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Welcome to Episode 517 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. It was so kind of The Independent Press Awards to name it a Distinguished Favorite. And the book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon, and more importantly changing the cultures where they work because of it. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Paul Jan Zdunek. He’s the COO of Miller Kaplan in Los Angeles and the author of Cowboys & Conductors: Conversations on Horseman-Humanship. And he’s with me here today. Paul, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Paul: Hey, John, great to be here. Thanks for having me.

John: Oh, man, this is gonna be so awesome. I’m super excited, but I have 17 rapid fire questions. Get to know Paul out of the gate here.

Paul: Hopefully, I won’t fail.

John: Right. This is gonna be the shortest episode ever. Like here we go. This is an easy one. Favorite color.

Paul: My favorite color is dark red and dark gold together. Kinda like the Italian red and golds. My whole house is fill with that.

John: Okay. All right. All right. That’s a little too close to USC for me, but we’ll keep going. How about a least favorite color?

Paul: Least favorite color is green.

John: Oh, okay. All right.

Paul: Especially like lime green, you know, like the pukey kind. Pukey green.

John: Right. Yeah, no, it’s a little too bright. How about you prefer more talk or text?

Paul: Talk for sure. Talk.

John: Yeah, just get it done. There we go. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Paul: You know, I love Robin Williams and Tom Hanks ’cause they have such a wide range of skills. They’re funny. They’re serious. And actually, one week, I started binging Tom Hanks movies ’cause they were so awesome.

John: I mean, that could go forever. I mean, that’s like they’re season so many. It’s unbelievable. Yeah. But you’re right. They’re both so good. So good. How about a favorite animal? Any animal at all?

Paul: Favorite animal. That’s a new one. Oh, geez. You know, the dog is always the favorite. They’re always so sweet. They need you, you know, easy.

John: Yeah. No, dogs are awesome. Absolutely. How about a favorite movie of all time?

Paul: You know, my favorite movie— Well, two of them actually. One is Birdcage, which is hilarious. Again, Robin Williams. Right? Totally awesome. The other one is Parental Guidance with Bette Midler and— Oh, I forget the— It will come to me. But also movie about, you know, sort of the new generation, and how parents are giving gold stars to everybody, and how Bette Midler kind of deals with that as a grandparent. So, awesome movie. I keep watching that over and over again. Hilarious.

John: That sounds awesome. Very cool. Very cool. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Paul: Star Wars for sure ’cause of the John Williams score. It’s just so fantastic. Both of them though, there’s been so many remakes. I can’t keep up. I like the first versions of all of that, but they’ve kind of gone off the deep end with the different remakes and so forth.

John: You’re right. I mean, John Williams definitely puts it over the top. I mean, yeah, he’s amazing. How about puzzles? Sodoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzle?

Paul: They all make me crazy. So, none.

John: None of the above. Perfect.

Paul: My wife does puzzles and I live through her.

John: Right. There you go. There you go. All right. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Paul: Definitely Mac just because, you know, used to spend so much time fixing or having bugs in the PC that it’s so nice to just like not worry about it. The firewall is done.

John: That’s hilarious. The propaganda that Apple has put out is still going strong. It’s awesome.

Paul: Exactly. Exactly.

John: It’s so awesome.

Paul: And it’s beautiful, and it’s beautiful.

John: They’re nice looking machines. That’s for sure. This is a good one. Toilet paper roll over or under?

Paul: You know, this is actually a serious issue with me. Over. Over. Under is impossible. It’s impossible. And you know what? Actually, my wife likes under and I like over, so we keep switching each other’s toilet papers.

John: Are you switching around?

Paul: That’s true. It’s a major issue for me. This is a major issue.

John: Amen, man. I’m with you on that one. For sure.

How about ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Paul: Cone for sure. Sugar cone, waffle cone. Waffle cone.

John: Ah, yeah, there you go.

Paul: If you go for it, you might as well go for it.

John: Yeah, you might as well go big.

Paul: Chocolate covered. Chocolate-covered waffle cones.

John: There we go. That seems to be one of the more popular. I’m a big fan of in the cup, but also with the cone. So then, yeah, you don’t lose any dripping around like yeah. Everybody wins on that one. This was a fun one somebody threw at me and I like bringing it back. Socks or shoes?

Paul: Oh, flip-flops and short socks. What are those? Like little ankle socks.

John: Oh, the little ankle socks with flip-flops. Okay.

Paul: No, no, no, no, no. One or the other.

John: Oh, one or the other. Okay. All right. Right. But flip-flops is probably the answer.

Paul: Yeah. The short socks are nice. Yeah. You know?

John: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But yeah. Okay. All right. Oh, this is a fun one. What’s a typical breakfast?

Paul: You know, I don’t eat breakfast because it makes me tired. I get sleepy. So if I eat breakfast, I’m usually taking a nap at 10 a.m., so it’s not good.

John: Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. There we go.

Paul: Coffee.

John: Coffee. Just straight coffee. All right.

Paul: That’s my preference. Yeah.

John: Okay. That works. How about a favorite number?

Paul: 7 because that’s my birthdate and it’s been lucky. I know it’s a favorite of a lot of people, but it’s always done me well.

John: It’s a good number. That’s for sure. We got three more. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Paul: Real. I like to feel it. I also like reading the real paper even though I have it on my phone. I like to be able to smell the ink on your hands.

John: Totally. I mean, it’s just, I guess, tradition. I don’t know. I’m just used to it more. I’m the same. Yeah, for sure. Two more. How about a favorite food?

Paul: Indian. I love Indian food.

John: Oh, okay.

Paul: Yeah. If I had to choose one forever and ever, it would be Indian for sure.

John: There you go. With some ice cream at the end.

Paul: Yeah, exactly.

John: Right. and then the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own. Like the house catches on fire, you go and grab or is there something cool or—

Paul: You know, it’s funny you ask it that way because I don’t have anything that I’m so tied to that I can’t do without, you know. Relationships, your mind, your mental, you know— my memory, I guess, is one favorite thing I own for now anyway.

John: Yeah. Right. Right. What’s left of it, right? No, no, that’s great. That’s an awesome answer. Absolutely. Your memory and your mind of course going along with that, so yeah. So let’s talk people watching, observing, what have you. Is this something that you got into recently or something you’ve been doing since you were younger?

Paul: Yeah. Ever since I was a kid— I grew up in Baltimore, so the inner city, and we had the famous white marble steps. We were on row homes where you can stretch your hands across and reach both walls and like you’re stacked next to each other. And it used to be the time where people actually sat on their steps or they called them in Baltimore stoops. They sat on their stoops. And I just go up and down the street when everyone was hanging out because we didn’t have air conditioning, we didn’t have the internet, we didn’t have Netflix. You know, like you actually went and talked to people, you know, sat outside and visited.

John: Was it uphill both ways on your street too?

Paul: I actually did live on a hill, so yeah. Yeah. Just like talk to people and figure out what made them tick. And that actually stuck with me the rest of my life. I mean, I love people watching. I’m to a point where I’m obsessed about it. Even going to a restaurant, my wife or whoever I’m with will be like “Hello! I’m over here.” And it’s like “Yeah, but do we know what’s going on behind us?”

John: Right? There’s like a whole sitcom happening.

Paul: Exactly. It’s fascinating.

John: That’s so cool. And I bet a lot of those people you still remember them because you do know what made them tick. You actually knew them as opposed to just “Hi, Ms. Johnson” or whatever.

Paul: Yeah. It’s people watching, but also understanding people. Right? So it is that deeper thing. And I think that had my life been a little different, I might have gone into sociology or psychology. But you know, I guess to your point also with your book and the and, it’s like maybe I don’t wanna do that as a career. Maybe I just like to do it on my own as a hobby so that it’s more fun and I don’t have to make money at it. I can just enjoy it.

John: Right. ‘Cause that is the thing. Trust me. I mean, when you make the leap to it’s your profession, it’s less enjoyable. I mean, you still enjoy it, but there’s some pressure now because you gotta pay the mortgage and all that stuff. And that’s awesome though. I mean, from when you were a kid and then growing up. I mean, now you’re in LA, which is— I mean that’s people watching heaven right there.

Paul: People watching Mecca.

John: Right. Right.

Paul: And yeah, I mean, ever since I was a kid, like you said, but then I also studied conducting and I was a conductor for about 10 years. And that people watching it, it’s not just people watching, but it’s really locking into who needs you, what their body language is, what they’re saying. You know? So really having that nuance of sound, of tone, of stature, of whatever and really locking into what people need at any given moment. I had to do that as a profession, you know, as sort of as part of the profession. And then as a consultant, a business consultant, do the same thing. You gotta come in and figure out what’s what, like who’s telling the lies, who’s telling the truth, who’s kind of making in between. And I still use it today as COO just to manage the team and manage individuals rather than say “Well, everyone’s the same. So, you know, this is how I’m gonna do it.”

And it’s, again, something that I did as a kid that I never thought about, but I use every day. And actually, you made me dig deeper and really realize how obsessed I am and how much I actually do it. I probably should see somebody about it, but—

John: Just see yourself. Right? No, I mean, I appreciate that, but yeah. But also then you not only understood how obsessed you are with it, but also how much you use it in your career as well because that’s the thing with the and. You know, it’s just something we do ’cause we enjoy it and then what takes someone to point out like or ask “Well, how does this play into your corporate career?” And it’s like “I didn’t think it— Oh, wait, it does actually. That’s pretty neat.” It’s just a cool little thing to step back and just realize that you’re not doing it because it enhances your career. It’s just a cool byproduct. And yeah, I could imagine. I mean, I was in the band all the way through college. And yeah, I mean, the conductor could see everything I was doing. Completely goofing around. I was a trombone player. So, of course, I was goofing around. It came with the instrument. I had to, but they could always tell. And it’s like “Ah, no matter how high I lifted my music stand, it’s like damn it.”

Paul: They knew you were reading magazines back there and not paying attention.

John: Right. They knew something like ” John, what are you doing? And I’m like “Ah, man! Like come on.” That’s so cool. And so, I guess do you have any like cooler, rewarding stories from, I guess, maybe growing up or some of the characters that you’ve met along your career or along your life from observing?

Paul: What I’ve taken away is that every person has got a story. Right? And that’s what makes it so fantastic. I think sometimes we think, well, you know, only really important people, or only celebrities, or only this or that are important or interesting. And this is actually kind of what drives me crazy about pop culture, right, because we all fixate on those one or two celebrities or the one who’s in the news now like Johnny Depp. It’s like there’s so many more interesting people in the world. And we often sort of dismiss like the person who checks you in at the hotel or whoever, but everyone’s got a story and everyone’s got sort of dysfunctional something or other that’s interesting. Right?

John: Yeah. I mean, good or bad, either way, it’s interesting.

Paul: Yeah. And so, I think if you have that kind of sense, then you’re not always looking for something. You’re luxuriating in the people that you’re meeting all the time.

John: Yeah. They’re all around us. And I mean, especially at work. I mean, you know, just asking simply what’s your and or what lights you up when you’re not at work. I mean, it’s amazing when I work with companies and speak at events. All of a sudden, it’s like I had no idea that all of this was around me and I’ve worked here for eight years. And you’re like “Well, get on it then.”

Paul: Yeah. And even, you know, at work as well as in interviews before they even come to your job. I mean, it’s funny. I was actually in a day of interviews today interviewing for some positions and he asked the regular questions. And at the end, I asked him a few fun questions like, you know, “Okay. So, outside of work, like what do you do for fun? Like what is your driver?” And all of a sudden, they’re almost like surprised. Like they relaxed. They’re surprised that I’m asking them about something personal that they actually enjoy, and it changes the dynamic right away. And then I also ask if they like hamburgers and how they build their favorite hamburger, you know.

John: Right. ‘Cause I’m 100% judging you for that.

Paul: Exactly. You’re gonna get this job based on what you put on that hamburger. But you know, it’s to see if they’re curious, creative, but yeah, the sort of the fun thing. Unfortunately, we don’t talk about that. Like we don’t talk about what we do in our personal life. I guess part of that is all the HR lawyers telling us we can’t ask this, we can’t ask that. Like we’ve gotten to such a point like we don’t wanna say anything ’cause we don’t wanna be taken to court over something we ask, which is unfortunate.

John: Yeah. But I love that during the interview ’cause cause then it’s, you know, I’m gonna be around this person more waking hours than my family. So I’d like to know who you are. And also, if you’re all work all the time, that’s a pretty big red flag because you’re gonna burn out and you’re not a real human. You’re not being honest with yourself. You’re not being honest with me. And yeah, I just don’t think this is gonna work, you know, type of thing.

Paul: Or if their favorite thing is throwing rocks at squirrels, that’s probably a red flag too.

John: Or there’s that. Yeah. There’s also that, or something illegal or taboo, or Skippy, but I love that you ask that, you know, because it matters. I mean, people have expertise that they get from their and that “Oh, that’s good to know. I’ll remember that.” You know, things like that. And that’s cool ’cause you’re hiring the whole person, not just the work part.

Paul: Yeah. I mean, you spend most of your life at work and so with the people that you’re working with. It’s almost like a best friend or a family. Well, maybe not family ’cause not every family wants to hang around each other all the time. But yeah, it is about the whole human being. And you know, people are what make businesses successful, not businesses, not the widgets that they sell, but it’s the people who are involved and their commitment to each other, their excitement of working together.

And yeah, I mean, I think culture is everything and it does come from within like who are you and then who are you in comparison to others who are working with you.

John: Collective. Yeah. No, I love that so much. So much. And I mean, that’s partially with Cowboys & Conductors.

Paul: Exactly.

John: I mean, you know, humanship, which I love that phrase. And if you wanna describe it to everybody listening.

Paul: Yeah. Well, the book is about how my colleague, co-author, Dustin, who’s a true American cowboy horse whisperer— how he works with horses because horses don’t say “Hey, I need some food”, or “Hey, I need this”, or “Hey, I need that.” You have to understand. You have to feel the nuance. You have to feel the body language. And you also have to be centered and present as well so that you can have that sort of unspoken dialogue going on. And that’s horsemanship, you know, to be able to do things with a horse without beating them, whipping them. And humanship is the same thing. You know, being present with each other, really trying to meet people where they are, understand the nuances of what makes them tick.

Not only like you said from professional, but the personal, the drivers, and locking into that and then understanding how you can let them sort of move about and move freely, but also empower them and really truly lock into their energy. But to do that, you have to be centered, and you have to have your own grounded energy and your own grounded framework. And that’s what the book is about. I mean, it’s really more about how do we live, and work, and operate in this world of gray. And so, you know, you can’t just kind of flail around and you can’t just sort of say “Well, this is the path. I’m going that way. To hell with everything else.”

John: Yeah. Not everything is black and white. Most things are gray like you said.

Paul: Exactly. Most things are gray, but you have to have some kind of framework, some kind of foundation. And then that’s what we have talked about in the book, which is gray leadership. You know, this gray leadership and there are ways that you can set a foundation just like you would a house. Right? You can build awesome 2 or 3 stories on top of this foundation, but the foundation is weak or the foundation crumbles, then it doesn’t matter how awesomely built the other floors are. And it’s the same thing with this gray leadership. Like if you can set a foundation and set a framework, then you can pile on anything on top of it, anything good or bad, and react in the moment, you know. And so, it’s that really just kind of being in the moment with people or with horses in Dustin’s case and locking into that natural energy.

John: Yeah. And just having a genuine interest in the people. You know, just care. I mean, it’s so simple, but not easy, I think, for people. I mean, in the same way that Dustin cares about the horses, like we should care about our people, and that’s amazing how much that’s hard or doesn’t happen.

Paul: We also tend to hang around and collect people as friends or colleagues who are like us. Like we just do that naturally as human beings. And so, you know, our point is why don’t you make a beeline for somebody at a party who is completely opposite of you, whatever that means, like a different profession, a different race, a different ethnicity, a different whatever, and go and talk to them. Right? And that’s what people keep saying is like “How did you guys meet? Like what is conductors and cowboys— I mean, what’s the connection?” It’s like “Right. There’s seemingly no connection, yet there is this completely deep connection because we decided to explore each other’s background and lives.”

John: Yeah. And if you’re having a hard time finding somebody, just ask Paul ’cause he’s already observed everyone at the party, and he will point you in the right direction.

Paul: ‘Cause that could be a part-time gig. Right?

John: That could be. Absolutely.

Paul: Cruise director for people.

John: It takes me to like the Love Boat type of scene, but that’s awesome, man. Like I love that philosophy and how it’s all in the same vein, in the same direction of What’s Your “And”? and it’s bringing human to work and operating in that kind of squishy gray area, like you said. So I love that you’re able to help people with that.

Paul: It is figuring out or at least asking about their and, right? We often go to a party or a meeting. It’s like “What do you do?” And what do you do is one thing. I mean, what do you do is so small in scope, but what are you, who are you, what is your and, what drives you, sort of that is so much more important. And you know, I’ve talked to a lot of CEOs of companies, especially like family companies where they’ve sort of ascended to the throne because of their father, or grandfather, or whatever grandmother. And they’re just like “Well, I’ve gotta take over this company ’cause that’s what we do. That’s who our family is.” And I asked them, you know, “What do you love to do? Like what drives you? Is it manufacturing? Do you like just love manufacturing?” He’s “Not really.” And that usually is tied to the failure of their company because they’re not excited about it.

So they’re not really putting the passion and time into it. And there’s a direct correlation to your point between the end and the bottom line. And we don’t think about it that way. We think this and thing is squishy and the gray leadership is— like that’s bluff. Talk to me about the numbers. You gotta talk about the squishy stuff. The squishy stuff will give you the hard stuff about the numbers. There’s the direct correlation that a lot of folks don’t understand or don’t want to believe.

John: I love that so much. And there’s a company that I was reading about recently. It’s called Perrin. It’s a company that’s like helping people see the skills that they get from different jobs even when they’re flipping burgers at McDonald’s, what that translates to in the future. But they refer to these as essential skills. They’re not soft skills. They’re essential skills because the hard skills, in about 10 years, the computer’s gonna do all of those. So the others actually become essential. And I love that. You know, just those essential skills that we all need to have. And yeah, it’s just awesome to hear that parallel ’cause everyone’s either ridden a horse, or seen a horse, or seen a horse movie, or something. The Kentucky Derby, I mean, they’re massive animals and they’re so just majestic. But to be able to tame them and to bring them in, it’s a really cool skillset to have, and humans aren’t much different as wild horses really.

Paul: Kind of what you said is how we have to reframe it. So it’s not about taming this wild beast. This beast is an awesome, fantastic beast just like humans are. Right? And so, when you beat a horse, when you kick it with your spurs, it eventually resigns and sort of stops, and do people. The more you micromanage people, the more you yell at them, there’s a point where they give up. And as opposed to giving them more responsibility, investing more into them, then they sort of on their own blossom, and so do horses. And so, it’s really so many times— and we think about this with relationships too. Like we think if we could just squeeze them and hold them tighter, then they’ll love us more, you know.

John: Right.

Paul: It just doesn’t work.

John: No, their heads pop off.

Paul: Right. Exactly. It doesn’t work that way.

John: Right.

Paul: So why do we keep trying to do that? Like let ’em go. Let ’em blossom. They’ll come back. It’s that saying like if you love something, set it free. If it comes back, you know, it was yours. If it doesn’t, it never was. And that’s a wise saying. And it’s the same kind of philosophy that you gotta let people move around. You know, horses, I found out that when they are fearful of something, they need to move their feet. Like they need to run away from it and then they’ll get to a safe distance and look back, okay, like what was that thing that scared me and then they’ll slowly come back and assess what’s going on. But if you try to hold them from running away, then they’ll kick, and bite, and could actually kill you right in the moment. Same thing with people.

John: Right.

Paul: You gotta let ’em run away. You gotta let ’em go off the deep end for a few days, few moments, and they’ll come back around because that’s how we operate. We need to sometimes just run away from the thing that scares us, but it doesn’t mean that you’re running away forever.

John: No, I love that and yeah. And just harness the talents and the skills and find the right channel to just go ’cause it’s amazing, if you’re able to do that, what can happen.

Paul: Yeah. It’s a trust thing. Right? And then that goes back to being centered yourself ’cause the people who micromanage feel like there’s some sort of insecurity that they have within themselves that they need to then micromanage others so that there’s a control and it just doesn’t work. It’s never worked. You know, I’m dealing with that all this week. It’s like managers who they feel like control is— And as long as I can see you working, then you’re doing a good job. But like if you’re working remotely or if I can’t see what you’re doing, then you obviously must not be working.

John: Even though the finished product is there, but, well, your Keebler elves might have done it. I don’t know. It’s like “Okay, like whatever.” That’s hilarious, man. Such good nuggets, man. Really, really great advice for people listening. Just rewind the last like 10 minutes, and re-listen, and put that into work at your work. Put that into action. So that’s awesome, man. Well, I feel like before wrapping this up, it’s only fair since I peppered you with questions at the beginning that maybe we turned the tables, make this the first episode of The Paul Jan Zdunek podcast. So I’m all yours, man.

Paul: Well, you started in accounting, right? And a lot of people— even I get this still today, it’s like accounting, they’re boring. They just keep their heads down. They’re just bean counters. But you know, obviously, you are not. And how did you make that leap from bean counting to standup comedy?

John: Yeah. Well, you know, it was just always— I was just me in all of the places even when I was at work.

You know, I still had a personality, still had a sense of humor. And when I would ask people in all the careers or even clients that I was visiting through PWC and what have you, it was like “What do you do”, and they’re like “Well, I take this spreadsheet.” “No, I know what that is. Like who are you? Like who else are you?” And it was just so cool to see all the people around us. And so, I was just doing comedy at night for fun. It was just a creative, fun hobby and just an outlet. And then I accidentally got good. And you know, the profession and I decided I should take my talents elsewhere. So then, I went comedy full time. But yeah, I mean, I don’t recommend people do it full time as your hobby ’cause you’re probably not that good at it because that’s why it’s a hobby.

Paul: Yeah. As we talked about earlier, I mean, did that hobby then start seeming like a burden because it was a career?

John: Very much. And so, you have to have an and, another and. You know, it was college football, ice cream, going to concerts. You know, all that’s been always a part of me, but comedy is one that I guess stood out more. But yeah, you have to have those outlets and those things where you’re able to turn your brain off, you’re able to do something, that pure joy. Like I try to tell people like when you talk about work, sometimes it’s fun, but sometimes it’s not. But when I’m talking about going to a concert, it’s always fun. Like it’s always fun. And you can tell when people are talking about their and. Like they light up, their eyes get bigger and yeah.

And certainly, I mean, I did plenty of comedy gigs like a bar at a bowling alley for 100 bucks ’cause, yeah, I need 100 bucks on a Wednesday or a bar where like a football game’s on on like Monday night football and they’re like “Hey, can you turn the comedy down ’cause we’re trying to listen to football?” I mean, just all kinds of stuff like where people are playing pool and they won’t stop playing pool. And it’s like, well, that’s kind of annoying when you’re telling jokes. I mean, all kinds of crazy. But I mean, of course, also really cool big shows and comedy clubs, but you have to work your way up.

Paul: So when people actually were listening to you, was there a moment that just like totally flopped like you’re like I gotta get outta here, that totally landed wrong?

John: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. All the time. Because if you’re not doing that, then you’re not pushing yourself. You know, if you’re playing safe and just doing only the stuff that works, well, then you’re not gonna grow, you know, and you’ll never get new material. And so, yeah. I mean, there’s certainly been plenty of times where I’ve just bombed and I’m just like—

Paul: How do you get out of it?

John: I mean, sometimes it’s fun to be like “Well, I thought that was hilarious. Nobody else— Okay.” You know? And then typically, once you get stronger, your miss is not as far off. Like you’re at least hitting the dart board now, but then you always have a really good joke right after it. So then, even if I lost him for 30 seconds or a minute, I’m gonna get you right back with this half marathon bit. So here we go.

Paul: You’ve gotta have an escape path, I guess, escape—

John: Yeah. Yeah. Or you just call it out and be like “Hey, you know, that was a new one. And apparently, I need to work on it.” Or it’s the other way around. And it’s like first show Friday laughed for about an hour on that joke. That’s on you guys. Like I don’t know what to tell you. You want me to tell it again? I’ll tell it again. Here we go. You know, like I’m just having fun with it type of thing. But yeah, I mean, certainly. Even when I lived in New York, I’ve seen Chris Rock and Gaffigan and, you know, people come in and Seinfeld. And you’re like “Oh man, everything…” No, they’re trying out new stuff. And you know, their miss is still pretty close to the bullseye, but it’s still like “What the hell is that?” You know? “Like I should write for you.” No. But you’re growing and that’s how you get more stuff.

Paul: Yeah. Awesome. Well, that’s a big deal to put yourself out there like that, you know. It’s not easy to do that because, you know, just like being a musician, people are judging you on you’re inside and not what you do. Right? It’s who you are as a person, what your emotions and your intellect. And it’s much more personal when things don’t go well and also much more personal when things go well. It’s euphoria, right?

John: Yeah. No, it really is ’cause you’re the product.

Paul: Yeah, exactly.

John: That’s what’s hard about it. Yeah, it’s not just “Oh, this pen is terrible.” It’s like No, you are terrible.” And it’s like “Wait, what? Like as a person? Ugh.”

Paul: That’s why people say as a musician, actor, comedian, whenever you’re doing something like that, if you don’t absolutely love it and if it’s not something you have to do, then don’t because the criticism personally will tear you down in a second.

John: Yeah. I mean, you dealt with that with your music side. And I mean, every single day, someone punches you in the face, every day, whether it’s an audience member, or it’s a booker, or it’s a comedy club manager, or it’s somebody telling you that you are not good enough. And so, you just have to have that inner fortitude, or that confidence, or enough good shows that you can go back and listen and be like “No, no, no, I am good enough. That’s just on you.”

This was hilarious. There was a comedy club that I was trying to get into. This was back in the day where you could burn your own DVD. So I burned my own DVD and I sent it along with here’s a list of all the comedy clubs I’ve done. And the guy watches, and he calls me, and he says “Hey, that accountant character you’re trying to do is very annoying.” And I’m like “That’s not a character, man. That’s just me.”

Paul: You’re very annoying.

John: Right? Exactly. And I was like “I’m not Larry, the cable guy, who’s not a cable guy at all.” He’s like an IT guy from Nebraska, but like that’s a character. This was me. Like I’m being me. And he’s telling me that that’s annoying. And it’s like “Well, I guess I’m not going to Cleveland.” It’s like “All right.” Yeah, man, it’s hard. It’s hard for sure. Well, this has been so great, Paul. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? Really, really awesome.

Paul: My pleasure. Hope to do it again.

John: Absolutely. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Paul outside of work, or maybe connect with him on social media, or get a copy of the book, Cowboys & Conductors: Conversations on Horseman-Humanship, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check Paul’s book like I said.

So thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use, and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 517 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And normally right now, I plug the award-winning book What’s Your “And”?, but I wanna take a moment to talk about globaldogart.com where all the proceeds go towards saving 1 million dogs by 2030. And did you know that research has shown that pictures of dogs increase our well-being, reduce stress, foster social connections, promote trusting relationships in business settings? And Michael Puck, who was a guest on the show, his and was dog photography. And his pictures are amazing. But now, he’s teamed up with other dog photographers all over the world for globaldogart.com. Check it out. Support someone’s “and” and help out a really great cause. And please don’t forget to subscribe with the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every weekend.

And this week is no different with my guest, Carolyn Ellis. She’s a trainer, coach, and author of the award-winning book, lead conversations that count how busy managers run great meetings. She’s out of Toronto, Canada. And now, she’s with me here today. Carolyn, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Carolyn: I am so looking forward to our conversation, John. Thanks for having me.

John: Me too. This is gonna be so much fun. And we’re friends outside of this, which is great. And I have 17 rapid fire questions that I probably should have asked you years ago when we first met, but now’s the time, so here we go. We’ll start— Maybe this is an easy one. I don’t know. Law and Order or Suits?

Carolyn: Oh, man. You know, I never got into either of them.

John: Oh, okay. All right. Fair enough. Suits was filmed in Toronto, so that’s why I thought it’d be a slam dunk.

Carolyn: I know. Well, you know, I’m a little over Meghan Markle a bit these days, so maybe that’s another issue.

John: Right. This was pre-royal Megan.

Carolyn: Exactly.

John: Yeah. It’s tainted now. Fair enough. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Carolyn: Absolutely Mac. Used to be a PC girl.

John: Wow. Okay.

Carolyn: Used to be and then it was just constantly updating right when I was in the middle of like major things. And I got an IT guy and switched over to Mac and, ugh, love it, love it, love it.

John: Wow. Good for you. Okay. How about more of a shower or bath?

Carolyn: Well, shower.

John: Yeah, just efficiency. Bam. There it is.

Carolyn: Also live in a house right now where I don’t have a bath, so that’s another factor.

John: Oh, that makes it easier.

Carolyn: But I do live across from Lake Ontario, so I could have a bath technically if I wanted to.

John: Oh, that’s amazing. Okay.

Carolyn: And I do sometimes. Yeah. Just wander on over there before dinner, have a quick bath in the lake.

John: Right. No, Lake Ontario is awesome.

Carolyn: Oh, it’s beautiful.

John: Yeah. So beautiful. I’m a huge ice cream junkie. So when you get ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Carolyn: Oh, it’s a tough one. I think there’s a lot of pressure when you’ve got it in a cone like that you don’t lose it or crack it. And I really like to get every single drop. So I’ve migrated to being a cup girl. I could just lick that spoon and just stick my whole snout in the cup.

John: Right. There it is. There it is. Totally. I agree 100%. How about a favorite animal? Like any animal.

Carolyn: Ooh, you know, dogs. I love dogs. I mean, we’re sharing about your friend Michael and what his dogs like— Scribble down that URL. I’m gonna go check it out. I’ve got a Golden Doodle and I’ve had dogs for years and years growing up. So they are amazing creatures.

John: Yeah. No they really, really are. I totally agree. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or a jigsaw puzzle?

Carolyn: I’m a big fan of jigsaw puzzles and I do them actually on my iPad.

John: Oh.

Carolyn: Yeah. There’s an app I use called Magic Puzzles, and it’s super fun because you don’t know what the picture is, and you can dial up. Do you want the pieces to move? Like you can rotate them. Do you wanna do like the 48-size version or do you wanna go for like the 500 little pieces? So you can dial up or down your level of difficulty, and it’s super fun.

John: You don’t even know the picture. That’s wild. Okay.

Carolyn: You don’t even know the picture. And then if you get really stuck, there’s a little magic button where you can say “How about you just like float 10 pieces into this corner here ’cause I’m just like really frustrated right now?” So I love that too.

John: I’m gonna throw my iPad if you don’t give me 10.

Carolyn: Yeah. As opposed to like just clearing the table of a real physical jigsaw puzzle.

John: Oh, that’s interesting. Very cool. How about a favorite color?

Carolyn: I love a lot of colors I’d say.

John: That’s fine. I’ll give you more than one.

Carolyn: I love vibrant colors. My favorite, I think right now I’m in the mood for are like teal. So think about like a Robin’s egg kind of color. And you know, again, this lake, man, sometimes it’s like a deep, deep blue or like a greeny blue, and I’m really vibing in that sort of blue green, teal-y zone.

John: Yeah. I love it. How about a least favorite color?

Carolyn: Oh, least favorite color I would say is the color of an old dog turd that’s on a sidewalk after a rainy day when somebody stepped in it with a newspaper. Like that kind of gray brown, mushy— Yeah, that color.

John: That is by far the least popular color. It’s amazing how much just brown or any version of brown comes out.

Carolyn: Brown. Like what was that? Yeah.

John: Not good.

Carolyn: Just walk around it.

John: That’s hilarious. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Carolyn: Favorite adult beverage. Oh, man. I just recently bought myself a cocktail book when I was visiting New York, and I’m not much of a mixologist, but I did recently get into Singapore slings, which is something that my parents, growing up at the cottage, all the adults used to get really snuckered with Singapore slings. I’m like “What was that drink?”

John: Yeah. I’ve never even heard of that.

Carolyn: Yeah. There’s a lot of ingredients, but very tasty. It goes down too smoothie.

John: There you go. That explains it. And there you go. Now, you’re the one getting snuckered and it’s all good.

Carolyn: Exactly. Just trying to honor my parents. Yes.

John: This one’s for you. No, totally. How about are you more talk or text?

Carolyn: I do both. I prefer talking ’cause I like the connection better. And also, sometimes texting is just— That damn autocorrect, you know, just gets me so many times. It’s like “No! Stupid.” So yeah, it kind of trips me up a bit.

John: That’s funny. How about— This one’s gonna be a hard one. Do you have a favorite actor or an actress?

Carolyn: I would say I really— like Emma Thompson lately, man.

John: Oh, yeah. Okay.

Carolyn: She’s so fantastic. And she’s been around for such a long time. She’s super funny. I, you know, have seen some of the old stuff that she used to do with like Hugh Laurie. Like she’s just so wildly talented. And then her latest movie, I dunno if you’ve seen it yet, it was Good Luck to You, Leo Grande, about this older woman’s—

John: I haven’t seen it yet. No.

Carolyn: Oh, such a great performance. I mean, it’s a great film. It’s a great story, but she just really went for it. And she can play serious. She can play crazy and manic.

John: Yeah. The Cruella de Vil movie proved it.

Carolyn: Oh, her Cruella was— How she was in that movie was just amazing.

John: She’s on Fallon doing the rap battles and stuff. Like she’s so good.

Carolyn: She just goes all in.

John: Yeah.

Carolyn: Yeah.

John: Really good.

Carolyn: She’s like no holds barred. I really admire that in her.

John: Yeah, totally. No, great answer. Totally. Are you more heels or flats?

Carolyn: Well, my osteoarthritis in my left foot has determined that heels are out of my shelf. Like I cannot do that anymore. So flats are fine. I’m a tall girl. So I’m 5 feet 10. So I’ve spent a lot of time trying to unlearn the slouching I developed as a teenager to try to fit in with everybody else. So yeah, I’m more on the flats side.

John: Nice. Okay. Okay. Fair enough. How about season, summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Carolyn: I love them all, you know, and I love the transition. I love it when you wake up on a summer day and you’re like “Ooh, I’m smelling fall.” It’s just got that Christmas in the air. I live in a part of the country where we have colors changing and the trees go. And I love me a good winter crisp walk with the dog on the beach. Awesome.

John: All right. All of them. Just in case they’re listening, none of them are left out and they’re all—

Carolyn: No. I did mention spring, which is when I was born ’cause that’s usually a bit of a mixed bag. It’s like that’s when a lot of that brown stuff shows up on the sidewalk or leftover after the winter snow.

John: Also, it’s like so short in Canada ’cause it’s like winter—

Carolyn: And then all of a sudden, like “Oh, you’re in summer now.” And the flowers are going like “Hey, what? Already?”

John: Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Carolyn: Bye.

John: Right. Yeah. No, I can totally see that. How about you have a favorite number?

Carolyn: My favorite number is 4.

John: Okay. Is there a reason?

Carolyn: And I don’t know why. I grew up my sister, and I, and my parents. So there was like always a four. And there’s just something kind of interesting about 4 for me.

John: Yeah. No. That makes sense. Totally. How about least favorite vegetable?

Carolyn: Least favorite vegetable. Ooh, I’ve been doing so good on getting my veggies.

John: I’ve done like 47.

Carolyn: You do, ei?

John: No. Probably three I can think of right now off the top of my head.

Carolyn: Gosh. You know, I would have to say I was gonna put Brussel sprouts in there, but I’ve learned to really love Brussel sprouts roasted with a little balsamic on it.

John: Yeah. You gotta do some work, but they’ll get there.

Carolyn: You know what? I’d have to say like really, really bitter greens.

John: Ah, yeah. Okay.

Carolyn: I need me some soft sauce up in there with the arugula just to break up that bitterness a little bit. So I don’t hate it, but it’s like that—

John: Yeah. No. I agree. Totally. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Carolyn: Oh, I love me a real book ’cause I’m very kinesthetic like I like to have a pen in my hand, but I get too many of them. So I’m trying to be a little more minimalist and then I’ve been going a little bit more e-Book, but I find I don’t remember them as well. You know, that’s the problem. And thankfully, Amazon will remind me. It’s like “You’ve already purchased this book in 2019. ” It’s like “Really? Dang! I should go read it then.”

So still working that out.

John: Yeah. ‘Cause they’re stored up in the cloud and you haven’t downloaded it to the device yet, so you forget that you have it.

Carolyn: Yeah. It’s not like you can flip through the pages and see how many treasures I have yet to read.

John: What does it look like? Yeah, exactly.

Carolyn: Exactly.

John: And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Carolyn: The favorite thing I have, it’s not like a possession, but it’s a patio in the place that I live right now. It’s a deck and I look across the street and then there’s like a green boulevard. There’s the boardwalk, there’s the beach, and there’s the Lake. So I can literally see, you know, Oh my gosh, there are white cups.” I’ll be on my couch in my living room’s like just checking out. It’s so great. You know, I just love having that kind of like nature’s— like living right in it. Even though I live in a really big city, it feels like I’m up in cottage country and I’m like in a huge urban city.

John: Right. That’s fantastic. So let’s talk musical theater.

Carolyn: Yeah.

John: How did you get started with that? Was it something that you like grew up doing or was it more later in life?

Carolyn: It was something that I grew up always wanting to do, but I was always really intrigued in high school with like plays and things. I was like “Oh, that would be so much fun”, but I would always chicken out. So I would do stage makeup for the theater or I’d play my flute in the pit band.

John: Oh, okay.

Carolyn: I’d get close, but I always kind of hover around the periphery.

John: Right.

Carolyn: And then like when I was in like my 40s, my kids were getting older and stuff, my chiropractor was like “Oh, you should come to see this musical I’m in.” I’m like “Wait, what? Like an old dude, like you can be in a musical? Like tell me more.” And so, he introduced me to his musical director who, a couple years later, she started and it was basically formed by a bunch of adults who were sitting in the hallway of some gym watching their kids have a great time with her doing their musical theater stuff. And they’re like “Why can’t we do this?” So that’s what we are. We’re just a bunch of middle-aged and older people who some have had some experience, most of us have had very little except for singing in the van, and yeah. So I’ve been with this group for about 6-7 years, 6-7 productions. One of the joys is my daughter is also in the cast and she’s like one of the most talented people in the whole— Like she just raises the level of leadership up in all of us.

John: Okay.

Carolyn: Yeah, it was something that I always like wanted to do, but just kept saying “Nah, you’re not good enough. Nah, you don’t know how to dance. No, you don’t know how to sing.” So just saying no and then just finally saying “Well, what if I tried it?” And it was like “Oh, my God, I love this.”

John: Yeah. That’s so fantastic. So it’s like one show a year kind of idea?

Carolyn: One show a year. We do one show a year. So usually, of course, the pandemic has messed all of this up. So we’re just waiting to see when we can get back on track. But usually, we start rehearsals sort of end of September-October, performance 3 days. And it’s all for charity as well. So we raised money to support art space programming for kids in remote communities in Northern Canada and also in Africa. And so, we perform end of January. 3 nights usually sold out. So it feels good. And it’s always a process like, you know, “Am I gonna learn my lines? Like I don’t know how to do the choreography.” And any time you’re in a group with like 25 to 30 people doing something and it sort of feels a little pressurized, especially now with the pandemic, you know, we look back and like we’re so lucky to do this. I mean, we just get to be like goofball kids and just discover things about what you can do and like the kind of joy that you can have in your life. And it’s okay. Like you deserve to have some fun too.

John: Yeah, no, I love that. That’s so fantastic. Do you have a show that you’ve done that’s been one of your favorites or a role that you had?

Carolyn: Well, I think one of my most challenging and most favorite roles was in my most recent production. We were doing a bit of a mashup between like Robin Hood and Monty Python’s search for the Holy Grail. It was a bit of a mash up there. So I played a character of Rapunzel ’cause, of course, we had to have nursery rhyme characters in there as well. I was Rapunzel and I was also Rumpelstiltskin. So I had to puppeteer like an Avenue Q kind of puppet. So he was my husband. And so, you know, different voice. And I think the highlight for me was singing Do You Love Me as a duet from Fiddler on the Roof.

John: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. That will mess with your brain a little bit.

Carolyn: Yeah. It’s like chewing gum, patting your stomach, walking and, you know—

John: ‘Cause you have to do the puppet and both voices.

Carolyn: Yeah. And then your reaction to the puppet and then the puppet singing. And your face is supposed to be reacting differently. So it was a lot of fun. It was so great.

John: That sounds like a blast. And what a cool mashup. I mean, it reminds me of like Albert Brooks had like the Robin Hood movie back in the ’90s. You know, that was a hilarious movie and then to throw in also all these hilarious stuff is right up my alley. That sounds like so much fun.

Carolyn: It was very zany, very zany.

John: Yeah. And then it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t have to be perfect.

Carolyn: It doesn’t have to be perfect. And I think, you know, one of the things I really didn’t quite appreciate and totally love about community musical theater is the people in the audience. They’re not subscribers. They’re like your friends or your family, your colleagues, your neighbors, and they are so rooting for your success. And so, there’s like this amazing reciprocity of like you just wanna leave it all on the stage floor as we would say. And they’re just right there. And I was surprised actually. I have friends coming back year after year. They’re like “Oh, my God, like just going to these performances are like the most exciting.” I’m like “Really?” Like I just didn’t realize.

I think being in the theaters helped me kind of come out of like getting outta my own way in a way. It’s like “What are people gonna think?” People are going to be inspired. And this is what I think is so cool about what you do with your podcast, John, is when you are in your passion zone and you’re doing your and, like whatever it is, like for me, it’s the theater, like it just ignites something in people’s hearts around you to say like “Hey, you know, what could I do with that kind of energy? Like what would that look like for me?” So it’s a wonderful experience to have and to sort of pass that forward.

John: No, I agree totally. Just the energy and even just in the universe, I guess, you know, type of a thing of giving people permission to go do the thing that does light up their soul and does make you happy and brings you joy.

Carolyn: Just do it.

John: Like go do it. Yeah.

Carolyn: Like what are we waiting for?

John: Right?

Carolyn: Let’s go.

John: Yeah, exactly. No, such great advice. And do you feel like any of this translates to your work at all?

Carolyn: Actually, I’d never thought about it before. You ask me that question now, John. Oh, my gosh. Around the time I started doing the musical theater, I also made a pretty big pivot in my business. And one of the things I started to do was called graphic recording, which is drawing conversation in real time. And if I didn’t have that experience out there— ’cause what that is, like I have been at conferences where there’s like 1,500-2500 people, all kinds of luminaries on the stage. One day, I graphically recorded Michelle Obama and Joe Biden on the same day at two different events.

John: Oh, my goodness. Yeah.

Carolyn: The old Carolyn pre-theater experience would have been like “Oh no, like what are people gonna think of me? Am I doing this right?” And now, I’m just like I can be there in that space and it’s like “All right, let’s dance in this moment, and I’m gonna just go with it” and getting out of my own way of like “Did I do this right?” It’s just like that little inner chatter has just kind of fade into the background. When it comes up, I’ll just be like “Hey, how are you doing? You sit on the bench now. I got some work to do here. I gotta show up for these people.”

John: Yeah. Because it’s like I’ve exercised this muscle outside of work so then, when it’s at work, I can do this, you know, and I can make it happen.

Carolyn: And I think there’s something too about that experience of working with people and it’s not gonna be perfect right out of the gate. The second week of rehearsal, you’re just like “Oh, how are we ever gonna do this?” And it’s the same thing when you’re like at the jobs, right? Things are not gonna be perfect at the beginning, but to trust your team, and to work with each other, and to find like there’s alchemy that happens when you have goodwill, and good heart, and good intention and you work with each other. So I think that’s another thing that I really learned from my experiences with my troop.

John: Yeah.

Carolyn: Like you just don’t know. And if you think you know, you’re not thinking big enough.

John: Yeah. No. And it’s so true. And it’s not why you do musical theater, but it’s a cool byproduct of doing musical theater. It’s like no one during any of your education did anyone say go do musical theater ’cause it will make you better at your career.

Carolyn: No! And if you’ve mentioned it, they would have said “Well, that’s not very practical. That’s not gonna be a good way to earn a living.” And you would have just tamped it down. If you’re having joy in one part of your life, it spills over. And I think people feel that whether you’re in the theater, in a boardroom, at a conference. They’re like “I’ll have what she’s having.”

John: That’s so true. I mean, if you have joy in your life, like what lights up your soul? Like that’s deep.

Carolyn: Yeah.

John: Like someone that I had had on, Mark Winburn, another guest, he said it’s his breathing and happy. And I’m like “Wow. Like how rich is that?” It spills over, you know. If you’re living your best life, you’re gonna be doing your best work and that’s so good that you pointed that out. It’s so true. And I guess has this been typical for you to share your outside of work hobbies through your career or is it more that the musical theater was like “Hey, this is a cool thing that I’m doing”?

Carolyn: You know, I think when I started my career, I was very kind of buttoned down. I thought I had a personal life and there was a professional. And like I had an interest in things about consciousness and spirituality. I would never ever, ever talk about that at work ’cause like “Oh, no, that’s not rational.” And so, I kind of kept those realms separate. And I think whether it’s, as I’ve just progressed in my career, I don’t care as much what other people think about me, you know, than I did when I was in my 20s or 30s, or just having these experiences where you see like if you’re willing to really be out there, be authentic, be vulnerable, I know those are all clichés now, but really let people see you as a goofball and it doesn’t matter, it just opens up the space for them to be like “Oh, man, we need a little bit more lightheartedness here. Like let’s do some improvising, collaborating, like just riffing off of each other.”

That’s what brings more meeting and joy to the moment than like “Oh, wait, that’s not on our agenda for this meeting is to have this conversation.” It’s like “Well, I’m sorry. That protocol is dumb.” You know?

John: Right. Also, my agenda shows that it’s clearly here.

Carolyn: Yeah. Notice what’s going on in the room with a reaction here and can you respond to what’s actually here rather than to what our mental constructs have been? ‘Cause I really think with this pandemic, a lot of us are— You know, the wells of emotional resilience are pretty dry and we’re trying to find our way back. And these kinds of opportunities and moments, even just those little moments, it could just be a conversation in an elevator. Oh, remember the days we used to go to office buildings with elevators and people would be in them?

John: Right. It scares me when someone else comes out. I’m like “Whoa! Hey, I didn’t know you were gonna be here.”

Carolyn: Like “Whoa, what?” “It’s okay. We’re at 6 feet?” “Yeah.”

John: Like “Yeah. Yeah.”

Carolyn: That’s right. So I think, you know, people finding some solace in culture, and music, and those sort of shared experiences I think are really powerful. I’ve missed them and I’m enjoying getting back to them now.

John: Totally. No, it’s super important. Humans wanna be around other humans, you know. It’s just straight up we want to. And that’s how it goes, you know. And how much do you feel like it’s on leadership in whatever capacity to create this space for people to be able to share an and or how much is it on the individual to be like “Hey, like I’m just starting with my small circle up here and we’re gonna go from there”?

Carolyn: Ooh, I think it has to come probably from both. I mean, I think leaders need to create a space for that. And if they’re not creating some sort of space for their own to start showing up in how they lead, I think they’re missing the boat because people in the trenches on the team, those individual contributors, especially, again, pandemic has had a big impact on people saying like “What am I doing with my life? Is this what I wanna be doing? Like I got other things or places to go, people to be, and feelings to have rather than feeling like you’re a cog in the wheel.” I mean, I think that’s just really old style. I think there’s a shift in that, but it needs to be supported at the top and modeled at the top. Again, if it becomes a checkbox, we need to have time for people to share about their passions. You go first.

John: And I have a stopwatch, so you can’t go longer.

Carolyn: Yeah. You’ve taken too much time.

John: Right.

Carolyn: On to the next. Thank you for sharing. That was very moving.

John: Right.

Carolyn: You gotta mean it. Like your words and your energy have to be aligned.

John: That’s so true. That’s so true. I agree totally on that. And so, do you have any words of encouragement for anyone listening that feels like they have an and, but no one cares ’cause it has nothing to do with my job?

Carolyn: If you feel a niggling to explore some and, just find what is that one next baby step that you could do to explore, bringing a little bit more of that into your life. It’s not a big commitment. Like you’re not going to Broadway. I’m not going to Broadway, but just like what’s that next little tiny step and just give yourself permission to do that. I find sometimes those nigglings, if you ignore them, like they’re not inconsequential. I really feel it’s like your wisest, and best, and most expressed self is saying “Hey, let’s check out this fork in the road.” And if you don’t say yes, at some point, you’re gonna get like a smack upside the head somehow, which will say like “Oh, man, I should have learned how to take more time away from my work and to indulge in my passions ’cause now something calamitous has happened.” So just take a little baby step and have some fun with it. Be light with it. And if it’s not for you, you know.

John: Absolutely so true. So true, Carolyn. That’s so perfect. And I feel like before we wrap this up ’cause this has been so good, it’s only fair that I turn the tables and make this The Carolyn Ellis Podcast. Thanks for having me as a guest. And I’m all yours, whatever you wanna ask.

Carolyn: Well, thank you. John, it’s been a pleasure. I’m so glad you could be here with me today.

John: Right? I booked myself. I’m not gonna lie.

Carolyn: Yes. Yes.

John: Like I did.

Carolyn: I have two rapid fire questions for you. What is your biggest pet peeve that when you experience it, you say “Come on, seriously?”

John: Oh, wow. I have so many pet peeves.

Carolyn: Feel free to share more than one.

John: I mean, at an airport with your shoes off or on the airplane with your shoes off, or at the airport or anywhere on speaker phone. What are you doing? I don’t need to hear your conversation. Or listening to a video on max volume. Like I feel like it all boils down to inconsiderate behavior. Or like leaving a shopping cart just randomly. And I used to work at a grocery store, so I had to go get them. And now, it’s like “What are you doing? Why it’s 20 feet over there? Just go do it.” I think it’s inconsiderate behavior is really where it gets me.

Carolyn: Ooh. Those are really good ones. I hadn’t thought of them. Now, I’m feeling—

John: This is a thing now. We’re doing it.

Carolyn: Yeah, come on.

John: Okay. Like yeah.

Carolyn: Yeah.

John: I feel like the smartphones, you should have to take a test to whether or not you’re able to own a smartphone. Just because you have speakerphone doesn’t mean you should be on it at all. When I worked at an office, that was my pet peeve, was the partners would always hit speaker phone and then dial the phone number. Ring, ring, ring. And then when the person picks up, they would pick up the receiver to talk, but I don’t need to hear your boo, boo, boo, boo ring, ring, ring. No, pick up the receiver. Dial it that way. Like what are you doing?

Carolyn: That’s so inconsiderate. Absolutely right.

John: That’s really what it boils down to. And probably none of those things happen in Canada ’cause it’s magic land.

Carolyn: Oh, we’re very polite up here. Yes. Uh-huh.

John: Right?

Carolyn: No, no, but you’re right. I mean, honestly, sometimes on the beach it’s like people are out there, families picnicking and stuff. And then the next day, it’s like “Dude, you had your beer and the recycling’s right there and you just had to leave it on the grass. Like why?”

John: Yeah. Yeah, littering. Yeah.

Carolyn: It’s like, oh, I hate that.

John: That’s out there too.

Carolyn: Ugh! Okay. So my next question for you, John, is when you come back in your next life, who or what would you want to be?

John: Holy moly. Carolyn Ellis, that’s who I wanna be. I wanna be you. Wow. That is a good question. I mean, part of me wants to be like a dog or something where it’s just like life is good. Like I got zero pressure. I’m surprised every time my owner comes home. It’s just always a party and not a lot of pressure, and I can just pee wherever I want, and we’re good. Yeah, everyone loves you.

Carolyn: Everyone loves you. State of delight the whole time.

John: Yeah. I feel like a dog wouldn’t be so bad, you know. Like it’s kind of nice to just have a rotation off, if you will, where it’s like, hey, less pressure. Like we’re good. I don’t need all the pressure of all that stuff.

Carolyn: Oh, that’s a lot of training involved with that. That’s a very special kind of free incarnation.

John: We might start the training. And 2 hours in, they’ll be like “No, not this one.” We gotta like move them out to something else.

Carolyn: I think that’s a wonderful answer. And it’s just good boy, John.

John: Yeah, there you go. And yeah, more good boys. I feel like we need like more of that in my existence.

Carolyn: Please. Well, you nailed those answers. Thank you so much for playing the game.

John: No, no, absolutely. Thank you for being the host and honestly for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This has been super, super awesome, Carolyn. Thank you so much.

Carolyn: Awesome. It’s been a delight. Thanks so much.

John: Everyone listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Carolyn on stage, or maybe connect with her on social media, or check out her book (Lead Conversations That Count), be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. Thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 515 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. It was so kind of the Independent Press Awards to name it a Distinguished Favorite. It’s really, really cool to have that for my first book. And overall, the book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Chase Birky. He’s the CEO and cofounder of Dark Horse CPAs. And now, he’s with me here today. Chase, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Chase: Thank you, John. Happy to be here.

John: Yeah, it’s gonna be a blast. We connected over a random LinkedIn post that you had about an article about how supposedly accountants are boring and then somebody is like “You should talk to John Garrett.” And I was like “Ooh, that’s a lot of pressure.” Like a whole profession I need to turn around. But no, it will be fun. But I do have some rapid fire questions. Get to know Chase out of the gate here. So maybe an easy one, a favorite color.

Chase: Forest green.

John: Okay, nice. How about a least favorite color?

Chase: Fuchsia.

John: Fuchsia. Nice. Don’t even know how to spell it. That’s how much I don’t like it.

Chase: It has a C in there.

John: Right. Weird. Like what? That makes me angry actually just because of that. Do you prefer more talk or text?

Chase: Talk?

John: Talk. Okay. Yeah. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Chase: Ooh, let’s go with Edward Norton.

John: Oh, yeah. He’s so good. Like so good. Like deceptively good. How about a favorite season, summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Chase: It depends on where I am. In Vegas, it’s definitely not summer.

John: Right.

Chase: I would say fall just because seasons are turning and college football’s on as well as—

John: Amen, man. That’s why it’s my favorite too. Exactly. Yeah. It’s exactly right. How about when it comes to puzzles, Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Chase: Crossword.

John: Crossword. Okay. Oh, nice. All right. How about a favorite movie of all time?

Chase: The Big Lebowski.

John: Oh, there you go. All right. I see. I see. how about when it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Chase: Audio version.

John: Audio. Okay. All right. Yeah. I just started getting into that and it’s great ’cause you can double speed it and just burn through a book. It’s like “Wow.” All right. Great.

Chase: Yeah. I find that I am not using as much of my brain, which is helpful, when I’m trying to absorb information after a bit of a day. So for me, it works.

John: Yeah. Totally. I totally get it. And do you have a favorite number?

Chase: 14.

John: Yeah. Is there a reason?

Chase: That is always the number that I had in all sports growing up.

John: Okay. It’s a solid number. Yeah. You got lucky, man.

Chase: I don’t know how I landed on it, but I stuck with it once I did.

John: That’s a good number, man. That’s solid. There you go. What’s a typical breakfast?

Chase: Breakfast burrito.

John: Oh, you know what? Those are like so good. I mean, it’s just like everything all wrapped and then you could just now messy hands, just eat it. Yeah. That’s so good.

Chase: I spent good 15 years in San Diego, so I got pretty accustomed to that as a breakfast item. And I’m also pretty picky on it, but I will say my favorite item is just something I can’t really find where I currently am is a breakfast pizza.

John: Oh! Never even heard of that. Okay.

Chase: Yeah.

John: All right. So it’s the burrito just opened up?

Chase: Kinda. Yeah. I mean, there’s a place in San Diego that does one. it’s an Italian spot called Pappalecco. And it’s basically a Neapolitan-style pizza with an over easy egg, sausage, potatoes. And it’s just delicious.

John: Yeah. Wow. All right. That sounds like that’s also one of your ands. That’s for sure like it.

Chase: I’m a bit of a foodie for sure.

John: Yeah, no, that’s awesome. I love it. ‘Cause you have the accounting background, balance sheet or income statement?

Chase: I’m gonna say balance sheet just because it’s underappreciated. It’s the dark horse of financial statements.

John: Ah, I see what you did there. I see what you did. Circle around there. All right. All right. How about when it comes to your computer, PC or a Mac?

Chase: Absolutely. PC. I mean, I’m on the iPhone, you know, as far as the Mac world, but everything in accounting is just PC native. So I’m all in on that.

John: Yeah. I’m same with PC. Absolutely. How about your first concert?

Chase: First concert… Actually, the first concert I was supposed to go to got canceled even though we drove 2 hours to see it not realizing it was canceled. That was actually supposed to be The Lost Profits, which was a UK-based band. They’re kind of alt rock.

John: Yeah. Oh, man, bummer. But it makes for a great story, I guess, sort of. Have you been able to catch them since?

Chase: No, I haven’t.

John: Okay. And my musical tastes have kind of changed over the years. So one thing that most people are surprised to learn about me is that I’m really big into EDM.

John: Oh, okay.

Chase: I may be one of the only CPAs you’ll find at a rave.

John: Ah, you’d be surprised, but yeah. But I mean, a lot of tax information being distributed to the audience like “Is this your business? Those glow sticks are tax deductible.”
“What?!” Right?

Chase: I can assure you those are not the conversations I’m having there, but point taken nonetheless.

John: Exactly. Exactly. That’s hilarious. How about Star Wars or star Trek?

Chase: Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. Yeah, me too. All right. We got three more. How about when it comes to your ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Chase: A cone. And actually, hopefully, that cone is chocolate dipped.

John: Ah, yes. There you go. There you go. How about your favorite college football game that you attended?

Chase: It was the Rose Bowl with Justin Herbert’s last year, the Ducks and the Badgers. It was a game that I thought we were gonna lose up until midway through the 4th quarter.

John: That was an insane game. I totally remember that.

Chase: Totally insane game. Herbert had three rushing touchdowns, which was just beast mode status. And it capped off a road trip that we did from Southern Oregon all the way down to Rose Bowl. And it was epic.

John: Yeah. And Rose Bowl is such a great place to see a game anyway.

Chase: Other than the parking I will say.

John: Well, yeah, no. Right. The parking was super—

Chase: The parking was a nightmare, but the venue is incredible.

John: Yeah. Just really cool history there. All right. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Chase: You know, for me, it’s probably not so much a tangible item. It’s probably more the freedom and autonomy that I have that I didn’t always have in previous jobs. I mean, to me, that’s what I value most. You know, not the material things that have come as a result of that, but really it’s just that autonomy is what I value most.

John: Totally. No, that’s solid answer. That totally works. So how about let’s talk college football? That’s also one of my ands, so I’m super excited about this.

Chase: Yeah. And you’re a Notre Dame fan from what I understand.

John: Yeah. I mean, it’s where I went to school, but I’m just a huge college football fan in general. But yeah, definitely Notre Dame’s my team.

Chase: What do you think about the Brian Kelly departure?

John: Yeah, that was crazy, man. Also, it’s my podcast. I’ll ask you the question. I’m totally teasing. No, but I do some work with the team for their award show every year. And so, I had gotten to know BK a good amount. That’s my helmet that’s on my shelf. It is signed by him and with a little note. And he was always good to me, but yeah, it was crazy. But you know, when there’s $95 million—

Chase: Money talks.

John: Yeah. I mean, definitely. And so, we’ll see how it plays out. I think Marcus Freeman’s awesome, and he’s a really good person, and the players love him.

Chase: He was the assistant there. Right?

John: He was a defensive coordinator for 1 year.

Chase: Coordinator. Yeah.

John: So he had only been there 1 year or less than 1 year technically when he was hired on as the head coach. And so, yeah, we’ll see how it all plays out, but a lot of the staff are awesome now too. And the players are excited. The recruits are excited, which is most important, but I feel like we both can hate USC equally. So we have a common bond there.

Chase: Especially with that Lincoln Riley showing up.

John: Oh, totally. And then taking half of Oklahoma’s team with him. It’s like “Come on, man. That’s dirty.” Like this is just weird.

Chase: The only thing I’ll say that’s good about that is the Pac-12 is in desperate need of relevance. And hopefully, that restores some of the previous cache at the conference ’cause we’re—

John: Exactly. So how has Oregon become your team?

Chase: So I, I grew up in Oregon.

John: Ah, okay.

Chase: Yeah. And so, you know, you’re either a Beaver or Duck for the most part, and there’s some pretty ill will amongst the two groups. And for me growing up, I kind of liked both to be honest. Oregon, for a long time, didn’t have a baseball team. Oregon state did. They won national championships, you know. So I always followed them. But when it came to football, I mean, the brand that Oregon is and especially when they were pioneering that no huddle, fast tempo offense when no one else was, it was just so exciting.

John: Yeah. Chip Kelly as the coach and then yeah.

And then plus the Nike alignment. And they get all the cool jerseys, and gear, and all that stuff. And the stadium’s nuts. I mean, it’s awesome. It’s great to see a game in.

Chase: Right. I mean, Uncle Phil definitely is kind of the angel investor behind all this that has definitely paid dividends for the program. That’s for sure.

John: Yeah. No, that’s awesome. And so, you’ve been to quite a few games then as well.

Chase: Yeah. And actually, most of them actually haven’t been at Autzen. It’s just kind of been wherever I’ve been subsequent to that. But yeah, I mean, anytime I get the chance, I’m there, although I will say going to the Pac-12 championship in Vegas when they played Utah was extremely disheartening. And I actually left during the 3rd quarter ’cause I was so upset.

John: All right. It’s an emotional experience. Right? I mean, it’s like I’m not playing, but I’m playing. Like I feel like it. Like it hurts when we lose. And when we win, it’s exhilarating, and I’m gonna be hoarse after for sure just from cheering. And yeah, all that.

Chase: My wife doesn’t love the fall because I’m either on a really great day or a really terrible day. So she doesn’t know what she’s gonna get, you know. And it’s not within my control obviously. You might say I could control my reactions, but maybe I’m not that evolved at this point in my life.

John: No, no, I think you’re doing all right, man. I think you’re doing all right. Like I’ll see you at the meetings. Like college football anonymous, here we come. No, but it’s just such a great experience when you’re there live. But even watching on TV, it’s so cool. Are there other teams you’ll watch as well or is it pretty much just a straight Oregon thing?

Chase: Well, I binge watch college football, so I start pretty much at about 6 a.m. with college game day.

John: Nice. Yeah.

Chase: You know? ‘Cause I love the pageantry. I love the conversation. Some of those human interest stories they do.

John: Sure. Yeah.

Chase: You know, it gets me just fired up for the rest of the day. And honestly, I’m usually watching until 8 or 9 at night Pacific time, so it’s a long day of football, which is then followed up by another not quite as long day of football, but NFL.

John: Right. On Sundays.

Chase: Watching RedZone and all that. So my wife doesn’t see as much of me as she probably would prefer to during September through January-ish.

John: Exactly. But you know, at least you have a passion like for something. And that’s cool, man. And is this something that you talk about with coworkers or clients or does it come up?

Chase: I mean, kind of the running joke at Dark Horse is that I’ll be able to correlate just about any statement back to football. So I try to be mindful of that to not alienate those who don’t care. But you know, it is a pretty universal thing when it comes to college football because most— well, every CPA went to college, right, so they have some allegiance usually unless they went to a small school without a football program. But you know, everyone has some sort of connection to it I find and even folks that you might not suspect. You know, we’ve got a VP of technology who’s from China, but he’s actually probably even a bigger college football fan than I am.

John: That’s awesome.

Chase: Yeah. He went to the Ohio State.

John: Oh, on purpose? No, I’m just kidding. I’m teasing.

Chase: That’s what I wondered. But you know, he’s used to winning.

John: Sure.

Chase: But he probably knows more about college football.

John: Especially recently. Yeah. ‘Cause he probably caught on after the Cooper era and, you know, like whatever. So yeah, it’s like “All right, good for you, man.” It’s like those young Patriots fans and Red Sox fans that don’t remember when they were terrible, but that’s cool that you’re able to find that bond over— I mean, someone from China and it’s over something that’s deeper and something you’re both passionate about like that above and beyond spreadsheets, computers, and accounting, and whatever.

Chase: Totally. I mean, when you can find those areas, you can always find ways to connect because it’s just an easy point of conversation, right? When you’re searching for that point of commonality, it’s a lot harder and a lot more exhausting. That’s for sure.

John: Yeah. Even if it’s not exactly the same thing, at least you know about it and then you can ask questions and be genuinely interested in it as opposed to just I don’t even know who you are type of thing, you know. And how important do you feel that is? I mean, especially for Dark Horse where it’s so remote with everyone on the team.

Chase: Yeah. I mean, I really think that being remote, which companies have been forced to do, and obviously some are going back more to the office, but we were remote before the pandemic and we intend to be that way forever because it really fits our business model. But being remote requires you to be a lot more intentional about connection and culture.

Because if you’re not, it’s just not gonna happen because you don’t have the water cooler conversations, you know. So the need for intentionality in terms of reaching out to people and having meaningful connections, I think, has been a learning curve for a lot of folks. And even though we started remote, we’re always learning better ways to connect and make it more regular and do what we can to bridge the gap of in-person relationships to things like Zoom and Microsoft Teams.

John: Yeah. ‘Cause, I mean, when you’re in person, those things happen accidentally. You’re around somebody. You go to lunch together. You’re in their office. You see the whites of their eyes. Yeah, like you said, the water cooler, whatever, in the hallway. You know, those conversations happen. And this, you get on a video call and then when the agenda— and then when it’s done, the screen goes black, and you’re like “Uh, was that good? I don’t know. You know, like I’m not sure.” And so, like you said, being intentional with it. Are there things that Dark Horse does specifically that you find help to make that happen whether it’s leading a meeting with something or something like that?

Chase: Yeah. I mean, I guess from 30,000 feet, what I believe to be the most impactful component of culture is purpose. Because if you’re aligned around a common purpose and mission, then a lot of that tends to figure itself out. But beyond that, I mean, we do a kickoff call every Monday where we talk about different initiatives, and highlighting people’s successes, and all those sorts of things to keep people connected with kind of the broader organization. And then we have huddles on a daily basis for different areas of the business that get people a space to connect and shoot the breeze, if you will, or talk about different areas that they’re trying to improve in or get maybe a second opinion on best practice huddles. I mean, just really a series of scheduled touch points that aren’t too much that it distracts people and makes people feel obligated, but striking that balance to push people to connect, but not dominate their day.

John: Yeah. No. Just be intentional with it and you bring people together and then magic happens, you know. And then we’ve been in each other’s homes now. Like you can see the art on the wall, or the cat catwalk across the screen, or the whatever.

Chase: And the toddler on the knee. Yeah. I mean, you really get a window that you’d never had before into people’s actual personal life, which I think definitely fosters connection in a lot of ways. And then the other thing we do is an annual retreat typically after the last deadline for us of October 15th and get everyone together. But you know, when we get everyone together, it’s really cool to see relationships that started online pick up right where you left them off online and people— It shows you that it’s not just a synthetic sort of connection. It’s a real connection because you see it in person and it’s as authentic as it is on Zoom.

John: Yeah. And then it just accelerates it. So then the next time we meet virtually, then it’s even further advanced. And yeah, that little bit of in person is huge. Definitely. That’s really awesome. And so, were you always like this as far as like sharing an and or even having ands or earlier in your career?

Chase: Yeah. I mean, I think I’ve kind of maybe been on too far the spectrum of what might be called an overshare.

John: Oh, okay.

Chase: I just kind of lead with whatever’s on my mind and really trying to give people an authentic window into who I am, not who I’m trying to project myself to be.

John: Yeah. And I mean, is there any negative ramifications that come from that or is it mostly in our heads that we think that we’re oversharing? Because relative to everyone else who’s sharing nothing, I’m oversharing by saying one thing, you know.

Chase: Yeah. I mean, there’s always a downside if you share something that makes someone uncomfortable maybe.

John: Well, yeah, of course. Right.

Chase: I think the positive, what I focus on is that humanizing, you know, you as either a coworker, a leader, whatever position you’re in in the firm really just helps foster a meaningful relationship. When people know that when they’re talking to you that they’re getting the true you and not just the accountant or CPA version of you goes a long way ’cause, you know, at the end of the day, it’s a relationship business whether it’s with clients or with coworkers, or team members, or whomever. And you really have to invest the time in people, in relationships to do what you wanna do from a business standpoint and also enjoy the journey along the way.

John: I love that, man. That’s so good right there. It’s so good. Yeah. And of course, leading with something that’s controversial, or illegal, or taboo, let’s not do that, then it’s unprofessional actually. But you know, if it’s not your fault somebody went to the university of Washington, if that makes you uncomfortable, I can’t help that.

Chase: AKA my brother-in-law and we’re always talking craft to each other, which I’ve had the upper hand for a number of years.

John: It got ugly. It got ugly the last couple years. Woo! Yeah, it got weird, but you’re exactly right. And you know, it’s just being intentional with that and, and caring about others, and creating that human connection, you know. ‘Cause at the end of the day, it’s still a human-to-human transaction that’s happening.

Chase: Well, and the other thing too is that people struggle with things whether they’re health, whether they’re relationships, whether that’s stress. And if you don’t take the time to really unpack those things to the extent that people feel comfortable sharing, you’re not able to support them in the ways that they need. And I think that often gets overlooked in public accounting, especially during busy seasons or tax seasons, where the work just has to get done and your problems can wait until things slow down sort of thing. But at the end of the day, if you’re not supporting people, they can’t bring their best self to work. They can’t do the kind of work that they would otherwise be able to if they had a clear mind and not so much hanging over their head.

John: Yeah. No. You’re spot on. I mean, when I keynote at conferences, it’s asking people are your people living their best life. Because if they’re living their best life, they’re gonna do their best work. But if they’re not living their best life, they’re not gonna be doing their best work. I mean, they’re just not. So if we fix this thing, like you said earlier when we’re talking, everything falls out from that. And so, are you living your best life? Awesome. Are you doing your ands? Are you sharing them? Awesome. Then everything good’s gonna happen.

Chase: Yehah

John: Especially at Dark Horse where you guys— the bios for everyone on your team on the website, but the last paragraph is always, you know, when they’re not crunching numbers, they’re doing this or doing that. And it just really humanizes everybody to go from “Well, they all work for an accounting firm” to “Well, no, they’re all different in their own way, which is cool.” And I’m sure that people can connect over that whether it’s with clients or coworkers.

Chase: Yeah. So I write all those myself. My mom made me take all these advanced placement, you know, international baccalaureate English courses, which I hated growing up. But I’ve come to find that writing is a really key differentiator and you know, something that’s super valuable in the workplace.

John: Yeah. That’s where the crossword puzzle answer came from earlier. I see.

Chase: Exactly.

John: Okay. Okay. All right.

Chase: Exactly. And also Scrabble. I love Scrabble, which might put me in the nerd category, but it’s hard to beat my parents ’cause they know way more words than I do.

John: Right. It’s like they had a head start or something, like they’re cheating.

Chase: They’ve read more books. They’ve looked up the dictionary more times.

John: Right.

Chase: They’re tough to beat.

John: Well, it’s all right. One day, man. One day. Like it’s all good. It’s all good. So, yeah. So do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that might have an and, but they feel like no one’s gonna care because it has nothing to do with my job?

Chase: You know, I would say I guess taking a step back even further if you are working at a company, or accounting firm, or wherever that you don’t feel like you have that level of rapport with the people you work with, maybe you should look at working somewhere else because if there’s not that level of rapport in relationship that you feel like you could bring up a hobby, which I would say is maybe some of the more or less emotion-filled areas of people’s lives, you know.

John: Unless it’s college football for you and me, but either way, it’s benign, you know. It’s a benign thing of a hobby.

Chase: 100%. Yeah. I think just in general, you know, accounts are in large struggling from existential crises in terms of trying to find ways that their work is actually providing meaning to their lives and helping them live the life that they want to live as opposed to just getting from deadline to deadline. And so, that’s what I’m really most passionate about with Dark Horse, is giving people the platform to design their life in a way that when they’re at their deathbed, they’re gonna be proud of and they’re gonna live a story that’s meaningful. And if you’re not intentional about it and if you don’t have the platform and support to do it, there’s a lot of folks that get to retirement and they’re like “I’ve worked my whole life for this. And by the way, I kind of missed out along the way because I was so focused on being done with work and being secure that my best years I didn’t enjoy.”

Right? So one of the exercises we do with people, usually once a year, is we have them write their obituary. Ad this is my idea. This is actually from Donald Miller.

John: StoryBrand. Yeah.

Chase: Exactly. Yeah. Out of Nashville. And really, the point of that is what do you want to be said about your life? And if you start with that end in mind, then you can really be intentional about how you’re structuring your life and your work to make that happen. It’s like anything where you have a goal. If you have that goal and you’re focused on it, you’re a lot more likely to achieve it than just kind of having it in the ether and having some vague ideas about things and not doing tangibly what you need to do in the here and now to make that happen. So we like to have people start with that end in mind and how are you gonna build a practice and a lifestyle that’s gonna support you in and really what you want your life’s work to be about.

John: Yeah. And is it something that we share with the team as well?

Chase: Yeah.

John: Oh, okay. Nice.

Chase: I mean, we don’t force people to say, but just about everyone feels comfortable enough to share it.

John: That’s awesome, man. There’s gonna be a lot of CEOs of Dark Horse in the room. That’s weird. It’s like target on my back, but I love that because it’s literally are you living your best life? Like how can we help you do that? You know, explicitly saying it out loud, and we care, and how can I help you get to that end goal type of thing. And that’s how much you care about the person, which is great ’cause you can’t get that a lot of places, you know. And it’s something that that’s simple, but it’s genuine and it runs deep. I love it, man. That’s such a great example that literally everyone can do.

Chase: Yeah. I mean, for me, it was really what we are doing when you look at the motivating factors and the purpose. You know, going out on my own was not something that was necessarily intentional. It was just a product of the circumstances for me. And in that, I really was able to realize that I could do a lot more than I thought I could. You know, I realized that I could be the author of my own story and that I had control over my life. And I could find things that I found compelling, and interesting, and worthwhile that I could focus my time and energy towards. So starting what’s now Dark Horse was probably more personally transformational than even professionally.

John: Totally.

Chase: Having said that, there’s a lot of blood, sweat, tears, and sacrifice along the way. So really what Dark Horse is about is let’s give people that platform without as many of the headaches in the trials and tribulations because so many firms out there, you know— I mean, 99% of firms out there, you start as staff, and senior, then manager, then senior manager and grinding for 15 to 20 years hoping that you’re gonna be one of the 2% that makes partner. And at the end of the day, this doesn’t happen for a lot of people. A lot of people opt out before they get there because they’re just so burnt out and run down. Right?

John: Yeah.

Chase: But you know, that kind of just comes from an old school traditional mindset. And what we’ve found is that when you’re talking about CPAs, you’re talking about high capacity, high integrity people. And if you give ’em the right platform, the right tools, and the right coaching, they’re so much more capable than I think a lot of the firms that they come from believe they are. And we see just that light bulb turn on it’s not just about them growing a book of business. It’s enjoying their life. That’s what it’s all about.

John: It’s amazing how much we believe whatever the narrative that’s fed us or even the narrative we tell ourselves. I mean, my inner critic is brutal. I mean, so much more brutal than anyone could possibly be. And it’s the self-limiting factor that’s just terrible, you know. And it’s cool to step out on the limb and be supported, and you can do it and all that. So it’s just so cool to hear you’ve been through that as well. So that’s awesome, man.

Chase: Yeah. I think as accountants in general, we suffer from paralysis by analysis and knowing what we don’t know. It’s a sign of intelligence, but it’s also something that can be a barrier to growth when the kind of knowledge of what you don’t know and what you feel like your faults are and all that just— you know, know it can get in your way. Right?

John: Totally. No, I love it, man. So encouraging. So encouraging. And I feel like before we wrap this up though, it’s only fair that we turned the table since I peppered you with questions at the beginning. We make this the first episode of The Chase Birky Podcast. So thanks for having me on as a guest and I’m all yours, man.

Chase: All right. Well, my rapid fire questions are in relation to college football.

John: Okay.

Chase: They’re easy questions, but I might judge you for the answers.

John: Okay. I’m gonna judge myself before you can judge me. I’m judging that I’m judging you’re judging.

Chase: That’s very meta of you. Very meta.

John: Right.

Chase: All right. So I got 3 questions here all about college football.

John: Okay.

Chase: Number 1: What is the most overrated conference in college football?

John: SEC hands down 100%. I’ll fight anybody on that. It’s Alabama and maybe one other team and then 12 average teams at best. It’s like get out of here. Quit playing in your FCS schools and play somebody north of the Mason-Dixon line so we can actually see you guys not just play yourselves in this fake bubble that ESPN continues to feed. Hopefully that was the right answer.

Chase: That is the correct—

John: That’s the right answer?

Chase: Yes.

John: Okay. All right. All right.

Chase: All right. Next question. What is next year’s surprise team?

John: Ah, next year’s surprise team. So kinda like the Cincinnati of—

Chase: Yes.

John: …2021. That’s a good question. I feel like— I don’t know. I feel like somebody like a Miami maybe or maybe a Florida state. Somebody that’s gonna just rebound that’s a historically good team that’s been not good for a while and they’re due to come back. I don’t mean like they’re gonna be in the playoffs, but I mean like 9 in 3, 8 in 4, 9 in 3 kind of thing, so be respectable at least.

Chase: Yeah. I would say Miami is a good answer. It’s one that I’m also bitter about because Mario Cristobal used to be our coach. He’s now at Miami. So I think he’s gonna turn them around in a pretty meaningful way.

John: Right. And the recruits are there and everything. So I feel like, you know, maybe not playoffs, but like respectable.

Chase: Right. And actually, that brings up another question that I’m gonna add here. How many teams should be in the playoff? How big should the playoff field be?

John: You know, I kinda liked it when it’s just 1 and 2, when it was kind of the BCS and then the bowls could be the bowls and whatever ’cause it’s hard ’cause there’s always gonna be “Oh, well, let’s make it 8 teams.” Well, there’s always a ninth that should be in there. And then are we cutting down the season now to only be 9 games because we have to have the championship eventually be whatever? I don’t know. So I’m kind of traditionalist though. Like, I mean, even before that, before the BCS when it was just like just play the balls and all that, so I don’t know. I can see the other side too though. It’s just the wear and tear on these student athletes is a lot. I mean, it’s a lot now.

Chase: So my personal opinion, I’m on the other side, I think we should have 8 teams. I think you should take away one of those meaningless FCS games you mentioned off the front end of the schedule. If you win at your power five conference, automatic bid. Then three at large, it gives a conference of five like Cincinnati a chance, although they probably end up playing Alabama and getting crushed, but they still get a chance. And then two at large teams, probably one from the SEC and one from the big 10 or the big 12 as it stands currently.

John: Right. I could see that as well. It’s just you gotta shorten the schedule and then you also have to make sure that the wear and tear and the academic side of it too for the schools that have student athletes instead of athlete athletes, but I mean, more college football isn’t a bad thing. So like, yes, it’s like would you like 4 scoops of ice cream? Totally. Like why would we only have one?

Chase: Right. And the other thing for me, I mean, this might just be informed by Oregon losing two national championship games, is the number of weeks off in between the regular season and the bowls tends to benefit the SEC because the defense is usually so much better than the team they’re playing. So, you know, with 3-4 weeks the game plan—

John: Against the offense. Right.

Chase: Exactly. And the offense comes out, you know, not clicking like they were during the regular season tends to disadvantage my team. So that’s a totally biased take on it.

John: I mean, I feel like all our takes are biased. I mean, on everything. They’re based on our experience. So, you know, that’s awesome. No, very cool. Was there one more question?

Chase: There’s one more question. And so, this one is another biased question, Oregon versus Georgia season opener, are you taking Georgia -15 or Oregon +15?

John: Oh, I’ll take Oregon +15 on that.

Chase: I like it.

John: I think Georgia’s gonna be a little overconfident. I feel like they got super lucky last year. And yeah, I think Oregon. I think so. I mean, there’s plenty of speed in offense.

And 15 points, good Lord. Yeah, that is a lot.

Chase: I mean, I think you got two things. One, we’ve got the defensive coordinator from Georgia from last year, so he’s gonna have some inside knowledge. And #2, it’s the first game of the season, so neither team is gonna be playing their best. I mean, if this was middle of the season, I actually might say Georgia..

John: Not by 15. No way. Yeah. I mean, they still got their walk on quarterback. They’re still rolling with that. It’s like he’s the Rudy of the SEC. It’s like we got a new Rudy now. Good for him. E C now. Like it’s like, we got a new Rudy now. So it’s like, you know, good for him and good for Georgia for getting the monkey off their back and all that, but goodness.

Chase: Rudy is probably someone close to your heart as an Irish fan of the movie.

John: Not the individual. The movie.

Chase: The movie.

John: Of course.

Chase: Yeah.

John: But yeah, not the individual per se, but this has been so much fun, Chase. We could go on forever because this is also my and, but we should probably wrap it up. So thanks so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”?

Chase: Thanks, John. Really appreciate it. Really enjoyed the conversation and hope to talk soon.

John: Everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Chase outside of work at a college football game or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 513 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth into the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and listening to it on Audible, and writing such great reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Lynne Titley. She’s the associate director of finance at Space & Time Media in Bournemouth, UK. And now, she’s with me here today. Lynne, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Lynne: Thank you so much. I love this podcast. Really pleased to be here.

John: Oh, thank you. This is gonna be so much fun ’cause I’m a musician as well. I mean, we’re gonna be so close to jamming by the end of this.

Lynne: I feel like you’re gonna get it completely.

John: Right? Exactly. But before I get going in that stuff, I have 17 rapid fire questions. Get to know Lynne out of the gate. So here we go. I’ll start you with an easy one, I think. Favorite color.

Lynne: Pink now. Yeah, it used to be blue. Now, pink.

John: Okay. Okay. All right. How about a least favorite color?

Lynne: Yeah. Orange.

John: You know what? That is by far the most least favorite color of everyone.

Lynne: Weird. Isn’t it?

John: I should just stop asking the question.

Lynne: You know, I think it’s just been done. It’s just been overdone. There’s too much orange for me.

John: Right. Any orange at all is too much.

Lynne: Yeah.

John: There you go. How about a favorite animal? Any animal at all.

Lynne: Oh, I’ve gotta go cats.

John: Cats.

Lynne: Yeah. We’ve got a cat. She would crucify me if I said anything else.

John: Right. Just in case she listens.

Lynne: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John: You know, that works. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw?

Lynne: Crossword. Because I spend so much time with numbers in the daytime obviously. A crossword is a nice kind of change of pace, change of angle on things. Yeah.

John: That’s an excellent point right there for sure. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Lynne: Hugh Jackman.

John: Yeah. He’s excellent. And he’s so good in everything. Like he’s so diverse.

Lynne: He’s just such a nice bloke. He’s just so humble.

John: Oh, that too. Yeah. Just a good person.

Lynne: He can just play anything and he’s just— Yeah. Yeah. He’s awesome. I hope my husband doesn’t listen to this.

John: We’re talking about as an actor. He’s a nice person.

Lynne: Completely professional interest.

John: Yeah. Absolutely. If you could date any actor, who would it be? Also Hugh Jackman, but that isn’t the question I asked. That was a totally different question. Right? How about a favorite place you’ve been on vacation?

Lynne: Ooh, okay. Well, we just went to Italy a couple of weeks ago. I went to Verona and it was awesome. Really loved it. Really beautiful. Just walk everywhere from where we stayed, and great restaurants and architecture, and it was lovely. Really lovely break. So yeah, I’m gonna say at the moment, Verona. I’d otherwise change my mind, but yeah.

John: That totally works. Yeah. How about more Star Wars or star Trek?

Lynne: Star Wars for the films and Star Trek for the TV.

John: Oh, yeah. I’ll take that. I’ll take that. Absolutely. Absolutely. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Lynne: I’ve never really had a chance to use Macs. I had iPhones for a while, but not Mac. So yeah, PC all my life. It just because that’s all I’ve ever had been given to.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I’m curious. In the UK, toilet paper roll, is it over or under? Are you guys like reverse?

Lynne: It’s incredibly contentious, John. I won’t lie. It’s very contentious. So that sounds like you have the same problem over there.

John: Yeah.

Lynne: Yeah. I mean, what can I say? For me personally, it’s over without a doubt. Just there is no argument, but I know there are people out there who disagree. I won’t begin to try and understand them.

John: Right. Exactly. I think they’re French. There you go. Oh, this is a fun one. Ice cream. I’m a huge ice cream fan. You get ice cream in a cup or in a cone?

Lynne: I usually get cup because it feels less unhealthy. I feel less guilty if I get it in a cup.

John: Right. Sometimes I try and talk ’em into putting the cone on top of the cup so that I get both. It’s not messy, but I still get the calories and the sugar.

Lynne: Will they do that for you?

John: On occasion, yeah. If you ask and you ask nicely.

Lynne: Good call.

John: Yeah. It’s a super-secret bonus. Now, all the ice cream shops are gonna start e-mailing.

Quit telling people ’cause now we have to sell in cups and cones, and we’re running out of supplies. That will be the next world shortage. Ice cream cones. Now, I’m gonna be angry. Yeah. The gas prices is one thing. Ice cream cones, that’s where I’m drawing the line.

Lynne: Oh, I find some wafers— take some wafers in it or something instead. Like I don’t know. Find a KitKat or something.

John: Right. There you go. Here’s a fun one. Planes, trains, or automobiles?

Lynne: Oh, woah. Trains.

John: Yeah. Especially in Europe. You guys have it down.

Lynne: Yeah. Some European countries, absolutely. I’m not sure us quite so much, but I don’t like flying. I’ll be honest. I’ll do it, but I can’t say I enjoy it. I do get nervous. And yeah, if it’s a long journey, you wanna sit on a train and read or do a little bit extra work or life hack, you know, or sleep, or something.

John: Yeah. Absolutely. Plus, there’s a novelty to it. It’s kinda neat. You know, you don’t do it all the time. You know, a car is every day.

Lynne: Yeah. Absolutely. And when you go on holiday, like if you turn up at the station, as soon as you turn up at the station, you’re on holiday. Right? The journey is included in the holiday, I think, for me.

John: Yeah. No, that’s true. That’s an excellent point. Since you have the finance background, balance sheet or income statement?

Lynne: Balance sheet.

John: Oh?

Lynne: Yeah. No contest because net worth, right, is more important than income in any particular period. I think worth is much of the better measure of—

John: What’s the total accumulation? Where are we going here?

Lynne: Absolutely. Yeah.

John: All right. How about summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Lynne: Summer.

John: Summer. Okay.

Lynne: Yeah. I struggle. It’s contentious because I do get burnt quite easily, but I like being warm. I don’t like being cold. I like being warm though. I like to sit in the shade. Yeah. On a really hot day, sit in the shade, and just be warm, and just breathe. Yeah.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, we got three more. Do you have a favorite number?

Lynne: No, I couldn’t possibly choose. It would be rude to all the other numbers.

John: Especially the cats that like numbers just in case they’re all so listening.

Lynne: Yeah. Don’t make me choose.

John: Right? Fair enough. I won’t make you choose. When it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Lynne: Audio version.

John: Oh, okay.

Lynne: I think I’m all about the life hacks. I love to walk and listen to podcasts. So I’m getting my exercise and I’m getting my mental kind of development as well. Yeah. You can’t walk along holding the book. So yeah, podcast.

John: Plus, you can listen to it at like one and a half speed or two speed, and your brain still processes it, and it’s so much faster than actually reading. But, well, you’re also doing other things at the same time. That’s awesome.

Lynne: Absolutely. You can do your washing up. You can do your walk. You can do whatever you need to do.

John: Totally. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Lynne: I’m gonna go favorite thing I have. Not in the ownership sense. I’m gonna be really cheesy and say it’s my husband because he’s the absolute light of my life. I feel like I have my husband, so I’m gonna call him out.

John: Absolutely. So good. Just in case he didn’t turn it off earlier.

Lynne: Yeah.

John: Totally redeem yourself.

John: That’s so fantastic and super sweet. So, absolutely, that totally counts. Absolutely. So let’s talk jamming and what instruments do you play when you’re jamming?

Lynne: I sing primarily. I’m most comfortable singing, but I play keyboards as well. So quite often, I’ll play keys and sing. I did, last Christmas, surprise everybody, threw a bit of a curve ball in there by taking my cello to jam, which everybody thought— So we like played Christmas songs, which really lent themselves to cello. So I thought, well, I just say that. But yeah, mostly, it’s singing and playing keyboards.

John: Yeah. But I mean, cello, that’s not something you stumble across every day, you know. I mean, I play piano. So it’s like “Oh, okay. There’s people that play piano.” But cello, it’s like “Wait, what?”

Lynne: Yeah. I’m not quite sure how I neither— I started playing piano when I was about 4 and then I somehow started doing cello lessons when I was about 8 or 9. And so, it obviously wasn’t my choice because children that age don’t choose to do anything really. They just do what they’re told. They get sent. Yeah. I got kinda presented with a cello and told to go to lessons, and that was that.

John: But I mean, obviously now that you’re an adult, you still like it. So, you know, it’s, that’s something that brings you joy. And so, did you grow up in a musical household then?

Lynne: My dad was musical, but only sort of by ear. Very intuitive. He always said he didn’t wanna go to lessons. He’d rather go out and play football or, you know, go and watch trains or something. So yeah, he had a good musical ear and just played by ear. Whether there’s genes involved, I don’t know. I find it fascinating the whole thing about whether you’re musical or not. I can’t even begin. If I had more time, I would spend some time looking into why.

John: Yeah. What’s weird to me is like I can play, I can hear things that if they’re out of tune, I can do all that from the instrument side. But to sing, ooh, I’m terrible. I mean, I’m so bad. Like at church, old ladies turn around. They’re like “God still loves you. You don’t have to sing it out loud.” You know, like just lip-synch it. You know, just Milli Vanilli or whatever you wanna do.

Lynne: Actually, fascinating, isn’t it? I don’t understand how people can do what they can do in terms of playing, but I know loads of people who play beautifully, who are great at jams, but don’t sing or won’t sing. And I don’t understand how that is.

John: I don’t know if I need like decades of lessons or something because it’s not a quick fix, but I can hear that it’s off. And it’s like “Mm, this is not good.” But it’s so cool that you could do both. That’s awesome. You have my superpower. If I could have a superpower, that and dunk a basketball. Like that’s all I wish I could do. Singing and dunk a basketball at the same time. Like “Ahhh” and then just. So do you have like some favorite memories either from jamming or from growing up?

Lynne: Yeah, it’s funny actually. So I came through the education system doing music. In this country, you do your GCSEs at 16 and you’re a levels at 18. And I did music for both of those. And it put quite a lot of pressure on it in a way because you can’t get to a perfect kind of standard no matter how much you throw at music. You do it in an educational setting and somebody’s gonna put a scale on it and put numbers on it and say you’re this good, or that good, or whatever. So I found it a challenge from that point of view. And I was in bands, in covers bands, and tribute bands, and function bands, and stuff when I was in my 20s.

And then I kind of went away from music ’cause I was like— I did that because it felt like the natural thing to do with my spare time because music was my thing that I did. When I was about 30, I just kind of drifted away from it and spent about 10 years not doing any music at all on the cello when in the loft and didn’t do anything. And then I had a bit of change of life circumstances and moved sort of somewhere new or back home, actually back to where I was born. And I saw this advert on Facebook for a jam. And I’d never seen anything like that before.

I’d done karaoke periodically once in a while, like once every couple of years or something. You find yourself “Oh, there’s karaoke. I’ll do that.” I was always happy that I found that fun. And so, I saw this jam advert on Facebook and that’s the first one that I went to. And I was absolutely terrified. I kid you not. I was extremely nervous because sort of complicated history with music I would say in terms of that pressure of coming to an education system and rehearsing. And also, when you were in a band, rehearsing and getting it right. I always used to get nervous in bands ’cause I wanted it to be perfect. It’s never perfect.

John: No, that’s the beauty of it.

Lynne: Well, this is it. We jam, all I do. And I’m kind of jumping into how jam works a little bit, but you just rock up, and you do it, and it works or it doesn’t. And sometimes, it doesn’t, but sometimes it’s amazing. There’s no prep. There’s no practicing. It just is this piece of art or this thing on its own. And also, post-COVID, I completely removed all of the sort of nerves, and issues, and baggage surrounding it. And I’m just grateful for it. And I just appreciate it because it turned us around, I think, in terms of our appreciation of simple things and how fragile life. So now, I was so relieved when jam came back after COVID. The various venues started them up again, and I was able to go back and do some more. And now, yeah, I just try. I focus on just pure enjoyment of it and just enjoying the moment. And when it’s going great, just enjoy it, you know.

John: No. I love that mentality. That’s so good. You know, that whole just being in the moment and enjoying it for what it is, and we’re not able to do that at work all the time because we feel the pressure similar to the pressure of music. It’s gotta be perfect. When you’re in finance, and accounting, and law, and a lot of these professional jobs, you can’t miss or we think we can’t miss. We can. If you’re a heart surgeon, okay, maybe then you can’t miss. But everybody else, I mean, what’s the big deal? But we put that pressure on ourselves.

Lynne: Oh, we do.

John: And it’s cool to see that you had that breakthrough, you know, with the jamming that take some of the pressure off. And do you feel like it’s different now? Do you feel like you’re a different performer, different player?

Lynne: Yeah, absolutely. Very much. It’s revelationary really, if that’s a word, to realize that it doesn’t matter, that it doesn’t add anything. To stress about it, it doesn’t improve anything. It doesn’t make you enjoy it more. It’s just negative. Just put it down. Just forget it. Nobody else cares. Nobody else is nervous. Just enjoy it ’cause life is short. Just go on. You got 3 minutes to do a song. You got however many songs you end up doing. Just enjoy them ’cause life’s short.

John: Yeah. No, I love that so much. And I’m curious, the 10 years when you stepped away from music, what was that like professionally? Did it make a difference when you came back to music in your job or when you didn’t have music as part of your life? Did it enhance things or was it just another thing?

Lynne: I think it’s hard to separate the work from the music, from just getting more mature and getting more life experience, and COVID, and all of the other things that have happened. If I don’t take myself back to when I was about 40 and jam started, I’d been through some sort of life experiences and got a different perspective at that time anyway, a really sort of dramatically different perspective on what was important.

And so, that happened at the same time, sort of moved back home and started going to jams. So I’d already got a bit of that change of perspective. I think that it has given me some really valuable things though and some really valuable tools over the last 5 years. And it changed me in a really positive way. I think that I’ve got a much better appreciation of other people and what they can bring to the table because I can’t jam on my own.

John: Right. That’s true.

Lynne: You can sit and play on your own, but you can’t create that experience on your own of just putting a group of people in a room or in a bar and going “Right, these are the chords, go. What do you make of it?” And then being amazed by what they turn that into. In work, I would say back in my sort of 20s, I was much more of an individual contributor I would say, much more self-reliant in work. I was one of those typical people who would only trust themselves to do the thing. You know, those people who say I’ll do it myself, which is how I want it done or whatever.

John: By the time I explain it to you, I could have just done it 10 times.

Lynne: Absolutely. That cliché. I’m completely that person. So I’m a line manager now. And my perspective now is very much how can I enable my team? How can I get the most outta my team? What do I need to do for them to help them? That’s my job, is to get the collective best out of the team and make sure they’re as happy and enabled as they can be. I do think that jam has given me this appreciation of other people and what they bring that is translated into my working life.

John: I love that so much. Like imagine walking in. And the team, you look at them like a jam like “Okay, you’re the guitars, you’re keys, you’re the singer. Here’s the chords and don’t mess it up. Everybody go do your thing. Let’s jam. Let’s do this.” You know? Like how great would that be at work?

Lynne: I could just imagine doing that to my team. And they’d be like “Oh, my God.”

John: She has lost her mind. And she’s talking to some American guy again. Like what the hell is going on?

Lynne: Do you know what’s wrong actually? Is they probably wouldn’t go “Oh, my God.” They go “Yeah, this is not surprising.”

John: Right. What took you so long, Lynne? We’ve been waiting to jam forever.

Lynne: Yeah.

John: But just that mindset though, if everyone just looked at it as jamming, no pressure. Just stay within the cord and we’re good. And I mean, what a cool place to work, a cool department even within a company. That would be so much fun just to think of it that way. I mean, I love that mindset shift of, you know, everyone’s bringing their own thing and we’re all in it together. Do you feel like talking about jamming, is that something that you do at work? Do people know about this side of you? I mean, clearly, I’m guessing ’cause you were like “What took ’em so long?”

Lynne: Yeah. They do. Yeah. I’ve been quite open about it. And again, I’ve seen a real change in myself somewhere between my 20s and my 40s. because in earlier in my career, I was very back and white about it. And I was like I’m here to work. I’m being paid to work. I’m not being paid to chat.

John: Right. Right.

Lynne: I dunno. I’m gonna possibly come out on your podcast here a little bit ’cause I don’t know whether I’m possibly a little bit on the spectrum on the autism spectrum.

John: Oh, okay. Sure.

Lynne: You know, neurodiversity is cool. And I think that I have a very kind of black and white perspective on things sometimes.

John: Which makes you really good at finance, you know, like really good.

Lynne: Right.

John: But yeah. But I mean, so many people think that way of there isn’t a charge code to get to know people, or we don’t get paid to socialize, or that isn’t my job. And as a manager, as associate director, it’s not my job to make sure my people are living their best life. It’s just my job to make sure they’re getting their work done. And it’s like, well, it’s probably more. It’s actually more than that.

Lynne: Absolutely. This is where I’ve changed so much. I feel now like that was a very individual perspective on things ’cause I’ve kind of watching— So there’s a that I’ve heard about where if you offer a baby like a sweet now or two sweets in 30 seconds time, they’ll take the sweet now or three sweets in 60 seconds’ time and they’ll still take the sweet now. It’s very short term. And as you mature, the idea is that you evolve and you start looking at the long term. And this gets me thinking, well, actually, probably what I should be doing for the company—

Even if you look at it purely from the company’s benefit perspective, what I should be doing is maximizing my long-term contribution to the business for the duration that I’m there. How do I do that? ‘Cause that might not be just work the next minute because, work, that might be take a breather. And actually, the following minute, I’ll work twice as well because actually I’m a human being. I’m not a machine and I needed a breather right then. So I’m now thinking. My possibly slightly autistic self is thinking maybe there’s kind of a curve where we—

We know that there’s a curve. We know that when we work continuously, we do 10, 11, 12, 13 hours, we’re gonna end up spitting out rubbish because we are over time. So there’s got to be a balance there between you can’t just keep on working yourself into the ground. So where’s that balance and what does that involve? And now, I think, yeah, I’ve certainly got to a place these days where I think actually it’s about people.

Every business success is all about people, and people need to be happy to be productive. If they’re not happy, we know if we have arguments with people or something goes wrong, it can affect our sort of motivation and our performance. And so, let’s try and make people happy. And one of the things that people value is social connection. So let’s socially connect as a team and let’s talk about what our ands are and what our fun is because that’s where we come to life a little bit. So, yeah. Hell, yeah, I talk about my hobby now, and I am incredibly delighted that one of my team has just brought a saxophone and started learning saxophone because we talk about it.

John: There you go.

Lynne: She says she’s always wanted to do it. So, shout out to Gabs for taking the leap and I’m thrilled. I honestly couldn’t be happier and I’m so glad that you mentioned it.

John: Get a couple lessons. You can come down to jam as well.

Lynne: Yeah. Oh, well, it’s on her objectives, dude. It’s on her performance objectives. 6 months’ time, she’s coming to jam.

John: That’s great. Her work performance objectives are to come to jam and play. I love that because it absolutely should. You know, that’s the thing. Like when I work with organizations, it’s like why are the coaching, mentoring conversations not starting with your and? Like what is it that lights you up? Tell me about it. And when’s the last time you did it and when’s the next time you’re gonna go do it? You know, like let’s get this on and then we’ll get to the work stuff later certainly, but that stuff matters. And I love that you have that as a performance objective because it matters. If she’s not playing the saxophone or being encouraged to play the saxophone, she’s not as good at work.

Lynne: Yeah, yeah, no, she’s not gonna be as happy. Honestly, she’s lit up. She’s absolutely lit up with this thing. She would cringe I’m talking about her, but yeah, she’s really excited about it.

John: Right. We’ll have her on soon enough. Don’t worry. It’s all good.

Lynne: That actually would be nice. That is in fact—

John: Oh, but that’s so fantastic. I love it so much. And how much do you feel like it’s on the organization to create that space for people to share versus on the individual?

Lynne: Completely. Completely. And yeah, I’ve got a variety of experience of working in different organizations. And I think it’s a lot about size. I think once organizations get really big, you don’t have visibility at the senior leadership in an authentic way. You don’t see them day to day. You know, you just see the vision that they wanna present of what they are and very cultivated and edited. You know, even if they say we want you to be authentic, we want you to have fun, we want you to do whatever, you don’t have a relationship direct with them and you can’t necessarily believe that. And you’ve got a layer of middle management that you’re not sure is entirely invested in that. And so, yeah, you might say that, but does my boss really think that, might immediate—

John: Right.

Lynne: So you’re on the side of caution. Whereas I’ve recently moved jobs into a much smaller organization and the senior leadership totally live it and it makes such a difference. I feel absolutely empowered to just be myself, and have fun, and make jokes, and have a good time at work. And that generates an incredible amount of value, I think.

John: Yeah. And it’s those human connections connecting on the ands and the funnys like you said and like the things like that. That’s where the connection happens. It doesn’t happen because we’re both good at Excel and work in the same department.

Lynne: No. It doesn’t.

John: Like that’s nothing, you know. And so, I love how you’ve created this place. You’re what’s your and come to life.

Lynne: There’s energy. There’s energy with that, you know.

John: Yeah. No, it’s awesome. It’s so cool and so encouraging to hear that I’m not just crazy making things up in a bubble. It’s like “No, no. In the real world, it matters to everybody.” Like just do it. Something that simple.

Lynne: And yeah, like I say, I’m not being all corporate, and cutthroat, and kind of shareholder value about it. Happy people are more productive. It just all works. It’s a virtuous circle, you know.

John: Exactly. I mean, care about your people and good things happen. Like everything good comes from that. And for some reason, we’ve typically built business upside down where care about our people is on accident last and if it happens at all. And it’s like no, no, no, gotta be a priority. And I mean, the one takeaway for everybody is performance reviews include did you do your and? I mean, it’s that simple. That’s it. The objective, the goals for this next 6 months also include something that you enjoy doing. And I love it. That’s so fantastic. This has been so, so great, Lynne, but I feel like it was rude of me to pepper you with so many questions at the beginning. So it’s only fair that I turn the tables and will make this the first episode of The Lynne Titley Podcast.

Lynne: Oh, I know. I know.

John: Right. There you go. So I’m all yours. You’re the host.

Lynne: Cool. All right. Okay. And what I’ve got for you is being a Brit, tea or coffee? I wanna know.

John: Oh, tea. I skipped the coffee train. Like I never got on coffee train. Like I never got it. And I do enjoy tea. So, tea for certain.

Lynne: I didn’t see that coming. I thought it was gonna be coffee. Fabulous. Okay.

John: I’ll surprise you.

Lynne: I’ve got a musical one. Air guitar or air drums?

John: Oh, wow. That’s a good one. That’s a good one ’cause I feel like I’m better at air guitar, but air drums is so fun.

I mean, it’s just like how many symbols do you have 14? You’re like what are you doing over here? I mean, it’s just like an octopus of like “Wow! Like I got symbols on top, symbols behind me. Like I got drums over here and like I got all kinds of—” Yeah. I mean, like I just imagine almost like a double drum kit where it’s just like stuff everywhere. So it’s just so much more fun to just like— Yeah, air drum, I guess.

Lynne: So you’re better at air guitar.

John: Yeah. Oh, Lynne, trust me, I practiced. Well, it’s more realistic. I think the air guitar—It just looks more realistic. But the drums, it’s just like so much. Yeah. You can go nuts with that ’cause, you know, you can’t see my drum kit. You don’t know. Yeah. I do have a bass drum up above me. What’s wrong with that, kids?

Lynne: We totally don’t know. We don’t know. Oh, you’re amazing at air drums, John. Amazing. Okay. This slightly longer. I can explain. You are getting a takeaway with friends, right? Like a Chinese, or a Curry, or something.

John: Oh, yeah.

Lynne: Share or not share?

John: No. No. No. You order what you wanted and I order what I wanted. And if you wanted what I got, you should order that. It’s that simple.

Lynne: You’re hard over on it.

John: Hard no. Hard no. Even if I’m eating with Hugh Jackman, still a hard no. Like hard no on that.

Lynne: Hugh Jackman ain’t getting your curry, dude.

John: Nope. None. Like not at all.

Lynne: Brilliant.

John: Yeah, absolutely. Well, this has been so much fun, Lynne. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”?

Lynne: Me too. Loved it. Absolutely loved it. Thanks.

John: Awesome. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Lynne jamming or connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 511 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. It goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and now listening to it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Josh Standley. He’s the CEO of DKK DKK Accounting in Duluth, Minnesota. And now, he’s with me today. Josh, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Josh: Thanks for having me, John.

John: Oh, this is gonna be a blast. I don’t know enough at all about 3D printing, and I am super excited, and I’m probably gonna order one right after we’re done talking. So, you get a commission. But first, I have 17 rapid fire questions. Get to know Josh on a new level here. I’ll start you out with a— This is gonna be a slam dunk. Star Wars or star Trek?

Josh: Definitely Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. There you go. And a favorite character in particular?

Josh: I’d say Boba Fett and The Mandalorian. Probably my two favorites.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Very much. How about your computer? More of a PC or a Mac?

Josh: I like Mac personally. But for work, it’s gotta be a PC.

John: Yeah. So, a little bit of both? That’s impressive, man.

Josh: Yeah.

John: That’s impressive. How about your ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Josh: Oh, it depends on the cone.

John: Ah.

Josh: And depends on the ice cream.

John: Yes! You’re a professional. I like this.

Josh: I got this chocolate on chocolate with chocolate. Oh, it’s delicious.

John: Oh, wow. So it’s like a chocolate cone with chocolate dipped?

Josh: Yeah. It’s got like fudge in it. It’s kinda like Oreo crumbles.

John: Oh, wow. Yeah.

Josh: It’s just amazing.

John: That’s some next level stuff right there. Like you could almost skip the ice cream.

Josh: Yeah.

John: Like “Sir, are you okay?” “I’m totally okay. It’s awesome.” You got chocolate all over your face.

Josh: Will buy one and I’ll eat like two a night sometimes.

John: Right. Right. There you go.

Josh: Don’t judge me.

John: I love it, man. So good. How about would you say more oceans or mountains?

Josh: I kinda like both. I’ve always wanted a cabin near a mountain on the ocean, which is kind of like— Duluth is kind of like that where I live.

John: Right. With the Great Lakes. Absolutely up there. Yeah. Totally, man. I love that. Okay. How about more balance sheet or income statement?

Josh: Ooh, I like the income statement. I just like analyzing it I think. I don’t know why.

John: Sure. Yeah. I feel like there’s a lot more ratios and stuff that you can play with there. Yeah, definitely. HOW about a TV show that you would binge watch of all time? It could be any time.

Josh: Oh, Parks and Recreation is definitely one of ’em.

John: Yeah. Solid answer. There you go. Solid answer. That show is so good. So good. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Josh: I don’t like any.

John: None. Okay. Right. Accounting is enough puzzle for me.

Josh: No. If you like puzzles, you would be like working on cars. It’s a puzzle.

John: Oh, okay. That is very much a puzzle.

Josh: 3D printing is like a puzzle ’cause you have all the different axles you have to coordinate to work together, so that’s more mechanical puzzles.

John: Yeah. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Or a picture that we’re gonna put together and then tear apart to put it back in the box. It’s like “Why are we doing this? How about we just skip it and put it right in the box? How’s that sound?”

Josh: The picture’s already complete on the box.

John: Right. Right? Right? There you go. How about a favorite color?

Josh: Blue.

John: Blue. Mine too. How about a least favorite color?

Josh: Anything super neon bright.

John: Ah, okay. That’s a good answer. How about favorite day of the week?

Josh: Actually, surprisingly, Mondays. I look forward to going to work.

John: Okay.

Josh: It’s not like work to me. It’s like a hobby I get paid for. I just jump from the thing I like to a thing I like.

John: Well, you’re living a good life, man. That’s how it’s supposed to be. Right? And it’s not all one thing, which is super cool too. You know, it’s several things.

Josh: I just gotta find a little more balance, this issue, ’cause it’s usually one polar end of the opposite. I’m still working on it. Once I find that balance, I think it’s gonna be great.

John: How about a favorite actor or actress?

Al Pacino. That’s a solid answer. There you go. How about a favorite cereal of all time?

Josh: I think Kix has been one of my favorites.

John: Oh, yeah!

Josh: Eating it dry too is just delicious. Yeah. That’s like a midnight snack, you know.

John: There you go. There you go. We got four more. For your books, more audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Josh: Real book. Always real book.

John: Real book.

Josh: Dealing with the computer all day. I want something tangible that I can sit somewhere quiet.

John: True. Good for your eyes. How about a least favorite vegetable?

Josh: That’s a hard one. I like a lot of vegetables.

John: Okay.

Josh: Lima bean.

John: Oh, there it is. Something rare out there then. Okay. All right. How about a favorite number?

Josh: 7.

John: 7. Mine too. Is there a reason?

Josh: Lucky #7. I think that’s about it I guess.

John: No, no, that works for me. It’s the most popular answer by far on here that I get. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Josh: Right now is my Boba Fett stuff.

John: Right, right. Is it like full-on head-to-toe costume?

Josh: Yup. I’m gonna be Boba Fett for Halloween. I’m gonna make an Ironman next. The full Ironman getup ’cause you can print it for like nothing.

John: Yeah, which leads right into talking about 3D printing. And how did that get started? ‘Cause, clearly, it wasn’t something you were doing as a kid.

Josh: I always wanted to be a mechanical engineer at one point in my life, and I just didn’t wanna do as much math. Believe it or not, accounting was easier to get a degree and then going to be a mechanical engineer. So I liked the way things work and move. And so, I ordered a full Boba Fett costume, which cost quite a pretty penny. And I’ve always wanted a 3D printer. And then I saw watching videos and stuff. I’m like I could have made this costume for like 300 bucks instead of spending three grand on it. And so, I ordered a 3D printer, and I’ve just been hooked. Now, I got three.

John: So you got the Boba Fett costume and a 3D printer, so like you doubled the—

Josh: Three.

John: Three 3D printers. Okay.

Josh: And then I went and bought 3darmory.com, which isn’t live yet because I need to wait to write off my hobby. So I plan to make money at it, but I don’t care if I make a ton of money. Just enough to break even and allow me to print stuff.

John: That’s awesome.

Josh: Yeah.

John: Can you 3D print a 3D printer?

Josh: Yes, technically, but there’s still metal components and stuff you’d have to put—

John: Okay. Okay. So like the box itself or whatever. I mean, maybe I’ve seen like some videos or whatever where somebody takes like a chunk of plastic and then all of a sudden it’s like whatever comes out.

Josh: You create almost anything you can imagine.

John: That’s awesome. And so, is it like a program on the computer that you basically do the drafting of and then spit it out to the computer just like you print a piece of paper?

Josh: There’s all kinds of free files. You can just get free files and use the file. Then you have to put that into a software. And then that like puts the lines ’cause we were basically printing lines on top of lines. So you could just grab a file and print. The hardest part is learning to like get all the axes to coordinate. Right?

John: Yeah.

Josh: But if you wanna do 3D modeling, then you have to have a different software where you actually build, but I mean like you can literally create anything.

John: That’s awesome, man. I would just be printing nonstop. And it’s something that you have in your office there at DKK Accounting

Josh: Yeah. They’re sitting in the office. I actually sold couches to make more room for the 3D printers in the waiting area.

John: Love it!

Josh: But you know, everybody “Hey, what’s that?” And then I get to sit and show ’em like “Hey, I’m making an Ironman outfit.” And they’re like “Oh, my kid would love that.” And you know, I’m hoping I can build the whole costume and maybe go to the cancer ward and show up as Ironman and make someone’s day. Like it just a fun thing to do, you know.

John: Yeah. Or just go grocery shop. Like why not, man? Forget make my kids’ day. It makes my husband’s day. It makes everyone’s day. It’s like “That’s awesome, man.” Like just start high fiving people.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah.

John: I love it, man. That’s really cool. That’s really cool. And so, I guess it’s mostly focused on like Boba Fett and Ironman type of things that you’re printing?

Josh: Right now, yeah. There’s other things that— tool holders. So like Milwaukee impact gun, you can make a tool holder or a battery holder. I’m gonna print something that takes the Milwaukee battery, connects it. And I’m gonna use that to connect the power to the suit. So like it’s not just printing too. I mean, it’s wiring and diagramming. And so, there’s just like this never ending deep dive into this fun hobby basically.

John: Yeah. No. I love it. That’s super awesome, man. It’s also awesome that it’s something that you share at work with clients and with coworkers. Was there ever a part of you that was like “No, one’s gonna care, I shouldn’t talk about it”?

Josh: I just put it in the office.

John: You didn’t even think about it.

You were like “Nope, this is it.”

Josh: You know, I got the helmet in there. It just immediately started opening up people. “Oh, is that the Star Wars helmet?” It’s created conversation just having the helmet in the office. And now, with the 3D printer, it’s like people are way more interested in that than they care about picking up their taxes, you know.

John: Right. Right. And why do you think that is?

Josh: People want a connection. I mean, it happens to be that you do some kind of service for them. But really, what they’re paying for is the relationship and the quality of service you give someone. You can get the same thing done anywhere else. So what are you really paying for? This my philosophy anyways.

John: Yeah, no, you’re totally right. I mean, 99.9% of all of our jobs are a commodity. I mean, there’s somewhere else that does the exact same thing. And so, to hang our hat on “we’re the best because we’re really good at what we do”, well, so is this place down the street. Like who is not good that they wouldn’t be in business anymore, you know? And so, the differentiator is the guy with the Boba Fett helmet and the 3D printer and is waiting area.

Josh: I think it really comes down to how you treat people. I mean, I think the bigger business gets the more away they are from the customer. And they don’t realize like the people probably who should be paid the most are the people dealing with your customers because that’s where all the money comes from. And if they’re not building those relationships, then they’re gonna go somewhere where someone’s going to give them that relationship. Just my philosophy.

John: No, that’s an excellent point. You’re totally right. And it’s more than just doing a good job and having sound technical skills. It’s the other things actually is what they’re paying for.

Josh: The soft skills I think they call it. Right?

John: Yeah. Yeah. Interpersonal skills, what have you, yeah.

Josh: You can teach someone to do the technical stuff, but you can’t always teach someone to do that part of it.

John: Amen, man. And I think it’s becoming harder to find those every day. It’s crazy. And you just care, you know. It’s simple, but not easy. For some reason, just care and then everything good comes from that.

Josh: Agreed.

John: And so, do you feel at all like 3D printing gives you a skillset or something that you bring to work? Like is there any of it that translates over either as it’s a complete reprieve from work, so it’s super cool to unplug and do something that’s fun that you’re energized about or is it something that, wow, these are similar skillsets that kind of overlap from the 3D printing world to the DKK Accounting world?

Josh: I think it’s more of a relaxed thing. I mean, it’s a nice conversation piece. It wasn’t my intention for it to be that. It just has become that, which is cool to know that other people have— You know, it opens up the conversation. It brings in the relationship, which is great, because half the fun is being able to get to know people and help them. But yeah, I just did it because I wanted to do it and I came down to it. I just decided to—

John: No, totally. It’s what’s been interesting from doing so many interviews, is how you’re doing it for the pure joy of you enjoy doing it. But oftentimes, there’s an accidental byproduct of, wow, there’s a lot of Star Wars fans out here. Wow, there’s a lot of Ironman fans out here. Wow, there’s a lot of people that have no clue about 3D printing and are just fascinated by it. And so, you know, you’re able to create these conversations and create these connections with people that are so much deeper and richer than if you were just really good at accounting, and then they came in and you gave them their financials, and then they left.

Josh: Even people who really don’t care about Star Wars or anything, they’re still interested in the 3D printer. Like what’s that? What’s it doing? You know?

John: Right? Exactly. So I think that’s what’s so cool about it is, you know, there’s always an extra thing that your and gives you beyond the intrinsic joy for yourself. There’s always something that creates a relatability factor at work, which matters, you know. Because at the end of the day, your firm is dealing with a business, but it’s still a human-to-human connection that happens, so you gotta nurture that. And I think that’s super cool, man. And I think it’s great that you brought it right in. You’re like “Look, I’m not even just gonna tell you about it. I’m gonna show you it’s right here. It’s running right now.”

Josh: It’s right in the waiting room. Too many people wait. You know, these people schedule appointments. So I’m like I’m gonna sell the big couches and I’m gonna make a little more room for my 3D printer cause there’s wasted space.

John: And then they have to walk by it. They see it. What is this? Oh, well, let me tell you. And you know, that’s great, man. I think that’s awesome. And then before 3D printing, was there something else that maybe you were able to create connections with people on or is 3D printing kind of the thing that sort of just kicked the door open on this?

Josh: It’s kicked the door open since I’ve done this for sure. I think it might be a different knickknack in the office or just something in conversation, you know. I think you can always find something to relate to somebody by because we all have similar experiences.

That’s just my experience. You know, I like people. I’ve tried a lot of things before accounting that I’ve been able to bring into accounting. Like I didn’t know working at a retail clothing store would benefit me owning an accounting firm, but it sure did. You know, like it’s great. I don’t know.

John: Yeah. And I love how you said too just having a knack or having something in your office that you see it, it brings you joy, but it’s also a little bit of an opportunity for someone to ask about, you know. And so, showing just a little bit of your humanness lets people wanna glob on to that, so that’s kind of where it starts. I guess you just have something small in your office and then let people ask about it and then see what happens. I think for people that are listening that are like “Well, how do I do this”, it’s like, well just bring something in.

Josh: You have to find some common ground between and you gotta build. Trust is earned, not given. And I just slowly build it over time. You get really deep, great relationships. I mean, we’ve had generations of families.

John: Nice.

Josh: I haven’t seen all the generations, but I’ve seen the tail end of the new generations coming in that the families continue to come, and you just get to know these people. And it’s a great feeling. Sometimes you’re like I don’t wanna see people.

John: Yeah. But I mean, it’s cool just to know that like you’re creating that connection and you’re touching people in a way that makes them wanna keep coming back and share it with others. And it’s that humanness that we often forget about with AI, and tech, and all these fancy things. It’s like, yeah, but we still gotta be human.

Josh: I think the AI and tech is great. It should give you more time to give you that customer service and that relationship. That’s where the power is because you can have something automate everything, but you still need someone to translate it.

John: Right. And have some empathy or be able to, yeah, tell someone in a way that’s—

Josh: That they understand because not everybody learns the same way. As a tutor in college, if they don’t understand this way, you have to explain it in a different way. And so, most of what I do is that now. It’s less of the work and it’s more of the relationship, and it’s great. I don’t know. I love it.

John: No. What what’s cool to hear too is all these different back stories to who you are, that play into DKK Accounting now. You know, the retail work, being a tutor, tinkering with mechanical things. You know, all these things that they all come together and make you better at your job. And if any of those you were to leave outside the office or act like they don’t exist or whatever, then you’re not gonna be as good. And so, I love that, man. So many great examples that you’ve dropped just in conversation where it’s like “What?! Yeah! That’s cool.”

Josh: I think too many people try to be the person that they want the person to— I’m saying it wrong, but try to perceive you as this way. But realistically, you win when you’re yourself at the end of the day.

John: Yes. I love that man.

Josh: Depending on who I’m with, you know, I work with a lot of construction people, we might swear because that’s just common in the construction industry. And you’re gonna relate to them in a way that, you know, you be your more self in certain aspects with other people.

John: I remember when I started at PWC right out of school and I walk in and there was a partner that— I mean, I don’t think he could say two sentences without a swear word being in there. And I was like “What?!” It’s like it doesn’t matter. Like it doesn’t matter. Like it’s not like, you know, one is less professional or less whatever. It’s just it’s who you are. All right. Cool. You know? And he’s a partner. So clearly, he was okay.

Josh: Look at Gary Vaynerchuk. He swears all the time. But you know, he has great things to say. I mean, he’s authentic. I think that’s what it comes down to.

John: Right. And if it’s your cup of tea, then great. If it’s not, also great

Josh: Could be your wrong client. It’s not your ideal client.

John: Maybe somebody’s really anti-Boba Fett. Okay, I’m not your guy. Like I’m not your guy.

Josh: We got someone else for you. Don’t worry.

John: Right. Exactly. Some Spock-type person. What?! But no, I love it, man. This is so awesome. And so, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe has an and that they feel like no one’s gonna care about ’cause it has nothing to do with my job?

Josh: It shouldn’t matter what someone else cares about. You should do what makes you happy, and everything else will follow.

John: Yes.

Josh: I think people get in their minds that— I love the John Lennon quote. The teacher said, “What do you wanna be when you grow up?” And he says, “Happy.” And the teacher is like “You don’t understand the assignment.” He’s like “You don’t understand life.” Life is that simple I think.

John: Yeah. Simple, but not easy.

Josh: You know, it’s hard. Yeah.

John: Yeah. I mean, the simpler that you want it to be, the harder it is. Our minds and everything. But that’s so rich, man. That’s so good. So this has been so much fun and I might need to go get a 3D printer now before you buy a fourth one, but I feel like it’s only fair since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning that we turn it around and make it The Josh Standley Podcast, and I’m all yours. So whatever you wanna ask, fire away.

Josh: If you have a superhero power, would it be flying or invisibility and why?

John: Oh, wow.

Josh: We did this in a psychology class and it got super deep. It was really fun.

John: Yeah. That’s a good one. Like I feel like flying would be just like awesome because then you could just fly. I’m gonna go flying, I think, yeah. ‘Cause invisibility I feel like could be used for evil.

Josh: So can flying maybe.

John: Yeah. Well, I guess that’s true too, but I feel like flying is more of like, well, this is cool, but then I can go places and I can go see things, travel, and all that stuff. So yeah, I’ll go flying.

Josh: Cool.

John: Hopefully, that means that we can still be friends. I don’t know what the deep rooted psychological thing of that is, but—

Josh: I don’t remember. It just became this huge like 2 days in the class we just talked about it. It was just super fun.

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh: And people just analyze and picked it up apart. I don’t really know.

John: Yeah. No, that’s a good question though for sure.

Josh: So my next one is would you rather have a cabin or a mansion?

John: Oh, a cabin. Yeah. Cabin like just unplugged just out there. Just, I mean, cabins can still be nice that’s for sure. But a mansion is like, man, that’s a lot of. You gotta clean it and like all the— like sort of windows a wash.

Josh: I thought about that.

John: I mean, you would assume that you have someone to do it for you if you own a mansion, but I’m sure I wouldn’t.

Josh: You can get a mansion in Minnesota for like 2-3 million, which is like a regular house in California. But if you had a mansion, like you would have to have staff to clean it. It would just get dusty in parts. You wouldn’t use like 90% of it. That’s crazy to think about.

John: Exactly. It just seems wasteful. The cabin, out in nature, just unplug and just go veg out. And I would fly there naturally.

Josh: Yeah. It goes into my next question. Would you rather drive or fly?

John: You know, and that is a really good question.

Josh: Both are great.

John: Yeah. Both are great. And you know, the driving is to see the journey and blah, blah, but sometimes the journey’s far.

Josh: Yeah.

John: Like I’m not driving to Costa Rica. Like I’m flying. Like one overnight, I’ll drive and it will be not annoying. But anything longer than that, it’s like I’m flying. I mean, unless it’s gonna be a road trip where we circle around and hit a bunch of places. But yeah, if we’re going to one place, then let’s get there and yeah. Maybe I’ll sit in the window seat so I can look out a little bit and we’ll combine it.

Josh: Might depend who you’re traveling with too. That makes a difference if you’re stuck in a car for days.

John: That’s a good point. Yeah. Yeah. But I did a ton of driving when I did standup full time. I had like a ton of driving. So I’ve certainly put in my driving time to even that out, so yeah. Well, this has been so much fun, Josh, having you be a part of What’s Your “And”? Thanks so much for taking time to do this.

Josh: And thanks for having me, man. This is great.

John: Everybody, if you wanna see some pictures of what Josh has been printing or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything is there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.