Joel is an Accountant & Cyclist
Joel Ungar shares some powerful experiences participating in the Wish a Mile cycling marathons for the Make a Wish Foundation. He also tells us how his passion for cycling makes it easy for him to establish connections!
• Getting into cycling
• Preparing for a cycling event
• Health benefits from cycling
• Experiences with the Make a Wish Foundation
• How his firm supports his passion
• How cycling offers him an avenue to establish connections
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Welcome to Episode 269 of What’s your “And”? This is John Garrett. Each Wednesday, I’m interviewing professionals who, just like me, are known for hobbies or passions or interests outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and.” Those things above and beyond your technical skills that you do at work, it’s the things that actually differentiate you when you’re in the office.
I’m so excited to let everyone know my book’s being published very, very soon. It’ll be available on Amazon and a few other websites. So check out whatsyourand.com for all the details or you could sign up for my exclusive list and you’ll know when it’s coming out. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe so you don’t miss any of the future episodes because I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week on the podcast. And this week is no different with my guest, Joel Ungar. He’s the Director of Accounting and Auditing at Silverman, Kaplan and Sakwa near Detroit. Now, he’s with me here today. Joel, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s your “And”?
Joel: Yeah. Well, I was trying to find a reason to not eat lunch just yet.
John: Right. Perfect, man. Yeah. Well, I’m not the right person because I will eat lunch and talk to you at the same time.
Joel: Yeah. I’m capable of that skill too.
John: Awesome. Yeah. Well, you know the drill, man. I appreciated you reaching out. You’ve listened to the podcast for a long time and, yeah, happy to have you on. It’s the rapid-fire questions. I hope you’re ready, man. Get to know Joel on a new level here. All right. How about a favorite color?
John: Blue? Okay. How about a least favorite color?
John: Green? Interesting. Okay.
Joel: Michigan State University. That’s their color.
John: Oh, okay. It was either that or red. I knew it was going to be one of those two.
John: How about oceans or mountains? Okay. Interesting. How about pens or pencils?
Joel: Pens. Blue ink, specifically.
John: Oh nice. Okay. Yeah. I see a theme here.
Joel: Oh yeah, I didn’t even make that connection.
John: That’s why I’m a professional, Joel.
Joel: Apparently so.
John: When it comes to puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?
Joel: Oh, crossword. And you have to do them in blue ink.
John: Right. See?
Joel: Seriously, yeah.
John: So then the letters stand out from the black and white grid.
John: Okay. How about early bird or night owl?
Joel: I’m an early bird, definitely.
John: Nice. Okay. Do you have a favorite comedian of all time?
Joel: Groucho Marx.
John: Ah, nice.
Joel: Curly Howard would be a close second, but Groucho is amazing.
John: He’s brilliant. How about more Star Wars or Star Trek?
Joel: Star Trek, definitely.
John: Okay. Would you say more suit and tie or jeans and a T-shirt?
Joel: I generally would’ve said jeans and a T-shirt. But pat myself on the back, I’ve lost a lot of weight. I’m the only one at the office that wear suits. It’s because I like wearing them and they fit.
John: Good for you, man. Congratulations. Very cool. On your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?
John: Yeah, me too. And your mouse, left click or right click?
Joel: Oh, the right mouse click is where you’re going to get the more interesting stuff. I try to right mouse click to do things if I can.
John: Yeah. How about more cats or dogs?
John: Me too. How about a favorite place you’ve been on vacation?
Joel: I love the Caribbean. I’ll tell you Mykonos, when I was there for a couple of days when I was 22, that was spectacular. I’d love to go back there.
John: Wow. That sounds awesome. Yeah, I’ve never been, so very cool. How about Balance Sheet or Income Statement?
Joel: I’ve heard you ask this one. As a CPA in public practice, Balance Sheet all the way. But I’ve been a controller CFO and I was Income Statement all the way. I mean I focus on adjusting the Balance Sheet but I didn’t look at it after that. We always were focusing on the Income Statement.
John: No, that is funny which side it is, depending on which one. All right. We’ve got three more. Prefer more hot or cold?
John: Hot. Yeah.
Joel: That’s why I live in Michigan, for the wonderful hot winters.
John: Right. Exactly. That’s what I was thinking. I was like — I said, “Maybe no one’s told him.” How about a favorite number?
John: Is there a reason?
Joel: Yeah. That’s Sheldon Cooper’s favorite number on Big Bang Theory. He’s got a big explanation for it. It used to be 17. I’m still fond of 17, but 73 is just cool. I’ve got to get the T-shirt, actually. I haven’t done that yet.
John: Yeah. That’s the first time on the podcast that I’ve heard 73. That’s for sure. So I like it. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?
Joel: It’s funny. There was a conversation recently at home about if the house was on fire. I said, “If the house is on fire, grab my bike.” I guess I’m going to say my bike, but I’d be more concerned about my wife and kids getting out of the house for —
John: Sure. Absolutely. That’s a given, of course, but yeah. What kind of bike is it?
Joel: It’s a Motobécane or Motobécane. I’m not sure of the proper pronunciation. All carbon fiber, it’s a road bike and it’s the kind of bike I ride all summer long.
John: Yeah, fancy, man. That dovetails right into your passion — cycling. Is that something that you’ve been doing since you were a kid or is it more of a recent discovery?
Joel: I definitely rode growing up. I remember I had a really cool bike that I’ve got to find the picture and send it to you. And I rode even throughout my years at Michigan. I usually had my bike at school. If I was there for the summers, I would ride around. But up until three, four years ago, I never rode, I think, more than 24 miles in a day. So it’s definitely — in terms of the distance riding, it’s a new thing for me.
John: Yeah. So more of as a kid, of course, it’s just getting around on a BMX or a Huffy or something. Then in college as well, more of a mode of transportation.
Joel: Yeah. I wasn’t cool enough to have a BMX or a Huffy, though.
John: Oh, okay. Okay. All right, my bad. Team Murray, I think I had one of those when I was a kid.
Joel: I might have had one of those too. Yeah.
John: Yeah. The knock-off Huffy, that was what I had. So then it was more for exercise in the last three or four years then?
Joel: It started that way. The way that it really started was it was the beginning of 2017. I was trying to come up with a set of goals for the year, which is not something I’ve done every year. I was allowing myself to just free-form and see what came out. Then I saw that I wrote down that I was going to ride in what’s called the Wish-A-Mile that year. I stepped back and I was like, “Really? Where did that one come from?” For the background, the Wish-A-Mile is a three day 300 plus mile bike ride.
Joel: Yeah. It starts in Traverse City, Michigan, which is in the Lower Peninsula, beautiful, beautiful part of the state. It’s a hundred miles a day for three days. It raises money for Make-A-Wish Michigan. Then I had a number of friends that have done it, but I had never really thought about doing it. So I was like, “Where did this come from?” But I decided to pursue it.
John: Nice, man. That’s awesome. Yeah. And they call it a Wish-A-Mile because if they’ve called it Wish At 300 Miles, no one would do it.
Joel: Yeah, probably not. There is a one day option where you’d do 50 miles. Fifty miles, for me, it’s like I might start breaking a sweat. There was one day after Wish-A-Mile last year where my wife said to me, “So how much did you ride today?” And I said, “Just 65.”
John: Oh my goodness. Wow.
Joel: “Just 65?”
John: Just as like an outing. Yeah, 65 mile. Man, you know there’s cars for that sometimes. No, but that’s impressive, man. That really is. I mean 300 miles over three days is nothing to sneeze at. I mean that’s some dedication. And you can’t just go do it. I’m sure that there’s some training involved.
Joel: Well, yeah. And that’s the funny thing. There’s a team here called Team Alex. It’s the largest team that rides in it. And I know a lot of people that were on it, so I’m sure that had something to do with it. One of whom is my brother-in-law, Bruce. He happened to be the first person I saw when I was still deciding on it. I told him that, “Bruce, I think I’m going to ride in WAM,” because it’s Wish-A-Mile, WAM. Bruce says to me, “Oh, I don’t know if you know how hard this is. I don’t know if you realize how much you have to try.”
I know what I wanted to say to him, but I was polite and I didn’t say it back. Now, recently, I found out from him that the reason he said that was that our mutual brother-in-law and then his brother had both done WAM in the past and they didn’t do well. And he felt responsible for them. But then I contacted really the guy who was my best friend in high school. And David was like, “This is absolutely doable. I’m going to help you get ready for it.” And it was great because we’d been in occasional contact over the years. Then all of a sudden, it was like, in a sense, being back in high school because we were together all the time riding. It was fabulous. I mean I don’t see much this time of year, but I’m really looking forward to when the weather warms up because I get to hang out with my high school friend again.
John: That’s really cool, man. And creating those bonds over cycling is pretty awesome, pretty awesome. Yeah. That’s really cool, man. Is that the once a year that the WAM and then other than that, it’s training and riding for fun?
Joel: Yeah, for the most part. Although this year, I plan on doing a second ride. I’ll mention in a bit, but to ride 300 miles, I ride 1,700 miles before it. And that’s just as much a part of the process as the actual ride itself. If you think about the process that people go through a marathon training, we do a little bit of a taper, so to speak, in the week or so beforehand. The weekend before, I think we did a — maybe we did about an 80 mile ride. Then the next day, it was probably a little less, so still only 150 miles for the weekend. You do what we call, a hundred miles, we call a century. I think last year, I did five centuries leading up to WAM itself.
It was really hard because we had a horrible spring. And I was really concerned about if I’d be able to hit 1,700 miles. When June 21st hit, all of a sudden, the weather got good. And that’s when I really ramped up my riding. It was then. But the centuries are really important training. I mean you’ve got to learn how to pace yourself. It’s like when you ride a hundred miles in a day, you can eat whatever you want. We stop a lot and we eat a lot. And I’ll tell you — I don’t know if you’ve got Little Caesars Pizza.
John: Oh, yeah, the $5.
Joel: Right. They’re headquartered here. But at the end of the first day last year, we’re all at this one hotel in Big Rapids, Michigan, at least all Team Alex. And there’s — I don’t know how many — 30, 40 pizzas in addition to other food. And I started with four pieces of a large pizza. Then I went back and got a fifth. And that wasn’t all I ate that night.
John: That’s awesome, man. Is that what led to a lot of the losing weight? It was getting into more of the cycling?
Joel: Well, it was a combination of — I’ve been a stress eater. After my first WAM, I was trying to be a business coach at the time and that just failed. So there was the stress from that. Then my father passed away, Labor Day, that year. So I just started eating up a storm. And it took some time. I rode WAM last year way too heavy. But this year, I expect to be — the goal’s to get down to 159, but I expect I’m probably going to be in the 160s. Then I’ll be with the hills that’s going to help a lot.
John: Yeah. That’s impressive, man. That’s really, really fantastic. Then it has to also feel good that not only you’re riding and it’s good for your health and you’re feeling good about you, but doing it for Make-A-Wish, Michigan, there’s some feel good to that as well.
Joel: Yeah. That really became a bonus out of all this. I mean I knew that it was for Make-A-Wish. And if you’re doing the three-day ride, you have to raise 1,200 dollars. If you don’t raise 1,200 dollars, you’ve got to show up at the registration day before that starts with a check for the difference. The first year, I raised about $3,000. And then 2018, I missed because I had to have surgery on a toe of all things. I know it sounds lame, but I wasn’t able to ride until after WAM because of that. But last year, I raised almost $6,800, I think.
John: Wow, that is a lot.
Joel: Yeah. And this year, I want to raise 10,000. It’s a three-day ride. Then there’s the day beforehand when they bust you up to Traverse City. A lot of us view it as the four most important days of the year because you’re really doing something really important, but there’s also just the experience of the ride. But getting to know Make-A-Wish and what they do is just absolutely incredible.
We finish now at Eaton Corporation, E-A-T-O-N. Eaton Corporation is a big sponsor. And they have a Proving Grounds out in Marshall, Michigan, which is about 100 miles west of me. And this is Detroit. There’s Proving Grounds all over the place here. So we finish the last miles on their track. But along the way, there’s what they call the silent mile. It’s not a mile long. But we all — I mean Team Alex is riding together. We finish together. There’s about 100 of us or so. And we all got off our bikes. On the side, there’s like a little rising. And there’s all these Make-A-Wish stars with a picture on one side and a name on the other. Those are all kids that had a wish granted that didn’t live. You’re walking past this and we’re not saying a word. I mean we’re just doing walking by and looking. A couple people walk amongst the stars and straighten them out if they’ve blown around a little bit. I’ve got tears in my eyes. It’s just gut-wrenching. And it just reminds us of why we’re doing it.
I do a lot of Facebook live videos during the ride so people can know what’s going on. And I’m going to do more during training this year. But on day two, I think it’s around mile 37, we’re going through some Amish country. They know we’re coming through there. And there’s a place that makes donuts, a house, a farmhouse. And these donuts are amazing. They’re like right out of the fryer. I turned to my friend. Mark was standing next to me. Of course, he messed it up. It’s like, “Mark, why do we ride?” and he says, “For the doughnuts.” I was like, “No. We ride for the kids. And for the Amish doughnuts at mile 37.”
John: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. But I mean that’s so powerful though to be going through that and and to see how many lives have been impacted by that and how fortunate we are. And to be able to give back like that is really fantastic. It’s really cool, Joel.
Joel: I’ll tell you. On day two, they told us that there’d be wish kids at various stops. There’s like seven rest stops and a lunch. So day two, I’m having lunch with a friend of mine who incredibly went to that evil university south of me. We’re talking and then this young girl — she’s maybe about eight, cute as could be — comes up and her wish had been to go to Hawaii. She’s got a three dimensional — I think it was a whale puzzle made out of dart wood, those intricate things. She’s like, “Do you think I could put this back together?” We’re all playing along. “No, you can’t do that.” So she takes it apart, puts it right back together.
Her father was behind her. At one point, it’s like, “Go ahead. Show them.” So she lifts up her shirt a little bit and looked at her abdomen. You can see what almost looks like a deck of cards, pressing out under her skin. I think it was the pacemaker. So I turned her and I said, “Are you dad?” And he goes, “Yeah.” I said, “How is she doing?” And he said, “She’s fine,” but pause, “…until the next surgery.” And you just got to remind yourself these are just kids. They didn’t ask for this.
So because of the size of Team Alex, we’ve got three Wish kids assigned to us because at the end, you get a finishers medal. And a Wish kid will put it over you and they say, “Thanks for riding.” And it’s just like — people say to me, “Oh, it’s a great thing that you did.” It’s like, “Those kids are the heroes. All I did was ride my bike and raise a little bit of money, but all I did was ride my bike.” So I got to meet whatever Wish kid.
There’s this nice kid named Thomas that’s probably 11, 12 years old. He’s got this heart ailment. It’s like Tetralogy of Fallot, I think it’s called. It’s like a combination of four different things. The only thing that you could really tell — and I didn’t even notice that his lips are blue. So my friend David and I are sitting with him and his mother and his older sister. We’re talking to him and we’re treating him like royalty because he’s Wish kid and I’m watching his sister just rolling her eyes constantly at all this. And it’s like, “Yeah. He’s a Wish kid.” But to her, it’s just her little brother. “Okay. So he’s got this medical condition. So what?” That does humanize it a little bit more. But I remember I said to Thomas — it was like the year before he’d been the Wish kid for a bunch of small teams. And I said, “So what was it like?” He’s like, “My jaw hurt?” It’s like, “What do you mean your jaw hurt?” He said, “Because I had to smile so much for all those pictures.”
John: He’s such a celebrity. Yeah.
Joel: Yeah. He liked it in there. He was putting the medal on me. And I went up to him and I said, “You better be smiling kid for the picture.”
John: Yeah. That’s really funny, man. That’s awesome.
Joel: And there’s a real camaraderie in Team Alex. Like I said, there’s lots of miles of conversation. There’s lots of miles of just riding and you’re just being quiet and you’re taking it all in. I don’t know how many million stocks of corn we ride by and how many million soybean plants. I remember there’s one time on day two. And day two was miserable this year. The wind was just horrible. But finally, there was corn fields on the left and a soybean field to the right. I started singing, “Corn to the left of me, soybeans to the right,” and whoever’s next to me goes, “Here I am stuck in the middle with you.”
John: That’s funny, man. That’s awesome.
Joel: I make up my games to help pass the time. There was one guy that was riding with part of the time who’s about 30, which is really young. Most of the people are in their 50s and 60s actually because if you’re young, you’ve got kids. I mean you can’t take off and say, “Hey, hon, I’m going to go ride 100 miles today,” she’s not going to like it. My wife once approved of it. I decided that this one guy named Orin that he just had a really great butt. That was one of my games. It’s just little stuff to pass the miles.
John: That’s awesome, man. That’s awesome. I’m just curious. Is this something that you talk about at work with colleagues and clients?
Joel: All the time.
John: Oh, okay.
Joel: In fact, I’ve got to tell you I just was talking to someone who’s a retired CPA who’s referring something to us. We’re talking on the phone the other day. The guy lives in Florida now, like all good retired Detroiters. We’re talking and it turns out he’d been on Team Alex earlier before I was involved.
John: That’s crazy.
Joel: Yeah. It’s just really interesting that you find that kind of stuff. But the day after WAM, I was only able to work out about a half day. Then I had to go home and sleep for like four hours. It’s a little exhausting. But I write the office and email and tell them about the experience and some pictures that I had. Then I say in there, “Thank you for listening to me speak about nothing but Wish-A-Mile for the last two or three months,” because it’s really either about Wish-A-Mile or people knows like, “So did you ride last night?” because as it gets closer, I’m riding almost every night, weather permitting. It might just be just 25 miles but I’m riding. I even have a route in the square mile that I live in that I call the stupid route. It’s where I do every side street in the square mile. It takes me 19 and a half miles to do it. Who would have thought? So if I’m riding by myself, I might just do the stupid route. It just depends.
John: But that’s cool that people that are around you are interested and ask.
Joel: Yeah. The firm has been supportive. A number of people will donate to the ride too, which is really nice. I really do appreciate the support from the firm.
John: Yeah, absolutely. But it also has to feel good to have something to talk about besides just the work and to know that they actually care about something you care about. It’s got to feel good because that’s not always the case. I would imagine in your career, you’ve been places where it’s, “Just get back to work,” type of a thing.
Joel: Yeah, pretty much. But it comes up the rest of the year too at different times.
Joel: And I have to be really careful when I’m with my brother-in-law because I ride with what everyone calls like Bruce’s group. There’s like type A and there’s type Bruce. And I’m saying that lovingly. I’ve known Bruce since I was a kid. We just happen to marry his sisters. But Bruce does all the organizing work so it’s great. I just have to show up. He’s got the route planned. I don’t have to spend time doing that. But Bruce has a group of people that ride with him. So it’s great hanging out with all those people. It’s just part of the whole experience. My friend, David, he and I ride together all the time, but we don’t ride WAM together because he likes to do his own thing. It’s a lot of fun.
John: That seems really awesome, really awesome.
Joel: A hundred miles in a day is doable. It’s crazy. Three hundred miles in three days is nuts. So to be even nuttier, David’s talking me into, there’s a ride, I think it’s two weeks after WAM called ODRAM, O-D-R-A-M, One Day Ride Across Michigan. And it starts at this place called the Double JJ ranch. It’s about 20 miles north of Muskegon, Michigan, so it’s right on Lake Michigan. And you had to do west, about 145 miles until you get to Lake Huron.
John: Oh, my goodness.
Joel: I’m planning on doing that this year because it’s not crazy enough to do a hundred miles in a day. My record’s about 112. But 145? Let’s see if I can do that.
John: And two weeks after, you just did 300. So good for you, man. That’s impressive. It sounds like it’s really benefited the career and the work that you’re doing, as well as creating relationships. How much do you feel like it’s on the top down, like your role as director of accounting and auditing? Or how much is it on an individual to be a part of that?
Joel: It’s up to the individual. No one at work is interested in doing it. But I’m still trying to recruit someone to Team Alex and one of these days, I’ll succeed. Because there’s so many of us. But it’s just — you meet a lot of people for every city, “John, how about riding a hundred miles a day three days in a row?” And the typical response is, “I don’t think I could ride ten miles.”
John: Right. Exactly. It’s called a century because it’ll take me that long. That’s why.
Joel: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. If we can average 15 miles an hour, that’s six hours 40 minutes in the saddle, but you got all the rest time. You’re going to lunch in the midst of that. Usually, we leave at 6:00 in the morning. And if we’re doing good, we’re back at three o’clock. Oh, that’s not there. You’re still home in time for dinner.
John: Absolutely. And as far as finding out what other people’s passions are, do you feel like that’s a tone at the top sort of a thing? Or is that something where people can create their own little circles? Or how much does that matter?
Joel: The tone at the top here definitely encourages people to pursue whatever interests them. I have to admit I can’t really tell you that about all the interests and passions of everyone else at work. We have a couple people that are skiers. Yes, in public accounting, but they’re skiers. My assistant loves to play maj. Some play maj four or five, six nights a week. Some people have their different passions. I’m really glad that I finally found something.
I’m going to be 58 in a couple of weeks. There’s someone on Team Alex, this woman who people are uncertain exactly how old she is, but 78 or 79. And she does all 300 miles. When I said there was bad wind on day two, we ran across her somewhere, the Bruce’s group of people and we’re like, “Marsha, tuck in with us. Take benefit of the draft.” She’s like, “No, I’m better on my own.” And it’s like, “I want to be Marsha.” I mean she’s one of my heroes. I hope to be riding well into my 70s.
John: That’s interesting how you say you finally have something. Do you feel like that’s made it different the way that you approach people at work and clients? Or was it something else before cycling?
Joel: There probably was something else before because it’s not like I have a hard time starting conversations with people. When I’ve said to my wife, “Apparently, I’m an extrovert,” and she’s like, “Yeah. Says he who leaves me in his dust whenever we go to a party.” But it’s always an avenue when you’re talking with someone or it’s like it somehow comes out. But I always try to find out what other people are interested too.
There’s a Facebook friend of mine that I’ve had for a long time that we’ve never met in person but with mutual friend type thing. And I keep saying to her, “Rose, we’re riding this year.” And I think this year, we’re actually going to ride together this year.
John: Oh, very cool.
Joel: It’s been a way to meet more people. One of the guys I ride with yesterday, just to talk about how can we do some professional stuff together. So it leads to various opportunities.
John: Definitely. And it’s not, “Let’s talk about more accounting and auditing.” It’s, “Let’s create a connection over something else,” and then it can lead to business, like you said.
Joel: Yeah. I’m trying to avoid being a total bike geek, though. There’s people who talk about, “Oh, you got the Shimano 905 or whatever.” I do spinning classes to help get ready for outdoor riding season. I don’t really enjoy it. One of the reasons is you don’t go anywhere. That’s one of the nice things about a bike. You’re going somewhere. It’s like, well, we do a ride where we go to Lake Erie. And it’s still really cool to me. It’s like I don’t see a great lake every day. Hopefully, when I do ODRAM, I’m going to see two great lakes in a day. But it’s just fun to go these distances and see things.
John: Yeah. No, that’s awesome. Well, before I wrap it up, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that might have a hobby or a passion that has nothing to do with their career?
Joel: Yeah, I always tell people, “Go for it.” People need to know you and like you. And I think it makes you a more interesting person. You need something to be focused on outside of work. I mean if I was reading FASBs at night, I don’t think anybody would want to talk to me.
John: Right. Totally.
Joel: I know my wife doesn’t want to hear me talk about biking, but that just goes with the territory.
John: Yeah. The alternative is me talking about auditing, so you pick. That’s really great, man. So it’s only fair that before we button this up that I turn the tables and allow you to now be the host and question me. So I’m in the hot seat now.
Joel: All right. I got three for you, John. First one, road bike or mountain bike?
John: I’m going to go mountain bike just because I don’t trust myself with the whole clipping in to the pedals thing. That makes me nervous. So I’ll go mountain bike.
Joel: Obviously, I have a road bike because that’s how I do my riding. The thing with when you’re clipped in, I mean it makes you a stronger rider. But you’re going to fall. Just accept it.
John: Right. Exactly.
Joel: But I’ve gotten better at that. It rarely happens now. All right. Next question, Beatles or Rolling Stones?
John: Oh, wow. I’ll go Beatles. They’re the original, I guess.
Joel: All right. Last one, Jen or Marsha?
John: Oh, wow. Okay. Probably Marsha, I’ll say, just because everyone always complained about her. Exactly. Exactly. But this has been really fun, Joel. Thanks so much for being a part of What’s your “And”?
Joel: You bet.
John: Everyone listening, if you want to see some pictures of Joel on his bike or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links will be there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.