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Welcome to Episode 545 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work. And if you like what the show’s about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth in the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every weekend. This week is no different with my guest, Bill Mandara, Jr. He’s the CEO at Mancini Duffy in New York City. And now, he’s with me here today. Bill, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Bill: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

John: This is gonna be a blast. But before I get started on music, which I love also, let’s get to know Bill on a new level here with 17 rapid fire questions. Well, maybe an easy one. I don’t know. You’re in New York. City cheeseburger or pizza?

Bill: Pizza.

John: Yeah. Hands down, easy. Like that was a slam dunk. How about favorite color?

Bill: Red.

John: Red. Okay. All right. How about a least favorite color?

Bill: Brown.

John: Brown, yeah. That is by far the least favorite of all of them. How about a favorite movie of all time?

Bill: Goodfellas.

John: Nice.

Bill: Either that or Pulp Fiction, depending on the day you ask me.

John: Right. Okay. Okay. All right. How about when it comes to puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Bill: I don’t really do any of them honestly. Sorry.

John: Fair. No. No. Don’t apologize at all. You’re being honest. That totally works. I don’t have time for that stuff. How about talk or text?

Bill: Definitely text.

John: Definitely text. Here we go.

Bill: Too much talking.

John: Right. Especially after this podcast. You’re like I’m done for the day. Like that’s it. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Bill: Probably De Niro.

John: There you go. How about oceans or mountains?

Bill: Oceans. East Coast.

John: Yeah, East Coast. There you go. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Bill: Definitely Star Wars, but not those horrible prequels.

John: Oh, I know, right? All I did was the original three, and I heard such bad things about the others. I was like I don’t wanna taint it. So I have yet to see anything besides the original. How about your computer, PC or Mac?

Bill: Definitely Mac.

John: Oh, okay. Yeah.

Bill: I don’t even understand PCs. Why anybody would use one.

John: Maybe it’s that part of it. Okay. All right. There you go. How about do you prefer more hot or cold?

Bill: Cold.

John: Cold. Yeah.

Bill: You can always put clothes on.

John: Exactly. Especially when you’re waiting for the subway in the city. It’s terrible. Ice cream. I’m a huge ice cream fan. Favorite ice cream flavor?

Bill: Mint chocolate chip.

John: Old school. Nice. I like it.

Bill: Green one though. Not that natural white stuff.

John: Right.

Bill: I want the food coloring.

John: Yeah. It doesn’t taste the same. If it’s not green, it’s not minty. I’m with you on that one. How about a favorite sports team?

Bill: New York Jets.

John: Ah, okay. Dave Diaz.

Bill: Sadly, Jets.

John: Yeah. There you go. Hey, but you’re a diehard. How about a favorite number?

Bill: 9.

John: 9. Is there a reason?

Bill: I don’t know. I mean, I was born in September. I don’t know. I just like 9. I like the way it looks.

John: No, that’s great. Very cool. All right. We got three more. When it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or a real book?

Bill: e-Book.

John: e-Book. Okay.

Bill: You can read them when you’re in the bathroom.

John: Right. There you go. And how about cats or dogs?

Bill: Definitely dogs.

John: Definitely. Yeah. Me too.

Bill: Yeah. Not a cat guy.

John: Yeah. Yeah. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Bill: My swimming pool.

John: Swimming pool, okay.

Bill: My favorite thing I own.

John: There you go. That’s solid. I love it. That’s awesome. And especially with a guy that has a lot of cool stuff. Swimming pool, top of the list. That’s great. So, yeah. So let’s talk music, man. How’d you get started? What did you play?

Bill: So I got started in the fifth grade. I went to small little Catholic school here in New Jersey, and there were two priests. They said— I don’t remember their names— Father whatever could teach you the guitar and Father whatever could teach you the drums. So I opted for guitar. And I was like “Okay, cool. When do I get to learn how to play?” You know, like whatever was my favorite at the time.

John: Yeah. Songs I hear on the radio. Absolutely.

Bill: I wanna hear something cool, right? Detroit Rock City. And then a guy got an acoustic guitar and then they showed you how to strum for 3 days. I’m like “Well, that’s not for me. Let me try the drums.” So I sat with the other priest and two guys,and they gave you a little pad. I’m like “Well, this kind of sucks too.”

John: Right? ‘Cause it mutes the sound. Right?

Bill: And then after about a week of that and my mother taking me to the store to buy a snare drum, I would just sit in a room and bang that. And my father somehow, as my father would tend to do, just came home one day with a drum set. I’m like “Where’d you get that? He goes “Ah, somebody owed me some money.” My dad was a contractor. So it was always like somebody didn’t pay him for something, so he got stuff. So he just literally came home with this drum set. And I would just sit there in my room over and over again with headphones on, listening to anything I could, went along with it for years. And that continued literally through middle school. And you know, I tried at my mother’s behest joining the band when I went to high school. And they gave you this giant Q-tip to put on your head. And I’m like “Look, I’m 140 pounds and, yeah, this doesn’t help me in my situation.”

John: Right? Right.

Bill: This isn’t why I started playing the drums.

John: Right?

Bill: So basically, I would just go to my parents’ basement every day and play along with like Van Halen II and Rush Moving Pictures till I got the note. And then around then, you know, I met some friends in high school, formed some bands. We played the same like three Judas Priest songs over and over again. Horribly.

John: Right.

Bill: You know, we thought we were the best.

John: Sure. In your high school, I’m sure you were.

Bill: No, we were bad. We were bad. We were really bad. And then, you know, I think in high school, there was actually like a battle of the bands and we played Run to the Hills by Iron Maiden. And then instead of singing along with Run to the Hills, the crowd was chanting get off the stage.

John: That’s awesome.

Bill: Somewhere, a friend of mine has a video of that, which I hope never resurfaces.

John: That’s fantastic.

Bill: Yeah. I mean, music has always been kind of what I wanted to do, what I enjoy. And you know, I mean, just fast forward to when I was old— Yeah, I played in bands in college with some other guys. You know, much better we played. Played around New Jersey, Jersey Shore, North Jersey area in the ’90s. All the stuff you would expect to be playing in the ’90s. I had a lot of fun. Played in some original bands. I had a bass player that was perpetually late to practice, and my singer at the time also played drums. So any time you’d get up to go to the bathroom, you’d sit down at the drum kit and you couldn’t get back. So I just picked up the bass and started learning how to play that. And then, eventually, I don’t even know when at some point, just kind of picked up guitar too and just kinda went from there.

John: That’s fantastic, man. I love it. But I mean, to write your own music and— I mean, that’s super, super hard, you know. It’s hard enough to play the instruments, but then to write your own music, that’s the next level.

Bill: It actually kind of came out in an odd fashion. We had this guy in the office who left. He would leave very bizarre voicemails to people. And I thought it was a joke. And I said,
“What if I take this voicemail and just put it to music?” He had this kind of weird voice.

John: That’s great.

Bill: And I just started playing. And then there were several voicemails. And you know, I would just kind of make these goofy things, and sit there and noodle around the guitar, and annoy my wife. And kinda during COVID, I guess, I was listening to my son practice for— He did a lot of musicals in high school. And I was like “Wow, he could actually sing pretty well. Let me see about this.” So during COVID, we redid my house, and I’m in this room I’m in now. I, kind of hit or miss, bought a lot of equipment, bought the wrong stuff, returned it, bought other stuff, and kind of built my own little recording area here.

John: Okay.

Bill: And learned how to use Logic Pro and do some basic recording. And in the process realized I actually could write some songs. And I was always like “Well, I can’t write lyrics. That’s why I just do these goofy voicemail things.”

John: Sure.

Bill: And a friend of mine was just like— We were playing golf one day. And he was like “All right, look, you can write lyrics. You know, I’ve seen how you write.” And gave me a couple tips. And then, again, during COVID, sitting around with nothing to do, I just started writing lyrics. And then my son came in, started singing ’em. And you know, again, through the process of trying, failing, trying, failing again, eventually, you know, figured out how to write some songs, record them, get ’em mastered, throw ’em out there. And you know, I have one album that we released about almost 2 years ago. And I have another one that’s almost done now, about another 12 songs. I have like five more songs behind that too that are like all kind of half done.

John: That’s great though. But I mean, just like a fun, creative outlet. And also too, the thing to take away from this is, I mean, you’re downplaying the musicianship of it all. But you know, like you don’t have to be good. You don’t have to be a touring band that everyone’s heard of. You enjoy it, you know. So like that’s all that matters, is you enjoy it.

Bill: Absolutely. I mean, look, you know what I mean. I was into a lot of music that’s far more intricate than I can necessarily write on the guitar. But yeah, I mean, listen, it’s a great outlet and it’s actually interesting to me how many people in my profession in architecture and the real estate industry in general, but particular architecture are also musicians. There’s several people in my office that are as well. A few years ago, we actually got enough of us together. We played like our Christmas party for a couple of years in a row.

John: That’s awesome!

Bill: Yeah. And then one of the guitar players went to go work for Elon Musk.

John: Right. Never heard of him. But that’s a fun way to just like let people see you come alive.

Bill: Oh, yeah. Oh, it’s a cool way to get to know each other too because you kind of see each other all day, and everybody’s stressed out and yelling. You’re getting yelled at by clients, whatever. And then one night, we go to discovery play. You go to a practice studio, have some beers or whatever, and be like “Wait, a second, everybody’s actually pretty cool.”

John: Right?

Bill: And like “Hey, I can actually play.” You’re like “Wait a second. Maybe, you know, this guy is pretty good.”

John: Yeah, we could do some stuff here. That’s awesome, man. Like do you have any favorite memories from back in the day from when you were performing besides the talent show that you got booed off the stage?

Bill: That was definitely not a favorite memory. Well, I would definitely say my favorite memory of playing was the fact that I met my wife a million years ago.

John: Okay.

Bill: You know, we happened to be playing somewhere, and she knew my bass player. So it’s actually how I wound up meeting my wife. So that’s my favorite for sure.

John: Which is the reason you learned the drums right there. It was nice to be in the marching band.

Bill: Why does anybody start playing music when they’re a kid?

John: Right. Totally. Exactly.

Bill: ‘Cause there’s one reason. So, you know, to check that box, success. That was obviously cool. But in particular, we used to play this place in New Jersey. It was called The Clubhouse. And it was a really cool place. It was like 3 floors and they had like— if you were lucky enough to play the main floor one— There was a lot of people, and it was huge sound system, and it was great. We played there, again, mid-’90s. And one of the guys goes to my singer and goes “Last time you were here, you played Rage Against the Machine. There was a mosh pit and this, that, the other. You better not play it. You don’t play it, whatever.” And the guy was real jerk. I overheard. And me being me— He told a couple people. I made sure my guitar player didn’t know about it. And sure enough, the last song, I look at him like “Come on, let’s go. Let’s do it.” He was like “Yeah. Let’s just do it.” And I start the song. Oh, I thought this guy was gonna kill him.

John: Bulls on Parade. Here it comes.

Bill: I think it was actually Freedom.

John: Oh, okay. Okay. All right.

Bill: Yeah, it didn’t go over too well and it was really neat.

John: It was the last song. What are you gonna do? All right. We’re done anyway.

Bill: What? You’re not gonna pay us the like $84 you were gonna pay us anyway? It’s not something for money.

John: Exactly.

Bill: And again, that’s up there. And then more recently, I think, you know, not one particular moment, but just recording with my son was really cool.

John: Yeah, that’s powerful.

Bill: It’s a really cool thing. You know, you can do it together. It’s a fun thing to have and it’s kind of a really neat bond to have with your son.

John: No, I love it man. I love it. And so, do you feel like any of your music side gives you a skillset that you bring to work?

Bill: I think so. High school band aside, you know, when you’ve gone out and you’ve played to like your mom, and your girlfriend, and like four other people out there in a place that holds like 150 people, you get a little bit of humility.

John: Right.

Bill: And then quite the opposite too, like, you know— So I mentioned before, I’m a cover band, my singer played the drum, so we would switch off. And not that I’m a great singer, but when you go out there in a place down the shore with 250 drunk people, you don’t even have a drum set to hide behind, it kinda makes you not be the shy kid that you are. So it helps with that too. And again, I think it’s just the overall creativity, which is why I think in architecture, in particular, there’s so many musicians too because it’s a good creative outlet.

John: Yeah. No, I love it. I mean, you know, I was a CPA and my creative outlet was comedy. And it’s not necessarily super common, but it’s really great that it’s the other side of the brain, you know. So then the analytical side or whatever can just take a rest.

Bill: Make people laugh when they found out they owe the government a bunch of money in tax.

John: Right. Exactly. Plus, like when you’re auditing people and they— Like I walk in and people are like “Man, you’re my favorite auditor ever.” And I’m like “Is that a compliment? Like maybe I’m not good. Like I don’t know what’s happening right now, but I’ll take it. I’ll take it.” No, that’s great though, but I love how you’re sharing it and then getting a group together to play at holiday parties or things like that. Like is it something that you’ve talked about through your career?

Bill: Oh, absolutely. I think that nobody can be around me for more than half an hour and not hear some sort of musical reference. In particular, probably from some rush lyric that I used to get through most of my literature classes in college.

John: There you go.

Bill: Yeah, no. I’m always dropping some sort of music reference. And again, I think it’s just one of those things everybody kind of knows ’cause I’m not shy about it. And I’m obviously a bit opinionated on music too.

John: There you go. Did it ever cross your mind, especially when you were younger, like oh, people are gonna judge me or whatever or it’s just take it or leave it?

Bill: Not at all. I mean, I would say that I kind of— For me, at least, being an architect was just kind of almost like what I was just gonna do since I was a kid ’cause my family was in the business and it was just that. And you know, in my 20s or so, it kind of got to the point where it was like in the back of my mind, I kind of thought maybe, just maybe, the music thing might work out and, you know, I’ll go to college, and I’ll do this architecture stuff to keep my parents off my back and keep them cool. And then eventually, I think in my mid-20s or so was when I realized I gotta kind of get serious about the architecture thing because—

John: Right. I guess this is what I’m doing. All right.

Bill: Well, one day, the Smashing Pumpkins are gonna need a drummer and call me.

John: Yeah. Right.

Bill: And it turns out they needed a drummer and they didn’t call me.

John: Right. They did need a drummer. You’re right.

Bill: Yeah. I was supposed to go to that show actually. I was at the Garden I think of like ’95.

John: Oh, no.

Bill: But yeah, it came to the point where I was like, all right, I guess I gotta be serious about this.

John: You just Milli Vanilli fake it. It’s just like And I did take a little break for music here and there for about maybe about 4 or 5 years. Not on purpose. Just I had gotten married at that time. And you know, life starts to happen. I didn’t really play too much music. And then in the early 2000s, you know, my early 30s or so, I started playing again with some other people and then always played on my own. And then recently, you know, got back. I’ve played with several different people. I have a bunch of guys— One of my best friends since I was 16 years old invited me to play with this band in 2019.

John: Nice.

Bill: We played a really cool show. And these were like, you know, really top flight musicians. I was kinda like “Ooh, I better practice.”

John: I better practice.

Bill: I don’t usually practice that much.

John: You just Milli Vanilli fake it. It’s just like I’ll air guitar it.

Bill: Got to play with them and then, you know, this was gonna be great. And then, of course, COVID happens and that wasn’t the thing anymore. But I was actually recording some music with those guys too. So it’s been great being able to play with different people. Even some of the music I have coming out now, I’ve reached out to some friends I used to play with. And one of my buddies who used to be in my band, outstanding guitar player, he played down my three solos for me on songs. That’s a new thing for me now collaborating on songs I’ve written on, but it’s great.

John: Right? You’re like the new Jay-Z, man. But when you weren’t playing music, do you feel like when you went back, it was different at work or like the corporate side of you?

Bill: No. No.

John: Or did it matter?

Bill: No. It’s always just there.

John: Well, yeah, it was definitely always under the surface.

Bill: Yeah. I don’t mean to sound cocky at all ’cause I’m certainly not like that. But I would say that playing the drums is just one of those things for me. It’s like riding a bike, you know. I could go years without doing it and just sit down and be fine. Will it take me a little bit to get your timing back? Sure. But overall, like it’s something that I can just kind of do.

John: Yeah.

Bill: It’s probably the only thing I’ve ever just done that felt natural.

John: That’s amazing.

Bill: I was never very athletic at all. My father would joke around that I tripped over chalk lines and—

John: Oh, man.

Bill: People would go see me to play the drums. They’re like “I don’t understand it. Like you’re so uncoordinated yet you can play the drums. Does that make sense?”

John: Yeah. But the cymbals in the drums are everywhere in a drum kit. So it’s like I can’t miss.

Bill: That is why I have so many cymbals in drums.

John: Right? Right. Man, this guy’s amazing. It’s like I don’t know what I’m doing. That’s really cool, man. I love it. That’s super awesome. And I guess how much do you feel like it’s on an organization to create space for people to be able to share their “and” versus how much is it on the individual to just get it going?

Bill: I think it’s unbelievably important because if you go somewhere every day and you know you have to fit into a mold and just be that person— and I did that for quite a while. It’s kind of soul sucking, and it’s not somewhere you’re gonna feel comfortable. And honestly, it’s also important to get to know people. It’s good to know. If you want somebody to work somewhere and be there long term, it’s good to know who they are, who they are as a person. Plus, it’s interesting. Like what we do is very stressful. It can be a lot of fun. It can be exhausting sometimes. And it is good to know what other people do. And I think that was kind of one of the interesting things about COVID too was that everybody on these Zoom meetings got to see like “Hey, got a guitar back there. I didn’t know you played guitar.” Or “You got a pair of golf clubs back there. I didn’t know you played. We should get out.” Of all the crappy stuff, I think it was kind of interesting. So we did get to know like what some people’s “ands” are, which was pretty cool.

John: Yeah. And it’s a nice reminder of “Oh, yeah, I work with humans that have other dimensions to who they are.”

Bill: We’re not robots. We’re not little AI things running around.

John: I just figured in your background you’d have a bunch of like Lego buildings. You’re like doing architecture at home too.

Bill: Right. Exactly.

John: And you’re like “No. Like, what, are you crazy?” It’s like maybe there’s the one person that does that, but no, no one does that. Like what are you talking about? And I think that’s great, man. That’s really cool. Is there something that Mancini Duffy does specific to get people to share their “ands” or encourage that?

Bill: It really just kind of happens organically. So, you know, we are a pretty social firm. Every once a month, we have a town hall, and we order food and have drinks and everything. We have what we call a summer camp where everybody comes over for a barbecue with their family. We’ll alternate houses between mine and my partner, Christian. And through that actually, you start to find out these things about people. Like when we had the party at my house, I was talking to one of my coworkers. And I’m a big barbecue guy. I have a Big Green Egg. And her and her husband were like “Oh, my God, you have it.” And then we kind of wound up learning that like there are these awesome barbecuers. And so, I think a lot of it just kind of happens organically. I guess, to me, anything else other than like these things happening organically just kind of feels disingenuous and contrived, and that’s just not who I could ever— I mean, it works for a lot of people. Just it doesn’t work for me.

John: But also, you set the tone at the top, which is great, where you’re like on Zoom or on the video calls. You got stuff in the background. You know, when you’re out, you’re talking about music. You’re talking about barbecue. You’re bringing not work lingo to these conversations when it’s not time for that. We’re with families, and we’re hanging out, and we’re getting to know each other type of thing.

Bill: And realistically, everybody’s gonna do their best work when they’re happy and when they’re comfortable, when they’re themselves, you know.

I mean, I think that for better or worse, I learned a long time ago that I’ve been a square peg in a round hole many, many times, and I’ve learned to just embrace it, and it can’t just be me.

John: Right? No, it’s not. I’m with you, man. I’m a square peg in an octagon hole. It’s not even round. It’s like some weird thing.

Bill: Right. And so, again, just, you know, I think allowing people to be themselves and express themselves. And what they do and learn about each other is just the way where everybody’s gonna eventually do their best work as well.

John: Yeah, no, you’re right. I mean, when I do like leadership presentations and stuff, it’s “Are your people living their best life?” ‘Cause if they are, they’ll do their best work.

Bill: That’s important. It’s important.

John: Yeah. No, I love it. That’s awesome, man. That’s so great. So I guess before we wrap this up, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe they know all the Rush lyrics as well or no, but they have a hobby or an outside of work passion that they feel like, well, no one’s gonna care ’cause it has nothing to do with my job?

Bill: I would just say (A) I don’t wanna sound like Nike, but literally just try it. Just do it. Just throw it out there and be yourself. You know? I mean, if you’re into cooking, if you’re into gardening, whatever it is, just throw it out there and just be yourself, and you’re gonna be a much happier person.

John: I love it, man. That’s so good. So good. Well, I feel like before we wrap this up, it’s only fair that I turn the table since I rudely fired away questions at you at the beginning. So we’ll make this the first episode of The Bill Mandara, Jr. podcast. Thanks for having me on. And I’ll let you pick the intro music, so I don’t wanna mess that up, but I’m all yours. Whatever you got, man.

Bill: Well, my question ’cause you just moved your head though, I was gonna ask about that helmet, is that a Notre Dame helmet back there?

John: It is a Notre Dame helmet. Yeah, absolutely.

Bill: Did you go to Notre Dame?

John: I went to Notre Dame. Huge Notre Dame football fan. College football in general. But yeah, Notre Dame’s definitely my team for sure.

Bill: It is intriguing to me, anybody that does stand up, because I feel like you have to have nerves of steel, as outgoing as I tend to be, and sometimes you gotta breathe deep and do it. What was that like the first time you decided to go on a stage?

John: Oh, man, first time on stage was at the Funny Bone in St. Louis in Westport Plaza. I lived there, worked at the PWC office, and we had had a training in Pasadena. And so, I went down to the improv in Hollywood a couple of weeks when I was there. And I was like “Well, I could be as not funny as a couple of these people.” And that was Hollywood, you know. I didn’t realize you could just move to Hollywood, but anyway. So I went to the open mic night just to watch and then I was like “I’ll go now. Like I’ll definitely not be the worst person that ever did comedy.” So, the next week, I swiped a legal pad from the work supply closet, and I just was writing down joke ideas. And I had a full legal page of joke ideas, so just concepts.

And so, I went over to dinner at my parents’ house the night before, and I had already signed up. I was gonna go the next day. In their defense, I only read the joke concepts, so I didn’t do the joke. I just told them the joke ideas and I mean probably 40. And the only two responses I got were “We didn’t raise you that way” and my dad said “You can’t say that.” And I was like “Oh, this is not good at all. Like I thought all these were killer.” And so, I went over to my buddy’s house, and we figured out ones that were good, and then the next day went up. And it’s the funny bone and quite a few people from high school were there. Quite a few people from work. My parents were there. My mom was holding the video camera, so we didn’t realize to bring a tripod because it’s the first time.

And so, my parents laughed harder than anyone else in the audience. And I’m like “24 hours ago, you were like not moving a face, like no muscle. And now, you’re like—” The video is literally me telling jokes and then my mom like shaking the camera from laughing so hard. And it’s on VHS. I got it digitized and yeah. But I mean, the first time you go up, like I had a little index card in my hand of like set list basically. And it actually went pretty well. Like especially for the first time, it went really well. Like I already signed up. Like the emcee’s gonna say my name.

Bill: This happened in one way or another.

John: Yeah. So like I should have been nervous when I signed up the week before, but I’m not nervous now ’cause you’re gonna say my name and I have to go or else I look really stupid. But having people that I knew there, that made it more difficult honestly ’cause I was like “Oh, man, it’d be better if it was no one I knew.” And then who cares?

Bill: That was gonna be my next question. If you had a couple like throwaway gigs before you told people.

John: No. That was the first one and it was like good friends of mine. So I knew they’d be supportive anyway, and I think they were sort of like “I don’t know what he is gonna do. Like let’s find out.” I mean, probably like you playing the drums where it’s like “Well, let’s see what happens with this train wreck.”

Bill: Same thing with the mom with the VHS camera, you know.

John: Right? Yeah. And you gotta get it on digital before the tape erodes.

Bill: Yeah. Some of those tapes I hope melt, but—

John: Right? That’s awesome, man. Well, no, I appreciate you being a part of What’s Your “And”?, Bill. Thank you so much.

Bill: Thank you. It’s been fun.

John: And everyone listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Bill in action, or maybe connect with him on social media, or get links to his music, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

And don’t forget to read the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 543 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work. And who else are you is basically the question that it’s asking.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every weekend. This week is no different with my guest, Mary McDonald. She’s a principal at Hansen House Company in Duluth, Minnesota. And now, she’s with me here today. Mary, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Mary: John, thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.

John: This is gonna be a blast. We’ve been following each other on Twitter. I’ve been laughing at your tweets and I’m like we gotta get Mary on here. And there’s something more to her besides tax.

Mary: Absolutely. Yes.

John: Right? There we go. So we got 17 rapid fire questions. Get to know Mary out of the gate here in case we go do photography together. I need to make sure that we can hang out and it won’t get weird. So we’ll start with maybe— This is one of my favorite ones. Favorite Disney character.

Mary: Oh, my gosh. I’m gonna have to go with Aurora. She was the first one that I ever saw on a movie screen. That was my first movie.

John: Nice. Yeah. Very cool. All right. How about a puzzle? Sudoku, crossword, or a Jigsaw puzzle?

Mary: Crosswords all the way. I’m a words girl.

John: Okay. Okay. How about a favorite color?

Mary: All of them.

John: There you go. Just in case they’re listening. Just in case they’re listening. Like we don’t want any—

Mary: I’m a tax person, John. It depends, right? What’s my mood, what’s the weather like, what are we wearing, what do we need.

John: Right. Or am I looking at it? Am I wearing it right?

Mary: Right. Exactly. Is somebody else wearing it? Am I judging it?

John: Right. Well, I’m judging it either way, but—

Mary: Right. Right. Yeah.

John: So I feel like I know the answer to this one, but I’m still gonna ask. Least favorite color.

Mary: No. I love all my children. Right?

John: All right. I was gonna try and trick you ’cause you were gonna be like brown. And I’ll be like “Ah! Ha! There it is.” But all right. Fair enough. Are you more talk or text?

Mary: Text, I think. My mother even will text me to call her, so yeah.

John: Oh, okay.

Mary: She’s figured it out.

John: That works. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Mary: Oh, you know, I think I’m gonna have to go Sean Connery.

John: Oh, nice. Classic. He’s in some good stuff. That’s for sure. Oh, this an important one. Toilet paper roll. Is it over or under?

Mary: Over. There’s no question.

John: All right. All right. Fair. That’s typically the second half of that answer.

Mary: There’s one right answer.

John: Right? Normally, I’d say there’s no wrong answers in this, but there are on some of them. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Mary: All right. I’m sorry to do it ’cause I’m a tax person again. Right? It depends. Which Star Trek are we talking?

John: Oh, okay.

Mary: So, you know, I’m a next generation girl, so I love my Picard. But Star Wars is classic, so I don’t know if you can go wrong.

John: So, both. I’ll take it. That’s all right. Are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Mary: Early bird.

John: Early bird.

Mary: Yeah. I think the older I get, the earlier I—

John: Right? It’s weird like that. It’s like “Oh, man, I just wanna sleep in.” It’s like “Nope, not happening.” Your computer, more PC or a Mac?

Mary: So, for work, it’s PC at home. And personally, it’s Mac.

John: Oh, look at you, ambidextrous.

Mary: I am.

John: All right. I’m impressed. All right. Ice cream. I’m a huge ice cream eater. You do it a cup or in a cone?

Mary: In a cup. Unless you’ve got the waffle cones with like the malted milk balls in the bottom. I don’t like the drippy part.

John: Oh, malted. Okay. I like that. Them melted in the bottom. So then it keeps it from dripping out.

Mary: Exactly. And then you’ve got the melted milk ball at the bottom.

John: Yeah, there’s a prize at the end. I like that. That’s next level right there. I’m impressed. All right. All right.

Mary: That’s right. Stick with me, kid.

John: Right? If you take anything away from this podcast, you can hit stop now, everybody. And we’ve already learned something.

Mary: That’s right. You know how to eat ice cream cones.

John: Right? We’ve all got diabetes. But either way, it’s all good.

Mary: It’s all right.

John: It’s all good. Like it tastes yummy. Prefer more hot or cold?

Mary: Hot. I live in Duluth, Minnesota where it gets cold a lot, but I definitely prefer hot.

John: But it’s like so cold. It’s hot there.

Mary: It burns, right? Your face burns when you go outside.

John: I’ve been where in the morning, like the night before, it’s like frozen over the lake. And then all of a sudden, like the next morning, you’re like “Oh, there’s water there. Okay, good to know. There’s boats.”

Mary: Nice. Okay. Sweet.

John: Well, the icebreaker coming through. It’s like “What?”

Mary: That’s like the best time of year when the icebreaker comes through. Yeah.

John: That’s some next level stuff. All right. Balance sheet or income statement?

Mary: I know that you’re supposed to say balance sheet ’cause that’s where everything’s kept track of, but I think in terms of usefulness to clients and just in general, profit and loss

John: No, I agree. I don’t think there is a right answer to be honest. And I think it’s funny how people justify the difference. You get the full trial balance people. You get everybody that wants everything and it’s like “Mmm…”

Mary: Right. Yeah.

John: Slow down there. You’re not looking at everything. You’re just asking for that to be a pain to the client.

Mary: Sure.

John: All right, we got four more. Do you have a favorite number?

Mary: 2.

John: And the reason?

Mary: It’s the first even number.

John: Ah, nice. All right, there we go. There’s a reason. Books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Mary: So, ideally, real book. I love the feel of ’em. I read too much and too fast, so I have all of them on e-Books. Plus, there’s the instant gratification of, you know, you’re in the middle of a series and you just want the next one. Amazon is brilliant. Okay, just gimme the next seven.

John: Right? Right? They hook you like that. They really do.

Mary: Oh, seriously. They take way too much of my money.

John: Right? That’s awesome. Two more. A favorite band or musician.

Mary: All right. This one is trickier for me. I’m not a huge auditory person. And so, I don’t necessarily know. Can I go with like a genre?

John: Yeah, totally.

Mary: So like ’80s. ’80s music.

John: So Madonna, some Cyndi Lauper, some— All right.

Mary: Exactly. You know, little Whitesnake.

John: Oh, okay.

Mary: Some AC/DC. Let’s get across the board here, but yeah.

John: Okay. All right. I like it. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing.

Mary: My relationships.

John: Ah, nice. That’s good. That’s rich. I like that. So let’s talk outdoor macro photography. I know what outdoor is. What is macro?

Mary: It’s the opposite of economics, right? So macro photography is when I can get right down into the depth and I’m taking pictures of really tiny things.

John: Ah, really up close.

Mary: Yeah.

John: Okay. All right.

Mary: Really up close.

John: And so, what are some of the favorite things that you’ve taken pictures of? I mean, is this like a bigger thing that then you zoom in on like a tree bark, like a little part, or is it like tiny, tiny bugs?

Mary: I’ve done both.

John: Okay.

Mary: Yeah. So we actually have some property north of Duluth if you can imagine going north from here.

John: Right. Santa lives there.

Mary: Right. Exactly. Exactly. And the elves are tiny, so I’m just out and about taking pictures.

John: We’re gonna change this to elf pictures instead of outdoor macro photography.

Mary: Right. That’s what I do. I take pictures of elves, you know. Santa throws me a candy cane every once in a while.

John: Right. You’re on the nice list. You’re good.

Mary: I am. We go way back, me and Santa. So I kind of got into it because on part of this land we’ve got a fen. Technically, it’s what’s called a poor fen because there isn’t any water that directly feeds into it, but it’s all sphagnum moss and peats. And we have a whole bunch of carnivorous plants. So we’ve got pitcher plants and then there’s a plant called the round leaf sundew, which is the biggest leaf that I’ve seen. It’s about the size of like a pencil eraser like at the end of the pencil.

John: Oh, wow.

Mary: Yeah. So they’re tiny. They’re tiny, tiny little things. And then they’ve got these even smaller little dewdrops on the ends of the leaves. And so, I started taking pictures of those and then I was looking around, and there’s moss and all these mushrooms. You know, we’ve got cranberries and these tiny little flowers down there. It’s so interesting to see this other world outside of where we’re at. So that’s kind of how I got into it. And then some of it is too just, you know, zooming really close in on something. So it’s being able to look at something a little bit differently.

John: Ah, yeah, I like that a lot. That’s really good. And stuff that you probably walked by many times before until you actually just go through that lens literally and figuratively to just take the moment to just look at it differently. I like that.

Mary: Yeah.

John: That’s really cool. So were you into photography before or was it just something that got ramped up?

Mary: It’s something that just kind of got ramped up. So we had lived in Duluth before and we moved to the cities for a while. Now, we are back. So it’s really kind of as we’ve been back in Duluth, so since like 2016-17 that I’ve really started to get into it. As a kid, I loved the idea of photography. But growing up in the ’80s without digital photography, (A) there’s no instant gratification. You have no idea if your picture worked out or not until 3 weeks later when you go to the store and you pick it up and then you can’t remember what you were trying to get.

John: Right.

Mary: And I was always really frustrated because I can see the colors a certain way, I can see the shapes a certain way, and I couldn’t get the camera to do that work.

Now, part of that was because I had really basic cameras and I don’t have the background of actual photography. But with the cameras that are out now, with the digital cameras especially that are out and just my phone being able to get out, I can see what I’m doing, and I can see that it’s that image I have in my head. I’m able to get it across.

John: That’s cool. So do you prefer the phones or an actual like DSLR kind of—

Mary: I have an actual DSLR and I love taking it out. I find I’m directionally challenged, so you can throw me in the woods and I’m not coming home.

John: All right.

Mary: So I always have my phone with me regardless because that’s where the map is that shows me where I started.

John: There you go.

Mary: And the little icon with the little thing, the little radar symbol that says you’re facing this way, go this way to get to where you started.

John: Right.

Mary: So, you know, I always have my phone with me, and I sometimes find myself in the middle of the woods or an alder swamp or someplace where it’s just too much work to have the camera too. So I tend to use the camera more at home or with flowers around the house, things like that, and my phone out in the woods just because I’m less likely to damage something.

John: Yeah. Or lose it.

Mary: Exactly.

John: Plus, they’re heavy to be hiking around with.

Mary: They really kind of are. Yeah. The phone, you slip in your pocket. You walk along until you find something cool and then you can do it. Yeah. My husband has learned that if we are going walking together, he needs to be very patient because we’re stopping every couple feet ’cause “Oh, did you see this? When I look over there, there’s that.” Now, flip side, I have found a lot of things we can eat in the woods. So I feel like I’m, you know, providing some value to the family when we do it.

John: Oh, okay. Fancy. I like it. Wow. All right. So you’re like all like outdoorsy now.

Mary: You know, once you start taking pictures of things, and you look at it, and you’re trying to figure out what it is, then you learn about it. And now, you kind of know all these extra things.

John: You can go off grid.

Mary: Oh, let me tell you. Except in the winter because, now, why would I do that? I like my bed. I like my heat. I like my roof. It’s fine.

John: That would be nuts. That’s for sure. And so, do you have like some favorite pictures or things that have been more of your favorite type of things that you’ve taken or pictures that you’ve taken and you’re like “Wow, that’s really good, I can’t believe I took that”?

Mary: There have been some. Yeah. Some of the round leaf sundew. I have a tendency to look up too. I actually have them in my office, but I’ve got a picture from the inside of a birch clump. So, when one birch dies, oftentimes you’ll see like a group of 3, or 4, or 6 that grow around where the dead one had been. So there’s a space in the middle. And I was out and stood in the middle of it and then looked up. So I’ve got that picture looking up at the 6 trees around me. So that’s definitely one of my favorites.

John: Yeah. And I love how you mentioned that you have a print in your office like, so, you brought it in. So it’s a conversation starter I imagine.

Mary: Oh, absolutely. I actually have four of ’em right now. And we bought a printer so I could just rotate pictures out ’cause, you know what, why keep the same one there all the time?

John: Yeah. I imagine it brings you joy to see the pictures, to know that you took the pictures and then people are like “Oh, what’s she got in there now? Oh, there’s a new one.”

Mary: There’s a new one. And where was this one or what is this one?

John: Right.

Mary: It’s so hard to tell. You know, you get really enclosed to— I’ve got one up there right now that is the seed pods of moss.

John: Oh, wow.

Mary: Yeah. So when you look at the picture, it’s hard to know what it is. And if you’re to look at it from a distance, right, it would just be moss. But once I got down, I was able to kind of zoom in and look at the rest of it. It’s just these really cool pods with these little fluffy things coming out.

John: That’s very cool.

Mary: And it’s fun to be able to look at ’em too, right? I get to look and say “Oh, yeah, I remember that day. I remember that day.” Or when clients are really pushing the envelope of what’s appropriate, you could take a minute and look and say “Oh, you know what, that was a really nice day.” Eventually, I will get back to that and be able to be outside and not dealing with this person.

John: Yeah. No, I love it. That’s exactly it. It’s things that bring you joy and then you’re able to have them in your office and then it’s cool that other people know that about you and that you don’t hide it. Was there a part of you that was like “Oh, I don’t know if I should tell people that I took these ’cause they’re gonna judge me for whatever”?

Mary: Oh, gosh, absolutely. I still struggle with the idea of calling myself a photographer. You know, I take pictures. I trump in the woods and I take pictures.

John: That’s great!

Mary: That’s what I do. Right. And my office manager will say to me “Well, how is that not a photographer?” I’m like it’s for me.

John: That’s fair.

Mary: So, yeah. So I struggle with the label of it and then of course kind of saying “Are people gonna like it and all the rest of this?” And then I finally realized that I really don’t care if other people like it or not ’cause I do.

John: Exactly. It’s your office.

Mary: It’s my office.

John: Yeah. It’s not distracting people from getting their work done or anything. It’s not whatever crazy. And I found from interviewing so many people that the label is definitely a thing that you’re not alone about. But if you say I enjoy photography or I take pictures, are they good?

It doesn’t matter. I enjoy it. I’m doing it for me. I’m not doing it for your approval. And it brings you joy, and that’s great. And so, you’re not alone in that for sure.

Mary: Good.

John: And it’s actually 100% okay to be not amazing at something ’cause it’s just a hobby.

Mary: Well, and that’s just it. It’s a hobby. It’s something that brings me joy that I do outside of the office that allows me space to be myself, to create. Right? I think that people need to have some sort of creation in their lives. And we get caught up in this idea that it has to be perfect and that people will buy it and all of these other things. And that’s not what creation is. You know, creation is creating.

John: It doesn’t have to be a side hustle. Yeah. ‘Cause, I mean, I’ve had plenty of people “Well, you know, I don’t make any money at it.” Great. You’re not supposed to. It’s not your job.

Mary: Right?

John: Like there’s other dimensions to who you are. All those dimensions don’t have to make money. You know, you’re a parent. You’re a spouse. Are you making money that way? And if you are, it’s illegal.

Mary: If you are, let me know how that’s working out for you. I have questions.

John: Is that tax deductible?

Mary: Oh, God. Right? Are we writing this off? If you have to ask, no.

John: Right. Right. No, exactly. Exactly. But I think it’s great that you overcame that and were like, you know, “Hey, I’m gonna share it.” And nothing bad has happened. If anything, it’s been the opposite where it draws people in closer whether they’re photographers or not.

Mary: And sometimes, you don’t know what’s happening. It allows people a chance to ask. Right? Because sometimes it’s like trying to get to know somebody, figuring out what’s happening, where they’re at, what’s going on, or maybe they’re stuck on something and they can come in. And it’s like “Oh, well, what is this one?”

John: Right?

Mary: Actually, the one that I get a lot, especially with the moss right now, is that hanging the right way?

John: Well, who knows? It could be—

Mary: I don’t know.

John: How do you wanna hang it? Let’s hang it your way. Like I don’t care.

Mary: It was growing up from the ground. Now, it’s on my wall. So, it’s not how it’s supposed to be anyway.

John: Right? That’s so great. I mean, cause there’s no right answer, especially on art even. Yeah. It’s like I don’t—

Mary: Well, that’s just it.

John: It could be however you want. But that’s cool to hear that like people have come in with a work question, but then they leave with an “and” question, you know, related to you. You’re an accountant and the photography side of you. And so, lead with the photography side ’cause that’s a lot better way to start a conversation.

Mary: It is. And I’m in a new office now, so I joined Hansen House Company in December of last year. So still just as we’re coming back from COVID and getting to know everybody, it has been really useful to have this because they don’t know what my knowledge is. They don’t know if I’m gonna be able to answer the question or not. And this is one that at least gets us started on something. Right? Accountants hate to be wrong, and we really hate to seem like we don’t know something. So to come into somebody stranger’s office with a question about what it is that we’re supposed to know can be really intimidating. So this way, at least there’s something else to talk about.

John: That’s so true. Such a great point. And also, too, like your job title, I mean you’re a principal, you know. It’s like yikes. You know? And so, that’s intimidating. The title alone.

Mary: How hard is she gonna be? You know, what is she expecting? What is she like? I’m scary. I think people should just get used to it. Right?

John: Right? But then it’s like “No, it’s Mary. Just go talk to her. Ask her about her pictures.”

Mary: “You could talk to her. It’s fine.”

John: “It’s all good.”

Mary: It’s fine

John: She’s a real person. She’s got other things, you know. And so, you’ll get to the scary side in a minute, but lead with the pictures.

Mary: Right. Lead with the pictures. She’ll smile at you before she bites your head off.

John: Right? Not true. I don’t believe that for a second. You’re gonna bite the head off first and then— No. No.

Mary: Technically.

John: Yeah. Exactly.

Mary: Right. Let’s get it out of the way.

John: Right? But before the photography, which sounds like it’s someone new, were there other sides of you in your career that you would share or was the photography the thing that kind of cracked it open?

Mary: You know, photography was really kind of the thing that cracked it open. Before that, I read. That was kind of my big thing growing up. My mother would send me outside to play, and I would sit inside right by the screen door and read my book because technically it’s like I’m outside ’cause I’m getting fresh air.

John: Right. There’s a breeze.

Mary: There’s a breeze. There’s a breeze. And really, it’s just kind of been this exploration piece that has been new and that’s just kind of been fun. And to have this product, right, that makes me happy, that’s so easy. Before that, you know, I started off in big four and there was that idea that work is all you are and that’s it. You can’t be anything else. And in fact, if you are something else, you’re jeopardizing your relationships with your team. You’re letting them down because you’re not working.

John: Yeah, exactly.

Mary: So I think I let that mindset sink in until we came up here and then really had the opportunity to just say “You know what? That’s not who I am. I am more than that. I identify as more than accountant. I identify as a whole person.”

John: Yeah. Amen. And it’s so important. And do you feel a difference from pre-photography Mary to today?

Mary: Absolutely. I have better relationships with my clients. I have better relationships with my family. I like myself better because I’m allowing more of myself to be me. I think when we repress that and piece of us, we really missed out on who we are and being able to enjoy ourselves.

John: So true. And it’s scary how we do that to ourselves. You know? It’s just like I’m my own worst enemy. This is nuts. You know? And what’s even scarier is people that are like “Oh, I’ll get back to it.” It goes dormant and then it goes extinct. And then it’s like I forget what I used to love to do.

Mary: And then you struggle when somebody asks you “What do you love to do?” And you’re like “Well, I used to… Now, I… Right?” And then you get stuck back in that identity that what you do is who you are and that’s it. So then when you stop doing that, you don’t exist anymore.

John: Right, exactly. I mean, this is helping you retire. Yeah. But I mean, there’s so much cooler parts to the people around us and just asking about it, and finding out about it, and just caring. Like just have a genuine interest.

Mary: We get wrapped up in defining success by all of these external things. Right? Where are you at in your job? How much money are you making? All of those pieces. When in fact, we need to figure out what success looks like and then get there on our own. And success is so much more than just what we make, you know. It’s having those times and spending time with people you love and doing the things that you love to do. And when you can do that, even if your client fires you, you can still say that you’re successful because you’ve got all these other pieces.

John: Exactly. I love that. That’s so great. So great. What a great way to wrap it up. That’s awesome. So for everyone that listened past the melted milk dud in the bottom of the—

Mary: The malted, right, come on now.

John: The milk ball. Right. Sorry. Yeah. So there you go, everybody. That’s the candy at the bottom right there. That was so good. So good, Mary. And it was so fun having you be a part of this. But since I so rudely asked you with all those questions at the beginning, I feel like it’s only fair that we turn the tables and make this the first episode of The Mary McDonald podcast.

Mary: Excellent.

John: Right? So I’m all yours. Thanks for having me on as a guest.

Mary: John, thanks for joining me today.

John: Right?

Mary: I do have some get to know you questions. Doesn’t matter if I—

John: Oh, boy, here we go.

Mary: I know. Be ready. Be ready.

John: I’ve got seatbelts on. Hold on. Here we go.

Mary: It should be. All right. Movies. Watching them in the theater or at home?

John: Ah, wow. Yeah, that’s a good question. I’m gonna say at home. I feel like that now that at home has gotten— screens have gotten bigger and audio’s gotten better, it’s kind of the best without all the people around you talking or whatever they’re doing.

Mary: You are a previous accountant, aren’t you? “There’s people. Eww. Eww.”

John: I know the popcorn was made today also when I’m at home so like there’s that. So I guess at home. Plus then, you can hit pause, you can go to the bathroom, you can whatever. Like you get comfortable.

Mary: Right. You wear your pajamas. I got the dog with me.

John: Yeah. You take your shoes off and put your feet up in the theater, and they’re looking at you weird. It’s like “Wait, what’s wrong?” It’s like you act like you’ve been outside before. All right. All right.

Mary: All right. Favorite dinosaur.

John: Oh wow. That’s a great question. Favorite dinosaur. And my nephew Colin is gonna light me up for this ’cause he knows all of them. So I guess I would say probably the Velociraptor is pretty, pretty cool. Made famous by Jurassic Park of course. So that’s probably why. But it just seems like it’s one not to mess with.

Mary: Absolutely.

John: Pretty quick. And it’s nimble and I like that. That’s impressive. And it’s not the big T-Rex, like everybody says T-Rex. It’s more the one that brings the heat. It’s like, yeah, everyone’s scared of T-Rex, but you— Yeah, Velociraptor. Better watch out. Plus, it’s fun to say.

Mary: Right?

John: It’s just like “All right.” Imagine if you were a Veloci principal. Like how great will that be?

Mary: Right. I’m gonna have to figure this out. I’m like I have tiaras. Now, I have to figure out how to get like clothes.

John: Oh, right?

Mary: That would be good.

John: Just Veloci anything. Like I’m already in.

Mary: Veloci anything would be sweet. I know. You could do this.

John: Right?

Mary: All right. Ability to fly or be invisible?

John: Ah, yeah. That’s also a very good one. I guess the ability to be invisible. I’m not gonna be invisible all the time, but the ability to turn invisible when I would like to, like when I’m speaking at a conference and I haven’t spoken yet and everyone wants to meet me and they’re like “Oh, so what are you gonna speak on?” It’s like “I’m just gonna be invisible over here in the corner because I just watch.” Just watch. It will be a couple hours. Just watch. Like it’s just “Why do you need the preview? Just you’re gonna be there.”

So, yeah, I feel like the invisible ’cause there’s plenty of times where I’m just like “Ah, I just don’t really wanna go today.”

Mary: I don’t want people today.

John: Yeah. So I think invisible would be— I mean, flying would be cool, but we’re not gonna get greedy.

Mary: Right. I know. That’s fair. No, you get one.

John: Plus, I can fly now on airplanes. I can’t be invisible now.

Mary: True. Yeah. Technically, yes.

John: Technically, I like it. So I’m getting both. I’m getting both.

Mary: Wow. Look at you circumventing the rules. Nicely done.

John: Yeah. That’s why I was never in tax ’cause I would be in trouble.

Mary: Oh, Lord. All right. I need your past clients to call us.

John: I was immaterial difference guy. Immaterial difference.

Mary: Oh, that’s fine.

John: Like let’s just go home.

Mary: We got ‘ya. And then you’re stranded on a desert island. What book do you have with you?

John: Besides What’s Your “And”? ’cause that’s a pretty good one I heard.

Mary: Of course.

John: But no, no, I have two books that I really, really enjoy. One is The War of Art by Steven Pressfield. It’s so good. And then the other one that I enjoyed also that I recommend is The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks. The Big Leap. That’s also a good one. And then he has a follow-up one called The Genius Zone that I just actually read, so yeah. But The War of Art hands down. I read it every year. I wish I could read it more times a year. But The War of Art is so good. It’s more for creatives, but I feel like it applies to everyone anyway in some way. It’s a good read.

Mary: Well, we really all are creative. We just don’t allow ourselves to be.

John: In our own way. Exactly. So good, Mary. Well, thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? And I look forward to making it to Duluth some time and hanging out.

Mary: Absolutely. I’ll take you to the breweries around here.

John: There’s that too. All right. We can get some macro pictures of that stuff. Woo! Everyone listening, if you wanna see some of Mary’s pictures or connect with her on social media, her Twitter handle is Fire. Be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends. They get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.