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Welcome to Episode 344 of What’s Your “And”? Normally, the follow-up Friday edition. This is John Garrett and I wanted to just take a week off to say Happy Holidays! We made it. Hanukkah has happened. Christmas is today. New Year’s is next week. Thank goodness we made it. What a fun year on the show. We had such great guests this past year with “ands” like rollerblading, NASCAR, playing indoor soccer, jujitsu, volunteering, even two volunteer firefighters like, what?

So if you’re listening and you would like to share your “and” with everyone, don’t hesitate to reach out to me yet, whatsyourand.com. I’d love to have you on as a guest and share your story. Maybe it’s someone you know like an attorney, an engineer, an accountant, a banker or any other white collar nerd like me. The more we share these “ands”, the more normal it becomes and then we can shatter that stereotype of what it takes to be a successful professional because these dimensions to our lives that are outside of work, these “ands”, these hobbies, passions, interests and then other things like family, friends, faith, these dimensions are so crucial for our lives. I think that we’ve all realized that in the past nine to ten months of COVID. Before, it was important, but we didn’t always see it. But wow, did it come out and our “ands” are needed now more than ever.

I remember seeing when the pandemic started, someone had a meme on social media that said, “Apparently, my hobby is going to restaurants and bars” because they were all closed and now, they had nothing to do. Having those “ands” is really, really important so you don’t get sucked into all work and then burn out. Especially when you’re working from home, it’s hard to leave the work behind. It’s always there depending on how your house is set up or your apartment is set up. That computer is always there looking at you and you’re going to burn out. So you really, really need those “ands” not only to create those connections with coworkers and clients, but also just for yourself, just for that mental wellness piece of it.

Also, too, we found that if you build your culture from the outside in, in other words, that culture core that I talk about in the book, “What’s Your And?” that culture core is so important that the core of your organization’s culture is your people’s “ands”, those outside of work hobbies, passions, and interests. So shining a light on those and celebrating those and getting to know what those are is so, so important especially because we’ve been in each other’s homes now. On these video calls, you’ve had coworkers in your house and see you at 8:00 a.m. where you maybe haven’t showered and you’re wearing a sweatshirt, your kids are into homeschooling, and the dog is barking because you have a delivery being dropped off on your porch. It’s just chaos and you can’t put on this facade anymore of, “Look, I’ve got everything together. I’m an uber professional person and super slick and everything’s together.” It’s not. We’re all human. We’ve seen each other be human. So now that that’s out, please don’t let that go. Don’t let that leave. When you see somebody next time, “Hey, how’s your dog that we saw on the chat?” or your cat or whatever pet. What about the art hanging on their walls or the pictures? Things that you saw in their home just creates those genuine connections between each other that are so, so important.

For the podcast, some exciting news. The format is going to change just a little bit going forward. We’ll always be doing the Wednesday interviews in sharing people’s “ands”, but people seem to want a little more of me, I guess. So what I’ve learned from my research as well as some of the follow-ups that we’ve been doing, just to hear how the book has impacted workplace cultures because it’s really making a difference out there and it’s cool to see and hear about, and I’m the one hearing about it, so it’s only right that I share it with you guys as well.

If you don’t have the book yet, it’s available on Amazon, Indigo, barnesandnoble.com, a few other websites. Just in case you’re interested in buying 25 or more maybe for your clients or your team, there’s a form at whatsyourand.com so you can get discounted pricing from my publisher. It’s the least I can do to hook you up with that. Thank you so much to everyone who’s read it so far and been kind enough to leave those Amazon reviews. They’re so, so important just to keep it fresh in everyone’s minds and Amazon to keep liking it. Thank you so much for those.

Many of you have asked about the audio book version especially since you’re used to hearing me talk on here, so your wish has been granted. The audio book will be coming in the first half of 2021. I wish I had an exact date to share with you right now. It’s pending just like everything else is in the world, right?

The only thing not pending though is the end of 2020. Wow, what a hard year for everyone, each of us in a different way. We’re not all in this together necessarily. I don’t like that phrase, but we’re all in it because some of us had to work more than ever before. On the other hand, some of us were furloughed or laid off. Some of us had businesses just completely decimated. I’ll tell you what. Being a keynote speaker, I was on the front end of that. Maybe it’s your clients. Maybe it’s your friends. Maybe it’s your neighbors. It’s just really, really a hard year for all of us in a different way. I just hope that we could all agree that we don’t have to hear the word “pivot” ever again. Let’s just hope that that was the last time you hear it especially for the next year. Please, can we all just agree on that one thing, just pretty please, maybe just for me?

But Happy New Year! It’s just a week away and I just look forward to 2021, continuing to share this message, hearing how the book and the message is impacting you and making a difference where you work, and then sharing people’s stories. Again, if it’s you or someone you know that has a hobby or a passion, and it can be anything, let’s talk about it and share it and just shatter that stereotype. So if you haven’t already, please don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing those interesting stories each and every week. Now, a little more of my thoughts will be added and how this message applies to you and your workplaces.

Thanks again for sharing this podcast with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 343 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

I’m so excited to let everyone know that my book is out and it makes a perfect holiday gift. Christmas is two days away, so check out whatsyourand.com for all the details. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Book Depository, barnesandnoble.com, a few other websites. All the links are on that page. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s getting the book and leaving such nice reviews on Amazon, and for sharing how their cultures have changed because of it. It’s really cool to see. Please don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

This week is no different with my guest, Terrell Turner. He’s the co-founder of TL Turner Group and the host of the Business Talk Library Podcast. Now, he’s with me here today. Terrell, thanks so much for taking the time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Terrell: Absolutely. My pleasure.

John: Now, this is going to be awesome, super fun. I have my 17 rapid fire questions to get to know Terrell on a new level here.

Terrell: Let’s go for it.

John: All right. Here we go. I’ll start you out easy. Favorite color?

Terrell: Blue.

John: Nice. Mine, too. All right. We’re one for one. No, I’m teasing. There’s actually no right answers. How about a least favorite color?

Terrell: I would say pink.

John: Pink. Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. How about do you prefer more hot or cold?

Terrell: Cold.

John: Cold. Okay. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Terrell: Favorite actor, I would have to say Will Smith.

John: Will Smith. Solid answer. There you go. How about are you more of an early bird or a night owl? Early. Okay. How about chocolate or vanilla?

Terrell: I’ll go with vanilla.

John: Okay. Yeah. How about puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

Terrell: Crossword. Sudoku is just too complicated for me.

John: Okay. It’s how I look at tax returns. I’m like, “What? This is crazy.” There we go. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Terrell: Star Trek.

John: Star Trek. Okay. Your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Terrell: PC.

John: PC. Yeah, me too. Me, too. Your mouse then, right click or left click?

Terrell: Right click.

John: Right click. That’s where all the options are. There you go. Getting crazy. Oh, this is a fun one. Socks or shoes?

Terrell: Socks.

John: Socks. Okay. There you go. How about balance sheet or income statement?

Terrell: Income statement.

John: Income statement. That was just stupid. All right. We have five more. Oceans or mountains?

Terrell: Oceans. There’s something about the water.

John: Yeah. You’re an East Coast guy for sure. What do you eat for breakfast?

Terrell: Typical breakfast would be — it’d be a breakfast burrito either with eggs or bacon or some type of meat and eggs in it.

John: Yeah, there you go. That’s fantastic right there. How about a favorite number? I have to ask with the Finance Accounting background.

Terrell: I’ll just say seven. That’s the one that comes to mind.

John: That’s mine, too, man. It’s like sports-related, kind of, but who knows? It’s just a good number. I agree. How about my book being out, Kindle or real books? Real books. There you go. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Terrell: The favorite thing that I have, I would have to say — man, that’s a good one. Favorite thing I have, a physical thing? I would say right now, it’s my cellphone because there are so many different things that I can do with it. That’s probably the thing I use the most.

John: Okay. Fair enough. When you lose it, it’s like, “Ah! I can’t open my garage. I can’t do anything. I don’t even know how to call someone. I don’t know their number.” Totally, man. It’s insane how reliant we are on this thing. Also, how right at two years, it starts to go wonky and you need to get a new one. What do you know?

Terrell: I’m about at that point now.

John: Yeah, it’s insane. What a racket. Let’s talk content creation. I’m sure the cellphone probably comes in handy for some of that sometimes even, but how did you get started doing that?

Terrell: For me, it was probably in college where I played around with it because even going through some of the accounting in the business classes, whenever we’d have to do presentations, I was always bored with just getting up there, people pointing to their PowerPoint. Some of my professors said, “Okay, you guys can use a little bit of creativity” and I was like, great! In one presentation, what I did is I set the classroom up like it was a talk show.

John: Nice! There you go.

Terrell: I got some of my classmates to participate or whatever, and I did my presentation in the form of a talk show. I think there was another one I did where I had to do an analysis on Nike or whatever. I just came up with this analogy of, well, what if I change up the classroom and make my speech like I’m doing a safety briefing on an airline? Everybody’s strapped in. People get seatbelts. I put on a captain’s hat.

It’s just bringing that creativity in to where when I started working — I started off in public accounting and getting back into, okay, I was doing things very structural, but there’s that creative side of me that wants to do something a little different. So creating content whether it be for social media or just for different friends that have questions about different stuff, content creation became my way of expressing that creativity.

John: That’s awesome because yeah, the content still gets delivered. You’re still doing the presentation. It’s just in a different way. That pattern interrupt, I believe, makes people actually listen for once instead of just zoning out. You’re up there with a talk show. You’re a little bit of creativity. How about a lot? I’ve got a talk show and we’re going to do it Maury style. “Are you pregnant or not? Who’s the daddy?” No, no, I’m kidding.

But that’s such a great idea because who cares? Who cares? The whole goal is present information so people listen and absorb it. It doesn’t matter how you present it. The way that they absorb it the most is the most effective way. I have to believe you nailed it, so that’s super cool, man. Have you always been creative, outside the box kind of person? I mean it within reason because you’re still in accounting. It’s like a red dye instead of a —

Terrell: I will say it was something for me that kind of developed a little bit more over time because for me, over time, I got frustrated with I guess just being bored trying to learn different stuff whether it was accounting or whether it was English, Math or whatever it was. I got bored very easily. I’m like, there has to be a way to bring a little bit more entertainment into this. So for me, it developed more and more over time by me just getting frustrated with being bored.

John: Yeah. I can relate 100% because it’s like, there’s got to be a better way. That’s pretty cool, man. Then it went from college into the real world then. Now, it’s mostly the podcast or are you doing other things as well? Did it go straight from — is that the first thing you went into or were there other steps along the way?

Terrell: I went quiet on it for a little while because at one point, I felt like okay, all right, this doesn’t really fit the world that I’m in. There’s an expectation, but I just got to a point where I’m just like, you know what, there’s a bunch of people around me that aren’t getting what we’re trying to learn. Let me just bring it back. I started doing videos, just like I said, recording videos of just talking about different business topics. Then I started to branch it off with a podcast of just interviewing other people.

Now, I guess since so many people have seen the content, now people reach out to me about different subject matters. They’re like, “Hey, this is my audience. I need some ideas about how to do this.” I’ve worked with some people that are writing children’s books like, “Hey, how do I get my message across?” because that’s what they realized. They were like, “Regardless of what you talk about, I can’t even stand accounting, but I actually enjoy your videos.”

John: Right. That’s awesome. That’s a huge compliment. That’s the people that email me about the book. They’re like, “I’m not a reader, but I just accidentally read it cover to cover.”

Terrell: Yup.

John: Mission accomplished. Done. The AICPA should hire you to recruit people. Then all of a sudden, they get in there and they’re like, “Wait. This isn’t what Terrell said. This is not at all what the brochure says.” That’s super cool to hear, man. Yeah, it’s just bringing your personality to it. Do you prefer the video to the audio?

Terrell: To me, it’s gotten to the point where both are kind of the same. I have no preference over one or the other. Now, I will say doing the video takes a bit more work and editing. So I will say time-wise, the audio is much easier to do.

John: Yeah, definitely. I just have a face for podcasts. That’s why I’m nailing it. Especially when you’re doing interviews, you have to have guests that show up that also look good as well as sound good. I mean good video quality I guess is the way I meant to say that before we get all Twitter happy in the world.

That’s super cool and cool to hear. That’s got to be really rewarding when people not only watch it, but then say that it made a difference in what they’re thinking or they actually absorbed the information.

Terrell: Yup, I agree. It is very rewarding just to hear people that don’t have a similar background say, “Man, I’ve learned so much from you” because even on LinkedIn, I’ve had executives that aren’t in the finance and accounting field reach out to me to say, “Hey, I love what you’re doing. This really helped me out a lot.” I think there was one where there’s a guy who was in finance. He said, “Seeing you do your video…” He got laid off from his job. He’s back in the job market for the first time in 15 years. He was like, “Seeing you get out there and really just be yourself,” it gave him the confidence he needed to go back into the job market. I’m like, I did not expect that to be the outcome.

John: That’s awesome, man. You never know who’s listening or who’s watching or how you’re able to make an impact. That’s fantastic, really fantastic. Do you feel like this at all translates — of course, you’re talking about finance topics, but the skill and the ability to create this content, do you feel like that translates to work at all?

Terrell: I think it definitely does. When I’m working with a client and I’m trying to pretty much just tell them, “Hey, here’s the story that your financial statements are saying,” I think about it like when — I like watching comedians and really understanding how they take you from just a common phrase to a killer punch line. If you watch it, it’s like they’re taking you on a journey and you end up where you’re just laughing hysterically. I think about the same way even in business when I’m talking to a client or whether I’m talking to the Board of Directors. My goal is to take you on a journey through the information so that at the end of it, you get my punch line and you walk away with some value.

John: Exactly. We can all laugh at your negative accounts receivable or whatever. “You’re bankrupt.” I’m kidding, man, but a punch line in a sense that it’s not a joke punch line. This is where we’re trying to get to and where I need you to get to. As a comedian, you see a picture and you need to paint that picture for the person that’s listening, the audience whether it’s one or it’s a hundred or a thousand. You have to paint that picture for them and get them to where you already are. That’s exactly what you’re doing and that’s cool, man. That’s exactly it. That’s skill you’re exercising outside of work so then when it’s go time, it’s like, “I do this regularly. We could do this.” That’s really cool.

When you were doing some of this, before you created TL Turner group, was it something that you shared at work some or did you just keep it on the down low?

Terrell: Well, I kept it strictly on LinkedIn because I just kept doing the videos there on LinkedIn. As I started to connect with more people from work on LinkedIn, what ended up happening was actually, the CEO came to me because he saw it. The CEO and I guess the Chief Sales Officer, they were the founders of the company. They saw it and he was like, “Hey, I saw your video.” In my head, I’m thinking like, “What does that mean? That was all?”

John: “You’ve got to say more.” There’s another line there whether it’s good or bad.

Terrell: So the Chief Sales Officer, he saw it. Him and I were talking and he was like, “Hey, what’s the deal with the videos?” I was like, “It’s something I started doing.” He was like, “I really like it. It’s really good stuff. Me and the CEO are talking about it and it’s really good. You’ve got to do some of that stuff here.” I was like, “Oh!” That’s the rest of the story.

John: There we go. Okay. Thank goodness. That’s really cool because what are the odds that the CEO talks to you about something anyway? Typically, we have this mentality of if someone high up comes to talk to us, we’re in trouble. It’s like the principal in high school. The principal never talks to you if you did something well. That’s neat because then it breaks down that hierarchy to where you’re not just a number or an analyst or whatever. It’s Terrell. “Go talk to Terrell” and vice versa. That CEO and sales executive are just regular people, too. That’s neat. Did you end up doing something for the company?

Terrell: I didn’t do anything specifically for the company, but I took some of the topics that — let’s say for the sales team, we were trying to navigate some changes in accounting standards or whatever. What I like to do is just take something that’s completely unrelated but people understand whether it’s playing football or whatever, just explain the analogy and then connect the dots. People are like, “Oh, I get it now. It makes sense.” So I started doing some videos on the type of topics like some of the metrics that we were watching like why would it be important. I started doing videos on that.

What I noticed is more and more of the employees of the company started watching, responding, and then it started just expanding that way, so more and more people started really engaging with the content.

John: That is incredible, man. So then people that are in other departments that had no idea who you were before now know your name.

Terrell: Yup.

John: That’s pretty neat. I had a similar thing except for it was an Onion kind of newsletter that I did every month that made fun of everything. Yours was way more productive, but either way, you have people that remember you and know you now. There are even people that worked with you that were like, “I had no idea that you had this skill or this talent” type of thing. Do you feel like places where you worked where people didn’t know, was that better or worse? In what way was it different to the people that did know and were able to talk to you about those outside-of-work interests?

Terrell: I think for the people that did know, it made it a lot easier to develop relationships with people because I think no matter what capacity whether you’re running your own business or whether you’re working for another company, relationships are going to be a very big part of how you progress in that. Like I said, if you need to execute on a decision, you’re probably going to need the cooperation of other people. If they like you then hey, things will go well. If they don’t like you —

John: There’s going to be work.

Terrell: As more people started seeing it, I think, and more people started finding out about it, I noticed it was so much easier to just have a casual conversation with people. If I use an analogy of let’s say about Star Trek or whatever, someone who I didn’t know like Star Trek, we were able to have a conversation about it because they’re like, “Hey, he likes Star Trek, too. We could talk about it” or something like that.

John: Yeah, it’s such an icebreaker there. It’s so weird how just having a conversation about something outside of work is just supernatural. As soon as you start talking work stuff, it gets weird in a hurry and I don’t know why, but it does. So starting with that outside-of-work interest whether you like Star Trek or not, it’s still — I know Terrell likes Star Trek. “Hey, I saw this thing about Star Trek” and then it’s probably Star Wars and you’re like, “Oh, now I’ve got to explain it again.” That’s neat to hear, just those relationships. Yeah, work is easier when you actually get to know each other, which unfortunately, no one ever really tells us anywhere, but yeah, it’s so true. It’s so true.

How much do you feel like it’s on an organization to create that environment? It sounds like where you were, you share these passions, and as a matter of fact, don’t just talk about them. Go use them to do something for the company versus how much is it on the individual to maybe just create that little circle amongst themselves if the culture doesn’t give you permission, if you will.

Terrell: In the environment we live in, because for some strange reason, it almost seems uncomfortable or people aren’t sure that they can really be themselves or talk about something other than work. I think companies, they do have a responsibility, I guess, to at least start the ball rolling in that direction. One of the companies I was at, what they started doing is the HR department encouraged people to — I guess they had this little randomized system where it put people who want to participate, put their names in and it will pair you with someone, and you just go get coffee with them for like 15 minutes.

John: That’s awesome.

Terrell: It just paired you with some random person. So you go get coffee and you realize, “Wow, we have a lot in common. I would have never talked to this person before,” but I think just having some tool like that to just start the ball rolling. But then I think it really plays big for the actual individual to have, I think, more responsibility to actually just have the conversation. Just start initiating that and move out of what we think is the acceptable norm and just really start to get to know people for who they are.

John: Now, that’s such a great example. I love that so much because it not only encourages it to happen, but it’s giving you permission. It’s like, “Look. HR says we have to get coffee.” That’s 15 minutes we’re not working. So at least at that, it’s a win. You’re going into it winning, but then you get to meet someone and know someone and they’re in a different department and a different building and a different whatever. It’s like, wow, this is cool. Who knows when you have to interact with that department again? “Now, we’re friends. I’ll just go ask my new friend” type of thing. That’s such a great example that everyone can do tomorrow. Well, it’s Christmas Eve, but still, tomorrow.

That’s a great example and really cool, but I agree with you. It’s on the individual because so many people sit around waiting for permission. It’s like, well, you’ve got to jump in too and pull your side of it. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that’s like, “Hey, I’ve got a hobby, but no one cares” or “It has nothing to do with my job?”

Terrell: I would definitely say from my hobby of creating content, when you start putting yourself out there, a lot of people have fear about, “If I put myself out there, people are going to find out about it. They’re going to look at me and say I’m not working as hard because I’m doing my hobby.” That was one of the things that even some people told me when I first started creating video. They’re like, “Well, you want to be careful how much you share that because then people may question your ability at work.” I was like, “You know what? Forget that. I’m just going to do it.”

John: Good for you, man. Good for you.

Terrell: I think that when you really start to put serious energy into the hobbies or things you like whether it’s talking about sports or whether it’s skateboarding or whether it’s cooking, whatever it may be is when you really start to find something you enjoy doing. I think there are so many transferable skills that will be taken back to what you do to where I believe you will become better at your day job when you really start to take your hobbies and appreciate them and enjoy the journey because you’re going to learn so much about yourself. You’re going to learn so much about your craft and learn so much about the skills that you have that you weren’t able to use any other way.

John: Yeah. Wow. That was it. The podcast is over. No more episodes. That’s as good as it gets, man. No, you nailed it. Exactly. Because at the very least, it humanizes you, but you know it the best. It’s a skill that then you’re able to use at work to make you better at your job. So either way, you’re being better at your job. That’s awesome to hear that that’s been your experience as well. That’s super cool.

I don’t know why it is either. Just in our heads, you were just like me where it’s like, “Well, forget that. This is what I do.” It’s not like it’s illegal or a detriment to the company or whatever. It’s what I love to do. Kudos to you for pushing the naysayers aside. Who cares? Good things happen. Meanwhile, those naysayers might be completely forgettable. The CEO remembers who you are. I guarantee it. There are a lot of people that he or she doesn’t remember unfortunately, and that’s just the way it works. Good for you, man. This has been awesome. So much fun.

Before I wrap this up, it’s only fair, I feel, that I allow you to question me since I so rudely peppered you with questions in the beginning. It’s another episode of The Terrell Turner Podcast. It’s has nothing to do with his Business Talk Library because this is much less professional, but here we go, Terrell. Fire away.

Terrell: All right. I want to ask you, who’s your favorite college football team?

John: Oh, Notre Dame. I don’t have to think about it. Hands down.

Terrell: Awesome. I want to hear about that. I saw a post that you recently did where you had a bear costume on. You’ve got to give us the backstory.

John: Okay. Yeah. I was hosting a virtual CEO forum. It was 800 CEOs and 14 states and five countries, I’m pretty sure. They had the CEO of Insperity, a huge, giant company. He actually created it. Now, it’s billions of dollars big.

Terrell: Wow.

John: With a B. He did a keynote piece and then there was some workshop stuff, but they had a break. Coming out of the break, they wanted me to also do something funny. When you have CEOs, it’s kind of like — so I interviewed 20 or so CEOs and just asked them a series of questions. Only really two of them I was interested in. The other ones were just to soften them up. Then it was kind of like, “If there was a product that made being a CEO better, what would it do?” All the answers I got were hilarious. “I wish that I could have just a bunch of hats because I’m always having to wear a different hat. So then everyone will know which hat I’m wearing. Then they can not talk to me because I’m wearing that hat” or “A headband so I could read people’s minds.”

Of course, the next guy is like, “Whatever that’s not a mind reading thing because I don’t want to know what my people are thinking unless I can read my dog’s mind” or a magic wand. Somebody was like, “I wish I could just shut up so I could not interrupt my people when they’re asking me questions because I already know what the answer is.” The last one was feelings because somebody was like, “I don’t feel the feelings, so I need someone to tell me what feelings are.” Well, that sounds terrible.

It was kind of a Saturday Night Live version where I played some of the video pieces, and then it came back to me with CEO buddy. So I was CEO buddy and I had a onesie bear costume. I was wearing eight hats with a headband and a magic wand then I had duct tape so you could shut up while your people are talking, and then the bear because I feel all the feelings. It was completely ridiculous. It was silly and funny, but it was about the CEOs. So in the chat, people were like, “Oh my God, this is hilarious.” It’s exactly what we talked about earlier with you. I could have stood there and just told them about depressed stuff, but do it in a creative way. That’s definitely one of the two things that they’re going to remember from the CEO forum, was the freaking weirdo with the bear costume. Mission accomplished.

Terrell: Now, I would say the last question is when you think about all of the presentations you’ve done, what’s been one of the wildest, creative approaches you’ve taken?

John: Oh, that would be pretty high on the list. I think almost all of them, I come at them in a different way, which makes the audience engaged. Typically, I show one of my music video parodies up front to be like, “Here’s the preview.” “Oh, this is different. I should watch.” Then I come out up top with some comedy and then some stuff about the group, about the people there. So then it’s, “Oh, this isn’t just a cookie cutter presentation. This is for us.” So then they know like, “Oh, wow, he did his homework. We should probably pay attention. This is different. Plus, maybe he’s going to say my name. I better listen to what he says about me,” that type of thing.

Comedy-wise, probably my favorite one, it was a finance group in Bermuda. I’m sure they did everything shady, but they were so cool. It was such a great audience because it was people from the UK, people from South Africa, people from the islands plus Canada. It was international-type people. People from — well, I didn’t know this, but there were people from — they were from Ethiopia. I did a joke about I just ran a marathon, half marathon, and I found out I’m not the very fast runner because the winner was already back in Kenya, and they jumped up. I thought they were going to fight me. It was like five dudes. They were just excited that anyone said any country near them and it was hilarious. Oh my God, it’s so funny. In America, someone’s going to be offended at that joke. They were like, “Yes! Oh my gosh! This is amazing” because it’s not offensive at all. It was true. I’m really slow and the winner was from Kenya. These are facts, people.

Terrell: I think that is hilarious. My wife was born in Kenya, so she’s half Kenyan, half Nigerian. We joke about that all the time. Whenever there’s a marathon, I always tell her, “There’s no point in watching. We know who’s going to win.”

John: Exactly. Your cousin’s going to win. Everybody knows. What’s even hilarious is I went to Kenya. The Ugali, I think it’s called, it’s like cornmeal kind of mashed potatoes, cornmeal type of thing, it’s funny because it’s only really in the Maasai Mara — those are the runners. They’re all tall and lean and whatever, but most of the Kenyans I saw, they’re not running anywhere. It’s because they eat that. And because I ate it, I was like, oh, man, I don’t want to run at all. I thought this was going to give me super energy and I was like, oh my gosh. It’s super funny. But it is cool to just interact with different cultures and also see how they perceive jokes are just jokes. There’s no agenda behind it. It’s just funny, and then next joke, here we go type of thing, which is cool. That was really refreshing. Yeah, it’s super fun.

This has been great, Terrell. I really appreciate you being a part of What’s Your “And”? Thanks so much, man.

Terrell: Hey, no problem.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Terrell in action or get links to his content or connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button to the anonymous research survey about corporate culture and buy the book. I’m telling you, it’s good.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 342 of What’s Your “And”? Follow-Up Friday Edition. This is John Garrett and each Friday, I’m following up with a guest who had been on the show a few years ago to hear what’s new with their passions outside of work and also hear how this message has impacted them since we last talked.

I’m so excited. My book is out. You can order it on Amazon, Indigo, barnesandnoble.com, a few other websites. If you’re interested in buying 25 or more maybe for your clients or your team, there’s a form at whatsyourand.com so you can get discounted pricing from my publisher. I’m happy to hook you up with that for sure. Thank you so much to everyone who’s reading it and been kind enough to leave those Amazon reviews. It’s been really cool to see how much of a difference it’s made. Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

This Follow-Up Friday is no different with my guest, John Bly. He’s the managing partner of the South Atlantic region for Aprio. Now, he’s with me here today. John, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

John B: John, thanks for having me. I’m looking forward to having a few laughs and share some fun here over the next little bit.

John G: For sure, man. In Episode 152 two years ago, it does feel like way, way longer. I don’t even know if that’s even a phrase. It’s hard to believe I wrote a book by saying way longer, but anyway, I’m just excited to have you back. I have these rapid fire questions. I have seven that I didn’t ask the first time that maybe I should have, now that I think about it.

John B: It’s 2020 and it’s a whole new world, so two years ago is like a decade ago. So, rapid fire away.

John G: That’s true. Here we go. If you had to choose, Harry Potter or Game of Thrones?

John B: Harry Potter.

John G: Okay. All right. This one’s a tricky one. Brownie or ice cream?

John B: Ice cream. But for some reason, I never got into brownies.

John G: Okay. All right. Fair enough. What’s a typical breakfast? If you say ice cream, super bonus points.

John B: Typical breakfast is a bowl of cereal and a banana.

John G: Okay, healthy. Look at you. Good for you. I know you travel quite a bit. That’s what we talked about before. Would you say planes, trains, or automobiles? Also a good movie.

John B: “You’re going the wrong way.” “How do you know which way I’m going? I’m not going the wrong way.”

John G: Right.

John B: Planes or trains, definitely not automobiles. Either plane or train is good.

John G: Yeah. All right. Since my book is out, are you more Kindle, real book, or Audible?

John B: Real book. I like to be able to touch it and feel it and make notes in it.

John G: Yeah, and I super appreciated you being part of the launch team, man. Thank you again for that. All right, two more. How about a favorite animal, any animal at all?

John B: I’ll say dog just because I like to give hugs and cats run the other way.

John G: Right. There you go. The last one, this is an important one. Toilet paper roll, over or under?

John B: Over. I used to be an under. My wife didn’t like it. I’m an over now.

John G: You don’t have to sleep on the couch tonight. Good for you, man. Good for you. That’s impressive. Well, I remember back when we chatted a couple of years ago, it’s world travel and those cool pictures from Australia, New Zealand, Asia and all the cool places you went even with your family and stuff, which was awesome. So in the last couple of years, has travel still been a thing for you guys?

John B: Yeah, it’s still a huge passion. The kids have been everywhere basically. The only place they haven’t been that they remind me fairly regularly is Antarctica, and they haven’t been to parts of Asia, so they want to get there. Post-pandemic, that’ll definitely be high on the list. I don’t know when we’re going to make it to Antarctica, but Asia is on the list for sure.

John G: Yeah. Have you done Antarctica without them?

John B: I have not. I know some people who have done speaking gigs, so maybe that could be on your list.

John G: In Antarctica. Those penguins are unruly. They’re just brutal.

John B: Yup. It’s one of those things on people’s bucket list, to speak on all seven continents. They’ll go for free, right? They’ll pay their own way just to say they did it.

John G: Right. Exactly. But even in the last nine months, travel obviously has been a little bit tricky, but you guys have still made it happen because that passion is very real.

John B: It is. We did our best to stay “quarantined” for a couple of months, and then as it looked like this thing wasn’t going to be a couple of months and it was going to be longer, the passion in our life had to continue. So the end of June on literally less than two weeks’ notice, we booked an RV. By the way, we’ve never been in an RV before in our lives.

John G: Nice.

John B: We booked an RV. I live in Charlotte, North Carolina. We booked an RV. For those travel enthusiasts, the best place to rent an RV is Phoenix, Vegas, or Denver. For some reason, they have a hundred times more than any other RV outlets in the country to rent.

John G: Okay. Good to know since I live in Denver, so maybe I need to hook myself up with one of these. All right.

John B: So we rented an RV, also didn’t know anything about them. Apparently, there’s a website like an Airbnb that you can actually rent somebody else’s RV.

John G: Oh, okay.

John B: It was half the price of a corporate one. The family of five spent 31 days roaming the West. The only deal my wife and I had — she’s a saint. The only deal we had upfront was Daddy has to work, so that means if I want to enjoy the sights and the sounds and do all the cool things then she has to drive the whole time, so I actually never even started the RV.

John G: Oh, what? You had a personal driver. That’s impressive. You know what, that’s a fair trade-off for the toilet paper. I think that’s fair. I think that’s totally fair.

John B: We could do seven or ten days and I could be totally disconnected, but if we’re going to do 31, I’ve got to be connected. You can appreciate this. I even led a webinar from the back of the RV with my wife driving. I had four screens set up. It was pretty cool.

John G: That’s impressive, man. That’s really cool. Also, that passion is very real and you can’t put that on the side for that long type of a thing, and there’s a workaround. There’s always a way and you made it happen, which is super cool.

John B: I agree. If you’re that passionate about something, there has to be a way, right? Now, we did it as safe as we possibly could. We were staying in the RV and we did it all outdoors. The last time we were together, we traveled the world. This was our travel through the US. We hit a whole bunch of states that certainly the kids hadn’t been to and a few that my wife and I hadn’t been to, so tons of national parks, a positive because we’re all looking for positives in 2020. We were in Yellowstone. One of the advantages of the pandemic, they don’t have large tour buses because nobody’s taken large tour buses. So the sightseeing, it was way less crowded and there was no big buses in front of it. It was perfect.

John G: That’s awesome, man. Yeah, that is a great idea. Was Yellowstone like a highlight or was there something that was also equally cool or fun?

John B: Yeah, Yellowstone was definitely my highlight. The kids were torn between the Grand Canyon and Yellowstone. We spent four days in the Grand Canyon, which was really cool. I had been to the Grand Canyon before, so while it’s absolutely stunning and amazing, I had been there before, so not quite as high on my list. We went to Rocky Mountain National Park. There was some cool dinosaur stuff we did that I didn’t even know existed in the US.

John G: Right. Yeah, just a little bit west of Denver. Yeah, absolutely, man. That is nutty up there because my nephew’s way into dinosaurs, so they bring him up there. He’s six.

John B: You don’t have to be six to love dinosaurs. I love dinosaurs too, John. What are you saying here?

John G: No, I’m just saying he’s way into it. He knows more about dinosaurs than I ever did, and he’s six. I’m like, holy crap, I’m an idiot. His favorite dinosaur is one I can’t even say. How is that? But it is cool, man. That’s awesome. So did you drive all the way from North Carolina then?

John B: The most honestly thing we did, we needed to get on a plane.

John G: But again, there’s no one on planes either.

John B: Correct, so we flew to Arizona, rented the RV. I did a round trip from Phoenix, 31 days, about 6500 miles, and it was awesome. We hit it all really with seriously less than two weeks to plan. You could tell that the summer was going to be slow compared to what we’re used to, so we said let’s find something that fits us. Travel is definitely that passion, so how do we do it in a way that is still a lot of fun? Yeah, I definitely wouldn’t take it back. It was an amazing experience.

John G: That’s so fun. Plus, two weeks’ notice, one, you guys are avid travelers anyway. But two, when you’re driving, it’s super easy. You pull out the map or go on the internet and you’re like, “Hey, this is just an hour that way. Let’s go.” “Okay, cool,” just being nimble on your feet. That’s a great example for your kids as well to see that.

John B: It was and it was a totally different type of experience than we had ever done because you’re right, we did have to be nimble. We were headed out of Idaho towards California to spend the last five days down there in California line, and it really wasn’t open. Ironically, we’re pursuing this and it’s still not really open. We really couldn’t get in to California, so we pivoted and we spent a bunch more time in Utah instead. It taught some life lessons about being a little bit nimble and being creative and just living in the moment. The kids all really enjoyed it and it got them out of the stress of being home and doing all that stuff that happens in 2020.

John G: Right. Yeah, what a cool story and something that all of you will remember forever. That’s awesome, man. That’s super cool. Do you feel like people are sharing their hobbies and passions more now than they did a couple of years ago when we first talked?

John B: I do think so. I’m an avid golfer. The club that I’m a member of, there were 6000 more rounds through the end of August at the club than there had been ever in any year.

John G: Oh my goodness, and that’s only in eight months.

John B: Yeah, so I think people are definitely trying to find — they’re having — what I’ll say is more free time because a lot of people aren’t commuting back and forth. A lot of people are not having the types of social calendars that they historically had. And so they’re filling it with the passions that they’re pretty strong about. I hope that people are. If not then they’re having a worse 2020 than I am. That’s for sure.

John G: Right. Yeah. The other thing too is with all these video calls that we’ve had, we’ve had coworkers in our homes now, so they see the things on the walls or the painting or whatever you have in the background and ask about that. It’s been cool to see how this message is even more relevant in the last nine months where the band aid was just straight ripped off, where you can’t put on the facade in the office anymore. You’re at home. The kids need to get home-schooled. They can’t log on. The Amazon deliveries come in. The dog is going nuts. It’s just crazy and that’s life and that’s who we are. We’re all just human, so it’s been neat to see how it’s played out for sure.

John B: I think there are some people who found some new passions, too. For whatever reason that I can’t even think of, maybe there was something. Certainly, peloton is an example of people who have found their passion in exercise that maybe didn’t have it before.

John G: That is an excellent example where everyone else is doing it, so I guess I need to jump on, too, but then you find out it’s also healthy and it’s fun and all that. Yeah, that is true, a lot of new things. I think a lot of it is we just tell ourselves not to do something. My wife, she has always been really creative but let it slip, just wasn’t doing it as much, and then just got into painting. People are actually buying her paintings. They’re really good. I’m like, what? This is awesome. Yeah, it’s just cool to see her just light up from that because she has a different energy now from being able to do your passions, which is cool. So to everybody listening, just do it. Do you have any encouragement for people listening that maybe think, “My passion, no one’s going to care about” or “It has nothing to do with my job, so why talk about it?”

John B: Oh, definitely. I think in 2020, I think that people have shared more of their passions with other people and that everyone is looking for — well, maybe everyone’s an exaggeration, but almost everyone is looking for where they belong. Where’s their tribe? What is the group that also believes or thinks or does what I like? I think that that’s super helpful when you think about going from community building, which is something that the human race generally likes, to then being more socially distant, et cetera. Then finding a way, whether that’s online or whatever, to be able to find people with similar passions really is something that I think they ought to dive in and chase.

John G: Absolutely. Then if some of those people have the similar passions that you work with then that’s extra magic. The engagement is so much higher. It just works better in the end. So not only have it, but share it is a huge key. That’s awesome, man, so cool. It’s been so fun catching up with you, John. But it’s only fair since I started out the episode with my rapid fire questions that I turn the tables and make this the first episode of The John Bly Podcast. Thanks so much for having me on as a guest. I appreciate it.

John B: Absolutely. I heard there was an AICPA conference recently.

John G: Yeah, just last week.

John B: There may have been some interesting banter that you led. Do you mind giving a little insight as to the humor that was shown?

John G: Oh my goodness. Yeah, the Digital CPA Conference, they had me kick it off the night before the conference was, so I did an hour of a little bit of standup. Then we did like a Family Feud game, which was really fun and interactive. I always ask these open-ended questions kind of Family Feud style, and one of the questions was besides your significant other, name something you bring along on a date. Most of the answers were taken. One lady said a condom, and it was hilarious because I’m pretty positive that a lot of people never thought that that word would ever be said at an AICPA event, but leave it to me to make that magic happen. I, of course, quickly pivoted and turned it into risk management, which seems a little more user-friendly for the AICPA crowd or CPA.com crowd. Yeah, it was super fun. Everybody that was there had a lot of good laughs and all the nice comments. It was really, really fun to see.

John B: What’s the most random — you’re now an author. What’s the most random experience you’ve had with it whether somebody was like, “Oh my gosh, I read your book” and it wasn’t like the epiphany moment, but something totally random, or the strangest comment you’ve received about it.

John G: I would say that probably from parents who had their kids just leave for college, how much the book applied to them, maybe the stay-at-home parents that their identity was lacrosse mom or whatever, soccer dad, the parent that stays home that helps take care of the kids. So now that the kids went away to college, it’s, “Well, what’s my identity now? What are my passions?” and just realizing that it applies to not just corporate professionals. It applies to just everybody really. That was really something that hit me. I was like, wow, this is a lot bigger than I thought it was. That was cool where it was like, wow, I didn’t even realize how much it would resonate with that. Even people that are doctors, they’re never really taught how to manage people. They’re taught medicine until they’re 30 and then it’s, “Okay. Now, go run a business and be in charge of it.” I think it’s helpful for them as well. It’s such a simple thing to just ask people what their “and” is, what lights you up, and then care about them. I guess that would be probably the most random thing where I did not see that come in at all.

John B: That’s awesome. Well, it’s great that you’re making that sort of impact on people’s lives. It’s probably very rewarding to hear the feedback as well.

John G: Yeah, it is. Well, it’s also rewarding that people are reading it. That’s why you spend two years writing a book. I wrote it in a very conversational way so then it’s easy to read. It’s not a cumbersome task where it’s like, “Oh, this is hard.” No. It’s actually — some people have even said they’ve read it twice already, which is kind of cool. There you go.

John B: Last question. The vaccine happens and you’re totally clear to do whatever. What’s the first thing you’re going to do 2021?

John G: Wow. The first thing —

John B: And no dollar limit. Pretend it’s all free.

John G: Probably, honestly, this might be — this isn’t super exciting, but my parents live in an assisted living home here, so they’ve been completely locked down. I’ll probably take them out to dinner because it’s hard on us, but on them, it’s got to be even — I can’t even imagine. So probably just take my parents out to dinner would be the first thing, and then go to Antarctica so I could tell your kids I’ve been before they did. I’m kidding, man. This has been so much fun, John. Thanks so much for taking time to be a part of What’s Your “And”?

John B: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

John G: Awesome. Everybody, if you want to see some pictures of John on his adventures or connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button to the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to get the book. It makes an excellent holiday present, if I say so myself.

Thanks again for subscribing to the podcast on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 341 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work.

I’m so excited to let everyone know that my book is published. You could check out whatsyourand.com for all the details. It’ll make a really awesome Christmas gift. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Book Depository, barnesandnoble.com, a few other websites. All the links are on that page. I can’t say how much it means that everyone is getting the book and leaving such nice reviews on all the sites and sharing how their cultures are changing because of it. Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

This week is no different with my guest, Rubik Yeriazarian. He’s a Forensic Accounting and Litigation Support Principal at Briggs & Veselka in Houston, Texas. Now, he’s with me here today. Rubik, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Rubik: Thanks for having me, John. I can think of no better way to spend my PTO than talking to you about accounting and hobbies.

John: There you go. I don’t even know what charge code — yes, you have to PTO this. Oh, man! You know what? I might just talk to Briggs & Veselka. We’ll see what we can do. We can get you these 30 minutes back. There you go. Yeah, but I start out with my rapid fire questions.

Rubik: Okay.

John: Yeah, so here we go. Do you prefer more hot or cold?

Rubik: Hot.

John: Hot. Okay. Well, Houston, that makes sense. How about a favorite color?

Rubik: Green.

John: Green. Nice. How about a least favorite color?

Rubik: Oh man. Yellow.

John: Yellow. Okay.

Rubik: Yeah, yellow. It’s like waffling in between red or green. What’s up with yellow? Make a decision.

John: Right. Okay. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Rubik: I really like Adam Sandler mainly because of the “You Don’t Mess with the Zohan” movie, just a personal favorite of mine just from all the gratuitous use of hummus throughout it.

John: Nice. Okay. Oh, that’s so fantastic. He’s also a really nice guy, which makes it cool. Would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

Rubik: I used to be night owl, but I have a one-year-old and a three-year-old, so more of an early bird now. If I’m awake, it’s going to be more in the morning. I tend to pass out on the couch by ten o’clock if it’s getting late.

John: Yeah, I hear you, man. Yeah, that would be tough. How about puzzles? Sudoku or crossword?

Rubik: Crossword.

John: Crossword. Okay. How about chocolate or vanilla?

Rubik: Chocolate.

John: Chocolate. Okay. All right. If you had to choose, Star Wars or Star Trek?

Rubik: Star Wars. I never got into Star Trek. I’ve seen Star Wars, but I’m not a huge fan of both of them. I can identify characters, but — yeah.

John: I can identify more of the Star Wars characters for sure because I’ve seen maybe, I don’t know, two Star Trek. Maybe one movie, one episode of the show, so yeah, I’m similar. How about your computer, PC or Mac?

Rubik: I use a PC for all work-related stuff, but then I have a Mac for my hobby stuff, so a little bit of both.

John: Wow! Ambidextrous, I like that, man. That’s impressive.

Rubik: Macs suck for Excel though, so I don’t advise anyone to use Microsoft Excel on a Mac. I still can’t figure some stuff out on why it’s different.

John: It is weird. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Rubik: Oh, man. I can’t go wrong with just vanilla and putting some toppings on it.

John: Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah, toppings though, that’s where it’s at. That’s for sure. All right. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Rubik: I like making an old fashioned, so some whiskey or rye, mix it up. That’s my one cocktail that I’m more than decent at making, so that’s my go to.

John: There you go. I like that. How about suit and tie or jeans and a T-shirt?

Rubik: Pre-pandemic? Now, shoot, I haven’t put my suit on in six to seven months, so I hope it fits next month when I have to go to a trial.

John: That’s so funny. Yeah, I actually had to put my suit on a little bit ago and it didn’t have elastic. It was kind of like, these aren’t gym shorts, so I’m not sure. We’ll see. Yeah, that’s so funny. How about balance sheet or income statement?

Rubik: Let’s go income statement. Yeah.

John: All right. There it is. That’s the money. How about what’s a typical breakfast?

Rubik: Typical breakfast for me, I’ll usually do some kind of — not cereal, but now, I’ve been doing it with yogurt or peanut butter. When I’m at home, I get some kind of grain and some fruit in it. Once I start going back in the office though, it’ll probably be something a lot worse for my body. For now, it’s something that feels pretty healthy. It’ll be $12 to have a nice brunch every time probably.

John: Right. Exactly. Yeah, but you eat at home, so that’s even better. Three more. Do you have a favorite number?

Rubik: No.

John: No? Oh, just positive ones or negative ones?

Rubik: As an accountant, you’ve got to like everything, right? You can’t be biased towards numbers, so you’ve got to treat them all equally.

John: Okay. All right. Just in case they’re listening, we like all of you, so we’re good. How about with my book being out, Kindle or real books?

Rubik: Oh, man, I like Audible. I haven’t done Kindle yet, but I like Audible because if I read too much, I fall asleep. That’s why I like children’s books because they’re 12 pages, but Audible is great. So if you want to record a copy where you can read it to me, it’ll be easier for me to really listen to and focus on.

John: Okay. Yeah. My book will be coming out with the Audible in early part of next year, so there we go. The last one, favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Rubik: I just recently got a real awesome printer. It’s an Epson EcoTank ET-15000. To you, it means nothing, but to me, it’s really awesome. I can’t even explain all the awesomeness of it. Maybe it’s because my past printer was kind of crappy, but it really goes well with printing out cards and stuff.

John: That’s great. Yeah, it’s like the Lamborghini of printers. Yeah, whatever it is, that’s awesome, man. Very cool.

Rubik: When the kids get close to it, I just tense up. I’m like, “Don’t even think about it.”

John: Right. Very cool, man. Well, that dovetails perfectly into your “and” with the greeting cards and then the book as well. How did that get started?

Rubik: I have a three-year-old and a one-year-old, so I’ve read a ton of children’s books over the past three years. Some of them I read and I’m just like, “This is dumb. I can do better than this.” I was thinking about it would be great if there was a book I could read my kids that has to do with accounting or financial literacy somehow, but not too deep into it so they’re not like, “Well, I don’t know, Dad. This doesn’t make sense to me” to where it’s kind of a children’s book, but it has some jokes in there, but also for the parent to enjoy. I thought, you know what, one day, I sat down and said, “Let me just start writing down accounting jokes. What are some accounting puns I can think of?” It took me a while to think of a main character, and one day, I said, “What if there was a general whose name was General Ledger and he was the hero?”

John: Yes!

Rubik: From that point, it started building out and I was like, I’m doing it. All right. Cool. It was over a year that I had been working on it and just had a little notebook. I was jotting down ideas in. That was my main motivation at first. The greeting cards complement it, but I’ve always liked greeting cards. I’m the guy who will spend 30 minutes in the aisle at Target looking at all the cards, trying to find the perfect one, put one back, put another, get another one. You just want that moment where you hand the card to someone and you’re looking at them like, “Did you read it? Isn’t that perfect?” They look at you like, “Oh my gosh, how did you find it? This card is perfect.”

John: Right, and you’re like, “I made it.”

Rubik: Yeah. Now, I can say, “Hey, let me create those perfect card moments.” So when accountants are giving cards to accountants or if an accountant is getting a card from a non-accountant, they can fully appreciate the accounting humor in the card.

John: That’s awesome, man. I love that. That’s so great because you’re like — I don’t even think that existed or does exist, or if it’s an accounting joke, it’s going to be — I don’t know. It’s just lame. This isn’t even a good one. This is written by a non-accountant.

Rubik: Right. The ones that you would have at some kind of card store is probably going to do some riff on the IRS and that’s pretty much it because they assume every accountant does taxes and there’s no other — I mean, we do other things clearly based on all the other people you’ve spoken to on your podcast.

John: Like embezzle. That’s definitely more lucrative. No, I’m kidding.

Rubik: Some do.

John: It’s a joke that I had on stage. We don’t all do taxes. Some of us prefer to embezzle. That’s just a joke that I had. That’s just super cool, man, but it started with a book. That was pretty much what — the General Ledger is what started it?

Rubik: Yeah. It started just with my desire to do a book. I actually several years ago had an interest in doing a side business in greeting cards, but I never really found a way to make it work. I was trying to come up with ideas, but nothing really, and my mind was like, “Yeah, this isn’t going to work out. This isn’t feasible.” Then as I was developing the book, I was like, “You know what? A lot of these jokes, I can parlay into cards as well.” Then I said, “You know what? Let it just all be accounting-related. Let me fully embrace the accounting nerd inside of me.” I’d have a captive audience, so that would make it easier to market it to a group of people.

An accountant will see something like this and I get a lot of laughs from accountants when they see the book or some of the cards, which if I just do a generic card, no one’s going to say, “Oh, that’s a great card” that says “Have a great day” or something, but if it has an accounting joke built in then you’re automatically going to get a better reaction from it from an accountant, at least.

John: Totally. That’s so great, man. That’s so great. Brian Regan had a bit — a really great comedian — of when he first had a kid. He opens the children’s book and it’s, “The clock. The clock. The clock goes tick. The clock goes tock. The end, 1995.” He’s like, “Who’s writing this? What the hell.” You’re like, “I can write this” and you did. I think that’s really cool. Have you heard from people that have gotten the cards or gotten the book? That’s got to feel really rewarding to hear their reaction to what you’ve created.

Rubik: Yeah. Well, when I see a sale come in, I’m like, oh my gosh. They’re not just looking at a picture of it in a social media post. They’re actually saying, “Take my money. I don’t want to just look at this virtually on my screen. I want to hold it and I might want to read it to my children” or have someone else read it to their children. I remember the first sale that came through. I was like, oh my gosh, what do I do? Okay. I’m going to package it here. My wife was looking at me like, “I think you should put some more tape on that postage label on the envelope just to make sure it gets there.”

Now, that’s a lot easier of a process, but it was certainly exciting to see just the reaction that I get from people not only when they want to buy it, but then I’ll see people send me messages or share some of my posts and say, “Oh, it’s so great that someone’s doing something like this” or “These are really great.” It’s just a good feeling knowing that yeah, there are people that appreciate this. It’s not just me.

John: Yeah, that’s really fantastic. Would you say that any of this gives you a skill that you bring to work at all?

Rubik: Really it made me look at marketing a lot more and just understanding too the digital marketing. I know that’s something that we look at work-wise before I got into all this stuff, but now when I post something and I’m looking at it and saying, “Okay, let me look on LinkedIn. I got this many views and this many likes and shares” or whatever, okay. What was up with this one that this one did better than that post? So as we do things work-wise when we’re putting out some of our own work-related marketing content, I’m a little more aware of that stuff now to say okay, let’s be able to look at that to see what works, what doesn’t work when we’re trying to sell forensic accounting.

John: Wow. Yeah, I didn’t even think of that. Plus, I guess just that creative side, you’re able to make that ad just not so stale. It’s still forensic accounting. It’s what you’re selling, so you can’t have this Apple ad or something like that, but you can also just a little bit outside the box to make it not look like everyone else’s ad type of thing because you have a different lens that you’re looking through.

Rubik: Yeah. We just have to know who the user is. I have a much more defined user on my greeting card and children’s book business, but then with forensic accounting, we have to think about okay, if an attorney is going to see this advertisement, are they going to say, “I completely understand. I need to pay these people money” or if an attorney’s client sees it, we have to think about it a different way. But I’m a big data guy, too, so I just know now that okay, here’s all the data that’s available through those social media metrics and analytics that we can look at and evaluate on what’s working and what’s not working.

John: Yeah. That’s cool, man. That’s great because it’s a muscle that you’re exercising outside of work. I’m sure at no point — I’m going to bet a ton of all my money actually that at no point in your business education did anyone say write a children’s book or make greeting cards because it’ll make you better at forensics accounting.

Rubik: No, I don’t think so. Maybe someone said, “Hey, if you need to consider quitting your day job, maybe go write a book or something” but they didn’t get into the specifics.

John: No, that’s cool. I would imagine your appreciation for printers has also gotten way up.

Rubik: Oh, yeah. You have no idea. I had a printer just at home that my mother-in-law had gotten us five years ago, and we never print anything at home. It’s this printer with full ink and everything. A year ago actually, we had an event at the office. It was Market Day and people could come in and bring in some crafts or whatever.

John: Oh, that’s cool.

Rubik: If they have a side hobby, bring it in and sell it in the firm. That was the first time I printed these greeting cards and I just busted out that old printer. I said, “Well, okay, this is what I have. It might not be that good,” but it actually was decent. It was really good. It’s nowhere near my new fancy toy now.

John: The 15,000.

Rubik: That’s right. Yeah, the other one wasn’t even like 2000.

John: That’s hilarious. That’s such a cool thing that the firm did. It sounds like Briggs & Veselka where if you make something then bring it in and share it. It’s almost like show-and-tell, flea market style. Sell it. That’s cool. I would imagine that that had to open up some eyes for some people, and even people that you didn’t even know did other things as well.

Rubik: Oh, for sure, yeah. I looked around the room and at first, I went in and I decided — when they sent out the email about it, I said, “Oh, you know what? I’m either going to do it or I’m never going to do this thing, so let me design one.” I designed one. It was right around Christmas. It was beginning of December, so I made one Christmas greeting card with an accounting joke on it. I said I’m just going to print out 20 of these. I’m going to try to sell these. If no one buys them, if everyone says these are dumb then forget about it. If they sell then okay, I’m onto something.

John: That’s a lot of pressure on your co-workers.

Rubik: Yeah. I was selling it up. I was targeting all the tax folks because it was a tax joke on my card and I sold out. Now, it was intimidating because I look around the room and people have this whole setup they’re bringing in. They’re like, “I have a tablecloth. I have a banner” and this and that. I’ve got like a shoebox with 20 greeting cards in it and a few dollars of change in case someone pays with a five. What am I doing here? But it worked out because I just sat next to the person selling kolaches. It wasn’t good for my profits because every dollar I made, I just bought a kolache.

John: Right.

Rubik: I’m a little more responsible now with my business, so good lesson learned.

John: Right. Oh my goodness, that’s so good. I could just imagine your set up and you’re like, “I don’t know what’s going on.” Everyone’s got a full pop-up store and you’re almost the homeless man that’s just selling whatever’s in your shopping cart. What the hell, man? No, but that’s great though because it’s more genuine and authentic. That’s great because it’s that target niche and then you go in and you hit it. Then you’re like, okay, this can be a thing. They didn’t even know that they were guinea pigs in a big experiment.

Rubik: Oh, yeah, and they had no idea the book stuff was going on in the background, so that was kind of further validation for me. If I can get people to buy these cards, let’s do this book. I just got to finish it and figure out how to get it into a printed book format, which was another process. But it was definitely a good, motivational stepping stone for me to get over that first hump and then get that proof of concept, and then motivate me to keep going with it.

John: Yeah. Was there a part of you that ever thought — because I would imagine that not a lot of people knew that you had this going or that this was an idea of yours or whatever, maybe a couple of coworkers or maybe no one. But was there a part of you that was like, “They’re going to judge me” or “This isn’t what a principal does in accounting firms” or something like that?

Rubik: For sure, yeah. There was definitely a part of it. Everyone can always say, “Oh, I’m busy. I’m busy. I don’t have time to do this stuff,” which if you really are passionate about it — a lot of this stuff I would do 11 o’clock at night. It’s late at night on the weekends or whatever, so it’s not like it’s a day-to-day thing. But there was always that concern of, well, okay, if I’m doing this, should I be spending more time on these other things related to my job? Is someone going to judge me for that? That was always something that I was initially worried about. But then we get that email that says, “Hey, everyone, let’s have a Market Day. Bring in all your stuff.” It was a really easy way for me to be like, well, they want me to do this. Let me see who else is out there coming out with this stuff, so it was a good event, I thought, to help people come out there.

John: And kudos on the firm because we’re so permission-based. That basically gave you the permission to be like, hey, this is what I’m doing. How important do you think it is to have something outside of work as opposed to just spend more time doing work?

Rubik: Very. I’ve worked for people who I feel like didn’t have that thing outside of work to get them out of the office. I feel like for me initially, a lot of the stuff I do outside of work, it’s through professional organizations and volunteer efforts I can do through there. But then just having those things outside of work to pull me away from the PC and pull me onto the Mac to be able to work on other things, it’s really important. I feel like it just helps you grow, helps keep you happy, helps keep you grow in other areas that you might not get through your normal day-to-day.

John: Yeah, it’s just that unplug. For you, like you said, away from the computer, the work computer, and onto the creative computer, if you will, the non-Excel one. So even if you wanted to do Excel, you couldn’t, but that’s so great, just to unplug a little bit. There are plenty of studies done on more work doesn’t equal better output.

Rubik: Right.

John: Especially something that’s so different and it’s more that creative because with me doing internal audit and merger acquisition work and then doing standup comedy, I enjoy the creative because you can’t really get creative a lot in the accounting side or you’re not supposed to.

Rubik: You’re not supposed to. You can. There are penalties and repercussions you may face if caught.

John: Then on the other side, if you’re not creative then that’s when the penalties happen, or figuratively. So it was just nice for both sides of my brain to be able to just exercise that, but it’s cool to hear, like you said earlier, of those examples of where it does apply to work.

It’s not just nothing at all type of a thing. I love that example from Briggs & Veselka. How much do you think it is on an organization to lead that charge and encourage people to share those outside-of-work interests versus how much is it on the individual to be willing to bring in their crafts and things to share or even just talk about it?

Rubik: Right. I think it goes to the organization’s culture. If they have an openness to it, it really goes down to making sure people can have a life outside of work. If the organization is just stressing billable hours and wanting everyone to be present and be in the office all the time, that puts a damper on anything you can do outside of work. So I think that’s one big picture element of it. But then also just having people, mentors and managers within your team that encourage it as well, I feel like that plays a big role as well.

John: Yeah, because it actually just speaks to the framework or the organization as a whole. Also, people can’t have anything to share if you don’t give them time to go do the thing to talk about. There’s actually another step before that that they need to be doing as well, which is a really great point. No wonder you’re a principal. Let’s do it, man. I like that. You’re right. “Hey, everybody, share what you’re talking about.” Well, we don’t have time to do anything to share, so that would defeat the purpose.

Rubik: Well, work more efficiently then you’ll have time to do it.

John: Right. Okay. Yeah. Exactly, or you work more efficiently and then we just give you more work to do.

Rubik: There you go.

John: Because you’re so good at it, and it’s like, “No, no.” That’s such a great example. Is there anything else that you’ve seen in your working world to encourage people to share those outside-of-work interests?

Rubik: It’s funny. When I was in the office, you walk around and you see different people’s offices. You see something in their office that you can automatically connect with and you’re like, “Oh, hey, you went to…” I went to the University of Houston, so if I see someone with the U of H anything, I’m like, “Oh, hey! Going to the game?” or “Yeah, what’s up with the basketball team?” I feel like that always helps with being able to see people just express themselves a little bit. A lot of people have the standard college stuff, but then I’ve seen some people have different things, little gadgets, little trinkets, Legos, all kinds of things that you look at it and you’re like, “Oh, yeah, this person wants me to talk to them and ask them about this thing that they’re bringing in to express themselves. I think this is okay. I think I’m allowed to do this.”

John: Right. That’s such a great thing of just having something in your office. It’s not shouting from the rooftops. It’s not bragging. It’s not looking for attention. It’s something that brings you joy looking at it, number one, but number two, it’s an invitation to people to ask me about this, if you would like. Then that just creates a real conversation as opposed to just work-related talk and then I’m leaving. It opens that door. I imagine it has to grease the wheels a little bit for camaraderie and teamwork.

Rubik: Well, and a little more interesting conversation aside from the normal, “So how is the weekend?” “I’m going to block out the next 20 seconds.” “Oh, cool. So here’s what we’ve got going on this week.”

John: Right. “Well, my cat got run over by a truck.” “Okay. Anyway, we got work to do.” It’s like, what? No, I just said the worst possible thing ever. “Anyway, we got work.”

Rubik: “If you want to buy a new cat, we’ve got to bill some hours, so let’s get on this so the client pays us.”

John: Right. That’s for sure happened. We’re laughing about it, but it’s for sure happened. It might be your next book, I don’t know.

Rubik: It’s a little morbid for children. I’ll have to see. Greeting cards are better, greeting cards for adults. I can be a little more naughty in some of the jokes on there versus the children’s book.

John: It’s almost like — I just imagined almost like a Far Side like when I was younger. That was my go to, Far Side and Mad Magazine and stuff like that. That explains why I’m here where I am today. This has been awesome, Rubik. Do you have any words of encouragement for people listening that think that their hobby or passion has nothing to do with their job or no one’s going to care?

Rubik: You never know. You automatically think no one’s going to care, but you’d be surprised. Everyone has some kind of interest outside of work and it can be very different from totally non-accounting-related. You just never know until you ask them. I’m really hoping that people get more open about sharing their outside-of-work hobbies and don’t have that fear because like you said, it really leads to more interesting conversation. You can have a lot more fun if I’m checking in with a co-worker, saying, “Hey, how’s that hobby going? Where are you at on it?” You really have a much stronger connection with them as a result of that, so it’s really mutually beneficial for being able to see — for me, I’m able to see okay, these people care about me, but then it also gives me an opportunity to express an interest and it just makes you feel good.

John: That’s so perfect. As a leader, a leadership role, it just shows some genuine interest in the people around you. It’s huge because we forget what it’s like to be 22 to 23 coming out of school and then a principal. What are you, invincible? Do you know everything? So when you’re like, “I like to do greeting cards and make a children’s book,” it’s like, oh, he’s a real person. That’s neat. That’s really cool.

Rubik: I don’t know what 22-year-old me would have thought of 35-year-old me if I would have said that. It’s like, oh, yeah, 35-year-old me, I do greeting cards. 22-year-old me would have probably judged, but I don’t know. I probably would have gotten over it.

John: But it’s a good example to show you can have other things and still be successful.

Rubik: Yeah. Maybe 22-year-old me would have been more cool with it if someone would share those experiences rather than just worrying about, “Hey, so where’s happy hour this Friday?”

John: Yeah, exactly, or golf or more work. There are other sides to that and that’s really neat. Before I wrap this up though, it’s only fair that I turn the tables and allow you to question me, so we’ll make this The Rubik Podcast. Welcome to the first episode. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. So whatever questions you’ve got, let them rip.

Rubik: Okay. John, are you ready?

John: Yeah.

Rubik: Favorite holiday of the year?

John: Oh, favorite holiday. I’m going to go Tax Day because it’s also my birthday, April 15th.

Rubik: Oh my gosh, you are an accountant. Oh, man. I could make a special accounting tax day/busy season/birthday card for you.

John: Exactly. It would have all of the things. It would be a trifold. It would have to have —

Rubik: Oh yeah. I’d charge double for it, for sure. Funny card or sappy cards?

John: Oh, funny card.

Rubik: Oh, thank goodness.

John: Yeah. If you’re going to send a card — I don’t know. I used to actually — I’m not huge on the cards because I didn’t write it, so I don’t really mean it because somebody else wrote these words. My mom especially, very big into cards, and my grandmother as well. So for holidays, I would give them the blank inside cards. So it’s got, for Christmas, a picture of a volcano and then it’s blank on the inside. Then on the back, I would just write, “Love, John.” My kids, if you wanted a card, you got a card. The message is not from me, so blank inside. There you go. But funny cards for sure.

Rubik: Perfect. I’m going to take a guess that you’re a fan, but favorite Weird Al song.

John: Oh, wow, so many, but I’m going to have to go — oh, man, he is a genius. I’m going to have to go — I believe it was 3rd Grade talent show elementary school. It might have been 4th Grade. It was 4th Grade, 4th Grade talent show. We did, “Like a Surgeon”. One of my buddies, there were three of us — or four because one of them was the person getting operated on. At the very end, one of my friends — his mom was a nurse, so we got these giant syringes, almost like turkey baster syringes without the needle, of course. At the very end, we squirted the whole audience with water. It was great, but yeah, “Like a Surgeon,” that one’s hilarious to me. There are the newer ones, too, but that’s the one that just came to mind right away just because of that talent show, which we won.

Rubik: Well, I would imagine. Everyone’s terrified enough. They’re like, well, this is the most memorable one where I’m going home with a souvenir. I got —

John: There was no talent at all on that stage. When we were doing our piece, it was just pure funny and just silly. When you’ve got a bunch of elementary school kids voting, that’s what you go with.

Rubik: I’m impressed that as a ten-year-old or so that you guys were able to nail that. I’m sure you got all the lyrics and everything.

John: Oh, I’m sure not, but it was close.

Rubik: I’m sure there were some teachers that were mortified a little bit like, “Are they singing the parody or the real song?”

John: Right. This isn’t Madonna. I had the record — I mean, the albums, Weird Al albums. I was a huge fan of Weird Al still to this day. He’s great. That’s where my music parodies are inspired by, for sure. You know Weird Al. He’s the OG on that.

Rubik: He is, yeah. I used to want to be Weird Al, but then I could never sing.

John: It’s the accordion that gets me, too. He’s just so good at it. It’s like, man. Yeah, singing as well. I’m a lip syncer, that’s for sure. That’s cool, man. Well, thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? Rubik, this has been really, really fun.

Rubik: Yeah. Thanks for having me, John. I really enjoyed it.

John: Cool! Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Rubik’s cards or book or see him in action, connect with him on social media, go to whatsyourand.com and everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button to do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to get the book. It’s great for the holidays.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 340 of What’s Your “And”? Follow-Up Friday Edition. This is John Garrett and each Friday, I follow up with a guest who had been on the show a few years ago to hear what’s new with their passions outside of work, and also hear how this message might have impacted them since we last talked.

I’m so excited. My book is out. You can order it on Amazon, Indigo, barnesandnoble.com, a few other websites. So check out whatsyourand.com for more. Thank you so much to everyone who’s read it so far and been kind enough to leave those Amazon reviews. It’s just really, really cool to see the difference that the message is making for everyone out there. Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

This Follow-Up Friday is no different with my guest, Ges Ray. He’s a retired banker who’s now a public speaking confidence-builder through coaching and online workshops, and now, he’s with me here today. Ges, thanks so much for taking the time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Ges: It’s a pleasure, John. I read your book twice. It’s amazing. Go read it. You’ve got to read it, folks.

John: Oh, well, thank you so much, man. It is. There’s enough meat in there, but it is a quick read for people that aren’t readers. That’s how I wrote it because people are busy. I just appreciate being part of that launch team, man. Thank you. I have rapid fire questions for you. We’ll just do seven though, ones that I didn’t ask the first time, but maybe I should have now that we’re friends. Here we go. First one, if you had to choose, Harry Potter or Game of Thrones?

Ges: Oh, Game of Thrones, definitely.

John: Okay. All right. This one’s a tricky one, brownie or ice cream?

Ges: Brownie, perhaps with ice cream on top?

John: Oh, that was a trick one. That’s the right answer. That’s exactly it, warm brownie a la mode. There you go. Nice. Good save. This was a fun one somebody asked me and I like asking people now. Socks or shoes?

Ges: Oh, socks first.

John: Right? That’s what I said.

Ges: Here in the UK because it’s really chilly here at the moment.

John: Right. Yeah. Right. Shoes without socks?

Ges: Weird.

John: You can wear socks without shoes anytime.

Ges: Yeah.

John: Totally. Here’s a good one. Oceans or mountains?

Ges: Oceans. Oh, the sound of the ocean lapping against the shore, yes.

John: Very nice. How about real book, Kindle, or Audible?

Ges: Real book with pages you can touch, the sensuous feel of rich, creamy paper.

John: Wow. There you go. I almost want to eat it now. Two more. How about a favorite animal? Any animal at all?

Ges: Cat. We’re a cat household. We adore cats. In fact, we even foster cats in this house. So when they’re being rescued, we are the staging between their rescue and their forever home. So we have a stream of fantastic cats coming through. They’re wonderful.

John: That’s very cool. The last one, the toilet paper roll, is it over or under?

Ges: Over. How could anyone do under? It’s over.

John: I don’t know. It happens, I think. It happens. Most importantly, it’s within arm’s reach. That’s the priority there, but definitely over. So Episode 171, we talked choral singing. Maybe for those that weren’t able to catch that one, what is choral singing? Just to bring people into the loop.

Ges: You’re singing in a choir. There’s a huge tradition in the UK of choral singing that goes back to probably about year 300, I suppose. It’s just part of our world in the UK that choirs get together. People get together to sing. I know you do it over the pond as well, but it’s very much a tradition here. Dorking Choral Society, 60 or 70 people singing everything from Handel’s Messiah to Eric Whitacre, one of your composers, really glorious voices occasionally with instruments, but often just voices on their own, so it’s choirs singing.

John: Okay. Nice. That’s awesome. I know that you had a pretty huge trip since we last talked, and some pretty awesome things have happened.

Ges: Because I was getting quite interested in it at the time, wasn’t I? I try not to pick myself up about this, but I do mention it three times a day since May.

John: As well you should. As well you should. I mention it three times a day and I’m not even you.

Ges: I sang an a capella solo onstage at the Carnegie Hall, New York.

John: That is awesome.

Ges: Awesome.

John: That’s it. That’s the peak.

Ges: I’m an amateur choral singer. I’m not a professional singer. I just do it for fun, but thank you. There’s a long story behind it. I got the chance to be on stage with — actually, it was a score called Zimbe! It was a work that’s done really well. The guy who composed it and who was conducting phoned me up one day and said, “Ges, do you and some of your colleagues fancy coming to Carnegie Hall to help us?” Do we? Then he phoned me up again, “Ges, you know that little solo on Page 89 for the bass voice? You know, don’t you? Because you’ve sung it. Would you like to do it in Carnegie Hall?”

“Alexander, you’re asking me to sing a solo?” What it is, you get to the end of a chorus and it goes silent. The conductor just points his baton at you and you come in, no instruments, no lead, no entry, just in from silence. You’ve got to hit it, bang in the middle. It’s one of the scariest moments of my life, but oh boy, was it fun.

John: Yeah, and you nailed it and that is just awesome, man. That’s some intense pressure. What’s that old joke? How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice. That’s so cool, man, and you were able to get to New York City and hang out for several days. Yeah, that’s super fun.

Ges: Well, here’s another side story. My daughter came with me, so that weekend cost me a fortune. I couldn’t even claim it as a business trip. She was staying with me because she was part of the world premiere that we were part of ten years ago. There was a show we wanted to see, Waitress. We thought, “We’ll never get around to seeing it on Broadway.” We’re chatting to some of the soloists and there’s this young guy, Tyrone. He’s really nice. He says, “Oh, I know I’m singing here, but actually, I’m in the cast of Waitress.” “You’re what?” He said, “Just go to Times Square to the discount booth. Get your tickets. When you’ve seen the show, just come around to the stage door,” so we did. We saw the show, and at the end, fought our way through the crowds because there are millions of people wanting to get to the stage door. Somehow, I convinced the massive guy on the door that we actually knew Tyrone. We were let in and we were given a backstage tour.

John: That’s fantastic.

Ges: Yeah, what a memory.

John: That is fantastic. Between that and then Carnegie Hall, good Lord! You did it. I lived in New York for nine and a half years. I didn’t do either of those things. You were there five days and you nailed it.

Ges: Three actually.

John: Three days?

Ges: Yeah.

John: Now, you’re rubbing it in. That’s so fantastic and so cool to hear that. What a special time, and to be able to share that with your daughter too is really cool.

Ges: Exactly. It’s a shared memory. She’s in her 30s now, but we’ll never, ever forget that. It’s a moment forever. The half a dozen of us who went over from Dorking Choral Society, we got this little secret group. I even use the picture of me singing in Carnegie Hall as my Zoom backdrop when I’m feeling in the mood.

John: There you go.

Ges: I show off about it.

John: That’s fantastic. We’ll have a picture on the show page at whatsyourand.com for everybody who wants to check that out, for sure. Yeah, it’s probably a memory you won’t forget because you bring it up three times a day. There’s that, too. No, I’m teasing, but you’ve been able to perform quite often actually in the last two years since we chatted.

Ges: Absolutely. I’m a longstanding member of our local choral society of Dorking Choral and a smaller group, so yeah, every chance we get, we sing. In fact, despite the current problems, we’re getting together to sing some carols to an old people’s home Saturday week. So socially distanced, but we’re standing outside and giving them again a capella renditions of old favorite carols. We will enjoy it probably more than the residents will. It’s just so much fun to get together.

John: That’s fantastic to hear that you’re still able to do it and practice because there’s got to be some joy, happiness, and fulfillment that come from singing.

Ges: Oh, hugely. With another hat on, I’m a trustee and vice chairman of the Leith Hill Musical Committee for the Leith Hill Musical Festival, which actually stems from Vaughan Williams, one of our UK conductors who’s well-known across the globe. His sister began the Leith Hill Musical Festival in 1905 and it’s happened every year since. At the moment, we’re planning for 2022. You’ve got a dozen choirs who come together for a couple of days and actually compete, old-fashioned, cutthroat, to-the-death singing competition.

John: Okay.

Ges: But then that day is collection of choirs, so we have probably three or four choirs having sung, say, Handel’s Messiah or Mozart Requiem for the competition and various other pieces. We all get together on stage. I was on one a couple of years ago, very Requiem, one of the biggest pieces in the repertoire. So we had over 200 of us on stage with a 60-piece orchestra just three feet away. When you’re in the middle of all that singing your heart out, oh, it sends a shiver down your spine and you come out floating on cloud nine. It is a fantastic community experience.

John: Wow, that’s awesome, and the power of just that many people that are good. That’s pretty fantastic. The way you described that is probably rarely you described coming out of work at the bank. “It sent shivers down my spine. It was amazing. Honey, you’ll never believe it. I’ve got to bring it up three times a day for the rest of my life.” How amazing that spreadsheet looked. That’s just cool to hear that, the way that you light up and you can hear it in the tone of your voice. It’s just cool when people are talking like that.

Ges: Well, it’s just a tiny little bit from the Requiem. Those of your listeners who understand it will know. There is a trumpet solo at one part of it where about half a dozen trumpeters, they just blast your ears off.

What they did on this one was they actually sneaked around the back of the building and up into the balcony, out the back of the auditorium. At the point where their solo was to happen, the doors flung open and they’re standing at the top of the balcony, blasting on their trumpets, and the whole audience let them out, six feet.

John: Right.

Ges: Incredible.

John: Suddenly, the show is for you, too. It’s like, “I’m not interested in the show. I get to see it, too.”

Ges: Yeah.

John: That’s really cool. Yeah, there is a performance piece to it for sure. So do you feel like people are sharing their passions more now or is there still work to be done?

Ges: You’re right. There is still work to be done. I still got a business to run. Everyone has where they can, but I think there’s more of a focus now — the world has shifted, isn’t it? The old values — I’ll give you a practical one. I like cars. We all like cars and I’ve got outside a contract car. I don’t own them. I just rent them from a contract company. It’s one of the best vehicles I’ve ever had. It goes off. My wife gets frightened every time I touch the throttle. She holds me back, saying, “No, no, don’t.” Apart from trips down to — my dad’s in a residential home down on the coast in Kent in the UK, a long way for us. It’s about two hours, which I know is nothing in your world, but it’s big in the UK.

John: That’s a hike.

Ges: Apart from occasional trips to see him, it is sitting out there, unused. So a value that was previously placed on an asset that you would use and do something with and maybe show off about, it’s meaningless. I love watches, but I’ve only worn a watch twice since lockdown, once to my mother’s funeral, once for burying her ashes.

John: Oh my goodness.

Ges: And that was only because it seemed disrespectful to be glancing at a mobile phone.

John: Right.

Ges: So the values that we had before have, I think, changed for the better. People now want to — they want to know you, just just as you do. People are less scared, I think, of actually admitting that they have a life and they do other things because people want to know about people now. Cross fingers, that carries on and becomes part of our world going forward because we need to be part of a world where people share and understand and talk to people as people, and not just as corporate guys following the rules.

John: We’ve been in each other’s homes now. You’re with these Zoom calls and these Microsoft teams calls and whatever software is out now that people are using. We’ve been in each other’s homes. We’ve seen when the kids can’t get the homeschooling to connect right or what art is on someone’s walls or the dog is going crazy because the delivery person is dropping something off. So to act like we haven’t been in each other’s homes and seen each other at this state — because for the most part, people put on this facade of everything’s great when they go to the office. And then when you’re at home especially for eight or nine months, you can’t hide that anymore. It’s like this is me, take it or leave it, which has got to be a little bit liberating for most people because it’s like I’m done pretending to be something.

Ges: There’s an example from a colleague of mine who normally comes to your part of the world and meets a Manhattan lawyer in his corner office, and that’s the world he’s always visited him for years. But of course, he couldn’t go there anymore, so he’s now talking to him, exactly as you say, on a screen in the kitchen. Okay. It’s a pretty nice kitchen because he’s a Manhattan lawyer, but still, it’s human now. It’s not, oh, you can only see me in my office setup. It’s right, we’ll still do business, but actually, there’s a human element behind it as well.

John: Yeah, exactly. I think that that just makes it stronger. Like you were saying earlier, people just want to know people, which is really, really fantastic. Do you have any words of encouragement to people listening that maybe they’re in a choral group or they have another hobby that they feel like has nothing to do with their job and no one’s going to care?

Ges: Yes. Talk about it. Let people know because you will find even if — a tiny example. My wife, who’s retired now, thought she might like to do some crocheting. That’s the sort of stuff grandmothers used to do. She mentioned it and people come out of the woodwork and say, “Oh yeah, I’ve just started.” Whatever it is you love, whatever it is that tickles your fancy, just start mentioning it because people will come out of the woodwork who share that view and you’re less likely to be put down for it now. There is a fact that in my world of building people’s speak performance abilities, your audience always wants you to succeed. I think we have such that fear of the world that we’re going to get knocked back or it’s not right to do it, but actually, people do want other people to succeed and people usually want to help. So just talk about the stuff that you want to talk about and get the encouragement from others to support you and find your tribe. It may be it doesn’t resonate with someone. Okay, they’re not going to be part of the conversation, but someone will be part of that tribe and want to share their experiences with you.

John: Exactly. Yeah. We’re not in middle school anymore where everyone’s going to make fun of you for being the outlier. Now, it’s cool and there are follow-up questions and “show me”. It’s been fantastic to see how it’s played itself out here in the last nine months especially, but in the several years that I’ve been speaking on it. Such great words of encouragement.

It’s only fair though since I started out the show, before I close it out, that I turn the tables. This is the first episode of The Ges Ray Podcast. Thank you so much for having me on as your first guest. I know you have some questions for me, so I’m all yours.

Ges: Rapid fire question, easy one first. Chocolate, milk or dark?

John: Oh, I will go milk chocolate.

Ges: Okay. Marmite, love or hate?

John: Marmite? I’m going to need to Google that. It sounds — is it like Vegemite?

Ges: Yes, yes.

John: Then it’s a hate.

Ges: Okay.

John: You can keep it. More for you, man. More for you. That is weird to me.

Ges: Spread thickly on toast and back under the grill, I’d say. Okay. Holidays, beach or city?

John: You know, I’m going to say — let’s go beach. Why not? Because it’s very peaceful and relaxing. It’s less stressful.

Ges: Gotcha. Two more. Shirt, plain or dazzle?

John: Oh, that’s a good one. You know, I’m going to go plain on the shirt, but inside my coat is dazzle. So then when I open it to get something, people are like, “Whoa. Wait a minute. What’s that going on in there?” A party! I’m kind of like discreetly having fun.

Ges: Discreet dazzle, I like that.

John: Yeah.

Ges: Last one, and I think I know the answer to this, but car, shift or automatic?

John: I’ll go shift. I like the manual because that’s usually more of a sports car. I can also have more control. Yeah, I’ll go with that, for sure. Unless I’m in San Francisco where there are hills in traffic then it’s going to be like, “Oh, no, don’t stop at the red light.” But otherwise, yeah, manual is fantastic.

Ges: Well, you surprised me there, John. You surprised me there. I thought it would be an automatic answer to an automatic question, but there you go. You’d be very welcome in the UK because most of our cars are — well, we call them gear stick over here, but I know it’s “shifts” in the States.

John: Yeah, or manual transmission. Yeah. Well, awesome. Well, thank you so much, Ges, for being a part of this. It’s been so cool having to be on this journey. It’s just great to catch up with you again, so thanks again.

Ges: My pleasure. Thank you, John.

John: Everybody, if you want to see some pictures of Ges on stage at Carnegie Hall or some other outside-of-work pictures he’s got or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button and do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. Don’t forget to get the book. It makes an excellent, excellent holiday gift. I’m a little biased, but it’s still pretty good. Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this podcast with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.