Author: johng

Welcome to Episode 381 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read the book to you, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. It’s out now.

The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading the book and writing such great reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Emma Loggins. She’s the director of Strategy and founder of Excite Creative Studios in Atlanta, and the founder and editor-in-chief of Women’s Business Daily. Now she’s with me here today. Emma, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Emma: Hi. Thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.

John: This is going to be so much fun. I’m exhausted just reading all of the things that you do, and I have a podcast, so, good for you.

Emma: Thank you.

John: That’s very impressive and really, really cool stuff that we’ll jump into. First, I have my rapid-fire questions, get to know Emma right out of the gate here. So, seat belts on, keep your hands inside the car at all times, here we go. How about a favorite color?

Emma: Emerald green.

John: Emerald green. Okay, all right. How about a least favorite color?

Emma: Yellow.

John: Yellow. Interesting. All right. How about a favorite Disney character?

Emma: Oh, gosh, that’s so hard. I’m going to go with my favorite Disney animated movie, Oliver from Oliver and Company.

John: Okay, all right. Nice. I haven’t heard that one before. That’s very good, very good. All right, how about a favorite actor or actress?

Emma: Favorite actor would be Viggo Mortensen. Favorite actress, oh, my goodness, that one’s really hard. We’ll go with Sandra Bullock.

John: Oh, classic. There you go. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Would you say more of an early bird or a night owl?

Emma: Early bird.

John: Oh, this is a tricky one, talk or text.

Emma: Text.

John: Text. The podcast is going to be really hard. We’ll get through it though. We’ll get through it. How about for puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

Emma: Crossword.

John: Crossword, yeah. All right. Here we go, Star Wars or Star Trek.

Emma: Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. Yeah, me too. Me too, easily. Your computer, more of a PC or a Mac.

Emma: Mac.

John: Mac. Oh, yeah, the creative side of you. There you go. I’m not even allowed in the Mac stores, I don’t think. They’re like, you wait outside. How about a favorite ice cream flavor? I’m a huge ice cream junkie.

Emma: My favorite all-time was one called Heath Bar Crunch by Ben and Jerry’s. They don’t make it anymore.

John: Oh, no.

Emma: I still talk about it daily. So good.

John: That sounds amazing.

Emma: It was.

John: Yeah, and we need to get them on that. Oh, favorite day of the week.

Emma: Friday.

John: Friday. Okay. All right. How about chocolate or vanilla?

Emma: Chocolate.

John: Chocolate. There you go. How about a favorite number?

Emma: 13.

John: 13. Is there a reason?

Emma: I’ve just always really liked it. It might be part of just the genre geek in me, like Friday the 13th or just the mystical nature that surrounds the number 13. I’ve just always been very drawn to it.

John: No, I love it. That’s awesome. How about books, audio version, Kindle or the real book?

Emma: As of lately, probably audio book.

John: Okay. All right. Yeah, because people kept asking me and I was like, wow, I didn’t know people did that so much or wanted to hear my voice. I was like, all right. It’s out now, everybody. There you go. How about a TV show you binge watch?

Emma: Oh, my gosh, I binge watched so many.

John: Right. You can do more than one if you want. You don’t have to limit it.

Emma: I’m re-binging Friends now because my husband has never seen it from beginning to end, but my favorite series I’ve ever binge watched, I’ll do two. I’ll say Lost and then Community.

John: Oh, okay. Very different but good shows.

Emma: Very different shows.

John: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That’s awesome. Two more. Rain or snow.

Emma: Rain.

John: Rain. Okay. Last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Emma: Oh, my goodness, my favorite thing that I own. You know what, for keeping it short and quick, I have a baby Yoda statue. We’ll go with baby Yoda.

John: That’s awesome. I saw it in the background as we chat on the video for this. Yeah, I was like, that’s clearly in the top five.

Emma: Yeah.

John: That’s very cool. Very cool. So, let’s chat blogging, especially for FanBolt. How did you get started with blogging? When I was in school, I had enough writing assignments that I didn’t want to write more. You were like, you know what, I’m taking this next level. How did that all get started?

Emma: I always was a fan of writing. I would write stories constantly when I was a kid. When I got a computer and started spending time online and exploring what it meant to have a website, I had a front page For Dummies book that I remember I had that I looked through, and I had a GeoCities website. I was in seventh grade or something. It was very early days of everyone having access essentially to the internet. It was still dial-up, but it was widely available.

I just started playing around with making sites and then writing about things that I loved on those sites. That’s really how FanBolt came to be. I started that site in 2002, after I’d made a series of TV show sites where I had written about my theories or things that had happened in various episodes or what my thoughts were on them. Then those shows would get canceled or they’d come to an end. I built up this following and put so much time and effort into the site, and now the show was done. It was like, well, this sucks.

John: Right. Right.

Emma: Yeah, so I was like, you know what, let’s just start a general kind of geek movie, TV show site where I can talk about everything. When one show ends, there are still other things to talk about that would be relevant to people. Yeah, that’s how it all came to be. I started the site in March of 2002.

John: Wow, that’s incredible, 19 years. That’s impressive.

Emma: I know. It’s an adult. That’s how I look at it. I’m like, an adult.

John: Right. Yeah. I was like, graduate high school already. That’s amazing. I’m catching the theme between the Ben and Jerry’s ice cream and the TV shows that you had websites for you. I feel like this is the last episode of the What’s Your “And”? podcast, everybody. This is the end of the road for — no, I’m just kidding.

That’s such a great idea of why not make it a bigger community and a bigger thing. Even myself, I think that something’s a big idea, and it’s like, no, there’s something bigger out there. Good for you for pushing through that a long time ago. You were way ahead. That’s really cool. Have there been some rewarding benefits from this or cool stories that have happened because of the community that you’ve built over time?

Emma: Yeah, absolutely, so many cool stories. When I started it in 2002, the message board community was really the beating heart of the site. I would blog about a number of different things, but there was a really robust community at the core of it. At its peak, I think we were just over about 200,000 members on the message board.

John: Oh, wow.

Emma: It was insane. There were so many cool stories over the years. I had a group of maybe about, we’ll say 13 because it’s my favorite number, of core members from the very beginning. It was definitely between 10 and 20 of them, and they were located all over the world. The ones that were located here in the US, if I went to New York, I would see a couple of them. We’d hang out and go to dinner. It was so much fun. I had two members that actually met on the site and got married.

John: Oh, wow.

Emma: Yeah. There’s a ton of cool community stories that were there. For me, I think the coolest thing still that happened, I was living, always have lived in Atlanta, Georgia and was running the site from Atlanta, Georgia, really before Atlanta became a big player in the film industry. Film and television wasn’t really a big thing here at that time. I was blogging about a show called The OC, and I got this email randomly one day from Warner Brothers saying, “We saw your site. We’d love for you to come and blog for our official site for the show.”

John: Nice.

Emma: I was, what?

John: Right?

Emma: It was crazy to me because that was Hollywood reaching out to me, and it’s just not something I ever had planned for or a goal that I had. It just fell into my lap, and it was just the coolest opportunity. So, I blogged with them on the official OC fan club site for three years until that series ended, and really used that opportunity to network my butt off anyone that I could talk to, connect with.

I started getting opportunities to do interviews and set visits. All of it just growing really at the same time that social media was just starting to become a thing. It was a very interesting time to be in that world and get to travel and meet people that I’d looked up to and I’d idolized, get to interview them and share that on social media and then share that on the site. It was just so many, so many really cool experiences.

John: Yeah, because then you get to see the behind-the-scenes of what it’s really like on set and what actually happens when you’re there and what the people are actually like, not the characters that they’re playing on the show or whatever.

Emma: Exactly.

John: Yeah. Wow, that’s awesome. That’s really, really cool because you just started it as a fan of these shows. Now you’re on set and then they reach out to you. Good for you. That’s really awesome.

Emma: Thank you.

John: Yeah, if you didn’t throw yourself out there, then that never would have happened.

Emma: Exactly.

John: That’s really awesome. Do you feel like any of those blogging skills translated to your career, if you will, at all?

Emma: Absolutely. I had already done a couple of like freelance sites for just random businesses in the community by the time I had started FanBolt. I was going to school to get my — I got both my Bachelor’s and my Master’s degree in Computer Arts and Media, so it was a strong focus on web design and kind of bigger picture of multimedia in general, with audio and video thrown into it. I would always turn FanBolt in for my school projects just so I could — you know, two birds, one stone, it was —

John: Might as well.

Emma: Yeah, why not?

John: Right? Get new ideas from the professors. It’s like, oh, yeah, I never even thought about it. Okay.

Emma: Exactly. It was so much fun, and being able to try things out on FanBolt, looking back at the design evolution of the site and really seeing my design skills grow. So much of what I do now with Excite is building communities for people. Organizations will come to me or sites that want to have a community its core. FanBolt’s the number one portfolio piece that I have for that. Same thing with Women’s Business Daily. They’re both sites that thrive off of the community that’s built on them, and they’re both set up in a way with search engine optimization to rank highly for keywords that are relevant to that audience to bring people in organically. All of that is something that I’ve had the opportunity to learn, explore, test all of that with FanBolt.

John: That’s such a great point because you have this prototype, if you will, but it’s actually live and going. You can be a little more forgiving to yourself on that, but then when you have a client that’s actually paying you, then it’s like, well, yeah, I’ve got all these skills because I’ve been exercising that muscle, if you will, over here on FanBolt. That’s cool.

Emma: Yeah.

John: Is FanBolt something that comes up with clients or coworkers, throughout your career?

Emma: Absolutely. Most of the clients that I have, they’re clients, but they’re also friends. We spend a lot of time working and collaborating together. I love it being that type of relationship. It’s always something where, when you’re able to bond over something outside of just work, and you’re able to see each other as humans and not just service provider client, I think it really enriches the overall relationship and the kind of working culture between you and someone. I always point out that I brand myself as the geek girl. I’m very passionate about geek culture. If you have any questions about Marvel or Star Wars, I’m your girl.

John: Right. That’s awesome.

Emma: Yeah. It’s been a huge, I think, just relationship-building tool, having that site and being able to say — because everyone geeks out over something. Whether it’s Star Wars or cooking or travel or whatever it is, there’s something that every single person on this planet is a geek about. It’s this one kind of beautiful thing that can bring people together.

John: It’s so true. Yeah, it’s all under one umbrella. It’s like, well, what do you geek out on? That’s basically what What’s Your “And”? is, is what do you geek out on?

Emma: Exactly.

John: For different people, it’s different things, but when they talk about that thing, they just light up. Their eyes get big. The tone in their voice is different. You can’t shut them up. It’s just non — and so it’s cool to have that energy between you and a client. It’s cool to have that energy in the office. If someone works in that kind of a setting, then why not have that energy and that kind of tone to that relationship? You’re around them a lot of times, a lot of hours.

Emma: Exactly.

John: I love that. Yeah. Maybe this is the geek out podcast now.

Emma: There you go.

John: What do you geek out on? That’s my second book. No. One’s enough. One’s enough. I guess one thing that, just to circle back on quickly, was you said how it just creates a better relationship with your clients. I guess, just, in what way? Just for people that are out there that are like, that’s way too off the reservation for me. I only talk about work and no work. Maybe if you could describe, rather than me telling them, it’s better in your words of, how does that relationship different or benefit from knowing?

Emma: It’s hard to describe. I definitely think has made the — when a client is trying to decide what web designer they’re going to go with or what agency they want to go with, they see me in a different light. I’m able to use that to separate me from the others. I’m not this corporate buttoned up girl. I’m wearing jeans and a Marvel t-shirt, and I’m going to knock out your website and have fun doing it. I love what I do. I think showing people how passionate I get about geek culture, and technology is a huge part of that. I love building things. I love designing things. Seeing that passion in me for what I do, I think just puts me in a different context in their mind. I think that’s one of the big ways that it sets it apart.

I also like to know that too, just about my clients, because I feel like that personal connection, knowing what makes someone tick, it’s going the extra mile to get to know someone and meet someone where they are and not just, I’m here to do a job, let me get it done. Yes, I’m going to do the job, but I also want to know who you are as a person, what makes you tick, and how does that influence your business and what you do?

John: Yeah, and you could do it much better because you actually — they come to you asking for something, and you’re like, well, what if this? Because after getting to know you, this is a huge part of who you are as a person or who your business is, you’re completely leaving this off the page. What if we did that? They see it. What? That’s awesome. So, you’re able to provide better service.

Emma: Absolutely. I think every business or every service provider out there is looking for ways to set themselves apart from their competition. By celebrating what makes you different and shining a light on that, I think is a really great way to do it.

John: Totally. It’s your differentiator. Why would you not put that top of the page? It’s so funny. We want to hide the one thing that differentiates us. Let’s maybe not even put it on the resume, or let’s not even put it on the website. Let’s not even put it on the About Us page or at the very bottom in super small font. It’s, no, no. That’s the only thing that makes you different. Everyone else is doing the exact same —

Emma: Exactly.

John: So, that’s super cool that you lean into that, and that you encourage your clients to, as well. Because it creates that safe space where, hey, Emma just showed up in that Marvel t-shirt. I’ve got one. I’m going to wear it to the next meeting, type of thing. All of a sudden, now we get real people showing up to meetings instead of automatons.

Emma: Exactly, exactly.

John: How much do you feel like, for an organization, and maybe ones that you’ve dealt with because in your case, it’s different, but how much is it on the organization to create that culture where it’s okay for people to share their “and”? Versus, how much is it on the individual to maybe just create that little small circle or be the change that they want to see in the world type of thing?

Emma: I think it’s up to both parties. I think that a company needs to create a safe space in which employees feel comfortable doing that and expressing themselves and celebrating what makes them them, but individuals also need to feel comfortable in doing that as well and putting that out there, putting themselves out there and trying to build those relationships and celebrate what makes everyone different, but also celebrate things that we have in common.

That was really, when I first started FanBolt, obviously, as I said earlier, it was to celebrate fandom, but I also had a very quintessential high school experience where I was bullied. I didn’t have a safe space to celebrate what I loved because I was made fun of for it. So, in starting FanBolt, it was such a passion of mine to create a safe haven where people could come and celebrate the things they love or the things that they didn’t have anyone else to celebrate with.

That’s the really amazing thing about geek culture. You can be 70 or seven. You can be any nationality, any gender. It doesn’t matter who you are, what you look like. We can all be a fan of the same thing. Star Wars fans look like everyone. Right?

John: Right. Right.

Emma: Disney fans look like everyone. Every single show or movie or piece of media property has a fandom behind it. You get to see different types of people come together, forget their differences and celebrate something they love and still be different. It’s such an interesting concept to me, and I love it. That’s what I love so much about fandom is the safe space that it creates for people to celebrate who they are.

John: I love that so much. On a slightly shallower level is what I feel like the What’s Your “And”? concept is, is professionals are, maybe bullied is too strong of a word for it, but they’re gently persuaded to behave a certain way and act a certain way. If you even have a hobby or an interest outside of work, I don’t know what you do, but even if you have it, don’t talk about it, that sort of mentality. So, creating that community where it’s like, no, no, this is normal. You’re not the only one. There’s all of us out here. I love the power behind that. That’s so cool to hear, what you’ve been able to do on a much, much bigger level, which is really cool.

Emma: Thank you.

John: Yeah. No, that’s awesome. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe feels like, I’ve got a hobby, or I’ve got a thing that I geek out on that no one’s going to care about, or it has nothing to do with my job?

Emma: I’d celebrate it. Celebrate what fuels you. At the end of the day, we don’t live to work. We work to live. We want to be able to celebrate the things that make us happy. It’s amazing when you can tie those things together. You truly love your work. That’s fantastic, but your hobbies are something that brings such joy to you. You shouldn’t put them on the back burner. You shouldn’t put them last. They need to be a priority to you because that’s what fuels you and motivates you to keep going and be happy. There’s enough sadness in the world already. Be happy. Do what makes you happy.

John: Right? Totally, and that energy you can then bring to work. Unfortunately, one doesn’t always pay the mortgage where the job does, but that enthusiasm and fuel, as you use the word for, is bring that fuel to work and have that joy there. I love that. That’s super awesome.

Well, before I wrap this up, it’s only fair, since I rapid-fire questioned you right out of the gate, that we turn the tables. This is the first episode of the Emma Loggins podcast. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate you booking me. Actually, I booked myself but anyway, I’m all yours.

Emma: Let’s see. Let’s start with favorite movie.

John: Favorite movie. All right, I’ve got a couple. There’s going to be Rudy because Notre Dame football. That’s what I geek out on. Dumb and Dumber is always good, no matter. You can start the movie at any point, and there’s going to be laughter. Probably Good Will Hunting is a really good one too. So, probably those three.

Emma: On that note, Ben Affleck or Matt Damon?

John: Oh, you know in that movie, I love Ben Affleck’s character so much. When he goes into the meeting with his white tube socks, and he’s negotiating this contract with — he’s just like, that’s not good enough. We’re out of here, whatever. It’s so funny to me. That movie is just, it’s so deep, and the characters in it are really rich. Robin Williams’ character, man, it just… It’s a good movie.

Emma: It is. It is. Favorite superhero.

John: Favorite superhero. Well, I don’t know. Iron Man’s always cool. I don’t know if that counts.

Emma: That counts. He’s a superhero.

John: That’s a good one. I’m also a big fan of Spider-Man who’s super — if you ran into Peter Parker on the street, there’s no way that dude’s a superhero. It’s always at night, and he’s not getting all the attention. It’s just like, I just do what I do. No one’s needs to know about it. Superman always is seen. No one sees Spider-Man. It’s just all in in the night. So, those two, I would say.

Emma: Spider-Man is a great choice, but Iron Man is just really cool. You could have so much fun playing with all the technology that he has.

John: Yeah, exactly. That’s the part of it. Spider-Man with the technology, I would be in heaven right there.

Emma: I know you said earlier that you are a Star Wars guy, not a Star Trek guy, so, favorite Star Wars character.

John: Favorite Star Wars character. When I was younger, the Ewoks were like the bomb, just the bomb. They were hilarious, but they could kick ass at the same time. That was always fun. Yeah, I don’t know. I guess I’ll go Ewoks just because it’s such a random answer.

Emma: The Ewok’s a good answer.

John: Also, I’m just really big fan of the original three. I have yet to venture off the reservation much because I haven’t heard great things, necessarily, so I don’t want to ruin it. Yeah, that’s why I’m still on the old school original.

Emma: I will say that The Mandalorian is fantastic.

John: Oh, yeah, that’s the new show. Disney Plus, right?

Emma: Yeah, yeah. It’s not just because of baby Yoda, but baby Yoda is a huge part of it.

John: Right.

Emma: But it’s really well-constructed. They did such a fantastic job with the story arc, and now that Disney owns it, it’s really cool to see how everything is coming together from all of their different properties, from Clone Wars, the original films, Mandalorian, all of these things, how they fit together in this giant Star Wars universe. I geek out over it. It’s really cool.

John: That’s awesome. No, that’s cool. Finally, someone’s bringing it together.

Emma: Yes. Disney owns all of us, but it’s cool to see what they’re doing.

John: Right. Exactly, exactly. Do something with this. This has been so much fun, Emma. I really appreciate you being a part of What’s Your “And”? Congrats on all your success and, yeah, I just look forward to staying in touch. Thanks for being a part of this.

Emma: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me.

John: Totally. Everyone, if you want to see some pictures of Emma or connect with her on social media or get the link to FanBolt.com, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 380 of What’s Your “And”? Follow-Up Friday Edition. This is John Garrett, and each Friday, I follow up with a guest who had been on the show a few years ago to hear what’s new with their passions outside of work and also hear how this message might have impacted them since we last talked.

I’m so excited. My book is out. You can order it on Amazon, Indigo, barnesandnoble.com, a few other websites, so check out whatsyourand.com for more. Thank you so much to everyone who’s read it so far and been kind enough to leave those Amazon reviews. It’s been just really overwhelming to read. For those of you that have been asking, the audio version is coming out in just a few weeks, so I’ll read it to you if that’s really what you want.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this Follow-Up Friday is no different with my guest, Dennis Sherrin. He’s the CEO and strategic consultant for Avizo Group Inc. in Fairhope, Alabama, and now he’s with me here today. Dennis, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Dennis: John, it’s great to be back.

John: Exactly, man. I’m excited. You had a sabbatical in between.

Dennis: Yeah.

John: We could chat about that. I’m excited.

Dennis: That’s right.

John: Alabama won another national championship in between.

Dennis: Sorry about that semifinal game for you.

John: Hey, that’s all right. It’s all right. We were there. Notre Dame was there. I’m pretty sure that they lost by less than Ohio State did, so I’ll take second place. That works.

Dennis: There you go. I like that. I like that. That’s good.

John: Right? No one else believes what I have to think but whatever. I have rapid-fire questions for you.

Dennis: All right.

John: Get to know Dennis. If you had to choose, Harry Potter or Game of Thrones.

Dennis: Harry Potter.

John: Okay, there you go. How about a favorite TV show of all time?

Dennis: All-time favorite TV show. Oh, my gosh, John, there are too many. I’m going to go with MASH because it’s the first one I remember.

John: MASH, that’s a classic. That’s such a great show. This is a good one, hamburger or pizza.

Dennis: Hamburger. Hamburger, baby, absolutely.

John: Hamburger.

Dennis: Yes, got to be a quality hamburger. We’re not talking fast food.

John: No, no, we’re talking good hamburger or good pizza.

Dennis: That’s right.

John: Yeah, yeah.

Dennis: Absolutely.

John: Absolutely. Here’s a tricky one, a shower or a bath.

Dennis: Shower, no question. I don’t want to sit in the water that I just bathe with.

John: Right. You know what? That’s a good point. There is now a wrong answer to that one. When it comes to books, real books, Kindle version or audio version?

Dennis: I like a real book because I like to underline things.

John: Oh, okay.

Dennis: I underlined a lot in your book, John, just so you know.

John: Oh. Well, thank you. Thank you so much, man. I appreciate that. That’s awesome. Two more. How about your first concert?

Dennis: STYX at the Mobile Civic Center.

John: Yes. That’s awesome.

Dennis: The opening act was a band called Wet Willie from Mobile, Alabama.

John: Oh, very cool.

Dennis: Yeah. They had a hit song once, too.

John: Right? There you go, Wet Willie. The last one, toilet paper, is it over or under?

Dennis: Oh, man, come on. You’re still bringing this one? It’s over.

John: It’s over. All right. I’m just making sure. Every once in a while, there’s a cat person that tries to justify their craziness.

Dennis: Okay, so one of our offices tends to have it under. I’m going to have to have a little intervention with them one day and fix them.

John: Exactly. It’s like, who keeps switching this back to over? The only time Dennis visits, that’s why. Good for you, man. Good for you. Yeah, Episode 177, that was several years ago. We talked hiking. There’s a Grand Canyon adventure in there, all kinds of trips like that. Is that still something that you’ve been able to do?

Dennis: Actually, yes, believe it or not. You mentioned earlier, I took a sabbatical. Part of that, my wife and I, literally, John — so, my sabbatical was from August 1st to November 30th of 2019. On August 1st, we were literally on the road to New Mexico to spend a week in northern New Mexico at Philmont Scout Ranch and do a whole bunch of back country stuffs. We hiked, such as that, did the same thing in the Smoky Mountains later in the sabbatical, and just had a great time doing that.

Just to finish the sabbatical story, the end of the sabbatical, it was like, hey, Amy, the Eagles are playing in Las Vegas in September. She’s like, “Get the tickets.” We literally, it was like a month before we were able to pull off getting tickets, flew to Vegas and saw them perform the whole album of Hotel California in the first set.

John: Wow.

Dennis: Then they came back, and they pretty much played everything else for the next two and a half hours.

John: Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

Dennis: These 70-year-old dudes were just killing it up there on the stage. It was fun. That was the finishing part of the sabbatical, and there is that. Other than that, yeah, man, just stayed busy with a lot of different stuff. There was some travel, got involved with the Alabama Society of CPAs, so.

John: Oh, yeah.

Dennis: I was their board chair and past chair and such as that. Still involved because I found out that it’s really neat to have a role like that where you can influence your profession a little more and try to help your profession. With all due respect to my profession, it moves a little slower than it needs to right now.

John: Right.

Dennis: I still call that an adventure because it is an adventure to spend time and do that and continue to serve on that group.

John: That’s awesome.

Dennis: Fun stuff to me.

John: Yeah, yeah, there’s a lot of the accounting professions, fixing to get ready to, right?

Dennis: We’re researching that. Okay, I got to give you a deadline. We can’t research it any more after this day. You’ve got to make a choice.

John: Right.

Dennis: We have a bunch of amazing people, as you’ve shown by these shows you have, John. I just want to be able to find those amazing people and get us all helping the rest move in the direction so that, as we go into the future, I’ll be retired at that point probably, but we have a lot of good things that this profession still does for businesses and communities as a whole. That’s become something of a passion for me, doing all that kind of stuff, but, yeah, pretty cool stuff.

John: Yeah. Was there one of the hikes that you did in that sabbatical that was maybe your favorite, or a part of it that was like, wow, this is incredible.

Dennis: I can think of two hikes that I’ve done since we last talked that were pretty neat. One was during the sabbatical back in August when we were at Philmont Scout Ranch, place called Lover’s Leap. I didn’t leap. I’m here, so obviously, I didn’t leap. It was about a 12-mile round-trip hike, and it’s led by a Ranger. It was the first really big hike where my wife had significant elevation gain. Philmont starts out, we were at about 7,000 feet above sea level before we started that day, and we got up to a little over 9,000.

When you get up there and you can see this whole valley, because the Scout Ranch sits at the very, really the southern end of the Rockies, so you can look out. There’s the plains of the southern part of New Mexico stretching forever. Just this incredible view and it was a crystal clear day and beautiful weather. Temperatures were real nice. It was August, but we were up there pretty hot. It was still —

John: And it’s a desert, so it’s not humid.

Dennis: Yeah, not humid. Fantastic. Then there was a hike that we actually did last October, John. We got stir crazy since we got to go somewhere. I asked my wife. I said, “We’ve got a choice. We can go to California, go to Yosemite. We could go to the Florida Keys and hangout. We could go to Utah and go to Zion and Bryce and things like that.” She says, “I want to go to Utah.” I said, “All right, we’re going.” We did. We went to both Zion and Bryce.

In Zion, I scheduled a hike up to Angel’s Landing, which is a strenuous hike to get there and then that last little bit, was tough. We’d take off on that hike and do it. She just crushed it. When we got back down, I said, “By the way, that was the most strenuous hike that you can have in the canyon here. You did really good.”

We sat up there on top, and you look in the valley. The cars do look like ants. Again, it was just another day. There was a lot of people up there on scouts landing with us, but it seemed like there was nobody just because everybody was quiet and peaceful. They were just soaking it in. The peak of both of those hikes really still stick with me to this day. It was really cool, man.

John: That’s super cool. Yeah, that’s awesome, and to do it with your wife and for her to go all the way to the top as well because you didn’t tell her beforehand how hard it was so then you tell her after.

Dennis: I survived. She’s like, okay. She’s a pretty good hiker. She just sometimes — we all worry about it at some point. I can remember doing it myself, carrying a backpack and like, what am I doing here? It was really good, memorable hikes.

John: That’s really cool. Do you feel that people are sharing these hobbies and passions more, and just professionals, in general, are being more well-rounded or at least exposing themselves to others, showing them that, hey, I’ve got these other sides to me?

Dennis: Yeah. It’s funny. I remember when we did the show before. For me, I like to talk a little bit about the things that I always did. Obviously, I believe that I do it more now, but I also see around our office, I hear our team talking about more. Being a part of Alabama Society of CPAs, we have a large Board of Directors. There are individuals on that board that I know a lot about what they do. We’ve got a spelunker, John.

John: Wow.

Dennis: We have a spelunker.

John: Yeah, we need to get that person lined up.

Dennis: Exactly.

John: That’s so awesome. That’s cool.

Dennis: Yes, exactly. It’s been really fun to be more aware of when other people are talking about their activity. I think, for me, the benefit of hearing your show and participating in it is I’ve become more aware of what others are saying a lot of times, where I may not have done as good a job of that in the past, even with our clients.

Sometimes going out visiting — I usually just get allowed to visit clients these days. I don’t get to necessarily do work with them. It’s actually the fun part. I just sit down and have conversations. It’s really crazy the conversations you have, the good conversations you have when you just start sharing a story about or showing them a picture of sitting up on top of this mountain or sitting in front of this waterfall with one of my sons or something like that.

John: Yeah.

Dennis: Just strike up a conversation out of that is, that’s really more noticeable than I really ever thought it would be, and it’s really cool to take that approach to how I think of every relationship now, if you will.

John: Yeah. No, that means a lot because it’s one of those things where it’s — I was speaking in the fall on a virtual conference, and somebody in the chat was like, isn’t this intuitive? Yes, but you’re not doing it. I’m not showing up as some rocket science genius person. I’m just friendly reminder. People around you have these other dimensions. Ask about them and find out about them. So, that’s cool to hear.

Dennis: Yeah.

John: It’s something that’s simple, but then it’s a richer conversation. It’s a deeper relationship. The spelunker, who cares what their job is, right? You didn’t say, “Hey, we’ve got an auditor, John.”

Dennis: What would pique your interest there? Come on.

John: Right. You’ll never believe it, government audits. He’s amazing.

Dennis: Yeah.

John: Right?

Dennis: I really like that. Yeah.

John: No, that’s cool, man. That’s really cool to hear. Have you seen whether it’s there at Avizo or clients or other firms that are doing things to help people to share those interests?

Dennis: Yes. I think from Avizo, for the perspective, is we’ve been more remote than we have been in the past. We’ve had to focus more on using video and having communications. We’ve had more all-firm kind of conversations and meetings than in the past, and we always seem to try to start those off with just, I’ll call it banter, back and forth. Somebody starts picking on somebody, but we start finding out what’s going on. Or you start looking in their background, like yours. You start asking questions, and you start hearing a story about what’s going on. Or you do see the cat jump up on the keyboard there. Oh, yeah, look at that. How many cats do you have? 26. Wow, that’s a lot of cats.

John: That’s a lot. That’s a lot.

Dennis: Those kind of just normal functions that have kind of moved. Instead of trying to force something that really makes this happen, just letting the normal activities we had somehow creating those further conversations about the personal side of people in a normal conversation is something that I’ve seen a lot of, and that’s good. So, from our perspective, I think that’s something that I’ve seen. I’ve also seen it with a few of our bigger clients that I usually go out and visit.

John, you may know… I don’t know. I don’t know if it was big national news. We had a hurricane down here.

John: Right? Yeah. Yeah, you did.

Dennis: Anyway, after that, I got to visit some of our clients that are on the coast. They’re all doing well, but they had a lot of challenges. Having conversations about just personal experiences, we ended up laughing about a lot of things even though that was a tough time, because we just found a way to make the conversations and find the humor in the day to day things. That’s so much more fun than talking about, this is going to be casualty loss. We need from the tax perspective to use coded section whatever. I don’t know code sections.

John: Right. Before you fix your roof, can we get the files so we can get this reported?

Dennis: Yeah.

John: It’s like, no.

Dennis: They know we are going to be there to guide them and help them with those things, so us making conversation about other things that are pleasing and of interest is, it’s fun. It really is fun.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah, and it’s truly being a trusted adviser because there’s actually genuine trust, even brain science trust there where you’ve been a little bit vulnerable, and you open yourself up to have real conversations. Yeah, that’s really rewarding, man. That’s cool to hear. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening who maybe thinks that they have a hobby or passion that has nothing to do with their job, and no one’s going to care about it?

Dennis: Thinking out loud here. If you like who you are, share it with somebody because somebody else is going to like it, and encourage them to do the same. I think that’s what I would say. I think we all like who we are, in some way, shape or form. How can we let people know a little bit more about who we are, and then open that opportunity for them as well?

John: I love that. It’s so great. If you like you, then why wouldn’t someone else? If they don’t, that’s on them.

Dennis: Right. Yeah. Yeah, it’s on them.

John: That’s your problem. Right. That’s your problem. That’s awesome. Very cool. Well, this has been so much fun, Dennis. I feel like it’s only fair that before I wrap this up, that I turn the tables and very nervously hand over the mic to the first episode of The Dennis Sherrin podcast, everybody.

Dennis: Well, thank you.

John: Thanks for having me on.

Dennis: Thank you, John. I brought a special guest, a famous football coach.

John: Okay.

Dennis: Just get in here. All right. Okay, John, I’ve I got three questions I’ll give you here. Number one, if you had the power, which would you choose, to be invisible or read minds?

John: Oh, wow. I’m kind of scared to know what people are thinking because I feel like, especially in the last year, we’ve seen it all on social media.

Dennis: Exactly.

John: I’ll just be invisible so that I don’t have to — you won’t see me, and I don’t have to know what you’re thinking because I probably already do know. I’ll be invisible, just lesser of two evils, I guess.

Dennis: I’m with you. Absolutely. All right, number two, favorite song.

John: Favorite song. Wow, that’s a great question. Oh, man, there are so many that come to mind right now. A song that I could just listen to over and over and over, like a Killers’ Mr. Brightside or Blink-182, just almost any of those songs.

Dennis: Nice. Yeah. Yeah.

John: Or even like a Metallica one is such a great deep, rich song. I guess that. There’s also Mozart’s concerto and — no, I’m just kidding. Notre Dame Victory March, that would be high on the list, probably high on my list.

Dennis: Yeah. I sort of wondered if that one would come up. All right, final question. I like Joes, so I thought this would be good. Joe Theismann or Joe Montana.

John: Oh, look at you catering to my…

Dennis: That’s right.

John: You’re awfully kind. You’re awfully kind. Yeah, I’m going to go Joe Montana on that one, I think, yeah, just one of my things.

Dennis: I would say he was the greatest quarterback of all time, but I think Brady finally eclipsed him.

John: I know. It is tough.

Dennis: Yeah.

John: It’s tough to swallow that it’s Tom Brady, but, man, he is so good. He’s just, yeah, he’s just good. It’s hard to go against that.

Dennis: Yeah, we’ll just leave it at that.

John: Right. Exactly, exactly. Dennis, thank you so much, man, for being a part of this and also just living this out and reading the book, being a part of the book launch team. It meant so much. I really appreciate it.

Dennis: Pleasure, John. Good to talk to you, as always.

John: Awesome. Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Dennis from his adventures or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 379 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiates you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. It just came out.

The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and now listening to it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. Thank you so much for that.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes because I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, James Perry.

After spending years in public accounting and then as a controller, he’s now the founder of Accounting Success Coach, helping both accounting students with study and exam techniques, and seasoned finance professionals with mindset and motivation. Based in Downpatrick, Northern Ireland and now he’s with me here today; James, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

James: Great to be with you, John. Absolute pleasure.

John: This is going to be awesome and so much fun but first, 17 rapid fire questions, get to know James out of the gate. Here we go. First one, here’s an easy one, favorite color.

James: Green.

John: Green. Nice. Very Irish of you, I like that.

James: Absolutely. Not stereotypical at all.

John: Right. How about a least favorite color?

James: White.

John: White. I feel like there’s a soccer representation happening here.

James: That was very quite coincidental.

John: I see what’s happening. Here we go, favorite adult beverage.

James: Oh, I’ll say whiskey.

John: Okay. All right.

James: Because that’s created in Ireland.

John: Yeah, yeah. I was like, it’s either that or Guinness. It’s got to be one of —

James: The Irish for whiskey is called uisce beatha, and it means the water of life.

John: Oh, nice. Very good. That’s actually very true. That’s awesome. Andrew Van De Beek in Australia, who has also been on the podcast, would agree with you, 100%. How about a favorite actor or actress?

James: I’ll say Liam Neeson.

John: Oh, okay.

James: There’s a theme here.

John: There is a theme here. I love this. This is awesome. I’m trying to figure out my questions, if I can keep throwing you softballs here. Yeah, I can’t. How about puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

James: Crossword.

John: Crossword, okay. Yeah, I thought they were invented in Ireland so then I was trying to — no, I’m just kidding.

James: Sudoku that’s a very Irish word that.

John: Right. Oh, here’s a good one, talk or text.

James: Oh, talk, definitely.

John: Yeah. I agree. I agree. There’s a time for texting, but talking is definitely a lot better. Would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

James: Definitely night owl.

John: There you go. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

James: Star Wars. I wouldn’t really be a fan of either, but Star Wars I know more of. Also it was filmed in Ireland.

John: I didn’t know that. Really? That’s amazing.

James: What it was, I don’t know which one, but Luke Skywalker walks out of this crazy rocky area.

John: Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay, very cool. All right, your computer, more of a PC or a Mac.

James: PC.

John: PC. Yeah, me too. Me too. How about a favorite ice cream flavor? I love ice cream.

James: Honeycomb ice cream.

John: Oh, nice.

James: Honeycomb is lovely, or mint, followed up by mint.

John: Right. Sure. Okay. Yeah, honeycomb, that’s a good answer. That’s different. Don’t get that all the time. Oh, here’s one, summer, winter, spring or fall. You have four seasons in Ireland, right?

James: They sort of merge into one but in general, spring because the flowers are starting to come up and the trees are starting to go into leaf. I love that. I love spring.

John: Yeah, yeah, very pretty. Very pretty. How about balance sheet or income statement?

James: Oh, God. Balance sheet because that’s where the cash reserves live.

John: That’s where cash reserve — there you go. All right. That’s awesome. That’s funny. All right, we got five more, five more. Chocolate or vanilla.

James: Oh, chocolate, without a doubt. I can give you another crazy, crazy Irish fact.

John: Sure.

James: The guy who invented, sort of invented chocolate and gave it to Cadbury in England was literally born about 10 miles away from where I come from.

John: Oh, wow. That guy’s my hero.

James: A guy called Hans Sloane, who also started the British Museum.

John: Wow, I need to get to work. He’s an overachiever.

James: Absolutely.

John: My hero. How about socks or shoes?

James: Socks because I don’t run about in my bare feet.

John: Right? Yeah.

James: I can wear socks around the house very, very easily with not even worrying about shoes. Or I could say slippers. That’s the best of both worlds.

John: It is. They’re socks shoes. That’s fantastic. I love that. Favorite number.

James: For some reason, I’d say eight.

John: Okay. Is there a reason why or you just — because it’s very balanced? It looks pretty. It’s very symmetrical.

James: Yeah, it’s like an hourglass shape. There you go. You can pick from that, whatever you want.

John: There you go. Right, everyone’s breaking you down right now. Oh, you just said hourglass. Oh, man, not that again. When it comes to books, Kindle, real book or the audio version.

James: Real book.

John: Real book.

James: Well, I’m going to caveat that. Sometimes I’d buy the Audible.

John: Yeah, I’ve heard a lot of people saying that, which is why I went and recorded mine. Just more of my voice though, so here we go, everybody.

James: I like my books as well. If it’s a reference book or a business book, I will highlight.

John: Yeah, yeah. Then you can go back for the good parts. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

James: Oh, God, this is going to be controversial because I shouldn’t have that, a sliver of The Great Pyramid.

John: Oh, wow. Okay. All right. Well, I mean, it’s in quotes, The Great Pyramid.

James: It happened to be flaking off.

John: Right. That’s amazing.

James: I’m looking at it right now.

John: That’s pretty awesome, and I don’t blame you one bit, which bleeds perfectly into your “and” of — so, when was this trip and have you been many times or…

James: Oh, to Egypt?

John: Yeah.

James: Been twice.

John: Okay.

James: Once was primarily based around Cairo, which must have been about 10 years ago, and then I’ve done a full tour of the country in 2018.

John: Oh, wow.

James: Which was just absolutely incredible.

John: That’s awesome.

James: Yeah, so I’d done Cairo again for about two days. Then we took a nine-hour train ride down to the southern part of Egypt. Then we sailed back up the Nile.

John: Oh, wow, that sounds awesome.

James: It was incredible and visited all the, I think it was 12 sites, I want to say, John. 11 of them was on the itinerary, and I managed to get the tour guide to get me alone to the 12th one, which was way off the beaten track. So, I’d seen everything that I wanted to see, all based obviously, on Ancient Egypt, so it’s unbelievable.

John: That is really awesome. We’ll get into that but first, how did you get so fascinated with Egypt? Is it since you were a kid? I remember when I was a kid, reading about Tutankhamen and the pharaoh masks. It was always cool to me, but I never went so I need to.

James: Whenever I was young, I suppose, John, what happened was that most people wanted to go and play the Nintendo. I wanted to go and see the wonders of the world. How mad is that, whenever you’re young? Normal people wanted to play the computer. I didn’t.

John: No, but I love it, man. I think that’s great.

James: To be honest with you, the first time I’d seen The Great Pyramid on TV, I couldn’t believe it. I literally couldn’t believe it, yet it’s not my — I want to contradict myself. So, from seeing it, I believe it’s the greatest structure in the world, bar none.

John: Yeah.

James: But it’s not my favorite thing in Egypt.

John: Oh, okay.

James: Believe it or not. So, yes, it started very early on. I wanted to go and see the likes of Machu Picchu, Petra, the Taj Mahal, but then I got especially fascinated with Egypt.

John: So what is your favorite thing in Egypt then if it’s not the Great Pyramid?

James: Okay, so, over time, whenever I got really interested in Egypt, I got very interested in Ramesses II, the greatest Pharaoh of them all. If some dude can be a megalomaniac, if he can rule until he was 97, for 70 years, 4000 years ago, and have 120 children, he’s a bit of a hero in my eyes.

John: Right. I don’t blame you, man. I don’t blame you.

James: His temple where he’d actually declared himself divine, it basically went, I am God. It’s in a temple called Abu Simbel, which is in the southern part of Egypt, and these massive, mammoth statues carved in the side of a mountain. It’s literally breathtaking. The other reason why it was, it was on this stretch of the Nile that split Egypt at Nubia. The Nubians could basically sail up and see this massive thing. It was saying, right, lads, guess who’s the daddy here?

John: Yeah, yeah, that’s well played.

James: It’s absolutely phenomenal. I was able to look it squarely in the face and go inside. Also it’s lined up with the sunrise as well. Incredible building.

John: Well, it is incredible how so far advanced they were, for being so long ago.

James: Oh, it’s unbelievable, like The Great Pyramid, and I’m reading a book about some of the conspiracy theories around the Nile. The coordinates of The Great Pyramid, if you were to take away, I could be wrong here, but I’m going to say the general gist, if you were to take degrees north and degrees south, et cetera, out of it, and line up the numbers, that’s the exact number of the speed of light.

John: Holy moly.

James: Yep.

John: That’s not an accident.

James: I think it’s like a quarter of an inch off a perfect square. How the hell did they do that?

John: Right. You can’t even do that today with computers.

James: I think they would struggle.

John: I’ve seen pictures, but is it just so big that —

James: Well, the blocks at the bottom are up to my shoulder, and the lightest block is something like 15 tons.

John: Yeah, that’s amazing.

James: Up until the Eiffel Tower was built, it was the tallest building in the world for 4,000 years.

John: Man, that is tall because I’ve seen the Eiffel Tower. It’s like, all right.

James: Yeah, I’ve been to the top of the Eiffel Tower.

John: Yeah, yeah.

James: Unfortunately, it was February time, and the person I was with was probably under pressure.

John: Oh, man. Yeah, that’s cold. No, but that’s impressive, man. That’s really cool. It just expands your horizon, your thinking, all that stuff.

James: Oh, it’s incredible, John, incredible. In Luxor, there’s a temple called Karnak Temple, and it is still the biggest religious complex in the world, still.

John: Man, that’s amazing.

James: Its acreage is just huge. It’s much bigger than the Vatican.

John: Wow, which is saying something. That’s nuts. So then that trip up the Nile, that’s just reliving thousands of years of history. That had to be pretty cool to witness and just be a part of.

James: Another really cool fact as well was on one stretch of the Nile, we were passed actually by a steamboat, and the steamboat was King Nasser’s former boat.

John: Holy cow. What?

James: Yeah,

John: That’s amazing.

James: The trip was phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal.

John: That’s really cool. That’s really cool, just to see all that stuff, plus the food and the culture and just everything else about it.

James: It’s craziness. It’s craziness. To put it into some context, the population of Cairo is, I think, about 23 to 24 million people, right? The population of Ireland, the entire island is 6 million people.

John: Right. Yeah, for you, it’s like, wait, what?

James: If you had the Irish quarter in Cairo, you can stick the whole country into it.

John: Right, and four times. It’s like, what?

James: Also the craziness as well, John, the craziness of Cairo. If you drive there, you’re kicking your life into your hands.

John: Yeah. Right, right. It’s like, there are lines on the street, kind of, but just go. The roundabouts in Africa are hilarious, where it’s like, elbows up and just go. Just go because you can wait forever waiting for someone to let you in. It’s like, nope, you just got to go.

James: One thing was, and I think I put it up on my social media a way back, was someone filmed me crossing the road, and I went, the hell with this, right? Typical mad Irish man fashion, I decided to cross the road by myself. Somebody filmed me. At the very end, I’d done a victory sign. Yeah, like this, at the very, very end. I was so proud of myself.

John: That’s hilarious, almost like Frogger back in the days.

James: Yeah, but this is Frogger on steroids.

John: Yeah, and real life, there’s no try again, after. That’s so cool, man, so cool. Do you feel like being infatuated with that or some of the travel at all, gives you a skill set that you brought to work at all, or bring to work now?

James: Believe it or not, I think it was all the way around, John. I think my experiences and work enabled me to go and travel. I’m very much about achievement. The Eight Wonders of the World, which is the Seven Modern and the original Ancient, of those eight, I’ve seen six.

John: Oh, nice.

James: If it wasn’t for COVID, I would have done that Eight. I will do the Eight whenever the time is right. I don’t know if anybody else that I know of, that has seen the Eight Wonders of the World.

John: If they’ve seen one, it was kind of on accident. It was like, oh, I guess there’s the Taj Mahal. They probably didn’t even know it, that they were part of the Eight. It’s like, oh, there’s some pyramid.

James: That’s what drives me. In terms of going through the profession of even exams, the discipline of doing that and taking personal responsibility and all these sort of other things that we don’t realize that the profession actually gives you, you can use it. Also obviously the financial aspect, you can go and do these trips. People laugh at me, where my average holiday costs £ 2,500.

John: Yeah, right.

James: No, I make absolutely no apology over that because travel, I think, is the most precious thing that I can spend money on.

John: Yeah, that’s your priorities, which is awesome. I think that’s really cool how it’s almost the inverse of…

James: Yeah, the discipline and that sort of thing, absolutely.

John: No, totally. Also, you’re admiring the achievement of what they did as well, back in the day —

James: Oh, yeah.

John: — of building these things and the precision and the skills that it took to do that. It’s really no different than what you’re doing now.

James: Just to top it off, in Cairo, you’ve got the greatest building in the world, my opinion, the greatest building ever built, The Great Pyramid. Literally two to 300 yards away is the greatest statue ever built or ever carved, which is the Sphinx. If you look at the Sphinx, it is mesmerizing. That is not a stereotype. It is mesmerizing. You can still see the paint on its forehead.

John: That’s amazing.

James: It’s unbelievable, and the size and the scale. I’ve got a photograph where you’ve got me, the Sphinx and The Great Pyramid all lined up. You’re going, that is just immense.

John: Right? There’s now a Ninth Wonder of the World, James Perry.

James: Absolutely. I’m doing my best in lockdown to match its size.

John: Right. That’s hilarious.

James: Believe it or not.

John: You just lay down and then it’s like, hey, look at that mound.

James: Absolutely. Do you know whenever Homer Simpson — Homer Simpson lay on the couch or something one day and people fed him doughnuts in this conveyor belt? Imagine me in lockdown.

John: Yeah, that’s a dream right there. When you’re back for the Follow-Up Friday, it’ll be doughnuts we’ll talk about.

James: Absolutely.

John: It will be very good.

James: It will be good, absolutely.

John: Right? Yeah, so is this something that you’ve talked about with coworkers and clients, or something that you’ve shared, or it’s come up in conversation on occasion?

James: I tell every single client about this.

John: Oh, okay.

James: The first session that I do, whether it’s exam coaching, John, or my career coaching program, it is… My first question whenever I have an exam coaching client is, why the hell are you doing this shit for?

John: Right, right.

James: They look at you and go, what? I go, well, this is a hard road, between the study and the pressure of work. Then we go through the reasons why they’re doing this shit. Then we get onto, what do you want to achieve in your life? Then I’ll talk about my travels and say, “This is what my exams, this is what the profession has helped me get to.” That’s what I talk about. The same with the career development client, whenever they want to go maybe into senior management or whatever, I’m never having those conversations. I’d say, what are you doing this for?

You can get all this short-term motivational bullshit, but unless you know why you’re doing it or know those core drivers, which I understood for me, which I want to go and see the world, so I might as well get a good qualification and profession to help back that up, and that’s what happened. So, yes, every single client knows about my travels.

John: That’s so cool because it tightens so many people. Sometimes we’re hesitant to share that just because in our heads, we think, well, it doesn’t have to do directly with the work, so no one’s going to care or all the things that we tell ourselves in our head. I’m sure a lot of things that you help people with in the career coaching, of just what we tell ourselves that aren’t these lies. It’s amazing how our own brain can be our worst enemy.

James: Absolutely. I don’t do BS. I’m quite a straight talker. You very rarely — whenever I question people, they very rarely say money. Don’t get me wrong. Money is the byproduct to go and do the things, but 10 years ago, it could have been a different conversation, John, because I probably was very driven by money. I was determined to go for partnership within public accounting. There’s a couple of good old sayings here in Ireland. Of course, they’re always quite humorous. There’s no such thing as a tow bar on a hearse.

John: Oh, wow. You can’t take it with you.

James: The other one is, there’s no such thing as pockets in the shroud.

John: Oh.

James: So whenever we get down to brass tacks on what really means something to people, it’s human connection, or it’s achievement. Money facilitates things. You don’t want to hoard money in a bank. I have yet to know very many people who wants to go into a vault and count all their money.

John: Right?

James: It’s what that gets you, and I think that’s the important thing.

John: And the freedom and the ability to go do those things because it’s rarely, I can’t wait to go do more work. The reasons are rarely ever, yeah, I want to go through this so I can do more work. It’s, no, no, you want to do it so you have money to go do the passions you have outside of work. The sooner we all recognize those passions and that we have them, the better it is for everybody.

James: Absolutely.

John: Yeah, because I feel like for so long we’ve been acting like no one does anything, and we all love work because of work. It’s like, no, no, we love work because we get stuff to go do the cool stuff, type of thing.

James: Don’t get me wrong. I’m not going to be naive and say that money is not a concern. It obviously is, but I have never met a person yet or someone who will be on their deathbed and said, “You know something, I’m dying here, but I wish to spend more hours in the office.”

John: Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. Or I wish I’d saved more money. It’s like, no, you’re good. Yeah, yeah. No, that’s exactly true. Even when you worked in public accounting and stuff like that, did you find people — I know it was a little bit of a different time, but it wasn’t that long ago — that people shared outside-of-work hobbies and passions, or was it pretty much, get the work done?

James: It was so much get the work done, man. The concerns were chargeable hours. The concerns were budgets. The concerns were work in progress. The concerns were deadlines and getting that audit report signed and getting enough on the file. That’s what the concerns were, and that’s the pressures, I suppose, of public accounting. It didn’t really come to the fore for me until, I suppose, five years ago, five or six years ago, whenever, I suppose, I changed my philosophy on life with that. So, no, it was very much the culture, it was very much the stereotypical culture of the accounting profession where it was work, work, work, work, work.

John: Yeah, yeah.

James: That’s fine, until you know the ropes. That is fine. You have to do your apprenticeship, and you have to serve your time.

John: Sure, but I feel like the work’s going to happen, either way. You could, on occasion, share hobbies with each other or what actually lights you up, type of thing, because then it just makes work more enjoyable. You’re not talking about work all the time. There’s a little reprieve to light you up. Hey, so these pyramids, tell me about them. You’re just like…

James: I think social media and media, in general, and your phones are maybe much easier now with people. I didn’t have a smartphone until five years ago. I was one of the very late adopters. That was probably a bit of peer pressure, as well, so much so I’m going to try and sign off a couple of the platforms now and actually delete a number of the platforms. I think showing the photographs and going on social media and other things that facilitate maybe a bit of a more social look within work. I remember I started in 2003, 2004, 2005. That wasn’t as prevalent, I suppose.

John: Same for me except for I was about five years before that. Yeah, it was one of those where you didn’t even know if anybody had anything, so you just assume, well, I guess no one does because no one said it. I guess it doesn’t exist. It’s like, just because I haven’t seen the Pyramids with my own eyes, doesn’t mean they don’t exist, and the same with people’s hobbies and passions outside of work.

James: Absolutely.

John: Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe thinks, I’ve got this passion that no one’s going to care about or has nothing to do with my job?

James: Simply go and do it. I know that’s very stereotypical, go and do it. We’re in very unusual circumstances here with COVID, et cetera, but in normal circumstances, we have mostly all got the means to go and do what we want to do. We’ve got access online to things we want to go and do. I don’t think there’s that many excuses anymore, so, definitely do it. You know what I mean? Life is too short. There’s a good old book written by Mark Manson, which is, if I can remember what you call it, The Subtle Art of Not Giving an F.

John: Oh, right. Yeah, that just came out a couple of years ago.

James: The last chapter is about death. I’m going to be honest, folks. Read that chapter because it puts it into perspective. If you’ve got something you want to do, go and do it. Now is the time to do it. It’s not to save and, John, like my father’s day where he would say, “I wish I’d done this, and I wish I’d done that.” My dad was one of the very stereotypical Irish family, one of 15 of a family, who had to leave school at 14 to go automatically into work to bring money back to the household. My dad didn’t have too much. It’s only now he’s got a lot. So, relatively speaking, way more opportunities than ever before, so go and take them.

John: Yeah, I love that. That’s so awesome, man. Before we wrap this up, though, it’s only fair that I turn the tables, since I so rudely peppered you with questions. This is the first episode of the James Perry podcast. Thanks for having me on, James. I appreciate it.

James: Believe it or not, I had a podcast called James Perry Presents.

John: Oh, well, there we go. We’re rebooting it. Here it is. It’s a reboot.

James: Okay, what’s your favorite word, John?

John: Oh, my favorite word. That’s a good one. I think it’s related to this message, but there’s a word, eudaimonia.

James: That sounds a wee bit like diarrhea.

John: Right? It’s what happens when you read my book. You get eudaimonia. No, no. It’s actually an ancient Greek word. Aristotle wrote all about it. It’s the optimal state of human existence. It’s good soul or good self. It’s not happiness because happiness is fleeting, but it’s always being all of who you are to all of what you do.

James: I wonder if that’s related to utopia.

John: Well, the EU is good. I’m sure it’s cousins of, but it’s just that optimal state of who you are and what you do. I feel like, in a way, professionalism prevents us from achieving that. Professionalism’s whole goal is go to work with one arm tied behind your back.

James: Conformity.

John: Yeah, and as a shell of who you are, put on that veneer to protect yourself. Eudaimonia is like, no, no, let it shine all the time, obviously, in an appropriate way, depending on the time and place, but don’t be a shell of who you are. I’m going back old school too, maybe not quite as old school as you but close, relatively speaking.

James: Yeah, if you look at the Egyptians and the Roman Stoics as well, they had it fairly well summed up as well. They knew what they were talking about.

John: Exactly. That’s a good question.

James: Can I hit you with another question?

John: Oh, absolutely. I’m on your show. What are you talking about?

James: Give me a chance to speak on my own show, please. What is your most used emoji?

John: My most used emoji is the laughy face because I need people to know that I’m being sarcastic. There needs to be a sarcasm font so then people know that I’m joking. Or if I say something super sarcastic, that they know that I’m not being mean.

James: We are probably some of the most sarcastic people in the world, Irish people. There’s a good old thing I say, point number four, right? The reason why I say that, John, is because on St. Patrick’s Day, I normally send to some of my friends, 15 points you know you’re Irish when.

John: Okay, okay.

James: Things like, whenever you want someone, you get your granny to light a candle to Jesus, that sort of Irishness, right?

John: Right.

James: Point number four is you show your affection for someone via insults.

John: Right. Exactly. They can take it.

James: Absolutely.

John: Or even if it’s just sarcasm or it’s not even necessarily even full on insult, but it’s laughy face. Then it’s like, all right. That’s like my get out of jail free card. It’s almost like you can say whatever you want and then laughy face. It’s like, well, he didn’t mean it.

James: What’s the first concert you attended?

John: Oh, first concert, easy. It was Metallica, and it was in the Riverport Amphitheater in St. Louis. I was 15. It was the Black Album had just come out. There were like six or seven or eight of us piled into my dad’s minivan, and he drove us to the amphitheater. There were way too many of us in this minivan. We went to the amphitheater. We went to the show. My dad went to his office, did work, I guess, came back. This was way before cellphones even existed. We found the minivan and got — I mean, now we couldn’t do that without a smartphone of like, where are you? What’s your coordinates? It all worked.

Man, it was unbelievable show. I’ll never forget it. Who was the opening band? Oh, there was an opening band. It was called Metal Church. We had never heard of them, but the four dudes sitting in front of us were the Metal Church super fans of the universe, I guess. I don’t know. Or they were on something. Yeah, they were way into it. Oh, man, I’ll never forget it. It was unbelievable.

James: First concert I was ever at was Def Leppard.

John: Oh, there you go. Okay.

James: I am a Def Leppard super fun, by the way. I’m actually passionate about Def Leppard. Believe it or not, the best concert I was ever at was in the same night in Belfast, and I actually then went the next night to Dublin, was Tesla, Journey, Whitesnake and Def Leppard.

John: Oh, my goodness. That’s amazing.

James: I went two nights in a row, one in Belfast and the other in Dublin.

James: I bet you couldn’t talk for two weeks from singing every song.

James: Absolutely. Oh, God, absolutely.

John: That’s one of those concerts where it’s like, they wrote that one too? What?

James: I do know that Def Leppard is incredibly popular in America, but they’re actually not particularly popular here, which is incredible.

John: Yeah, that’s sad.

James: Given the fact that one of the guitarists is originally from the town 15 miles away from me.

John: Oh, wow.

James: They’ve even gambled from here.

John: It would bring it all back to how we started, back to Ireland. There it is. There we go.

James: Just a crazy story, I was in Heathrow Airport one day, and I was walking along with a friend of mine. I looked at the corner of my eye. This guy was sitting on a chair who looked like Rick Allen, the drummer from Def Leppard, and had only one arm. What does James the person ask him? Are you Rick Allen? Quite obviously it was Rick Allen. He said one of the most rock and roll things. He said, “I am some of time, mate.” I’m like, oh my god, you’re just so cool. You’re just simply a rock god, but a really nice guy, a really, really nice guy.

John: I need to use that line now. If people, “Hey, are you John,” which no one has ever asked, for the record, but when they do, I’m going to go, “I am some of the time,” and then just walk away. I’ll also have one arm tucked into my jacket, so they’d be like, maybe that’s the Def Leppard guy.

James: There’s a striking resemblance.

John: Yeah, right? Not at all. Not at all. Well, James, this has been awesome and so much fun. We could go on for hours and hours, but I should probably wrap this up for everyone else. Thank you so much for taking time to be a part of What’s Your “And”? This was really fun.

James: Pleasure. Really enjoyed it, John.

John: Yeah, and everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of James’s travels or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. Don’t forget to check out the book. Audio version’s out now.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 377 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, barnesandnoble.com, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read the book to you, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. It just came out last week. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon, and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Adrian Mayse. He’s the Chair and Associate Professor of the Department of Accounting at Howard University in Washington, DC, and the author of the children’s book, When I Grow Up, I Want to be an Accountant. Now he’s with me here today. Adrian, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Adrian: Thank you, John.

John: This is going to be awesome, man. My dream is when kids say, “I want to be an accountant when I grew up.” Forget astronauts or firefighters. No. Accountant, I’m telling you. You can’t do any of that other stuff without the accounting. You can’t.

Adrian: You can’t.

John: I’m excited to get into that. First, I have my 17 rapid-fire questions that will get to know Adrian on a new level here, so here we go. How about when it comes to puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

Adrian: Crossword.

John: Crossword. Okay, all right. How about more of a talk or text?

Adrian: Text.

John: Text, okay. Yeah, so the podcast is going to be tough. All right. I’m teasing, man. We should just chat back and forth. At the end of 30 minutes, tell everyone, well, that was amazing. How about a favorite color?

Adrian: Blue.

John: Blue. Nice. Mine too. How about a least favorite color?

Adrian: Green.

John: Green. Interesting. Okay, all right. How about a favorite Disney character?

Adrian: Interesting. You got me.

John: There’s a million now.

Adrian: Yeah. The one that came to mind for some reason was Aladdin.

John: Okay. That’s a solid answer, man.

Adrian: No, I had to think about it. I was like, is Aladdin Disney?

John: You know what? I think anything animated, I’ll take. No, that’s a solid answer. Very cool. Very cool. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Adrian: Star Trek.

John: Star Trek. Interesting. All right, all right. How about a computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Adrian: I’m a PC, but I have a Mac that I’m using now. Not my choice.

John: Yeah, I’m a PC guy as well. I don’t know how Macs work. I really don’t. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Adrian: It switches, but I want to say, at this moment, strawberry.

John: Strawberry. Okay, all right. Yeah, you don’t hear that very much, so that’s a good answer. How about a favorite season, summer, winter, spring or fall?

Adrian: Summer.

John: Summer. Okay.

Adrian: I like the heat, but I don’t like — I’m from Mississippi, so I don’t like the Mississippi heat.

John: Oh, boy.

Adrian: But I like the summertime.

John: There you go. All right. How about, oh, since you’re in the Accounting Department, balance sheet or income statement?

Adrian: Hmm.

John: That’s a deep one, right?

Adrian: Yeah.

John: It’s silly and not at the same time.

Adrian: I’m going to go with income statement.

John: Okay. All right. Just show me the numbers. Boom, there it is. Here we go, favorite day of the week.

Adrian: I know what that is not my favorite, but favorite, I’m going to say Saturday.

John: Saturday. Yeah, totally. It’s hard to argue against that one. That’s for sure. How about suit and tie or jeans and a T-shirt?

Adrian: Jeans and T-shirt.

John: Okay. All right, all right. Yeah, didn’t even think twice on that one. Do you have a favorite number?

Adrian: I have two, seven and five. Five was the initial one, and seven came later.

John: Yeah. Is there a reason why?

Adrian: Just seven is the number of completion, Alpha Phi fraternity. We have seven founders.

John: Okay. Yeah, yeah. No, totally, seven’s my number too, but it’s mostly sports-related, I think, yeah, seven and eight. I don’t know why. I think because, alphabetically, that’s where my jersey number always came, as a kid, so I was like, well, I guess these are my numbers. That’s how it works. How about books, audio version, Kindle or real book?

Adrian: Oh, I need a real book. I need a physical copy of the book.

John: Yeah, I’m that way as well. It’s just better for me. I don’t know. The audio version, people kept asking, so you have it now, people. You’re happy now. All right? We’ve got three more. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Adrian: Favorite actress is Phylicia Rashad.

John: Oh, okay. All right. Yeah. That’s awesome. How about an early bird or night owl?

Adrian: I’m getting older, so I’m in the middle of it. I’m going to say it depends.

John: It depends. I’m in the nap level.

Adrian: Yeah.

John: I’m starting to take naps so that I can do both.

Adrian: Yeah.

John: Right? That’s awesome. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Adrian: I have the most amazing puppy. Wait, he’s not a puppy anymore, dog. His name is Guy, and he’ll be turning five on Monday.

John: That’s awesome.

Adrian: He’s terrible in a good way.

John: What kind of dog is he?

Adrian: He’s a Maltese Yorkie.

John: Oh, wow. Okay. That’s awesome, man. Yeah, dogs are great. That’s for sure. Yeah, and it’s all of a sudden now, you’re five years? How’s that possible?

Adrian: Yeah, it was like a couple of years ago.

John: That’s awesome, man. Let’s talk about the book. I love it. I love the title. I love everything about it. Just getting kids to think differently and how accounting is not what they portray on TV shows and movies and whatever people think accountants are. The character in The Office was Kevin.

Adrian: Yeah.

John: It’s like, come on.

Adrian: I was going to say what TV show or what movie, but gotcha.

John: Yeah, yeah. Or just with the stereotype of what people think, it’s like, guy. So, what spurred you to — I mean, you just don’t roll out of bed one day, and I’m going to write a book. I’m sure that there’s some thought that goes into it.

Adrian: Yeah, there was thought that went into it. There are a lot of initiatives that we have in the accounting profession that really only starts at the high school level, and it goes from high school, to college, to industry, CPAs and so forth, but I haven’t seen anything that engaged young children. I was like, there needs to be a children’s book. I had been thinking about it for a while. Actually, there’s another one before mine.

John: Oh, okay.

Adrian: It’s got a little accounting. So, I’m just happy right now to see two books out.

John: Right?

Adrian: Yeah. The purpose was for students to see themselves in the book and to hear about the profession.

John: Literally because there’s a page in there where you can put your picture, right?

Adrian: Yeah.

John: Yeah, which is super cool, man. In my book, there is no place for that. There is no place for you to put your own face. As a kid, that’s cool to be able to visualize it.

Adrian: Yeah, that’s the teacher in me. I was supposed to probably be a K through third grade teacher, but I ran from it. I think this is me connecting back to what I thought I was going to be doing.

John: No, I love it, man. I think that’s really cool. How long did that take?

Adrian: It’s been something I wanted to do for a while. Interestingly, I found the email that I had listed all the things that I wanted to accomplish one day. Generically, I had children’s book, but this was not the idea of…

John: Right?

Adrian: … What is a children’s book. It said, start a business. It said all these different things. So, I started thinking about it. After, the book has evolved to what it is. I started writing in 2019. Then because last year, everything happened with the pandemic, just going back and forth with the illustrator was pretty much the process last year.

John: Yeah.

Adrian: I had a very distinct vision about how I wanted the book to look like, and when I expressed that to her, she took it from there. She did a great job. Yeah, that was the process.

John: No, that’s awesome, man. Yeah. Because writing a book, unless you’ve done it, it’s a journey. It’s a journey. You get other people involved. As long as they get your vision, the vision becomes better than what you even thought, it sounds like, especially with the illustrator.

Adrian: Right. So, two things happened and things just worked together, how I feel how it’s supposed to come together. First thing is that the book is self-published. I just had the experience with my fiancé three years ago, when he self-published his book, so I knew the ins and outs to get it self-published.

It was slightly different because it was a children’s book and there were pictures and illustration, but the person I reached out to, this is her maybe fifth, sixth children’s book. I like what she had did then. When I saw what she did now, I was like, oh, my gosh. When I got it at this time, it was amazing. It wasn’t bad before, but it’s like, oh, my gosh, this is amazing what you’ve done. Yeah, things just happened. I’m just fortunate to know someone that did children’s books and also to have went through that self-publishing process.

John: Right. Yeah. It’s so awesome, man. That’s so awesome. Do you feel like any of that process at all translates to your work at Howard University or in the Accounting Department?

Adrian: Oh, absolutely. It’s really a part of my motivation behind it because, especially as the chair now, all this conversation about how to increase the diversity within the profession. All these things are great. I think all these need to happen, but something’s missing early on. For me, it was the children’s book. To someone else, it may be a puzzle. To someone else, it may be animation. I think those are some of the things that can be done I have tons of ideas that I’m still working on that can be done to expose children. We have so many things in different professions. Even toys, there could be some toys out there that — I mean, I don’t know.

John: Right?

Adrian: Yeah, I’m thinking about that, too. I have something written down, but those are some of the things that they’d be, at least, exposed to.

John: Yeah, because you don’t even know that it’s a thing until maybe it’s too late or something. So, I think that’s fantastic, especially in neighborhoods where being an accountant really isn’t an option, like, I don’t know, an accountant type of thing. It’s cool that that book reaches out to those kids especially, to get them in the mix early.

Adrian: Yeah.

John: That’s awesome. What’s the take? Do you share this with people at work? Hey, I’m writing this book. Here’s how it’s going, and here’s the final product. Or was there a part of you that was like, well, I’ll just maybe keep it on the side and whatever?

Adrian: My process with a lot of things is that, things I’m working on, I think you should keep it to yourself for a moment. Then there’s a time to, okay, I feel like let me share this with my household. It kind of stayed there. When it was released, I have this thing now that I, during COVID, I saved everybody’s text messages in my phone. I want to know who I’ve been engaging with during this time. So it was very easy that the day that it was available, I just had this text message, and I just shouted it out to everybody. I just went through my phone, just sending the same message. They were like, what? You did what? It was all these different responses. When did you do this? You didn’t say anything.

John: Right? We just hung out two months ago, dude. Really?

Adrian: No. We just talked last night.

John: Oh, my God.

Adrian: It was like family members and everything. You did what?

John: Right? The name says, Adrian Mayse, but the text says that you wrote a book. Are you sure or is my phone mixing stuff? Who is this?

Adrian: Someone said, “Is this yours?” I said, “Oh, you didn’t. You didn’t read it.”

John: That’s awesome, man. What was the reaction?

Adrian: The reaction has been great. A lot of people was like, oh, my gosh, you stole my idea. No, I didn’t. You can go ahead and write your children’s book too. That’s been my response. We need more than two.

John: Right, right.

Adrian: It has been good. It’s been great.

John: Yeah, it’s all positive. There’s a part of you that’s like, I probably should have told them six months ago or whatever, but you want to make sure it’s good.

Adrian: It wasn’t that. Sometimes people don’t understand until they see it. I just wanted to — I knew what my intentions were. I had a thought. Let me complete this. Even if the reception wasn’t what it is right now, I still would have been okay because this is what I want to accomplish and what I thought was needed. Versus someone else, you’re telling them and they’re like, “What’s the point in that?” Which I have had that, and I’m thinking like, well, it’s not for you.

John: Right? You’re also not a child. So, there’s that. That’s so true, and that’s something that’s really powerful, what you just said, is instead of, I’m an author, it’s, I enjoy writing. Or I enjoy running, or I enjoy whatever it is. It doesn’t matter if it’s good because it’s for me. I enjoy painting. Are your paintings good? Maybe no. Who cares? So that’s really powerful for people to get that because I think that we get in our own ways in our own head.

Adrian: Talking about more about my friends maybe.

John: Yeah.

Adrian: My friends may be listening to the podcast, so, hey, friends. We did some discussion, after the fact. Oh, you should do A, B, C, and D. I was like, no, I want this to be an enjoyable experience. I need to do this my way and what I feel is right, at the time. All those things are going to come. Just let me sit in it. I don’t want to be about what’s happening. Let things flow as they flow. I make decisions. I make decisions. I don’t want to just push all this out and accept this appearance and this thing. Now, it’s not fun. I wrote it to encourage students to be a part of profession. Also, it was something that I wish I had as a child. Again, it was fun. The conversations I’m having have been fun conversations. I don’t want to ever feel like, oh, I’ve got to do another podcast. I don’t want to feel that way.

John: No, no, I’m with you on that, and I’m trying not to ruin it. No, I’m just joking. I’m teasing.

Adrian: You’re doing great.

John: I’m teasing, man. I’m teasing. You’re exactly right. If it doesn’t bring you joy, and it’s not something that is a creation that you wanted to do, then why am I doing this? I’m the same way. When I speak at conferences or when I wrote my book, when my comedy album came out 10 years ago, it was very much like, what do I want it to be if I was in the audience or if I was a reader? Then write it that way and/or create the thing for that and then hope that I’m not the only one on the planet that thinks that way, but then I’m proud of it. I’ll tell everyone about it then. Where if other people start to mix up your vision, then it’s like, well, now I don’t even want to tell anybody because that’s not what I wanted. So, that’s cool, man. That’s super cool.

Before you got into writing a book, is there another outside-of-work hobby or passion that you enjoy doing?

Adrian: I enjoy singing.

John: Oh, okay.

Adrian: Let me clarify. I enjoy singing, I want to say chorale music, but I like to harmonize. I do not sing normally just by myself as a solo, but I do enjoy singing in groups that we can harmonize.

John: Yeah, like an a cappella sort of a thing?

Adrian: Interestingly enough, I’ve not done a cappella, but I am part of a chorus. It’s called the Gay Men’s Chorus of Washington, DC.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Adrian: It’s like hundreds of us in the chorus.

John: You can’t just — I mean, I’m a terrible singer. I don’t know why. I can play an instrument. I can hear things are out of tune. Then as soon as, noise is coming out of my mouth. Even in church, old ladies, like, “Hey, just stop. It’s cool.” It sounds so bad. When people are like, what do you wish you had a superpower? I wish I could sing and dunk a basketball. That’s all I want in life. They’re like, well, regular people can do that. I’m like, I know, but I can’t. No, that’s awesome, man. That’s really cool. Did you grow up singing?

Adrian: Yes, I grew up in the church, singing, all four years of high school, singing one semester a year in college, and then, yeah, back to church. I was looking for a chorus I could identify with more. That’s why I joined the chorus here. I’ve been part of, two years now.

John: That’s cool, man. That’s so great. That’s so great. It’s a cool outlet, and it’s just something that really lights you up. Because work lights you up sometimes, but sometimes not. Singing, man, every time, that makes you happy. That’s super cool. That’s awesome, man. I can’t wait till we’re past all this so then we can, yeah, stumble into DC and go to a concert.

Adrian: Hey, you can go on YouTube. There’s tons of GMCW videos. We’ve been doing some virtual concerts. They’re on YouTube.

John: That’s awesome. Are you each in your own homes, and you have to harmonize over —

Adrian: Yes, singing over a track, and they do their harmonizing and production, and there we are.

John: That’s awesome, dude. That’s so cool. That’s really cool. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that’s, whether they’re in accounting or engineering or law or whatever white collar nerd job they have — I say that affectionately because I’m also one –where they think, well, I have a hobby, but no one cares, and it has nothing to do with my job?

Adrian: I hear a lot of people say they have their career and then they have their passion. I think those things can be one. Everybody may not be, and that’s okay too. Because some people work is work, and I need my outlet, and that’s my hobby and passion. Some people don’t want those things to merge, but when they do, I think it’s great.

Writing this book, I think I probably have been in the most happiest places I’ve been, as far as even with work now, because I have a renewed focus. So I will say just, try to mostly be aware of what you want to do. There are plenty of opportunities. You don’t know what your passion will look like. Like me, right now, this children’s book, I had no clue what it would look like, but I knew that it would be something one day.

John: Yeah, so just start the journey. Just one step and then another step and then before you know it, you have a children’s book that rocks. Hey, there you go. What do you know? What do you know? Now, I love that advice. That’s awesome. I love too, just hearing how having that outside of work, that “and” lit you up when you were at work, renewed energy and renewed enthusiasm. That’s cool because it’s hard, or rather, it’s easy for us to lose focus of that sometimes. That’s cool, man. Very cool. That’s awesome.

Well, before I wrap this up, it’s only fair that I turn the tables, and the first episode of the Adrian Mayse podcast. Thanks for having me on. I booked myself. I’m all yours, since I fired away at you with my rapid-fire questions at the beginning.

Adrian: All right, first question, what’s your favorite color?

John: Oh, favorite color. Yeah, mine is also blue, all blues. I really just — yeah, I don’t know why. It’s always been blue. The navy blue is great. Royal blue is also solid. Teal’s got a place. Yeah, blue is always good.

Adrian: Yeah, I’m the same way. I don’t know any blue that I don’t like.

John: Right? Yeah, it’s just all good. It’s always good. It’s happy. It’s fun. You can wear it and not — I mean, I can wear it, and it’s good. That might be a factor. I don’t know. It’s just, yeah, blue, for sure.

Adrian: What’s your favorite place to visit in the — well, world?

John: Okay. Yeah, wow. Okay, so probably the coolest place I’ve been in the world is Cape Town, South Africa. Zanzibar is an island in the Indian Ocean, also super cool. Yeah, here in the US, there are so many great places. DC is awesome because the museums and the monuments and the history there. I used to live in New York City. There’s an energy. A favorite, Denver’s pretty awesome. I live there, so I guess I don’t have to visit. Costa Rica is also super cool. If people haven’t been there, that’s definitely worth a trip once we’re allowed to do that. Yeah, I’d probably say, mostly not the US, for some reason. Maybe because I take it for granted, all this stuff that we have that’s awesome here.

Adrian: What’s your favorite season?

John: Fall, easily. It’s, college football happens, the trees are starting to turn colors, and it’s not as hot, but it’s not cold either. Yeah, it’s that. Growing up in Mississippi, I don’t even know how you did it, man. I would have died at three. I would have melted and just disintegrated.

Adrian: We didn’t know any better. That’s all we knew.

John: Yeah, I guess that’s a good point.

Adrian: Oh, wait a minute. What did we do wrong?

John: Right. We’ve all the bugs and everything and the humidity and the heat. It’s like, what? Yeah, fall, for sure.

Adrian: What do you do to decompress, relax?

John: Oh, wow. Yeah. Now, that’s a good question. I love going to concerts when we’re allowed to, for sure. I also picked up rowing during the pandemic. I’m not a rower. I’ve never rowed anything. I’ve never thought of rowing. I never wanted to, but I needed to be exercising, and I hate running. Every time I go running, I’m thinking of everything I should be doing instead of running. I’m just so bored. So, I just picked up rowing and that’s been fun as well because you can get a pretty intense workout in about 20 minutes or so. It’s like, hoo, wow. It’s efficient. I like that part too.

Adrian: What is your favorite food dish?

John: Oh, wow. Yeah. Lasagna is always going to be good. A New York strip steak is always going to be good. Meat and potatoes and vegetables, that’s always going to be good. Yeah, a really good pizza. Oh, man, now I’m starving.

John: But it’s easily, ice cream. I know it’s not a dish, but it should be. Ice cream is my favorite thing always. If anyone’s like, hey, you want to go get ice cream? Yeah. I’m the friend that you don’t want to be around if you’re trying to lose weight, is going to tell you no. I’m going to be like, yeah, totally, we should.

Adrian: This is my last question, I guess.

John: Okay, last one. All right.

Adrian: You mentioned this earlier, but I don’t know if we were talking, about what makes you do the podcast.

John: Oh, wow. Yeah. The podcast started because I had someone remember me, 12 years after I left my first PwC office. I was speaking at a conference, and he says, “I know John Garrett. That’s the guy who did comedy at night,” to the meeting planner. I had no idea who he was because I don’t know taxes, and I never met him or worked with him.

So I just wanted to just shatter the stereotype of what it is to be a successful professional. It’s not all work all the time. It’s, oh, I have other things that I love to do. I’m a part of a choir. I write books. I love college football. I really enjoy horror movies or whatever your thing is. I volunteer. I, whatever. We’re all having these hobbies and passions, and in my research, it’s 92% of us. I don’t know who the 8% are, but whatever, but 92%.

For so long, though, when we grow up, and in high school, in college, and then once we start working; we think, well, if you have something, I mean, God forbid, if you have anything, but if you do, don’t talk about it because you’re not very dedicated to your career, or you’re not good at your job, or whatever these things that professionalism tells us, these lies. It’s the opposite. The more hobbies and passions you have, the less anxiety and depression, the better moral decisions you make. Then you share those hobbies and passions, engagement goes up, retention goes up, all these things.

The stereotypical professional is somebody like you and me, that has other things that light them up, and I think it’s okay to say it out loud. It’s almost mandatory that we say it out loud. That’s why. I just wanted to normalize it. You go through that Instagram feed on What’s Your “And”?, and just a bunch of people smiling. They’re all very, very happy. If I go to their head shots on their website of their business, maybe not, maybe not as much. So, yeah, just shatter that stereotype. Similar to you with the book, just shatter that stereotype of what it is. I love it, man.

This has been so much fun, man. I appreciate you taking time to be a part of What’s Your “And”?, Adrian.

Adrian: Thank you.

John: If you want to see some pictures of Adrian or link to the book or connect with him on social media, definitely check out the book for kids you know, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there, and while you’re on the page, please click that big button and do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. Don’t forget to check out the book. Audio version’s out now.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 375 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what this show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, barnesandnoble.com, Bookshop and a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes into a lot more in depth in the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon, and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. If you like my voice, the audio version is coming very soon.

Don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the interesting stories from each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Ben Loggins. He’s an owner at Logins, Kern and McCombs, just outside of Atlanta, and now he’s with me here today. Ben, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Ben: No problem, John. It’s great to be here.

John: This is going to be so much fun, so much fun. I have some rapid-fire questions, get to know Ben right out of the gate here. I’ll start you with an easy one, I think. Favorite color.

Ben: Baby blue.

John: Baby Blue. Okay. All right. How about a least favorite color?

Ben: Black is just darkness. I prefer not to be in the darkness and black, yeah.

John: Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. How about, do you have a favorite adult beverage?

Ben: Pretty much just beer. I like Sam Adams. Sam Adams lager is what I like right now.

John: There you go. That works. How about Sudoku or crossword puzzles?

Ben: I really don’t do either one.

John: All right, fair enough. Fair enough. Well, you’re out there researching UFOs. You don’t have time for that stuff. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Ben: Well, the actor right now, I like the Rock, certainly Tom Hanks and Robin Williams. As far as actress, probably Sandra Bullock, and you go back in time to Sally Field. The one thing I ask people too, do you remember The Graduate movie come out in 19 — when it came out, I was 18 when it came out in 1968, and I thought Miss Robinson was so old. I saw her recently now. She looks so young. I’m figuring out the differences. Same movie, how could she look so much younger now than she did 50 years ago?

John: That’s hilarious. Who knows? We don’t know what they’re doing with movies. Or we’re getting older. One of the two.

Ben: That’s right.

John: How about when you were in gym class in school, favorite activity?

Ben: Gee, I’d probably say running if I said something. Yeah.

John: All right, fair enough. How about, are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Ben: A little bit more of an early bird. I’m a little bit older now, so I kind of give out, come the evenings. Certainly, I get up early in the morning and do what little exercise I’m going to do and stuff, so it’s early bird.

John: There you go. All right. How about when it comes to books, real book, Kindle or an audio version?

Ben: I like real books still. It’s just the old school kind of thing that I’m used to.

John: Yeah, same to me. Yeah, to feel it and all that. Since you have the accounting background, favorite number?

Ben: I would probably say number eight or something like that. There’s really not any specific reason, but number eight.

John: Eight? Yeah, that’s a good number. It’s very symmetrical and so I like it. That’s a good one. How about a favorite movie of all time?

Ben: Favorite movie of all time. I don’t know. I most certainly like most of the Star — I’ll just say Star Wars. That’ll be fine.

John: Star Wars. Okay, yeah. No, that’s a great one because I was going to ask you next, Star Wars or Star Trek.

Ben: Star Trek. Star Trek was more of a — they had a different thing every week on their stuff. Of course I was there when it was the originally shown, so I’m remembering well. It was great to watch every week, so I enjoyed both of them.

John: Okay. That’s awesome. Very cool. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Ben: PC. I’m doing this today on my Surface.

John: Oh, yeah. Travel with one of those is fantastic. Super lightweight, really thin. Fantastic. How about a favorite ice cream flavor? I love ice cream.

Ben: Probably Oreo.

John: Oh, there you go. How about season, favorite season, summer, winter, spring or fall?

Ben: Probably fall because spring is too much tax season. Summer gets a little hot, and the fall is kind of nice. Yeah, it would be fall.

John: Yeah. Well, especially down in Georgia, yeah, summer is pretty hot.

Ben: My kid and my wife would always complain during the spring. Oh, spring break, dad, where are we going to go? No, we’re not going nowhere. I’m working. The way it always was.

John: That’s hilarious. That’s funny. How about balance sheet or income statement?

Ben: Probably balance sheet. Shows you the picture. Income statement is a moving target. It’s a little bit harder to see. The balance sheet can show you a picture of time.

John: Fair enough. Fair enough. Chocolate or vanilla.

Ben: Probably vanilla.

John: Vanilla? All right, and last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Ben: Well, I built a new house about five years ago, so it would probably be my house. I built it custom, just exactly the way I want it, and I really enjoy it.

John: That’s fantastic, man. That’s very, very cool. Let’s talk UFOs. How’d you get into that? Has it been a lifelong thing?

Ben: Well, no. I tell people that we’re here on Earth for one reason is to raise good kids, so I believe in supporting my child. Early on, she was an ice skater, so I did ice skating with her for about 10 years. I was on the Governing Council of the United States Figure Skating Association, did a bunch of stuff there.

Then in the early 2000s, she took a liking to a TV show called Roswell. It was about some teenagers that had converted to the aliens, and she was, I don’t know, caught up. She did some blogging for them. They hired her to do some stuff. She said, “Dad, I’d really like to go to Roswell, learn about their original thing.”

Every summer, either the last week of June or first week of July, they have a festival. Anybody who’s interested, it would be a great thing to go to. About, I don’t know, five or 10,000 people show up to talk about UFOs, their experience with UFOs. We went to that. Now we’ve been to that three times, and the last time we went out there, went on a dig of a crash site. My daughter and I and a bunch of people from MUFON did a dig at a crash site.

John: Where they say a UFO crashed?

Ben: Well, the crash site. The question, was it a UFO or not? There certainly was debris, and no one questions the site and the crash. It’s about, I don’t know, maybe 70 miles north of Roswell, out in the high desert. I don’t know how high it is, but we were there in October and, boy, it was cold wind. It was a desert. Again, it’s in high desert. It was interesting.

First time we went out there in ‘04, I was kind of novice at that point in time. You go to this novice seminars. You get people. You go to their seminars. One person talking about being able to meditate and talk to aliens in their head. Another person, you go to another seminar, and it’s theologians arguing about the UFOs and the Bible, and there are comments about UFOs in the Bible. They argued about that and go back to the Hebrew Bible. Really interesting to see the different people.

At that time, I built a friendship with some of the people in charge out there, mainly with Don Schmitt, and Tom Carey who, Don’s probably the number one Roswell UFO person now. He’s on TV. Any time doing a show, he’s on it. Bonded with him. I also met Edgar Mitchell, the sixth man to walk on the moon. He spoke to a group. After speaking, my wife and daughter and I went out and had supper. He walked in by himself, so we, “Come over and have dinner with us.”

John: Oh, wow, that’s awesome.

Ben: It’s not many times you get to meet the sixth man to walk on the moon.

John: Right, or any of them.

Ben: Interesting fellow. In 2005, I love to public speak. Back in my initial career, I was at IRS. I was an IRS agent then I was an IRS classroom — they taught me how to be a classroom instructor, and I really enjoyed public speaking. I’ve probably given a UFO presentation maybe 40 times, mainly to Kiwanis clubs and rotary clubs and things like that. So, I did a video. I know you’ve got the link. You put up the link.

John: Yeah, I have it up on the show page for everybody.

Ben: They want to go see my presentation. It’s really been interesting to see the people and meet the UFO experts. We met Travis Walton. Now, Travis in, I don’t know, ‘78 or sometime, he was abducted on an alien craft for five days. They did a movie about his stuff. It’s called Fire in the Sky. You go look at that movie about Travis, but Travis, he’s an interesting fellow. We had dinner with him one night. I think that was in ‘12. That would have been in ‘12. Interesting people. That’s a great thing to go if someone has interest in UFOs at all.

John: That’s cool. So, it all just started because your daughter was watching the show, Roswell, and just doing some research on it. Then it was like, well, let’s go there and see what it’s all about.

Ben: That’s exactly how it got started.

John: That’s amazing. What is the dig? I’m guessing in my head, but what is it actually? Because I imagine it’s a decent-sized area.

Ben: Well, it is. The debris was scattered over an area of about three football fields. The dig, we went up there — I think I put a couple of pictures in since YouTube — they plotted out in squares and then they go over it with metal detectors, square by square, trying to find things. Here it is, 50 years later. We found a few anomaly materials that they sent off to be inspected. I’ve never heard a report back of what they found, but it was a fun thing. It was about 40 people there and going over it. Some of the people were MUFON peoples from Arizona. They had been there at the time that the Phoenix Lights had occurred and stuff. It was really interesting event, to be there for those three days.

John: Yeah, that’s amazing. I imagine it’s not just those three days. It carries on throughout the rest of the year, where you’re doing some research or reading about it or —

Ben: I’m doing research. I like to watch the things on TV that come up about it, needless to say. The actual movie they did which is called, Roswell, is really good. Martin Sheen is the main character in that. It’s an excellent depiction of what occurred. I know Don Schmitt was one of the background people to give them context, so that’s a great movie of what happened. It’s really interesting to see.

On my video, typically when I do my presentations, I think it’s 22 minutes long, but there’s about 12 or 15 minutes of embedded videos from eyewitness people, to people who talked to eyewitness people to hear their stories. It’s hard to go out there and immerse yourself in the history of what happened and talk to all these people and not believe something pretty odd happened. It wasn’t just a weather balloon.

John: Right.

Ben: I know that Don Schmitt and Tom wrote a book where they interviewed probably, I don’t know, 20, 30 people and have their testimony. Of course you’re looking at, when we went out to the dig, it would have been in ‘13, so it would have been, what, 55 years after the crash. Even then, the people were beginning to die off that had direct involvement. Now it’s 75 years after the crash, one of the people we talked to was Frankie Rowe, who was involved. Her dad went out to the crash and met the alien characters, and she tells about that. We interviewed her on my little video there.

Now you’re looking at it, later and later, so the people are beginning to die off. Less eye witness people and more of the secondary people is really what’s there now, but still great time to go to the festival. Again, Roswell festival, UFO festival, might come up with that on — I don’t know how it went this summer with the COVID and everything, probably messed them up. Still, it’s a great event.

John: That’s fantastic, and you accidentally have dinner with an astronaut.

Ben: Right. It was great, yeah.

John: Cool things, plus it just broadens your perspective, and it’s all kinds of people that are there, I imagine, all backgrounds. It’s not just one type of person. You have a variety of people that are all coming together to learn more and to talk more and discuss.

Ben: It’s not just Roswell. They had a seminar one night on crop circles. Now that was really interesting. The context is crop circles are like, you look at hurricanes and tornadoes, it’s like the Earth burping and comes up with a crop circle. It’s very similar thing to how tornadoes occur. Well, they’re odd atmospheric things. The same thing with this, the Earth burping, so to speak, and causing your crop circles. It’s interesting to see it.

Other people talking about other alien things. There was one there with a Starbaby, had a skull from a half-alien, half-human hybrid that they found way back when. It’s called the Starbaby is what his book was about. Lloyd Pye wrote that. It’s interesting to see all these different people and their different perspectives on alien culture and UFO culture.

John: That is interesting. Do you feel like any of this translates to work at all? Part of me thinks that your IRS background, clearly, getting into the nitty-gritty and researching and all that, there’s some parallel there.

Ben: Maybe a little bit. When I go and give my speech, I get a call from a rotary club and they’ll say, “Oh, we want you to come and speak.” They have accountants in their club. I’ll tell them, nobody hires me as their accountant from this talk.

John: Right?

Ben: I love to speak. I get power from speaking to groups, and I love to public speak. I do it more for fun than I do, certainly, to get clients. Although I do a lot of speaking too, on accounting stuff, to get clients, but this presentation is a pure fun thing that I do.

John: Absolutely, but sometimes there’s accidentally a skill or a mindset or something that’s a muscle that you’re exercising outside of work that then when you get to work, or it’s talking about it at work. Is it something that you do discuss with coworkers or clients?

Ben: Oh, yeah. The coworkers all know how I feel. The first time I came back in ‘04, they had a party for me. I think I sent you a couple pictures of me. They did a jello UFO baby, and I was supposed to dissect it and stuff. The employees really enjoyed it. A lot of my friends think it’s interesting. I tell people, anytime, you hear the full 22-minute story, then you say, geez, the government is lying to us, so you come away knowing that government lying to us. Of course, that’s pretty easy to convince you the government lies to you. We know they lied to us about tons of stuff.

John: Right, right. Exactly. Exactly.

Ben: They say, why won’t they disclose it? I say, well, if you had some technique to turn paper into gold, would you want to tell everybody how to do that? No. You will keep it for yourself to keep it valuable. The government’s supposed to be reverse engineering all this stuff at Area 51. It’s really very interesting.

John: No, no, it is, and it’s something to talk about besides work when you’re at work.

Ben: Oh, yeah.

John: How important do you think it is that people have an outside-of-work interest to bring to the office or to enhance their career at all?

Ben: Well, it certainly broadens their flexibility and their knowledge of things by having outside. A lot of people, and certainly when my daughters were young, it was more focused around her. She got older, then we got into these other things. A lot of people have children. I tell people that, look, children are the most important thing. I’ve got my 17 employees. I think six of them have been with me for 35 years just because —

John: Wow.

Ben: I say, look, we’ve got flexibility. If your kids have a ballgame, go be with your kid. Do whatever you need to, for your kid. As long as the work gets done, that’s all I care about. So employees have stayed with me for a long time because they enjoy the work environment and the flexibility. Not so much the UFO stuff. That’s not a big part of the work environment. Although I do have books on the shelves behind me showing — talking about UFO. If someone he wants to talk about it, I’ll certainly talk about it.

There’s a lot of wild theories out there as to how the Earth came to be and how the UFOs caused it. The Ancient Aliens talk a lot about it too, on the TV series on the History Channel. It’s all interesting. I do find it interesting as to how the aliens have influenced our society and how we’ve gotten to where we are. It’s interesting.

John: No, it really is. I think what’s really crucial, especially with, literally, your name on the door, is that it humanizes you, whether it’s the ice skating, or it’s the UFO thing. I think it’s cool that you came back from that first trip, and they had a party. That’s awesome. Imagine if every single employee of every place you work, if you went on a trip somewhere for something that really lights you up, and you came back, and they had a party themed for that. That’d be awesome. It’s like, wow, my people care.

Ben: It was awesome. We try to bring fun into the work environment, so the employees can get enjoyment out of it and certainly feel like the workers are their friends, not just their coworkers, and not having those petty things you have between a lot of employees. I don’t feel like we have any of those. Of course right now, it’s me and 15 women. So, again, it’s different.

John: Right, different dynamic.

Ben: Different dynamic, that’d be the way to say it. Still, they’re great employees, and I love all of them.

John: That’s cool to hear. You genuinely care about them, and they genuinely care about you. That’s the thing that I feel professionalism kind of prevents. It makes us more two-dimensional. No one cares about your ice skating or whatever. It’s like, no, they do. They do care.

Ben: It’s great to have that where the employees care about each other and want each other to be the most — couple of employees, I’ve helped them find other jobs because they maxed out where I was. I said, look — they weren’t CPAs, they were clerical staff — I said, look, this is as high as you can come here. They agreed, so I helped them find other jobs somewhere else where they can do more. It’s more about caring about that person. I want them to be all they can be, rather than just care about how much profit I carry home.

John: Yeah. I love that so much, so much. That’s so fantastic. Do you have any big takeaways for people listening or words of encouragement for somebody that has a hobby that they think, well, it has nothing to do with my job and no one’s going to care about it?

Ben: Well, you need to broaden your horizons and have these outside hobbies and interests, certainly. Most of my employees have something on the side, either their young kids or their work kids. Some of them play musical instruments and play in little bands and stuff. Again, it’s a matter of finding something out there to do that brings you fulfillment in life, and certainly something that you can do when you get older, when you retire.

I tell people too, they need a calling in life. When you retire or when you cut back, you need to feel like you’re still a value to society. You need to be bringing some kind of value into society. Otherwise, you get to the point where you just feel like there’s no value to it anymore, and why are you here? So, it’s important to have your life well-rounded enough to be able to enjoy these other pieces of life.

John: Yeah, what a great tip. That’s something that I didn’t realize when I was speaking on this for the first couple of years and then started doing some consulting with organizations and then had an executive pull me aside and say, “I’m supposed to retire in three years, and I don’t know what I’m going to go do.” That’s when it hit me. What? I was thinking of while you’re working, how it enhances the culture and engagement and retention but, man, after you retire, you have to have, like you said, a sense of purpose and something to go to.

Ben: My dad retired at 57. He was a postman. The next 25 years, he just played his guitar every day, old folks home, anybody listening to him. Again, and they enjoyed it. It’s a matter of you feeling value to society and you bring that value to, no matter if it’s just delivering Meals on Wheels or doing something, so that you feel like there’s a need for you to be here.

John: I love that. I love that so much, so, so much. Well, this has been so much fun, Ben. It’s only fair that before I bring this in for a landing, that I turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Ben Loggins podcast. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, I’m all yours. Fire away.

Ben: John, what do you think about UFOs? Do you feel like there are really aliens that come to visit us? Or what are your thoughts on UFO?

John: You know, I watched your video, and there’s no doubt in my mind that the government would lie to us about something like that. It also wouldn’t surprise me if there was something that was bigger and better and more sophisticated than us, another living something. It is hard to believe that we would be the only ones in the entire universe that are. I’m sure that there’s something out there that’s living. Whether or not they’re abducting us or they’re whatever, it’s hard for me to say. You can tell in the conviction from the people on your video that, wow, yeah, something happened. That’s for sure.

Ben: One of the theories is they’re abducting women and steal their eggs and abducting men and take their sperm and make hybrid creatures.

John: Interesting.

Ben: Travis Walton talks about the different kind of creatures he came in contact when he spent five days on the alien craft. So, really interesting to see, and you don’t know. Again, it’s a theory. To me, if you go to Roswell for that festival, you meet all these characters that have been abducted or done something. I certainly suggest, if you enjoy that kind of thing, it’s a side trip to make.

John: For sure. It’s one of those things where there’s definitely something bigger. It’s hard to say definitely not because there are so many possibilities out there that, yeah, it wouldn’t surprise me at all. I just hope that they’re friendly.

Ben: You hope they’ll come back to eat us all. I mean, that’s really what you hope.

John: Yikes. Right? Exactly.

Ben: There was a movie made a few years ago called Super 8. Have you ever seen that one?

John: I didn’t see that one. No.

Ben: Super 8 is a story, loosely, on moving the alien from Wright-Patterson to Area 51 back in the ‘50s. They had this great video, and they were making some videos. An alien escaped and ravaged this little town and tried to gut people to use them as food as he returned home or something. Really interesting movie. The question is, are they going to be like us, or are they going to be like Independence Day? Because that —

John: Oh, wow. Yeah.

Ben: Area 51 is right about that, and that’s where you see in the film. What are the aliens going to be like when they come back and forth? I don’t know.

John: I prefer the ET version, the chill and just super friendly and his heart is glowing. It’s like, all right. The bad thing with that is I’m sure that humans would wreck it. Because in that movie, it was people trying to kill him and get him, so I don’t know. Or even like a Men in Black. Those were pretty fun. Or like the Cantina from Star Wars. They’re all fun too.

Ben: Right.

John: Just the comedy brain in me makes me want to make them fun and interesting and lovable.

Ben: I saw somewhere on the… I forget where I saw the… I think it was on the internet today. Somewhere in Iowa has a headstone that says, Captain Kirk, born here in 2024 or whatever. So, it’s supposed to be his hometown, where he’s going to be born in 2024 to start Star Trek.

John: Oh, wow. Yeah, and that’s coming up.

Ben: Yeah.

John: It’s like those Back to the Future years and those — when those movies came out, it was so far in the future, and it’s like, we’ve already passed that. Hoverboards happened, like in those movies.

Ben: Yeah. You go back far enough and of course when you’re my age, you read 1984 in the late ‘60s. Oh, gee, this is never going to be the case. They ain’t got the surveil everybody, know everything. We’re almost there now.

John: We’re there.

Ben: It won’t take us long to get to there.

John: They’re listening to us right now, Ben.

Ben: I don’t doubt it. I don’t doubt it.

John: I appreciate you being a part of this. It was so much fun talking with you. I’m excited to be able to cross paths sometime when we’re traveling again. Thanks so much, Ben.

Ben: Let me know when you want to go to Roswell for the festival. I’m going to meet up with you out there. Okay?

John: That sounds awesome.

Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Ben and his travels and what he’s seeing or connect with him on social media and check out that link to his video of him speaking, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. Don’t forget to check out the book. Audio version’s coming soon.

Thanks again for subscribing to the podcast on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 373 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon, and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Leslie Ehm. She’s the Swagger Coach at Combustion Training, as well as a speaker and author of the book, Swagger, available for pre-order right now, and she’s with me here today. Leslie, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Leslie: This is a whole new kind of fun podcast treat for me because I get to talk about something other than the whole Swagger thing, although I want to talk about the Swagger thing, but I get to talk about the “And”.

John: Exactly, the other side of how you made it through writing the book. I have my rapid-fire questions, get to know Leslie on a new level here, right out of the gate. I’ll start you out with an easy one, favorite color.

Leslie: Black.

John: Black. Okay. All right, how about a least favorite color?

Leslie: Kind of like a poopy brown.

John: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, that’s gross. Yeah, yeah. I get that one a lot, that brown that’s almost purple, where it’s like, well, how’s that possible? That’s weird. I’m glad you didn’t say yellow or pink since the cover of your book is yellow and pink. That’s awesome. How about cats or dogs?

Leslie: Oh, dogs.

John: Dogs. Yeah, yeah, me too. Absolutely. Do you have a favorite actor or actress?

Leslie: Oh, boy, I don’t know. To look at, for my eye, I’d have to say someone like Paul Rudd or Robert Downey, Jr. I think that you get my type from that.

John: Okay.

Leslie: Oh, Tom Hanks. Tom Hanks, too. My husband looks like a combination of Paul Rudd and Tom Hanks.

John: Nailed it. That’s awesome. Good for him. Good for him and you. Would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

Leslie: I used to be a night owl. Now, I’m too old and tired, so I’m an obscenely early bird these days in COVID times. Now, it’s 4:46.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Leslie: Oh, yeah, it’s brutal. It’s horrible. Yeah, don’t do it, totally.

John: Wow. Okay. How about more talk or text?

Leslie: I’m a talker, but I have to say that, again, in these days of limited energy, I text a lot.

John: No, it’s just faster and get to the point. Although if there’s three back-and-forths, then I’m calling you because I’m like, I don’t know why we’re doing this right now.

Leslie: Your thumbs get tired. I have thumb fatigue. I really do. I have little tiny fingers, so I’m really good with the texting, but I do — I have experienced thumb fatigue.

John: That’s funny. How about puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

Leslie: Oh, crossword. Sudoku, no. You could give me a Sudoku and say, “You have six hours to finish it,” and I will be crying after an hour. Then you’ll have to pull me out from under the desk in order to complete it. It’s not happening.

John: That’s hilarious.

Leslie: But I’ll kick your butt in a crossword. Don’t Scrabble me.

John: Don’t Scrabble you. No, no.

Leslie: Tone down.

John: Totally. All right, how about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Leslie: Star Wars.

John: Okay. Yeah, me too.

Leslie: I have to say. Yeah. It’s more epic.

John: Yeah. Oh, totally. Your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Leslie: Mac, Mac, Mac, Mac, forever.

John: Okay.

Leslie: Yeah. As soon as Macs were available, I owned a Mac. I’m old school Mac.

John: Yeah, like the 2e or whatever it was, with the little floppy disk.

Leslie: No, I bought the one with the handle. Remember?

John: Yes.

Leslie: The one with the handle, and it had the color surround on it. I was the coolest person on the planet with my so-called portable Mac.

John: Right.

Leslie: Only seven pounds but it had a handle. That was portable, and it had the friendly Mac face on it.

John: Exactly. No, I remember that. Absolutely. That’s awesome. How about a favorite ice cream flavor? I love ice cream.

Leslie: I would like, please, to have two scoops. Can I please have a scoop of the pistachio but real legit, not the bright green crapola that you — the fakie one.

John: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Leslie: Then I would like a double chocolate mocha fudge with chunks of chocolate fudgy chunkiness, but not marshmallows. Do not besmirch my ice cream with a marshmallow. It is not acceptable.

John: Don’t rocky road me.

Leslie: No, don’t rocky road me. Just keep me mainstream. I want a mainline chocolate.

John: There you go. I like it. I like it. Here’s a good one, summer, spring, fall or winter.

Leslie: I’m Canadian. It’s got to be fall.

John: Yeah, I was going to say.

Leslie: You don’t get your Canada badge without loving fall. I hate the winter, hate, hate the fashion. I do not believe anyone should be outside. I do not want the extremities should ever experience the tingling of frostbite. I think it’s unacceptable. I’d also don’t like to have a full body sweat, butt crack sweat with —

John: Oh, yeah, yeah. Right, in summer, yeah.

Leslie: — running down and pooling in your butt crack, unacceptable as well.

John: It is in there.

Leslie: Yeah. I like the cool breeze of fall. I like the crunching of the leaves. I like the beam with the colors, yeah, all day long.

John: Yeah, I’m a fall as well on that one, for sure. How about chocolate or vanilla?

Leslie: Chocolate. Who wants vanilla?

John: You just have vanilla so you can put chocolate on it and then make a chocolate…

Leslie: The vanilla exists so you can talk about how you are so not vanilla.

John: Oh, yeah.

Leslie: It’s like a baseline of mediocrity. Prepare ourselves to why nobody or anything, no human, no flavor, no experience, no anything should ever be vanilla. It is the definition. It’s the flavor of mediocrity.

John: That’s awesome. Here’s a good one, favorite adult beverage.

Leslie: Well, I’ve given up the booze. I would have said the bourbon or the red wine. Now, I found this alcohol-free beer. That is the best thing on the planet because I never drank beer before even when I was drinking because it’s like eating a sandwich. It had 60 billion calories, 957 carbs, and you just wanted to burp up all day long. I found this incredible — ooh, plug for this great alcohol-free beer called Partake. It tastes like drinking a Corona or that kind of refreshing beer, but it has 15 freaking calories and 2 carbs.

John: Oh, wow.

Leslie: Yeah, and it comes in a whole bunch of different — like a stout and a pale and a thing and whatever. I like the blonde. Yeah, if you, like me, have said COVID has put you off alcohol forever, you too can experience the fun and frivolity of drinking a fake beer or an AF beer as it’s known.

John: Oh, alcohol-free, AF beer.

Leslie: That’s my adult beverage now.

John: Awesome. No, I love it. How about a favorite number?

Leslie: 27.

John: Is there a reason?

Leslie: I don’t really remember. Since I was a little kid, it was my favorite number, and it just stayed with me.

John: Yeah, why not? No, no, it’s a unique one. I was like, wow. All right, how about when it comes to books, audio, Kindle or real book?

Leslie: Okay, real book, for sure, for sure, for sure. Although, we bought a cottage, which means there’s a two-hour schlep in the traffic, and whenever I’m by myself, I listen to audio books. I profoundly love them. It’s like being a little kid and having someone read stories to you, so I’m a big, big, big fan of audio books. Interestingly, I choose my audio books by the reader. When I find a reader that I love, like a voice talent, I will then research what other books has this person read, and I’ll give them a go.

John: That’s interesting.

Leslie: So fantastic, the audio books, it’s amazing. Someone who could do five characters convincingly just blows my mind.

John: Yeah, when I recorded mine, it was hilarious because they had this voice coach Skype in, and I have 41 quotes from people from the podcast. These aren’t fictional characters, though. These are people I know. He’s like, oh, just do a British accent or just do — no. I know you. You’re going to come find me and punch me in the face because that’s terrible. So, yeah, we decided on a happy medium of just a different John Garrett voice because I was like, I can’t do that. The fictional books and the voices that people can do is amazing, and to flip back and forth.

Leslie: If you want to have a good time, if you’ve never listened to the Harry Potter books on audio, that is just a thing to do. Because, I think it’s Alan, oh, God, what’s his last name? That’s so bad that I can’t remember. He’s British, and he’s amazing, Alan someone, bad me. His mastery of those characters, because there’s so many characters, and every single one has a distinctive voice. It’s exceptional. It’s exceptional.

John: That is amazing. All right, we’ve got two more, two more here. How about pens or pencils?

Leslie: I do like a good pencil, but it has to be a firm 2B, proper, good pencil. I don’t like the little skinny minis. I don’t like the ones that are light. I like the ones that are almost pen-like. With pen, it’s got to be a rock solid ballpoint. I don’t like those little skinny mini markers. I don’t like those newfangled inky ones. I like so much so that I will buy those good ballpoints in bulk.

John: Yeah.

Leslie: Yeah, I buy them in bulk. So, there’s the thing about my writing utensils.

John: That’s awesome. No, no, I knew you’d have a favorite. That’s for sure. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Leslie: Wow. I don’t know if you could say have or own about your children, but I like them, and my husband too. I think the people that I have are my favorite things because everything else doesn’t matter. If I think about, God forbid, there was a fire in my house, what would I grab?

John: Your husband.

Leslie: I would grab my people and my dog. Everything else can just burn up, and I could survive. So, I would have to say my people. I couldn’t survive without my people.

John: Yeah. No, no, that’s such a great answer. It’s such a great answer. Let’s talk boxing. This is awesome. First boxer on What’s Your “And”? I’m excited about this, and just to learn about it as well. How did you get started in boxing?

Leslie: Well, I’ve always been a fan of boxing. I’d always wondered what it would be like to box. Because I’m pretty fearless, so I was never worried about, people say, oh, I could never box because you get punched in the face and all the rest of it. That part of it didn’t scare me. I’ve also never been a big, sporty sporty girl. It’s just never been my jam. I mean, I rode horses when I was a kid, and I never was truly in my body. I never felt the strength of my body, and I’ve always been strong. So, I had a friend who had started boxing. I thought, you know what, I think I should try and do this. I was 48 at the time.

John: Oh, wow.

Leslie: I should try this. I call this local boxing gym, and I got really lucky because it just happened to be female-owned, it happened to be very close to my house, and it happened to have the best people on the planet. I went along and did an introductory lesson with a coach named Virgil, who I fell profoundly in love with after the first session.

After one boxing lesson, I went home, and that night, I dreamed about it. I dreamed about it again, and I dreamed about it again. I thought, oh, my God, I think I might be a boxer. That was the beginning of a deep profound love that superseded many, many, many things for years to come. That was the beginning of it. There are crazy stories. I have crazy stories to tell you about where that led and how that impacted me, but that was the beginning of it.

John: Yeah. No, that’s awesome. Is it mostly training or… You’ve gotten in the ring and punched some people.

Leslie: Yeah.

John: It’s not just the training side of it.

Leslie: I don’t want to put anybody off boxing who’s listening, especially women who say, oh my God, I would never want anyone to punch me in the face. You can learn how to box and enjoy the sport 100% without ever getting into the ring or without ever sparring for real. You can fake spar. You can get top sparring.

In boxing, it’s not about how hard you hit someone or how hard they hit you. It’s about whether they can connect with you. Because it’s not about — I mean, yeah, when you’re in the ring and you’re trying to win, you wear somebody down by the impact of your punches, but the points are not scored for how hard you hit somebody. Just the fact that you were able to connect with him, that’s how it works.

Yes, on the higher levels and all the rest of it, you do want to throw snappy punches and wear the other person down because it takes energy to absorb a punch, right. It breaks people’s defenses down, and they try and cover themselves up. It’s a strategic tool, but you don’t have to do that.

I didn’t spar for at least a year and a half, when I was learning, if not, maybe even longer. I learned the technique of boxing, and I fell in love with the strategic aspect of it, the mind-body aspect. It is very philosophical. If you are trained by a great trainer, you get so much more of a deeper understanding of what this is about. It’s really like playing chess with your body.

John: Oh, wow. Yeah.

Leslie: That’s how I see it. It’s every move has a countermove. Everywhere you place your hands or your feet have a reason and a rationale. Everything is there to outsmart your opponent and to anticipate what’s going to happen next. One of the things that — I’m not going to blow it now because you’re going to ask me about things that I learned, which I’ll go into that, but it really taught me so much about the nature of strategy that applies to so much more in life.

When I had been boxing for a year and a half or whatever, my gym actually, they’re the founder of an event called Fight To End Cancer. Every year, they put together a fight team of 10 people who fight each other, so, five opponents, five opponents. You train as an Olympic-style boxer for six months, culminating in fighting at a black tie event with 900 people present.

During that time, you not only train, but you raise money to support Princess Margaret Cancer Hospital, which is one of the premier cancer hospitals in the world. So, after boxing for a year and a half, I thought, why not me? I want this. I put my hand up, and I made the team. I made the fight team. So, I had this experience which was absolutely life-changing.

John: 900 people, that is a lot of people. That’s crazy, and I love how you said it. There’s the philosophy of it as well, and the training. You have to be in mind and body shape, really. People that think they’re in shape, it’s like, well, go train for boxing for, I don’t know, three times and get back to me.

Leslie: Oh, yeah. That was something that I also loved was understanding just what my body was capable of. I never thought that I would be able to develop the kind of strength and stamina required because you don’t just train to box. You have to do a lot of physical training besides that.

When I was training for the fight, I was in the gym, probably three or four hours a day, on top of working, on top of being a parent, on top of running my company and my family and all the rest of it. It’s like when you ask a busy person to do something, and somehow they find a three, four-hour window. You become completely obsessed. I was doing 15, 16 three-minute-rounds on the bag. That was part of my —

John: Oh, my gosh.

Leslie: Yeah, it’s hardcore. It’s hardcore.

John: I don’t know if I could just hold my hands up for three minutes, let alone go punch something for three minutes.

Leslie: Well, it’s not boxing training until you’ve barfed in the railing at least once, and you keep going. That’s how it is.

John: I feel like that should apply to all corporate jobs. It’s not taxes unless you’ve barfed in the office.

Leslie: You go over to the garbage can. You have give a quick heave, and you go back.

John: Right, right. Get back in there. Get back in there.

Leslie: Get back in the ring. You can do it.

John: You have your coach in the corner that squirts water in your mouth. Get back in there. All right.

Leslie: I can remember so vividly when I started training, just regular boxing. I was doing these drills, and I was throwing — my coach, Virge, would say, okay, 10 one-twos. Okay, now 20. Now 30. Now 40. Now 50. Psychologically, you’re saying, okay, all right, I’m going to be able to do 50. It’s going to be great. Then you throw your 50 one-twos after you’ve thrown your 10, 20, 30, 40.

John: Right, and that adds up.

Leslie: I did it. Then you go into 60. Then you start to have a little flutter in your chest to panic. Then it’s 70. Then it’s 80. You go, I know where this is going. I know where this is going. Your brain is saying, I can’t do it, I can’t do it. Now, you can’t say to Virge, “I can’t do it.” so you just keep doing it. Then you get to 100, and you go, “I did it.” Then he goes, back down to one now, and you go from 100 to one.

It’s unfathomable that you’ve left your body. You’re separate from the rest of you. The whole time, as you’re counting down, you’re thinking, oh, my God, I’m doing this. Oh, my God, I’m doing it. Oh, my God. That was the theme of my entire boxing career, was, oh, my God, I’m doing this. I’m doing this. When you take your first good, solid punch in the face and you go, that wasn’t so bad. I’m doing this. I’m doing this.

John: No, I love it. I feel like that’s the whole message of Swagger is I’m doing this. It’s going out on a limb and being like, I’m still alive. I’m still supported, and I’m upright. We’re still doing this, which I think is great.

Leslie: Fighters need the ability to manifest who you really are and hold onto it in the face of all of that psychological crap that’s going to come forward, regardless of situation or environment. Anything that requires courage or that requires strength and that you will not allow to be diminished or weakened by your external environment, that’s what Swagger is. Part of what I had to deal with in that journey, especially that journey to getting into the ring on that night, required me to have such clarity of truth, intention and self-belief. I had to be all in, and I had to be unchanged by my environment. Because, believe me, it’s pretty freaking intimidating to get into the ring in front of people cheering, and you’re putting so much pressure on yourself.

I’m someone who has been on stage. I’ve been on camera. I was a TV host for years. I am not daunted by a crowd, but I have never been so jacked and so focused and so in my body and out of my body at the same time. It was a pretty surreal experience. It really was.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah, because it’s for a good cause, but it’s all the training and all the work that you’ve put into it. I feel like that also allows you to just stand firmly. I’ve done the work. I would imagine it’s hard to get in that ring, you would have a different feeling if that was just out of nowhere, with no training. Hey, just jump in there and do it for charity.

Leslie: That would be foolish, very, very foolish to do. Nobody should — that’s not boxing. That’s called flailing. That’s what you do after you’ve had too many bourbons, and you regret it immediately. You should never go into the ring unless you know what you’re doing, but I tell you, I had a huge — when I was in that moment, standing there, I am — for the record, I’m a highly competitive person. I like to win, win, win, win, win. Winning is good. Not winning, not so good. Although I don’t care if I don’t win, but I want to win. Right?

John: Right.

Leslie: When I was standing in that ring, I wanted to win so badly. It had been my manifestation, my focus. I’m going to win. I’m going to do it. I’m going to do it. I will conquer. I will do this. Defeat is not an option, all of those things. When the pomp and circumstance and the music is playing, mama said knock you out. I’m doing the long walk to the ring. My coach is swinging the towel, and the other coach is rubbing my shoulders. I’m wearing my robe and, and it’s got like a fire dragon on the back of it. It was like a whole thing.

I went into the ring. I’m waiting for my opponent to come and do her walk on and step up. I’m standing in the ring, and people are cheering. My family and friends are there, and there’s people. I was like, oh, my God, this is so amazing. I want to win. I want to win. Holy crap, I’m already in it. I’m already doing it. It doesn’t matter because I have, now, standing here, I have accomplished everything that I set out to do. Whether I win or lose, nothing can be taken from me.

If I make it about winning or losing, then I could potentially give up part of this experience, to a sense of loss, and I’m not going to do that. It’s not happening on my watch. I want all of this experience. So, I didn’t care whether I won or lost. I was so present and still filled with joy. It was the most beautiful thing. As soon as it was over — I didn’t win, by the way. For the record, I just want to state, because I am competitive, she was five inches taller than me and had an almost five-inch reach on me.

John: Oh, wow.

Leslie: Those shorter boxers can still win, not with my level of experience, but, yes, they can, in the real world and stuff. Thank God that I didn’t give anything up to that. Because as soon as it was over and they raised her arm instead of mine, we turned our arms around each other, and we cried. It was so amazing. As soon as it was done, I said to Virge, “I want to do it again. I want to do it again.” My husband said, “No. No. Go box, go do your thing. I support you, 100%, but we are not going through that again. You are not —

John: It’s a six-month thing. It’s not just — yeah, and that’s such a great thing is I think a lot of people don’t realize that they’re in it before they think they’re in it.

Leslie: Yeah, they think the outcome is the thing. The outcome is not — this is not a rehearsal. It’s not the outcome. It’s about being fully freaking present for every step of that journey and not getting distracted by what you think will the outcome be or won’t be the outcome. Because then you’re not able to build the experience into your psyche, into your psychology, into your body. You only have the benefit of retrospect, of hindsight, and you can’t fill in those gaps. You can’t say, “Well, now that it’s over, let me go and sift back through all of this stuff to figure out what was valuable.”

You’ve got to figure out what’s valuable when you’re in it. You’ve got to be able to be in it because that gives you the ability to shift and to change and to pivot and all those things, to make better decisions, to have humility, to have insight, all of those things. You don’t want to do that only in hindsight or retrospect. It’s a waste of so much of your time and energy because it may be too late then. It could be too late.

John: No, that’s exactly it, and that’s what Swagger is, for everybody listening. Are there any tips or tricks or just mindset of just how to bring that swagger to the office or to your life? Because it’s not just at work, it’s swagger all the time.

Leslie: I think our swagger gets the most diminished when we’re at work because there are so many things, so many blockers as I refer to them, that will separate you from the rest of the world. In the book, I talk about the five key swagger blockers. I’m going to give you in two seconds. They are persona, ambition, insecurity, fear and pain. Who we really are, has to navigate and negotiate through those blockers in order to be seen and heard and respected and admired and appreciated by the world.

Each one of those layers, it’s going to take its piece. It’s like running a freaking American Ninja gauntlet. Swim through pain and fly over fear and get a punch of insecurity and navigate through ambition and climb under persona. Each one of those things is going to have to take its toll, and it’s very hard to keep who you are in tact. If you can’t figure out how to navigate and negotiate those blockers, then you will never be fully realized.

So much of who you are, gets left in the ditch kind of thing, your swagger blockers. You have less power. You have less power to create change. You have less power to influence, to innovate, to lead, to be meaningful in this life, to be fully present in this life and to have your truth be heard. Because that’s all any of us want in this life. That’s the secret dream of every human being on the planet is to be fully realized and to say, who I am at my authentic core is good enough. I do not have to pretend to be anything or anyone other than I am, in order to be accepted and appreciated and to make a meaningful impact in this world. That’s all we all want is to be seen and heard for who we are.

John: Yeah, that’s exactly right. I love that so much. You’re right. When we go into work, it’s a shell of ourselves.

Leslie: Yeah.

John: Oftentimes. Maybe at first, it isn’t, but then it just gets beat out of us, like you said. Who we really are ends up in the ditch. Then this automatron version of whatever was ahead of me that I’m mirroring that’s not really me, is what I’m now showing up out at work because I feel like it’s safe and what should be done.

Leslie: Yeah, and it’s the story we tell ourselves. We tell ourselves that it’s better this way, that we’re less open to hurt, that nobody wants to hear our truth, that it’s going to be something that’s going to be rejected and then it’s going to hurt because it’s the real us that gets hurt. We have so many rationales that we tell ourselves in order to stay hidden. If we’re very lucky, at some point in our lives, we go, that’s bull. That’s bull. All I need is courage. That’s all I need.

Because the secret, the big secret is that once you find and unleash your swagger, your life is better. Everything is better. You are more impactful. People gravitate towards you. You become more trustworthy. You become someone who has the power to lead more effectively. You tap into your ability to create change, to innovate, to figure out risks. You become a better parent. You become a better partner. You become a better friend, a better human. All it takes is the courage to take those steps.

Because I come from a training background, you know the book is pragmatic. I’m not about this look deep into your heart.

John: Right?

Leslie: No, no. The struggle is real and concrete, and there are concrete and real ways to move through it like a badass. Anybody can do it. It doesn’t matter if you’re an extrovert or introvert. You don’t get a special card. This whole thing called confidence is not something that the pixies sprinkle upon a few at birth. Who wants confidence? Step forward. Wait, not so fast, John. Step back. It doesn’t work that way. Swagger is available to every freaking human on the planet. You deserve it. You deserve it, and the world deserves to see your swagger, full stop.

John: I love that so much. That’s so awesome. What a great way to start to bring it in for landing because that’s exactly it, for everybody right there, and it’s such a great parallel really to What’s Your “And”? as well. This just goes bigger.

Leslie: What I learned, I used to call them boxing wisdom, one of the key things that I learned was, in boxing, once you throw a punch, you can’t worry about where it’s going to land because it’s too late. It’s thrown already. If you keep thinking where it’s going to land, you have not positioned your body to defend against the next punch. You haven’t moved yourself.

In this life, we worry so much about what we’re putting out into the world. We stay fixated on that, that we’re not preparing ourselves to deal with the challenging stuff that’s going to come our way as a result of throwing those emotional, gentle punches or putting ourselves out there in the world. It’s like throwing little snowballs out and then just watching them melt. There’s no point. Keep throwing snowballs. It’s way more fun than just standing around and watching them melt.

So, part of what I learned was, you need to play out the whole thing in your head and then just take it one punch at a time, one punch at a time, and never fight angry. Never fight angry. You will not win if you fight angry. You have to take on the fights in your life, the struggles, the challenges, with love and intention to contribute to the collective. Because if you’re doing it with resentment or anger or any of those things, it is not going to go well for you because the only person who’s going to lose is you.

John: You’re exactly right. That’s awesome, so many great knowledge bombs throughout this whole thing. That’s awesome, Leslie. Thank you so much. It’s only fair, since I started out the show, peppering you with questions, that now I turn the table very nervously to have the first episode of the Leslie Ehm podcast, everybody. Thanks for having me on as your guest.

Leslie: Okay, John, I have a few for you. You said three to five. I did like eight because I —

John: Okay, I’m all yours. Here we go.

Leslie: Okay. John, what do you find funny?

John: What do I find funny? I think really clever, observational humor, the things that we all see but only that person sees through that lens and then describes to you, like when a comedian describes something that you see every day and then you’re like, oh, my gosh, that is absolutely hilarious. I can’t believe that I never noticed that before. Irony is super funny to me, which is all in the world, especially in the last 12 months. It’s just those things where it’s, is anyone else seeing this? Am I the only one? Like the real world —

Leslie: It’s the truth. It’s the truth.

John: Exactly. It cracks me up every time.

Leslie: What’s your favorite sound, John?

John: I guess my favorite noise would be at a Notre Dame football game. Notre Dame scores a touchdown and then the crowd goes wild, yeah, just that spontaneous cheer of 80,000 people. Yeah, also laughter, laughter is pretty awesome. It’s also a spontaneous thing that I don’t know why it happens.

Leslie: Okay. If you could body swap with anyone for a day, who would it be?

John: Ooh, body swap. Paul Rudd. I feel like I have Paul Rudd’s body already, so I think we’re good on that one. Really, anyone in the NBA so I could just dunk a basketball. I just want to dunk a basketball.

Leslie: What’s your least favorite trait in people?

John: Least favorite trait in people, I think, is self-centeredness, where you’re just oblivious to what is going on outside and leaving the shopping cart in the middle of the grocery store lot. That’s self-centeredness. You’re not using your blinker. What are you doing? Or you just go driving. I turn into a demon when I’m driving because I’m just like, just what are you doing?

Leslie: What’s wrong with you?

John: Yeah, of course. Just, come on in. Why not? I’m right here.

Leslie: Don’t mind my vehicle. Please, insert your vehicle.

John: Exactly. It’s just crazy to me, just people are just so oblivious to what’s around them. I feel like smartphones have made it worse.

Leslie: On escalators, especially the airport, people on escalators on their phone, they get off the escalator, and they stand there on their —

John: Oh, yeah.

Leslie: I think you don’t realize there was a mechanized thing, pushing people into you. Get out of the way. Get out of the way.

John: Or listening to the video out loud. When I fly, I’ll actually get the earbuds in the pack, even though I have my own. Then when somebody is in an airport just watching a video on max volume that we don’t all want to listen to this; here, Happy Birthday early. Here’s some earbuds. I’ll give them to him because I’m like, we don’t want to listen to this.

Leslie: You know that person has their own earbuds. They’re just choosing not to use them.

John: Exactly. That’s the stuff that drives me nuts.

Leslie: What’s your most favorite trait in people?

John: Oh, my most favorite trait in people, I think, is — well, I mean, it’s in all people, I guess, but just people that recognize that we’re all going through something, and they want to help. People want to help.

John: Yeah, that sort of thing.

Leslie: Okay, so it’s the end of the world, but restaurants are still open, fortunately. What are you going to have as your last meal?

John: Oh, last meal. Well, we’ll start with some ice cream just because and then…

Leslie: What flavor of ice cream?

John: I like your chocolate brownie, chocolate chip. That’s always good. Chocolate chip cookie dough is always good, maybe a two scoop of that. I do enjoy the maximum calories coming into my face as possible.

Leslie: Yup, that could be your entree. Or is that going to be your dessert for this meal?

John: The ice cream I’d probably have as an appetizer just because you might as well start good. Then, yeah, probably a New York strip steak and potatoes. I guess I don’t really need vegetables because it’s the last day of the world.

Leslie: Mashed, fried or baked.

John: Oh, there we go. I like them all but, yeah, probably a baked potato, probably, so then you could just load it up.

Leslie: Twice baked with cheese and stuff and all that.

John: Oh, yeah, twice baked. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, loaded up. Same with the ice cream, just maximum calories.

Leslie: I know this is turning into a culinary experience.

John: Right. Maybe, but it’s the last day, so who cares? I don’t need any vegetables. It doesn’t matter.

Leslie: It just expresses how you feel about vegetables. The vegetables are necessary things as opposed to pleasure.

John: Yeah, that’s why they’re not on ice cream. Do you ever notice there’s no dessert with vegetables? There’s no…

Leslie: True that.

John: Yeah, it’s like, oh, well.

Leslie: Wait, carrot cake.

John: Yeah, yeah. It’s more of the carrot flavor, I feel like, than it is carrots. Here’s your broccoli ice cream. No.

Leslie: Said no one.

John: Gross.

Leslie: Ever. Last question, ready? Given the choice of two superpowers, would you rather be able to fly or be invisible?

John: Oh, wow. That’s a good one. Probably invisible.

Leslie: Why?

John: Just because I’m pretty introverted. It’s better if you’re invisible against the wall than they are against the wall. Other people could see. What’s that weird guy doing? We’re all over here talking. Why is he all by himself in the corner?

Leslie: So, it’s about introversion. It’s to make your introversion more convenient.

John: Yeah, exactly. Why become more extroverted when I can just become invisible? That would be great. Those are really good. That hurt my brain a little bit. That was awesome.

Leslie: Thank you.

John: Well, thank you so much Leslie, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This was super, super fun.

Leslie: Oh, it was a pleasure. It’s so much fun to talk about my “and”.

John: Right? Isn’t it? Everyone should.

If everyone wants to see some pictures of Leslie boxing or get the link to pre-order her book, Swagger, which is available right now, or connect with her on social media, please go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 371 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, barnesandnoble.com, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth in the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon, and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. Thank you so much for that.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Herschel Frierson. He’s a partner-elect come April 1st with Crowe in their Indianapolis office, and the chairman of the National Association of Black Accountants, and now he’s with me here today. Herschel, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Herschel: Oh, I am so excited. Thanks for the opportunity, and ready for having a enjoyable conversation.

John: This is going to be so much fun. We chatted before, and we’ll recreate the magic for everyone to hear now. You’re awesome. We have these 17 rapid-fire questions, just to get to know Herschel on a new level here, right out of the gate. I’ll start you with the easy one, favorite color.

Herschel: Red.

John: Red. Okay, all right. How about a least favorite color?

Herschel: Oh, God. I will say yellow.

John: Yellow? Okay. Yeah, that’s fair enough. Yeah, it’s kind of just there.

Herschel: Yeah.

John: How about a favorite actor or actress?

Herschel: Oh, man, actor, I love Denzel.

John: Oh, yeah. Yeah, so good.

John: I really love Denzel. Favorite actress, probably Halle Berry. I’ve always been a big Halle Berry fan, so, yeah, favourite actress.

John: Yeah, totally. Totally. Would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

Herschel: I’m a night owl. I’m a big time night owl, yeah.

John: So much that it almost goes into early bird.

Herschel: Yeah. It’s a hard one to answer. You’re so much of a night owl that it’s really in the morning. I’m 24/7, going. I think from a technical definition, I’m a night owl.

John: Night owl. Yeah, that’s hilarious. That’s super funny. More Star Wars or Star Trek.

Herschel: Star Wars, definitely.

John: Star Wars.

Herschel: Yeah, Star Wars.

John: Me too, same. How about your computer, more PC or a Mac?

Herschel: I will say both.

John: Okay.

Herschel: Yeah, both. From a work perspective, definitely PC, but personal, I will say a Mac. Both have positives on both side, so I will say both.

John: Yeah, asking a tech guy that question is loaded. That’s unfair of me. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Herschel: Strawberry. I love strawberry.

John: Okay.

Herschel: I am a strawberry man to its core.

John: Not the vanilla with the strawberries, it’s strawberry ice cream.

Herschel: I have gotten actual strawberries on strawberry ice cream. I can eat strawberry anything all day long.

John: That’s fantastic. That’s fantastic. This is a tricky one, favorite season, summer, winter, spring or fall.

Herschel: I’ll say summer. I love to get outside, just do things outside, so I will say summer, just windows down, riding around, just feeling good. Wintertime, no, because I don’t like to shovel snow.

John: Right?

Herschel: In the wintertime, there’s too much work.

John: It is too much work. It’s always cold. It’s always trying to — you’ve got more layers. I agree. I agree. How about balance sheet or income statement?

Herschel: Income statement.

John: Okay, there it is. It’s show me the money.

Herschel: Yeah. Where’s the money at? Where’s the money at? Where do we end?

John: There you go. There you go. How about a favorite sports team?

Herschel: Colts, Indianapolis Colts.

John: All right. How about, since the accounting background, favorite number?

Herschel: Three.

John: Three. Is there a reason?

Herschel: Yeah, various reasons. The best things come in threes, so I love the number three. Often, whenever I’m picking out a number, it’s usually the number three.

John: No, I like it. I like it. Here’s a good one, cheeseburger or pizza.

Herschel: Oh, my God. What are you doing? Cheeseburger.

John: Cheeseburger? Okay. All right. That’s a tough one, right?

Herschel: With pizza, I do get Meat Lover’s.

John: Oh, there you go. It’s like a cheeseburger on the pizza.

Herschel: Oh, yeah. If I had to choose, definitely the cheeseburger.

John: All right, all right. My book audio version’s coming out in about a month. Do you like Kindle, real book or audio version?

Herschel: Audio version.

John: Audio. Okay. Yeah, you can speed up the voice to make it —

Herschel: Yeah, audio, definitely audio.

John: There you go. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Herschel: I’m going to be truthful with you. I have never drank in my life.

John: Oh, there you go. All right.

Herschel: I’ve got a natural high, a natural sugar high.

John: Strawberry soda?

Herschel: I feel like a double shot of Sprite on the rocks.

John: There you go. Okay. All right. That works. Last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Herschel: I will say a Tesla.

John: A Tesla, there you go.

Herschel: The favorite thing I own right now is my Tesla.

John: When you’re a kid in gym class, favorite activity from gym class.

Herschel: Dodgeball.

John: Oh, solid. They don’t even let you play anymore, I don’t think.

Herschel: I know, but that was a way for me to get back at the bigger kids. I was quick to dodge it. I was like, yeah, if you mess with me, I’m going to —

John: You learn some much about life.

Herschel: Oh, man, I was a dodgeball fiend.

John: Yeah. One more, Sudoku or crossword puzzle.

Herschel: Crossword puzzle.

John: Crossword? All right. Yeah. Then we went into the last one, what’s your favorite thing you own, which is perfect for, obviously, like in tech, Tesla’s everything in one right there. That’s got to be — I mean, it’s an experience. Yeah?

Herschel: Yeah. I love technology, love innovation, love gadgets. It’s my dream car, number one, but to your point, John, it is. It brings in my passion outside of work, my hobby, I guess you would call it, of just technology and gadgets. I love the innovation around it, love that it can drive itself. I’m always studying up on it. What is going to come down the pipeline next is going to go to my car. I just love gadgets, and the Tesla, to your point, just really encompasses everything. We talked about my favorite season, summer, driving around, summertime, in your car, with the music blaring, I love it.

John: Or getting driven around.

Herschel: Or getting — yeah, driving me around, even better. Right.

John: That’s even better. That’s awesome. Did you grow up — were you always into techie stuff, or was it something you got into later?

Herschel: I think I always was around involving tech. I remember in grade school when the Nintendo first came out.

John: Oh, yeah.

Herschel: I just was like, I gotta have a Nintendo. There was a Sega Genesis, all of that.

John: And then PlayStation, yeah.

Herschel: And then PlayStation and everything. So, over time, over the years, just always had the video games, the technology behind that, just was always fascinating to me. Look where we’re at today, right? Who knew, when the Nintendo came out, where we’d be at today?

John: That’s awesome. I’m not going to brag, but I have the original Nintendo that I got when I was in sixth grade, I think, fifth grade. It’s amazing in surround sound. The gun doesn’t work on the flat screens, but everything else is amazing. It’s just awesome. Now, because of the tech, you can fit 500 games on one cartridge.

Herschel: Yeah. No, it’s just amazing. I remember going to arcades. There was one machine called the Colecovision that I had.

John: Oh, yeah.

Herschel: The Commodore 64. It was all of that, just leveled up.

John: Yeah, that’s super cool. Super cool. Now that you’re an adult, it’s got to be even better because you don’t have to save up your allowance or ask permission. It’s just, I just go get it.

Herschel: Happy wife, happy life but, yeah, still to the day, I get one of the new Xbox Series X. I have that. I have the PlayStation 5 as well. I have both machines.

John: Oh, wow.

Herschel: Like you were saying, I have Macs, I have PCs. I have the Oculus 2, which is the virtual reality. Look, if it comes out, I’m going to buy it. That is my guilty pleasure, and I’m okay with it. The first step is admission. I have admitted.

John: Right, but it’s what lights you up. It goes beyond video games, I know for sure. Obviously, the Tesla, but…

Herschel: The Tesla. I’m sitting here in my man cave. I built out a small theater. I have a small theater, home cinema here in my man cave. I have a Sony 4K projector with 115-inch screen.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Herschel: Yeah.

John: That’s 10 feet almost.

Herschel: Yeah, almost that. I have 11 speakers, two subwoofers. I have my own home theater in my man cave. I like movies as well, but I just love the immersive sound. My wife was like, why do you need 11 speakers? I was like, well, why not? Right?

John: Right? Because we can’t fit 12, that’s why.

Herschel: Yeah. If I can get more, I will put more, yeah. I just enjoy just feeling like I’m immersed in something like a movie. With the big screen, with the speakers, you really feel you’re immersed in the movie. We talked about watching the Star Wars movie. It’s just so much fun, so much fun. I have all the gadgets associated with the home theater, home cinema setup, so it’s lovely.

John: No, that’s awesome, man. The whole man cave, you’re like Iron Man, Batman. I don’t know. You just —

Herschel: Yeah. Well, biggest fights, DC or Marvel, and I always say both. Both. It’s okay to like both. I love playing the Marvel and the DC movies on the big screen with all the the sound immersive around you. It’s great. So, I have my own man cave. I have photographs and memorabilia, just a true man cave. I’m appreciating the opportunity for me to have this.

John: Totally. Do you feel like — I mean, a lot of times, people think of these as hobbies or passions that are just outside of work. They don’t really — do you feel like any of that gives you a skill or somehow impacts your career when you step in the office?

Herschel: Oh, yeah, definitely. I think it’s all about, we, as accountants, consultants, we talk about my little home theater I built, ultimately what I wanted to do was better my experience. How am I going to make it look better? I bought a 4K projector? How am I going to make it bigger? Bought a big screen. How am I going to make it sound like I’m in the movie theaters, at home? I connected 11 speakers and two subwoofers.

That’s kind of translating into work. What are you going to do to better your experience with your client? They’re coming to you. It’s all about, how can I value-add? It’s like what I’m doing at home. What does that value-add, someone coming over to the house or me watching the movies, that value-add, making it that much better? Same thing with work, what am I going to do that’s going to value-add? I’m going to go that extra mile. Instead of putting seven speakers on, go that extra mile and do 11.

John: Right. Right.

Herschel: It’s all about that value-add. You take that from home to work and work to home. They intersect with each other.

John: Yeah, I love that so much, so much because, yeah, that’s what you’re doing. It’s just that mindset, really, that you have outside of work that you also have it at work, and looking at things differently, how can I make it better and a better experience and, like you said, that value-add. It’s not just lip service. It’s for real.

Herschel: It’s got to be a passion. You’ve got to enjoy it. When I am hooking up and doing four, five hours worth of work in my home theater of connecting the speakers and making sure it’s sound right, it’s work, but you’re smiling. It’s the same thing with work. With your work, you hope you — and I found that passion in accounting, of, no matter how many hours you put in and no matter how hard it is, at the end of the day, you’re still smiling. We’re going to have our ups and downs in our career, but at the end of the day, you’re happy.

I can tell young professionals, I’m enjoying what I’m doing, enjoying the opportunity to have these conversations with you, John. Same thing, just at work, I put work in my home theater, my passion, my hobby. Not only at work, with the chairman of the National Association of Black Accountants, doing that volunteer work, you’re putting the work in, but you smile doing it. You don’t mind that extra time because you’re trying to make your profession better. You’re trying to help your clients better. That’s what I gained from my passion and my hobby at home.

John: Yeah, totally. When I talk to people, it’s setting up the home theater, finding a new tech gadget and figuring out how it works or what the new app that’s coming down from Tesla headquarters or whatever. That lights you up every time, 100% of the time. Work sometimes lights you up, but sometimes, let’s be honest, it’s work. If you’re able to talk about those things that always light you up a little bit at work, then that brings some more of the joy for all of who Herschel is, as opposed to just the accounting part of Herschel. So, do you talk about some of these gadgets and all this stuff at work? I’m sure you can’t not.

Herschel: Right. Yeah. Your work life, they’ve become part of your family because you see them so often. I like to just show people what my hobby is, and I like to learn more because it makes for a better team if you get to know who your team is, what makes them tick, what motivates them. I try to listen to those extra things. If I hear someone, like, man, I love donuts; well, you know what I’m going to do? I’m going to bring in donuts one day. If I hear, hey, I really like to golf; I’m like, okay, let’s do a team outing that includes golf.

John: Right.

Herschel: What you hear from the people you work with, it’s important for you to listen to what their passions are, outside of work. Because if you can bring a little bit of that inside of work, it does two things. One, it lets them know you’re listening to them. Two, it just brings a little bit of more joy into their everyday work life. That’s what I ultimately want to do about accounting and bringing a little bit of joy, even from home, into what I do.

John: That’s exactly it because gone are the days where we have to pretend, no, no, work, work is what I love all the time. I wish I could work 24/7. It’s like, no. I’m good at my job, and I like my job. I like the people I work with, but I also like other things, too. That’s totally okay. You don’t have to be shamed into acting like you’re —

Herschel: You’re human. You’re human. You like different things. It’s okay to say, I like badminton. Okay.

John: Yeah. Great.

Herschel: I enjoy learning different things about people. Because if everybody liked basketball, it gets boring. If everybody likes the same thing, looks the same. That’s all about diversity and inclusion. Everybody looking the same, talking the same, liking the same things, there’s no innovation. There’s no creativity. There’s no coming together as a team.

When you have different people have different passions, outside of work, it’s just exciting. It’s exciting for me. I just love to understand how people work, how people operate, outside of work, because at the end of the day, I want to pull that into work to make them a better person, make that team a better person, and hopefully, it reflects on our client.

John: Yeah, exactly. Where did you get this mindset from? Because it clearly wasn’t the way it’s always been done. I had plenty of managers somewhere like you and some, the exact opposite. Was it someone that you learned from before you? Or just, this is how I am, and I’m bringing it to work?

Herschel: I think early on in my career, I was lucky enough to have people surround me. I will say, one of my, what I will say, passions is diversity, equity and inclusion in accounting. I joined the National Association of Black Accountants when I first graduated from Butler and had so many people who mentored me, who taught me how to enjoy life, who taught me how to be successful in my career. I learned it from them. There were some people, volunteered and mentored me and gave up their time, so I’ve been doing the same myself.

Luckily, I’m chairman of the — 27th chairman of the Board of Directors for the National Association of Black Accountants. If I could help bring that passion into accounting like my mentor did for me when I first graduated from college, it’s wonderful. It’s helping individuals find their passion in the accounting and finance profession.

So, I learned it early on, from people who mentored me, and I’m trying to do the same. Just, what can I do to get that passion, that drive out of you? Because you can have that in the accounting and be successful. At the end of the day, I’m trying to be a cheerleader for you, to be a cheerleader for your career.

John: Yeah, and just for you as a whole person. I’m cheerleading your accounting career. I’m also cheerleading your marriage. I’m cheerleading your hobby.

Herschel: Your personal life. I want you to be happy because if you’re, at the end of the day, if you’re happy, then I know I’m going to get the best out of you.

John: Yep, exactly.

Herschel: If you’re not happy at home, that’s going to come to work. Just like, if you’re not happy at work, that’s going to go home.

John: Yep.

Herschel: You don’t want either of those, right? So, whatever I can do, A, to bring happiness to you, no matter how difficult it may be at times, I’m doing part of what I want to do of just increasing the opportunity for you to be a better person, to be a better leader within the organization, within the firm. It’s worth the joy I get at this point in my career. What can I do to bring passion and joy and opportunities for you?

John: Totally, and I feel like the work will get done. We’ll always get the work done. It’s just, the hobbies won’t always get done because those are the first things that we put on the side or the back burner or forget about. Before you know it, you’re 40 years later, and you’re like, I forget what I used to like to do, type of thing.

Herschel: Well, that’s why I encourage people too. I’m like, become a soccer coach, become a baseball coach of little league. There’s an art form of teaching young people. I always say volunteer, find a passion and volunteer. Mine is the National Association of Black Accountants. That’s my passion. I always say, if you can motivate and volunteer, imagine what you can do inside the walls of your company and firm.

John: Oh, yeah.

Herschel: I encourage people, find your passion, find your drive, whether it be the Susan G. Komen, whether it be Boys and Girls Club, whatever your passion is. I will say, I’m always like, hey, we love you at NAPA, but find your passion because it’s going to pay dividends not only for you, personally, but also for your professional career as well.

John: I couldn’t agree more, man, and that’s awesome that you’re not only a living example of it, but verbally encouraging. Because so much of us are in that, we were joking earlier, before we hit record, of the permission-based place. So, if you’re verbally giving permission, you’re not –because so much of us are, like, well, I don’t know if I can or not. Well, Herschel, explicitly said, go do this.

Herschel: Give back. Give back to your community.

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Herschel: Once again, if you really like to be a baseball coach, it does me no good to hinder that passion. It doesn’t. If I can help feed that passion, you’re going to be that much more supportive within the firm. Herschel knows what my passion is, outside of work. I’m going to go that much harder for him, inside of work.

John: That’s exactly it. You genuinely care.

Herschel: I truly do. I truly care. Because, once again, if you’re not happy at home or in your social life, I’m not going to get the best out of you at work. If I can get the best out of you at work, I’m happy to get the best out of you in your passion outside of work. That’s so important.

John: I love it, man. I love it. Do you have any words of encouragement to people listening that have a hobby or a passion that they feel like has nothing to do with their job or no one’s going to care?

Herschel: The first and foremost is, we all have time. So often, we say, I don’t know if I’ve got time to do this. When it comes to mentoring, when I talk about mentoring young people, just mentor one person. I’m not asking you to mentor 10 people. I’m not asking you to spend 80 hours a month. Just mentor one young person. Imagine if we can get 50 people to mentor one person.

John: 50 good people.

Herschel: Right? Because I tell them, you’re going to get so much more out of it than you would think. I just encourage people to, who feel like, yeah, it’s overwhelming to be a coach; well, be an assistant coach. So, I encourage people that, you have the time. I just tell people, you have the time.

The other thing is, be okay with the valleys that come throughout your career and your life. They’re going to come. Be okay with that because the upside will come. The sun will rise the next day. We all know that there are going to be rough times. We’re going through this pandemic and this social injustice. It’s up to each and every one of us to personally make that difference and make it better. That’s what I want to do is, what can I do to make this pandemic better? What can I do with the social injustice? What can I do to bring my passion into the profession? That’s what I just encourage people, is you matter. We all matter. Just spend a little bit of time with your passion and give back, give back to your community.

John: That’s so powerful, so powerful. This has been really, really great, Herschel. I appreciate you being on. It’s only fair, since I rapid-fire questioned you right out of the gate, that I turn the tables and allow you to pepper me with some questions. So, welcome to the first ever episode of the Herschel Frierson podcast. Thanks for having me on, man. I appreciate it. I’m all yours.

Herschel: So, what is your “and”?

John: Oh, my “and”. College football is a huge part of my life, for sure, going to concerts, ice cream. I’m a little bit of a connoisseur, I guess, is what you say if you don’t want to sound like you have a real problem. Actually, when I used to live in Indianapolis, I was in Big Brothers, Big Sisters for about 10 years. You’re right, you learn so much more than whatever you’re teaching to the person that you’re mentoring.

Herschel: What do you think is your biggest regret?

John: My biggest regret. Oh, wow, man. This is an intervention all of a sudden. This is deep. My biggest regret, I guess just probably not writing my book sooner, probably getting in my own way, impostor complex of who am I to have this message that changes the way people think about how they work and their work cultures, and just seeing people reading the book and then the changes that they’re making, and just not doing things sooner. The accountant in me is still very strong.

Herschel: Right.

John: The risk-averse, don’t go out on a limb too much, but that’s not where good stuff happens, isn’t in the middle of the lane. You’ve got to push yourself, and it’s okay to fail. The sun will come out.

Herschel: Oh, yeah. You’re going to learn from it. Right?

John: Yeah, that’s the valley, but the sun comes up.

Herschel: My last question is, you’ve done podcasts, you’re doing great in your career, wrote a book, kudos to you; what is next on your list?

John: Well, thank you, man. Well, it was interview Herschel for What’s Your ”And”? We could check that one off. Next is working more with organizations of how to implement this philosophy. I’ve spoken to, in 2018, 2019, it was 10,000 people in the audiences, and it’s simple but not easy. I find that a lot of people go back to work, and they think about it differently, but how do I do this? What are the steps? It’s different for every place, so it’s really working with them to, how do we build this? How do we increase our lifetime value of our employee? How do we make a better employee experience on purpose?

So many organizations and especially, public accounting, law firms, consulting firms, they don’t really think about that. It’s just like, there’s work to be done. It’s like, yeah, but you can make a better experience for your people. They stay longer. They add more value. Everything’s better. Client service is better. So, it’s really just implementing, helping organizations implement it. It’s rolling my sleeves up and helping you do it, I guess, is the next big step. That works, man. Well, thank you so much.

Herschel: Yeah, this was a great conversation. We should do this again. We need to do a check-in in the next several months and see how each of us are doing, and I appreciate the opportunity.

John: No, I appreciate it. Then you’ll be official partner.

Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Herschel’s gadgets or Herschel outside the work, or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing to the podcast on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 370 of What’s Your “And”? Follow-Up Friday Edition. This is John Garrett, and each Friday, I follow up with a guest who had been on the show a few years ago to hear what’s new with their outside-of-work passions and also to hear how this message might have impacted them since we last talked.

I’m so excited my book is out. You can order the book on Amazon, Indigo, barnesandnoble.com, a few other websites, so check out whatsyourand.com for more. Thank you so much to everyone who’s read it so far and been kind enough to leave those Amazon reviews. Thank you so, so much for those. For those of you that have been asking, the audio version is coming next month. That’ll be super exciting. I can read the book to you.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this Follow-Up Friday is no different with my guest, Daniel Siemens. He’s a tax analyst with SCL Health, outside of Denver, Colorado, and now he’s with me here today. Daniel, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Daniel: Hey, thanks for having me.

John: Oh, man, this is going to be so much fun, so much fun. Episode 183, we talked the ship-in-bottle building, which was super cool. You were in the book. I had a really good quote in there, so, thank you for that. I have my rapid-fire questions, get to know Daniel on a new level here. If you had to choose, Harry Potter or Game of Thrones.

Daniel: Oh, man. I haven’t watched a whole lot of Game of Thrones, so I’m going to go with Harry Potter.

John: I’m the same. I haven’t at all, so I’m with you on that one. Talk or text.

Daniel: I will go with talk actually. It seems like I can communicate faster, talking.

John: Right? Because then it’s not back and forth, 14 times. It’s just the one call and then we’re done.

Daniel: Yep, exactly. Push through, let’s move on.

John: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Favorite season, summer, winter, spring or fall.

Daniel: Oh, summer, by far.

John: Oh, okay. All right.

Daniel: Yeah, I like warm weather and playing outside, all about it.

John: Yeah, yeah. All right. Oh, this is a beautiful one, shower or bath.

Daniel: It depends. If you have a Jacuzzi bathtub, something really nice, then bath. Otherwise shower. Our bathtub is tiny, so, shower.

John: There you go. There you go. It’s actually, a stand-up shower is our bathtub. That’s how tiny — no, I’m just —

Daniel: Yeah, right.

John: Exactly. Exactly. Three more. When it comes to books, audio version, Kindle or real books.

Daniel: Oh, that’s a good question. I’ll go with audio because I do find it easier to listen to books as opposed to reading. I don’t know. My wife is a bookaholic. There’s something about having a good aesthetic of books in a bookcase on a wall. They look good, so I can see both.

John: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I didn’t realize that. That’s why I recorded mine. That’ll be out next month. It is so much harder to record a book than you would ever imagine. It was crazy. I wrote the book.

Daniel: Right. You’re like, I know what’s in here.

John: It was weird. It was super weird. Here’s a good one, socks or shoes.

Daniel: Doesn’t one go without the other? Shoes. I don’t know. I show off shoes more than socks. Socks just kind of sit under your shoes.

John: Right. Okay. Somebody asked me that at the end of an episode a couple of months ago. I thought it was really fun, so I’ve brought it into my repertoire.

Daniel: That’s hilarious question. I like it.

John: The last one, toilet paper roll, over or under.

Daniel: Over. It’s easier to get to.

John: Yeah, absolutely. I agree. I agree.

Daniel: It’s in the patent apparently.

John: It is, I think. I haven’t seen it, but the internet said.

Daniel: I saw it on Facebook. I don’t know. Ridiculous truths you find on the innerwebs.

John: It’s true then. It’s true. Episode 183, the ship-in-bottle building, which is just super cool. Is that something that you’re still making?

Daniel: Yeah, yeah, a little bit, probably not as heavily as I was. I was a part of the Rocky Mountain Shipwrights and building models and that sort of thing. With the pandemic and everything, they haven’t been doing much because the average age is 70 to 90, which is prime danger zone, as far as the pandemic goes, so they haven’t been meeting at all.

I’ve done different things. I’m still working. I do a few here and there. I have this old Armitage McGann model that I’m working on that’s from the 1930s, just for storing, which is super fun. Just a quick synopsis of that. Armitage McGann wrote articles for Popular Science back in the 1920s. He put out books on, and it’s all how to build a really simple ship model for your home.

John: Oh, okay.

Daniel: Yeah, it’s super cool. It’s just old school. It’s like, go to the notions counter and ask for this. I’m like, what the heck is a notions counter? Apparently, that’s what they used to call hardware stores.

John: Okay. Okay.

Daniel: It’s just this old school book. It’s so fun to read and just dive into. The model is simple enough that it’s fairly easy to put together. It takes a lot of time. It’s something I’ve been working on. The guy I got it from said, “There’s some milkshake for your mind.” I was like, yeah, that’s exactly what this is.

John: Right. The milkshake that you get at the notions counter.

Daniel: Yeah, the notions counter, apparently.

John: That’s awesome, man. That’s so cool. I’ve seen on social media too, that you’ve picked up a new hobby as well.

Daniel: Yeah. It’s one that I’ve been into for a long time, but just off and on. I finally got back into it in, what was it, May or June of last year. They did a thing with my work where they had mandatory PTO one day a week. I was like, well, now I have a day off a week that I have to take. What am I going to do with it? First thing we did was build the kids a big old playset that they could run around on and stuff. That was super fun. It was a good time. I’m already in that building mode. I’m like, you know what, I’ve always wanted a halfpipe in my backyard since I was a kid.

John: Skateboarding halfpipe, yes.

Daniel: I want a freaking halfpipe in my backyard. I was like, I’m an adult. I have adult money now. It’s time. Let’s get a halfpipe. I’ve been trying to go to the gym and trying to get fit, whatever, and treadmills suck. They are the worst. I hate treadmills. I’ve been working at the gym and stuff, off and on, trying to, and it just wasn’t going anywhere. I was like, if I had a halfpipe, I bet I would do a lot better. I have. I’m down 25 pounds since I built the thing.

John: Really? That’s amazing.

Daniel: It’s crazy. It’s a workout.

John: Yeah. You don’t really think of skateboarding as a workout. That’s incredible.

Daniel: Right. Because, yeah, you’re having fun the entire time, but, man, it wears you out. It’s hardcore.

John: Yeah.

Daniel: My halfpipe is small. It’s two feet tall, eight feet wide, probably about 20 feet long. It’s not like it’s gigantic, but, man, it’s just so much fun. This is ridiculous. I didn’t realize that. I guess it’s a thing. There are different Facebook groups and stuff where there’s a lot of people during lockdown itself that have built many ramps in their backyard. I’m probably one of thousands of people that are — somebody needs to do a documentary on this stuff because there are thousands of people building mini ramps and getting into skateboarding over quarantine.

John: That’s so cool. Did you subscribe to Thrasher magazine again?

Daniel: I haven’t.

John: That was my junior high. That was mine.

Daniel: Right. I should, probably.

John: I skated back in the day.

Daniel: Oh, did you really? Dude, you need to come out and skate my ramp.

John: Yeah, that would be incredible. I’m four feet taller than I was then probably, or maybe not. That would be awesome. That would be so cool, man. That’s just so great to hear that it’s something else, and the exercise component to it is pretty awesome, too. Yeah. Is it something that you’ve talked about at work at all? Because I know ships-in-bottles, they are just out, and people talk about them.

Daniel: Yeah, right. It’s a little harder. Now they’re not out because I’m working from home, so nobody really sees it. I’ve talked a little bit about my skateboarding. I think it’s one of those things where, especially when you’re older, per se, you’re not a teenager anymore, everyone’s like, what are you, skateboarding? Really? What are you, a kid? Even my neighbor was like, we get older, and sometimes we have to give stuff up. I’m like, maybe you get older and have to give stuff up. I’m still skateboarding.

John: Why? Whatever. It’s not illegal. It’s not taboo. It’s fun. That’s crazy.

Daniel: Yeah. There’s that old quote from Jay Adams that’s like, how does it go, you don’t stop skateboarding because you grow old. You grow old because you stop skateboarding.

John: Right? There you go.

Daniel: I think it’s true. I’m more fit than I was before, and I’m having just a blast with it. Yeah, I think there’s some truth in it.

John: Yeah. Right as soon as I saw it on social media, I saw the video, and I was like, that is awesome. Even when we got the two feet of snow just a couple of weeks ago and you had the board up, I guess I got to go do some work.

Daniel: Oh, yeah, that’s right. Oh, man. Yeah, and there are funny little quotes with it, as far as that board goes, because I did the art on that board. Part of it is accounting-related, so it relates to the podcast a little bit.

John: It’s awesome.

Daniel: I got into skateboarding, and I don’t know if I told you this. I had a really bad skateboarding injury, six or seven years ago, where I hit the pavement doing 20.

John: Oh, my gosh.

Daniel: Yeah, hospital for four days, it was pretty bad. I wasn’t wearing a helmet. If I was wearing a helmet, I would have just been scraped and bruised, whatever, but darn helmets. So it is this thing. My wife is reluctant, but also she’s pretty darn awesome that she lets me keep doing it after that traumatic experience. The deal has been that I could skateboard, but she’s going to make fun of me for it, as much as she wants.

I made the mistake of having her watch Search for Animal Chin with me. It’s on YouTube. Look it up. It’s the most hilarious, stupidest thing. I think it might be the first skate video that ever came out, but it’s absolutely ridiculous. It’s got a very, very young Tony Hawk. If you want to see Tony when he was a scraggly little kid, he’s in there. It’s the stupidest show, but, man, it’s so fun. It’s that old ‘80s language. Oh, that’s gnarly man. Oh, rad. Now whenever I’m at the skate park, she calls me. It’s like, hey, man, you land that swordfish on a slab yet? Oh, man, that’s gnarly. Oh, my gosh. So that’s on my board, the swordfish on the slab.

John: Oh, that’s hilarious.

Daniel: That’s where the swordfish part comes from. Then I was complaining to her about accounting stuff. People weren’t listening and doing — I’m like, this is the accounting rules, guys. We’ve got to follow those frigging laws and gap and everything. She’s like, you’re an accountant. That’s your job. You’ve got to slap them over the head with the cold dead fish of reality. It was just the funniest thing. So, yeah, that’s on my board too, the cold dead fish of reality and the swordfish on the slab.

John: That’s hilarious.

Daniel: It’s just this weird inside joke, but, man, it’s fun.

John: No, that’s great, man. You come alive. It’s creative. It’s fun. It’s laughing. It’s going back to youth, which, why not? I feel like so much of us, we become so serious. We forget about play. We forget about just not everything has to serve a purpose or have an end goal or be for money or whatever. Just do it just because.

Daniel: Yeah, there’s that dichotomy. There’s somebody on Tiktok, there’s a skater on Tiktok talking about there’s that triangle of things of learning, destroying and creating. Skateboarding very much embodies all of that because you’re learning tricks, you’re destroying your board as you do it, but you’re also creating within, the art itself for so many mini ramps, all sorts of things. That kind of applies to life in general, in one way or another. You’re creating. You’re learning, or you’re destroying something in order to build something new, and it goes in that circle.

John: Yeah. That’s really deep, man. I like that. That’s really good. It is very similar. Since we talked, have you seen people sharing their outside-of-work passions more, do you feel?

Daniel: Not so much with my work. We all know each other. We know what —

John: Well, that’s great then. Yeah, you’ve already achieved that level.

Daniel: Pretty much, yeah. My boss is still very into golf, absolutely loves it. He moved down to Arizona, so he’s got summer all year long, practically. I don’t know. Golfing in 120 probably isn’t fun.

John: Yeah, I know.

Daniel: But he definitely has more warmer days than he did in Denver.

John: Right. That’s for sure. No, but that’s cool though. I know with COVID, that definitely threw a wrench in everything.

Daniel: Oh, yeah.

John: I would imagine that, because you all knew each other and knew those outside-of-work hobbies and passions, that made it a little bit easier to translate over to the working remotely because, well, I already know these people and what lights them up.

Daniel: Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. It’s a little bit different because you don’t have that office talk as much. You’re not passing in the hallway sort of thing, but it is nice to be able, when you get into a call, and be like, hey, how’s the golfing going? How’s the cycling going? Have that more friendliness before you get down to business because calls, just too much business and stuff, it’s overwhelming sometimes.

John: Right. Absolutely. I agree with you. I agree with you. Do you have any words of encouragement to anybody listening? Maybe they’re skaters as well, and they’re like, it has nothing to do with my job, or no one’s going to care, or whatever their hobby or passion is.

Daniel: Yeah, if there’s anything, especially things you did as a kid, that’s the one thing that I — skateboarding is something I’ve always come back to, do it, man Get into it. Build that mini ramp. That’s the other thing. It’s something I’ve thought about for years. It’s finally like, you know what, I’m going to do it and see what happens. It’s been absolutely the best thing for my health, for my sanity because, yeah, exercise is extremely good for your mental health as well. So, yeah, do it. Get out and do that thing you’ve thought about doing but haven’t yet.

John: Right, and no matter what, Search for Animal Chin on YouTube.

Daniel: It’s so cheesy. You’re probably going to hate me or want to be like, oh, why did he suggest this? But it’s fun. It’s ridiculously fun.

John: It’ll be super cool. The next time we talk, I hope you build a skate ramp in a bottle, something like that.

Daniel: I’ve thought about it. I have thought about I need to put a ramp or, at the very least, a skateboard in a bottle just to say I did.

John: Yeah, or a 2D skater doing whatever. Yeah, that would be awesome.

Daniel: Right?

John: Well, this has been so much fun, Daniel. I only feel it’s fair, since I rapid-fire questioned you right out of the gate, that I turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Daniel Siemens podcast, skater, dietitian. I don’t know. Thanks for having me on.

Daniel: Well, I guess, rapid-fire-wise, since I didn’t know you skateboarded before, I’m going to say, what was your best trick?

John: Oh, wow. So, this was in sixth and seventh grade. We lived in the Azores, overseas, on base. Probably, I don’t know. I wasn’t amazing at it. There were stairs. I feel like there were four stairs. I could jump that and then landed, which, at the time, that was pretty good. It wasn’t massive or anything like that, but it was pretty good.

Daniel: yeah.

John: I wasn’t flipping the board in the air or anything like that. I was just landing on the board. I mean, there were 200 times where I landed on the board and then it slipped out from under me and then I fell on my butt. You just keep going back.

Daniel: Yep.

John: Very much like having a career actually, now that I think about it.

Daniel: There are so many parallels.

John: There are so many, but that was probably my best trick. I don’t know.

Daniel: No, that’s pretty darn good.Ollieing itself, it took me two years to learn how to ollie. I don’t know why I stuck to it that long, but I got it. Darn it, I got it.

John: Yeah, because it’s super cool when you do it. That’s why.

Daniel: It is. It is. Yeah, it’s fulfilling that way. It takes you that long. Then, I guess, since it took me that long, I’ve never really lost it.

John: Nice.

Daniel: At least not the ollie. There are other tricks I’ve lost. I’m still trying to get disasters back. I don’t know if you probably saw that video on Twitter, too.

John: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Daniel: Showing myself on the ramp, trying to go up and do a 180 on it. and just falling over. I still can’t get it. I’m still just crashing into the ramp, over and over and over. I’m going to get it though. I’m going to get it.

John: When you do, it’ll be with you forever. That’ll be cool, man. That’ll be cool. Totally awesome. Well, thank you so much, Daniel, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? and a part of the book and everything, and just being a good guy and a friend. Thank you, man, for being a part of this.

Daniel: Yeah, thanks for having me, man. This is super fun.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Daniel in action or connect with him on social media so you can get the future videos, you can go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out my book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 369 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes into more depth in the research that I’ve done behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon, and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. The audio version is coming out very, very soon. I’m excited about that.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Tripp Gebhard. He’s a partner with PWM Planning in the Denver office, and now I’m in his office with him. Tripp, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Tripp: John, thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here and talk about my favorite topic. My friends will get a real kick out of this. I guarantee it.

John: For sure, man. This is going to be so much fun. I have 17-rapid fire questions, get to know Tripp out of the gate here. We’ve hung out so many times here in Denver, and I’ve never asked any of these. Maybe I should have actually, now that I think about it. Here we go. First one, favorite color.

Tripp: Blue, definitely, navy blue.

John: Yeah, I’m a blue fan as well. How about a least favorite color?

Tripp: Least favorite color would be purple.

John: Oh, interesting, okay.

Tripp: Or maroon.

John: Yeah, they’re kind of close.

Tripp: Yeah. Tough sports teams here in Colorado, colors, Rockies and Avalanche.

John: Yeah, that’s true. It’s exactly right.

Tripp: Tough to root.

John: It’s tough to root for them. How about when you were a kid in gym class, favorite activity?

Tripp: Oh, I’m going to say street hockey.

John: Oh.

Tripp: Yeah. I play forward with a goalie stick.

John: Oh, really?

Tripp: Yeah, real powerful.

John: Yeah, I was going to say, you have to have some guns for that. That’s impressive. How about Sudoku or crossword puzzles?

Tripp: Crossword, for sure.

John: Okay. All right. How about brownie or ice cream?

Tripp: Ice cream.

John: Ice cream. Okay, there you go. Nice. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Tripp: Favorite actor or actress, I’m going to go with Bill Murray.

John: Oh, that’s a great answer.

Tripp: First thing that came to mind, yeah.

John: He went to college in Denver.

Tripp: At Regis actually. I don’t think he graduated. I actually went there my freshman year before going to University of Denver, so, got to hear a lot of Bill Murray stories.

John: Okay, there you go. All right, all right. How about, would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

Tripp: Oh, early bird, for sure.

John: Early bird. Okay, all right. Star Wars or Star Trek.

Tripp: Neither.

John: Neither. Okay.

Tripp: Neither at all.

John: I’ll let it slide. I’ll let it slide. Fair enough. Fair enough. Your computer, more of a PC or a Mac.

Tripp: I am a PC, for sure, but I love my iPhone.

John: Okay. All right. There you go. Since you’re a PC, on your mouse, left click or right click.

Tripp: Left.

John: Left. Making decisions. Boom, there it is. Okay, all right. Oh, this is a good one, summer, winter, spring or fall.

Tripp: Man, it is hard. How could you not pick summer in the mountains in Colorado, but I’m a huge skier, so there’s always the dilemma. I love all seasons, especially here when the sun shines, and you can do it —

John: Here in Colorado, they are because the mountains are great in the winter and the summer.

Tripp: I’ve learned to kind of take it with the seasons.

John: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tripp: It’s better that way. That way, you’re not looking outside of what’s going on in the present. You just go do it.

John: I love it. I love it, man. Yeah. Just in case any other seasons are listening, he likes all of them. We don’t need to bang away on Twitter.

Tripp: Yes, yes, very neutral there.

John: Very neutral, very neutral. Chocolate or vanilla.

Tripp: Yeah, that’s a tough one because I love them both, but push comes to shove, I’ll take a vanilla shake.

John: Oh, okay. All right, all right. Okay, here we go. We’re going to go NASDAQ or Dow.

Tripp: Well, the darling of last year was NASDAQ with all the tech stocks, so let’s go with the Dow this year.

John: Okay, all right.

Tripp: Let’s change it up.

John: Okay, so you can move with the seasons on that, too. I see what’s up.

Tripp: Yeah.

John: How about a favorite sports team?

Tripp: Oh, that would be a tie between the Denver Broncos and the St. Louis Cardinals baseball teams. It’s kind of neck and neck.

John: Yeah. No, I hear you. How about a favorite number?

Tripp: Well, the first thing that popped to my head was 16. I don’t know why. That just popped to my head, so we’ll go with that.

John: Yeah. No, that’s a good answer. Two more. When it comes to books, Kindle, real book or audio version.

Tripp: It’s interesting because the last two or three books that I bought, I actually bought the the hard copy version on Amazon so that I can pick it up, read it and make notes. I go back and forth and on all three. It just really depends. I don’t know why. It’s like, do I audio book it or what? It just happens.

John: Okay. All right. No, fair enough. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Tripp: Well, I already mentioned my iPhone. That would be just because I am just amazed that it literally can do everything. If I need to hang a picture, I can use a level. Driving anywhere, I could never imagine — every time I go somewhere, I’m like, I would never have found this the old way.

John: Right, right.

Tripp: I just am amazed. Plus, it’s my access to information and everything else, whether it be my meditation or whatever I’m going for. It just does about everything for me.

John: That’s awesome. I feel the same way. When I get somewhere, if my phone craps out right now, I will not be able to get home. I don’t know how I got — people are like, how did you come? How did you drive? When I go to a different city or traveling, I don’t know what the highway was. It’s the one that got here.

Tripp: It tells you, follow this little line.

John: It has made me maybe dumber, which I was already starting low. No, but let’s talk Grateful Dead. How did you get started with that? Was it from when you were younger?

Tripp: Yeah. So, my initial foray into the Grateful Dead was a buddy of mine, Kevin, and it was maybe eighth grade, ninth grade, a lot of studio stuff.

John: Okay.

Tripp: I ended up getting into this, so, during that time, getting exposed to it. Then I went to boarding school, I guess it was my junior year, in Maine. Going up there is where I got exposed to this whole Grateful Dead society, whatever the hell Deadheads were. From that point forth, everywhere I went, it was like, half the people were Deadheads and half the people weren’t. That’s where I got into collecting a lot of tapes and started my tape collection of bootlegged concerts and so forth.

John: Okay.

Tripp: Got exposed to some real hardcore East Coast Deadheads, New York deadheads, the real deal.

John: Like the Ben and Jerry’s founders guys.

Tripp: Yes, yes, the real deal. Then I brought that back to St. Louis. We just started going off and seeing concerts and trading tapes and stuff. How I actually got to my first show, which was cool, is I was working for my uncle. They had horses and so forth. I’m working in the stables, and my cousin had tickets to see the Grateful Dead in Wisconsin at Alpine Valley.

John: Oh, yeah.

Tripp: I had tickets that Saturday night to see America at Westport in St. Louis. Arden couldn’t get off work or something, so we switched. It was $13 a ticket. Can you imagine paying $13, which included parking?

John: That’s amazing.

Tripp: Included parking. My tickets were $19. It was like $40 for a weekend to go see the Grateful Dead, and we switched. I remember driving home and just this panic about, is my mom going to let me go? Is she going to let me go? I’m 16 years old or whatever.

John: Right.

Tripp: Her comment was, “I think it’s a great idea. You can go see the country. You can no longer be a hobo on a train, type thing. This will give you a chance to go out there and see the real world.” Growing up where I grew up, it was like, I heard 100 times, it seemed like a month, that you better eat that, there’s a starving kid in China. My mom used to always say, “This isn’t the real world. This isn’t how real people live.”

John: Oh, my goodness. Yeah, yeah.

Tripp: For me, it was this sense of, well, what else is out there? We have this cushy life, but there’s all this stuff out there. There’s all this adventure. She said, “I think it’s awesome. I think you should do it.” That was the entry to a whole another world.

John: Who did you go with?

Tripp: My first shows, I went with some friends from high school. The Boger family is a big name. They’ll probably listen to this at some point. Peter Boger is a good buddy of mine. He ended up having two older brothers, which was another thing that I got to go, was because we had chaperones.

John: Right, but older brothers are your friends. That doesn’t count.

Tripp: Older brothers who are not exactly — we got something different out of them than my parents thought we were getting.

John: Right, right.

Tripp: Anyway, yeah, that was the beginning. It was one of those things that I just — I remember going up to Wisconsin, and you met these people from all over the world, literally. It was just a really, really cool experience. The thing about The Dead which is so different than other bands, they put on a true show, not a concert, not repeating itself, very jazz, open-ended music and a lot of exploring. There’s just a lot of adventure in that and openness, so, a lot of fun.

John: It’s got to be cool too, because you know that you’re witnessing something that’s never going to happen again, because they’re going off on these solos or riffing. They’re jamming on something, and they’re probably never going to do this again, in this way, type of thing. It’s a one-and-done sort of moment and, like you said, it’s an experience.

Tripp: Yeah, and consciously, I think the band took that to the audience. Consciously, they said, we’re going to do everything in our power not to do this song in the same way, and put trips in at different parts, to change things and approach it a little differently, that kind of thing. You really did get a different concert every night. It was the thing. I felt it was like, hey, we go to a winning sports team event. You’re guaranteed to win tonight. I’d be doing it, so it was just a lot of fun.

John: No, that’s awesome, man. That’s super cool. Did you continue going to concerts then? Do you have a favorite one that comes to mind, beyond the first one?

Tripp: Well, like a lot of things in life, yeah, there was that very, very first one.

John: There’s quite a few, yeah,

Tripp: Yeah, the very first one was just, you can never get that one back. Everything was new. Everything was fresh. A lot of that stuff is still burned to my memory, just feelings or just images, if you will. I would say probably the second one was ‘87, ‘88, New Year’s at Oakland. The first time I saw The Dead was in June of ‘87. Then we went out to California, me and Peter, my buddy, and Kevin, who’s a dear friend of ours, who’s departed us, unfortunately, but he was in a lot of my first shows. That New Year’s and that whole experience and being out in California as a 17-year-old, it was just — every New Year’s, it’s like, there will be nothing ever again. I’m usually asleep at 10 now.

John: Right.

Tripp: It was such a special time. Those two kind of hang out, but then there was so many. The thing about when I go to Dead shows, you’d see people from a bunch of different — from boarding school, from grade school, from high school, from summer camps, all over the place. That kept that going. I went on, pretty much, four summer tours from ‘87 through, I guess it would have been ‘90.

John: Okay.

Tripp: Then one of their band members died, Brent Mydland, who was a very, very important part of the band, had joined them in ‘79 and really changed the sound. Not just me saying this, but the time that I saw them, still to this day, a lot of the surviving members have said that was the best period, ‘87 through ‘90, when Brent died.

After that, I didn’t tour as much, but I still would see them maybe four times a year, for three or four shows, maybe a city or two, and do that. What I started to do is, at that point, I started listening to the Phish as well. They’ve been in my repertoire. That’s why I said they’re my band today, but The Dead is always my band.

John: Yeah, because Phish is the newer version.

Tripp: Yeah, and they’re totally different but don’t shy away from any of that because they thank the Grateful Dead for getting them there. They didn’t know that they could play exploratory music like that. They didn’t know — everything from the two-set system, they copied all that from — and they admit it, but their style, their music and everything is so different to us, I think to somebody who’s got the ear for it.

John: Yeah, exactly. They’re in the same family, but they’re definitely not the same.

Tripp: Yeah, and I would say, for sure, they’re the most popular jam band to come out of the Grateful Dead, but there are so many others. There are so many Dead-oriented-only bands.

John: That’s true, too. That’s true, too. That’s awesome, man. Four times a year, that’s dedication. This is clearly a passion that, if I were to tell you, you can’t go to another Dead concert, what?

Tripp: You feel like that now. We have definitely felt that way.

John: Yeah.

Tripp: Yeah. It’s just been that way. I don’t know when we’re going to get back. A few things, I’ve been to all 50 states. In 2016, the only state I had not been to was Oregon. My son and I, who was about 14 at the time, Penn, the two of us went out there and saw Dead and company, out in Portland. That was cool. From going to California, to upstate New York, New York City, Texas, Arizona, Southern California, Northern California, I’ve been, you name it, on a major highway, I’ve been on it, or through the state whatever.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah, because it’s driving to these concerts, that’s part of the experience as well. It starts days before the concert itself.

Tripp: It’s a circus. It’s a kind of a caravan. That was the fun thing.

John: I didn’t even think of that. Yeah.

Tripp: I think the last, probably five years, a big deal for us was Las Vegas.

John: Oh, okay.

Tripp: People would come from all over the country, from 1990 to ‘95. That was a great time.

John: That’s awesome, man. That’s cool, and it’s cool that you were able to tour with them, basically, for those summers, when they were at their peak.

Tripp: Yeah.

John: Which is pretty awesome. That’s super cool. That’s super cool. Do you feel like any of this translates to work at all through your career?

Tripp: Well, it’s certainly, definitely who I am. I think it’s funny because when I was thinking about this, when I started getting into this, I had to talk some of my friends that are doing it or talking to them and talking to their parents into it. There was this adult. We’re doing this. We’re teens. We’re doing something wrong because we were doing stuff wrong.

John: Right. Yeah.

Tripp: Yeah, we were kids. So we were going out there and exploring, but we had to talk these parents into it. A couple of my parents’ friends didn’t let them go or whatever. They were angry that they — there’s all this negative connotation, but it was such an amazing time. So I think that, for years, even when I was getting in the professional world, I tried to hide some of that because I thought that that wouldn’t be worthy of people hearing or whatever.

As I’ve gotten older, you start to understand how you were made. You start leaning on experiences. For me, I think, the adventure, I would go on the road, and we’d sleep behind gas stations. Nobody would be there. You’d have to deal with the attendant in the morning. I’d go knock on doors at 11:00 on a Sunday night to ask a farmer if we could sleep in his field. Certain things like that take a lot of courage. So, I don’t know, after you do that for a while, you’re just automatically doing that stuff, and you’re on the road surviving. So, those skills have always served me very, very well.

John: No, that is interesting though because, yeah, when you get into the workplace, it’s the first time that you’re not around everyone your same age.

Tripp: Yeah.

John: All of a sudden, there are people that are 20, 30 years older than you that are your parents’ age, that you’re also working with. It’s easy to think that, well, they’re going to frown upon it because all my parents’ friends frowned upon it and whatever. Therefore… Yeah, it’s the same thing there. That makes sense.

Tripp: Today, honestly, it’s just such a part of who I am, but I’m also — I get the younger generation. They’re amazed because that’s not available today. A lot of the guys I work with are just past people that I talk to that are younger. A lot of what I do is multi-generational wealth management and so forth, so we mentor a lot of kids and stuff. I don’t know. To me, now, it’s important for me, that experience.

John: I walked into your office. You have a Grateful Dead logo against the window. You have the magazine here on the table. You have posters on the wall. Yeah, absolutely.

Tripp: These are all gifts too. Everything I have in here that you’re looking at is gifts from people that know that I love it.

John: Know you.

Tripp: Yeah.

John: That’s fantastic, man. It’s cool that it’s just out, and there it is. It’s not like you’re shouting it from the rooftops, but, hey, if somebody comes in here, they know that’s the Dead logo. They’re like, oh, you like the Grateful Dead. It just opens up a conversation there.

Tripp: Yep.

John: I love how you said that it’s important. Why do you think it’s so important that not only people have something outside of work, but to also share it?

Tripp: Well, I am one of those guys, and I do a lot of coaching, too. For me, I’ve just learned that sharing and being vulnerable is you’re giving permission to that other person.

John: Yeah.

Tripp: With the Dead and stuff, I think about my office, it’s kind of a joke, but it definitely gets people into their own areas, and so just talking to people and getting them to open up. I facilitated a lot of member presentations for CTLF, and the one thing I start out with is, hey, what do you not want the group to know about you? Let’s just get there. I’ve never had anybody in that container that doesn’t get right to the gut of it.

John: Yeah.

Tripp: I have them tell their story. When I get to the very end of the story, I always ask them, so what do you not want me to tell the group? I’ve never had anybody tell, or in my introduction, I’ve never had anybody not, say, I’d be a hypocrite if I didn’t tell everything, so let’s just go ahead and do that.

John: Yeah. Right.

Tripp: I think it’s very important to have outside activities. That’s who we are. It’s not like, I’m only a financial planner. I’m much more than that, and so are the people that work for PWM.

John: Yeah, and your clients.

Tripp: And clients.

John: It’s the same thing. Because that’s the thing when I talk to people, especially that are in the professional services world, it’s like, do you know who else has hobbies and passions? Your clients. So, if you’re able to create a connection, if you had a client who was also a Deadhead, you’re best friends for no reason. Good luck, anyone else trying to steal that from you because they’ll never leave you. It doesn’t matter. You just have a connection that’s above and beyond the work.

Tripp: Yeah. It’s like anything else. When you look at parts of society and stuff, I look at my CTLF group, Colorado Thought Leaders Forum group, there are two of us that are big Deadheads. Then there are three or four people that had seen them and are peripheral, know about them, had friends or spouses that were crazy like us.

John: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tripp: It’s really everywhere I go. You’re going to be in a group of 10 people. There’s going to be a Deadhead or two in there. That’s just the way it always is. I don’t know why.

John: What’s cool is how you let that philosophy of the Grateful Dead permeate who you are and how you work and how you live and all of that, which I think is really cool.

Tripp: Yeah. No, definitely, just the sense of adventure, sense of community, sense of camaraderie. The Dead really did have a family. They were very much of a family type, very communicative to fans. You had constant communication, whether it be voicemails that you can call into, to listen to, for updates or —

John: That’s awesome.

Tripp: Yeah. They really — I don’t know. I felt like the adults, I don’t know, in my life before that, just all of them sort of had — they told you the way things were. Then you got out there in the real world, and it’s like, okay. It’s really open. They give you responsibilities, or here’s how they asked you to act as adults.

John: Right. Yeah, yeah.

Tripp: It’s like, well, nobody ever asked me to act like that. They told me how I had to act. It was just a whole different…

John: I love that, man, because that’s such a great parallel to a lot of professionals. We graduate college. They tell us how to act. They treat us like we’re five. It’s like, no, I’m highly educated. I’m intelligent. I know what I’m doing. Treat me like an adult, expect me to act like an adult, and then let’s go and make some damage. Let’s do some good stuff.

Tripp: Yeah.

John: Instead, it’s, no, here’s your pacifier. What are you doing every six minutes? Put it on a time sheet. Where were you when I came by your cubicle and you weren’t sitting there?

Tripp: You loved being a CPA, didn’t you?

John: All of it. All of it. Golly, we’re adults here. I love how the Grateful Dead treated their fans that way, as family and as adults. Here’s our expectation, and then you rise to that.

Tripp: Yeah.

John: I wish more corporate people listened to Grateful Dead now. That’s amazing. I didn’t even realize that. That’s super great. I guess when you were earlier in your career, when you weren’t sharing as much, understandably so, was there something else you were sharing? Or was it more just like put your head down and get the work done?

Tripp: Well, now that you asked me it that way, so, I worked for Invesco in 1995. That’s when Jerry died. I was actually in a training session in August at — we were getting trained on something. Jennifer was our trainer, who I’m still friends with today. She and her husband were big Deadheads. I worked at a floor of, probably, 80 people, and there was at least five or six of us that were on tour. We would go, not on tour, but we would go to California for the Cal Expo shows or go back to Chicago, whatever we did, active people. So, I don’t know if I really had to ever hide it.

John: Oh, okay.

Tripp: Would be the answer really.

John: Yeah, but you didn’t necessarily share it openly. It was more of like, oh, you like the Grateful Dead too? Okay, cool.

Tripp: Yeah. I think maybe it was that, now that I think about it, that 33-year-old getting in the financial services business, who had to, all of a sudden, button everything up, and that didn’t really fit in that buttoning up. After a while, you get tired of being all buttoned up.

John: Right. Well, that’s exhausting too. Who did I tell? Who didn’t I tell? What do they think? What don’t they think? In your own head, you’re building up these stories of this is what they’re going to say. None of it’s true, and none of it comes out that way.

Tripp: Yeah. The one thing I’ve done in the last, I’d say, three, four years is I really just — just say what you feel. Whatever is there, just get it out and then you don’t have to worry about it. I think that’s a maturation process that we go through too, of better understanding, hopefully —

John: Maybe in confidence as well.

Tripp: — some of us or something.

John: Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. It’s more mature than we were at 15. We’re 17.

Tripp: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

John: Exactly. That’s awesome, man. Before we wrap this up, do you have any words of encouragement for anyone listening? I know we touched on earlier of how important it is to have those outside-of-work.

Tripp: Yeah. Where we sit today, you and I were talking before we began this thing, we can’t do a lot of things we wanted to do or used to do. With anxiety, depression and all that stuff that’s really on the rise, I think the best thing we have is our relationships. So, the more we can talk to other people, that’s the best advice that I can give right now, is stay connected, stay open, stay open-minded and get after it.

John: That’s so perfect. I love how you said that, with the mental wellness, in the last year, has really become really crucial. It’s not just all work all the time.

Tripp: Yeah, so get out there and talk about your why with people. Have fun. There’s been a lot of that good connection with a lot of people, but a lot of people don’t know how to do that. It usually takes, if there are two people, it takes one of them to make that call. I’ve had so many conversations with people in the last two months that’s like, well, why don’t you be the one to call? You be the one to call because you’re just two people, right? Everybody’s sitting there saying, well, I don’t hear from people anymore.

John: Then pick up the phone and have a normal conversation, not a work conversation.

Tripp: Exactly.

John: Yeah. No, I love that. That’s so great and so easy for people to do. Simple but not easy, I guess, is maybe the best way to say it, but, yeah, just do it. Pick up the phone. Call somebody. Call Tripp, everybody.

Tripp: There you go.

John: Call Tripp.

Tripp: Absolutely. Yeah.

John: Your iPhone’s blowing up. We’re all good, all good. Well, it’s only fair, since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, that we turn the tables now. We make this the first episode of the Tripp Gebhard podcast.

Tripp: Yeah.

John: Thank you so much for having me on, Tripp. I’m all yours if you want to fire away with some questions.

Tripp: Well, the first thing is an obvious one, John, is what is your “and”?

John: Oh, my “and” is college football, for sure, and ice cream and going to concerts.

Tripp: So, ice cream has been your main event.

John: Oh, yeah, ice cream, for sure, all the time. When I worked in the corporate world, doing comedy was certainly my “and” but then that became my job, which is very hard. I don’t advocate that anyone makes their “and” their job. It’s crazy and hard and insane.

Tripp: Okay, I’ve got a really good one for you.

John: Yeah?

Tripp: Grateful Dead or Phish.

John: Oh, wow. Okay, well, yeah, I guess the number of songs that I have listened to, I’ll say Phish only because I’ve heard more Phish songs just because they were newer, I guess.

Tripp: Yeah.

John: They’re both great bands. Musically, they’re so talented.

Tripp: That’s a good answer. They’re still around. You can see them.

John: Yeah, yeah. I mean, in college and stuff, that was more, then, like Dave Matthews was also kind of jam bandy when you see them live. They were the bands at the time, so, yeah.

Tripp: Phish was a little bit more edgy.

John: Oh, yeah. For sure. For sure.

Tripp: Little longer hair and some other things that went along with the crowd and that kind of stuff.

John: Exactly.

Tripp: Okay. Would you rather have more time or would you rather have more money?

John: Oh, man. Yeah, that’s a good one. I’m going to say more money just because I’m with you, but more money —

Tripp: You don’t want me to manufacture time for you?

John: I think if you have more money, a stupid amount of money, then time doesn’t necessarily matter because it’s not like you’re working 40 hours a week or, in my case, even more, and then you have to fit in those “ands” and life around that. If you have a stupid amount of money, then your whole life is your “and”. You just do whatever you want. If you die at 40, well, you know what, you had all free time. You had the same amount of free time as someone who died at 100. So, I’ll take more money, I think, now that I’m talking it out.

Tripp: Well, money can definitely bring more opportunities and more leisure time.

John: Yeah, yeah. Also more problems, I guess, like Mo Money Mo Problems. That’s wasn’t a Phish song.

Tripp: There you go.

John: That wasn’t a Phish song.

Tripp: No, it was not, and that’s another discussion.

John: Right, right.

Tripp: Yeah, there’s definitely, be careful what you wish for, at some point.

John: Secretly, more money. Secretly. Awesome, man. Well, thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This was super, super fun.

Tripp: Yeah, I’m pumped. Thanks for having me.

John: Absolutely, and everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Tripp or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing to the podcast on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 367 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiates you when you’re at work.

If you like the podcast, you can go even deeper into my research. The book’s available on Amazon, Indigo, barnesandnoble.com, Bookshop, a few other websites, so check out whatsyourand.com for all the details. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading the book and writing such great reviews on Amazon, and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love hearing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Arianna Campbell. She’s a shareholder and consultant with Boomer Consulting, and now she’s with me here today. Arianna, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Arianna: Thank you so much, John, for inviting me to participate. I’m excited to be here.

John: Of course. We’ve known each other for years, and I’m just excited to talk refinishing furniture, this new, super new talent. This is cool stuff that you have on Instagram and everything. I’m just excited. First we have rapid-fire questions, things I probably should’ve asked you the first time we hung out at the BTC Summit, but, hey, this is all good. Here’s an easy one, favorite color.

Arianna: Favorite color is going to be, let’s do green. You heard the decisiveness, green.

John: Okay, all right. How about a least favorite color?

Arianna: Least favorite color, maybe orange.

John: Okay, yeah. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Arianna: Favorite adult beverage is water because you have to make sure you are staying hydrated.

John: There we go, especially as an adult.

Arianna: Aside from water, a glass of red wine, most definitely a great thing too.

John: Okay. All right. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Arianna: Actor or actress. I don’t have one that comes to mind off the top of my head. I’ve been binge-watching more of the nature shows like the Planet Earth and things like that because the kids love those. Those are the first things that come to mind are cheetahs and lions and elephants.

John: Right. They’re on the screen.

Arianna: That’s the world I’m in right now.

John: They’re on the screen. Yeah, as a parent, it is hard to know who even is an actor or actress anymore. Yeah, exactly. Would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

Arianna: Early Bird all day. I would rather get up at 3 am to work on a project than try to push at 10 or 11 at night. Hands down. Hands down.

John: Wow. Okay. Would you say more diamonds or pearls?

Arianna: Probably diamonds. I love both, but I’d probably say diamonds.

John: All right. Or maybe alternating. Why not, if that’s the thing. I’m not sure if that’s…

Arianna: I think it is. I think it is. It’s our world, and it can be both.

John: Exactly. Puzzles, Sudoku or crossword.

Arianna: Neither.

John: Neither. Okay.

Arianna: No. Neither one. I’ll come away from those just feeling completely defeated.

John: Right? You just flip to the back where it has the answers.

Arianna: Yeah.

John: Yeah, I didn’t even know that was a word. Okay. Star Wars or Star Trek.

Arianna: Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. Yeah, me too.

Arianna: Hands down.

John: Your computer, more of a PC or a Mac.

Arianna: PC.

John: PC. Yeah, me too. Oh, this is a fun one. How about your mouse, right click or left click?

Arianna: You can only right click.

John: Well, click or right click, I guess, is the…

Arianna: Click or right click? Click.

John: Click. Making decisions, boom, there it is.

Arianna: Yeah.

Johhn: All right. Because right click is the one that opens up all the folders and the who knows what happens.

Arianna: Yeah, no.

John: Exactly. How about, this is a fun one, summer, winter, spring or fall?

Arianna: Fall.

John: Fall. Yeah, I love fall too.

Arianna: Yeah, absolutely. I live in Charleston, South Carolina, originally from Wisconsin, so winter is out. Live in Charleston. While it’s a lovely area, summer is hot. Fall is perfect, in my opinion.

John: Yeah, there you go. This is a fun one, balance sheet or income statement.

Arianna: Income statement.

John: Income statement. Doesn’t matter. Whatever. Just something. Oceans or mountains.

Arianna: Definitely oceans.

John: Okay.

Arianna: I’m a beach-chaser. Interestingly enough though, I can’t swim, but I am a beach-chaser. Our favorite place to travel for my husband and is to the beach.

John: There you go. Nice. Okay. How about a favorite sports team?

Arianna: Favorite sports team, well, I have to go with the Badgers since I am a Wisconsin Badger. You got to love them. In our house, we’re 49’er fans and Tar Heel fans.

John: Okay, a little bit of everything.

Arianna: It’s how we roll. We’re all over the place.

John: That works. That works. How about a favorite number?

Arianna: A favorite number. One.

John: Solid. Is there a reason?

Arianna: Because you just asked me and I had to come up with one.

John: Okay. There we go. It’s the best. It’s number one. It’s the top. Two more. Kindle, real book or audio version.

Arianna: Kindle, definitely, because then I can read at night, whether the lights are on or not. I’m definitely a reader more than an audio listener, so I love my Kindle.

John: Okay, all right, like around 7:30 or 8 pm, when you say at night. No, I’m just kidding.

Arianna: Bedtime right there.

John: Right?

Arianna: Got to get up at 3 am to finish that project.

John: Exactly. I was like, woo. All right, last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Arianna: Favorite thing I have or own. The first thing that came to mind for the favorite thing to have, what’s in my life, is my family. I don’t know that owning the things as really that important. It’s about the people and the memories and things like that. So, favorite thing that I have is my family.

John: That’s awesome. Very cool. I know that it’s become family projects with the furniture refinishing. How did that get started?

Arianna: It’s crazy. It was one of the blessings of 2020. I know that 2020 definitely had its challenges, and it’s just unexpected surprises. One of the blessings that came out of it is that I was home more than I’ve been in the past five years. I typically spend a lot of time on the road within my job. Obviously, having the pandemic, was grounded starting back in February, so a lot of time at home.

My husband and I — I think everyone was in a spring cleaning, sprucing things up around the house kind of fix. We wanted to have some different furniture, and we looked at what was out there. Nothing was really fitting our needs. We saw an antique piece. It was really pretty, but it needed some work. It needed some paint. We were like, could we do this? Fortunately, I was home long enough for us to be able to find out. That is how our furniture refinishing started and then it’s blossomed since then.

John: Was it watching YouTube videos, or did you guys already have a knack for being crafty or woodworking or any sort of background in any of that?

Arianna: I didn’t think that I really had a knack in anything related to this. I hadn’t done anything like that. My husband is a little bit more handy when it comes to woodworking and things like that, but when it came to the actual painting of it, it was doing research. It’s crazy. I never knew that I’d have my favorite primer or my favorite sandpaper grit or my favorite wood filler.

John: These are questions I should have asked in the beginning, favorite sandpaper grit.

Arianna: I could have told you that. 320 because I can really get down to the fine detail.

John: Yeah, that’s when you’re making it shine. That’s where that’s at.

Arianna: Exactly.

John: Of course for regular paper, that’s so fine. That’s so cool though. Yeah. It’s like, what? I have a favorite, all these things.

Arianna: I didn’t even know. I’d have to say that while I’ve been excited about our furniture refinishing skills, I didn’t know that I was also going to have to develop furniture moving skills. Because when you get the furniture, even if someone helps you load it into the truck, when you get home, it has to get out of the truck and then it has to move around to where it needs to be. So, now, I’m lifting weights, not just for my health and exercise. It’s to make sure that I can move this furniture.

John: Which is something that you didn’t think about. That is not in the brochure. They did not tell you that at the beginning. That’s for sure.

Arianna: It wasn’t at all. So, now, there’s this new motivation. I’ve got to make sure I’m getting my workouts in so that I can do my part.

John: Yeah, because one of the more recent pieces I saw was a full-on dresser. It was huge, old school dresser. That thing’s big and not easy to maneuver. That’s impressive. That’s relationship-building, I think, is what they call it.

Arianna: It totally is, me and my husband, the relationship-building.

John: Right? That’s awesome. Are there any more favorite pieces that you’ve done?

Arianna: I have to say that I really enjoy the custom pieces that we’ve had the opportunity to do. It started off as something that we just did because we enjoyed it, and it allowed us to customize what we wanted furniture in certain spaces to look like and to have that old sturdy furniture.

We did a custom piece for a set for a friend. It was her childhood set that she had given to her daughter. Her daughter was now 18, wanted something with a different look, more modern, more sophisticated. That was the gray one that you mentioned. It was really dark gray with gold accents. I got to do some hand painting on that one. To be able to do that for a friend and to have her entrust us with refinishing her childhood furniture was pretty awesome.

John: That’s also cool that it went from something that you guys were just doing for yourselves, to friends and other people saying, “Hey, can you do that for me,” sort of a thing. That means that it’s legit. If other people are asking you, then it must look good, type of a thing, which doesn’t really, totally matter because you were doing it for yourselves in the beginning. It’s just cool that there’s some validation from others like that. Then you can see them light up in what you’ve done, and they can celebrate it with you.

Arianna: Exactly, and they’re lasting pieces. When you’re getting furniture redone, it’s something that you’re looking to keep for a good while, especially when it’s those heavy, sturdy pieces. That’s exciting too, to know that you’re doing something for someone that’s going to be a piece in their home that is going to be part of their everyday life, especially when it became one of those unexpected things.

You mentioned earlier, my husband and I, being able to work on that together. It’s our weekend thing that we work on. The kids come out and help us with — well, they actually more supervise and ask, “Are you doing that? Are you sure that’s the way you’re supposed to do it? I don’t think that looks right.” I’m like, it’s just primer. It’s just primer. We’ll get there.

John: Right? Patience, children, patience. That’s amazing. Yeah, I can only imagine, when you have the critic over your shoulder and then you have three of them really.

Arianna: Yes. It’s a high quality process. They don’t let anything get by them.

John: That’s awesome. Does any of this translate over to work at all, maybe from a mindset perspective? Obviously, you’re not going into the office and painting all the furniture. It’s like, excuse me, Jim, I’d like to paint your desk.

Arianna: If you don’t mind, so just step out of the way. First, I’m going to lift it for you. First, I’m going to lift it.

John: Sandra, that bookshelf, got to go.

Arianna: I can help you with that.

John: My kids told me about it. Does any of this translate over?

Arianna: Interestingly enough, it does. I spend the majority of my time helping firms with their processes and really helping them to find ways to make their processes more effective so that they can find the capacity to focus on what matters. Because if we are spending time on wasteful activities, then we’re not able to really give our clients our best as experts and as professionals.

I’m Lean Six Sigma Black Belt, huge into process. Interesting part is that my husband works in manufacturing and also is a process expert. He’s a Lean Six Sigma Green Belt. A majority of his job is all around process. You have the two process people coming together, creating a completely new process of refinishing furniture.

I will admit that we are both process geeks, but it’s been interesting, working together to create, for us, what’s been a process from scratch, trying to figure out what in there is adding value, what is duplication of work, what’s going to be valuable when we’re actually giving it to someone. Are they going to notice this part versus this part? Really trying to see value from the end client’s point of view.

Then we end up, inadvertently having, conversations about work. We don’t spend much time, when working on projects, talking about work, but it does really make you trigger things about, thinking about what matters. What’s important to the client? How can we be more focused on that? How can we build in more quality? How can we really just make sure that we’re also doing it in an effective way? There are definitely direct correlations that I was not expecting, and I wasn’t expecting to get to partner with my husband on so many different, what, essentially, in a lot of ways, are process projects.

John: Right? That’s just cool to hear because you’re exercising that muscle, outside of work, and just getting stronger, looking at things differently, and looking at something totally different because there are processes to everything that we do. That’s cool to hear that you were doing it for the love of it but, accidentally, because of my book, you were like, oh crap, I’m learning something here. This is work-related.

Arianna: It does tie together, John, and that’s what I love about just your message with What’s You’re “And”? is that we’re not just who we are at work, who we are as people and the things that we enjoy. I don’t think that it’s a coincidence. Well, I don’t know that I would have picked furniture refinishing, but given the space that 2020 gave us, I guess it ultimately, being reflective, doesn’t surprise me that process is really something that’s driving me in my hobby, when it’s also something that drives and inspires me at work, and connecting those dots.

One of my biggest things to focus on is continuous improvement. That’s what I talk with clients about so much is we’re not striving for perfection. We want to make sure that we’re making progress, that we’re getting better every time that we do this. That’s how we approach our furniture refinishing as well. We’re way more effective than what we were on that first project that we did. We look back at that, and we’re like, I can’t believe we did it that way. That’s also how I look at things at work often.

It is exciting to see the continuity between the two, and that’s why it’s important. Because then you can connect with people authentically, through hobbies. I’m not just talking to you about some nerdy process stuff at work. I can talk to you about process when it’s related to furniture refinishing, and you get that. It’s a lot more relatable.

John: I love that so much, and you don’t get better unless you do it. You weren’t doing it to be on HGTV or some Old World something. You were doing it just for fun, and something that we wanted. We want to make it a different color, and we want a piece that’s going to last. Over time, you get better at it and then people start to ask. I love how the social media, the Instagram stories and everything, it’s so fun to follow along on that. Was there ever a time where you’re like, hey, maybe we shouldn’t put this out there? Or were you always just like, this is who I am, why not?

Arianna: Well, I did have hesitation in the beginning because I felt like, well, I really like it, but what if it’s just my own personal style or taste. Not so much from not putting that part of myself out there, but I do think that you wonder if people will be as excited about it as you are. You want to put it out there, whether you’re excited about it or not, but it was more of the curiosity of, is it just something that I’m really fired up about, and it’s like, nah. I received really positive reactions, again, which lead us down the custom path and to have it be something that we love doing, so it ended up being a benefit.

That’s why people should share their hobbies because it’s created a lot of additional conversation also internally, at work. It gives something else to talk about with my teammates, and then they start talking about their hobbies. So, just encouraging people not to be afraid to share the hobbies that they do have. Again, it’s all about connecting as humanity, and we need that now more than ever.

John: Yeah. No, totally, I totally agree with that. It’s cool to hear that there was the positive affirmation from that because I think it’s 99.9% in our head of don’t share because people are going to judge. Why did you paint that gray? It’s like, I have three kids to tell me that. I don’t need the whole social media world to also tell me that.

Arianna: I have my biggest critics at home. They’re 10, 10 and six. They’re very well-experienced.

John: Right? Why do I need to go out for this? I’ve got it right here. It’s cool to the right people. Maybe there are people that scroll past and are like, well, whatever, but then there are people that do. They’re like, wow, that’s awesome. Really cool. I messaged you several times. I was like, what? This is so awesome, and just random things. I think it’s just cool to see those different dimensions of who people are.

Arianna: I agree.

John: Then when those conversations happen at work, those relationships just get stronger and deeper and richer than before.

Arianna: I agree with that completely. It gets other people talking about it too. It gives me an opportunity to say, “This is my “and”. There’s also a great book about that called What’s Your “And”?

John: Thank you so much. You’re too nice. You’re too nice. How much is it on an organization to create that space for people to be able to share their “and” versus how much is it on the individual to just be, “Hey, this is what I did over the weekend. I refinished a dresser or whatever. What do you like to do?” Is it more of a bottom up or top down, or does it matter? If you have a grumpy pants at the top, can you still share, type of thing?

Arianna: I think it has to go both ways. Especially now with the increase in remote working, it’s more important than ever before to have it bubbling up from the top and the bottom. I am a firm believer in the importance of the tone at the top, really opening up and sharing and creating that culture of, again, looking for ways that we can be connected through who we are as people, not just who we are at work, is important. Even if you have that strong tone set at the top, you still have to have people who are willing to share. I do think that it goes both ways, but I’m a strong believer in the importance of establishing that culture from the top.

John: Yeah, it does definitely make it easier. That’s for sure. It’s not impossible, but it makes it a lot easier. Even then, I found that the tone, even if you’re just a manager level person with your little team, you can set that tone.

Arianna: Absolutely.

John: Even if the tone at the very, very top is different, you can set that tone even within your small group.

Arianna: That’s a great point about defining what does the top mean, as far as from a leadership perspective, and remembering that there are opportunities at multiple levels throughout the organization to make that difference. I will still tell people, even if you’re the only one in your firm who’s talking about it, I think it adds to your authenticity, to your relatability, to be able to connect with people and build relationships, which is even more of an emphasis within the profession than it’s ever been before. As you’re focusing more on being more advisory and consultative, being authentic and being your true self is important, so show up that way at every opportunity you get.

John: Right. No, I love it. I love it so much. Those are perfect words of advice to everyone, and encouragement, as we wrap this up. It’s only fair that I turn the tables since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the very beginning. This is now the Arianna Campbell podcast, first episode. Thank you so much for having me on. I appreciate it.

Arianna: So glad to have you here, John. I need to know, dogs or cats.

John: Oh, dogs, hands down.

Arianna: Okay, peanut butter or jelly.

John: Oh, wow, that’s a hard one. Yowzers, that’s a tough one. I’ll go crunchy peanut butter.

Arianna: Okay, Coke or Pepsi.

John: I’m not a soda guy. I’m really not. I guess if I had to choose one of those two, yeah, probably Pepsi. Coke, for some reason, when I was a kid, my mom used to stir it up when I was nauseous, and would stir it up. So, I equate it —

Arianna: Oh, for upset stomachs.

John: Yeah.

Arianna: Yeah, I can feel that. Okay, one more is, the glass half full or half empty.

John: Oh, man, that’s hard too. I’m going to probably say half empty. Just the comedian in me is just always the pessimist. Just, everything’s wrong and just the lens. Just the comedian in me is that way, unfortunately.

Arianna: I appreciate that answer. It’s not unfortunate, but maybe we can make your glass refillable. How about that?

John: Well, it’s unfortunate when I’m looking at my own glass because then it’s super hard. I don’t even have to have kids to have the critics. I’ve got them in my head. Brutal.

Arianna: We all do to a certain extent. That’s why you need the glass to be refillable.

John: Exactly. There we go. See, now I’m walking away enriched. Thank you so much, Arianna, for taking time to be a part of What’s Your “And”? This was super, super cool.

Arianna: Yes, I agree. Thank you so much for inviting me. It’s always great when I have a chance to spend time connecting with you and sharing, and looking forward to the next time we’re able to do so.

John: Yeah, thanks so much, Arianna. Everybody listening, if you like to see some pictures of Arianna outside of work or some of the pieces that she’s refinished with her family, or maybe connect with her on social media so you can follow her along on some of the stages, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to get the book.

Thanks again for everyone for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.