Podcast

Welcome to Episode 557 of What’s Your “And?” This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that differentiate you when you’re at work. It’s answering the question who else are you.

And if you like what the show’s about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And?” on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Alex Miles. We met 5+ years ago at a conference, and I finally got her on the show. She’s the partner, program manager, accountant channel with FreshBooks. And now, she’s with me here today. Alex, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And?”

Alex: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited. It’s so good to finally sit down and talk with you. Yeah, like you said, we met at a conference back in 2017 and kind of stayed connected through social media over the years as you do in today’s day and age. But yeah, it’s so good to be here.

John: No, this is gonna be awesome. So much fun. And I have 17 rapid-fire questions. Get to know Alex.

Alex: All right, let’s do it.

John: Probably should have asked you in 2017, but I never got around to— I’d be random. Hi, my name’s John. So anyway, what’s your favorite color?

Alex: My favorite color is lavender.

John: Oh, nice.

Alex: Yes. I love lavender.

John: Yeah. And it’s got a scent with it.

Alex: Yeah. Oh, yeah. And that’s my favorite scent.

John: Oh, there you go. All right.

Alex: Yeah. When my husband and I went on our honeymoon in Maui, one of the things that I really wanted to do was go to the lavender farms. So I made him do that. Instead of sitting on the beach, we drove up to the mountains in Maui and did a tour at the lavender farms.

John: Well, where else are you gonna see lavender farms though? I mean, not in Idaho, that’s for sure.

Alex: I mean, there actually is surprisingly.

John: Oh, really?

Alex: Yeah.

John: Holy cow.

Alex: Yeah. Every summer, I like to go to— There’s a lavender farm about like 20 minutes from here and you can like pick your own lavender. It’s really cool.

John: That is cool. All right, there we go. How about a least favorite color?

Alex: Ooh, I’m gonna say red, but only because I don’t like red on me. So I don’t like the way my skin mends with red.

John: It’s funny. The least favorite color is almost all the time a color that people don’t like to wear. Like that’s the reason why. It’s always, always that, which is great. I love it. How about a favorite Disney character?

Alex: Ooh, favorite Disney character.

John: Or any animated character really, Disney seems to have ’em all now.

Alex: You know, I’m gonna have to go with Mickey Mouse only because my son is currently obsessed with Mickey, and Mickey just makes me so happy.

John: Yeah, it’s a classic. You can’t go wrong with that. Absolutely. Very good. Very good. How about when it comes to puzzles, Sudoku, Crossword, Jigsaw? We’ll throw in Wordle. That seems to be a new one.

Alex: I’m gonna have to go with Jigsaw.

John: Oh, okay.

Alex: But only because my husband forces me to do Jigsaw puzzles with him. I’m not a puzzle person at all. But quality time, I’ll do jigsaw puzzle.

John: Okay. Okay. Nice. You’re a team player there. I’m impressed. I like it. How about are you more talk or text?

Alex: I am more talk ’cause I like to talk. I like to voice text.

John: Oh.

Alex: So I’m a huge voice texter. And even on Slack, I like to use the voice memo of Slack instead of typing everything out because I just feel like I can like fully articulate what I’m trying to say via text or—

John: And the tone comes across ’cause it’s an audio message.

Alex: Exactly. So regardless whether it’s a phone call or a voice text, you’re listening to my voice. So, sorry. And also, I suck at texting back. All of my friends know this about me. I am the worst texter when it comes to texting back. I will start a text message and then I’ll get sidetracked, like total squirrel moment. And I forget to text back. So if I force myself to voice text somebody back, it forces me to like immediately get back to them.

John: Yeah. ‘Cause once you hit record, you can’t get sidetracked like halfway through.

Alex: Nope.

John: It’s like all right.

Alex: Nope.

John: I like it. Okay. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Alex: Ooh, I’m gonna have to go with Ryan Reynolds.

John: Oh. Oh, okay. He’s a popular one. That’s for sure.

Alex: Yeah. He’s easy on the eyes as well.

John: All right. And he smells like lavender. And so, there’s that.

Alex: Right. I’m sure he does. No, he’s also just a really great actor and he’s hilarious.

John: Yeah. And he seems like a really good person too.

Alex: Yeah. And a great dad it seems like. And yeah, he just seems like an overall great guy.

John: I’ll take it. Totally. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Alex: Oh, I’m gonna have to say neither ’cause I’ve never seen either one of them, but I’ll stick on the star theme here. And I’ll go A Star is Born, but the Lady Gaga version.

John: Oh, okay. Okay. There you go. Nice. I like it. I’ll dig it. That’s a good twist. I was like “Where’s she going with this? How many star things are there?” Yeah. A Star is Born, of course. All right. There you go. I like it. That’s awesome. Your computer, PC or a Mac?

Alex: Oh, it’s a PC.

John: A PC’s is the thing that I use ’cause I’m not cool enough to use a Mac. That’s what it is.

Alex: Mac all the way.

John: That’s very funny. Ooh, this is a fun one. Sunrise or sunset?

Alex: I’m gonna have to go with Sunrise. And I say that because we just moved into a new house, and we sit up on a hill, and we can oversee the valley. And our master bedroom oversees the whole valley. And so, in the mornings, the sunrise is so beautiful, and I love waking up with the sun.

John: Ah, that’s impressive.

Alex: Yeah. The sun peeking through and yeah.

John: That’s what having young kids will do for you right there.

Alex: Yeah.

John: That will do it. And how about ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Alex: A cup. I mean, I like cones, but they get messy and—

John: And it’s all over. Yeah. It’s just like a race against time to finish it before it gets all over the place. Yeah. How about a favorite day of the week?

Alex: Ooh, favorite day of the week. You know, I have actually grown to really like Mondays. As crazy as that sounds, I’ve grown to like Mondays just because I reset for the week and I have become a very to-do list person. And so, I write down all of my to-dos for the week, and I have a vision of like what my week looks like.

John: Nice. Absolutely.

Alex: 5 years ago, I would not have been a Monday person, but here I am.

John: Or a sunrise person.

Alex: Or a sunrise person.

John: Yeah. That’s hilarious. How about a favorite band or musician?

Alex: Lady Gaga.

John: There we go.

Alex: I have my brother-in-law to thank for that. He has always been a Lady Gaga fan, like since he was very little. And I have grown to love her. My kids actually absolutely love her. You know how Spotify or Apple Music do the like yearly wrapped list and whatever? Well, both my husband and I are like 0.5% of the top listeners for Lady Gaga every year because our kids—

John: Oh, my gosh.

Alex: …are so obsessed with Lady Gaga.

John: That’s great. It’s better than Barney or whatever the kid’s version is that’s out now.

Alex: We will get in the car and my son immediately says Ga-ga. He’s 2. And he is just like he needs Gaga to play. I went and saw her with my brother-in-law back in September. And we had VIP packages. And we were right up against the stage. And I don’t know if I will ever go to such an incredible concert. Like it should be on everybody’s bucket list.

John: Yeah, it’s an experience. That’s for sure.

Alex: It is an experience. She is so talented.

John: Yeah, no doubt. I forget if it was Netflix or whatever, The Becoming Gaga, that’s such a great— Whether you like her music or not, I mean, it’s an unbelievable special behind the scenes, peeling back the curtain of what it’s like to be her, you know. And really, just the human side of her is impressive.

Alex: Yeah, she is amazing for sure.

John: Yeah. I mean, she’s no Alex Miles, but, you know, whatever.

Alex: I know. Trust me. I know.

John: Trust me. I know.

Alex: Put her people in contact with my people. I’ll teach her a thing or two.

John: Right? Exactly. Exactly. How about a favorite number?

Alex: 12. And I say that because I was born on July 12th, so 12 has always just been—

John: That’s a solid number.

Alex: …my favorite number.

John: So there you go. All right, we got two more. When it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or the real book?

Alex: I really like real books. I like holding a real book and just being focused on the book itself. But I do love audiobooks, and podcasts, and all. I like listening when I’m doing something like cleaning.

If I’m just sitting there or driving, I feel like I get distracted when I’m listening to something. My brain just starts thinking about a million other things. So if I’m cleaning, I like an audio book. If I’m just sitting there, I like a real book.

John: And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Alex: I do love my Peloton.

John: Oh, okay.

Alex: Yeah. I love my Peloton, but I think what I love a little bit more than that— and my husband, when he listens to this, he’s gonna roll his eyes a little bit— my phone.

John: Right? You can’t send voice texts without a phone.

Alex: I know.

John: I guess maybe on your computer. I don’t know. Macs are so fancy. But your phone on your Peloton. There we go.

Alex: Yeah. Kill two birds with one stone.

John: That’s awesome. I love it. That’s so funny. But let’s talk socializing. Were you like that as a kid and just kept it going or is it how it’s always been?

Alex: I feel like my entire life my mom has always called me a social butterfly.

John: Okay.

Alex: And I’ve always been that way. I’ve always been somebody that just talks to strangers as bad as that sounds. I will have conversations with anybody. Yeah. I’ve always been a very social, outgoing person. It’s never been hard for me to have a conversation with people.

John: That’s awesome. And I mean, now it’s a huge asset to have for your job. I mean, a skillset that you can’t teach necessarily how to do that. So it directly leads to work skillset.

Alex: Absolutely.

John: I guess do you have any favorite moments of talking to strangers or random people where it’s like “Wow, that was an amazing experience or kind of like no one’s gonna believe that that just happened”?

Alex: So I think something that’s always been really cool for me when it comes to just socializing and going back to like my phone and like being very active on social media and having that tie into my job a lot is connecting with people through social media and having the opportunity to meet that person in real life, and forming friendships with people online and knowing so much about them through a screen, and then getting that opportunity to finally be face-to-face with that person.

Something that’s really cool to me is back when I was in college, I joined this fitness group on Facebook. And it was people, primarily women, just girls, college-aged, all around the world that were a part of this group. And I made friends with a handful of girls. And one girl in particular, we really just hit it off. And I randomly one day— I was like “I’m gonna go to Ohio and I’m gonna go visit her.” And my parents were like “No, you’re not.

John: Right. It might not be a real person.

Alex: Yeah. This could be like an old bald man for all we know. Like nothing against bald men.

John: Right. I was like “Hold on.” No, I’m just kidding. Like I’ll be there soon enough.

Alex: You’ve got a lot of hair. You’ve got a ways to go.

John: You’re very kind. Thank you.

Alex: No, but I randomly just booked a flight to Ohio. And I flew to Ohio. She picked me up at the airport, and it was her. And we talk every day still. This was 8 years ago. And she is my best friend. We went through pregnancy together. She is, yeah, one of my best friends. And she lives a million miles away, but met online through social media.

John: That’s so cool because like there’s times where I’m like this isn’t even real. It’s make believe. We’re talking right now and tweets are flying by. But it is real. And you know, you stay in touch that way and then you can reach out and just stay up-to-date with people and things like that. But then you’re right. When you do meet them, it’s pretty awesome to be like “Wow, you’re really like this all the time.” Or I get all the time “Wow, you’re so much taller than I thought you’d be.” And I’m like “Well, what’d you expect?”

Alex: I won’t lie. I thought the same thing when I first met you. Same thing with you actually because we met on Twitter through Qubo chat. And that’s how you and I got started connecting. And then we’ve met in real life at QuickBooks Connect. And I remember thinking the same thing. I mean, you look like you could be tall, but like you are very tall.

John: It’s like 6’6″ is like an okay. You know, like I feel like anyone taller than me, I’m like “Whoa, how do you fly? Like how do you drive a car?” Like I’m right at the edge where anyone taller than me, I’m like “Oh, my God.” Like somebody on the podcast actually one time asked at the end— They asked, “You know, what’s your favorite thing about yourself?” And I said, “That I’m appropriately tall. Like I can get things off the top shelf, but I’m not awkward.”

Alex: Yeah. Like lanky.

John: Yeah. Like “Why aren’t you in the NBA? You’re so tall.” And it’s like “Well, I’m a point guard. You know, like I’m not even really that tall.” But it is funny the reactions that people get to things. And I’m sure people with you, it’s like “Wow, you’re like this all the time. That’s cool.” You know? ‘Cause it’s neat to see that. And I guess like I said earlier, that just lends directly into your job, is being authentic online, being authentic in person, just this is who I am. And like has there ever been a time where it crossed your mind of like “Hey, maybe I shouldn’t talk about the Peloton or maybe I shouldn’t talk about my family or other things ’cause people are gonna judge me for not being all work all the time or anything like that”?

Alex: No. I mean, in previous roles, I definitely felt that. But I feel like where I’m at currently and where I’m at in my role and the company that I’m at, I feel like I can always be authentically me. And I feel like that it just goes to show what leadership can do and how much of an impact that leadership has on how you can fully bring yourself to work. So I feel like there have been times where I can’t necessarily talk about it, but where I’m at currently, yes, I absolutely can talk about everything under the sun.

John: Right. Right. Yeah.

Alex: And not feel like I’m out of line for talking about it or sharing.

John: Yeah. And just curious like do you feel like relationships are different with your coworkers in a place where you’re able to share more?

Alex: I feel like there’s a level of comfort for sure. I feel like if I show people that I’m comfortable enough to talk about me being a mom at work, me getting super sweaty and hopping on to a meeting and talking about this really hard ride that I just got done with, then that kind of leads into other people feeling comfortable enough to do that and share themselves with me. I feel like if I share, other people will share. And that’s how I am just in general, not just my work life, but my personal life as well. I’m a very open person as far as what I share and who I share to.

John: Yeah. And I would imagine that, I mean, work gets done differently maybe better by knowing these other sides to people around you and also just ’cause you care. You know, just that level of caring has to make a difference for sure. And I guess how much does it matter on the organization creating that space or how much is it on the individual to just be like “Hey, I’m gonna start it with maybe my circle of my peers or something like that?”

Alex: I feel like it definitely starts with the organization or maybe not necessarily the organization, but going back to leaders. Opening up that door of allowing people to be authentically themselves and going back to what I was saying about if I share other people, will share. Having a leader that shares themselves and my leader, Twyla, she is very open and shares about her daughter, and her husband, and her interest. Her running.

John: And her running. She was a guest on the podcast as well.

Alex: Yeah. Yeah. And so, she opens that door for the rest of the team to talk about themselves. And every meeting that we have, we talk about what we did over the weekend. Or, I mean, the one that we had yesterday, we all talked about how our Christmas was or what we got for Christmas, what we did for New Year’s, all of that. So yeah, I feel like it starts with leaders for sure.

John: And it’s important that it doesn’t have to be CEO leader. It’s the midlevel leader or the whatever level leader, like within your little group can be just awesome. You know, it doesn’t have to be organization wide necessarily ’cause it can go both ways on that. Like the CEO could be super sharing and really open and then a mid-level manager not and then everything below that gets ruined for that experience.

Alex: Exactly.

John: So it goes both ways.

Alex: I love listening to what’s going on in people’s lives. Like if they’re willing to share, I love listening to people talk ’cause I love when people like to listen to me talk.

John: Right? Exactly. But it’s so great to hear how it makes some difference.

Alex: Yeah. Absolutely.

John: And I also love that example and that’s something that people can easily take with them that are listening now of how you start a meeting with going around the table with something personal or something that’s a question that peels back a little bit of the professional veneer of what we try to present to the world.

Alex: And I feel like it opens up a level of comfort for the meeting itself as well. It just gets people loose. And I mean, there’s meetings that’s not necessary. It’s not necessary to start a meeting with talking about what your favorite color is or what you did over the weekend.

There’s definitely meetings that it does not make sense to do that. But for normal team meetings that are recurring that we have this time together every week, let’s like get to know one another a little bit more, get to know our interests. And I mean, it helps us as a team. I feel very connected to my team, and I’m very thankful for that because I’ve been in situations where I don’t feel a connection to anybody on my team. And the team that I have at FreshBooks is like stellar. We’re all very connected and in tune with one another. And I feel like a lot of that has to do with just connecting and taking that extra 5 minutes to get to know one another and talk about what we did over the weekend.

John: And it literally is 5 minutes. I mean, it’s literally 5 minutes.

Alex: Yeah.

John: And if you can’t get your work done ’cause you took 5 minutes to create a connection with another human, then maybe this isn’t your right job.

Alex: Reevaluate.

John: You got bigger problems.

Alex: Yeah.

John: But the benefits from taking that 5 minutes to just take your foot off the gas for a little bit to just have a human connection, the benefits are so much greater and in ongoing.

Alex: Oh, 100%. Yeah. I agree.

John: That’s really cool to hear that that’s going on there. So do you have any words of encouragement, anyone listening that’s like “You know, hey, I have this hobby, but I don’t think anyone cares or it has nothing to do with my job, so why talk about it?”

Alex: It does matter. What you’re doing does matter and people do care. Everybody may not care, but somebody does care. And if you are in a space that you feel like you can’t talk about what you enjoy doing, something that ignites the fire that allows you to do your best work, then maybe you should reevaluate where you’re at. I’ve been there, and I reevaluated, and I’m very happy and content. And I feel like if that is what you want to talk about, but you feel handcuffed or muzzled to do so, then reevaluate and go somewhere that’s gonna allow you to be you.

John: No, I love it. And I mean, and if you’re in a manager level or a leadership position at an organization and listening right now, go ask your people what they do, like what lights them up, you know, because that matters. And like my dream is that organizations, that’s part of your goal setting for the year, is you have your at work goals, but then you have outside of work goals that have nothing to do with work at all. Like I wanna take my kids on two vacations. Okay. Cool. How’s that going? Like we’re halfway through the year in June, where are we at? How many vacations have you done? Well, let’s book ’em. Let’s go. You know? And like making sure that people are living their best life and they’re gonna do their best work.

Alex: Because ultimately when you are able to not only talk about the things that you enjoy doing outside of work, but also do those things outside of work and make time to do those things outside of work that correlates to your performance at work. That correlates to your happiness at work. And whatever energy you put out outside of work and you’re able to talk about it and whatnot, you bring that same energy to work and you’re reignited.

John: I love that. That’s awesome. Such a great word. So perfect. Well, this has been so much fun, Alex, but I feel like it’s only fair since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning of the show that we turn the tables and we make this the first episode of The Alex Miles Podcast. So thanks for having me as a guest. So I’m all yours if you want to ask questions. Fire away.

Alex: Wahaha.

John: I’m all yours. I know. I’m very nervous actually.

Alex: Thanks so much for coming on the show, John Garrett.

John: Hey, it’s my pleasure. Thanks for inviting me. It took 5-1/2 years for us to finally get together.

Alex: Yeah, that’s my first question. What took you so long?

John: Right? Well, I wanted to write a book and that takes a long time.

Alex: No. One of my questions that I have for you is you’ve been in the podcast game for so long. You started with Green Apple and rebranded to What’s Your “And”? And you’re now on 557. What’s been the hardest part of running a podcast and being in this space for as long as you have?

John: The hardest part is getting people to be a guest. You don’t have to be all world something or have this side hustle that makes money or whatever. Like if you have any hobby, or an interest, or anything outside of work, then What’s Your “And”? is for you. It’s your message too, you know. And I feel like so many other podcasts, the host is maybe a bigger ego and it’s about them. And this show is about all of us. And so, if you’re listening now and you have a hobby that you just started 2 weeks ago, let’s talk about it. Like it doesn’t matter. You don’t even have to be good, you know. And so, I feel like it’s me reaching out to people to be like “Hey, do you want to be on?”

They’re like “Me. Really?” “Yes, you, of course you.” Like “Why not you? Like who else?” You know? And so, that’s been the hardest part, has been getting people just to see the value that you are enough. You don’t have to do whatever someone else is doing. Like just be you, and you are enough, and I want you on the show. Yeah. And reach out. Absolutely. Because I mean, there’s only one person I had to be like “Hey, do you have something else” because it was kind of illegal. “Anything else?” And they’re like “Well, no.” And I’m like “Well, let’s talk later then.” You know, that’s the only person I’ve said no. It’s just so fun to see people light up on what they love to do outside of work.

Alex: I love that. Great answer. Okay. So I am a huge gift giver. Going back to just being a socializer, I like just learning about people and being able to gift things that really mean something to somebody and not just giving gifts to give gifts type of thing.

John: Oh, yeah. That’s the worst.

Alex: What is the best gift that you’ve ever been given?

John: Oh, man. Well, having Alex Miles be on the podcast is probably right up there.

Alex: Wrap me up.

John: That’s right up there. I mean, I could get like super deep with life from my parents. I mean, that’s a pretty good gift. I mean, for real, for real, like my parents are saying that whatever college you get into, we’ll figure out a way to make it happen. And then I got into Notre Dame. And I still don’t know how my parents made that, any of that. I mean, I, of course, took the maximum loans I could, but I don’t know how my parents filled in the gaps. I really don’t. But that’s a pretty amazing gift to be able to tell someone that education matters and you busted your butt to get to whatever school you want to go to and then we’ll make it work. That’s a pretty amazing gift for sure.

Alex: I love that.

John: It’s nothing that I can like—

Alex: You’re gonna make me cry.

John: …take with me. But I mean it, it matters, you know. I mean, so many people, they’re like “Well, I’d love to go to this place, but I can’t” or “I’d love to this, but I can’t.” And it’s like to be able to have parents that see like where they came from, which wasn’t necessarily much, to be able to be like, wow, we can really give you a boost is pretty awesome. So that would probably be for real like without getting deep with like life in general. But yeah, that’s a pretty cool one, I think.

Alex: That’s awesome. I love that.

John: Well, thank you so much, Alex, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? You’re awesome and I just appreciate you being a part of this.

Alex: Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun. I’ll be back next week.

John: All right, very good. Awesome. I love it. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Alex in action or maybe connect with her on social media, I’m telling you she’s on there a lot, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are on there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture and don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 555 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work. And in other words, who else are you beyond the job title?

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every weekend. And this week is no different with my guest, Karl Hebenstreit. He’s a principal with Perform & Function in the Bay Area, California. And he’s the author of Nina and the Really, Really Tough Decision and also The How and Why Taking Care of Business with the Enneagram. And now, he’s with me here today. Karl, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on what’s Your “And”?

John: Thank you so much, John. This is really a pleasure.

Karl: Yeah, this is gonna be a blast. Super fun starting out the new year and this is gonna be great. So we have 17 rapid-fire questions though. Get to know Karl out of the gate here. So let’s see how this goes here. I’ll start you with I think an easy one. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Karl: Definitely Star Trek. I love the inclusivity. I love the message. I love the diversity that’s celebrated and the way that all the different “races” are being brought together and explained.

John: Yeah, the world.

Karl: Yes.

John: Yeah.

Karl: Yeah, definitely Star Trek. And it really goes along with one of my favorite actors and Patrick Stewart is just amazing.

John: Okay, there we go. I was gonna ask you do you have a favorite actor or actress. So there we go. Two for one right there on one.

Karl: Yeah. It’s like a Groupon.

John: Yeah. It’s like a Groupon right out of the gate. That’s hilarious. All right. How about your computer, PC or Mac?

Karl: PC.

John: PC. Me too. I’m the same.

Karl: I learned on a Mac in school. I learned on a Mac, but every job that I’ve worked at has been PC since then. You know, the other thing is I’m also an android rather than an iOS, so yeah.

John: No, I’m Android as well. I’m all in on whatever’s not Apple just ’cause I’m not cool enough I think is probably why.

Karl: I’ll join you in that club. Don’t worry.

John: Right, right, right. Would you say you’re more early bird or night owl?

Karl: Early bird.

John: Early bird. Okay.

Karl: I’m disgustingly an early bird. Everyone will tell you that I just jump up and I’m like “Good morning, everyone.”

John: Right. Like go back to sleep and wake us up at a normal time.

Karl: Exactly.

John: I’m a huge ice cream junkie. So ice cream in a cup or in a cone?

Karl: Cone. I wanna be able to eat the packaging. And especially if it’s differently flavored. There’s an amazing gelato place in Palm Springs and they have all these different flavored cones that are just— Like they have chocolate and they have creamsicle-flavored cones. Amazing.

John: Wow!

Karl: Yes.

John: Okay. Totally going to Palm Springs now just for that and then like fly in, fly out. How about do you prefer more hot or cold?

Karl: I run warm, so I prefer cold. Although vacation wise, I prefer hot.

John: Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. How about favorite band or musician?

Karl: Wow. Okay. The first thing that popped into my mind was probably my formative year. So let’s go with Abba.

John: Oh, okay. Yes! There you go. All right. I love it, man.

Karl: Although more recently, I would say more along the— Well, George Michael favorite musician overall, but band— You said band, so I’d have to go with a band.

John: No, that’s fine. That works. No, I’ll take either one. I actually do a music video parody of You Are My Adding Machine from Abba. So it’s a little play on words of see that girl watching me digging my adding machine.

Karl: Dancing Queen. Yes.

John: Yeah. Exactly. So a little bit of nerdiness.

Karl: Yes. The accounting, bringing that in.

John: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Do you have a favorite number?

Karl: 5. My favorite number is 5. My lucky number.

John: Oh, in Episode 555. Look at you, man. This is the universe good coinciding. Yeah. Exactly. Making it happen. How about books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Karl: I want the real thing. I want the actual real book. Yeah. So I can write in it. I can make notes in it. I can fold the pages over like yeah.

John: Okay. I get all up in there.

Karl: Stick it in the bookshelf. Yeah.

John: There you go. How about a favorite Disney character? There’s a million of them, so I’ll take anything animated.

Karl: Wow. Disney character. So Huey, Louie, and Dewey are the nephews of—

John: Oh, yeah!

Karl: Yeah. I love Huey, Louie, and Dewey. Yes. I don’t know why.

John: There you go.

Karl: They have Ducktails and no one probably even knows what that is, but they were so creative and would resolve and solve all the different problems that Scrooge McDuck was getting himself into. Yes.

John: Right. There you go.

Karl: I don’t know if you’ve ever gotten that answer before, but yes.

John: No. No. I forgot all about them. That’s so great. Thank you for the reminder. That’s hilarious. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Karl: Out of the three, I’d probably go with crossword just because it’s closest to Wordle, which you know obviously I’ve fallen into that trap.

John: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Karl: But ultimately, Lego, if Lego is considered a puzzle. I love Legos.

John: Oh, yeah. Okay.

Karl: Yes.

John: Okay.

Karl: I love Legos growing up and I still love the adult Legos now too. Yes.

John: Oh, really? Okay. All right. Yeah, I was definitely a huge— I mean, we had two giant tubs of Legos as kids and you just get all the leftovers of whoever and wherever and, yeah, all that. So yeah, Lego is awesome. How about a favorite color?

Karl: Red. I’d go with a red and probably more of like a darker red. When I was younger, it was probably brighter red. And now, it’s probably more like the burgundies or the Malbecs.

John: The red you can drink.

Karl: The red you can drink. Also the red you can drive. How about like a soul red or a candy apple red? I’d go with that one too.

John: Okay. Okay. All right. How about a least favorite color?

Karl: Oh, wow. Puce. How about Puce?

John: Oh, wow.

Karl: I mean, you could ever do anything with that.

John: Oh, it even sounds terrible.

Karl: Yeah. I don’t know if you could do much with that one. That’s in no one’s color wheel. Yeah.

John: Right. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. Would you say you’re more talk or text?

Karl: Talk.

John: Talk. Yeah, I’m same. It just gets to the point faster. We got three more. Toilet paper roll over or under?

Karl: The right way. Over.

John: There we go.

Karl: I actually saw there was like the original when they went to patents.

John: The patents?

Karl: Yes, it is over. So, yeah.

John: Yeah. No, no, it definitely is. It definitely is. Two more. Do you have a favorite animal? Any animal at all.

Karl: Oh, okay. So if it’s just any animal in the world, I’d have to go with monkeys because monkeys are awesome. But if it’s something that I can have, it’s obviously dogs because of our little pack.

John: A monkey riding a dog. No, no, I’m just kidding.

Karl: And I have a lovely little Chihuahua mix who’s a rescue from Mexico. His name is Turbo.

John: Oh!

Karl: Yeah. So he’s a lovely little monkey dog. Absolutely.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah, exactly. That’s perfect. I love it. I love it. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Karl: Wow. I’m gonna go with freedom on that. My freedom is my favorite thing I have or own ’cause that allows me everything else.

John: Yeah. definitely. I love it. That’s awesome. So let’s talk writing Nina and the Really, Really Tough Decision children’s books are just writing in general, like how did you get started with that? Is it something you did a lot as a kid and then just kept going or—

Karl: I think writing came easily for me just in school, reading and writing papers. And I never sought to write a book. The business book came first and the children’s book came second because, again, I like to talk. I’d rather talk than text, so I’d rather talk than write.

John: Yeah. Right. Right.

Karl: I kept giving presentations at different conferences about this wonderful thing called the Enneagram and how to use it in business. And people kept asking me “When is the book coming out?” And I looked at them like “What are you talking about? What book?” So they were hoping that I was gonna integrate all these things into a book, which actually came really, really easily because I had done all these presentations and all these PowerPoint slides. I was using all the content in business.

So it was just very simple to just create a different chapter for each different concept or intervention. And then a friend of mine co-wrote a children’s book with his mother. And I thought, you know, when I work in organizations, it’s so difficult because we really address challenges at the executive or at the higher levels, and we really don’t pay as much attention to the lower levels or the more entry-level employees.

And if we got people acclimated, and trained, and understanding of diversity of perspective early on not just their career, but in their life, it would make their lives overall much easier. So I decided, let me do a children’s book introducing the concept of the Enneagram. And by default, the people, the parents, the teachers, whoever’s reading the books to the children, would also learn about the concept as well. And that will help be a growth opportunity for them.

John: That’s incredible. And for those listening that aren’t aware, like super quick and dirty CliffNotes version of what an Enneagram.

Karl: For anyone that’s never heard of the Enneagram before, think of it as Myers-Briggs on steroids. So Myers-Briggs is a personality typing instrument, but the Enneagram actually helps you understand what the motivation is behind the behaviors, so all the other instruments out there that measure personality behaviors, but they don’t really tell you or give you insight into what’s the motivation behind that behavior. So if you know that and there are nine, there are nine primary motivators that each human will basically affiliate with one of those more than the others, and if we understand where they’re coming from, we don’t think they’re crazy and we don’t think they’re out to get us because we know exactly what their ultimate reason and purpose.

John: There you go. And if one of ’em is ice cream, that’s definitely mine.

Karl: I think that would apply to all the types.

John: Right? There we go.

Karl: Especially chocolate ice cream.

John: Right? There we go.

Yeah. But that’s so great. And to learn it as a kid, that’s so awesome to think of that ’cause when you sit down to write a children’s book, I mean, do you have to get into the child mind? Did you have to like how to get it to their level? Because you haven’t been presenting it preschools like you did for the business book. So how did you go about that?

Karl: You are absolutely right and I don’t have children of my own other than Turbo, and Chase, and Emmett – the dogs. And you know, they were no help, whatsoever. They gave no feedback. So I don’t know what went over their head or what they integrated or whatever. But you know, we were all children once and we all know people who have children. So I tested it out on friends who are parents and have children, and I tried to make it a very complicated topic as simple as possible. So I really adjusted to the standpoint of how do you make a tough decision, right? Everyone has to make a tough decision and understanding that each of the nine different types will look at decision making differently. And if we can incorporate all of those nine perspectives or views, we’re gonna make the right decision all the time and also honor the diversity that each of our friends has in being able to see something from a different point of view.

John: No, love it, man. That’s awesome. That’s really cool. And the writing, is that something that you’ve shared with coworkers in the past? Like I’m sure ’cause you don’t just write a book overnight, you know. And so, is it something that you’ve shared in the past or is it something that you keep on the down low?

Karl: Funny you should say. I did write the book overnight. The children’s book, I did write overnight.

John: Oh, that’s incredible. Holy cow. Okay, good for you, man.

Karl: Because it was an outgrowth really of the business book which had been written 5 years earlier.

John: Oh, okay. Oh, okay.

Karl: So I took one in one part of it, and I said I can really take this concept and bring it to a level that would be a lot simpler and more easily understood by a wider audience. So yeah, the children’s book was literally written overnight. It took 9 weeks from idea to publication. 9 weeks.

John: That’s incredible. Holy cow. That’s unbelievable, man. There might be a children’s What’s Your “And”? book coming out soon. Maybe tomorrow if I can do it overnight.

Karl: Absolutely. No, I think you totally can. You totally can.

John: That’s awesome, man. I love that. I love that. Well, you also just get out of your own way and just write it.

Karl: Exactly.

John: You know? And then just let it rip. And so, is this something that you’ve shared with coworkers in the past or they know that that side of you?

Karl: They totally know it and they knew it from the business side first because the business book when I wrote that, because that I was using those concepts at work. So my coworkers were really thrilled to support me and be able to look at the concepts. And I have colleagues right now that still tell me that they use the book when they do consulting with other clients as well. So it’s great. It’s great to know that. In fact, the business book is gonna end up with an outgrowth into a training certification on how to use the Enneagram system in organizations for all sorts of different organization development interventions.

John: Congrats, man. That’s awesome.

Karl: Be on the lookout for that. Yeah. That’s coming up next year. Yes.

John: That’s very cool. Very cool. And did you ever come across other people that enjoyed writing or I guess you had plenty of people that enjoyed reading ’cause they wanted to cheer you on along the way, but, you know, those people you just have a different relationship with work-wise than you do everyone else that you work with as well or did it matter much?

Karl: So since I wrote the business book and the children’s book, another one of my colleagues wrote a book on innovation as well, Stephen Kowalski. I don’t think I was his inspiration for doing it. I think he had his own inspiration for that, but yeah. So I see people doing that. I see people who have work that they’re doing and then maybe aren’t able to— if they find something, like some sort of light, or interest, or passion in their work that they can’t do 100% of the time, that they’re able to have that outgrowth into a book that is allowing them to get more to that 100% that they can’t get at work. And I really totally recommend that to anyone that if you’re not getting 100% of your fulfillment at work, but maybe there’s something that you can grow from, to do that. Just go into that.

John: No, I love that. That’s such a great concept. Yeah. I mean, if you’re not getting it at work, you can get it outside of work through your “and.” And if it’s writing something and whether it becomes a New York Times bestseller or wins it an award or anything, doesn’t matter. Like you’re doing it ’cause you enjoy it and you’re making a difference in somebody’s life, and especially yours most importantly.

Karl: Absolutely.

John: So, you know, that’s really why you’re doing it. That’s awesome, man. And so, do you feel like the writing side of you plays into work at all? I mean, I’m sure there’s gotta be some sort of writing or communication that happens in your job. So does that impact that?

Karl: You know, currently in my work and my role through my independent consultancy, I do a lot of executive coaching, which doesn’t really require me to do much work if you wanna look at it that way because if you’re doing all the work as an executive coach, you’re doing it wrong. The coaching should be doing all the work, right? So they should be doing all the writing. They should be doing all the accountability stuff and I just hold them accountable.

And then I do presentations and workshops. So there’s a little bit of writing that goes along in that. But again, it goes back to the I’d rather talk than text. So I would rather talk than write. So it really comes down to that. So yes, the writing can synthesize things and I really do like to have things to be short and sweet, and to the point, and not drawn out. And you’ll actually see that in the books that it’s not repeating the same concept over and over and over again. It’s one and done, and maybe bringing it back if it comes up in an overlap with something else.

John: That’s the thing I found when I was writing my book, was how I presented it had to be different than how you write the book ’cause when you’re on stage in front of an audience, you can adjust accordingly if they like it or don’t. You know, you unlock a secret level that now you know, whatever. But in the book, like if you didn’t like that chapter, I’m not sitting there telling you “Hey, you might wanna skip the next two if you didn’t like that one”, you know, type of thing. You know, the approach and the tone of the book, I guess, had to be a little bit different than when it’s coming from me in person.

And that’s something that until you have a team of people that know what they’re doing from the publisher side, then that’s what really helps on that side of things. Yeah, it’s cool to just flush out new ideas and just be like “Oh, wow. Yeah, okay.” They do sort of go hand in hand with each other like that, which is fantastic. That’s really cool. And then before you got into the writing, were there other hobbies that you had that maybe you shared with at work or was writing kind of the thing that cracked it open?

Karl: So one of the things that’s been throughout my entire life— and I think you touched on it at the beginning when we were talking about favorite musician, or band, or artist— singing has been a huge part of my life from my childhood. And Abba was really big. I grew up in Greece. My mom worked with a Swedish embassy, so that’s where Abba was like really infiltrated my life. And I would always be singing Abba stuff. We had songs and albums from, you know, first song, the last song. I was an only child, so I was the entertainment for the adults on many different things. And that’s when it would happen. And then I ended up joining choirs in middle school and Glee clubs in college, Rutgers Glee Club. And then I joined the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus and I sang with them for over 25 years.

John: Nice.

Karl: Yes. And hoping to go back when my schedule allows. So singing and music are a huge part of my life. And I actually do integrate them in my work because (A) I usually have some sort of song at the beginning of a workshop that aligns with the theme or the topic that we’re gonna be discussing to really generate a different way of creatively thinking about the topic because you’re engaging a different part of your mind. And the other thing was really funny. When I joined Genentech, one of the things that we had to do was we had to introduce ourselves. I think we had like 30 seconds to introduce ourselves.

And I introduced myself. Adele was big back then, so I introduced myself. I sang my introduction, which no one had ever done before. So I did the Hello introduction from Adele, and I explained a little bit about I’m an organization development consultant here to help and work with you. Yeah. So it was really, really well received and never done before or after.

John: Yeah, that’s incredible though ’cause why not? You know, like why not? And everyone remembers you. Oh, was that the singing guy? It’s less and less of the organizational development side of you. It’s more of the “and” side of you.

Karl: It’s the “and.”

John: And also too, how much singing, just those stories of it played out from when you were a kid all the way through to today and all the different jobs you had, and school, and all these different things that you did? Music and singing was there all along. That’s really important to remember that your skillsets change, your job changes, your title changes, the logo of the company you’re with changes, but the “and” is always, always, always there.

Karl: Exactly.

John: And that’s so cool to hear, man. That’s great. How much do you feel like it’s on an organization to encourage people to share that side of them or how much is it on the individual to just “Hey, I’m gonna sing my intro, I didn’t even ask for permission, I’m doing it”, you know, type of thing?

Karl: So I think the way that I’m always gonna be correct, just like any consultant will always be correct by saying the answer is it depends. It depends. It really depends on the culture of the organization. Like I probably couldn’t get away with doing it at a very, very buttoned-up, conservative organization. And I cleared it with my boss. I said, “You know, I’m new to this organization. What do you think?” She said, “Go for it.” And she had my back. And I think the other thing is really having a great relationship with your boss who has your back and will be looking out for you to make sure that doors are being open for you, that you’re not doing any missteps. Rachel was awesome with that.

John: And that knows that side of you.

Karl: Exactly.

John: You know, that knows your “and.” Like a boss that knows your “and” really matters.

Karl: And supports it and encourages it. Comes to your concerts. You know, bringing a whole group of people together to your concerts. That’s been amazing seeing colleagues come and support me by coming to the different concerts that we gave with the chorus. So to answer your question, it depends, and it’s really up to the person to initiate it. Don’t expect other people to draw that out of you. Go for it and then ask for forgiveness later or, you know, check for it and make sure that it’s gonna work because people don’t know. I mean, how would people know unless you put it out there first?

John: Amen, man. I agree totally. I mean, because we’re so permission-based for some reason, like we whisper in our ear this evil whatever, like you’re gonna get fired if you sing your intro at the—

No, you’re not.

Karl: Then maybe you’re not at the right place. Go somewhere where they want you to sing your intro or they’re encouraging it, and supporting it, and will give you a standing ovation for it. Yes.

John: Right? Yeah. Well, you know, they didn’t say that we could do that. Yeah. But they also didn’t say we couldn’t.

Karl: Exactly.

John: So you know, like maybe no one’s ever thought of it. No one’s ever done it. Like just do it, you know. And as long as you’re not inhibiting your ability or someone else’s ability to get their work done, then it’s fine, you know. Is it illegal or super taboo? Then maybe not. Don’t do that. But otherwise, let it rip. It’s awesome.

Karl: Yeah. Get that creativity out there. Use the outlet.

John: And it brings some emotion and some color.

Karl: And humanity. You’re made human. You’re not just another cog.

John: Exactly. No, no, I love that so much, man. That’s so good. So good. So do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe they have “and” that they are like “Ah, it has nothing to do with my job, so no one’s gonna care”?

Karl: My words of encouragement are if there’s some passion, if there’s some fire inside of you that’s not finding an outlet, give it the outlet, whether it’s gonna be at work or whether it’s gonna be outside of work. Give it that outlet because that’s what’s gonna inspire you, and drive you, and motivate you, and engage you, and allow you to do some of the stuff that may not be as exciting or stuff that you’re that passionate about. And you can get your passion through your “and” and then hopefully be able to integrate it into the less passionate stuff that you do to make that even more passionate too.

John: That’s exactly it right there, man. That’s exactly it. Because when you talk about singing, it’s always, always awesome. When you talk about work, sometimes it’s awesome, but sometimes it’s not.

Karl: Well, there’s some singing that’s pretty bad too, you gotta admit.

John: Well, I mean, but when you talk about singing, it’s great. I mean, I’m not a good singer for some reason. I can play an instrument. I can hear a pitch. I can hear out of tune. And when it comes out of my mouth, it is not good. So I don’t know why that is, but I can play instruments, I can do all that, I love music, but the singing is just not my thing. So there’s definitely bad singing, and I’m right there at the top of the list of that.

Karl: So this is another thing I say. People take personality inventories and say “Oh, you should be a librarian” or “Oh, you should be a salesperson.” Right? And the answer is “Yeah, right. Are you passionate about that? Do you aspire to that or are you gonna put the work in for it?” So someone who may have the “DNA” or personality to be the ideal whatever may not be passionate about it and somebody else that’s really passionate about it will do a far better job at it because they’re in it than the other person that’s naturally inclined to do it. So, go for it. Sing in the shower, sing in the car, sing karaoke.

John: Right? There you go. Yeah. And that’s what I tell people too. What I found from doing so many of these interviews is people wanna give themselves a label or they’re hesitant to rather because they’re like “Well, I don’t get paid to sing or I’m not a whatever.” And it’s like “Yeah, but I enjoy singing.” Well, that takes all the pressure off of being good ’cause it doesn’t even matter if you’re good. You’re doing it for yourself. So that’s awesome, man. Well, this has been so fun, Karl, but I feel like since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning of the show that we can turn the tables here, make this The Karl Hebenstreit Podcast. Thanks for having me on as a guest. I guess I booked myself, so never mind.

Karl: That’s awesome.

John: So what have you got for me?

Karl: All right, John. I know that you have a very strong affinity for dogs. I know you love dogs. They’re a passion of yours. I wanna find out what your favorite dog breed is and why.

John: Oh, wow. Okay. So my current dog is like a terrier mix. I did the DNA test and it came back as Chihuahua, Rottweiler, and then like 80% we have no clue. And I was like I want my money back ’cause this is clearly a terrier mix, but that’s always fun. You know, he’s like 32 pounds, 35 pounds. So he’s a dog, but he’s not like you’re gonna get your shoulder ripped out if he goes running, you know, type of thing. A Springer Spaniel, we had one as a kid as well, and he was super awesome. So I guess if I had to pick a specific breed, probably that, but the terrier mix has grown on me. They’re super fun dogs. They’re quick. They’re smart. They’re fun dogs.

Karl: All dogs are amazing. Absolutely.

John: No, for sure. Unconditional love all the time from dogs. If humans could have 1% of that, it would be an amazing place to be.

Karl: That would be a huge difference from what we have. Absolutely.

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Karl: All right. I’m also interested to find out, you’ve been doing 555 podcast episodes, what “and” have you been inspired to add to your repertoire based on a podcast that you did?

John: Oh, based on a podcast. Okay. Well, my ultimate dream is to have a show kind of like Mike Rowe’s Dirty Jobs where he goes around and does it. So I would fly to the Bay Area, and we would sing and do a children’s book and then do this interview. But also, I would do your “and” with you. And I think that would be a super cool show, just figuring out how to get that out there.

Karl: And paid for.

John: Yeah. And paid for. That would be the biggest part of it.

But you know, just to show the human side to all of us. But you know, I guess yoga might be one that I’ve gotten more into or mindfulness in general from speaking to a couple of people that have been on the podcast. So that might be an example. You know, I’ve picked up a couple of other “ands” just periodically, but not specifically from the podcast. But yeah, probably yoga, or mindfulness, or things along those lines that I wasn’t as open to before or hadn’t really learned much about before. So just being like “Oh, wow, okay, that seems interesting. Let’s learn more about this.” So I would say those.

John: I have one last question if you’re up to it.

Karl: Last one. It’s your show, man. I’m at your mercy.

John: All right, here it goes. What comedian inspired you growing up?

Karl: Ah, wow. So, I mean, as a kid, I grew up in the heyday of Saturday Night Live, so it was Dana Carvey, and Mike Myers, and all those. And then it transitioned into the David Spade, and Chris Farley, and Adam Sandler group. And then Jim Carrey came out within Living Color and all those, and the weigh-ins, and all that. And so, I grew up with watching that and reading Mad Magazine, and Cracked Magazine, and all that. But that’s improv or sketch. That’s different than standup. My first standup that I ever saw, it was a sixth grade slumber party and my older brother had Eddie Murphy Raw, the VHS cassette of Eddie Murphy Raw, which no kid should ever see.

And so, that was the first standup I ever saw, was us sneaking like a group of us at a slumber party watching Eddie Murphy Raw. But then, you know, as I got older, I mean, I’m sure like Seinfeld or Ray Romano and a lot of that was because they had the sitcom, so then you learn about them, and then you find out that they did standup, and then you learn about their standup as well. So, you know, probably early on, it was kind of that clean observational kind of humor and then got into Bob Newhart Hilarious, like some of the older genre, you know, super funny.

Karl: So really all across, all the different genres.

John: Yeah. I mean, you know, like Steve Martin, amazing. No one specific person. I guess just kind of like observational humor, I guess. Like nothing with an agenda. Like it was never anyone that has an agenda of I’m trying to get you to believe what I run. No, no. It’s more of like isn’t life funny and look at that or look at this and be like “Ah, I never thought about it that way” or whatever, you know, type of thing. So, those sort of things.

Karl: And we definitely need more of that. We need tons more of that to help us really understand, and appreciate life, and just get all the differences that are out there.

John: It’s a philosophy I feel like. They’re philosophers. As a comedian, you look at the world through a different lens, and you bring other people into your picture, and then you start to now see the picture that’s in my mind.

Karl: So you just described the Enneagram by the way. So you look at the world through a different lens, and you’re trying to bring them into yours as well as you understanding what their lenses are too.

John: Yeah, because I have to also meet you where you’re at.

Karl: Exactly.

John: Wow. Awesome. Okay, very cool. I’ll still start with the children’s book because that’s probably best for me.

Karl: I totally agree with that. And I think the other key thing that I would impart on people is the Platinum Rule versus the Golden Rule. So treat others the way that they want to be treated. So I think that’s one of the biggest learnings that people need to really tap into because there’s been so much emphasis on the Golden Rule, which is very me focused as opposed to other focused. And everyone doesn’t see the world the way that you do. And everyone doesn’t like ice cream or the same flavor of ice cream.

John: And those people are terrorists. Those are terrorists. No. No. I’m kidding.

Karl: On the no-fly list. Yes.

John: Exactly. That’s awesome. Well, no. Well, thank you so much, Karl, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This was really, really fun.

Karl: Oh, I had a blast. Thank you so much for having me, John.

John: Absolutely. And everyone listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Karl in action or maybe be sure to check out his books or connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click the big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. Thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 553 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work. It’s the answer to the question of who else are you besides the job.

And if you like what the show’s about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And’? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Melissa Romo. She’s the VP of Global Marketing at Sage and the author of the upcoming book, Your Resource is Human: How Empathetic Leadership Can Help Remote Teams Rise Above. It’s available for pre-order right now on Amazon. And now, she’s with me here today. Melissa, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Melissa: I’m so glad to be here, John. Thanks for inviting me.

John: Oh, this is gonna be a blast. I’m so excited. We met several years ago when I was keynoting a lot of the Sage user conferences. I knew you were writing the fiction books, but now to have the business leadership book as well is pretty awesome. So I’m excited.

Melissa: Yeah, I’m excited. It’s a completely different animal, a business book versus a novel. One thing I learned is business books require citations. And I have a 10-paged bibliography with 150 citations because you can’t make stuff up when you write a nonfiction book.

John: That’s true.

Melissa: You have to actually be factually correct. It really made me miss novel writing because, novel writing, you can just make it up.

John: You just make it up. Just make it up. And speaking of making it up, I got 17 rapid-fire questions for you, so you could just make ’em up. I’m ready. Here we go. Just make up the answers. All right. First one, favorite color?

Melissa: Blue.

John: Blue. Solid. Mine too. All right, we can keep going. No, I’m just kidding. Least favorite color.

Melissa: Least favorite color? Yellow.

John: Yellow. Okay. Yeah. Fair. And ooh, this a trick one. As a remote working advocate, talk or text?

Melissa: Oh, text.

John: Okay. All right.

Melissa: You know why? Because emojis are an amazing tool to build connection with people and to express yourself. There’s actually science behind emojis, and I’m a big emoji user. And my team, we’re really addicted to gifts in my team. So we’re on Microsoft Teams. You know, if someone new starts in the team, we say, “Welcome, Bob.” And then like there will be this outpouring of gifts.

John: Everybody waving and all that. Yeah.

Melissa: Everyone’s waving. There’s this like hugs coming, and hearts, flying and all this stuff. And you have to do stuff like that when you’re remote. Well, I know we’ll talk more about that later. But yes, so text, absolutely, because you can express yourself in kind of new and exciting ways.

John: All right. No, I love it. That’s awesome. How about a favorite Disney character?

Melissa: I like the little lobster, Sebastian, in little Mermaid. Is that what he’s in?

John: Yeah.

Melissa: Yeah. His musical number is one of my favorite musical numbers.

John: Excellent choice. I love it. That’s awesome. How about when it comes to puzzles, Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Melissa: Well, so I’m pretty addicted to Wordle. And if I’ve already done the Wordle, I will shift to Sudoku, but I do it on my phone. And you know, it kind of auto fills it in for you. So I try to do the Wordle. I will brag. If I get Wordle in the second guess. It goes on Facebook.

John: There you go. All right. Well, yeah, that seems like a bragging moment. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Melissa: Ryan Reynolds. Ryan, if you’re listening to this, I want you to endorse my book. A video is on the way to your marketing company and to your partners at Deloitte because I think you need me to make The Creative Ladder a success. More to come, everybody.

John: That’s amazing. You never know. You never know.

Melissa: You just never know. You have to put it out there.

John: Yeah, no, you really do. Toilet paper roll over or under?

Melissa: Oh, definitely over. I don’t understand anybody who puts it under. It’s so confusing to me.

John: Right? I think Ryan Reynolds puts it under. Just saying.

Melissa: I would let him do that.

John: All right, fair enough. Fair enough. All right. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Melissa: Oh, Star Wars definitely. I don’t think I’ve ever seen one minute of Star Trek. I don’t even know who the characters are.

John: Wow. Yeah, right. Okay. That works. That works. Your computer, more PC or Mac?

Melissa: Well, Mac. But whenever I know anybody who starts in a corporate job and they throw a temper tantrum because they need a MacBook from the company, the first thing I tell them is that all the corporate software really doesn’t play nice with Mac, and it’s just not worth a headache. So in my job, I love my PC, which is a Dell. And at home, I have a MacBook.

John: All right. How about ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Melissa: Cup definitely. Cones are really messy.

John: Yeah, yeah. No, totally. Do you prefer more hot or cold?

Melissa: I’m a sun seeker and I love the heat, so it’s definitely hot.

John: There you go. How about a favorite band or musician?

Melissa: I’ve been listening to a lot of Lauren Hill lately. Just getting back into the R&B, like the sort of 1990s R&B. I’m kind of into that. So Lauren Hill lately is favorite. And I love Ed Sheeran. Anything by Ed Sheeran, I’ll just listen to over and over again.

John: Yeah, he’s good too. And Ed, if you’re listening, collaborate with Lauren Hill and then Melissa will buy all of the albums.

Melissa: Boy, that’d be a bomb. Yeah.

John: That would be pretty bomb actually. How about a favorite number?

Melissa: Oh, well, I’ll say 11 because that’s the day I was born. I mean, can’t not like the day you were born, right?

John: Yeah. And it’s better than one. It’s two 1s.

Melissa: It’s two 1s. Right. Yeah.

John: That’s a great number. All right. How about when it comes to books for reading or listening, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Melissa: So I really prefer a real book. We even defected angrily from Audible, and I feel like I’m like the only person in the universe who is doing that because I just read an article last week that audiobooks are about to become a bigger revenue generator than all of Hollywood put together. So people are really listening to lots of audiobooks. For me, reading is a very visual activity. I like to look at how the words look on the page. I like to look at how the page look. I like the way books smell.

John: Yeah. The way it’s laid out. Absolutely. It’s an art.

Melissa: Exactly. It’s a very tactile design-centered experience for me. So audio books just don’t tick the box. And when I’m traveling, I will put things on my Kindle. And I have been known to buy a Kindle book that I already own in paper, which drives my husband up a wall, but I just can’t carry around books when I’m traveling. I’m stuck with my Kindle.

John: Gary Goldman has a great joke about how he bought Shawshank Redemption on streaming even though he owned the DVD because he didn’t want to get out bed to put the DVD in the thing. And his brother’s like “Yeah, but it adds up. Like you’re gonna lose all your—” And he goes “It only adds up if you add it up. Like if you don’t add it up, it’s not wasted money. Like just it’s another book.” Like whatever.

Melissa: Yup. I can relate to that. I was laying by the pool in a beautiful poolside Mallorca compound laying by the pool. And I had a book back in my room, which was like maybe like a 5-minute walk. And I just could not leave the poolside because it was an absolute exquisite afternoon. And so, I picked up my phone and I bought the book that was in my hotel room.

John: Love it. Love it. That’s so good.

Melissa: If my husband’s listening, I’m really sorry. I’ll do the dishes.

John: He didn’t know. He didn’t even know. That’s hilarious. Ryan Reynolds said it’s okay, so it’s all good. All right. We got two more. Two more. Favorite toppings on a pizza.

Melissa: So I love pineapple and ham. I love Hawaiian pizza.

John: Oh, okay. Yeah, I do too.

Melissa: I know it’s almost like Marmite. Either love it or hate it, but I think it’s amazing.

John: Yeah, no, I think it’s great. It’s not my go-to, but I’ll take it. Yeah, absolutely. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Melissa: I had an illness a couple years ago, which fortunately I’m past it. I’m healthy and everything’s fine, but I had a little bit of a serious illness going on. And a friend knitted me a scarf out of this fabric that looks like kind of a Tiffany lamp, like all these multicolors and it’s super soft. And I had that on night and day for the entire winter that I was being treated. And it’s still like the thing I pick up. As soon as the weather turns, I pick it up. I have it around my neck all the time. It’s beautiful.

And the most important thing about it is that my friend made it for me at a moment when I really needed her hug. Right? And that was kind of a great hug without being able to be with her. I love it. I love it. And then I would say a close second is this vase that I purchased in Lisbon while I was on a layover on the way to Paris.

John: Oh, okay.

Melissa: So it wasn’t even in the airport shop. I went into town into Lisbon to like a junk shop. And I just thought it was so beautiful with the rooster and these— it has these blue— it’s like hand painted porcelain little things. And so, I just was at a junk shop like waiting for my next flight and I thought “You know what? I’m putting that in my backpack.”

John: And I was gonna say to fly with that is even more impressive. And it wasn’t like you were on the way home. You were still going to somewhere else.

Melissa: No. No. I was in Paris, and we were in an Airbnb for 10 days. And the first thing I did when we unpacked is I went downstairs to the street in Paris and I bought myself a bouquet of ranunculus, which is my favorite flower. And I came back upstairs to the Airbnb, and I popped it into my vase. And my husband’s like “Well, you’re just moving it, aren’t you?” “Like you know I am.” So I’m all about quality of life.

John: That’s true.

Melissa: I need my vase, I need my flowers, I need my book.

John: Yeah. No. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, both of those are cool items that come with really powerful memories, so that’s awesome. So good. So good. So let’s talk writing and all of that. And I’m gonna probably have some PTSD from this, but it’s all good from my experience. But no, I’m kidding. It’s a journey. That’s for sure. And I guess you’ve written both fiction and non-fiction now. So I guess what’s the biggest difference there, I guess, besides the citations?

Melissa: The biggest difference is the novel, the story has to be completely invented. And so, what’s hard about a novel is you have to give yourself permission to lie, right? Because you’re making it up, right? Like none of these things actually happen. You are completely inventing the world. You’re making up their characters. You’re making up their dialog. And when you first start writing a novel, you really feel like you have to stick to like truth and facts. And I was writing a novel, a historical novel based on real history. And so, at the start of the process, I found myself trying to like write characters that I was finding in the history books.

And you know, I would find a character, like a person who was in some of the documentation about the subject I was writing about. And I was like “Oh, I’m gonna use this person and this is gonna be my character. And I’m gonna write exactly what this person said and what I’ve found in the history books.” And so, the release comes when you realize you don’t have to do that, right? And in fact, it’s better if you make it up. And so, what I think is really amazing about novel writing is I personally feel that novels are the most sophisticated, exciting art form that exists because you take just paper and words. So it’s very low tech, right?

You take paper and words. And if you are good enough as a writer, you can really transport your reader to another place, to another time. You can make them feel things. I mean, they do these brain studies when people are reading. And if somebody reads a very sad passage in a book, you can see the brain activity, right, reacting to that. So you are really making people feel things and experiencing things that it’s like virtual reality. It really is. I love orchestras, I love music. But you know, that’s oral. It’s something that comes into our ears and obviously makes us feel things, but it isn’t an out. It doesn’t quite bring us to this point of storytelling, right?

John: Yeah. I mean, they’re so simple, like you said. I mean, it’s paper and ink, and someone’s creativity, and then it moves you. And you know, a symphony is music on that way. But then you need 40 people playing the music and expensive instruments and all of this. You know, the book, it’s you reading it. And each person has their own experience. That was hard for me even with a business book, is I’m not sitting next to you. So it’s like “Hey, if you didn’t like that chapter, you might wanna skip the next one.” You know? I’m not there with you to—

Melissa: Well, you’re not there with them. This is the other thing that I find so exciting about books, is if I had one wish, you know, you always get this question in a trivia game or whatever— If you had one wish, what would it be? My wish would be time travel. Like I want to go back in time. I wanna know what it was like in the 1800s or whatever. On my shelf back here, I have Bram Stoker’s Dracula, right? Now, he wrote Dracula in— I think it was the 1870s. He wrote Dracula.

So you can read Dracula. And you know, he’s in the room with you, right? You’re reading his words. You’re reading his story. And you know, you’re back in the 1870s where he’s telling you the story about this vampire bat in Transylvania. And he’s an Irish writer, so he was writing it in Ireland, right? Telling you a story about Transylvania. And so, you know, for me, historical books are the nearest that I’m ever going to get to time travel. And that’s what’s so exciting for me about writing them and reading them.

John: That’s awesome. And so, have you always been a writer like when you were young and carried it forward or did it come back?

Melissa: No. I always, always, always. I mean, since I was 9 years old, I kept diaries. I wrote really insipid poetry when I was a student.

You know, I have all these like love poems and things like that hopefully no one ever finds them.

John: Ryan Reynolds, if you’re listening, they’re on their way.

Melissa: I love great poetry. I’ve just kept journals forever. And you know, the What’s Your “And”? question I think is really a powerful one for me because when I was 30, I think I was 36 and I was a new mom, I had two little babies— And I’ve been keeping journals now since I was 9 years old, so quarter century of keeping journals. And I had even been drafting a novel for 10 years that I knew I wanted to write. It was about Poland, about the time I lived in Warsaw, Poland when I was working over there. And I’ve been working on it.

But you know, I was in a big job. I was in American Express. I was a marketing director. I had two little babies at home. And there was no light at the end of the tunnel I had too many things— amazing, wonderful things in my life. I had a wonderful husband, wonderful children, wonderful job, no time to write. And I got in a taxi on July 14th, 2009. I will never forget. It was Bastille Day. And I had a beautiful breakfast with my friend who made me the scarf. And we talked about our dreams in life. And I said, “You know, one day, I wanna write a novel.” And then, you know, she’s like “That’s great. I hope you do.”

And then I got in a taxi. And on the way down to American Express’s headquarters in lower Manhattan, the taxi driver wanted to read my palm. And I’m not into all the Voodoo and everything. Like I don’t believe all that stuff. And I was like “All right, whatever.” You know, it’s a nice morning, I’ll go with it. Right? So I stuck my hand through the plexiglass. And then at every stoplight, you know, we stopped at Halston. We stopped at Canal Street. You know, down in Tribeca. Every stoplight, he was reading my palm. He was saying something else about me.

And he said a couple things that, you know, were kind of generic and he could have come up with them not knowing me. And then when we got close to the office, he said, “Oh, this line down at the bottom of your hand leading to your wrist, that says you’re a writer.” And when he said this to me, I thought he’s not saying I’m an artist, he’s not saying I’m creative, he’s saying I am a writer. And it was like this hand of God reached down into that taxi and hit me on the head and said, “What are you doing? Like you need to be writing. Like, you know, it’s all great your PowerPoints and you’re marketing everything, but you need to be writing.” Right?

And I got out of the taxi just stunned that he said that to me, right? And my heart was racing. You feel this moment when everything collides and you feel like you have to make a really important decision. And I ran up to a conference room and I called my husband. And it was, you know, 8:30 in the morning. And I called him at his office. And I was already very emotional. And I said, “I was in this taxi. And he read my palm. And he said I’m a writer. And I have to quit my job.” Right? It all just came flying out of me.

And I knew I would not write if I didn’t step back from my job. I needed something to go away. And it was 2009. So you know, Lehman Brothers had gone out of business. Everyone in the financial markets were being laid off. And it was really risky for both of us. Both of our jobs could have been on the line. And here I am calling him hysterical and saying I need to quit my job to write a novel. And you know, he would’ve been completely within his rights to say “Look, like pull yourself together. Go have a coffee. We’ll find a way for you to write novel.” But he said all— All he said— 3 words— “Go for it.”

John: Nice. Yes.

Melissa: I couldn’t believe I was hearing him. And I was like “Are you sure? Like you really are okay with that? Like this is a big risk for us.” He’s like “Just go do it. It’s clearly really important to you.” So I did. I quit. And this is the thing I want people to know who are listening and thinking about their “and.” When I resigned and I told people I was resigning to write a novel, nobody believed me. Right? Nobody believed me. And the email that said Melissa’s leaving the company to blah, blah blah said she’s gonna spend more time with her family, which is also true, right?

Like of course, I was gonna see a little bit more of my kids and everything, but that was not why I was leaving a very good job at a blue chip company, right? That was not why. But nobody really took me seriously. And that definitely hurt. I was a nobody. But for the most part, I wasn’t taken seriously. And then a weird thing started to happen the last couple of days I was at work before I finally left. People would pull me into their offices and say “You know, I love to dance. I’ve always wanted to dance on stage.”

And then someone else would say “You know, in my spare time, I paint. And I really wish one day I would have a gallery show.” And John, I think probably 10, 12, 15 people told me these stories secretly in hushed tones in their offices behind closed doors. So what that told me was, wow, we are all sitting on something really important to us that we are having a hard time finding ways to devote time to.

And the thing I would tell everyone listening is don’t leave it. Right? That’s why you’re alive. That’s what makes you feel alive. And cut any corners you have to in your life to give a little bit of time to that thing that makes you feel alive. Don’t put it off. I was very lucky that I was able to take a couple of years. And I did write the novel. And the novel did get published. And it is out there. So I kind of proved to everybody that I was gonna do it. The funny thing was I thought once I wrote it, it would be out of my system and I’d sort of go back to a job and be done. Then I drafted four more novels.

John: That’s incredible.

Melissa: I drafted four more novels and now the business book. Yeah. So I’m clearly a writer.

John: Yeah. ‘Cause right now people are like “When’s the next book?” And I’m like “Umm, it’s really hard. It’s really hard.” So, kudos to you. But I love that story so much for so many reasons. One is just the universe telling you— God telling you whatever you wanna say is—And he called you. I am a writer. You’re like I am a writer. Like I’m not a marketer. I’m not, you know, all these other things. I’m a writer. So maybe marketing’s your “and.”

Melissa: Yeah. Exactly.

John: That’s how I look at everyone that I have on the show. Who you really are is the hobby because that’s the thing that’s always with you. When you get promoted at your job, when you go to a different job, you’re still that thing. But then, you know, in the job title changes, the technical skills that you’re using changes, the technology that you use at your job changes. Like all that stuff is always changing, but your “and” or the container of “and”, if you will, is always there. And that’s the eye of the hurricane. That’s your source of identity and confidence and who you are.

So I am a writer and like I love that so much, and then the fact that like people were pulling you aside just quietly and closing the door to their office to tell you what really lights them up. That’s why I created this show because I’m like you shouldn’t have to close the door and say I like to dance. You should tell it. Like everyone should know I love dancing. Like I don’t have to be good at it. I don’t have to make money at it. I don’t have to like be on a show. Like I just like to dance. Like what’s up? And that’s so important to just feeling alive.

Melissa: It is. It is completely important. Yeah. And I hope everyone listening to this takes that to heart and don’t leave it. It is the eye of your hurricane. It is where your soul is. So spend time there. That’s where the richest life is gonna be.

John: It’s so important. And you know, not everyone can obviously quit their job and make it a revenue producing thing, but you can do it on the side. And it doesn’t have to be good. It doesn’t have to be amazing. It’s just I enjoy writing. I don’t need your permission or your judgment. I don’t even care actually because I’m doing it for me, you know.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And you know, the postscript to that decision was ’cause I was very lucky that we could do without my salary for the short term, but I did find out that I can’t only write because I’m somebody who’s very extroverted and I like to be with people, and writing is a very solitary activity, and it just wasn’t enough for me. So a beautiful thing happened in marketing, however, when I was out writing my novel. Content became very important, right?

Like the internet really matured, broadband matured, social media became a big thing. And suddenly, you had companies deciding that they need content operations and they need, guess what? Writers. And so, I went back into marketing as a content strategist for SAP Concur in the UK when I was living there. And it was kind of like, you know, close a door, open a window kind of thing. It’s like here I was back in marketing, but actually writing and doing the thing I loved to do.

And then I got an amazing opportunity at Sage because they called me and said, “Look, we wanna hire somebody to start a global content team. We don’t have a global content team, and we know we need one. You know, we’re a huge Footsie 100 software company, and we need someone to come and coordinate all this content.” And I was really nervous about taking the job ’cause I’d never done a job that big, but it was writing and creating content. And I thought “Wow, this is the jackpot. This is what I love to do. This is my “and” and it’s my job.”

John: Yeah. You’ve been exercising this muscle since you were 9. It’s like I was born for this. Like I’m ready for this.

Melissa: Yeah. So it was a great turn of event. So sometimes your “and” can become part of your daytime career. I mean not always, but sometimes it can. And I was looking for it. I was always looking for a way that writing could be a way I could make a living. I was always looking for it. And my hat is off to anyone who’s a freelance writer who manages to make a living with it because I did try that while I was writing my novel. I mean, I sold maybe two or three stories. I was being paid $40 a story. I mean, nothing, right? And I thought how do people live as writers, you know?

So when content was becoming more important for corporations, I thought “Oh, okay. Well, at least there’s gonna be a paycheck here.” And the first thing I did, John, when I came in and I started a team is I hired three ex-journalists who had lost their jobs because their media companies were going out of business. And I hired them into Sage to write for Sage, and a couple of them are still there.

John: That’s so great. It’s true though. I mean, these outside of work hobbies that you have give us a skillset whether it’s direct like in your case or maybe it’s indirect. The way you think, the way you see things, the way you look at the world, or at the very minimum it humanizes you. You know, I guarantee that people at Amex—Remember the lady that left to write a book? There’s so many other people that have left that company that they do not remember, but you are the lady that left to write a book.

I had a guy remember me 12 years after I left PWC as that’s the guy who did standup at night. And it was like he didn’t remember me for anything else, and my resume was pretty solid. All the hard work I was doing, he didn’t remember ’cause I never actually met him. He was in a different department, on a different floor. Yeah. Just that human side of all of us is so crucial. It’s so crucial in which leads into your book, you know, Your Resource is Human. And I guess how do you bring the human to the remote world?

Melissa: Emojis.

John: Emojis. That’s it. Emojis and gifts. I don’t even know how to say it right.

Melissa: I’m not kidding. I mean, it sounds sort of funny. But you know, it’s what they call the liminal moments in the workday is when you really build relationships. And those can be either in an office when you’re passing each other to water cooler or they can be on Microsoft Teams when you’re chatting back and forth. So, you know, the liminal moments can exist in either place. So you don’t have to be in an office to have them. The only thing you have to have in your mind when you’re working remotely is you have to just be a little bit more intentional, right?

Because in an office, you can sort of accidentally cross paths with someone and just chitchat and whatever. But when you’re at home, you have to sort of get up in the morning and say “You know, I haven’t been in touch with this person in a long time. I haven’t been in touch with that person, or I really wanna have more of a relationship with Jim, or I’m really wondering how Susie’s doing because I know last week was really hard for her.” Right?

So you need to just spend a minute or two in your morning thinking about the people around you in sort of the ecosystem you work in in your company and kind of make yourself a list on a little Post-it note. Like I’m just gonna reach out. I’m just gonna ping this person and just kind of see what’s going on. And you create your liminal moments right there, you know. You create your liminal moments.

John: I love that. Yeah. And it’s not necessarily talking about work. It’s just talking about them and pulling down the veil of who you really are. Yeah, I love that with the gifts and the emojis. It shows your personality. And it shows who you are and that’s awesome. You know, I love that. You know, that’s the human side of all of us, which is great.

Melissa: Most of the time, I’m remote. I mean, it’s been remote for 6 years. Before that, I was running freelance teams who were helping me with my novel and the design of my novel. So for better part of a decade, I’ve been running remote activity and working remotely with people. And so, the book came about because I had tea in Dublin with my good friend Frederique Murphy who’s an incredible author. She’s got a TED Talk. You know, she’s got a podcast. She’s got all these things. Frederique Murphy. Look her up.

She said to me at tea— She said, “Melissa, you have an important voice about leadership and people need to hear it. People need to know how you lead because the way you lead is different. Especially with remote work, there are things you do that support your team that are unusual and are actually making your team a really strong team.” So she kind of nudged me to write this book. And I wrote a book proposal for the idea of the book. And I thought to myself. There was a publisher I was pitching it to.

I’m like there’s no way this publisher is gonna buy this book because there were a bajillion books about remote work coming out. Like every 5 minutes, there was a new book about remote work. And I thought the last thing the world needs is another book about remote work. But to my surprise, the publisher did buy it. And it was the first time I was actually working with a publisher because the novel was self-published.

After blood, sweat, and tears of trying to sell it to a publisher, I published it myself. And the business book is being published by Practical Inspiration Publishing in the UK. And I was completely shocked that they bought it, but they did buy it. And the novel took me 15 years to write beginning to end, and the business book took me 5 months.

John: Wow. Yeah.

Melissa: That’s what happens. And there were 35 interviews, 25 endorsements, 150 citations, 60,000 words to get done in 5 months. And someone at work asked me how did you pull this off while you were still holding down a job, and I sort of joked and I said, “Well, my kids are totally unsupervised to start with. I haven’t seen my husband in like weeks.”

John: One of them has a tattoo on their face now.

The other one is like has a mohawk. It’s like whatever. Like it’s fine. But kudos to you. Like that’s awesome. And everybody listening, you could pre-order the book. Your Resource is Human by Melissa Romo. You could check it out on Amazon right now. And if you’re listening after April, then you can just straight up get it, and you don’t even have to wait.

Melissa: Yeah. April 3rd. It will be out in Kindle and paperback. And I will be recording an audio version. So sometime in December, there will be an audio version out as well because audiobooks we know are about to overtake Hollywood.

John: Right. Exactly. Exactly. No. Well, this has been so much fun, Melissa. I’m so excited to have you be a part of this and kudos to you on all your success, but I feel like I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning of this show. So it’s only fair that I turn the tables and make this The Melissa Romo, Your Resources Human Podcast. And thanks for having me on your first episode. I appreciate it.

Melissa: Of course, John. We really wanna get to know the human side of John Garrett.

John: Oh, boy. Oh, no.

Melissa: Given that we’re recording this 5 days before Christmas, I’m going to ask you a couple of holiday-related questions. So, real tree or fake tree?

John: Yeah, real tree all day. It’s the smell and the quirkiness of it. Like fake trees are too perfect. And I know there’s the nature side of it and you’re not supposed to cut down. I don’t know. If all things equal, a real tree I guess.

Melissa: I’m with you. I’m with you. Sweet potatoes or Brussels sprouts?

John: Oh, sweet potatoes. Anything but Brussels sprouts like pretty much. So like if you would have said Brussel sprouts or, I would have said whatever’s next. Punched in the face, yes, that. And sweet potatoes are also great, so yes that.

Melissa: Yes. Yes. They are great. So, skiing or snowboarding?

John: Snowboarding. There’s too many X, Y, Z axes going on in skiing like your ankles, your knees, your everything. Like in snowboarding, it’s pretty much just make a fist so you don’t break your wrists. And then if things are going weird, just sit down and you’re fine.

Melissa: Okay. You sound experienced at this, John.

John: Well, living in Colorado, I mean, you have to go a handful of times or else you can’t live in Colorado anymore. They actually ask you to move out. I know people that go like 200 times in the winter. Yeah, it’s crazy. But yeah, I’m like, you know what, I feel like four or five times in a year is good.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah, that’s cool. Well, we love mountains. My kid is actually applying to UC Boulder.

John: Oh, okay.

Melissa: He loves the school, loves the school. But also, he’s a huge skier. So yeah, we’re waiting to hear back.

John: Wants to hang out with Deion Sanders. Is that what’s going on now? Yeah, I’m a huge college football fan.

Melissa: Oh, is Deion an alumni there?

John: Well, no, he’s the new college football coach there, so everybody is like excited—

Melissa: Oh, he is. Oh, my gosh.

John: …about wanting to go play football there now.

Melissa: I didn’t know. Wow.

John: So, yeah.

Melissa: That’s huge.

John: So maybe they’ll be good again.

Melissa: That’s huge.

John: Yeah, we’ll see.

Melissa: Yeah. Maybe they’ll be good again. Last one. And in my book, the most important, white chocolate or dark?

John: Oh, boy, this is a tricky one. This is a tricky one. I think I’ll go dark chocolate. I don’t know if I answered properly. But yeah, I think I’m gonna go dark chocolate only ’cause you can also drink it, so it’s more versatile—

Melissa: That’s true.

John: …I feel like.

Melissa: I always lean back on the tannins. I always say “Well, it’s heart healthy. So I can have as much as I want.”

John: Right?

Melissa: Yeah.

John: I’m doing this for myself. This is for health. My doctor said.

Melissa: Right. I need it. So that’s all I got for you, John. So we got to know you.

John: No, no, I appreciate it, Melissa. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This was so great.

Melissa: I had a great time. Thank you, John.

John: Everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Melissa outside of work or her books or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And don’t forget to pre-order the book, Your Resource is Human, on Amazon right now. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture and don’t forget to check out What’s Your “And”? as well. Maybe it’s a buy one get one type of thing. But thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread.

Welcome to Episode 551 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. Like who else are you? And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every weekend. And this week is no different with my guest, Nick Sinclair. He’s the founder of TOA Global out of the Gold Coast in Queensland, Australia. And now, he’s with me here today. Nick, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Nick: Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

John: This is gonna be a blast. I’m so excited for this. It’s gonna be so much fun talking snowboarding. But before we get into it, I got 17 questions that get to know Nick out of the gate. Hope you’re buckled in and ready. This is an easy one, I think. A favorite color.

Nick: Blue. Definitely blue.

John: Yeah. Mine is the same. How about a least favorite color?

Nick: Brown.

John: Brown.

Nick: I mean, definitely brown. Yeah.

John: That is the least of the least favorite colors. It’s by far the worst one that I get on this every time. Are you more talk or text?

Nick: Definitely talk.

John: Definitely talk. Yeah. It just gets things faster I feel like. I don’t know. Most of the time. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Nick: Any of the Australian ones.

John: Okay.

Nick: I love the Aussies going overseas out of the ditch and doing well. So yeah, pretty much any Aussie one that’s made it.

John: That’s fantastic. I love it man. I love it. How about— Ooh, this is a good one. Toilet paper roll, is it over or under?

Nick: Over.

John: Over.

Nick: 100% over.

John: Yeah. Yeah. I wasn’t sure if in Australia it was like the reverse ’cause it’s the southern hemisphere, but yeah. No, no, no, it’s not. How about a favorite movie? Any movie at all of all time.

Nick: Oh, there’s so many of them. The #1 for me is the Lion King though.

John: Oh, really? Okay.

Nick: Yeah. Hakuna matata.

John: I love it, man. That’s great. Wow. So good. Okay. How about when it comes to puzzles? Sudoku, Crossword, or a Jigsaw puzzle?

Nick: None.

John: None.

Nick: Neither.

John: I don’t have time for that. There we go.

Nick: Not my thing.

John: Right? I got a job. That’s a puzzle enough. There you go. Just play Lion King again. Let’s do it. All right. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Nick: I’m gonna answer that again. None. Neither.

John: None. Neither. Okay.

Nick: I’m not a fan of either.

John: Yeah, no, fair enough. Fair enough. This one you have to answer. PC or a Mac?

Nick: Oh, definitely PC. Next question.

John: Right. I don’t get Macs either. Like I’m not even allowed in the Mac store. I don’t think.

Nick: I’m not smart enough to run one.

John: Right? How about more early bird or a night owl?

Nick: Used to be early bird, but now I’m a night owl.

John: Oh, really? Interesting. Normally, it’s the other way around. Okay, good for you. How about ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Nick: Cone. Waffle cone all the way.

John: Waffle cone. You’re even upgrading. Okay. All right. I like that. Fancy. All right. Do you prefer more hot or cold?

Nick: Definitely the cold. Love it. Love the cold.

John: Yeah. As a snowboarder, I figured that would be the case. You never know. In the accounting space, a balance sheet or income statement?

Nick: Balance sheet.

John: Balance sheet. Oh, okay. All right. You can’t hide anything then.

Nick: No.

John: There you go. We’ve got four more. Favorite sports team.

Nick: Ooh. I mean, I’m in Australia, so most probably wouldn’t know about it, but any rugby league team or any Aussie team that’s gonna battle with any other country.

John: Oh, okay. All right. All right. There we go. So rugby mostly then. All right. But who’s your team then?

Nick: Well, in the NRL, it’s called the National Rugby League, it’s the Gold Coast Titan. So it’s the local team. Any team that play in my state, big fan of them.

John: You’re all four. I love it, man. I love it. How about a favorite number?

Nick: 4.

John: Yeah. Is there a reason?

Nick: No. I can’t remember why. I love it. I just love 4.

John: Yeah, no, that’s a unique number. I like it. When it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or the real book?

Nick: The real book. I’m real book all the way.

John: Yeah.

Nick: I read one every 2 weeks.

John: Oh, really? Impressive man. Good for you. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Nick: The favorite thing I have is kids.

John: Kids. Really? Okay. And how old are they?

Nick: 12, 13, and 14.

John: Holy moly. Bang, bang, bang. There you go.

Nick: Yeah.

John: Nice. That’s fun. Very cool. That’s awesome. They keep you busy, I’m sure. Do they come out to the slopes with you?

Nick: Yes.

John: Nice.

Nick: Well they don’t have a choice.

John: They don’t have a choice. Right. That’s the thing. Like when I ask people about their “ands” or when I’m speaking at conferences, I’m like when you say family is not an “and”, it’s what do you do with your family that you drag the kids along to.

Nick: Experiences.

John: That’s exactly it. It’s the snowboarding that I don’t care if they want to or not. I want to and you’re coming. So here we go. Like that’s the “and.”

Nick: Oh, I say they don’t have a choice. I mean, they love going there, but they’d rather be on a beach.

John: Right. Right. You know what? When they’re adults, they can do all the beach they wanna do. And we’ll do the beach on occasion. Don’t worry about it. How’d you get started in snowboarding?

Nick: I didn’t until I was 19 to be honest. So I went to New Zealand with a bunch of my mates. We were 19. We 3 guys, 3 girlfriends. We all went over there. And we went to Queenstown, probably the coolest town in the world, and went snowboarding for a few days, learned it there and just got hooked.

John: That’s very cool. And so, like do you have some like favorite places that you’ve snowboarded or— I mean, I’m sure the one in Australia is probably more that you go to regularly.

Nick: Yeah, Australia’s easier because of winter. But to be honest, Australian snow is no good when you ski overseas.

John: Oh, okay. Okay.

Nick: You know, Japan, Colorado, like the powder and the snow there is phenomenal compared to the ice tracks that we have in Australia.

John: Oh, okay. Got it. Okay. ‘Cause I was gonna say what’s the difference. Yeah.

Nick: Yeah. So Japan is probably my favorite. It’s just crazy. It’s just so good. But yeah, anywhere outside of Australia that I’ve been has been amazing.

John: That’s incredible. That’s too bad. But I mean, I guess you get to practice and then you can appreciate it more.

Nick: You still have fun. It’s just not the level that, you know— We get in Australia, you know, call it 2-3 meters of snow. In Japan, they get that like overnight. They get 20 meters of snow.

John: Right. Right.

Nick: It’s hard to compare. Like it’s just so hard to compare.

John: But like you said, it’s still fun. Yeah. And that’s the thing. Like when I talk to people, it’s like when you’re talking about snowboarding, it’s always awesome whether it’s in Australia on ice tracks or it’s in Japan, or Colorado, or Canada, or whatever. It’s always fun. When you’re talking about work, sometimes it’s fun, but sometimes it’s not. So that’s why it’s cool that the “and” always brings joy. Then that’s awesome to hear and yeah. And you have a trip coming up soon, right?

Nick: In a week’s time, I’ll be going to Big White in Canada for at least 2 to 3 weeks. I’ve got another couple of weeks. I’ve gotta go to our Fort Worth office, so I’ve got 5 weeks away from home. So three to four of them will be in snow too. Definitely already confirmed at Big White. I’ve got accommodation and everything. So a couple of weeks after that, I’ll do some work in place. Maybe Utah. Maybe Colorado.

John: Good for you, man.

Nick: And then find my way back to Fort Worth.

John: Yeah. Well, if you come to Colorado, let me know. I’ll get my snowboard out.

Nick: Will definitely.

John: So that will be great. That’s awesome, man. And I guess do you feel like there’s a skillset from snowboarding, that you are able to bring to work?

Nick: I think it’s definitely focus because if you take your mind off and you wander, it’s easy to hit an edge and then suddenly you’re tumbling down or running into a tree or— Yeah.

John: Right. Or a person.

Nick: Yeah. Taking people out.

John: Right? And that’s in the office. That’s not even on this. No, no. But you’re right. I mean, the focus is totally—At no point during any of our schooling did anyone say, you know, “Hey, go learn how to snowboard. It will give you better focus to be better at your job.” But it clearly does. That’s an excellent one right there. And I would imagine a little bit of patience ’cause you’re not good for a long time.

Nick: Yeah. You’re always learning.

John: Yeah. You’re always learning.

Nick: What am I doing? 22, 23 years now being snowboarding. And you know, there’s still a lot to learn. Like I’m still amateur in many ways.

John: Right. It’s like, man, I’m doing great. And all of a sudden, some 8-year-old kid goes down backwards on one leg and you’re like “What? Like no.”

Nick: Hell. Hell.

John: Right? It’s amazing. But that’s cool, man. And is snowboarding something that you talk about with coworkers or do people know about?

Nick: Yes and no. For, me it’s my way away. It’s the only place you can be with other people, but it’s just you in the mountain. There’s no mobile phone. There’s no technology. So for me, it’s sort of my escape. People know that I love it. I do talk about it probably too much in some ways, but it is my place where I go so people know when I’m away and I’m literally not on technology, which is not often. They’re like he must be on the mountain because he’s not annoying us at work.

John: That’s great. “Hey, Nick, when are you going on that snowboarding trip again? We all collected our money to pay for you to actually go.”

Nick: They’re happy to get rid of me.

John: But there’s so many layers to what you just said. I mean, first of all, that it’s just you in the mountain, which is awesome. So you can quiet your mind. You can just unplug. And then that side of it as well where you’re not on the phone, you’re not on email, you’re not able to respond work. So you’re literally just I can’t do work out here.

And that’s important to have that time to just unplug, like you said.

Nick: Yeah. I think the other part of it is with the mountain, particularly when you haven’t been to a mountain that often or you haven’t been there for a while, you don’t know what’s coming up.

John: Yeah.

Nick: As you know, with a lot of the runs is that suddenly you can turn black, and steep, and heavy. And you know, when I go to the snow fields in summer and I look up and I’m like no way would I go down that.

John: Right.

Nick: But you don’t know. And when you’re going down, it’s too late to pull out and you can’t walk. You’re like you committed. So it’s just like you just gotta buckle up, and you gotta lock in and just go.

John: Yeah. Right? I mean, it’s like we’re going. So we’re either walking down this thing or rolling down this thing or we can go down on the board. So let’s try that one. That’s great, man. And it is cool that you do share that side of you. And I don’t think that there’s too much. I think it only becomes too much if you’re not getting your work done or you’re inhibiting other people’s ability to get their work done, which clearly you’re not as the founder of an organization. You know, that’s not your goal. So, yeah, I think that that matters. It humanizes you, so people appreciate that I would imagine.

Nick: Yeah. 14 Definitely. I think people want to know about people outside of work. And I think it’s not something that people really talk about. But if you really wanna build that connection, you do need to understand that. I think that knowing your “and” is such a key thing.

John: It’s just a little bit below surface level, but not like I don’t even know your whole story, but just like what lights you.

Nick: It’s a good conversation starter. It’s a great way to enter into, I suppose, a more meaningful and deeper connection.

John: No, that’s a great point. And as the founder, like how important do you think it is that people have an “and”, one, but then, two, if they do, to share it?

Nick: This is an interesting one ’cause a good friend of mine who ran a really successful business in New Zealand once said to me— He said, “You know, you’re a boring person. You got nothing else outside of work.” He was quite honest with me. He goes “Nick, you know, all you have is work. And when you sell and you don’t have work, what will you have?”

John: Yeah.

Nick: Because I didn’t necessarily have an “and.” And you know, his name was Phil Richards. He sold a significant software, payroll software. And it hit me. And I’m like “You know what? I really don’t have anything else outside of work.” He actually said to me “You need to be more interesting.”

John: Exactly.

Nick: Which sort of was leading down to you don’t have an “and.” Like I got into triathlons then. But you know, I still do a bit of it, but it’s more— Snowboarding was my thing. I thought about that. I’m like I do need to become a more interesting person and that means different experiences and having a passion that isn’t just work and my family.

John: Right. Yeah. Something for you individually. Man, God bless that guy. He’s my hero. But it’s true like, you know. And do you feel like life and work is different after having an “and” now?

Nick: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I go on a lot of experiences with my family. So we’re lucky in Australia we have holidays every 3 months basically for school. So I’m all about creating experiences. We’re always doing those sorts of things. But again, that was not something for me. So the snow trips that I plan now are really my time. You know, it’s creating a more interesting version of me. It’s refreshing and re-energizing. And so, yeah, I definitely do. I 100% think it’s important. It’s made me a better person in many ways.

John: I love it, man. It’s so cool to hear that it’s not just like some theory that I made up, that it’s legit, real. And it’s not necessarily hard. It’s just not simple I guess or it’s simple, but not easy or whatever. I don’t know. But it’s not rocket science here. It’s just you have to be intentional with making time to do it and having a good friend point it out to you and then being honest with yourself. And how much do you feel like it’s on an organization to create that space for people to share and encourage it or how much is it just on the individual to just jump in and be a part of it?

Nick: To be honest, I think it’s both. I think the company needs— And as you know, if you wanna drive culture, it needs to be led. It does need to be driven by the company. If the company does that, I think the individuals are more open to expressing who they really are. And I think that that is up to the individual to really do that, but they really need that permission and encouragement from the company. I don’t think an individual can do it unless it’s acceptable and I suppose driven as part of the culture.

John: Yeah. They’re like build the sandbox and then everybody can go play inside. You know, these are the lanes. Stay in the lanes. Everything’s cool. ‘Cause we’re so permission-based I feel like, especially in like the professional world where it’s “Well, they didn’t say we could do that.” And I’m like “Well, they didn’t say we couldn’t, so like why don’t we just do it? Like it seems fine, you know.”

And 99.9% of the time, it’s awesome. And you know, leadership’s is like “Ah, we never would have thought of that; cool, let’s do it everywhere; ’cause we’re busy running the company, I’m glad you guys thought of that”, you know, type of thing. You know, it’s never “Oh, I talked about my hobby and then I got fired.” It’s like “What? What are you talking about?” Provided your hobby’s not illegal, you know. It’s like “Okay, well, now we have reason to talk about that.”

Nick: Yeah.

John: That’s super cool, man. And so, I guess do you have any words of encouragement for anybody’s listening that maybe has an “and” that they feel like, well, no one cares ’cause it had nothing to do with my job?

Nick: Yeah. Look, I think, ultimately, just do it. Like I think the more you can get to know people and the culture is one that where people are interested genuinely in people, I think the more winning culture you build. So for me, it’s about just do it. You’ve got nothing to lose and everything to gain.

John: Yeah. I love that, man. It’s so true ’cause it is how business happens. It’s human-to-human interaction here. You have to know each other. It just makes things better.

Nick: Yeah, agree.

John: Yeah, I love that, man. Well, this has been so much fun. And before we hit the slopes together and hang out for a whole day ’cause those chairlift rides aren’t necessarily short, I feel like it’s only fair that we turn the tables and you get to question me now to make sure that you want to hang out. So we’ll make this The Nick Sinclair Podcast. Thanks for having me on as a guest and yeah. So I’m all yours, man. Whatever you got.

Nick: Yeah. Look, I think one question I have, which is— I mean, you obviously have done comedy for a long time. How do you bring humor into the workplace?

John: Oh.

Nick: With knowing boundaries of where you may or may not offend people because obviously certain humor may offend some people. So how do you bring that humor and fun into the workplace without offending people?

John: Yeah. No, that’s a great question ’cause at a comedy club or at a theater, people came for comedy. So if you’re gonna get offended, well, you came. I don’t know why you’re here. But at work, everyone has to be there. I guess I would look at it more as personality. Like how would you bring your personality to work? How would you bring some color to work? How would you bring just something that’s unique? It doesn’t have to be hilarious ’cause like comedy is very different than humor. Like comedy is a laugh every 5 to 10 seconds. Like, you know, bang, bang, bang. Like sharp humor is just is not nearly as sharp I guess.

And a good friend of mine, Andrew Tarvin, he has a great TEDx talk on this and has a book out about it and speaks on it as well. And he and I differ ’cause I don’t think everyone can be funny. And I think that eventually the earth will run into the sun before we’ll be able to teach you how to be funny. You know, there are just some people, you know, the people that you meet where they tell a joke and then they get to the punchline and they forget the punchline. And you’re like “That’s the only part you had to remember. Like why did you— Like the one thing you had to remember and you forgot it.”

So I think I would say just more personality. Like how do you just let more of you out? And then that comes across in the same way as humor because people will smile, you know. And so, just don’t feel so constrained. And then by letting more of you out, I don’t think you’re gonna cross the line of offending people because you’re not trying to be funny or trying to do comedy. You know, you’re just being more you. And on occasion, sure, there are people that just don’t like you, but you can’t control that at all. So just be more you and I think more people will like you. You’ll be more authentic. But also, it’s like a magnet. Like more people wanna be around that and work with that type of thing. So I don’t know if that answers your question or if I dodged it.

Nick: Yeah. No, it does. It does. Another one I’ve got is around accounting firms. I mean, the world I live in, there are two we serve every day. They’re quite pro— I call it professional, but very as much now. But there’s more and more what I call modern accountants coming through. But it’s still a profession that people expect professionalism.

John: Yeah, it’s stodgy.

Nick: Yeah. I’ve noticed, since I talk about snowboarding, I’ve connected with so many more people that do snowboard and we’ve got common interests. How do you bring your “and” into your client relationship and sales process so that you could build common ground? You know, we’re taught how to sell, but we’re not taught about how to bring out ourself and really attract people that are like us.

John: Yeah. And I mean, when I work with organizations to help them implement What’s Your “And”?, just because you’re an accounting firm doesn’t mean you have to act like an accounting firm. Just because you’re a law firm doesn’t mean you have to act like a law firm. Engineering company, you don’t have to— You know, like you don’t have to act like it. You can be whatever you want to be and then “Oh, but I might turn some people off.” Great. They weren’t gonna be your client anyway. They were gonna be huge pain in your butt. So you know, you’d rather find out now and let them know. And so, if I were to take a proposal that you submitted and scratch out your firm’s name from it, can I tell that it’s really a proposal from your firm or is it just the same as all the other proposals that are in the stack?

And you know, if there’s ways that you can maybe in the bio part of it of who’s gonna work on the project, here’s a picture of them on the slopes with their snowboard, and if they don’t pick you because you had a picture of you snowboarding or in your bio you say that you love to snowboard, then they weren’t your client anyway. That’s not the right fit. But I’m gonna tell you that 9 times out of 10, you’re gonna find your fit better that way than have people just reject you because of that. And I feel like more organizations now with the ESG stuff and everything, like they care about how you treat people and that there’s humans here on the other side. That’s a big piece of it, is behind the job titles, a human being. Inside that human is a soul and like what lights that soul up? And it’s not more accounting. That’s not what lights your soul up.

I mean, you’re the founder of an organization and it’s still not that. It’s snowboarding. And so, it’s just bringing more human to it. So maybe it’s the picture, maybe it’s in the bio, maybe it’s going after clients. Like if you love snowboarding, it’s going after snowboard manufacturers, it’s going after snowboard stores, it’s going after the ski resorts. Like then you’re hanging out with the coolest people you know. And you know way more about that than somebody who loves cats. Because when you get down to it, I mean, accountants like to think that they’re all unique, but it’s a commodity. I mean, it’s just not rocket science here. The work isn’t the hard part, and someone down the street can do the same. So you have to differentiate yourself. You have to. And turn some people off so you can turn a bunch of people on.

Nick: Yeah. Love it.

John: And that’s you. I mean, that’s here I am, you know. And I think people gravitate towards that.

Nick: Yeah, I agree. I’m gonna hijack one more question since this is now my podcast.

John: Right.

Nick: This is not your first episode. It’s obviously— It’s 550 something from memory.

John: Yeah. You were 551. Yeah. Yeah.

Nick: 551. So what is the strangest “and” you’ve had or you’ve heard, even if it’s not on an episode, that someone’s told you? What is the strangest one that they’ve told you is their “and”?

John: You know, and all of them are like so cool to me. Even ones that I’ve never heard of, you know, where I’m like “I don’t even know what that is.” Like pickle wall. And I’m like “What?” I had to Google it. I had to be like “What is this?” And it’s like slow tennis with a wiffle ball or something. I don’t know. Like kiteboarding. I was like “All right.” Probably the most unique one that I haven’t had like anyone else that I’ve come across was stained glass. Like a woman in Tennessee who she makes stained glass windows and art pieces.

Nick: Oh, wow.

John: Which is awesome, right? Because it’s like somebody’s gotta make ’em. She just loves doing it. And what’s even cooler about her is she does a lot of bookkeeping work. MB Raimondi is who it was. And she got the art studio as her client after she started there. She started learning, taking lessons there, and whatever. And then now she does like the books for some of the artists as well as the studio. So she got business out of doing her “and”, which is even better. But that’s definitely a unique one that it’s not like you come across that every day type of thing. So that’s definitely a cool one. Well, thank you, Nick, for being a part of this. It was so fun having you be on. What’s Your “And”? So, thanks.

Nick: Thanks for having me. It’s always enjoyable chatting with you.

John: Everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Nick out on the slopes or maybe connect with him on social media, you can go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re in the page, please don’t forget to hit that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture and don’t forget to read the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 549 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work. It’s asking the question who else are you besides your job title.

And really quickly, before we get into the episode, I wanted to plug Michael Puck’s globaldogart.com. Michael was a guest on the podcast. Dog photography was his “and.” And he’s partnering with other dog photographers all over the world to create globaldogart.com where 100% of the proceeds go to Save 1 Million Dogs by 2030. And he says that shows that dogs foster social connections amongst people, promote trusting relationships in business settings, and just pictures of dogs increase our well-being and reduce stress, so check out globaldogart.com and help save some dogs. And get some cool pictures in your office while you’re at it.

And don’t forget to check out the book of What’s Your “And”? at whatsyourand.com. And also, don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest Orumé Agbeyegbe Hays. She’s the CEO of Hays CPA in New York City and was named one of the 25 most powerful women in accounting by CPA Practice Advisor. And now, she’s with me here today. Orumé, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Orumé: Thank you for having me, John. It’s a pleasure to be here.

John: This is gonna be so much fun. But before we jump in here, I have 17 rapid-fire questions. Get to know you on a new level here. So let’s start. I think this is an easy one maybe. A favorite color.

Orumé: Favorite color, well, I’m actually wearing two of my favorite colors today. It’s pink and blue. So that was very easy.

John: Oh, very easy. All right. How about a least favorite color?

Orumé: Least favorite color? I would say maybe gray because it’s kind of bland, you know.

John: Yeah. And that’s the color I’m wearing, so perfect.

Orumé: No. I’m sorry.

John: No, I’m teasing. I’m teasing you. That’s all good. Do you have a favorite Disney character?

Orumé: I don’t have a favorite, but I will say I like the Lion King. Does that count?

John: Oh, yeah.

Orumé: I like all of them. All the characters.

John: All of the characters. Absolutely. No, that’s a great pick. That’s an excellent pick. I’ll take it. How about when it comes to puzzles? Sudoku, Crossword, or a Jigsaw puzzle?

Orumé: Crossword because I used to play Crosswords when I was much younger. I don’t play it as much any longer, but Crosswords. Yeah.

John: All right. I’m impressed. I like it. Are you more of a talker or a texter?

Orumé: Well that one is difficult. It depends on who I’m interacting with, you know. There are some folks who, you know, it’s like I can’t BS on the text any longer. Well, I just get on the phone and get it over with. And then other times, it’s like I’m gonna do the texting. I’m like you don’t wanna face that person. It can be an avoidance and it can also be that is text. That is half and half I’ll say.

John: Half and half. I’ll take it. I’ll take it. Do you have a favorite actor or an actress?

Orumé: My favorite actress right now is Viola Davis ’cause like she is the bomb. She’s really something else. Everything she does is— It’s like she shines. And she’s someone that I look up to.

John: So good for so long too. Absolutely. And that’s a trick question ’cause you have the acting background as well. I was gonna say you, but no, no, it’s all good. How about— ooh, that’s an important one— toilet paper roll, over or under?

Orumé: I do over.

John: Over. Yeah. Yeah.

Orumé: Yeah.

John: Okay. Fair enough. Some people really, really, really, really care. That’s funny.

Orumé: Me, I’m like whatever. It’s like just get it in there. Whatever.

John: As long as it’s there. Exactly. Exactly. How about more Star Wars or Star Trek?

Orumé: Star Trek.

John: Star Trek? Okay.

Orumé: Yeah. Because, again, I had a lot of older brothers and my brothers were into it, so I got into it as well.

John: Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Is your computer more of a PC or a Mac?

Orumé: Well, right now more of a PC, although I am with Mac family. My very first one, I still have my old Mac, which I use sometimes. And then all of my other products are Apple, you know. I got all of the other stuff. So I still use a Mac. But for work, it’s all PC.

John: Sure. So little both. I’m impressed. All right. All right. How about ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Orumé: Well, it depends on if I’m out and about or if I’m at home. If I’m out and about, absolutely it needs to be a cone. If I’m home, then I’ll go with a cup.

John: Yeah, because then it’s extra scoops at home.

Orumé: Exactly.

John: Exactly. I see what’s going on here. I see. I see. How about balance sheet or income statement?

Orumé: Income statement annually. If I’m looking at it, if I wanna do a longer period, then I’ll do the balance sheet.

John: There you go. How about prefer more hot or cold?

Orumé: Hot. I am from Nigeria. It’s tropical. It’s hot all the way. Nothing cold for me. You can see right now I’m drinking my cup of tea. Always something hot. Hot, hot all the way.

John: 70 degrees is cold to you, I’m sure. So it’s like woo.

Orumé: Yes, it is.

John: Yeah. Yeah. That’s impressive. All right. How about a favorite number? Any number at all?

Orumé: 17 because that was the name of my childhood home and it’s not part of any of my password numbers. So don’t anyone try, okay, 17 with anything else. It’s not gonna work.

John: That’s funny. That’s great. That’s so great. Well, since you’re in New York, how about what’s a favorite toppings on a pizza?

Orumé: So pizza, it’s not particularly my cup of tea. But recently, I had some really, really good pizza in Manhattan. I actually met up with a number of CPAs, and we got together, and we had a really good pizza. And so, it was deluxe of everything. So I like mushrooms. I like pepperoni and veggies.

John: Okay. Yeah. Fair enough. And two more. When it comes to books, audiobook, e-Book, or the real book?

Orumé: I like the real book because I just like the feel of paper to like flip the pages over. Any problem is that if you’re traveling or whatever, then you know it’s not as convenient to carry all those books with you. But I find out with like magazine subscriptions, it’s so difficult for me to go and get a subscription online and read it online. So I like to have paper copies of them.

John: The physical copy. Yeah, no, I’m with you on that too. Absolutely. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Orumé: Favorite thing I have or own is actually one of my other “ands.” And I know we’re not getting into this yet, but it’s running like medal. The medal I got from the 2010 marathon that I ran.

John: Wow. And where was it? What marathon?

Orumé: The New York City 2010 Marathon. Yeah. So I love that medal. It’s framed in my living room.

John: That’s awesome. I lived in New York City then, so who knows if I waved at you as you ran by ’cause I was not running. I was probably eating ice cream out of a cone and then going back. Right?

Orumé: We love spectators and supporters. They are the ones who carried the runners through all the time.

John: Yeah. Well, we can jump into running. I mean, that leads right into one of your “ands.” Absolutely. And so, like is running something you did as a kid and then just carried on as an adult or did you get into it later?

Orumé: Well, it’s kind of funny, right? So in school, I actually did it. I ran for the school. I ran 100 meters and 200 meters.

John: Oh, wow.

Orumé: I think it started from when I was really, really young ’cause my parents, my mom would call. She’s like “Which one of the kids are out there?” She will just call your name. And so, you would run through the living room to go meet her ’cause you wanted to get there in time before somebody else or whatever. So I started running and then I ran in school in Nigeria. That’s like secondary school, which is like junior high. And then I forgot about running. I didn’t run for a very long time and relocated to New York. I can’t remember what triggered it. I just started to run again, and I just started, and it was little by little. You know, 3 miles, 5 miles. I had a couple of friends who were like really, really passionate runners, and they were members of a running club, and they asked me to join. And the next thing I know, I’m like training for a marathon. I’m like this is crazy.

John: Right? That’s a lot more than 100 meters. That’s for sure. And so, was the New York City marathon the only marathon you’ve done or have you done others?

Orumé: Yes. That has been my one and only marathon, which is why that medal is so precious to me. However, I’ve done a couple of half marathons. I’ve done about 4 half-marathons. I did the Detroit Half, the Stockton Island Half, and the Brooklyn Half.

John: And I think that those count. So that’s like two more marathons, four halves. I’m giving it to you. We’re gonna round up. The auditor in me says let’s just round it up.

Orumé: Yeah.

John: That’s awesome. Very cool. And so, do you have anything from the running that you feel translates to work at all?

Orumé: Yeah, it’s that endurance. I think when you are running a long distance, you have to like be disciplined and just like know that you have to get to that end point, right? And so, it’s the same thing. Like when I’m going through taxes or working with any deadline, I’m tired, I wanna stop, I’m like “No, I’ve gotta keep going ’cause I’ve got to get to that end point.” And so, I think I bring that endurance from running into practice with work.

John: Yeah, I love it. That’s exactly it. I mean, you know, ’cause you’re exercising that muscle outside of work. And then when it comes time to use that muscle, that endurance muscle, if you will, at work, then you’re like “I’ve done this before. This is not even close to as hard as being on mile 14 of a marathon and being like, oh lord, like I thought we were done and I’m only halfway.”

Orumé: Exactly. You’re like look at the clock and like look at the stock of papers and I’m like “Ah, there’s so much to do. Keep going. Keep going.”

John: Exactly. Yeah, no, I love it. That’s super cool. And I guess also traveling. I know you’ve traveled all over the world. And so, do you have some favorite places that you’ve been?

Orumé: Yes. And I’ll tie a little bit of my running into my travels everywhere I go especially recently within the last 10 years. Every time I travel, one thing that has to be in my suitcase is my trainers, my running sneakers and a pair of running out stuff. And so, I make sure I get in like 2 miles or 3 miles just to like get to know the place where I’m at and get a feel for the local environment where that is a great way to see a new city just by running. Obviously, you can see the city by transportation and all of that stuff, but running is another way to see it. So yeah, I consider myself to be a global citizen.

Growing up, my mom used to take all of her children. My siblings and I, we always traveled away on summer vacation. I grew up in Lagos, Nigeria. So we’re either coming to America or going to London. So I had that travel bug from when I was small. And one of the things I always said is like I wanted to be in a field where I could get paid to travel. So when I applied at some point in time to a flight attendant, I did not make it. I made it through the first round. I didn’t make it through the second round because at that time, flight attendants still used to pull the baggage in the overhead bin.

John: Oh, up in the overhead.

Orumé: And I didn’t want to be doing that. I’m like “No, this isn’t gonna happen.” But anyway, so travel, I’ve been to like so many places. I used to have a map in my room in which I had— It was a world map and I would just check off all the different places I’ve been to. So one interesting place I’ve been to is Austria. I went to Salzburg, and it was like totally blew my mind away. Why? Because when I was small, the musical that everyone gets to watch when I was small, I dunno if you watched it, was Sound of Music.

John: Sound of Music, absolutely.

Orumé: I couldn’t believe that where I was was exactly the way it was in the movie. I was like the most beautiful thing. I said, “You look at a movie and you think it’s all make believe and it’s what—” But they’re like “No, this is real. This is where the Sound of Music was filmed.”

John: That’s so cool. That’s so cool.

Orumé: Oh, well, totally cool. So I did that. Another interesting place I’ve been to is Athens. And one of the places I visited when I was in Athens was I went to the amphitheater. And like you mentioned earlier, I used to be an actress. And one of the plays, we did a lot of Greek tragedy plays when I was—

John: Oh, wow. Yeah

Orumé: So for me to be in Athens and I went to the amphitheater, the acropolis, and it was like, whoa, this again identifying something that I’ve been exposed to in real life to my travel. So I was like I got to the floor, to the main floor of the theater, and lay down there to recite one of my Greek lines.

John: Yes! Yes!

Orumé: You know? People were looking at me as if I was crazy. I’m like I don’t care. I’m actually reciting words from Euripides. I think it was some lines from the Trojan women and I got to recite that. Another interesting place is Ecuador.

John: Oh, wow.

Orumé: There is a place that you get to in Ecuador where you get to straddle and you have one foot on both hemispheres. Yeah, I was like this is so wacky. Right?

John: Right? That’s so fun though. It’s so fun. And I mean, in the Acropolis, I mean, to be able to recite lines that were recited there thousands of years ago and, yes, you’re crazy, but it’s awesome, you know. And so what, you know? But to bring it full circle for you, but also for that theater, like how cool is it for that theater to hear those words again that were spoken there thousands of years ago and now by you? That’s so cool.

Orumé: Exactly. I’m like even if you guys don’t identify with it, I’m like I am living my life right now. This is so—

John: Yes!

Orumé: Yeah, it’s great.

John: That’s so great. And to be able to straddle the equator and all that stuff, like that’s so awesome. And like things that you would never get to do otherwise. And so, do you feel like the traveling at all gives you a skill that you bring to work?

Orumé: Yes. It absolutely does. I look at myself, I think of myself as a global citizen. And when I get to travel and I get to all those different places, I get to meet people from different cultures, different countries, different religions. And it makes me be able to again relate to colleagues, to my clients because nobody ever— I don’t know about you, but I’m sure you don’t interact with just one mode of people, right, so exposed to different cultures, different languages. Even though I don’t recall those languages, but I’ve been in France, I’ve been in Spain, I’ve been in Italy, I can relate to them whether I get with them whether as a client or as a colleague when I was working with other staff members.

So it just makes it easier for me to relate to a wider variety of people instead of just a small, I mean narrow—

John: Which is huge.

Orumé: Yeah.

John: ‘Cause, I mean, how much of that is part of your career versus your technical skills? I mean, that other side of you is maybe even more important to be relatable and all that.

Orumé: Yeah. Because especially, you know, it’s like starting up with my firm. I started from scratch, growing a practice and trying to bring new clients onboard. They need to be able to relate to you. I mean, you need to know that even though just something we might not have— We might have traveled in common or I might be speaking to someone who we’ve been to the same country or visited the same place, whether it’s Puerto Rico, nearby here, or whether it’s Belize, I’ve had a lot of different connections with people like that when we say that “Oh, you’ve traveled there? You were there?” You know, at this rainforest or the other rainforest. And so, those little things, it definitely also helps in a workplace.

John: Absolutely. No, that’s so cool to hear that the whole What’s Your “And”? thing isn’t just I’m making it up in my bubble head. It’s real life, and it really matters, and it makes a huge difference in your work.

Orumé: It does. Recently, I met some CPAs who were from India. And I got to talk about when I went to travel to India. It was one of those wild experiences. A friend of mine invited me to attend a wedding in India. And I went there. And it was the most lavish, lavish wedding ever. But to be able to say to the CPA “Oh, I’ve been to Jaipur, I’ve been to Mumbai and a bunch of other places, I got to ride on an elephant”, I had to share that experience with her. And then to talk about the wedding, immediately she identified with the wedding. And she was like “Yes, this is what they do.” She knew what I was talking about.

John: And it just softens everything. And then the relationship’s just better. You know, the work will get done, but it just gets done better and smoother if you have that relationship there. So awesome. Before you started the firm, you worked somewhere else. How much is it on an organization where you’re not the CEO or maybe as the CEO even to create space for the people that work there to have an “and” and to share it versus how much is it on the individual to just be like “Hey, this is what I do, take it or leave it”?

Orumé: I think it’s really super important. That wasn’t done everywhere where I have worked at. I work primarily in industry. And in one of the international firms where I worked at, they had that culture in which every time a new employee was onboarded, we had a staff meeting to welcome that person in. And that person will share a little bit about their professional life, but always also touch on their personal something that nobody else would know. And so, to help bring that person in immediately so that other staff members, the team, we could begin to relate to that person.

And then weekly, we would have all hands on deck meeting and first to talk about what they got up to over the weekend, who went bowling or whatever. What’s in your head? What else are you doing? Are you acting off stage, off Broadway somewhere? Are you doing a standup comedy somewhere or whatever? So I think, therefore, the employers that had that vibe going on, I noticed that the team were more together versus other employers that I’ve worked for that did not have that culture per se. Of course, you make things work, but folks are not as connected per se.

John: Yeah, no, it’s so true. I mean, it’s just amazing how when you just— I mean, you talking about traveling and running, I mean, but especially traveling like Austria, this is a movie that I watched as a kid, I mean, you were so animated and so alive. And you could hear it in your voice everyone listening, you know. And if this was a tax update podcast, I doubt that you would be as excited and as animated as you were talking about travel, which is totally fine. It’s not a knock on taxes, or you, or anything. It’s just human nature to this is what lights up my soul like on a basic level. And so, it’s like, yeah, find that out about the people around you. I mean, magic happens. It’s awesome.

Orumé: Yeah, I agree. I think we have to fill all the different buckets of life, right? So if you are just filling your professional buckets and just doing all the CPAs and getting all that technical expertise and not getting any other buckets, I think that something after a while is gonna go awry. So it’s better to like fill in all those other buckets of life.

John: Oh, that’s so perfect. So perfect, Orumé. That’s so good. And I guess do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening? Or maybe that’s it. I mean, just make sure that all your buckets are full.

Orumé: Yes. Just fill in all your bucket. I have a girlfriend who does pottery. She just started to like do pottery. It’s just like making things from clay, from scratch. I’m like find your creative— Everybody has something that they can do. You know, find a passion and tap into it. If you’ve been holding back for so long, just let it go. And you know, the good thing is that you can do it in secret if you don’t wanna be judged. And then when you feel comfortable, come out and share it with other people because you’ll be surprised that there might be somebody else who shares the same passion as you do your “and” and you’ll make a connection there and that could take you somewhere else.

John: That’s so great. And yeah, you’re supposed to be bad at it. That’s why it’s a hobby and not your job, you know. And I’ve also found too, if you just change the phrase to I enjoy, I enjoy traveling or I enjoy making pottery, I enjoy running, I didn’t ask you your marathon time, who cares? It doesn’t matter. You ran a marathon. What more do you want from me?

Orumé: If you are there when I finished, you would have thought I was like #1. I was like it doesn’t matter if I was like the last person. I’m like I finished. That was more important.

John: It doesn’t matter. And so, you know, I enjoy blank. I’m doing it for me, you know. I’m not doing it for your approval. I don’t even care if you approve. Actually, it’s better if you don’t. I don’t even care. You know? So I love that. So great, Orumé. So I feel like it’s only fair though since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning of the episode that we turn the tables, make this the first episode of The Orumé Podcast. So I’m all yours and whatever you got for me.

Orumé: Okay, great. So tell me about an interesting place that you have traveled to in Africa.

John: Oh, yeah. So, okay. I mean, my favorite city in the world is Cape Town by far.

Orumé: Oh, nice.

John: Yeah. And going down just south of there is the Cape of Good Hope, which is where the Atlantic Ocean starts to come around Africa and then hits the Indian Ocean. It’s unbelievably powerful. And just to imagine these ships in the 1500s or whatever coming around that with no GPS, no cellphones, no computers, I mean just unbelievable. I mean, just crazy, crazy. And then there’s also baboons just running around wild, which makes me laugh hysterically. I don’t know why. It turns me into like a 6-year-old kid. And so, their red butts like running everywhere. So like that was really cool. And again, one of those things where you read about it as a kid and then you go and you’re like “No! This isn’t even close to what you told me. This is crazy. Like this is unbelievably crazy.” So that’s a pretty cool place.

Orumé: That’s awesome. So I have been there. I have been to South Africa. I have been to Cape Town. And I did climb the Tabletop Mountain when I was there.

John: Yeah. Tabletop Mountain right there. Yeah. Oh, you climbed it. Oh, wow. I did the cable car. I paid 20 bucks or whatever. I was like “Yeah, I’m gonna ride up.” And then I waved probably at you as you were hiking and like what I was supposed to probably do, but—

Orumé: So keeping the theme with Africa, what would you say an African Dish that you’ve enjoyed, either an African dish or African music that you like?

John: So I did a safari in Kenya in Masai Mara. And it was really funny ’cause they kept serving us Western meals. And I’m like “Yo! I’m in the middle of Kenya, like hook me up with some good stuff.” And I was joking with the Safari driver and I was like “Yeah, but I just wanna get all energized so I can run a marathon like all the Kenyans do.” And he is like “Oh, we don’t all run marathons, just the Masai warrior types.” He’s like “Look at me.” He had a big gut. And he was just like “I don’t run anywhere.” But they made me a traditional meal and ugali. I thought it was great. It was like a white cornmeal, I guess sort of. Kind of like mashed potatoes, but kind of cornmeal.

And man, that that will fill you up quickly. And it was that with some greens and then some beef, but the ugali was definitely a unique thing that I hadn’t had before. They were all like “You liked it? Really?” And I was like “Yeah! You should have this on the menu. Why is this not a thing?” And you know, it’s what they served all the workers in the back. And I’m like “Yeah, bring that out. That’s what I want. I’ll go back there and eat it with you.”

John: Exactly.

Orumé: Yeah, I loved it. And it’s not spicy. It’s not like over the top.

John: Oh, really?

Orumé: It was great. Yeah, it was really good, you know. And so, yeah, I enjoyed it for sure.

John: Yeah. A nice one. So I love spicy and not spicy. I love a lot of African food. In Nigeria, we have a cassava mix. It’s called gari with eba and then some like really spicy vegetable soup. But I won’t go into that. I have another question for you. So how many languages do you speak? Any other language apart from English?

Orumé: Yeah. Well, not so much anymore. We lived in the Azores for 2 years when I was in sixth and seventh grade. So I knew Portuguese when I lived there. And then just after that, I took Spanish in high school.

So that ruined all the Portuguese because they’re close, but they’re different. Little bit of Spanish and then like a very tiny bit of Russian I also know, but also Pig Latin in high school I was a professional at, which is where you take the English word, and you take the first syllable and put it at the end, and then put an “ay” at the end of it. Like my name would be Ohnjay. So you just take the J and put it at the end. And I think it was a code that was made up during World War II, so then the Germans couldn’t translate or intercept the English as well. And so, it was just a dumb thing that several of my friends picked up and decided to— especially on the soccer team for some reason. We had that as a thing. But yeah, so the short answer is no. English is pretty much it, but I can hang a little bit with the Spanish and then a very tiny bit with Russian I guess sort of, but not really. I mean, there’s Google Translate app. Thank goodness.

Orumé: I know. Well, that we can all cheat. But before we go Google Translate, I do know something.

John: Yeah. So I’m impressed by someone like you. I mean, what are you? 5 languages I’m guessing?

Orumé: No. I wish. I used to live in Miami. When I was in Miami I used to get so frustrated ’cause everybody around me would speak Spanish. So I went to the library, tried to get some books. And this was back in the ’90s. I tried to get some tapes and whatever. And I just couldn’t pick it up. I was like this is not working, so I gave up. But when I was much younger, I used to speak French. I took French classes. And I used to write in French. And now, I can hardly put two sentences together because, like you said, if you don’t use it, you lose it. You lose the skill.

John: Exactly. Well, that’s awesome. Well, thank you so much, Orumé, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This was so much fun having you be on the show.

Orumé: Thank you. It’s been my pleasure. Definitely great conversation. Thanks for inviting me.

John: Absolutely. And everyone listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Orumé from around the world or from her running or maybe connect with her own social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to read the book. And thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 547 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiates you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the workplace because of it.

If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe on the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Tate Hackert. He’s the founder and President of ZayZoon. And now, he’s with me here today. Tate, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And

Tate: Thanks for having me, man.

John: Yeah. This is gonna be a blast. This is gonna be so much fun ’cause I know nothing about any of this, so this is gonna be so fun. But I have 17 rapid-fire questions. Get to know Tate out of the gate here. So you’re buckled in, ready to go. All right, here we go. Favorite movie of all time?

Tate: Blow, Johnny Depp.

John: Oh, okay. There you go. Solid pick. Solid pick. How about when it comes to puzzles? Sudoku, Crossword, or a Jigsaw puzzle?

Tate: Ooh, I play neither of them, so I’d have to say something random like a game of Risk or chess.

John: Oh, Risk. Nice. And Chess. Okay. Solid. All right. We can keep hanging out. All right. We’re good. We’re good. How about a favorite color?

Tate: Favorite color’s purple.

John: Oh, really? Okay. I don’t get that one very often.

Tate: Highly underrated color.

John: It is highly underrated. And there’s such a spectrum there as well.

Tate: Exactly. Exactly.

John: Yeah, absolutely. How about a least favorite color?

Tate: I’m not a huge red fan, I don’t think. Yeah, I’ll say red.

John: Red Works. Absolutely. Are you more talk or text?

Tate: I’m more text. Text for business. Talk for personal.

John: Oh, okay. All right. A little bit of both.

Tate: Oddly enough. Yeah.

John: Yeah. Interesting. All right. How about a favorite comedian?

Tate: Oh, John, I can’t say you, can I?

John: Yeah. Now, you’re just kissing up. Now, you’re just kissing up. Right? Yeah, you can if you want, but I’m sure it’s somebody else.

Tate: Honestly, I’m a big fan of whatever’s on the Netflix special that month, so whatever the flavor of the week is. I feel like Netflix has been putting us some solid specials.

John: Yeah, tons of good ones. And buddies of mine too like Ryan Hamilton, Nate Bargatze, like those guys coming out with the specials, which is great. It’s really cool to see them doing that. All right. Very good. How about a least favorite vegetable?

Tate: You know, I still don’t like the Brussels sprouts unless they’re like cooked perfectly. You know, when they grill the Brussel sprouts and they throw some bacon on there, a lot of salt?

John: Right.

Tate: Yeah, that’s all right, but I still can’t get over them.

John: Make them not healthy at all. Like basically, it’s the only way I’ll eat ’em too.

Tate: It’s like the charred ones. Yeah. Those are solid.

John: Right. Exactly. Yeah. There you go. How about more Star Wars or Star Trek?

Tate: So John, I have a confession. I have not watched either.

John: Oh, okay. Nothing of neither. Okay. Wow. All right. Fair enough.

Tate: You know, I haven’t been a very big— What do you call that? Like fantasy fiction?

John: Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah, that works. Yeah.

Tate: I’ve never seen Lord of the Rings. I’ve never seen Star Trek, Star Wars.

John: No. Fair enough. Fair enough. This one you gotta answer. PC or Mac?

Tate: Mac.

John: Mac. Yeah. Okay. All right. Ooh, this is a good one. Cheeseburger or pizza?

Tate: Cheeseburger.

John: Oh. Oh, okay. You didn’t even think about that one. You’re like done.

Tate: No. Double In-N-Out. That’s what it’s all about.

John: Oh, oh, okay. Okay. All right. Do you prefer more hot or cold?

Tate: Hot.

John: Hot. Okay. All right. How about ice cream? Do you get it in a cup or in a cone?

Tate: Cup.

John: Cup. Yeah, me too. I think you get more, I think. I don’t know. That’s what I tell myself anyway.

Tate: I feel like I can eat more and not feel as bad.

John: Ah, yeah, there you go. ‘Cause you’re not eating the cup too.

Tate: Exactly. Yeah.

John: Yeah, yeah. There you go. All right. All right. I see where you’re going. How about a favorite sports team?

Tate: Vancouver Canucks.

John: Oh, Canucks. All right. There you go. All right. How about a favorite number?

Tate: 7.

John: 7? Is there a reason?

Tate: No, it’s just the first number that came to mind.

John: Yeah, I know. I mean, it’s my favorite number too. Mostly sports related, but yeah. And then it’s pretty popular. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or a real book?

Tate: A real book. Yeah. I like to feel them.

John: No, it’s definitely a lot better. All right, two more.

Ooh, this is a fun one. Favorite Disney character. There’s like a million of them. So it’s like anything animated I’ll take pretty much.

Tate: Yeah. Yeah. Gimme a couple of yours, John.

John: Oh, Goofy and Donald Duck easily when it comes to the old school classics.

Tate: Yeah. I’ll take some Donald Duck action for sure.

John: Yeah, it’s hilarious. And he’s wearing no pants and no one ever says anything about this. Like anybody? No? Okay. Like nothing. He’s got a shirt on, but no pants.

Tate: Yeah, I’m Team Donald for sure.

John: Yeah. Yeah. All right. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Tate: So as of recent, I just bought an electric scooter. So I’m on this road trip right now across the US, and we’re in this RV. And of course, as you can imagine, trying to park the RV in downtown course and whatnot is just so difficult. And so, we went to Target and bought these scooters. They’re like $350 and they get you, I think, 6 miles or so. They go 15 miles an hour. And that has been a lifesaver. You pull ’em out, you rip on ’em, it’s beautiful. Best purchase.

John: That’s fantastic. So they’re like the ones that are just parked around downtowns, but they’re probably a little bit better and you don’t have to rent it because it’s like you just have your own.

Tate: Exactly. Exactly. And Target has a 90-day return policy, so we’ll see how much I like it after the rodeo.

John: What do you know? On the 89th day, I decided I need to return it and go to the next Target and buy a new one. And then you just do that every quarter. I see what’s going on here. I like that. That’s a good idea. So your favorite thing is technically the receipt that you’re keeping for the scooter.

Tate: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

John: It’s probably your favorite part of it. That’s great, man. Well, let’s talk about martial arts. We do boxing and jujitsu. And I guess just what are the differences there between the two?

Tate: I’ve been involved in martial arts my whole life really. You know, I was first put into jujitsu when I was 5 years old. And then most of the clubs that you’re a part of, they tend to morph over the years into a place that doesn’t just do one thing. And so, they’ll do jujitsu, and boxing, and kickboxing or whatever else. Right? And especially, I think, with the rise of like MMA over the years and the popularity UFC, sort of like a multidisciplinary club is what’s most popular. And so, you know, I started with jujitsu, but it really morphed into a lot of boxing over the years. And I think jujitsu is like a really solid foundation and a solid base. But you know, boxing is just a fun sport. They’re both really fun. I think of jujitsu as more of like a game of chess. And boxing’s a little bit more of just a bit more intensity I suppose.

John: Yeah. So jujitsu is feet and hands, I guess. And then boxing, obviously just hands, like just punching obviously. I know boxing ’cause it’s on TV more. But you know, when UFC, or MMA, or all that stuff, like that’s more jujitsu style.

Tate: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

John: Okay.

Tate: I mean, like you can kind of think of it anything from a throw to the ground, this jujitsu, and then rolling around on the ground essentially. So when people use the language like grappling, they’re talking about this.

John: Oh, yeah. Okay. That makes sense.

Tate: Wrestling movement on the ground. Right? Usually ending in some sort of submission. So, an arm bar or a choke.

John: Got it. Oh, okay. All right. I was thinking of something totally different then. All right, no, that makes sense then. Yeah, that’s cool, man. And do you feel like this is something that gives you a skill that you bring to work at all?

Tate: Yeah, yeah, certainly. I think martial arts is a really neat sport because it is entirely individual, but yet there’s such a team behind you and there’s that camaraderie that exists at a gym. And especially if you’re part of like a really inclusive leave the ego at the door type style gym, it really does like teach you that like discipline, and sportsmanship, and team, and how to lead, and how to follow in some instances, and sort of that ebb and flow that you need to interact in an organization, right? Like when to speak up, when to not speak up. And so, I always found that really interesting about martial arts. And absolutely, like it’d be difficult maybe to pinpoint like an exact use case of how that maybe gets applied in the workplace, but certainly it does.

John: I would imagine discipline as well, I mean, you know, when it comes to work and focus and also just that mental toughness. I mean, I would imagine there’s a couple times when you get punched in the face or you’re getting arm barred or whatever. Like that’s not comfortable, you know, and yet you fight through it and you get through it. And you know, it’s similar at work where you figuratively get punched in the face, you know.

Tate: Yeah. It’s certainly a war of attrition at times. And then, as well, like I was fortunate enough to actually have like full-on fights like in front of a crowd and whatnot. Right?

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Tate: That’s something that from a— I don’t know the word that you use. I guess like it feels silly to say like courage or— but just like being able to get up there and put yourself out there, I think, is such a scary concept and definitely something that like goes across various parts of your life.

So yeah, it’s been a fun sport to be involved in. It’s one that I was super, super involved in when I was younger, you know, maybe between the age of like 12 and 19. It was something I did religiously every day of the week, if not a couple days of the week. Sorry, a couple times a day. And it was something that my cousin and I have always been very, very close. And he actually went pro, lived in Vegas for a while, and did the whole pro fighter thing and part of that whole UFC circuit and everything else. But him and I have always been incredibly tight from a young age.

Like he’s 3-1/2 years older than me. And it was a time to like hang out, but also the to and from the gym. So the closest gym to us growing up was a 35-minute drive away, 40-minute drive away. And so, there was like that time before and after of just sort of like brotherhood that we had together and it was all built around this like concept of the gym. Right? So it’s always been a very big part of my life in that sense. And then I’m 30 years old now. And over the last 10 years, it’s something that sort of comes and goes just depending on the months or the years. But you know, it’s definitely a very big part of my life still.

John: But it’s always there, you know. Like it’s not something that, yeah, if I told you you could never do this again, you would be like “Oh, you’re getting ready to see what an arm bar is, John.” You know? Because you would be like “No, those are fighting words.” You know? And that’s an important piece of who you are and that’s cool, man. And so, I mean, you mentioned being able to get in the ring, I guess, or whatever in front of crowds. Do you have any favorite memories from your time doing this?

Tate: Yeah. So I have a favorite memory, not necessarily from like the fight itself. But the first time I ever went to Vegas, I was 17 years old and my cousin at the time— So I don’t know if you know anything about the UFC or the Ultimate Fighter, but back in— it would have been 2008— yeah, 2008-2009— the UFC, the Ultimate Fighter was a show on Spike TV.

John: Right. Oh, yeah.

Tate: And it was so, so popular. And it’s really what like skyrocketed the popularity of UFC. And the concept was there was two coaches, two professional fight coaches. They each had a team behind them and they all lived in this fighter house. And you know, basically, the last man standing got a contract with UFC. And so, at that time, Wanderlei Silva was one of the UFC champs. And he had kind of gone off and wanted to start his own version of this called Wan TV. And so, he had a full production crew in Las Vegas. He had a fighter house that he got for a team.

And my cousin, Mike, was a part of this. So he was selected to be one of the fighters on this show. And so, when I was 17, he’s been living down in Vegas now for a couple months as part of this experience. And I went down to visit him. I mean, I think there’s like a couple things that came out of that that was just so cool. Like, first, it’s like you see these people on TV all the time. And as someone that’s like a super big fan of fighting and being such a big piece of my life, it was so cool to be able to interact with these people like in a gym setting.

And then the second thing that’s a memory from that, I don’t know if it’s a good memory, I stayed in the fighter house with all these professional fighters. And I was only there for 3 days. And so, I didn’t buy groceries. I was eating out. But the one morning, I wanted some toast with peanut butter ’cause I knew that we were gonna go to the gym. I didn’t have time to go to Denny’s to get breakfast. And so, I just grabbed a slice of bread and some peanut butter in the fridge.

John: Right.

Tate: I’m not thinking anything of it. And one of the guys got really, really pissed at me. Basically saying like this is my food and a bunch of profanity.

John: Yeah. Like you stole it. And it’s like a slice of bread. Like “Come on, man.”

Tate: Like fair enough. Like, you know, I wasn’t really thinking at that time. But at the same time, yeah, a tablespoon of peanut butter and a slice of bread, like come on.

John: Yeah. Right, right, right.

Tate: But yeah. So my cousin had to come in and sort of like diffuse the situation a little bit.

John: And those are not guys you want to like make angry, you know.

Tate: Exactly.

John: But I just remember that being very funny afterwards anyways.

Tate: Yeah, yeah. But I mean, it’s cool to be able to hang out with them and like yeah. And you’ll remember that about that fighter and be like, you know, because I mean it’s the same thing with me and comedians. People are “Well, what’s so and so like?” And 99% of the time, they’re super cool. But once in a while, it’s the 1% that’s like ” Oh, I don’t know if I’m allowed to— Like should I tell you and like ruin it for you like ’cause this is your favorite comedian and I’m gonna be like total jerk like total jerk?”

John: Don’t meet your heroes thing. Right?

Tate: Yeah, exactly. But it is cool to be able to lift the curtain and then you get to see the behind the scenes because on TV it’s not real, you know. It’s only what makes it to the television and then you get to see all the other stuff that’s behind the scenes of all the work and all the grind really and all that.

That’s cool, man. So this is something that you do share at work? Have you talked about it at work?

John: Yeah. So you know what? ZayZoon’s interesting. I have no idea if this is normal or not. I don’t think it’s super normal, but we have a thing called drink and thinks. And so, every single week, we rotate through different teams. So you know, software development, product, customer support, etc., etc. They’ll pick someone from that team to basically lead, drink, and think for the day. And drink and think is this 45-minute session typically on a Friday afternoon. But again, it can be whenever.

And sometimes, those people share things about a new product at work or something that they came across, something interesting. But 90% of the time, they’re sharing stories about their life. And so, like our VP of tech, he has this huge Lego hobby. He actually has like 15,000 followers on Instagram for this Lego account where he built different structures and stuff. And so, he like shared that. We had another guy just last week shared his passion for Sumo wrestling.

John: Okay.

Tate: And so, yeah, we definitely like filter through that and make it part of the culture at ZayZoon where it’s like one of our core values is mastery. And mastery is this concept of like just continually learning and having this insatiable thirst for knowledge. And so, we really see that like people sharing their individual— I mean like What’s Your “And”?— I mean, people sharing that at work is definitely embedded deep into our culture. And one of those ways that we flex that is through that drink and think.

John: And why do you think it’s so important to share the human side to each of us, you know, share those ands?

Tate: Well, I mean, for us, like we’re a completely distributed team. So we’re 80 individuals. We’re still fairly small as a company. But you know, at 80 people, you start to feel things break a little bit, especially when you’re growing fast and people are coming on quite quickly. The company’s changing week by week. And I think it’s important to share that kind of human element because you might not have that water cooler chat. You might not have that out for lunch with your coworkers type thing. And so, being able to share that over Google Meets is impactful for kind of I guess just creating a deeper relationship with your coworkers.

John: Yeah. And I mean, as the founder, like it’s okay to not be “working” to get to know each other because there’s benefits in the long run for that ’cause a lot of people will think “Well, you know, there’s work to be done. Why are you humanizing?” Why are you actually talking to each other type of thing. And it’s great that you have that perspective.

Tate: I think, as an entrepreneur, like work is life and that sort of work life balance maybe all becomes one. And so, when I’m doing martial arts, for example, I think of that as just one facet of my life. And I think of it as a way that I can better perform at work because it allows me that meditative sort of release. And so, I think the same thing with our staff, right? Like, yeah, absolutely, sharing, and talking, and interacting with your coworkers is 100% part of work because that’s what makes people want to be at work. It’s what makes people want to stay at ZayZoon potentially longer than they would otherwise. Right? And I mean, employee retention, and happiness, morale is obviously incredibly important to a company from a feel good perspective, but also to a company from an economics perspective.

John: Absolutely. I mean, it’s straight dollars but it’s also, like you said, good karma and feel good perspective of that. And I love that that’s a thing. That every Friday afternoon, like a different group is presenting. And you know, on occasion, it turns human and brings that human out from behind the job title, which is really, really fantastic.

Tate: And I think like you asked me specifically, like do I bring that out ever? So yeah, like, I mean, it’s part of the drink and think. One thing I try to do ’cause I might not be that interesting, so I try to flex my network and bring interesting people in.

John: Okay. All right.

Tate: So my drink and thinks typically are like guest speakers and that might range from— We had a fitness coach that coached professional athletes and stuff. And so, he kind of drew analogies to the coaching professional athletes and leadership in the workplace. But specific to this discussion is Ryan James. So Ryan James is an ex-UFC fighter and a friend of mine that I brought in to do a drink and think. And it was really, really cool because you see the team like sink their teeth into the question and answer part, right? Like some of the questions you asked me like how do you have that consistency day after day, like were you scared walking into the ring? How do you let go of that fear? And those are questions that are applied to every part of your life, right? It’s not just the sport or the activity that you’re in.

John: No, that’s awesome, man. But it lets people see that side of Tate ’cause I mean some people that come in new, they might be intimidated. “Oh, he’s the founder.” And it’s like “Nah, it’s just Tate. He gets punched in the face. Go talk to him. He’s cool.”

Like you know? Rather, he punches people in the face. No. No. I’m kidding. But it humanizes you, you know. And it brings out these other sides to you that now people are like “Oh, okay.” And then if they have a similar interest, then you guys have something to bond over in a cool way. And I love that that’s a thing there. Like it’s not forced. It’s not orchestrated. It’s just if I were to start, it’s like Yeah, we do this drink and think on Fridays. It’s what we do, you know, and then it’s just a thing, which I love.” That’s so awesome, man. That’s so awesome. And so, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe feels like, well, I have an “and”, but no one’s gonna care ’cause it has nothing to do with my job?

Tate: So I haven’t been a part of the corporate world ever. My background is commercial fishing and construction. And so, I’ve now been in the tech world for 8 years. But you know, me personally having a corporate job, like I can’t believe that that’s actually a thing that people aren’t about to talk about in the workplace. Like everything that I’m saying, everything that I do I just assume is normal.

John: You would hope, but it’s not like unfortunately.

Tate: Exactly. Like we’re doing this RV tour right now across the US. And so, I’m setup in this ZayZoon branded RV, and we’re going coast to coast visiting all of our clients and employees that use us and the partners that we’re partnered with. And we’re bringing along team members for each like of the stint like of the trip. Right? And it’s cool to me to like hear them say “Hey, like it is so great that you’re including us in this. It’s so great that like you’re so chill.” And again, like in my mind, it’s just normal.

John: Yeah, right. No, same. Like, it’s like “Well, how would you expect me to be? Like what did you think it was gonna be?” Like you know? And it’s like “I’m just me, man.”

Tate: But I think we’ve done a pretty good job at ZayZoon of building a culture and an organization that’s as horizontal as it can be. Of course, the key decision maker and whatnot is still very important. And you can’t build through consensus, but you can gather inputs and then make a decision.

John: Yeah. Somebody has to make a call at some point.

Tate: Exactly. Exactly. But I really can’t believe that there’s organizations out there that would stop someone from talking about their “and.”

John: More than you would like to imagine. Or it’s maybe they don’t slap on the wrist, but it’s not encouraged, you know. So then people feel like, well, if no one else is talking about it, then it’s a trap, so I can’t talk about it sort of a thing. And I mean, when I worked at PWC, I mean, I was too dumb to know that I was supposed to just say— You know, when people are like “Hey, what’d you do this weekend”, “Nothing.” You know? It’s like “No, I drove to this city and did comedy shows.” And then people are like “Wait, you did what?” You know? And it’s like time out, hold on, you know? And then that’s cool because people remember you then. Everyone’s good at their jobs. I mean, we’re all good at our work. I mean, come on, you know? Plus or minus, we’re all good.

So you’re not standing out from the work side. And so, you stand out from the human side with the technical skills. Like that combo is what makes you unique and everyone that works at ZayZoon as well. So I love that that’s a thing there, you know. It’s just how it is. So that’s awesome, man. Very, very cool. Well, this has been so much fun, but I feel like it’s only fair— I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning. So we can turn the tables and we’ll make it The Tate Hacker Podcast if you would like to ask me any questions yet. You got Anything for me? Whatever you want to ask.

Tate: Well, I mean, so being a comedian and going up on stage, I think that’s probably very akin to being a fighter and going into the ring.

John: Very much so, dude, like so much.

Tate: It’s an individual sport, and you are for sure figuratively getting punched in the face. I’m curious. Do you have a moment that you can recall that was just you felt absolutely terrible walking off the stage? And kind of walk me through like the thought that was going through or maybe what made you feel terrible in the first place. Was it internal feelings or was it someone in the crowd heckling and then how’d you overcome that?

John: That’s a great question, man. Yeah. I mean, there’s lots of times ’cause, I mean, especially when you’re new, I mean, you’re not good. And the only way to get good is to get in the ring. You know, there’s no body bags for comedy. Like I can’t just like practice. It’s you gotta get in front of a live audience and let it rip and then decide if it’s funny or not. And so, yeah, I mean, when I was newer, I mean for sure like maybe a bar show or something like that where people “When are you gonna talk about midgets?” And it’s like “I’m not.” You know? And I’m also not gonna swear or like do stupid like— you know, it’s not a bunch of poop jokes. It’s like they wanna hear a joke about like a drunk midget walking through a Taco Bell drive-thru ’cause that’s so funny. Oh, my goodness. And especially when I was new, I was more clever than funny.

It was a little more clever than funny. And I’ll admit that. And so, you had to learn to like still be clever, but more funny and yeah. So you just record the audio and then listen and be like “Oh, that’s where I messed up” or “You know, that’s not my audience. We’re not sumo wrestling. Like that’s not my thing. Like we’re doing jujitsu. Like I’m not doing sumo, you know, or whatever.” I’m trying to think of whatever the parallel would be, but you just know where you belong and whatever. And then the one in particular was a— it was a corporate audience and it was for real estate agents. And they do not laugh at themselves for a second.

And all of their headshots are like glamor shots from like the early ’90s with like lasers, and poof hair, and whatever. And even though now they’re 30 years older, but you can’t make fun of that ’cause it’s all of them. So, you know, it’s not just like one of ’em didn’t update. It’s “No, none of you have.” And so, I found that out too where it’s like, yeah, when you bomb away on something that’s clearly obvious to everyone else, that’s really sensitive point for them I guess. But yeah, you just learn. I mean, I would imagine the same. Like you’ve been in some sparring type things where you move the wrong way and you get popped, well, I’m not gonna do that again except for yours are more physical bruising. Mine’s a more ego bruising, which I feel like lasts longer sadly, you know.

Tate: I was gonna say that’s probably worse. I have an answer by the way for my favorite comedian. Yeah, you talked about like being clever and storytelling. Mike Birbiglia.

John: Oh, Birbiglia. Yeah, absolutely.

Tate: Birbiglia’s hands down my favorite comedian. What was his last special? God Hates Jokes, was it?

John: Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Tate: I think it was something like that and then he had the other one, My Girlfriend’s Boyfriend.

John: Right. Exactly.

Tate: Just incredible how he tells the story the entire time and ties it back.

John: Yeah. It is very much the storytelling side of it. Yeah, absolutely. Very cool, man. Thank you so much, Tate, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This has been super, super fun.

Tate: Awesome. Yeah. Thanks for having me, man. Appreciate it.

John: Everyone listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Tate in action or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to read the book. So, thanks again for subscribing to the podcast on Apple Podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 545 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work. And if you like what the show’s about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth in the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every weekend. This week is no different with my guest, Bill Mandara, Jr. He’s the CEO at Mancini Duffy in New York City. And now, he’s with me here today. Bill, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Bill: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

John: This is gonna be a blast. But before I get started on music, which I love also, let’s get to know Bill on a new level here with 17 rapid fire questions. Well, maybe an easy one. I don’t know. You’re in New York. City cheeseburger or pizza?

Bill: Pizza.

John: Yeah. Hands down, easy. Like that was a slam dunk. How about favorite color?

Bill: Red.

John: Red. Okay. All right. How about a least favorite color?

Bill: Brown.

John: Brown, yeah. That is by far the least favorite of all of them. How about a favorite movie of all time?

Bill: Goodfellas.

John: Nice.

Bill: Either that or Pulp Fiction, depending on the day you ask me.

John: Right. Okay. Okay. All right. How about when it comes to puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Bill: I don’t really do any of them honestly. Sorry.

John: Fair. No. No. Don’t apologize at all. You’re being honest. That totally works. I don’t have time for that stuff. How about talk or text?

Bill: Definitely text.

John: Definitely text. Here we go.

Bill: Too much talking.

John: Right. Especially after this podcast. You’re like I’m done for the day. Like that’s it. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Bill: Probably De Niro.

John: There you go. How about oceans or mountains?

Bill: Oceans. East Coast.

John: Yeah, East Coast. There you go. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Bill: Definitely Star Wars, but not those horrible prequels.

John: Oh, I know, right? All I did was the original three, and I heard such bad things about the others. I was like I don’t wanna taint it. So I have yet to see anything besides the original. How about your computer, PC or Mac?

Bill: Definitely Mac.

John: Oh, okay. Yeah.

Bill: I don’t even understand PCs. Why anybody would use one.

John: Maybe it’s that part of it. Okay. All right. There you go. How about do you prefer more hot or cold?

Bill: Cold.

John: Cold. Yeah.

Bill: You can always put clothes on.

John: Exactly. Especially when you’re waiting for the subway in the city. It’s terrible. Ice cream. I’m a huge ice cream fan. Favorite ice cream flavor?

Bill: Mint chocolate chip.

John: Old school. Nice. I like it.

Bill: Green one though. Not that natural white stuff.

John: Right.

Bill: I want the food coloring.

John: Yeah. It doesn’t taste the same. If it’s not green, it’s not minty. I’m with you on that one. How about a favorite sports team?

Bill: New York Jets.

John: Ah, okay. Dave Diaz.

Bill: Sadly, Jets.

John: Yeah. There you go. Hey, but you’re a diehard. How about a favorite number?

Bill: 9.

John: 9. Is there a reason?

Bill: I don’t know. I mean, I was born in September. I don’t know. I just like 9. I like the way it looks.

John: No, that’s great. Very cool. All right. We got three more. When it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or a real book?

Bill: e-Book.

John: e-Book. Okay.

Bill: You can read them when you’re in the bathroom.

John: Right. There you go. And how about cats or dogs?

Bill: Definitely dogs.

John: Definitely. Yeah. Me too.

Bill: Yeah. Not a cat guy.

John: Yeah. Yeah. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Bill: My swimming pool.

John: Swimming pool, okay.

Bill: My favorite thing I own.

John: There you go. That’s solid. I love it. That’s awesome. And especially with a guy that has a lot of cool stuff. Swimming pool, top of the list. That’s great. So, yeah. So let’s talk music, man. How’d you get started? What did you play?

Bill: So I got started in the fifth grade. I went to small little Catholic school here in New Jersey, and there were two priests. They said— I don’t remember their names— Father whatever could teach you the guitar and Father whatever could teach you the drums. So I opted for guitar. And I was like “Okay, cool. When do I get to learn how to play?” You know, like whatever was my favorite at the time.

John: Yeah. Songs I hear on the radio. Absolutely.

Bill: I wanna hear something cool, right? Detroit Rock City. And then a guy got an acoustic guitar and then they showed you how to strum for 3 days. I’m like “Well, that’s not for me. Let me try the drums.” So I sat with the other priest and two guys,and they gave you a little pad. I’m like “Well, this kind of sucks too.”

John: Right? ‘Cause it mutes the sound. Right?

Bill: And then after about a week of that and my mother taking me to the store to buy a snare drum, I would just sit in a room and bang that. And my father somehow, as my father would tend to do, just came home one day with a drum set. I’m like “Where’d you get that? He goes “Ah, somebody owed me some money.” My dad was a contractor. So it was always like somebody didn’t pay him for something, so he got stuff. So he just literally came home with this drum set. And I would just sit there in my room over and over again with headphones on, listening to anything I could, went along with it for years. And that continued literally through middle school. And you know, I tried at my mother’s behest joining the band when I went to high school. And they gave you this giant Q-tip to put on your head. And I’m like “Look, I’m 140 pounds and, yeah, this doesn’t help me in my situation.”

John: Right? Right.

Bill: This isn’t why I started playing the drums.

John: Right?

Bill: So basically, I would just go to my parents’ basement every day and play along with like Van Halen II and Rush Moving Pictures till I got the note. And then around then, you know, I met some friends in high school, formed some bands. We played the same like three Judas Priest songs over and over again. Horribly.

John: Right.

Bill: You know, we thought we were the best.

John: Sure. In your high school, I’m sure you were.

Bill: No, we were bad. We were bad. We were really bad. And then, you know, I think in high school, there was actually like a battle of the bands and we played Run to the Hills by Iron Maiden. And then instead of singing along with Run to the Hills, the crowd was chanting get off the stage.

John: That’s awesome.

Bill: Somewhere, a friend of mine has a video of that, which I hope never resurfaces.

John: That’s fantastic.

Bill: Yeah. I mean, music has always been kind of what I wanted to do, what I enjoy. And you know, I mean, just fast forward to when I was old— Yeah, I played in bands in college with some other guys. You know, much better we played. Played around New Jersey, Jersey Shore, North Jersey area in the ’90s. All the stuff you would expect to be playing in the ’90s. I had a lot of fun. Played in some original bands. I had a bass player that was perpetually late to practice, and my singer at the time also played drums. So any time you’d get up to go to the bathroom, you’d sit down at the drum kit and you couldn’t get back. So I just picked up the bass and started learning how to play that. And then, eventually, I don’t even know when at some point, just kind of picked up guitar too and just kinda went from there.

John: That’s fantastic, man. I love it. But I mean, to write your own music and— I mean, that’s super, super hard, you know. It’s hard enough to play the instruments, but then to write your own music, that’s the next level.

Bill: It actually kind of came out in an odd fashion. We had this guy in the office who left. He would leave very bizarre voicemails to people. And I thought it was a joke. And I said,
“What if I take this voicemail and just put it to music?” He had this kind of weird voice.

John: That’s great.

Bill: And I just started playing. And then there were several voicemails. And you know, I would just kind of make these goofy things, and sit there and noodle around the guitar, and annoy my wife. And kinda during COVID, I guess, I was listening to my son practice for— He did a lot of musicals in high school. And I was like “Wow, he could actually sing pretty well. Let me see about this.” So during COVID, we redid my house, and I’m in this room I’m in now. I, kind of hit or miss, bought a lot of equipment, bought the wrong stuff, returned it, bought other stuff, and kind of built my own little recording area here.

John: Okay.

Bill: And learned how to use Logic Pro and do some basic recording. And in the process realized I actually could write some songs. And I was always like “Well, I can’t write lyrics. That’s why I just do these goofy voicemail things.”

John: Sure.

Bill: And a friend of mine was just like— We were playing golf one day. And he was like “All right, look, you can write lyrics. You know, I’ve seen how you write.” And gave me a couple tips. And then, again, during COVID, sitting around with nothing to do, I just started writing lyrics. And then my son came in, started singing ’em. And you know, again, through the process of trying, failing, trying, failing again, eventually, you know, figured out how to write some songs, record them, get ’em mastered, throw ’em out there. And you know, I have one album that we released about almost 2 years ago. And I have another one that’s almost done now, about another 12 songs. I have like five more songs behind that too that are like all kind of half done.

John: That’s great though. But I mean, just like a fun, creative outlet. And also too, the thing to take away from this is, I mean, you’re downplaying the musicianship of it all. But you know, like you don’t have to be good. You don’t have to be a touring band that everyone’s heard of. You enjoy it, you know. So like that’s all that matters, is you enjoy it.

Bill: Absolutely. I mean, look, you know what I mean. I was into a lot of music that’s far more intricate than I can necessarily write on the guitar. But yeah, I mean, listen, it’s a great outlet and it’s actually interesting to me how many people in my profession in architecture and the real estate industry in general, but particular architecture are also musicians. There’s several people in my office that are as well. A few years ago, we actually got enough of us together. We played like our Christmas party for a couple of years in a row.

John: That’s awesome!

Bill: Yeah. And then one of the guitar players went to go work for Elon Musk.

John: Right. Never heard of him. But that’s a fun way to just like let people see you come alive.

Bill: Oh, yeah. Oh, it’s a cool way to get to know each other too because you kind of see each other all day, and everybody’s stressed out and yelling. You’re getting yelled at by clients, whatever. And then one night, we go to discovery play. You go to a practice studio, have some beers or whatever, and be like “Wait, a second, everybody’s actually pretty cool.”

John: Right?

Bill: And like “Hey, I can actually play.” You’re like “Wait a second. Maybe, you know, this guy is pretty good.”

John: Yeah, we could do some stuff here. That’s awesome, man. Like do you have any favorite memories from back in the day from when you were performing besides the talent show that you got booed off the stage?

Bill: That was definitely not a favorite memory. Well, I would definitely say my favorite memory of playing was the fact that I met my wife a million years ago.

John: Okay.

Bill: You know, we happened to be playing somewhere, and she knew my bass player. So it’s actually how I wound up meeting my wife. So that’s my favorite for sure.

John: Which is the reason you learned the drums right there. It was nice to be in the marching band.

Bill: Why does anybody start playing music when they’re a kid?

John: Right. Totally. Exactly.

Bill: ‘Cause there’s one reason. So, you know, to check that box, success. That was obviously cool. But in particular, we used to play this place in New Jersey. It was called The Clubhouse. And it was a really cool place. It was like 3 floors and they had like— if you were lucky enough to play the main floor one— There was a lot of people, and it was huge sound system, and it was great. We played there, again, mid-’90s. And one of the guys goes to my singer and goes “Last time you were here, you played Rage Against the Machine. There was a mosh pit and this, that, the other. You better not play it. You don’t play it, whatever.” And the guy was real jerk. I overheard. And me being me— He told a couple people. I made sure my guitar player didn’t know about it. And sure enough, the last song, I look at him like “Come on, let’s go. Let’s do it.” He was like “Yeah. Let’s just do it.” And I start the song. Oh, I thought this guy was gonna kill him.

John: Bulls on Parade. Here it comes.

Bill: I think it was actually Freedom.

John: Oh, okay. Okay. All right.

Bill: Yeah, it didn’t go over too well and it was really neat.

John: It was the last song. What are you gonna do? All right. We’re done anyway.

Bill: What? You’re not gonna pay us the like $84 you were gonna pay us anyway? It’s not something for money.

John: Exactly.

Bill: And again, that’s up there. And then more recently, I think, you know, not one particular moment, but just recording with my son was really cool.

John: Yeah, that’s powerful.

Bill: It’s a really cool thing. You know, you can do it together. It’s a fun thing to have and it’s kind of a really neat bond to have with your son.

John: No, I love it man. I love it. And so, do you feel like any of your music side gives you a skillset that you bring to work?

Bill: I think so. High school band aside, you know, when you’ve gone out and you’ve played to like your mom, and your girlfriend, and like four other people out there in a place that holds like 150 people, you get a little bit of humility.

John: Right.

Bill: And then quite the opposite too, like, you know— So I mentioned before, I’m a cover band, my singer played the drum, so we would switch off. And not that I’m a great singer, but when you go out there in a place down the shore with 250 drunk people, you don’t even have a drum set to hide behind, it kinda makes you not be the shy kid that you are. So it helps with that too. And again, I think it’s just the overall creativity, which is why I think in architecture, in particular, there’s so many musicians too because it’s a good creative outlet.

John: Yeah. No, I love it. I mean, you know, I was a CPA and my creative outlet was comedy. And it’s not necessarily super common, but it’s really great that it’s the other side of the brain, you know. So then the analytical side or whatever can just take a rest.

Bill: Make people laugh when they found out they owe the government a bunch of money in tax.

John: Right. Exactly. Plus, like when you’re auditing people and they— Like I walk in and people are like “Man, you’re my favorite auditor ever.” And I’m like “Is that a compliment? Like maybe I’m not good. Like I don’t know what’s happening right now, but I’ll take it. I’ll take it.” No, that’s great though, but I love how you’re sharing it and then getting a group together to play at holiday parties or things like that. Like is it something that you’ve talked about through your career?

Bill: Oh, absolutely. I think that nobody can be around me for more than half an hour and not hear some sort of musical reference. In particular, probably from some rush lyric that I used to get through most of my literature classes in college.

John: There you go.

Bill: Yeah, no. I’m always dropping some sort of music reference. And again, I think it’s just one of those things everybody kind of knows ’cause I’m not shy about it. And I’m obviously a bit opinionated on music too.

John: There you go. Did it ever cross your mind, especially when you were younger, like oh, people are gonna judge me or whatever or it’s just take it or leave it?

Bill: Not at all. I mean, I would say that I kind of— For me, at least, being an architect was just kind of almost like what I was just gonna do since I was a kid ’cause my family was in the business and it was just that. And you know, in my 20s or so, it kind of got to the point where it was like in the back of my mind, I kind of thought maybe, just maybe, the music thing might work out and, you know, I’ll go to college, and I’ll do this architecture stuff to keep my parents off my back and keep them cool. And then eventually, I think in my mid-20s or so was when I realized I gotta kind of get serious about the architecture thing because—

John: Right. I guess this is what I’m doing. All right.

Bill: Well, one day, the Smashing Pumpkins are gonna need a drummer and call me.

John: Yeah. Right.

Bill: And it turns out they needed a drummer and they didn’t call me.

John: Right. They did need a drummer. You’re right.

Bill: Yeah. I was supposed to go to that show actually. I was at the Garden I think of like ’95.

John: Oh, no.

Bill: But yeah, it came to the point where I was like, all right, I guess I gotta be serious about this.

John: You just Milli Vanilli fake it. It’s just like And I did take a little break for music here and there for about maybe about 4 or 5 years. Not on purpose. Just I had gotten married at that time. And you know, life starts to happen. I didn’t really play too much music. And then in the early 2000s, you know, my early 30s or so, I started playing again with some other people and then always played on my own. And then recently, you know, got back. I’ve played with several different people. I have a bunch of guys— One of my best friends since I was 16 years old invited me to play with this band in 2019.

John: Nice.

Bill: We played a really cool show. And these were like, you know, really top flight musicians. I was kinda like “Ooh, I better practice.”

John: I better practice.

Bill: I don’t usually practice that much.

John: You just Milli Vanilli fake it. It’s just like I’ll air guitar it.

Bill: Got to play with them and then, you know, this was gonna be great. And then, of course, COVID happens and that wasn’t the thing anymore. But I was actually recording some music with those guys too. So it’s been great being able to play with different people. Even some of the music I have coming out now, I’ve reached out to some friends I used to play with. And one of my buddies who used to be in my band, outstanding guitar player, he played down my three solos for me on songs. That’s a new thing for me now collaborating on songs I’ve written on, but it’s great.

John: Right? You’re like the new Jay-Z, man. But when you weren’t playing music, do you feel like when you went back, it was different at work or like the corporate side of you?

Bill: No. No.

John: Or did it matter?

Bill: No. It’s always just there.

John: Well, yeah, it was definitely always under the surface.

Bill: Yeah. I don’t mean to sound cocky at all ’cause I’m certainly not like that. But I would say that playing the drums is just one of those things for me. It’s like riding a bike, you know. I could go years without doing it and just sit down and be fine. Will it take me a little bit to get your timing back? Sure. But overall, like it’s something that I can just kind of do.

John: Yeah.

Bill: It’s probably the only thing I’ve ever just done that felt natural.

John: That’s amazing.

Bill: I was never very athletic at all. My father would joke around that I tripped over chalk lines and—

John: Oh, man.

Bill: People would go see me to play the drums. They’re like “I don’t understand it. Like you’re so uncoordinated yet you can play the drums. Does that make sense?”

John: Yeah. But the cymbals in the drums are everywhere in a drum kit. So it’s like I can’t miss.

Bill: That is why I have so many cymbals in drums.

John: Right? Right. Man, this guy’s amazing. It’s like I don’t know what I’m doing. That’s really cool, man. I love it. That’s super awesome. And I guess how much do you feel like it’s on an organization to create space for people to be able to share their “and” versus how much is it on the individual to just get it going?

Bill: I think it’s unbelievably important because if you go somewhere every day and you know you have to fit into a mold and just be that person— and I did that for quite a while. It’s kind of soul sucking, and it’s not somewhere you’re gonna feel comfortable. And honestly, it’s also important to get to know people. It’s good to know. If you want somebody to work somewhere and be there long term, it’s good to know who they are, who they are as a person. Plus, it’s interesting. Like what we do is very stressful. It can be a lot of fun. It can be exhausting sometimes. And it is good to know what other people do. And I think that was kind of one of the interesting things about COVID too was that everybody on these Zoom meetings got to see like “Hey, got a guitar back there. I didn’t know you played guitar.” Or “You got a pair of golf clubs back there. I didn’t know you played. We should get out.” Of all the crappy stuff, I think it was kind of interesting. So we did get to know like what some people’s “ands” are, which was pretty cool.

John: Yeah. And it’s a nice reminder of “Oh, yeah, I work with humans that have other dimensions to who they are.”

Bill: We’re not robots. We’re not little AI things running around.

John: I just figured in your background you’d have a bunch of like Lego buildings. You’re like doing architecture at home too.

Bill: Right. Exactly.

John: And you’re like “No. Like, what, are you crazy?” It’s like maybe there’s the one person that does that, but no, no one does that. Like what are you talking about? And I think that’s great, man. That’s really cool. Is there something that Mancini Duffy does specific to get people to share their “ands” or encourage that?

Bill: It really just kind of happens organically. So, you know, we are a pretty social firm. Every once a month, we have a town hall, and we order food and have drinks and everything. We have what we call a summer camp where everybody comes over for a barbecue with their family. We’ll alternate houses between mine and my partner, Christian. And through that actually, you start to find out these things about people. Like when we had the party at my house, I was talking to one of my coworkers. And I’m a big barbecue guy. I have a Big Green Egg. And her and her husband were like “Oh, my God, you have it.” And then we kind of wound up learning that like there are these awesome barbecuers. And so, I think a lot of it just kind of happens organically. I guess, to me, anything else other than like these things happening organically just kind of feels disingenuous and contrived, and that’s just not who I could ever— I mean, it works for a lot of people. Just it doesn’t work for me.

John: But also, you set the tone at the top, which is great, where you’re like on Zoom or on the video calls. You got stuff in the background. You know, when you’re out, you’re talking about music. You’re talking about barbecue. You’re bringing not work lingo to these conversations when it’s not time for that. We’re with families, and we’re hanging out, and we’re getting to know each other type of thing.

Bill: And realistically, everybody’s gonna do their best work when they’re happy and when they’re comfortable, when they’re themselves, you know.

I mean, I think that for better or worse, I learned a long time ago that I’ve been a square peg in a round hole many, many times, and I’ve learned to just embrace it, and it can’t just be me.

John: Right? No, it’s not. I’m with you, man. I’m a square peg in an octagon hole. It’s not even round. It’s like some weird thing.

Bill: Right. And so, again, just, you know, I think allowing people to be themselves and express themselves. And what they do and learn about each other is just the way where everybody’s gonna eventually do their best work as well.

John: Yeah, no, you’re right. I mean, when I do like leadership presentations and stuff, it’s “Are your people living their best life?” ‘Cause if they are, they’ll do their best work.

Bill: That’s important. It’s important.

John: Yeah. No, I love it. That’s awesome, man. That’s so great. So I guess before we wrap this up, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe they know all the Rush lyrics as well or no, but they have a hobby or an outside of work passion that they feel like, well, no one’s gonna care ’cause it has nothing to do with my job?

Bill: I would just say (A) I don’t wanna sound like Nike, but literally just try it. Just do it. Just throw it out there and be yourself. You know? I mean, if you’re into cooking, if you’re into gardening, whatever it is, just throw it out there and just be yourself, and you’re gonna be a much happier person.

John: I love it, man. That’s so good. So good. Well, I feel like before we wrap this up, it’s only fair that I turn the table since I rudely fired away questions at you at the beginning. So we’ll make this the first episode of The Bill Mandara, Jr. podcast. Thanks for having me on. And I’ll let you pick the intro music, so I don’t wanna mess that up, but I’m all yours. Whatever you got, man.

Bill: Well, my question ’cause you just moved your head though, I was gonna ask about that helmet, is that a Notre Dame helmet back there?

John: It is a Notre Dame helmet. Yeah, absolutely.

Bill: Did you go to Notre Dame?

John: I went to Notre Dame. Huge Notre Dame football fan. College football in general. But yeah, Notre Dame’s definitely my team for sure.

Bill: It is intriguing to me, anybody that does stand up, because I feel like you have to have nerves of steel, as outgoing as I tend to be, and sometimes you gotta breathe deep and do it. What was that like the first time you decided to go on a stage?

John: Oh, man, first time on stage was at the Funny Bone in St. Louis in Westport Plaza. I lived there, worked at the PWC office, and we had had a training in Pasadena. And so, I went down to the improv in Hollywood a couple of weeks when I was there. And I was like “Well, I could be as not funny as a couple of these people.” And that was Hollywood, you know. I didn’t realize you could just move to Hollywood, but anyway. So I went to the open mic night just to watch and then I was like “I’ll go now. Like I’ll definitely not be the worst person that ever did comedy.” So, the next week, I swiped a legal pad from the work supply closet, and I just was writing down joke ideas. And I had a full legal page of joke ideas, so just concepts.

And so, I went over to dinner at my parents’ house the night before, and I had already signed up. I was gonna go the next day. In their defense, I only read the joke concepts, so I didn’t do the joke. I just told them the joke ideas and I mean probably 40. And the only two responses I got were “We didn’t raise you that way” and my dad said “You can’t say that.” And I was like “Oh, this is not good at all. Like I thought all these were killer.” And so, I went over to my buddy’s house, and we figured out ones that were good, and then the next day went up. And it’s the funny bone and quite a few people from high school were there. Quite a few people from work. My parents were there. My mom was holding the video camera, so we didn’t realize to bring a tripod because it’s the first time.

And so, my parents laughed harder than anyone else in the audience. And I’m like “24 hours ago, you were like not moving a face, like no muscle. And now, you’re like—” The video is literally me telling jokes and then my mom like shaking the camera from laughing so hard. And it’s on VHS. I got it digitized and yeah. But I mean, the first time you go up, like I had a little index card in my hand of like set list basically. And it actually went pretty well. Like especially for the first time, it went really well. Like I already signed up. Like the emcee’s gonna say my name.

Bill: This happened in one way or another.

John: Yeah. So like I should have been nervous when I signed up the week before, but I’m not nervous now ’cause you’re gonna say my name and I have to go or else I look really stupid. But having people that I knew there, that made it more difficult honestly ’cause I was like “Oh, man, it’d be better if it was no one I knew.” And then who cares?

Bill: That was gonna be my next question. If you had a couple like throwaway gigs before you told people.

John: No. That was the first one and it was like good friends of mine. So I knew they’d be supportive anyway, and I think they were sort of like “I don’t know what he is gonna do. Like let’s find out.” I mean, probably like you playing the drums where it’s like “Well, let’s see what happens with this train wreck.”

Bill: Same thing with the mom with the VHS camera, you know.

John: Right? Yeah. And you gotta get it on digital before the tape erodes.

Bill: Yeah. Some of those tapes I hope melt, but—

John: Right? That’s awesome, man. Well, no, I appreciate you being a part of What’s Your “And”?, Bill. Thank you so much.

Bill: Thank you. It’s been fun.

John: And everyone listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Bill in action, or maybe connect with him on social media, or get links to his music, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

And don’t forget to read the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 543 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work. And who else are you is basically the question that it’s asking.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every weekend. This week is no different with my guest, Mary McDonald. She’s a principal at Hansen House Company in Duluth, Minnesota. And now, she’s with me here today. Mary, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Mary: John, thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.

John: This is gonna be a blast. We’ve been following each other on Twitter. I’ve been laughing at your tweets and I’m like we gotta get Mary on here. And there’s something more to her besides tax.

Mary: Absolutely. Yes.

John: Right? There we go. So we got 17 rapid fire questions. Get to know Mary out of the gate here in case we go do photography together. I need to make sure that we can hang out and it won’t get weird. So we’ll start with maybe— This is one of my favorite ones. Favorite Disney character.

Mary: Oh, my gosh. I’m gonna have to go with Aurora. She was the first one that I ever saw on a movie screen. That was my first movie.

John: Nice. Yeah. Very cool. All right. How about a puzzle? Sudoku, crossword, or a Jigsaw puzzle?

Mary: Crosswords all the way. I’m a words girl.

John: Okay. Okay. How about a favorite color?

Mary: All of them.

John: There you go. Just in case they’re listening. Just in case they’re listening. Like we don’t want any—

Mary: I’m a tax person, John. It depends, right? What’s my mood, what’s the weather like, what are we wearing, what do we need.

John: Right. Or am I looking at it? Am I wearing it right?

Mary: Right. Exactly. Is somebody else wearing it? Am I judging it?

John: Right. Well, I’m judging it either way, but—

Mary: Right. Right. Yeah.

John: So I feel like I know the answer to this one, but I’m still gonna ask. Least favorite color.

Mary: No. I love all my children. Right?

John: All right. I was gonna try and trick you ’cause you were gonna be like brown. And I’ll be like “Ah! Ha! There it is.” But all right. Fair enough. Are you more talk or text?

Mary: Text, I think. My mother even will text me to call her, so yeah.

John: Oh, okay.

Mary: She’s figured it out.

John: That works. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Mary: Oh, you know, I think I’m gonna have to go Sean Connery.

John: Oh, nice. Classic. He’s in some good stuff. That’s for sure. Oh, this an important one. Toilet paper roll. Is it over or under?

Mary: Over. There’s no question.

John: All right. All right. Fair. That’s typically the second half of that answer.

Mary: There’s one right answer.

John: Right? Normally, I’d say there’s no wrong answers in this, but there are on some of them. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Mary: All right. I’m sorry to do it ’cause I’m a tax person again. Right? It depends. Which Star Trek are we talking?

John: Oh, okay.

Mary: So, you know, I’m a next generation girl, so I love my Picard. But Star Wars is classic, so I don’t know if you can go wrong.

John: So, both. I’ll take it. That’s all right. Are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Mary: Early bird.

John: Early bird.

Mary: Yeah. I think the older I get, the earlier I—

John: Right? It’s weird like that. It’s like “Oh, man, I just wanna sleep in.” It’s like “Nope, not happening.” Your computer, more PC or a Mac?

Mary: So, for work, it’s PC at home. And personally, it’s Mac.

John: Oh, look at you, ambidextrous.

Mary: I am.

John: All right. I’m impressed. All right. Ice cream. I’m a huge ice cream eater. You do it a cup or in a cone?

Mary: In a cup. Unless you’ve got the waffle cones with like the malted milk balls in the bottom. I don’t like the drippy part.

John: Oh, malted. Okay. I like that. Them melted in the bottom. So then it keeps it from dripping out.

Mary: Exactly. And then you’ve got the melted milk ball at the bottom.

John: Yeah, there’s a prize at the end. I like that. That’s next level right there. I’m impressed. All right. All right.

Mary: That’s right. Stick with me, kid.

John: Right? If you take anything away from this podcast, you can hit stop now, everybody. And we’ve already learned something.

Mary: That’s right. You know how to eat ice cream cones.

John: Right? We’ve all got diabetes. But either way, it’s all good.

Mary: It’s all right.

John: It’s all good. Like it tastes yummy. Prefer more hot or cold?

Mary: Hot. I live in Duluth, Minnesota where it gets cold a lot, but I definitely prefer hot.

John: But it’s like so cold. It’s hot there.

Mary: It burns, right? Your face burns when you go outside.

John: I’ve been where in the morning, like the night before, it’s like frozen over the lake. And then all of a sudden, like the next morning, you’re like “Oh, there’s water there. Okay, good to know. There’s boats.”

Mary: Nice. Okay. Sweet.

John: Well, the icebreaker coming through. It’s like “What?”

Mary: That’s like the best time of year when the icebreaker comes through. Yeah.

John: That’s some next level stuff. All right. Balance sheet or income statement?

Mary: I know that you’re supposed to say balance sheet ’cause that’s where everything’s kept track of, but I think in terms of usefulness to clients and just in general, profit and loss

John: No, I agree. I don’t think there is a right answer to be honest. And I think it’s funny how people justify the difference. You get the full trial balance people. You get everybody that wants everything and it’s like “Mmm…”

Mary: Right. Yeah.

John: Slow down there. You’re not looking at everything. You’re just asking for that to be a pain to the client.

Mary: Sure.

John: All right, we got four more. Do you have a favorite number?

Mary: 2.

John: And the reason?

Mary: It’s the first even number.

John: Ah, nice. All right, there we go. There’s a reason. Books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Mary: So, ideally, real book. I love the feel of ’em. I read too much and too fast, so I have all of them on e-Books. Plus, there’s the instant gratification of, you know, you’re in the middle of a series and you just want the next one. Amazon is brilliant. Okay, just gimme the next seven.

John: Right? Right? They hook you like that. They really do.

Mary: Oh, seriously. They take way too much of my money.

John: Right? That’s awesome. Two more. A favorite band or musician.

Mary: All right. This one is trickier for me. I’m not a huge auditory person. And so, I don’t necessarily know. Can I go with like a genre?

John: Yeah, totally.

Mary: So like ’80s. ’80s music.

John: So Madonna, some Cyndi Lauper, some— All right.

Mary: Exactly. You know, little Whitesnake.

John: Oh, okay.

Mary: Some AC/DC. Let’s get across the board here, but yeah.

John: Okay. All right. I like it. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing.

Mary: My relationships.

John: Ah, nice. That’s good. That’s rich. I like that. So let’s talk outdoor macro photography. I know what outdoor is. What is macro?

Mary: It’s the opposite of economics, right? So macro photography is when I can get right down into the depth and I’m taking pictures of really tiny things.

John: Ah, really up close.

Mary: Yeah.

John: Okay. All right.

Mary: Really up close.

John: And so, what are some of the favorite things that you’ve taken pictures of? I mean, is this like a bigger thing that then you zoom in on like a tree bark, like a little part, or is it like tiny, tiny bugs?

Mary: I’ve done both.

John: Okay.

Mary: Yeah. So we actually have some property north of Duluth if you can imagine going north from here.

John: Right. Santa lives there.

Mary: Right. Exactly. Exactly. And the elves are tiny, so I’m just out and about taking pictures.

John: We’re gonna change this to elf pictures instead of outdoor macro photography.

Mary: Right. That’s what I do. I take pictures of elves, you know. Santa throws me a candy cane every once in a while.

John: Right. You’re on the nice list. You’re good.

Mary: I am. We go way back, me and Santa. So I kind of got into it because on part of this land we’ve got a fen. Technically, it’s what’s called a poor fen because there isn’t any water that directly feeds into it, but it’s all sphagnum moss and peats. And we have a whole bunch of carnivorous plants. So we’ve got pitcher plants and then there’s a plant called the round leaf sundew, which is the biggest leaf that I’ve seen. It’s about the size of like a pencil eraser like at the end of the pencil.

John: Oh, wow.

Mary: Yeah. So they’re tiny. They’re tiny, tiny little things. And then they’ve got these even smaller little dewdrops on the ends of the leaves. And so, I started taking pictures of those and then I was looking around, and there’s moss and all these mushrooms. You know, we’ve got cranberries and these tiny little flowers down there. It’s so interesting to see this other world outside of where we’re at. So that’s kind of how I got into it. And then some of it is too just, you know, zooming really close in on something. So it’s being able to look at something a little bit differently.

John: Ah, yeah, I like that a lot. That’s really good. And stuff that you probably walked by many times before until you actually just go through that lens literally and figuratively to just take the moment to just look at it differently. I like that.

Mary: Yeah.

John: That’s really cool. So were you into photography before or was it just something that got ramped up?

Mary: It’s something that just kind of got ramped up. So we had lived in Duluth before and we moved to the cities for a while. Now, we are back. So it’s really kind of as we’ve been back in Duluth, so since like 2016-17 that I’ve really started to get into it. As a kid, I loved the idea of photography. But growing up in the ’80s without digital photography, (A) there’s no instant gratification. You have no idea if your picture worked out or not until 3 weeks later when you go to the store and you pick it up and then you can’t remember what you were trying to get.

John: Right.

Mary: And I was always really frustrated because I can see the colors a certain way, I can see the shapes a certain way, and I couldn’t get the camera to do that work.

Now, part of that was because I had really basic cameras and I don’t have the background of actual photography. But with the cameras that are out now, with the digital cameras especially that are out and just my phone being able to get out, I can see what I’m doing, and I can see that it’s that image I have in my head. I’m able to get it across.

John: That’s cool. So do you prefer the phones or an actual like DSLR kind of—

Mary: I have an actual DSLR and I love taking it out. I find I’m directionally challenged, so you can throw me in the woods and I’m not coming home.

John: All right.

Mary: So I always have my phone with me regardless because that’s where the map is that shows me where I started.

John: There you go.

Mary: And the little icon with the little thing, the little radar symbol that says you’re facing this way, go this way to get to where you started.

John: Right.

Mary: So, you know, I always have my phone with me, and I sometimes find myself in the middle of the woods or an alder swamp or someplace where it’s just too much work to have the camera too. So I tend to use the camera more at home or with flowers around the house, things like that, and my phone out in the woods just because I’m less likely to damage something.

John: Yeah. Or lose it.

Mary: Exactly.

John: Plus, they’re heavy to be hiking around with.

Mary: They really kind of are. Yeah. The phone, you slip in your pocket. You walk along until you find something cool and then you can do it. Yeah. My husband has learned that if we are going walking together, he needs to be very patient because we’re stopping every couple feet ’cause “Oh, did you see this? When I look over there, there’s that.” Now, flip side, I have found a lot of things we can eat in the woods. So I feel like I’m, you know, providing some value to the family when we do it.

John: Oh, okay. Fancy. I like it. Wow. All right. So you’re like all like outdoorsy now.

Mary: You know, once you start taking pictures of things, and you look at it, and you’re trying to figure out what it is, then you learn about it. And now, you kind of know all these extra things.

John: You can go off grid.

Mary: Oh, let me tell you. Except in the winter because, now, why would I do that? I like my bed. I like my heat. I like my roof. It’s fine.

John: That would be nuts. That’s for sure. And so, do you have like some favorite pictures or things that have been more of your favorite type of things that you’ve taken or pictures that you’ve taken and you’re like “Wow, that’s really good, I can’t believe I took that”?

Mary: There have been some. Yeah. Some of the round leaf sundew. I have a tendency to look up too. I actually have them in my office, but I’ve got a picture from the inside of a birch clump. So, when one birch dies, oftentimes you’ll see like a group of 3, or 4, or 6 that grow around where the dead one had been. So there’s a space in the middle. And I was out and stood in the middle of it and then looked up. So I’ve got that picture looking up at the 6 trees around me. So that’s definitely one of my favorites.

John: Yeah. And I love how you mentioned that you have a print in your office like, so, you brought it in. So it’s a conversation starter I imagine.

Mary: Oh, absolutely. I actually have four of ’em right now. And we bought a printer so I could just rotate pictures out ’cause, you know what, why keep the same one there all the time?

John: Yeah. I imagine it brings you joy to see the pictures, to know that you took the pictures and then people are like “Oh, what’s she got in there now? Oh, there’s a new one.”

Mary: There’s a new one. And where was this one or what is this one?

John: Right.

Mary: It’s so hard to tell. You know, you get really enclosed to— I’ve got one up there right now that is the seed pods of moss.

John: Oh, wow.

Mary: Yeah. So when you look at the picture, it’s hard to know what it is. And if you’re to look at it from a distance, right, it would just be moss. But once I got down, I was able to kind of zoom in and look at the rest of it. It’s just these really cool pods with these little fluffy things coming out.

John: That’s very cool.

Mary: And it’s fun to be able to look at ’em too, right? I get to look and say “Oh, yeah, I remember that day. I remember that day.” Or when clients are really pushing the envelope of what’s appropriate, you could take a minute and look and say “Oh, you know what, that was a really nice day.” Eventually, I will get back to that and be able to be outside and not dealing with this person.

John: Yeah. No, I love it. That’s exactly it. It’s things that bring you joy and then you’re able to have them in your office and then it’s cool that other people know that about you and that you don’t hide it. Was there a part of you that was like “Oh, I don’t know if I should tell people that I took these ’cause they’re gonna judge me for whatever”?

Mary: Oh, gosh, absolutely. I still struggle with the idea of calling myself a photographer. You know, I take pictures. I trump in the woods and I take pictures.

John: That’s great!

Mary: That’s what I do. Right. And my office manager will say to me “Well, how is that not a photographer?” I’m like it’s for me.

John: That’s fair.

Mary: So, yeah. So I struggle with the label of it and then of course kind of saying “Are people gonna like it and all the rest of this?” And then I finally realized that I really don’t care if other people like it or not ’cause I do.

John: Exactly. It’s your office.

Mary: It’s my office.

John: Yeah. It’s not distracting people from getting their work done or anything. It’s not whatever crazy. And I found from interviewing so many people that the label is definitely a thing that you’re not alone about. But if you say I enjoy photography or I take pictures, are they good?

It doesn’t matter. I enjoy it. I’m doing it for me. I’m not doing it for your approval. And it brings you joy, and that’s great. And so, you’re not alone in that for sure.

Mary: Good.

John: And it’s actually 100% okay to be not amazing at something ’cause it’s just a hobby.

Mary: Well, and that’s just it. It’s a hobby. It’s something that brings me joy that I do outside of the office that allows me space to be myself, to create. Right? I think that people need to have some sort of creation in their lives. And we get caught up in this idea that it has to be perfect and that people will buy it and all of these other things. And that’s not what creation is. You know, creation is creating.

John: It doesn’t have to be a side hustle. Yeah. ‘Cause, I mean, I’ve had plenty of people “Well, you know, I don’t make any money at it.” Great. You’re not supposed to. It’s not your job.

Mary: Right?

John: Like there’s other dimensions to who you are. All those dimensions don’t have to make money. You know, you’re a parent. You’re a spouse. Are you making money that way? And if you are, it’s illegal.

Mary: If you are, let me know how that’s working out for you. I have questions.

John: Is that tax deductible?

Mary: Oh, God. Right? Are we writing this off? If you have to ask, no.

John: Right. Right. No, exactly. Exactly. But I think it’s great that you overcame that and were like, you know, “Hey, I’m gonna share it.” And nothing bad has happened. If anything, it’s been the opposite where it draws people in closer whether they’re photographers or not.

Mary: And sometimes, you don’t know what’s happening. It allows people a chance to ask. Right? Because sometimes it’s like trying to get to know somebody, figuring out what’s happening, where they’re at, what’s going on, or maybe they’re stuck on something and they can come in. And it’s like “Oh, well, what is this one?”

John: Right?

Mary: Actually, the one that I get a lot, especially with the moss right now, is that hanging the right way?

John: Well, who knows? It could be—

Mary: I don’t know.

John: How do you wanna hang it? Let’s hang it your way. Like I don’t care.

Mary: It was growing up from the ground. Now, it’s on my wall. So, it’s not how it’s supposed to be anyway.

John: Right? That’s so great. I mean, cause there’s no right answer, especially on art even. Yeah. It’s like I don’t—

Mary: Well, that’s just it.

John: It could be however you want. But that’s cool to hear that like people have come in with a work question, but then they leave with an “and” question, you know, related to you. You’re an accountant and the photography side of you. And so, lead with the photography side ’cause that’s a lot better way to start a conversation.

Mary: It is. And I’m in a new office now, so I joined Hansen House Company in December of last year. So still just as we’re coming back from COVID and getting to know everybody, it has been really useful to have this because they don’t know what my knowledge is. They don’t know if I’m gonna be able to answer the question or not. And this is one that at least gets us started on something. Right? Accountants hate to be wrong, and we really hate to seem like we don’t know something. So to come into somebody stranger’s office with a question about what it is that we’re supposed to know can be really intimidating. So this way, at least there’s something else to talk about.

John: That’s so true. Such a great point. And also, too, like your job title, I mean you’re a principal, you know. It’s like yikes. You know? And so, that’s intimidating. The title alone.

Mary: How hard is she gonna be? You know, what is she expecting? What is she like? I’m scary. I think people should just get used to it. Right?

John: Right? But then it’s like “No, it’s Mary. Just go talk to her. Ask her about her pictures.”

Mary: “You could talk to her. It’s fine.”

John: “It’s all good.”

Mary: It’s fine

John: She’s a real person. She’s got other things, you know. And so, you’ll get to the scary side in a minute, but lead with the pictures.

Mary: Right. Lead with the pictures. She’ll smile at you before she bites your head off.

John: Right? Not true. I don’t believe that for a second. You’re gonna bite the head off first and then— No. No.

Mary: Technically.

John: Yeah. Exactly.

Mary: Right. Let’s get it out of the way.

John: Right? But before the photography, which sounds like it’s someone new, were there other sides of you in your career that you would share or was the photography the thing that kind of cracked it open?

Mary: You know, photography was really kind of the thing that cracked it open. Before that, I read. That was kind of my big thing growing up. My mother would send me outside to play, and I would sit inside right by the screen door and read my book because technically it’s like I’m outside ’cause I’m getting fresh air.

John: Right. There’s a breeze.

Mary: There’s a breeze. There’s a breeze. And really, it’s just kind of been this exploration piece that has been new and that’s just kind of been fun. And to have this product, right, that makes me happy, that’s so easy. Before that, you know, I started off in big four and there was that idea that work is all you are and that’s it. You can’t be anything else. And in fact, if you are something else, you’re jeopardizing your relationships with your team. You’re letting them down because you’re not working.

John: Yeah, exactly.

Mary: So I think I let that mindset sink in until we came up here and then really had the opportunity to just say “You know what? That’s not who I am. I am more than that. I identify as more than accountant. I identify as a whole person.”

John: Yeah. Amen. And it’s so important. And do you feel a difference from pre-photography Mary to today?

Mary: Absolutely. I have better relationships with my clients. I have better relationships with my family. I like myself better because I’m allowing more of myself to be me. I think when we repress that and piece of us, we really missed out on who we are and being able to enjoy ourselves.

John: So true. And it’s scary how we do that to ourselves. You know? It’s just like I’m my own worst enemy. This is nuts. You know? And what’s even scarier is people that are like “Oh, I’ll get back to it.” It goes dormant and then it goes extinct. And then it’s like I forget what I used to love to do.

Mary: And then you struggle when somebody asks you “What do you love to do?” And you’re like “Well, I used to… Now, I… Right?” And then you get stuck back in that identity that what you do is who you are and that’s it. So then when you stop doing that, you don’t exist anymore.

John: Right, exactly. I mean, this is helping you retire. Yeah. But I mean, there’s so much cooler parts to the people around us and just asking about it, and finding out about it, and just caring. Like just have a genuine interest.

Mary: We get wrapped up in defining success by all of these external things. Right? Where are you at in your job? How much money are you making? All of those pieces. When in fact, we need to figure out what success looks like and then get there on our own. And success is so much more than just what we make, you know. It’s having those times and spending time with people you love and doing the things that you love to do. And when you can do that, even if your client fires you, you can still say that you’re successful because you’ve got all these other pieces.

John: Exactly. I love that. That’s so great. So great. What a great way to wrap it up. That’s awesome. So for everyone that listened past the melted milk dud in the bottom of the—

Mary: The malted, right, come on now.

John: The milk ball. Right. Sorry. Yeah. So there you go, everybody. That’s the candy at the bottom right there. That was so good. So good, Mary. And it was so fun having you be a part of this. But since I so rudely asked you with all those questions at the beginning, I feel like it’s only fair that we turn the tables and make this the first episode of The Mary McDonald podcast.

Mary: Excellent.

John: Right? So I’m all yours. Thanks for having me on as a guest.

Mary: John, thanks for joining me today.

John: Right?

Mary: I do have some get to know you questions. Doesn’t matter if I—

John: Oh, boy, here we go.

Mary: I know. Be ready. Be ready.

John: I’ve got seatbelts on. Hold on. Here we go.

Mary: It should be. All right. Movies. Watching them in the theater or at home?

John: Ah, wow. Yeah, that’s a good question. I’m gonna say at home. I feel like that now that at home has gotten— screens have gotten bigger and audio’s gotten better, it’s kind of the best without all the people around you talking or whatever they’re doing.

Mary: You are a previous accountant, aren’t you? “There’s people. Eww. Eww.”

John: I know the popcorn was made today also when I’m at home so like there’s that. So I guess at home. Plus then, you can hit pause, you can go to the bathroom, you can whatever. Like you get comfortable.

Mary: Right. You wear your pajamas. I got the dog with me.

John: Yeah. You take your shoes off and put your feet up in the theater, and they’re looking at you weird. It’s like “Wait, what’s wrong?” It’s like you act like you’ve been outside before. All right. All right.

Mary: All right. Favorite dinosaur.

John: Oh wow. That’s a great question. Favorite dinosaur. And my nephew Colin is gonna light me up for this ’cause he knows all of them. So I guess I would say probably the Velociraptor is pretty, pretty cool. Made famous by Jurassic Park of course. So that’s probably why. But it just seems like it’s one not to mess with.

Mary: Absolutely.

John: Pretty quick. And it’s nimble and I like that. That’s impressive. And it’s not the big T-Rex, like everybody says T-Rex. It’s more the one that brings the heat. It’s like, yeah, everyone’s scared of T-Rex, but you— Yeah, Velociraptor. Better watch out. Plus, it’s fun to say.

Mary: Right?

John: It’s just like “All right.” Imagine if you were a Veloci principal. Like how great will that be?

Mary: Right. I’m gonna have to figure this out. I’m like I have tiaras. Now, I have to figure out how to get like clothes.

John: Oh, right?

Mary: That would be good.

John: Just Veloci anything. Like I’m already in.

Mary: Veloci anything would be sweet. I know. You could do this.

John: Right?

Mary: All right. Ability to fly or be invisible?

John: Ah, yeah. That’s also a very good one. I guess the ability to be invisible. I’m not gonna be invisible all the time, but the ability to turn invisible when I would like to, like when I’m speaking at a conference and I haven’t spoken yet and everyone wants to meet me and they’re like “Oh, so what are you gonna speak on?” It’s like “I’m just gonna be invisible over here in the corner because I just watch.” Just watch. It will be a couple hours. Just watch. Like it’s just “Why do you need the preview? Just you’re gonna be there.”

So, yeah, I feel like the invisible ’cause there’s plenty of times where I’m just like “Ah, I just don’t really wanna go today.”

Mary: I don’t want people today.

John: Yeah. So I think invisible would be— I mean, flying would be cool, but we’re not gonna get greedy.

Mary: Right. I know. That’s fair. No, you get one.

John: Plus, I can fly now on airplanes. I can’t be invisible now.

Mary: True. Yeah. Technically, yes.

John: Technically, I like it. So I’m getting both. I’m getting both.

Mary: Wow. Look at you circumventing the rules. Nicely done.

John: Yeah. That’s why I was never in tax ’cause I would be in trouble.

Mary: Oh, Lord. All right. I need your past clients to call us.

John: I was immaterial difference guy. Immaterial difference.

Mary: Oh, that’s fine.

John: Like let’s just go home.

Mary: We got ‘ya. And then you’re stranded on a desert island. What book do you have with you?

John: Besides What’s Your “And”? ’cause that’s a pretty good one I heard.

Mary: Of course.

John: But no, no, I have two books that I really, really enjoy. One is The War of Art by Steven Pressfield. It’s so good. And then the other one that I enjoyed also that I recommend is The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks. The Big Leap. That’s also a good one. And then he has a follow-up one called The Genius Zone that I just actually read, so yeah. But The War of Art hands down. I read it every year. I wish I could read it more times a year. But The War of Art is so good. It’s more for creatives, but I feel like it applies to everyone anyway in some way. It’s a good read.

Mary: Well, we really all are creative. We just don’t allow ourselves to be.

John: In our own way. Exactly. So good, Mary. Well, thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? And I look forward to making it to Duluth some time and hanging out.

Mary: Absolutely. I’ll take you to the breweries around here.

John: There’s that too. All right. We can get some macro pictures of that stuff. Woo! Everyone listening, if you wanna see some of Mary’s pictures or connect with her on social media, her Twitter handle is Fire. Be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends. They get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 541 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And really quickly, I wanna plug globaldogart.com. Michael Puck was a guest on the podcast last year, and his “and” was dog photography. And he’s teamed up with other dog photographers from all over the world and created globaldogart.com. All the proceeds go to save 1 million dogs by 2030. And pictures of dogs foster social connections amongst people and promote trusting relationships in business settings. And researchers also confirmed that pictures of dogs increase our well-being and reduce stress, all things that make work better. So check out globaldogart.com. All the proceeds are saving dogs. So I just wanted to give it a quick plug here.

And don’t forget to check out the book, What’s Your “And”? It’s on Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Indigo, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And please don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast soon. Don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every weekend. And this week is no different with my guest, Clint Murphy. He’s the CFO at Mosaic Homes in Vancouver, Canada, and the host of The Pursuit of Learning podcast. And now, he’s with me here today. Clint, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Clint: Thanks for having me. Really excited to talk to you today.

John: No, this is gonna be a blast. And for anyone that didn’t hear me on The Pursuit of Learning, we get to turn the tables, which is super fun. So I had such a blast. So I’m excited to have you be a part of this. And on my show, we do 17 rapid fire questions right out of the gate. So, things that I’m glad you didn’t ask me honestly when I was on your show.

John: I’m stretching. I’m ready.

Clint: Yeah, you’re ready. You’re all buckled in. Here we go. All right. Star Wars or Star Trek?

John: Star Wars.

John: Yeah. Me too. Same. How about your computer, PC or a Mac?

Clint: PC.

John: Yeah, two for two. We might be twins. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Clint: Oh, gosh. For me, that would be— Right now, I’d say it’s a Coke zero.

John: Coke Zero. Okay.

Clint: I’ve given up alcohol. It’s a new one.

John: Good for you, man. Good for you. Coke Zero. Okay, that counts. How about ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Clint: Always a waffle cone.

John: Oh, waffle cone even. that’s an upgrade. Nice. Fancy. All right. How about do you prefer more hot or cold?

Clint: I prefer hot.

John: Oh, hot. Okay. All right. Since you have the CFO background, accounting background, balance sheet or income statement?

Clint: Always the income statement.

John: Always the income statement. There you go. Just show me the number. Let’s get to it.

Clint: Let’s make some money.

John: Yeah. Right. How about a favorite sports team?

Clint: Favorite sports team right now would be the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

John: Oh, really? Why is that?

Clint: I love Tom Brady. I mean, he is the epitome of a high performer, and I chase optimal or high performance. And I mean, gosh, he’s 1 year older than me and still playing well in the NFL. That just scares the crap out of me. So, you know, it gives you and me an idea of what’s possible.

John: Yeah, exactly. Especially when you see his draft picture from the combine.

Clint: Yeah, exactly.

John: And then today, it’s like his hair’s gotten better. It’s like what is going on? Like I don’t know what, his diet or the cryogenic something. I don’t know what’s happening, but whatever it is, it’s working. How about a favorite number?

Clint: 14. Just I think when you’re a kid, my birth date. And so, it ends up sticking.

John: How about books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Clint: So, if it’s fiction, then I am great on an e-Book. And if it’s nonfiction, it has to be in my hands.

John: Yeah. No. I agree. Yeah. That works. How about a favorite animal? Any animal at all?

Clint: Oh, dogs.

John: Dogs. Yeah. It’s hard to beat dogs.

Clint: You’re plugged at the beginning. Dogs are just— they’re our best friends for a reason.

John: Yeah, no, absolutely. They’re amazing. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzle?

Clint: Out of all those three, I would definitely do Sudoku.

John: Okay. That’s how I used to do my accounting, so that’s probably why it’s best.

Clint: Exactly. Exactly right. Exactly. You’re right.

John: There you go. There you go. How about a favorite color?

Clint: Oh, favorite color. I’m going to go with blue.

John: Yeah, mine. Same. How about a least favorite color?

Clint: Oh, gosh, yellow.

John: Yellow? Yeah. That seems to be— Brown’s been #1, but yellow’s creeping up lately. It’s too sunny or something. Would you say you’re more talk or text?

Clint: Oh, text. Only text.

John: Text. There we go. So my apologies for making you do a podcast.

Clint: No, it’s a totally different venue. But when it comes to the phone, I don’t answer it.

John: Right.

Clint: Just like if it’s important, text me and maybe I’ll call you.

John: Right. There you go. We got three more. Favorite actor or an actress.

Clint: It’s had to shift over time. It was Mel Gibson until he started to get into some challenging life decisions. So today, I will go with Keanu Reeves.

John: Ah, yeah. And also, just a good guy.

Clint: Yeah. He’s evolved well.

John: Yeah, definitely. That’s for sure. Yeah. Toilet paper roll, over or under?

Clint: I think you have to go over.

John: I mean, I would think so too, but there are people with cats that argue differently. And those people are scary, so I don’t talk to them.

Clint: Yeah. Problem one was cats.

John: That’s when I hit stop on recording the podcast and then we don’t release their episode, and I deny it ever happened. No, I’m kidding. I’m totally joking. All the cat people right now are tweeting me “rawr.”

Clint: We won’t hold that against them.

John: Right. Right. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Clint: The favorite thing I own would probably be a sauna that I put in my office at home.

John: Oh, wow.

Clint: So at the end of the day, after a workout, long day, I can jump in there for an hour and then you come out of that, hit the bed and just out cold.

John: Yeah. And sleep is great too.

Clint: Oh, yeah. ‘Cause your body’s regulating that heat. And so, you just go right out.

John: You’re just gone.

Clint: Yeah.

John: That’s awesome. I love it, man. That’s so cool. So cool. So, let’s talk writing, and podcasting, and how’d you get started in that world.

Clint: Yeah. So, similar to you, I was in the accounting world, and I was working my way up the ladder, and I got to CFO. And then around 2018, I started to think “Well, what’s the next opportunity?” And where I am, that really is the opportunity, I’m at the top. And unless I leave to start my own business, become a president, or I become an owner of my own shop, then I’m at the top for me. And so, then I started to say “Well, how long can I be at the top?” And I talked to my boss. And I gave him a timeline for how long I could be there and set that around January 2018. And then I started to think “Well, what am I gonna do?”

And in January 2020, right before COVID, I went on a silent retreat. And I was gone for a week. And on the flight home, I drew a roadmap of what I was going to do when I approached retirement. And a large part of it was write podcast, public speak, coach and consult, real estate and venture capital or private equity investing. But I thought I created a game plan and a roadmap, but it wasn’t supposed to start until let’s say 2024. And then COVID came and my kids’ activities got canceled. I was working from home. I didn’t have a commute. Just the amount of time I had available on a day skyrocketed.

And I’m not a person who can be idle. And so, I said, “Well, why don’t I do one of these things? Why don’t I just launch a podcast? Like let’s start.” So I thought about that in November, bought 4 or 5 books, read them, how to interview, etc., etc., and pressed go April 2021. And then the idea was “Well, I’ve gotta promote this.” And so, I started to do that on Instagram. And then all my colleagues, some of my colleagues, including all the shareholders, started following me on Instagram. And I thought this is awkward. So I stopped promoting the podcast on Insta and I found Twitter. None of them were there. It’s more my writing style. Short, tight, punchy.

John: Sure.

Clint: And after a while, John, I got even better at Twitter than almost anything I’d ever done. And the growth started to scale exponentially. And so, then I looked at it as a flywheel. Grow on Twitter, more people listen to the cast, I can invite on more and more authors, I’m not afraid to reach out to anyone. And so, now, they’re just sort of spinning together and growing together. And so, that got us to here. We hit 155,000 on Twitter—

John: Holy cow. Wow. Yeah.

Clint: …yesterday roughly. And we’ve been fortunate enough that we see a bit of a path for all of this. And so, it’s staying my “and.”

John: Yeah.

Clint: And at the same time, my wife is stopping her day job in 8 days and will start to work on everything I have on the go full time with me.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Clint: So my “and” will be ramped up with that additional firepower.

John: Yeah, no, absolutely. And that’s the thing is like, you know, even if it’s just on the side, if it’s revenue generating, that’s great. If it’s not, also great, you know. ‘Cause, I mean, for most people, to be revenue generating at anything is hard, you know. And especially enough to make a living. I mean, good God. You know? I mean, not everyone can be TB12 type of thing or Clint Murphy. And I made that leap as well. And I’m really hesitant to tell people that that’s okay because, I mean, I don’t want it to not work. And you’re going to find me first and punch me in the face first. You’re like—

Clint: You told me to do this.

John: Where is that idiot that told me it would work? I’m gonna go find him. I’m gonna use my last nickel to get to Denver and find John Garrett and punch him in the face and then fly home, but that’s cool, man. That’s cool to hear that. Like it started out as just a hobby. Let’s just give it a go and try my best at it. And then, you know, you start to get some success and then it’s like, okay, well, let’s do things strategically to not just waste the opportunity.

Clint: Yeah. Exactly.

John: It sounds like the podcasting and the writing are also a flywheel.

Clint: They’re definitely a flywheel because the idea now is that the topics that I write about will be the type of guests I invite on the podcast. So the conversations, the writing— and they will also tie— like you were saying before we jumped on the call, they’ll tie to what my skillsets are and where I see my offerings coming down the road. What courses will I offer, what will I coach and consult on, what cohorts or in-person based training will I do. And so, it will all tie to the topics that are on the cast and the writing that I do. And so, all of that’s evolving right now, is an evolution of really picking what are we gonna focus on and refining that message on all the platforms and mediums.

John: No, no, that’s awesome. And then the thing is, is that as it starts to separate from— ’cause, I mean, I look at it as almost like the Wile E. Coyote, the Road Runner cartoon where the coyote’s got one roller skate on each side of a cliff and then it just gets wider, and wider, and wider as your legs get spread. And then eventually, it’s like “Well, now, I have to pick a side.” And so, when you pick that side, you still have to have an “and” because when your “and” becomes your career, then it’s crucial that you still have something else because otherwise it’s no different than being a CFO and having no “and” at all and “and” being more accounting. And it’s like “Well, that’s impossible. You’re lying.” And so, it’s crucial that there’s that side of it as well, you know, that you think about too.

Clint: Yeah. To pick up an “and.” If and when my “and” becomes the full thing, what am I doing to release at the end of the day?

John: And maybe it’s exercising, like you said, you know, or maybe it’s sitting in my sauna. Like that counts.

Clint: Yes. Yes.

John: You know? You know? And those are all things that I love to do also. If I told you that you could never sit in your sauna again, those are fighting words. Like you’re like “Dude, no, like that’s not happening.” It’s fun to just test people on “No, no, I’m really passionate about it.” I’m like “Well, if I told you you could never do it again, I’d be all right.” “Okay. Well, then that’s not your ‘and.'” Your and is that thing of if I tell you you can’t do this anymore, you’re like “Dude, we’re gonna fight now.” I’m not even telling you that we’re gonna fight. I’m just gonna punch you. Just it’s on.

Clint: I think the benefit I may have is definitely a level of ADHD. So my number of “ands” will never be an issue.

John: Right. There you go.

Clint: It’s like “Hey, put a couple of those ‘ands’ on the side.”

John: Slow down on some of those there, Skippy.

Clint: Totally.

John: Yeah. And so, do you feel like the podcasting and the writing has given you a skill that you bring to work?

Clint: It absolutely has because if I look at the 3 or 4 things that I’ve had on the go over the last 3 or 4 years, or 2 or 3 years, I would say the podcast is one, writing is a second, and I’ll add in a third one because I just about finished a 2-year mindful meditation teacher certification.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Clint: And so, that ties into part of what I write about and part of the way I approach it. And so, I would say over the last 2-1/2 years, I’m a lot calmer, a lot more deliberate. So when you think of as a CFO, probably 5 years ago or 6-7 years ago when I did a 360 and I sort of referenced a frantic energy, which was, you know, Skippy as you—

John: Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Clint: And now, I think it’s getting a little more— you know, dare I say, a little more monk-like, a little more calm and present. And so, the energy I give off is more in line with what my role is. That would be one. I’m much better at asking questions whether the people are on my team or off my team. And some of the shareholders, when we were on a road trip, and we were doing an architectural tour, and I was asking questions and the way I was asking them, and as you get, you know, “Oh, I asked this, they said I’m taking them down a path”, and he was like “Wow, I really noticed since you’ve started the podcast, your question abilities are much better.” So that would be two. And then the third one—

John: Yeah. And you said you’re welcome and here we go.

Clint: Yeah. Like this is why you should be happy with what I do.

John: Right?

Clint: And then I would say the last two would be— So one of the things you realize with writing is when you’re a clear, concise writer and you can logically get across to the reader what you intend, that implies that you have critical quality thinking. And so, by demonstrating better writing and improving my writing skills, my thinking is better. And therefore, my also verbal presentation is better. So as a CFO, if I have to give a talk to our bankers, lawyers, our colleagues, my ability to deliver a speech is way better.

And I think in general, John, because you know, when I had you on the podcast and we’re talking about What’s your And”?, we talked a lot about colleague engagement and how to keep a team, my ability to be a better leader, and colleague, and CFO, that’s all improved because most of the people I talk to are about personal growth, professional growth, financial growth. And so, that’s all things I can share with the people that work with me. Like I’ll often write a summary of “Hey, this is what I talked about on the podcast.” And I’ll send it to the managers on my team and say “Hey, here’s something for you to think about with your team. Here’s how you should approach a conversation with a new colleague.”

John: That’s awesome, man. Yeah, ’cause, I mean, it’s all communication skills, which at the end of the day is everyone needs in any job really. But when you’re in school, they don’t really tell you how to get those communication skills. You know, go start a podcast, go write more, you know. Like no one tells you that. And so, it’s cool that the thing that you’re doing, just because you love it and have a passion for it, gives you a skill that that makes you better at your job or several skills actually that make you better at your job, which is an added bonus that always, always, always comes up on this podcast. There’s always some way that the and makes you better at your job and it’s so crucial. Especially that wrinkle that you have that’s different than if someone else were to become CFO just because you both have accounting degrees, or same certifications, or whatever. You have that different wrinkle that they don’t, especially the mindfulness side of it. Like Good Lord. To have a calm, collected, monk-like CFO, like that’s scary. That’s like ninja stuff. It’s like “Whoa!”

Clint: And a potential during COVID and during— you know, when you start to think about a downturn in the market and a potential recession, which in our industry we both think about and are looking at, is you’re able to just sort of detach from the situation and say “Okay, let’s remove the emotion. Let’s talk about the facts. What’s happening and what do we need to do right now? How do we need to plan? How do we need to prepare? It’s more fun.”

John: Yeah. Absolutely. And so, as the CFO, are there ways that you learn about people’s “ands” and ask them about them?

Clint: Yeah. Absolutely. You know, during COVID, it was constrained. There’s a bit of it. And I’ve always been a pretty curious person. So I always ask people a lot of questions. But even over the last month, what I’ve been doing is I’ve been setting up coffee meetings with colleagues who I don’t know yet because part of what happened, we have two floors in the office, my finance team’s on one floor and everybody else is on the other floor. And during the last 2-1/2 years, a lot of people were hired on that floor. We’re about 90 people at head office, so I knew everybody on a first name basis.

All of a sudden, you come back into the office and there’s 20-30 people I’ve never met. And you have a conversation with them and say “Oh, when did you start?” And they’re like “2 years ago.” And you’re like “Oh, my gosh.” So I’ve been taking them all out for coffee. And you know, I start the coffee with “Hey, I want to get to know you from cradle to today. Tell me your life story.” And then I just start to dig into it, right? Siblings, parents, where they grew up, where they are now, what they love, what they loved growing up, and just really dig into who are they.

Will I remember 100% of it? Probably not. Will I remember two or three good tidbits, ideally part of it being their “and”? Absolutely. And now, it’s almost impossible to ever forget their name. And that one or two tidbits that you picked up in your conversation, I probably should come back and write it in a notebook or in an Outlook notes. But you know, I just try to commit it to my brain, which is getting slower as we age junk.

John: Oh, man, tell me about it. But that’s like what’s your “and” on steroids? That’s like next level kind of like cradle to today. It’s like “Woo!”

Clint: Yeah. They’re always like “Really?” And I’m like “Yeah. “Well, I just wanna get to know you as a person.”

John: I was born this age and that speeds up that story. I’m a Mork from Ork and there I am. But that is cool, man. It’s basically you’re just saying I care about you and I have a genuine interest in you. And I’m sure you see them and you’re like “Hey, how’s the ‘and’, whatever that is, going? Or how’s this going?” Or you’re going to a concert. “How was it?” You know, whatever that is. And then if you find someone else that also loves Tom Brady as much as you, then you’re super best friends.

Clint: And we have a blast. Absolutely.

John: Right? Then we have a blast. Exactly. But that’s such a simple way, especially for someone that’s a CFO, ’cause it’s hard for us to remember when we were 22 and coming out of school. CFO was very intimidating person. And whether you wanna be or not, that title comes with a stigma that people put on you. And so, it’s cool that you’re breaking through that by reaching out and just being human.

Clint: That’s a good point because a lot of the colleagues on my team have been with me now 7, 8, 9, 10 years. And so, the relationship we have is great, and there’s definitely no intimidation factor for them. Like they’re willing to say anything to me with that type of working relationship. They’re often quite mean to me actually, but then they’ll tell me— They’ll be like, “Oh, this new colleague on our team is totally intimidated by you.” And I’m like “What are you talking about? Like how is that even possible?”

John: And it is because they’re spreading bad stories about you. That’s why.

Clint: Yeah, exactly. You’re right. I’m always just blown away by it. I’m like “Really? Okay, well, maybe I should take them out for coffee.” And they’re like “You might scare them if you do that.” And I’m like “Oh, this is so weird. Like how do I overcome this?”

John: Right?

Clint: Yeah. So I think it eventually goes away the longer we’re together, but it just takes time. And you go for coffee, ask those questions, get to know them and their family. Eventually, that goes away.

John: And yeah. And bring down your curtain, if you will, and your suit of armor and whatever. So then it’s like “Oh, no, it’s just Clint. He’s right there. He’s a regular dude. He likes to work out, and sit in a sauna, and do podcasts, and write, and Tom Brady.” So there you go. Like, I mean, just go ask him about any one of those things and you’ll be there for about an hour.

Clint: We have a Thursday meditation club. So some of them come and join me and get to know me through there, which is it’s helping me do my practicums for the course I’m doing. So instead of doing something outside of work, I just signed up to do my practicum here. And you know, at the last session, I think we had 12 colleagues in there.

John: Oh, that’s fantastic.

Clint: Yeah, we started with 6 and then more and more people started coming. And now, it’s at numbers where I’m getting a little bit intimidated.

John: Right?

Clint: It’s like “Ooh, I don’t know about if I want to give a talk to 12 people. I thought there was only gonna be 6 of you.”

John: Right? Totally different.

Clint: But it’s fun. Yeah.

John: Totally different. But that is cool, man. That is cool. And how much do you feel like it’s on the organization or leadership to create that space for people to have an “and” or share it? And how much is it on the individual to just maybe start a little circle amongst their peers?

Clint: I’m gonna say it’s 80/20 on the leadership. You know, it reminds me of when you think about diversity and inclusion, and you start to explore that, and you realize it’s not the people that are marginalized or on the outside that have the ability to change it. It’s the people that are in that position of power that are in the position of privilege. It’s on them to change it because they have the power. And so, if I don’t tell my team that they can have an “and”, and they can share it at work, and they can do X, Y, or Z, then they don’t know they have the power to do it. So I think I put a lot of burden on the leaders to lead in a way that it helps their colleagues understand what they’re capable of and what they can do. You know, I would normally use the word “empower”, but I read something recently that said, well, you can’t actually empower someone because they have the power to do. But I think you get where I’mg going.

John: Encourage it I guess.

Clint: Encourage. Encourage.

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Clint: And show them what they can do and then give them the leeway to do it.

And I’ve always been a big fan even of when you look at the survey that the Gallup poll that you do for colleagues and you do that survey, and I equate it almost to being a parent with your children in school. And a lot of people, when they do the surveys for how schools are performing, they say “Oh, well, those teachers teach to the test, and it’s not a good barometer of whether your kid’s learning or not.” Sure. But when it comes to the Gallup survey, I say to my team like you should print out those 12 questions, and you should be leading in a way where the answer on those 12 questions will be the right answer.

Because if the point of that survey is these are the 12 questions we’ve asked that if people say they’re highly agree that they are happy at work and they’re engaged, well, if that’s what we want and those are the questions, we want their answer to be highly agree. So let’s just lead in a way where they’ll say yes. So sit down with them and say “Hey, do you have the tools to do your job? Do you feel like you’re empowered to perform your best at work? You know, have I praised you in the last week?” Well, maybe don’t ask that one. Just do it.

John: Yeah. I love that. Yeah, just reverse engineer it and then, you know, the 360 feedback is super, super critical. I mean, I find so many times that feedback only goes top down and it rarely goes sideways or especially not back up. And if anyone needs the most feedback, it’s the people at the top because they’re only getting “yes man” answers or “yes people” answers if you will. And they also don’t think that they have faults. And there’s always room for growth. And so, yeah, that’s such a great takeaway, man. I love that. It’s literally like Gallup gave you the answers in a question form.

Clint: Yeah! It just seemed obvious and intuitive. So many people are like “Well, why would you say that?” And I’m like “Well, we just reverse engineered the answer.”

John: Right? Right?

Clint: We want highly engaged. These questions determine if they are. We want to make the answer yes. Just seems intuitive to me.

John: Right? There you go.

Clint: Yeah.

John: And see what happens and then good things. That’s awesome, man. No. And it’s such an easy takeaway too for everybody listening that’s in any sort of remote leadership-ish type position, which is all over the organization. It’s not just at the very top. So what a great takeaway, man. That’s awesome. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone that has an “and” that they feel like no one’s gonna care about or it has nothing to do with my job, so why should I ever share it?

Clint: I think for most people what I would say is— And this is something I heard on Tim Ferriss the first time, and I absolutely fell in love with it. He got it from one of his guests. I wanna say it was Seth Godin. And the idea was this, whenever Tim’s going to do a project, Seth taught him you have to want to do that project even if it absolutely fails. If you’re going to write a book or you’re going to launch a product, you wanna be happy simply with the launch or the start. And if you are— And I’ll give you a simple example. I wrote a fantasy novel with my sister and it’s going to be a series, and I might get emotional on this one.

John: Yeah.

Clint: We’re searching for an agent, then we’ll need to find a publisher. You understand the process.

John: Oh, yeah.

Clint: You’ve written a book. And maybe we’ll self-publish. But regardless, that manuscript, my dad read it. He’s probably only read 3 books in the last 40 years. One of them being the Bible, one of them being in the 1970s. So he hadn’t read a book probably in 30-40 years. And he read our book. So regardless of whether any person ever reads it or it’s published, like he looked at me and my sister and said like “I’m proud of you too and I really enjoyed it. I didn’t quite follow it like your mom did.”

And my mom was phoning me as she read it. And she was trying to guess, you know, where things were going. And she is like “Like what about this and what about that? And oh, I love this character. And ooh, I don’t like this one.” And I’m like “Well, that one’s modeled off my brother and that one’s me.” I’d never had been closer to her, John. And I think my sister felt the same way.
And if we never published a single novel or sell a single one, the joy that we got from doing it together and having mom and dad read it, like, so that’s your “and.” And that’s what you talked about earlier, is it’s so important to you intrinsically. Who cares if other people like it? Just do it. If you love it, and like you said, when you were on my show, rarely is someone’s “and” something so obscure or offside that we say “Well whoa, not that ‘and.’ No, no, no. Don’t do that.”

John: If it’s distracting and unprofessional, then, yeah, absolutely.

Clint: Yeah. Yeah.

John: I’m selling cocaine out of a van down by the river.

Clint: Yeah. Exactly. No. Don’t do that on the side. Don’t do that.

John: Let’s do something else. But it’s so true. I mean, so many people put that weight on themselves. Like in this case, I’m an author and it’s like “Well, I can’t call myself an author because da, da, da, da, whatever million reasons.” And it’s like “Well, I enjoy writing. I enjoy podcasting.” Well, now it doesn’t matter. The end goal doesn’t matter. And also, no one judges you for what you enjoy. You know, I enjoy writing. Well, how many books have you sold? No one’s asking you that question. It’s like “Oh, great. What do you write?” You know?

And then it leads to curious questions as opposed to giving yourself the label and then people may be judge or you judge yourself, but just start with I enjoy and then go with that, but that’s such a beautiful story, man. That’s awesome. It’s so great. Like you and your sister came together and then both found out that your mom loves your brother more. So, I mean, like that’s such a great, great—

Clint: We already knew it. And I had this conversation with a colleague this morning when I asked that question ’cause she was giving her family— And I mentioned— I said, “When all 3—” ’cause she has 3 people in her family. I said, “Whenever all three 3 agree on who the favorite is, they’re clearly the favorite.”

John: Right? Exactly, exactly. That’s awesome, man. Well, it was such great words of encouragement and a really great way to wrap it up. I feel like it’s only fair though, since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning of the episode, that I should turn the tables and will let you take the reins. And you’re professional. You know what you’re doing. So I’m all yours, man. I’m in the hot seat now.

Clint: The first one I want to know is what is the strangest “and” anyone has ever told you? Doesn’t have to be on the podcast. Just something someone told you and you thought I’m going to maybe stay a little bit more away from this person than I ever—

John: No! It makes me wanna actually have them on the show. I’m like “This is great because you’re not the only one.” There was a guy on who was a podcaster and a writer. Oh, wait, that’s you. Never mind. No. No, I mean there’s some— I wouldn’t say strange. There’s just some that I’ve never heard of like kite boarding. I never heard of that. I never even knew what that was. And it’s like “What is that?” That sounds awesome. You know? Or when I’m speaking at a conference last year and a top partner at their firm like to hula dance for fun just around her house.

Clint: I didn’t even know people still did that.

John: Yeah. Just for fun around her house. And it’s like “How cool is that?” You know? And it makes me wanna lean in more because, you know, when you hear golf or running,it’s like “All right. Well…”

Clint: Yeah. Everybody has that.

John: I mean, there’s a lot of people that are doing that stuff. Now, sure, certain people take it to an extreme level. But either way, it’s still interesting to me. But when you hear that hula dancing, or kiteboarding, or stuff I’ve never even heard of like pickleball at first, you know, things like that, then it’s like “Wait. What?” And it’s sort of that norepinephrine in your brain of you’re interested in interesting things. And all of a sudden, you lean in and you have follow-up questions. Wait, what is that? How’d you get started? Wait, what? You know? It’s all the questions that people would ask me from doing comedy. Like what were you thinking the first time you went on stage? Like what? Like, you know, all those things. So yeah, it’s super cool.

Clint: And then let’s say you had unlimited time and resources. What is an “and” that you think you could have that you haven’t actually explored yet? Top one or two things on your “and” bucket list.

John: An “and” bucket list. Okay. I think surfing would be really fun. Plus, it involves being warm and on a beach, so there’s that as well. I mean, I have surfed before, but to be like regularly good at it I think would be pretty fun. I think relearning the piano from when I was a kid. And so, I would like to be better at playing the piano. And what’s great now that wasn’t when I was a kid is there’s the internet, and you can just get any song.

I mean, of course, you buy the sheet music, but it’s songs you hear on the radio or songs from artists that you care about instead of whatever random music that you had to play in 6th grade and when I was like “All right, I’m not doing this anymore type of thing.” Those are probably two that I’m like, you know, I’m okay at, but I would like to be better at. I enjoy surfing. I enjoy playing the piano. I would like to be a little better so then I can maybe call myself that, you know, like type of thing. But they’re also just really fun to do, and they’re creative and physical, and they just challenge my brain in different ways. So that’s what I enjoy.

Clint: So you can still say I enjoy playing the piano.

John: Exactly. Exactly.

Clint: Perfect.

John: And that works. Awesome, man. Well, thank you so much, Clint, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This was super, super fun.

Clint: Yeah, thanks for having me. It was a blast.

John: Now, everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Clint outside of work, or maybe connect with him on social media, or get a link to The Pursuit of Learning podcast, you can go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the What’s Your “And”? book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 539 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and” as in like who else are you, those things above and beyond your technical skills.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, and a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon, and more importantly changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Jon Ekstrom. He’s a principal at Deft Communications in Denver and the host of the Jon of All Trades podcast. And now, he’s with me here today. Jon, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Jon: What up, Jon? I think it was the last time we were together. We were over some Italian food.

John: Yes.

Jon: With the delightful Rick Goomay.

John: Exactly. For sure. And we just need Rick to change his name to Jonn, like Jonn with two Ns so we have all the iterations of our name of John. But I have 17 rapid fire questions, things I never asked you over the Italian food and we probably should have.

Jon: All right, let’s do it.

John: Here we go. How about a favorite movie of all time?

Jon: Gotta go with the Wizard of Oz.

John: Really? Okay. I like it. Solid answer. That’s great.

Jon: Absolutely. I mean, you can’t go wrong with that movie. It’s really got it all. And so, I’ve waffled a bit over the years. I’m big Tarantino freak, but, no, I gotta come back to the Wizard of Oz. That’s it.

John: Yeah. Whether you got Pink Floyd playing or not, it’s still good. It’s still good.

Jon: 100%.

John: When it comes to puzzles, Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Jon: None of the above really.

John: Okay.

Jon: But every morning, I do not only Wordle, Lewdle.

John: Ooh.

Jon: Yeah. Are you familiar with Lewdle?

John: I’m not. Lewdle, what is Lewdle?

Jon: It’s basically Wordle, but with nothing but profane terms.

John: Oh. That’s fantastic.

Jon: It’s phenomenal. And then I do Framed.

John: Oh, okay.

Jon: So are you familiar framed?

John: Yeah, absolutely. Those all count. Definitely, those all count. How about a favorite color?

Jon: Gotta go with purple.

John: Oh, okay. Okay. How about a least favorite color?

Jon: In terms of like colors that I wear, I cannot wear yellow or orange.

John: Okay. It’s funny ’cause that question always comes down to colors that don’t look good on me while I’m wearing them. It’s not just a color in general. But maybe I should just change the question to color you hate wearing the most.

Jon: No, I got nothing against orange or yellow. They all got their place.

John: I don’t know. No, I’m just kidding. I’m teasing. Like there’s such a spectrum on those. There’s the neon, then there’s the pastel, and then there’s everything in between.

Jon: I don’t know, man. They all got their place. I kind of like them all.

John: No. No. For sure. Just in case they’re listening. You don’t wanna offend them.

Jon: Yeah.

John: Are you more talk or text?

Jon: Unfortunately, I’m more text, but I talk for a living.

John: Right?

Jon: Like part of my frustration is like what could be solved in like a 2-minute phone call frequently takes like 9 texts back and forth and you go “Why are we doing this?”

John: Yes. If it’s the third text, I’m calling you back because it’s like we’re not doing this.

Jon: By the way, that’s gotta freak out Gen Z. Like have you ever tried to call someone from Gen Z where you’re like “Why are you calling me on the phone”? And you go “This really isn’t that hard.”

John: Right. It’s called a phone for a reason.

Jon: I started my career in cold calling, and you get used to it. And it’s not a big deal once you do it a few times.

John: That’s very funny. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Jon: Probably Frances McDormand.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Jon: Can you think of a bad Frances McDormand performance? You can’t.

John: No, that’s true. All right. How about a least favorite vegetable?

Jon: I gotta go with cauliflower.

John: Yeah, that’s solid. That’s a good answer right there.

Jon: And I’ve worked some cauliflower rice into my routine.

John: You gotta flavor it up and you gotta work at it.

Jon: You gotta really disguise it. I’m not thrilled about it.

John: Right. It’s a filler.

Jon: It’s a way to sneak some vegetables into your day.

John: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. How about when it comes to books? Audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Jon: Real book. Oh, yeah. No, I can’t do audiobooks because I spend my entire day with large chunks of audio.

John: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Jon: And like that’s the last thing I want. I don’t need more voices talking to me in my earphones.

John: Right. Right. Just driving it crazy. How about a favorite number?

Jon: I gotta go with either 10 or 17.

John: Yeah. Is there a reason?

Jon: Well, yeah, ’cause 10, the Roman numeral is X and my last name is Ekstrom.

John: Yeah, there you go.

Jon: And so, in college, my radio DJ handle was Johnny X.

John: Yeah.

Jon: And so, like X, that’s 10, that’s me, that’s my last name. 17 was the number of Mark Grace who used to play first base for the Chicago Cubs. And he was my favorite player. He actually signed a photo of me when my dad met him in the airport.

John: Oh, that’s incredible. Yeah, he was great. I’m a huge Cardinals fan, but hat tip to— I mean, that was the Ryne Sandberg and Mark Grace.

Jon: Andre Dawson.

John: Andre Dawson. And, oh man, they were fun. Maddux was even there for a little bit.

Jon: Maddux won his first Cy Young with the Cubs and then they promptly traded him in typical Cubs fashion.

John: Right? Which is why I’m a Cards fan. That’s how it goes. That’s how it goes. How about do you have a favorite sports team?

Jon: I mean, my dad grew up in Chicago, so my heart is with the Cubs. Sometimes it’s the Avalanche. Sometimes, if I’m being honest with you, it’s like the Heart Foundation from the WWF.

John: Oh, now we’re talking. Okay. There we go. That’s a blast from the past. Wow. Yeah.

Jon: Either the Heart Foundation or the Rockers, or especially when the Heart Foundation would fight the Rockers.

John: Right? Then that’s heaven. That’s heaven right there. Very good. Very good. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Jon: Right now, it’s a toss-up. If I’m drinking it straight, it’s bourbon. If I’m mixing it, it is gin and blackberry hibiscus soda from Simple Truth.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Jon: Yeah. It’s one of those seltzers that you can get like from King Soopers. It’s like their, I don’t know, top shelf brand.

John: From like the Kroger.

Jon: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

John: Yeah.

Jon: And so, it’s that mixed with gin. It’s phenomenal. It’s been my summer drink.

John: Very cool. How about a favorite season? Summer, winter, spring, fall?

Jon: Summer in a landslide.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Jon: Yeah.

John: All right.

Jon: So I’m always a little sad when summer ends because my birthday’s at the end of summer. I know colder weather’s coming. I love wearing less clothes. I hate wearing socks.

John: Yeah. It’s all downhill from here.

Jon: Kind of. I always try and make the most out fo summer. So yeah, summer.

John: Okay. Okay. How about ice cream? In a cup or in a cone?

Jon: Cone, but I don’t drink a ton of ice cream because it disagrees with my sort of—

John: Ah, yeah. Okay.

Jon: …constitution.

John: All right. Man, the non-dairy is really coming on strong. They have some good ones, some really good ones for sure. How about more oceans or mountains?

Jon: I gotta go with mountains just because I’m a Colorado native.

John: Yeah, there you go. Three more. Your computer, a PC or Mac?

Jon: It’s a PC.

John: Oh, wow. Okay. I thought I was gonna be going Mac on that one, but you surprised me. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Jon: Ultimately, not really either. But if I had to pick, I would say Star Trek just because I like that universe a little bit more. I think it speaks to me a little bit more than the Star Wars universe. And like Dave Matthews band fans, the fans of Star Wars I find to be a barrier to entry.

John: Like Dave Matthews band fans. That was awesome. Well played, man. Well played ’cause I’ll +1 on that one. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Jon: Oh, dear. The favorite thing I own. You know what? I’m gonna go with something recent that we just bought because it’s hitting in my backyard and it’s helping me feel less dread about the coming colder weather. We just got a hot tub.

John: Oh, nice. Okay. There we go.

Jon: Yeah.

John: Nice. Fancy. I do have a friend that got one, and he said it didn’t play out the way he had intended when he was asking his dude friends to come hang out in the hot tub. He’s like “So let me know how that goes for you.” Or he is like “Yeah, not too many people taking me up on the offer.”

Jon: No, that feels like an invitation to something else perhaps.

John: Yeah. Exactly. And you’re like “I didn’t get it for them. I got it for me.” So there we go. Maybe there’s a themed party to happen there, which leads right into what we’re gonna chat on. So like how did you get started with that?

Jon: So it’s funny because when I started my career, I thought I wanted to be an event planner. And I was working for this PR firm and I planned a few events. And I realized “Wow, I despise this.” Like I hate doing this because every event you go to, if it’s successful, has someone behind the scenes having a heart attack at all times.

John: Oh, okay. Yeah. Fair. For sure.

Jon: And there’s so much prep and you finally get to the day of— It’s nice because when you do an event, there is a definitive finish line, which there isn’t always in every project.

John: Yeah.

Jon: But I realized I could do it well. And the first one I ever threw, I wanted to throw a beer pong tournament in college, but I wanted it to be like legit. So I got these poster boards, I made brackets, I measured them out, I made everyone have like team names and stuff. And I realized there was something there. And the more it went and the older I get— So particularly, John, this has really taken off in the last I would say 5 or so years. People are looking for reasons to cut loose because in our jobs, we have so much where we have to enact or affect this persona that maybe we don’t identify with as much. And it’s hard to cut loose.

John: Yeah.

Jon: And I realized if you provide people just a little bit of framework and a little bit of structure, they are gonna have the best time. And it’s better than going to just some unstructured party because, I mean, you’ve been to a zillion parties where everyone just kind of like clicks off and they go “I know these people.” So they’re in one part of the party. You got another group of friends in another part of the party. If you give a little bit of structure to it, people mingle a little bit more and people tend to have a better time.

John: Yeah. And sadly, at those parties where there’s no structure, they’re all talking about work and “Wait, what? Like what the hell are we doing? Like why are we doing this?”

Jon: Do you remember there was a site called Someecards.

John: Oh, yeah!

Jon: Yeah.

John: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Jon: So one of my favorite ones I ever read was it’s just a photo of someone and they’re like “Well I’m headed home now to check work email.”

John: Right?

Jon: Like for much of the time, that’s what we’re doing anyway.

John: Yeah. No, exactly.

Jon: But if you can be someone else even slightly, even tweaked just for a little while, you step outside yourself, you tend to have a better time. You become more gregarious. Like your walls come down a little bit. And by virtue of doing that, everyone’s like “Man, we have so much fun at your house, at your parties.” And I go “Well, yeah, it’s because I’m giving you something a little bit different than just showing up.” And it’s like “Well I brought beer and here’s a few snacks.” And you go “Yeah, okay. This is actually pretty grim.”

John: Right. I showered for this. Like “What?”

Jon: To talk to these same people I don’t even like at work.

John: That’s a good point. So what kind of themes have you had in the past? I mean, the beer pong tournament of course.

Jon: So that’s become a whole thing. And John, I’ll tell you that is the perfect party architecture because we invite people from all of our different friend groups, so no one knows each other that well. And we say you need to come with a costume, and a team name, and entrance music. And what I’m gonna do is I’m gonna write like a WWE or UFC style intro for you, announce you, and you come out with this awesome entrance. And it works because like you’ve got people doing something that’s lightly competitive. Like we don’t allow any like red asses there. It’s like have fun, compete hard. But like at the end of the day, like don’t take it too seriously.

John: Yeah.

Jon: But there’s a politeness that comes with that because you’re playing with people you don’t know that well. And here’s the other thing, you have downtime between matches. And if you don’t feel like making small talk, you just sit down and watch the games or you heckle the competitors or whatever.

John: Yeah.

Jon: And so, like it provides a little bit of call it scaffolding to initiate conversations in new ways with people you wouldn’t do that with otherwise.

John: Yeah.

Jon: And then injecting a little bit of pageantry here, like our lives are devoid of pageantry and people love that whether they know it or not. To have the opportunity to make an entrance,—

John: Yeah! Totally.

Jon: …that’s cool. Very few people do that.

John: Ding, ding, ding! I like it. It’s like “What?! This is incredible.”

Jon: And I’ll go the following contest is a first round match in the Beirut tournament and it’s scheduled for one fall. And I have everyone shot one fall back at me like right.

John: Oh, okay. Okay.

Jon: And it’s great, man. Like we have the most fun with that every time we do it.

John: That’s fantastic, man. That’s really, really cool. And I love how you said like just providing a little bit of scaffolding. Like imagine if that was in corporate, you know, where it’s like if there was just a little bit of scaffolding and let people just run with it, like how awesome of a place would that be to work? Yeah.

Jon: 100%. Well, it’s like why in terms of parties. There’s frequently casino nights and why those are popular? It’s because you’re providing a little bit of party architecture for people. Like you meet someone from another department, and you’re sitting there at the black check table, and table gets hot. All of a sudden, you’re connected in a new way where you’re having a lot of fun with someone. You go “Man, remember casino night when we got on that huge roll or like the craps table was hot or I had all these bets on the table and then you rolled snake eyes or whatever?” Right? That provides fodder that is like great currency for establishing new bonds and new friendships.

John: Yeah. No, I love that. That’s so good. And just imagine if like you have a weekly meeting or a monthly meeting. Well, what’s your intro song? Like we’re all coming into the conference room. Like you just come into your walkup music if you will at a baseball game, you know. Like how great would that be? Like if I ran a department, I would totally do that every time. Like why not? It was unprofessional. It’s gonna take an extra 2 minutes out of our day. Really? Okay. Yeah, exactly. If that 2 minutes is knocking you off your game, then maybe you shouldn’t have that job.

Jon: Yeah. Now, introducing from the 13th floor, the head of accounting, you know. And like you walk in and you go “Yes, I’m ready to present.”

John: Why not? Eye of the tiger dun, dun, dun, dun. You know, it’s like that’d be incredible. Like that would be a great place to work, man. And you’d mix your songs up every time or whatever. And like you were saying, it provides that pageantry. It provides that where like— I mean, we’re all in a show anyway. I mean, life is a show, so like why not? You know? What was that? I think it’s a Jim Carey quote or movie where he was like, you know, the best part of a movie is like the action music or something along those lines. And man, there should be that, you know, like why not type of thing.

Just that pageantry every day.

Jon: 100%. So another one of the parties we do is called Kenny Lagers.

John: Which is, well, I don’t even need to know. I’m there.

Jon: You got it. What’s funny is I actually stole that concept. It was from the Great American Beer Fest. I saw a poster for it. It was like after Great American Beer Fest was dying down. And you go to GABF and you’re drinking all these heavy, heavy beers, you know, double IPAs, and bare laid stouts, and things like that. So they said, “Here’s what we’re gonna do. The day after GABF or the closing night, it’s all gonna be lagers, and pilsners, and light beers. And we’re gonna listen to yacht rock.

John: Okay. Okay.

Jon: And I go “What a great way to come down from this giant festival for all these beer nerds.” And I go “All right. So here’s what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna have everyone dress up in their best like uppity yacht wear. Just boujee as hell. We’re gonna put on the yacht rock. and we’re gonna drink lagers, pilsners, white wines, and rosé is okay too.”

John: Right?

Jon: And everyone gets to cosplay as like, you know, you’re like elitist out on the Hamptons or the Mediterranean or something.

John: Like a cardigan wrapped around your neck and like all that.

Jon: Absolutely. I know you do photos, so I’ll show you one of me and my wife.

John: Nice.

Jon: I had a couple show up in like— He had his full captain’s hat on, and he was wearing a blue blazer with like the brass buttons, and everyone’s like kind of trying to outdo each other, but in a really playful way where it’s not like “Man, how could that guy be dressed better than me?” It’s like “Man, you came over the top of me.”

John: Yeah. No. I mean, kudos, man, because that’s impressive.

Jon: One year, I bought myself a RompHim.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Jon: Yeah. Which that’s an unusual piece of—

John: Right. That’s something you hope to return to Amazon.

Jon: No. I got it. I’ve gotten some more mileage out it.

John: There you go. All right. That’s awesome though. But is this something that like you would talk about with coworkers, or clients, or things like that that would come up?

Jon: So, John, my big thing is— so a lot of what I do is creative and people hire you because they perceive you to have good and interesting ideas and be a little bit off kilter. And generating the raw material is always the hardest part. And so, if even in your spare time you’re demonstrating like “Hey, this is what I do in my spare time”, they go, dude, you are unusual. Like there’s something to be said for that. Not to toot my own horn here too much, but there’s like—

John: No, it’s true.

Jon: There’s like a charisma aspect to that. It’s like an enhancement to what they hire you for. And one of my guiding ethos is always keep ’em guessing. Like literally always keep ’em guessing. So I don’t advertise this a lot, which is like when we met and we talked about this show, I thought this would be an interesting thing to talk about because this is not something I broadcast a ton. But if people ask, you know, “What are you doing”, I’m like “Oh, we’re having our Kenny Lagers party this weekend.” And they go “What is that?” And I explain it to ’em, they go “Wow, what a cool concept.” And so, when you can demonstrate that sort of when people aren’t expecting it, when you’re not selling them anything, it tends to land a little bit firmer because like they’ll remember it and go “Oh, yeah, that that’s that weird guy who does like the music video parties and the beer punk tournaments.” And you go “Yeah, that’s me. That’s how I think. That’s what I do.”

John: Yeah. I mean, it’s just a matter of fact. It’s the same as “Oh, well, I’m going to the baseball game, or I’m going to the mountains, or I’m going to whatever.” It’s like “Oh, okay, this is what I do.” But you’re not like afraid of sharing. It’s not like “Ooh, if I tell you I’m doing this, you’re gonna run away, or fire me as a client, or whatever”, you know, type of thing. ‘Cause you don’t have to be shouting it from the rooftops every single day ’cause then it’s obnoxious and no one wants to be around that person.

Jon: I mean, John, one of the things is I kinda like hiding in plain sight too. One of the things is with people I work with, I think the people I work with think I’m more conservative than I am. And the people in my real life think I’m more liberal than I actually am.

John: That’s funny.

Jon: Yeah. So it’s all right there. Like if you go to my podcast website, you know, I’m doing topics and blog posts about things that interest me. It’s just that most people aren’t even bothering to do the work to check it. It’s like “No, this is me. It’s always been there.” And so, that gives you a fidelity as well. Like you go “I’m not trying to snow you on anything. This is who I am. And if you look for just a little bit, you’ll find it pretty quickly.”

John: Or just ask. I mean, you know, it’s that easy. I mean, just ask like, yeah, it’s just right there. And I think that’s fantastic, man, ’cause so many times we get in our own heads of, you know, “Oh, well, am I supposed to or who did I tell? Who didn’t I tell?” It’s like this isn’t illegal. It’s not like you’re running a drug ring. It’s just like we’re having themed parties.

Jon: You’re not having a backdoor card game.

John: Right? Yeah. I mean, it’s just like we’re just having themed parties. Like it’s on, you know. And it’s just it’s something people do. That’s awesome, man. And how much do you feel like if it were like, you know, larger organizations, how much is it on the organization to care about people having outside of work interest versus how much is it on the individual to just maybe create a little small circle amongst their peers?

Jon: You know, that’s a question each organization needs to ask itself.

What kind of organization do we want to be? And I can tell you this, when I was in corporate, I had my corporate persona and that persona felt not true to who I am. And I didn’t particularly enjoy it, which is why when I got out I go “Okay, I’m gonna be who I wanna be.” And so, like I love punk rock. I love throwing these weird parties. I mean, I’ve got my hair like in this quasi mohawk right now.

Jon: Right.

John: And I’m having more success than I ever have. So, my advice, not that you asked for advice, but—

John: Well, no, absolutely.

Jon: To anyone who is in a corporate situation, you’re feeling unfulfilled or you’re feeling like you’re not being true to yourself, ask yourself where could you go to where you might feel more fulfilled or are you okay with this sort of personality that you’re affecting? Do you like that? Do you enjoy leaning into that? Because sometimes people like to just go to work, be who they are at work and leave that persona there, and then go home and be who they wanna be. If you feel unfulfilled by that sort of bifurcation or that delta between those two personas, then ask yourself “Where could I go to be more myself or what can I do to fill in that gap a little bit more?”

John: And a third question even is has anyone actually told me this or am I making this up in my head, you know? Because so many times we’re in a like asking permission kind of world where it’s like “Well, no one said you can’t, you know. Like no one said like why are you doing that? You know, like why are you making your life miserable because no one said anything? Like you have no basis for this. None.” And well, one friend went “No, that didn’t even happen.” You know, like it wasn’t even that. But such great advice there of, you know, that work persona and then who you truly are. And if that delta is too big, then you’re a miserable, miserable person, and you’re not very good at your job, and you’re not very good at your life outside of work.

Jon: That’s very true. Like the unhappiness will tend to seep. I mean, it’s like water. It will find the available space, and it will soon overtake you if you’re not careful about it.

John: Definitely. Very much so, man. And kudos for you for recognizing that and taking steps to be like, you know, “Hey, I’m gonna be me.” And then what’s fantastic about it is it’s the best ever, you know. And it’s still being professional. It’s still getting your work done, but it’s doing it in the Jon Ekstrom way, you know. And it’s just the same, but you’re happier, and better, and more effective.

Jon: Yeah. And I think people will— When they perceive authenticity, they will find you because it’s like, okay, that is someone who is living their best life, they’re being their most authentic self, and there’s magnetism to be had there. Whereas if you’re effecting a persona, it’s gonna catch up with you eventually ’cause it’s like, yeah, okay, you can play this role. But when the mask kind of comes off, you go “Oh, there’s something missing there.” And we’re naturally sort of repelled and that’s too strong a word, but it can be off putting. And you go “Yeah, I don’t feel as strong affinity for this person that I’m working with.”

John: Yeah. And if someone— To me anyway. If someone’s too perfect, I’m like “All right, something’s up here. ’cause that’s impossible.” It’s impossible to be human and perfect. So, I mean, there was one person that nailed it and that was Jesus. So like, you know, and I guess there was a pun there on accident. But either way, it’s all good. You can’t be human and perfect. So, if you’re trying to portray this perfectionism, I’m not buying it and people don’t. Like you’re sniffing out.

Jon: You’re gonna get letters on that one too, by the way.

John: It’s factually true. It’s factually true. And if anyone’s still writing letters, then God bless ’em.

Jon: You’ll frame it.

John: There we go. So this has been awesome, John, and so many good nuggets in here from you and for people to take away. I feel like it’s only fair though that I turn the tables. And since you’re a pro, you will know what to do.

Jon: Oh, yeah.

John: So thanks for having me on the show and I’m all yours, whatever questions you got.

Jon: All right. So, since we were talking about theme parties, let’s say you’re invited to my beer pong tournament. What is the gimmick you and your partner are dressing up as? Because we’ve had a lot of pop culture references. You’ll see ’em in the photos. Do you have something in mind?

John: A team name? Well, I feel like—

Jon: You have the name dialed in, but like what’s in reference to?

John: Yeah. I feel like it would be some sort of like— I mean I would just play up the CPA background, like my CPA background, Little Debits and Credits. Then the Debits person has to stand on the left and the Credits person has to stand on the right just to make sure that we’re balanced out there and like it’s— But yeah, some sort of— I don’t know. Something like that and some pun on— I don’t know—something along those lines.

Jon: So you’re not Ben Affleck in The Accountant, right, where you’re secretly in—

John: Yeah. We’re not that cool. We’re just like accountants that are at a beer pong tournament.

Jon: You’re going out in the first round.

John: Well, that’s something I could keep score, which is really where I should be anyway, so it’s all good.

Jon: You get to be the ledger man.

John: I can audit the score keeping to make sure that it’s done appropriately.

Jon: Oh, man, that sounds like a real hoot for everyone.

Okay. So we mentioned this. We talked about walkup music in pro wrestling, in baseball, in UFC. What is your walk up music?

John: Ah, yeah. So, when I did comedy, it was All the Small Things by Blink 182, which is just such a great intro. First 20-30 seconds are just so great.

Jon: Well, and I’ll tell you, The Avalanche just won the cup and that song played a huge role in their mythology this year.

John: Absolutely. Yeah. But that was my walk up every time doing comedy. Yeah, absolutely.

Jon: Okay. And then we’re gonna go one a little bit off kilter here. Do you have a favorite sandwich of all time? Because I just had mine this weekend.

John: Wow, okay. You know, get your pens ready for some more letters. There was a restaurant in my grandparent’s hometown in Decatur, Illinois. It was called Fatty Melt.

Jon: Yeah.

John: And it was grilled cheese sandwich bun. Two grilled cheese sandwiches, and a burger, and cheese, and whatever, all that in the middle.

Jon: Wow.

John: Yeah. It was called fatty melt. And I ordered it just because of the name and wow. I don’t think I ate dinner that night.

Jon: Or for the next week and a half.

John: Yeah.

Jon: But, okay, so it’s like a patty melt. But instead of buns, it’s grilled cheese sandwiches.

John: Exactly. Two grilled cheese sandwiches. Yeah, one on top, one at the bottom.

Jon: Yeah. Yeah. I got it.

John: Yeah.

Jon: That is really, really something. Mine for the record, I gotta get it on here, it is a roast pork sandwich from Tommy DiNic’s from Philadelphia.

John: Oh, okay, okay. Oh, that sounds good.

Jon: It’s sharp provolone, roast pork, and broccoli rub on this beautiful, beautiful like Kaiser hoagie roll.

John: Okay. So it’s a little bit crunchy, almost like burnt in sort of texture to it.

Jon: No, no, no. No. So they roast the pork and then they do thinly sliced. It’s like deli sliced pork.

John: Ah, okay. Got it.

Jon: And it’s served in a little gravy. And so, the whole thing just melts in your mouth. It’s phenomenal.

John: That’s fantastic. Then we put some grilled cheeses on either side and then we call it— No, I’m just kidding.

Jon: Now, you’re a monster. No way.

John: Then you ruined it.

Jon: You ruined it, John.

John: Right. Awesome, man. Well I really appreciate you being a part of this, Jon. And thank you so much for, yeah, just taking time to be a part of What’sYour “And”?

Jon: Happy to be a part of it. Thank you for the opportunity. You’re doing great work, and I can’t wait till our paths across again.

John: And everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Jon at this themed parties, or maybe connect with her on social media, or check out the Jon of All Trades podcast, you can go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please don’t forget to hit the big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to read the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.