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Welcome to Episode 365 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

I’m so excited to let everyone know that my book is out. You can go to whatsyourand.com for all the details or links to Amazon, Indigo, Book Depository, Barnes and Noble, a few other websites. It’s just really cool to see how much people are reading it and changing their work cultures where they work because of it. The Amazon reviews are just so kind. Thank you so much for that. If you’ve read it and can drop a review, that would be super cool, too.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Chip Schweiger. He’s an audit partner at PKF Texas in Houston. He’s a full-time accountant, part-time cowboy, and now he’s with me here today. Chip, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Chip: Absolutely, John. Glad to be here. Looking forward to it.

John: Oh, man, I’m so excited for this. I can’t even tell you how excited I am. We have 17 rapid-fire questions first, to get to know Chip right out of the gate here.

Chip: Mac for home, PC for work.

John: Okay. All right. Good for you. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Chip: Vanilla, no question about it. Yeah. Is there any other, other than vanilla?

John: Right? That’s always the base at least, so there you go. All right. How about a favorite season?

Chip: I like fall. I like college football. I like the leaves changing. I like all of that, and it gets close to the Holidays, so, fall is — I call it autumn, but that sounds fancier.

Chip: Yeah, exactly. Autumn, man. That’s my favorite as well, for a lot of the same reasons. How about balance sheet or income statement?

Chip: Income statement, baby. Let’s make some money.

John: There you go. There you go. How about, oceans or mountains?

Chip: Mountains.

John: Mountains. Nice. All right, how about a favorite sports team?

Chip: I went to the University of Southern California, which is a small school in LA. They are the one that I have to root for. No matter what happens, I’ve got to root for SC, but I also live in Houston. I’ve kind of become a Texan fan. I’m kind of between there or somewhere in between there.

John: No, that works. Absolutely, that works, totally, and we’ll still be friends for the next 20 minutes.

Chip: If you say so.

John: There you go. There you go. How about a favorite number?

Chip: 34.

John: Is there a reason?

Chip: That’s my football number.

John: Okay.

Chip: Yeah. It was my football number. I wanted 35 when I started in Pop Warner football. Some other big bruiser guy had 35. I was a scrawny kid. I begged for 35. He just looked at me like it’s not going to happen. I begged the coaches. They said not going to happen. I said, “Well, what do you have close?” They said, “Well, we’ve got 34 here. Nobody wants that number.” I said, “All right, I’ll take it.”

John: There you go, and then Walter Payton.

Chip: Yeah, and then a bunch of famous people followed after me.

John: Yeah. Right? I asked Walter why did he pick 34? He’s like, because Chip Schweiger, Pop Warner jersey. There you go. That’s awesome. That’s a great story, though. How about books, Kindle, real book or audio book?

Chip: Real book, although I’m not the biggest book reader. In my household, my bride is a huge book reader. In fact, she prefers real books as well. She will read a novel, get on the airplane. We’re going to fly someplace, she’ll start the book, doesn’t talk to me the entire time, grunts when she wants to drink, finishes the entire book by the time we land.

John: That’s amazing.

Chip: Oh, it’s incredible.

John: How about, Star Wars or Star Trek?

Chip: Star Wars. I actually just had a binge session with Star Wars, and we were trying to figure out, what order are you supposed to watch those in?

John: Right?

Chip: They let them out. They did all the different ones, and it’s like, no, you’ve got to go back one. You’ve got to come forward a couple. Luke Skywalker is old and then he’s a young guy. It’s kind of creepy but, yeah, Star Wars.

John: It keeps bouncing around. It’s like a Tarantino mix of just bouncing around. Where were we now? I don’t even know.

Chip: Exactly. I like the way you said that. I’ve got to remember that.

John: There you go. There you go. How about puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

Chip: Crossword because Sudoku, I deal with numbers all the time in our business, as you know. Numbers are just not that much fun for something relaxing, so the word is where I’m at.

John: Yeah, yeah. It’s too close to work. Absolutely. How about, if you had to choose, rain or snow?

Chip: Oh, is there a third option to this one?

John: Sure, you can say neither.

Chip: Rain is okay, but we get a lot of it where I live. We live down on the coast of Texas, and you get a lot of rain. They pop up. Right now, we’ve been having a lot of rain and so I’m not the biggest on rain. I probably like some snow, but you put me in some snow and probably I’d complain about that too.

John: Right. Well, snow, it probably means you’re on vacation then because it’s not at home.

Chip: Yeah, true. True.

John: There you go. Yeah, I hate rain. I hate rain so much. It just ruins everything. Rain at night when no one’s outside, and then grass is green. Everything’s good. I’m such a baby on that. It’s hilarious. How about a favorite color?

Chip: I’d probably say orange, but safety orange. There’s a color called safety orange. This is a real deal. Right now, John’s thinking, man, what is going on here?

John: It’s bright hunter orange, no?

Chip: Yeah, it’s a little bit of — I don’t know what that color code is, but it’s a little bit of red. It’s a little bit of orange. The Coast Guard uses it. I just think it’s an orange color that I like.

John: Okay. Yeah, not Tennessee football orange.

Chip: Exactly.

John: Exactly, all right. Okay. All right.

Chip: No disrespect to Tennessee Volunteers but, yeah, it’s not that orange.

John: Total disrespect coming from me.

Chip: John Garrett, that’s with a G-A-R-R.

John: Right. I went to a game, a Notre Dame-Tennessee game in Knoxville, and I wore a bright green Kelly sweater. The lady next to me, in total head-to-toe Tennessee orange says, “Wow, that sweater’s a little obnoxious, don’t you think?” I was like, what?

Chip: Wow.

John: It was the funniest thing ever. I was like, I wish I could have recorded what just happened.

Chip: Thank you, ma’am, and you just moved on. Right?

John: Yeah, pretty much, like, yeah, whatever. How about a least favorite color?

Chip: You know what? I’m not the biggest fan of pink.

John: Okay.

John: I read someplace, and you’ll appreciate this maybe as a college football fan. I don’t remember the university. We’ll call it Michigan State, that they painted their locker room pink.

John: Yeah, the visiting locker room.

Chip: The visiting locker room, and everything was pink in there because it just kind of made people docile and calm. I’ve always remembered that. Every time I look at pink, I’m like, that’s just makes me sleepy.

John: Yeah, yeah. Right? There you go. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Chip: Oh, just the one, huh?

John: Oh, okay.

Chip: No, I’m completely kidding. A bourbon is what I usually drink. I’ve also been drinking, and this is not a plug, but Ranch Water has become popular in Texas, Southwestern United States. They’re starting to can it, so I’ve been drinking canned Ranch Water, which is pretty cool.

John: Yeah, that is cool. All right, we’ve got three more. Do you have a favorite actor or actress?

Chip: I like Denzel Washington.

John: Oh, yeah.

Chip: I’ve seen every one of his movies. None of them are the same character. Everyone is believable. You can watch him as a Navy captain and then the next movie, he’s a corrupt cop. I think his acting ability is just phenomenal.

John: Yeah, and he’s just a good person, which is also a bonus as well. All right, would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

Chip: Night owl.

John: Night owl, okay.

Chip: If I’m left to my own devices, I’ll get up about the crack at 10.

John: There you go. There you go, Pacific Time.

Chip: Pacific Time, yeah. I get my stuff in, get my workout in and then get after it, but I don’t mind being up. People who work with me know, sometimes, I get emails at 2 am. What is this guy doing? I’m just getting ready to go to bed.

John: I’m just up. Yeah, yeah.

Chip: Yeah, I’m just up.

John: The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Chip: Oh, you know what? I’m so fortunate to have, gosh, so many great things. Every time somebody talks about the thing that you have that you’re most fond of, I reflect on my horse, and I reflect on how amazing she is and how she’s gotten my butt out of a couple of really tricky situations. I don’t really think that I own her. On paper, I owner her, but it’s more of a partnership.

John: Yeah, yeah.

Chip: So, I don’t know. Maybe my other favorite thing I own is my iPhone.

John: Sure. Right. Okay.

Chip: Connect to the world and get work done and post pictures and all that stuff.

John: Yeah. What’s the name of your horse?

Chip: Her registered name is MAM Misty Blue. She’s a registered Quarter Horse. I call her whiskey.

John: Okay.

Chip: There’s a story there, which all of my friends, a lot of them who are real cowboys, working cowboys who have been very generous with their time and sort of let me into their world, they said never name a horse whiskey. Whatever you do, never name a mare, whiskey, because you’re just asking for trouble.

John: And then you did.

Chip: And then I did, yeah.

John: Right? Has it been trouble?

Chip: She’s tried to throw me off. If I’m not respectful, she’ll try to throw me off a couple of times, and she’s tried that a couple of times. She’s succeeded once or twice, but we have a good partnership. As long as I ask nicely, she’ll generally give me what I want.

John: There you go. There you go. That’s fantastic, which goes right into your “and” of being a cowboy, which is so cool. I saw it on social media. I read the article as well. A bit ago, we had been trading messages for a little bit. How did you get started on that? Because you can’t just, one day, us, city slickers, where you just rollover out of bed, and you’re like, yeah, I’m a cowboy now, type of thing.

Chip: It’s funny. I say I’m a part-time cowboy. The people that I respect the most in this world are actually working cowboys that work out on ranches that have been doing it for hundreds of yours. They’re amazing people. They’re honest. They have grit. They have integrity. They have a work ethic that’s beyond belief. I, a bunch of years ago, said, I really emulate these guys. I’m too old to take that up as a profession, but I can certainly do my part in terms of spreading the word about the western way of life, about Western Heritage and about the American working cowboy.

I started to do that when we were growing up in Southern California. My dad had a friend from SC where I went to school and where he went to school, that had horses up in the hills above LA. We would go up there all the time. Hey, can we ride your horses? Can we ride your horses? We ponied around on them. That was a ton of years ago. Since then, my life has been, on and off, riding horses. Sometimes I would ride them a lot. Sometimes work got in the way and so I may not ride for six months. About four years ago, I just decided that this was going to be my hobby. I got into it more seriously, bought my horse, and it’s been great ever since then.

John: That’s really cool. Just curious, when life gets in the way, work gets in the way, that six months when you’re not riding; are you different than when you are able to ride?

Chip: Yeah, it’s interesting because there are times — and we work in a stressful business. You have client demands, and you want to get things right. You want to do a good job. We take great pride in our work. Sometimes that stress will get to you. For me, it’s important to have an outlet. The outlet is, when you get on a horse that’s 1100 pounds that has their own idea about how things should go, if you’re not focused on everything between the two ears of that horse, you’re probably going to find yourself in the dirt looking up with the horse looking over you. So, it really helps to center me, at least for me, really helps to center me, especially when I get a little bit spun up about stuff.

John: I totally agree, and especially something like that, how you described it, where you’re 100% engaged when you’re riding and when you’re out there doing that, versus, at work, it’s easy. Sometimes it wanders, sometimes not, whatever, but it’s such a release and an escape. It’s really crucial for people to have that, especially after the 2020 that we all had, to really have something that’s outside of work to have that release.

Chip: Well, it’s interesting. I encourage people at our firm, I encourage friends to have some release. I love how you said it, John. If it’s not riding horses, if it’s yoga, if it’s running, some people, whatever it is, do something outside of your work life to make you a rich, full person, and have that release. Because when I get off my horse, if I’ve had a tough day at work and sometimes because of work, I ride late at night. When I get off that horse and put her up and put the saddle up and come home; then I find that I’m more focused on whatever work issues that I had before I went to the barn. It’s a pretty cool thing.

John: That’s so fantastic. Yeah, because the stereotype is more work. What are you doing with free time? Why aren’t you doing more work? It’s just encouraging to hear that it’s, no, no, step away from the work because then when you come back, you’re actually more focused. It’s not just a make-believe theory thing. It’s true. You’ve experienced it.

Chip: That’s a big part of our culture is, I have people that work hard, I call it work hard, play hard, but work hard and then also get away. We love people doing stuff outside of work. We love people having a life outside of work because it just makes them better at work, makes them better for our clients, and ultimately, makes them happier people.

John: I completely agree. I wrote a book on it. No, totally, that’s, yeah.

Chip: Yeah, I shouldn’t be lecturing you about it because you get it.

John: No, it’s everybody listening, though, because they could hear from me, but who is this guy? You’re a partner at a huge firm in Texas, so it’s like, this is legit. It’s not case study bubble world. It’s for real. So, no, I appreciate it because it’s just encouraging to hear that it’s real, and it makes a difference. Do you feel like any of your cowboy experience translates to the office at all?

Chip: I do. It’s interesting. The work — and I’ve been fortunate, as I said, to have friends who are real working cowboys who have let me tag along and work cows with them and be polite when I did something wrong.

John: Right.

Chip: I need you to get over to that gate. I need you to get over that gate right now. Actually, I need you to be over at that gate three seconds ago. Then we drink a beer afterwards and we talk about it. I tell them how thoughtful and thankful I am about the experience. Can I get an invite back? They usually say no. What it teaches you about riding a horse and about working in agriculture, at least for me, is that, you know what? Everyone’s trying hard. Everyone’s trying to do the best they can. Really, just be a little bit patient.

What these folks have done for me is allowed me to make mistakes and said, it’s okay to make mistakes. One thing that I’ve tried to take back in my professional life is telling people and telling myself, it’s okay to make honest mistakes. Don’t make a bunch of them, don’t make the same mistake over and over, but it’s okay to make honest mistakes because that’s how we learn. That’s how we grow.

John: I love that. It’s so great because, especially in the accounting profession, like engineers and law and these professions where you have degrees on top of degrees and certifications and all that, we build ourselves up to be like we’re supposed to be perfect. We’re just not. We’re human. You’re not making mistakes on purpose, but sometimes it’s going to happen. It’s just having some grace there and that forgiveness. So it’s cool to see that you’ve experienced the back end of that, on the ranch, and when you feel that forgiveness, it’s like, wow, that’s really powerful. Then you’re able to bring that to the office. That’s super cool. I feel like if I had started under you, I might still accidentally be in accounting.

Chip: Accidentally?

John: Right? Well, I don’t know. Maybe. It was a mutually agreed upon decision between me and the profession, but it is cool. Clearly, this is something that you talk about at work. I know that some people, it’s hard for them to know how to bring that up, or how do they discuss this. Can you just talk through a little bit of that, of how did it — did it come up? Or is it just normal? I’m just talking about what I did over the weekend or whatever.

Chip: Yeah. I write a blog. A shameless plug, I write a blog about the western way of life.

John: Yeah, what’s the website for that?

Chip: It’s cowboyaccountant.com.

John: Exactly. There we go. Everybody listening, go to that. Yeah.

Chip: So, some people at work started to read it and would ask me about it and see articles. I share the articles to my professional LinkedIn page. It was really cool to see the people that would come up to me and say, “Hey, I read your blog article.” I would say, “That’s great. Remind me of your name again.” Just to hear them talk about what they got out of it, makes you, boy, I tell you what, made me feel so good. A lot of those folks are at work.

I don’t talk about it a lot at work, but on Fridays, I may come in, in jeans and boots. If I was fortunate enough to win a buckle, doing something, I may wear that buckle and get a couple of questions about it. A lot of times what I’ll do is, in talking with my partners, we talk about horsemanship and training horses. Training horses, in my mind, is really not training the horse. It’s really training the human. We talk about the crossover between horsemanship and humanship.

John: Yeah. Wow, that’s super powerful.

Chip: We just got really deep there, didn’t we?

John: Yeah, we did. I love it, man. That’s so great. You can’t also just drop winning a buckle out of nowhere, so we’ve got to back up a little bit. What’s that all about, and what have you won a buckle for?

Chip: Oh, well, I use my horse for just general cow horse work. She’s a ranch horse. That’s her bloodline, but we also do cow horse work. There are cow horse competitions where you try to keep a cow at one end, try to get the cow where you want it to go.

John: Okay.

Chip: I do ranch patterns with her. We basically ride around in a pattern that the AQHA says, okay, you’ve got to go do this. Do a circle. Do a spin. So, had a little bit of success there.

John: That’s cool, man. That’s super fun. Yeah, because my wife and I watched Yellowstone, the show. I don’t know if you’ve seen it.

Chip: Great show.

John: Oh, it is good. Okay, I thought it was going to be one of those where it’s like, that’s not even close. No, but it’s really cool. The young kid wins the full riding contest on accident, literally on accident. It’s a great show, though. That’s a really cool show.

Chip: It’s interesting because everything that happens in rodeo comes off of the working ranch, right? If you’ve got to go rope a steer, that was usually to rope the steer so that you could doctor him or so that you can move him into a different pen. If you’re going to ride a bucking horse, it’s because you needed — back in the day, they broke horses by basically breaking their will by riding them until they quit bucking. The only event in rodeo that, in my way of thinking and in my research, doesn’t come off of the working ranch is riding a bull.

John: Right.

Chip: Right. Some cowboy, at one point, said, “Hey, y’all hold my beer. Watch this.”

John: Exactly. It’s like, that guy’s crazy, and then like, I’ll do it. I’ll do it longer. No, that’s fine.

Chip: I don’t worry about the first guy that ever rode a bull. I worry about the second guy.

John: That’s a great question. It’s the same thing I say about the tax person is like — no, no, I’m just kidding.

Chip: No, that’s exactly right. Just kidding, not kidding.

John: Right. Exactly, exactly. That’s super cool to hear, how much the outside of work impacts the at work, not just from you talking to partners about the horsemanship and humanship type stuff, but also getting to know other people that read your blog and say, “Hey, that was really cool. This is what I got out of it.” Now you know people on a first name basis and have some connections. It also humanizes you, which I think is very powerful because when you’re a partner, there’s a lot of people that are intimidated by that title.

Chip: Yeah, it’s true, and I’ve always — I’m probably one of the people that I believe has the least comfort with pretenses. I’m just not a pretentious guy, but when you’re a partner in a firm, and you come in a suit and a tie, and you come into a meeting; people just naturally get concerned about that. So I always try to find a way to, if I can, to let them know, it’s going to be okay. Nobody’s going to have anything bad happen here today. We’re actually going to get along. As long as we serve our clients and keep ourselves happy and do the right things, then we’re going to be fine.

John: There are some learning moments and some teaching moments, but we’re all good. We’re all good.

Chip: Yeah.

John: That’s super awesome. How much is it on the organization to create that safe space for people to share their hobbies and passions? Or how much is it on the individual to just kind of start the circle themselves from the bottom, if you will?

Chip: Yeah, it’s interesting, great question, because I believe every relationship is mutually beneficial but also mutually vulnerable. That’s the relationship that we have with our spouses. It’s the relationship we have with our employers. The benefit is that there’s a place to work, that there’s a means to make an income for your family, and to make a life, but there’s also a vulnerability. Sometimes I think we need to make sure that we keep that relationship between benefit and vulnerability in check. It’s okay to be vulnerable at work, especially if you’re anywhere in the organization. It’s okay to be vulnerable.

I wish in corporate America, that we would talk about it more. We talk about the people. Maybe through the pandemic and maybe with working from home, we’ve learned a lot about each other. I think that we’ve gotten a lot closer because we’re all collectively in this thing. So, I’m hopeful and positive and optimistic for the future that we get even further than we are right now.

John: I agree. We’ve all been in each other’s homes on these video calls with coworkers that, before, you would put on your best front or whatever, the facade of how my life is all together. I’m super professional person. Then when we’re working from home and doing these video calls, and the dog’s barking because there’s a delivery, the kids can get into their home school, all things are crazy; it’s like, we’re human. I think that the Band-Aid was ripped off, and what’s your “and” became even more prevalent. I agree, I hope it stays, and we pick it up and run it even further.

Chip: Yeah, we’ve really — I mean, I think in our firm, we try to do a lot of stuff with our teams. Technology has made that very helpful and easy to do. When we get together as a group, it’s amazing that we still crave the personal interaction with each other. I like how you said it. We’re all wearing T-shirts, and cats are running across the back of the screen. It gives us an opportunity to ask each other, hey, what’s your cat’s name? What’s your T-shirt? Where did you get it? Tell me the story behind it. That’s pretty cool. That’s one of the blessings about this pretty rugged thing that’s happened to all of us.

John: Yeah, totally. Yeah, that’s really the good thing that’s come out of it. I agree totally. Do you have any words of encouragement to anybody listening who has a hobby outside of work that they feel like, no one’s going to care because it has nothing to do with my job?

Chip: We talked about it before. I believe everyone would benefit from having a hobby or hobbies. I believe everyone would benefit by putting 100% of their effort into whatever that is, and it really, in my way of thinking, doesn’t matter what it is. It can be, you can think, boy, this is the goofiest hobby, and nobody’s going to want to hear about it. You know what? You’re doing it for yourself, and you’re doing it to make you a better person. So, I’d encourage everybody, just do it.

I come to work most days in a suit and a tie or a sports coat, and I go home. Whenever I get home, I change into boots and a dirty shirt and a jacket that I probably wore the day before, and a hat that is, well, my wife wishes I would get rid of it, but it’s my favorite hat, so I can’t. It’s just nice to have the two sides of an individual. I’d encourage everybody, it’s okay to have your two sides. It’s okay to have your your hobby life and your work life. Actually what both of them do, and this is why I’m so appreciative of what you’re doing, John, what both of them do is make you better at the other thing.

John: Nice. Yeah, I agree totally. That’s what’s been really cool about the research of interviewing so many people is, at first, it started out as, well, these people have a hobby. Then it became, wow, all of these hobbies impact their careers. At the very least, it humanizes you to other people around you but in a little bit of vulnerability, but a lot of times, there are technical skills and a way of thinking and a ruggedness or an inner fortitude that comes from these different things. You look through a different lens, or you have a creative side of you, and both sides make both sides better. I appreciate you saying that. That’s so awesome to hear.

Chip: I think people, when you’re dealing with a hobby, and you run into a roadblock, and you care about it; you find a way around the issue. You find a way through it because it’s just you and your hobby. It’s just you and yoga. It’s just you and running. If you want to run a marathon and you’re getting tired, you’re going to figure out a way to keep training to be able to run that marathon. Then when we get to work, we get a problem, and we sometimes seize up. There’s a great lesson there in, well, what did you do to conquer that problem that you had in your hobby, and translate that same behavior into conquering the problem at work.

John: Yeah, and there’s a confidence to be found there as well.

Chip: Yeah, 100% agree.

John: That’s so awesome to hear, man, so awesome to hear. Well, before I wrap this up, though, it’s only fair that I turn the tables and allow you to question me. We’ll make this the first episode of the Chip Schweiger podcast or the Cowboy Accountant podcast, whatever. I would never be a guest on that one, so let me get the Chip Schweiger podcast.

Chip: I happen to have a few questions, so we’ll get to them right now. Let me do speed round, if that’s okay with you.

John: Totally. Totally.

Chip: So, turnabout is fair play. Favorite color.

John: Blue.

Chip: Why?

John: It’s just always been blue. I don’t know why. It’s always been blue, and it’s never red. It’s always been blue.

Chip: Cool, cool. Favorite holiday movie.

John: Oh, wow, that’s a good one. Holiday movie. Yeah, probably — I mean Home Alone is so good, and it’s so funny. It’s great because my nephews are six and eight, and they are cracking up at all the juvenile humor that I am also still cracking up at. It’s great.

Chip: Love it. Movie’s 30 years old, somebody told me.

John: Oh, totally. It’s insane. Yeah, Macaulay Culkin is way old now. I feel like my middle nephew is, once he saw that movie, it unlocked a new dimension of his brain that is not good. Holy Molly, yeah, it’s all the booby traps and the shenanigans and all this. Yeah, it’s pretty awesome to see because I’m not his dad, so it’s all good.

Chip: I love it. Exactly. Yeah, you can wind him up and then just kind of walk away and enjoy the show.

John: I’m cool Uncle John.

Chip: You are cool Uncle john.

John: There you go, and then turn it back.

Chip: Okay, one last question then. At home by the fire or on a beach.

John: Oh, wow, that’s a tough one. I guess I’ll say on a beach because that means that I’m on vacation. There’s that. Although I am a bit of a homebody and at home by a fire is also good, but 51-49 on a beach, I guess.

Chip: Okay.

John: Just because it feels special, and it’s not an everyday thing. It’s something where I’ve got to — I’m not in Texas, on the coast. I have to get on an airplane for that, so that’s cool. Well, thank you so much, Chip, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? I just love having you on and so really appreciate you taking time to do this.

Chip: This was the most fun, John. I really appreciate you having me on. I had a blast.

John: Cool. Well, thanks, man. Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Chip, I’m telling you they’re legit, or connect with him on social media, his Instagram account is awesome, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there, as well to his blog, cowboyaccountant.com. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to get the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 363 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like the podcast, you can go even deeper into my research with the book. It’s available on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. Check out whatsyourand.com for all the details. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and then writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Gail Wilson. She’s the president and founder of GWA Business Solutions in Markham, Ontario, Canada, and now she’s with me here today. Gail, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Gail: Hi, John. How you doing today?

John: Doing awesome. I’m so excited to have you be a part of this. I also love concerts. You love concerts. This is going to be so much fun. I feel like I’m also the guest. We get to share all of our “ands”. This is going to be a blast.

Gail: You got it.

John: Before we get into it, I have my rapid-fire questions, get to know Gail on a new level here, right out of the gate. I’ll start you out with a pretty easy one, favorite color.

Gail: I knew you were going to ask me that, and I don’t have a favorite color. I love favorite colors, but if I had to pick just one, you know that beautiful color you see when you look out in the Caribbean Sea or whatever your fancy is, and you see this blue-green. That would have to be it.

John: Yeah, yeah, that is blue-teal, blue-green, whatever it is. Yeah, it’s so perfect. It really is. It’s interesting that the whole ocean isn’t like that. I’m sure there’s a reason. How about, okay, so least favorite color.

Gail: I love color, John. That’s a tough one. I would say a color I don’t look really good in and that most people don’t look really good in. I would say that would be like a really super bright red.

John: Okay. Yeah, I hear you. I hear you. How about, this is a fun one, shower or bath?

Gail: I like them both. You’re asking me all these questions.

John: You like all of the things.

Gail: Right? Unfortunately, there’s nothing better than having a really good shower.

John: What if you filled the bathtub through the shower head, then it’s both at the same time.

Gail: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

John: How about when it comes to puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

Gail: Crossword.

John: Okay, there we go. We’re on a roll now. Here we go. Diamonds or pearls.

Gail: Diamonds.

John: Okay. All right. Two for two. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Gail: I met Jane Seymour, and it was really fun to meet her in person.

John: That’s cool.

Gail: She was at a stage event. Of course, I didn’t have a backstage pass. Somehow I got to see her. I’m not quite sure how I finagled that, but I did.

John: Good for you. Good for you. That’s cool. Yeah, really great actress as well. Would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

Gail: Early.

John: Early. Okay, all right. How about when it comes to books, Kindle, real books or audio book?

Gail: I like a real book, but I also like Kindle.

John: Sure. No, no, I hear you. How about, since you’ve got the accounting, bookkeeping background, favorite number?

Gail: Nine.

John: None. Is there a reason?

Gail: I just always thought nines look really smooth.

John: Yeah. No, they do. You’re right. Yeah, I hear you. Okay, how about a favorite sports team?

Gail: It’s got to be the Jays.

John: Oh, okay, all right. There we go. Oceans or mountains.

Gail: Oceans, big time.

John: Because of the blue. I see what’s going on.

Gail: You got it.

John: Yeah, here we go. This is a fun one, balance sheet or income statement.

Gail: Income statement.

John: Income, okay. Somebody asked me this one at the end of an episode. It’s been fun to ask people now, is, socks or shoes.

Gail: Flip flops.

John: Okay. There we go. There we go. That’s hilarious. That’s awesome. How about, Star Wars or Star Trek?

Gail: I like them both, but I’m an original Trekkie. I was like five years old back then, even though I’m 29. You didn’t ask my age, but

John: Not at all. Not at all. You were four or five when you started watching them. Right? Three more. Your computer, PC or a Mac.

Gail: PC.

John: Okay, yeah, me too. Favorite ice cream flavor. I love ice cream.

Gail: Oh, it has got to be that one where they put the yummy vanilla and then they add all this caramel and then a little bit of chocolate chips.

John: Yeah, like a Moose Tracks almost?

Gail: Yeah.

John: There you go. Yeah, all the chunks. All right, last one, favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Gail: It’s going to be my iPad.

John: Oh, your iPad, okay. There we go.

Gail: I’m a computer person, you know?

John: No, totally. So let’s talk concerts and live music and all that. Is that something that you grew up going to? Or did you start doing it, later point in life?

Gail: My mom loved Elvis, so I grew up listening to Elvis and listening to music for my sister. She’s nine years older than me, and she always had music on. In those days, it was a while ago, you would save your allowance to buy one song.

John: Right, like a single. Yeah.

Gail: She would spend her allowance every, maybe once a month, buying an album, right? So I had Led Zeppelin playing and all this stuff as a young girl, great things to grow up with. We also had comedy, which is why I like to make people smile, which was Cheech and Chong.

John: Okay. That’s great.

Gail: This is what I was listening to. So, when I had an opportunity to go to a concert, I was about 15 and with a date. My date said, “We have an opportunity to go and see Supertramp.” Of course, Supertramp’s album was Crime of the Century, bloody well write, all these really great songs that you need to think about. So we go down to the concert, and I loved the concert. I did not need drugs. I did not need alcohol. I just needed music. When I’m stressed, I put just music on and the live music, then that’s the escape. That’s the time where I can say, I don’t have to think about any of my customers’ questions.

John: Right.

Gail: I don’t have to think about what solution do I have to come up with. I just think, how am I going to get in and enjoy this moment? Because the concert, the music, it just draws you in, the positive energy of everyone around you, because I don’t see people at concerts that are unhappy.

John: Right.

Gail: Right? When you’re at a concert, everybody’s happy, and anybody that didn’t like it is gone. So it’s a way for us to escape to a completely, 100% positive, comfortable environment.

John: Yeah, I love that. That’s so true. It’s so true. Because somebody asked me at the end of one of these episodes, sporting event or concert, which is such a hard one because I love both, but then I thought about it. I said concerts because every time I go to a concert, it’s an experience, every time. There’s the audience there. There’s the band. There’s the interaction between the two. Everyone’s singing and all that. Where at a sporting event, sometimes it’s an experience, but sometimes it’s a two-to-nothing baseball game, and whatever. I eat some nachos. I agree with you. There is that experience there, for sure.

Gail: Well, that reminds me of a story, and it’s a good one. I went to see Keith Urban a few years back. One of my state friends was in town, and he was going to the Microsoft conference. He goes, “Oh, you know — some famous person was playing there, but he couldn’t get me in. I said, “Hey, why don’t you come to the Keith Urban concert with me? My husband can’t make it, and my son is coming with me.” So the three of us go down. We go to see Keith Urban. My family knows my friend, Robert, very well. It was great. We had a really good time.

Besides the good time I had, I was sitting in the American Express lounge, having a drink. I looked over and I said, “Hey, that guy really looks like Kevin Pillar, doesn’t it?” Robert’s like, “Yeah. Yeah, it does.” The guy beside us goes, yeah, and there’s like four other members of the team. There’s smoke and all these other guys, and they’re all in this private room. This girl goes over and gets her picture taken with Kevin Pillar.

I said, hmm. I love Kevin Pillar. He’s probably our favorite. We love him. Wouldn’t it be great if I get my picture taken with him? So, sure enough, my son had gone out to get junk food because that’s what kids eat. I went over to where the bodyguards were and asked Kevin if I could get my picture taken with him. He graciously said, yes. My son walks in and says, “Figures, my mom is standing there getting her picture taken with Kevin Pillar.” It’s so obvious that I like to meet people. I’m not crazy people when I meet people. I’m just like, “Oh, hi, how are you? Can I get my picture? Thank you very much. Have a great night.”

John: Yeah, but he plays for the Jays, and he’s in Canada. He’s just happy that people recognize him because he’s not on the Leafs. Everyone knows the Leafs. That’s super awesome though that it combined the two where it’s a Blue Jays player at a concert, and you get the picture. That’s awesome.

Gail: In the middle of the concert, he was on the floors. I like to be a little further back. Some concerts, the floors, but not at the Molson Amphitheatre or Budweiser Center, whatever they call it now. Anyway, in the middle of the concert, he gives Keith Urban a Jays shirt.

John: Oh, that’s great.

Gail: Keith Urban puts it on, so that even made it better.

John: Yeah, so then the place went nuts. That’s awesome. That’s very cool. You’ve been to concerts all over the US and Canada. You’ve been to quite a few. Is there one that’s one of your more favorites that comes to mind, or more unique, I guess?

Gail: The favorite person I ever saw was at — there’s a little casino in Niagara Falls, and it seats 1500 people. Steven Tyler decided to go and play there with his country band.

John: Okay.

Gail: I got these seats, fifth row, center.

John: Wow.

Gail: It was like he was right there with you. This was different. He was probably the most charismatic performer I’ve ever seen. Maybe he normally isn’t like that, but it was just, there’s only 1500 people. I don’t know if you know a lot about him, but he has this charity called Janie’s Charity. He was performing that. It was just this song, Janie’s Got a Gun.

John: Right. Yeah.

Gail: It was just such a meaningful concert. It’s funny because people don’t think you can get that from a concert. They’ll say, oh, it’s perfect if I listened to it on my recording. Well, who cares if it’s perfect on my recording?

John: Yeah, it’s super fun when the band goes off script, or they do extra solos, or they link something out, or they tell the story behind the song, or they do a different version of it. That’s why you’re there. You can listen to it at the mp3 or whatever or on Spotify, or now just say, tell the gadget what song you want to listen to, and it plays it. Or even some people that do covers of somebody else’s song, or maybe it’s a song that they wrote that someone else made famous and so they’re, here’s my version of it. Yeah, and that’s always fun to see, where you’re like, what, that’s awesome, type of a thing. Or it’s Steven Tyler singing country music. That’s great.

Gail: I have to admit he did sing my very favorite song, Dream On, and I recorded it, of course, on my little cellphone. It was just a different experience because of him being such a great star and being in such a small environment. I remember hearing one of my friends went to see — was at the El Mocambo, which is a little club in Toronto, and famous people come, and the Rolling Stones played there. They said it was the same kind of thing. Then the Rolling Stones just came up. Wow. That’s not an opportunity you get. He’s never played in a band again that I know of.

John: Yeah, yeah.

Gail: He’s back touring with Aerosmith when tours are back on again.

John: Right. Hopefully soon, hopefully, soon. Yeah, we’re all missing live concerts, but you have been able to see some live singing even during the pandemic, which I think is so fantastic how clever people have been to make it happen. Because when we chatted before, you talked about it was like a karaoke night but because all these bands aren’t touring, the lead singers and people that are really good singers aren’t performing. You stumbled into a karaoke night, and it was like all-star night almost.

Gail: It was incredible because the last time I saw live music, a friend of mine, he owns Toronto Fashion Week for men’s and women’s fashion, and you know what’s happened to the fashion industry. It was a cool event. We ended up meeting an Olympian at this little event in town that nobody knows how to pronounce that they see how it’s spelled called Stouffville.

John: Right.

Gail: So, here are all these people that are pretty famous, coming into Stouffville to watch the Canadian Fashion Film Festival, and then we went to the same venue and saw a band. This band played at Boots and Hearts. It’s a huge country festival in Canada. Some little guy that’s in his basement, and they said, this is the first time we’ve played since COVID hit. It was August.

John: Yeah. Wow, that’s crazy. Then you told me about how one had the clear shower curtain liners around the singers so then it could keep the COVID in, I guess. I don’t know.

Gail: Yeah, that’s a great story, John. Thanks for reminding me of that. We were driving along, and we thought, hmm, there’s a cute little place right on the water. Let’s stop in there. There’s a little pub and great. It was the whole nine yards, so we went in there. I said to my husband, “That sounds like live music. That does not sound like an album.”

John: Right. Let’s go. Find it. Find it.

Gail: We get in there. We got this amazing table. Here’s this shower curtain up inside, not just one. There are two shower curtains with a shower curtain in between, so, picture that. It’s like a crossword puzzle. You have two little boxes, and the shower curtains are all around it. The guy doing the karaoke, manning it, he’s on one side. He’s sitting there sterilizing everything, two microphones, and everybody has to have a microphone cap on, and he’s pointing the sterilized microphone through the little partition there between the two shower curtains so that — and these people could sing. I was just saying to my husband, “I don’t care if it’s even really bad music. I just want to hear live music.”

John: Yeah, yeah.

Gail: This guy that was up there, I was floored. I said, that person must be a professional. The next person one got up. She was just as good. The next person — the whole night had to be all professionals.

John: Yeah, because they’re not touring and they’re not performing anywhere. Instead, they’re in a shower curtain cube at a bar in the middle of nowhere, just working out their chops. Yeah, and I love that. That’s so great. I feel like that should be a movie with Will Ferrell in it or something, where it’s just pandemic karaoke, or I don’t even know. Even with all this, you’re still able to get some live music and even listen to the music as well. I loved how you said that earlier, where just listening to music is that escape from work and that stress relief. You’re not always thinking about work. When the music comes on, you’re able to take a break. How important do you think it is for people to have something to take that break?

Gail: It’s so true, John. There’s stress. Doesn’t matter what comes in your life. You could have death in your family. You can have whatever in your family. You can imagine, what do you think was playing at my mother’s funeral?

John: Oh, well, not a Cheech and Chong bit, I’m sure. Right?

Gail: Elvis.

John: Yeah, Elvis, like you said, yeah, yeah.

Gail: We played Elvis at my mother’s funeral because that’s what my mother brought us up doing. She was a happy person, full of life, lots of fun, and funerals are a very solemn time. My father didn’t want to go. We put a little bit of — it wasn’t like we’re dancing or anything in the funeral parlor. Don’t get me wrong.

John: Yeah, yeah. You were celebrating.

Gail: Yeah. So, you know what? At the end, my dad was like, “Am I ever glad you talked me into coming to this funeral.”

John: Right. Yeah, no matter what’s going on, even if you’re having a bad day or something didn’t go your way, a client didn’t choose you, you didn’t get the promotion, whatever it is, there’s all ranges of bad things. Then, yeah, given the pandemic, I’m homeschooling my kids, my spouse got laid off, whatever it is, there’s all kinds of crazy happening. It’s so crucial that you keep that “and”. You have that outside-of-work hobby and passion, whether you can actually do it, like going to concerts, not as much, but listening to the music, you can, and stumbling across that karaoke night. It’s almost like an oasis in the middle of the desert. It’s so crucial to have those. I agree with you, totally.

Gail: Right. I’m visiting Florida right now, and things are very much safe here. They still have live music outside. The other day, I listened to a steel drum band guy. He goes, “I was lucky. I gave up on cruise ships in January before all this hit, so we had gigs lined up.” Then Tommy, I sent you a picture of me with Tommy.

John: Whatsyourand.com, yeah, yeah.

Gail: Yeah, and seeing Tommy for many, many years. Tommy Treadway, he is just one guy, and he goes around and sings. Sometimes he sings with a band as well. I had a lot of fun the other night, and there was nobody there, by the way. There was art table and then about 35 feet away, there was another table, but it was all outside. It was at a restaurant where people were coming and going and picking up the food. It was just something the restaurant area of the resort wanted to have something fun for people to listen to while they were waiting for their pizza.

John: Yeah. Do you find yourself talking with, like when you’re at a conference, with people about their “and” or maybe music in general or clients as well?

Gail: Yes. Especially since I’ve met you, John, I’ve been telling everyone that I’m going to be on this podcast. They told me what their “and” is, and really a great insight into who people are because everybody wants to tell you their “and”.

John: Right?

Gail: I also said I like deep-sea fishing because I do. I love to go fishing, but concerts are really what I do the most of.

John: What really lights you up. Yeah, and you can have more than one. You don’t have to have just one. That’s so awesome to hear that you share that and then people are like, well, here’s mine. It’s like, wow, that’s awesome. It sounds like more people can be on the show, so that’s even better. That’s just cool to hear that you’re not hiding it, and no one cares, that has nothing to do with my business, whatever. It’s, no, no, share it. Why not? Because people like to hear that as well.

Gail: Well, we have to get educated all the time. When you go to a conference, everyone thinks, oh, you’re at a conference. It’s going to be so easy. You’ve got to be staying in a hotel room. All your meals are cooked. You’re looking at them. Are you kidding me? Breakfast at seven, and I might get home by 11, if I’m lucky, and then crash and have one of those showers we talked about at the beginning.

John: Yeah, yeah. Right.

Gail: Then pick yourself up and then we go from there, right.

John: Your brain is full. That’s for sure, yeah, and then meeting new people and all that stuff. That’s for sure. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that thinks, my hobby has nothing to do with my job, no one’s going to care about it?

Gail: I would disagree, 100%. I remember one time I was dancing around the office. We were having something going on. Everybody said, wow, I didn’t know you liked dancing so much. I thought, how could you have worked for me and not know that? So we started talking more about our hobbies, and everybody got to know each other a lot better. I think it really helped the organization.

John: Yeah, I agree, obviously, 100%. It’s cool to hear that it’s not just theory, make-believe. It’s legit real, and it worked. That’s cool. This has been a blast. It’s so much fun. We could talk music all day, for sure, but it’s only fair that, before I wrap it up, I turn the tables and allow you to question me. So, welcome to the first episode of The Gail Wilson Podcast. I don’t know. I tried to make it feel like it’s at a concert. Thanks so much for having me on, Gail. If you have any questions, or I’m happy to be your guest.

Gail: Well, John, welcome and thank you. You know what, I had to do a little prep work for this. I found out you have a punch line. I have a punch line. It’s really boring. Solutions that fit. Yours is much more fun than mine. It is. I really do, I love it because it’s true. Your punch line about getting serious results doesn’t have to be that serious. It’s true.

John: Yeah. Well, thank you.

Gail: Because I’ve met you at conferences, and it’s really important to have people get a little bit of lightness in their feeling because what we do is open heart surgery. It’s very serious work that we do in this field, and we have to really get to know all of the people’s ugly parts, right? Many people, they all say, everything’s great. Here’s my question for you. Everybody’s telling me how great everything is when, why are you calling me in then?

John: Yeah.

Gail: How about you, when you meet people, what do they say to you? Do you have to convince them that comedy is good? Or do they already know, you know what, our conference is a little dry, can you lighten it up a bit?

John: Oh, so when it comes to speaking at conferences, yeah. Sometimes people are nervous because they hear the word funny. They think that it’s not going to have any value or have any substance to it. Because oftentimes, speakers, if they’re funny and engaging, there’s not a lot of substance to it. It’s like cotton candy, where it looks big and it’s going to fill you up. Then you eat it and then two minutes later, you’re hungry again. Or they have a lot of content, but they’re really boring, and you don’t end up listening to any of it because you’re falling asleep.

The greatest compliment I’ve gotten is that I’m really, really good at combining the two, which is, I think, the way it should be. If people aren’t listening, then they’re not learning. If they’re laughing, then I know that they’re listening because you’re not going to laugh at a joke if you didn’t hear it. So, bringing a little bit of humor, a little personality to it.

Not everybody’s on board right away because it’s definitely different. It’s different than what’s been done. The cool thing is, is that there are a lot of meeting professionals out there that are feeling the pressure to do something different. That’s when they turn to me and then they realize, oh, wait, it’s actually about 90% substance and the meat, and about 10% is the funny that’s just sprinkled throughout so then you feel better about it.

That’s definitely something that I’ve had to overcome at times in conversation is, that it’s not just funny. It’s not a clown show. It’s funny for a reason. It’s the same with work. People that are in an office, it doesn’t have to be all serious all the time. It can be funny. There can be stories. You can be dancing, like you said, and still get your work done. If anything, I think you get your work done better if you’re dancing.

Gail: Well, I’ve studied a little bit about how to relieve your stress. I do some meditation and different things that I do. One of the things is actually from a Taylor Swift song that you’re supposed to do. Shake it up.

John: Okay, okay. Right?

Gail: It really, it’s a stress reliever. I always say people need to go to a lot of concerts, and they’re not on drugs, like me.

John: Right, exactly. I’m the same. I’m the same.

Gail: Even though it really does shake off that stress.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so cool. Well, Gail, I really appreciate you being a part of What’s Your “And”? It’s been so fun talking concerts and getting to know you more. Thank you so much.

Gail: Oh, thank you, John, for having me on. It was lots of fun.

John Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Gail at these concerts or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to get the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 362 of What’s Your “And”? Follow-Up Friday Edition. This is John Garrett, and each Friday, I follow up with a guest who had been on the show a few years ago to hear what’s new with their passions outside of work and also hear how this message might have impacted them since we last talked.

I’m so excited. My book is out. You can order it on Amazon, Indigo, barnesandnoble.com, a few other websites. Check out whatsyourand.com for more. Thank you so much to everyone who’s read it so far and been kind enough to leave those Amazon reviews. It’s really, really overwhelming to see the impact that it’s making. For those who have been asking, fans of the podcast, the audio version is coming very soon. You can have me read you the book, if that’s what you want.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this Follow-Up Friday is no different with my guest, Twyla Verhelst. She’s the head of Accountant Channel, as well as the program leader for FreshBooks, and now she’s with me here today. Twyla, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Twyla: John, I am so excited to be back chatting with you. Thanks for having me.

John: Oh, for sure. This is going to be awesome. I mean, Episode 196, that was only a couple of years ago or so, and a lot has changed. Yeah, I’m excited to catch up, for sure.

Twyla: Yeah, me too. Thanks.

John: Oh, totally. I have my rapid-fire questions, things I didn’t ask the first time, probably should have. Here we go. If you had to choose, Harry Potter or Game of Thrones.

Twyla: Neither?

John: Neither. That’s an answer. That’s fair enough, fair enough.

Twyla: I haven’t read either. I haven’t been into either series. So, I guess that’s my answer, neither.

John: No, no, fair enough. Fair enough. How about this one, talk or text?

Twyla: Text. Oh, gosh, text. Please text me first, then we’ll decide if we should talk.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so awesome. Here’s a good one, summer, winter, spring or fall.

Twyla: Oh, summer all the way.

John: Summer.

Twyla: I like the warmth. Yeah.

John: There you go. When you travel, planes, trains or automobiles?

Twyla: Absolutely planes because I live in Canada so if I want to get to that warm weather, that usually means getting on a plane, unless we’re going somewhere in July and August.

John: Right. That’s awesome. Very good. With my audio book coming out in a couple of months, audio version, Kindle or real book.

Twyla: I love a real book. I love the look, the feel, the smell. I love all that, but when you’re trying to balance a lot of things like we are this year, I’m going to go with the audio.

John: All right. Oh, this one’s tricky, rain or snow.

Twyla: I won’t use the answer neither again because I want to say neither.

John: No, neither is not allowed.

Twyla: I will say snow just because you can do things in the snow versus in the rain.

John: Yes. I hate rain so much. I hate rain. I can’t even tell you how much, and I always have. It ruins everything. There’s nothing fun in the rain. I know somebody right now is tweeting at me, I love rain. Well, good for you. Soak it up, literally, pun intended. No, I agree. The last one, toilet paper roll, over or under.

Twyla: Over, totally over.

John: Yeah, totally.

Twyla: It’s not even a question, John. You could stop asking that one.

John: I guess the cat people are under. I don’t know. I learned that after asking so many people, random strangers on the sidewalk, for the podcast. Yeah, but Episode 196, we talked running and marathon running with a bib on your shirt pinned on. There are pictures and all that. Is running still a thing for you?

Twyla: You know what, I’ve got a really interesting segment here first to chat about, with running. Because running is still a passion of mine, for sure, but 2020 really has been interesting because although running itself wasn’t canceled, races were canceled. I quickly learned how racing is an important part of my running. Now, just to lay the foundation here, I am not fast. It’s not like I am this super competitive, uber fast runner, but I do enjoy the challenge and the training of a race.

So, what happened was, I started out in January, keen on my goals for 2020, started training for my next marathon in May, and of course it was canceled. When it was canceled, I found myself in a spot of, alright, I’ve already started training. What do I do? Do I just keep going? With juggling life and juggling a kid at home and remote working and activities canceled, I found training and running a lot. I just found it to be that I wasn’t super motivated because I didn’t know when my next race would be.

I caught myself in this really interesting spot of, alright, so running itself isn’t canceled, but in my mind running was canceled. Now what do I do? What do I do to still pull in the things that I was trying to get from running, but doing something else? Usually my go-to would be, okay, I’ll go to hot yoga. Hot yoga classes are canceled. My next go-to would be, I’m going to travel. I’m going to get on that plane. I’m going to travel. Traveling was canceled. I kept going through all these different things to figure out what is it that I’m going to do.

I got really exploratory with things that were more local but that were more what I needed in a time of a global pandemic when life is just challenging. Because one of the things I love about a race and training for a race is the challenge. I like the mental challenge that’s required in order to train for and finish your race. When I say mental, some people would say, what are you talking about? It’s physical. You have to run. It’s your body. I find that, because I’m not an elite runner, really running is me versus me. Running is you versus you when you’re out for a run, and then you’re wanting to train for something.

What I love about that is that it’s you who set the expectation of training and then running and finishing. There’s nobody at the finish line to say, you have to get here. It’s not a team sport. There’s nobody that’s like, pass me the ball, or I need you to do this, so I can do this. It’s just not like that. Nobody cares if you stop your training or didn’t put in your effort. Nobody cares if you literally pull out partway through a race. It’s this mental fortitude that you develop in running that is like this challenge of getting through something even though there’s nobody counting on you to get to the end of it. I just find it’s this different skill set.

I found though, in 2020, when life was challenging enough, it’s like, I don’t need that right now. Because races started to go virtual and I could have gotten myself motivated for something like that, but it just wasn’t it for me.

John: How about I told you, I ran it, and then we’re good?

Twyla: Just write down this time. I did it. I promise.

John: Right? Send me the T-shirt and the pretend medal.

Twyla: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, yeah, it just wasn’t motivating to me to sign up for something virtual. It created this opportunity to be really exploratory with what’s next and what do I want, to have more mental health as opposed to mental challenge. Because life was challenging enough, I need a balance, not more challenge added to my list. I started to then — like I said, I tried yoga, canceled. I tried thinking about traveling somewhere, canceled.

It got me thinking about what’s closer to me that I can still do that isn’t canceled that still is feeling grounding, balancing, outdoors. That became the mountains for me. I spent a lot of time in 2020, whether it was by myself on a little day trip, if that’s what I needed, or with my family. We spent weekends out there and even a week out there in the summertime, just to enjoy the mountains, which are a 45-minute drive for me. When you said planes, trains or autos, here I am saying planes, planes, but 45-minute drive and I get into the beautiful Rocky Mountains, which I do find very uplifting and grounding all at the same time.

You can do a variety of things out there, whether that’s hiking or still going for a run that’s not as competitive, how fast can I go, but just a nice run where you’re taking in the scenery more than anything. I took my laptop out to the mountains and just even did some creative work out there. No judgement here. Sit and enjoy a glass of wine, looking at the mountains, it all is just what I needed.

John: Just one glass? Come on now.

Twyla: I can’t tell you all my secrets, John.

John: Right, right, right. But that’s so true, just getting into nature and unplugging, literally and figuratively, can really do wonders for you. I love how you said that of the running was just as much mental as physical, which it is. There have been studies done with the Navy Seals and all that, where your brain tells you to stop before your body can actually stop. It’s a lot of mental. I agree with you totally. We don’t need more mental challenges in 2020. We need less. I love how you you came to that realization and then took action on it, which is great because you’re just in a better place. You’re a better professional because of it, which is great. It’s not more work and more, more, more. Sometimes it’s, take the foot off the gas a little bit. That’s so great to hear, and that’s so awesome.

Twyla: Yeah, what I love about being able to explore that and get to that spot is it’s not like I’m giving up running. I still go for runs. I’m just not training aggressively for anything. It’s not that I’m saying, running is a thing of the past for me, and I’ve moved on to something else. That’s not the case. It was just, especially last year, it was a not right now, not a not forever.

I just got really real with what it is that I needed in order to be the professional that I need to be, be the mom, be the wife, and more so now, needing to be the daughter, because my parents are getting older. They’ve moved in with us recently as a result of COVID, and my mum being faced with some mental challenges around COVID and how difficult it is. So I need to be able to be all these things.

So, that was getting just really honest with, alright, what do I need to keep myself centered and keep myself really grounded and really balanced while still having the opportunity to do something physical, but it’s something that’s really fulfilling and not an extra thing I’ve got to do each day.

John: No, that’s awesome. Yeah, because last year, yeah, it’s just a lot. When we first talked, these hobbies and passions and interests were a way to create connections with others and connections with clients and skills that we can bring to work and all this, but in 2020, it was, what can I do for my own sanity? That’s where your “and” is just as important for that also, so, kudos to you for doing that. That’s awesome. Is there a place in the mountains that you guys always went to, or just a variety of places?

Twyla: No, because it’s so close, you can go to a variety of places. There’s a town called Canmore, which is just outside of Banff that we often visit. It’s just a little bit smaller and a little bit quieter. That said, 2020, it was quieter than general because there were less tourists coming to the park, but, yeah, it depends on what we’re going to go do there. Where we wanting to just go and go for a little run around town and along the river and take in the views and then go for a nice little lunch? Which of course looked different, it was more takeout lunch and go sit on a bench, but is that what we wanted? Or was it like, well, we’re just going to go to — a couple of weekends ago, it was like, we’re just going to go do snowshoe for the morning and come back. So then you can go to a different spot. You don’t need to go into town. So, just depends what you’re going to do there, but it’s all within a 45 to 60-minute drive from us.

John: Do you find your almost, as a local tourist, discovering things? Oh, I didn’t even know this was here. Or I forgot this was here. I came when I was a kid or something like that.

Twyla: When it comes to hiking, it’s literally a playground that you can just keep exploring as long as something’s not too wildly steep. I am, in my older age, I’m getting to be a little bit wimpy when it comes to the steepness, but there’s just so many opportunities to check out, new places and see — even just seeing something in a different season looks different in the mountains. There’s a thing of the fall that’s got the pretty colors. There’s winter that’s obviously clearly different. Then there’s going out in the summertime when — we had a really warm summer last year, so it was quite hot for the mountains, where at the end, you could pop your legs into the river, which was quite cool and refreshing. It just looks and feels different each time of year.

John: That sounds so awesome. Do you feel like, since we chatted a couple of years ago, people are sharing their hobbies and passions more? I know you are, a ton. You’ve done a lot of videos and challenges with people on LinkedIn and social media, on Instagram or what have you. Do you feel like people are sharing their passions more?

Twyla: I feel like when you start to open up more, they start to open up more. It’s like you’ve opened the door for a safe space. I do think that inside of my new role with FreshBooks that I’m working for a global tech company that’s really predominantly been focused on software and a user experience of the software versus I’m creating an accounting professionals program. So I’m thinking very much about human experience.

What I would say that I’ve really learned since we last spoke is that the more human you are with somebody, the more opportunity there is for a deeper, authentic relationship. I think about that daily inside of this program. I think about that daily when we’re talking to our colleagues over remote Zoom chats and trying to do everything virtually. I used to think about that when we had clients, but you just think about it even more so now, with the changing time and the lack of opportunity to get together, face to face.

I do think that sharing more and being a bit more of an open book has created the opportunity for people to do the same and reciprocate that. It’s really quite interesting when you learn about somebody who, they’re a runner too. My initial boss at FreshBooks, I had no clue, but he is a runner. So then I quickly jumped onto my pictures. I was like, check out this one. Because he lives in the San Francisco Bay Area, so I probably showed him one of those pictures that I shared with you a few years ago, and said, “Here is the run that I did across the Golden Gate Bridge.”

You just quickly can connect with somebody when they do share the same passion or interest. It’s like, bingo, this is an instant connection. There are times that they’ll share something about a hobby that you’re like, you do what? You can just be really curious about what it is that they’re up to, and maybe it’s something that you become interested in. Or maybe it’s just something that you learn more about, and you actually challenge that part of your brain instead of challenging the part of your brain that’s all work, work, work, or balancing your life right now. I think it just paves that way, when you open up more, that they share more, and you just get to learn so much more about one another.

John: That’s so encouraging to hear that this isn’t like Harvard case study bubble world. This is the legit thing that, within the last several months, you put into action, like with FreshBooks, starting there, the person that you’re reporting to, and like, here are pictures of me running. We connect over running, so much stronger than something else, even if it’s not the thing, like you said.

I had somebody just a couple of weeks ago, I was just talking to, and they said that they like to play pickleball. I was like, I don’t even know what that is. Now I need to Google it. What is this? What? Where has this been all my life? There are no pickles involved at all. I’m so disappointed. Yeah, but it’s cool because it’s interesting, not only about them, but just to learn something new even, type of thing. That’s super cool to hear. Do you have any encouragement for others listening that maybe they have a hobby or a passion, maybe it’s pickleball or running, that they think no one cares about, or maybe it’s piggybacking even on the steps you’ve taken to take care of yourself first?

Twyla: I think my my biggest advice would be that is to get curious, but that can be about yourself and about the people that you are in relationships with, whether that’s work relationships or client relationships or what have you. I am on this real desire to make sure that I’m always being curious, and that doesn’t necessarily just mean about myself. There’s always lots to learn about yourself and we know that, but then getting curious about other people and what they’re up to, and just continual curiosity. What is this? What does this mean? What’s inside of this for me? What’s inside of this for my clients? What’s inside of this for our company or our firm or our growth? There are so many things.

Sometimes when you get curious, it can be like, what you learned is maybe something that you’re really not that comfortable with. At least you learned it, and you moved on from it, or that you learned it — some people would say, well, you gave up running, and you could beat yourself up around like, oh, I really should get back out for a run. Gosh, I haven’t had my running shoes on forever. Depending on your personality, you can actually really be quite down on yourself by letting go of something that you used to be really passionate about.

I think getting curious is understanding that’s okay that you’ve let go of that. Now you’ve embraced something different that you need more right now. That’s the curiosity that I love. If you can extend that beyond yourself into other people, you’ll start to see that other people probably have some other type of habits like that, too. It can be even an opportunity for you to learn more about them as to what is it that they’re drawn to. Why are they drawn to painting versus something highly aerobic? Or why are they drawn to pickleball?

Pickleball is a completely different challenge than squash or tennis. Why that? It could be my why to that is because I’ve got friends who play, and now I’ve got somebody to play with. It could be squash is indoors, and they want to be outdoors. There are all these different things. You can learn, well, they obviously are an outdoor person, not an indoor person. There’s just so much learning inside of just somebody saying, “Hey, this is what I do.” It’s like, hmm, interesting. I wonder why you like to knit versus you like to play pickleball.

John: Then, too, companies can use those talents and that mindset in a certain way. If somebody is in a band or does musical theater or whatever, well, they like to be in front of audiences. If somebody likes to knit or do jigsaw puzzles, probably doesn’t like to be in front of people. So, choose wisely when you have a presentation to give, type of thing, or what kind of clients they’re doing or all that stuff. Such wise words, for sure. It’s only fair though, before we wrap this up, because this has been super, super awesome, is to turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Twyla podcast. Thanks for having me on.

Twyla: Thanks for joining me, John.

John: Right, absolutely. I kind of poked myself.

Twyla: Alright, I got two questions for you, not rapid-fire. I’ll let you think about them and give us a good answer. Have you, John, taken on any new hobbies in the last year or further embraced any hobbies that you already had?

John: Oh, wow. Okay, you’re going to make me think now. This is going to hurt. This is going to be painful. For me, I guess having the book come out was a good amount of work, so that took up a lot of my time and energy, for sure, which is definitely work-related. For me, college football is one of my big hobbies, passions. That happened, which is huge, because I was, literally, like, I don’t know what I’ll do if that doesn’t happen because I can’t go to concerts, the ice cream places are all closed.

I did, actually, I picked up rowing. Running, every time I run, I’m just thinking of everything else I should be doing besides running. I don’t know why, but my brain can’t just enjoy running. I’m literally like, there’s 100 things I should be doing besides this. Rowing, I can — and I just got the basic. It’s not super at all. It’s less than 100 bucks rower, but put on a YouTube video with the training, and so I can watch that and then row and do that as well.

I also enjoy that because it’s like 20 minutes, 30 minutes, bang. You get a pretty good heart rate up and all that, where running is an hour. I don’t know what. It could be shorter, I guess, but I just feel like it should be longer. So I did pick that up near the end of the year. I’ve never rowed. I’ve never thought of rowing. I guess I’m a little bit tall, so I can hang out with rowers. I don’t know.

Twyla: You feel like you’ll fit in there.

John: Yeah. So I do it about five days a week.

Twyla: Nice.

John: Yeah.

Twyla: That’s awesome.

John: Yeah. I’ll probably, at some point, upgrade to the real rower thing. Yeah, we’ll see if I keep going with it.

Twyla: That’s awesome. I love it. Now, maybe rowing machine companies will, all of a sudden, have this spike in sales, and you could say, you’re welcome.

John: Right?

Twyla: My next question for you, which may be your answer might still be rowing, is, what are you doing for your mental health? I’m going to just tell you why I’m asking you this and why this is different than the hobbies one. I find that many of us, myself included, are really starting each day at the subconscious level of residual stress. We’re starting at below our norm, whether we know it or not.

I feel like there’s just numerous ways that we can all cope with this stress and this pressure, and I just honestly feel like the more ideas we all have in our idea bank, then we can just pull from these ideas when we need them. Or look at, well, that might work for me. If John’s doing that and it seems to be helping him, I’m going to try that. So, I would love to know what it is that you are doing for your mental stress when we’re going through this global pandemic.

John: Sure. So, outside of a glass of wine…

Twyla: Just one. Just one.

John: Don’t judge me. I didn’t say how big the glass was.

Twyla: Sure.

John: I was at an Italian restaurant the other day, and the owner of the restaurant was like, we have these glasses that can fit a whole bottle of wine. I was like, I don’t believe you. They don’t even look that big. I was like, I don’t believe you. Sure enough, he had an empty bottle, filled it with water, brought it over, and I was like, that is amazing. Anyway, one glass of wine. No, but rowing is good.

My wife and I have taken — we went to Cancun for Thanksgiving, US Thanksgiving, because we needed something to look forward to, so we booked it in like July or August. It came, and we were like, well, we’re going. It was just similar to you, where it’s going to the mountains or just getting out of your normal environment is so crucial because the work for everyone else now is — I mean, for me, it’s in my home anyway, but for everyone else, it’s also now in your home. It’s not just like a laptop that’s in a bag or your phone. It’s your whole setup is there. For some people, it’s their dining room table because our homes weren’t built for all of this, spouses with offices, kids with a school room, and your bedrooms and a living room.

Getting away from that physical space, I think is huge for taking that break or even making connections with others. When we go back to the offices, go for a walk or go out to lunch or something. For me, it’s just getting away. I have a dog, take him to the dog park. It’s like a 30-minute, 45-minute break, but it’s outside. The sun’s shining and a little bit of exercise and fresh air. Let him run around. Sure, subconsciously, I’m still thinking because it’s really hard to turn that off, but not actually doing the work, and I’m not in that in that environment.

That would be my biggest tip would be just get out of the house somehow, go for a walk around the block or something. You’re not going to get COVID from taking a walk a couple of blocks. You’re outside.

Twyla: Yeah.

John: But you’re right, there is a residual stress that’s there on all of our brains. That does take some mental toughness to get through. We’re not all in this together. We’re not all in the same place with the same experiences, with the same situation, so we’re not.

Twyla: I completely agree.

John: This has been great. Now you got me thinking and all of that stuff. My smoke alarm in my house is getting ready to go off.

Twyla: You’re going to have to take one of those walks outside.

John: Right, exactly. Exactly. Thank you so much, Twyla, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This is awesome.

Twyla: Thanks so much, John. It was so much fun catching up with you. I hope that you enjoy those walks. Keep rowing, and we’ll chat again soon.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Twyla out in the mountains or connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.