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Welcome to Episode 485 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. It goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and listening to it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the workplace cultures where they are because of it.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Fara Rosenweig. She’s the head of content marketing at WorkRamp in the San Francisco Bay Area. And now, she’s with me here today. Farah, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Fara: Thank you, John. I’m so excited to be here and chat with you on What’s Your “And”?

John: No. This is gonna be awesome. And you have an awesome “and.” But before we get into it, I have some rapid-fire questions here to get to know Fara right out of the gate. So, maybe an easy one. Favorite color.

Fara: Ooh, pink.

John: Pink? Okay. Okay. How about a least favorite color?

Fara: Maroon.

John: Maroon! Nice! Okay.

Fara: That was a tricky one.

John: That’s not a color you hear. Yeah. You don’t hear it super often. And I am with you on that. It’s a little too dark.

John: Yeah. It doesn’t lift my spirits.

Fara: Right. Right.

John: How about a TV show that you would binge watch?

Fara: Oh, Sex in the City.

John: Ah, yeah. And they’re back now. Right?

Fara: And just like that, yes, they’re back and I’ve binged watched all of those.

John: Right. Well, ‘cause wasn’t it something where like they were releasing on like normal shows back in the day where it was like one a week?

Fara: Yeah. And that’s what they did too and it was very frustrating. So, I had to wait a few weeks so I could binge a few shows.

John: How did we make it through the `90s? How did we do it?

Fara: Yeah.

John: That’s so funny. There you go. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzle?

Fara: Oh, crossword.

John: Crossword, okay. There you go. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Fara: Actor Paul Rudd.

John: Oh, yeah. He’s great.

Fara: Yeah. Actress Julia Roberts.

John: Oh, nice. Yeah.

Fara: Yeah.

John: Classics. There you go. And very funny both of them.

Fara: Yeah.

John: Very funny. Would you say more shower or bath?

Fara: Shower.

John: Shower, there you go. Just get in and out. Let’s do this. I’m similar. I’m like if I didn’t have to, I wouldn’t like why am I near. Like let’s just do this. That’s awesome. Ooh, here’s a fun one. Maybe a least favorite vegetable.

Fara: Oh, mushrooms.

John: Mushrooms, okay.

Fara: Uh-huh.

John: Yeah. They’re kinda weird. Right?

Fara: I think it’s the consistency. I don’t know. I’ll eat it if I have to. But if I have to choose, I’ll forego.

John: When I was on a recruiting visit with PricewaterhouseCoopers, I was in college, and I just wanted the job. And we went to dinner, and the guy that was recruiting me ordered like what’s the big one that’s like—

Fara: Oh, Portobello?

John: Yeah. And I was like “Oh, no.” ‘Cause those are meanie.

Fara: Yeah. And you got to eat it, right, because you’re like recruiting.

John: You couldn’t like with a drink pour it in a plant.

Fara: Yeah. No. You gotta eat it.

John: I was like “Oh, my gosh.” Like I’m still having repercussions from that, but here we go. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Fara: Oh, Star Wars.

John: There you go. On May 4th. Of course, it is Star Wars. There you go.

Fara: And your birthday week. Happy Birthday! I forgot to mention that at the top. That’s so awesome. So awesome. There you go. How about a favorite season? Summer, winter, spring, or fall? Oh, probably fall.

John: Fall? Yeah, me too.

Fara: Yeah. It’s boot season.

John: Yeah. Right. Right. How about your computer, more PC or Mac?

Fara: Mac. Apple products all the way.

John: Oh, there you go. There you go. Yeah. You are a marketer. That makes sense.

Fara: Yeah. I’m a walking advertisement for Apple stuff.

John: You’re all in.

Fara: Except the iWatch. I don’t have the iWatch. I’m Garmin all the way.

John: Oh, okay. Okay.

Fara: Yeah. That’s like the only switch right there.

John: Switch.

Fara: Yeah.

John: Yeah. Well, I’m sure it’s only a matter of time until they buy Garmin and then it’s mine. Make Fara’s dreams come true. How about a favorite Disney character?

Fara: Oh, my goodness. It’s gonna be one of the princesses. Let’s go with Belle from— Yeah, Belle. Beauty and the Beast Belle.

John: Okay. Beauty and the Beast. Okay. There you go. Yeah. Totally good one. How about are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Fara: Early bird.

John: Early bird. Okay. Yeah. Most runners I guess tend to be like that.

Fara: Yeah.

John: We got four more. Would you say more print or digital marketing?

Fara: I am digital marketing like I live and breathe digital marketing.

John: You prefer digital. Yeah. Yeah.

Fara: Yeah. But I prefer actually like reading print marketing. Like I like those postcards. I like everything paper, but I’m in the digital world. So, I have to go digital.

John: Okay. All right. Yeah. You don’t wanna get kicked out.

Fara: And I want a job.

John: There you go. There you go. There you go. How about a favorite number?

Fara: 7.

John: 7. Yeah. Is there a reason?

Fara: I have no. Ever since I was little, I just kept on saying 7 was my lucky number.

John: No. No. It’s a very popular one. I was just curious. Yeah. No. That’s just as good of a reason as any. And maybe I know the answer to this one based on your last answer, but books. Audio version, e-Book, or a real book?

Fara: Oh, real book all the way.

John: That’s what I was guessing.

Fara: I bought a Kindle in 2020.

John: Oh, wow.

Fara: I mean, it was great. I can’t believe I waited this long. Actually, no. It was 2019. Excuse me. Right before the pandemic, but I still prefer the real deal.

John: Yeah. Absolutely. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Fara: My dog.

John: Oh, yeah. What kind of dog?

Fara: I have a Golden Doodle.

John: Oh, nice!

Fara: He is a puppy.

John: Oh, there you go. There you go. What’s his name?

Fara: His name is Doug.

John: Doug, yes. I love that. I love that. That’s so good.

Fara: Yeah. I got him in the middle of the pandemic. I’m a dog person. I got him in the pandemic. And I am so grateful for his companionship. He is just a bundle of joy.

John: That’s so great. And his name is Doug. So, it’s even better.

Fara: Yeah. Exactly.

John: So, it’s like “Doug, don’t poop on that.” And it’s like “What? Who are you talking to?”

Fara: It’s great. At the dog park, people are like “Is his name Doug or Dog?” And I’m like “No. Doug like Douglas.”

John: Right? Like are you yelling at some random guy across the—

Fara: Exactly.

John: Nope. My dog. That’s so good. I love it. That’s so awesome. That’s so awesome. Well, let’s talk running and running Ragnars and marathons.

Fara: Let’s do it. All of that.

John: Like Forrest Gump running. How did you get started running? Were you always into this when you were a kid?

Fara: No. Believe it or not, I hated running. I hated it. I remember in middle I had a knee injury and I had my doctor write a note saying I can’t run the mile like I absolutely hated it and then I actually danced a lot. Like I did ballet and tap, jazz all my childhood, and in high school, and even in college. But in middle school, I think it was like 7th or 8th grade, because I was doing so much outside of school activity 3 to 4 hours after school, I was able to get out of gym completely.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Fara: So, in middle school, I didn’t have to run. I didn’t have to participate in PE. It was amazing. And then in high school, because I was part of the dance team and the cheer team, I didn’t have to do PE. Instead, I was practicing with my cheer team or dance team. So, I never had to run.

John: Oh, yeah. It makes sense. It wasn’t until college— I wanna say it was my junior year of college. I wasn’t 21 yet, so 19 or 20. My girlfriend, she was a runner. She was a soccer player, started running. And she was in great shape. And at that point, I had a couple injuries. So, I wasn’t dancing as much. I was really working out a lot. I loved the gym and that’s like my playground. And I was like “Well, she can do it. Like she’s in great shape. She can do it. Well, why not? I’ll do it.” And so, I ran a 5K. And I was like “Oh, that was easy.” And then I signed up for a marathon, but I was petrified everyone’s gonna laugh. I was petrified to run outside. I had no idea.

This was before Strava even came around. Like there were no apps. I was either using a Discman to listen to music or like the very first iPods. I can’t remember. It was very clunky. And I was petrified to run outside because I didn’t know how to navigate roads or anything like that. So, I literally trained on a treadmill at the gym. I plopped myself in front of the TV because the college I went to had these great TVs and you can plug your headphones into the treadmill and listen. So, I was either watching the news or whatever rom-com they had on. And I would just run aimlessly on the treadmill and that’s how I trained for my first race.

John: And that’s also how you came to love Paul Rudd and Julia Roberts because they’re in all the rom-coms.

Fara: Yeah. The best time if anyone’s like how could you do it, I tell you the best times to run on a treadmill was like during a sporting event if it was like football or basketball March madness because you get like that adrenaline and you’re like “Go!” Yeah. I trained on a treadmill for my very first—

John: That’s impressive.

Fara: …race.

John: Well, you probably would have run a marathon from getting lost. So, I mean, it’s good that you didn’t go outside because you would have been like I just did two marathons just trying to get home. Like I don’t even know. Yeah. That’s so awesome. And so, you just got started there. And then ever since, you’ve just been signing up and going?

Fara: Yeah. I think part of it is like I’m a very competitive person and a part of it is the only competition is myself. So, whatever I set mentally, I was like “okay, this is what I’m gonna do” and I’m gonna achieve it. I’m not competing with anyone else. So, I think that was part of it. And then also, at that time, running wasn’t very popular. Even fitness was not the industry than what it is now. And so, I was like “Look at what I’m doing and look at what all you are doing. I’m way better.” It sounds terrible, but so many of my friends were achieving all these other things in whatever career they were doing.

John: In life.

Fara: Yeah. They’re getting married or having kids and like look what I’m doing. I’m doing these things that a lot of people can’t set out to do. That was also my motivation.

John: We’re each in our own lanes, you know, and doing our own thing. That’s great, you know, ‘cause I mean so many people feel like “Well, I have to do this certain thing or I have to be this certain way at work or in life.” And you don’t. You don’t at all. Like none of those things.

Fara: Yeah.

John: I would even venture to say that a good percentage of those people aren’t doing it because that’s who they are. They’re doing it because of those reasons of they feel like they have to, or be this thing, or whatever. And it’s like be you. That’s so cool. So, do you have a favorite race or some fond memories that you have from some of those?

Fara: I do. I have a few favorites. I have to say they’re half marathons, but the Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, they’re both full marathons and halves. but the Tel Aviv and Jerusalem races are epic. I did them— Oh, what years were they? 2016 and 2018 or 2019. I can’t remember when the Tel Aviv was. I mean, you are running through history. How epic is that? And it’s just being international. You see just a complete different culture of people running, the types of attire. I was just fascinated by how people train in different climates and stuff. So, it was just amazing. And it’s honestly the best way to see a city, is by running. So, so I prefer the half marathon distance because it’s less training than a full marathon, but you still tackle such grounds to see epic scenery. It’s a toss-up between those two.

John: Those are both awesome though.

Fara: Yeah. They’re great.

John: Yeah. And you’re right. I mean, instead of doing a walking tour, well, why don’t we just run this and I get a T-shirt? And like everything’s good.

Fara: And a medal.

John: Right. And a medal.

Fara: And a banana at the end.

John: A banana. Right. I did one half marathon in my life. And yeah, it was like “Give me the banana. Let’s go. I’m out. I’m retiring. This is enough.” You find out the guy from Kenya did it in like 10 minutes and I’m like out there for 2 hours. I mean, I broke 2 hours, so I was pretty impressed with that.

Fara: That’s great.

John: But then I was like “You know what? That’s good and I’m done so like we’re out.”

Fara: Yeah.

John: And so, that’s awesome all over the world. And the pictures that you have at What’s Your “And”? on the show page are really cool too.

Fara: Oh, yeah. Every race has a great memory to it.

John: Right?

Fara: Yeah. I just love it. Yeah.

John: It’s so cool. And is this something that you talk about with coworkers or clients? Does it come up?

Fara: It does come up. When I find out someone’s a runner or some sort of a weekend warrior, we usually end up geeking out a little bit about “oh, what are you trading for” or “what gym do you go to….” So, it’s a great conversation starter. It’s a great way to meet people. Whenever I travel, especially if I’m in a new city or if I move anywhere, I go find a gym, or a running club, or something and that’s the best way for me to connect with people, and meet people, and just build those different types of relationships.

John: Yeah. Even at work, it’s connecting on a human level as opposed to what work do you do. It’s like “Well, we’ll get to that in a minute like who are you?” That’s awesome.

And so, do you feel like the relationships with the people that are weekend warriors are maybe just a little bit different than everyone else in the office?

Fara: Yeah. I think we just have a different bond I guess.

John: Totally. Of course.

Fara: (A) You build a different relationship. So, I find it’s easier to work with people when you build that relationship. And then also, they set a goal and they try to achieve it. I don’t care how long it’s gonna take them. I don’t care if it takes them 16 weeks versus 8 weeks to train for something. I don’t care if they’re in shape or overweight. They set a goal. They’re trying to do it. And so, in a work environment, when you connect with people like that, they have that same mentality. I would say 95% of this type of person, they have that mentality. I’m gonna have a goal. I’m gonna do it. There might be multiple ways to get there, but I’m gonna do whatever it takes to get to my goal. So, it’s a great environment to work in because everyone wants to perform well at work. I shouldn’t say everyone. Most people want to.

John: Right. I mean, I’m sure there’s one.

Fara: Yeah. There’s always that one, but yeah. It helps working with people with like mindsets because at the end of the day, we wanna help each other succeed and we’re each other’s biggest cheerleader. So, it’s like “Okay, this is what you wanna achieve. Let’s figure out how we’re gonna tackle it together. What’s gonna be our training plan?” And we all know it’s not a sprint. It’s a marathon. So, we have to just chisel away each step of the way to get to that overall goal.

John: Yeah. No, I love it. And you’re right. I mean, you can’t ask someone to not bring that mindset to work because what am I supposed to come to work with? Like one arm tied behind my back? Like why would I do that? Like I have these other skills that are above and beyond my college degree, and my certifications, and my trainings that there’s a skillset that’s from your “and” and that mentality and that mindset certainly plays out at work. And you can’t turn it off.

Fara: No.

John: And it’s cool that you are proactive in wanting to find out about people. And even if they’re not weekend warriors, there’s something else, but it’s like, well, you have a different mindset, a different skillset than I do. So, when we need that, I’m definitely coming to you.

Fara: Oh, totally. Yeah. And you know, it’s kind of my philosophy— Some people agree with it. Some people don’t. But there’s more than one way to get somewhere. The same thing in a work environment. There’s more than one way and I bring a lot of strength to the table. I also don’t have a lot of strength, but that person might bring those other strengths. And then together, we can just create world domination.

John: There it is. There it is. That’s it. World domination, I love it. And the people think that there’s only one way or definitely not doing the best way. They’re just doing a way and they think it’s good enough and then they’re like okay, but then we’re just gonna do this. And it’s like not really.

Fara: Yeah.

John: You know, there’s other ways, but I love that so much. And I guess how much is it on an organization to be able to create that space to allow people to share or encourage people sharing their “ands” versus how much is it on the individual? Like in your case, it sounds like just finding out like just ask.

Fara: I think it’s a combination of both. It depends on the person. Some people might be very shy and closed, so they don’t want to share. And then that’s where I come in. I can kind of read people and, weird, I like to talk. I like to connect with people. So, I’m gonna be that person that’s gonna ask those questions anyway. But on the flipside, it’s great if people can come out and say “Oh, this weekend, I did X, Y, Z.” And so, that’s kind of the icebreaker and then you can start domino effect. “What’s your weekend hobby?” “Oh, running.” “Oh, what trail did you do?” Or this, that, and you kind of go down that rabbit hole and then it’s a great way to connect with people.

John: Yeah. I wonder how many rabbit holes you go down that are work related versus running related. I’m guessing not very many.

Fara: Yeah.

John: I mean, human nature, it’s just— You know, we think that the work-related conversation is what we have to do. Work gets done and you have to be good at your job. And you certainly have to get that done. It’s just it’s very rare that you’re running down these rabbit holes that are work related where you’re like “What? No way. What?” but when it’s something “and” related, then, man, we’re gone. I don’t even know what we did this afternoon. I just ordered a new pair of shoes. You got a new running watch. Like we’re all good. You know, we signed up for races in Jerusalem and what’s up? But that’s so cool to hear that that happens and that you’ve experienced that for sure. And I guess what would be some barriers to people not wanting to share? Maybe, like you said, they’re maybe a little shy.

Fara: I guess the barriers are they might not feel safe in that environment yet and it might take them some time to break it down, which is completely okay.

No one’s forcing you to talk about your personal life. So, I suggest waiting until you feel comfortable. Or if you overhear someone talking about it in a meeting, that’s when you can kinda chime in. Slack these days, they have different channels for different sports, different hobbies, or your different “ands.” So, that’s when you can join in those slack channels and kind of oversee and then slowly start that conversation. So, I used to be like that like not really wanting to talk about some of my personal stuff. I felt judged. I wasn’t sure. Now, over the years, I’m like whatever. If you don’t want to share, you don’t have to share, but then you’re also missing out on some sort of personable relationship that can help you in some way, shape, or form in the work environment. That’s kind of how I look at it.

One of my CMOs told me get to know a CFO quickly because they’re the ones that’s gonna give you the budget. A CFO that I used to work with, I think I saw a photo of him hiking or something. So, I just immediately like went there. I was like “Oh, I notice you hike.” Ask him the 20 questions and that was an icebreaker. We probably for like a month or two did not talk about work. I didn’t talk to him about teach me your CFO ways, like I wanna understand your lingo or anything. I just built that relationship first and asked him questions and then I was able to build a solid relationship. And you know what? I got almost every budget I wanted approved after that.

John: What do you know, right? I mean, it’s amazing how connecting as humans even though it’s in business, it’s still human to human transactions.

Fara: Right. Exactly.

John: And I love too how you were like I was afraid of being judged. I think most of that judgment is happening in our own minds.

Fara: Oh, totally.

John: Because once you started to share that you’re running, it’s like no one’s judging that. They were like “This is awesome. Like what? Like when’s your next one?”

Fara: Yeah. In 2 weeks actually.

John: Right. There you go. There you go. Yeah. And so, it’s just cool to hear how much of it is just in our own heads. And when you do share, and when you do get out, and when you do try to connect especially cross department like that, oh man, it’s magic and just what lights you up. Here’s what lights me up. And we’re humans and like let’s talk about it because it brings some emotion to work sort of a thing. To wrap this up, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone that maybe they like to run or they have another “and” that they feel like no one cares about or has nothing to do with their job?

Fara: If you feel like you’re the only one doing that, you’re not alone. There’s everyone out there doing some sort of “and” and maybe you’re not a runner, maybe you enjoy hiking, maybe you enjoy rollerblading, maybe it’s book club. I have a lot of friends who are faster runners than me or they’re more regimen about their eating habits. They have like a very strict diet especially race weekend, all this stuff. But at the foundation, we all have this thing like we enjoy doing something. We set this goal and we’re gonna achieve it. And I think that’s the thing that brings us together. So, don’t think you’re alone. There’s someone out there. I love actually connecting with newbies because I remember what it’s like as a newbie. It’s intimidating. I get so excited when people are like I’m doing my first 5K, 10K, whatever distance it is. I’m like I’m gonna be your biggest cheerleader. I text them in the morning, like race morning, good luck.

John: That’s awesome.

Fara: Because I remember what it was like. Almost every race I’ve gone myself, I’ve ran— it’s probably like 2 or 3 races I ran with people. So, I remember what that’s like and I didn’t have the support. And so, I just wanna provide that to people who might have those race day jitters and it builds a sense of community. And then also, I think another thing that I just love is that how people feel after. I just did that. I can’t believe I did that. And so, what an accomplishment to celebrate, so yeah.

John: Right. That’s super cool. Yeah. It’s just being alive and just sharing it. Like you said, slack channels are an easy way for you to just kind of creep around and you don’t even have to contribute. You just gotta look and you’re like “Oh, other people are doing this too.” And then eventually, you just share a little bit at a time and then what do you know. Before you know it, cool things and the CFO’s approving all your budget and like all that sort of goodness. That’s so awesome, Fara. Well, I feel like before we wrap this up, it’s only fair that I turn the tables because I so rudely asked you so many questions. We turn this into the Fara Rosenweig podcast and I’m your guest.

So, I’m all yours, whatever you wanna ask. Fire away.

Fara: First and foremost, I need to know what’s your “and.”

John: Okay. “And’s” college football, ice cream, concerts, play the piano a little bit, so yeah. I think those are good starts. So, definitely not running. Yeah. I retired after that half marathon.

Fara: But you know what? There’s a conversation there like “Oh, what half marathon did you do? You see what just happened?”

John: Yeah. Right.

Fara: Now, we’re connected.

John: In Indianapolis.

Fara: Okay.

John: And part of it was around the Indianapolis race track like the speedway.

Fara: So, that’s so cool.

John: Yeah.

]Fara: That’s so cool.

John: It was wild. 1And you don’t realize how banked that track is until you’re like running on it and you’re like “Woah, this is pretty slick. This is deep.”

Fara: So, you would never have even been able to experience that if you didn’t say “Hey, I wanna try running.” Now, you know you don’t wanna run, but you have this epic story when you ran on this track that no one’s ever been on.

John: Exactly right. Exactly right.

Fara: It’s so cool.

John: And my mantra the whole time was I didn’t wanna train as much as I guess you’re supposed to.

Fara: Yeah. That’s okay.

John: But my mantra was peak on race day. I was like I don’t wanna use up all my good stuff on training. I wanna use it all on race day. And luckily, I did all right.

Fara: Yeah.

John: Yeah. It’s all good. It’s all good.

Fara: You did it. That’s all that matters. You got to the finish line. You accomplished something. That’s epic.

John: Exactly. Exactly. There you go. Awesome. So, no, thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? And yeah, it’s just so great to have you be a part of this. So, thanks, Fara.

Fara: Oh, thank you. This was a pleasure John. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

John: So fun. And everyone, if you wanna see some pictures of Fara from some of her races or connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All that stuff is there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 483 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the workplace cultures where they are because of it.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Rick Maurer. He’s a speaker and adviser on change management and the author of seizing moments of possibility. And now, he’s with me here today. Rick, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Rick: Thanks, John. It’s good to be here.

John: Yeah. This is gonna be so much fun. Fellow trombone player. This is gonna be so awesome, but I do have some rapid-fire questions I have to ask before we get started. So, here we go. Maybe Star Wars or Star Trek?

Rick: Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. Yeah. Me too. Same. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Rick: Oh, PC.

John: Yeah. I’m the same too. All right. You might be just my ghost or Christmas future. It is what it is. We’re twins. Like this is.

Rick: Yeah.

John: How about when it comes to seasons? Summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Rick: Fall.

John: Yes. 3 for 3. This is amazing.

Rick: Oh, man.

John: All right. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Rick: Haagen-Dazs vanilla Swiss almond fudge.

John: Oh, wow. Okay. All right.

Rick: It’s amazing. Yeah.

John: Yeah. That does sound good. I haven’t had that yet. So, we’ll still count it. It’s an ice cream flavor, so that counts.

Rick: There you go.

John: How about a favorite day of the week?

Rick: Saturday.

John: Yeah. Totally. You just like veg out. Right?

Rick: Yeah.

John: Yeah. It’s not work where you don’t—

Rick: Well, I veg out every day, but yeah. But I don’t feel as guilty on Saturday.

John: There you go. I love it, man. That’s awesome. That’s so good. Since you are the trombone player, favorite position on the slide.

Rick: I don’t play a slide trombone. I play a valve trombone.

John: Oh! So then none of them. All right.

Rick: None of them.

John: In the first position. Like it’s your first position.

Rick: There you go. Yeah.

John: All right. So, you do the valve. Okay.

Rick: I do. Yeah.

John: All right. Is it still just 3 valves?

Rick: Yeah. It’s like the trumpet. I used to be a trumpet player.

John: Okay. Oh, there you go. All right. All right. That answers that one. Are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Rick: I wanna be a night owl. Unfortunately, life doesn’t work that way. So, I have to be an early bird. For instance, I did a call yesterday running a class for the Royal Danish Military Academy at 6 a.m. my time.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Rick: I know. But it’s really fun. So, I love doing these things. A lot of things in Europe, but it’s just these ungodly time.

John: Right. Right. Yeah. For me, it sounds ungodly. But yeah, for you, you’re like I’m ready to roll. Let’s do this.

Rick: Well, the miracle of caffeine helps a lot.

John: Right. Right. Yeah. I guess that’s true. I guess that’s true. How about a favorite number?

Rick: Wow. 7.

John: Yeah. Me too. Is there a reason? Like mine’s sports related for sure. I mean, you know, all the quarterbacks and all that whatever.

Rick: Oh, yeah. I have no idea why.

John: Yeah. No. That’s a good number. That’s a good number. How about books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Rick: I prefer real books. I tend not to use them as much, but I like having a book in my hand.

John: Yeah. Right. Okay. Okay. And you wrote a book, and the paperback and the audio version are on Amazon, but your e-Book is on your website, which is super cool. And what’s the website?

Rick: It’s rickmaurer.com.

John: Yeah. The e-Book is there if you wanna buy it and help them. The paperback and audio is there too, but the e-Book… So, that’s awesome, man. I just wanna plug it really fast.

Rick: Thank you.

John: All right. We got some more here. Cats or dogs?

Rick: Dogs.

John: Yeah. Me too. Same. I mean, yeah, cats are all right I guess, but I’m just afraid they’re gonna like swipe me, you know.

Rick: I’ll tell you. I was working in India and Kathy called me, my wife. And she said, “Hey, a friend of ours found these 2 kittens in a drain pipe outside.” Nothing about them seems like they’re feral. We’ve had them 3 years. They run to the door when we come home.

John: Oh. So, they’re like dogs.

Rick: They’re like low maintenance dogs.

John: Yeah.

Rick: Yeah, it’s really great. I like—

John: That’s great. You don’t have to let them out.

Rick: No, that’s right.

John: That’s right. That’s awesome. The low maintenance dogs. I love that. That’s so good. How about a puzzle? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzles?

Rick: The only ones I would ever even try is crosswords.

John: Okay. Yeah. That works. How about a favorite color?

Rick: Puce.

John: Oh, okay. All right. All right. Okay.

Rick: There you go.

John: That’s a first. Right? How about a least favorite color? Also puce. No, I’m just kidding.

Rick: Puce light I think.

John: Puce light. Pastel puce light

Rick: Yeah, that’s right.

John: That’s awesome. That’s hilarious. How about a favorite toppings on a pizza if you can load it up?

Rick: Oh, cheese. Just more cheese.

John: Oh, just more cheese. Okay.

Rick: Oh, yeah.

John: All right. Like a 4-cheese kinda. All right. I like that. All right. Three more. More shower or bath?

Rick: Shower.

John: Shower. There you go. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Rick: Well, Mark Rylance. A British guy. The fact that he was just in the movie, Don’t Look Up. He plays this kind of brilliant guy who owns the world.

John: Yes.

Rick: I’ve seen him live a few times. He’s marvelous.

John: Yeah. Yeah. That was a great movie.

Rick: Yeah.

John: How about a last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Rick: Favorite thing I have. On my wall here in my office, I have an album cover that Louis Armstrong signed for me.

John: Oh, what!

Rick: Yes.

John: That’s so cool, man. That’s great.

Rick: I went to a concert. My hometown in Ohio, it didn’t have a record store. The auto parts store sold records honest to God. And so, I knew I was gonna go see him. I wanted to get his autograph. And so, I had to drive over to the next town. And there was a candy store that sold records and they had one Louis Armstrong album. Not even a really good one, but I bought it. And at intermission, I went up and said “Mr. Armstrong, could I get your autograph?” And he said “Sure.” I wish I could do his voice because he was great. But he said “You don’t want just mine. Wouldn’t you like the bands’?” And I said “Yeah.” And he said “Well, come on backstage with me.”

John: That’s fantastic.

Rick: Yeah. So, he takes me back into the green room and all the guys are sitting there smoking. He said “Guys, this is Rick. Give him your autograph.” And one of the guys, the trombonist, heard the name wrong. And so, on the back of the record, it says “To Brick, have a great time.”

John: That’s awesome. Man, what a great story though. Like what a great experience and also too that he was like “Hey, I don’t do this without the whole band. Like do you want their autograph too?”

Rick: I was amazed. I mean, just to be in the presence. I’m not a star struck kind of guy, but man— I mean, he’s influenced me how I think about music, how I think about life in a lot of ways. To meet the guy was just like wow.

John: That’s awesome, man. I love it. That’s so cool and what a great memento and a cool thing to have on your office wall. That’s super cool, man. I love it. That’s great. So, let’s talk music and jazz. I mean, that leads right into it, which is perfect. I mean, did you grow up playing instruments?

Rick: I did. When the music teacher came around and said “so, who wants to play a musical instrument” and I did. So, there were some options, and I was watching— There was a show called Rin Tin Tin when I was a kid. And there was the bugler that would go out on these things with the cowboy. And I thought when we play cowboys, I wanan be the bugler. So, I got a trumpet and then I realized you could play other things other than that. I love classical and I love some country and all that, but I loved the whole idea of jazz. And we had a jazz big band in our school. And I couldn’t get enough. And some of my buddies and I formed a band. And it just stayed with me. I was a music major in college. Music was my life for a number of years.

John: That’s awesome, man. It’s so cool to hear. So then, it was trumpet and then valve trombone. Are there other instruments as well?

Rick: No. Actually, what had happened, I was playing in the concert band where I went to college. And I was sitting. There probably 12 trumpet players. And I was sort of in the middle of the section. And I realized by my sophomore year I was never gonna sit on that first stand. And I was talking to my teacher and I can’t remember if he said it or I said it. He said “Why don’t we try a bigger mouthpiece, which would be a trombone or euphonium?”

John: Baritone. Yeah. Yeah.

Rick: Yes, a baritone. And what was amazing is I was in the trumpet section and was just kind of in the pack. And when I switched instruments, I became section leader of the euphonium baritone section within a month. I was playing stuff I couldn’t even touch on trumpet. And so, I played that and then I went in the army as a musician on euphonium.

John: That’s incredible, man. That’s so awesome. Yeah. I mean, I started saxophone and then the re-vibration was weird on my teeth so that I went to trumpet because everyone you think plays trumpet.

Rick: That’s right.

John: But the mouthpiece was like too small for the way my mouth is and so yes. And then I went to trombone and I was like “Man, this is awesome.”

Like it’s great. Like it’s just perfect and a super fun instrument to play. And every once in a while, you get a little bit of a lead. But for the most part, you’re behind the scenes. But yeah, it’s funny when people are like “Oh, can you play this song?” And I’m like “I hope you like whole notes because it’s waaa… waaa…” Like I totally get to 1812 Overture, then let it rip, buddy. That’s where we come out like here it is. That’s so great to hear. You created a band like with your buddies and all that. Like that’s fun because it’s like you can’t get enough of it type of a thing. So, do you have like a favorite concert, or a rewarding story, or something that comes to mind over your playing days or even now?

Rick: Yup. 10 years ago, I got to know a guy named Carl Berger up in Woodstock, New York. And he was a pioneer in avant-garde jazz and free jazz. And what he got really good at is teaching people to play more spontaneously. So, even if they were playing written music, how do you plant— Like if you go to hear a tribute band or some of them they’re asleep at the wheel— I don’t mean the group asleep in the wheel.

John: Right.

Rick: And others who are going “Wow.” And so, he teaches you how to do that. So, he wanted to write a book. He’s German. And he said, “I speak English okay.” But he said, “I really like you to help me write it because you have written a lot of books, and I like what you’re doing with my stuff.” So, we wrote the book. It came out a couple of years ago. And 2 months ago, a buddy of mine, Mike Gaston, and I, went up to Woodstock. We live in the Washington, DC area. And we spent a day in a recording studio with Carl and Ken Filiano who is a very adventurous bass player. I had no desire for this to turn into something that I’m going to inflict on friends and relatives. What I wanted to do was the discipline of being in the studio, no music in front of me, a mic right there. And the way it was setup is so we can all see each other. We didn’t have baffles and all that stuff and just spending a day there and just trying stuff out. Carl said “All right. So, how about this?” He said “I’ll start something. Mike, you start something. Ken, you start something. Rick, you start something and then you just start improvising whatever you wanna do.” And it was a highlight.

John: It’s a magical moment, man. That’s super cool ‘cause, I mean, that’s the thing. I mean, I’m good at reading music, you know, playing the piano as well. But yeah, for jazz, I was good at the music side of it, but then it’s like “Okay. Now, it’s time for a trombone solo.” And I’m like “Ahhhh… Can you write it out for me?” I guess it just wasn’t as confident. You know what I mean? Especially when you’re in high school. You’re just sort of like, yeah, just not as confident in going off script. Like with the music in front of me, I’m great. Like I can totally read this and nail it, and give 2 times through and we’re good, but yeah. So, that’s an awesome experience and something where— because I mean that’s the weird thing, is life isn’t scripted. You know, this conversation is definitely not scripted. And so, you know, we do it every day and yet you put an instrument in my hand and I’m like “Ahhhh..” It’s like “Who cares? Like it doesn’t matter.” What is it supposed to be? And it’s like whatever you want it to be, man. Just let it go.

Rick: What you just said is certainly important in my life. I mean, the whole notion of starting with the structure, the tune, and then being able to improvise is exactly how I treat my work. I mean, if I had to do something day after day… “Hi! Today, we’re going to talk about… Oh, I have a story for you.” If I had to do the same stuff every day, I don’t know what I would do.

John: You would quit. Right? Right?

Rick: Yeah. So not only do I get to think about stuff, I get to keep trying stuff out. Everything always feels like a work progress and that works for me. I mean, it’s sloppier than the people who everything is scripted and now they cry on cue.

John: Right. Oh. Yeah.

Rick: I know. Yeah. That’s not me for better for worse. That’s what keeps my work refreshing at least for me.

John: No, I love it, man. And it’s just how much that music translates into your career. No one told you to play jazz and be a great musician and all this because it will make you better at your career, better consultant, but it clearly does. It clearly does. You know, our “and” give us the skillset that other people don’t have that maybe have the same degree or the same job title, but we have a different skillset.

Rick: Yeah. And you know, when I got out of college and then got out of the army, I enlisted in the army band. I was in for 3 years. I did not make it a career, although the band’s a really good band. I’m not a big fan of concert band music. I mean, it was fine when I played it, but I didn’t want that to be my career. And I also played a Herald trumpet, a bass Herald trumpet. And there are 16 of us and we would just follow the president around playing the chief.

John: Right. Yeah.

Rick: That was actually fun as a young guy, but I didn’t wanna make that a career. And so, and I quit playing. I basically quit playing for a lot of years.

John: Oh, wow.

Rick: But I’d go hear concerts. I would go to jazz clubs. I would be in my mind singing souls. And so, finally, I thought enough of this and I went on e-Bay, bought a trombone, got a teacher. And I said “Look, I wanna learn to play jazz.” That was, I don’t know, 15-16 years ago. Something like that. I had three really big consulting contracts. I mean, if you had looked at them, you would have gone “Woah, this is great.” And they were very lucrative. I mean, everything about it was really good except I hated all three of them. And I didn’t know that going in. And I mean, two of them, the clients just were acting in bad faith with each other. I mean, they just wanted to say “No. Well, we hired this guy. He wrote a book. And it didn’t make a difference.” But the third one, I said yes to something that didn’t excite me anymore. As a younger man, I would have gone “Wow, it’s a lot to learn in this.” And I didn’t realize I was phoning it in, and I didn’t like that about myself. And I didn’t realize it until way too late at any rate. So, I say to my wife “I am not good at this anymore.” And she said, “You know, I don’t think you’ve lost all your skills in the last 6 months. Maybe you were never any good.”

John: There you go. There you go.

Rick: You gotta see people. When I tell that story, people “Oh, you poor baby.”

John: No, no, that’s awesome. That’s so awesome.

Rick: She said “You know, you could be retired if you wanted. But if you wanna work, why don’t you back off a little bit and play more music?” And it took me a while to come around to that. And it’s funny. I was talking to a woman who had been a student of mine. And it’s funny. I was talking to a woman who had been a student of mine at the Gestalt Institute of Cleveland. And I was telling her the story. And she said “So, did you listen to your wife?” And I said “Well, not yet.” And she said “Why?” And I said “Well, you know, I don’t wanna retire. The concept just doesn’t fit for me.” But I said “I wanna know that I have the money there that in case I had to retire or something.” And she said “Well, how much more money do you need?” I said “I don’t know.” And she said “That will keep you working.”

John: Yeah.

Rick: So, the combination of Kathy making the joke and then Kim saying you gotta know what you need, I started thinking what if I only take on contracts that I think is gonna give me as much pleasure as music.

John: Oh, wow.

Rick: And so, it’s not like just taking time to make music, which I do. I mean, even right before our call, my horn is sitting arm’s length right here. I will play it later today. But how do I say yes to things that are going to enliven me just like practicing? And that’s made a huge difference. I might not have listened to someone giving me that advice when I first started because I was too hungry and I was trying to make a mark or something. But man, it’s made a huge difference in the quality of the work for me as well as I think for some of my clients.

John: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, you can tell. Like you said, you know, phoning it in and just kind of just going through the motions and whatever. And it’s so interesting to hear how you had put music aside for a long time because you thought “well, you know, that’s not what pays the bills or that’s not what’s important or whatever” and come to find out like that’s the foundation. That’s your joy and where you get the magic. If you don’t go to that well often enough, then you’re not as good of a person, let alone consultant, that you could be. So, it’s just cool to hear the difference between the non-music playing Rick and the now back to music playing Rick.

Rick: It’s a huge difference. Yeah.

John: Yeah. It’s just more alive I guess. It’s that source of life I guess. There’s depth to our “and” in these passions that we have outside of work. There’s real depth there. And I feel like it’s so easier for us to just put it on the backburner because that’s the first thing that’s “Well, it doesn’t matter, whatever.” But then it’s 10 years later and you’re like “What the hell? I haven’t done this in forever.”

Rick: I, I guess last year, started reading Harpo Marx’s autobiography. Your listeners might not know Harpo Marx, but you know his brothers.

John: Yeah. The Marx brothers.

Rick: Yes. He’s great at comedy.

John: And genius like wicked smart, people.

Rick: There you go.

John: Yeah.

Rick: I’m gonna paraphrase what the first paragraph was. But basically, he said “You know, I don’t know if in my life I’ve been a success or a failure.” And he said “But not knowing and actually not caring has allowed me to try out things I might never have tried out.” And I thought that could have been my mantra. Of course, I wanna be successful or I wanna do things well, but I’ve tried all kinds of things. Playwriting, a bunch of things. I didn’t make some national mark, but it was so much fun to do and to try out stuff.

So, to wait and say “okay, next year, I’m gonna do it” seemed—

John: That’s such a great quote. Plus too, like as people move up the corporate ladder, it’s like “well, now I’m the CFO” or “now, I’m the whatever C suite title, or even a manager title, or whatever.” And it’s like “Well, I can’t go and do that. It will look dumb if I’m not successful at it.” It’s like “No, it won’t.” It doesn’t matter. I mean, we’re all going through life. You know, I just love that where it’s give it a go. Who cares? You know, unless you’re Oprah— Like if you go by one name, then, all right, people are gonna— But even then, she’s so big that she doesn’t care. She’ll try things. Like it doesn’t matter. The lies we tell ourselves are so brutal and so limiting really. I mean, I’m as guilty of this as anybody. And so, it’s just cool to hear your experience through that and how important it is because there’s someone listening now that I’m sure had an “and” at one point and let it go. And it’s like “Get it back. Like what are you doing?” Right?

Rick: Yeah. I just thought of another story. My dad always kind of thought that these choices I was making were kind of really whackadoodle. Like what is he doing this time? And so, when I started writing plays, I was studying. And so, Kathy and I went home to my home for Thanksgiving. And my mom and Kathy had gone up to bed. And my dad and I are sitting there having a beer. And I never asked my dad for advice ever. Just wasn’t what I did because I never wanted to hear it.

John: Right.

Rick: But honest to God and I said—

John: No. No. It’s true. Yeah.

Rick: Yeah. And so, I said “I can use your advice.” I said “You know, I’ve been studying playwriting and have done some workshop things.” I said “I’m working on this play that I think could really actually be something good, but I need to take time to do it, which means I need to back off. Do you have any advice for me?” And he said “Yeah.” He started a furniture store in my hometown. And he said, “You know, I was working for a furniture store. It was really well-established.” And he said “I couldn’t get a loan from a bank.” And he said “I remember going into one bank and they said, well, Eddie, you have the most secure job in town. It’s been there for a century.” And my dad said “Oh, no, no. I have a job even more secure than that.” And they said “Really? What?” he said “I was in the army. They even gave me my underwear.” So, we both are laughing. And he said “You don’t wanna get to be 60 and go I wonder. I wonder if.” And he suddenly became my biggest supporter for that. He and my mom would come out and see when I had plays produced. I mean, it was really neat.

John: Yeah. What a powerful moment where you think “Well, he doesn’t get me. He doesn’t understand.” And he gets it 100% type of thing. Yeah. I’ve spoken at some like executive retreats or like partner retreats for professional services firms. And one in particular was a pretty huge— There were probably 120 partners for this accounting firm. And three of them were retiring. And it was an hour of stories about them. And there wasn’t a single mention of the amount of revenue they brought into the firm, or the number of clients, or number of hours they worked, or anything. They were just stories about life and who they were as people and things that we did outside of work and just all that. And I’m like “If you’re at the top, then, man, this is what really matters, you know.” So, everyone all along should also know that this is what matters or these stories. That’s so powerful, man. So powerful. And I love it so much. And I imagine too that the jazz plays into the change management that you do the consulting with because, like you said, I mean it’s unscripted and here we go. And you know, how do we work this out sort of thing.

Rick: Yeah. I mean, one of the things— It’s funny. In the book, I’m really talking about how do you blend support into what you’re already doing rather than change management sometimes is “Okay, when we have time, we’ll bring in the change management stuff.” And what I’m saying is “no, it needs to be blended in”, which means in some way or another you’re improvising. You’re trying something out like “Okay, if I did this presentation without slides, what might happen?” So, you’re just doing these tweaks here and there, but it’s a great way to learn. It’s also I think more fun.

John: Yeah. I mean, ‘cause the pressure isn’t there because it’s like “Well, it’s probably gonna fail 50% of the time or whatever” or we’ll see what happens. It’s experimental as opposed to this is the only answer type of thing.

Rick: It’s experimental within a structure. I mean, I’m not a fan of— I mean, some of the places where I studied. We’re all gonna get a room. Let’s see what emerges. I hate that. I just hate that. I’ll start the incense and give me a cab. I’ve gotta get out of here.

You’re there to do some work. Everybody knows we’re here to do some work, but the how we do it and the way we engage each other, there’s a lot of flexibility there. So, that’s really important to me. And so, that’s what I hope I bring always when I’m doing work.

John: For sure. Yeah. And I mean, it’s that music side of you that comes out. You know, you can’t hide it. You can’t not have that music brain turn on. And I love it so much, man. That’s awesome. So, Rick, before we kind of wrap up, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe has an “and” that they put on the backburner for a while or they don’t talk about at work because they don’t think it matters?

Rick: I realize that everyone’s situation can be different and there may be good reasons for saying I’ve got to put all this on the backburner for now.

John: Sure.

Rick: I also realized you may be paying the price if you’re doing that. And so, I would say even in a little way, if you can start to bring whatever that passion is into the work, I think it makes a difference in our actual work, but I think it makes our lives— for me at any rate, makes our lives richer.

John: For sure.

Rick: You know, more excitement in getting up in the morning.

John: No. Absolutely, man. I agree totally. So, it’s so cool to have you be a part of this. And I feel like it’s only fair since I peppered you with just questions at the beginning that I turn the table and make this the first episode of the Rick Maurer podcast. Thanks for having me on your show. So, whatever questions you’d like to ask—

Rick: I’m sorry, Joh, but we’re out of time. Hey, but it was great talking—

John: Exactly. I actually had a good friend who was booked on Letterman. And the first guest went long. It was like “Well, you got to come back.” And they weren’t able to come back. But yeah, you tell everybody “I’m gonna be on Letterman” and then “Well, no because so and so ran their mouth too long.” That’s hilarious. That’s so funny. Yeah, John, we’re done.

Rick: Actually, what I am curious about is— I mean, obviously, I agree with you on the “and” stuff, but what prompted you to say “Oh, I wanna go public with that, I wanna have a podcast about that kind of thing”?

John: That’s a great question. So, yeah. So, I was speaking at a conference, a pretty big conference. And I was backstage getting mic-ed up and the meeting professional comes back and she says “Hey, do you know this guy named Mark?” I’ll leave his last name off just for safety’s sake. And I was like “No, I’ve never heard that name in my life.” And she goes “Well, he knows you. He saw the speakers and right away goes “I know John Garrett. That’s the guy who did comedy at night.” I was like “What? Like who is this rain man? Like do I owe him 50 bucks? Like what’s going on?” So, I speak. I get off stage. I look on my link. He was in my first PWC office 12 years before that, and he was in the tax department, and I was one of those CPAs that doesn’t know how taxes work. So, I never went to that floor. I don’t know what Mark looks like. I never talked to mark. I never anything. And he remembers me for a hobby I did outside of work. And so, I started asking people like “Hey, do you have a hobby outside of work?” And people were kind of like “Keep it on the down low, but I like to…” you know, whatever their “and” was.

Almost everyone has something. And no one’s talking about it. And so, let’s just blow the doors off and make it a podcast where we all get to share what lights us up and what brings us joy and then other people get to hear it and then realize that they’re the norm. Like the stereotypical professional is somebody that has other dimensions to them besides work. And for too long, the 8% who don’t have a hobby or passion have bullied the 92% of us to believe that we have to act a certain way and you don’t. There’s so many different successful professionals out there that all look and sound totally different than the next. And why are we all trying to be like one thing? And it’s not even a cool thing. It’s super lame. At least be like a cool thing. Bring yourself to work. It’s more than just the authenticness. It’s just what lights you up. Start small. Yeah, that’s how it all started.

Rick: Oh, that’s great.

John: No, I appreciate it, Rick. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? and, yeah, also just taking time to be a part of the show. So, thanks, man.

Rick: Oh, you’re welcome. It’s a pleasure.

John: Everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Rick playing his trombone or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.