from the book.

John: That’s awesome. Well, thank you so much. It’s just cool to hear that it works. I would imagine there are people that knew each other for years that had no clue that that’s what truly lights them up. Wow, that’s awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that because.

Aimee: Sure.

John: Yeah, I just write the book, and I don’t know what happens, type of thing. I work with some clients, so I’m able to see that a little more, hands on, but not all the time. Yeah, it’s awesome to hear that. That’s really cool. Really cool. Those are things that you’ll never forget about the person.

Aimee: Exactly.

John: Yeah. It’s like, what was their job? I don’t really remember, but they like to whatever. That’s super cool. That’s awesome. Well, this has been so much fun, Aimee. I feel like I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, so it’s only fair that we make this the first episode of the Aimee Keenan podcast. I’m all yours.

Aimee: All right.

John: Fire away, any questions you got for me.

Aimee: Okay, so who is your favorite Avenger?

John: Oh, my favorite Avenger. Is Iron Man an Avenger? Because it would be Iron Man.

Aimee: All right.

John: Not just because you brought it up earlier, just because Iron Man is just awesome. It’s like Batman but way cooler. It’s got all the gadgets but better.

Aimee: Exactly.

John: I would go with that. I almost had to Google it.

Aimee: Favorite dessert.

John: Oh, man, this is going to be hard. Yeah, all of them. Probably a brownie ala mode because then it gets more stuff, just warm brownie, dollop of ice cream, hot fudge, some nuts, whipped cream, cherry.

Aimee: The works.

John: Right. Yeah, that’d probably be pretty high on the list. It’s got the combo. Yeah.

Aimee: Okay. Well, since the Olympics are happening, what’s your favorite sport in the Olympics?

John: Favorite sport in the Olympics. Yeah, diving is always amazing to me. That’s always cool. The swimming is also interesting because it’s milliseconds, which is wild. I’ve always been an advocate, there’s a comedian who said years ago that they should just have a regular person swimming, so you can see, even the eighth place person is amazing. They lost by five seconds. It seems like they’re way behind, and they left you. It’s not even close. Diving is definitely, the fact that gravity and all the stuff, I don’t even know. Thank goodness for cameras now so they can slow-mo it.

Aimee: I know. The synchronized diving is crazy.

John: Right? Yeah, that’s the next level.

Aimee: How can they stay so in sync? It’s crazy. It is crazy.

John: Yeah. That’s the one where they even have, even getting up onto the platform is synchronized. Yeah, you guys practiced a lot for four years. It’s pretty much since the last Olympics. That’s awesome. Very cool. Well, this has been so much fun, Aimee. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”?

Aimee: Oh, thank you so much for having me, John.

John: This is awesome. Everybody, if you want to see some pictures of Aimee in action, or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there, as well to the ISV Society. While you’re on the page, please click the big green button and do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 432 of What’s Your “And”? Follow-Up Friday edition. This is John Garrett, and each Friday, I follow up with a guest who had been on the show a few years ago, to hear what’s new with their passions outside of work, and also to hear how this message might have impacted them since we last talked.

I’m so excited the book is out. You can order it on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. Thank you so much to everyone who’s read it and leaving such nice reviews on Amazon, and for changing the workplace cultures where you are because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this Follow-Up Friday is no different with my guest, Crystal Shin. She’s a business development director out of the EisnerAmper Dallas office, and now she’s with me here today. Crystal, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Crystal: Thank you so much for having me, John. Very excited.

John: This is going to be so much fun. We’ve been able to hang out in between, which was cool, to meet up in Dallas and grab some drinks. That was so much fun. We get to now show everybody the magic of hanging out with John and Crystal. This is what it is.

Crystal: Absolutely.

John: Right? All right, here we go, rapid-fire questions. Harry Potter or Game of Thrones.

Crystal: Game of Thrones.

John: Oh. Okay. All right. How about cats or dogs?

Crystal: Oh, definitely dog, furry one.

John: Oh, okay. All right. All right. How about a favorite toppings on a pizza? You can load it up.

Crystal: I would do arugula.

John: Oh.

Crystal: Some fig, yeah. That’s it. I’ll make it simple.

John: Okay. All right. What kind of sauce goes with that? Is it like a white pizza?

Crystal: White pizza.

John: Oh, okay.

Crystal: Yeah.

John: And arugula and fig. Okay. All right. How about your favorite cereal, even as a kid, growing up, whatever.

Crystal: Cinnamon Toast, a whole bunch of sugars on it, yep.

John: Yes. Okay. The milk after is.

Crystal: Oh, yeah, I drink it all.

John: So good. So good. How about when it comes to books, audio, e-book or real book?

Crystal: Real book, or audio when I’m driving, but I like the real book. I like the smell, the touch and everything.

John: Right. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, here’s one, more shower or bath.

Crystal: Oh, shower. Make it sweet and short. Yeah.

John: Just get out of here. I’m clean. Let’s go. I’m not sitting around in this. The last one, toilet paper roll, over or under.

Crystal: Over. Over.

John: Over? Okay.

Crystal: Yeah. That took me a while. I’m like, is it over or under?

John: Against the wall or coming out over the top. Yeah. So, right over the top. Yes, Episode 211, it’s almost double now, which is crazy to think. We talked then about performing, especially at your church, and the cool wigs and the the musicals and all that stuff. Is that something that you’re still doing or a little more on the side? I’m sure the last year and a half has put a wrinkle in performance.

Crystal: Absolutely. Yeah, unfortunately, I haven’t been doing a ton of children’s play musical stuff lately, but I’ve been doing the dancing and jumping and dancing with the kiddos every Sunday for, what, 14, 15 years. I’m still doing that. What a blessing that I could do, after COVID, that I could get to do in real life. We used to videotape it and then cast it out. Now it’s all in person, which is amazing.

John: Yes.

Crystal: Yes, something new I’ve been doing more of, using my creative brain lately.

John: Okay.

Crystal: I would say my new thing would be creativity, using many different facets.

John: Like what? Because that was still pretty creative. I saw the pictures. You don’t create those costumes on accident. It’s maybe just a different extension of your creativity now.

Crystal: Absolutely. Yeah. My latest creativity nowadays is, so, like social media, the only thing I do is LinkedIn, but when I post on LinkedIn, it’s got to be good, right?

John: Oh, they are.

Crystal: I’m a very visual person, so I try to put visual graphics together. I do all that because I enjoy it. It’s fun to put those together. I do that for some of the not-for-profits that I’m involved and also for groups that I’m involved within the firm, employee resource group. I do some of that, here and there, which is fine.

John: There was one that I saw just a couple of weeks ago. It’s like a boomerang sort of a thing where it was posing and moving. Yeah, it catches your attention on LinkedIn, for sure, because it’s like, wait, what?

Crystal: Yeah. Did she just move?

John: Right. Exactly. It’s like little hips. I was like, all right, all right. It was fun. Hopefully the other two people in the picture get the memo. Hey, you’re supposed to move too. Do over. Do over. That’s really cool. That’s how your brain works, and that’s how it comes out, type of thing.

Crystal: Absolutely.

John: Then other ways that the creativity is coming out?

Crystal: Yeah. I’ll do a shameless plug here. My husband, Kevin, actually just wrote a book. It’s called Stop Dieting, Start Happening. Who came up with the title? Me.

John: Yes. There you go.

Crystal: Who did the book cover too?

John: You get 100% royalty.

Crystal: Absolutely.

John: Oh, and you did the cover, as well.

Crystal: I did the book cover as well.

John: Nice.

Crystal: Just things like that, where I could use my creative here and there. It’s just really fun.

John: Yeah, and then by doing that, it’s exercising that muscle. Then when you get to work, you can be better and stronger there as well, with the ideas and stuff like that, which is really cool to see how it accidentally feeds, one side feeds the other, type of thing.

Crystal: Mm-hmm.

John: Very cool. Do you feel like people are sharing hobbies and passions and “ands” more now? Or is it still hit and miss?

Crystal: I think people are a little bit more lax, in a sense, where, because of COVID, the human aspect of everything came a little bit more, I guess, evident through this all-COVID stage, through Zoom meetings, WebEx meeting, whatever it is. I think people are connected in a more human way. That being said, they’re bringing whatever, if it’s hobbies or family members or cat’s, furry employees or whatever. We’re connecting at a different level, so I feel like even for the passions and the hobbies, I think it just comes out naturally. Because whenever you see golf balls at the back of the background, you’re like, oh, what’s that? You golf.

John: Yeah.

Crystal: There are different conversation points that come out of it, which is amazing. It’s fascinating to me.

John: That’s so awesome to hear because yeah, we’ve been in each other’s homes now. You would have never been in that person’s home, and vice versa. Now you get to see what brings them joy because that’s why it’s on their walls or in their office or wherever they’re shooting from. That’s really cool to just get those other dimensions to people, and as we move towards more in-person things, don’t forget about that part. The toothpaste is out of the tube kind of thing. Ask him about those golf balls or their cat or whatever. Even though the cat’s not in the office, who cares? They still have the cat.

Crystal: Yeah, and it’s a great way to just connect with people. I do a lot of connections outside of work because I’m in business development. I meet a lot of new people. Even now, because we just merged in with EisnerAmper about several months ago, so, being part of a larger firm, you could get lost easily. Able to share my passion and the things that I do, I’m connecting at a different level with different offices all over the world.

John: That’s so cool. That’s so cool. I think we need to bring the purple wig in then, because maybe it’s a whole new audience that we need to be bringing in here, with the purple glitter, type of thing, which is great. It’s so great to hear that you’re like, no, no, I need to share these “ands” and find out your “ands” because that’s where this is going to happen, type of thing. Even though you’re at a bigger firm, or it’s global or whatever, it doesn’t matter. It’s probably more important, actually, because you’re not just down the hall from them.

Crystal: Yes.

John: That’s super awesome. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that feels like they have an “and” that has nothing to do with their job or no one’s going to care?

Crystal: I would say, do what you love and share with others. People are drawn to passionate people. Whatever your passion is, people are drawn to it, so ignite it.

John: You’re right. Because when people are talking about work, sometimes they’re animated, but sometimes they’re not. They’re just talking. When you’re talking about your “and”, you’re always alive. You’re on fire.

Crystal: Oh, yeah.

John: Yeah, you want to be around people that are alive like that and have that energy.

Crystal: Yes, absolutely.

John: No, that’s awesome. It’s so cool to hear that it’s in the real world. You’re seeing it and living it, even more importantly, which means a lot to me. That’s awesome. So cool. Well, I feel like it’s only fair, since I started out the episode peppering you with questions, that I turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Crystal Shin podcast where you can ask me whatever you want. I’m on the hot seat. I’m actually very nervous. I’m not going to lie.

Crystal: I’ll take that.

John: Okay.

Crystal: John, what’s your “and”?

John: Oh, okay. Easily, college football, concerts and ice cream and then probably also travel.

Crystal: Ice cream? You’ve got to tell me more.

John: Yeah, ice cream is the greatest thing ever. It goes with so much. Brownie? I’ve got ice cream. Cake? We’ve got ice cream. Who serves brownies without it? I think it just comes together. When I travel, it’s fun to go to a local ice creamery and just see what the local is and some of those flavors, if they have a salted Oreo or just weird flavors that you’re like, oh, this is.

Crystal: Like bacons.

John: Yeah, exactly. You’re like, okay. In Las Cruces, New Mexico, they have green chili on everything, literally. They actually put green chili on vanilla ice cream. It’s weird. I don’t know if I like it, but I had to try it because where else am I going to do this? Yeah, it’s just fun to just see the different flavors, and just ice cream is just always good. I don’t know. Maybe it’s the inner child in me that wants to come out.

Crystal: Keep that, that inner child. I love it. Why be adult? You could still mature, but you don’t have to be acting always like an adult. Bring your kiddishness.

John: Yeah. Your passion, your “and” can literally be ice cream. It could be something that simple. It doesn’t have to be an active thing or world record-breaking. Ice cream. Yeah. Okay. If somebody also loves ice cream, let’s talk about it. Where do you go? What kind? What’s your favorite? All that.

Crystal: I love it. I love it. Another question for you.

John: Uh-oh.

Crystal: You look super nervous, but that’s why.

John: Right.

Crystal: What’s the best thing that happened in the last 30 days?

John: Oh, that’s a good question. Well I went to a Notre Dame football game, in person. That’s pretty awesome. I also got to speak at a leading partner retreat, which was pretty awesome. It’s kind of just doing my “ands” or doing the things that bring me joy and light me up. Yeah, both of those, I think, would count as pretty awesome. I also talked to Crystal Shin. That’s also on the list.

Crystal: Oh, thank you.

John: You’re like, um, that should have been number one, and I agree. I agree.

Crystal: I know. Exactly. I was waiting.

John: Right. I agree. You’re like, let me ask again.

Crystal: Hey, cut this out. Let’s do it again.

John: Exactly. Of course, talking to you is on the list. This has been so much fun, Crystal. Thank you so much for, well, living the what’s your “and” message, but also just coming back and chatting with me again. Thank you.

Crystal: This was so much fun. Thank you for having me, John.

John: Cool, absolutely. Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Crystal outside of work, or maybe connect with her on social media, so you can see all these LinkedIn posts I’m talking about, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com All the links are there, and also the link to her husband’s book will be there too. While you’re on the page, please click the big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 431 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, the things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read the book to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it. If you have, please leave a review on Amazon. Even if you didn’t buy it there, it’s still really helpful.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Gabe Messercola. He’s an asset manager at EDF Renewables North America, out of San Diego, and now he’s with me here today. Gabe, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Gabe: Yeah, thanks for having me, John.

John: Yeah, this is going to be so much fun. Before I get into it, it’s get to know Gabe on a new level here with some rapid-fire questions, so, buckle up, man.

Gabe: All right. All right. I’m ready for them.

John: All right, I’ll start you out with a pretty easy one. Favorite color.

Gabe: I’m going to go with green. I have the green shirt on too.

John: Nice.

Gabe: It’s that lively, lush grass field color that I really like.

John: Yeah. It’s nature, and it’s outside. That dovetails perfectly with everything we’re going to talk about.

Gabe: It’s a little cliché, and the color of money, which, never heard.

John: Right. There you go. There you go. How about a least favorite color?

Gabe: Bright yellow is a little obtrusive to me, in ways. It throws me off. They’re like a hazard color. When I see people wearing on their clothing, it’s like a caution sign.

John: Right. That’s funny. How about more cats or dogs?

Gabe: Oh, man, this is a tough one. I lived with a dog for the first time, over the last few months, a big Siberian husky, and it was a blast. I love both. I grew up with cats.

John: Oh, okay.

Gabe: I have more experience with cats. I’m going to say cats for now, but I love both equally.

John: Sure.

Gabe: Yeah, just because I’ve actually owned cats, and I haven’t owned a dog yet. I, one day, want to.

John: One day. All right. All right. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Gabe: My mind goes to Leonardo DiCaprio just because I don’t think I’ve ever seen a bad movie that he’s in, so I always enjoy watching his movies.

John: Yeah. There was one. I think it was called The Beach or something like that, where it was this remote island off of Thailand or something.

Gabe: Oh, yes. Yep, yep, yep. I haven’t seen that one in a while.

John: That one was a little bit sketchy, but other than that, you’re right. There’s a lot of really good one.

Gabe: Yeah. I would say, nine times out of ten, it’s going to be a solid movie.

John: Yeah, yeah. Totally. He’s like a Tom Hanks kind of guy.

Gabe: Yeah, exactly.

John: They’re all just good. They’re all just good. How about, this is a fun one someone asked me. I like to flip it around. Socks or shoes.

Gabe: I’m going to go shoes. I think either shoes or barefoot.

John: Oh, okay.

Gabe: Yeah.

John: Just no socks, regardless.

Gabe: Just no socks.

John: All right. How about a favorite day of the week?

Gabe: I do like Thursdays because I think Thursday is the first appropriate day to drink during the workweek.

John: There you go.

Gabe: it’s a little too early in the week. Of course, Friday is fine because once you’re out, you’re out, and you’re in the weekend. Thursday is like that. It’s a fun day because you’re still in your workweek, but it’s like, we’re almost there.

John: Yeah, we’re coming in for a landing.

Gabe: Thirsty Thursday, yeah.

John: There you go. I like that. Okay. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Gabe: I’m going to go with Star Wars, yeah.

John: Yeah, me too.

Gabe: There’s The Mandalorian.

John: Right? Yeah.

Gabe: Awesome show.

John: Yeah, really good.

Gabe: I like it.

John: How about your computer, a PC or a Mac?

Gabe: PC.

John: PC.

Gabe: Yeah. I’ve just always been on the Windows ecosystem. Well, I have an iPhone, and I hate that they don’t talk to each other. I’m just very stubborn with it, and I refuse to get a Mac. I’m going to stick with the PC headaches, but they’ve gotten so much better the past few years. The old days of just constantly getting viruses seem like it’s over, which is nice.

John: Needing to update every five minutes or whatever.

Gabe: Yeah, exactly.

John: Yeah. What’s a typical breakfast?

Gabe: I go pretty light in the mornings. I don’t have a huge appetite, so I usually am just, I like to hold off on the coffee for the first hour I’m awake. I’m usually glass of water, granola bar, banana, yogurt, that kind of thing.

John: Oh, yeah.

Gabe: A light continental kind of breakfast and then I eat a pretty good-sized lunch in the afternoon.

John: Right. Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. How about a favorite ice cream flavor? I’m a huge ice cream junkie.

Gabe: Coffee ice cream.

John: Oh, really? Okay.

Gabe: Yeah. It just never goes wrong.

John: Right. There you go. How about more talk or text?

Gabe: I go talk.

John: Yeah?

Gabe: Yeah. Well, texting is so normal now, but it’s just always so much easier to talk to someone on the phone. It’s funny because a lot of people now like, of all ages, gets weirded out, startled when you call them, like something bad has happened. There’s a horrible accident. You’re like, no, I was just wondering if you want milk from the grocery store or something. Yeah, usually I’ll call someone, and if they refuse to answer it, I’ll get into a text conversation. If it’s more than a few words I need to say, I try to just talk to them.

John: Yeah, it could take 30 seconds to go back and forth, and we’ve got an answer, as opposed to texting 47 times.

Gabe: Oh, yeah.

John: Ay-ay-ay, just call me.

Gabe: Especially at work, everyone’s Slacking and using Teams now. They’re great, but sometimes there’s like a 30-minute back and forth that could have been a five-minute phone call, and it’s just easier.

John: Yeah, totally. How about oceans or mountains?

Gabe: Mountains all the way, which is, I live in San Diego, so I’m conflicted. Yeah, I definitely gravitate towards the mountains. I have an irrational fear of sharks. I know it’s irrational.

John: Okay, and they are not in the mountains.

Gabe: Not in the mountains. If I get attacked by an animal, I want it to be on land, breathing air. I don’t want to die like a fish. It’s not the way I like to go. I’ve been getting into surfing, and I do enjoy it. It’s just I feel much more in my element in the mountains, with height and exposure and that whole process.

John: Until the bear sharks come out.

Gabe: Yeah, exactly.

John: Then it’s like, wait, what?

Gabe: Bear shark, NATO, it’s on land now.

John: How about, we’ve got four more, your first concert?

Gabe: Rush. I went to Rush. I was probably six or so. Just, I remember it was both the first band I saw and the first time I smelled marijuana. It was a big combination of stimulus for a seven-year-old. It was like psychedelic rock and the smell seemed to go hand in hand with each other.

John: Right. That’s funny. That is funny. How about a favorite number?

Gabe: 47.

John: Yeah. Is there a reason?

Gabe: It’s just been a reoccurring number in my life. 47 Luther Road was where I originally grew up. Yeah, it’s popped up all throughout my life and all of these really interesting places that were memorable and drew your attention to it. It’s always a poker hand I’ll play. Even though it’s an atrocious hand, I’ll always go and see the flop. I’ve never made money on it, but I’m like, it’s my lucky number.

John: One of these times.

Gabe: One of these times.

John: One of these times.

Gabe: Somebody would be like, why’d you play that? When I do win it, it’s going to be great, but.

John: Right. Hopefully, it’s on TV. It’ll be awesome. Yeah, when it comes to books, audio version, e-book or real book.

Gabe: E-book, yeah. I was very much so a real book person. I have a whole bookshelf behind me, full. There is definitely something convenient about just carrying one device that has like 800 books on it. I did get a Kindle a long time ago. I wasn’t using it a ton, and it’s resurfaced in the last few months. I’ve started using it a lot again.

John: Nice. Yeah, that works. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Gabe: I’m going to say my motorcycle.

John: Oh, okay. Yeah.

Gabe: I bought a bike right in the midst of the COVID lockdown, and that was my outlet. Southern California was insanely restrictive, almost too much so, where parks and outdoor spaces where you usually could go spread out from people, all were shut down. Everyone’s walking around the neighborhood, shoulder to shoulder with each other.

John: Right, which defeats the purpose.

Gabe: There’s no escape from it. The motorcycle was great because I like felt like I was outside. It felt normal, seeing everything, off the bike. That was a lot of fun learning over the last year and getting into.

John: Yeah, that’s awesome, man. Very cool. Let’s talk expeditionary mountaineering.

Gabe: All right.

John: Clearly there’s a mountain involved, but what is that? That’s next level. That sounds like there’s some training. You can’t just say that on a whim.

Gabe: Yeah, it’s expeditionary side of it is really we just like to suffer on these climbing trips.

John: Oh, okay.

Gabe: I think the difference between just saying a normal mountaineering trip and an expeditionary mountaineering trip is a normal trip, typically, is on an established route. You know what you’re getting yourself into. There’s been plenty before you. You can find a wealth of information online and through various government agencies usually. You’re not going into it blind. You go here. You put this item of gear here. It’s all mapped out for you. Still awesome, just always a fun time to be in the mountains.

The expeditionary side of it is introducing the unknown, where, okay, there’s not that much information. Not a lot of people have been here. We don’t know exactly what it’s going to look like. We have this grainy picture from a plane in the 1950s, and that’s what we’re going off of. It adds this self-sufficiency aspect to the sport that really complements it because it is such a demanding, personal thing to be out there. Adding that element of isolation and uncertainty just really fills in that experience to be pretty profound when you’re doing a longer trip.

John: That’s awesome, man. You’re like the Lewis and Clark type. It’s like, we’re just going and see what happens.

Gabe: I think what’s so cool about it is it’s easy to assume the world has been fully explored. When I was a kid, and you’re learning about exploration, you just think everything has been done, and every mountain has been climbed. They haven’t. Come to find out, it’s 2021, and there are hundreds of thousands of mountains on this planet that have never seen a human being, and some of them in major parks like in Denali. There are plenty of mountains there that literally, still, like our pilot last year did a first ascent on a peak pretty much right in the heart of the park where everyone goes. It just was a little bit too out there for the average person to get to. He’s a pilot, and him and his buddies just flew over and did it. There’s a bunch. They’re still everywhere. That’s what’s exciting is there’s plenty of exploring left to be done on this planet. It’s far from over.

John: Part of me was like, maybe no one’s been because you’re not supposed to go, Gabe. Well, we’ll find out. No, but I love it. I love it. That’s awesome.

Gabe: You get that feeling of a real explorer, real exploration.

John: That’s cool. I like it.

Gabe: Yeah.

John: That’s awesome. Do you have a favorite trip that you’ve been on? I know you’ve been on so many. Is there one? There’s probably a variety of them. It’s like, I guess, picking your favorite pet. It’s like, well, all of them are cool.

Gabe: I think every trip has its own impact and gives you something. In 2015, the trip we did, our first time going to Alaska, we successfully completed a chain of five mountains, including a first ascent up one of those mountains, up one of those routes on the mountain that had never been climbed before. No one had ever done all five in one go, and no one had ever done the particular side of the mountain we took to link all five together.

John: Yeah.

Gabe: That was our most successful and most sketchy experience.

John: Right, right.

Gabe: Came back from that trip completely different person, which is wild that in three weeks, you can just forever change how you think and your whole experience with the earth. Yeah, it was awesome.

John: Yeah. You mentioned pilot. These are places, it’s not like you park your car and then just go hiking. It’s, no no, we got to fly in. Are you landing on a real strip, or is it just a field?

Gabe: Usually right on the snow. In 2015, that area of the park, they didn’t allow plane landing. We had to walk in, on that trip, and that was the grueling part of that trip is it was a very long walk with a lot of gear just to get to the snow.

John: Yeah. Wow.

Gabe: The trip we just got back from, this year, actually attempting this out buttress on Denali itself, we were able to fly in, which is awesome because you land right on the glacier. The plane has skis on it.

John: Oh, okay.

Gabe: Often, you’re on the snow with your gear, backpack sled tied up behind you, pulling the rest of your weight. It’s much easier than the grueling big backpack trip to get equipment into a remote glacier somewhere. I don’t know how many more of those long approach trips we’re going to do because the plane was excellent. It was very nice, just to be right there.

John: It’s like, once you fly business class.

Gabe: Exactly.

John: It’s like, nope, I’m never going back like this.

Gabe: Yeah.

John: That’s cool, man. That’s so awesome. Do you feel like any of those skills from mountaineering translate to work at all?

Gabe: Yeah, so many of them. There’s an awesome impact on leadership, I think, that being outside and having some responsibility in a group and for your friends, really instills on you. Through the outdoors club in college and through my life, just bringing people who have never really done hiking or climbing before out, it’s really shaped my core leadership skills. I think most of my leadership skills that I pull on are from climbing and hiking and backpacking.

John: Yeah, and I would imagine just communication, it’s got to be crystal clear. When you’re on some sketchy slopes or who knows what, and especially with new people, it’s like, yeah, we can’t beat around the bush. It’s got to be super clear communication, which, as a leader, obviously, is super helpful as well. Yeah, I imagine at no point in college did someone tell you, go do mountaineering because it will make you a better leader and better at business.

Gabe: Exactly, and it has that, safety first is always the priority. Even at work, every decision we make is safety-oriented, at the highest level. That is something that I think is hard to instill as a leader unless you gain your leadership skills in a more stressful way. That pressure from being outside with people who you’re responsible for, and being a 20-year-old college student who drinks a bit too much, you need to suddenly be serious because you have 14 people, some international students who have never hiked before. You’re up on Mount Washington and storm is rolling in. There’s a level of seriousness and somberness that comes from that. You quickly realize that getting your communication right isn’t just a nice thing. It is a critical thing for everyone’s safety. Hand in hand with the communication is the planning, going through.

John: Oh, that’s a good point, too. Yeah.

Gabe: The scenarios, make sure everyone knows really everything, and you can quiz people. There are ways to make sure that the plan is instilled, and you’re not just the only one who knows what’s going on. Those two things, yeah, it’s really shaped them, and being a trip leader, eventually being the president of that club, and then looking at the inclusiveness of the outdoors and the patience it takes to plan some of these trips to get to everything right and detailed. Sometimes the fact you’ll get set back, and being able to have alternate plans and still have a bunch of fun with people who paid to go do a good hike or backpacking trip somewhere.

John: Yeah, yeah. Because success could be reaching the top but success is also, maybe we didn’t, but we learned something, we had fun, it was still an adventure and what have you. There are still good things that come out of it, man, so many things.

Gabe: Being outside safely always feels like a success because it’s very easy to get in, over your head.

John: We all came back.

Gabe: Yeah, that was always a victory. It really was.

John: Yeah, man, I could totally see that. Is this something that you share at work that coworkers know about? Or is it something that you just keep on the down low?

Gabe: I don’t really talk about it a ton. Some people have found out and will talk to me about it, and I’m happy to talk about it. A fair amount of people, on this last trip, found out because I think my boss sent a mass email out, so I have people asking me about it now. I’m showing photos and stuff from this last trip up Denali. I’m not going to bring up proactively, but if someone is asking me about it, I love talking about it.

John: Well, I’m just curious to just hear, what’s the difference between before or earlier this year when they didn’t know versus now when people are asking you? Is there a different energy?

Gabe: A little bit.

John: Do you prefer to be anonymous?

Gabe: Sort of.

John: I would imagine it’s kind of cool.

Gabe: Yeah, it is cool. I think, for so many people, their risk tolerance is very different. Especially with the hair, because I didn’t have long hair, pre-COVID, when I was in the office. Now, I’m back in the office. Tuesday through Thursday, I’m working in there; and Monday, Fridays, I’m working remote. It’s been funny because the hair is shocking to people because I was in rural Colorado, and this is the look out there. I didn’t want to bother with a haircut through COVID, so I just let it go. They’re doing double takes at me, with the hair. Also they found out about the trip. They’re like, are you okay? As if I just was like, I’m going to go climb this mountain. I have no experience.

John: Yeah, just out of nowhere. I watched the movie, and I’m going to go.

Gabe: Yeah, it seems cool. I think that’s most people’s impression. They don’t know my full background of climbing. They’re like, like I have crazy eyes or something, they’re like, you seem unhinged, something seems different.

John: Right.

Gabe: A few of my friends have called me a wild man and all this stuff. I’m like, oh, Jeez. It’s not a bad reputation to have, but I don’t know if it’s necessarily good. Yeah, Gabe, he’s crazy. He’s a crazy person.

John: Yeah, I call it being alive. That’s pretty awesome.

Gabe: Exactly.

John: Yeah, but I think it’s neat that people didn’t just brush it off and be like, well, why did his boss email me? This is annoying. Instead, it’s opposite, where now, everyone’s asking, and they’re interested.

Gabe: Yeah, people seem to be excited.

John: That’s a cool thing.

Gabe: Exactly.

John: As opposed to, yeah, if they found out and then they just brush it off. They’re like, so what, whatever. Instead, they’re interested, which is nice to know that at least people care and have a genuine interest.

Gabe: Yeah. I think people are living vicariously through it a little bit because a lot of people still haven’t had that moment of normalcy back in their lives. A lot of people still aren’t traveling. It’s been a cool story for people who have been locked up, especially locked up in Southern California for the last year and a half, have families and are still being insanely COVID-safe. I’ve been getting to show off the photos and tell the story.

John: Yeah. The mountains are still there, everybody. It’s still happening.

Gabe: Yeah, exactly.

John: That’s awesome. I think it’s so cool to hear that your manager sent that email out. How much is it on an organization to create that environment where, hey, people have outside interests, and let’s share it; versus, how much is it on the individual to maybe just create that little small circle amongst their peers type of thing?

Gabe: Yeah, well, it does feel a little, I don’t know what the perfect word is. I am very honored that they highlight me. I think it makes some people feel a little self-conscious when that happens. Personally, I was fine with it. I agree that people’s personal achievements or interest should be celebrated. The taboo of discussing non-work related things at work should be broken. Yeah, it was great of them to do that and to highlight my out-of-work life a little bit for people who might have not known.

John: Yeah, yours is pretty extreme, but anybody listening, well, highlight bake a cake.

Gabe: Yeah, exactly.

John: Awesome. That’s just as cool.

Gabe: Yeah. Have any photos? We’ll put a blog on that stuff.

John: Right.

Gabe: Exactly.

John: Yeah, exactly. It doesn’t have to be something that’s life-threatening or something that no one else is doing. As a matter of fact, I found, because I was doing comedy when I worked at PwC, and people remembered that. I never met anyone else doing comedy. Yet, people remembered that. Where if it’s, well, I play golf; it’s like, well, so does 40,000 other people in the office. Even if it’s something unique, that’s, well, no one else does it. Well, actually, that’s going to be even more unique. People are going to be drawn to it even more.

Gabe: Yeah, it’s always those unique facts that help you remember people too. There are a lot of people out here who go to the beach, into the ocean and even surf. I do usually remember people that surf because it kind of sticks out, but the fact that in Southern California that you’ll introduce your main out-of-work activity is going to the beach, I’m sure there’s something deeper there. It’s just the default out there. I spend my weekends at the beach and weeks in the office. It kind of blurs people together. Someone recently talked to me about trout fishing, and they’re like, I love trout fishing. I love fly fishing. That’s my thing. It wasn’t recent. I think they told me this two years ago. Whenever I see them, I’m like, have you gone recently? Because it just sticks out and I remember them super well. Yeah, it makes a big difference, for sure.

John: Yeah. What’s their job? I don’t even remember. It doesn’t matter.

Gabe: Yeah, but it’s because they expose that passion. You can see it in their eyes. You see that they’re all nerdy about their gear. It’s a big thing for them. They allowed themselves to be vulnerable and share that and, yeah, it made a lasting impression.

John: Yeah. Sometimes we’re nerdy about our work, but sometimes we’re not. It’s work, but every time we’re nerdy about our “and”, every time.

Gabe: Yeah.

John: I love that, man. That’s so great. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that might have a hobby or a passion that they feel like no one cares about, or it doesn’t matter?

Gabe: Sure. Yeah. Like I said, there’s plenty of things left to explore. That applies to physical spaces, but it also applies to whatever interest you have. There’s always an avenue for you to do something different. There’s always an avenue for you to be unique. Nothing has been fully worked through in any hobby. It’s like, innovation is everywhere, and that’s exciting.

John: Yeah, and to be a successful professional, it doesn’t have to be one thing. You can be good at your job and have a variety of different hobbies, and all those people are successful. You don’t have to just be all this all the time. You’re proof of that, so that’s super cool, man. Well, I feel like it’s only fair, before I wrap this up, that I turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Gabe Messercola podcast. Thanks for having me on, man.

Gabe: Of course.

John: I’m all yours. Whatever you’ve got, you can ask away.

Gabe: Awesome. Yeah, I was wondering, who has been your, I guess, most unique “and”? What was the most unique “and” that you’ve ever come across? One that it was just a surprise.

John: Just a surprise? Well, I had a lady on who makes kombucha at home. She actually got her SCOBY from a coworker.

Gabe: Oh, nice.

John: Because she was just talking about it, and she was like, maybe I’ll make it. I don’t even know how to make it. The coworker overheard and was like, well, I actually have a giant SCOBY, so I’ll give you some, and started just for herself and her family and stuff. That’s kind of a unique one, I think.

Gabe: Yeah, definitely. Did she show you the SCOBY? Did she bring it on camera?

John: Actually, it was before I was doing the camera, to be able to talk.

Gabe: Have you ever seen one? They’re gross.

John: Like a liver or something.

Gabe: Yeah, I love kombucha. I love it, but it’s seriously disgusting.

John: They smell weird.

Gabe: Yeah.

John: Totally.

Gabe: Floating alien blob thing.

John: Right?

Gabe: I don’t know.

John: It’s like alive, kind of.

Gabe: Yeah, I saw it one time at a friend’s place, and it was just like.

John: Yeah, I did not need to know how the kombucha was made. I did not need to know. Right?

Gabe: Yeah.

John: So that was a good one.

Gabe: Nice.

John: Yeah, that was unique. The thing is, all of them are unique because how you do it, how you got into it, why, the things that you’re taking from it; they’re all so different.

Gabe: Yeah.

John: That’s what’s cool to me about it.

Gabe: Yeah, and there’s plenty, even with something like kombucha, to that point, you get to the stage of flavoring it, and it’s infinite. You can take it anywhere you want to go with it.

John: How long you let it ferment, how alcoholic we’re going on this bad boy.

Gabe: Yeah, exactly. Hard kombucha is a very popular thing in Southern California. It is all the rage out here, yeah, like 10% kombuchas.

John: Oh, wow.

Gabe: It’s very prevalent. Yeah.

John: That’s packing a punch. That’s awesome.

Gabe: Yeah, and healthy. It’s fine. It’s probably a good thing.

John: Exactly. Exactly.

Gabe: Do you still do comedy?

John: That’s a good one. I do not do comedy clubs anymore. No, that’s been quite a few years. I made the shift of marrying my corporate John with the comedy John, probably about six or seven years ago now. It’s just hard. I’ve only been to one live comedy show since then. It happened to be, Ryan Hamilton’s a friend of mine, and then Tommy Johnagin was opening for him at a small theater in Portland, which happened to be, I was in town for a conference, speaking at it. I sent him a text. They’re like, yeah, sure, come on. That was really cool. It’s so hard because I know what all the comedians are going through to try and be successful, and sometimes comedy clubs don’t treat you very well.

Gabe: Yeah, definitely.

John: It’s just a hard life. Of course, there’s PTSD which is very bad. There’s got to be a light version of that, that you go through. It’s too close, so it’s hard for me to go.

Gabe: Well, like you said, you still kept it alive by marrying it to all these other things, and that’s great.

John: When I speak at conferences, I do plenty of comedy. I do the music video parodies. I do funny things on the side.

Gabe: Oh, that’s awesome. I’ve heard a lot of that in comedy. I know a handful of people in Los Angeles who go to the Laugh Factory and places like that. I’ve heard the struggles. It is daunting. It’s like trying to be an actor, same thing, just as much of a struggle where there’s a lot of people trying to do the same thing. The pressure is, I’m sure is outrageous.

John: Yeah, and then the step up is actors don’t have to write anything. You have to write your stuff and then go deliver it and get metaphorically punched in the face when nothing’s funny.

Gabe: Yeah, actually.

John: Yeah. You get some thick skin quick. I’ll tell you that.

Gabe: You get is a great skill, learning how to do that and work with a crowd.

John: I don’t even blink anymore. I’m just like, whatever. I’ve seen some stuff. It’s like, whatever.

Gabe: Awesome.

John: Yeah, awesome, man. Well, this has been so much fun, Gabe. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”?

Gabe: Yeah, it’s been awesome being on here, and I’m excited to hear the episode.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Gabe from his expeditions or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out my book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use for the podcast and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 429 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book, also called What’s Your “And”? It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. It goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Jen Todling. She’s an audit partner with EY in their Tysons, Virginia office, and now she’s with me here today. Jen, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Jennifer: John, it’s so great to be here. Thanks for including me.

John: Absolutely. This is going to be so awesome. Before we get into the really cool stuff, we’re going to do some minor cool stuff, get to know Jen on a new level here.

Jennifer: I can’t wait. Let’s go for it.

John: Here we go. I’ll ask you. Favorite day of the week.

Jennifer: Ooh, Saturday.

John: Saturday. There you go. Solid answer. I agree. That’s mine, too. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw?

Jennifer: I don’t really like puzzles, but if I have to do one, probably jigsaw.

John: Okay. All right. Fair enough. Fair enough. How about a favorite color?

Jennifer: Purple, absolutely purple.

John: There you go. How about a least favorite color?

Jennifer: Brown.

John: Oh, brown. Yeah.

Jennifer: Gross.

John: Right? That’s a pretty popular least favorite color answer. How about cats or dogs?

Jennifer: Definitely dogs, although I don’t have any right now. I used to have four. They were my first fur babies.

John: There you go. Yeah, dogs are awesome, for sure. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Jennifer: I love Hugh Jackman and Matthew McConaughey.

John: Yeah.

Jennifer: I have to go for J.Lo because my nickname is Jenny from the block. I have to start with J.Lo. J.Lo is my inspiration.

John: There you go. Alright, and she’s a dancer too.

Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly.

John: There you go. That’s awesome. This is one someone asked me, and I like to flip it back now is socks or shoes.

Jennifer: I very rarely wear socks. It’s kind of a running joke in my house. Definitely shoes. I go for the flats that I do not need socks with.

John: That’s hilarious. That’s awesome. That’s so good.

Jennifer: I wear shoes.

John: Yeah, there you go. How about books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Jennifer: Definitely real books. Definitely real books. We run out of bookcases in my house. I just keep buying them, so, 100% all the way old school.

John: That’s awesome. How about a favorite number?

Jennifer: 11.

John: Yeah, is there a reason?

Jennifer: Maybe it’s superstitious, but my sister got me into the whole 11-11. It’s like blessings from above. I don’t know. There’s something there. Anytime I see 11 or 11-11, there’s something there that’s magical.

John: No, it’s great. Number one is good, but two number one, why not?

Jennifer: Exactly. Why stop at one?

John: Right? There you go. How about your first concert?

Jennifer: Oh, New Kids on the Block.

John: Nice.

Jennifer: Yeah. Awesome. Then I saw them again, I think the year before I turned 40, so, bringing it full circle there. They all aged a little bit, but it was still pretty good.

John: That’s awesome.

Jennifer: Yeah, definitely the biggest New Kids on the Block fan. It was amazing.

John: New Kids, yeah. That’s fantastic.

Jennifer: Product of the ‘80s and ‘90s.

John: Yeah, yeah, totally. Shifting gears, balance sheet or income statement.

Jennifer: Balance sheet.

John: Balance sheet. There it is. Yeah, because then you know if it’s right or not.

Jennifer: Exactly. It’s one period of time, simplify it.

John: Right, right. There you go. How about a TV show you would binge-watch, maybe of all time?

Jennifer: I’m a pretty big reality TV fan. I like them all. I don’t discriminate, but I do like some good reality TV.

John: My wife got us on the Married at First Sight. That’s the only reality show I watch.

Jennifer: Oh, yeah. 90 Day Fiance, it’s every Sunday night. I’m bringing it down to my house. I do like reality television, just helps me zone out a little bit.

John: Yeah, and any of those marriage ones makes me seem so much better than what I am. Look how good I am.

Jennifer: You really do appreciate your life when you walk away from that.

John: Right?

Jennifer: And then you can never go wrong with Friends or Sex in the City. Those are a couple of my favorites too, if I’m going to just binge-watch.

John: Yeah. Okay, solid answers, solid answers. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Jennifer: Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. Yeah, me too.

Jennifer: Yeah.

John: All right, I’ve got four more. PC or Mac for your computer.

Jennifer: I’m a PC girl.

John: Yeah, I am, too. I don’t even think I’m cool enough.

Jennifer: I don’t know how to do the Mac. I want to do it. I think they’re pretty cool, but I don’t know how to do it.

John: I think that’s just like a marketing ploy. I’m not sure. Or at least that’s what I tell myself because I’m not cool enough.

Jennifer: Yeah, I haven’t figured it out yet.

John: How about diamonds or pearls?

Jennifer: Diamonds. Diamonds are a girl’s best friend. Right?

John: Right, right. It’s right there.

Jennifer: It’s right there. It’s obvious.

John: There you go. Two more. Favorite ice cream flavor.

Jennifer: Rocky road.

John: There you go, a classic.

Jennifer: Or anything with chocolate. Yeah.

John: Right. Yeah, that’s a classic. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Jennifer: My passport.

John: Your passport. Oh, solid answer.

Jennifer: Although it hasn’t gotten a lot of use in the last year and a half, but that’s okay. Better times are ahead.

John: Exactly. That just means that there’s space so you don’t have to get a second one.

Jennifer: There is.

John: There you go. That’s a good answer. Let’s talk dance. How did you get started? Did J.Lo teach you herself? No, I’m just kidding.

Jennifer: I know. I’m waiting for that moment, that Masterclass to come out.

John: Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer: It’s interesting. If I look back when I was just a young girl even, just sort of preteen, I always love to dance. I don’t know if you remember Star Search, but I was addicted to Star Search.

John: Ed McMahon.

Jennifer: Yeah, Ed McMahon, and I was watching it whenever it was on. I would take the routines and memorize them. I started teaching my whole neighborhood kids and my younger sister, these routines. I was a coach and a choreographer. I think I had a little bit of formal training when I was five and then I didn’t have any formal training. I just was self-taught, super passionate about it, had the flyers for the neighborhood talent show. When I was 14, which is a really late start to start dancing, I started professionally training as a ballerina and jazz dancer. I was part of a company, and I worked really hard, 15 hours a week, training ballet, jazz, all the disciplines, and was in the pre-professional dance company, doing The Nutcracker and Swan Lake and all the things. It always was such a core part of who I am and what I’m passionate about, and I think it’s just been a balance of that technical or the intellect side and the creative side. It really was a good outlet for me, creatively. So, my whole teen years, I was dancing, and that was really just who I was and what I lived for really.

John: No, that’s awesome. I would imagine that it’s a little bit harder when you come in, at that age, because everyone else has been, all the basic moves and all that. You’re like, I didn’t see this on Star Search. That was not… Right?

Jennifer: I know. It’s funny. I danced on pointe. I didn’t have the feet that were perfectly arched and all of the technique, but I just worked really, really hard. I didn’t have a lot of money, growing up. I got scholarships. I did work-study to teach, so I could support my training. Looking back, it’s pretty incredible, just really a five-year period, dancing at a pre-professional level with not a ton of experience and training. It was just the heart and the passion. I loved it. I had really wonderful teachers and really good…

John: Yeah. It’s awesome. Giving you props, that’s not easy at all, especially on the pre-professional level. This isn’t a rec league, go into the whatever, the rec center in town and whatever. No, this is legit. Do you have any cooler memories of shows that you did or things that were some of your favorite experiences?

Jennifer: I wasn’t in competition. I realized that, even later as an adult, I really actually do not like to compete. I am not a very competitive person, but I love to perform. We had a lot of performances. I think one of the ones I really loved is my local town had a carnival, and we were the entertainment for the carnival, in that stage, doing parades, different kinds of ways to showcase. I love doing The Nutcracker every year. I was the mechanical doll, and having that solo was just really fun. Just being a part of the local community and being able to perform and express myself. I also used that as a way to give back. I was a part of an organization that helped support teenagers in crisis. It was a youth-based organization. Part of the fundraising efforts is, I became the artistic director for this organization, and we put on an entire production of A Christmas Carol in a musical form. I choreographed, recruited non-dancers, men and women, and created that for the community to support this organization. That was a really cool way for me to create my own thing as an 18-year-old.

John: That’s really cool. It just feels good to see these people that you know have gone through some stuff, to be able to shine and perform and share the joy that you get out of being onstage as well.

Jennifer: Exactly.

John: That’s amazing. The mechanical doll, that’s a full-on solo. It’s just you, and everyone’s looking at you. That’s really cool.

Jennifer: Yeah, I still whip it out periodically. I still know that routine. She just stares at me. I still break out the pointe shoes periodically too, because my feet hurt very badly when I do that, but you’ve still got to show that you can keep up with it.

John: Show yourself, even, at the very least.

Jennifer: Exactly.

John: Yeah. That’s awesome. Do you feel like any of this translates to work? Clearly, it was a passion. You were driven. It was who you are, as a person, even still today. Sometimes there’s an accidental byproduct that, oh, wow, there’s actually a skill here that translates to my corporate life. Do you feel like any of that crosses over?

Jennifer: Yeah, I do. It’s interesting. I didn’t fully appreciate that until maybe six months ago in the middle of the pandemic, where I stopped dancing just because everything shut down, and I found an outlet to pick it up again in January, because studios started transitioning to go virtual. I started taking classes again, with my favorite teachers in New York, hip hop. I started to realize that as I was engaging in that part of myself again and using a different part of my brain, it actually was making me better at my job because it was turning off that default task-oriented piece. It was opening up the creative insight moments where you get those a-ha moments. I was like, oh, my gosh, I’ve been missing this. I didn’t fully appreciate that it was helping me integrate more of my brain, and it was challenging me to learn choreography again, and have to just work differently. It made me appreciate that, in a work setting, you can’t just be focused only on completing tasks because you miss half of the power of insight and perspective, and that’s so crucial in what I do. So, absolutely, there’s a ploy in there.

John: Yeah, that’s huge. That’s a huge insight to have. That’s awesome. Like you said, when you just have your head down, you’re in the trenches, just get your work done; and it’s like, no, no, no, there’s all this stuff that’s happening that’s actually richer and cooler. Even as an auditor, you need to sense those things, but even just a relationship with your colleagues or coworkers, yeah, you miss out on that. That’s cool to hear that you recognize that.

Jennifer: Yeah.

John: It’s amazing how easy it is to just slide down that slippery slope and just get stuck in the, well, it’s work. It’s like, yeah, but it doesn’t have to be.

Jennifer: Yeah, and this one because it’s so active, and there’s an exercise component. I think, for me, my path as a partner, it took me a while, and I’m still on the journey to figure out my own vitality and what I need to be at my peak performance. Obviously, exercise is a key component of that. So, it helps me also just to have my mind in the right space to be able to manage the stress and manage the pressure productively because you just need that outlet. Absolutely, there’s a benefit to being able to integrate that in some way.

John: Yeah. Is this something that you talk about at work, or that people know about, the dancing side of you?

Jennifer: Yeah. It’s funny because when I, so I grew up in Colorado. I moved, my sophomore year of college, to California. I finished school in California, and that’s where I started my career. I didn’t dance for a decade. I did not dance in my 20s. I think there were just personal situations. My life just didn’t really accommodate it, and I kind of lost that. When I got an opportunity to move to New York and do a rotation on our national office, I was in New York City, this is the artistic capital of the world. I expanded myself to learn ballroom, and I became addicted. I was at the dance studio every single night, four, five hours, doing the classes, the parties. I would walk to the studio near the Empire State Building. Our office was Time Square, ten-minute walk. Pretty quickly, people started, in my second chapter at EY, started to recognize me in that realm because that’s clearly what I was spending my nights and weekends doing. Also, I did a rotation at the SEC, and I got known for that as well, and even found opportunities to teach some of my colleagues, dance.

John: The SEC ballroom dancing. This is incredible.

Jennifer: Yeah, so if I think of my most proud moment in my career, it probably was teaching, at that time, the chief accountant and some of the commissioners, how to do the salsa. My husband came with me. We were the entertainment for the Chinese New Year celebration. We did a little instruction. That, to me, was so cool to be able to integrate it. That’s how I got this Jenny from the block, or JFTV brand because like, I’m sorry, I’ve got to go to dance class. That chapter here that I’ve been on the East Coast, I’ve definitely grown back into redefining myself and realizing this is who I am, and I need to embrace it.

John: No, it’s so true. It’s also pretty interesting to hear, from all of your career, all of the things that you’ve done, it’s teaching others how to dance is the thing that stands out the most. That’s really deep, when you think about it. Yet, there isn’t a charge code for that. It’s not on any annual review, but that’s the stuff that we’re going to remember. It’s the stuff that they’re going to remember about you too, for sure. That’s awesome.

Jennifer: Yeah. I remember when we had my goodbye party, when I was going to the SEC, and I was leaving New York. One of the stories that was told, because we did a roast and the other partners shared their experiences, what they remember of me was we had this big deadline. We’re trying to get something out the door. I’m in the office, and I’m like, hey, I’ll be right back. I need to just go do a Paso Doble really quick at the EY’s Got Talent Show across the street at the American Airline theater. I just got to go do my Paso Doble and then be back online in a couple hours. That was such a cool experience. I got the experience to dance on Broadway, literally, and grateful for EY for recognizing, giving people an opportunity to share their talents. That’s what I did. I did my makeup. I walked across the street, put on my costume, did my performance. They had popcorn, all the things, and then came back and worked till whatever, midnight, whatever to get the thing out. That was a really memorable experience of, again, integrating that and then just going for it too, because that was just such an enriching period of my life, personally and professionally. I really appreciated that opportunity.

John: Yeah. It’s so cool to hear. Just curious, to compare and contrast, that’s ten years where you weren’t dancing, compared to then or even now, what is the difference? It seems palpable. It seems like it’s very clear, black and white, but a lot of people get stuck in that I’ve got work to do, work, work, work, work, work or work, more work.

Jennifer: Yeah. It’s 100%, night and day. Part of that was I had some challenging circumstances in my life, so that was sort of a dark chapter for me, in general.

John: Sure.

Jennifer: I will say, the more I’ve been able to just expand and indulge in those areas that I’m passionate about, I’m definitely more fulfilled. I’m definitely happier. There’s more purpose. It’s busy. There’s a lot going on. I think I’m better at my job because it’s not all that I have. There’s more to it.

John: There it is. That’s the magic right there. My ultimate dream is that organizations track their people’s passion hours. There’s actually a charge code for your dancing. If you don’t have these many hours in the year dancing, then you’re not as good at your job as what you could be. Whatever your passion is, if you’re tracking everything else, why not track the important stuff?

Jennifer: I remember reading that in your book, and I highlighted, underlined, I 100% agree, because it also just shows that there’s value in that. This isn’t something you’re just fitting in because you have something, and it also encourages other people to have something. There’s more to life than just working. Everyone has special talents or skills or interest, and it’s important to nurture those. I love that concept.

John: Yeah. How much do you feel like it is on the organization to create that atmosphere where sharing and shining a light on these “ands” is the thing, or how much is it on the individual to either plug into that or start their own little circle?

Jennifer: Yeah, I think it’s probably something both parties need to be mindful of. For me, the way I look at it is, I want to feel comfortable being myself at work, in all aspects. I want to feel comfortable sharing the things that are important to me. I want to work for an organization that values that and has a culture that supports and wants to know who I am as a person, not just what tasks I can complete in my job.

For me, it’s part of that creating that culture of belonging and inclusion where everyone feels welcome. I think organizations can do that. They have a role in supporting and encouraging that and celebrating it. EY’s Got Talent Show. We did one, in person, before the pandemic. We just did one through the pandemic, and everyone submitted their videos. My husband and I did one. So, looking for opportunities to celebrate that, it’s fun. Everybody wants to have fun. We all want to see different things. Even if we’re not participating, it’s cool to see that.

As an individual, it’s been a journey for me. I’m still evolving as a person, but getting more comfortable, just being authentic in who I am and saying, I’m not just single dimension, I’m multidimensional. That what’s your “and” has really resonated with me. It’s not either-or, it’s and. I’m a partner, and I’m a dancer, and I’m a mentor, and I’m a coach, all the things that are important to me. That shifts with time, but I think it’s on both parties to recognize it and to make the time for it. It’s your life, and it’s your happiness. It’s important to prioritize that.

John: No, that’s so cool to hear. Yeah, you’re right, almost both sides hold each other accountable, type of thing. If the organization isn’t doing it, then it’s up to the people to be like, yo, yo. If the people aren’t doing it, then it’s up to the organization to say, hey, what’s going on? Do we need to make time for this? Why are you not making time for this? It’s just cool to hear your journey and how enriching it is, to have these other dimensions to you, and how much it just makes you better at work and better in life, really, at the end of the day.

Jennifer: Yeah, and I think it’s made me a better team leader too. I try and ask questions to understand what makes people tick, and what do they care about, and to pay attention to that, and ask, are you honoring that? Are you making time for that? It could be personal. It could be professional. Some of my team members love to teach. I’m like, hey, did you get on the roster to teach this year? Or how’s your basketball game going? What does that look like? Because part of it is we don’t work for big companies, we work for people. Having those connections in the relationships are so critical, so you have to know your people. This is one element to get to know someone. Even my new team members that I haven’t met in person yet, I ask, hey, what do you like to do outside of work? What does that look like? That just helps me understand what’s important to them better.

John: Yeah. Read more FASBs? No.

Jennifer: No. But you know what? Some people do really like to read them. They do, and that’s fine.

John: Yeah, exactly.

Jennifer: You’re right, everyone is a little bit different.

John: Keep going. There’s something else. That’s so cool to hear that that’s what you do. It’s such a simple example for people that are listening right now. They’re like, well, I don’t know how to do this. You just take five minutes and ask and have a conversation and be genuinely interested.

Jennifer: Exactly. None of this is rocket science. That’s what I always say when we talk about how do we help support culture, because that can feel really intimidating and scary. It’s simple. It’s just like asking a question. You don’t have to have an answer. You’re just listening, genuinely listening. It’s just a simple things that can make a big difference. Like peloton, peloton craze has been insane with the pandemic. I’ve seen people start their own, even some of the working mom groups I’m a part of, let’s start our own peloton group. Just simple things you can get on the bandwagon and just create something that’s a little bit different.

John: Yeah, and connections that are beyond just the work connection type of thing, which I find, then critical feedback isn’t so critical. The working relationship is better and stronger and smoother. Just so many good things come from just such a simple concept. It’s cool to hear that it’s in the real world too, type of thing, and not just my head. That’s awesome. Before we wrap this up, because this has been so awesome, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe feels like they have a hobby that has nothing to do with their job, and no one’s going to care about it type of thing?

Jennifer: Yeah. I guess my advice is invest in it, prioritize it, spend time. It might be hard to do that, but do it anyway. It’s still vulnerable for me to come out of my shell. I’m going to teach a dance class this week for my coworkers. I’m going to record a video to kick off the summer. I’m nervous, I’m vulnerable, but I’m doing it anyway. I would say, do it anyway. You can let fear, you can let all of that get in the way, but that’s not fun. So, get out of your comfort zone, go for it, just have fun. You’re not going to regret it.

John: That’s awesome to see because you on that video is going to be the most lit up that you could possibly be. For other people to see that, that translates through even video, to see, wow, Jen is on fire right now. This is what really lights her up. It’s infectious. People want to hear more about that or see that.

Jennifer: I love that you just said that because I think that’s so true. Every time I get feedback of, wow, that was so cool to watch, or, wow, you just seemed so authentic; that’s reaffirming to me that I’m on the right path. You’re absolutely right, there’s an energy there, when we’re just living our authentic lives, we’re going for it, we’re just out there, that is contagious. It’s really fun. I’m on my own journey of embracing the energy, embracing the vulnerability and just going for it. That would be my advice. Think less, do more.

John: Yeah, I love that. That’s so great, so great. Provided you get your work done. There’s that part but, of course.

Jennifer: Yeah, you still have to get your work done. You still have to get your work done.

John: Yeah. I just want to make sure, for people listening that haven’t read the book or haven’t, yeah, this assumes that you’re all good at your jobs. You’re getting your work done. You’re not interrupting other people getting their work done. This is all assuming all the basics.

Jennifer: Absolutely.

John: Yeah. That’s so great. I feel like, before I wrap this up, though, I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, that I feel it’s only fair that we turn the tables, the first episode of the Jen Todling podcast. Thanks for having me on. I’m all yours. What have you got?

Jennifer: All right, John, sweet or salty snack.

John: Oh, sweet, all day. Yeah.

Jennifer: Favorite vacation spot.

John: Oh, wow. Costa Rica is pretty awesome, but the flight’s a little long. I’m lazy, so, a Cancun or a Cabo. Because in Denver, on the West Coast, I’ve never lived West before, until several years ago when I moved here. It’s such a short flight that it’s like, oh, man, yeah. You’re there in like three hours, at the resort. Okay, I can do this. Yeah, that’s always a nice little getaway, and it seems exotic because it’s another country.

Jennifer: Cancun is one of my favorite places. I have flown there from Denver, so I completely relate to that.

John: Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer: All right, one more for you.

John: Okay.

Jennifer: What’s the best advice you ever received?

John: Oh, wow. The best advice I’ve ever received, is, pretty much, don’t take the advice if you don’t want to do it. It’s almost like, if you didn’t ask for it, and it’s not someone that you respect, and it’s not helping you, then don’t take it. Don’t listen to it. Do your thing. When you ask for advice from people that you respect and admire, then take it to heart. If it’s random people, when I did comedy, you’re just out, after the show, in the lobby, saying bye to people. People will say things to you that I’m not sure if they practiced in their head, what was going to come out. You get a pretty thick skin, and you’re just like, you know what, I really don’t care. I’m doing what I do, and there’s plenty of people that do like it. If you’re a train wreck of a person, clearly, listen to some advice, but do you and then find your place where you fit. So, don’t listen to all the advice is my advice, including me saying that advice, don’t listen too, in a weird Matrix kind of a thing.

Jennifer: I think that’s true, though, and like you just said, you do you. I think that’s really important.

John: Yeah, I’m a fan of that. Jen, thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This is so awesome to have you be a part of this. Thank you.

Jennifer: Thanks, John, for having me and for writing the book and encouraging me. It’s great to have cheerleaders out there for everyone, so, really appreciate the opportunity to be here today.

John: Totally. That means so much, for you to say. Everyone listening, if you want to see some pictures of Jen in action onstage or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 427 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book, also called What’s Your “And”? It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. It goes more in depth into the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and listening to it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Braughm Ricke. He’s the founder of Aduro Advisors who provide strategic financial services to premier venture capital and private equity firms. Now he’s with me here today. Braughm, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Braughm: Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

John: Yeah, this is going to be a blast, so much fun. First, I have some rapid-fire questions, get to know Braughm right out of the gate. This one might be an easy one. How about a favorite color?

Braughm: Blue.

John: Blue. Solid. Mine too. How about a least favorite color?

Braughm: Purple.

John: Purple. Interesting. Okay.

Braughm: Yeah, I know, not too far from blue. Right?

John: Yeah, yeah, but it mixes with red and then it gets tainted. It’s dirty. How about cats or dogs?

Braughm: Dogs. I’ve got four.

John: Oh, wow. Okay. All right, you’re all in on that. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Braughm: Jason Statham. First one top of mind.

John: Oh, okay. Nice. Yeah, that’s the first time for that, but yeah, really good. How about more chocolate or vanilla?

Braughm: Chocolate.

John: Yeah. Yeah. How about a favorite day of the week?

Braughm: Great question. Maybe let’s say Sunday.

John: Sunday. Okay, solid. There you go. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw?

Braughm: Sudoku.

John: Sudoku. Nice. That’s actually how I do my tax return. Just kidding.

John: No one call the IRS. Alright, we’re all good. How about Star Wars or Star Trek? Star Wars. Yeah, mine too. Yeah, for sure. How about your computer, PC or Mac?

Braughm: PC.

John: Yeah, for sure.

Braughm: I’m in the financial industry.

John: Exactly. They don’t even teach you what a Mac does.

Braughm: I don’t even know what a Mac is.

John: Right, or that it exists. How about a typical breakfast?

Braughm: Eggs and toast.

John: Eggs and toast. Nice.

Braughm: Yeah.

John: Solid. There you go. How about a favorite ice cream flavor? I’m a huge ice cream junkie.

Braughm: Dutch chocolate.

John: Oh, nice. There you go, a little added Dutchness.

Braughm: Yeah, get the dark chocolate.

John: Yeah, a little bit richer in there. How about more talk or text?

Braughm: Text.

John: Text. There you go. We should have just typed out our interview. That would have been.

Braughm: Yeah, so we don’t talk to each other. Yeah, exactly.

John: Everyone just read it. It’s all good. It’ll be transcribed at the bottom. How about balance sheet or income statement?

Braughm: Oh, income statement.

John: Income statement, just show me the number. There it is. Boom. We’ve got four more. How about your first concert?

Braughm: Oh, this is a little bit embarrassing but B-52s.

John: Oh, that’s awesome, The Love Shack. There you go.

Braughm: Exactly. Yeah, my brother took me.

John: That’s awesome. Very cool. Very cool. How about a favorite number?

Braughm: Three or five, or a combination thereof.

John: Okay. Is there a reason?

Braughm: Just like threes and fives.

John: Yeah. Okay. Then 35 and 53.

Braughm: 53, yeah.

John: Okay, all right. I like it. How about books, audio version, e-book or real book? Real book? Yeah, because you can feel it.

Braughm: Yeah, you can take it with you. It’s just, yeah, classic feel.

John: Right, exactly. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Braughm: Well, my cars.

John: There you go. I was going to say. That’s probably going to be the answer, which leads right into the conversation. How did this get started? Did you grow up always wanting, I mean, I had a Lamborghini poster when I was a kid, type of thing and stuff like that?

Braughm: Yeah. I’ve always had a passion for cars. My walls were plastered with tear-outs of various car magazines. It’s always been that way.

John: Were your parents into it, or it was just you were always into it and then took it the next step?

Braughm: It was actually my grandfather. He was obsessed with Mercedes and just had a whole collection of them. It was always inherent in me, but he really helps for it.

John: Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because it starts out as Matchbox cars and then now that we have adult money, it’s real cars.

Braughm: Exactly.

John: There you go. That’s so cool. Is there a theme to them, or is it just anything that you like?

Braughm: Yeah, there’s definitely a couple of themes, and one theme being SUVs. I have a penchant for SUVs and classic SUVs. Also, going back to one of your earlier questions, blue. My kids even make fun of me for how many blue cars I own.

John: That’s great. That’s so cool. That’s awesome. Mostly blue, classic SUVs, okay, there you go. That’s awesome, man. Is it just buying them and then driving them? Or you also get under the hood and tinker a little bit?

Braughm: Yeah, it’s a lot of tinkering, a lot of planning, a lot of upgrading and then also building.

John: Wow.

Braughm: One of the most fun projects that we’re doing is, my son and I, my oldest, he and I are building a kit car. We’re literally putting every single bolt on, every rivet, everything. It’s an absolute blast to get into a car at that level.

John: Yeah. It’s a kit that shows up at your, I mean, it’s similar to when you were a kid with the plastic model, except for it’s something you’re actually going to ride in.

Braughm: Right, right. Yeah, it’s similar to a really complex Lego.

John: Right. Yeah. That’s so cool, man. That’s awesome, and it’s got to be really fun as a father-son bonding, sort of thing, and all that.

Braughm: Absolutely, yeah. We really put a lot of research into it, in terms of what kit, what to do, which car we want to build. We also went to a build school. The company that makes the kit car that we chose, has a build school out in Detroit. We went there for three days and built one with a bunch of other guys from all over the country.

John: That’s awesome.

Braughm: Too, just to make sure that it’s something that we felt like we could do. From there, we’re like, yeah, absolutely, let’s do it. Yeah, we bought it right there.

John: Yeah, that makes total sense because you don’t need people not knowing what they’re doing and then going down the interstate on a car they made, and the wheels fall off or whatever.

Braughm: Yeah, something falls off. That might be a little dangerous.

John: Exactly. Exactly. That’s super cool. So, what kind of car is it that you guys are building?

Braughm: We’re building a kit Shelby Cobra.

John: Nice.

Braughm: Yeah. It will not be slow. It will not be extremely safe, but it will be extremely fun.

John: Right, which is what we’re going for.

Braughm: Right. Yeah, and it will be blue.

John: And it will be blue.

Braughm: Yeah.

John: Do you have to paint it as well?

Braughm: Yes, we have to get it painted as well. We’re nearing the point now, we’ve been working on it for about a year and a half, and we’re nearing the point now where we take it to the body shop.

John: Oh, okay. Yeah, so the end is near then, I would imagine.

Braughm: Yep. Absolutely. Which is good because my oldest is going off to college in a month.

John: Right. Just in time for you to be able to drive it.

Braughm: Right. Exactly.

John: Thanks for helping build it. No, that’s super awesome, man. Do you feel at all that building a car or even just being into cars gives you a skill that translates to your career?

Braughm: Yeah, absolutely. I look at what we’ve done with my company for the last nine years, and my entire team, is very much a build project. There are a lot of corollaries between what I do in my spare time as to what I do in my professional time. That building theme is very much a commonality between the two, of building the company, step by step by step. Obviously, you don’t have an instruction guide or an instruction manual to walk you through.

John: It will be awesome if there was.

Braughm: Yeah, seriously, right? The instruction manual for the car is 500-something pages long. Who knows how long it would be for a company build, right?

John: Right.

Braughm: It is very similar. There are a lot of corollaries.

John: Yeah. That’s interesting because at no point in your education, did anyone say, hey, learn how to build a car because it’ll make you a better founder and CEO of a company.

Braughm: Right. Right. Yeah, but very similar, when you’re building a company, you’re going to hit roadblocks. You’re going to hit issues where you really don’t know the answer, and you have to sit back and research it and figure it out on your own. Even with the instruction manual for building a car, is pretty much the same way. Kit cars aren’t perfect. There are a lot of things that don’t fit right together. There are a lot of things that, okay, this isn’t the best part. Let’s go and research and find a better part. There’s a lot of the same mentality that goes into hitting those roadblocks and how to address them as well.

John: That’s interesting. Something I hadn’t really thought about before, but you’re exactly right. Imagine if there was a manual. That would be great.

Braughm: It will be nice.

John: It would be stupid long. It would be like the whole encyclopedia because well, what if this and what if that and what if this? You’ve started it from the beginning, so you’ve experienced all of the what-ifs. It’s crazy town.

Braughm: Yeah, and they come every day.

John: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Are the cars, is this something that you talk about at work that coworkers know about or colleagues know about?

Braughm: Yeah, I would say some know about it, for sure. I’ve definitely referenced, when talking to the team about building the company, I definitely reference car building and that sort of thing. Yeah, there’s a lot more to it behind that, just in terms of the collecting and such, but I think that build component is very much a really interesting data point to talk about.

John: Yeah, for sure. Because sometimes it’s like, well, it doesn’t have anything to do with the job, so some people feel like, well, I’m not going to talk about it or whatever. You’re not shouting it from the rooftops. It’s not the leading, hi, I collect cars. Oh, yeah, by the way, my name is also Braughm, something like that. It’s, if it comes up, it comes up. If somebody else is talking about cars, you’re like, hey, I know a little bit about that. That’s awesome. Have you come across anybody, whether it’s clients or even throughout your career that have also been into cars?

Braughm: Absolutely. Yeah. My favorite is when, in this world of Zoom, we get little glimpses into people’s work environments. A lot of people have the fake backgrounds or whatever, but a lot of people don’t. My background, obviously, you can see it, but you can’t see it on the podcast. My background, I’ve got a model Land Rover Defender, which I have a real life version of. I’ve got a model classic Ford Bronco, which I also have a real life version of. It spurs a lot of the conversation. They’re there on my shelf, behind my camera, because I like them, and I like to see them. Also, I like that it spurs that conversation sometimes.

John: Yeah. No, that’s great. Because that’s the thing, the little bit of silver lining to this whole working remotely now is that we’ve all been in each other’s homes. We’ve been able to see those things. They bring me joy. That’s why they’re there. They’re also there for you to ask about it. It’s like, hey, what’s with the model Bronco? It’s like, let me tell you.

Braughm: Right. Exactly.

John: Do you have a model OJ that fits in the model Bronco? No, you don’t. Okay.

Braughm: I purposely don’t have an OJ version of the Bronco.

John: It’s blue. It’s also blue, everybody, just so you know.

Braughm: Yeah, it’s not white.

John: Right. Right. Exactly. That’s super cool, man. It’s interesting to hear just how people pick up on that and then you can pick up on theirs. That’s really neat. How much do you feel it’s on an organization to create this sandbox, if you will, for people to play in, to share their “ands”? Versus, how much is it on the individual to maybe just start in a small group?

Braughm: Yeah, I think you’re right that it is hard to just open up about what your hobby is, that’s what I’m saying, unless you’re very overt about it just naturally. Because a lot of this is, I think a lot of people feel there are two parts of my life. There’s the professional piece, and then there’s the personal piece. That “and” really is very much in the personal piece, but I think there’s a lot of value to having a crossover there and thinking through or being able to talk about it more at work. What are your hobbies, what do you like to do and that sort of thing. We try to bring that out in our team. We we ask them upfront, and we try to highlight that in our internal bios, so that people can get a more personalized feel for each of their team members, which is also really crucial for us because we are historically, we’ve always been a distributed team. Obviously, everybody else is living our world that we’ve been living for nine years now, so it’s a little bit more crucial for us to try to pull that out a little bit more.

John: Yeah, that’s an excellent point because you can’t really create the connections over just work. It doesn’t have to get creepy deep, but just one step deep, below surface level. That’s interesting to hear that that’s in the real world, too, than just in my bubble head.

Braughm: Yeah.

John: But that it works.

Braughm: It does. It helps. Yeah.

John: Yeah. I would imagine that people that are in person that are listening, that’s going to help even more then, so it’s even more crucial. Yeah, that’s interesting. That’s a good point. Yeah. Because I feel like, sometimes, people feel they’re permission-based. They’re like, well, they didn’t say we could talk about our outside-of-work hobby ever. It’s like, yeah, but they never said you couldn’t. If it comes up, why not? Just share.

Braughm: Yeah, and we really want to get over that feeling of not knowing if you can talk about it or not, so we’re just very overtly asked.

John: Yeah. That’s great. Because then it’s not only is it permitted, it’s actually almost required. We’re asking you, so tell us. Do you have any words of encouragement to people that are listening that maybe feel like, well, I have a hobby, but it has nothing to do with my job, like cars and accounting or something like that?

Braughm: Yeah, they’re ancillary to each other. They’re in conflict, if you will. You’re spending money on an asset that depreciates, unless it’s one of those really unique ones that actually appreciates.

John: Right. Exactly.

Braughm: Yeah, so they don’t really go hand in hand. The building part, it’s a nice corollary now, but it wasn’t always that way. It was just passion for cars, period, in general. I think that just being comfortable with talking about what sort of things you enjoy. Obviously, it doesn’t have to be one item that defines you. Cars is just probably one of my bigger passions. There are a bunch of others, but that is one of the ones that maybe is close to an obsession, so, close to the top, naturally.

John: Yeah, but it’s something that lights you up. You get excited about, you talk about. You think and breathe it. As the founder of a company, it’s probably a similar thing because you’re the founder, but not everybody’s a founder of something.

Braughm: Right.

John: They’re not thinking and breathing it, 24/7, type of thing. It’s cool to have something else and find out what that is.

Braughm: Yeah, things that really drive you, things that really, you get fixated on, and also things that have more meaning to them than maybe just on the surface. For me, the classic Bronco, the ‘66 Bronco I have, that’s the kind of car that I learned to drive on, at my grandfather’s farm, when I was 12. It has more meaning to it than that. My classic Land Rover Defender, I had pictures of Defenders, my entire life. It was always the one car I was completely fixated on, and I finally have one. It’s about having those goals, setting those goals and achieving them, both professionally and in life.

John: That’s awesome, man. Because I would imagine that achieving something outside of work, probably motivates you just as a person that then accidentally also motivates you, work-wise, as well. You can’t have one without the other. That’s what’s so interesting to me is how people try to have only work all the time as their only thing. It’s like, you have to have the other side, or you’re just not going to be as successful.

Braughm: Yeah, it’s an easy way to get burnt out, too. Right?

John: Oh, yeah.

Braughm: Yeah. You definitely want to have that balance. Yeah, those hobbies and those interests outside of work definitely drive overall success, I think.

John: Yeah, I agree. It’s just interesting how our default mode is only work, talk about work. Anything that’s not work-related is too far. It’s like, no, not really because as a founder, you hired the whole person, not just the technical skills part, so we’ve got to nurture the whole person, type of thing. It sounds like you’re doing that, which is cool.

Braughm: Yeah. I’ll go on and on about work, but as soon as somebody flips that switch for me, talking about cars, I’m gone. I have to remember to reel myself back in because then all of a sudden, I’ve spent 90% of the scheduled time on something other than work-related.

John: Right. So what was this meeting about anyway? All right.

Braughm: Exactly.

John: That’s what it is. We all have that thing, at least one of those things, that if somebody flips that switch, it’s on. That’s cool, man. It’s cool to hear that it’s something that does come up and that you share it and that there’s positive benefits from that, which is always cool to hear. This has been great. Before I wrap it up, I figured it’s only fair that I turn the tables because I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning. We’ll make this the, why not, the first episode of the Braughm Ricke podcast. Thanks for having me on.

Braughm: I’m always interested, to you, what is the most interesting “and” you have heard in one of these interviews?

John: Oh, wow. Not trying to dodge, they’re all interesting to me. It would be like asking you, what’s your favorite kid or your favorite dog?

Braughm: Fair enough.

John: They’re all good in a different way. Some of them are just like racing vintage motorcycles or making kombucha or ballroom dancing. I had a guy who’s a managing partner of a firm in Louisville, Kentucky, who loves to rollerblade. He goes to a skate park and rollerblades.

Braughm: That’s awesome.

John: He’s in his 50s. It’s just people that are alive. It’s just so cool to see. Just, it’s the Instagram page you just scroll through. It’s just such a variety of things. The coolest part is they’re all smiling, and they’re happy. You go to their business profile page and that head shot, not always that big of a smile.

Braughm: I can also appreciate that you said Louisville correctly, considering that that’s where, actually, where I was born.

John: Oh, you were. Oh, yeah, you have to say it like you have a bunch of marbles in your mouth.

Braughm: Exactly.

John: Louisville.

Braughm: Louisville. Yeah. I guess one other question, what’s your favorite kind of car?

John: My favorite kind of car, actually, my first car when I was a kid was my mom’s 1968 Mustang.

Braughm: Amazing.

John: Yeah, that was pretty cool. I don’t know. I’ve always been a Ferrari guy, I guess. I just tend to, if I could, in case you come across one, and it’s a buy-one-get-one-free.

Braughm: Sure, I’ll grab one for you.

John: I don’t care. It could be blue even. It’ll be fine. I don’t even know. Do they make them?

Braughm: Yeah. They make a nice blue, yeah.

John: Okay. All right. We’ll be the only two blue cars out there.

Braughm: Yep, totally.

John: That must be a kit Ferrari. No, it’s real. Cool, man. Well, this has been awesome, Braughm. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”?

Braughm: Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me on.

John: For sure, and everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Braughm’s collection or him building his car or what have you, maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 425 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book, also called What’s Your “And”? on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read the book to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture, and I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures wherever they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Jervis DiCicco. He’s the CEO of ProsperBridge, and now he’s with me here today. Jervis, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Jervis: John, it’s a pleasure to be here.

John: This is going to be awesome. I’m so excited for this. I have 17 rapid-fire questions, get to know Jervis out of the gate here. I’ll start you out with a pretty easy one, I think. Favorite day of the week.

Jervis: Ooh, not as easy as you would think.

John: Okay.

Jervis: Gosh, this is going to be unpopular, but I’m going to say Monday.

John: Monday. Oh, is there a reason?

Jervis: Yeah, I love work. I absolutely adore my family, but when the weekend’s over, I’m ready to be back and have some alone time in front of my computer.

John: Okay, that makes total sense. I’m all for that. Okay. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw?

Jervis: Crossword.

John: Crossword. Okay. All right. How about a favorite color?

Jervis: Go blue.

John: Oh, that’s not a good answer at all. How about a least favorite color?

Jervis: Well, I would say gold just to bother you, but I have to go with red.

John: I figured it would have been Spartan green.

Jervis: No, no, no. Ohio State is the real rival.

John: That’s the real rival. There you go.

Jervis: Yeah, Michigan State just happens to be in the same state.

John: There you go. There you go. All right, I hear you. Fair enough. Fair enough. How about cats or dogs?

Jervis: Dogs.

John: Dogs.

Jervis: Dogs, and I’m offended by the question.

John: There you go. Oh, my goodness. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Jervis: Ooh, that’s one of those things that’s always in flux. My long term answer, body of work, is Robert De Niro.

John: Oh, yeah.

Jervis: But right now, I am absolutely loving Schitt’s Creek and also Peaky Blinders, so, Cillian Murphy, and I think it’s David Levy. I think that’s his actual name, the son in Schitt’s Creek.

John: Yeah, yeah, Eugene Levy’s son.

Jervis: Son.

John: In real life, yeah yeah. Good answers, very good answers. This is a fun one. Someone asked me this one, and I like to flip it around is socks or shoes.

Jervis: Slippers.

John: Slippers. Okay, there you go. Nice. That’s a good answer. That’s a very good answer. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Jervis: Star Wars.

John: Yeah. Now, I’m double offended.

Jervis: Yeah. I’m ready to hang up.

John: Right. Your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Jervis: Well, I prefer Macs, but I work on a PC.

John: Okay. All right. All right, there you go. How about suit and tie or jeans and a T-shirt?

Jervis: Neither one. A full zip sweater and these days, sweat pants.

John: Okay, there you go. Now you’re bragging. Now you’re bragging. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Jervis: Oh, that is brutally tough. I love ice cream. I’m sort of an ice cream aficionado. For me, it has to be chunky. Don’t give me chocolate or vanilla. I will throw either of them on the ground. I think the favorite flavor, and this is cheating because I made it, it’s toasted coconut with almonds and dark chocolate chips.

John: Oh, there you go. Yeah. No, that sounds really good. I agree on the chunky. How do I get more calories per spoon?

Jervis: Yeah, exactly. Right?

John: In my face. Yeah, something to chew on. Yeah yeah, totally. I guess you already answered this one. I was going to ask TV show you’d binge-watch.

Jervis: Both Schitt’s Creek and Peaky Blinders are the two that I have been into as of late.

John: Yeah. No, those are solid answers, solid. How about your first concert?

Jervis: Oh, man, that’s tough to remember. It was either Rusted Root.

John: Oh, yeah. Okay.

Jervis: Or Billy Joel. I’m not sure which of those two very disparate answers is correct. I think it was Rusted Root.

John: Very cool. I like that. Since you’re the finance background, stocks or bonds.

Jervis: Oh, gosh, neither. That’s another long conversation.

John: Okay. All right. Fair enough. How about a favorite number?

Jervis: You know what, this is so strange. Being an athlete, almost all athletes have a favorite number. I changed my number between high school and college, probably six or seven times because I really just don’t have one. I’ve even tried. I coached myself. Okay, I love ten. I’m going to love ten. I really don’t have a favorite number.

John: All right, all right. I figured it was going to be zero and the number of national championships Bo Schembechler has won. No, I’m kidding, man. I’m kidding.

Jervis: Oh, don’t go there.

John: I’m teasing, man. Just had to fire back. Two more, two more. Books, audio version, e-book or real book.

Jervis: E-book.

John: E-book. Okay. All right. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Jervis: Yeah, so this is a strange answer. It’s a hat with a pin on it, and the pin is the award. It’s an award I won at the summer camp I attended for 19 summers.

John: Wow.

Jervis: It’s called the A Camper Award, and it’s basically an embodiment of leadership qualities and outdoor skills.

John: Wow. Okay. Does the pin, is it like a lifetime achievement sort of a pin, or is it every year, there’s somebody gets one type of thing?

Jervis: Yes. Every year, as many people as earn it, can get it. It’s typically one to three, each summer, earn it, and you have to re-earn it consistently. It’s like an ongoing thing.

John: Okay. That’s impressive, man. That’s very cool. That’s an excellent answer and dovetails perfectly in the outdoor stuff, caving. How did you get started caving?

Jervis: That’s a great question, a fun story. I was out in San Diego for a good friend of mine, who I actually met at that summer camp, for his wedding in 2003. We were at Joshua Tree for the pre-wedding, you couldn’t really call it a rehearsal anything. We were just hanging out in Joshua Tree the day before the wedding. Joshua Tree is basically, for those of you that haven’t been there, it’s basically just piles of boulders made into mountains. It almost looks like God was just chucking pebbles for a while and making these piles. You can go climb around on the rocks. It’s a great place to climb in Boulder. My buddy noticed that I really enjoyed finding routes from the bottom of the pile to the top that went through the pile instead of just over the pile, which is what everybody else does. He’s like, “You should try caving.” Because he had just gone on a NOLS trip, it was a full semester and included two weeks of caving. I was like, let’s do it. That’s it.

John: That’s awesome, man. So that was the first one?

Jervis: Yeah. We weren’t really caving in Joshua Tree. There are no caves there. That got us excited about planning a trip. We planned a trip and executed our first trip about 10 months later.

John: Oh, okay.

Jervis: We went to Nevada and caved in Southern Nevada and Great Basin National Park.

John: Very cool. Do you have a favorite or a group of favorites of caves that you’re like, oh, yeah, these are definitely, if anybody’s interested, you’ve got to go to, or ones that you’d go back to?

Jervis: Well, if anybody’s interested, they should start with something easy, to see how much they like it. My favorite caves, and there are several, Horsethief Cave and Bighorn Cave, which are technically one cave, but they have separate entrances. Again, supposedly, they connect, but I’ve never found the connection. Those are both right at the border of Wyoming and Montana. They’re about a two-minute walk from each other, the entrances. One is in Wyoming, and the other is in Montana. They’re right on the border.

John: Interesting.

Jervis: Then Crystal Cave in southeast Arizona, and Crystal Cave, that’s a very common name, Crystal Cave in Sequoia National Park.

John: Okay. They’re such cool names. It’s like, I want to go right now. Crystal Cave? Horsethief Cave? Of course, we’re going.

Jervis: Horsethief Cave, John, has, in the back of it, in the way, way way back. We’re talking, if you know exactly where you’re going, it’s about a three-hour trip.

John: Oh, wow.

Jervis: It has a fully articulated skeleton of a prehistoric horse. This is a horse that’s the size of a large cat that could climb trees. You look at it. You’re like, oh, that’s a cat. You look closely, and the head is clearly a horse head. It has has no canines or fangs, just molars. It’s a tiny little horse that could climb trees and eat leaves.

John: That’s amazing. Three hours in or three hours around?

Jervis: Yeah, way, way back, three hours in.

John: Wow, that’s nutty. Is it like rappelling down? Or is it, you walk in? It’s not like a hike underground. There’s some work involved here.

Jervis: Some caves are horizontal, meaning, you walk in or crawl in. Some caves are vertical, meaning, you rappel in. Many caves have a vertical element in them, regardless of how you get in, so they’re very hard to find. You see in movies, people walking into this gigantic hole on the side of a mountain.

John: Right.

Jervis: While that does occasionally occur; most of the time, it’s like a manhole cover-sized hole that’s got a bush over the top of it, or is tucked up in, eight feet above you. You’ve got to scramble up and wiggle your body into this hole. It’s very hard to find the entrances if you don’t have precise directions or a GPS location. Then, yeah, once you get in, it’s the part where you’re hiking around. We call that walkie-fastie. That’s our technical term for when you can actually stand up and walk.

John: That’s funny.

Jervis: Sometimes you’re full on belly crawling and barely squeezing through spaces. Other times you’re rock climbing up the side of a 60-foot wall inside of a cave. One of the cool parts about caving is you can squeeze your body through a hole, it barely fits through, and that opens into a room the size of Notre Dame. It’s like this huge, amazing room. Then sometimes below you, there’s a canyon that goes down further than your light will go. It’s a really spectacular environment.

John: Yeah. Are there maps of these? Clearly, there must be some research done before you just go in, Indiana Jones style.

Jervis: Yeah, yeah. There are maps of many caves. We have never done a cave, the first time we went in, with a map. We always go into a cave without knowing what’s in there and where it is. Because one of the most fun things for us is the exploration aspect of you discovering that random hole that leads to that huge room or that huge passage or that huge section of cave. If you want to do something like find the horse in the back of Horsethief Cave, you better have a map.

John: Yeah, I was going to say, some of that stuff, yeah.

Jervis: Yeah, it would have taken us days to find that.

John: Yeah. It’s like, should we keep going? Are you sure that’s really a thing? That’s so cool to hear. There’s just so many different adventures. It sounds like it combines a lot of things. It’s the hiking. It’s the rappelling. It’s the rock climbing. Then you add in the the army crawling, just for fun. There’s a helmet and equipment. What kind of gear?

Jervis: Yeah, most essential gear is a helmet and headlamp. You want to wear gloves and body covering. Anything you leave in a cave is there, pretty much, indefinitely. That’s why there’s that skeleton of that horse in the back of Horsethief Cave. So, you don’t want to get your skin oil on the cave, as little as possible. Right after a helmet and headlamp would be knee pads and elbow pads. You definitely want some cushion for when you’re squeezing yourself through tight rock. It’s nice to not be mashing up your knees and elbows. Now for vertical caving, there’s a whole other suite of gear you need, in addition to a harness and a rappel rack. You need ascending gear as well, and I’m not going to get into that boring stuff.

John: Oh, yeah.

Jervis: You’re ascending out of a cave. It’s very often a free hang. There’s no climbing involved. You’re just going up a rope with an ascension system that basically cavers, climbers and people that cut down trees are the only ones that understand this.

John: And sixth grade gym teachers.

Jervis: Yeah, sixth grade, now they’re climbing those big thick ropes.

John: Those big, fat ropes, right.

Jervis: To measure how much of a human being you are. Are you presidential, or do you suck?

John: Exactly, the presidential physical fitness test.

Jervis: Yeah. Right?

John: You get to the top, and you press it. There’s electric, like the static. It’s like, zzzt. It’s like, ah! I’ll just do the pegboard.

Jervis: Yeah. We didn’t have static at the top of our rope. I don’t know if that was a special torture for you.

John: Probably. John Garrett’s on there. Let’s do it.

Jervis: Yeah, it very much felt like, if you can do this, then you can be the president. If you can’t, you’re going to be a janitor.

John: Yeah, that’s the way they painted it. Right.

Jervis: Yeah, absolutely.

John: It’s sit and stretch on a box. Or maybe just, they were training everyone to be cavers. Maybe that’s secretly what their plan was.

Jervis: Yeah. If that was how we ascended out of caves, the biggest ascent that we’ve done was a 300-foot ascent.

John: Holy cow! That’s amazing.

Jervis: I’m certain I could not have done that on the gym rope.

John: Yeah. You had to stop and eat lunch, halfway up. That’s far.

Jervis: It took one of us 42 minutes to do that. I’m not going to say which one.

John: Right. That’s awesome. Do you feel like, at all, I mean, you don’t obviously cave to get better at your job, but do you feel like caving gives you any sort of skill set or mindset that you bring to work?

Jervis: Absolutely. I think the biggest thing, there are lots of things. I don’t know how long we have. The biggest thing is definitely a risk matrix. Caves are very, very dangerous places to be. You’ve probably seen at some point in the news, people getting stuck in caves, getting lost in caves, getting trapped in caves. You need to be constantly assessing risk. It’s basically a two axes decision, and this applies to every area of life. There’s your consequences of failure axis. If I don’t execute what I’m trying to execute, what’s going to happen to me? Is it death? The last cave that I was in, last month, there’s a traverse along a wall, a ledge, that’s probably, I don’t know, at its widest point, maybe it’s 18 inches. To your right, off that traverse, should you fall, is about a 50-foot free-fall. We would call that a very high consequence of failure, potentially fatal. Okay?

John: Yeah.

Jervis: You compare that axis with your chances of failure. If it’s a low chance of failure, we looked at that traverse, and we figured out that the handholds were secure and stable and pretty comfortable. We said, okay, we’re going to do this because, well, obviously, the consequences of failure are high, the chances of failure are extremely low. You look at every decision in a cave, through that matrix. Because also, if you get hurt in a cave, it’s very difficult to get you out of the cave.

John: Yeah, I can imagine. That’s such a great thing for life, really, yet it applies to work. That’s a muscle that you’re exercising every time you go caving. It becomes a quicker process and a more refined process, so then when you’re at work, you can apply that, and vice versa. I imagine, at work, you’re doing the same thing. You’re just getting better and faster at the same thing.

Jervis: You got it, absolutely. Again, it’s a simple equation, chances versus consequences, but it makes you really want to dive into how you analyze decisions. Because there’s the flip side of that, the more positive side of that matrix would be your chances of success versus your outcomes of success. You can flip it around and say, okay, if I do this thing, that might increase my business, ten times, but it’s really expensive. The chances of success are really low. I might not engage with that thing, even though I got really excited at the outcome possibilities.

John: Right. Yeah. It reminds me, when I was in college, I took a class on decision trees. I just love that because you’re just looking at all the alternatives and the percentage likelihood of them and then the outcomes. It’s just you don’t have a whiteboard in the cave to draw it all out, at the time.

Jervis: Yeah. I would not have guessed, by the way, John, that you were the guy in college that likes that class.

John: Well, it was the least technical class that I took, outside of the philosophy and the theology stuff. It was like, oh, good. It’s not a balance sheet? Okay, awesome. There’s no cash flow statement in this class? All right, I’m all for it.

Jervis: Nice. Nice.

John: Yeah. So, is caving something that you’ve talked about in your career, with colleagues or clients?

Jervis: Yeah. It’s probably my favorite thing to talk about in the world. I often, aggressively, keep myself from talking about it because it’s not an experience a lot of people can relate to. A lot of people find it frightening and horrifying, so it’s not something I often lead with.

John: Sure.

Jervis: But it is something, when I do it, I love to share it. The camaraderie aspect, what I love most about caving is there are four of us that have been doing it together for a long time. We’re guaranteed to get great physical exercise, hiking, climbing, rappelling, ascending, squeezing, crawling. We’re guaranteed to have privacy. It is not a popular sport, and it’s not an easy — like I said, you don’t just find your way into a cave. Or that doesn’t happen frequently, anyway. You’re all in a pretty intense situation together that you’re exploring together. You’re finding new things. You’re using each other to help problem-solve, and always staying connected, at least being able to hear one another. If someone goes and scouts in one direction, and someone else goes and scouts the other direction, you always make sure there’s someone in between that can hear both of them to be the liaison there. It’s an amazing opportunity for camaraderie. I learned at a young age that putting people in, I don’t want to say extreme situations, but in really intense situations, builds relationship faster. I think that that’s also something that I’ve carried over to work.

John: No, it’s so true. The privacy thing, I never really thought about that, but you’re so right. It’s just quiet, and it’s just us.

Jervis: Yep.

John: That’s awesome. You can go at your own pace. You don’t feel like you’re slowing anyone up, or you’re not being held back by someone who’s brand new that’s in front of you or whatever. That’s cool, man. That is cool. Have you come across any other cavers or people in work that you’ve talked with that are like, hey, I’d like to do that, or tell me more?

Jervis: Yeah. Rarely have I had someone say, I’d like to do that. Your reaction is actually pretty unique. Most of the time, the reaction is, why would you want to do that?

John: Holy cow! Really?

Jervis: Yeah. That is definitely the most common reaction to, I’m a caver. Or they’ll say, oh, you like to go spelunking, which is not the correct terminology.

John: What’s the difference, for the people listening.

Jervis: Yeah, I’m glad you asked because I can’t wait to answer. I think the way to describe the difference is someone that wakes up in the morning and jogs for 10 minutes versus a marathoner.

John: Oh.

Jervis: A caver will say that spelunkers are the people we save when they get drunk or lost inside of a cave.

John: Okay, okay, fair enough. Okay.

Jervis: Yeah. For us, it’s a sport. It’s a craft. It’s technical. For them, it’s, let’s go in the spooky cave.

John: Yeah, exactly, like Scooby Doo or something.

Jervis: Yeah, exactly.

John: That’s funny. That’s like the difference between a comedian and a humorist.

Jervis: Yeah, there you go.

John: Where it’s like, don’t ask, don’t ask, please don’t.

Jervis: Someone who thinks they’re funny, and someone who gets paid to be funny.

John: Right, right. Exactly. Laughs per minute. It’s just a humorist will make you smile a couple of times, and a comedian is going to make you laugh six times a minute. You pick. It’s cool to hear that you’ve shared and been able to share. A lot of people, they’re worried of being judged. How much is it on the organization to create that atmosphere where, hey, this is what we do here, we share what lights us up; versus, how much is it on the individual, maybe like in your case, to just, in a small circle, just start sharing that way?

Jervis: Individual courage, I believe ultimately drives the world, but a good employer and a good culture is going to try to pull passion out of people, not just because it makes for fun conversation, or, by the way, an engaged employee, but because it builds a sense of team and culture. You can hear in my voice, how excited I am about caving. When you can activate that in someone, you’re getting to see a part of them, you’re learning something about them, you’re having, again, one of these intense shared experiences where someone is passion dumping. I believe, and you and I talked about this the last time we spoke, that employers really should be making an effort to pull that out of people, actively engaging. If I’m your boss and I find out you love caving, and let’s say I don’t, let’s say I’m the average person who thinks it’s crazy and why would you want to be in a small, dark space with things that might eat you. By the way, there’s nothing that can eat you. There are bats, but nothing that can eat you. I would say to that person, hey, you know what? You’ve got 15 days of PTO this year. Let’s make sure that you’re spending at least five of those doing caving if you love it so much. As a company, how cool would that employee feel, if I then even went to a travel agent or someone who knew something about caving? By the way, you asked about where the cavers are. They’re in groups called grottos. There are two in the Denver area, the Front Range Grotto and the Colorado Grotto. The National Speleological Society is the national organization. So, if I empowered that trip, if I even planned and helped you map out your dream caving trip, how much more would you love to come to work? Little things like that, activating people’s passion creates connection.

John: Yeah, or come back and give a five-minute presentation. Here are some pictures. Here’s the story, a little bit of show and tell. When we were kids, we did it with kid things. Now we’re adults with really awesome stories and adult money. Bring in the cool stuff. Let’s do this.

Jervis: Yeah. My kids, on my older son’s graduation ceremony from pre-K, don’t get me started on whether or not there should be a graduation from pre-K, but they had each kid come up and say what was the thing they loved the most about pre-K. I would say probably 50% of the kids said the swings.

John: There you go.

Jervis: Yeah. My son gave a unique answer that no one else gave. He said lunch.

John: Nice. There you go.

Jervis: Yeah, I couldn’t decide if I was proud or horrified that school lunch was that exciting. Made me think that maybe what we’re feeding them at home is not really up to snuff. It’s just cool to see these kids are just naturally, what do we love? I love swinging. Not one of them said Math, and that’s cool.

John: Yeah. No, it’s super cool. What’s your favorite thing about work? Excel macros? No. Not that. It’s not. Maybe for the one off, okay, but for the other 99.9% of us, it’s the swings or the whatever, lunch.

Jervis: Hanging out.

John: It’s the human side of things.

Jervis: Absolutely. Yeah. It’s funny. When you say Excel macros, my brain goes right to the South Park movie. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen it.

John: Totally. Yeah.

Jervis: The scene where the presentation that the military is giving, fails, and they call Bill Gates in, to question — I’ll leave it there. I won’t spoil the joke.

John: It’s worth the watch.

Jervis: It’s worth the watch. You can YouTube. You don’t need to watch the whole movie.

John: Exactly. No, that is awesome, man, so great. It’s been so fun having you be a part of this. We could do 18 episodes, I feel like. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe feels like they have a hobby or a passion that no one’s going to care about because it has nothing to do with my job?

Jervis: Absolutely. Like I just said, when you share your passion with people, you light up, and that makes them light up. It creates a bond that nothing else can. So, have the individual courage that I just talked about, to step up and share your passion and your hobby, and encourage others to do the same. Because everybody loves to talk about their favorite thing but for some reason, most of us, and this includes me, oftentimes don’t do it. That’s a shame.

John: It doesn’t have to be a shout it from the rooftops every five minutes.

Jervis: No, no, that would be too much.

John: If somebody asks, well, you asked. I’m not forcing it on you. That’s also a great way to lead is just to ask them. Well, mine’s caving. Wait, what?

Jervis: Yeah, exactly. Then they’re like, oh, I can say whatever mine is.

John: Yeah, pretty much, pretty much, except for spelunking or Ohio State football. That’s not a good one either.

Jervis: Yeah, thank you. No, and everybody knows that.

John: Right. Everybody knows that. This has been so much fun. I feel like it’s only fair that I turn the table since I rudely peppered you with rapid-fire questions at the beginning. We’ll make this the first episode of the Jervis DiCicco podcast. Thanks for having me on. I’m all yours, whatever you’ve got.

Jervis: What’s your favorite quote?

John: Oh, my favorite quote. That’s a good one. There’s one that I’m going to have to look up the exact… It was on a subway sign in New York City. When I was going down the stairs, they had a sign above the stairs, and it was something to the effect of, you’re either creating or consuming, so, create with courage.

Jervis: Ooh, I love that.

John: Yeah, and you can apply that in however you want to apply it. Not everyone’s creative, but we’re all creating in our own way. We’re creating our life. You could say, live with courage. It kind of dovetails with what you were saying as well. That’s one that I really like and, yeah, a big fan of that one.

Jervis: Alright, if you could only eat one fruit for the rest of your life, what would you pick?

John: Oh, wow. Probably apple. Probably apple. I’m pretty basic. Watermelon’s so good, though, too, like good watermelon, but apple is versatile. It’s hardy. Actually, when I speak, I often joke about, whatever group I’m speaking to, that apples are very much like professionals. They’re durable. They have a long shelf-life, and over time, they grow round. Not everybody laughs as hard as we do, but that’s hilarious.

Jervis: Yeah, depends on your shape.

John: Exactly, exactly.

Jervis: Last one, favorite movie.

John: Favorite movie. Not to beat a dead horse, but of course, Rudy’s got to be on the list. Goodwill Hunting is a good one, Ace Ventura, Dumb and Dumber. I don’t know. I do enjoy just silly movies.

Jervis: Yeah, yeah. You say Ace Ventura, and that pointed me to a follow-up. Ace Venture 2, where is that in your pantheon of sequels?

John: I’m a massive Jim Carrey fan. It’s hard to think of a better one.

Jervis: Yeah, I love it. I think it’s one of the most underrated movies ever.

John: Yeah. It’s just more of — is that the one when he goes to Africa? There are so many hilarious people that are in that movie, as well, than of other parts. Ace Ventura, it’s such a great story of where they came to him originally with a script, and he’s like, this is terrible. He’s like, the only way I’m doing this is if I read it. At first they were like, no, and then they figured out, yeah, maybe we should. It’s pretty genius.

Jervis: Yeah, it is.

John: You can turn on any part, and it’s pretty hilarious. Yeah, I’m a big fan. Awesome. We’ll have to go caving and then after, watch Ace Ventura 2, and then hang out and eat some ice cream. It sounds pretty awesome.

Jervis: Ice cream and apples.

John: Well, yeah, and some apples.

Jervis: Chunky ice cream.

John: In case there are doctors listening. Right? No, but it’s been so much fun, Jervis, having you be a part of What’s Your “And”? Thanks so much.

Jervis: My pleasure, John.

John: Yeah, and everybody listening if you want to see some pictures of Jervis in action in these caves, or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. Don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing to the podcast on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.