Podcast

Welcome to Episode 567 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional, who just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work.

To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work. It’s the answer to the question of, who else are you besides the job title?

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture.

And I can’t say how much it means that everyone is reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Jade Glab. She’s an associate at Strategy& and now, she’s with me here today.

Jade, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?.

Jade: Thanks for having me, John, looking forward to being here and chatting about some fun hobbies.

John: Yeah. Yeah. This is going to be a blast. This is going to be so much fun. But, I have rapid-fire questions, get to know Jade out of the gate here. So, here we go. Let’s see where it goes.

Do you have a favorite color?

Jade: Pink.

John: Pink. Solid answer. All right, there you go.

Jade: Pink or red, you know, you can mix the two.

John: Okay. All right. They do go together.

How about a least favorite color?

Jade: This is a really tough one. I can’t say this is a rapid-fire because I really like all the colors of the rainbow. I would say black because it’s not super energetic, but at the same time, a nice little black dress, that’s how to go.

John: Yeah. It goes with everything, like black is solid. That’s, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely.
All right, fair enough.

More heels or flats?

Jade: Heels, absolutely. I walked in 6-inch heels on stage and you’re going to understand why pretty quickly.

John: Holy cow! Okay. All right. All right.

How about do you have a favorite actor or an actress?

Jade: Ah, I actually don’t. I don’t watch a ton of movies. I feel like because I do so much with this hobby, I don’t necessarily have the time to. Maybe the Bachelor, Zach Shallcross, love it.

John: Okay. Okay. All right.

Jade: We consider him an actor or an actress, we don’t know how real that show is.

John: No, I feel like reality TV is a lot more acting than people want to know about.

How about a favorite season? Summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Jade: Oh, summer. First of all, I’m a Leo, summer is my birthday. I live at the Jersey shore and in Arlington, Virginia. I’m kind of double timing it Hannah Montana. And because I live so close to the beach, I just love to go swimming in the ocean. It’s a little cold though.

John: Yeah, right, summer is best time for that for sure.

How about when it comes to puzzle, Sudoku, crossword, jigsaw puzzle, Wordle maybe I guess is a big one?
Jade: Sudoku, absolutely.

John: There you go.

How about a toilet paper roll and this is an important one, over or under?

Jade: First, I thought you’re going to say brand, I was going to say Cottonelle because of the cute puppy.

John: Fair enough. Fair enough. And that should be the question actually.

Jade: Definitely over. People who put it under, I’m so sorry, but can’t be a roommate, no.

John: Right. Yeah. Yeah. I’m going to switch it around and then, we’re just going to go back and forth or brand, that’s hilarious. Maybe I should make that a question going forward, that will be really funny, because there are people that are very, very, very specific on that because Cottonelle there’s all the kinds of Cottonelle.

So, it’s like the purple one, the blue one, like 18-ply, it’s like I don’t know. But, you got to love yourself, right? You got to love yourself.

Oh, this is a good one, Star Wars or Star Trek?

Jade: Oh, God, none, none.

John: None. None of the above. I’m like, looking at the stars, I like to do that, but that’s about it on that one.

Jade: Yeah. Maybe the faults in our stars, that’s the only thing I watch with the word, stars, in the movie title.

John: Okay. Okay. Fair.

Your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Jade: Oh, Mac for sure.

John: Mac. Okay. All right.

Do you have a favorite TV show of all time whether from when you were a kid or now?

Jade: Bachelor.

John: Oh, back to the Bachelor again. Okay. All right.
Jade: I mean, the Bachelor, Bachelorette, Bachelor in Paradise. It’s evolved from Sponge Bob over the years, which I would consider to be a pretty sharp crossover.

John: Absolutely. Do you have a favorite animal? Any animal at all?

Jade: My dog. I told my mom that she needed to take the dog out of the house while we’re filming this podcast, so we don’t have ra ra ra ra ra in the background.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. That’s funny.

How about ice cream? I’m a huge ice cream junkie. In a cup or in a cone?

Jade: You’re really testing me. I’d say cup because I don’t like spilling on my outfit and probably more than 50% of the time, I don’t have a Tide stick since I switched out my purses. So, it’s kind of luck of the draw whether that piece of clothing would fade

John: Fair. That’s a solid answer.

Well, I think I know this one, prefer more hot or cold?

Jade: Hot, absolutely.

John: Yeah, absolutely. I knew that one.

Jade: Even the themes of the color wheel, I like warm tone colors. My skin is warm tone. I love the colors, red and hot pink and orange, yellow, and I love the summer. How could I like the cold? If I was in the movie as Gray Elsa is a queen, but at the same time, hot.

John: Totally fair.

Favorite number, any number?

Jade: This is an interesting one. Okay. So, I’m going to say there’s two numbers, either 6 or 14 because 14 was my number in the Miss New Jersey competition when I was crowned Miss New Jersey 2019 and 6 is the number that I was called into the finals. So, when they have the top ten, I was called sixth.

John: Very cool. All right. That’s a good reason as ever.

How about when it comes to books, audio version, ebook, or real book?

Jade: Audio for sure. Like I said, I barely have time for TV, so if you think I have time read a book when I have to be very focused and I can’t even use my hand for anything else, the audiobook is great because when I’m getting my nails done.

I always say this, for the women who are listening to this podcast, I would like to just drop my hands off at the nail salon and pick them up a few hours. So, at the very least, an audiobook is going to entertain me when I’m driving back and forth to DC. It’s three and a half-hour drive, you can only listen to so many music, so I love my audiobooks.

John: Right. Fair. Okay, two more, two more.

What was your first concert?

Jade: First concert? Actually, a concert that my church community put on. So, for those of you who are here at the Monmouth County area, I live in Belmar, Ocean Grove is church community and they had an entire concert at The Great Auditorium. It’s a historical building, it’s ginormous. Honestly, it could be a great concert venue. And they had a Christian sort of pop rock band come in and that was my first concert at 9 years old.

John: Nice. Okay. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Jade: My Miss New Jersey crown, absolutely. How can I forget it? It’s something that I work so hard for, I earned, and I’m very proud of that achievement. And it’s still a big part of my life today.

John: Totally. It’s super awesome, super awesome. So, which leads perfectly into like let’s talk about it, like how did you get started down that path or what made you want to go down that path?

Jade: To be completely honest, I watched a lot of Toddlers & Tiaras. Long story short, I went to Puerto Rico on a family vacation when I was 13. It rained the whole week, so I had to figure out something to do and the channels were kind of limited, Toddlers & Tiaras was there and I’ve binged the whole season.

But, at the same time I was really, really excited about the hair, the makeup, the glitz. And so, I did my research, I learned that there was an organization out there called Miss America’s Outstanding Teen. And they’re scholarship organization that promotes scholastic achievement and community service, in addition to, you know, the glitz and the glamour amongst America’s teens. And so, I decided to enter.

It’s a competition that has multiple faces of competition. It’s actually the little sister to the Miss America Organization, which I ended up being a big part of as I kind of grew older in a way. But, it has a talent competition. I’m an opera singer, I’ve had classical training for nearly a decade. It has evening gown, fitness, answer and question, and social impact pitch.
John: Okay.

Jade: They’ve changed them over the years, so I always forget what it was.

John: Fair. I mean, that’s a lot of things. Absolutely. So, that was kind of your first, you’re like, why not? Let’s just sign up and see what happens.

Jade: Well, actually, you know what? It wasn’t so much a why not as let’s make sure I can get my mom and dad on board because remember, I’m 14 and I don’t have money for evening gowns and all of these stuff.

So, I, of course, I go to my mom first. I knew that it’s a lot easier to get an answer out of my dad than it is to get an answer out of my mom. So, I figured I’d asked my mom first, so that way if she says no, I can go answer shopping, that’s plan B, go to dad.

Jade: And that’s exactly what I did. My mom gave it a hard no and my dad said, “You know, sure. It’s a scholarship program, it’s going to teach you so much about yourself.” My mom wanted to just – she looked like she wanted to punch the man for saying yes.

John: Right.

Jade: But, to this day, he holds it over her head and says, “Patty, we’re just so glad, now, we can say we’re the parents of Miss New Jersey 2019 for the rest of our lives.”

John: Yes, which is awesome, I mean, that’s so cool. So then from there, you just kept going I guess and just…?

Jade: Yeah. So, I competed in Miss America’s Outstanding Teen. I did the state competition once, I did Miss New Jersey’s Outstanding Teen in 2016. I didn’t place. I have to say I was the worst interviewer of all time back in the day.

And, I took some time off to go graduate high school. Sometimes the state pageant week overlaps with high school graduation and I absolutely did not want to miss that.

But, I got back involved when I was 18. Placed in the top 10 my first year at Miss New Jersey, which is the older division of the competition and sort of the main one that has all the history in Atlantic City.

And then, at 19 years old, I came back and said, “We’re going to win this thing. We’re just going to bounce to the wall, go for it. There is nothing stopping me.” And I won, I’m like Miss America.
John: That’s so great because I mean, it is literally like you trained for years to have a couple of days to decide, you know, if you make it or not. Really impressive.

Jade: Thank you.

John: I mean, the amount of work that goes into that like I can’t even fathom, but I know that it’s so much more than what anyone can possibly wrap their brain around. You know, I mean, it’s like professional athlete level of stuff.

Jade: Yeah. And, you know, you mentioned something about the couple of days deciding your whole life, but the reality is what you put into it is what you get out of it. This is a 365-day per year endeavor.

When I was competing at Miss New Jersey, I was practicing my talent for probably two hours a day, making sure every motion was just immaculate. This was a piece of art that was just continue contributing, go, go, go. Practice the walk, you have to be healthy, you have to get all of your beauty treatments done, the spray tans, the nails, the hair, nails, hair, heels, I don’t know if cutting…

John: Right.

Jade: Probably not.

John: Well done. Well done.

Jade: But, even now, I’m still competing. Now, I’m former Miss New Jersey America, made top 15 at Miss America and I was so young. I was 20 years old when I wrapped that entire endeavor up and I said, why am I going to give up my hobby especially mid way through college. I want to have something that makes me live, something that gives me something to live for and that’s pageantry for me.

I got involved in the Miss Universe Organization. So, they have Miss USA and they have Miss New Jersey USA, so I’ll be competing for that. I’m currently Miss Central Jersey USA 2023 and in just about a month, we’ll see if I am able to beat only the third woman in history to hold both titles.

John: Oh, wow! Okay. Very cool. But, I love that how it’s like you said like, you know, the thing that makes you feel alive and sure works great and you’re good at work and you like the people you work with, but what makes you feel alive is often something else. And it’s great that you’re able to say that out loud, you know, because some people hide it.

Jade: Absolutely. And I got to say, I went to Georgetown University, just graduated this past May, having a career is something to live for. When I told people that I had my offer letter in hand, they were just high-fiving me, congratulations, that’s so cool. It was the coolest thing to live for especially when I did take a tiny break from pageant. But, it just gives you that extra, all right, I’ve got something to do on the weekends, not I’m just going to go roll into bed on the weekends because I’m tired. You have energy constantly flowing throughout you and I think that’s so important.

John: Yeah. And I feel like they go hand-in-hand, like one feeds the other, you know, like – like that energy and that passion that you have from pageants and training and all that stuff, that gives you the energy to carry through the week as well, which is fantastic.

And do you feel like any of these translate to a skill set that you use at work?

Jade: Absolutely. Now, Miss USA, they are an organization that’s not only glamour focused, I know a lot of people only see what’s on stage. They see the evening gown, the swimsuit, and sometimes the flabby on stage question…

John: Right.

Jade: If you have ever seen Miss South Carolina, it’s hilarious.

John: Absolutely hilarious.

Jade: It was a Pictionary and a washing machine. So, if you ever hear this, the person that I’m talking about, I’m so sorry, but, you know, I know you’re a great speaker, it was just nervous at that point. Everyone…

John: Totally. I can’t even imagine the level of nerves and the pressure and everything in that one moment.

Jade: Absolutely. But, people perceive it that way. A lot of people don’t understand that this is a 365-day a year endeavor and we have real initiatives that are going on in the background. For me, a couple of months ago, I got involved with an organization called, America Needs You. They’re nonprofit that helps first generation non-traditional students get into the careers of their dreams.

And, me, being a former community college student myself before transferring to Georgetown and ultimately landing upon the career that I did, I didn’t necessarily have the guidance at one point to figure out what is it really that I want to do.

And so now, working with first generation students, being half Chinese being able to see Chinese-American immigrants coming to America trying to find a better life and trying to put their career together, being able to be a mentor for them and helping them with their resumes, cover letters, interviews has been such special experience.

That’s the person that I am and that’s the kind of person that I would bring to the Miss New Jersey USA stage or Miss New Jersey USA stage, Miss USA, and hopefully Miss Universe if I’m to be a part of this organization. That’s what they don’t see in terms of Miss New Jersey USA and the relevance to your job.

As Jade Glab, as Miss Central Jersey USA, I’m able to provide career assistance and mentorship to young people that need it and I think that’s what the program is all about, leveraging your unique skill set to help others.

John: Yeah. And I love that. And that’s exactly a skill that translates to work because at some point, you are a senior associate or a manager, you know, or more and you’re leading teams, you’re leading people and it’s giving them guidance and you’re doing that now and like those interpersonal skills, the essential skills I like to call them matter. And like you’re perfecting that outside of work, which is great. It’s so fantastic to hear.

And interesting point that you brought up of just, you know, like these are human beings, you know, these pageant contestants, you know, even Miss South Carolina, that’s a human. That’s a real person that has things going on in their life, like they’ve got other things in their life.

And, you know, the same with you and the same with everybody at work, you know. And so, it’s really cool to just be like, yo, yo, I know what you see on TV or whatever you think you see.

Jade: So much more.

John: Yeah. It’s like three percent of who I am as a person.

Jade: Absolutely. That’s a great point that you bring up because I’ve been asked this question so many times as a pageant contestant, “What do you like about being a woman?” And, I always say I like how multi-faceted I am. I like that I can be in a male-dominated career field, having mentors along the way, being part of an endeavor where women before me have had to move folders, I have to move rocks, so that my daughters can move pebbles.

I’m also an opera singer. I sing in four different languages – English, Italian, German, and French. I also love studio fitness and I’m a former Miss New Jersey and there’s just so many different things, there’s so many components to who we are as people that pageants only make up a tiny, tiny percentage of it in the grand scheme of things, we are so much more as human beings.

And I think that’s something that can definitely be sort of brought to the career world in that you’re not just your job, you’re so much more than that.

John: I love that so much. That’s exactly it. If only there was somebody that wrote a book – oh, wait, hold on, I can tell you.

John: No, no, not at all. I was teasing.

But, you’re right, I mean, it’s exactly it and unfortunately, our default mode isn’t to show these other dimensions of who we are. Our default mode is technical skills and that’s all of who I am. And it’s like, no, no, no, like – but the sad thing is is I’ve talked to people that are later on in their career and they forget the other parts of themselves because they’ve identified only as the technical skills and their job title for so long that their other sides of them have gone dormant or extinct, like they forget and it’s like, holy crap, that’s scary.

Jade: I’m not quite there yet, so we’ll see where I am…

John: No, no.

Jade: In a couple of years…

John: No, no, you’re not even close.

Jade: But, the way I see myself in ten years, I hope to be able to compete in a Mrs. Pageant. They actually not only have pageants for Miss contestants, which is the 18 through 28. I’m 23, so I have a little bit of time left in the Miss Universe Organization. Actually, half of my time if you really do the math there.

But, they have pageants for Mrs. Senior America, Mrs. Mature America, which I’ll be doing when I’m a granny. I promise, I promise that.

John: But, that’s great because it’s like you said earlier, it’s what makes you feel alive and to ask you to stop doing that is like, I mean, that’s a crime against everyone. You know, it’s like this is what I love to do, but also all the parts that are part of it, the singing and, you know, the fitness side of it and like all those things that you also have to be passionate about. Like, you can’t just want to be in pageants and then not want to do all the other things. I mean, you’re not going to do well.

So, but it’s so cool because it’s almost exactly the parallel of what people think they see what the “stereotype” is. And people can’t be more wrong, it’s like, what? You’re totally wrong. And whatever you think it’s supposed to be a successful, you know, strategist or a successful engineer or attorney or accountant, like all those are wrong, that you could be successful in a variety of ways.

How much do you feel like it’s on an organization to create the space for people to share their “and” or how much is it on the individual to just like maybe share amongst the little circle of peers?

Jade: I’m going to say that if you want something, I’m big in the manifestation by the way. If you want something, you need to put that energy out into the universe. And if that means being competent and expressing what it is you need to achieve the goals that you want to achieve, it’s on you.

I think that company should create the space, but at the same time, you need to raise your hand and speak up and say, “This is what I’m going to do and I’m proud of it.” And if it doesn’t work out, then it wasn’t meant to be. You need to pursue what you want in your life and have that balance, because if you’re not having a career with balance, what are you doing?

John: Right. Yeah. I mean, it’s a waste of time.

Jade: Unless you really love your career. I mean, some people really do. I actually have a friend who’s an entrepreneur and she owns a jewelry brand that is literally the thing about her. That’s her work, that’s her love. And I know a lot of people in consulting end up doing startups like that. So, it’s really interesting to think about.

John: Yeah. There’s a small percentage of people where their “and” is more work, absolutely. But, there’s a bigger percentage of people where there’s other things and both are okay, both are totally okay.

Jade: It’s all about what you want in here.

John: Yeah, in your heart.

Jade: Everyone is so different. For me, my “and” is pageantry and I love it so much, it’s a huge part of my life. But for some people, what their “and” could be is just pursuing what they are most passionate about. And if that’s extra work, then that’s extra work.

John: Totally. And both are okay. It’s just for some reason the stereotype is if it’s not work, then you’re not allowed to say it. And it’s like, no, no, there’s more of us out here believe it or not than you would think.

And so, we got connected because someone who had been on the podcast saw you singing at a PwC webinar or something, like what’s that all about that PwC is doing now?

Jade: Yeah, absolutely. So, PwC has a couple of firm-wide webcasts throughout the year. And this one was a holiday theme, it was basically the year-end holiday webcast. And I saw in an email that they were looking for performers. Me, having been a former Miss New Jersey and an opera singer by training, I decided to submit an old video of myself singing, O mio babbino caro by Giacomo Puccini.

And thought, well, like this is not going to work, there are so many people at this firm. There’s no way I’m going to get picked. But, I got an email saying, “Do you want to come to New York and sing in front of basically the entire company and meet Tim Ryan?” And I said, “Absolutely. I’m 23. I can’t believe that I’m going to be able to shake the CEO’s hand. That is so cool.”

I get to New York and realized why my passions and my “and” has paid off over the years. My “and” has been over the years opera singing, it’s been fitness, it’s been pageantry, but the opera singing really came into play here because I got to share one of my most beloved “ands” with the entirety of PwC. Tim Ryan even told me it was good. I couldn’t believe it, it was so incredible.

And it was actually so nice to get to meet him too because I realized he has a great “and”. If you can get him on the podcast, you should. He’s a marathon runner. He was getting his makeup done and I’m asking him, “So, what do you like to do for fun?” He goes, “I’m running a marathon with my daughter.”

John: Nice!

Jade: That’s so cool.

John: And it humanizes him. You know, he’s not CEO, it’s like, no, no, he’s just a guy that runs marathons with his daughter. All right, cool.

Jade: If he could be the CEO and have an “and”, I think anyone can.

John: Yeah. No, but I love that how now, you know, sure, there’s – I mean, an army of associates that started the same time you did, but people recognize you now. It’s like, “Hey, are you the one that –?” “Yup. That’s me.” That’s a differentiator. You know, it’s not, “Hey, are you the one that got a 4.0?” It’s like no one gives a crap about that, like it’s more of the human side of you that makes you different than the rest of everyone else.

And so, it’s so fantastic that you were like, I want to show people this and be a part of it, so good for you. Yeah, that’s great.

Jade: I’ll be honest. My Apple watch was telling me right before I was getting on stage that my heart rate was 110. I was very nervous that I was going to mess up. But, I didn’t end up messing up. If you guys want to watch it, if any PwC-ers are on the podcast, just go to the webcast portal, there’s a recording of it and enjoy. It’s Believe in the Polar Express, it’s Christmas time.

John: Oh, nice! That’s so great. Yeah. And also too to be able just to meet the CEO, like how many other – I used to work at PwC, I mean, I met plenty of partners, but not the CEO, like are you serious, you know? But, yeah, that’s fantastic. It’s so great.

Well, this has been a blast, but I feel like before we wrap up, it’s only fair that I turn the tables because I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning. So, I will be the pageant contestant now I guess on the Jade Glab Podcast and I will answer the questions and try not to be Miss South Carolina while doing it.

Jade: All right. Are these kind of like fast and fire questions?

John: However, it’s your show, Jade, so I’m just the guest. However you want to do it.

Jade: All right. What’s your favorite Pokémon?

John: Oh, man. I don’t know any of them. The basic, is it Picachu, is that one of them?

Jade: There you go!

John: Yes, there we go. That’s like the Mickey Mouse of them all, right?

Jade: Yes, it basically is the Mickey Mouse of them all.

John: I probably need to brush up on that a little bit more, but that’s kind of the only one I know.

Jade: I would really like a first gen Charizard, probably pay my entire mortgage when I have one.

Jade: Quick yes or no. Have you ever done a Pilates class?

John: No. I would be open to it, but hopefully I don’t get stuck.

Jade: All right. If you had to pick between wearing a pair of high heels in public all day long, having a manicure and having to wait until it falls off, can’t remove it on your own, getting hair extensions, or getting a spray tan, which would you pick?

John: I’ll probably choose spray tan out of those simply because although all of those things, I feel like you’ve had to do many times, but I don’t think hair extensions on me is going to go well.

Jade: You’d be surprised. My stylist can work wonders.

John: And the manicure like, I mean, I guess I can go clear, that’s fine because when it’s growing out, then it’s like, ugh, like, oh, my gosh. Yeah, that’s brutal.

Jade: It’s got to be OPI, The Thrill of Brazil bright red.

John: Oh, oh, yeah, then we’ll go spray tan and then, I’ll let you choose how dark and ridiculous I need to look.

Jade: What is your Starbucks order?

John: Oh, yeah. I’m a hot chocolate guy. So, I don’t even drink coffee. It’s funny because when I’ll do like business meet-ups or business meetings and people like, “Oh, let’s get coffee.” And I’ll reply back, “Sure, coffee/hot chocolate.” And then, when we meet up, I get a hot chocolate whipped cream everything, like load it up. And then, I sit down and the other person always says, “Oh, I should have got a hot chocolate.” I’m like, “Yeah, you should have.” Like, what the hell? Like there’s – I mean, why you think it’s childish? No, it’s amazing.

Not that their hot chocolate is amazing, but if I’m at Starbucks, yeah, hot chocolate.

Jade: All right. You may not know the answer to this, let’s see how well you know your Miss America trivia. Who’s your favorite Miss America?

John: I don’t know.

Jade: All right, Pictionary and a washing machine, ah.

John: Yeah. My favorite Miss New Jersey is someone named Jade Glab. I’m not sure you heard of her.

Jade: Thank you.

John: I’m more of a Miss New Jersey kind of connoisseur. I don’t really – no, I – I don’t know any other Miss New Jerseys either, so don’t ask me that one either.

Jade: All right. Let’s do one more question. What’s your favorite opera?

John: Oh, my favorite opera?

Jade: And then, I’m going to follow this by what’s your favorite kind of wine.

John: Okay. So, favorite kind of wine, I can do that one easy. So, probably like Vermentino is a white wine that I enjoy that’s pretty good and not super common, but that’s a good one. Reds, I’m kind of a Pinot noir.

Jade: Yes! Pinot noir is my favorite.

John: And, you know, embarrassingly enough like don’t know a ton of operas. Yeah, I need to get out more. I mean, ballets I’ve been to several, but not…

Jade: Okay. Give me your favorite ballet.

John: You know, probably like a classic like The Nutcracker is a fun one, because I mean, there’s a lot going on. It’s festive, there’s the holidays as a kid, you know, I remember seeing it as well. So, yeah, I need to get out more.

Jade: Come to New York, there’s a ton of things going on at Lincoln Center.

John: Right. I just stay in my seat. I mean, here for the show tomorrow night, don’t worry.

Jade: Maybe they won’t charge you for another ticket. I know the accountant in you.

John: Right. Well-played! Well-played. I like it. You should do comedy as your talent next time for the show. And, I don’t know, has anyone ever done that? That would be pretty amazing.

Jade: I feel like it’s so tough nowadays because everything is very PC and a lot of the comedies I’ve seen – I’m a big Ally Wong and Sebastian Maniscalco fan. Sebastian is not so bad. He did a whole skit on chipotle, where they’re like steak, beans, chicken, the employees running to the end of the line out of this woo woo.

John: Yeah. I knew Ally when she was in New York.

Jade: Really? You knew her?

John: Yeah. I mean, it’s fun to see like Bargatze and Ryan Hamilton, guys that I used to see around the city all the time, you know, pop now, which is really exciting. So, it’s exciting for them.

Jade: Can I get an autograph?

John: It’s either that or The Bachelor, I don’t know which one, so we’ll have to see.

Jade: Much rather from Ally Wong.

John: Oh, wow! Okay. All right. There you go. Ally Wong on The Bachelorette, that’s what we need to see happen.

Jade: She’s married.
John: Yeah. But, she would just chew guys out and spit them out, it would be hilarious.

Jade: Oh, be like the guests. Oh, okay.

John: Like just roast the guys not left and right, just.

Jade: Got it.

John: That will be a show. But, thank you so much, Jade, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? And congrats in all your success and look forward to following you as this goes forward.

Jade: Thank you so much for having me.

John: Yeah. And everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Jade in action or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there.

And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to read the book.

So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends, so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 565 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional, who just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work.

And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work. It’s the answer to the question of, who else are you besides the job title?

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside work passions are so crucial to the corporate culture.

And I can’t say how much it means that everyone is reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Matt Banker. He’s the founder and lead strategist at Benchmark Growth Marketing, an agency specifically for B2B accounting firms. And now, he’s with me here today.

Matt, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?.

Matt: Thanks, John. This is fun. I’m glad to be here.

John: Oh, this is going to be a blast. I have seventeen rapid-fire questions, so we’d go to know Matt right out of the gate here before we hang out and do some art or look at art or, yeah, whatever is going to happen. So, I’d like to know who I’m hanging with.

So, this is going to be a hard one, super hard one as an artist. Do you have a favorite color?

Matt: Well, my daughter tells me that I don’t like pretty colors because she – I like black and gray and gray and black. So, I do like colors, but if I had to say a favorite, I should say it’s black, I guess it’s black.

John: Okay. All right. All the shades of black. All right.

Matt: That’s right.

John: That’s awesome.

How about a least favorite color? The pretty ones I guess, like it’s that.

Matt: No, I don’t know. Like you said, I’m into art, I do like a lot of colors. Probably there’s versions of pink I guess that I don’t like. You know, kind of like a brownish pink maybe.

John: Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, that sounds gross, like it’s just like terrible. I’m with you on that one.

How about oceans or mountains?

Matt: Oceans.

John: Oceans. Yeah, because it’s usually summer warm for some reason in my mind.

Matt: It is.

John: Oceans don’t exist where they’re cold in my brain for some reason.

Matt: I’m in Minnesota, if I’m going to go somewhere, I’m going to go to the ocean where it’s warm.

John: Right, exactly, exactly.

How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Matt: Favorite actor or actress? Can I say director?

John: Yeah. Favorite director, let’s switch it up, absolutely.

Matt: I like Wes Anderson films…

John: Oh, yeah.

Matt: And so, there’s like the same seven actors in those, so those are my favorite actors.

John: Yeah. Yeah. No, they’re all buddies. Exactly. No, I love it.

Matt: Owen Wilson probably, you know.

John: Yeah. Right, exactly. There you go.

All right. How about a favorite TV show of all time?

Matt: Oh, of all time, Firefly. It’s a sci-fi Western…

John: Oh, yeah.

Matt: Only one season, great show though.

John: Yeah, really good. And that’s great because they didn’t bleed it out too long. You know, like some of those shows, they’re like, oh, let’s make more money and it’s like, no, let’s keep it good.

How about puzzles? Sudoku, crosswords, jigsaw puzzle, or I guess Wordle now is the big one?

Matt: Oh, you know, I’ve got an ongoing – we can talk about this more later, I’ve got an ongoing art project that involves jigsaw puzzles, so I’ll say jigsaw puzzles.

John: Nice, I like it. Okay. All right.

How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Matt: It’s got to be Star Trek. I thought Andor was amazing. It was maybe the best show I thought this year, so I like Star Wars, I like what Disney is doing with it again. It’s – that’s a lot of fun.

John: Yeah. Yeah. All right. How about your computer, PC or a Mac?

Matt: I’m a Mac guy in the design world. You know, we were all in the Mac.

John: Yeah. I’m not cool enough to even go into a Mac store, I don’t think. So, I just look at the window and like, hey, you guys look awesome.

Matt: Yeah. We’ll wave and say hi to you.

John: Yeah, pretty much, like, look at that android, oh, my God.

Oh, sunrises or sunsets?

Matt: Boy, I wish I was a morning person because I do love a good sunrise.

John: But they happen so early.

Matt: Aspirationally, sunrise.

John: Okay. Okay. I love that answer, that’s honest. It’s very honest.

I’m a huge ice cream fan. Ice cream in a cup or in a cone?

Matt: In a cup.

John: Cup?

Matt: Yeah.

John: It’s more efficient.

How about a favorite animal, any animal?

Matt: Falcon?

John: Oh, okay.

Matt: Maybe, it goes back to the Star Wars thing.

John: Yeah. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. Okay. All right. I see where you’re going here.

And in marketing, do you prefer more hard copy print marketing or digital marketing?

Matt: I have a soft spot for good, you know, traditional marketing, but I’m definitely in the digital marketing space. That’s more of my expertise, so I would say digital.

John: That’s what I figured. All right, fair.

How about your first concert?

Matt: Oh, first concert was it was a youth group church trip to a local band called PFR.

John: Okay. All right. There you go.

How about favorite number? You have any number?
Matt: I’ll go with 7, I think.

John: Is there a reason? Is it, you know, it’s because I asked, like –?

Matt: Yeah, it’s the number of completion, I think is. I don’t know.

John: Fair. Yeah. And for me, it’s probably sports influenced as well. You know, there’s always that part of it that accidentally creeps in from a kid.

All right. We got three more. Books? Audio version, ebook, or a real book?

Matt: These days, I’m a big audio book fan. I like to multitask and, you know, do other things while I’m learning.

John: Right. And I mean, you pick up just as much. I mean, it’s amazing or even just driving down a road. I mean, instead of listening to the same song on seven different radio stations, it’s like, oh, I can be learning stuff.

How about toilet paper roll? Over or under?

Matt: I don’t have a strong opinion on this one, but I guess I would say over.

John: Okay. All right. Yeah. No, fair.

And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Matt: You know, right now, it’s these noise cancelling earbuds that I’ve got, they’ve been great, like the ability to really, you know, goes back to that audiobook thing really block out the world and just be able to hear what’s going on.

John: And you don’t have to do the full Bose headset kind of thing, it’s just the earbuds and, yeah, yeah.

Matt: Technology is impressive with these things.

John: It really is.

So, let’s talk conceptual art and what is that compared to just like other art I guess just for the people like me listening?

Matt: The way I talk about it is if you’ve ever gone into like a contemporary art museum or a modern art museum and you see something that’s like confusing, it makes you a little bit angry, you’re not sure if art is a complete scam and it just feels like it’s not a real thing. That’s probably conceptual art.
John: Okay. All right, fair.

Matt: It’s something I – I studied in school, I kind of accidentally ended up in an art program and I was really drawn to sculpture and to this conceptual side, which is in a lot of ways like throughout history, some of the most important artists have been conceptual artists, but they’re not exactly the ones that we always think about.

But, if you were to talk to like current art nerds, a lot of the – what they say like the top artists in the world, they’re going to be this conceptual artist. And the weird thing is so little of the public knows anything about conceptual art or this kind of the contemporary movement.

But, you know, I found it fascinating and was really interested in it despite it being like a weird niche. It’s just like really rich people on Wall Street and really poor artists who are trying to make a living…

John: That’s a weird mix of –

Matt: They care about it, so…

John: That’s quite the extremes. That’s exactly it. I love it.

And so, in school and – were you making pieces? Obviously, I’m sure it was more than just studying it.

Matt: I’ll kind of unpack it a little bit. So, the main thing about conceptual art is that it’s got a concept or an idea behind it. And so, the artist is really trying to say something using visual elements to say it. And specifically what I was doing was a thing called installation art, which means it’s the type of art that you install into a space.

So, it’s not – you don’t hang it on the wall. Usually, it’s not the sort of sculpture that you walk around, but I ended up using, you know, I did a lot of wood working and building skills. You know, just it was with wood and metal and things like that and I would install these pieces and then, there’s concepts behind it and I’m definitely a guy who’s in my head.

And so, I was really drawn even though I’ve always enjoyed art, it wasn’t about like emotional expression, which is sort of the classic artist personality that you might think of, but it was more of communicate ideas in sort of a non-traditional way.

And the nice thing about art is that it can kind of take a sideways angle, you know, to getting ideas across, whereas it’s not like that direct communication, but it sort of seeps into people through, you know, these visual means and all of that.

So, that’s kind of where I got started and like I said, I did a lot of building. You know, one of my projects I actually was growing like grass indoors and then suspending it from the ceiling on these little like plots of ground in the art gallery. And so, people would walk in and there’d be, you know, I mean you use the house plants, but you don’t often see like a mini yard especially hanging, you know, it’s hanging out like chest height, so you can see some of the roots going down underneath and then the grass growing up above.

And I was just fascinated with some of those visual ideas and then, you know, there’s some interesting concepts behind it that I was trying to explore.

John: Yeah. That’s awesome, man. Yeah. Because I mean those installation pieces, yeah, I mean, you have to have some space for that, that’s not a little thing usually.

Matt: Yeah, you really do. And I mean, again, maybe I joke a lot about art because it’s hard to make a living in art. I’m in marketing now, there’s a lot more money, it’s easier, you know, to find customers and I had chosen the type of art that was like the least saleable in the world. You know, you can’t even sell.

You know, you can sell a painting, they can take it home and put it on their wall, but, you know, installing it in the space, I don’t even know what the business model is for that exactly, so I was just interested in the idea of that really.

John: Yeah. So, I got this floating grass and we’re going to put it in your entry way and it’s like, what? Like grass, like what kind of house do you live in?

Matt: And to be fair, I do a lot of painting as well. You know, I do some oil painting and things like that and that what I’m interested in art. There are some things that are a little bit more I would say accessible to the general public.

But, you know, when you say like, what’s your “and”?, the reason I think of conceptual art is because it’s really a thing in my life that almost nobody else really is into. You know, if I go to an art museum with my friends, they’ll like look at things and like, ah, my four-year old could do that.

John: Right.

Matt: And I’m looking at, I’m like, oh, this is so fascinating, this is so interesting and so…

John: The levels of genius, like, yeah. Is your four-year old a genius because this is the best thing I’ve ever seen, you know, like it’s no, that’s so true, man. It’s so true. But, I love how you said where it takes an angle that just kind of seeps in and it doesn’t hit the person maybe right away, but who knows, you know, one month, three months, you know, a year later.

And it’s the same with, you know, when I did comedy or, you know, my speaking where it doesn’t hit you right away, but the next time you see a crackpot, you’re going to laugh your butt off, I guarantee it, you know, like when the McRib is back is on because you’re going to be like, oh, remember when. And it’s just one of those where it’s a beautiful thing to know that you’re now a part of someone else. You know, you got real estate going on in their brain now, which is pretty incredible to make a difference and how people are enjoying life, which is kind of cool.

Matt: Yeah. I love the visual side of things. You know, that definitely led me to where I went in my career. You know, in marketing and design there’s a lot of overlap there, but there is something – the nice thing about – well, I don’t know, there’s a big Venn Diagram, but art is not trying to sell you something, there’s like there is a bit of a purity to it.

And I mean, again, going back to this conceptual art and some of the more kind of like out there abstract stuff, it’s almost in a weird way there’s almost no point. It’s both trying to make a major statement and at the same time in some ways kind of has very little like monetary or commercial value. The artist really has to care about what they’re saying because they’re not – I mean, there are some people that make a little bit – that make some good money at it, but there’s like seven of them in the world that are doing this well.

But so many artists that go down this path, they’re fascinated by the idea or the form. And it’s kind of a I think there’s an interesting like purity in that, like it’s away from their like crafts marketing that I do every day in my job.

John: Yeah. Yeah, because they’re not doing it to make money, they’re doing it because it’s inside them and I have to get this out.

Matt: Now, I should say I do believe that artists should like they do deserve to make good money doing what they were – what they’re doing. I totally wish that, you know, people could find a better way.

I never found a great pathway to make money doing art and, you know, now that I – I’ve, you know, come into a different career, it’s enjoyable actually to be able to go back and create art without that pressure of needing to make a lot of money off of it.

John: Which is why it’s an “and”. You know, it’s a hobby, it’s a thing that, you know, hey, I don’t have to be revenue-generating at this. It’s something that I love to do for me, you know, and I’m not doing it for money or for my career or for your judgment, I don’t care. Like, I enjoy conceptual art, I don’t care what you think, like, you know, I’m doing this for me, which is great because then it takes all the pressure off of that.

And how important do you think it is to have that “and”, you know, or the container of “and” if you will of things outside of work?
Matt: Yeah. Well, I mean, like even pull it back just a little bit because it’s a thing that I’ve been thinking about a lot in my life. You know, you’ve got sort of the main buckets of what you have to do, right? You’ve got family and work and health and friends or whatever, you know all that stuff that’s just kind of built in and you have to think about.

And I’ve gone to a point now where I think in any season of my life, I’ve decided that I’ve got – and I don’t remember where I pick this up, someone said it. But, I have a major and a minor in my life outside of like the main things and…

John: Nice.

Matt: You know, conceptual art and art in general is at times it’s one of those two things. Other times, you know, I put it on the back burner because I have a lot of other interests. So, I play music, I like to do furniture building. I’m getting into more of that, like traditional wood working stuff. Sometimes it’s video games, I mean…

John: Absolutely.

Matt: But, I’ve kind of gotten to this point where I don’t have room for everything that I like in my life, but I have to have something outside of just the work or the family stuff. And so, kind of – and season is loosely to find, but in each season I say, all right, I’ve got room for two things in my life outside of my main things. One of them is going to be for me, like it has to be kind of personal fulfilling, you know, that’s the art, that’s the music.

And then, I try, with the other one, I try to do something that’s not me focused, that’s more like giving to other people or, you know, I volunteer on a summer camp board of directors right now. That’s like my – my minor and my major, you know, has been switching.

So, I think it’s super important because it’s really easy to get caught up where (a) maybe you never do anything for yourself, you don’t have an “and” that is giving you life outside of work. And then, (b) I think some people actually can go the other way, where they get so self-focused, but they never really think about what’s my “and” that is not, you know, just for my own benefit, but has some benefit to the community or to other people. And I think that’s really good and healthy for people as well.

John: No, I love that so much. I love that major, minor concept. And it’s interesting that the answer isn’t more work. You know, it’s more marketing and it’s like, no, I do my job, I’m good at my job, like get the basics done, but, you know, it’s totally crucial to have those majors and minors.

And I love how you break it down intentionally with a me focus and then an outward focus, which is perfect.
Matt: It also helps me release a little bit. There’s so many things I want to do, but it releases a little bit of that guilt of like, oh, I should do more art right now or I should – I haven’t played my guitar for, you know, six months or whatever. I just know that right now this is or isn’t one of the things that I’m going to focus on and so, I can just kind of let it go and say, I know I’m going to get back to that thing. It’s not that I don’t like it anymore, but it’s not one of the ones that I’m focused on right now.

John: Yeah. But, there’s something, you know, which is great, it’s not like, you know, absolutely nothing, which it’s amazing how easy it is to put the guitar down and then not have anything else that it just goes dormant and then who knows how long, but then it goes extinct and then you forget what even brings me joy, I don’t even remember.

I’ve talked to so many people where they’re just like, I don’t remember what I like to do besides work and you’re like, wow, that’s alarming, you know, I guess to put it nicely. But then, you find out that something like play guitar or run and it’s like, well, you don’t even – just pick it up, like you don’t even have to be good, like no one’s listening, you’re not on the stage in front of thousands of people, you know, just noodle around on the guitar and have some fun with it.

Matt: I mean, I love the work that I do. You know, I’ve done different things in my career and ended up in a space where now I’m doing something that I’m good at, people will pay me for, you know, I enjoy doing it. That’s like that’s a really great sweet spot, but if you let yourself just sink into work only, it can really be overwhelming.

And I, you know, I’ve done that at times as well, where I get so into the work stuff that I forget about some of that other, you know, the stuff that brings joy.

John: Well, it’s such an easy thing because the very first thing that we put down is the one thing that brings us joy, you know, like because it doesn’t provide the mortgage or income or a job title, you know, like – and that’s the very first thing that we leave outside of the office or put down and never pick up again.

And it’s a shame because it should be the other way around, like my dream is that organizations, you know, your external goals is part of their goal setting. You want to play guitar, you know, X times a year, okay, well, let’s measure that, you know, because that matter that means that you’re living your best life-type of thing.

And so, I just love how you – you break that down and you’re aware of it, you know, because so many people, it slips by and – and is this something that you talk about with clients or maybe co-workers some of the art stuff or the music or the volunteering or some of those things?

Matt: Right. It’s that concept of, you know, two things in your life, that comes up in conversation fairly regularly. A big overlap for me with, you know, having studied art, a lot of my interaction with art is actually in like a critic, like we’re analyzing something.

So, in school, you know, we’d sit there and we’d look and say, oh, what’s this artist trying to communicate and is it effective? Like, oh, they used this color, what does that communicate about, you know, such and such.

And in a weird way, you know, that’s a piece of what I studied that I use every day in my consulting, you know, marketing job where we’re sitting there looking at a website and saying, oh, you know, blue really communicates business and professionalism, but green is going to be a little bit more energetic or if you add like a nice accent color here, like, you know, what is the personality you’re trying to communicate. And so, there’s a lot of overlap.

But also, you know, a lot of folks they don’t pick up on some of the subtler things that maybe are – are making, you know, having negative connotations about their business that they never realized, but as we do in art school, you’re like how you choose this, you know, specific thing because it’s – this is connected to this and this and this and people are going to assume that you mean whatever…

John: It’s like, oh, I didn’t even know that was a thing. Like, I mean, I’ve had that happened before too where I’m like, “What? That’s a thing? I have no idea.” Like what thought or what – and like, what? Like, no.

Matt: Right, exactly. Make sure you go and, you know, you type in whatever phrase or acronym, you know, in the urban dictionary to make sure it’s not – got some weird connotation, but you didn’t…

John: Acronym or who knows what. Yeah, right? No, but that’s such a great point.

And also too like I mean, I look at my background, you know, I’m a CPA with Big Four and then I went to full time standup for like ten years. But, I realized recently that like – and it’s probably like I mean, standup is art, but it’s like you can’t stay in like a trade school like you’re learning how to weld. Well, you can’t stay at ITT Tech forever, like eventually you have to go out and monetize this.

And so, I feel like art is the same way, where it’s like those seven people can monetize it and the same in stand up, but if you really want to make a good living, like you use that skill in a different way and so, it’s awesome to hear how you’ve been able to – to really leverage that to help, you know, businesses be better.

Matt: You know, I had no idea that was my path. I actually started in college as a – strangely enough, I started as a communications major and then I kind of slowly drifted, you know, communications into web design and to graphic design and to fine arts. And then, I ended up with conceptual art, you know, installation sculpture is my concentration and I still love that.

But then, you know that you could almost trace it exactly backward. So, where I’m at now, I’m basically a communications consultant…

John: I was going to say you do all of those things now. It’s a good thing you – you touched all those textbooks along the way, so finally the money paid off.

But, yeah, I mean, in the same way like in the moment, it feels like what is going on, I have no idea what’s happening, it’s just total rollercoaster, yo-yo up and down, but look backwards, it’s a straight line. And it’s like in order for me to be where I am today, you know, speaking in conferences and helping organizations with their cultures, I have to have worked in the corporate world and then, I have to have done standup.

I mean, I don’t even blink in front of audiences anymore, like you can’t faze me, like I’ve seen stuff and done stuff that like, yeah, nothing fazes me anymore, you know, like – and so, and the same with you, you know, like and it’s just a scale down version of these big installations that you’re installing onto a monitor, you know, as a website basically and how can we have some fun with that.

Matt: I don’t have an accounting or CPA background, but I’ve ended up working primarily with accountants. And I don’t know if I can draw this direct line, but I – I think that some of the things I bring an analytical approach to art and that’s something that actually resonates with, like the analytical side of thing resonates with a lot of CPAs, but the art side of things is not something that necessarily comes naturally to people who went into a career that involves a lot of math.

John: Definitely.

Matt: And so, being able to kind of bring, you know, those pieces of my experience and brain to bear on behalf of, you know, an industry and clients who aren’t necessarily that’s not their sweet spot.

But, you know, I can still speak a language that they kind of understand because it’s a little bit more analytical than maybe a typical, you know, this is going to sound like maybe worse than it is. But, you know, artists have this reputation for being kind of flaky and, you know…

John: Well, they’re not – I mean, it’s the same with comedy – comedians. I mean, they’re show business. And there’s so many people that I know that are friends of mine that are unbelievably hilarious and no one will hear of them because the business side of it is not something that they can do.

Their brain doesn’t operate that way. They can’t do both sides, you know, the creative, you know, right brain, with the analytical numbers, left brain and they can’t bridge that. And so, the fact that you have both that and you’re able to use that for good is fantastic, man. I love it, that’s awesome. So good, man.
Well, this has been great. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe has an “and” and they feel like, well, no one’s going to care because no one gets conceptual art anyway. No, I was just kidding. No. No, but, right?

Matt: Okay. First thing if you’re listening, don’t try to go into conceptual art as a career path.

John: If 18-year old Matt is listening. There you go.

Matt: Well, I really am the sort of person that I don’t have any regrets about the path I took, I really feel like what I studied, you know, brought me and gave me the skills that I have now. And so, I think that’s really the advice, right? Like, you know, if you’re not satisfied, I know a lot of musicians friend, you know, people in show business comedy, you know, all that kind of stuff, where it’s a slug, but they don’t realize that the skills that they’ve developed there are actually really valuable in other areas.

And so, if you’re looking for that pivot, you know, think through, you know, what are the underlying skills that you’ve developed because you care about this thing so much that can be really valuable in the marketplace.

I think about like even people in the service industry. You know, servers are great project managers because they have to handle all these different things and they’re good with clients and all that. And they don’t realize, you know, there’s better money and it’s less stressful, you know, working for a marketing firm as a project manager, but your skill set might be perfectly something like that.

So, you don’t know your skills are valuable, maybe you’re just not applying them like in the place that you should yet.

John: Yeah. Of if it’s a hobby, keep the hobby and bring those skills into the office or into your career because it’s amazing how many things can come out of your “and”, you know, these passions that you have.

And they’re so much more natural for you and you’ve been exercising it for so long. Well, that’s just great advice, man. I love it.

And so, I feel like it’s only fair that before we wrap this up that I turn the tables because I rudely peppered you with questions. So, I will gladly turn this into the Matt Banker Podcast. Thanks for having me on and I booked myself, but anyway…

Matt: Okay. Well, first question, we’re on a podcast, at some point you got into podcasting, what was the first podcast that you personally were really into or that like hooked you on podcast?
John: So, you know what’s hilarious? I listen to no podcast. I don’t. Like if I a friend of mine is on or if, you know, hey, Adam Gray was on this one, it’s really great or if someone is on this one or whatever, then I’ll listen to that one, but I do not listen to podcasts…

Matt: So, you follow the guest kind of?

John: Yeah. Yeah. If it’s a friend of mine or someone that I would like to listen to, then I’ll listen, but maybe you can relate, like you’re either a creator or you’re a consumer. And I’m very much a creator. And I don’t have time for consuming because I’m creating.

And also too, like I don’t want it to influence my creating too much, you know I’d like to be original and I think that comes from the comedy side of things, where it has to be one hundred percent original. And so, I don’t want to accidentally cherry-pick from others sort of thing. But, it is great to hear and be like, oh, what else is out there to make sure that I’m not accidentally doing that, but, yeah.

So, I’m – I’m a terrible guest on your podcast clearly. So, I guess…

Matt: Okay. Well, I’ve got others though. So, you did the CPA, you know, Big Four thing, you did the comedy thing. Was there a career that you almost had that you – that you took a weird veer away and ended up where you’re at now?

John: Yeah. Well, I almost was – well, I was an engineering major for a semester and a half at Notre Dame and the Physics will do it for you. So, I don’t think Physics is real, I think it’s make belief to be honest.

But, yeah, I remember the midterm exam the second semester for Physics and I turned it in halfway. It was one of those blue books, where there’s only four questions, but it will take you like an hour and a half because each like have twenty parts. And I think it was midway through the first question, I literally I was like, who cares? Like this isn’t – like a frog on a disc in a tree and a four, like what, who cares? I turned it in, I went to the counselor switched to business and it was like, peace, I’m out.

But, yeah, engineering, I mean, I loved it, you know, I was – the whole numbers math, Legos background. I mean, I was a Lego wizard, but apparently that doesn’t translate to Physics.

Matt: Unfortunately. One more question for you. What is the – this is a weird question maybe – what is the least interesting or like most boring thing about you?

John: Oh, wow. Ah.

Matt: It’s open-ended.

John: So many things. The least interesting or boring, man, that is good.
Matt: My answer to this is usually I talk about how — I’m into gardening, that’s like a boring most people. I think of it as just like a random boring thing about me, but I…

John: Yeah. But, it’s something that other people find interesting maybe, but you’re like, yeah, I don’t know.

Yeah. I mean, I guess that like I really like oatmeal, like I mean, that’s pretty boring. I cook it old school like in a pot and then, you know, like some blueberries, like a little bit of a – a little bit of an oatmeal snub I guess, a little bit of a connoisseur of sorts.

Matt: The reason I love this question is because it’s hard to answer, but whatever people come up with is actually incredibly fascinating.

John: Oh, yeah.

Matt: You’re an oatmeal snub.

John: Like, I was like I had someone once a couple of years ago on the podcast asked me, what’s the most interesting or coolest or, you know, what’s your favorite thing about yourself. That’s also hard for me because I’m kind of very much down the middle kind of Midwest guy. You know, like it’s like nothing’s amazing, nothing is terrible, I’m just like, nah, like right down the middle. And it’s like, but not really, we all have awesome things. So, I love that question.

Why don’t reverse it, man, this should be your podcast. I love it. So, this is good. No, but thanks, man, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This was really, really fun.

Matt: Yeah. This was great. Thanks for having me.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Matt in action and connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there.

And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

And don’t forget to read the book. So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends, so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 563 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional, who just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work.

And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work. It’s the answer to the question of, who else are you besides your job title?

And really quickly, did you know that pictures of dogs foster social connections amongst people and promote trusting relationships in business settings. A couple of months ago, I had Michael Puck on and his “and’ was dog photography and he has partnered with other dog photographers to create globaldogart.com. You can find out more there and one hundred percent of the proceeds go to saving one million dogs by 2030. So, check out globaldogart.com, really, really amazing stuff there.

And also, if you like what the message is about, don’t forget to check out the book on Barnes & Noble, Indigo, Bookshop, Amazon, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so that you don’t miss any of the future episodes.

I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week and this week is no different with my guest, Shane Sullivan. He’s a senior accountant with Avant Communications outside of Chicago. And now, he’s with me here today.

Shane, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Shane: I’m so excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me on.

John: Oh, absolutely, man. This is going to be a blast. We’ve been following each other on social media for a while, bouncing back and forth and so, now, it’s like let’s do this.

Shane: Yeah, definitely.

John: So, I rapid-fire questions, so we get to know Shane right out of the box here. So, if we’re going to watch movies together, I’d like to know who I’m sitting next to in the theater. And there would be more people in the theater, that would be weird.

Shane: That’s okay too.

John: That’s okay too, right.

Favorite color?

Shane: I’d say blue.

John: Blue. Mine too, yeah, we can keep going.

All right. How about the least favorite color?

Shane: Oh, that’s a good one. I would say like that like mustard yellow.

John: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that’s pretty nasty.

How about – oh, you’re in Chicago, cheeseburger or pizza?

Shane: Pizza, yeah.

John: Pizza. Yeah, yeah, all right. All right.

And how about a favorite comedian of all time?

Shane: All time, that’s a really tough one. I would say probably Jerry Seinfeld.

John: Okay.

Shane: But, also, I’ve got Christmas tickets to see Adam Sandler. I’m pretty excited about that.

John: Oh, nice. Yeah, that’s very cool. Yeah, I’ve seen the video of him closing with a tribute to Norm Macdonald I think it is.

Shane: Oh, right.

John: Yeah, it’s really cool.

Oh, this is an important one, toilet paper roll, over or under?

Shane: Over, without a doubt, over.

John: Right. Right.

Oh, this is a fun one. Favorite Disney character or animated character I’ll take because it seems like they’re all Disney by now.

Shane: Yeah, that’s true. I don’t know if I have a favorite. I would say like my most recent because I’ve got a five-year old, we watch tons of Disney nowadays. I love Alyssa from Encanto.

John: Oh, okay. Yeah, I haven’t seen that one.

Shane: I’ve watched it probably fifty times, yeah.

John: Puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, jigsaw and I’ll throw in Wordle now.

Shane: I like Sudoku a lot.

John: Yeah. That’s how I did my accounting back in the day.

John: Yeah. There’s no 7 in this problem, let’s put one there.

Star Wars or Star Trek?

Shane: Star Wars. I just never watched like the Star Trek TV show. I think it was a little bit before my time and I never got around to it.

John: Yeah, I know, fair.

Your computer, PC or a Mac?

Shane: PC.

John: PC, yeah, me too.

Oh, this is a good one. Ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Shane: In a cone, I like it in a cone, like a waffle cone especially.

John: Oh, upgrade. All right. I see you. I see you.

Sunrises or sunsets?

Shane: Sunrise. Yeah, I like the start of a new day.

John: Yeah. Okay, I’ll take that. I’ll take that.

Balance sheet or income statement?

Shane: Do you ask a lot of accountants this? I feel like we’re going to get…

John: There’s no right answer, man. These are just completely ridiculous. If you do, that will be even funnier.

Shane: Probably just income statement.

John: Yeah. I know it’s not cash flow because I don’t know how to do that one, so I never could get that right like ever, ever. Thank goodness for computers.

Favorite animal?

Shane: Wolf. Yeah. I think when I was a kid I was obsessed with them.

John: Yeah. I love it. It’s a solid answer.

How about your first concert?

Shane: Probably like some dove stuff concert in college I bet. I don’t even know. I think I just went to – that’s like the only time I went to concert. I know a lot about movies and nothing about music.

John: Okay, fair. No, fair enough, fair enough.

How about a favorite number?

Shane: 14. I got that from Paul Konerko, who used to play for the Chicago White Sox, their first base.

John: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, definitely. Love it, that’s a great one. Two more.

Books? Audio version, ebook, or real book?

Shane: I found I really like audiobooks lately, especially the ones that they like hire actors like act out scenes. Yeah, I love that lately.

John: Yeah. It was funny, when I was doing the audiobook for What’s Your “And”? that a voice-over coach person to listen or whatever and he’s like, “Oh, you know, where’s this person from?” And I’m like, “No, it’s a real person. I’m not going to do their voice. I mean, like I don’t do UK or Australia or Detroit or, you know, like I’m not doing your voice, like there’s a real person that I talk to, man. This isn’t a fictional character.”

So, that was – we had a bit of back and forth of where I’m not doing it, like I’m not doing it. Like, it’s just crazy. But, in a fiction book, definitely hire actors and play out the scene, that makes it much better.

And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Shane: Probably like big coffee mugs. I’ve got a couple that I love.

John: Like how big are we talking here?

Shane: Not carton big. I mean, like I’ve got one here that’s pretty big.

John: Oh! Okay. That way then you don’t have to refill?

Shane: Oh, yeah, that’s the idea at least.

John: There you go. There you go. Nice.

Okay. All right. So, let’s talk movies, man. Have you always liked movies from when you’re a kid or?

Shane: I think so. I mean, yeah, I probably inherited this bug from my father more than anybody. Yeah, I grew up with tons of, you know, video tapes in the house, which eventually became DVDs. And, yeah, I mean, we had all those Disney movies lined up at our house back when I was a kid and we’d rewatch it and rewatch.

And then, I think growing up like I thought everybody else watch this much movies as I did. And then, I got to find out like nobody else has family like goes to the movies either like every weekend, like if we didn’t have games or if we have free time, we’re going to go to the movie.

John: Yeah. That’s awesome, man. I love it. And was it like get the popcorn and the candy and like the whole experience?

Shane: Oh, yeah, we always had to get popcorn and, yeah, we could get pop when we were little.

John: Maybe that’s why you love movies so much even because it was, oh, this is the time I get to have the pop and soda, you know. That’s great.

And so, were there any movies or ones that you saw like growing up that you’re like, man, that was ama – like a cool experience or a cool theater or something about it?

Shane: Yeah. I think I have, I mean, I have a couple memories of really cool movie-going experiences. We went to see The Dark Knight at IMAX at Navy Pier. That was really cool. So, I felt like I was like actually like because we’re in Chicago where it was filmed and as they’re like on top of these huge buildings. That was really cool. That was one of my favorites.

And another one as an adult was going to the Alamo Drafthouse in Austin, Texas with my wife and we saw The Nice Guys. I don’t know if you ever – have you heard of Alamo Drafthouse?

John: Oh, yeah, absolutely, yeah. There’s one in Denver as well, yeah, where you can like get food and eat, and like, yeah, and drinks and, yeah, you’re like at a table sort of or like recliners.

Shane: So, we went to like a little bit older one, but it was really cool because they had – they played like 70s detective movies like trailers before the movie and they had like a 70s theme like menu, so it was really cool for me. And then, I love that movie the Nice Guys.

John: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that’s awesome, man. Yeah, because I mean, there’s more to it than just the movie itself. You know, there is the atmosphere and the experience and, you know, the food and who you’re with and all that is all a part of it for sure. That’s awesome, man, yeah.

I mean, my first movie I remember seeing when I was a kid like super young, I don’t know how old I was, but it was when – when Star Wars first came out. And then, there was another one that was like The Last Star Fighter or something like that.

I remember sitting in that very first row and it was like my first grade or second grade birthday party or something and like the very first row of a movie where there’s like there’s spaceships taking off and like just like, whoa, like we’re under the, you know, that type of thing. But, I wouldn’t recommend the first row to most people actually because…

Shane: No, yeah. I think in high school, yeah, I went on a date and we had to sit in the front row, I don’t even know what movie, but I remember it was such a miserable experience.

John: Right. No, your neck is like…

Shane: You’re like laying all the way down in the chair.

John: Yeah. No, for sure. Yeah, not, it’s definitely something. And are you one of those that like reacts in the theater? Like, I love like laughing out loud.

Shane: Oh, definitely.
John: Like I’ll be the only one laughing at the thing or something and I’m like, we’re all here like it’s a shared experience.

Shane: Yeah. I think especially with comedy and horror.

John: Yeah.

Shane: Having a fun crowd really – I mean, it adds to the experience, like – so, this year I saw Everything Everywhere All At Once in theater.

John: Oh, right, yeah, yeah.

Shane: And the whole crowd was like laughing throughout the whole movie and it made it a lot more fun.

John: That’s awesome.

And do you feel like any of these translates to work at all whether it’s through relationship building or a skill that you bring?

Shane: Yeah. I think it definitely helps with the relationship building. It’s a way to, you know, connect with other people. I mean, most people love movies. I know there is a lot more people’s attention span has shortened to where they just want like, you know, few minute video or something. But, I mean, most people I know at some point everybody loves at least one or two movies.

John: Yeah. And odds are you’ve seen them.

Shane: Yeah, that’s true too. Right?

John: You’ve seen it and you’re like, oh, yeah. And then, you remember more about it than they do and you’re like, this isn’t even my favorite movie, I thought it was terrible and yet I know. That’s funny.

Shane: Yeah.

John: That’s funny. And that is interesting. Like have you always shared your love for movies through your career or is it something that’s more recent with social media sharing it or?

Shane: No, I think I’ve always shared it. I mean, for me I just find like I perform better at my job when I can like be myself and talk about things that I like, things that I love. And I think when you’re able to connect with other people too, it, you know, makes work better.

So, I’ve always shared it. I mean, I definitely I’m like, oh, maybe I shouldn’t talk about movies when it’s like we’ve got to get twenty tax returns done today or something.

John: Right. Yeah, but you know, you know, two to three minutes like if that’s going to throw everybody off, then maybe that’s not the job for them, you know. And it’s nice to have a little brain break and all that stuff.

But, you brought up a great point, I’m just when you have those connections with people, work is just better and it just goes better I would imagine and you’re more productive as well.

Have you come across other people that are, you know, quite the movie fanatics as well or?

Shane: I honestly can’t say I have. No. I haven’t met everybody and gotten to know everybody super well at my new job at Avant because I just started in December. But, one of the first things the CFO asked me was like if I like movies that I thought that was really cool.

John: That is amazing. But, yeah, like you said I mean, everybody likes one movie. I mean, you’ve been to the movies, like I mean, everyone has been to the movies or seen a movie. So, you know, like it’s something that you can create a connection. It’s like food sort of or it’s like, well, everybody eats, right? I mean, come on now. So, it’s great.

And how much do you feel like it’s on the organization to create a space to encourage people to share their “ands”? And how much is it on the individual to just share amongst their little circle or what have you?

Shane: I mean, I think it’s on the organization to make people feel safe, you know, to talk about their “and’. I mean, I’ve definitely like when I was studying for CPA exams, I remember talking about watching a movie and then, they were like, “Oh, you should probably like studied last night instead.”

John: Oh, goodness.

Shane: Yeah. So, it’s a mix. I mean, most people want to share about their “and”, you know.

John: And you passed that exam, so who cares? Like, I feel like the people that say things like that are the ones who don’t have an “and”. They think that the stereotype and the norm is actually they think someone that just does work and only does work and then, you know, reads about work and then comes back into work.

Shane: Yeah.

John: In actuality, they’re in the minority, the vast minority and it’s like, you know, based on my research, 92% of us have something else out of work that we love to do and so that means that you’re normal. And so, you know, yeah, there’s a time and a place for studying and there’s a time and a place for, you know what? I’ve been studying a lot and I need to do something that brings me joy and studying for the CPA exam is not on the list of things that bring me joy.

Shane: I like to meet the person who does not experience joy, right?

John: I just keep taking the exam, I already passed it four times. I just keep taking it over and over because I love it so much. And it’s like, what? No one does that. But, I feel like more people are probably gravitate towards talking to you about movies than the people that are, you know, kind of poo-poo at whatever. And so, I’m glad to hear that they didn’t discourage you from sharing it all, you know, going forward because that’s – that’s sad when that happens for sure.

And like how important is it to know what other people’s “ands” are or does it matter at all?

Shane: I think especially if you’re leading a group of people, that’s when it really, really does matter. I think people who are at the same level – I mean, if you just want to be a good co-worker it’s good to know a little bit about what is somebody else passionate about, but you’re not seeing a whole person because all you know is what they do at work.

John: Exactly. And I’ve also found that like if you think about it what you do at work part is completely replaceable. You know, whatever old job I used to have, someone is doing that job just fine right now.

But, they’re not bringing the personality or the comedy or the college football or the, you know, whatever side of me that, you know, that I bring to work-type of thing. And that’s not replaceable is that duo of doing the job and who you really are.

It’s a shame that most people don’t bring that other side or they’re not given permission to bring that other side and so, just do it, I’d say. What? Are you going to get fired because you were talking about movies? Like it’s like, really?

Shane: Probably not the place you want to be anyway.

John: Right. It’s like, like a jaywalking ticket, like as the cop is writing it, you’re like, really? We’re doing this? Like for real, like this is a thing? Okay. It’s like, okay, all right.

And so, I guess do you have any words of encouragement to anybody listening that, you know, has an “and”, but they’re, you know, maybe thinking no one cares because it has absolutely nothing to do with my job.

Shane: I think you’d be surprised about how receptive people will be and how much that will improve your connections with other people too.

John: Yeah, definitely. And it sounds from your experience that that’s been the case.

Shane: Definitely. I feel like I made stronger friendships when we all share what drives us, what hobbies we have. And for me, it’s like I don’t know how to communicate without like talking about what I love.

John: No, that’s so true and I mean, just when you were saying that, they brought me back to my college days and there’s a good friend of mine, Jim, who I’m still friends with. And I don’t think we could go through talking to Jim without an Adam Sandler or a Chris Farley line from a movie coming up. Like, it was just he talks in movie quotes, like it was just it was amazing.

Shane: My brother-in-law talks in movie quotes.

John: That’s awesome. That’s hilarious. It makes me laugh every time because it reminds me of the movie and I’m like, ah, that’s funny. So, that’s cool, man and such great advice too of, you know, just how it’s worked for you. And I mean, the fact that the CFO is asking you, you know, not, hey, can you prepare this cash flow statement or can you do this macro or – it’s, no, no, you like movies? Tell me about it. That’s really awesome to hear that that somebody that that cares about Shane as a person, not just Shane as, you know, a job title, you know, for a senior accountant guy or whatever. So, that’s cool, man.

Before I wrap this up because this has been so fun, I feel like I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, so it’s only fair that we turn the tables and you get to A Few Good Men me I guess. There’s a little movie reference. I’ll be the Tom Cruise, you’d be the Jack Nicholson and I’m all yours, the Shane Sullivan Podcast. Thanks for having me on.

Shane: All right. So, I think they’re all going to be movie based.

John: Okay. I love it. They should be. If they weren’t, I would be grossly disappointed.

Shane: How about just I will start with an easy one. What’s like your favorite genre of movies?

John: I guess comedy I would say in general.

Shane: What are couples of your favorite comedy?

John: Oh, hands down Dumb and Dumber. I mean, Ace Ventura solid. I’m a huge Jim Carrey fan. But, also, I mean, I was in college when it was Tommy Boy and, you know, Billy Madison and Happy Gilmore and all those movies. So, those are the good days, man. Yeah.

I have cousins that are younger that, you know, much younger and when they’re in college they came back. They’re like, “Yeah, we watched it,” I’m like, “What? No way, that’s amazing.” Yeah. So, and I feel like they stand the test of time. There are some other movies that I’ve seen when I’ve gone to watch that I watched when I was, you know, a long time ago and I’m like, “Ah, maybe it’s not as good as what I remembered it.”

But then, there’s some of them that stand and that’s always good. But, yeah, so those kind of movies that are just, you know, that or – or, you know, I mean, I’m always a sucker for Rudy.

Shane: So, I’m from the south side of Chicago, I’m like from an Irish Catholic neighborhood, so I watch Rudy like every weekend after we played like Grammar School football. Like, the school the team would project the movie like on the side of the garage by the field house.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so great, man. Yeah, no, I mean, it’s an unbelievable movie. It’s really such a good movie whether or not it’s a hundred percent accurate to the real story is another thing, but it’s a great movie.

And I mean, I’m a Notre Dame alum, so, of course, it’s even better. But, anything like that, remember the Titans, you know, things like that that are just like sports teams kind of things, I do enjoy those. Yeah, or like Saving Private Ryan, that’s another good one or, you know, ones that are kind of World War II kind of theme I guess.

Unless on the ones that where you have to read them, the subtitled and I know you’re on that kick now and I’m like, ah, man, like I just can’t, like I’m just, what? Like, what’s that? Because I can’t watch and read, I’m just like, what? Rewind to see what the scene was now that I know what it says, like it’s, yeah.

Shane: No, those are all good movies you’re mentioning.

How about do you have a favorite actor or actress?

John: Yeah. I mean, I would say Jim Carrey has been always, yeah, I mean, I don’t know, everything he’s done I’ve always – I mean, even, oh, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, such a great movie. I love that. I love the Matrix, I love like — everyone makes fun of Keanu and whatever, but I feel like they’re both really good people too, which is kind of cool. But, everything Jim Carrey has done like I just – I mean, even Cable Guy like I love that movie. I think it’s hilarious, like it’s so funny to me.

Truman Show is another one. I saw it in the theater, I laughed out loud probably five or six times. It’s not a funny movie necessarily, but there are scenes in that movie that are so funny and I’m the only one in the theater, I’m like, “What?” And everyone’s like they’re looking at me like, what’s up with the guy that, he should probably be wearing a helmet, like what’s wrong with him? Like does he ever have a chaperone? Like why is he here by himself? But, yeah, I’d say Jim Carrey is, yeah, my favorite.

Shane: Okay. How about what’s the last like great thing you watched? This can be a TV show or a movie.

John: Probably the last show that I watched that I thought was really good was Queen of the South. I thought that was pretty good. I thought that was well done.

Shane: I haven’t seen that one.

John: It’s kind of on par with Breaking Bad sort of, where I love it because the characters, you have to decide is this a good person or a bad person. Like most shows and most movies, here is the good team, here’s the bad team, you’ll like the good. But, those shows like Breaking Bad, it’s like he’s making meth and selling meth and like blowing things up like as a drug kingpin eventually, but he’s doing it to provide for his family and to get cancer treatment.

So, you’re like, ah, like, you know, one episode he’s a good guy and you like him and the next, it’s like, man, this is the worst person ever, what is wrong with this guy?

Queen of the South is sort of like that too, where the characters, you’re like, oh, I’m supposed to like this one, but I kind of don’t right now, you know, type of thing, which is fun because then it’s a choose your own adventure kind of style, I feel like I have – I have some say in how I experience the show. So, yeah, I’d check it out.

Shane: How about give me like five favorite movies?

John: Five favorite movies? Wow, I probably already said them. Yeah, I definitely already said them. I mean, Rudy, Dumb and Dumber.

Shane: A Few Good Men.

John: Oh, yeah. I mean, I don’t know if it’s in my top five, but it’s always it’s a good one. It’s just that scene is so great. It’s intense, man, you’re like, whoa. And I mean, I grew up my dad was military, so I was around that and I know you’re prior military, so I’m sure you like, whoa, I know a guy like that.

Yeah. I’m trying to think of any other. As a kid, I loved – there was a Disney, Fox and the Hound.

Shane: That’s a sad movie.
John: It’s so sad, man. And I’m a crier, man. Like, Rudy, I’ll cry every time, every time. Like, I just hear the music and I’ll get emotional and like, oh, boy, somebody it’s getting dusty in here everybody, like it’s – it’s just, yeah, I know I get into it, man. It’s, you know, I laugh along with it, I feel it, you know, like just sit there and observe, like I’m invested in it.

And, yeah, although, you know, the new Matrix one, that’s probably – I guess Queen of the South as well as the newer Matrix that just came out – well, probably just didn’t come out, but whenever I saw it.

Shane: It came out in 2021.

John: Holy cow, that’s crazy.

Shane: No, that’s pretty good for me.

John: I thought it was a little long. And in the middle, I felt like the middle part made it a little bit like, well – but, otherwise, I mean, I just – I just love that whole concept of what you think is reality is not actually reality. And it’s like I think that’s fun to explore. So anyway, yeah, man.

Well, this has been great. I really appreciate you being a part of What’s Your “And”?, Shane and, yeah, look forward to following your tweets for what movies I should be – should be watching in the future. So, thanks for being a part of this.

And everybody, if you like to see some pictures of Shane in action or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com, all the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to check out the book.

So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you’re using for sharing this with your friends, so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 561 of What’s Your “And?” This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional, who just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work.

And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work. It’s the answer to the question of, who else are you besides the job title?

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com.

The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Dave Bergstein. He’s the Chief Innovation Officer at Bergstein CPA. And now, he’s with me here today.

Dave, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?.

Dave: It’s a pleasure being here and I always enjoy speaking because that’s part of my “and”. Actually, I read your book a couple of times, almost finished it a couple of times, but now, I will finish it because you just told me, I can get it on Audible. I’m into listening now, so I will definitely finish it now.

John: Oh, no, thanks, man.

Well, me met so many years ago on my first association conference speaking thing and been in touch ever since, so I’m just excited to have you be a part of this. So, thank you, man.

Dave: Thank you. I’m glad that you moved on from the spreadsheets and the large accounting firm and brightening up everybody’s life was what you’re doing.

John: Oh, no, that means a lot, man. I appreciate that for sure. But, I do have some rapid-fire questions get to know Dave on a new level here. So, let me start with this one, this one might be an easy one. Favorite color?

Dave: Green.

John: Green. Solid. How about a least favorite color?

Dave: I’ll go with green again, I’m a green person. Look at my shirt.

John: Everything is green. It’s your favorite and your least favorite, like everything is all green. I love it.

Okay. How about a favorite Disney character or any animated character?

Dave: Grumpy.

John: Oh, nice. Very good. Very good. And why Grumpy?

Dave: Because I want to scare people away, I wear the Grumpy shirt. And you know what? I live – I live in Orlando, so I get to go to Disney all the time. So, I’m not really grumpy, I’m happy, but I like Grumpy.

John: Yeah. But, Grumpy is honest. You know, like it’s like, hey, not everything is great all the time.

Well, how about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzle?

Dave: No. The only thing I’m into these days is Wordle doing it with my family. We roll on a group message and every day we each try to solve it. I solve it most of the time, but not all the time.

John: Nice. Yeah, that’s definitely been a popular answer for sure. Maybe I need to update the question.

How about favorite actor or actress?

Dave: I like Woody Allen. And my millennial little baby boom is probably that’s my byline and I guess Woody Allen has been around a long time, you got to get used to New York humor.

John: Exactly. Definitely.

How about – this is an important one – toilet paper roll, over or under?

Dave: I’m left-handed, so it goes a certain way and I like it under and I’m Charmin Soft to be precise.

John: Charmin Soft, even the brand. There you go. You got to love yourself, right? There you go.

How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Dave: I’m not a trekky. You know, I went to Disney World, I went on the Star Wars ride because it’s easy to go on with my family. I’m more into doing things myself than playing in the machine.

John: Sure. No, absolutely, I get you.

How about your computer, PC or a Mac?

Dave: I’m a PC person, but I’m a iPad, iPhone, Apple watch…

John: Everything else Apple watch they call that. All right.

Dave: And the only reason is I still do tax returns and when you do tax returns, you need a PC.

John: Yeah. Definitely. Definitely.

How about – ooh, this is a good one, sunrise or sunset?

Dave: Well, I’m a little bit sunrise, sunset. It comes with my heritage, so I’m coming from Europe.

John: Right. There you go. Yeah.

Dave: But, I do get up every morning even today when it was cold when we do our pickleball here. I live in a adult resort retirement community. They’re trying to come up with a mission statement now. They’re pushing that around and pickleball every morning.

John: That’s great, man, which is why I can’t wait to jump into here for sure.

Ice cream in a cup or in a cone?

Dave: In a cup these days, vanilla with sprinkles.

John: Ah, nice. There you go.

How about a favorite day of the week?

Dave: Every day is a great week for me. I don’t care what day of the week it is.

John: Okay.

Dave: Yeah. I like Tuesday this week because I started the teaching. I teach college and class just started Tuesday. So, Tuesday is a good night.

John: Okay. All right. Since you have the accounting background, balance sheet or income statement?

Dave: I guess I’m an income statement kind of guy.

John: Okay. Yeah. Just get right down to the numbers.

We got four more. Favorite concert?

Dave: Barbra Streisand.

John: Oh, wow! That’s classic. That’s amazing. Very cool.

Dave: And I even sat next to her in a theater once watching a show.

John: Wow! That’s amazing.

Dave: She came in late with her two kids, sat right behind me, nobody was allowed to talk to her.

John: Oh, right, yeah. No, I’m sure. I’m sure.

And since you have the New York background, favorite toppings on a pizza loaded up?

Dave: I’m just a pepperoni kind of guy. Not into pineapple, not into bacon, just give me pepperoni.

John: Just a slice with pepperoni, there you go. Nice.

How about favorite number?

Dave: 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1028. You can see I’ve been doubling it and doubling it. I’m stuck with that number.

John: There you go. Nice. I love it.

And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Dave: I have no favorites, I’m an equal opportunity person. I guess I like my paddle and my ebike these days.

John: Yeah. I was going to say those sound like pretty important things.

And so, let’s talk pickleball, how did that get started?

Dave: Well, all my life I’ve been playing racket sports from paddle ball in the city of Brooklyn to Coney Island. Paddle ball, racquetball, hand ball, tennis. And once I moved into this community eight years ago, I discovered pickleball, they were playing it.

Nobody ever talked about it. Now, it’s the fastest growing sport and must be a great business because Tom Brady is getting into it and LeBron James. I guess Tom is going to make up for the FTX, he’s got to make money now.

John: Right. But, I mean, for those listening that don’t know what pickleball is because I really didn’t know what it was until about a year ago, how would you describe it to someone?

Dave: I guess it’s a cross between pingpong table tennis and tennis. It’s a court that’s smaller than a tennis court. Generally, you play doubles rather than singles, even though the people on the 55 do singles. Less running and strategic game, a lot of thinking. And don’t go in the kitchen, which once you learned how to play the game, you’ll know where the kitchen is.

John: Okay. Okay. And because the ball is kind of like a hard Wiffle ball.

Dave: It is a Wiffle ball, plastic.

John: Yeah. Yeah. And then, the paddles are – it’s like solid.

Dave: Solid wood. No holes in it.

John: Yeah, exactly. But, I would imagine you could still get some pretty good hit on that.

Dave: You can. If you got good wrist action, you got good hit. It’s not about the hit, it’s about the drop shots, the thinking, and twist.

John: Oh, okay.
Dave: And even at this age, I can enter a senior tournament and maybe someday, I can make money at it.

John: Oh, look at that. Okay. All right. But, I mean, it’s just something you enjoy doing, which is awesome.

Dave: It’s great exercise, talk to a lot of people. We’re talking about our backgrounds, what we’re doing. And actually, I got people asking me, when can I collect my RSD, etc, stuff like that, you know.

John: Right. All the tax return questions now that it’s turning to you.

Dave: Actually, R&D, I was thinking of RS something around it.

John: Right. Right. Right.

And so, it just got started in your community, that’s when you started you saw people playing?

Dave: Speaking of Jerry Seinfeld in Florida and what goes on in Florida and communities they used to have tennis courts. Now, there are big fights in these over 55 communities converting the tennis court to a pickle ball court. The tennis people don’t want to give it up, but more and more of these communities are converting the tennis courts and converting it to pickleball courts and more and more pickleball court is coming up.

John: No. I mean, because I mean, it was at a like a vacation resort that I was at and they had you can either do tennis or pickleball. I mean, it was the same court and I was like, well, I don’t play pickleball, let’s do that. And, yeah, it was fun.

Dave: It’s easier to play than tennis. So everyone can pick it up, so it’s easier even if you’re not as fast as you used to be.

John: No. I love it. And I guess are there tournaments there or I mean, do you have any fun stories from playing that you can remember?

Dave: Well, we did one tournament in the community for breast cancer to raise money by having it, you know, and it was fun. There are tournaments all over the country, senior tournaments, etc.

But, it’s fun, you get to meet people, everyone always makes comments about, you know, they don’t go in the kitchen, they make reservations, things like that.

Dave: And it’s mixed doubles in some cases, so you’re playing and you’re meeting a lot of people.

John: That’s really awesome. And do you feel like the racket sports maybe in his – over your career, but especially the pickleball that it translates to anything at work?

Dave: I think everything you do translates to something about yourself.

And, with pickleball, I’m looking for the angles where to put the ball. So, I guess that goes back to tax strategy. I’m more a tax person than a – even though like talk about client accounts, it’s all about advisory service now. Complete change.

And when I think we’ll see these big four firms as they start to divest the audit, I think there’s going to be a whole different change in way the world looks at accountants going forward. So, you know, everything relates to a little bit about work. You’re looking for the angle here, you’re looking for the angle there. And it’s also teamwork and being able to relate to other people.

John: Yeah, which I mean being able to relate to other people, I mean, that’s something that is never really taught in school and it’s not really a skill set that people hang their hat on. You know, it’s instead of memorizing tax code or knowing, you know, whatever all these forms, but being able to relate like how crucial do you think that is?

Dave: I learned my lesson over the last seven years playing pickleball by I guess alienating some people upfront with my sarcastic New York humor.

Dave: And then, when people got to know me, they knew it’s just, you know, my style of fun across the board, so you got to be able to relate to people, not to get them mad at you.

And kind of interesting, we got some people that live here that didn’t speak English upfront. They moved here from other countries, but as we got into pickleball and we socialize with each other, language barriers went down.

John: Yeah. I love it. And kitchen was probably their first English work they learned.

Dave: Don’t go in the kitchen, yes.

John: Right, exactly.

Dave: People learned how to say ouch in several different languages.

John: Ouch. I’m pretty sure I can translate that one.

But, I love that, you know, how it’s just through pickleball it created that human connection that, you know, is something that we can also take into our careers as well.

Dave: Yeah. It’s gotten me to relate to people from – a lot of people from the Midwest here, some people even from North and South Dakota, Kentucky, and again, I’m in New York at different, you know, and we’re all starting to relate to each other with personality-wise. I made a lot of new friends.

John: That’s awesome, man. I love it so much. And I guess was the racket sports something you had talked about in your working career with co-workers or with clients ever throughout your career?

Dave: I talk a lot about it. Over the last seven years, I’ve talked a lot about pickleball. I used to talk about more racquetball. Again, you go through phases, racquetball was I guess my mid years and now, it’s pickleball.

You know, when you start giving a speech you’re talking you talk about pickleball and people want to know what it is, how do you play it, it just breaks the ice. One of my clients just sent me a text yesterday, nude pickleball is becoming a thing.

Dave: Not really, but there’s nude pickleball in Florida or in Kissimmee. There’s a resort where they’re doing nude pickleball. I don’t think I could do that.

John: Right. Yeah. Maybe not for me, but good for them. That’s funny.

But, I love how there were follow up questions when you talk about, you know, racquetball or pickleball especially pickleball. And there’s rarely follow up questions on the work technical speak, you know, type of thing, which is interesting to me because I mean, when I fly, you know, speaking in conferences it’s, you know, “So, what do you do?” And if I say I’m an accountant, people put on their noise cancelling headphones, like there’s no follow up questions, like they’re done talking to me.

Dave: Every time I start giving a presentation to people, I ask them, “What do you do?” And when they say, “I’m an accountant,” I’m going to say, “Wrong answer.” You know, I say, “You got to say, I help people be more liquid, solvent, and profitable.” You know, what do you want to achieve in life? If they don’t say those questions, it turns it off.

John: Yeah. No, it definitely does. And especially if you can bring the human side to you, you know, “I play pickleball” and they’re like, “Professionally?” “No, not professionally, but that’s what I do.” Like, you know, you didn’t ask me what I do for money, like, you know, what my work is, you know, that’s a different question altogether.

But, I love how throughout your career like racket sports has been there. That’s always a thing that’s the technologies changed for sure, you know, the organizations that you work for, your job titles, you know, the technical expertise that you’re using changes, but your “and”, those racket ball sports have always been there. I think that’s important.

Dave: I guess when you think about it, again, growing up in Brooklyn, I didn’t have tennis courts, I started with hand ball from hand ball to paddle ball and all the paddle sports.

John: Right.

Dave: So, I guess that’s followed me and I guess it’s followed me in my work career. But, I guess I got to pick up bowling next.

John: Right. Yeah, but I mean, it’s one of those things like if I told you you could never play pickleball again or any racket sports again, you’d be like, whoa, time out, like those are fighting words, you know.

Dave: Well, let me answer that question. As a matter of fact, I did have something come up last January. Last January, I was playing pickleball and I went for a shot and I tore my Achilles tendon.

So, I had to be operated on. I thought I’d never play again and I’m back at it. But, you know what that did to me last January when that happened, it made it the best tax season ever because I couldn’t leave my desk, I had to actually do tax returns. And instead of delegating what I normally delegate, I got more involved with my clients because I had to sit there I couldn’t do anything.

John: That is interesting. But, you’re back at it, like you didn’t stay away, like you were like, oh, I can get back to it.

Dave: Right. I got back as quick as I could. And in between when they say rehab, that’s when I picked up the ebike. And now, I won’t go back to the regular bike. I think, you know, when you look at the past and you look at the future, probably the next ten years, they won’t be selling pedal bikes, those will be antiques. Everyone will be having an ebike, sort of like the Jetsons and what they predicted.

So, and you think of accounting that way, you go back to it and, you know, because they do a lot of these technology presentations and you back and, you know, the iPhone wasn’t there in 2007, you know you go back and a big portable phones Panasonic, which is the big box.

In fact, you know, all these people coming into accounting today don’t realize what it was like with a pencil and paper actually write visual presentations. I have a pocket projector and a pencil here.

So, what I teach with the students now, I’m teaching accounting, I try to explain to them why accounting is exciting and why they should go into it even though we keep hearing less and less people coming into the profession because people are telling them how great the profession really is. You don’t have to be an accountant, but you have to understand accounting to be in business, even to be a good comedian today, right?

John: Oh, definitely, absolutely, especially that because you have to count up all the money that you’re not making, you know. But, it’s also like really important that we show them who we are as professionals beyond just the technical expertise, because, you know, there’s the stereotype of what people think you have to be to be a successful accountant, to be a successful lawyer, to be a successful engineer, to be a successful IT person.

And it’s not true, there’s – I could point to twenty different people that are all totally different and all successful, but they’re very different people. And so, you know, I think that it’s important that we show them that you can have a life and you can be who you are and bring that to the profession. Don’t let the profession hammer you into, you know, a square peg into a round hole-type of thing.

Dave: I think it applies to all professions. You don’t need the suit and tie, you need to be yourself and your clients relate to you whatever they are and that’s the change. You got to be yourself.

By the way, I predict that the younger people coming up won’t be playing golf as accountants, they’d be playing pickleball because millennials don’t want golf.

John: Oh, yeah, whatever your thing is. I’ve talked to so many people that are, well, I learned how to play golf because when I started, that’s the only way that you did business development or whatever. And now, it’s like, you know, clients don’t want to play golf either. Some do, but some don’t.

So, you know, it’s just meeting them where they’re at as well as your co-workers where they’re at as well as yourself, like just be honest with yourself as far as like, you know what? I don’t like doing that, I like doing this. And then, you find out, holy crap, there’s like so many other people that like doing this too, you know, whatever your thing is.

I feel like the more that we can bring the human side of who we are to the work, the more impact we’ll have, you know, on our own career and on our clients because that matters, you know. And you’ve always brought that, I mean, your personality, your “ands”, your other things, like I mean, you didn’t hide behind the veneer of what you’re supposed to be, you know, and clearly success.

Dave: And I think that’s important, it’s all about human relationship. You know, it’s not about transactional deals. If you don’t have a relationship with somebody, things get better — if you don’t have a relationship, you have nothing. You know, it’s just transactional in nature, so everything is about building upon each other and everyone should be getting along. That’s part of what is lost in politics right now. There’s no civility. You can’t get along.

John: And that just translates to social media and to, you know, emails and things like that. Just get off away from your desk, go walk over to the person, have a conversation with them. You know, the tone isn’t missed. And like when you use your sarcasm, you can tell that it doesn’t land properly at times and then you can easily follow that up, where if it was a text or an email or a Slack message or whatever, like you don’t know that the other person didn’t read it the right way. And so, you know, just be human and get off from behind your desk, that stuff matters.

And talking to clients, the same way, you know, pick up the phone, go meet them in person. Like, it doesn’t have to be just an email or a quick email that seems impersonal.

Dave: I’m big face-to-face and I’m big if I can’t be face-to-face, I’ll be Zoom-to-Zoom or Factime-to-Facetime, which is still better than the phone because you can see facial expressions and see what’s going on with people.

John: No, I love it, man. I love it.

So, do you have any words of encouragement to anybody listening that may be has an “and” that they feel like no one cares about or because it has nothing to do with my job?

Dave: Well, I think everybody should care about their “and” and let people know what interest them. Don’t hide behind what you do. Don’t just be the expert at whatever subject you’re talking about if you’re an accountant, a lawyer, a banker. It’s not about the accounting, the law, the banking, it’s about your relationship.

Let people know who you are and what you enjoy doing and watch out, you’ll find out they like doing the same things, you’ll have better relationship and you’ll be doing better business.

John: No, it’s exactly right, because — I mean, there’s a lot of accountants and bankers and attorneys, you know, using your example, but the ones that also play pickleball, well, now, that’s a smaller subset. And if the client also plays pickleball or is a manufacturer of pickleball equipment or whatever, well, now, I have a differentiator that other people don’t and so, that’s important.

But, if you leave that outside or never bring it up, well, then, you’re just the same as all the others.

Dave: Right. You got to tell people, let them know what’s going on. It’s like the accountant just does work and let – doesn’t let his client know he does these other things. If they don’t know he does these other things, they can’t ask questions about it.

John: Exactly. You can’t create that sticky relationship and then you lose clients and now, you’re competing on price, which means you’ll go broke and so, like there’s no differentiator there. That’s awesome, man. Such great advice.

Well, I feel like it’s only fair that since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning of the show that I turn the tables and make this the Dave Bergstein Podcast. So, if you have any questions for me, I’m honored to be your guest.

Dave: Mr. Garrett, what’s your favorite color?

John: Favorite color, blue, all day. Green is a good solid backup though.

Dave: Well, I was going to say blue is my second favorite color because the word for Intuit and they like blue because it blends in and it’s soft, that’s why it’s blue, people relate with it. I was watching how they change that colors in their ads and they actually look green at one time and solid blue.

What do you see for yourself in the next five years? Are you going to become a more famous podcast, more famous speaker, or are you going to be in the entertainment world?

John: I feel like pickleball champion is right around the corner. No, no, probably another book and just continuing to push the envelope and bring fresh perspectives to different industries of how to humanize the workplace.

I find that when I speak if I push people five steps outside their comfort zone, they’ll end up, you know, backing up to maybe two steps outside their comfort zone, but it doesn’t feel uncomfortable because I pushed you further. And so, it’s just getting people to just celebrate each other’s, you know, “ands” and shine the light on those things as an organization. And it’s been cool to see it happen over the last couple of years to be honest.

Dave: And probably that’s the most important skill people have to have in the future because everyone learns differently, everyone interacts differently, the world is changing into a more hybrid diversity equity inclusion. Everybody is different and larger firms and even smaller firms have to realize they go to relate to everyone and everyone’s got to relate to them. So, if you can relate to people, that’s a tremendous plus.

So, I look forward to your next book as an audiobook, I’m going to look at that and I’m going to repurchase on my Kindle Audible because I want to finish the book. Again, I have a lot of books sitting behind me. I pick them up, I put them down, but when it’s Audible, I listen to it in the car and I listen to it while I’m bike riding.

John: Well, thanks, man. No, I appreciate it. That means a lot, so thank you.

It’s been so fun having you be a part of this, so thanks so much and I look forward to next time I’m in Florida maybe playing a little pickleball when I’m down there.

Dave: Let me know when you’re at the conference, I’ll get extra paddles. We’ll teach you how to play the game.

John: There you go, you put me right in the kitchen right away, I can feel it.

Well, thanks, Dave.

Dave: Thank you very much, I appreciate it. I look forward to listening to this.

John: Yeah. And everybody listening, if you like to see some pictures of Dave in action or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com, all the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to read the book.

So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends, so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 559 of What’s Your “And?” This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional, who just like me is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work.

And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that differentiate you when you’re at work. It’s answering the question, who else are you besides the job the job title?

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com.

The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And?” on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Heather Winandy. She’s a Client Engagement Manager, Private Equity at RSM. And now, she’s with me here today.

Heather, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”.

Heather: Oh, it is quite my pleasure.

John: This is so great. We met so many years ago at an RSM event and it’s so cool to have you on.

Heather: I was looking in the area to see who I could find that was like comedian or could host an event for us out in Rockford and your name popped up and I have not forgotten you and that was years ago.

John: Yeah. And that was my first and last time in Rockford, so, you know, it gets laughs. But, it was so awesome and then, you know, to stay connected on LinkedIn and so, it’s just cool to have you be a part of this for sure.

Heather: Yeah. I’m excited to see where this goes.

John: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I have seventeen rapid-fire questions to get to know Heather out of the gate here.

Heather: Oh, okay.

John: It’s going to be a lot of fun here. This might be an easy one. Heels or flats?

Heather: Oh, flats, totally. I would still wear heels if my feet didn’t scream, but the weight of my rear end has driven me to flats.

John: Fair enough, fair enough. All right. I’m going to stay in flats all day.

When it comes to puzzles; Sudoku, crossword, jigsaw, or maybe Wordle I guess?

Heather: None of those. I do word search.

John: Oh, yeah, word search.

Heather: But, I like I hate puzzles. I hate them, they’re frustrating to me.

John: Word search though, it’s like, yeah, whatever.

You know what I do? I create a word search where three of the words weren’t actually in the thing and then, like…

Heather: I love when I find words that are not supposed to be there.

John: Right. Yeah, or the other way around, yeah, it’s bonus. There you go. That’s hilarious.

How about a favorite color?

Heather: Every color. Like, I guess I gravitate towards black, purple, and teal, but I have a rainbow. Everything is a rainbow for me.

John: Yeah. All right.

Heather: I used to only wear black and my mom was like, “Please stop wearing black.”

John: Right. What are you a vampire? What’s going on?

How about a least favorite color? Or I guess none of them because they’re all great.

Heather: Yeah. I don’t really have a least.

John: Okay. Fair enough, I’ll take it. I’ll take it. How about a favorite Disney character or any animated character?

Heather: I don’t like Disney. I guess I like Minions most.

John: Minions. Okay, that totally counts.

Heather: Yeah, because they’re mischievous, I like them.

John: Yes, very mischievous and I see how you would like that. That would be kind of like that’s awesome, which is why we’ve been friends for so long. There we go.

How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Heather: Again, I don’t really, like I don’t dig supporting people for – like I look for the person and to me like famous people are characters and I don’t…

John: They’re just people.

Heather: Yeah. I’m like such a nerd about it, but like it’s just not a thing for me.

John: No, fair enough. I think putting them on a pedestal, they’re just humans, like they’re just they have faults just like us, they just happen to be on screen, you know, in front of everyone. But, totally, I hear you on that.

This is an important one. Toilet paper roll, over or under?

Heather: Over, a hundred percent over. However, I learned that when you use over, there’s a reason you use over because it causes you to use more. When you use under, you’ll actually use less, which is why the preference from the company is the over.

John: Yeah. Very interesting. Interesting, yeah. So, they don’t have our best interest at heart? What?

A buddy of mine, Tom Ryan, comedian, so funny, he has a whole bit that he did on Letterman about baking soda and how they literally tell you to pour it down the drain to clean your disposal and your sink. Yes, you buy those and you pour it down your sink.

Heather: You but it to throw it away.

John: Just pour it down. Like, you’re like, what? And you buy it? And you see that’s what. Yeah, just pour it down, like, okay, same thing. That’s amazing.

PC or a Mac?

Heather: I’ve always had PC. I don’t even think I’ve used a Mac ever.

John: Yeah. I tried like it was like throwing left-handed. I was like, I don’t even know how to do this, if I can just go back.

Oh, is it sunrise or sunset?

Heather: Set. I am not an early riser. It’s cool when I see the sunrise, but I will stay up for the set.

John: Okay. There you go.

How about ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Heather: Oh, gosh. There’s more calories in a cone, not that it matters, either way.

John: You’re already doing ice cream, why not?

Heather: I usually buy it just in a cup because I don’t want it to be messy.

John: Exactly. You know what I do? I sweet talk them and get them to put the cone on top of the cup.

Heather: Right.

John: Like a little hat. And they do it, it’s amazing.

How about a favorite day of the week?

Heather: Hmm. I would say Saturday because I get the most done, that it’s like my…

John: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, for you, absolutely.

How about your first concert?

Heather: Oh, my gosh, there’s two stories to this. So, I was not a concert-goer as a child, my sister totally was.

John: Okay.

Heather: My parents took us to see Neil Diamond and the Monkeys at Poplar Creek…

John: Oh, my gosh!

Heather: And I remember like my dad got so upset about because it was an outdoor theater, people are like peeing on the wall behind us. He was like, “I have children here.”

Heather: But then, when I’m old to go to a concert, the first one I went to was Metallica as an adult with my husband.

John: There you go. Metallica was my first concert. Yeah, that’s amazing. But, Neil Diamond and the Monkeys, like, wow, that’s legendary. And it – that doesn’t seem like the kind of audience that would be peeing on walls.

Heather: I know, yeah.

John: You know, but it’s outdoors and why not?

Heather: Yeah. And it was in the 80’s, I…

John: Yeah, it was that – it was that time where people just did that. But, that’s hilarious, that’s awesome.

How about a favorite number?

Heather: Hmm. I always say 12.

John: Yeah. Is there a reason?

Heather: I don’t know. I often say like, “What are you 12?”

John: And I say yes, you know, like it’s – I mean, it’s a solid number, that’s for sure.

But, here’s a tricky one since you’re in Chicago area, cheeseburger or Pizza?

Heather: Oh, pizza, a hundred percent.

John: There you go.

Heather: Like, not even a question.

John: Not even a question. There you go. And do you prefer more hot or cold?

Heather: Hot. Like, it doesn’t matter what it is. I would rather be sweating than cold any day. I would rather have hot food. I would rather be on the beach than in the snow, like everything…

John: All the things hot whether it’s food or the atmosphere or whatever. All right.
All right. We got two more.

When it comes to books, audio version, eBook, or real book?

Heather: I love real books, but I get distracted, so I gravitate everything now is audiobook just because I can get through it. I listen in the car and I tend to retain it a little bit better too.

John: Interesting. Okay.

And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Heather: I thought about this a little bit. I would say if it’s a physical item, the favorite thing I have is my wedding ring. It’s just very symbolic to me. I look at it regularly, it reminds me of stories.

But, if I’m thinking about like myself, my favorite thing I have is my curiosity. Like, if I didn’t have curiosity, I would be an entirely different person.

John: Yeah. I love that. That’s a great answer, which probably leads to your exploring and even your pottery, which I saw on LinkedIn which is the whole reason I was like, hey, I didn’t know you were doing this, like, let’s – be a guest on the show.

Heather: Yeah.

John: But, exploring, have you always been the explorer type?

Heather: Uh-hm. I don’t know how far back it goes, but definitely as an adult, I’ve always investigated something. My husband said to me one time, “You never finish anything.” And I’m like, “That’s not true. I try things and then, if it’s not still intriguing to me, then I move on to the next things.”

Well, I am one of those people that if you said to me, hey, you want to go do blah blah or will you go here? The answer most often is, yeah, let’s go, let’s figure it out. So, that’s just like me as a whole. I love looking into something new and going is this the road I want to go down or is that a one and done kind of thing.

John: Yeah. And in the roads as long as you want it to be, you’re going to do it for X time or X distance or whatever. You know what? Yeah, it is, I did finish. It’s done.

Heather: Yeah.

John: And like, you know, it’s like…

Heather: Exactly. And sometimes I come back. Like, I was an ice skater as a kid and I was going down like the competition road and one – at one point I was like, I’m done with this. And then, in my 30s, I picked it back up and I did it for ten years.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so cool. To me it seems like, you know, the end bucket the outside work hobby passion interest bucket is a container. And sometimes it’s ice skating, sometimes it’s pottery, sometimes it’s, you know, concerts, sometimes it’s this. But, you know, it doesn’t have to be the same thing all the time, but you’ve always had that container.

Heather: Right.

John: And no matter, you know, what job you’ve had at RSM or where you’ve been before that and like, you know, that container was always with you.

Heather: And it also gives you tools to take to the next thing.

John: Yeah. Can you give me some examples of that that come to mind?

Heather: Well, in skating, it was teamwork because it was synchronized skating, so what you had to do was work connected to people. And so, whatever you did affected them, so that was a really strong metaphor for teamwork.

And, in pottery, I’m learning patience, which I have not had like ever. I am not a patient person. I’m like, come on, let’s go, get to the plan, let’s move on to the next thing, are you done yet kind of stuff. So, like that’s another one that is teaching me, you know, things that I can bring into the next into anything else too.

John: Yeah. And especially into work, you know, which isn’t the reason why you’re doing these things or these things were part of your life, but they are part of Heather and it’s like asking you to come to work with one arm tied behind your back.

Heather: Well, and you know now that you say that, I used to say there is two different Heathers. There is Heather at work and there’s Heather at home and, you know, it’s whether you know which one or the other.

And really now more as I’ve aged grown, it’s the whole person, so what you pretty much see is what you get no matter where you are with me now.

John: Yeah. And do you feel like that’s made a difference at work or in your life in general?

Heather: Yeah. I think so because I don’t have to separate and, you know, I don’t have to think about which persona or which attitude or, you know, which mentality I have to be in, it’s all one place.

John: Yeah. And there was someone I was talking to at a conference I was speaking at and after I got done, he came up and he was talking to me and he’s like, “I told a friend of mine I need to bring all these different – “ his name was Shay – “all these Shays together.” And I was like, “Well, I challenge you and be like there’s just one Heather. It’s just like a trivial pursuit piece, where there’s different pie pieces, but it’s one Heather.”

And so, it’s so cool to hear that you’re bringing the one Heather all the pie pieces to work, you’re bringing them all to skating, all to the pottery, all to these things.

Heather: Right. And I think people have to remember that too when they’re working with people at work, like there’s more than this person here that is in front of you. If they have bad attitude, it’s probably not because of that situation. It probably came, you know, with them from something else.

John: Yeah, absolutely. And in a lot of the research that I found, it’s if someone is outside of work life is not settled, then their inside work life will never be good. They’ll never be, you know – so, make sure that your people are living their best life.

Heather: And that’s one of the cool things about working here too is they are thinking about the whole person, which is really impressive and there’s so many times that I’m like, “Are we sure that we’re an accounting firm? Like, there’s so many other things that go on here.” It’s pretty interesting.

John: That is cool. And I’ve seen that in the marketing as well with RSM, which is so encouraging to see that, you know, organizations are realizing like, wait, we have a human here that so many more multidimensional than just their job title technical skills.

Heather: Exactly. Yeah, it’s pretty cool living through that development and not just be a cog. It’s pretty cool.

John: And I would imagine — do you feel like, like relationships at work are different now than maybe, you know, ten-plus years ago?

Heather: Yeah. And like people think I’m wacky when I do things like this, but I don’t think of the person here as their title. So, like we got a new CEO last year and I was in the office that he works out of which is different from mine. And I sent him a message while I was there, I was like, “Hey, I know that you’re in the office today and I’d loved to meet you. Would you like to go to lunch with me and my team?”

And he was like, “You know, I’m busy today. You know, I’m glad to hear about that you’re here and maybe next time we can catch up.” But, my friends, like people that I work with were like, “Are you out of your mind?” I’m like, “What? So what? Like…”

John: It’s just a guy, a person. It’s just a person that’s he needs his lunch too. You know, like, it’s like, why not? I mean, what I get a no.

Heather: Yeah.

John: How important do you feel like it is for managers or CEO types to just be more human and peel back those layers?

Heather: So, I wish badly that our leadership and even in any company, it doesn’t even matter that here where I work, like get out of your office and go meet somebody and say hello. And I’m sure they are terrified and I know that they are, like the youth that are coming in would never walk into an executive’s office and be like, “I am struggling” or, you know, “What did you do when you were 25 and you came to work here?” Like, that’s just not something they do.

So, if you as leaders come out to your people and greet them and talk to them and take a step back and remember how it was for you when you were 25 will make a huge difference in people’s experiences.

John: Totally. And such a great example too of how whether it’s right or wrong, if you have a title, people have a stigma around that.

And so, you know, you have an executive level title, even just manager title, they’re scared of you. And so, the more that you can do to come down to their level to meet them where they’re at, to, you know, just care about people, then, you know, the better it is for everything involved, you know. And so, that’s such a great example.

Heather: I hope that somebody hears me say that because that will be really cool if it made a difference in someone’s experience that a leader took that step back. Rather than I’m worrying about where their next level is, think about where you’ve come from and help those people.

John: I mean, I remember when I started in Big Four, like I thought partners were gods.

Heather: Right.

John: They must know everything and be…

Heather: Let’s not let them hear that. Let’s not let them hear that.

John: No. Well, I mean, six months later, I was like, I couldn’t have been more wrong, like, wow! And they drop way more F bombs than I ever thought like way more.

Heather: When I first went to work in corporate – and like I said earlier, I went to a private school and I came home swearing, you know, in my…

Heather: Early 20s talking to my parents F bombs and, you know, what F could fill in the gap of a sentence to be more empathic. And my dad was like, “I’m so glad that I paid extra money for you to go to a private school to speak like a truck driver.”

John: That’s hilarious. That’s so funny. You’re like truck driver. What? No, I’m speaking like a partner, like what have you said. That’s so funny.

But, it’s so true like, you know, just the more that we can be vulnerable a little bit and that’s where what’s your “and” comes in, you know, like you’re talking about the pottery or the ice skating, like are you on the Olympic team? No. Does it matter? No. Is your pottery in a museum? No. Does it matter? Also, no.

You know, like you’re doing it for you, but you’re also showing like I’m not an expert and super awesome at everything all the time. And it’s a great way to just humanize yourself just a little bit. Plus, it brings you joy to talk about.

Heather: Well, it does. And so many people in my class too, I try to remind them when they’re going for perfection, they’re like, “Oh, it’s not awesome.” I’m like, “Are you kidding? That thing is a masterpiece, like compared to what I’m even making, like it’s so perfect in my eyes.” And people just don’t see it.

And one of the things that somebody said this fall, they were like putting their pieces in a show and she had this piece that she did not appreciate to the level that she should have. And she was like, “I’m just going to put this out there.” And like within a second, somebody had bought it. And she was like, “Why would you want that thing?” But, it’s not your vision, it’s somebody else’s vision.

John: Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, and especially when you’re creating from scratch, it’s so hard, so hard to do in the perfectionist mindset and so that this exercise has to shatter that when you’re at work. So, I’m sure at work when something is not perfect perfect, you’re like, it’s good enough, like this is great.

Heather: Yeah. However, I hate the phrase, “good enough”. And it’s just a me thing, I don’t want to limit myself to saying, good enough. Like, so, I don’t know, it’s a thing with me, where my parents always taught us that there is always better, you can always do better. And it might not be perfect, it might not be the vision that you had, but what’s the next step that you can take to improve or what did you learn from that, that you’re going to work in the next version of it.

And it really is hard for me to be okay with that. Like, I had a call with my cousin last night and I was showing her some of the pieces that I had made. And I’m like, “This one is a little wonky and this one is not the best color and it’s smaller than it should have been.” But, like I was being very critical of myself, where it wasn’t what she saw.

And I was like, “This one piece,” I was like, “I don’t even know why I made this.” She was like, “I love that piece. You need to send it to me.” So, it’s a really interesting take. And because I come from the corporate world of where everything should be X or why isn’t it to this degree or, you know, we didn’t shatter the goals that we had set, it’s what can you turn it into.

And, that’s something that I am developing. And I’ve spent so many years going, well, I will just work on it a little bit more, I’ll work late to make sure that it’s perfect. And nothing is ever going to be perfect. I wouldn’t say I’m a perfectionist to a degree that my parents are, but you always want to. Well, I do would always want to provide the best product I can.

And having that mindset of it’s not that it’s good enough, but it’s the quality is acceptable. So, kind of the same thing, it’s semantics, but…

John: Well, it’s also it’s what it’s supposed to be because I’ve got to work through this myself as well and, you know, and it’s, you know, well, I’m where I’m supposed to be, this piece of art is what it’s supposed to be. I mean, when I wrote the book, right? And so, you turn the manuscript into the publisher. Two weeks later, you come over, oh, this should have been in the chapter, oh, this should have been – and it’s like, well, then you’d be writing forever.

Heather: And it’s so many things that like our – you hit send on the email and you’re like, oh, I should have blah, blah, blah or whatever. But, yeah, like if you’re working on a deadline, you have to give the best product you can up to that deadline. And like you said, you’ll be working on something forever if it’s going to be perfect.

And then, I actually heard somebody recently that was kind of art, I can’t recall what it was. But, they said, “If I had kept working on it, it would have been worse.”

John: Right. Absolutely, because then you ruin it and then, you can’t back up. You know, it’s not like in, you know, on a computer where you can undo. You know, it’s like, ah.

Heather: Yeah. It was really interesting. I love that stuff that twist your mind that makes you think differently.

John: Oh, me too. That’s so awesome. And it’s so cool that you’re that like these things matter and then they create great relationships at work that are stronger and make work go better.

Heather: Uh-hm. And now, I mean, those friends that I’ve created at pottery, you know, you get to know about their lives and it’s not just about what you’re doing there, you make all these other new relationships and maybe they impact them like something that you can attribute from your other experiences to them. I’ve had people that I’ve met that now work with me.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah. And I mean, it’s just having this other dimensions because if you were just one dimensional all the time, I mean, you’d be terribly boring to talk to. I mean, it’d be – it’d be, oh, God, this again? Really? Okay.

And then, it just makes you better at life and better at work and better at all the things. And I love that, that’s so great.

Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe they have an outside work hobby that they’re like, ah, no one cares because that had nothing to do with my job?

Heather: I think everything has to do with your job and really your job has everything to do with you. So, like I said, it’s bringing the whole person and I’ve heard people say like follow your bliss, like what sets you on fire, what gets you excited about and that like for me going to pottery every week. I’m like, “Oh, my class is Tuesday. I get to go to pottery.”

John: Yeah.

Heather: And somebody at class said, you know, it’s less expensive therapy, which is totally is, you know, and an outlet…

John: That’s great.

Heather: You talk with people, you get to – like if you wanted to, you know, punch a clay, go right ahead, it’s fine.

John: Yeah, exactly. I love that.

Heather: Like, include your whole self is really what I’ve learned over the last couple of years.

John: Yeah. I love that. That’s so awesome and such great words of – of advice for everyone listening.

But, I feel like before we wrap this up though, it’s only fair that I turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Heather Winandy Podcast. So, thanks for having me on.

And so, I asked you all the questions at the begging, so you can ask me whatever you want. I’m all yours.

Heather: Okay. Hmm. So, John, I believe there’s a helmet behind you. Why is that important to you?

John: Notre Dame football helmet. And it was signed by Coach Brian Kelly. It was the coach before Marcus Freeman now. It’s important to me because I went to Notre Dame, but then I also do some work writing the award show for the football team. And so, I get to see a lot of the behind the scene stuff and do that. And two of the shows were nominated for Emmy’s over the years, which is pretty awesome.

Heather: Holy mackerel, that is so awesome. That is not the answer I was expecting.

John: Yeah. And it’s not just like his signature, it’s like, you know, John, thanks so much for your help with Echoes, go Irish, you know. So, it’s like a personal note from him on an actual real like helmet out of the equipment.

Heather: That is cool.

John: Yeah. So, it’s cool. It’s cool for me. And it’s one of those things where I keep it here because it brings me joy, you know. And then it’s also back there for video calls, so then people can be like, well, clearly that’s important and then, you asked and then now, you know stories happen.

Heather: That’s cool. What’s your favorite color?

John: So, my favorite color, blue for sure. Yeah, I’ve always liked blue, always, always, always partially because wearing blue is okay for me, but it’s also…

Heather: It’s the color of eyes.

John: It goes with the eyes I guess, but I just I’ve always been a blue – a blue person. I don’t know why.

Heather: I was blue — growing up, everything I had was blue and my sister, everything was purple. So, even our first cars, our first cars a blue one and a purple one.

John: That’s funny. So awesome, Heather. Well, thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”.

Heather: Thank you so much. I look forward to reading those books you recommended as well.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Heather in action or of her pottery or other things, connect with her on social media. Be sure to go to whatsyourand.com, all the links are there.

And while on the page, please, click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture and don’t forget to read the book.

So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends, so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 557 of What’s Your “And?” This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that differentiate you when you’re at work. It’s answering the question who else are you.

And if you like what the show’s about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And?” on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Alex Miles. We met 5+ years ago at a conference, and I finally got her on the show. She’s the partner, program manager, accountant channel with FreshBooks. And now, she’s with me here today. Alex, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And?”

Alex: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited. It’s so good to finally sit down and talk with you. Yeah, like you said, we met at a conference back in 2017 and kind of stayed connected through social media over the years as you do in today’s day and age. But yeah, it’s so good to be here.

John: No, this is gonna be awesome. So much fun. And I have 17 rapid-fire questions. Get to know Alex.

Alex: All right, let’s do it.

John: Probably should have asked you in 2017, but I never got around to— I’d be random. Hi, my name’s John. So anyway, what’s your favorite color?

Alex: My favorite color is lavender.

John: Oh, nice.

Alex: Yes. I love lavender.

John: Yeah. And it’s got a scent with it.

Alex: Yeah. Oh, yeah. And that’s my favorite scent.

John: Oh, there you go. All right.

Alex: Yeah. When my husband and I went on our honeymoon in Maui, one of the things that I really wanted to do was go to the lavender farms. So I made him do that. Instead of sitting on the beach, we drove up to the mountains in Maui and did a tour at the lavender farms.

John: Well, where else are you gonna see lavender farms though? I mean, not in Idaho, that’s for sure.

Alex: I mean, there actually is surprisingly.

John: Oh, really?

Alex: Yeah.

John: Holy cow.

Alex: Yeah. Every summer, I like to go to— There’s a lavender farm about like 20 minutes from here and you can like pick your own lavender. It’s really cool.

John: That is cool. All right, there we go. How about a least favorite color?

Alex: Ooh, I’m gonna say red, but only because I don’t like red on me. So I don’t like the way my skin mends with red.

John: It’s funny. The least favorite color is almost all the time a color that people don’t like to wear. Like that’s the reason why. It’s always, always that, which is great. I love it. How about a favorite Disney character?

Alex: Ooh, favorite Disney character.

John: Or any animated character really, Disney seems to have ’em all now.

Alex: You know, I’m gonna have to go with Mickey Mouse only because my son is currently obsessed with Mickey, and Mickey just makes me so happy.

John: Yeah, it’s a classic. You can’t go wrong with that. Absolutely. Very good. Very good. How about when it comes to puzzles, Sudoku, Crossword, Jigsaw? We’ll throw in Wordle. That seems to be a new one.

Alex: I’m gonna have to go with Jigsaw.

John: Oh, okay.

Alex: But only because my husband forces me to do Jigsaw puzzles with him. I’m not a puzzle person at all. But quality time, I’ll do jigsaw puzzle.

John: Okay. Okay. Nice. You’re a team player there. I’m impressed. I like it. How about are you more talk or text?

Alex: I am more talk ’cause I like to talk. I like to voice text.

John: Oh.

Alex: So I’m a huge voice texter. And even on Slack, I like to use the voice memo of Slack instead of typing everything out because I just feel like I can like fully articulate what I’m trying to say via text or—

John: And the tone comes across ’cause it’s an audio message.

Alex: Exactly. So regardless whether it’s a phone call or a voice text, you’re listening to my voice. So, sorry. And also, I suck at texting back. All of my friends know this about me. I am the worst texter when it comes to texting back. I will start a text message and then I’ll get sidetracked, like total squirrel moment. And I forget to text back. So if I force myself to voice text somebody back, it forces me to like immediately get back to them.

John: Yeah. ‘Cause once you hit record, you can’t get sidetracked like halfway through.

Alex: Nope.

John: It’s like all right.

Alex: Nope.

John: I like it. Okay. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Alex: Ooh, I’m gonna have to go with Ryan Reynolds.

John: Oh. Oh, okay. He’s a popular one. That’s for sure.

Alex: Yeah. He’s easy on the eyes as well.

John: All right. And he smells like lavender. And so, there’s that.

Alex: Right. I’m sure he does. No, he’s also just a really great actor and he’s hilarious.

John: Yeah. And he seems like a really good person too.

Alex: Yeah. And a great dad it seems like. And yeah, he just seems like an overall great guy.

John: I’ll take it. Totally. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Alex: Oh, I’m gonna have to say neither ’cause I’ve never seen either one of them, but I’ll stick on the star theme here. And I’ll go A Star is Born, but the Lady Gaga version.

John: Oh, okay. Okay. There you go. Nice. I like it. I’ll dig it. That’s a good twist. I was like “Where’s she going with this? How many star things are there?” Yeah. A Star is Born, of course. All right. There you go. I like it. That’s awesome. Your computer, PC or a Mac?

Alex: Oh, it’s a PC.

John: A PC’s is the thing that I use ’cause I’m not cool enough to use a Mac. That’s what it is.

Alex: Mac all the way.

John: That’s very funny. Ooh, this is a fun one. Sunrise or sunset?

Alex: I’m gonna have to go with Sunrise. And I say that because we just moved into a new house, and we sit up on a hill, and we can oversee the valley. And our master bedroom oversees the whole valley. And so, in the mornings, the sunrise is so beautiful, and I love waking up with the sun.

John: Ah, that’s impressive.

Alex: Yeah. The sun peeking through and yeah.

John: That’s what having young kids will do for you right there.

Alex: Yeah.

John: That will do it. And how about ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Alex: A cup. I mean, I like cones, but they get messy and—

John: And it’s all over. Yeah. It’s just like a race against time to finish it before it gets all over the place. Yeah. How about a favorite day of the week?

Alex: Ooh, favorite day of the week. You know, I have actually grown to really like Mondays. As crazy as that sounds, I’ve grown to like Mondays just because I reset for the week and I have become a very to-do list person. And so, I write down all of my to-dos for the week, and I have a vision of like what my week looks like.

John: Nice. Absolutely.

Alex: 5 years ago, I would not have been a Monday person, but here I am.

John: Or a sunrise person.

Alex: Or a sunrise person.

John: Yeah. That’s hilarious. How about a favorite band or musician?

Alex: Lady Gaga.

John: There we go.

Alex: I have my brother-in-law to thank for that. He has always been a Lady Gaga fan, like since he was very little. And I have grown to love her. My kids actually absolutely love her. You know how Spotify or Apple Music do the like yearly wrapped list and whatever? Well, both my husband and I are like 0.5% of the top listeners for Lady Gaga every year because our kids—

John: Oh, my gosh.

Alex: …are so obsessed with Lady Gaga.

John: That’s great. It’s better than Barney or whatever the kid’s version is that’s out now.

Alex: We will get in the car and my son immediately says Ga-ga. He’s 2. And he is just like he needs Gaga to play. I went and saw her with my brother-in-law back in September. And we had VIP packages. And we were right up against the stage. And I don’t know if I will ever go to such an incredible concert. Like it should be on everybody’s bucket list.

John: Yeah, it’s an experience. That’s for sure.

Alex: It is an experience. She is so talented.

John: Yeah, no doubt. I forget if it was Netflix or whatever, The Becoming Gaga, that’s such a great— Whether you like her music or not, I mean, it’s an unbelievable special behind the scenes, peeling back the curtain of what it’s like to be her, you know. And really, just the human side of her is impressive.

Alex: Yeah, she is amazing for sure.

John: Yeah. I mean, she’s no Alex Miles, but, you know, whatever.

Alex: I know. Trust me. I know.

John: Trust me. I know.

Alex: Put her people in contact with my people. I’ll teach her a thing or two.

John: Right? Exactly. Exactly. How about a favorite number?

Alex: 12. And I say that because I was born on July 12th, so 12 has always just been—

John: That’s a solid number.

Alex: …my favorite number.

John: So there you go. All right, we got two more. When it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or the real book?

Alex: I really like real books. I like holding a real book and just being focused on the book itself. But I do love audiobooks, and podcasts, and all. I like listening when I’m doing something like cleaning.

If I’m just sitting there or driving, I feel like I get distracted when I’m listening to something. My brain just starts thinking about a million other things. So if I’m cleaning, I like an audio book. If I’m just sitting there, I like a real book.

John: And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Alex: I do love my Peloton.

John: Oh, okay.

Alex: Yeah. I love my Peloton, but I think what I love a little bit more than that— and my husband, when he listens to this, he’s gonna roll his eyes a little bit— my phone.

John: Right? You can’t send voice texts without a phone.

Alex: I know.

John: I guess maybe on your computer. I don’t know. Macs are so fancy. But your phone on your Peloton. There we go.

Alex: Yeah. Kill two birds with one stone.

John: That’s awesome. I love it. That’s so funny. But let’s talk socializing. Were you like that as a kid and just kept it going or is it how it’s always been?

Alex: I feel like my entire life my mom has always called me a social butterfly.

John: Okay.

Alex: And I’ve always been that way. I’ve always been somebody that just talks to strangers as bad as that sounds. I will have conversations with anybody. Yeah. I’ve always been a very social, outgoing person. It’s never been hard for me to have a conversation with people.

John: That’s awesome. And I mean, now it’s a huge asset to have for your job. I mean, a skillset that you can’t teach necessarily how to do that. So it directly leads to work skillset.

Alex: Absolutely.

John: I guess do you have any favorite moments of talking to strangers or random people where it’s like “Wow, that was an amazing experience or kind of like no one’s gonna believe that that just happened”?

Alex: So I think something that’s always been really cool for me when it comes to just socializing and going back to like my phone and like being very active on social media and having that tie into my job a lot is connecting with people through social media and having the opportunity to meet that person in real life, and forming friendships with people online and knowing so much about them through a screen, and then getting that opportunity to finally be face-to-face with that person.

Something that’s really cool to me is back when I was in college, I joined this fitness group on Facebook. And it was people, primarily women, just girls, college-aged, all around the world that were a part of this group. And I made friends with a handful of girls. And one girl in particular, we really just hit it off. And I randomly one day— I was like “I’m gonna go to Ohio and I’m gonna go visit her.” And my parents were like “No, you’re not.

John: Right. It might not be a real person.

Alex: Yeah. This could be like an old bald man for all we know. Like nothing against bald men.

John: Right. I was like “Hold on.” No, I’m just kidding. Like I’ll be there soon enough.

Alex: You’ve got a lot of hair. You’ve got a ways to go.

John: You’re very kind. Thank you.

Alex: No, but I randomly just booked a flight to Ohio. And I flew to Ohio. She picked me up at the airport, and it was her. And we talk every day still. This was 8 years ago. And she is my best friend. We went through pregnancy together. She is, yeah, one of my best friends. And she lives a million miles away, but met online through social media.

John: That’s so cool because like there’s times where I’m like this isn’t even real. It’s make believe. We’re talking right now and tweets are flying by. But it is real. And you know, you stay in touch that way and then you can reach out and just stay up-to-date with people and things like that. But then you’re right. When you do meet them, it’s pretty awesome to be like “Wow, you’re really like this all the time.” Or I get all the time “Wow, you’re so much taller than I thought you’d be.” And I’m like “Well, what’d you expect?”

Alex: I won’t lie. I thought the same thing when I first met you. Same thing with you actually because we met on Twitter through Qubo chat. And that’s how you and I got started connecting. And then we’ve met in real life at QuickBooks Connect. And I remember thinking the same thing. I mean, you look like you could be tall, but like you are very tall.

John: It’s like 6’6″ is like an okay. You know, like I feel like anyone taller than me, I’m like “Whoa, how do you fly? Like how do you drive a car?” Like I’m right at the edge where anyone taller than me, I’m like “Oh, my God.” Like somebody on the podcast actually one time asked at the end— They asked, “You know, what’s your favorite thing about yourself?” And I said, “That I’m appropriately tall. Like I can get things off the top shelf, but I’m not awkward.”

Alex: Yeah. Like lanky.

John: Yeah. Like “Why aren’t you in the NBA? You’re so tall.” And it’s like “Well, I’m a point guard. You know, like I’m not even really that tall.” But it is funny the reactions that people get to things. And I’m sure people with you, it’s like “Wow, you’re like this all the time. That’s cool.” You know? ‘Cause it’s neat to see that. And I guess like I said earlier, that just lends directly into your job, is being authentic online, being authentic in person, just this is who I am. And like has there ever been a time where it crossed your mind of like “Hey, maybe I shouldn’t talk about the Peloton or maybe I shouldn’t talk about my family or other things ’cause people are gonna judge me for not being all work all the time or anything like that”?

Alex: No. I mean, in previous roles, I definitely felt that. But I feel like where I’m at currently and where I’m at in my role and the company that I’m at, I feel like I can always be authentically me. And I feel like that it just goes to show what leadership can do and how much of an impact that leadership has on how you can fully bring yourself to work. So I feel like there have been times where I can’t necessarily talk about it, but where I’m at currently, yes, I absolutely can talk about everything under the sun.

John: Right. Right. Yeah.

Alex: And not feel like I’m out of line for talking about it or sharing.

John: Yeah. And just curious like do you feel like relationships are different with your coworkers in a place where you’re able to share more?

Alex: I feel like there’s a level of comfort for sure. I feel like if I show people that I’m comfortable enough to talk about me being a mom at work, me getting super sweaty and hopping on to a meeting and talking about this really hard ride that I just got done with, then that kind of leads into other people feeling comfortable enough to do that and share themselves with me. I feel like if I share, other people will share. And that’s how I am just in general, not just my work life, but my personal life as well. I’m a very open person as far as what I share and who I share to.

John: Yeah. And I would imagine that, I mean, work gets done differently maybe better by knowing these other sides to people around you and also just ’cause you care. You know, just that level of caring has to make a difference for sure. And I guess how much does it matter on the organization creating that space or how much is it on the individual to just be like “Hey, I’m gonna start it with maybe my circle of my peers or something like that?”

Alex: I feel like it definitely starts with the organization or maybe not necessarily the organization, but going back to leaders. Opening up that door of allowing people to be authentically themselves and going back to what I was saying about if I share other people, will share. Having a leader that shares themselves and my leader, Twyla, she is very open and shares about her daughter, and her husband, and her interest. Her running.

John: And her running. She was a guest on the podcast as well.

Alex: Yeah. Yeah. And so, she opens that door for the rest of the team to talk about themselves. And every meeting that we have, we talk about what we did over the weekend. Or, I mean, the one that we had yesterday, we all talked about how our Christmas was or what we got for Christmas, what we did for New Year’s, all of that. So yeah, I feel like it starts with leaders for sure.

John: And it’s important that it doesn’t have to be CEO leader. It’s the midlevel leader or the whatever level leader, like within your little group can be just awesome. You know, it doesn’t have to be organization wide necessarily ’cause it can go both ways on that. Like the CEO could be super sharing and really open and then a mid-level manager not and then everything below that gets ruined for that experience.

Alex: Exactly.

John: So it goes both ways.

Alex: I love listening to what’s going on in people’s lives. Like if they’re willing to share, I love listening to people talk ’cause I love when people like to listen to me talk.

John: Right? Exactly. But it’s so great to hear how it makes some difference.

Alex: Yeah. Absolutely.

John: And I also love that example and that’s something that people can easily take with them that are listening now of how you start a meeting with going around the table with something personal or something that’s a question that peels back a little bit of the professional veneer of what we try to present to the world.

Alex: And I feel like it opens up a level of comfort for the meeting itself as well. It just gets people loose. And I mean, there’s meetings that’s not necessary. It’s not necessary to start a meeting with talking about what your favorite color is or what you did over the weekend.

There’s definitely meetings that it does not make sense to do that. But for normal team meetings that are recurring that we have this time together every week, let’s like get to know one another a little bit more, get to know our interests. And I mean, it helps us as a team. I feel very connected to my team, and I’m very thankful for that because I’ve been in situations where I don’t feel a connection to anybody on my team. And the team that I have at FreshBooks is like stellar. We’re all very connected and in tune with one another. And I feel like a lot of that has to do with just connecting and taking that extra 5 minutes to get to know one another and talk about what we did over the weekend.

John: And it literally is 5 minutes. I mean, it’s literally 5 minutes.

Alex: Yeah.

John: And if you can’t get your work done ’cause you took 5 minutes to create a connection with another human, then maybe this isn’t your right job.

Alex: Reevaluate.

John: You got bigger problems.

Alex: Yeah.

John: But the benefits from taking that 5 minutes to just take your foot off the gas for a little bit to just have a human connection, the benefits are so much greater and in ongoing.

Alex: Oh, 100%. Yeah. I agree.

John: That’s really cool to hear that that’s going on there. So do you have any words of encouragement, anyone listening that’s like “You know, hey, I have this hobby, but I don’t think anyone cares or it has nothing to do with my job, so why talk about it?”

Alex: It does matter. What you’re doing does matter and people do care. Everybody may not care, but somebody does care. And if you are in a space that you feel like you can’t talk about what you enjoy doing, something that ignites the fire that allows you to do your best work, then maybe you should reevaluate where you’re at. I’ve been there, and I reevaluated, and I’m very happy and content. And I feel like if that is what you want to talk about, but you feel handcuffed or muzzled to do so, then reevaluate and go somewhere that’s gonna allow you to be you.

John: No, I love it. And I mean, and if you’re in a manager level or a leadership position at an organization and listening right now, go ask your people what they do, like what lights them up, you know, because that matters. And like my dream is that organizations, that’s part of your goal setting for the year, is you have your at work goals, but then you have outside of work goals that have nothing to do with work at all. Like I wanna take my kids on two vacations. Okay. Cool. How’s that going? Like we’re halfway through the year in June, where are we at? How many vacations have you done? Well, let’s book ’em. Let’s go. You know? And like making sure that people are living their best life and they’re gonna do their best work.

Alex: Because ultimately when you are able to not only talk about the things that you enjoy doing outside of work, but also do those things outside of work and make time to do those things outside of work that correlates to your performance at work. That correlates to your happiness at work. And whatever energy you put out outside of work and you’re able to talk about it and whatnot, you bring that same energy to work and you’re reignited.

John: I love that. That’s awesome. Such a great word. So perfect. Well, this has been so much fun, Alex, but I feel like it’s only fair since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning of the show that we turn the tables and we make this the first episode of The Alex Miles Podcast. So thanks for having me as a guest. So I’m all yours if you want to ask questions. Fire away.

Alex: Wahaha.

John: I’m all yours. I know. I’m very nervous actually.

Alex: Thanks so much for coming on the show, John Garrett.

John: Hey, it’s my pleasure. Thanks for inviting me. It took 5-1/2 years for us to finally get together.

Alex: Yeah, that’s my first question. What took you so long?

John: Right? Well, I wanted to write a book and that takes a long time.

Alex: No. One of my questions that I have for you is you’ve been in the podcast game for so long. You started with Green Apple and rebranded to What’s Your “And”? And you’re now on 557. What’s been the hardest part of running a podcast and being in this space for as long as you have?

John: The hardest part is getting people to be a guest. You don’t have to be all world something or have this side hustle that makes money or whatever. Like if you have any hobby, or an interest, or anything outside of work, then What’s Your “And”? is for you. It’s your message too, you know. And I feel like so many other podcasts, the host is maybe a bigger ego and it’s about them. And this show is about all of us. And so, if you’re listening now and you have a hobby that you just started 2 weeks ago, let’s talk about it. Like it doesn’t matter. You don’t even have to be good, you know. And so, I feel like it’s me reaching out to people to be like “Hey, do you want to be on?”

They’re like “Me. Really?” “Yes, you, of course you.” Like “Why not you? Like who else?” You know? And so, that’s been the hardest part, has been getting people just to see the value that you are enough. You don’t have to do whatever someone else is doing. Like just be you, and you are enough, and I want you on the show. Yeah. And reach out. Absolutely. Because I mean, there’s only one person I had to be like “Hey, do you have something else” because it was kind of illegal. “Anything else?” And they’re like “Well, no.” And I’m like “Well, let’s talk later then.” You know, that’s the only person I’ve said no. It’s just so fun to see people light up on what they love to do outside of work.

Alex: I love that. Great answer. Okay. So I am a huge gift giver. Going back to just being a socializer, I like just learning about people and being able to gift things that really mean something to somebody and not just giving gifts to give gifts type of thing.

John: Oh, yeah. That’s the worst.

Alex: What is the best gift that you’ve ever been given?

John: Oh, man. Well, having Alex Miles be on the podcast is probably right up there.

Alex: Wrap me up.

John: That’s right up there. I mean, I could get like super deep with life from my parents. I mean, that’s a pretty good gift. I mean, for real, for real, like my parents are saying that whatever college you get into, we’ll figure out a way to make it happen. And then I got into Notre Dame. And I still don’t know how my parents made that, any of that. I mean, I, of course, took the maximum loans I could, but I don’t know how my parents filled in the gaps. I really don’t. But that’s a pretty amazing gift to be able to tell someone that education matters and you busted your butt to get to whatever school you want to go to and then we’ll make it work. That’s a pretty amazing gift for sure.

Alex: I love that.

John: It’s nothing that I can like—

Alex: You’re gonna make me cry.

John: …take with me. But I mean it, it matters, you know. I mean, so many people, they’re like “Well, I’d love to go to this place, but I can’t” or “I’d love to this, but I can’t.” And it’s like to be able to have parents that see like where they came from, which wasn’t necessarily much, to be able to be like, wow, we can really give you a boost is pretty awesome. So that would probably be for real like without getting deep with like life in general. But yeah, that’s a pretty cool one, I think.

Alex: That’s awesome. I love that.

John: Well, thank you so much, Alex, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? You’re awesome and I just appreciate you being a part of this.

Alex: Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun. I’ll be back next week.

John: All right, very good. Awesome. I love it. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Alex in action or maybe connect with her on social media, I’m telling you she’s on there a lot, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are on there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture and don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 555 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work. And in other words, who else are you beyond the job title?

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every weekend. And this week is no different with my guest, Karl Hebenstreit. He’s a principal with Perform & Function in the Bay Area, California. And he’s the author of Nina and the Really, Really Tough Decision and also The How and Why Taking Care of Business with the Enneagram. And now, he’s with me here today. Karl, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on what’s Your “And”?

John: Thank you so much, John. This is really a pleasure.

Karl: Yeah, this is gonna be a blast. Super fun starting out the new year and this is gonna be great. So we have 17 rapid-fire questions though. Get to know Karl out of the gate here. So let’s see how this goes here. I’ll start you with I think an easy one. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Karl: Definitely Star Trek. I love the inclusivity. I love the message. I love the diversity that’s celebrated and the way that all the different “races” are being brought together and explained.

John: Yeah, the world.

Karl: Yes.

John: Yeah.

Karl: Yeah, definitely Star Trek. And it really goes along with one of my favorite actors and Patrick Stewart is just amazing.

John: Okay, there we go. I was gonna ask you do you have a favorite actor or actress. So there we go. Two for one right there on one.

Karl: Yeah. It’s like a Groupon.

John: Yeah. It’s like a Groupon right out of the gate. That’s hilarious. All right. How about your computer, PC or Mac?

Karl: PC.

John: PC. Me too. I’m the same.

Karl: I learned on a Mac in school. I learned on a Mac, but every job that I’ve worked at has been PC since then. You know, the other thing is I’m also an android rather than an iOS, so yeah.

John: No, I’m Android as well. I’m all in on whatever’s not Apple just ’cause I’m not cool enough I think is probably why.

Karl: I’ll join you in that club. Don’t worry.

John: Right, right, right. Would you say you’re more early bird or night owl?

Karl: Early bird.

John: Early bird. Okay.

Karl: I’m disgustingly an early bird. Everyone will tell you that I just jump up and I’m like “Good morning, everyone.”

John: Right. Like go back to sleep and wake us up at a normal time.

Karl: Exactly.

John: I’m a huge ice cream junkie. So ice cream in a cup or in a cone?

Karl: Cone. I wanna be able to eat the packaging. And especially if it’s differently flavored. There’s an amazing gelato place in Palm Springs and they have all these different flavored cones that are just— Like they have chocolate and they have creamsicle-flavored cones. Amazing.

John: Wow!

Karl: Yes.

John: Okay. Totally going to Palm Springs now just for that and then like fly in, fly out. How about do you prefer more hot or cold?

Karl: I run warm, so I prefer cold. Although vacation wise, I prefer hot.

John: Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. How about favorite band or musician?

Karl: Wow. Okay. The first thing that popped into my mind was probably my formative year. So let’s go with Abba.

John: Oh, okay. Yes! There you go. All right. I love it, man.

Karl: Although more recently, I would say more along the— Well, George Michael favorite musician overall, but band— You said band, so I’d have to go with a band.

John: No, that’s fine. That works. No, I’ll take either one. I actually do a music video parody of You Are My Adding Machine from Abba. So it’s a little play on words of see that girl watching me digging my adding machine.

Karl: Dancing Queen. Yes.

John: Yeah. Exactly. So a little bit of nerdiness.

Karl: Yes. The accounting, bringing that in.

John: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Do you have a favorite number?

Karl: 5. My favorite number is 5. My lucky number.

John: Oh, in Episode 555. Look at you, man. This is the universe good coinciding. Yeah. Exactly. Making it happen. How about books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Karl: I want the real thing. I want the actual real book. Yeah. So I can write in it. I can make notes in it. I can fold the pages over like yeah.

John: Okay. I get all up in there.

Karl: Stick it in the bookshelf. Yeah.

John: There you go. How about a favorite Disney character? There’s a million of them, so I’ll take anything animated.

Karl: Wow. Disney character. So Huey, Louie, and Dewey are the nephews of—

John: Oh, yeah!

Karl: Yeah. I love Huey, Louie, and Dewey. Yes. I don’t know why.

John: There you go.

Karl: They have Ducktails and no one probably even knows what that is, but they were so creative and would resolve and solve all the different problems that Scrooge McDuck was getting himself into. Yes.

John: Right. There you go.

Karl: I don’t know if you’ve ever gotten that answer before, but yes.

John: No. No. I forgot all about them. That’s so great. Thank you for the reminder. That’s hilarious. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Karl: Out of the three, I’d probably go with crossword just because it’s closest to Wordle, which you know obviously I’ve fallen into that trap.

John: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Karl: But ultimately, Lego, if Lego is considered a puzzle. I love Legos.

John: Oh, yeah. Okay.

Karl: Yes.

John: Okay.

Karl: I love Legos growing up and I still love the adult Legos now too. Yes.

John: Oh, really? Okay. All right. Yeah, I was definitely a huge— I mean, we had two giant tubs of Legos as kids and you just get all the leftovers of whoever and wherever and, yeah, all that. So yeah, Lego is awesome. How about a favorite color?

Karl: Red. I’d go with a red and probably more of like a darker red. When I was younger, it was probably brighter red. And now, it’s probably more like the burgundies or the Malbecs.

John: The red you can drink.

Karl: The red you can drink. Also the red you can drive. How about like a soul red or a candy apple red? I’d go with that one too.

John: Okay. Okay. All right. How about a least favorite color?

Karl: Oh, wow. Puce. How about Puce?

John: Oh, wow.

Karl: I mean, you could ever do anything with that.

John: Oh, it even sounds terrible.

Karl: Yeah. I don’t know if you could do much with that one. That’s in no one’s color wheel. Yeah.

John: Right. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. Would you say you’re more talk or text?

Karl: Talk.

John: Talk. Yeah, I’m same. It just gets to the point faster. We got three more. Toilet paper roll over or under?

Karl: The right way. Over.

John: There we go.

Karl: I actually saw there was like the original when they went to patents.

John: The patents?

Karl: Yes, it is over. So, yeah.

John: Yeah. No, no, it definitely is. It definitely is. Two more. Do you have a favorite animal? Any animal at all.

Karl: Oh, okay. So if it’s just any animal in the world, I’d have to go with monkeys because monkeys are awesome. But if it’s something that I can have, it’s obviously dogs because of our little pack.

John: A monkey riding a dog. No, no, I’m just kidding.

Karl: And I have a lovely little Chihuahua mix who’s a rescue from Mexico. His name is Turbo.

John: Oh!

Karl: Yeah. So he’s a lovely little monkey dog. Absolutely.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah, exactly. That’s perfect. I love it. I love it. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Karl: Wow. I’m gonna go with freedom on that. My freedom is my favorite thing I have or own ’cause that allows me everything else.

John: Yeah. definitely. I love it. That’s awesome. So let’s talk writing Nina and the Really, Really Tough Decision children’s books are just writing in general, like how did you get started with that? Is it something you did a lot as a kid and then just kept going or—

Karl: I think writing came easily for me just in school, reading and writing papers. And I never sought to write a book. The business book came first and the children’s book came second because, again, I like to talk. I’d rather talk than text, so I’d rather talk than write.

John: Yeah. Right. Right.

Karl: I kept giving presentations at different conferences about this wonderful thing called the Enneagram and how to use it in business. And people kept asking me “When is the book coming out?” And I looked at them like “What are you talking about? What book?” So they were hoping that I was gonna integrate all these things into a book, which actually came really, really easily because I had done all these presentations and all these PowerPoint slides. I was using all the content in business.

So it was just very simple to just create a different chapter for each different concept or intervention. And then a friend of mine co-wrote a children’s book with his mother. And I thought, you know, when I work in organizations, it’s so difficult because we really address challenges at the executive or at the higher levels, and we really don’t pay as much attention to the lower levels or the more entry-level employees.

And if we got people acclimated, and trained, and understanding of diversity of perspective early on not just their career, but in their life, it would make their lives overall much easier. So I decided, let me do a children’s book introducing the concept of the Enneagram. And by default, the people, the parents, the teachers, whoever’s reading the books to the children, would also learn about the concept as well. And that will help be a growth opportunity for them.

John: That’s incredible. And for those listening that aren’t aware, like super quick and dirty CliffNotes version of what an Enneagram.

Karl: For anyone that’s never heard of the Enneagram before, think of it as Myers-Briggs on steroids. So Myers-Briggs is a personality typing instrument, but the Enneagram actually helps you understand what the motivation is behind the behaviors, so all the other instruments out there that measure personality behaviors, but they don’t really tell you or give you insight into what’s the motivation behind that behavior. So if you know that and there are nine, there are nine primary motivators that each human will basically affiliate with one of those more than the others, and if we understand where they’re coming from, we don’t think they’re crazy and we don’t think they’re out to get us because we know exactly what their ultimate reason and purpose.

John: There you go. And if one of ’em is ice cream, that’s definitely mine.

Karl: I think that would apply to all the types.

John: Right? There we go.

Karl: Especially chocolate ice cream.

John: Right? There we go.

Yeah. But that’s so great. And to learn it as a kid, that’s so awesome to think of that ’cause when you sit down to write a children’s book, I mean, do you have to get into the child mind? Did you have to like how to get it to their level? Because you haven’t been presenting it preschools like you did for the business book. So how did you go about that?

Karl: You are absolutely right and I don’t have children of my own other than Turbo, and Chase, and Emmett – the dogs. And you know, they were no help, whatsoever. They gave no feedback. So I don’t know what went over their head or what they integrated or whatever. But you know, we were all children once and we all know people who have children. So I tested it out on friends who are parents and have children, and I tried to make it a very complicated topic as simple as possible. So I really adjusted to the standpoint of how do you make a tough decision, right? Everyone has to make a tough decision and understanding that each of the nine different types will look at decision making differently. And if we can incorporate all of those nine perspectives or views, we’re gonna make the right decision all the time and also honor the diversity that each of our friends has in being able to see something from a different point of view.

John: No, love it, man. That’s awesome. That’s really cool. And the writing, is that something that you’ve shared with coworkers in the past? Like I’m sure ’cause you don’t just write a book overnight, you know. And so, is it something that you’ve shared in the past or is it something that you keep on the down low?

Karl: Funny you should say. I did write the book overnight. The children’s book, I did write overnight.

John: Oh, that’s incredible. Holy cow. Okay, good for you, man.

Karl: Because it was an outgrowth really of the business book which had been written 5 years earlier.

John: Oh, okay. Oh, okay.

Karl: So I took one in one part of it, and I said I can really take this concept and bring it to a level that would be a lot simpler and more easily understood by a wider audience. So yeah, the children’s book was literally written overnight. It took 9 weeks from idea to publication. 9 weeks.

John: That’s incredible. Holy cow. That’s unbelievable, man. There might be a children’s What’s Your “And”? book coming out soon. Maybe tomorrow if I can do it overnight.

Karl: Absolutely. No, I think you totally can. You totally can.

John: That’s awesome, man. I love that. I love that. Well, you also just get out of your own way and just write it.

Karl: Exactly.

John: You know? And then just let it rip. And so, is this something that you’ve shared with coworkers in the past or they know that that side of you?

Karl: They totally know it and they knew it from the business side first because the business book when I wrote that, because that I was using those concepts at work. So my coworkers were really thrilled to support me and be able to look at the concepts. And I have colleagues right now that still tell me that they use the book when they do consulting with other clients as well. So it’s great. It’s great to know that. In fact, the business book is gonna end up with an outgrowth into a training certification on how to use the Enneagram system in organizations for all sorts of different organization development interventions.

John: Congrats, man. That’s awesome.

Karl: Be on the lookout for that. Yeah. That’s coming up next year. Yes.

John: That’s very cool. Very cool. And did you ever come across other people that enjoyed writing or I guess you had plenty of people that enjoyed reading ’cause they wanted to cheer you on along the way, but, you know, those people you just have a different relationship with work-wise than you do everyone else that you work with as well or did it matter much?

Karl: So since I wrote the business book and the children’s book, another one of my colleagues wrote a book on innovation as well, Stephen Kowalski. I don’t think I was his inspiration for doing it. I think he had his own inspiration for that, but yeah. So I see people doing that. I see people who have work that they’re doing and then maybe aren’t able to— if they find something, like some sort of light, or interest, or passion in their work that they can’t do 100% of the time, that they’re able to have that outgrowth into a book that is allowing them to get more to that 100% that they can’t get at work. And I really totally recommend that to anyone that if you’re not getting 100% of your fulfillment at work, but maybe there’s something that you can grow from, to do that. Just go into that.

John: No, I love that. That’s such a great concept. Yeah. I mean, if you’re not getting it at work, you can get it outside of work through your “and.” And if it’s writing something and whether it becomes a New York Times bestseller or wins it an award or anything, doesn’t matter. Like you’re doing it ’cause you enjoy it and you’re making a difference in somebody’s life, and especially yours most importantly.

Karl: Absolutely.

John: So, you know, that’s really why you’re doing it. That’s awesome, man. And so, do you feel like the writing side of you plays into work at all? I mean, I’m sure there’s gotta be some sort of writing or communication that happens in your job. So does that impact that?

Karl: You know, currently in my work and my role through my independent consultancy, I do a lot of executive coaching, which doesn’t really require me to do much work if you wanna look at it that way because if you’re doing all the work as an executive coach, you’re doing it wrong. The coaching should be doing all the work, right? So they should be doing all the writing. They should be doing all the accountability stuff and I just hold them accountable.

And then I do presentations and workshops. So there’s a little bit of writing that goes along in that. But again, it goes back to the I’d rather talk than text. So I would rather talk than write. So it really comes down to that. So yes, the writing can synthesize things and I really do like to have things to be short and sweet, and to the point, and not drawn out. And you’ll actually see that in the books that it’s not repeating the same concept over and over and over again. It’s one and done, and maybe bringing it back if it comes up in an overlap with something else.

John: That’s the thing I found when I was writing my book, was how I presented it had to be different than how you write the book ’cause when you’re on stage in front of an audience, you can adjust accordingly if they like it or don’t. You know, you unlock a secret level that now you know, whatever. But in the book, like if you didn’t like that chapter, I’m not sitting there telling you “Hey, you might wanna skip the next two if you didn’t like that one”, you know, type of thing. You know, the approach and the tone of the book, I guess, had to be a little bit different than when it’s coming from me in person.

And that’s something that until you have a team of people that know what they’re doing from the publisher side, then that’s what really helps on that side of things. Yeah, it’s cool to just flush out new ideas and just be like “Oh, wow. Yeah, okay.” They do sort of go hand in hand with each other like that, which is fantastic. That’s really cool. And then before you got into the writing, were there other hobbies that you had that maybe you shared with at work or was writing kind of the thing that cracked it open?

Karl: So one of the things that’s been throughout my entire life— and I think you touched on it at the beginning when we were talking about favorite musician, or band, or artist— singing has been a huge part of my life from my childhood. And Abba was really big. I grew up in Greece. My mom worked with a Swedish embassy, so that’s where Abba was like really infiltrated my life. And I would always be singing Abba stuff. We had songs and albums from, you know, first song, the last song. I was an only child, so I was the entertainment for the adults on many different things. And that’s when it would happen. And then I ended up joining choirs in middle school and Glee clubs in college, Rutgers Glee Club. And then I joined the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus and I sang with them for over 25 years.

John: Nice.

Karl: Yes. And hoping to go back when my schedule allows. So singing and music are a huge part of my life. And I actually do integrate them in my work because (A) I usually have some sort of song at the beginning of a workshop that aligns with the theme or the topic that we’re gonna be discussing to really generate a different way of creatively thinking about the topic because you’re engaging a different part of your mind. And the other thing was really funny. When I joined Genentech, one of the things that we had to do was we had to introduce ourselves. I think we had like 30 seconds to introduce ourselves.

And I introduced myself. Adele was big back then, so I introduced myself. I sang my introduction, which no one had ever done before. So I did the Hello introduction from Adele, and I explained a little bit about I’m an organization development consultant here to help and work with you. Yeah. So it was really, really well received and never done before or after.

John: Yeah, that’s incredible though ’cause why not? You know, like why not? And everyone remembers you. Oh, was that the singing guy? It’s less and less of the organizational development side of you. It’s more of the “and” side of you.

Karl: It’s the “and.”

John: And also too, how much singing, just those stories of it played out from when you were a kid all the way through to today and all the different jobs you had, and school, and all these different things that you did? Music and singing was there all along. That’s really important to remember that your skillsets change, your job changes, your title changes, the logo of the company you’re with changes, but the “and” is always, always, always there.

Karl: Exactly.

John: And that’s so cool to hear, man. That’s great. How much do you feel like it’s on an organization to encourage people to share that side of them or how much is it on the individual to just “Hey, I’m gonna sing my intro, I didn’t even ask for permission, I’m doing it”, you know, type of thing?

Karl: So I think the way that I’m always gonna be correct, just like any consultant will always be correct by saying the answer is it depends. It depends. It really depends on the culture of the organization. Like I probably couldn’t get away with doing it at a very, very buttoned-up, conservative organization. And I cleared it with my boss. I said, “You know, I’m new to this organization. What do you think?” She said, “Go for it.” And she had my back. And I think the other thing is really having a great relationship with your boss who has your back and will be looking out for you to make sure that doors are being open for you, that you’re not doing any missteps. Rachel was awesome with that.

John: And that knows that side of you.

Karl: Exactly.

John: You know, that knows your “and.” Like a boss that knows your “and” really matters.

Karl: And supports it and encourages it. Comes to your concerts. You know, bringing a whole group of people together to your concerts. That’s been amazing seeing colleagues come and support me by coming to the different concerts that we gave with the chorus. So to answer your question, it depends, and it’s really up to the person to initiate it. Don’t expect other people to draw that out of you. Go for it and then ask for forgiveness later or, you know, check for it and make sure that it’s gonna work because people don’t know. I mean, how would people know unless you put it out there first?

John: Amen, man. I agree totally. I mean, because we’re so permission-based for some reason, like we whisper in our ear this evil whatever, like you’re gonna get fired if you sing your intro at the—

No, you’re not.

Karl: Then maybe you’re not at the right place. Go somewhere where they want you to sing your intro or they’re encouraging it, and supporting it, and will give you a standing ovation for it. Yes.

John: Right? Yeah. Well, you know, they didn’t say that we could do that. Yeah. But they also didn’t say we couldn’t.

Karl: Exactly.

John: So you know, like maybe no one’s ever thought of it. No one’s ever done it. Like just do it, you know. And as long as you’re not inhibiting your ability or someone else’s ability to get their work done, then it’s fine, you know. Is it illegal or super taboo? Then maybe not. Don’t do that. But otherwise, let it rip. It’s awesome.

Karl: Yeah. Get that creativity out there. Use the outlet.

John: And it brings some emotion and some color.

Karl: And humanity. You’re made human. You’re not just another cog.

John: Exactly. No, no, I love that so much, man. That’s so good. So good. So do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe they have “and” that they are like “Ah, it has nothing to do with my job, so no one’s gonna care”?

Karl: My words of encouragement are if there’s some passion, if there’s some fire inside of you that’s not finding an outlet, give it the outlet, whether it’s gonna be at work or whether it’s gonna be outside of work. Give it that outlet because that’s what’s gonna inspire you, and drive you, and motivate you, and engage you, and allow you to do some of the stuff that may not be as exciting or stuff that you’re that passionate about. And you can get your passion through your “and” and then hopefully be able to integrate it into the less passionate stuff that you do to make that even more passionate too.

John: That’s exactly it right there, man. That’s exactly it. Because when you talk about singing, it’s always, always awesome. When you talk about work, sometimes it’s awesome, but sometimes it’s not.

Karl: Well, there’s some singing that’s pretty bad too, you gotta admit.

John: Well, I mean, but when you talk about singing, it’s great. I mean, I’m not a good singer for some reason. I can play an instrument. I can hear a pitch. I can hear out of tune. And when it comes out of my mouth, it is not good. So I don’t know why that is, but I can play instruments, I can do all that, I love music, but the singing is just not my thing. So there’s definitely bad singing, and I’m right there at the top of the list of that.

Karl: So this is another thing I say. People take personality inventories and say “Oh, you should be a librarian” or “Oh, you should be a salesperson.” Right? And the answer is “Yeah, right. Are you passionate about that? Do you aspire to that or are you gonna put the work in for it?” So someone who may have the “DNA” or personality to be the ideal whatever may not be passionate about it and somebody else that’s really passionate about it will do a far better job at it because they’re in it than the other person that’s naturally inclined to do it. So, go for it. Sing in the shower, sing in the car, sing karaoke.

John: Right? There you go. Yeah. And that’s what I tell people too. What I found from doing so many of these interviews is people wanna give themselves a label or they’re hesitant to rather because they’re like “Well, I don’t get paid to sing or I’m not a whatever.” And it’s like “Yeah, but I enjoy singing.” Well, that takes all the pressure off of being good ’cause it doesn’t even matter if you’re good. You’re doing it for yourself. So that’s awesome, man. Well, this has been so fun, Karl, but I feel like since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning of the show that we can turn the tables here, make this The Karl Hebenstreit Podcast. Thanks for having me on as a guest. I guess I booked myself, so never mind.

Karl: That’s awesome.

John: So what have you got for me?

Karl: All right, John. I know that you have a very strong affinity for dogs. I know you love dogs. They’re a passion of yours. I wanna find out what your favorite dog breed is and why.

John: Oh, wow. Okay. So my current dog is like a terrier mix. I did the DNA test and it came back as Chihuahua, Rottweiler, and then like 80% we have no clue. And I was like I want my money back ’cause this is clearly a terrier mix, but that’s always fun. You know, he’s like 32 pounds, 35 pounds. So he’s a dog, but he’s not like you’re gonna get your shoulder ripped out if he goes running, you know, type of thing. A Springer Spaniel, we had one as a kid as well, and he was super awesome. So I guess if I had to pick a specific breed, probably that, but the terrier mix has grown on me. They’re super fun dogs. They’re quick. They’re smart. They’re fun dogs.

Karl: All dogs are amazing. Absolutely.

John: No, for sure. Unconditional love all the time from dogs. If humans could have 1% of that, it would be an amazing place to be.

Karl: That would be a huge difference from what we have. Absolutely.

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Karl: All right. I’m also interested to find out, you’ve been doing 555 podcast episodes, what “and” have you been inspired to add to your repertoire based on a podcast that you did?

John: Oh, based on a podcast. Okay. Well, my ultimate dream is to have a show kind of like Mike Rowe’s Dirty Jobs where he goes around and does it. So I would fly to the Bay Area, and we would sing and do a children’s book and then do this interview. But also, I would do your “and” with you. And I think that would be a super cool show, just figuring out how to get that out there.

Karl: And paid for.

John: Yeah. And paid for. That would be the biggest part of it.

But you know, just to show the human side to all of us. But you know, I guess yoga might be one that I’ve gotten more into or mindfulness in general from speaking to a couple of people that have been on the podcast. So that might be an example. You know, I’ve picked up a couple of other “ands” just periodically, but not specifically from the podcast. But yeah, probably yoga, or mindfulness, or things along those lines that I wasn’t as open to before or hadn’t really learned much about before. So just being like “Oh, wow, okay, that seems interesting. Let’s learn more about this.” So I would say those.

John: I have one last question if you’re up to it.

Karl: Last one. It’s your show, man. I’m at your mercy.

John: All right, here it goes. What comedian inspired you growing up?

Karl: Ah, wow. So, I mean, as a kid, I grew up in the heyday of Saturday Night Live, so it was Dana Carvey, and Mike Myers, and all those. And then it transitioned into the David Spade, and Chris Farley, and Adam Sandler group. And then Jim Carrey came out within Living Color and all those, and the weigh-ins, and all that. And so, I grew up with watching that and reading Mad Magazine, and Cracked Magazine, and all that. But that’s improv or sketch. That’s different than standup. My first standup that I ever saw, it was a sixth grade slumber party and my older brother had Eddie Murphy Raw, the VHS cassette of Eddie Murphy Raw, which no kid should ever see.

And so, that was the first standup I ever saw, was us sneaking like a group of us at a slumber party watching Eddie Murphy Raw. But then, you know, as I got older, I mean, I’m sure like Seinfeld or Ray Romano and a lot of that was because they had the sitcom, so then you learn about them, and then you find out that they did standup, and then you learn about their standup as well. So, you know, probably early on, it was kind of that clean observational kind of humor and then got into Bob Newhart Hilarious, like some of the older genre, you know, super funny.

Karl: So really all across, all the different genres.

John: Yeah. I mean, you know, like Steve Martin, amazing. No one specific person. I guess just kind of like observational humor, I guess. Like nothing with an agenda. Like it was never anyone that has an agenda of I’m trying to get you to believe what I run. No, no. It’s more of like isn’t life funny and look at that or look at this and be like “Ah, I never thought about it that way” or whatever, you know, type of thing. So, those sort of things.

Karl: And we definitely need more of that. We need tons more of that to help us really understand, and appreciate life, and just get all the differences that are out there.

John: It’s a philosophy I feel like. They’re philosophers. As a comedian, you look at the world through a different lens, and you bring other people into your picture, and then you start to now see the picture that’s in my mind.

Karl: So you just described the Enneagram by the way. So you look at the world through a different lens, and you’re trying to bring them into yours as well as you understanding what their lenses are too.

John: Yeah, because I have to also meet you where you’re at.

Karl: Exactly.

John: Wow. Awesome. Okay, very cool. I’ll still start with the children’s book because that’s probably best for me.

Karl: I totally agree with that. And I think the other key thing that I would impart on people is the Platinum Rule versus the Golden Rule. So treat others the way that they want to be treated. So I think that’s one of the biggest learnings that people need to really tap into because there’s been so much emphasis on the Golden Rule, which is very me focused as opposed to other focused. And everyone doesn’t see the world the way that you do. And everyone doesn’t like ice cream or the same flavor of ice cream.

John: And those people are terrorists. Those are terrorists. No. No. I’m kidding.

Karl: On the no-fly list. Yes.

John: Exactly. That’s awesome. Well, no. Well, thank you so much, Karl, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This was really, really fun.

Karl: Oh, I had a blast. Thank you so much for having me, John.

John: Absolutely. And everyone listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Karl in action or maybe be sure to check out his books or connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click the big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. Thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 553 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work. It’s the answer to the question of who else are you besides the job.

And if you like what the show’s about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And’? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Melissa Romo. She’s the VP of Global Marketing at Sage and the author of the upcoming book, Your Resource is Human: How Empathetic Leadership Can Help Remote Teams Rise Above. It’s available for pre-order right now on Amazon. And now, she’s with me here today. Melissa, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Melissa: I’m so glad to be here, John. Thanks for inviting me.

John: Oh, this is gonna be a blast. I’m so excited. We met several years ago when I was keynoting a lot of the Sage user conferences. I knew you were writing the fiction books, but now to have the business leadership book as well is pretty awesome. So I’m excited.

Melissa: Yeah, I’m excited. It’s a completely different animal, a business book versus a novel. One thing I learned is business books require citations. And I have a 10-paged bibliography with 150 citations because you can’t make stuff up when you write a nonfiction book.

John: That’s true.

Melissa: You have to actually be factually correct. It really made me miss novel writing because, novel writing, you can just make it up.

John: You just make it up. Just make it up. And speaking of making it up, I got 17 rapid-fire questions for you, so you could just make ’em up. I’m ready. Here we go. Just make up the answers. All right. First one, favorite color?

Melissa: Blue.

John: Blue. Solid. Mine too. All right, we can keep going. No, I’m just kidding. Least favorite color.

Melissa: Least favorite color? Yellow.

John: Yellow. Okay. Yeah. Fair. And ooh, this a trick one. As a remote working advocate, talk or text?

Melissa: Oh, text.

John: Okay. All right.

Melissa: You know why? Because emojis are an amazing tool to build connection with people and to express yourself. There’s actually science behind emojis, and I’m a big emoji user. And my team, we’re really addicted to gifts in my team. So we’re on Microsoft Teams. You know, if someone new starts in the team, we say, “Welcome, Bob.” And then like there will be this outpouring of gifts.

John: Everybody waving and all that. Yeah.

Melissa: Everyone’s waving. There’s this like hugs coming, and hearts, flying and all this stuff. And you have to do stuff like that when you’re remote. Well, I know we’ll talk more about that later. But yes, so text, absolutely, because you can express yourself in kind of new and exciting ways.

John: All right. No, I love it. That’s awesome. How about a favorite Disney character?

Melissa: I like the little lobster, Sebastian, in little Mermaid. Is that what he’s in?

John: Yeah.

Melissa: Yeah. His musical number is one of my favorite musical numbers.

John: Excellent choice. I love it. That’s awesome. How about when it comes to puzzles, Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Melissa: Well, so I’m pretty addicted to Wordle. And if I’ve already done the Wordle, I will shift to Sudoku, but I do it on my phone. And you know, it kind of auto fills it in for you. So I try to do the Wordle. I will brag. If I get Wordle in the second guess. It goes on Facebook.

John: There you go. All right. Well, yeah, that seems like a bragging moment. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Melissa: Ryan Reynolds. Ryan, if you’re listening to this, I want you to endorse my book. A video is on the way to your marketing company and to your partners at Deloitte because I think you need me to make The Creative Ladder a success. More to come, everybody.

John: That’s amazing. You never know. You never know.

Melissa: You just never know. You have to put it out there.

John: Yeah, no, you really do. Toilet paper roll over or under?

Melissa: Oh, definitely over. I don’t understand anybody who puts it under. It’s so confusing to me.

John: Right? I think Ryan Reynolds puts it under. Just saying.

Melissa: I would let him do that.

John: All right, fair enough. Fair enough. All right. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Melissa: Oh, Star Wars definitely. I don’t think I’ve ever seen one minute of Star Trek. I don’t even know who the characters are.

John: Wow. Yeah, right. Okay. That works. That works. Your computer, more PC or Mac?

Melissa: Well, Mac. But whenever I know anybody who starts in a corporate job and they throw a temper tantrum because they need a MacBook from the company, the first thing I tell them is that all the corporate software really doesn’t play nice with Mac, and it’s just not worth a headache. So in my job, I love my PC, which is a Dell. And at home, I have a MacBook.

John: All right. How about ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Melissa: Cup definitely. Cones are really messy.

John: Yeah, yeah. No, totally. Do you prefer more hot or cold?

Melissa: I’m a sun seeker and I love the heat, so it’s definitely hot.

John: There you go. How about a favorite band or musician?

Melissa: I’ve been listening to a lot of Lauren Hill lately. Just getting back into the R&B, like the sort of 1990s R&B. I’m kind of into that. So Lauren Hill lately is favorite. And I love Ed Sheeran. Anything by Ed Sheeran, I’ll just listen to over and over again.

John: Yeah, he’s good too. And Ed, if you’re listening, collaborate with Lauren Hill and then Melissa will buy all of the albums.

Melissa: Boy, that’d be a bomb. Yeah.

John: That would be pretty bomb actually. How about a favorite number?

Melissa: Oh, well, I’ll say 11 because that’s the day I was born. I mean, can’t not like the day you were born, right?

John: Yeah. And it’s better than one. It’s two 1s.

Melissa: It’s two 1s. Right. Yeah.

John: That’s a great number. All right. How about when it comes to books for reading or listening, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Melissa: So I really prefer a real book. We even defected angrily from Audible, and I feel like I’m like the only person in the universe who is doing that because I just read an article last week that audiobooks are about to become a bigger revenue generator than all of Hollywood put together. So people are really listening to lots of audiobooks. For me, reading is a very visual activity. I like to look at how the words look on the page. I like to look at how the page look. I like the way books smell.

John: Yeah. The way it’s laid out. Absolutely. It’s an art.

Melissa: Exactly. It’s a very tactile design-centered experience for me. So audio books just don’t tick the box. And when I’m traveling, I will put things on my Kindle. And I have been known to buy a Kindle book that I already own in paper, which drives my husband up a wall, but I just can’t carry around books when I’m traveling. I’m stuck with my Kindle.

John: Gary Goldman has a great joke about how he bought Shawshank Redemption on streaming even though he owned the DVD because he didn’t want to get out bed to put the DVD in the thing. And his brother’s like “Yeah, but it adds up. Like you’re gonna lose all your—” And he goes “It only adds up if you add it up. Like if you don’t add it up, it’s not wasted money. Like just it’s another book.” Like whatever.

Melissa: Yup. I can relate to that. I was laying by the pool in a beautiful poolside Mallorca compound laying by the pool. And I had a book back in my room, which was like maybe like a 5-minute walk. And I just could not leave the poolside because it was an absolute exquisite afternoon. And so, I picked up my phone and I bought the book that was in my hotel room.

John: Love it. Love it. That’s so good.

Melissa: If my husband’s listening, I’m really sorry. I’ll do the dishes.

John: He didn’t know. He didn’t even know. That’s hilarious. Ryan Reynolds said it’s okay, so it’s all good. All right. We got two more. Two more. Favorite toppings on a pizza.

Melissa: So I love pineapple and ham. I love Hawaiian pizza.

John: Oh, okay. Yeah, I do too.

Melissa: I know it’s almost like Marmite. Either love it or hate it, but I think it’s amazing.

John: Yeah, no, I think it’s great. It’s not my go-to, but I’ll take it. Yeah, absolutely. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Melissa: I had an illness a couple years ago, which fortunately I’m past it. I’m healthy and everything’s fine, but I had a little bit of a serious illness going on. And a friend knitted me a scarf out of this fabric that looks like kind of a Tiffany lamp, like all these multicolors and it’s super soft. And I had that on night and day for the entire winter that I was being treated. And it’s still like the thing I pick up. As soon as the weather turns, I pick it up. I have it around my neck all the time. It’s beautiful.

And the most important thing about it is that my friend made it for me at a moment when I really needed her hug. Right? And that was kind of a great hug without being able to be with her. I love it. I love it. And then I would say a close second is this vase that I purchased in Lisbon while I was on a layover on the way to Paris.

John: Oh, okay.

Melissa: So it wasn’t even in the airport shop. I went into town into Lisbon to like a junk shop. And I just thought it was so beautiful with the rooster and these— it has these blue— it’s like hand painted porcelain little things. And so, I just was at a junk shop like waiting for my next flight and I thought “You know what? I’m putting that in my backpack.”

John: And I was gonna say to fly with that is even more impressive. And it wasn’t like you were on the way home. You were still going to somewhere else.

Melissa: No. No. I was in Paris, and we were in an Airbnb for 10 days. And the first thing I did when we unpacked is I went downstairs to the street in Paris and I bought myself a bouquet of ranunculus, which is my favorite flower. And I came back upstairs to the Airbnb, and I popped it into my vase. And my husband’s like “Well, you’re just moving it, aren’t you?” “Like you know I am.” So I’m all about quality of life.

John: That’s true.

Melissa: I need my vase, I need my flowers, I need my book.

John: Yeah. No. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, both of those are cool items that come with really powerful memories, so that’s awesome. So good. So good. So let’s talk writing and all of that. And I’m gonna probably have some PTSD from this, but it’s all good from my experience. But no, I’m kidding. It’s a journey. That’s for sure. And I guess you’ve written both fiction and non-fiction now. So I guess what’s the biggest difference there, I guess, besides the citations?

Melissa: The biggest difference is the novel, the story has to be completely invented. And so, what’s hard about a novel is you have to give yourself permission to lie, right? Because you’re making it up, right? Like none of these things actually happen. You are completely inventing the world. You’re making up their characters. You’re making up their dialog. And when you first start writing a novel, you really feel like you have to stick to like truth and facts. And I was writing a novel, a historical novel based on real history. And so, at the start of the process, I found myself trying to like write characters that I was finding in the history books.

And you know, I would find a character, like a person who was in some of the documentation about the subject I was writing about. And I was like “Oh, I’m gonna use this person and this is gonna be my character. And I’m gonna write exactly what this person said and what I’ve found in the history books.” And so, the release comes when you realize you don’t have to do that, right? And in fact, it’s better if you make it up. And so, what I think is really amazing about novel writing is I personally feel that novels are the most sophisticated, exciting art form that exists because you take just paper and words. So it’s very low tech, right?

You take paper and words. And if you are good enough as a writer, you can really transport your reader to another place, to another time. You can make them feel things. I mean, they do these brain studies when people are reading. And if somebody reads a very sad passage in a book, you can see the brain activity, right, reacting to that. So you are really making people feel things and experiencing things that it’s like virtual reality. It really is. I love orchestras, I love music. But you know, that’s oral. It’s something that comes into our ears and obviously makes us feel things, but it isn’t an out. It doesn’t quite bring us to this point of storytelling, right?

John: Yeah. I mean, they’re so simple, like you said. I mean, it’s paper and ink, and someone’s creativity, and then it moves you. And you know, a symphony is music on that way. But then you need 40 people playing the music and expensive instruments and all of this. You know, the book, it’s you reading it. And each person has their own experience. That was hard for me even with a business book, is I’m not sitting next to you. So it’s like “Hey, if you didn’t like that chapter, you might wanna skip the next one.” You know? I’m not there with you to—

Melissa: Well, you’re not there with them. This is the other thing that I find so exciting about books, is if I had one wish, you know, you always get this question in a trivia game or whatever— If you had one wish, what would it be? My wish would be time travel. Like I want to go back in time. I wanna know what it was like in the 1800s or whatever. On my shelf back here, I have Bram Stoker’s Dracula, right? Now, he wrote Dracula in— I think it was the 1870s. He wrote Dracula.

So you can read Dracula. And you know, he’s in the room with you, right? You’re reading his words. You’re reading his story. And you know, you’re back in the 1870s where he’s telling you the story about this vampire bat in Transylvania. And he’s an Irish writer, so he was writing it in Ireland, right? Telling you a story about Transylvania. And so, you know, for me, historical books are the nearest that I’m ever going to get to time travel. And that’s what’s so exciting for me about writing them and reading them.

John: That’s awesome. And so, have you always been a writer like when you were young and carried it forward or did it come back?

Melissa: No. I always, always, always. I mean, since I was 9 years old, I kept diaries. I wrote really insipid poetry when I was a student.

You know, I have all these like love poems and things like that hopefully no one ever finds them.

John: Ryan Reynolds, if you’re listening, they’re on their way.

Melissa: I love great poetry. I’ve just kept journals forever. And you know, the What’s Your “And”? question I think is really a powerful one for me because when I was 30, I think I was 36 and I was a new mom, I had two little babies— And I’ve been keeping journals now since I was 9 years old, so quarter century of keeping journals. And I had even been drafting a novel for 10 years that I knew I wanted to write. It was about Poland, about the time I lived in Warsaw, Poland when I was working over there. And I’ve been working on it.

But you know, I was in a big job. I was in American Express. I was a marketing director. I had two little babies at home. And there was no light at the end of the tunnel I had too many things— amazing, wonderful things in my life. I had a wonderful husband, wonderful children, wonderful job, no time to write. And I got in a taxi on July 14th, 2009. I will never forget. It was Bastille Day. And I had a beautiful breakfast with my friend who made me the scarf. And we talked about our dreams in life. And I said, “You know, one day, I wanna write a novel.” And then, you know, she’s like “That’s great. I hope you do.”

And then I got in a taxi. And on the way down to American Express’s headquarters in lower Manhattan, the taxi driver wanted to read my palm. And I’m not into all the Voodoo and everything. Like I don’t believe all that stuff. And I was like “All right, whatever.” You know, it’s a nice morning, I’ll go with it. Right? So I stuck my hand through the plexiglass. And then at every stoplight, you know, we stopped at Halston. We stopped at Canal Street. You know, down in Tribeca. Every stoplight, he was reading my palm. He was saying something else about me.

And he said a couple things that, you know, were kind of generic and he could have come up with them not knowing me. And then when we got close to the office, he said, “Oh, this line down at the bottom of your hand leading to your wrist, that says you’re a writer.” And when he said this to me, I thought he’s not saying I’m an artist, he’s not saying I’m creative, he’s saying I am a writer. And it was like this hand of God reached down into that taxi and hit me on the head and said, “What are you doing? Like you need to be writing. Like, you know, it’s all great your PowerPoints and you’re marketing everything, but you need to be writing.” Right?

And I got out of the taxi just stunned that he said that to me, right? And my heart was racing. You feel this moment when everything collides and you feel like you have to make a really important decision. And I ran up to a conference room and I called my husband. And it was, you know, 8:30 in the morning. And I called him at his office. And I was already very emotional. And I said, “I was in this taxi. And he read my palm. And he said I’m a writer. And I have to quit my job.” Right? It all just came flying out of me.

And I knew I would not write if I didn’t step back from my job. I needed something to go away. And it was 2009. So you know, Lehman Brothers had gone out of business. Everyone in the financial markets were being laid off. And it was really risky for both of us. Both of our jobs could have been on the line. And here I am calling him hysterical and saying I need to quit my job to write a novel. And you know, he would’ve been completely within his rights to say “Look, like pull yourself together. Go have a coffee. We’ll find a way for you to write novel.” But he said all— All he said— 3 words— “Go for it.”

John: Nice. Yes.

Melissa: I couldn’t believe I was hearing him. And I was like “Are you sure? Like you really are okay with that? Like this is a big risk for us.” He’s like “Just go do it. It’s clearly really important to you.” So I did. I quit. And this is the thing I want people to know who are listening and thinking about their “and.” When I resigned and I told people I was resigning to write a novel, nobody believed me. Right? Nobody believed me. And the email that said Melissa’s leaving the company to blah, blah blah said she’s gonna spend more time with her family, which is also true, right?

Like of course, I was gonna see a little bit more of my kids and everything, but that was not why I was leaving a very good job at a blue chip company, right? That was not why. But nobody really took me seriously. And that definitely hurt. I was a nobody. But for the most part, I wasn’t taken seriously. And then a weird thing started to happen the last couple of days I was at work before I finally left. People would pull me into their offices and say “You know, I love to dance. I’ve always wanted to dance on stage.”

And then someone else would say “You know, in my spare time, I paint. And I really wish one day I would have a gallery show.” And John, I think probably 10, 12, 15 people told me these stories secretly in hushed tones in their offices behind closed doors. So what that told me was, wow, we are all sitting on something really important to us that we are having a hard time finding ways to devote time to.

And the thing I would tell everyone listening is don’t leave it. Right? That’s why you’re alive. That’s what makes you feel alive. And cut any corners you have to in your life to give a little bit of time to that thing that makes you feel alive. Don’t put it off. I was very lucky that I was able to take a couple of years. And I did write the novel. And the novel did get published. And it is out there. So I kind of proved to everybody that I was gonna do it. The funny thing was I thought once I wrote it, it would be out of my system and I’d sort of go back to a job and be done. Then I drafted four more novels.

John: That’s incredible.

Melissa: I drafted four more novels and now the business book. Yeah. So I’m clearly a writer.

John: Yeah. ‘Cause right now people are like “When’s the next book?” And I’m like “Umm, it’s really hard. It’s really hard.” So, kudos to you. But I love that story so much for so many reasons. One is just the universe telling you— God telling you whatever you wanna say is—And he called you. I am a writer. You’re like I am a writer. Like I’m not a marketer. I’m not, you know, all these other things. I’m a writer. So maybe marketing’s your “and.”

Melissa: Yeah. Exactly.

John: That’s how I look at everyone that I have on the show. Who you really are is the hobby because that’s the thing that’s always with you. When you get promoted at your job, when you go to a different job, you’re still that thing. But then, you know, in the job title changes, the technical skills that you’re using changes, the technology that you use at your job changes. Like all that stuff is always changing, but your “and” or the container of “and”, if you will, is always there. And that’s the eye of the hurricane. That’s your source of identity and confidence and who you are.

So I am a writer and like I love that so much, and then the fact that like people were pulling you aside just quietly and closing the door to their office to tell you what really lights them up. That’s why I created this show because I’m like you shouldn’t have to close the door and say I like to dance. You should tell it. Like everyone should know I love dancing. Like I don’t have to be good at it. I don’t have to make money at it. I don’t have to like be on a show. Like I just like to dance. Like what’s up? And that’s so important to just feeling alive.

Melissa: It is. It is completely important. Yeah. And I hope everyone listening to this takes that to heart and don’t leave it. It is the eye of your hurricane. It is where your soul is. So spend time there. That’s where the richest life is gonna be.

John: It’s so important. And you know, not everyone can obviously quit their job and make it a revenue producing thing, but you can do it on the side. And it doesn’t have to be good. It doesn’t have to be amazing. It’s just I enjoy writing. I don’t need your permission or your judgment. I don’t even care actually because I’m doing it for me, you know.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And you know, the postscript to that decision was ’cause I was very lucky that we could do without my salary for the short term, but I did find out that I can’t only write because I’m somebody who’s very extroverted and I like to be with people, and writing is a very solitary activity, and it just wasn’t enough for me. So a beautiful thing happened in marketing, however, when I was out writing my novel. Content became very important, right?

Like the internet really matured, broadband matured, social media became a big thing. And suddenly, you had companies deciding that they need content operations and they need, guess what? Writers. And so, I went back into marketing as a content strategist for SAP Concur in the UK when I was living there. And it was kind of like, you know, close a door, open a window kind of thing. It’s like here I was back in marketing, but actually writing and doing the thing I loved to do.

And then I got an amazing opportunity at Sage because they called me and said, “Look, we wanna hire somebody to start a global content team. We don’t have a global content team, and we know we need one. You know, we’re a huge Footsie 100 software company, and we need someone to come and coordinate all this content.” And I was really nervous about taking the job ’cause I’d never done a job that big, but it was writing and creating content. And I thought “Wow, this is the jackpot. This is what I love to do. This is my “and” and it’s my job.”

John: Yeah. You’ve been exercising this muscle since you were 9. It’s like I was born for this. Like I’m ready for this.

Melissa: Yeah. So it was a great turn of event. So sometimes your “and” can become part of your daytime career. I mean not always, but sometimes it can. And I was looking for it. I was always looking for a way that writing could be a way I could make a living. I was always looking for it. And my hat is off to anyone who’s a freelance writer who manages to make a living with it because I did try that while I was writing my novel. I mean, I sold maybe two or three stories. I was being paid $40 a story. I mean, nothing, right? And I thought how do people live as writers, you know?

So when content was becoming more important for corporations, I thought “Oh, okay. Well, at least there’s gonna be a paycheck here.” And the first thing I did, John, when I came in and I started a team is I hired three ex-journalists who had lost their jobs because their media companies were going out of business. And I hired them into Sage to write for Sage, and a couple of them are still there.

John: That’s so great. It’s true though. I mean, these outside of work hobbies that you have give us a skillset whether it’s direct like in your case or maybe it’s indirect. The way you think, the way you see things, the way you look at the world, or at the very minimum it humanizes you. You know, I guarantee that people at Amex—Remember the lady that left to write a book? There’s so many other people that have left that company that they do not remember, but you are the lady that left to write a book.

I had a guy remember me 12 years after I left PWC as that’s the guy who did standup at night. And it was like he didn’t remember me for anything else, and my resume was pretty solid. All the hard work I was doing, he didn’t remember ’cause I never actually met him. He was in a different department, on a different floor. Yeah. Just that human side of all of us is so crucial. It’s so crucial in which leads into your book, you know, Your Resource is Human. And I guess how do you bring the human to the remote world?

Melissa: Emojis.

John: Emojis. That’s it. Emojis and gifts. I don’t even know how to say it right.

Melissa: I’m not kidding. I mean, it sounds sort of funny. But you know, it’s what they call the liminal moments in the workday is when you really build relationships. And those can be either in an office when you’re passing each other to water cooler or they can be on Microsoft Teams when you’re chatting back and forth. So, you know, the liminal moments can exist in either place. So you don’t have to be in an office to have them. The only thing you have to have in your mind when you’re working remotely is you have to just be a little bit more intentional, right?

Because in an office, you can sort of accidentally cross paths with someone and just chitchat and whatever. But when you’re at home, you have to sort of get up in the morning and say “You know, I haven’t been in touch with this person in a long time. I haven’t been in touch with that person, or I really wanna have more of a relationship with Jim, or I’m really wondering how Susie’s doing because I know last week was really hard for her.” Right?

So you need to just spend a minute or two in your morning thinking about the people around you in sort of the ecosystem you work in in your company and kind of make yourself a list on a little Post-it note. Like I’m just gonna reach out. I’m just gonna ping this person and just kind of see what’s going on. And you create your liminal moments right there, you know. You create your liminal moments.

John: I love that. Yeah. And it’s not necessarily talking about work. It’s just talking about them and pulling down the veil of who you really are. Yeah, I love that with the gifts and the emojis. It shows your personality. And it shows who you are and that’s awesome. You know, I love that. You know, that’s the human side of all of us, which is great.

Melissa: Most of the time, I’m remote. I mean, it’s been remote for 6 years. Before that, I was running freelance teams who were helping me with my novel and the design of my novel. So for better part of a decade, I’ve been running remote activity and working remotely with people. And so, the book came about because I had tea in Dublin with my good friend Frederique Murphy who’s an incredible author. She’s got a TED Talk. You know, she’s got a podcast. She’s got all these things. Frederique Murphy. Look her up.

She said to me at tea— She said, “Melissa, you have an important voice about leadership and people need to hear it. People need to know how you lead because the way you lead is different. Especially with remote work, there are things you do that support your team that are unusual and are actually making your team a really strong team.” So she kind of nudged me to write this book. And I wrote a book proposal for the idea of the book. And I thought to myself. There was a publisher I was pitching it to.

I’m like there’s no way this publisher is gonna buy this book because there were a bajillion books about remote work coming out. Like every 5 minutes, there was a new book about remote work. And I thought the last thing the world needs is another book about remote work. But to my surprise, the publisher did buy it. And it was the first time I was actually working with a publisher because the novel was self-published.

After blood, sweat, and tears of trying to sell it to a publisher, I published it myself. And the business book is being published by Practical Inspiration Publishing in the UK. And I was completely shocked that they bought it, but they did buy it. And the novel took me 15 years to write beginning to end, and the business book took me 5 months.

John: Wow. Yeah.

Melissa: That’s what happens. And there were 35 interviews, 25 endorsements, 150 citations, 60,000 words to get done in 5 months. And someone at work asked me how did you pull this off while you were still holding down a job, and I sort of joked and I said, “Well, my kids are totally unsupervised to start with. I haven’t seen my husband in like weeks.”

John: One of them has a tattoo on their face now.

The other one is like has a mohawk. It’s like whatever. Like it’s fine. But kudos to you. Like that’s awesome. And everybody listening, you could pre-order the book. Your Resource is Human by Melissa Romo. You could check it out on Amazon right now. And if you’re listening after April, then you can just straight up get it, and you don’t even have to wait.

Melissa: Yeah. April 3rd. It will be out in Kindle and paperback. And I will be recording an audio version. So sometime in December, there will be an audio version out as well because audiobooks we know are about to overtake Hollywood.

John: Right. Exactly. Exactly. No. Well, this has been so much fun, Melissa. I’m so excited to have you be a part of this and kudos to you on all your success, but I feel like I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning of this show. So it’s only fair that I turn the tables and make this The Melissa Romo, Your Resources Human Podcast. And thanks for having me on your first episode. I appreciate it.

Melissa: Of course, John. We really wanna get to know the human side of John Garrett.

John: Oh, boy. Oh, no.

Melissa: Given that we’re recording this 5 days before Christmas, I’m going to ask you a couple of holiday-related questions. So, real tree or fake tree?

John: Yeah, real tree all day. It’s the smell and the quirkiness of it. Like fake trees are too perfect. And I know there’s the nature side of it and you’re not supposed to cut down. I don’t know. If all things equal, a real tree I guess.

Melissa: I’m with you. I’m with you. Sweet potatoes or Brussels sprouts?

John: Oh, sweet potatoes. Anything but Brussels sprouts like pretty much. So like if you would have said Brussel sprouts or, I would have said whatever’s next. Punched in the face, yes, that. And sweet potatoes are also great, so yes that.

Melissa: Yes. Yes. They are great. So, skiing or snowboarding?

John: Snowboarding. There’s too many X, Y, Z axes going on in skiing like your ankles, your knees, your everything. Like in snowboarding, it’s pretty much just make a fist so you don’t break your wrists. And then if things are going weird, just sit down and you’re fine.

Melissa: Okay. You sound experienced at this, John.

John: Well, living in Colorado, I mean, you have to go a handful of times or else you can’t live in Colorado anymore. They actually ask you to move out. I know people that go like 200 times in the winter. Yeah, it’s crazy. But yeah, I’m like, you know what, I feel like four or five times in a year is good.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah, that’s cool. Well, we love mountains. My kid is actually applying to UC Boulder.

John: Oh, okay.

Melissa: He loves the school, loves the school. But also, he’s a huge skier. So yeah, we’re waiting to hear back.

John: Wants to hang out with Deion Sanders. Is that what’s going on now? Yeah, I’m a huge college football fan.

Melissa: Oh, is Deion an alumni there?

John: Well, no, he’s the new college football coach there, so everybody is like excited—

Melissa: Oh, he is. Oh, my gosh.

John: …about wanting to go play football there now.

Melissa: I didn’t know. Wow.

John: So, yeah.

Melissa: That’s huge.

John: So maybe they’ll be good again.

Melissa: That’s huge.

John: Yeah, we’ll see.

Melissa: Yeah. Maybe they’ll be good again. Last one. And in my book, the most important, white chocolate or dark?

John: Oh, boy, this is a tricky one. This is a tricky one. I think I’ll go dark chocolate. I don’t know if I answered properly. But yeah, I think I’m gonna go dark chocolate only ’cause you can also drink it, so it’s more versatile—

Melissa: That’s true.

John: …I feel like.

Melissa: I always lean back on the tannins. I always say “Well, it’s heart healthy. So I can have as much as I want.”

John: Right?

Melissa: Yeah.

John: I’m doing this for myself. This is for health. My doctor said.

Melissa: Right. I need it. So that’s all I got for you, John. So we got to know you.

John: No, no, I appreciate it, Melissa. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This was so great.

Melissa: I had a great time. Thank you, John.

John: Everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Melissa outside of work or her books or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And don’t forget to pre-order the book, Your Resource is Human, on Amazon right now. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture and don’t forget to check out What’s Your “And”? as well. Maybe it’s a buy one get one type of thing. But thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread.

Welcome to Episode 551 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. Like who else are you? And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every weekend. And this week is no different with my guest, Nick Sinclair. He’s the founder of TOA Global out of the Gold Coast in Queensland, Australia. And now, he’s with me here today. Nick, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Nick: Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

John: This is gonna be a blast. I’m so excited for this. It’s gonna be so much fun talking snowboarding. But before we get into it, I got 17 questions that get to know Nick out of the gate. Hope you’re buckled in and ready. This is an easy one, I think. A favorite color.

Nick: Blue. Definitely blue.

John: Yeah. Mine is the same. How about a least favorite color?

Nick: Brown.

John: Brown.

Nick: I mean, definitely brown. Yeah.

John: That is the least of the least favorite colors. It’s by far the worst one that I get on this every time. Are you more talk or text?

Nick: Definitely talk.

John: Definitely talk. Yeah. It just gets things faster I feel like. I don’t know. Most of the time. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Nick: Any of the Australian ones.

John: Okay.

Nick: I love the Aussies going overseas out of the ditch and doing well. So yeah, pretty much any Aussie one that’s made it.

John: That’s fantastic. I love it man. I love it. How about— Ooh, this is a good one. Toilet paper roll, is it over or under?

Nick: Over.

John: Over.

Nick: 100% over.

John: Yeah. Yeah. I wasn’t sure if in Australia it was like the reverse ’cause it’s the southern hemisphere, but yeah. No, no, no, it’s not. How about a favorite movie? Any movie at all of all time.

Nick: Oh, there’s so many of them. The #1 for me is the Lion King though.

John: Oh, really? Okay.

Nick: Yeah. Hakuna matata.

John: I love it, man. That’s great. Wow. So good. Okay. How about when it comes to puzzles? Sudoku, Crossword, or a Jigsaw puzzle?

Nick: None.

John: None.

Nick: Neither.

John: I don’t have time for that. There we go.

Nick: Not my thing.

John: Right? I got a job. That’s a puzzle enough. There you go. Just play Lion King again. Let’s do it. All right. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Nick: I’m gonna answer that again. None. Neither.

John: None. Neither. Okay.

Nick: I’m not a fan of either.

John: Yeah, no, fair enough. Fair enough. This one you have to answer. PC or a Mac?

Nick: Oh, definitely PC. Next question.

John: Right. I don’t get Macs either. Like I’m not even allowed in the Mac store. I don’t think.

Nick: I’m not smart enough to run one.

John: Right? How about more early bird or a night owl?

Nick: Used to be early bird, but now I’m a night owl.

John: Oh, really? Interesting. Normally, it’s the other way around. Okay, good for you. How about ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Nick: Cone. Waffle cone all the way.

John: Waffle cone. You’re even upgrading. Okay. All right. I like that. Fancy. All right. Do you prefer more hot or cold?

Nick: Definitely the cold. Love it. Love the cold.

John: Yeah. As a snowboarder, I figured that would be the case. You never know. In the accounting space, a balance sheet or income statement?

Nick: Balance sheet.

John: Balance sheet. Oh, okay. All right. You can’t hide anything then.

Nick: No.

John: There you go. We’ve got four more. Favorite sports team.

Nick: Ooh. I mean, I’m in Australia, so most probably wouldn’t know about it, but any rugby league team or any Aussie team that’s gonna battle with any other country.

John: Oh, okay. All right. All right. There we go. So rugby mostly then. All right. But who’s your team then?

Nick: Well, in the NRL, it’s called the National Rugby League, it’s the Gold Coast Titan. So it’s the local team. Any team that play in my state, big fan of them.

John: You’re all four. I love it, man. I love it. How about a favorite number?

Nick: 4.

John: Yeah. Is there a reason?

Nick: No. I can’t remember why. I love it. I just love 4.

John: Yeah, no, that’s a unique number. I like it. When it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or the real book?

Nick: The real book. I’m real book all the way.

John: Yeah.

Nick: I read one every 2 weeks.

John: Oh, really? Impressive man. Good for you. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Nick: The favorite thing I have is kids.

John: Kids. Really? Okay. And how old are they?

Nick: 12, 13, and 14.

John: Holy moly. Bang, bang, bang. There you go.

Nick: Yeah.

John: Nice. That’s fun. Very cool. That’s awesome. They keep you busy, I’m sure. Do they come out to the slopes with you?

Nick: Yes.

John: Nice.

Nick: Well they don’t have a choice.

John: They don’t have a choice. Right. That’s the thing. Like when I ask people about their “ands” or when I’m speaking at conferences, I’m like when you say family is not an “and”, it’s what do you do with your family that you drag the kids along to.

Nick: Experiences.

John: That’s exactly it. It’s the snowboarding that I don’t care if they want to or not. I want to and you’re coming. So here we go. Like that’s the “and.”

Nick: Oh, I say they don’t have a choice. I mean, they love going there, but they’d rather be on a beach.

John: Right. Right. You know what? When they’re adults, they can do all the beach they wanna do. And we’ll do the beach on occasion. Don’t worry about it. How’d you get started in snowboarding?

Nick: I didn’t until I was 19 to be honest. So I went to New Zealand with a bunch of my mates. We were 19. We 3 guys, 3 girlfriends. We all went over there. And we went to Queenstown, probably the coolest town in the world, and went snowboarding for a few days, learned it there and just got hooked.

John: That’s very cool. And so, like do you have some like favorite places that you’ve snowboarded or— I mean, I’m sure the one in Australia is probably more that you go to regularly.

Nick: Yeah, Australia’s easier because of winter. But to be honest, Australian snow is no good when you ski overseas.

John: Oh, okay. Okay.

Nick: You know, Japan, Colorado, like the powder and the snow there is phenomenal compared to the ice tracks that we have in Australia.

John: Oh, okay. Got it. Okay. ‘Cause I was gonna say what’s the difference. Yeah.

Nick: Yeah. So Japan is probably my favorite. It’s just crazy. It’s just so good. But yeah, anywhere outside of Australia that I’ve been has been amazing.

John: That’s incredible. That’s too bad. But I mean, I guess you get to practice and then you can appreciate it more.

Nick: You still have fun. It’s just not the level that, you know— We get in Australia, you know, call it 2-3 meters of snow. In Japan, they get that like overnight. They get 20 meters of snow.

John: Right. Right.

Nick: It’s hard to compare. Like it’s just so hard to compare.

John: But like you said, it’s still fun. Yeah. And that’s the thing. Like when I talk to people, it’s like when you’re talking about snowboarding, it’s always awesome whether it’s in Australia on ice tracks or it’s in Japan, or Colorado, or Canada, or whatever. It’s always fun. When you’re talking about work, sometimes it’s fun, but sometimes it’s not. So that’s why it’s cool that the “and” always brings joy. Then that’s awesome to hear and yeah. And you have a trip coming up soon, right?

Nick: In a week’s time, I’ll be going to Big White in Canada for at least 2 to 3 weeks. I’ve got another couple of weeks. I’ve gotta go to our Fort Worth office, so I’ve got 5 weeks away from home. So three to four of them will be in snow too. Definitely already confirmed at Big White. I’ve got accommodation and everything. So a couple of weeks after that, I’ll do some work in place. Maybe Utah. Maybe Colorado.

John: Good for you, man.

Nick: And then find my way back to Fort Worth.

John: Yeah. Well, if you come to Colorado, let me know. I’ll get my snowboard out.

Nick: Will definitely.

John: So that will be great. That’s awesome, man. And I guess do you feel like there’s a skillset from snowboarding, that you are able to bring to work?

Nick: I think it’s definitely focus because if you take your mind off and you wander, it’s easy to hit an edge and then suddenly you’re tumbling down or running into a tree or— Yeah.

John: Right. Or a person.

Nick: Yeah. Taking people out.

John: Right? And that’s in the office. That’s not even on this. No, no. But you’re right. I mean, the focus is totally—At no point during any of our schooling did anyone say, you know, “Hey, go learn how to snowboard. It will give you better focus to be better at your job.” But it clearly does. That’s an excellent one right there. And I would imagine a little bit of patience ’cause you’re not good for a long time.

Nick: Yeah. You’re always learning.

John: Yeah. You’re always learning.

Nick: What am I doing? 22, 23 years now being snowboarding. And you know, there’s still a lot to learn. Like I’m still amateur in many ways.

John: Right. It’s like, man, I’m doing great. And all of a sudden, some 8-year-old kid goes down backwards on one leg and you’re like “What? Like no.”

Nick: Hell. Hell.

John: Right? It’s amazing. But that’s cool, man. And is snowboarding something that you talk about with coworkers or do people know about?

Nick: Yes and no. For, me it’s my way away. It’s the only place you can be with other people, but it’s just you in the mountain. There’s no mobile phone. There’s no technology. So for me, it’s sort of my escape. People know that I love it. I do talk about it probably too much in some ways, but it is my place where I go so people know when I’m away and I’m literally not on technology, which is not often. They’re like he must be on the mountain because he’s not annoying us at work.

John: That’s great. “Hey, Nick, when are you going on that snowboarding trip again? We all collected our money to pay for you to actually go.”

Nick: They’re happy to get rid of me.

John: But there’s so many layers to what you just said. I mean, first of all, that it’s just you in the mountain, which is awesome. So you can quiet your mind. You can just unplug. And then that side of it as well where you’re not on the phone, you’re not on email, you’re not able to respond work. So you’re literally just I can’t do work out here.

And that’s important to have that time to just unplug, like you said.

Nick: Yeah. I think the other part of it is with the mountain, particularly when you haven’t been to a mountain that often or you haven’t been there for a while, you don’t know what’s coming up.

John: Yeah.

Nick: As you know, with a lot of the runs is that suddenly you can turn black, and steep, and heavy. And you know, when I go to the snow fields in summer and I look up and I’m like no way would I go down that.

John: Right.

Nick: But you don’t know. And when you’re going down, it’s too late to pull out and you can’t walk. You’re like you committed. So it’s just like you just gotta buckle up, and you gotta lock in and just go.

John: Yeah. Right? I mean, it’s like we’re going. So we’re either walking down this thing or rolling down this thing or we can go down on the board. So let’s try that one. That’s great, man. And it is cool that you do share that side of you. And I don’t think that there’s too much. I think it only becomes too much if you’re not getting your work done or you’re inhibiting other people’s ability to get their work done, which clearly you’re not as the founder of an organization. You know, that’s not your goal. So, yeah, I think that that matters. It humanizes you, so people appreciate that I would imagine.

Nick: Yeah. 14 Definitely. I think people want to know about people outside of work. And I think it’s not something that people really talk about. But if you really wanna build that connection, you do need to understand that. I think that knowing your “and” is such a key thing.

John: It’s just a little bit below surface level, but not like I don’t even know your whole story, but just like what lights you.

Nick: It’s a good conversation starter. It’s a great way to enter into, I suppose, a more meaningful and deeper connection.

John: No, that’s a great point. And as the founder, like how important do you think it is that people have an “and”, one, but then, two, if they do, to share it?

Nick: This is an interesting one ’cause a good friend of mine who ran a really successful business in New Zealand once said to me— He said, “You know, you’re a boring person. You got nothing else outside of work.” He was quite honest with me. He goes “Nick, you know, all you have is work. And when you sell and you don’t have work, what will you have?”

John: Yeah.

Nick: Because I didn’t necessarily have an “and.” And you know, his name was Phil Richards. He sold a significant software, payroll software. And it hit me. And I’m like “You know what? I really don’t have anything else outside of work.” He actually said to me “You need to be more interesting.”

John: Exactly.

Nick: Which sort of was leading down to you don’t have an “and.” Like I got into triathlons then. But you know, I still do a bit of it, but it’s more— Snowboarding was my thing. I thought about that. I’m like I do need to become a more interesting person and that means different experiences and having a passion that isn’t just work and my family.

John: Right. Yeah. Something for you individually. Man, God bless that guy. He’s my hero. But it’s true like, you know. And do you feel like life and work is different after having an “and” now?

Nick: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I go on a lot of experiences with my family. So we’re lucky in Australia we have holidays every 3 months basically for school. So I’m all about creating experiences. We’re always doing those sorts of things. But again, that was not something for me. So the snow trips that I plan now are really my time. You know, it’s creating a more interesting version of me. It’s refreshing and re-energizing. And so, yeah, I definitely do. I 100% think it’s important. It’s made me a better person in many ways.

John: I love it, man. It’s so cool to hear that it’s not just like some theory that I made up, that it’s legit, real. And it’s not necessarily hard. It’s just not simple I guess or it’s simple, but not easy or whatever. I don’t know. But it’s not rocket science here. It’s just you have to be intentional with making time to do it and having a good friend point it out to you and then being honest with yourself. And how much do you feel like it’s on an organization to create that space for people to share and encourage it or how much is it just on the individual to just jump in and be a part of it?

Nick: To be honest, I think it’s both. I think the company needs— And as you know, if you wanna drive culture, it needs to be led. It does need to be driven by the company. If the company does that, I think the individuals are more open to expressing who they really are. And I think that that is up to the individual to really do that, but they really need that permission and encouragement from the company. I don’t think an individual can do it unless it’s acceptable and I suppose driven as part of the culture.

John: Yeah. They’re like build the sandbox and then everybody can go play inside. You know, these are the lanes. Stay in the lanes. Everything’s cool. ‘Cause we’re so permission-based I feel like, especially in like the professional world where it’s “Well, they didn’t say we could do that.” And I’m like “Well, they didn’t say we couldn’t, so like why don’t we just do it? Like it seems fine, you know.”

And 99.9% of the time, it’s awesome. And you know, leadership’s is like “Ah, we never would have thought of that; cool, let’s do it everywhere; ’cause we’re busy running the company, I’m glad you guys thought of that”, you know, type of thing. You know, it’s never “Oh, I talked about my hobby and then I got fired.” It’s like “What? What are you talking about?” Provided your hobby’s not illegal, you know. It’s like “Okay, well, now we have reason to talk about that.”

Nick: Yeah.

John: That’s super cool, man. And so, I guess do you have any words of encouragement for anybody’s listening that maybe has an “and” that they feel like, well, no one cares ’cause it had nothing to do with my job?

Nick: Yeah. Look, I think, ultimately, just do it. Like I think the more you can get to know people and the culture is one that where people are interested genuinely in people, I think the more winning culture you build. So for me, it’s about just do it. You’ve got nothing to lose and everything to gain.

John: Yeah. I love that, man. It’s so true ’cause it is how business happens. It’s human-to-human interaction here. You have to know each other. It just makes things better.

Nick: Yeah, agree.

John: Yeah, I love that, man. Well, this has been so much fun. And before we hit the slopes together and hang out for a whole day ’cause those chairlift rides aren’t necessarily short, I feel like it’s only fair that we turn the tables and you get to question me now to make sure that you want to hang out. So we’ll make this The Nick Sinclair Podcast. Thanks for having me on as a guest and yeah. So I’m all yours, man. Whatever you got.

Nick: Yeah. Look, I think one question I have, which is— I mean, you obviously have done comedy for a long time. How do you bring humor into the workplace?

John: Oh.

Nick: With knowing boundaries of where you may or may not offend people because obviously certain humor may offend some people. So how do you bring that humor and fun into the workplace without offending people?

John: Yeah. No, that’s a great question ’cause at a comedy club or at a theater, people came for comedy. So if you’re gonna get offended, well, you came. I don’t know why you’re here. But at work, everyone has to be there. I guess I would look at it more as personality. Like how would you bring your personality to work? How would you bring some color to work? How would you bring just something that’s unique? It doesn’t have to be hilarious ’cause like comedy is very different than humor. Like comedy is a laugh every 5 to 10 seconds. Like, you know, bang, bang, bang. Like sharp humor is just is not nearly as sharp I guess.

And a good friend of mine, Andrew Tarvin, he has a great TEDx talk on this and has a book out about it and speaks on it as well. And he and I differ ’cause I don’t think everyone can be funny. And I think that eventually the earth will run into the sun before we’ll be able to teach you how to be funny. You know, there are just some people, you know, the people that you meet where they tell a joke and then they get to the punchline and they forget the punchline. And you’re like “That’s the only part you had to remember. Like why did you— Like the one thing you had to remember and you forgot it.”

So I think I would say just more personality. Like how do you just let more of you out? And then that comes across in the same way as humor because people will smile, you know. And so, just don’t feel so constrained. And then by letting more of you out, I don’t think you’re gonna cross the line of offending people because you’re not trying to be funny or trying to do comedy. You know, you’re just being more you. And on occasion, sure, there are people that just don’t like you, but you can’t control that at all. So just be more you and I think more people will like you. You’ll be more authentic. But also, it’s like a magnet. Like more people wanna be around that and work with that type of thing. So I don’t know if that answers your question or if I dodged it.

Nick: Yeah. No, it does. It does. Another one I’ve got is around accounting firms. I mean, the world I live in, there are two we serve every day. They’re quite pro— I call it professional, but very as much now. But there’s more and more what I call modern accountants coming through. But it’s still a profession that people expect professionalism.

John: Yeah, it’s stodgy.

Nick: Yeah. I’ve noticed, since I talk about snowboarding, I’ve connected with so many more people that do snowboard and we’ve got common interests. How do you bring your “and” into your client relationship and sales process so that you could build common ground? You know, we’re taught how to sell, but we’re not taught about how to bring out ourself and really attract people that are like us.

John: Yeah. And I mean, when I work with organizations to help them implement What’s Your “And”?, just because you’re an accounting firm doesn’t mean you have to act like an accounting firm. Just because you’re a law firm doesn’t mean you have to act like a law firm. Engineering company, you don’t have to— You know, like you don’t have to act like it. You can be whatever you want to be and then “Oh, but I might turn some people off.” Great. They weren’t gonna be your client anyway. They were gonna be huge pain in your butt. So you know, you’d rather find out now and let them know. And so, if I were to take a proposal that you submitted and scratch out your firm’s name from it, can I tell that it’s really a proposal from your firm or is it just the same as all the other proposals that are in the stack?

And you know, if there’s ways that you can maybe in the bio part of it of who’s gonna work on the project, here’s a picture of them on the slopes with their snowboard, and if they don’t pick you because you had a picture of you snowboarding or in your bio you say that you love to snowboard, then they weren’t your client anyway. That’s not the right fit. But I’m gonna tell you that 9 times out of 10, you’re gonna find your fit better that way than have people just reject you because of that. And I feel like more organizations now with the ESG stuff and everything, like they care about how you treat people and that there’s humans here on the other side. That’s a big piece of it, is behind the job titles, a human being. Inside that human is a soul and like what lights that soul up? And it’s not more accounting. That’s not what lights your soul up.

I mean, you’re the founder of an organization and it’s still not that. It’s snowboarding. And so, it’s just bringing more human to it. So maybe it’s the picture, maybe it’s in the bio, maybe it’s going after clients. Like if you love snowboarding, it’s going after snowboard manufacturers, it’s going after snowboard stores, it’s going after the ski resorts. Like then you’re hanging out with the coolest people you know. And you know way more about that than somebody who loves cats. Because when you get down to it, I mean, accountants like to think that they’re all unique, but it’s a commodity. I mean, it’s just not rocket science here. The work isn’t the hard part, and someone down the street can do the same. So you have to differentiate yourself. You have to. And turn some people off so you can turn a bunch of people on.

Nick: Yeah. Love it.

John: And that’s you. I mean, that’s here I am, you know. And I think people gravitate towards that.

Nick: Yeah, I agree. I’m gonna hijack one more question since this is now my podcast.

John: Right.

Nick: This is not your first episode. It’s obviously— It’s 550 something from memory.

John: Yeah. You were 551. Yeah. Yeah.

Nick: 551. So what is the strangest “and” you’ve had or you’ve heard, even if it’s not on an episode, that someone’s told you? What is the strangest one that they’ve told you is their “and”?

John: You know, and all of them are like so cool to me. Even ones that I’ve never heard of, you know, where I’m like “I don’t even know what that is.” Like pickle wall. And I’m like “What?” I had to Google it. I had to be like “What is this?” And it’s like slow tennis with a wiffle ball or something. I don’t know. Like kiteboarding. I was like “All right.” Probably the most unique one that I haven’t had like anyone else that I’ve come across was stained glass. Like a woman in Tennessee who she makes stained glass windows and art pieces.

Nick: Oh, wow.

John: Which is awesome, right? Because it’s like somebody’s gotta make ’em. She just loves doing it. And what’s even cooler about her is she does a lot of bookkeeping work. MB Raimondi is who it was. And she got the art studio as her client after she started there. She started learning, taking lessons there, and whatever. And then now she does like the books for some of the artists as well as the studio. So she got business out of doing her “and”, which is even better. But that’s definitely a unique one that it’s not like you come across that every day type of thing. So that’s definitely a cool one. Well, thank you, Nick, for being a part of this. It was so fun having you be on. What’s Your “And”? So, thanks.

Nick: Thanks for having me. It’s always enjoyable chatting with you.

John: Everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Nick out on the slopes or maybe connect with him on social media, you can go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re in the page, please don’t forget to hit that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture and don’t forget to read the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 549 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work. It’s asking the question who else are you besides your job title.

And really quickly, before we get into the episode, I wanted to plug Michael Puck’s globaldogart.com. Michael was a guest on the podcast. Dog photography was his “and.” And he’s partnering with other dog photographers all over the world to create globaldogart.com where 100% of the proceeds go to Save 1 Million Dogs by 2030. And he says that shows that dogs foster social connections amongst people, promote trusting relationships in business settings, and just pictures of dogs increase our well-being and reduce stress, so check out globaldogart.com and help save some dogs. And get some cool pictures in your office while you’re at it.

And don’t forget to check out the book of What’s Your “And”? at whatsyourand.com. And also, don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest Orumé Agbeyegbe Hays. She’s the CEO of Hays CPA in New York City and was named one of the 25 most powerful women in accounting by CPA Practice Advisor. And now, she’s with me here today. Orumé, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Orumé: Thank you for having me, John. It’s a pleasure to be here.

John: This is gonna be so much fun. But before we jump in here, I have 17 rapid-fire questions. Get to know you on a new level here. So let’s start. I think this is an easy one maybe. A favorite color.

Orumé: Favorite color, well, I’m actually wearing two of my favorite colors today. It’s pink and blue. So that was very easy.

John: Oh, very easy. All right. How about a least favorite color?

Orumé: Least favorite color? I would say maybe gray because it’s kind of bland, you know.

John: Yeah. And that’s the color I’m wearing, so perfect.

Orumé: No. I’m sorry.

John: No, I’m teasing. I’m teasing you. That’s all good. Do you have a favorite Disney character?

Orumé: I don’t have a favorite, but I will say I like the Lion King. Does that count?

John: Oh, yeah.

Orumé: I like all of them. All the characters.

John: All of the characters. Absolutely. No, that’s a great pick. That’s an excellent pick. I’ll take it. How about when it comes to puzzles? Sudoku, Crossword, or a Jigsaw puzzle?

Orumé: Crossword because I used to play Crosswords when I was much younger. I don’t play it as much any longer, but Crosswords. Yeah.

John: All right. I’m impressed. I like it. Are you more of a talker or a texter?

Orumé: Well that one is difficult. It depends on who I’m interacting with, you know. There are some folks who, you know, it’s like I can’t BS on the text any longer. Well, I just get on the phone and get it over with. And then other times, it’s like I’m gonna do the texting. I’m like you don’t wanna face that person. It can be an avoidance and it can also be that is text. That is half and half I’ll say.

John: Half and half. I’ll take it. I’ll take it. Do you have a favorite actor or an actress?

Orumé: My favorite actress right now is Viola Davis ’cause like she is the bomb. She’s really something else. Everything she does is— It’s like she shines. And she’s someone that I look up to.

John: So good for so long too. Absolutely. And that’s a trick question ’cause you have the acting background as well. I was gonna say you, but no, no, it’s all good. How about— ooh, that’s an important one— toilet paper roll, over or under?

Orumé: I do over.

John: Over. Yeah. Yeah.

Orumé: Yeah.

John: Okay. Fair enough. Some people really, really, really, really care. That’s funny.

Orumé: Me, I’m like whatever. It’s like just get it in there. Whatever.

John: As long as it’s there. Exactly. Exactly. How about more Star Wars or Star Trek?

Orumé: Star Trek.

John: Star Trek? Okay.

Orumé: Yeah. Because, again, I had a lot of older brothers and my brothers were into it, so I got into it as well.

John: Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Is your computer more of a PC or a Mac?

Orumé: Well, right now more of a PC, although I am with Mac family. My very first one, I still have my old Mac, which I use sometimes. And then all of my other products are Apple, you know. I got all of the other stuff. So I still use a Mac. But for work, it’s all PC.

John: Sure. So little both. I’m impressed. All right. All right. How about ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Orumé: Well, it depends on if I’m out and about or if I’m at home. If I’m out and about, absolutely it needs to be a cone. If I’m home, then I’ll go with a cup.

John: Yeah, because then it’s extra scoops at home.

Orumé: Exactly.

John: Exactly. I see what’s going on here. I see. I see. How about balance sheet or income statement?

Orumé: Income statement annually. If I’m looking at it, if I wanna do a longer period, then I’ll do the balance sheet.

John: There you go. How about prefer more hot or cold?

Orumé: Hot. I am from Nigeria. It’s tropical. It’s hot all the way. Nothing cold for me. You can see right now I’m drinking my cup of tea. Always something hot. Hot, hot all the way.

John: 70 degrees is cold to you, I’m sure. So it’s like woo.

Orumé: Yes, it is.

John: Yeah. Yeah. That’s impressive. All right. How about a favorite number? Any number at all?

Orumé: 17 because that was the name of my childhood home and it’s not part of any of my password numbers. So don’t anyone try, okay, 17 with anything else. It’s not gonna work.

John: That’s funny. That’s great. That’s so great. Well, since you’re in New York, how about what’s a favorite toppings on a pizza?

Orumé: So pizza, it’s not particularly my cup of tea. But recently, I had some really, really good pizza in Manhattan. I actually met up with a number of CPAs, and we got together, and we had a really good pizza. And so, it was deluxe of everything. So I like mushrooms. I like pepperoni and veggies.

John: Okay. Yeah. Fair enough. And two more. When it comes to books, audiobook, e-Book, or the real book?

Orumé: I like the real book because I just like the feel of paper to like flip the pages over. Any problem is that if you’re traveling or whatever, then you know it’s not as convenient to carry all those books with you. But I find out with like magazine subscriptions, it’s so difficult for me to go and get a subscription online and read it online. So I like to have paper copies of them.

John: The physical copy. Yeah, no, I’m with you on that too. Absolutely. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Orumé: Favorite thing I have or own is actually one of my other “ands.” And I know we’re not getting into this yet, but it’s running like medal. The medal I got from the 2010 marathon that I ran.

John: Wow. And where was it? What marathon?

Orumé: The New York City 2010 Marathon. Yeah. So I love that medal. It’s framed in my living room.

John: That’s awesome. I lived in New York City then, so who knows if I waved at you as you ran by ’cause I was not running. I was probably eating ice cream out of a cone and then going back. Right?

Orumé: We love spectators and supporters. They are the ones who carried the runners through all the time.

John: Yeah. Well, we can jump into running. I mean, that leads right into one of your “ands.” Absolutely. And so, like is running something you did as a kid and then just carried on as an adult or did you get into it later?

Orumé: Well, it’s kind of funny, right? So in school, I actually did it. I ran for the school. I ran 100 meters and 200 meters.

John: Oh, wow.

Orumé: I think it started from when I was really, really young ’cause my parents, my mom would call. She’s like “Which one of the kids are out there?” She will just call your name. And so, you would run through the living room to go meet her ’cause you wanted to get there in time before somebody else or whatever. So I started running and then I ran in school in Nigeria. That’s like secondary school, which is like junior high. And then I forgot about running. I didn’t run for a very long time and relocated to New York. I can’t remember what triggered it. I just started to run again, and I just started, and it was little by little. You know, 3 miles, 5 miles. I had a couple of friends who were like really, really passionate runners, and they were members of a running club, and they asked me to join. And the next thing I know, I’m like training for a marathon. I’m like this is crazy.

John: Right? That’s a lot more than 100 meters. That’s for sure. And so, was the New York City marathon the only marathon you’ve done or have you done others?

Orumé: Yes. That has been my one and only marathon, which is why that medal is so precious to me. However, I’ve done a couple of half marathons. I’ve done about 4 half-marathons. I did the Detroit Half, the Stockton Island Half, and the Brooklyn Half.

John: And I think that those count. So that’s like two more marathons, four halves. I’m giving it to you. We’re gonna round up. The auditor in me says let’s just round it up.

Orumé: Yeah.

John: That’s awesome. Very cool. And so, do you have anything from the running that you feel translates to work at all?

Orumé: Yeah, it’s that endurance. I think when you are running a long distance, you have to like be disciplined and just like know that you have to get to that end point, right? And so, it’s the same thing. Like when I’m going through taxes or working with any deadline, I’m tired, I wanna stop, I’m like “No, I’ve gotta keep going ’cause I’ve got to get to that end point.” And so, I think I bring that endurance from running into practice with work.

John: Yeah, I love it. That’s exactly it. I mean, you know, ’cause you’re exercising that muscle outside of work. And then when it comes time to use that muscle, that endurance muscle, if you will, at work, then you’re like “I’ve done this before. This is not even close to as hard as being on mile 14 of a marathon and being like, oh lord, like I thought we were done and I’m only halfway.”

Orumé: Exactly. You’re like look at the clock and like look at the stock of papers and I’m like “Ah, there’s so much to do. Keep going. Keep going.”

John: Exactly. Yeah, no, I love it. That’s super cool. And I guess also traveling. I know you’ve traveled all over the world. And so, do you have some favorite places that you’ve been?

Orumé: Yes. And I’ll tie a little bit of my running into my travels everywhere I go especially recently within the last 10 years. Every time I travel, one thing that has to be in my suitcase is my trainers, my running sneakers and a pair of running out stuff. And so, I make sure I get in like 2 miles or 3 miles just to like get to know the place where I’m at and get a feel for the local environment where that is a great way to see a new city just by running. Obviously, you can see the city by transportation and all of that stuff, but running is another way to see it. So yeah, I consider myself to be a global citizen.

Growing up, my mom used to take all of her children. My siblings and I, we always traveled away on summer vacation. I grew up in Lagos, Nigeria. So we’re either coming to America or going to London. So I had that travel bug from when I was small. And one of the things I always said is like I wanted to be in a field where I could get paid to travel. So when I applied at some point in time to a flight attendant, I did not make it. I made it through the first round. I didn’t make it through the second round because at that time, flight attendants still used to pull the baggage in the overhead bin.

John: Oh, up in the overhead.

Orumé: And I didn’t want to be doing that. I’m like “No, this isn’t gonna happen.” But anyway, so travel, I’ve been to like so many places. I used to have a map in my room in which I had— It was a world map and I would just check off all the different places I’ve been to. So one interesting place I’ve been to is Austria. I went to Salzburg, and it was like totally blew my mind away. Why? Because when I was small, the musical that everyone gets to watch when I was small, I dunno if you watched it, was Sound of Music.

John: Sound of Music, absolutely.

Orumé: I couldn’t believe that where I was was exactly the way it was in the movie. I was like the most beautiful thing. I said, “You look at a movie and you think it’s all make believe and it’s what—” But they’re like “No, this is real. This is where the Sound of Music was filmed.”

John: That’s so cool. That’s so cool.

Orumé: Oh, well, totally cool. So I did that. Another interesting place I’ve been to is Athens. And one of the places I visited when I was in Athens was I went to the amphitheater. And like you mentioned earlier, I used to be an actress. And one of the plays, we did a lot of Greek tragedy plays when I was—

John: Oh, wow. Yeah

Orumé: So for me to be in Athens and I went to the amphitheater, the acropolis, and it was like, whoa, this again identifying something that I’ve been exposed to in real life to my travel. So I was like I got to the floor, to the main floor of the theater, and lay down there to recite one of my Greek lines.

John: Yes! Yes!

Orumé: You know? People were looking at me as if I was crazy. I’m like I don’t care. I’m actually reciting words from Euripides. I think it was some lines from the Trojan women and I got to recite that. Another interesting place is Ecuador.

John: Oh, wow.

Orumé: There is a place that you get to in Ecuador where you get to straddle and you have one foot on both hemispheres. Yeah, I was like this is so wacky. Right?

John: Right? That’s so fun though. It’s so fun. And I mean, in the Acropolis, I mean, to be able to recite lines that were recited there thousands of years ago and, yes, you’re crazy, but it’s awesome, you know. And so what, you know? But to bring it full circle for you, but also for that theater, like how cool is it for that theater to hear those words again that were spoken there thousands of years ago and now by you? That’s so cool.

Orumé: Exactly. I’m like even if you guys don’t identify with it, I’m like I am living my life right now. This is so—

John: Yes!

Orumé: Yeah, it’s great.

John: That’s so great. And to be able to straddle the equator and all that stuff, like that’s so awesome. And like things that you would never get to do otherwise. And so, do you feel like the traveling at all gives you a skill that you bring to work?

Orumé: Yes. It absolutely does. I look at myself, I think of myself as a global citizen. And when I get to travel and I get to all those different places, I get to meet people from different cultures, different countries, different religions. And it makes me be able to again relate to colleagues, to my clients because nobody ever— I don’t know about you, but I’m sure you don’t interact with just one mode of people, right, so exposed to different cultures, different languages. Even though I don’t recall those languages, but I’ve been in France, I’ve been in Spain, I’ve been in Italy, I can relate to them whether I get with them whether as a client or as a colleague when I was working with other staff members.

So it just makes it easier for me to relate to a wider variety of people instead of just a small, I mean narrow—

John: Which is huge.

Orumé: Yeah.

John: ‘Cause, I mean, how much of that is part of your career versus your technical skills? I mean, that other side of you is maybe even more important to be relatable and all that.

Orumé: Yeah. Because especially, you know, it’s like starting up with my firm. I started from scratch, growing a practice and trying to bring new clients onboard. They need to be able to relate to you. I mean, you need to know that even though just something we might not have— We might have traveled in common or I might be speaking to someone who we’ve been to the same country or visited the same place, whether it’s Puerto Rico, nearby here, or whether it’s Belize, I’ve had a lot of different connections with people like that when we say that “Oh, you’ve traveled there? You were there?” You know, at this rainforest or the other rainforest. And so, those little things, it definitely also helps in a workplace.

John: Absolutely. No, that’s so cool to hear that the whole What’s Your “And”? thing isn’t just I’m making it up in my bubble head. It’s real life, and it really matters, and it makes a huge difference in your work.

Orumé: It does. Recently, I met some CPAs who were from India. And I got to talk about when I went to travel to India. It was one of those wild experiences. A friend of mine invited me to attend a wedding in India. And I went there. And it was the most lavish, lavish wedding ever. But to be able to say to the CPA “Oh, I’ve been to Jaipur, I’ve been to Mumbai and a bunch of other places, I got to ride on an elephant”, I had to share that experience with her. And then to talk about the wedding, immediately she identified with the wedding. And she was like “Yes, this is what they do.” She knew what I was talking about.

John: And it just softens everything. And then the relationship’s just better. You know, the work will get done, but it just gets done better and smoother if you have that relationship there. So awesome. Before you started the firm, you worked somewhere else. How much is it on an organization where you’re not the CEO or maybe as the CEO even to create space for the people that work there to have an “and” and to share it versus how much is it on the individual to just be like “Hey, this is what I do, take it or leave it”?

Orumé: I think it’s really super important. That wasn’t done everywhere where I have worked at. I work primarily in industry. And in one of the international firms where I worked at, they had that culture in which every time a new employee was onboarded, we had a staff meeting to welcome that person in. And that person will share a little bit about their professional life, but always also touch on their personal something that nobody else would know. And so, to help bring that person in immediately so that other staff members, the team, we could begin to relate to that person.

And then weekly, we would have all hands on deck meeting and first to talk about what they got up to over the weekend, who went bowling or whatever. What’s in your head? What else are you doing? Are you acting off stage, off Broadway somewhere? Are you doing a standup comedy somewhere or whatever? So I think, therefore, the employers that had that vibe going on, I noticed that the team were more together versus other employers that I’ve worked for that did not have that culture per se. Of course, you make things work, but folks are not as connected per se.

John: Yeah, no, it’s so true. I mean, it’s just amazing how when you just— I mean, you talking about traveling and running, I mean, but especially traveling like Austria, this is a movie that I watched as a kid, I mean, you were so animated and so alive. And you could hear it in your voice everyone listening, you know. And if this was a tax update podcast, I doubt that you would be as excited and as animated as you were talking about travel, which is totally fine. It’s not a knock on taxes, or you, or anything. It’s just human nature to this is what lights up my soul like on a basic level. And so, it’s like, yeah, find that out about the people around you. I mean, magic happens. It’s awesome.

Orumé: Yeah, I agree. I think we have to fill all the different buckets of life, right? So if you are just filling your professional buckets and just doing all the CPAs and getting all that technical expertise and not getting any other buckets, I think that something after a while is gonna go awry. So it’s better to like fill in all those other buckets of life.

John: Oh, that’s so perfect. So perfect, Orumé. That’s so good. And I guess do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening? Or maybe that’s it. I mean, just make sure that all your buckets are full.

Orumé: Yes. Just fill in all your bucket. I have a girlfriend who does pottery. She just started to like do pottery. It’s just like making things from clay, from scratch. I’m like find your creative— Everybody has something that they can do. You know, find a passion and tap into it. If you’ve been holding back for so long, just let it go. And you know, the good thing is that you can do it in secret if you don’t wanna be judged. And then when you feel comfortable, come out and share it with other people because you’ll be surprised that there might be somebody else who shares the same passion as you do your “and” and you’ll make a connection there and that could take you somewhere else.

John: That’s so great. And yeah, you’re supposed to be bad at it. That’s why it’s a hobby and not your job, you know. And I’ve also found too, if you just change the phrase to I enjoy, I enjoy traveling or I enjoy making pottery, I enjoy running, I didn’t ask you your marathon time, who cares? It doesn’t matter. You ran a marathon. What more do you want from me?

Orumé: If you are there when I finished, you would have thought I was like #1. I was like it doesn’t matter if I was like the last person. I’m like I finished. That was more important.

John: It doesn’t matter. And so, you know, I enjoy blank. I’m doing it for me, you know. I’m not doing it for your approval. I don’t even care if you approve. Actually, it’s better if you don’t. I don’t even care. You know? So I love that. So great, Orumé. So I feel like it’s only fair though since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning of the episode that we turn the tables, make this the first episode of The Orumé Podcast. So I’m all yours and whatever you got for me.

Orumé: Okay, great. So tell me about an interesting place that you have traveled to in Africa.

John: Oh, yeah. So, okay. I mean, my favorite city in the world is Cape Town by far.

Orumé: Oh, nice.

John: Yeah. And going down just south of there is the Cape of Good Hope, which is where the Atlantic Ocean starts to come around Africa and then hits the Indian Ocean. It’s unbelievably powerful. And just to imagine these ships in the 1500s or whatever coming around that with no GPS, no cellphones, no computers, I mean just unbelievable. I mean, just crazy, crazy. And then there’s also baboons just running around wild, which makes me laugh hysterically. I don’t know why. It turns me into like a 6-year-old kid. And so, their red butts like running everywhere. So like that was really cool. And again, one of those things where you read about it as a kid and then you go and you’re like “No! This isn’t even close to what you told me. This is crazy. Like this is unbelievably crazy.” So that’s a pretty cool place.

Orumé: That’s awesome. So I have been there. I have been to South Africa. I have been to Cape Town. And I did climb the Tabletop Mountain when I was there.

John: Yeah. Tabletop Mountain right there. Yeah. Oh, you climbed it. Oh, wow. I did the cable car. I paid 20 bucks or whatever. I was like “Yeah, I’m gonna ride up.” And then I waved probably at you as you were hiking and like what I was supposed to probably do, but—

Orumé: So keeping the theme with Africa, what would you say an African Dish that you’ve enjoyed, either an African dish or African music that you like?

John: So I did a safari in Kenya in Masai Mara. And it was really funny ’cause they kept serving us Western meals. And I’m like “Yo! I’m in the middle of Kenya, like hook me up with some good stuff.” And I was joking with the Safari driver and I was like “Yeah, but I just wanna get all energized so I can run a marathon like all the Kenyans do.” And he is like “Oh, we don’t all run marathons, just the Masai warrior types.” He’s like “Look at me.” He had a big gut. And he was just like “I don’t run anywhere.” But they made me a traditional meal and ugali. I thought it was great. It was like a white cornmeal, I guess sort of. Kind of like mashed potatoes, but kind of cornmeal.

And man, that that will fill you up quickly. And it was that with some greens and then some beef, but the ugali was definitely a unique thing that I hadn’t had before. They were all like “You liked it? Really?” And I was like “Yeah! You should have this on the menu. Why is this not a thing?” And you know, it’s what they served all the workers in the back. And I’m like “Yeah, bring that out. That’s what I want. I’ll go back there and eat it with you.”

John: Exactly.

Orumé: Yeah, I loved it. And it’s not spicy. It’s not like over the top.

John: Oh, really?

Orumé: It was great. Yeah, it was really good, you know. And so, yeah, I enjoyed it for sure.

John: Yeah. A nice one. So I love spicy and not spicy. I love a lot of African food. In Nigeria, we have a cassava mix. It’s called gari with eba and then some like really spicy vegetable soup. But I won’t go into that. I have another question for you. So how many languages do you speak? Any other language apart from English?

Orumé: Yeah. Well, not so much anymore. We lived in the Azores for 2 years when I was in sixth and seventh grade. So I knew Portuguese when I lived there. And then just after that, I took Spanish in high school.

So that ruined all the Portuguese because they’re close, but they’re different. Little bit of Spanish and then like a very tiny bit of Russian I also know, but also Pig Latin in high school I was a professional at, which is where you take the English word, and you take the first syllable and put it at the end, and then put an “ay” at the end of it. Like my name would be Ohnjay. So you just take the J and put it at the end. And I think it was a code that was made up during World War II, so then the Germans couldn’t translate or intercept the English as well. And so, it was just a dumb thing that several of my friends picked up and decided to— especially on the soccer team for some reason. We had that as a thing. But yeah, so the short answer is no. English is pretty much it, but I can hang a little bit with the Spanish and then a very tiny bit with Russian I guess sort of, but not really. I mean, there’s Google Translate app. Thank goodness.

Orumé: I know. Well, that we can all cheat. But before we go Google Translate, I do know something.

John: Yeah. So I’m impressed by someone like you. I mean, what are you? 5 languages I’m guessing?

Orumé: No. I wish. I used to live in Miami. When I was in Miami I used to get so frustrated ’cause everybody around me would speak Spanish. So I went to the library, tried to get some books. And this was back in the ’90s. I tried to get some tapes and whatever. And I just couldn’t pick it up. I was like this is not working, so I gave up. But when I was much younger, I used to speak French. I took French classes. And I used to write in French. And now, I can hardly put two sentences together because, like you said, if you don’t use it, you lose it. You lose the skill.

John: Exactly. Well, that’s awesome. Well, thank you so much, Orumé, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This was so much fun having you be on the show.

Orumé: Thank you. It’s been my pleasure. Definitely great conversation. Thanks for inviting me.

John: Absolutely. And everyone listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Orumé from around the world or from her running or maybe connect with her own social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to read the book. And thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.