Author: johng

Welcome to Episode 477 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, and a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and thank you writing such nice reviews on Amazon and Good Reads and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And if you ever wanna be on the show, don’t hesitate to reach out ‘cause I’d love to share your stories as well. But week is no different with my guest, Ale Spray. She’s the business development manager in Mortenson’s Denver office. And now, she’s here with me today. Ale, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Ale: Thank you, John. I’m so excited so I can cross it out of my bucket list. I’m in a podcast of a famous person. So, done. Cross it out.

John: Oh, you’re so kind. Thank you, Ale. No. I’m so excited. We first met virtually. You were part of a book club that I jumped in on who was reading What’s Your “And”? and then I was like I would love to have you on the podcast. And then I asked again and then you’re like “Okay, fine, I’ll do it.”

Ale: I was stars struck. We were in our virtual book club and our friend, Chris, is like I have a special guest, and there you are, and we’re like “Oh, my God!” So, we’re all excited. Like we head over. So, I keep telling that story. So, yeah, thank you. And like I say, now I can cross it off my list. I have been invited in a famous person’s podcast. Ale achieved it.

John: Well, thank you so much. I feel like I’m famous to like 20 people, but it’s all good. It’s all good. You’re about to be famous too. So, that’s awesome. Yeah, it can be done. But I feel like this is a get to know Ale right out of the gate here with my 17 rapid-fire questions. So, this is gonna be so fun. This is a pretty easy one I think. Cats or dogs?

Ale: Dogs.

John: Dogs. Yeah. Me too.

Ale: Definitely dogs. Yeah.

John: Yeah. How about when it comes to puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw?

Ale: Ooh, I’m horrible at both. As a second language in English, sometimes I’m so stuck with those.

John: So, maybe jigsaw puzzle because it’s a picture?

Ale: Yeah. Maybe that will help me because it is a puzzle. Yeah, let’s go with that one. No crossword.

John: That’s funny. How about a favorite color?

Ale: Oh, that will be black. It slims everything. It hides a lot of stuff. Stains, curves, anything. Black.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so awesome. How about a least favorite color?

Ale: I will say purple. I don’t think it’s my color. It’s beautiful. It’s a royal color. It’s the color of royalty, but it doesn’t go with me as much as I want it. It’s like maybe I’m not having any royal blood in myself, but that’s the hand I take.

John: Right. That’s awesome. Okay. That’s an easy one. Favorite adult beverage.

Ale: Oh, adult beverage. I like, of course, margaritas.

John: There we go. All right. That’s an easy one. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Ale: I would say I always love watching Sidney Poitier. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yes. She is amazing when she did that To Sir, with Love. It was one of my favorites. And I think favorite actress I will say Meryl Streep. She’s always funny and she’s a chameleon, so yes.

John: Oh, so good in everything. Yeah. Totally. Totally. How about more of a shower or bath?

Ale: Oh, shower. Bath, I just waste water. I don’t have time. It’s just like I cannot sit back and just do nothing.

John: Right? The whole time, you’re like I’m supposed to be relaxing, but I’m thinking of everything I’m supposed to be doing.

Ale: Nah-uh, I can’t.

John: Okay. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Ale: Oh, Stars Wars. There’s nothing besides Star Wars and the originals. Let’s go with the originals. Episode 4, 5, and 6. That’s it.

John: Yeah. Exactly. No. I haven’t even seen anything beyond that because I even heard good things so I’m like “You know what? I don’t wanna ruin it.”

Ale: Don’t ruin it.

John: Yeah. There you go. How about books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Ale: Real book. There’s something about, I mean, turning the page, going back, highlighting. I still do some library books. Mailing the books is like “Oh, God.” Yeah. Yeah. Real books, yes.

John: Yeah. Exactly. There’s an experience with it that’s more than just the reading. Yeah. Yeah. How about a favorite number?

Ale: 9.

John: 9. Is there a reason?

Ale: I was born in September in the 9th month. I was born in the 27. So, 2 + 7 is 9. So, it’s just I believe 9 is something lucky for me, but just 9.

John: Very good. As long as it’s not a purple 9, we’re good. Right? How about your computer? More of a PC or a Mac?

Ale: Oh, I’m a PC. I have an Apple phone. I think I’m Apple challenged.

John: I love that phrase.

Ale: Yeah. I’m Apple challenged. Yeah.

John: I’m Apple challenged as well. Yeah. Definitely. How about your first concert?

Ale: Oh, my first concert, gosh, that’s a good memory there. I think it was a Spanish singer, Miguel Jose. Maybe. Yeah, back in Mexico. Yes.

John: As a kid?

Ale: I was a teenager. Yeah.

John: Oh, nice.

Ale: Yeah. He’s my favorite singer. He’s from Spain. One day, I wish to go to— He doesn’t come to the United States anymore. I mean, he has never come to United States, but I saw a couple of his concerts when I lived in Mexico. He’s my favorite.

John: Very cool. That’s great. That’s very cool. How about are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Ale: You know, I’m a night owl. I could stay up late, but I can’t get up early. And I don’t drink coffee, so that surprises a lot of people because I don’t drink coffee and I can still be upbeat and get ready to go at 6 in the morning. I wake up. I would go to bed at 1 in the morning. It’s just I can be both.

John: Yeah. Yeah. We can do margaritas in the morning. There’s no time on that.

Ale: There’s no right time for margaritas.

John: Exactly. I don’t drink coffee either. I somehow missed that boat. I don’t know, but yeah I know. All right. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Ale: Vanilla.

John: Oh, vanilla. All right. Just straight old school vanilla.

Ale: Straight old good vanilla. Yes. I’m pretty boring. Lately, one of my favorite flavors is dulce de leche. It’s like a caramel. Haagen-Dazs makes the best one, so yeah. But it’s a hard one to find.

John: That’s a good option. How about a favorite day of the week?

Ale: I will say Saturday because you still have that energy from, you know— It’s not Sunday that you have to prepare mostly. Saturday you can still do a lot of stuff. And I have done a lot of my biking on Saturday, so yes.

John: Oh. Well then, there we go. That’s exactly the best day. There you go. And since you have the engineering background, I’ll ask you buildings or bridges?

Ale: I love bridges. There’s a lot of metaphor with the bridges connecting towns, connecting communities. Even traveling in a bridge that has been that majestic over a river is just— Buildings are amazing. But bridges is, like I say, you can take the metaphor of what it means to have a bridge connecting those communities.

John: Yeah. I know. You’re exactly right. I mean I lived in New York City for a long time. And you know, you had the Brooklyn Bridge especially. I mean, it looks magnificent, but it’s 2 pieces of land that were not supposed to be connected that man came along and said “Nope, we’re connecting them.”

Ale: The Golden Gate is in my bucket list too.

John: Oh, yeah. Golden Gate Bridge is very cool too. Yeah. Fun fact: They never stopped painting it. Like once they get to the end, it’s time to start painting the beginning again. They’re painting it like all the time. Like they never stop painting the Golden Gate Bridge.

Ale: Wow.

John: That’s how big it is. Yeah. That’s crazy. Right?

Ale: Cool. I learn something new now. Okay.

John: Right? So, there we go. The show is over. No. I’m kidding. I think we’re on the last one. The last one is the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Ale: Favorite thing I have, I will say Catalina, my bike.

John: Oh, she’s got a name. Okay.

Ale: She has a name. Yes.

John: Yeah. And what kind of bike is it?

Ale: It’s a touring bike. It’s a road bike. She has been with me even when my firstborn was born. It was interesting because I was pregnant and a friend of mine was selling it. And I went and bought it and I start crying and then my ex-husband tells “What’s wrong?” And I say “I’m a horrible mother. I don’t have a crib, but I have a sick bike.”

John: Right. Well, you got priorities in order. Come on now.

Ale: Oh, yeah. So, yeah. I feel horrible because, you know, everybody buys the crib and everything. And I’m like “Nope, I want this bike.” It’s a red touring bike. It’s a Greg LeMond. I don’t know the year, but it’s a Greg LeMond red bike.

John: Wow. That’s awesome. Even I know what that is. That’s awesome. That’s so cool, which leads right into your hobby or passion outside of work. Your “and” of cycling. And so, how did you get started with cycling?

Ale: Interesting because when I was growing up in Mexico, my mom threw a big 7-year-old party. And it was awesome. But when the party was over, I told her “For the next year, I want a bike.” And it caught my mine on surprise because my older brother and my older sister they never ask for a bike. There was no bikes in our house.

John: Nothing to pass down.

Ale: Nothing like that. So, it’s like “Where is this girl getting the idea of a bike?”

So, the next year, I got a Green Hornet looking bike. Horrible color. Not a girly color, but I didn’t care. It was a bike. And for me, it was freedom. I don’t know what kind of freedom for an 8-year-old. And nobody in my family knew how to ride it. So, I have to learn. And I did it the same way as the Strides, this bike that little kids are riding. Putting my feet down and kind of rolling around. And I taught myself how to ride the bike. You know, I enjoyed that freedom of being in the bike. So, fast forward 2020, I’m gonna make my best intentions and everything, and we get hit with a pandemic. And during the quarantine, I was falling into depression because I was not able to see my friends, my coworkers. I’m a people person. My battery gets recharged when I see people. So, I was falling into depression and I have a personal bad relationship ending. And it was so bad for me. I was just finding ways to hold on.

Catalina was holding in the garage collecting dust for the past 2.5 years. And I didn’t wanna ride her because like if I get a flat tire, I don’t know how to fix it. I always have somebody helping me. So, I was like “How do I do this?” So, one day, it’s like I moved to a different country. I learned a second language. I have this job. I have raised kids. So, I think a flat tire is not gonna stop me. So, I went to a bike shop. I got more tools that I needed for fixing a tire. I mastered my skills thanks to YouTube. And Catalina and I, we started riding. The first day was like a 3-mile because I was out of shape. And at the end of the summer of 2020, I accomplished the mile of 50 miles.

John: Wow! You’re 50 miles in one ride? Oh, my goodness. That would take me like 3 weeks. That’s amazing.

Ale: And it was in a period of 4 months that I started from 3 miles 04 mine is that I started from 3 miles, 5 miles, 10 miles in 1 day. It’s like Catalina and I were gonna go for a long ride. And yet, when computer hit the 50-mile, I start crying. I have talked to that bike more than I should.

John: Right?

Ale: She’s the perfect listener. She never complains. She never talks back.

John: She doesn’t judge you. Really? That’s so good.

Ale: When she’s not happy with me, she makes a flat tire when she’s like “Okay, girl, this is not cool. So, we’re gonna have a flat tire.”

John: Right. That’s so fantastic. I love it. That’s so great. I guess just wanting that freedom and wanting to be outside and to go, and explore, and all that and then to bring it back in your adulthood. And then also too Catalina was, like you said, collecting dust for 2-3 years. How was it different now that you’re riding versus when Catalina was just sitting there on the side?

Ale: I feel like we have to kind of not take things for granted anymore. And the little things that can give us that satisfaction, they have always been there, you know. It’s nothing really like the big house, the big car. It’s just something that compliments you. I mean, she didn’t even have a name. So, I even named her because one day we finished a ride and I say “Okay, girl, you and I, we’re gonna spend a lot of time together. So, I need to name you. So, I need to connect with you.” So, her red color, her little Argentinian background kind of thing that I kinda gave her. And I give her that personality. People know who Catalina is. Some people actually hug Catalina. So, it was more the feeling free, taking time for myself that I deserve to because you cannot keep helping or be part of a team if your bucket is empty. So, that’s how I feel like I recharge myself. I got my ideas. I have the best ideas. I have calmed myself from situations. I have rethink approaches to emails, the conversation, just getting on that bike and thinking.

You know, you’re still minding the traffic and everything, but I have done a lot of thinking, exploration, soul searching when I have been in that bike because it’s just me and my power of pushing for. And life and your work is the same way. You have uphills that you have to prepare mentally. You have those flat, easy, cruising kind of moments. And you have those downhill moments that you have to enjoy because you worry about the traffic of course and breaking up at the moment if you need to, but it’s kinda like that downhill that is the wind taking you. It’s like enjoy because you have to enjoy the good, the bad, and the ugly in order to really experience life and it’s best because that’s what I learned from her, you know. And uphill, you prepare mentally. You’re focusing in one little step at a time or a little portion of the road ahead of you. And then one moment, you realize I’m on top of it. I made it, you know.

John: Yeah. No. I love that so much and that analogy of sometimes the wind is behind your back and sometimes you are going downhill and things are great, you know. And your momentum is with you and sometimes it’s not. Because you’ve ridden 50 miles and you’ve done all these rides, I imagine that translates to work when sometimes at work this is an uphill moment, everybody. And we just gotta buckle down and drop it in the right gear and let’s go.

Ale: And pace yourself because you cannot just completely burn yourself in the first mile because you might have a really steady uphill. It’s like “Okay. How am I gonna pace myself for my team not to feel burnout, for me not to feel burnout?” So, it helps you to also plan, prepare mentally, and the energy that you have, the food you have because you have your bars, you have your water. So, it’s like it paces you in a different way. Yes.

John: I love that so much. That’s so good. And so, you said that people know Catalina’s name. So, is this something that comes up at work?

Ale: Oh, yeah. Because we have people here with bikes. So, when I brought her on the first group ride, it’s like “This is Catalina.” So, I introduced her. So, people know she is part of me. Ale the biker and Ale, Catalina come together. We’re a Twinkie package.

John: That’s so good. So, does Mortenson do group rides?

Ale: Yes. We do group rides. We have the MSA Colorado. The first year that they didn’t have it because of COVID, we created our own route. We visit job sites. We took our pictures. We came back.

John: Oh, nice.

Ale: And casually, when it’s a nice weather, people say “Hey, we’re gonna go down the Cherry Creek path. So, we go, a couple of us. So, it brings us in a different conversation and a different bonding. It’s like “Hey, for Christmas, I give myself a Peloton. So, I call it Catalina version 2.” So, I have a conversation for her not to be jealous. It’s like “In the wintertime, I cannot ride you. So, I’m doing the Peloton.” Yeah. Some people think I’m crazy because I really talk to that bike like I talk to one of my kids.

John: Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, why not? It’s processing yourself. It’s crazier to talk to yourself, I think, than talk to a bike. So, why not? And Catalina’s listening and she’s helping and that’s all that matters. But I think it’s so cool that the company has group rides and it’s a construction company. So, you go to sites and you take pictures. So, it’s kind of weaving that “and” with the work, which is super cool. So, those relationships with the people that cycle I would imagine are a little bit different than just everyone else that you work with.

Ale: Oh, yeah. Definitely. When you talk with somebody who is a biker, sometimes you are “Hey, do you ride this weekend?” “Yeah.” “How long?” And sometimes even during the weekend we’re texting each other. “Hey, I did a 20-mile ride today. It was awful, you know, the wind.” At least 3 or 4 people that I have this exchange is a different level conversation. It’s a different kind of bonding because you stayed experience the same thing. You pace yourself. And at the beginning of the season, of course, it’s kind of hard because you have been not moving your legs much, but we encourage each other. We kind of plan what ride are we doing next time. “And hey, who’s coming on Friday? No worries if you can’t. Maye you can join us.” So, yes, it’s non-stress. It’s a different relationship, different conversation.

John: Yeah. I love that so much. It’s so awesome. So awesome. I guess how much is it on an organization to create that culture that people can share their “and” or even create those groups and how much is it on the individual to maybe just start that little circle on them on their own?

Ale: I think you have to have that safe environment. We talk about this whole diversity inclusion equity portion of it that people, companies, organization are pushing more because it’s part of creating a winning team. You cannot come and say “Hey, I’m this professional. But when I’m off work, I’m a biker.” No. Those years are over. I’m a true self. I want you to get to know me. I want you to include me because I’m Ale. I’m a biker. I’m an engineer. I’m a team player. So, it’s all together. But when you have an organization that promotes a company that has a bike rack by the bathrooms, they have lockers and showers that can tell you you are welcome to do this, it’s not so hard. And even for small businesses because I work with small business, if you wanna create this culture, you just have to say “Hey guys, we’re gonna do this on the weekend” or “We’re gonna do this after work.” It’s just intention of really creating that space for your employees or your team to say let’s bond in a different level.

John: And you brought up the diversity equity, and inclusion, and accessibility like the DEIA world. How have you seen What’s Your “And”? impact that? You know, it’s just when you think of people that— We all have our bias. You just think this person from this culture maybe they’re not as outdoorsy or this culture they are totally outdoorsy. So, when people understand that “no, yes, we have bikes back in Mexico, we used to ride a lot”—

I make that joke that a lot of people are kind of like “Oh, okay.” It just has to be healthy because, again, I enjoy talking. You know how I talk about Catalina, how I enjoy being outside. So, this is me beyond my skin tone, beyond my accent, beyond everything. This is me. I have so much in common with you that you grew up in Michigan, you grew up in Wyoming, or you grew up in Wisconsin that we both came together. We might not agree in a couple things even in a professional setting, but when we can get together, it’s the same 13 miles flat or uphill for both of us. So, we both are gonna be chasing that hill the same way. Different gears, different strength, but it’s the same hill for both of us.

John: Now, I love that and I love how it brings you together with someone, like you said, people from different countries, different states, different backgrounds, and different nationalities and yet there’s that common anchor point of cycling or outdoor activities that you can bond with them over, which is fantastic.

Ale: And we encourage each other because, like I said, when you start biking again after a long winter, it’s like “Uh, I’m just gonna go 5 miles. No, it’s nothing.” And it’s like “Hey, you got on the bike. That’s perfect. And when we have done a ride as a team, we stay together. Three go a little farther ahead. We stay as team and we share. We take pictures. We kind of grind it like “Oh, my God, that hill.” So, it’s just that bonding and that camaraderie (I think that’s how you say) that just brings you together and encourage you. We push each other to the best of us.

John: Yeah. And everyone gets better. Everyone’s better in work and in cycling. Yeah. Everybody wins. That’s so awesome. That’s so awesome.

Ale: And I have to say something more. Our CEO— we have our headquarters in Minneapolis— he came and visit. And he wanted to tour some job sites in a bike. So, they say “Hey, Ale, you have helped marketing with taking pictures. You have a bike. So, can you go with the group and take pictures?” And our CEO or the owner of the company, he recognizes me as “Oh, Ale, she likes to bike.” So, for somebody that oversees 5,000 employees that can relate to me like “Ale, she took pictures when we were biking and she—” So, it helped me and support me to stand out in a different way too.

John: That’s so great because it’s not Ale, the business development person. It’s Ale, the cyclist and likes to bike. And he knew you and that’s so cool. I mean that had to feel just super rewarding because it’s like “Wow! That’s awesome.” It’s the opposite of when you’re a kid and the principal calls you and that’s cool, you know.

Ale: Yeah. You’re riding a bike in the school ground. That’s not a good thing. So, yeah, I got an email from him saying thank you so much for joining us in our ride and thank you for taking pictures because I also the pictures. He was with his brother saying they haven’t been together in a while biking together. So, like we’re gonna send this to our mother. So, there was a lot of things that happened with that bike.

John: That’s so cool to hear. That’s awesome. And have you not shared your “and” or have you not— You know, had people at work not known that, then none of that would have happened. So cool. I guess before we wrap this up though, it’s only fair that I turn the tables since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, that we make this the first episode of the Ale Spray podcast. And thanks for having me on as a guest and you could ask me whatever you want.

Ale: Okay. So, John, thank you for being in the podcast. Thank you for writing that book and for bringing— to help us realize that our “and” is what bonds us together as humans. So, I have a couple 5 questions for you. First one, tacos or pasta?

John: That’s a tough one. You know, I’ll go tacos I think. I’ll go tacos.

Ale: Perfect. Next, Monopoly or Battleship?

John: Ooh. You know, Monopoly, there’s a lot of negotiating and all these other side deals happening. Yeah. Yeah. There’s a game within the game. Yeah. Correct.

Ale: I was also gonna put Monopoly. Okay. Popcorn or candy at the movies?

John: Yeah. Candy.

Ale: Candy. Okay.

John: Not just at the movies. Any time. I mean, popcorn is always good, but candy is gonna— Sometimes you put the M&Ms in the popcorn though if you wanna get fancy. Then get some plain M&Ms.

Ale: I cannot take that.

John: Right. Right.

Ale: Okay. So, you say you are a green or a yellow crayon?

John: Ooh, I’m gonna go green I think. I’m gonna go green on that one. Yeah.

Ale: Okay. So, my last question, if an actor could play you in a movie, say the John Garrett movie, what actor will be playing you?

John: Oh, man. I don’t even know. I mean, I guess there’s a guy that’s sort of my doppelganger, Tom Cavanagh.

He’s Canadian. I think there’s some superhero show that he’s doing now I think or something. I mean, he seems like a cool guy and nice. And he kinda looks like me unfortunately for him.

Ale: Now, but not looking like you. You have to say—

John: Any actor. Oh, yeah. I’d probably say Jim Carey just because he’s so funny and so like animated. You never know what he’s gonna do next. And as an actor, I mean, yeah, just absolutely hilarious, so yeah.

Ale: Okay. Well, I have one more if you are ready for one more. Okay. If you can define your life as a cover of a record, which one will you be?

John: My life as like a record?

Ale: Cover of a record.

John: I’m trying to think of what record albums, I mean, since we don’t even see record albums anymore. Yeah, that’s a tough one. Only iconic albums are coming to my mind, but like Nirvana, but I’m not a naked baby swimming in a pool. You know, Pink Floyd with like the prism. Yeah. Maybe that one I guess. Probably Pink Floyd with the prism where like a beam of light comes in, but then it hits the prism and then it just refracts all the colors out of it. So, I think that would probably be it actually because people think that you’re sort of this bland, one color light, but then all of a sudden a prism hits it and then there’s this magic that’s inside that light that you unlock there.

Ale: I guess when you put your “and” glasses, you could see really all the colors that people—

John: Yeah. There you go. I love it. The “and” glasses. That’s it. And then all of a sudden, you just see all these other dimensions to me and to others. So, yeah, I think it would be that one. Yeah. So, that’s a really good question. I mean, my brain hurts right now. That was good. That was awesome. No, but I really appreciate you being a part of this, Ale. Thanks so much for being on What’s Your “And”?

Ale: Thank you so much for your invitation, and the good time, and the reflection. So, hopefully, it will help somebody see things a little different.

John: Absolutely. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Ale and Catalina or connect with Ale on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 475 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, those things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And both versions go more in depth into the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Mike Kowis. He’s senior tax counsel with Entergy in The Woodlands, Texas and an adjunct faculty at Lone Star College as well as the author of several books including Texas Off-Road Racing and American Tax Trivia. And now, he’s with me here today. Mike, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Mike: Hey, John, glad to be here.

John: Yeah. This is gonna be awesome, man. You’re a busy, busy dude. So, this is gonna be fun and off-road racing is gonna be really fun to talk about as well, but I have some rapid-fire questions to get to know Mike out of the gate here. Here’s one. Favorite color.

Mike: Purple. Because a lot of my schools that I went to in the past, purple was their official color.

John: Okay. Nice. That’s unique. That’s good. How about a least favorite color?

Mike: Maybe black.

John: Oh, okay. All right. Now, that’s safe. It also has nothing to do with any of the college colors in Texas.

Mike: There you go. There you go.

John: So, that’s a good pick. I was like, well, we’ll see where this goes. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Mike: Oh, gosh. Right now, I like Mexican beers. So, like Dos Equis with lime. It’s probably what I’m drinking the most right now.

John: You are the most interesting man in the world. That’s awesome. How about a favorite movie?

Mike: Oh, gosh. Princess Bride.

John: Oh, nice.

Mike: The classics.

John: Always good. So many great scenes in there.

Mike: Knowledge. Knowledge.

John: Right.

Mike: Billy Crystal

John: And Andre the Giant was there too. Like “Oh, man, it’s so cool.” So cool. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzles?

Mike: Honestly, none of them. I don’t do puzzles now.

John: Okay. Yeah. Well, you do tax. So, that’s similar.

Mike: There you go. That’s kind of a puzzle, right?

John: It’s a puzzle. There you go. All right. I’ll give it to you. How about a favorite comedian?

Mike: Oh, gosh. Robin Williams.

John: Oh, yeah.

Mike: He’s my all-time favorite. I’ve read a biography on him and it was, you know— You know, at the end, what’s coming is— Oh, God, just rips your heart out even though you know the ending. What a story. He’s such a talented soul. And I was a fan of him from the first time I saw him, you know. I rented a movie, a VHS in high school. It was actually rated whatever. Rated R or Rated something. And I checked it out. I’ve been a fan my whole life. He was amazing.

John: Yeah, he really was. He was like just 3 seconds ahead of everyone when he was performing, you know. And it’s like did not see that coming. Absolutely. Would you say you’re more of a suit and tie or jeans and a T-shirt?

Mike: Jeans and a T-shirt.

John: All right. All right. That works. That’s awesome. Yeah. Or a jumper maybe. Or I don’t know what you race in. I’m not sure what that is called, but like it’s—

Mike: Yeah. Race suit. Fireproof race suit. They’re not comfy.

John: Yeah. Okay. Then never mind. Jeans and T-shirt it is. There you go. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Mike: Star Wars for sure.

John: Okay. All right. How about when it comes to books and you’ve written them too, but even reading ‘em, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Mike: Print books. I just love the print books. I can’t get into the e-Book for some reason. It’s not the same. The feel of the pages and I don’t know, it’s just not the same to me.

John: Yeah. Yeah. I hear you on that. How about a favorite number?

Mike: 77. That’s my race number.

John: Oh, okay. There you go ‘cause 7’s popular. So, why not two of ‘em? There you go. 7,777,777. It’s just seven 7s. There you go. Are you more of an early bird or a night owl? Night owl. Okay. There you go. And how about your favorite tax form?

Mike: Oh, good Lord. None of them because I let the CPAs— They do the real work. I always say that I’m just a tax attorney. So, they fill out the forms.

I just tell ‘em where the numbers go, you know.

John: Got it. Okay. Okay. So, none of ‘em. Perfect.

Mike: None of ‘em. Yeah.

John: All right. All right. No, that’s actually the right answer. That’s the only one of my questions that has a wrong answer and that was the right answer as a non-tax guy myself. How about do you have a favorite day of the week?

Mike: Friday.

John: Friday.

Mike: Yeah. Getting ready for the weekend.

John: Yeah. Totally. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Mike: PC. Where I teach at the college, they have Macs and it’s like foreign language trying these things. So, I’ll stick to PC.

John: Pretty much I’m the same, man. I’m the same. I’m like how does this mouse work? It’s got 1 button. It’s not even a button.

Mike: Right.

John: It’s like just you’re supposed to know.

Mike: It’s crazy.

John: Yeah, it’s crazy. We got three more. Your first concert.

Mike: Gosh. They did a concert while I was in high school. I wanna say it was 1986 or `87. It was called Monster Jam. And it had like 6 bands in Dallas. Boston was the headliner and then Tesla and a few other smaller bands. I couldn’t believe my parents let me go, but I went with a bunch of friends. We stayed in a hotel room along the way. We couldn’t afford like more than one room. There was like six of us and I slept in the bathtub and my neck hurt the whole rest of the trip. It was miserable, man, but we had fun. It was a blast.

John: But what a great story that you remember so many years later. Right?

Mike: Exactly.

John: That’s awesome, man. I love it. That is so great. Man, Boston and Tesla. I mean, if only Scorpions were in there, like who knows? That’s super cool. It’s awesome. All right. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Mike: Pistachio almond from Baskin Robbins.

John: Oh, very specific. And that’s fancy.

Mike: That’s good stuff. It’s addictive. Don’t ever try because you’ll eat every day.

John: Right. There you go. You’re the enabler here.

Mike: Yes.

John: Yeah. Right. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Mike: Well, that would be my 2018 Polaris Turbo side by side that I race with. I love that thing. It’s a lot of fun.

John: That’s awesome, man. You’ve had it for 3 years?

Mike: Yes. I got it brand new. My son and I drove out to Oklahoma to pick it up. A little tax tip: If you buy your toys like that out of state, you don’t have to pay sales tax there. You don’t have to pay sales tax here. So, that’s why we drove all the way to Oklahoma to buy a new machine so you don’t have to pay sales tax.

John: That is impressive. There you go. Nice. We already learned something like 7 minutes in. That’s awesome. Very cool. I might start off-road racing just to use that loophole like simply because.

Mike: Just to save with sales tax. That’s smart.

John: Right.

Mike: Very smart.

John: Just to stick it to the man. That’s awesome. Right? So, yeah. So, that dovetails perfectly into off-road racing. And how did you get started with that?

Mike: So, when I was a teenager, I saved up my money and I decided to buy a Honda 3-wheeler. It was 1984, so I was like 14 years old. And I lived off in the country kind of like Dayton, Texas, which is halfway between Houston and Beaumont. And I was out in the woods. And the Trinity River runs close to our house like a couple miles away. So, I bought the little 3-wheeler and I called it Big Red. It was a 200-cc 3-wheeler. They don’t make them anymore because they’re banned. They’re supposedly too dangerous because there’s only 3 wheels and they’re very tipsy.

John: Yeah. They tip over.

Mike: Exactly. But it was a blast and I would ride it every day. You know, it was my first sense of freedom. I was like Huckleberry Finn, you know, exploring the woods and the wilderness. And it was a lot of fun. I just had so many good memories of the thing.

John: Yeah. I know. I mean, I rode 4 wheelers. They weren’t mine, but I always had friends that had them. And yeah, that was always so much fun because you’re right. It’s freedom and you’re driving. And you know, you’re just out in the woods in 4-wheelers, 3-wheelers.

Mike: Yeah. Playing the mileage. And you go hunting. I mean, it’s endless possibilities. The girls always wanna ride on the back. So, it was a great way to meet girls. I mean, it was the perfect vehicle for me when I was 14, you know.

John: Yeah. Totally, man. I love it. I love it. And then did you just keep riding or the toy just got bigger over time?

Mike: Yeah. So, what happened was they actually had like ATV rodeos in the little town next door like in Liberty, Texas. And so, I started competing in those. And they were like timed events like in the rodeo arena, so like barrel races and other obstacle courses. And I won a few of those.

John: So, you gotta like drive around. So, it’s a timed thing. Okay.

Mike: Right. So, I ended up winning some of those, which was a blast, but it was my first time to compete on anything other than just normal sports. And so, that was a blast. And I sort of like got hooked. But at some point, I turned 16 and I realized I really need wheels, right, because I got to have a date on Saturday night. So, I sold my 3-wheeler very begrudgingly and ended up buying like an old beaten car, my first car, like a 1976 Ford Granada. A 4-door piece of junk, you know. More Bondo than actual metal.

John: Right.

Mike: Anyway. Basically, I gave it up at that point. And then after I got married and got a job, and a truck, and all that like 2001, I decided to be fun just for old time’s sake to buy a 4-wheeler.

So, I bought a Hondo 250 little 4-wheeler and rode it around the back of the woods in my neighborhood. I live in the woodlands area. And so, I bring my daughter at the time and put her on my lap. And we just plod around the yard, that sort of thing. And then I discovered cross country racing a few years later like in 2004. That’s when I really got into this racing thing. The event is known as Grand National Cross Country or GNCC. And they’re a national chain, but most of the races are on the East Coast. And it’s mostly like 4-wheelers and dirt bikes. And they did expand it to side by sides a few years ago, but they have since stopped I think for insurance reasons or whatever. So, that was my first gig. I rode out the 4-wheeler. I had no idea what the heck I was doing. And I went to Gilmer, Texas, which was like 5 hours away and it’s like Northeast Texas. And it was so exciting. I had no idea what to expect. I didn’t realize it was like a national event that draws hundreds and hundreds of people and media.

John: Right.

Mike: And there’s all these national racers.

John: It’s awesome.

Mike: It was the real deal. Yeah. And so, I’ve been following all these racers on off-road magazines and stuff.

John: Oh, yeah.

Mike: You know? Mike Penley was there, Scott Kilby, and all these names I have followed. And I got to meet them. And I was just like “Oh, my God.” I’m star struck and I can’t believe it. So, it’s really exciting.

John: And you’re one of them.

Mike: I’m one of them. I’m one of those guys. Right? So, I met ‘em and I’ll never forget it. Like Scott Kilby and I were in like ‘cause you had to get a— They called it tech inspection when you go through and they check your machine, make sure it has all the safety equipment, kill switch, and all those things. And I just looked behind me and I’m like “Oh, my God, I think that’s Scott Kilby.” And so, I said hi. I couldn’t believe I had the guts to even say hi. And I told him it was my first race ever. And he looked me. He gave me a little advice and it stuck with me all these years. He said your goal should not be to win. All you wanna do is 2 things. You wanna finish the race and try to have fun in the process.

And that was brilliant advice because it took the pressure right off. I really enjoyed the rest of the day because those events were like 2 hours long. It was an 11-mile course, up and down, really treacherous trails. And this is at a park that’s open year round. It’s in Gilmer, Texas. It is called Barnwell Mountain. And I’ve been there before since. And some of the trails are literally marked jeep only because they’re too dangerous for 4-wheelers or dirt bikes. We were racing up and down. We were just going up and down. We were racing those trails full speed, you know. It was just like “What am I doing?” Well, I’m stupid. Right? But it was so much fun. Yeah. It was really something.

John: That’s great, man. And what great advice not only for that, but like work and life? You know, you’re not out here to win. You’re out here to have fun along the way. I mean, what great advice.

Mike: Right. Just make it to the end.

John: Yeah. And survive. Yeah. I mean, in racing, there’s definitely a winner. But even then, you finished. I mean, to me, that’s winning. I mean, you know, like the definition of winning and the definition of success isn’t necessarily becoming a partner, or a CEO, or CFO, or whatever it is. It’s just being the best version of you, you know. And I love that advice, man. That’s so great. So, side by side is how would you describe it to people listening. And also, the pictures are on whatsyourand.com in case people wanna go check them out. They’re super cool.

Mike: Thanks. Yeah. So, side by side is kind of like a 4-wheeler, but it’s a 2-seater. And they’re side by side, hence the name. It is kind of like a golf cart on steroids. That’s what I tell people.

John: Right. There you go.

Mike: Yeah. And so, it’s got taller suspension and bigger tires than a 4-wheeler, so it soaks up the bumps a little better. So, that’s kind of a good thing, but it is wider and heavier. So, it’s not quite as nimble and quick as a 4-wheeler, but there’s pros and cons with everything, but it has more safety features because you have like a 4-point or 5-point safety harness. You have to wear not just a regular seatbelt in the car. And we used to have window nets to keep it from falling out ‘cause you don’t have glass for obvious reasons. We have a fire extinguisher. You have to wear a fireproof suit from head to toe, which is very uncomfortable and hot. And this doesn’t breathe at all as you can imagine.

John: Especially in Texas.

Mike: Yeah. 95-degree temperature. Oh, yeah, it’s miserable in the summer. It does keep you warm in the winter though a little bit. So, that’s kind of plus.

John: Right. And it’s got the roll cage inside.

Mike: Exactly.

John: Yeah. No. I think it’s cool, man. And so, do you do a lot of the maintenance on it as well?

Mike: I do all of it because I’m too cheap to spend the money to have somebody else do it. So, I learned a long time ago I can’t afford to be in this sport if I don’t do all the work myself. And that started in the early days of us doing 4-wheelers and racing those. I had to like literally rebuild engines and the whole thing. I kind of enjoy that kind of hands-on mechanical work, getting dirty in the garage and really getting into that.

And it’s fun because you understand the machine better and you know its limitations. And you understand what will break something better if you— You know, it’s kind of like doing a tax return and giving tax planning advice. If you know where those numbers end up and how to it affects the bottom line, you’ll give better tax advice. So, it’s good to know the ins and outs of the whole thing.

John: That’s amazing that parallel because I’m guessing at no point in your education did any of your professors tell you go off-road race and work on engines because it will make you better at your job, but it straight up does.

Mike: Yeah. It does.

John: That’s cool, man. And it’s also neat to see especially in the pictures. Your son now is also racing. He’s in the other side of the side by side.

Mike: He is. That’s probably the best part of this because there’s so many father-son activities or father-daughter activities that you can do where you’re watching your child perform or compete, and that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with that of course, but there’s something about experiencing the race together. And he’s not just a passenger. He’s actually helping out. And there’s many times where it’s blinding dust, and I’m exhausted, and it’s an hour long racing, and we’re battling on this course. And it’s basically the way cross country is setup, is they setup a 3- to 5-mile track and then you do as many laps as you can in 1 hour. And whoever does the most laps the least amount of time wins.

And so, it’s an endurance race. It really is. And it will beat you up pretty good because these are not smooth highway trails. Right? There’s cactus, and there’s sharp rocks, and there’s drop-offs in the creeks. Sometimes it’s muddy and you can’t see because you’re coated with mud head to toe. And you have goggles with these tear-offs, you know, and then you run out of tear-offs and then you take your goggles off. It’s very intense. It’s very intense. And then if it’s hot and dusty, you’re breathing dust. You’re gagging on it because the back of your throat is all caked up with dust. And you can’t see anything. And so, you’re depending on your co-pilot to tell you “Oh, yeah, you gotta turn left, to your left, the left.”

John: So, he’s got the map and he’s like following where you are.

Mike: It’s not even a map.

John: Or in his head.

Mike: It’s in his head. Yeah. He remembers and I don’t because I’m exhausted or whatever. Or he’s looking up the trail further than me ‘cause I’m just trying to squeeze between trees. A lot of this racing his dodging trees. He has luxury of looking 20 feet up the trail. I’m just trying to make it between these 2 trees right in front of my wheels.

John: It’s sounds absolutely crazy, and intense, and nuts. And I wanna do it so badly. You’re like describing mud and breathing in dirt. Just your spine getting all jacked up from all this bouncing around and who knows what. And I’m like “You know what? Yeah. Let’s do that, you know, like type of thing.” And that sounds so fun, man.

Mike: It’s an adrenaline rush. That’s the best way to describe it. It’s an adrenaline rush. And just to survive and get to the end of the finish line, that is a true accomplishment because so many times like every race there’s always machines broken down on the side of the trails. It looks like a graveyard at some point. And they break down because either they hit a tree, or they hit another machine, or they broke – a mechanical failure, or they pop the tire. I mean, it happens every race. There’s always people broke down. So, just to make it to finish line is an accomplishment. And everyone is celebrating. They pop a cold beer at the end. It’s a lot of fun.

John: That sounds great, man. That’s super cool. And it’s something that you talked about throughout your career, or something that you bring up with coworkers, or is it kind of just on the side as people hear about it they hear about it?

Mike: It’s kind of on the side. I never really thought my peers would relate to that, you know, the sport. And so, it finally sort of came out, if you will. A few years ago, they were looking for employees in the finance department at my company, Entergy. And when had an annual meeting for all finance— There’s a couple of hundred employees. And they meet in a big ballroom. This is pre-COVID. And so, they asked for people to submit what’s your unusual hobby and they’re gonna pick one or two. And they’re gonna start off the meeting that way. So, I was one of the two people they picked. So, I get up there and I had like 2 minutes to explain this crazy hobby I do.

And everyone was looking at me like “What’s wrong with this guy? He’s got some screws loose or something out there.” I even was teasing my boss. He’s up on the stage with all the important people. Right? And I’m down in the floor and they just asked me to stand. And all these eyes are on me. And I’m trying not to be too nervous and say something too stupid. But for some reason, when I get a little bit nervous, I’ll just like be silly. And so, I started like saying “Oh, I raced with Joe up there. We call him 1-lap Joe because he’s not good for anything more than 1 lap.” So, I was teaching him. I was talking about my other co-workers, you know. “Oh, yeah, we see her at the races all the time.” And then she’s looking at me “What?” She’s never been to a race. So, I was just having a lot of fun with it. Right?

But then afterwards, people would come up to me and say “Oh, you’re the guy that races.” And then they would just be like an icebreaker. So, that was kind of fun.

John: Yeah. I love that they did that. I absolutely love that. You had 2 minutes. Here’s 3 people that work here, what their “and” is basically. And now, everyone can see your personality and how much you light up about— Like if they had asked you to come up and give them a tax update, first of all, no one would pay attention. And second of all, you probably wouldn’t be that excited, but they were like “Hey, come up and—” I mean you’d be excited, but not like off-road racing excited and joking about 1-lap Joe and she’s always— You know, whenever I do a tax return, she’s always there. it’s like no one says that, you know. And so, I love that they did that and I love that you did it too. That’s so cool to hear that months later, years later, people are like “Oh, wait, you’re the off-raid racing guy.” And it’s not a bad thing at all, right?

Mike: Right.

John: That people know who you are.

Mike: It’s a lot of fun. People make assumptions. They think that “Oh, people that do that are rednecks.” I was born in East Texas, but I’m not some country hick that doesn’t know how to add 1 + 1. And there’s a lot of people that are professionals that I work with. CPAs, business owners, attorneys like me. And they’re all super nice. We don’t care what walk of life you come from or what you do for a day job. We’re just there to share a passion. We help each other. People break down. If someone’s injured, we’ll stop our race and just go help. We don’t care. So, it’s all about sportsmanship, and enjoying the sport together, and having fun. And I’ve met the best people at these races. It’s really amazing.

John: That’s so cool to hear. And like just imagine if every one could say the same thing about their office or their department. Just we’re all in it together. And if someone’s down, we stop and we pick them up. You know, we care about each other and we celebrate at the end together. Just imagine if people were like “Man, I met the coolest people at work.” If people could say the same thing, like that would be a dream of mine if we could all say that. And I think that you’re only gonna get there if you share some of this outside of work interests in who you are as a person because— I mean, we’re all good at our job and can talk about the work, but that’s not really who you are, you know. And I’d imagine you’ve had different careers and you’ve gotten promoted through that career. And the technical skills that you use have changed. But that off-road racing side of you, that’s always there. That’s an anchor.

Mike: It is. I’ve learned a lot from the sport. Like just to have confidence and be brave because racing, you know, there’s a lot of times— I broke my right wrist in one of the races. That’s why I went to side by side. So, my wife said no more ATV racing. You know, there’s an old saying, with age comes the cage. So, that’s kind of when we switched over to side by side as you get older. So, that’s kind of why I’m doing what I’m doing. But you know, a bad track at the track, you can be injured or, God forbid, die. You realize it’s kind of a dangerous sport. And that’s why there’s all the safety equipment and so forth, but I just keep that in perspective.

I go into the office. You know, what’s the worst thing that could happen? You know, maybe a big tax deduction is denied or we have a bad audit and then the company loses a tax deduction and spends more money. Nobody dies. You know, we’re all good. So, it’d kind of changed my attitude. So, if we do aggressive planning, as long as it’s based on very good cases, and even if it’s aggressive, I don’t fear as much anymore because I know at the end of the day nobody’s gonna die over this tax planning, you know.

John: Yeah. You’re not getting a broken arm, you know. Otherwise, that’s a bad client. Like we need to let you go.

Mike: Yeah. You gotta stop doing work for the mob. Right? That’s not good.

John: Right? Yeah. There you go. There you go. I love that so much, man. That’s so cool to hear and also how much it’s enriched your career and spilled over into your work, you know. And you didn’t do it for those added benefits, but it’s an accidental byproduct. That’s pretty cool to hear. And that you recognize it as well, you know. And that’s super awesome. And so, do you have any words of encouragement to anybody that’s listening that maybe they off-road race or they have an “and” that has nothing to do with their job or they think no one’s gonna care?

Mike: Yeah. I guess just don’t be afraid to be yourself and open up. I think people will appreciate you better. You’ll be more relatable if they understand your passions and what it is that drives you. Even if your hobby is not the same as other people’s, they understand hobbies and the concept behind that and what passion is. And so, I think they’ll see you as a real human being. You’re not just a one-track pony that only does this tax work or whatever it is your day job is. So, don’t be afraid to open up and share. And you’d be amazed there’s probably people that have a connection.

Oh, my uncle does that or my aunt has one of those or whatever. So, you’d be amazed at the connections you’ll build just by sharing.

John: Yeah. I love that, man. And yeah, ‘cause I mean that emotion and that passion that you have just comes out and you’re a magnet. You know, it’s like people want that. And that’s super awesome. Well, this has been so cool, Mike. I feel like though it’s only fair that since I asked you so many questions at the beginning that we turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Mike Kowis podcast and let you be the host. I’ll be the guest. And you could ask me whatever you want. I’m all yours.

Mike: Okay. Great. So, I have a few rapid fire for you. How about Dave Chapelle or Jerry Seinfeld?

John: Oh, wow. You know, I think I’m gonna be controversial and have to go with Chapelle only because he just tells it how it is. Like there’s that bravery right there. He’s like “Look, this is about to cause a tidal wave, and I’m gonna just stand here and look it down, you know. And it’s because this is what I believe, and this is funny, and a joke is a joke.” And you know, like there’s no ill-will, or intent, or whatever behind it. And it’s a different time. I mean, Jerry in his heyday, I mean, was amazing and just as comedians. You know, of course, the Seinfeld sitcom and the Chapelle show. I’m not including— You know, just as comedians. But I mean, they’re both so prolific. I mean, they write so much. I mean, Chapelle had 3-hour specials in like 2 years. That’s like Carlin level. I mean, that’s like, dude, crazy. Yeah. So, I’ll probably go that, but it’s like 51-49 like close.

Mike: There you go. Yeah. Johnny Carson or David Letterman?

John: Oh, Carson all day. Like that guy was amazing.

Mike: That’s what I thought. It’s a no-brainer.

John: He was amazing. Yeah. And also, off the show, everything I’ve heard from both, Carson was just like— I mean, he was a little bit aloof. He didn’t like big crowds. He preferred small audiences, but just a nice guy. And so, yeah, totally.

Mike: How about Jeff Ross or Don Rickles?

John: Oh, man. So, I’ve met Jeff Ross.

Mike: Oh, that’s cool.

John: Haven’t met Rickles, but I’m gonna have to go Rickles. I mean, it’s just old school classic. I mean, he’s just so good. And maybe because I saw him when he was older, so it was funnier to me that there’s this older guy like ripping up the room. But yeah, he’s a legend.

Mike: He is. Ace Ventura: Pet Detective or Tommy Boy?

John: Ace Ventura: Pet Detective hands down all day every day. Tommy Boy also was so good. But yeah, Ace Ventura because I love that story of where they gave Jim Carey the script and he’s like “This is crap. I’m not doing it.” And then they were like “Well, what—” And he’s like “I’ll do it if you let me be part of the writing.”

Mike: Oh, wow.

John: And then they were like “Okay.” And then that’s what you get.

Mike: Oh, my gosh.

John: So good, man.

Mike: Yeah. He just has a raw talent, you know. Just the emotion in his face, his body movement. He’s just hilarious top to bottom, you know.

John: Yeah. It’s that Robin Williams-ish thing that you can’t teach, you know. He’s just got it. He’s so good.

Mike: How about Die Hard, is it a Christmas movie or not?

John: It’s a Christmas movie easily.

Mike: I think so too, but I think he was interviewed and he said it’s not. He said it’s a Die Hard movie.

John: Well, you can watch it any time.

Mike: Yeah, it’s true. That’s true.

John: You know? But if you need a reason to watch it, it’s a Christmas movie. I mean, it’s like Home Alone. I mean, Home Alone could be an any time movie. But you know, it’s a Christmas setting. It’s no different. I mean, Die Hard takes place the same time, you know, so like there you go. It’s like how’s Home Alone a Christmas movie and Die Hard— That’s the lawyer in me right there, Mike. You see what I did?

Mike: Good analogy. I like that.

John: Right? There you go. Well, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for being a part of this. This was awesome. Thanks, Mike.

Mike: Thank you, John.

John: Yeah. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Mike in his side by side with son and off-roading and links to his book or connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. And while you’re on the page, please click the big green button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out What’s Your “And”?, the book, as well.

Thanks for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 473 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate them when they’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, and a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. Both versions go in more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and listening to it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Kari Hipsak. She’s a senior manager with the firm Services Team at the AICPA. And now, she’s with me here today. Kari, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Kari: Thanks, John. Happy to be here.

John: Now, this is gonna be so much fun, but I do have 17 rapid-fire questions to get to know Kari right out of the gate. So, hope your seatbelt is buckled and keep your arms in the car at all times, I don’t know, whatever that rollercoaster people say. Here we go. I’ll start with maybe an easy one. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Kari: Oh, no. Don’t be mad. Neither.

John: Neither? Okay. Fair enough.

Kari: I’m really not a sci-fi person. If I really, really had to watch one, it would be Star Wars, but I’m probably going to fall asleep within 30 minutes.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so funny. Okay. Your computer, a PC or a Mac?

Kari: PC.

John: PC. Yeah, me too.

Kari: Hands down.

John: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So, on your mouse then, right click or left click?

Kari: Left.

John: Left. She’s making decisions. That’s how you choose. Right?

Kari: Yeah. Exactly.

John: Boom! There it is. How about do you have a favorite day of the week?

Kari: Favorite day of the week, I think it’s typical that everyone likes the weekend. Right? And I think I’m gonna pick Friday because it’s that day where you get to mentally gear up for the weekend.

John: Okay. Okay.

Kari: So, it’s that taste of anticipation.

John: Oh, nice. Okay. I like that. I like that a lot. All right. Since you have the accounting background, balance sheet or income statement?

Kari: Both.

John: Both! Okay! Trial balance. Give it all to me. Just give me all of the numbers.

Kari: I want all the information to make the best decision possible.

John: Get all up in your business. All right.

Kari: I want it all. Want it all.

John: All right. Okay. All right. There you go. Would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

Kari: Naturally early bird. I can be a night owl, but I prefer early.

John: Okay. All right. There you go. How about your first concert?

Kari: First concert, yeah, 98 Degrees—

John: Nice!

Kari: …with Vitamin C as the opener.

John: Wow! There you go. Okay.

Kari: Yeah.

John: That’s so awesome. I do not know Vitamin C, but I do know 98 Degrees.

Kari: Oh, you know Vitamin C. If you heard her songs, you would know. It was those high school songs. As we go on, we remember. You would know it if you heard it.

John: Yeah. Yeah. No. Totally. It just fits in with 98 Degrees. That’s so great. So great. How about your favorite number?

Kari: Favorite number, 13. Everyone thinks it’s unlucky, but I’ve decided to make it lucky. So now, I pick 13.

John: Good for you. Good for you. How about books? More audio version e-Book or real book?

Kari: I like the real book.

John: Yeah. No, I’m the same. I don’t know. You can go back easier and I don’t know. It’s just old school. How about more oceans or mountains?

Kari: More oceans, but I do enjoy the mountains from time to time.

John: Sure. Yeah. No. Fair enough. Fair enough. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw?

Kari: I don’t understand the point of a jigsaw puzzle.

John: The picture is right there.

Kari: Exactly. Why did you cut up a perfectly good picture so I hae to put it back together?

John: Oh, I love that so much. That’s so awesome.

Kari: So, Sudoku and crossword are my top. Sudoku is definitely the top top. I’ll do crossword. I’ll work on jigsaw with my mother because I love her dearly even though I complain about it the entire time.

John: Right. I love that. That’s hilarious. How about a favorite color?

Kari: Green.

John: Green, nice.

Kari: Like a dark forest green.

John: Okay. Okay. How about a least favorite color?

Kari: Orange and yellow.

John: Oh, yeah.

Kari: Just because I’m blonde and it doesn’t work well with me.

John: Right. It doesn’t.

Kari: Nothing against the people that like those colors.

John: No. No. Everything against them.

Kari: Not everything.

John: No. But it is funny how we choose our colors based on what looks good wearing.

Kari: Yeah.

John: Totally. I mean, everyone that’s been on. I mean, that’s been pretty much the reason. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Kari: Coffee.

John: Coffee. Yeah. Okay.

Kari: I’m sure you were going for alcohol, but I need coffee.

John: No. No. Whatever works. Whatever works.

Kari: And I wasn’t allowed to drink it until I was an adult. So, it’s an adult beverage to me.

John: There you go. And it’s every day. The other is probably not every day.

Kari: No.

John: How about three more? A favorite actor or actress?

Kari: Okay. My favorite actor is because of the movie The Greatest Showman—

John: Oh, yeah.

Kari: …and I love Zac Efron in that movie.

John: Okay.

Kari: I didn’t wanna answer it because if I ever get to meet him, I want to play coy and be like “Oh.”

John: He’s a big fan of What’s Your “And”?

Kari: Yeah?

John: So, your cover is blown now.

Kari: Dang it.

John: Your cover is blown.

Kari: All right. I’ll have to come up with a different one. That’s fine.

John: But he was in Scrubs as well, right, and several other shows, but yeah. But from The Greatest Showman. Yeah, there you go.

Kari: That movie just every time I’m on a plane, if that is a choice,—

John: Done.

Kari: …I’ll be there.

John: Yeah, it’s a good movie as well. Two more. Diamonds or pearls?

Kari: Oh, both.

John: Both. Okay. I mean, in case Zac is listening.

Kari: I know. Right?

John: And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Kari: It’s everything and nothing at the same time. I’m very intentional about the things that I bring into my house, in my life. But at the same time, everything is replaceable. I am a little possessive of stuff though, so I don’t want people touching my things. But worst case scenario, if it does break or if someone breaks into my house and steals my things, that’s fine. It’s replaceable.

John: Yeah. Just start with the jigsaw puzzles first if you’re gonna steal something.

Kari: Yeah. Just take those first.

John: Take those first.

Kari: I have a couple for my mom’s sake, but those are not meaningful to me. So, I guess that’s probably the exception.

John: Just leave those on the front porch. There you go. Put it in an Amazon box so they get to take it, but no. That’s awesome and I love that. I mean, it’s a thoughtful answer as well, which is really good and which leads kind of into just mental health advocacy and just emotional intelligence and overall well-being. Like how did you get started with this journey because it’s been quite a journey for you for sure?

Kari: Yeah. I’ll try to keep it somewhat brave. I think it started years and years ago with my younger brother. He’s autistic. And going out in public with him was always an adventure because we never knew how he would act or how people would respond to how he acts. And autism doesn’t have look like some other scenarios do. So, people would think that he was just acting out, or being a brat, or being a jerk, or whatever the case was. They’d pass their judgement. People would make fun of him. People would give us dirty looks. And he’s 3 years younger than me. So, we went through the adolescent phase together, and it was hard honestly to see these people making fun of my brother, and it felt personal at that age, and it was hard to dissociate from that. I did struggle with it a lot. And by the time I was 12, I was in counseling.

John: Oh, wow.

Kari: It was just I reached a point of frustration with the fact that my brother always needed more attention. And I don’t mean to take anything away from my parents. They did a fantastic job trying to balance things, but the reality is he just needed more attention.

John: Right. And when you’re 12, I mean that’s hard to process, you know, from your perspective.

Kari: Exactly. And it was just the small stuff like my school was across the street from the hospital where he had therapy. And in the winter in North Dakota where I grew up, having to walk across the street was devastating. Devastating. I just wanted to be picked up like everybody else. And instead, I had to bundle up and walk a block and a half to get to the hospital. It just wasn’t ideal by any means, but we powered through and I became an overachiever. I mean, now looking back, probably because I felt like I had to compensate for my brother in some deep seated psychological way. Right?

But I became an overachiever. I became a caretaker at an early age because even though my brother to some respects made me a little sad because I didn’t get to have a normal childhood, I had to protect him as well. And for some reason, I got it in my head that I had to take care of him in addition to my parents who were doing a fine job, but became my responsibility. And so, I had a really bad anxiety in high school. My mom took me to the ER during my senior homecoming because I had such bad chest pains that we didn’t know what was wrong. So, my anxiety reached a peak at that point and I did what I had always done. I kind of swept it under the rug.

I went to a couple sessions of therapy and told myself to walk it off. The idea of being depressed or being anxious to the point where I couldn’t control it made me feel like I was broken and I did not want to admit that to anyone.

John: Sure. Yeah. Well, especially at that age. I mean, it’s so hard to be an adolescent anyway, you know. But to feel like there’s something wrong or whatever, you know, like you said broken, which now we realize isn’t the case. But you know, when you’re a teenager, that’s tough. It’s so tough.

Kari: Yeah. It wasn’t preferred by any means. It was just, again, the cards that I was dealt. So, again, I powered through. I went to college and I did the best I could and powered through with my test anxiety and all that jazz. And when I got to my senior year of college, I finally determined that I cannot take the CPA exam and have this bad test anxiety. So, I got put on this medication for anxiety. It took one and I was like I can’t do this. And I only took it honestly as a positive that I told myself I could fight through this without the help of anyone or anything. It wasn’t worth it looking back to tell myself that I was fine, but I did it. I told myself I was fine. I started my first career in accounting. I ended up having a job opportunity to move from South Dakota. That’s where I went to college. To move from South Dakota to New York City.

John: Nice. That’s a change. There you go.

Kari: It was a change. Right? I just jumped in. I don’t even really know how it happened. People are like “Oh, did you always wanna go to New York?” And no. Absolutely not. I don’t even comprehend how that happened.

John: That’s not gonna help the anxiety though I bet because I mean that city is big and busy.

Kari: It is. And I just thought this is a great opportunity to start over and just try something new. I’m a big fan of being adventurous in life. You just never know until you try. Right? So, I did it. I moved out there. I was still living in a hotel. And 36 hours after I landed, my dad passed away unexpectedly.

John: Oh, my goodness gracious.

Kari: So, on top of the big move, I just dropped everything and went back home. I took a month off from starting with the new firm and worked with lawyers to become a legal co-guardian for my brother. And I had to write my will at the age of 25 in a way that would protect my brother. And I helped my mom rewrite her will. It was a lot to take in. And I remember my mom giving me this book about dealing with grief. And I just didn’t want to.

John: Right. Yeah. Well, so fresh right then too. I mean, yeah, it’s such a hard thing to go through. All those things in such a short amount of time. Goodness.

Kari: Yeah. I was in denial the whole time if we’re being honest. I flew home. I helped my mom with what I needed to do. And it was heads down and get back to work. And that’s how I’ve always lived my life. If I just worked hard, I could essentially distract myself from whatever was happening in my life.

John: Oh, okay.

Kari: But when you do that, your body eventually tells you you’re wrong. So, I didn’t know this was possible, but my entire neck ended up seizing up. I couldn’t move my upper body for at least a week. It was done. I was done mentally, physically. I just didn’t deal with anything and that’s what happened. So, that happened. And before my dad passed away, I had worked so much at my first firm and that was just my life. And I became unhealthy. And I started working with a personal trainer to lose weight and get back to a place where I could feel confident. I started powerlifting and I loved the powerlifting. There is nothing more exciting to me than going to the gym and watching people watch me put weights on a bar and know that they’re silently judging me thinking that there’s no way I can lift that.

John: And then you go pound out some reps and it’s like there you go. Yeah. That’s awesome.

Kari: That’s right. This is me. Take it. And I loved it so much and I was able to lose a bunch of weight before my dad passed away. But right before I moved to New York, I couldn’t continue with powerlifting because of an injury. So, I had this outlet for work and then my dad passed away. And I’ve just felt like everything in my life had changed. To use our catch phrase, my “and” had been taken away from me. I couldn’t powerlift. I lost my dad. I just had so many changes going on. I didn’t really know how to function.

John: And sort of your identity now is gone, you know, because it’s who you thought you were as a person. Now, whether it’s work ‘cause you got a new job or you’re kind of transitioning as a daughter, as a powerlifter, like all those things now have been removed, which is really, really hard to go through for sure.

Kari: Yeah, it was a lot.

And I finally started with a firm. I reverted back to my natural tendency, which I alluded to a little bit before, which was just to work and work and work and work and put in so many hours that I was working to live. And that’s how I stayed afloat was every day I got up to go to work. It wasn’t to live my life. It wasn’t to be a better person. It was just to stay afloat and work was how I did that. It’s like when you go into a networking group and you ask someone who they are and they define themselves by their jobs. And that’s not who you are. It’s what you do. So, I reverted back to just working, working, working and that was that. And I couldn’t handle that for long. I ended up finding a new outlet in boxing apparently.

John: Nice. Okay.

Kari: I liked the aggressive activities for some reason. Right?

John: Right. All the people that were judging you at the gym now, it’s like “Get in the ring! Like let’s continue this.”

Kari: That’s right. Let’s go. I got this.

John: Right?

Kari: So, I fell in love with boxing. And I remember at one point my trainer told me I don’t hit like a girl, and I was offended at first and I called him out on it, and he said “Well, I understand that we wanna be equitable, but it’s true. You punch with the weight of a man.” And so, I was like “Okay. This is awesome. I really like this. I’m gonna setup a plan. I’m gonna dedicate my time to being an amateur boxer.” I was finding a gym where I could train to be an amateur boxer. I loved having the powerful punches. I loved hearing the sound of my glove on the bag or the mitts if I was with my trainer. Something about having that back made me feel just like I had my life back again. Right? Like I lost my dad. I lost powerlifting. This was awesome. And then through all this, I ended up going into the doctor for what I thought was just this terrible sinus infection that wouldn’t go away.

And I ended up having a CAT scan, and it turned out that it wasn’t actually a sinus infection. And then in another whirlwind, it turned out I was being referred to a neurologist, and I was diagnosed with a condition called pseudotumor cerebri or intracranial hypertension. What it means is my cerebrospinal fluid pressure is too high. So, it puts pressure on the brain and that’s why I like to refer to it as pseudotumor cerebri the most because I feel like it defines it the best. And what that literally translates to is false brain tumor. So, the pressure on the brain causes tumor-like symptoms. It impacts everything in your head. So, it can cause blindness from putting pressure on the optic nerve. It impairs hearing that. It causes dizziness, headaches, visual disturbances, nausea, vomiting. It’s just not a pretty thing that you—

John: That’s not good for boxing especially.

Kari: No. No.

John: Yeah. So, you have another “and” taken away then.

Kari: Yes. I have another “and” taken away. I can’t do boxing. My neurologist basically told me “You can box if you want to, but I don’t recommend it.” And I’m like “Well, I don’t even know what to do with that. Like I have to pick now between my body and my health or having this outlet.” And just through all of this, I don’t want to ramble on and make this about my personal life too much.

John: No. No. But it’s deep and it’s your journey as to, you know, why— ‘cause some people say emotional intelligence and it’s like no, no, no. For you, it’s deep and it’s rooted. It’s something that you’ve had to walk for your whole life really. And so, you know, it’s helping others to understand that they’re not alone, number 1. And number 2, like their journey isn’t also the only hard journey out there, you know. What I’m hearing is just when your body says take a break, then take a break because the more that you put it aside and the more that you just say I can fight through this, I’m gonna work more, work more, put pride and a badge of honor in the billable hour that I did for a year, then eventually your body’s just gonna shut you down, which is a shame because then the things that do actually light you up then can be taken away as well, which is hard to hear.

What I’m encouraged by in hearing this is you had an “and” and then you were like “Okay, you can’t do that one”, “Well, I’m gonna get a different one” as opposed to “Oh, I can’t do powerlifting. Well then, I guess I’ll just work forever.” So, that’s what’s cool to me, is how you’re still searching for those things because you understand that those outside of work passions matter.

Kari: The thing I learned after my dad passed away, once I finally was willing to explore the feeling of dealing with death, was that one of the number 1 regrets people had on their deathbed is that they worked too much.

And it was such an eye opener that, you know, we’re all here for a purpose. And it feels like our purpose is work because adult life isn’t what I thought it was when I was a kid. Right? I have to pay bills. I have to like keep up with the bills. I accidentally missed a bill. And the next thing I knew, the city was threatening to cut off my water.

John: Right. There’s a laundry. It’s like “Ugh.” It’s like all the things.

Kari: And it never ends.

John: Go for shopping, like cooking. It’s like “Ugh.” Yeah. And it’s every day. Oh, we gotta do it again? Okay, awesome.

Kari: Right.

John: Right.

Kari: But we’re not made to be a strictly workhorses. We have a reason to be here. There are people we can touch and people we can influence. And one of the biggest struggles that I had with my story is every time something happened to me, I told myself it’s not that bad. Someone else has it worse. Yes, my brother was autistic, but he wasn’t in a wheelchair and we didn’t have to modify our entire home. And yes, I lost my dad at the age of 25, but other people lost their dads before that. Or yes, I have these narrow conditions, but it’s not life threatening. And I kept discrediting my own feelings. And I think when you do that and you don’t open up and share your story because you feel like it’s not worthy, you also take away from other people because then they feel like their stories aren’t worthy.

I tried to hide so many experiences I went through whether it was the loss of my dad, whether it was dealing with an anxiety diagnosis, whether it was dealing with these neurological visits and having to juggle the fact that I got escalated to a neurologist and had like 6 doctor appointments in a week. I like hid it all because I didn’t want people to know this about me. And once I opened up and I said “you know what, if we don’t talk to each other about it, we’re all gonna feel like we’re broken”, so I opened up. I did some— I’m gonna loosely call it social media campaigns about pseudo tumor awareness month. I’m terrible at social media. I can never do it consistently, but I opened up about my experiences with that, again, because they’re not well-known. They are considered rare even though I have made contact with a number of people that have been diagnosed with these conditions now.

But I found that in opening up, it gave other people permission to open up as well. And when we do that, we don’t have to live in this fear anymore. And that just does so much for your mind that in my case I had to keep re-evaluating my “and” and it was hard. But now, I’m just in a position where I’ll talk about mental health awareness. I’ll talk about how much it sucks that I hate waking up in the morning and I feel nauseated all the time because of this condition. And I just wanna wake up and feel okay, but it also gives me an opportunity to talk about it and then find a different “and” and that those “ands” honestly, they’re baby “ands.” We’ll call it what it is.

John: They’re “ands.” There’s no size to the “ands.”

Kari: There’s no size to the “ands.”

John: It doesn’t have to be record breaking. It doesn’t have to be something that walked on the moon. That’s the same as making kombucha at home or going on a hike, you know. I mean, there’s no difference. Having an “and”, they’re all the same. They’re all the same, you know. It’s just having that thing that’s outside of work, you know. And I love how you said that, you know. I can even equate talking about mental health awareness in your journey. It’s almost the same. It’s just talking about what lights people up in these other dimensions to who someone is as a person. And I would imagine that it’s good for you like you said, but I imagine that everyone else enjoys it too, you know. Like you said, it gives them permission to also then open up. And you just get closer and you learn about each other. And suddenly, your dimension like it’s a 3D relationship now where most work relationships are pretty superficial, kind of 2-dimensional. But now, all of a sudden, there’s a little bit of depth to it, and there’s richness there, which I love hearing your experience through that. That’s awesome.

Well, I feel like before we wrap this up that I eat rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning. So, I feel like we should turn the tables, make this the Kari Hipsak podcast. And thanks for having me on the show. So, you can ask me whatever you want. I’m all yours.

Kari: That’s right. This is the first episode of the Kari Hipsak podcast. I’ll be interviewing John Garrett. Let’s start with the important questions. What is your favorite comfort food?

John: Ooh, favorite comfort. So, that’s probably gonna be— I mean, ice cream is hard to beat or like brownies with ice cream like a la mode like warm brownie ice cream. Like yeah, that’s gonna be hard to pass up.

You know, some hot fudge like just whipped cream. You know, cherry, why not? You know, like just yeah. That’s gonna be hard to pass that up.

Kari: Why not?

John: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, if we’re going in, we might as well, you know.

Kari: I really like that you’re dedicated to your core food of ice cream and you just add on it for comfort food. Right?

John: Well, I mean, why not? I mean, it’s like we’re already going to triple digits calories, so we might as well go for a comma. Like let’s for a thousand. Like let’s do this.

Kari: For the comma. Perfect.

John: Right?

Kari: Whenever I have an a la mode brownie again, I’ll think of you and say I’m going for the comma.

John: There you go. I mean, look at it positively. Right?

Kari: Have you tried any of the “ands” that have been shared on your show?

John: You know what? That’s a really good question. And this is actually a tangent, but what I would love to have be a TV show because Mike Rowe has Dirty Jobs where he goes and does some dirty job that someone does and then it’s a show, I would love to do a show where it’s me going to somewhere and then somebody likes to ballroom dance. Awesome. I’ll ballroom dance. I don’t know how, but I’ll learn it and let’s do it. And then I talk to you about it. I think it would be an awesome show just to get professionals all over sharing their “ands” and me doing ‘em because I have no shame in doing something ridiculous that I don’t know how to do. And maybe I’ll actually be good at it, but I haven’t picked up any specifically because of, I guess. Yeah, there was someone on who made kombucha. And then unrelated to that, my wife was making kombucha for the first time. So, it was kind of a funny parallel universe I was living where I was like “Well, I can have you talk to her because she’s awesome and knows how to make it for real” type of thing, but I think that TV show would be great. I think people would watch, you know, but I don’t know who to talk to. So, I need to get on that.

Kari: Oh, I don’t either, but I’ll let you know if any connections come to mind.

John: Right, right, right. Exactly. Exactly. So, that’s awesome. You got one more?

Kari: Yeah. You brought TV. So, what’s your favorite reality TV show?

John: Oh, wow. So, favorite reality TV show. For the record, I like loathe reality TV because it killed the sitcom. And as a comedian, like that’s kind of where we’re all going. But I would have to say that Married at First Sight is the only reality show that I watch, and it makes me look like a really amazing husband, so that’s—

Kari: So, it’s your feel good show. That’s what I hear.

John: Totally. I’m like “Look, I’m way better than that.” But I feel like Married at First Sight is such an interesting social experiment, and it makes me laugh, and it’s also just weird to just see how people act. And you’re like “What? Like how is that person doing that?”

Kari: Marriage as a social experiment, that sounds solid.

John: As a whole. But then make it a TV show, why not? Throw two strangers together, meet at the altar, and then we’re gonna film you for the next 8 weeks. It’s like yikes.

Kari: Right.

John: Yeah. For sure. Well, this was so much fun. Thank you so much, Kari, for being a part of What’s Your “And”?

Kari: Thank you, John.

John: Everyone listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Kari outside of work or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 471 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. And the book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and now listening to it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Bill Hershey. He’s the founder, bookkeeper, and business consultant with Life Stream Business Services out of Oregon. And now, he’s with me here today. Bill, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Bill: Right on. Thank you so much, John. Pleasure to be with you.

John: Yeah. This is gonna be super, super fun. But before we get into it, I got my rapid-fire questions, get to know Bill on a new level here. So, bring it. Right?

Bill: Bring it on. That’s right.

John: All right. Seatbelts are buckled. We’re in. Here we go. This is a fun one. How about a least favorite vegetable?

Bill: Ooh, wow. The slimy ones. Probably like— Oh, man. I just say slimy. I don’t even know how to answer that.

John: Yeah, slimy ones.

Bill: I like vegetables.

John: Yeah. Slimy ones. That’s good. I hear you on that like yeah. Because there’s some when they come out- I’m trying to even think of some, but they’re just like “Ugh.” Yeah, the texture is just off.

Bill: Overcooked vegetables would be my least favorite vegetables.

John: Ah, there you go. Okay. I like that. I like to put in the air fryer. That’s where the magic happens. Right? Gets them a little crunchy. Even I’ll do Brussel sprouts then. How about favorite color?

Bill: Ooh, my favorite color is clear.

John: Oh, okay. All right. I have never had that answer. So, that is awesome. And then here we go, least favorite color.

Bill: Ooh, wow.

John: If you say opaque, I’m gonna lose my mind.

Bill: Oh, man. That’s a great answer. I should rip that out. I’ll be like “Oh, yeah, I got that from John Garrett.”

John: You can say opaque. It’s all good. It’s all good.

Bill: Yeah. You know, I really have never thought about what my least favorite color— Oh, neon. Neon is definitely my least favorite.

John: I’m with you on that, man. Yeah, that’s obnoxious. Totally. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzles?

Bill: Ooh, it’s so long. I’m gonna say none of the above.

John: Oh, man, fair enough. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Bill: Ooh. So, there’s this brand of kombucha called June. It’s like the champagne of kombucha. I’m not hired. I’m not advertising for them, but it gets me excited to think about it.

John: That’s awesome. Okay. All right. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Bill: Ooh, I live in a cave, man. I don’t watch movies. I don’t even know what to say anymore. I’ve been like under a rock for the last 15 years.

John: So, you’re like Tom Selleck. And it’s like “Wait a minute, what?”

Bill: Yeah. Really.

John: Michael Winslow from Police Academy. You know, it’s like—

Bill: There you go. And he’s like the guy who did the sounds.

John: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Totally.

Bill: That was great. Okay. Well, let’s go with him because that guy was awesome.

John: There you go. All right. How about chocolate or vanilla?

Bill: Chocolate. Chocolate.

John: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. How about Star Wars or Star Trek? This was pre-cave, so you gotta answer that one.

Bill: You’re right. You got me on that, you know. Star Wars was like always better, but Star Trek somehow has found its way closer to my heart.

John: Yeah. There’s a deepness to it too for sure. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Bill: Mac all the way. I’ve been with PC for too long. It’s like Mac has totally won me over over and above.

John: Wow. Okay. All right. Impressive. How about when you’re in an airplane, window seat or aisle seat?

Bill: Window seat.

John: Window. There you go.

Bill: Yeah. You know, people are walking by either like brushing up at your elbow.

John: Their backpacks hitting your head. It’s like “Yo! Do you know you have that thing on your back?” Oh, God, all the time. All the time. It’s so “aaaah.” Yeah. Yeah. All right. Books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Bill: You know, the audio just makes it so easy. I drive. I listen. I can actually like “read” by having the audiobooks.

John: Okay. All right. There you go.

How about a favorite number?

Bill: 9.

John: 9. Is there a reason?

Bill: Yeah. And that doesn’t mean no. You know, that means no in German, but I mean the #9. My wife speaks Germans, so I gotta be careful to clarify. I’m talking English here.

John: Your clear and opaque answers, you might as well say no. No, no, I’m teasing. It’s all good. How about early bird or night owl?

Bill: Oh, man. I am such a night owl, but I’m trying to convert into an early bird. It’s so hard.

John: Why? Those people are weird. No, I’m kidding. I’m kidding. It’s to each their own, man, but at least you’re one or the other and not both because, man, that would be a lot.

Bill: It is. I’m kind of split. It’s like I’m a split personality there a little bit, but I’m trying to move in the direction of early bird.

John: All right. And since you have the accounting background here, balance sheet or income statement?

Bill: Ooh, I guess income statement even though the balance sheet is where I need to be. Income statement is kind of where I’m at right now.

John: Yeah. Yeah. It was simple. There’s your number. Boom! Do you have a favorite day of the week?

Bill: I like Fridays.

John: Yeah. Okay. All right. There you go.

Bill: Even though I work on the weekend, it’s like Friday is still special.

John: Well, I mean, yeah. I mean, it’s TGIF. Right? I mean, it’s all that. And so, how about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Bill: Ooh, praline pecan.

John: Oh, okay. Nice. That’s a little fancy.

Bill: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man, hits the spot.

John: Yeah. Very good. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Bill: Man, I have this really weird instrument from India called a veena and I almost feel ashamed to say this. My favorite thing that I own because I barely even play it.

John: Yeah, but it’s a cool thing, man. Yeah. I mean, why not, you know?

Bill: Yeah, why not? It’s almost like it’s in a museum or something, you know.

John: Right.

Bill: It may as well be.

John: Right. That’s awesome, man. That’s so cool. Did you get it when you were in India?

Bill: You know, it’s like I’ve been so immersed in sort of India philosophy and India culture for so long.

John: Okay.

Bill: I’ve never been to India.

John: Oh, okay.

Bill: So, it’s surprising to people sometimes that that’s the case.

John: Yeah. Because, I mean, I just figured it was something you picked up while you’re there, but that’s cool that you have it. And when you go, then when people are playing it, you can just jump into the band and be like “I know that one! Here we go.”

Bill: That’s hilarious. That’s hilarious. Though I’m sure they’ll laugh when I start playing that thing.

John: No, no, no. I’m teasing, but that’s great that it’s something that you enjoy playing, and you don’t have to be some maestro at it, you know. Like it’s just something that you’re planning and that’s cool. That’s awesome, man. I love it. That actually dovetails perfectly in with your hand, I think, a little bit of just holistic health in general. And just how did you get started on that path?

Bill: Yeah. Well, that’s a long story. So, I don’t know if I’ll make it necessarily a long story short, but I’ll try not to make it a long story too long.

John: Okay. We’ll go medium. We’re good.

Bill: Yeah. Medium. We’ll find that middle way. Yeah. So, you know, I grew up eating Pop-Tarts, and Twinkies, and a can of soda pop, and bags of chips. That was like my lunch every day going to school. And you know, when I look back, okay, at least it was vegetarian.

John: Right.

Bill: Right?

John: Right.

Bill: I don’t know how I survived to tell the story. I was playing sports. You know, I was doing wrestling and football. And so, interestingly, being an athlete, I was interested in my performance. I was like “Okay, I gotta make sure I’m staying hydrated, drink lots of water and, you know, get protein or whatever.” But gradually, I realized “Oh, you know, maybe these Twinkies, maybe these Pop-Tarts aren’t actually like the best thing for me to eat.” And you know, it was probably like college years that I started to wake up to that. So, I grew up in Buffalo, New York. And nothing against Buffalo, nothing against Upstate New York or the East Coast, but it’s almost as if— It’s like I just had no exposure—

John: Sure.

Bill: …growing up there to so many things that when I went to LA when I was 21 years old, it’s like reality opened its doors to me and I had so many other options. And I think part of this is because I grew up in a very like suburban setting. And so, it’s like very sheltered. I’m sure if I was in the right niches in Buffalo, I would have got to do some cool stuff.

John: But you were in Buffalo like exotic as Canada. So, I mean, let’s be honest.

Bill: Right.

John: Like BeaverTails and like that’s not exotic. I feel like that’s just a funnel cake with some cinnamon on it, you know, but like Nutella, but yeah. So yeah, you go to LA. It’s like “Woah, this is way different than Canada.” So, yeah. So then, that’s when it started to really come together?

Bill: Yeah. Like being in LA, it was like my first experience. I went to a Whole Foods. Part of the reason why I was in LA is because— There’s details in this story. My friend from high school invited me out to join a rock band with him. He had a record deal.

John: Oh.

Okay.

Bill: They got signed to a record deal, the same record company that signed Michael Jackson.

John: Okay.

Bill: So, it was like Epic Records.

John: Yeah.

Bill: It was like “Oh my gosh, this is like a dream I never had that’s now coming true.”

John: Yeah.

Bill: And so, you know, he invited me to come out and play bass guitar. And he was vegetarian and I was a football player at that time. I’m still like, you know,—

John: Eating everything.

Bill: …down my face. Yeah. Exactly. Eating everything at all times of day, that kind of thing. But yeah, he took me to a Whole Foods. He’s vegetarian. And just kind of being around, I just got exposed to a lot of things. He took me to vegetarian restaurants. And after a few months, I was just like “You know what? It’s not such a bad idea.” You know, I have no judgment. I really think that eating food choices is such a personal choice. But you know, I had studied like Buddhism and a little bit of like ancient Hinduism in college that kind of opened my mind to alternative ways of thinking. And it’s just the concept of vegetarianism came into my awareness that that’s the thing that people do. That’s an option.

John: Right. Right.

Bill: And being around other vegetarians made realize, you know, “Okay, maybe I’ll try this.”

John: It’s not just salads, you know. Like there’s other things as well.

Bill: Exactly. Like perfect example, I was at like an Ethiopian restaurant with him in LA and like he bought this beautiful platter of like different kinds of hummuses, and babaganoush, and flat bread. And it looked amazing. And like I was going through them and I saw this like fish with like a fish head and like the head was still on the fish like on the plate. I was like “I want that.” And it came to my table. I’m looking at this fish with its head still on it and then like chewing on the bones. I’m like picking these bones out of my teeth and like I want what they got.

John: That’s awesome.

Bill: I was like “Man, why are they ordering this?” But yeah, you know, it wasn’t just like a cold turkey or cold fish stop right there.

John: I like that. Well-putted. That’s awesome.

Bill: Yeah. So, I mean, eventually, I just started eating that way and I realized whenever I went back and like had some turkey sandwich or whenever I’d be vegetarian for a couple months and then be like “You know, I think maybe I need to eat some meat” and I’d have like salmon or something, maybe even fish, even some white meat, and just every time I did, when I listened to my body, I was like “You know, I don’t think I need that anymore.” And I’m actually kind of like feeling the effects of that.

John: With Pop-Tarts still. Pop-Tarts. You would already shed those.

Bill: Well, you know, it’s a funny thing ‘cause every once in a while, I’d be like hitting the candy machine—

John: Oh, yeah.

Bill: …binging. I went through these binge cycles where I was like eating kind of healthy and then I’d be like “Man…” Like something would overcome me. I’d be like “Arggh.”

John: Just get it all.

Bill: Like downing a whole pint of ice cream, bam, or whatever, you know.

John: Totally, man. Like I threw the lid away on those when I was younger and then people were like “What are you doing?” I was like “This isn’t a single serving? Like this isn’t a sit down and just go to town on like those little Ben & Jerry kinda—” It’s like “Why do we have the lid? Like just throw it out. Like why are keeping that?”

Bill: It is so apropos we call that little, all right.

John: Exactly.

Bill: It’s like pints of ice cream, this little pint.

John: Right. But it’s more than just the eating for you. I mean there’s so much more to it now. You know, it’s groomed to be a bigger thing as well.

Bill: Yeah. I mean, it’s become a lifestyle really. And you know, I think that’s very much guided from observation, you know, observing like how does this feel in my body, how do I feel, just how is my energy and my well-being, even my mood I notice. As I became vegetarian, I became more interested in things like spirituality and meditation and, you know, ethical lifestyle. Things kind of just started naturally falling away from me. Like I wasn’t enjoying drinking anymore. I wasn’t enjoying like smoking whatever it was I was smoking at that time anymore, you know. I almost started feeling like handicapped when I was doing this.

John: Oh, okay. Like it was holding you back.

Bill: Yeah. I thought before I was like gaining something from doing that. I was like “Yeah, I feel good. I can let loose.” It’s like I can have fun this way, but something changed in such a way that it was very natural. It wasn’t forced. I didn’t have to like suppress the desire even.

John: Right. Yeah.

Bill: And so, that’s why I feel like there’s no judgment in where anybody’s at in their journey. It’s something that just unfolds if it’s supposed to unfold, you know. So, that’s how it was for me.

John: I love that, man. And so, do you feel like there’s a skillset that you bring to your work that comes from this? I mean an accidental byproduct. You know, it’s not why you do it clearly, but something that, you know what, this actually makes me better at my job.

Bill: Well, yeah, a couple things. I mean, one is like I very much pay attention to taking care of my body through food, through trying to do healthy routines.

Being on a decent sleep routine is something I struggle with, but I still kind of try to hold the reins on it a bit because, yeah, that’s gonna affect my performance and my mood. And so, I mean, that’s more on the physical side. You know, like meditation certainly is going to have an effect on my balance and my ability to just stay clear and productive. I mean that’s just in terms of like internal performance. But in terms of like working with people— Like bookkeeping, there’s a lot of technical aspects of that. But you know, on the more consulting side, helping people understand the reports, there is a lot there because money is an emotional subject.

John: Very, very. And people don’t really understand it either, which is probably why it’s more emotional.

Bill: Exactly. Totally. And being an entrepreneur can be very emotionally challenging as well. I almost call it like being an entrepreneur is like a psychospiritual journey.

John: Yeah, it’s a journey. That’s for sure.

Bill: Yeah. There’s so many challenges that we would never have to face if we were working for somebody. No judgment—

John: No, no, no.

Bill: …on those working for somebody. It is its own journey in its own way. Exactly.

John: And you know when you step into the entrepreneurial sphere/arena, this is what you’re gonna deal with, you know. You mess with the bull, you get the horns. Sometimes the bull gets you. Sometimes you get the bull or whatever, you know, type of thing and yeah. And there’s pros and cons, but I love how much of that is spilled over into your business. I mean, even calling it Livestream Business Services, I mean that’s not a common name. I mean, clearly, when people approach you or are talking to you, they’re like “Well, that’s clearly from something. That’s based in something that’s pretty deep.”

Bill: Yeah. I appreciate you noticing that. I did put a lot of thought into the name and I really wanted something that would metaphorically communicate what I feel is the essence of what I wanted to bring to my work, which is essentially, you know, whether it’s through bookkeeping or through my almost like software consultation services, which are kind of more dealing with business and money at a deeper emotional or even spiritual level. But really, the core of what I’d like to do is not only for my own self, but also for others to help us align with the principles of nature.

John: Nice. I mean, you have a niche, you know, where if this isn’t for you, awesome because now we know way before we started talking because we’re not 6 months into a relationship or 2 years into a relationship where they’re like “Woah, woah, I don’t want any of that.” You know, like “Well, that’s what I do.” So, you know, like that’s how this works. And so, it’s for people that want that and that’s cool that you’re not vanilla down the middle of the road. “I’m for everybody.” It’s like “No, you’re not.” I mean, you’re for nobody in the end, you know.

Bill: Yeah. Totally. I like being able to be sort of bring my whole self to my business in terms of not necessarily having to hide that part because it’s such a prominent part of myself, but it’s also I’m not pushing it on people. You know, I have like a graphic designer client or like, you know, another holistic client who maybe they don’t like go that deep with emotions or spirituality. Yeah, that’s fine. You know, I’m their bookkeeper, but like I kind of see where people are at. If I throw out a chrome and they’re not into that chrome, I don’t throw more chromes of that kind unless—

John: “Open your mouth!”

Bill: Yeah, I’m not that guy.

John: “He’s involved. Eat it!”

Bill: Totally.

John: I mean, clearly now, it’s something that comes up, or you talk about, or it’s front facing. But throughout your career, is it something that— you know, sharing an “and” was part of who you were or was it later in your career that you started to share those outside-of-work things?

Bill: You know, it’s interesting. It kind of gets into my journey in that I’ve always been afraid of the corporate world.

John: Oh, okay.

Bill: Like I went to a good school. It was a very corporate school. University of Rochester.

John: Oh, yeah.

Bill: I’m one of those guys who were becoming doctors or they were like being groomed for the corporate world and something in me was like “Am I really in the right place here?”

John: So, for you, it’s almost the opposite where instead of people being in the corporate world and maybe sharing their “and”, you were in your “and.” Maybe sharing that you had a corporate side.

Bill: Exactly.

John: It’s the opposite.

Bill: And you know, it’s funny. Totally. And I never really fully expressed that corporate side. Like I ended up going to a meditation retreat center and going like fully on into this really internal journey. But what I’m seeing now that I didn’t see 20 years ago or whatever it was— Yeah, 20 years ago I guess. Wow, I can’t believe it’s been that long. You know, with the changes that are happening with, you know, thought leaders like yourself where the corporate culture is becoming a lot more holistic minded and people can’t— you know, the corporate ideal where, you know, these companies are really there to nurture their employees, like I find that really encouraging.

And you know, I wouldn’t be opposed to like jumping in with a stellar job with the corporation if the conditions were right. Whereas like before, I just can’t even conceive. It’s like does that even exist? And maybe I loved, it could have, but—

John: Yeah. But it’s a needle in the haystack 20 years ago. And now, holistic as in, you know, work should not be a net extraction. It should be a net positive for the people. And so, it’s not like I go to work, and then they just suck everything out of me, and then I leave and then come back, and then they suck more out of me. You know, it’s like they should be putting in as well. Sure, some days or some weeks, “Look, it’s extraction time. You got to buckle down and nail it.” But at the end of the year, at the end of the quarter, whatever it is, it should still be a net positive for people. Yeah, I think that some people are starting to get it. I’m not sure if they know how to do that, but they want to at least. And so, you know, I do like how the tide is turning. And certainly, you know, there is opportunity there. And you know, if people are listening now and they’re like “I’ve never even thought about that”, well, now you’ve heard it. You can’t un-hear it, you know. So, there’s that too.

Bill: There you go.

John: Yeah, I love it, man. And so, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone that’s listening that has an end that they think no one’s gonna care or it has nothing to do with my job, so why talk about it?

Bill: Yeah. A couple things. Actually, before I go into that, I wanna speak to what you just brought up ‘cause this is what I call the principle of mutual prosperity. The principle of mutual prosperity is really at the heart of any holistic way of doing business whether it’s corporate, or small business, or personal transactions; having an agreement with your landlord or with your tenant; it’s where we generate prosperity together. It’s that versus an extractive exchange. So, every transaction, every exchange results into happy parties rather than one feeling like “Ugh, that felt off, you know.” You know what I mean? And so, I feel like that’s a principle of nature. We see that nature in terms of symbiosis. Right? Our business relationships can be symbiotic where we’re helping each other. You know what I mean? So, I think that’s a mindset shift that’s happening. I don’t know if you’ve heard of like the permaculture movement.

John: No, I haven’t actually.

Bill: It’s fascinating. There’s ways of setting up a garden that different plants actually complement each other and enhance each other’s like performance. Or if you look at like an ecosystem, the system is set that these plants and animals are actually complementing each other and enhancing each other’s chances of survival. And so, as a corporate culture, if you can set up your company’s systems, and crews, and roles in such a way that you’re creating that symphony, it’s incredibly powerful. If you see like a beehive, you know, they’re incredibly productive. They’re working towards a common purpose. And you know, it’s very efficient. So, I feel like that’s the—

John: No, I love it, man. I love it. that is so awesome. I mean, really a great way to wrap it up ‘cause, I mean, that’s so perfect. I love it. But I do feel like it’s only fair since I so rudely fired away at you with questions at the beginning that we flip the tables. This is the Bill Hershey podcast and you’re the host. I’m the guest. And you can ask me whatever you want, man. Here we go.

Bill: Sweet. Okay. So, these are nature boy questions if you don’t mind.

John: Okay. No, all good. Here we go.

Bill: All right. So, what’s your favorite flower, John?

John: Favorite flower, ooh, that’s gonna be a good one. I mean, gerbera daisies are always fun ‘cause they’re bright, and they’re colorful and all. That’s always a good one I guess. Yeah. I’ll go with that.

Bill: Sweet.

John: Yeah.

Bill: Daisies are great. Awesome. What’s your favorite season of the year?

John: Fall hands down. Fall. I mean, leaves are changing colors. That’s always awesome. College football’s happening. That’s always awesome. It’s not hot anymore. That’s especially awesome. Yeah, fall easily.

Bill: Right on. So, what’s your favorite tree?

John: Ooh, that’s a good one. Favorite tree, maybe I’ll go ginkgo maybe.

Bill: Ginkgo, all right.

John: The leaves are just so cool and like that’s probably why. I don’t know why.

Bill: It’s good for the brain too.

John: Oh, yeah. You’re right. It is good for the brain, which is ironic that I don’t know why. It’s like my brain isn’t working, but Ginkgo.

Bill: Maybe it’s what you need. Maybe it’s calling for it.

John: That’s exactly it. That’s exactly it. Yeah. So, there you go. It’s awesome. Those are great questions, man. Things I never thought about. So, that’s even better, but very cool. Thank you so much, Bill, for being a part of what you’re in. This was so much fun.

Bill: Right on. Thank you for having me, John. It’s been amazing.

John: Everyone listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Bill outside of work or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 469 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. It goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, AlexAnndra Ontra. She’s a cofounder and president of Shufflrr. And now, she’s with me here today. AlexAnndra, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

AlexAnndra: Hey, John. How are you?

John: Doing great. I’m excited to have you be a part of this talking ballet. This is gonna be awesome.

AlexAnndra: I’m excited to be here. So, shoot, let’s get to it.

John: Yeah. But I have my I have my rapid-fire questions, get to know AlexAnndra right out of the gate here. So, this will be fun. I think this will be an easy one. Favorite color.

AlexAnndra: Yellow. It’s the color of sunshine.

John: Oh, okay. That’s a great reason. How about a least favorite color?

AlexAnndra: I don’t think I have one. I like all colors. Not to sound corny but, I don’t think I have a least— I have colors that don’t look good on me. But since we’re on a podcast and no one’s gonna see me, it really doesn’t matter.

John: Right? There you go. That works. That works. Oh, this one you definitely have. Favorite adult beverage.

AlexAnndra: Oh, a big warm cabernet in the middle of winter.

John: Okay. Oh, it’s specifically winter. Okay.

AlexAnndra: Yeah.

John: I like that.

AlexAnndra: Yeah.

John: All right. And since you are at seasons, favorite season, summer, winter, spring, or fall?

AlexAnndra: All of them. I like variety. And then I just moved to Florida. So, I might have to readjust that going forward, but I like the change of seasons because there’s always something to look forward to.

John: Okay. All right. Fair enough. Fair enough. How about a favorite actor or actress?

AlexAnndra: Oh, let me think about that. Favorite actor… You know, I’ve been liking a lot lately is Reese Witherspoon.

John: Yeah.

AlexAnndra: She’s been on so much, but she also produces her own stuff. She’s got her own production company, which I believe she recently sold for a ton of cash.

John: Yeah, because she needed it. So, good for her.

AlexAnndra: So, good. And then she’s an entrepreneur. Like I feel her pain. She built a company and she started acting, doing one thing, and then she grew that into all other aspects of that industry. And she recommends books. And all her books that I read on the Reese Witherspoon Club, I was like “Oh.” You know, they’re just light easy read. So, as an “and”, reading for leisure just to escape whatever’s going on in my life on any given day, one of my “ands” is just reading before I go to bed at night.

John: Yeah. No, that works. Awesome. How about chocolate or vanilla?

AlexAnndra: Chocolate.

John: Okay. You’re like offended I even asked.

AlexAnndra: Well, you know, I love the smell of vanilla. I love baking with vanilla. But if I’m gonna pick up a— if it’s ice cream, it’s chocolate. If it’s a candy bar, it’s chocolate. I don’t think I’ve ever had a vanilla candy bar nor do I want one.

John: That’s a good point. I don’t know if they exist. And yeah, we’re good without them. We’re good. How about more talk or text?

AlexAnndra: Talk. I’ve been in a pandemic for 20+ months and I miss people. I miss people. Texting is easier. It is way more convenient. It can be kind of fun and you have a record, so you can always scroll back on the text. Sometimes that’s a really bad thing. Sometimes it’s a good thing. That can go either way. But generally, as we’re getting out of this pandemic, I wanna talk to people. I wanna see them face to face.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Even better. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw?

AlexAnndra: I’ve been doing a lot of the crossword puzzles lately. I’ve gotten addicted to the New York Times. They have a daily mini puzzle.

John: Oh, a mini one.

AlexAnndra: It’s a mini one. The big one is like “Oh, that’s just too much to look at, but the mini one you can get it done in like 3 minutes.” I was like “Oh, I feel so smart. I just finished that.”

John: Oh, yeah. And you accomplished something.

AlexAnndra: I accomplished something. It is a mini puzzle. It’s not rocket science.

John: No. No. I love it. That’s awesome. How about books since you’re a big reader? Are you audio version, e-Book, or real book?

AlexAnndra: I do e-Books and I like historical fiction.

John: Oh, okay.

AlexAnndra: Before I go to bed at night. I always read a novel of sorts before I go to bed at night.

John: That’s great. How about a favorite number?

AlexAnndra: I mean, I could say 6 because my birthday is October 6, but I think that’s copout.

John: Okay.

AlexAnndra: 8. 8 is infinity.

John: Oh, it’s infinity just standing up.

AlexAnndra: Endless possibility.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. How about are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

AlexAnndra: Right in the middle.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

AlexAnndra: Sorry. I mean, that was a boring answer.

John: No, no, not at all.

AlexAnndra: But yeah, right in the middle. I wake up around 7-ish, and I start getting sleepy around 10-ish. So, I’m right in the middle. I’m not one or the other.

John: Yeah. Yeah. You’re both. That’s impressive. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

AlexAnndra: Oh, PC totally. PC.

John: Yeah. Me too. Same. And your mouse, right click or left click?

AlexAnndra: I’m looking. I’m not really looking at my—

John: …click or right click?

AlexAnndra: I’m a left click person.

John: Yeah. Making decisions, just “bam” let’s do it. There you go. How about a favorite Disney character?

AlexAnndra: I would probably say Belle from Beauty and the Beast.

John: Ah! There you go. Okay. That’s a solid answer. There you go.

AlexAnndra: Well, you know, it might just be because, you know, in my early 20s when I was single and living in New York and I had 2 roommates, who were both friends from college, we had the VCR and that was hangover go-to video on Saturday mornings when we’re just yelling and totally zoning on the couch. We would be like let’s watch Beauty and the Beast, and we would just like watch it.

John: That’s incredible.

AlexAnndra: Yeah. Well, I liked all the little moving and talking furniture.

John: Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s super cool. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

AlexAnndra: Oh, Star Wars.

John: Yeah. Me too. Same.

AlexAnndra: Like who doesn’t love Hans Solo?

John: Right!

AlexAnndra: I mean, okay. Now, I’ve totally given my age. I am a woman of a certain age, but yes, I had a huge crush on Hans Solo.

John: Yeah. He was awesome. Two more. So, what would you say favorite presentation application?

AlexAnndra: Oh, Shufflrr, of course. I’ve been living it and breathing it for the past I don’t know how many years. It’s my company.

John: That was a trick question, So, good answer. That was the right answer. And last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

AlexAnndra: The favorite thing I have, I would have to say it’s a tie between— And this is gonna sound sappy, but between my health and my friends because, without either one, there’s no use in doing anything. Why build a business if you have nobody to share that with? Why have your health if you can’t go out and spend the time with your friends? On the other hand, if you have really good friends and your health fails, then you have somebody to help you through that.

John: Yeah. It goes down full circle there.

AlexAnndra: Yeah. And that’s what makes life worth living.

John: But no, that’s perfect though. I love that so much. So, let’s talk ballet and how did you get started? Was it something you did from when you were very young?

AlexAnndra: It was something I did when I was very young. And when I was very young, they discovered that I had dyslexia or some sort of learning disability. And to this day, I still don’t really know my left from my right. Driving with me is a delight. So, my mom put me— I mean, she put me in ballet classes, dance classes, piano lessons, all sorts of extracurricular development building. I really loved ballet.

John: Awesome.

AlexAnndra: And I just kept doing it. Yeah.

John: So, do you have some of the shows that you were a part of that were more memorable?

AlexAnndra: Well, every year, at the Miss Louise School of Dance— and that was half jazz and ballet— we had recital every June. And you know, you would graduate as you got older and, you know, move up. In college, I did it for my fine arts credit and then I just started doing extracurricular just to stay in shape. It was my form of exercise. And then when I moved to New York, there’s so many dance companies in New York and so many places to take open classes. And you know, you can just be a novice like me and you’re dancing right next to somebody from New York City Ballet because all dancers go to class regularly. They never stop taking classes. They never stop trying to perfect their art. And they will go to different teachers all the time because every teacher is different, and they see different things, and there’s something to learn. So, I think being in New York made dancing as an “and”, as you like to call it, very easy because there’s classes everywhere all the time that you can find one that you like.

John: Yeah! And it’s cool that you’re with people that are a part of the New York Ballet and it’s like “Woah! I mean, I’m here, and I’m learning, and we’re all in this journey together in our own lanes.” And that’s encouraging I’m sure to be a part of that.

AlexAnndra: Yeah. It is inspiring ‘cause then you sit there. You’re in class and you get a front row seat to some of the best dancers in the world. You’re like “Wow!” It’s also intimidating because you don’t wanna do a pirouette turn some professional dancer and you’re like “Okay, I need to go back to the beginner class. I don’t really belong here.”

You’re gonna get in the back of the room.

John: Yeah. Right. Right? I’ll go last. I’m last. Don’t worry about it. Yeah. Like I enjoy dancing ballet, you know. Like it doesn’t matter if, well, you know, what troupe are you with, or what shows are you doing, or are you getting paid. I enjoy it. And you’re doing it for your own enjoyment, not for someone else’s approval.

AlexAnndra: Right. And a lot of professional dancers, they appreciate that because it just builds their art. It builds their audience selfishly. I mean, it’s really a labor of love because they’re not doing it for the money. That’s for sure. So, you know, it’s a really beautiful, kind hearted, welcoming community. It gets a bad rap, ballet dancers being super competitive, and super anorexic, and all that crazy stuff, but all the ones that I’ve met and come across are really awesome people. And there’s just so much camaraderie and support for their fellow dancers. It’s a beautiful community to be a part of.

John: That’s awesome. And I guess do you feel like there’s any of that skillset from dance that carries over to your career?

AlexAnndra: Absolutely. Absolutely. And you would never think it. I have a software company. I have code writers who build our product. Code writers come into problems all the time. How do we solve it? How do we build this feature? How do we make it do what the client wants it to do? And I have this great teacher that I’ve been going to his class for 20+ years. His name is Francis Petrelli. And in the middle of every class, we do an adagio. And adagio, for those who don’t know, is a slow, romantic, melodic, very dramatic piece. It’s not fast staccato, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom. It’s very slow and dramatic, and it’s beautiful, and it’s hard. And the thing with moving slowly is the audience sees everything you do. So, they see what you do beautifully. They also see the mistakes you make. And it’s much harder. It’s much harder to move slowly than it is to move quickly.

And after every adagio, when he gives the combination, he asks— He goes around the room to every student and he says— he asks “What was the hard part for you?” And he would make you verbalize it and explain it. “What was the hard part for you?” And what he said is “You know, I do this because once you understand the problem, you’re 80% of the way to a solution.” You know, if I say I had a hard time stepping on to my right foot, the minute I say it, it’s because I realize I’m not shifting my weight over my right foot to get there. The minute you say it, you start to realize what the problems are and then you figure out the rest and get it right.

So, when I sit there with my developers— and I am not a code writer— you know, they’ll say “Well, it won’t right click.” “Why?” “Well, because it doesn’t want to right click.” “Why?” “Well, because the mouse only has a left click.” “But why does it only have a left click?” It’s almost like be a 5-year-old and say “but why, but why” and then you keep going. And then usually, the next day, they’re like “Hey, Alex, look at this.” And they figured it out. And by asking why, and then why, and then why and going down that path, it’s almost like you’re peeling the skin of an onion. The problem is an onion and you just peel away the layers. You get to the core. And the core is the solution. It’s there. You just keep— Little by little, you go through that process. So, what I learned in my ballet class from honestly a person who doesn’t count beyond 8 I have applied to these super-duper magical, you know, code writing demons that I have the privilege of working with.

John: Yeah. And plus, you have fresh eyes in there in the trenches. And so, for them to, you know, “it just doesn’t work”, whatever, and you have a different view and a different angle, and it’s great to slow it down, like you said, and work it through with them and then they come up with a solution. You don’t have the solution or the answers, but you help them to see it differently. And that’s such a great takeaway that you wouldn’t even— Like no one in any of your education told you, you know, go learn ballet because it will make you a better cofounder and president.

AlexAnndra: Yeah. It’s problem solving. And I don’t know if anybody in a ballet class would say “Yeah, this is problem solving.” Because I work with computers, so I’m like “Oh, this is problem solving.” I have that perspective.

John: Yeah. And it’s awesome that it spills over like that. That’s really cool. And so, is ballet something that you’ve talked about with coworkers or clients throughout your career?

Is it something that people know about?

AlexAnndra: Yeah. I mean, I’ve had some of my coworkers who’ve actually like come to some of my performances, which is kind of fun or a little risky depending on how you look at it.

John: Yeah. That’s awesome though I would imagine because, I mean, I think the risky side is in our head as the performer. I mean, I was a comedian. So, yeah, when people would come, I’m like “Ahhh.” You know? But then you do it enough and you’ve done it enough too where it’s like “Look, I’m doing my show. If you’re here, great. If you’re not here, I’m doing the same show.”

AlexAnndra: Yeah. For me, it’s so much fun just to be on that stage. And just to be fair, I’m more like a prop.

John: No.

AlexAnndra: I’m more like the scenery that I am an actual decorate. I’m just kind of back there in the cast in the background, but I don’t really care because I’m having a great time. Being on a stage is like being in the page of a storybook the way it’s all decorate. It’s all fantasy, and it’s so much fun.

John: Yeah! And you’re on fire. You’re in your element and this is me. And they get to see you on fire, which is great, you know, and that’s got to be cool. I mean, I would imagine 100% of the time they’re excited about seeing you, you know, and they think it’s awesome. And the risky part is in our own head and not at all in there, you know.

AlexAnndra: And that’s the other thing you learn, I think, doing a production like that. On stage, as a dancer, that performance is as good as the worst dancer on stage. So, if your dancing partner is messing up, you gotta help them. And in a business, your business, your product is as good as the worst part of it. Your production team, your coding team is as good as the worst coder, so lift them up and bring them up to speed or, unfortunately, sometimes you just have to cut bait.

John: Sure. Yeah. But you try.

AlexAnndra: You try. It’s a team effort.

John: Yeah. No. I love that. That’s such a great parallel as well. And I guess how much do you think it matters on an organization to create the space to allow people to share their hands or how much is it on the individual to just kind of start in their little small circle of peers or what have you?

AlexAnndra: I think it’s important for the leaders of the company to create that space because you never know where your best idea is gonna come from. And I think your best ideas come when you’re relaxed, you know. If you’re still intimidated by all your coworkers, you’re gonna be too busy being afraid to think of some great thing. But you know, it’s like people always say “oh, my God, I have the best idea, I dreamt it last night” or “my waking hour is at 4 a.m., I get the best ideas” and it’s because your mind is relaxed. So, the same thing goes to business, but there’s a balance. You gotta keep people motivated. They gotta know who the boss is. They gotta stick to their deadlines. This is not a party.

John: You gotta get work done. Absolutely.

AlexAnndra: You gotta get work done, but I think leaders and colleagues who foster just an open dialog in a relaxed atmosphere so people can be their true selves will ultimately get the best product from their employees.

John: Yeah. Totally. I mean, when I speak, I tell audiences all the time, even organizations I do consulting with, is that if your people aren’t living their best life, they’re not gonna do their best work. And so, you know, how do you make sure and care about them living their best life, you know, and are you doing your ballet? Are you going to ballet shows? Are you going to practice? Like are you doing these things that really light you up?

AlexAnndra: That light you up and give value to your life and that was what was so painful about being in isolation. We didn’t do anything. If we were lucky enough to have jobs where we could, you know, work through a computer and do it on Zoom, we’re basically just sitting there sending emails, and slacking, and doing Zoom meetings and the meeting, at least for me, just started and it’s my company, and I have a lot of vested in it, so it does personally mean a lot to me, but that meaning of life is like “Okay. So, this is it? I wake up. I log in. I log out, watch some TV. What do I do next? Go for a walk? Just stay away from everybody?” You know, it’s those other activities. And getting back to your other question, what makes life worth living? The people that you share them with, they give meaning. You know, a parent might be working at a job they don’t like, but it pays really well and that might pay for their kids’ college. Therefore, it’s worth it. It has meaning beyond just the task that you’re doing.

John: That’s such a great point, you know. And sometimes, it’s so I can have money to go do cool stuff. But if the organization doesn’t know what the cool stuff is or what the meaning is, then you’re just another company with people that work there and whatever. But if you tap into that meaning, then it really makes that sticky and brings that engagement level just really through the roof, and I love that.

That’s awesome. What a great point. And I guess do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe they have an “and” that they think no one’s gonna care about because it has nothing to do with my job?

AlexAnndra: I think whatever that “and” is, just keep doing it and don’t be afraid to do it. Like honestly, if you ever saw me dance, I have a horrible turnout. I don’t know my left from my right. I am not limber. I am not a good dancer at all, but I still love doing it for a lot of different reasons. So, if you like baseball, but you’re not a good baseball player, go play anyway. Find that lead that will want you to compete with them, but there’s a million other people just like you. Just do it anyway. You don’t have to be great at something to do it. If you enjoy doing it, do it.

John: Yeah, I love that.

AlexAnndra: Don’t stay on the sidelines.

John: That’s so perfect. That’s so perfect. And what a great way to wrap it up, but I do feel like before we do close the episode, it’s only fair, since I so rudely asked you so many questions at the beginning, that we turn the tables and make it the first episode of the AlexAnndra Ontra podcast. And so, thanks for having me on. I booked myself. But either way, I’m all yours. Whatever you got, ask away.

AlexAnndra: So, I’m always curious and this is a personal question, but sometimes these are the things that motivate people or change people. What was one of the hardest things either personally or professionally that you’ve had to face and how did you get through it to the other side?

John: Yeah. So, there’s several to choose from.

AlexAnndra: Yeah, the list gets longer as we get older.

John: It really does. I’m also sharing my age because my list is very long, but I would probably say one of the ones that was very hard for me was that I had interviewed to be a field producer for The Colbert Report when Stephen Colbert had a show on Comedy Central after The Daily Show. And that was pretty much going to happen and then letterman announced that he’s retiring about 2 weeks later and then Colbert is taking over for Letterman, so then Comedy Central does a hiring freeze and I am now no longer going to be on staff at Colbert Report.

AlexAnndra: Oh, bummer.

John: And that was hard. And it’s hard because you don’t control it. It wasn’t because I’m not good enough or someone was better. It was going to happen and the universe decided otherwise. And actually, thankfully, because of that is what made me shift from more of the comedy only to keynote speaking, and having this whole What’s Your “And”? message, and now being on the AlexAnndra Ontra podcast. You know, like that never would have happened otherwise. So, it’s one of those things where in the moment it hurts and it still stings a little bit. But you know, it’s also so much better on the other side. So, that’s definitely one that was tough.

AlexAnndra: Well, that’s an interesting point that you said that you’ve had no control over. And I think most of the things in our lives we really don’t have any control over.

John: No. You’re right.

AlexAnndra: You can try to micromanage, and control everything, and study, and prepare, but the only thing you can control is how you react to something. That’s the only thing you can control, is your reaction to it. You can’t even control your emotions, but you can control how much space you give those particular emotions to affect what you do going forward.

John: Totally. Your podcast is like therapy. This is great.

AlexAnndra: Well, you’re a very good teacher. So, thanks, John.

John: But that’s a great question though for sure. So, thank you so much, AlexAnndra, for being a part of this.

AlexAnndra: I had so much fun.

John: It’s so great to have you be on What’s Your “And”?

AlexAnndra: I’m glad I got to meet you today.

John: Everyone listening, if you wanna see some really, really cool pictures of AlexAnndra on stage, or maybe connect with her on social media, or check out Shufflrr, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 467 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. The book goes more in depth into the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and now listening to it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and then more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes because I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Brian Streig. He’s a tax director at Calhoun, Thomson and Matza in Austin, Texas, and now he’s with me here today. Brian, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Brian: Hey, John. Glad to be here. It’s a nice day, so I’m glad I’m here.

John: No, I’m excited, and March 2nd is a special day for you. Right?

Brian: It is. It’s Texas Independence Day. What better day to have me on your show.

John: Right? That’s higher than July 4th, for people in Texas. That’s as good as it gets. That’s awesome, man. I have rapid-fire questions. We’ve hung out many times, and yet I’ve never asked you any of these questions. Maybe I should have actually, now that I think about it. We’re going to have some fun here. I’ll start you out with maybe an easy one. Star Wars or Star Trek.

Brian: Star Wars just because as a kid, that was just the favorite show.

John: Yeah, definitely. I agree. Me too. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Brian: Oh, man, a PC all the way. No Macs at all.

John: Right. I don’t even know how they work, to be honest. I really don’t. I’m not even sure. How about your first concert?

Brian: It was Elton John. My mom took me. She was going through a divorce. My dad wasn’t going to go, so she took me, and that was my first concert.

John: That’s a legend, man. That’s great. That’s super cool. That’s awesome. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw puzzles?

Brian: Probably jigsaw puzzles, but I’m not good at any of them.

John: At least you’re honest, man. At least you’re honest. That’s hilarious. How about a favorite color?

Brian: Well, burnt orange, of course.

John: Right. Which leads me to your least favorite color.

Brian: Well, you know that maroon is so blah.

John: Right. I knew it was going to be a red of some sort. Either way, it’s red.

Brian: Crimson isn’t too bad.

John: Yeah. Right. Right. How about, since you’re a Texas guy, tea or sweet tea?

Brian: Well, sweet tea, of course.

John: Okay, but you have to make it right. You’re not just adding packets after.

Brian: Oh, no, no. You have to sit it out in the sun, and it has to just cook and bake into itself. That’s the best cut.

John: There you go. Yeah. Getting the regular tea and then adding packets after, it’s like, what are you doing?

Brian: No, no, no, no.

John: That’s not the same. That’s totally crazy. How about a favorite Disney character?

Brian: Oh, that’s a good one. Probably Mickey Mouse, of course.

John: The classics.

Brian: The classic.

John: Yeah, absolutely. There’s like a million now that they own all the movies of all the kinds, but I love the classics. Yeah, I’m all with you on that. How about a favorite cereal as a kid or adult, whatever.

Brian: I know that nobody else likes it, but Grape-Nuts.

John: Grape-Nuts. Okay. It’s always available. No one else is buying it.

Brian: Yeah. That one came from my dad. He would work late at night. I was set to see him when he came home from work, and he always had a bowl of Grape-Nuts. He gave me some of it.

John: That’s cool. Awesome. All right. How about balance sheet or income statement?

Brian: Income statement. That’s the only thing that matters because that’s how you pay taxes.

John: Right. You can’t pay rent at a balance, liabilities and whatever. It’s like, no, no, cash, the end of the day. Are you more of an early bird or night owl?

Brian: I’m a night owl.

John: Night owl.

Brian: I don’t do mornings.

John: Right. It’s a good thing it’s afternoon right now. We’re good.

Brian: Exactly. Yes.

John: We’re doing good, Brian. Actually, it feels like morning for you probably because it’s early afternoon. Just finished breakfast and.

Brian: Yeah.

John: That’s awesome. How about a favorite number?

Brian: I don’t know. Maybe four. For some reason that just always comes out.

John: Yeah, that’s a solid number. That’s a good pick. Yeah, yeah. This is a question that I ask now because it was something you brought up, so I feel like it’s only fair to turn it on you. If you had to choose, Harry Potter or Game of Thrones.

Brian: I would have always thought Harry Potter, but once I saw Game of Thrones, that was it. It’s Game of Thrones.

John: That was it. Okay. All right. Yeah, because we were hanging out, up in Breckenridge, when you guys were up here, and you were like, what about this? I was like, love it. I feel like if I didn’t ask you, it wouldn’t be right. How about when it comes to books, audio version, real book, or e-book?

Brian: I think the real book. I just like the paper and turning the pages and flipping through and looking back. That’s just me.

John: Yeah. No, I agree. I’m the same way, kind of old school like that. How about, three more, chocolate or vanilla?

Brian: Chocolate, of course. There is a wrong answer.

John: Right. That was awesome. You were almost offended. That was great. You were like, what? How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Brian: Yeah, Matthew McConaughey. I always liked him, growing up, watching his shows. He kind of delves in the political sphere and is big into UT and the soccer in Austin. He’s like a big deal there.

John: All right. No, that’s a great answer. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Brian: Oh, well, I guess my computer because I can take it, the laptop, because I can take it with me to Breck and work there. I can work from anywhere and still get my job done, but still be able to get out and go hiking or go do something in the afternoon.

John: Right? Okay. No, I love it. That’s a great answer, and talk to me, so, even better. There you go. Forget about the work part. Come on, Brian, get your priorities straight. No, but that’s great because, yeah, you can be flexible, and you can travel and still get the work done and all that.

Brian: Yeah. A decade ago, you were stuck to a desk with a desktop, and you couldn’t do anything like that.

John: Yeah, it’s hard to drive to Colorado with a whole desktop in your trunk, just pile it in. I guess you could, but that’s weird.

Brian: Yeah, that’s weird.

John: Right. Right. Yeah, so let’s chat. That dovetails perfectly into several of your “ands” of just, I mean, foodie, for sure is, I mean, on social media, you’re always sharing what you’re cooking or making, what you’re smoking, whatever, all of that stuff. Was that always something that you were into, growing up as a kid?

Brian: No. I grew up as a kid, it was open the can, pour in the pan, heat it up, and that was dinner. Just, my mom didn’t enjoy cooking. It was just something you had to do.

John: Sure.

Brian: Yeah, I didn’t grow up thinking about food at all. As I got older and had time and met Kurt, we just started cooking a lot and exploring different types of foods, some Asian, some Italian, Mexican, like Central Mexico rather than just like Tex-Mex stuff. Go to a restaurant, like something, go home and keep working on it until we figure out how to make it, type of thing.

John: Okay. Yeah, that’s awesome. Do you have something that you’ve made that was a bigger challenge, where it was like, oh, wow, this is crazy that we’re even trying, type of thing?

Brian: I think the hardest is lasagna from scratch, making the noodles, making all the ingredients, putting it all together, getting it all ready. To me, that’s hard in terms of time-intensive. Each step is pretty easy, but it’s a big ordeal.

John: Yeah, that’s going to fill up your whole time sheet for the week.

Brian: Oh, yeah.

John: It is. It is an ordeal, and it makes you appreciate it more when you eat it because it’s like, man, this has been at least eight or 16 hours you’ve been working on it. This is a long process.

Brian: Yeah, the smoker’s the same way. It takes all day. Sometimes we’ll smoke two or three turkeys the day before Thanksgiving so that we have one for us to keep at the house, one to take with us to the family. It’s like an all-day affair.

John: Yeah. That’s awesome, man. Because you’re so invested in it, do you look forward to eating it more then?

Brian: Oh, yeah. Yeah. That’s why we almost never go out to eat anymore, just because we enjoy the process of cooking and making it and tasting it. We’ll always put our spin on it. There’s always like, some pepper in there, some red pepper flakes, jalapeno, serrano.

John: A little extra kick.

Brian: Yeah, we’ll make it our own somehow.

John: Yeah. No, that’s great, man. I love it. It’s experimenting. Worst case scenario, it doesn’t work and then we order a pizza, whatever. Or you just chunk it down, and we do better next time.

Brian: Exactly.

John: I’m sure you guys have it dialed in pretty well now.

Brian: I think so. There are a few times we’ve tried some Asian dishes that didn’t turn out quite like we thought. Maybe we put in a little too much garlic or put in too much of something else. It’s like, oh, I don’t think that was it.

John: Right. Well, you just don’t do it again, and we’re all good. Also hiking and just being outdoors, that’s a huge part of being in Colorado, especially, when you guys are up here.

Brian: Yeah. Colorado, it’s so pretty. There are so many trails. In Austin, it’s great. There’s hiking there. We go down to Towne Lake all the time. When you get up to Colorado, it’s a completely different scenery. The air is thinner. It’s more challenging, in a sense, in that regard. It’s just a lot of fun just to get out there, take the dog, let him off leash and go. If there’s a stream, he’ll go straight in and go swimming and playing around. It’s just a great way to get out and do something. It’s not as strenuous as biking. If you ever see Tony Nitti, there’s no way I could do the stuff that he goes down. I’ll just take a leisurely stroll and meet him up the next day.

John: Yeah, right. I’ll catch you on the way back.

Brian: Yeah, you can lap me a couple of times.

John: Right. I’m good with it. I’m totally cool with it. Yeah. Colorado is so awesome in that regard, where in the winter, there’s the snowboarding, and that I know you do, and then in the summer, there’s the hiking and the trails and all that. There’s always outdoorsy stuff to do. It’s funny because when I travel, people ask, well, are you really outdoorsy? I was like, well, Colorado outdoorsy or, because that’s a whole another level. My hands don’t have calluses all over them. I’m outdoorsy to an extent, but not Colorado outdoorsy. That’s the next level, live off the grid for who knows how, I’m like, no, I’m good.

Brian: Exactly.

John: Cool to look at, walk around in a little bit, and then head back home. That’s always good.

Brian: Exactly. Yeah.

John: Yeah. No, that’s awesome, man. Do you feel like any of this bleeds over into work at all, as far as a mindset or a skill set?

Brian: I think it does, especially open stores, especially in Austin, because so many people come up to Colorado to go skiing in the wintertime. That’s a nice icebreaker. Oh, yeah, we go up to Breckenridge, and they’ll say, oh, yeah, we go to Steamboat. We’ll start comparing stories and talking about car drives back and forth. It’s just a way to really break that ice and get to know somebody and what they like to do.

John: Yeah, and so many people from Texas come to Colorado. It’s wild. It’s so many.

Brian: Yeah. Especially off-season, most of the parking lots seem to have more Texas licenses than Colorado licenses.

John: That’s amazing. I totally believe it, from just being here for the last four years or so, four and a half. That’s awesome. That relatability, how much does that matter? Because it’s like, well, I’m getting the work done or whatever. How much does being relatable matter?

Brian: Oh, man, I think it matters a whole lot because then you’ve got that rapport, an additional level of trust that’s already just inherent because you have this commonality with somebody. It does go a long way of smoothing over something if it were to come up later on.

John: Yeah. No, I agree, but a lot of people are like, well, we get paid to do the work. We don’t get paid to get to know each other, or we don’t get paid to socialize. It’s like, well, you kind of do, actually, because that’s how business happens.

Brian: Exactly.

John: There are humans on each side of the table on this.

Brian: Yeah. You can always bring up food. Especially in Texas, you talk about the smoker. Oh, I’ve got this kind. Oh, you’ve got a trigger. Oh, yeah. What kind of wood pellets do you use? Oh, we don’t use, oh, no, no. We use cedar. There’s always something that you can get into.

John: Yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah, you’re right. In Texas, food’s always good. Then going to Colorado is awesome. They’ve been at least once, if they’re from Texas, for sure, once last week. I love that and how important that is and how crucial that is. I would imagine too, does any of the food prep translate to, especially the tax work, where there’s kind of a science to it, a little bit?

Brian: I think it does. If you think about making something from scratch, it’s the same as putting together a tax return. You have to get all the ingredients together. There are processes and steps you have to go through, or it’s not going to turn out correctly. Yeah, there’s a lot of similar thinking and processes as you do that.

John: Yeah. I just thought it as we were talking, and I was like, oh, wow. Yeah. Then you just add a little pepper to both and then everybody wins.

Brian: Exactly. Exactly. Or some Parmesan.

John: Right. Why is this in the mail? That’s weird. Pepper flakes. What? That would be awesome. Is this something that, I mean, clearly you do talk about at work, have you talked about, all your career, food or hiking or other outside-of-work interests?

Brian: I don’t think so. I don’t think, until I got to this place in 2007.

John: Oh, okay.

Brian: Before then, it was more, everybody was just robotic, going through the motions. When I came to Calhoun, Thomson and Matza, a lot of that changed. It was more open, and everybody did start talking about stuff outside of work and interests and sharing those kinds of things. It makes a better environment.

John: Is it the tone at the top sort of thing?

Brian: Oh, yeah, definitely. Rich Matza who ran the Tax Department, he was really big into that. It really made a big difference and filtered down into just how we all get along. Every staff meeting usually starts off with something about that. What did you do this weekend? What did you cook? What are you making this weekend? type thing.

John: Okay. That’s awesome. I love how you’re lighting up. I can see you’re smiling, and you’re happy about that. I’m like, well, can you tell me the latest tax update? Probably not as big of a smile. Well, you know what they changed last week? They changed it again this week.

Brian: Probably while we’re talking, they’ve changed something else.

John: They changed it back to one from six months ago. You’re like, we could have just left it. What is going on? Yeah, but I love that concept of how the partner that ran the Tax Department just, that was how it was. When you joined, you were like, oh, okay, that’s what we do here. It’s literally that easy. That’s what we do here, and then everyone does it.

Brian: Yeah. It makes a big difference. I think you can tell, just in the turnover that we’ve had, or lack of it, compared to industry standards and norms, that it does make a difference in terms of feeling welcomed and feeling like you fit in, type thing.

John: I love that. That’s awesome. Yeah, because I imagine, I was going to ask what the difference was from places you had worked before and then here, when you started. It’s almost a black and white, night and day situation.

Brian: It is. To me, in my head, it’s like prehistoric times versus modern times. You and I both came into accounting in the pre-modern era.

John: Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Brian: You just went in. You ground as hard as you could, as late as you could, and went home and crashed. You started the next day and did the same thing. Somewhere in the 2000s, people got smart and said, that’s just not the way you can live.

John: It’s not sustainable. Yeah.

Brian: Yeah.

John: For sure.

Brian: It’s like a gradual thing. My firm felt like an early adopter of some of that stuff, but I think over the last decade, you’re really starting to see it. It’s really starting to differentiate, and firms that are adopting it really do seem to thrive better than those old styles firms.

John: Yeah. The technology is certainly a big piece of it, but it’s also just the mentality of, we have humans that work here. We hired the whole human. We hired all of Brian, not just the tax accounting part of Brian, and so let’s shine a light on and celebrate these other sides of him that are cool. As long as it’s not illegal or taboo, then let it rip.

Brian: Exactly. Well, and that was one of the things that Rich always made a point of, is, if people had kids, that they left and went to games or recitals or something, because he said when he was working his way up through one of the Big Four, that just wasn’t something he could do. He just felt like he missed out, so he made a point of almost running people out of the office, if he knew that they had something for their kids that they were going to miss if they didn’t leave.

John: Yeah. It’s so great because it’s the opposite of what you hear from other people, which is, well, that’s how I had to do it, so you have to do it, too. It’s, no, that’s how I had to do it, and it sucked, so you’re not going to have to do what I had to do. That’s somebody that you want to stay with, and you want to work for. That’s a leader, not a manager. It’s not somebody you have to follow. You want to follow them. That’s cool to hear, man. That’s awesome. No wonder you’re still there. That’s great.

Brian: Yeah. He retired, so I try to keep up the same standards in terms of doing the same thing for the staff and reminding them, hey, you need to leave. You were talking about this event that you wanted to go to, so, go.

John: Right. Yeah, and then tomorrow, when you come in, tell me about it. How was it? Then they light up. They’re excited, and there’s that emotion in the workplace. I know you guys do a lot of remote work as well. Does that help keep those connections?

Brian: It does, and it doesn’t. We’ve started to lose some of those connections because we’ve been remote since COVID started.

John: Right. Wow. Yeah.

Brian: We actually closed down our office, end of May 2021.

John: Oh, wow. Okay, fully remote. Okay.

Brian: There are some differences. There are people that work for me that I’ve never met in person or just through, like, a lunch, but it’s never like worked in the office next door and could just walk over there and get those little chit chats when you go get coffee or go to the printer or something. We have to make efforts to try to recreate some of those informal conversations with Slack and Zoom and team lunches, when it’s possible.

John: Yeah. Definitely. Because in person, we’re humans, at the end of the day, we want to be around each other. We definitely want to do that to some degree, and you get to know somebody so much better just being around them for eight hours, instead of popping onto a Zoom call for 20 minutes, and then off, or Teams meeting or whatever it is. It’s like, we didn’t even chit chat or some water cooler talk, just that normal stuff that humans need, type of thing. It’s cool to hear that you’re at least trying to bring some of that in, when you can.

Brian: Yeah, yeah. It’s a learning process. There’s a balance, but, yeah, we’re trying our best to find a way to make it work.

John: Absolutely. Absolutely. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that has a hobby or a passion, but they feel like no one’s going to care because it has nothing to do with my job?

Brian: Yeah. I just think don’t even worry about if they care or not, just start talking about it. Because if they don’t care, does it really matter? It doesn’t. They’re not going to fire you because you’re talking about how you like to go to concerts. The chances are, they’re going to talk about, oh, yeah, I’d like to do that too. Or I went to a concert for this band. Did you see it? It’s a very low risk type of a thing to start talking about.

John: Exactly. I love it, man. Yeah, because 99.9% of it is in our head. Then you share it, and then all of a sudden, it’s cool. Everybody likes it, and they’re now talking about it. You’re now the smoker guy. What are you cooking? What are you making? That’s awesome. You actually know who I am.

Brian: Yeah, and if you follow the tax Twitter group, there’s some people that do knitting. That’s actually really cool. They’ve shown some stuff and like, wow, that’s really neat. I would have never thought you would do that. It’s so cool.

John: It’s like adult show and tell, sort of, except for we have adult money, and we can do really awesome things now, instead of bringing in a Matchbox car in first grade. It’s like, this is awesome, type of thing. It humanizes you too. Especially when you’re a director level, it’s hard to remember, when you were coming out of school, what it was like to talk to a director.

Brian: Oh, yeah. I remember the Big Four, you just cringed when a partner director got in the elevator with you. You were the only two, and you’re just trying not to act like a dork.

John: He didn’t probably even notice that you were even in the elevator, which is what’s so sad about it. Yeah, they’re like, whatever. That’s awesome, man. Well, that’s such great words of encouragement. This has been super awesome to have you be a part of this. I feel like it’s only fair, since I rudely asked you all those questions at the beginning, that I turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Brian podcast. I’m all yours, man, whatever you want.

Brian: All right. American football or European football.

John: Oh, man, that’s a tricky one actually because I do like both. I guess I’ll say college American football. It’s very different than the professional. That being said, soccer you can turn on anytime, and it’s usually, although American MLS is not always fun to watch. It’s kind of frustrating to watch, honestly. They’re all good, but they’re just not the same.

Brian: It’s not the same.

John: Yeah, I’ll go college football, college American football.

Brian: Mountains or the beach.

John: People ask me that all the time. I feel like I’m spoiled from living in Colorado. I see the mountains all the time, so I somewhat take them for granted, I guess. That’s why I think beach because if I’m on a beach, I’m on vacation. I got on an airplane, and I had to fly there. I think I’m going to go with beach on that. It’s also usually warmer, usually, if I’m at the beach, that beach.

Brian: That’s the exact opposite of mine. The reason why I would say mountains because I’m getting away from the heat, and I’m getting to somewhere that I’m not around all the time.

John: I guess, I, a little bit, take it for granted, for sure. You’ve got one more?

Brian: One more. Hamburger or hot dog.

John: Hamburger. Easy one. I’ll get super confused if they make hamburger meat into a hot dog. I don’t know what I’ll do then. Hamburger for sure, easy, easy, easy. Well, Brian, thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? It’s so awesome to have you be a part of this.

Brian: Hey, thank you for having me. This has been a lot of fun.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Brian in action or maybe connect with him on social media or follow him on Twitter, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there, and while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 465 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. It goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and now listening to it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Nayo Carter-Gray. She’s the CEO of First Step Accounting out of Baltimore, Maryland, and now she’s with me here today. Nayo, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Nayo: Oh, my gosh, I’m so excited to be here.

John: This is going to be a blast. We’ve been talking for a long time, and now we get to record it and share it with the world, so I’m excited for this. I have my 17 rapid-fire questions, get to know Nayo out of the gate here. I feel like I should buckle up for these answers. Normally it’s the guest I’m telling to buckle up, but I feel like I need to be ready. Here we go. I’ll start out easy. Favorite color.

Nayo: My favorite color is blue.

John: Mine too. Okay, we can keep going. How about a least favorite color?

Nayo: My least favorite color probably is brown. It’s so funny because I am a brown person, but I feel like it washes me out. It’s just one of those colors that’s really hard to match up or find something to coordinate with. I’ve been really actively working on adding more brown in my wardrobe this year because I dislike it so much. I’m like, I just need to embrace the suck. Right?

John: Okay, okay. Yeah, brown is a pretty common least favorite color. It’s almost like it’s just there so then the color can pop. It’s like khakis.

Nayo: Yes.

John: They’re just there so then the shirt looks good. Yeah, I hear you on that. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Nayo: My favorite actor is Larenz Tate, and that’s because he is yummy and dreamy. If I see him in public, he probably would get accosted. My husband also knows that that is my hall pass, so if at any given opportunity I see Larenz Tate, just know.

John: It’s on. It’s on.

Nayo: Yes.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so awesome. Maybe he needs his taxes done. Who knows? He needs some accounting work.

Nayo: Right. That would be awesome.

John: Right? There you go. There you go. I have to deliver these in person. I don’t know why. This is my only client that I have to deliver in person, but it’s just how I do it here, full service. That’s awesome. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw puzzles?

Nayo: Probably Sudoku.

John: Okay.

Nayo: Yeah, because they have Sudoku games on the phone. I’m really big into technology. If it has a mobile app, more than likely, I will play it. At the same token, I do like Scrabble, which I consider like a…

John: It’s kind of crossword-y.

Nayo: Yeah, kind of crossword-y, but just like New York Times crosswords, that is not my jam.

John: No, no, no. I don’t even know what these words are. I don’t know how to spell that.

Nayo: Right. Exactly. I like Math, not English.

John: Right. Right. Amen. Amen. How about your first concert?

Nayo: Oh, my first concert, I believe, was MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice.

John: Yes.

Nayo: Probably it was around the time when Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles came out, so it was like a real big energetic concert. I believe that was my first one.

John: Man, Hammer and Vanilla Ice together, that’s amazing. That’s a lot of parachute, a lot of billowy pants, a lot, a lot.

Nayo: A lot of dancers too, a whole lot of dancers.

John: 50 people on the stage at one time. It’s like, where’s Hammer at? I don’t know.

Nayo: I’m sure we were in the nosebleed seats. I was just excited to hear the music.

John: Yeah. No, that’d be awesome. I had that album or CD, I guess, back in the day. How about, this is a fun one, favorite toppings on a pizza?

Nayo: Toppings on a pizza, mushroom and pineapples.

John: Oh, okay. I’ve never heard of those. Okay.

Nayo: I do like mushrooms and pineapple, and if it’s a barbecue chicken pizza, I’m more than likely going to eat it.

John: Yeah, I’ll have that too. Just load it up, just all of it, just pile it on.

Nayo: See, but that’s the thing. I’m not really a load-it-up kind of girl.

John: Yeah, but simple.

Nayo: Most of the time, yes, give me three toppings or less. Anything more than that, I’m like, it’s overkill. This is no longer pizza.

John: Now I’ve to get a fork.

Nayo: Yeah, it’s too much. I love a good New York style slice. I’m a thin slice girl, eat the pizza on the street, so hot that it’s burning the roof of your mouth. I love me some extremely hot cheese pizza.

John: There you go. Just a slice.

Nayo: Yes.

John: That’s awesome. I love it. That’s so good, so good. How about, yeah, you’re East Coast, planes, trains or automobiles?

Nayo: Planes all day, every day. You can get me on a plane and go anywhere. I am willing and able and ready with a passport.

John: There you go. Oh, with the passport. We’re going international. Okay, okay. All right. Preferably. Are you more window seat or aisle seat?

Nayo: I used to be window seat, but now I’m aisle seat because the older I get, the more my bladder says, ma’am, we need to not be hopping over people while we’re on the plane for more than two hours. I definitely turned into an aisle seat kind of girl.

John: That’s awesome. No, no. I’m aisle as well, mostly long legs but, yeah, same reason. I don’t want to have to get up over people. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Nayo: Star Wars. Even though I do love my Star Trek, Star Wars, though, I’m just so amazed at all of the animated creatures that are in these new movies. Just seeing the creativity that goes, it’s like, who thought of this animal with these words that are coming out of their mouths? Somebody, translate. Right now, I’m watching Boba Fett. I’m like, this is crazy. Yeah, definitely Star Wars.

John: That’s awesome. How about your computer, PC or Mac?

Nayo: PC, and that’s because just about all the programs I use are PC-based, even though I have an iPhone and an iPad.

John: Okay, so everything else.

Nayo: Yeah, but for computer use, PC is the way to go for me.

John: There you go. There you go. How about a favorite day of the week?

Nayo: Oh, that’s a good one. I like to say Mondays because I crush it on Mondays. Monday is really, usually a very heavy phone talk to people day, so I am in sales mode. I am an extroverted extrovert so, for me, that’s probably my favorite day because I get to talk to a bunch of random people and learn about their businesses or what their needs are and then put my salesperson hat on and say, “Let me tell you why I’m so great and you want to work with us.”

John: Right. You already knew it, but I’m going to make sure you know it.

Nayo: Yes.

John: I love it. That’s awesome. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Nayo: Oh, there is an ice cream company here in Baltimore called Taharka Brothers, and they have this ice cream flavor called Honey Graham. It is my absolute favorite. It’s a local creamery, and it’s got graham cracker chips all in it. It’s just really sweet and creamy and lush. So, if I’m going local, it’s Honey Graham. If I’m going national, it would be something like Haagen-Dazs’ Vanilla Bean, which is different than vanilla. It’s vanilla bean.

John: Oh, no, Vanilla Bean is, yeah, it’s a little snooty. I’m not going to lie. It’s a little snooty.

Nayo: Or either the Caramel de Leche.

John: Oh, yeah, Dulce de Leche.

Nayo: Yes, but it’s got the waffle cones in it, so it’s like caramel cone de leche something, but those two are my favorites.

John: Nice. I love that local one though. That sounds great. That sounds really good. Really good. How about balance sheet or income statement?

Nayo: Balance sheet all day.

John: Oh, all day. Okay.

Nayo: Yes. Balance sheet tells you a whole lot about a business. I like to really see if my businesses are hustlers or if they’re hobbies or if they’re really in business. I can tell a lot about a business by looking at their balance sheet. I want to see what those accumulated earnings are looking like.

John: Ah, there you go. There you go. You just didn’t have one good year. It’s like, yeah, how’s it piling up. I like it. We’ve got four more. Are you more of an early bird or night owl?

Nayo: I am totally a night owl. That whole early morning thing, the only time I’m excited about the early morning is if I’m getting on a plane to go somewhere.

John: Okay. International, to somewhere warm.

Nayo: Yes. I would rather stay up ‘till 4 AM as opposed to getting up at 4 AM.

John: There you go. I like it. I like the way you think. All right. How about a favorite number?

Nayo: Oh, my favorite number is four. I have two actually. It’s four and seven, and the reason being is because, for whatever reason, whenever it came to school and being called on the roll, I was either number four or number seven.

John: Oh, okay. All right. Yeah, with the Carter, there you go, with the Cs.

Nayo: Yes. It’s like, if I go play the lottery, four and seven always make it to my sheet.

John: Those are good numbers though. Those are solid. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Nayo: Real book because audio books are, I consider that cheating. It’s really cheating.

John: That is cheating because you can do double speed, and you’re just reading a book in two hours.

Nayo: Yeah, and I’m not as engaged when I’m listening to audio books. I find that I tune them out. The one audio book though that I did listen to and enjoy was Bill Clinton’s autobiography. It was because it was in his voice. It was like, oh, the President’s talking to me, that’s kind of cool.

John: Right. Right.

Nayo: Other than that, audio books, I’m like, no, thank you. I’d rather have a real book and flip the pages, even though I love my Kindle, but give me a real book where I can dog ear and put some flags on it.

John: There you go. All right. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Nayo: The favorite thing I own. That’s anything that has technology built in. I’m a real techie, so I love all of my little tech gadgets. If I had to pick one right now, one guilty pleasure that I’m absolutely in love with is my Ember mug. It’s because it keeps my drink hot, and they come in these pretty colors now. I have a bronze one here at the office, and then I’ve got a black one at home. It’s an expensive luxury because this is, it took me a while. I had to have a talk with myself about buying this mug because it’s like, it’s a mug. Why are you spending over $100 for a mug? It definitely helps me enjoy my morning cup of coffee or my tea because it keeps it hot.

John: Yeah. If you use it every day, it’s 30 cents a day. What do you need?

Nayo: Oh, I love it, 30 cents a day. You framed it for me, so now I don’t feel guilty about my purchase.

John: Just everyday, putting a quarter, a nickel in the jar and then there we go. We paid for it. There we go.

Nayo: Boom. Love it.

John: That’s so awesome. I want to know more about paper crafting. How did you get started in this? I’m sure that we all did some sort of paper crafting in elementary school. We called it art, supposedly, and then our parents acted excited to get this thing that was terrible. Is that where it got started, or were there other influences as well?

Nayo: If I think back to it, that’s probably where it did get started. My dad is very artsy. He can draw calligraphy. He loves photography. My dad can sew. My dad is really creative, and my mom is the complete opposite. She’s very straight laced. Things are black and white with her. She’s a neat freak. I’m like a mix of both of them. My dad encourages that creative stuff, and I realized that having just the mindset of, oh, let’s do something with our hands, see how you can transform something, really helps me in my day to day because it gives me something else to build and grow and transform. It started at elementary school. We did papier-mache, and I was amazed how I could take some newspaper and take an old soda bottle and turn it into a lady and paint it and present this to my dad as a gift. Believe it or not, he still has this.

John: Okay. Okay. Well, you were probably really good. That’s probably why.

Nayo: God, no. It is terrible. The lady is not smooth at all. Bless his soul, he was kind to his daughter, and he has held on to this papier-mache woman bottle for all of these years. Later on in life, one thing I realized is that I absolutely love papers. I will go to the office supply store and just browse the paper aisle. People don’t realize that papers have different weights, different textures, different colors, different sheen. It started there. Then I started doing some research. I worked with a lady who did scrapbooking, and I was like, what is this scrapbooking thing? She would show me these beautiful books she created with pictures of her kids. I was like, see, this is better than looking at just a plain old photo album.

John: Right. Yeah.

Nayo: Yeah. I started going to the arts and crafts store and buying those, they have these big books of paper, and they have all different designs on them. I was like, oh, this is cool. I started making cards, or envelopes actually, because I think if you’re going to get a piece of mail, if it shows up in an envelope that doesn’t look like a bill, you are more inclined to open it. I started by making envelopes, but then when I got married, I was like, I’m not liking any of these wedding invitations. I was like, I’m going to create something for myself that I absolutely love. I was scrolling Pinterest and came across a couple of designs, and I said, okay, how can I make this for me? I went to, there is a whole conference about paper. It is a paper trade show.

John: Nice. Okay. It’s like the Super Bowl of paper.

Nayo: Super Bowl of paper, I love it. It was in New York. I took the Megabus up and went to this show and was blown away with what all these people were doing with papers. I made a contact. We have a couple of vendors. I started ordering some samples, and I created my wedding invitation. It was such a big hit that all of my guests was like, oh, I’m coming to a fancy wedding, because I took it to the next level. It was a peacock-themed wedding. I had the wedding invitation with the peacock feather that was embedded in, and we have the colors. We did an ombre, like purple and teal and blue. The paper was a metallic silver.

John: Yeah. Oh, wow.

Nayo: Yeah. That project just opened my eyes. Oh, this is fun. I wind up doing it again for one of my girlfriends who was getting married. I did it for her. I was like, this is my wedding gift. Don’t ask me for a present. This is the gift.

John: Then you came in wearing a papier-mache dress to go callback to when you were a kid. There’s a lady in a papier-mache. There it is. She’s coming alive. Okay, not really.

Nayo: That’s funny.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah, and people are like, these are amazing. This is a fancy wedding, like you said. It’s what I do. It’s what I do.

Nayo: We got so many calls about those invitations. They were like, am I supposed to wear a tuxedo to this wedding? They were like, I don’t know what to wear. Is this formal? Because the invitations were completely over-the-top formal, but I was like, this is my day, so it’s going to be fancy.

John: Yeah, totally. If you’re going to do it, might as well do it nice. That’s great. That’s really cool. Then it just kept going?

Nayo: It kept going from there. I have done about three or four wedding invitations. I’ll do cards for my loved ones. Whenever I need to just walk away from a project, I will just go and maybe do, I have all these different tools. I can make stickers now.

John: Oh, wow.

Nayo: Yeah. As a matter of fact, last year, so I’m a big planner person. I wanted to track how many new bookkeeping clients we got, so I created these little butterflies that have the base of the butterfly was a particular color. I put some, it’s like a sheer paper over top of it, and then I will write the clients’ name on the butterflies, stick it in the back of my planner. It was cool to see how many butterflies, my little ombre-colored butterflies at the back of my planner.

John: I love it. That’s awesome. Yeah, and then you could see what they were. Because when you’re in the heat of it all, you kind of forget. Wow, look at all the people we’re helping and look at all the new work we have.

Nayo: It’s a visual representation that is very pleasing to the eyes. One of the things I like to do is really create that space for me to visually see, this is happy time. Even with my office, I put my little designer hat on and said, how can I build a space that is lovely and beautiful? Even though it’s not paper, it still translates into, this is what I will want something to look like, and I transformed this blank, gray slate into something that is very colorful and friendly and light and airy, which is what I do with the cards.

John: Visually appealing. Yeah, which, on a bigger umbrella, is what you’re doing, just a lot of times it comes through in paper.

Nayo: Yes.

John: It’s through other things, too. That’s awesome. Do you feel like any of this gives you a skill that you bring to work?

Nayo: It does because it helps me see how the smaller details can make such a large impact. One of the things people don’t realize about me is that I really do spend a lot of time designing a bunch of things for my business. I did the Taking Your Firm Virtual Summit. When you see the sales page and how it has all of these elements with the colors or the videos and the placements and the bullets, even down to adding all of the emojis. Just being able to say, okay, the page is white. How can we make this visually appealing? It’s like me taking the different papers and putting them together and merge them to make them look beautiful and visually appealing. Yeah, so, definitely translates.

John: I love that because it’s a different muscle that you’re exercising outside of work, and then when it comes time to use it at work, you’re like, oh, I’ve got this. It’s a different lens that I look through, and I want it to be this way for the users. I love that so much because that’s above and beyond the accounting technical skills that you have, but it makes you better at your job.

Nayo: It absolutely does, and it makes me better at Instagram reels too.

John: Right, which no one told us about in accounting school. You better be good at Instagram reels. That’s amazing. That’s so funny. Is this something that you talk about and share with colleagues and clients? Do they know about this? Or does it just come out, and then they say, wow, this looks amazing, and you’re like, I know because I’ve been doing this since I was four.

Nayo: It’s just one of those things that comes out. Every once in a while, I’ll share one of my designs, and people say, “Oh, where did you get that from?” I’ll be like, I made it. They’re like, “You didn’t make that. You’re lying.” Or they’ll get something in the mail from me, and they won’t even realize I really made that envelope that that letter went in. They’re like, I was wondering where you bought that envelop from. Because, again, I’m big fan of.

John: It’s one of a kind, one of a kind.

Nayo: Yes. Exactly.

John: That’s how much I think about you. That’s cool, though. I would imagine that the conversation then goes further, and it’s a little bit of a deeper relationship maybe, a little bit of a different relationship.

Nayo: Yeah, it can be. They feel special. I call them these little delightful moments. Every once in a while, you want your people to really understand that you have created something for them. They feel like, oh, she did this just for me. I’m like, I absolutely did. I may have chosen a color that I just knew you would absolutely love or chosen a pattern that I’m like, this is fitting your personality. Even if the piece of paper ends up in the trash or in a box in the closet, when they go back and look at it, like, I like this. I need to figure out where she got this from. So, yes, definitely a conversation starter sometimes.

John: Yeah. It’s just another dimension to you, beyond helping their business, doing accounting or what have you. It’s, well, no, there are other sides to me, too. Then maybe it unlocks the other sides to them as well. You come across another crafter. We’re never going to hang up. I’ve only got one call on Monday now, and it’s going to take eight hours. There we go.

Nayo: Right, and then I find somebody to go with me to the paper trade show.

John: Exactly. Then you get two seats on the Megabus for $2.

Nayo: There you go.

John: That’s awesome, though. I love how you’ve recognized how it manifests at work, which is cool because sometimes it’s just, you don’t really notice it until after the fact. That’s really, really cool. Is this something that you would share even before you had started First Step? Is it something that maybe came out earlier as well, or was it pretty much all work all the time?

Nayo: Even now, I’m usually all work all the time. I love accounting. I love that I get to do this all day, every day, and I get jazzed up by serving my clients. Every once in a while, it’s like, okay, I need a break. I need to do something creative. I need to create, what I call, something beautiful because every once in a while, we have the clients who don’t really understand what we do, so they don’t value the balance sheet.

John: Right. Right.

Nayo: I’ll step away and create maybe a paper flower or my little butterflies. I’ll go to the arts and crafts store and just buy something and just, let’s see what we can make today. Sometimes, half of my my little creations don’t see the light of day. It’ll just be me practicing, starting something and seeing how it turns out, and then I’ll be like, okay, I’ll come back to this project later.

John: Yeah, you go to your happy place.

Nayo: Yes, exactly.

John: It’s like, you know what, I need a little bit of break. This is what brings me joy. It’s one of those where, if I told you, you could never do crafting again, it would be like, ah, that’s a source of joy for me. That’s my go-to.

Nayo: Yeah.

John: Because accounting is joyful sometimes, but sometimes it’s not. Crafting is always great. It’s always good. It’s always there for you. I think it’s really cool that you have that. You could step away, and you’re doing it for you. It doesn’t have to be something that sees the light of day. I enjoy crafting. Am I any good? It doesn’t matter because I’m doing it for me.

Nayo: That’s right.

John: Clearly, you are because you’re mailing stuff to people. You’re not going to let that out. That’s awesome. Do you have any words of encouragement to people listening that maybe they like crafting, or maybe they have an “and” that they feel like no one’s going to care about or it has nothing to do with my job?

Nayo: It’s your “and”. It’s not anybody else’s. We don’t care about what other people think about your “and”. Do the thing. Even if you feel silly, do it anyway. I am a big fan of classes too. If there’s something that you’re like, hey, I want to learn more about this, take a class. There are so many classes. Even the Airbnb experiences, you can find something on Craigslist. I will take a class. The arts and crafts stores will have a little informational setup where they teach you about the products, and you can create a craft right then. So, spend some time doing it, hang out with a girlfriend or a guy friend and just enjoy the moment. Because sometimes it’s not even about the thing you create, it’s about the experience.

John: Totally. Oh, man, that’s so good. I love that. It’s not someone else’s “and”. It’s your “and”. There you go. I love that so much. Well, I feel like it’s only fair, since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning of my episode, that I turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Nayo podcast. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. I’m all yours. Whatever you want to ask, fire away.

Nayo: See, I only really have one question for you.

John: Oh, boy.

Nayo: Because we recently met in person.

John: Right.

Nayo: I was not expecting you’d be as tall as you are. Do you get that often, or was I the only one?

John: I get that all the time.

Nayo: You do?

John: I’m not even freak tall. I’m 6’3”, 6”2-1/2”, 6’3”. Like I was telling people, it’s appropriately tall. I can still sit on an airplane and not be uncomfortable, but I can get things off the top shelf at stores. I’m kind of the best of both — people taller than me, I’m like, what kind of car do you drive? How do you fly on an airplane? How do you do anything in life? This is crazy. I’m like the size of a point guard on an NBA team. They’re this tall. It’s not even — but it is, I get it all the time. It’s because the social media circles are not life-sized, and I’m by myself, so I’m not next to people, for them to be able to size up. Oh, wow, he’s clearly taller than the average person. Yeah, I think I need to add that to my social media profile bio, is just appropriately tall. Then you’ll know.

Nayo: Or surprisingly 6’3”.

John: Yeah, surprisingly 6’3”. Right. Right. Because I don’t want to put 6’3” as if that’s cool. No. I just want you to know so then I don’t get that. I get it all the time, like that all the time. Or it’s like, oh, wow, your voice really does sound like this. I’m like, well, yeah, why would I — like on a podcast, I’m going to fake it? I’ve got a helium tank here, doing a fake voice the whole time I’m doing a show.

Nayo: That is so funny.

John: The stuff people say is pretty awesome, but it means that you’re listening, and you’re following, and you’re making your workplace a better place. I appreciate you being a part of What’s Your “And”? This has been so much fun, Nayo. Thank you so much.

Nayo: I’m so excited. I finally got to connect with you, and you forced me to schedule because my schedule is all over the place. Half the time, I’m like, yeah, I’ll do something, and then my little brain is squirrel, squirrel.

John: It’s all good. Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Nayo’s creations or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Check out those Instagram reels, and while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing to the podcast on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 463 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. It goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and listening to it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Bolanle Williams-Olley. She’s the CFO at Manzini Duffy in New York City and the author of the book, Build Boldly: Chart Your Unique Career Path and Lead with Courage; and now she’s with me here today. Bolanle, thank you so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Bolanle: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to have this conversation.

John: This is going to be a blast, and I can’t wait too, just because you’re living this, and it’s such a great example for everyone to hear. Before we get into the fun, I’ve got super fun, starting out with some rapid-fire questions, get to know you on another level. Maybe an easy one, I don’t know. Favorite color.

Bolanle: Teal.

John: Teal.

Bolanle: Yes, teal. Actually, I have two things I have. Teal is my all-time favorite color, but I love to wear white.

John: Oh, okay. All right. All right. It is funny when I ask that, how often the answers are related to what looks good wearing, clothes-wise.

Bolanle: Oh, really?

John: Teal is a solid color, absolutely, and white. How about a least favorite color?

Bolanle: Black.

John: Black.

Bolanle: Maybe, but I wear a lot of black too.

John: It’s just the opposite of teal and white. They’re so bright.

Bolanle: It’s just the opposite.

John: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. How about, you live in New York City area, favorite toppings on a pizza?

Bolanle: I am so boring with my topping. Maybe a veggie pizza instead, I like a veggie pizza.

John: All the veggies?

Bolanle: Yes, give me the peppers, give me some spice with jalapenos.

John: Oh, okay.

Bolanle: Yeah, that’s good.

John: All right, a little bit of kick to it. I gotcha. All right, do you have a favorite actor or actress?

Bolanle: Yes, Nicolas Cage.

John: Nicolas Cage. Okay. All right. He’s actually super serious but also really funny. He’s been in so many funny movies as well.

Bolanle: Yes. Maybe that’s why I like him. People think I’m serious, but I’m funny sometimes.

John: There you go. How about diamonds or pearls?

Bolanle: Mixed.

John: Oh, okay. Both.

Bolanle: Give me a nice pearl necklace, but let the clasp be like diamond or like my name, my initial in diamond.

John: All of the things. Okay. There you go. There you go. A little Beyonce going on there. I see it. I see it. There you go. How about more cats or dogs?

Bolanle: Dogs.

John: Dogs. Yeah, me too.

Bolanle: Yeah, I’ve got a dog. His name is Jack.

John: Oh, nice.

Bolanle: He’s a Portuguese Water Dog who is going to bust in, any moment.

John: That’s very cool. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw puzzles?

Bolanle: Give me Sudoku.

John: Sudoku. Okay.

Bolanle: Yes. I have a jigsaw on my table right now that I’m working with my kids, and they’ve abandoned it, as always.

John: Right? They’re like, the picture’s on the box. Why are we putting this together?

Bolanle: We started it on Sunday, and then here we are. It’s what, Thursday, and we haven’t made any progress. Probably our second attempt at it.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so funny. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Bolanle: Star Trek. Star Trek.

John: Star Trek.

Bolanle: Star Trek.

John: Or neither, it could be neither. Computers, PC or a Mac.

Bolanle: Mac.

John: Oh.

Bolanle: Everything else is Apple. Even though I’m talking to you right now on a PC, but my whole world, I’ll only use PC because of work. Everything else, big Apple girl.

John: Everything else is apple. I gotcha. How about a favorite season, summer, winter, spring, fall?

Bolanle: Spring and fall.

John: Oh yeah.

Bolanle: Give me a nice 75 degrees.

John: Definitely. Yeah. No, that’s perfect. How about favorite ice cream flavor?

Bolanle: Coffee ice cream on a waffle cone. That is what I’ve done over the past, I don’t know, 15 years. Give me coffee ice cream on a waffle cone.

John: Awesome. Okay. You’re easy. That’s great. How about a favorite day of the week?

Bolanle: Friday, and I’ll say why. Because that’s my no-meetings day. I can actually get work done. I’m the opposite, right? People start Monday, but I have meetings all week. Fridays, for me, I can get some heads down work.

John: That’s great, a no-meetings day. That’s brilliant. I have seven of those a week. No, I’m just kidding. Just joking. Since you have the CFO, accounting background, balance sheet or income statement.

Bolanle: Show me cash, cash. Give me cash.

John: Oh, cash flow. There you go. Okay.

Bolanle: Give me cash.

John: There you go. You’re being honest.

Bolanle: Income statement, I love that, but it’s vanity, man. If that revenue doesn’t convert to cash, we got a problem.

John: Exactly. Exactly. We’ve got four more. Do you have a favorite number?

Bolanle: 27.

John: Yeah. Is there a reason?

Bolanle: Yes, there’s a reason. My birth date is June 27. Then my son is November 2nd, two, and my daughter is January 7th.

John: Oh, there you go. That’s awesome.

Bolanle: You see? That’s why, two and seven.

John: Yeah, absolutely. That’s so good. Are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Bolanle: Early. Early. I’m up early. In bed by 10.

John: Okay.

Bolanle: Yes. People are always shocked if I’m awake after 10:00.

John: Right. Something bad is happening.

Bolanle: Yes.

John: Or it’s about to happen because I’m still awake.

Bolanle: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

John: Since you’ve written the book, Build Boldly, when you’re reading books, audio version, e-book or real book.

Bolanle: I like a combo. I like audio and then the e-book. Have you seen that version?

John: Yeah, where it follows along.

Bolanle: It follows along. However, like right now, I’m reading, I’m listening to Will Smith’s book. He has taken audio books to another level. There’s a full production. If he’s saying a rap line, he’s actually rapping it, and then the music is playing in the background. Everyone needs to listen to that book.

John: Yeah.

Bolanle: I keep thinking how people are reading it. You have to experience Will. Yes, it’s so good.

John: Yeah, that is so good. Now, people are going to be like, why aren’t you rapping in your book, John? Because I’m not a rapper.

Bolanle: Listen, John, we all have to step our games up with our audio books.

John: Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Bolanle: Favorite thing I have, what’s my favorite thing? Maybe this ring that I have, my husband, we’ve now been together since 2008. We’re in ‘22, so, 14 years. He gave me this ring. I always wear it all the time. I think it’s one of my favorite things ever.

John: That’s awesome.

Bolanle: Yeah, I wear it every day ever since he gave me, Valentine’s Day, 2009.

John: Wow. There you go. Very cool. That’s so good. Let’s talk throwing parties and then NGOs and all that fun stuff. Maybe the NGOs, how did you get started? Because there are so many that you’re behind and supporting, how did that get started?

Bolanle: Yeah. My NGO is now about to be nine years old.

John: Wow.

Bolanle: Yes. It used to be called BolaKraft Cares. That was the origin. I used to crochet and knit hats, and I was essentially forced into a business because someone said, “I really like your hats. I’m going to send you money. I’m going to send you money, and send me some hats for my nieces and nephews.” While people used to buy those from me, I really wanted to give back. I was like, I’m going to start a nonprofit, called BolaKraft Cares, where I crochet and donate to NICUs donate to hospitals with cancer or kids with cancer, and that’s how it started. I started doing one project. I was very ambitious. I was like, I’m going to do one project every quarter. Then life happened. I had kids. When you have two under two, you don’t have as much time anymore.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Bolanle: Then really quickly, it evolved because I’m very passionate about education, as well as improving the quality of education for children in Nigeria where I’m from, so, children living in low income communities. I was like, well, what if I made scarves, sold the scarves, get money and then buy resources for children in a school in Nigeria? People just loved it. I said I’ll raise 500 bucks, and I could buy whatever I need to. Well, I ended up selling 30 scarves, which ended up giving me like $1,500, and I was able to support maybe over 200 kids, buying them textbooks, buying them book bags, whatever it is that they needed, buying one of their first computers in this floating community called Makoko in Lagos, Nigeria. The school is on water. That just continued on, in terms of like, okay, I really think I have something here.

John: Yeah, that’s so great because they don’t need scarves in Nigeria.

Bolanle: No, no, they do not. They need resources and opportunity. What happened is that the nonprofit’s vision or mission changed over the course of this nine years where our sole purpose or focus is really going around different low-income communities all across Nigeria and either, one, building schools. In 2019, I built our first school.

John: Nice. That’s so awesome. Wow.

Bolanle: Right? I think it’s incredible because something that started off with me crocheting 20 hats, has now led to.

John: Built a school and more.

Bolanle: Yes, that’s the dream. That’s the dream, to have free centers in all these communities where the children can come in and learn, get education, but also other things, like nutrition. You’re living in low-income community, your only problem is not education; it’s like, what am I going to eat? How do I take care of myself, health-wise? It’s this idea of building an ecosystem of other nonprofits that come together to do great work in these places.

John: That’s really, really awesome.

Bolanle: Thank you.

John: I imagine, with the kids, like you said, two under two, and being close together there, that’s how the throwing party started, or was that even before that?

John: I’ve always liked to throw parties. It started off with my mom throwing me parties, and so maybe I caught the bug there. When I was 27, it became my golden birthday. Like I mentioned, June 27, I was like, I have to have a golden birthday This only happens once in my life. Then I had my daughter. I was like, I have to have a Little Miss Sunshine theme. She’s sunshine. Then I started thinking about her second birthday ahead of time. I really love that outlet because, like you said, I’m a CFO. I’m in numbers every day. My family is full of artists. I was like, why couldn’t I have gotten that bug too? My uncle’s a metal sculptist.

John: Oh, wow.

Bolanle: Yeah. Other folks have the artistic side. This became my outlet. It became a way for me to express myself or lean into the “right side of my brain”. I’m like, oh, I’m using both. I use my left all the time in numbers. Now let me do something fun. That’s the genesis. We’re always thinking about themes. Last year, my daughter turned seven on the seventh, so we had a James Bond themed party. How cool is that?

John: Like 007, I see what you’re doing there.

Bolanle: Like 007 theme, the girl with the golden birthday.

John: Nice.

Bolanle: How could I not do it?

John: Right. Right. We had to, literally. I love how you said that, where it just takes your mind off of, yeah, being a CFO isn’t necessarily an easy job all the time. How important is it for people to have an “and” or something as a release?

Bolanle: I think it’s so important. Again, nine to five, or more hours, you’re spending 40 hours working all the time. If you don’t have some sort of outlet, or you suppress it, you can look back on a 20-year career and be full of resentment. What did I do with my time? What happened? All these things that I love, I put them on the back burner, rather than exploring it, as your career is going, to find fulfillment. Sometimes, there are different situations that could come up. You could be in a job that you’re not fulfilled, but having that outlet allows you to show up every day. Or you’re in a job where you’re fulfilled, and you’re now increasing your capacity to either help others or just have fun. I think it’s so important to have that “and” so that when you look back on life, you look back, and you’re like, yeah, I enjoyed myself. It doesn’t even have to be looking back on life. I say that because it is important, but in the present, though, doing these small things that help you just find your joy.

John: Exactly, and it doesn’t have to always come from work. Sometimes it can. Let’s be honest, sometimes it’s work, but your “and” is always awesome.

Bolanle: Yes.

John: When you’re planning and throwing these parties, when you’re helping these schools and children in Nigeria, that’s always awesome. That’s always great. You can always turn to that as being a source of confidence and joy and all the good things.

Bolanle: Yeah. For me, it’s all about impact. It’s all about serving, which is why I think it’s so important that I lean into the nonprofit. Right now, I think I didn’t mention, but right now, it’s called SheBuildsLives. That’s literally, I’m breathing words into existence. You’re literally building lives of children who may never have had this opportunity to go to school. Some of them are first generation elementary school. Their parents didn’t go to school. I’ll give a really quick cool story.

John: Yeah, please.

Bolanle: Of course, we know COVID happened in 2020. One of the ways in which we pivoted was, how can we deliver education to these children who don’t have access to internet? They can’t go virtual. We thought about radios.

John: There you go.

Bolanle: We can do radio school, and we found out that the state was broadcasting lessons. I was like, why don’t we raise funds to provide radios to these children and think about what happens. Now, not only are the kids listening, their parents also have to listen. Their parents who are not educated and now at home and are able to maybe pick up one or two things from their kids’ education. That was pretty cool.

John: Yeah, because it’s educating not just the kids now, it’s the parents who maybe didn’t have the elementary education, that are also now getting it. That’s so great and such a simple idea where it’s, because here in the US, well, we’re just going to go virtual, everyone’s got laptops, we’ve got internet, whatever. Well, that’s not how it is.

Bolanle: No, no, that’s not how it is. You think about that widening gap. Now we’re getting serious. You think about that widening gap and think about what has happened now in COVID for them.

John: Yeah, it’s even more.

Bolanle: It’s even more, so how could we help during this period to make sure that they are not that far left behind?

John: Yeah. Then what happens is, when they graduate elementary school, you go over and throw the party. Everything’s coming together.

Bolanle: I’m telling you, I’m telling you. This past, in 2021, summer, I visited the school that we built for the first time. I’ve adopted the school over six years, since 2014, sorry, seven years, and they threw me the most amazing welcome. Again, I mentioned, this is a floating community, so it was like a river dance presentation. The moms had on beautiful clothes. They did full presentation for me. I was like, I’m in heaven. I was overwhelmed with all the welcome and the way they did everything. It was perfect. It really was.

John: That’s so great. Do you feel like any of this, the “ands”, translates to work, any skill that you bring or, at the very least, maybe humanizes you for others to be able to relate?

Bolanle: Yes, yes. For me, it’s the relatability too. It’s allowing, because I’m a firm leader, I think it allows my teams or the employees that work at our firm, it allows them the freedom to really be themselves. It’s like, well, if she’s doing that, maybe someway, somehow, I can go do that too. I’m not saying, go do the 100 things I’m doing, but think about, what is it that you want to do? What are you interested in, and why does it really have to be on the back burner? It shouldn’t. It just makes you a stronger employee. You could see in the subtitle of my book, I talk about charting your unique career path. It makes you unique. It’s your differentiator.

Outside of the relatability part, I’ll give one example of someone on my team. With one of my organizations, SheBuildsWaves, we used to host panel sessions, and she never knew she was great at organizing events. She never explored it, but then I was like, no, come, you’re going to help me. She worked on my team, and she found out that she enjoyed it. She was like, I actually like to plan things and get everything together, see it all come beautifully. It’s something that she might not have explored if, one, her boss didn’t give her the platform, two. Now, I don’t know she’s doing what parties outside of work, but I hope that by that exposure, it allows her to explore that.

John: Yeah, absolutely. That’s so great, where it’s, yeah, there’s work to get done for Manzini Duffy, but there are also other things that the work shouldn’t consume 24 hours of your day. That’s cool that you have that mindset. Not everyone does, to say it as easily as possible. How much is it on the organization or leadership to create that space? Or how much maybe is it on the individual to jump in if the space is created or to maybe create a little space themselves?

Bolanle: Yeah, I’m fortunate to have explored it two ways. One, the first, we’ll call it, ten years of my career where I was an employee, and how did I show up with my other skill sets or my other passions? How did I show up at work? I literally worked at a company that’s more corporate, and in the Accounting Department, it was very quiet. You would see me there with these crocheted hats that I had. People were like, what is that on her desk? Did you really make an owl hat?

John: Right.

Bolanle: Yeah, because I used to make all these character hats. Other people would show interest in that. Or I would be with one of our partners, and I would talk about this stuff. It’s like, wait, what, we’re not talking about my project? We’re actually connecting?

John: Yeah.

Bolanle: It’s so important, one, as an employee, two, as a leader, to actually make space for this because it just connects people. It’s how you build relationships. We’re all doing really hard work, especially if you’re an A player. Yes, we know your work is tough, but how do you connect with folks that you’re spending so much time with, on a deeper level? I’m not saying you now have to become best friends, but sharing common interests, sharing common interests.

John: Yeah. Or even like, I don’t crochet, but the owl hats, cool.

Bolanle: It’s cool, right?

John: What’s that all about? What is that for? Because so many people, they’re like, well, it’s not the same. It’s like, well, it doesn’t matter. Actually, I found, from doing my comedy, that I was the only one that I knew doing that, and that’s the one that people remember. It’s almost like, the more unique, the stronger the connection actually is.

Bolanle: Yes, yes. I feel like, at least for me, if you’re an employee and you’re thinking about, oh, how do I show up; I think it actually helps you be remembered in the rooms that you’re not in. When I’m thinking about, when we’re having leadership conversations, it’s folks who have either shown other interest or mentioned something, they come up in conversation. I just posted a quote from my book that talks about, it’s not just about doing heads down work. Let yourself shine. I’m not saying that if you’re an introvert, show up as not yourself, but there are things about you that are special, and begin to start speaking about that. Speak about that to your teammates. If you’re not comfortable going to the boss yet, then share with your peer. Start small.

John: Yeah, the special isn’t your Excel wizardry or your mastery of whatever it is, the work, technical skills.

Bolanle: We knew that when we hired you.

John: Yeah, right? Your special sauce is the other stuff that no one else is doing or not everyone’s doing, and that’s, like you said, the differentiator. That’s so great. Yeah. Do you have any words of encouragement, well, I guess you just did that, but to people that are listening that maybe they have an “and”, and they feel like no one’s going to care?

Bolanle: Oh, there’s always somebody that cares. There’s always somebody that cares, whether it’s in your workplace or not, and the person who should actually care the most is you. Again, because you are the one in control of or in the driver’s seat of your career, of your life, and so you should care to make space for these things that are important to you. Just think about them as parallel lines. I think that was an article that was written about me was like Bolanle and her parallel lines. She is going, she’s not putting one thing down. I was like, yeah, literally, it’s because of that. I don’t want time to pass, and I haven’t at least given it a shot.

What I will share is, think about capacity. You might say, oh, look at her, but she has a nonprofit. The story I shared was I started with crocheting 20 hats in a year. That’s not a lot of time. When you think about it, it’s not a lot of time. So, dream big and then start small. Before you know it, the impact, you’ll enjoy yourself.

John: Yeah, such good encouragement. This has been so much fun. I do feel though, because I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, that it’s only fair that I turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Bola podcast. Thanks for having me on as a guest.

Bolanle: Of course.

John: I booked myself. I booked myself in. I’m all yours. Any questions you have for me?

Bolanle: Yeah. At my SheBuildsWaves events, we always ask people to sign up this way, and I want you to share you. You say, my name is John, and I build waves when I… Finish it.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Bolanle: How do you build waves?

John: My name is John, and I build waves when I encourage people to share their “ands” and share what lights them up. I do see the ripple effects of it too, which is cool. Now, with the implementation programs that I have, working with firms and companies and organizations, before, when I was speaking, I would speak and then I would go home. I don’t know what happens. Maybe a couple of people email. Now, when I’m working with places, I get to see the light switch come on, and I get to see it come alive, similar to SheBuildsLives where you get to watch it happen. It’s like, wow, that’s cool. I think there are waves. I don’t know if they’re tsunami waves, but they’re waves. They’re happening.

Bolanle: Multiple ways to create that tsunami, so we’re good. Perfect. I love it.

John: That’s good. I’ve never done the fill in the blanks. That was super fun. Thanks so much, Bola, for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”? This was really, really great.

Bolanle: So fun. Thank you so much for having me.

John: Yeah, absolutely. Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Bola outside of work and some of her NGO work or throwing her parties or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com Everything’s there, also the link to the book, Build Boldly, definitely check that out. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing to the podcast on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 461 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. All the versions go more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and now listening to it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the workplace cultures where they are because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Kenneth Omoruyi. He’s the managing partner of CKO CPAs and Advisors in Houston, Texas, and he was the chair of the Tax Expo Committee, which was a conference I spoke at just last month where we met. He kicked the whole conference off playing the Star-Spangled Banner on his saxophone, and let’s play a little clip right now. It’s so awesome. He was amazing, and I’m so excited that he’s with me here today. Kenneth, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Kenneth: Absolutely, John. Thank you so much. It’s such a privilege to be on the same podcast with you. You are like a celebrity in the accounting world, so being on this podcast is a very big honor. Thank you so much.

John: Oh, you’re too kind, man. You’re too kind. That was awesome, at the beginning of the conference, where we did the word cloud with everybody’s “ands”, and then I saw a saxophone. You had it right there. You were ready to go, and then you kicked off the conference. That had to be the most unique way to kick off the Tax Expo, in the history of all the tax expos.

Kenneth: It was just a very beautiful time to be able to have you onstage as well, and be able to connect with everyone who came to the Tax Expo. It was just a very beautiful time together.

John: Yeah, it was awesome. Just show people there’s more than just tax people here. We have other things too. We had a band within five minutes. All of a sudden there’s a lead singer, lead guitarist, bass guitarist. We had a fiddler, a pianist. I was like, oh, man, this is amazing. Yeah, I have my rapid-fire questions though, get to know Kenneth out of the gate. These are probably things I should ask when we’re hanging out in Houston, but I didn’t. Here we go. Here we go. How about a favorite color?

Kenneth: Navy blue.

John: Navy blue. Solid. I like that. Yeah. How about a least favorite color?

Kenneth: Black.

John: Black. Okay. All right. Yeah, that’s a good answer. How about on a pizza, favorite toppings? You can load it up.

Kenneth: I don’t have any.

John: Oh, really. You don’t like pizza?

Kenneth: I didn’t do a lot of that.

John: Oh, okay. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. All right. How about favorite actor or actress?

Kenneth: A favorite actor would be Denzel Washington.

John: Yeah. How about, oh, this is a tricky one, especially in Houston, more rain or snow?

Kenneth: None of the above.

John: You know what? I’m with you, man. I hate rain so much too. All right, here’s one, cats or dogs.

Kenneth: Dogs.

John: Dogs. Yeah, me too. Yeah. Puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw puzzles.

Kenneth: None of the above.

John: None of them. Actually, Sudoku is how I do my tax returns, I think.

Kenneth: Oh, wow.

John: Which is not a good idea. That’s not good for anybody. How about this one, Star Wars or Star Trek?

Kenneth: Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. Okay, there you go. How about your favorite season, summer, winter, spring or fall?

Kenneth: Fall.

John: Fall. Yeah, me too. I was worried you were going to say none of the above. I was like, wait a minute, that’s all four of them. How about your computer, a PC or a Mac?

Kenneth: PC.

John: PC. Yeah, me too. Do you have a favorite ice cream flavor?

Kenneth: Vanilla.

John: Oh, okay. All right. Straight up vanilla. There you go. That’s classic. How about a favorite day of the week?

Kenneth: Sunday.

John: Sunday. Nice. Okay. There you go. Corporate or individual tax returns.

Kenneth: Individual tax returns.

John: Individual. Okay, there you go. That’s just a silly one. All right, we’ve got four more. More of an early bird or a night owl.

Kenneth: Night owl.

John: Night owl. Okay. All right. I figured with the kids, they’d wake you up early.

Kenneth: Absolutely.

John: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you’re like, I’d rather be up late. How about a favorite number?

Kenneth: Ten.

John: Ten. Is there a reason?

Kenneth: Most of the people outside the US, soccer is the biggest sports outside the US.

John: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Kenneth: As a foreign-trained accountant who studied in Nigeria, we have this soccer player who always wears number 10. His name is Jay-Jay Okocha, and that was our favorite soccer player. I just got to like the number ten from him.

John: Yeah. He played forward for Nigeria, right?

Kenneth: Oh, you know him?

John: Yeah, absolutely, man. Dude, he was big.

Kenneth: That is crazy. I would never have imagined that you know him.

John: Yeah. No, no, I went to the World Cup in ‘94 when it was here in the US.

Kenneth: You saw it?

John: In Soldier Field, yes, saw Germany and Spain.

Kenneth: That is so cool, John.

John: No, absolutely. I was like, look at that. There you go. Yeah, ten in soccer is legendary. Absolutely. There you go. When it comes to books, do you like the audio version, an e-book or the real book?

Kenneth: I’m an audio guy because I listen to sound a lot. I’m just an audio person. I consume audio a lot.

John: That makes sense. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Kenneth: That’ll be my faith.

John: Oh, nice. There you go. Very cool. Yeah, so let’s talk about playing the saxophone and getting into that. How did you get started? Was it from when you were a little kid?

Kenneth: My story or my journey into the saxophone world is very interesting. I will quickly just wrap up like this. I graduated from a college in Nigeria, but while I was in high school in Nigeria, each time we were coming back from high school with a group of friends, there was this house right at the entrance of the street that we always heard a saxophone sound coming from, each time we walked past that house, in the middle of day. We would always just stand by to listen to the beautiful sound coming from this house.

One day I decided to stay there, way, way longer after the sound stopped. What I was waiting for was actually to see the person who was playing the saxophone. A few maybe minutes later, maybe half an hour later, he walked out, and I approached him. I told him how beautiful he played the saxophone. I love the sound, and I would like to play the saxophone. I was 15 then, and I told him I wanted to learn how to play the saxophone. The rest is history because he took me just like his son. We later found out that we both share the same birthday, August 9.

John: Oh, wow.

Kenneth: It was such an interesting connection between us. He later became my mentor who taught me the saxophone.

John: That’s crazy awesome, man. That is so cool. You’re like, I love that sound, I want to be able to do that, and then you just learned. Were you taking lessons? Or was it learn on your own or watching some YouTube? What was it?

Kenneth: Oh, I promise you there was no YouTube then. This was 1998.

John: Oh, okay, okay. All right.

Kenneth: I had to learn under him, one-on-one. This guy was a musician. If you heard about a musician in Nigeria called Fela, he is a very popular musician. At some point, he played for Fela as a saxophonist.

John: Oh, wow.

Kenneth: Yes. He relocated to the state where I was a student in high school. I think it was just destiny that made us cross paths.

John: Right.

Kenneth: I learned directly under him. He taught me one-on-one. I used to come to his house after school. He would give me some exercises, and I’d go back home and get to play. What I quickly want to add is that before we got into that arrangement where he taught me one-on-one, I had to pay for it, and I couldn’t afford it. I told him that whatever amount he was charging back then, I wasn’t able to afford it. He told me, “Do you attend church?” I said yes. Why don’t you talk to your pastor and have them pay for you. Then when you’re done learning, you can then play for the church. I approached my church, and the pastor was very, very generous enough, sponsoring my saxophone lessons. The church paid for my saxophone learning. I started playing saxophone, and I’ve always played my saxophone in the church.

John: That’s very cool, man. That’s awesome. Yeah, and just always learning and always practicing. Do you have any stories that come to mind of really cool performances that you’ve, I mean, besides the Tax Expo, but other ones that just come to mind that were really fun?

Kenneth: Yeah, trust me, a lot of times. I’ve been playing saxophone now for about 22 years, and I can’t even imagine how many stories that I can recall. One very, very striking one was a student, while I was in college, because I started playing in high school, when I went to college back in Nigeria, I had this student that walked up to me after an event. We had a very, very massive event in my college where I played the saxophone. This guy walked up to me in class, not even after the event, we met in class the next day, and he told me that, I see you every day in class. I had no idea that you were a saxophonist. Then I came to an event, and I saw you play. I used to be a very serious student, but I just feel like I want to give my life more meaning by becoming more inspiring or more inspirational, like what I saw you doing, and I want to learn the saxophone. He went on to learn the saxophone, and he became a saxophonist as well.

John: Oh, wow. That’s so cool, how you were able to pay it forward sort of a thing, and inspire someone else to want to play.

Kenneth: Exactly.

John: Wow. That’s cool, man. That’s really cool, just to be able to make a difference in someone’s life just by sharing your passion and your joy for playing.

Kenneth: Absolutely. Another quick one I will also share was a medical student who was just getting into medical school, walked up to me in school, and said, “Hey, I heard you taught somebody the saxophone. I heard him play, and I approached him and asked him how he learned. He told me, you taught him how to play the saxophone. Can you teach me how you taught him how to play the saxophone?” I said, yes, absolutely, if you’re ready to learn. Mind you, when I teach people the saxophone, I never take money from them because I felt like if I was invested, the church invested in me to learn the saxophone, I should freely give it to other people. I eventually taught him how to play the saxophone, and trust me, he’s been one of the best students of all the, I can’t even count at this moment how many people whom I’ve taught the saxophone. He is doing extremely well. He’s a saxophonist. He’s a medical doctor. He’s a saxophonist. He’s in Switzerland practicing. Anytime I hear him play, I feel very, very grateful that he was one of my students.

John: That’s so good, man. You’re such a better person. Because if people were like, can you tell me how to tell jokes; I’m like, no, I’m not going to teach you how to do that because you’re not going to be good. I’m going to get very annoyed because you’re going to tell the whole joke, and then you’re going to forget the last punch line, and then I’m going to get angry. That’s so cool, how you’ve just taught all these different people who, it’s their “and”, if you will. It’s their “and”. They’re doctors and other students. They’re not professional musicians. They’re just people that want to do this on the side as a passion. That’s really cool, man, how they sensed that out of you. That’s awesome. Do you feel like, whether it’s playing the saxophone or practicing or it’s teaching others, that, that gives you a skill that you bring to the tax accounting world or as a managing partner?

Kenneth: I just feel it’s the connection you get. Whether you’re an accountant or you’re a musician or whatever profession that you operate, you connect with people. It’s about the people, your ability to be able to connect with people. I can guarantee you there are some people who will connect more with you, just knowing that you’re a saxophonist, than just telling them that you’re a CPA. The fact that we are able to connect with people at different levels, if you see me probably in church or maybe at an event, playing, I can guarantee you have no idea that I have anything to do with accounting.

John: Yeah. Right.

Kenneth: Being able to connect with people, I think, that’s just like my biggest bill.

John: Yeah. Do you find that it’s easier to connect over these hobbies and passions versus connecting over strictly work?

Kenneth: I guarantee you, yes. At the snap of a finger, I can easily tell you that people connect with me more when I relate with them as a saxophonist than as a CPA.

John: Absolutely. I totally agree. It’s cool to hear that I’m not crazy, that even out in the real world, that’s what’s happening. Is this something that your coworkers and even clients know about, the music side of you?

Kenneth: Not a lot of them do, unless maybe they really want to know about me and then go to my company’s website, and then they see it there. Outside of work, a couple of people who see me in church, because I play in church from time to time, but some of my coworkers or some of my employees and some of my client, when we have lunch and when we have events, I bring the saxophone. I always have the saxophone with me. I have it in my car. I’m ready to pull it out any time.

John: You never know. Right?

Kenneth: Yes.

John: You never know. No, I love it, man. It’s so great, and I love how you said on your website, on the company website, how you have it there as well. Was there a part of you that was like, ah, maybe people are going to think I’m not very good at accounting if I have it on there?

Kenneth: I promise you, if anyone is going to think about me as not being a good accountant for playing saxophone, I don’t know if I want to engage really with. Just think about it, music is mathematics on its own. If you play music, chances are that, well, research, that you have very good cognitive ability with numbers. I think that it actually has helped me with my numbers in the instrument, and my field as an accountant as well. Yeah, I’ve never had any form of second thought or thinking differently if I introduced myself as a saxophonist and as an accountant, never.

John: No, good for you because so many times, from interviewing so many different people, it’s these lies that we tell ourselves in our own head. It’s like, I would bet almost everyone that sees that thinks it’s cool. They’re like, what? Tell me about this. You’re like, well, I happen to have it in my back pocket. What do you want to hear? Here you go. I love the style. You bring some jazz flavor to it as well. Is that more your style?

Kenneth: Oh, yeah. Interestingly, though, the fact that I’ve been playing for about 22 years, a lot of people, when they hear me, when I tell them I’m a saxophonist, their expectation is that I’m extremely good. I don’t consider myself as extremely good saxophonist. I just consider myself as a saxophone player. Why I say that is because I’ve heard some really, really crazy saxophonists nowadays.

John: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There’s always someone better, even to them. They’re like, yeah, but this person. There’s always one that’s better than you.

Kenneth: Exactly, especially as somebody who is now, well, in the US, I came from Nigeria, and all of the world greats, as far as saxophone is concerned, for the most part, they live in the US. I have been at events with Kirk Whalum, Gerald Albright, Kenny G. These are guys whose names are forever ingrained in the Hall of Fame of the saxophone world, so I can never tell them that I am a very good saxophonist.

John: But you play the saxophone the same as they play the saxophone. You both play the saxophone. I think that that’s the thing is when it comes to your “and,” if I were to ask Kenny G, how he does his tax returns, I bet they’re not as good as yours.

Kenneth: Thank you. You’re so kind. Do you know, by the way, that Kenny G is an accountant? He’s actually an accountant. Do you know that?

John: Oh, I didn’t know that he had an accounting background. Well, he’s still not good at taxes. He’s probably like me where I don’t know how taxes work either. If you were to change the phrase to just, I enjoy playing the saxophone, well, then you don’t have to be the world’s greatest. I’ve heard you play, and you’re really fantastic, man. Don’t diminish yourself. We can always tell ourselves something that’s not healthy. If you just say, I enjoy playing the saxophone, then no one’s going to say, are you any good, because it doesn’t matter. Kenneth is doing it because Kenneth enjoys it, and that’s it.

Kenneth: Thank you so much. I’m really grateful, to really speak to that, I’m grateful that I still play the saxophone because when I think about my journey or my trajectory, coming to the US and all what I’ve had to go through and trying to get very assimilated into the system and then still being a professional, you know the accounting profession is very demanding, especially if you’re in the tax world. I’m a tax accountant. The fact that I still play the saxophone at all, I’m really, really grateful for that, that I still have time.

John: Yeah, man. No, it’s awesome because it’s such a testament to how it’s really is a passion, and you’re intentional about making time to do that. The tax returns are going to get done. I don’t need to make time to do them. They’re going to happen.

Kenneth: Yes.

John: I need to make time for playing the saxophone. It brings me joy. I would imagine, if I told you, you can’t play the saxophone again, you’re going to fight me.

Kenneth: Right.

John: If I told you, you could never do another tax return again, you’re like, oh, we’ll figure something out. I’m going to be all right.

Kenneth: We can automate some software to do the tax return. We can’t automate a saxophonist to play the saxophone.

John: That’s an excellent point right there. Yeah, you can never automate your “and”. That’s for sure, man. I love it. How much do you think it’s on, I mean, as a managing partner, if you find out that the people at the firm have an “and”, how much is it on the managing partner and the leadership to encourage people to have these outside-of-work hobbies? Or how much is it on the individual to just do it?

Kenneth: For me, I talk to my people a lot, and we connect better, especially when we have lunch. We all go out. My firm is a firm of plus or minus nine people. We’re not very big, and so we connect. Outside, one of us is a singer, sings, and then the other one, one of partners of the firm, he runs. He’s into running. I just feel that it’s a way to be able to express ourselves differently from the accounting world. There’s life outside of accounting. Accounting is not the beginning and the ending. Outside of accounting, there’s life. Because the truth is, the more you know what people do outside of accounting, the more you know them better as professionals, then you can connect with them differently, not just as an accountant.

John: Yeah, and as people, you hired the whole person, not just the accounting part of them, so, knowing these other parts. I love that there’s life outside of work. To act like there isn’t or to deny that, no, no, no, no, it’s all work; it’s like, shut up. You’re lying. If it is, then you’ve got some problems. We need to talk because that’s not healthy. That’s not healthy at all. I love it, man. What a great example for everybody listening of just, how to care about your people. There is life outside and find out what that is. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that has an “and”, and they feel like no one’s going to care because it has nothing to do with my job?

Kenneth: I will just say, to make sure that you live your life. They are gifts, and they are talents that I don’t personally believe that there is one person who doesn’t have an “and”. We all have an “and”. Some of us are just maybe very, very cautious or careful to not really express your “and”, but guess what, we only have one life to live. The earlier you express yourself and be yourself, be able to be as authentic as possible anywhere you find yourself, I think the better you find peace and live the life you should live.

John: Yeah. No, I love it, man. That’s so great, Kenneth. Thank you, man. I feel like it’s only fair though, before we do wrap this up, that I turn the tables, since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning. We make this the first episode of the Kenneth Omoruyi podcast. Thanks for having me on as a guest. I appreciate it. Whatever questions you want to ask, I’m all yours.

Kenneth: Absolutely. I remember the first time I met you at the Houston event. My mind was really, really elevated because I’ve never had an accounting event that fun in my life.

John: Oh. Well, thanks, man. Yeah.

Kenneth: I’ll ask you these questions. One of the questions is, when you transitioned out of the accounting world, as it were, I mean, you still connect, you’re still going to be an accountant, when you transitioned out, what was your biggest challenge during that transitional period?

John: Yeah. That’s a great question. I had a unique set of circumstances where it allowed me to turn my “and” and to give it a go as a profession. I’m very cautious to encourage anyone to do that because it is scary hard. It is scary. Let’s be honest, most people aren’t that good at their “and” to make it a profession. That’s why keep it on the side. It’s totally cool on the side. I just happen to have a set of circumstances where I had a new manager come in who wasn’t great, and I was going to leave anyway. I was like, well, if I’m leaving, I might as well give it a go and see what happens.

Kenneth: Wow.

John: The hardest part, I think, is, when your “and” becomes your profession, is you have to have another “and”. You still have to have something else, outside of that. Also, too, when you run your own business, which is basically what I do, it’s hard to turn off your brain. You have to turn it off at some point. You have to be like, I’m done for the day, or I’m done for the weekend, and that’s it. You certainly have to turn it off. When you’re especially new, I was the product, I’m also the CEO, I’m also the secretary, I’m also the janitor, I’m all of the things, but especially when you’re also the product, that’s hard because when people say no, they’re saying no to you as a person. It’s a little bit harsh. It was really setting boundaries, I guess, was the hardest part and then just having the courage to just run as fast as you can.

Kenneth: Thank you so much for sharing that, John. I think you’ve shown a lot of courage by venturing out into your “and”. You turned your “and” to become a profession that is now really, really encouraging people who are thinking of branching out and focusing on their “and” as well. Thank you for sharing that. I think one last question I’ll probably have a for you is that, when you come across other CPAs, other accountants, I’m sure you run into them from time to time, what’s the reaction when you tell them you used to be a CPA before and then now this is, how do you —

John: The reaction is, are you crazy? What are you doing out? Because I’m not in outer space, there’s no up or down or steady paycheck or benefits, especially someone like me, the profession, risk-averse. I’m taking a massive risk. I think the coolest is just when I tell them what I do and a little bit of the story behind it, I think it opens them up to share their “and”, and also to see that what they thought they had to be or what the people around them are, is not true. There’s fascinating people all around us. Like at the beginning of the Tax Expo when we did that word cloud where people could anonymously put in their “ands”, and it created that cool word cloud on the screen, and then all of a sudden, we had a band. No one knew that, walking into the beginning of a conference. I think it just shows them that they’re not alone in having an “and”, they’re actually in the majority, and to find out what those are because they’re cool.

Kenneth: I want to tell you, John, thank you so much, because your story is so inspiring, even to the accounting world. So many CPAs, so many accountants that, I tell you, will be encouraged by just hearing your story. We need to put your story more out there so that more people can live the best lives that they are meant to live.

John: Well, that’s why I’m on the Kenneth Omoruyi podcast. Thanks, man. I appreciate you having me. No, but this has been so much fun, Kenneth. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? You’re awesome.

Kenneth: Absolutely. Thank you, John.

John: Yeah, and everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Kenneth playing or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 459 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. Thank you so much to everyone who’s writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the work cultures where they are because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Jessica E. McClain. She’s the CFO of the Girl Scouts Council of the Nation’s Capital, obviously, in Washington DC, and a recipient of the AICPA Outstanding Young CPA Award, and now she’s with me here today. Jessica, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Jessica: Thank you so much for having me, John. Excited, excited to be here.

John: Oh, ditto. This is going to be so much fun, so much fun. I have some rapid-fire questions, get to know Jessica out of the gate here. I’ll start you out with maybe an easy one. Favorite color.

Jessica: Blue. That’s the color of my Tesla, blue.

John: There you go. Yeah, I’m a huge blue fan. How about least favorite color?

Jessica: Oh, gosh, I hate brown, just looks dirty.

John: Right? I feel like brown’s only there to make the color look better. How about heels or flats?

Jessica: Pre-children, I wore heels all the time. Between post-children and working from home, it’s become flex.

John: Right. I hear you. That totally makes sense. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Jessica: Favorite actress is Jennifer Lewis.

John: Oh, yeah, good answer. Very good. How about chocolate or vanilla?

Jessica: Oh, gosh. Can I mix it and make cookies and cream a little bit?

John: Okay. Okay. There you go. I like that answer. There you go. You even took it to the ice cream level. I love it. I love it. That’s so perfect, so perfect. How about a favorite day of the week?

Jessica: Saturday because least you know the day behind you, the workweek was over, and you still have another day ahead of you for the weekend.

John: There you go. There you go. It’s a free one. Catch your breath. I like it. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw?

Jessica: Sudoku, absolutely.

John: Sudoku. Nice. Okay, that’s the accountant in you going strong.

Jessica: Yes.

John: That’s awesome. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Jessica: Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. Yes, me too. Just growing up, that’s all I did. Your computer is more of a PC or a Mac.

Jessica: PC all the way.

John: Yeah, exactly. I don’t even know how Macs work. I’m not going to lie.

Jessica: Same here.

John: On your mouse, do you right click or left click?

Jessica: I’m a left clicker.

John: Left click, making decisions. Just boom, let’s do this. All right. All right. How about a favorite Disney character?

Jessica: Wow. Oh, man, you’re taking it back. I have to say I love Minnie Mouse. It’s great because my daughter wants to be Minnie Mouse for Halloween this year, so that’s great.

John: Yeah, just classic. That’s the classic. I love it. How about more talk or text?

Jessica: More text.

John: Text.

Jessica: I’m a texter. Yes, I am. With kids in the background and noise, I can’t always say I’m available to talk.

John: That’s an interesting point. Oh, this is a fun one, balance sheet or income statement.

Jessica: I’ve got to say balance sheet. I’ve got to know where we are or how we ended.

John: Oh, okay. All right. I like balance sheet too, because then you know you’re right or not because it balances. It’s like, something’s off. That’s for sure. Just put in goodwill, whatever, we’re done, which is why I’m not an accountant anymore. There we go. All right, we’ve got four more, four more. How about your first concert?

Jessica: A boy band called Immature, back in the early ‘90s.

John: Oh, wow. Okay. All right.

Jessica: Wow.

John: I love it. That’s all good. Now I’m going to have to look them up. I hadn’t heard of them. That’s going to be awesome. How about a favorite number?

Jessica: Number seven, lucky number seven. Born in July, so, number seven.

John: There you go. That’s the reason. All right, how about books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Jessica: I need a real book. I want to feel the pages, feel the cover. That’s me. I can’t do the electronic stuff.

John: Nice. Yeah, yeah. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Jessica: The favorite thing I have, I still have the dog collar of my childhood pet.

John: Oh.

Jessica: Yes. Her name was bear. We got her when I was four. We put her down when I was 20.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Jessica: Yes, she lived to be 16. She was completely a part of my family, had been there my entire, from a child to adult.

John: Yeah, forever.

Jessica: That was almost 20 years ago, and she is still missed.

John: Oh, wow, that is awesome. So cool. So cool. Yeah, but let’s talk bodybuilding. How do you get started doing that? That is so cool. How did you get started?

Jessica: I have to thank my mother for this one.

John: Okay.

Jessica: She was a few years from turning 50, and she set this goal on her bucket list of, I want to compete in a bodybuilding competition. I’m like, what in the world? Okay, mom. She went out. She hired a personal trainer, she changed her diet, everything. It took a few years to really get into shape for it. Until I competed, I had no clue how much work it was. She did, in 2010, when she turned 50, she did her first competition.

John: That’s awesome.

Jessica: For two years, she tried to convince me to do it, and I would not budge. All I could think about was all the things I would be giving up, my sweets, my junk food, my free time, my wine. For two years, I was actually, no, Ma, nope, nope. This is you. Have fun. Great job. I’ll come to the shows and support you, but I’m not doing it. Then in 2012, she finally somehow convinced me to join the competitive world of bodybuilding. I did my first show about a year and a half later, and was hooked after that.

John: That is amazing. Was it there in DC?

Jessica: Yeah, in the DC area. Yes, it was here. Yes, it was.

John: That’s incredible. I guess, when you sign up, it’s, I mean, you’ve done the training, so it’s it’s just go time. Really the hard work is before you even sign up, I would imagine.

Jessica: Oh, my goodness. Yes, yes, yes. A lot of hard work.

John: Right. I’m exhausted just thinking about, I mean, just the diet alone is like, no. Then there’s going to the gym and the training and the weights and all of the stuff that I don’t even know anything about. I’m literally like, this is awesome. No, it’s very impressive, but when you’re out there, like that first competition, what was going through your mind? Is it just that I’ve done the work and let’s do this?

Jessica: That’s part of it. You get to a point where you say, I did it. I had to become a gym rat. I was going to the gym, five or six days a week, eating the same food every day for two weeks.

John: Oh, wow.

Jessica: The same meals every day. When you get to the show, it’s all of the hard work I’ve put in for months, because it takes some months to compete. You don’t go out, work out for a month and then say, let’s go compete. No, no, no. It can take some time to do that, and so when you get there, it’s to know that I made it, and I did it, no matter what the results are. That’s a big enough accomplishment in itself is just being able to enter yourself into a competition with all the training and hard work you put in.

John: Yeah. No, it’s the same as doing stand-up comedy, which was my “and”. People are like, well, what were you thinking when you were onstage? I was thinking that they’re going to say my name, so I have to go up. I can’t not go up. The scary part was when I put my name on the list.

Jessica: There you go.

John: After that, we’re on the slide. We’ve got to go down. Here we go. No matter what, you had the guts to do it. You were successful, and it was awesome. I love it. It’s so cool and such a neat story. Also, how much it inspired your husband and people around you as well is also kind of cool, if you want to share a little bit of that.

Jessica: Sure, sure. When my husband met me, I was in the middle of competing, and it forced him, basically, to change his health habits, working out, eating better. He lost a lot of weight. It’s something that we’re talking about doing together in a couple of years, once I get past having my children, get back into the gym, full time. We’re definitely talking about competing and doing a show together in the future. It’s great because some of the biggest benefits are your health, and it’s one of the big reasons my mother wanted to do it. She was just afraid of getting older. She said, “I have to live a long life to see my grandchildren.” You’re so much better for it, with the dieting and the exercise that comes along with the training.

John: No, that’s awesome. If I were you, I would have told my mom, I’ll wait ‘till I’m 50. I’ll see you later.

Jessica: I might have told her that in the beginning.

John: Right. Just in case she’s listening and wants to hunt me down, I’m just joking. I’m just joking. She’s going to get me into this now. Was there like a cooler moment or experience or one of the competitions that you’ve done that were just the most memorable?

Jessica: Yes, yes, yes. I had the opportunity to compete in a show with Ernestine Shepherd. She was declared by the Guinness Book of World Records to be the oldest competitive female bodybuilder in 2010.

John: Oh, wow.

Jessica: It was so amazing to meet her, to see someone at the time who was already in her 70s, competing. I’m like, wow, if she could do it, there’s no reason why I can’t do it. Even now in her mid-80s, she still continues to teach exercise classes in Baltimore where she lives.

John: That’s so cool. Yeah, what a story. That’s impressive. I feel super lazy right now.

Jessica: I know.

John: It’s all good. Does anything translate from bodybuilding, to, is there a skill that you feel like you bring to the office at all?

Jessica: What I gained the most from competing was patience. It takes a lot of patience to work out five or six days a week, to eat the same food every day, to do all of that and wait to see the progress, physically. Because that’s what you’re looking for is, my abs are tighter, my arms look stronger. I had to be really patient with myself because I’ve worked very hard in everything that I do, and I always expect to see results. At times, you could hit a plateau, and you aren’t seeing those results. It’s like, okay, Jessica, no need to change up my workout routine, don’t need to change my diet. That was hard times for me to go in, day in and day out, and look in the mirror a couple of weeks on in and not see a change. It definitely taught me patience. I would say, the second thing after that, I think my children have taught me patience as well. I think that was preempting me.

John: Preparing you for motherhood.

Jessica: Yes, it was. It was.

John: Also, just probably, just don’t be so hard on yourself.

Jessica: Yes.

John: It’s hard to remember rather how far you’ve come, as opposed to, well, I need this last 10%. It’s like, yeah, but 90% the way there, let’s not forget that part. You still strive for that extra 10, but don’t bring the hammer on yourself so hard. It’s impressive. I remember when I went to college, and you’re living around the football players and athletes. I didn’t know that triceps were literally three muscles. It makes sense because it’s the name, but I never saw it. Then you’re waiting for the shower next to a defensive end, and you’re like, holy crap, there are three individual muscles right there. That’s amazing. It was hilarious. That was Melvin Dansby, great guy.

Jessica: I learned a lot about body physiology, a lot of that, more than I ever thought.

John: Yeah, yeah. It’s impressive. Yeah, you want to see all that, and you want to see all the gains. Every day, it’s hard to see that sometimes. I imagine, probably, just if you could just take a snapshot and remember where you came from.

Jessica: Absolutely.

John: That’s impressive. I love that. Patience, for sure. Is this something that you talked about at work at all? Or did it come up?

Jessica: I actually did talk about it at work because I needed all the support I could get.

John: Right. Right. We’re not going out for pizza.

Jessica: Bodybuilding, the training and everything is 80% mental and 20% physical, so I needed all the support. My coworkers were a part of my accountability team. They would make sure I was drinking that gallon of water I needed to drink every day. They would make sure I wasn’t sneaking and trying to eat food I shouldn’t be eating. Or when I went out to lunch and had to order the healthy food or eat salmon and broccoli heated up in the microwave. They knew and understood why I was doing it. I definitely needed them, and I really appreciate all the help that they gave me during that time.

John: That’s hilarious, the salmon and broccoli in the microwave. It’s like those are two of the worst.

Jessica: They understood Jessica’s competing soon.

John: Yeah, go to a different floor and go microwave up there. Don’t use our kitchen. No, but that’s so great. Did it ever cross your mind, like, I don’t know, are they going to judge me, or are they going to whatever? Or were you like, no, this is me, take it or leave it?

Jessica: It was actually just me. I just opened up one day. I think people started to notice things differently. They’re like, well, why are you eating this? Or why haven’t you gone out for happy hour with us? When I told them, they were like, wow, that is so cool. That is awesome. I want to know how it’s going. It just came out when they just started to notice some of the changes in my habits. It was great. It was so great.

John: Well, it’s so cool to hear that there are follow-up questions, and they want to know more. They want to be a part of the journey. I feel like so many times in our own heads, we create these stories of, I don’t know, it has nothing to do with my job. It doesn’t matter for accounting. It really creates those connections and makes people care about each other.

Jessica: Yes, absolutely.

John: Which it is so cool to hear that you got to experience that. That’s so awesome. Did you ever get any of your coworkers into the exercising more or anything? Or were they more like, yeah, live vicariously through Jessica, we’re good?

Jessica: I would say a bit of both. I did meet others that I had no clue who were into physical fitness just like me and so, in sharing, I had better, I would say deeper connections with some of my coworkers and colleagues, and built stronger bonds with them because I had no clue they were into rowing or marathons or triathlons. Wow, there are other athletes out here and understood what it meant when, again, I couldn’t do the happy hours, or I couldn’t drink the soda that I love to drink so much. They understood. It definitely strengthened bond and had better relationships with my coworkers at the time.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so cool to hear that it’s like make-believe in my little bubble world. It’s like, no, no, for real, this stuff works, and it’s really not even hard. It’s literally, somebody asked you, why are you eating this weird food? You’re like, because I’m a bodybuilder and I’ve got this competition coming up. All of sudden, magic happens.

Jessica: Yes.

John: There are all these interesting people around you all of a sudden. That’s so cool, so cool. How much do you feel like it’s on an organization to maybe create that space and encourage people to share their “ands”, versus maybe just as an individual amongst their little circle?

Jessica: I will say, before this, as an African American woman in a white male-dominated profession, I didn’t feel as though I could bring that part of me to work. I kept work at work and home at home, but as I mentioned before, by opening up and sharing, I did build those stronger bonds with my colleagues. I would encourage anyone that has that mindset that I used to have, that they should open up. I would also say that COVID and working from home has definitely allowed people to see more of each other, beyond just them as another coworker. We’ve met people’s partners, their kids, their pets, their extended families. We’ve learned people’s favorite happy hour beverages, their favorite dish and hobbies. We’ve definitely become more of a caring society when it came to that. That’s one of the, I will say, the silver linings of COVID, but just having that open, inclusive environment is great for everyone.

John: Yeah, we’ve been in each other’s homes.

Jessica: Yes.

John: You see the picture or the painting on the wall or the something. As we move towards whatever the future of work is for whatever firm or company people are at, the toothpaste is out of the tube. Keep asking about that, about their cat that kept walking across the camera or whatever. Just, what’s up with that? How’s he doing, or how’s she doing, all that stuff. I love that. It really does humanize work. That’s where connections happen, is over the human side of things, not the technical skills side so much. It’s cool to hear that you got to experience that. That’s awesome. Those words of encouragement were also great for people, of just, hey, if you feel like you don’t have anything in common with people, share more dimensions to you because then that increases the odds that you have something in common.

Jessica: Absolutely. Exactly.

John: It’s so cool to hear how that worked for you. If you feel like an outsider, you’re probably not, at the end of the day, because we have so much more in common than we don’t.

Jessica: Yeah, it brings that sense of belonging which is, a lot of us minorities want to feel.

John: Yeah.

Jessica: Definitely, to this day, so glad that I shared that. Sometimes when I bump into people that I’ve known from years ago, doing that, they’d ask me, are you still competing? I say, when I’m done having kids, I definitely plan to get back.

John: That’s so great that people bring that up.

Jessica: Yes.

John: It’s not, oh, are you still a controller, or are you still doing accounting? Nobody asks that question because that’s who you really are, is the bodybuilder, and that’s so much more of who you are. Because if I told you, you could never do bodybuilding again, you’d be like, that sucks. If I were like, you could never do accounting again; you’d be like, well, I’m sure I’ll figure it out. It’ll be all right.

Jessica: Exactly.

John: That gives me more time to do bodybuilding. Awesome.

Jessica: I bought this new, so I need to start really using it now.

John: Right. Right. No, but that’s so cool to hear. So cool to hear. I feel like it’s just such an encouraging story and just how it’s manifested itself to bring you closer to coworkers and to friends and everything, so keep it up. Congratulations on everything. It’s super cool.

Jessica: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

John: Super cool. I feel like it’s only fair that, since I started out the episode, rudely peppering you with questions, that I get to turn the tables, and we’ll have the first episode of the Jessica E. McClain podcast. Thanks for having me as a guest. Whatever questions you want to ask, I’m all yours.

Jessica: All right, I’ve got a couple for you. What is the favorite place you’ve traveled to?

John: Favorite place I’ve traveled. My wife and I went to the Maldives. They’re like sandbars in the middle of the Indian Ocean. I’m pretty sure that, I don’t know, if the wind blew hard, they would just all go underwater, but the Maldives was pretty awesome. Then we stopped in Abu Dhabi and Dubai on the way there. That was pretty cool.

Jessica: You are speaking my language.

John: Right.

Jessica: My husband and I are going to the Maldives next year.

John: Oh, nice.

Jessica: We’ve been in Abu Dhabi, Dubai, back in 2015, so, fellow traveler. I love it.

John: Yeah. No, totally. Just different cultures, different aspects, it’s neat to see, but it also makes you appreciate what you have at home, at the same time. Very cool. That was definitely a pretty awesome trip.

Jessica: All right, I’ve got two more left. Your favorite sport.

John: Favorite sport, easily, well, college football to watch, for sure, and go-to and all of the things. Although, playing, I was more of a soccer player because I’m not a large individual, or fast. I’m a backup punter, basically, is what I am, on the football team, but in soccer, I’m pretty good. I guess those two sports probably.

Jessica: Okay. Okay. The last question I have to ask, again, being the CFO for the Girl Scouts Council of the Nation’s Capital, your favorite Girl Scout cookie.

John: Oh, Thin Mints all day.

Jessica: You know what, John?

John: All day.

Jessica: I knew you were my buddy.

John: Right. Right.

Jessica: I’ve got a box in my refrigerator right now that I shouldn’t eat, but Lord knows I want to eat.

John: Well, in case you need anyone to eat them for you, I’m here for you as part of your support team, Jessica. I will take one for the team and eat all of your Thin Mints. You put them in the freezer? Oh, so good, so good.

Jessica: I just had them in the freezer. I put them in the refrigerator, and I’m trying to tell myself not to eat them.

John: People that put them in their pantry, it’s like, you’re doing it wrong. Don’t you know?

Jessica: Do you know the flavor that comes from it when it has that chill to it?

John: The cold, oh, yeah. Oh, totally, totally. Oh, man, now I’m starving. I’m going to go get some right now. This has been so much fun, Jessica. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”?

Jessica: Thank you for having me. Thank you, thank you, thank you, John.

John: Everyone listening, if you want to see some pictures of Jessica from her competitions or connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.