Podcast

Welcome to Episode 537 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, Audible, and a few other websites. All of the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon, and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Angie MacPhee. She’s the managing partner of consulting at Baker Tilly US. And now, she’s with me here today. Angie, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Angie: Thanks, John. Excited to be here.

John: Yeah, this is gonna be so much fun. But before we get into it, I got 17 rapid fire questions. Get to know Angie out of the gate here. So probably an easy one. Let’s start soft here. Favorite color?

Angie: Purple.

John: Purple. Okay.

Angie: Purple is my favorite color. In fact, my office is actually painted purple. That was a COVID adjustment when I got tired of the white walls.

John: Very good. Yeah. Not super popular answer, but it’s coming around. There you go. How about a least favorite color?

Angie: Oh, anything like an army green or like the mustardy yellows. I think it’s like one of the worst decorating colors. It looks awful on me.

John: Right? It is funny to me how like the least favorite color is always something that looks terrible on me. And that’s how the response is usually. How about are you more talk or text?

Angie: Oh, talk. I’d much rather have a phone call. All of my texts have spelling errors even with autocorrect.

John: Okay.

Angie: The phone thinks I’m insane.

John: Right? That’s funny. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Angie: Oh, that’s a good one. Well, I like romcoms, so a few different romcom actresses come to mind. And of course, I’m gonna blank on some names, but like Rachel McAdams. Yeah, I really like her and. So then, of course, Ryan Gosling, ’cause we’re gonna go with the entire Notebook theme there, which is one of my favorite movies.

John: Yeah, totally. How about more heels or flats?

Angie: Before pandemic, it would have been heels. Now, I would definitely say either platforms, or flats, or tennis shoes. There’s amazing amount of dressy tennis shoes nowadays.

John: Yeah, you’re right. They really are. They’re coming out. I mean, for guys too, it’s like all right.

Angie: Oh, guys started. Guys have so many choices. We haven’t caught up, but it’s definitely getting there.

John: Right. Just anything without reflective tape. Like we don’t need to— Like we’re not actually running in these. Like we’re just looking for comfort. I like it. How about a favorite TV show of all time?

Angie: Gilmore Girls for sure. I love Gilmore Girls. I’ve even re-watched all 7 seasons over and over. And I was so excited for the reboot, but I didn’t actually care for it. So it was just this one.

John: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like the reboots aren’t as good for some reason. I don’t know if we’ve changed or if they’re just getting lazy, but yeah, reboot’s not always— Yeah.

Angie: Agreed.

John: It’s not good. How about when it comes to puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzle?

Angie: Jigsaw.

John: Jigsaw. Yeah. The picture.

Angie: I also do like Sudoku if I can say it correctly. I’m not a good crossword puzzle, but I do the New York Times Word, the word one where you pick the letters, can’t even think of what it’s called right now. I do that one every day. I like that one.

John: Nice. Okay. How about more Star Wars or Star Trek?

Angie: Star Wars.

John: There you go. Yeah, that was a quick one. All right. your computer, a PC or a Mac?

Angie: PC.

John: PC. Yeah, me too.

Angie: Although my mobile devices are all Apple.

John: Yeah, everything else Mac, right? That’s funny. How about ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Angie: Ooh, both. If I have more than one scoop, I would prefer it in a cup, you know, ’cause otherwise it drips on to the cone, but I actually really do like the traditional sugar cones.

John: Yeah. Oh, yeah. The old school sugar cones. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Prefer more hot or cold?

Angie: Probably I would be like one of the Goldilocks where I’d say the middle. I don’t like it to be super cold even though I live in Colorado. And I don’t like it super hot either. But if I have to pick one, I’d prefer like ’80s or ’90s versus 15 or 10 degrees.

John: Yeah. Down the middle. I’ll let you slide. I’ll let you slide. We’re good on that. #since you have the accounting background, balance sheet or income statement?

Angie: Income statement.

John: Oh, there it is. Just show me the numbers. Boom. How about a favorite sports team?

Angie: Broncos. Born and raised a Bronco fan.

John: There you go. You’re a Colorado native through and through. There it is. All right, we got four more.

Do you have a favorite number?

Angie: 22. So, 22 is a lucky number for both my husband and I.

John: Oh, okay. So, perfect. Yeah, that is a lucky number. So, that’s great. There you go. How about books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Angie: e-Book. I actually was very early adopter, not because I’m a technology adopter, but because my husband is and he bought me the very first Kindle, but he brought it because he was tired of my carryon bag for our vacations weighing so much ’cause I would bring 6 or 7 books. So I read a lot of books. So I actually really enjoy the electronic now. It makes my bag a lot lighter.

John: Yeah, exactly. That’s hilarious. That’s really, really funny. We got two more. Cheeseburger or pizza?

Angie: Neither.

John: Neither. Solid. That counts.

Angie: No. I love say chips and dip. I love like chips with guacamole or spinach and artichoke dips, etc. I’m not a big hamburger or pizza fan, but I think it’s also ’cause I don’t really like cheese.

John: Oh, oh, okay. All right. Yeah. Chips and dip totally counts. I’m one of those where if they keep bringing baskets of chips, it’s like a goldfish. I’m just gonna keep eating them. I’m like get in the way.

Angie: Yeah. I can have an entire meal. And I’ve had entire meals that are just chips ’cause you fill up on it so fast.

John: Now, you’re bragging. No, no, I love it. No, that’s awesome. That will be your “and” next time. Chips connoisseur. And the last one is the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Angie: So I’m not particularly materialistic, but I still have my teddy bear from when I was 3.

John: Oh, wow.

Angie: So that’s probably my favorite possession. And it’s moved with me throughout multiple houses, apartments, etc. as I’ve been an adult.

John: That’s really cool. Yeah. I mean, that you’ve had it this long and that means so much, you know, so that’s really awesome. Well, let’s get into being a Colorado native and hiking. And I saw your post on LinkedIn, which is how we connected to have you on the show, which I’m super excited about. But how’d you get started hiking or is it just how you get around in western Colorado? Like it’s just what you do.

Angie: I think it’s a fantastic escape that you can do as part of Colorado, right? It doesn’t take that much to be able to go hiking. So you just need a good pair of boots and hydration, way to stay hydrated, and you can hit the trails. So I’ve been doing it for a number of years. And we now do a lot of vacations around it, but I’m excited you picked up that post. That was actually a post for Disconnect Day. So our firm disconnects once a month. And you can use the day to do anything. And so, on that particular one, I had gone hiking. And I find it a great way to actually have creative thinking, to escape a little bit from the traditional computer day Zoom call life.

John: Yeah, no, and I love it. And so, once a month, the firm does this. So, a weekday is off like disconnect and no one’s emailing. And everybody’s doing the same disconnect day. So it’s not like you feel guilty about coming back to 100 emails.

Angie: Exactly.

John: That’s fantastic.

Angie: We do vary them internationally in order to sometimes match up with their bank holidays if we’re talking about the UK. But in the US, we have the same holidays. And we have a holiday and a disconnect Day every single month. So we have a minimum of 12 of ’em, plus the more traditional holidays. And that’s exactly it. You can use disconnect day to go hiking. You can use disconnect day if you wanna catch up. You can use disconnect day for something personal. It’s basically to give you the freedom to have a day away ’cause, you know, I mean you go on vacation, which I love. And I think it’s still really important, but you work extra before you go and you work extra when you get back and sometimes also on vacation. And so, this is a great time that we’re all off together.

John: Yeah, I love it. And that is once a month, you know. That’s so fantastic. And it was also cool how you posted that on LinkedIn. Did you ever like cross your mind of people are gonna judge you for hiking instead of working more type of thing?

Angie: I didn’t actually. I think it’s because of the spirit of what Disconnect Day is. I think it demonstrates that everyone should be doing exactly what they need for that day. So, in that particular day, I used it as a way to recharge. Again, it was a great time to start thinking creatively. I have a lot of great ideas when I’m hiking. I’ve actually come up with areas of our business that we stood up. I did a hike once and came up with the idea for what we call our transformation hub, which is the area of our business that helps us transform as an organization.

So, normally, you do that as your sixth, seventh, eighth, or ninth job on top of, what, everything else. We have an actual group that we’ve put together that focuses on transforming us. And I actually came up with that idea because it was hard to think about when are you gonna allocate the time to work on transformation and innovation. Hey, we should have a whole group that specializes in just doing that. And I joke when I put this group together that “Hey, I thought about it on the way up. I got to the top of the hike and then I called the CEO on the way down and said, ‘Hey, I think we should do this.'” So, that’s one example.

John: Yeah, no, but I mean it’s the fresh air and you’re unplugged. And so, those creative ideas can then float up because you don’t have all the layers of work, work, work that’s what’s right in front of your face on the screen type of thing.

And I love that. And so, do you have any hikes that you’ve done that have been more memorable or some of your favorites?

Angie: I do. So we also will do some hiking for vacations. We’ve done some of the bigger routes. Not Everest. Never gonna do anything like that. But we did Kilimanjaro in 2019. Okay. So, summer of ’19, we hiked Kilimanjaro, which was fantastic. But I will say that it was a unique experience because, as a Colorado native, I didn’t anticipate altitude bothering me, but I did actually have the impact of altitude. So it was a great lesson in and mental fortitude, I suppose, and also setting a goal. You’re gonna achieve that goal. And once you’re on Kili, you can’t really get off of it anyway, but I came away really excited and really impressed with how strong you can be even when you’re faced with some of those challenges like altitude. So that’s probably one of the more memorable ones we did.

John: Yeah, that’s impressive. That’s really cool. That’s not just like going over and just a quick little flat hike. It’s like, no, no Kilimanjaro. It’s like, whoa, wait, what, you know, type of thing. That’s really cool. And I would imagine that what you just said translates to work as far as a skillset that you’re able to use even subconsciously at work that makes you better at your job.

Angie: Absolutely. You know, it’s setting a goal. Certainly, you can say it translates. So you set a goal and you accomplish the goal. You know, every journey toward achieving a goal typically will have different roadblocks, and different things that will come in that will challenge you, so that definitely presented itself in the Kilimanjaro example. So I think a lot of those are applicable to work, and you learn a lot of lessons in what you do outside of work that also translates into work.

John: Yeah. I mean, that’s the thing from doing all the research for my book and for this podcast that’s so cool, is at no point, I’m guessing, in your business school did they tell you to go be a hiker because it will make you better at your job, but it clearly does, you know. And in all of our “ands” in some way, at the very least, it humanizes us and makes us relatable, but it also oftentimes gives us a skill that we bring to work. And I think it’s cool that Baker Tilly is encouraging this Disconnect Day to go do your “and” like go away from the computer, don’t catch up, like go do those things, and we care about you as a human. and these other sides of you.

Angie: Yeah. I 100% agree with that. We announced our purpose this past year of unleash and amplify talent. And part of that was thinking through that you bring more than just your technical skills. So we’re public accounting, so you bring more than just the ability to file a tax return or help your client file a tax return. And you bring more than the audit skills that are required. Or in my case, the group I work with, more than your consulting skills. You bring all kinds of different things to the table and unleashing and amplifying talent. We’re looking at bringing all of that. And I loved that about your book and what your podcast stands for because I think when you know more about someone beyond just their technical abilities, then you’re able to create those better connections.

And especially in today’s world of post lockdown, and we’re not back in offices in the traditional sense, and we don’t plan to be, we’re gonna look beyond the office as an organization. You’ve gotta find those ways to connect. And I was sharing with you when we were talking earlier that we connected during the pandemic through Peloton. So we have a network now of 800 people that will meet and do rides together on Peloton. And so, just finding different ways to connect that you may not have even known about each other I think is fantastic.

John: No, I love it. I love it so much ’cause then you’re known, and you’re seen, and you feel like “Hey, you know, Angie gets me. Yeah. And valued. Yeah.” And it’s so fantastic that you and the firm recognizes that there’s talent outside of work as well that people are bringing it to the table because, on paper, everyone’s passed a CPA exam. Everyone has an accounting degree. Okay. But they’re not the same. They’re not the same. Like, I mean, I’m way not a tax person by a mile. I mean like not at all. You know, I’m one of the cool CPAs.

Angie: I’m not either.

John: Yeah, see, you and I. That’s why we’re the cool ones.

Angie: Yeah.

John: But on paper, you would think that we’re the same as, you know, someone else. We’re totally different and it’s not just within the technical skills side. It’s that our “and” give us a unique perspective and unique skills. And it’s awesome to hear that you’re leaning into that even more and that’s so great.

Angie: It creates a way to connect, I think, as humans as you’re saying. And I know some of the super cool CPAs that are tax professionals that connect with them in many different ways and have a lot of fun with them as well.

John: Right. Exactly. But I can’t connect with him over tax. So we definitely have to connect over “ands” for sure like yeah. But I think that’s so fantastic. And throughout your career, have you always been open about sharing the hiking side of you or what have you or has it been something that’s more recent?

Angie: Well, I didn’t certainly have a social media outlet in earlier parts of my career, but I’ve always been pretty open about that.

I usually talk to people about you find your way to create balance in yourself. I mean, I’m not talking about work-life balance. That’s also extremely important obviously. But I think in your own self, you have to find your way to find balance. And for me, exercise is a way to create that balance. I work out every morning in order to show up more present. And sometimes, that means I go for a walk. And sometimes, that means I go for a run, you know. It just depends on what it is. But it helps to balance me, wake me up, get me ready, and to be very present for the day. So I’ve talked about that pretty openly throughout my career. And I’m not saying exercise is the only way to do that. I always just say everyone finds what that is for them. That helps them to feel that presence needed

John: Feel alive.

Angie: Yup.

John: I mean, that’s the “and.” You’re a consultant and something else. And that’s a container. Maybe it’s hiking today. Maybe tomorrow it’s running. Maybe it’s volunteering at the dog shelter. Maybe it’s painting your office purple. Like whatever it is, that’s a container that can change for whatever it is that lights you up on a deeper level. And yeah, that’s great because, I mean, sometimes people get in their own heads of “Well, you know, they’re gonna judge me if they find out that I like to go hiking.” It’s like I’m gonna judge you as being awesome. You know? Like what do you mean? If they’re judging you negatively, maybe you’re not in the right place, you know, like good Lord.

Angie: And I love that about pursuing the discussion about the “and” and framing it that way. You know, we’ve done various different team building exercises that people have talked about. What’s something that you do that would surprise you? And I found out somebody I’ve worked with for years and really close to loves drag racing. Like I didn’t know that. I thought that’s so cool. You love drag racing and metal, heavy metal, you know. So there’s different things that you learn about each other when you pursue these conversations. And even though I don’t personally enjoy heavy metal, I ride heavy metal bike rides with her now on Peloton because it’s important to her. And she loves it. It energizes her.

John: Right. And that’s the stuff that you’re never gonna forget about somebody, you know. Like it’s what was her job? I don’t know. It’s also replaceable ’cause then someone else is doing that job now or whatever, but not the human side behind the job title, you know. And that’s what’s really important. And it’s so cool to hear that you guys are doing that and that it’s not just me making it up in like a bubble. It’s “No, no, it’s real world that it matters.”

Angie: Yeah. And I love the framework though of how you’re putting it together. And I was telling you I think in one of our opening conversations that I think there’s use for it, especially consulting typically was the road warriors. So, if you actually suggest that the engagement teams pursue their “ands” and/or discuss them, they’re gonna find commonality and that’s gonna mean being on the road wherever you’re traveling to is more fun. Maybe you’re gonna go to a museum together ’cause you love museums, or maybe you’re gonna go visit a humane society because you wanna play with the puppies, or I’m gonna be in Kentucky next week, so there’s great opportunity to check out some of the distilleries. You know, whatever you’re gonna do, you’ll find that commonality with one another so that you’re enjoying your time working even more.

John: Yeah. I love that so much. Enjoying the time working. Sometimes it’s from the work, but sometimes it’s not. But every time, it’s from the human side of all of us. And that’s so fantastic. And how much do you feel like it’s on the organization to create that space to create things that are Disconnect Days or what have you or how much is it on the individual to just maybe do it for themselves?

Angie: We have a saying at Baker Tilly of both and. So I would say this is the both and.

John: There you go.

Angie: I think it’s our responsibility, certainly as an organization and as leadership, to create that and to foster an environment in which we enjoy that, praise that, know those things about one another. But it’s also on us and myself, as an individual, to be open about sharing it, be comfortable finding other people that might wanna go to the Humane Society and play with the puppies. You know, I think so both of us have to come to the table to make it really a powerful part of the organization.

John: I love that both and. That’s awesome. Yeah, that’s exactly it. That’s exactly it. Yeah. And I agree totally ’cause people have to be willing to jump in. But I do love how, you know, setting the tone at the top really helps, I believe, set people at ease to feel like “Oh, it’s not a trap. You know, it’s for real. Angie went hiking on Disconnect Day and posted about it on LinkedIn. Not just did it and then didn’t tell anyone.” That’s kind of like if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around. If a professional has a hobby, but doesn’t share it with anyone, then does it matter? You know? Like do they really have a hobby, you know, type of thing. And it only matters if you’re sharing it. And it makes you better at your job for sure.

Angie: And I posted on LinkedIn, but we encourage people to post it on our internet. So there’s a lot of really great pictures that will be shared on our internet. We’ve also done some fun creative competitions. So I’m part of our senior leadership team. And in, I think it was, December of 2020, as part of the entertainment for the rest of the firm, they sent us all a gingerbread kit.

John: Oh, okay.

Angie: And then they had us make a gingerbread house and then judged it on the most creative one.

John: Oh, no. Oh, no.

Angie: One of the women I work with is extremely creative. So I called her and I said “I need help. How am I going to make an interesting gingerbread house?” And so, she helped me to design it, and I won. I was super excited.

John: Well, congratulations.

Angie: ‘Cause there’s a little competition there obviously.

John: Yeah. Yeah. But it also just humanizes leadership like that. And especially at a firm like Baker Tilly, it’s so big that to humanize someone that I only see an email from or don’t see in 3D type of thing, it’s cool to see that side of them, so good for you. That’s awesome. And bringing in the ringer like that.

Angie: I know.

John: That’s how you get ahead right there.

Angie: Well, and I would say everyone consulted somebody ’cause I don’t know that any of us would have been skilled gingerbread bakers.

John: No, for sure. Right. It would have been a stack of gingerbread cookies and then some icing next to it. You’ll be like “All right, I think I’m done.” But that’s super fun. So do you have any words of encouragement to anyone that might be listening that’s has a hobby, but they feel like no one’s gonna care ’cause it has nothing to do with my job?

Angie: Oh, I think everyone should share their hobbies. I think every hobby can have a connection to your job. If nothing more than it gives you some kind of wonderful value and feeling for yourself, right? You don’t do it if you don’t really like it and it doesn’t mean something to you. So the fact that you do it because you like it and it means something to you is important. And that’s an important part of what you bring to your job, is all of you. I mean, belonging is about bringing your whole self to the job. Not just your technical skills, or your writing skills, or your speaking skills, or your podcast skills. It’s bringing everything to the job. So I would tell them that while you might not find if you have a very, very specific hobby, you may not find someone who does exactly that, but I bet you would find someone who finds it super interesting that you do that.

John: Oh, yeah.

Angie: Or you might find others that have some common interests that it all kind of weaves together and you can have a great conversation about it. And it creates, again, a different point of connecting. So we often, I think, would connect over families, children, where we live, things like that. I think this we’re expanding generationally to be connecting over even more and more. And hobbies are certainly one of those.

John: Yeah. Hobbies. I mean, it transcends generational differences. It transcends the DEIA conversations. It transcends during consulting, I’m in tax, whatever, audit, you know. It transcends all of those things, which has been a really cool and really powerful thing from the consulting work that I’ve done with organizations just to see that be like “Oh, wow, that’s really awesome.” You know, just to see that happen. And it brings people together. And it only brings them together if you’re willing to share. And so, you’re a great example of that. So, so great. Well, I feel like it’s only fair before we wrap this up, since I rudely peppered you with questions, that I turn the tables and we make this the Angie MacPhee podcast, so I’m all yours. Whatever you wanna ask.

Angie: Okay. So what are the top two things you think that I should do to make sure that I bring the What’s Your “And”? into our organization?

John: Oh, wow. Okay. That’s a loaded question. I mean, there’s obviously buy a book for everyone and bring me in to do the implementation programs. But something for you to do, I would say I think it’s encouraging people to share their “and”, I mean after listening to the podcast, so they get the idea of what it is, but encouraging people to share it and asking them, and maybe even starting all staff meetings or like meetings with people, or even coaching, mentoring sessions. Lead with the “and” and then we’ll get to the work stuff after that.

I refer to work as almost like your heart beating. Like you don’t have to think about it. Like you don’t even think about it. It happens. Work’s gonna happen, but what I don’t think about is stretching. So I need to be intentional with that, you know, type of thing. Or it’s not gonna happen and being intentional with and making it first with, you know, what’s your and and how is it going? You know, the coaching, mentoring, it’s “Oh, I know you love to hike. Well, when’s the next hike on your calendar? What was the last one? Tell me about it. You got pictures? Let’s see it.” And then it’s “Oh, wow, you care about me” type of thing. You know, those little things. It’s simple, but not easy, but I would encourage that for sure.

Angie: Yeah. I like the idea of just us incorporating it in the very first of a meeting. So often, we’ll say “Hey, what’d you do for the weekend?” You can even take it to a different level and say “What did you wish you could do for the weekend? What’s your and?” If you ideally have time, hey, are you gonna do that on the next Disconnect Day, etc.?

John: Or it’s a group that’s every week or every month. And It’s a different person. It’s a 3-minute show and tell. Let’s see some pictures of what you love to do outside of work and tell a story about it. And 3 minutes, done. All right, cool. You know? And I had no idea, what, you know, type of things come out of that.

Angie: Okay. You told me you’ve been in Colorado 5 years. What’s your favorite thing now about living in Colorado?

John: No humidity. 100%.

Angie: Yeah.

John: Like it’s the greatest thing ever. Like I thought I hated rain. No, I hate humidity. I grew up Midwest, East Coast, and humidity— and like it just makes cold feel super cold. Like I didn’t realize that. I know humidity in the summer is gross, but humidity in the winter is brutal. And so, that’s what’s really killer. And so, no humidity 100 and the sunshine of course, but no humidity is definitely #1 on my list.

Angie: Yeah. I enjoy not having humidity when I travel. It’s such an adjustment ’cause I’ve lived here my whole life. I’m not as accustomed to it.

John: Totally. Like I walk off the plane and I’m like “Whoa, what is this? Ooh.”

Angie: Sometimes you feel like you’re swimming when you get off—

John: Oh, totally.

Angie: …through the air.

John: Totally. Yeah. Or like I was in Louisiana a little bit ago. Like I was walking through molasses. I was just like “Am I in slow motion?” Like just “Oh, man.” Yeah. No humidity. Definitely.

Angie: That is a definite perk of Colorado. Okay. So I won’t ask 17 rapid questions, but I’ll just ask two quick ones. So what’s the music of your soul?

John: Ooh, the music of my soul. Wow, that is deep. That is really deep. Wow. Music of your soul. All right.

Angie: You can also just say your favorite.

John: Yeah, I know, but I love that so much. I mean, it’s probably some like upbeat alternative rock, you know, like something that is musically probably not very complex, but you can just turn it on any time like a Blink 182, or Killers, or something like that that’s just upbeat, fun, energetic, old school. Green Day, Offspring, you know, like going way back. Just stuff like that that you just put on and be like “yeah, all right” type of thing. So that’s always my go to or like my walk on music type of stuff when I did comedy. Like always stuff like that.

Angie: Excellent. Okay. And your favorite Disney character?

John: Oh, favorite Disney character. That’s a good one. Yeah, I’m typically like a Goofy or a Donald Duck, somebody like that. Like some of the old school characters, but not Mickey ’cause that’s just too whatever. But yeah, probably like Goofy or Donald I’d probably say.

Angie: California or Florida?

John: Oh. So I’ve only been to the one in Florida.

Angie: It’s much bigger.

John: Yeah. So I’ve never been to the one in California, so I’ll have to say the one in Florida, but I’ve been a couple times, but it’s been a while actually since I’ve been there.

Angie: We’re doing an event in Florida that will be the first ever for us, first of a kind. We’re gonna bring all of our managers and above to what we’re calling the Value Architect Summit. So we’re gonna have 2,800 people in one resort. There’s only two towns in all of the US that has resorts large enough to hold those before you end up going to conference centers, but Orlando’s one. So we’ll be on that campus in December.

John: Yeah, that will be really great. Awesome. Well thank you so much, Angie, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This was really, really fun.

Angie: Thank you. I really enjoyed it.

John: Yeah. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Angie from her hikes or connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on that page, please don’t forget to hit the big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And also, check out the book. And thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 535 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their and, those things above and beyond your technical skills, in other words, who else are you beyond your job title.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon, and more importantly changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Alex Drost. He’s the founder and CEO of Connection Builders in Detroit, and the host of The Branch Out podcast. And now, he’s with me here today. Alex, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Alex: John, excited to be here today.

John: This is gonna be so much fun. I’m I’m super jacked for this, but I have 17 rapid fire questions to get to know Alex out of the gate here. You buckled in, ready to go?

Alex: Let’s go.

John: All right. Here we go. Maybe this is an easy one, I think. A favorite color.

Alex: Blue.

John: Blue, solid. How about a least favorite color?

Alex: I don’t know. Maybe like dark brown or something.

John: Oh, yeah. That’s by far the most popular answer here.

Alex: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John: Yeah, yeah, yeah. How about more talk or text?

Alex: Ooh, I definitely like to talk more. Texting is easy, but I’m a talker.

John: I feel like we get to the answers faster if there’s a back and forth. Yeah. Yeah. How about a favorite animal? Any animal at all?

Alex: Dogs for sure.

John: Dog. Okay. All right. That works. Solid. I love it. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Alex: Honestly, I’m not a big movie person, so I honestly can’t give you one.

John: No, that’s actually probably a very healthy answer. Like that’s good for you, man. Good for you. How about a least favorite vegetable?

Alex: Broccoli.

John: Broccoli. Okay. That works.

Alex: I could eat some, but I don’t know. That’s not my type.

John: Yeah. I think it’s too soggy. It’s kind gross. Yeah.

Alex: Exactly.

John: The Golden Corral broccoli. That’s not good. It’s been sitting there too long. It’s like at the buffet. There you go. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Alex: Another one I honestly could not tell you at all.

John: There you go. Right?

Alex: I’ve watched very small bits of each of them. I lived this like weird sheltered life I guess. I never watched movies, but no.

John: Right? No, no, good for you, man. Good for you. How about your computer, PC or a Mac?

Alex: Oh, PC all day. I love my Apple products, but I could not survive on a Mac.

John: Yeah. Right? They’re definitely so different. And people are very opinionated about it. And I don’t really care personally, but I think it’s funny. How about ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Alex: Ooh, a cup and a cone. I like to spoon. I don’t want it to drip all over me, but you can’t go without the cone.

John: There you go. That is the correct answer. That was a trick one and that is the correct answer. Oceans or mountains?

Alex: Mountains for sure. Big bodies of water. I don’t like things that can eat me, so I’m not a fan of that.

John: Right? There you go. Okay. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Alex: Beer. Does beer count?

John: Beer, definitely.

Alex: Craft beer, absolutely. Yeah.

John: Okay. That totally counts. Absolutely. Rain or snow? You’re a Michigan guy. You have both.

Alex: Oh, rain. Rain.

John: Rain? Okay.

Alex: No. Yeah. I skip the snow as much as I can.

John: Okay. Okay. How about a favorite number? Any number.

Alex: 4.

John: 4, is there a reason?

Alex: It’s my birthday and my mother’s birthday. They are both on the 4th.

John: Oh, okay.

Alex: We both have the number.

John: That is pretty awesome. How about a favorite Disney character?

Alex: Mickey, but I feel like that’s a cop out, but Mickey.

John: No. It’s not a cop out. It’s solid. I mean, like how could you go wrong with that one? Absolutely. That’s perfect. Two more. Books. Audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Alex: Audio all day long. Actually, when I was listening to you as you’re doing your intro and you said you reading the book, I’m like hearing it is as I’ve listened to you. I listened to all my books.

John: That’s awesome, man. Well, thank you. No, I appreciate it. Yeah, that was 8 hours to record that over 2 days.

Alex: It’s a lot.

John: It’s an intense process, man. It gets in your head. It’s weird. And luckily, there’s no typos in the book ’cause you have to read it straight out. And I was like “Oh, boy, here we go.” I guess it’s gonna drive me nuts.

Alex: Right?

John: Yeah. Yeah. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Alex: Favorite thing I own. Man, honestly, I’d have to say my computer in some ways. I don’t know if that’s healthy or unhealthy, but I just feel like my whole life revolves around it and like in lots of good and bad ways, so I don’t know if I could live without it. And my bikes would be my close tie there.

John: Okay. Okay. Yeah. Do you have a favorite bike of yours?

Alex: I have three of ’em that I enjoy the most.

John: All right, there we go.

Alex: Trek bikes.

John: Trek. Okay. There you go. And which leads perfectly right into your and. So let’s talk biking and how did you get started with that. Is it something as a kid and you just never stopped?

Alex: Honestly, no. I guess I rode a bike as a kid, but not the way I do today. It was actually in college. And I got into mountain biking and road biking then. Took a few years off of it when I got of college and got into my first job. It actually ties in a lot with kinda your theme of I started a job and got all into my job and then kind of got out of it and found myself wanting something more and got back into it. And since I’ve gotten back into it, I’ve realized how much it makes me a better person. I enjoy it. Mountain biking and road biking.

John: That’s awesome, man. And that is interesting like how when we started work, we put things aside that really bring us joy because we think, wow, we’re not in college anymore. We’re not whatever. We have to be laser focused on the work, and it’s easy to do. I mean, we all do that, you know, with things. And that’s interesting to hear how getting back into it— I was gonna say is there a difference there? And it sounds like it’s obvious.

Alex: No question. I was thinking about this in the back of my mind this morning while I was biking. Knowing that you and I were gonna have this conversation today. And I can look back in my life. And if I look at how much I was biking and spending time engaging that versus where, I guess, my head space was, my mental health, if you will, there’s a very clear correlation to it. And I know the fitness behind it definitely helped with that, but, in general, it’s keeping myself in balance knowing that I’m not spending time doing those non-work related things, that I tend to just throw myself into work too much, and that creates that unhealthy kind of mindset.

John: Yeah. Yeah. And plus, it’s gotta be a little bit meditative on a bike I would imagine. I mean, it’s no different than sitting there cross-legged and meditating, or doing yoga, or whatever. You know, it’s on a bike. It’s the same type of thing.

Alex: For me, biking is there’s two ways that I enjoy biking. When I say road biking, it’s less about what you think about the traditional competitive road biker. I call it my neighborhood cruiser and that’s what I rode this morning where I’m just riding streets kind of cruiser. I did like 20 miles. Still, it’s a hike on that bike.

John: Wow. Yeah. It’s like 90 minutes a little over that I’m biking. It’s listening to a book. It’s thinking. It’s very peaceful and relaxing. And then the other side of biking for me is mountain biking. And what’s so cool about mountain biking for me is, one, it’s extremely good workout. If anyone’s ever mountain biked, it’s much harder than it seems. But your meditative comment, it’s one of the few things I do where my mind has to 100% lockout, right? Like you’ll hit a tree if you’re not paying attention. You have to keep focused. Your mind isn’t wandering thinking about the task of the day, or the stress of life, or what’s next. You’re kind of like there in the moment, in the present. And I think there is a ton of therapy that comes out of that.

John: Yeah. No. I mean, just every second is don’t die. Don’t die. Don’t die. Okay. Don’t die. Don’t die.

Alex: Don’t hit that tree. Yeah. Yeah.

John: Right? Yeah. Don’t smash your face. Don’t smash your face. Like that’s cool, man. And yeah, you have both sides ’cause you’re avid and you’re into it. And that’s really cool. Do you have like a ride that’s one of your favorite over time or some of your favorite memories from riding?

Alex: Yeah. So I guess I’ll share a couple things that jump out to me. So one of my absolute favorite parts of riding is, especially now this time of year where it’s warm enough in the mornings to get up and ride, getting out in 5:36 and going for that 60- to 90-minute ride where it’s— some days, I’m pushing myself harder than others, but just to clear my mind to relax. Some days, I’m listening to a book if I’m riding in the neighborhoods and like an audio book. Or other days, I’m mountain biking. You’re focused into it. My favorite is just having that time. But my favorite single adventure was actually out in your neck of the woods. A number of years ago, I was fortunate enough to go out and ride there. It absolutely kicked my butt. One is a different elevation. They have real hills too, like real hills. It kicked my butt more than I’d like to admit, but it’s just a pure beauty. I’ve never seen sights like that before and that is really cool.

John: That sounds super cool. And do you feel like any of this translates to a skillset for work? I mean, I know the mindfulness and the getting away from thinking about work and overworking is definitely a cool byproduct of that. But do you feel like there’s a skill that comes out of cycling or biking?

Alex: I think a couple things. I can’t necessarily think of a specific skill because of riding my bike. Like the skillset is spinning my legs, right? But what I do know is the discipline, the drive to keep yourself going and doing those things. I think that plays into the workplace. I would say that, you know, that mindfulness element of it I think plays in in a broader sense. Meaning that you show up or I show up as a better version of me by making sure I’m in balance and I’m doing things like that. So I tend to be able to be better. In general, as you’re trying to build relationships with people, having common ground, having something to just talk about—

As I said, I don’t really do anything with sports. I don’t watch sports. I don’t really care. I don’t watch movies. I don’t know Star Wars. I’m many ways. And it’s part of who I am as a person. A lot of the common things that folks will talk about, I don’t have a lot to talk about there oftentimes. Biking is something that I can bring to that conversation. And when I find someone else that mountain bikes, I mean, we’ll like pull off to the side of the room. Where do you ride out? What kind of bike do you have? Right?

John: Exactly. What’s your gear? And like you’re best friends right away.

Alex: Exactly.

John: For no reason.

Alex: Yeah.

John: I mean like no reason other than you mountain bike, so do I. done. And in a business setting, like that’s super cool. You know? Whether business is going to happen or not, it’s just a cool friend, or an ally, or just somebody that you can just sit down and just be cool together, you know, I guess, sort of a thing with no pressure or whatever. It’s just two humans connecting.

Alex: Absolutely. 100%

John: That’s really cool. And so, this is something that you do talk about at work when the time is right sort of a thing. And has it ever crossed your mind like in your career like “Oh, I shouldn’t share something outside of work” ’cause there isn’t a charge code for it or it’s not what we were getting paid to do or whatever?

Alex: I would say earlier in my career and in my kind of first half of my career, I worked in an investment banking. And we did not charge by the hour, but I lived in a very high pressure, high work setting that it was a grind setting. And what I would find myself doing, especially as kind of a younger up and coming, I would be probably too to the point working with clients.

John: Okay.

Alex: Yeah. Yeah. And not build any relationship. And then you’re working through the process and it’s hard to get the clients to engage with you. They feel like they’re dragging their feet and they’re making things harder than they need to be. You start realizing it’s because there wasn’t a relationship built there and there wasn’t any common ground. Before when I felt like, well, I’d be wasting time if I talked about something that wasn’t work related, what I really think and I’ve learned is that when you’re actually finding things to talk about that aren’t work related— and in my instance, you’re talking about biking— it creates a better relationship with whoever you’re working with. And that stronger working relationship makes everything easier. And so, the time lost there comes back twofold over the long run when you get stuff just done better and easier because of it.

John: Yeah, absolutely, man. I couldn’t agree with you more. And it’s something that they don’t really talk about in business school or in any of your education of have human connection ’cause that’s a differentiator right there ’cause, I mean, there’s a lot of professional services organizations. You’re not the only one on the block that does this. And so, someone else can come in and do our accounting, or do our law, or do our investment banking, or do our due diligence kind of work, but I want the ones that get me and know me as a person and we connect on that level ’cause then good luck to anybody else to try to come in and swipe that work ’cause it’s not gonna happen, you know.

Alex: 100%. 100%.

John: And you’re also able to deliver better work because you get it more type of thing. So that’s awesome, man. It’s cool to hear that you experience that too and I’m not just like some crazy guy that wrote a book that’s make believe, you know.

Alex: The relationship is everything. It really is.

John: Right? Yeah. I know. Totally. And I guess how much do you feel like it is on the organization to create a space or to encourage that? You know, you should have an and and you should be sharing your ands versus how much is it on the individual to just be like, you know what, I’ve got my little circle of peers, and I’m just gonna do it from the bottom up sort of thing, and we’ll see what happens?

Alex: I think I’d answer that two ways. For the organization, it matters a lot if you care about having a group of employees that are engaged, and showing up, and being the best versions of themselves, and have a long tenure, and continue to be part of the organization, which those are all like ingredients for growth. So I think, as a leader, it should matter. It should absolutely be top of mind, and it should be something you try to intentionally foster and create. At the same time, I think, as an individual, I would argue it is their responsibility no matter what. Right? And I say that meaning that if you want to be the best version of you, if you wanna show up, you wanna do good work, then you have to find that. You have to do that. It’s always easier said than done. Right? I think that’s almost, in many ways, the whole point of a lot of the work you do, is helping people realize like this is really important. You have to do this. If you really want to have a balanced, happy, and successful life, this is part of it, is being more than just your job. And so, you have to go find that no matter what. And if your organization won’t support it at all, then that’s probably a different question and a different topic of where to go. But I think it falls on both sides. But at the organization level, if you want an engaged team, an engaged culture, you have to invest in it. It’s not just gonna happen.

John: Yeah. No. I agree. ‘Cause, I mean, a lot of people are like “Well, we’ll just let it happen and just let it.” And it’s gonna turn into like a Frankenstein sort of thing where, you know, this group over here is doing one thing that’s really amazing and this group over here is doing something totally different that’s also in me, but they’re not talking and they’re not sharing. It’s like, well, why do we do that everywhere?

Alex: Well, speaking of the organization, just tell your clients that we’re not gonna have a plan really.

John: Right?

Alex: Like we’ll figure it out. However it plays out, like we have to have standards. They’re gonna do it one way. I mean, come on, right? The whole idea. If you wanna be successful, you drive a process, you’re intentional about what you do, and you track it. Right?

John: Exactly.

Alex: How is culture any different? Just because it’s intangible, it’s the same thing. It’s the same approach.

John: Yeah. I mean, it’s like you don’t really need to always be doing. You can just walk around. I mean, like if your significant other is upset, you don’t need to “Okay, so on a 1 to 10, how angry are you?” No, you don’t need to even ask. You just know. It’s like it’s not good. I’m not asking. And it’s the same with your people. Just walk around, and look, and just hear and see. Like does anyone look you in the eye? Does anyone smile? Like is there oxygen? Is there color? Is there animation? Is there emotion mostly? You know? Because corporate has been devoid of emotion for so long. And it’s like bring a little of that in.

Alex: And you I think kind of slightly hinted this at that survey, right? Walker, you don’t have to ask someone, right? And all too often, you’ll see firms, I think organizations they’ll say, that do culture surveys is an example. That’s great. Culture surveys are a great thing to do. Are you doing it to report out so you can say “Look, we’re doing a good job” or are you doing it to learn and hear from people? Like you can ask them to rate it on a scale of 1 to 10. Hopefully, it’s in line with what you’re thinking. And if not, you need to open your eyes and see it. Do that, but like ask it. Learn from people and figure out how to bring those changes in.

John: How can we raise it 1 or 2 points?

Alex: Yes. Yeah, that’s the purpose.

John: People have ideas. Like they really do, and they want these ideas to work, and they wanna work at the place. You know, they care. But if you continually punch them in the mouth, then they’re gonna stop caring. I mean, it’s just human nature.

Alex: That’s it.

John: That’s so true, man. It’s so true. And do you have any like words of encouragement to people listening that are like “Well, you know, I have this and, maybe it’s biking, but it’s has nothing to do with my job” and really no one’s gonna care type of mentality?

Alex: Yeah. I would say if you find yourself there, one, you should care for yourself. You should show up ’cause you wanna be you. If you have something that you’re interested in, you should bring it to work and be willing to talk about it. If you don’t, you should go find something that you can bring to work and talk about. So you are more than that ’cause you wanna be as a whole person, a better person there. And oftentimes, our own doubts and insecurities get in the way of doing what we think, right, of sharing and, well, no one’s gonna care.

I think you’d be surprised how many people actually do care about talking about stuff that’s outside of work. Again, I find that for the most part, interacting with people, especially in this now hybrid world, if you’re in the office a couple days a week, when you’re in there, just go talk to people about non-work stuff because you can Teams with them, and Slack with them, and Zoom with them to figure out the work stuff you need to do. Go and talk to people to build a relationship. How are you doing? What’s going on? Here’s what I did this weekend. What’d you do? It makes such a difference.

John: I love that, man. I love that so much and yeah. ‘Cause, I mean, the work conversation will happen. You know, it’s kinda like your heart beats. Like you don’t have to think about it. It just beats and it’s the same. Work’s gonna happen. It will get done. Like don’t freak out about it. Just ’cause you don’t see somebody do the work doesn’t mean that it’s not getting done. But what doesn’t happen without intention is human connection and conversation about non-work things. Like you just start with that, you know, on a coaching or a mentoring conversation. Start with the and. “You know, I know you loved to mountain bike, where’s the last place you went and what’s the next one you got planned”, you know, type of thing. “Let’s talk about it. Oh, you got a new bike. Let me see the pictures.” Do I mountain bike? Maybe not, but who cares?

Like I want you to light up, you know, type of thing. ‘Cause when people talk about it, they’re alive. When you’re talking about work, sometimes you’re alive, but sometimes you’re not. I mean, let’s be honest, you know. But talking about biking, that’s awesome every time. Like even if you wrecked, it’s still awesome. You know? Like it’s still a great story. I love that, you know. And also, the point that you brought up of you’re doing it for you. I’m not asking you like, you know, “Well, what was your time or how fast did you do this” or whatever. Like it doesn’t matter ’cause you’re doing it for you, you know. And I love that so much. Such great advice.

Alex: It’s came to mind as you were talking the. If you were in a leadership position, if you are in leadership, I think, especially in professional services is a broad term that many people are in some form of a leadership position, right,—

John: Very much.

Alex: …if you have others that are working, even if they’re peers with you, you can stand out and be the leader of the group within you work in. Take that initiative to create that culture, to create that, right? Create that mindset to talk about things. Start the dialog. Start the conversation in saying, you know, if you’re hosting a weekly meeting, or if you are giving someone feedback or review, or doing a check-in with someone that reports to you, start the conversation with something that’s not about work and put yourself in those same shoes. If you’re going in to talk to someone or you’re starting in a meeting and everyone just dives right into work, there someone is like “Ohh.” Right?

John: Right. I hate it, right? Exactly.

Alex: It’s like, yeah, if you can make someone laugh a little bit and then chat with them, it’s a totally different dialog.

John: It’s like inertia that you build up this momentum at the top of the hill. Mountain biking, if you will. And then it’s like, okay, now take all that energy and go. Like now go work in your spreadsheets. And now that you’re smiling and alive, and your eyes aren’t glossed over, look at me bringing it all full circle on accident. But this has been so much fun, Alex, but I feel like since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, it’s only fair that I turn the tables. And you’re a pro, so I don’t even need to let you know, but I’m all yours on, yeah, whatever questions you got for me.

Alex: No. No. I’ve been thinking about this one since I listened to your book. So, 8 hours of recording, right?

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Alex: It’s about 8 hours of you reading. How long did it take you to do it? What was the hardest part? And then just more broadly, what was the writing experience like?

John: Okay. So the recording, yeah, was two 4-hour days in a studio. And I mean, we would take breaks and stuff like that ’cause clearly the final version isn’t 8 hours. The hardest part is I have about 41 quotes in there from people that had been guests on the podcast. Some of them from Australia. Some of them from the US. Some from the UK, you know. So like different accents, different people. And so, there’s a voice coach person that was Skyped in who’s listening and reading the book verbatim with me. And he’s like “Oh, well…” You know, we get to this quote part. And he’s like “Well, you know, where’s this guy from?” And I say “Hey.” And he’s like “Oh, well, you know, just do a voice. You know, do the accent.”

And I’m like “No!” because this is a friend of mine. Like this is a guy I know or a woman I know. Like if I did your voice on the thing, you would get on a plane, fly to Denver, punch me in the throat, and then fly home. Like it would be like “What the hell do you think?” Especially if you’re in another country. It’s like “No, I’m not doing that.” Like this isn’t a fictional, you know, character. It’s not Ebenezer Scrooge. It’s a guy I know, you know. And so, we had a little bit of a conversation about that. And then, finally, I was like “Yeah, I’m not doing it. I’m just gonna do like a softer version of me so then you clearly know that it’s a quote from someone else.” Yeah, that was a weird experience.

And then also too, I found out that your brain switches words around. They mean the exact same thing, but it’s different than what I wrote in the book. And so, on occasion, I would get to a part and they’d be like “Okay, you gotta back up and reread that sentence” because I had said something that means the exact same thing, but it was slightly different than what was in the text. And I guess your brain does this all the time when you’re reading a hard copy of something, which is interesting to me, which I didn’t realize either.

Alex: I find myself doing even like short scripting, right? I do podcasts. You did a great job in your intro script, right? You know it very— You’ve probably said it very many times. Know it, but it’s easy when you’re reading something. Especially if you haven’t read it recently, it’s very easy to flip that around.

John: Yeah. Just have a little fun with it or whatever and they’re like “Nope, nope” ’cause it has to match up exactly because there’s like the Audible and Kindle. You can bounce between the two. So, if you’re reading Kindle and then you hit Pause, and then you bounce over to Audible, it will pick up right there at that spot. So it had to be exact, but it was also too— I was like “Well, I have these people saying these things from all the podcasts, like the recording, so can we just use that audio ’cause it’s literally the person saying it while they were on the show?” And they’re like “No, no.” I don’t know. Something about the quality or whatever, which I know isn’t true.

But I was just like “Whatever, you guys are just—” So it’s my voice literally for the whole thing, including the Coach Holtz intro, but the writing process was very much— I had a content editor, Chris Murray. And he became almost a therapist. He became a life coach. He became, I mean, way more than— I mean, when you’re writing a book, you go through like a lot in your head. And so, he came out to Denver for a week. And we did 40 hours in a conference room. There were giant Post-it notes taped everywhere or not Post-it notes, but like flipchart paper that’s posted like everywhere like who’s the book for, what’s the tone, like what’s the message, like what’s in the outline, what’s it look like and just map it all out.

And then from there, it’s just write without editing and then go back through after. And so, if look at the first draft compared to the final book, they’re cousins, but they don’t look alike. It’s a cool process to go through and then you get, you know, copyeditors involved later and then proof readers involved. They’re like 6 rounds between the two of those and like yeah. So it’s a lot of iron sharpens iron kind of concept. And you have to put your ego aside and be like, you know, “This is the vision of the book. And if you can make it better than what I thought, which they all did, then this is awesome.” You know, the book came out so much better than what I wanted, and I’m so proud of it. Like it will stand the test of time because I turned it in before COVID and then COVID hit. And I was like “Oh, my God, my book is obsolete before it even prints. This is crazy.” But it ended up being more important after COVID and yeah, man. But it’s a journey.

That’s for sure. And then people were asking for the audio versions. I was like “Oh. I guess I gotta go record it.” So I appreciate somebody listening to it. So, thanks, man.

Alex: For sure. No, can I ask you one last question?

John: Yeah. One more. It’s your show, dude. What do you mean?

Alex: What’d you learn from it? Like the discipline process of writing, I assume that was a multi-month, if not multi-year process from kinda—

John: Oh, yeah, 2 years.

Alex: Yeah.

John: It was 2 years from when Chris Murray was here in Denver to when it printed. It was 2 years almost to the week.

Alex: Wow.

John: And yeah, what I learned is that my mind is not my friend at all. Like who are you to write a book? No one’s gonna read this book. Who cares Like that? Like that and also that, you know, I have really unique ideas that can help a lot of people, and this needs to get out there. There’s a book called The War of Art by Steven Pressfield, which is amazing. And that is so true. Just resistance. You know, the more that you get closer to the finish line of a really big lifetime project sort of thing, the more resistance steps in and just tells you all these lies. And you know, it’s the lies that people tell themselves. Well, no one’s gonna care about my and.” Or, you know, I’m not a world class mountain biker, so why should I even mention it? And it’s like all these lies that we tell ourselves, you know. And it’s really rewarding to fight through that and to get to the other side.

Alex: It’s cliche to say, but we are our worst enemies and that I think it’s very true.

John: So true. Like so, so true, man. Well, I appreciate you being a part of this, Alex. This was super, super fun.

Alex: No, I had a great time and. Appreciate you having me on here today.

John: Yeah, absolutely. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Alex on his bike, or connect with him on social media, or check out The Branch Out podcast, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click the big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 533 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work.

And I’d wanna just take a quick moment here to plug Michael Puck’s globaldogart.com. Michael was a guest on the podcast last year, and he’s a dog photographer. It’s his “and.” And he has teamed with other dog photographers to create globaldogart.com. It’s really cool ’cause research has shown that pictures of dogs increase our well-being, reduce stress. They foster social connections amongst people, promote trusting relationships in business settings. So why not pictures of dogs? Really cool pictures of dogs in the workplace or at home. So check out globaldogart.com. All the proceeds go to save 1 million dogs by 2030. So it’s a really good cause from Michael Puck who shared his “and” on What’s Your “And”?

And don’t forget to check out the book as well. It’s whatsyourand.com. You can get the book there. And it’s available on Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, Amazon, Indigo, all the websites. So check it out. And don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Michele Harrison. She’s a learning and development manager with Janover. And now, she’s with me here today. Michele, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Michele: Thanks so much, John. It’s great to be here.

John: Oh, this is gonna be great. We met at the Janover event that I spoke at, and I’m so glad that we’re able to make this happen.

Michele: Yes.

John: So I’m excited.

Michele: It’s taken us a little bit to get here, but we’re finally here.

John: It’s worth it. It’s totally worth it. And I have rapid-fire questions I probably should have asked you when we were hanging out, but I didn’t. And we’re gonna get to know Michele on a new level here. This is probably an easy one. Favorite color?

Michele: Oh, blue.

John: Blue. Solid. Okay. Mine too. How about a least favorite color?

Michele: I’d probably say yellow.

John: Yellow. Interesting. Okay. All right. A little too bright.

Michele: Yeah.

John: How about a favorite TV show of all time?

Michele: Favorite TV show of all time would be The Wire.

John: Oh, interesting. Okay. All right. There you go. That’s a great show. When it comes to puzzles, Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Michele: Oh, jigsaw puzzle.

John: There you go. Pictures. Nice. Would you say you’re more talk or text?

Michele: Text.

John: Text. Okay.

Michele: Yeah.

John: How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Michele: I’m pretty old school, so I would say probably Betty Davis.

John: Wow! That’s really old school. Okay. But a really good pick.

Michele: Yeah.

John: That’s fantastic. Very good. Very good. This is an important one. Toilet paper roll, over or under?

Michele: Always over.

John: Always over. Are you one of those that changes it when you’re over at a friend’s place and they—

Michele: Not a friend’s place, but at my own home, yeah.

John: Oh, okay. Okay. All right. All right. Just seeing what level we’re at here. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Michele: Definitely Star Wars.

John: Yeah. I’m same. Yeah. Yeah. When it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or a real book?

Michele: I really like real books.

John: Yeah, I’m the same.

Michele: Yeah. Turn the page. Feel the paper.

John: Yeah, definitely. How about a favorite number?

Michele: 7.

John: 7. Solid. Is there a reason?

Michele: It’s funny. It’s kind of a neutral number. It’s not too low. It’s not too high. 1 through 10, it’s that neutral number.

John: That’s great. Yeah. Yeah. It’s in the middle. All right. No. And 5 is too on point.

Michele: Yeah.

John: It’s like you can’t be the exact metal. All right. I like that. How about your computer? PC or Mac?

Michele: PC.

John: PC. Yeah. Definitely. And when it comes to your mouse, right click or left click?

Michele: Oh, right click.

John: Oh, right. Opening up all the menus and the cool stuff. All right. All right. How about prefer more hot or cold?

Michele: Well, I live in Phoenix, so I definitely prefer the heat.

John: Oh, there you go, man. That’s a next level heat right there. That’s impressive. Then you gotta eat some ice cream. Ice cream in a cup or a cone?

Michele: Cone.

John: Cone. Oh, nice.

Michele: Yeah, every day.

John: Okay. Every day. Right. There you go. I like it. I like it. You’re my kind of people. How about a favorite sports team?

Michele: Oh, the Patriots.

John: Oh, okay.

Michele: Yeah.

John: All right. Interesting. You’re one of those. All right.

Michele: I am one of those.

John: That’s all right. Yeah. You’re gonna act like the ’80s and ’90s didn’t happen.

Michele: Very much so.

John: Right, right. It’s the time being specifically the Belichick Patriots.

Michele: Exactly.

John: It’s really what we’re talking about. Tom Brady. And I think I got two more. Cheeseburger or pizza?

Michele: Ooh, pizza.

John: Pizza, okay. Yeah. Very good. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Michele: I’d probably say my home gym.

John: Oh, okay. All right.

Michele: I spent many years building it, and it’s just a way to disconnect since I work from home.

John: Very cool. And it ties in perfectly with Krav Maga, which is like I had never heard of before until we met.

And I was like “Well, that sounds dangerous, but also really cool.” So how did you get started with that?

Michele: So Krav Maga was a way for me to meet people. I moved to Phoenix in 2014. I didn’t know anyone. And I had taken martial arts as a kid. My family was military, so my dad got me into karate when I was young. And I’d always kind of wanted to go back, but I’d never lived in a city that kind of had a ton of options. And I’d read about Krav Maga before. And I was like “Well, maybe someone in Phoenix does it.” And it just so happened that I go to EVKM Self-Defense and Fitness, and our head instructor actually got certified in Israel and is one of the top rated instructors in the country.

John: Oh, wow. And so, this is an Israeli self-defense?

Michele: Yeah. So it is an Israeli self-defense. It was created by— I’m gonna butcher his name— by Imi Lichtenfeld, who kind of helped create it to kind of protect the neighborhoods kind of around that World War II era. And then when they moved people to Israel, he was kind of brought in to help train the military, make sure that everyone could defend themselves ’cause in Israel, everyone has to join the military. Doesn’t matter if you’re female or male. And so, they had to create a system that could be used by anyone.

John: Wow. Very cool. And so, you just read about it and you’re like “Hey, I’d like to learn this one” as opposed to karate or whatever, like yeah.

Michele: I did a lot of research before I decided.

John: And what is different about Krav Maga to maybe other things as a person that doesn’t know much about any martial arts, I guess? I’ve seen Karate Kid and that’s about it.

Michele: Yeah. Well, I think, for me, personally, what sets Krav Maga apart from some other martial arts is it’s very much a toolbox. So we teach you tools and you can use those tools to defend multiple situations. And everything is the simplest form. So it’s no complicated katas. It’s nothing that involves 10 to 15 steps. You should be able to get it in 4 to 5, if not much less.

John: All right. Nice. And do you have any, I guess, like cool memories from since you starting to Krav Maga?

Michele: Yeah. I would say, you know, one of the best things that has happened to me from being Krav is first off, you know, I’ve met some of my best friends there, some of the best friends I’ll probably ever have in my life. But I’ve also gotten many opportunities to go and train with some very well-known martial artist everywhere from UFC fighters to glory kickboxing champions, to people who actually were in the military in Israel. And just kind of getting those different perspectives and sharing that love of martial arts and self-defense and that body awareness has been really awesome.

John: That’s impressive. I mean, yeah, to be around those people, but then also to train with them and to learn from them has gotta be really impactful. I mean, it’s learning how to play golf with professional golfers. Like just it raises your game.

Michele: Exactly.

John: You know, you just become better and that’s very cool. And then I know that the pictures that you submitted that people can see at whatsyourand.com, you’ve competed as well.

Michele: Yup. Part of what we do in Krav is the expectation is that you should be able to handle yourself in situations at certain levels and be, not competitive, but be able to survive in other martial arts practices. So it’s not about being better than other martial arts. It’s about being able to challenge yourself and survive. And so, one of the prerequisites for getting your black belt is that you have to do an actual sanction fight, whether that be boxing, Muay Thai. So I did a Muay Thai tournament. And I won gold in my division.

John: Wow! Congratulations!

Michele: Thank you.

John: So you didn’t even train in Muay Thai, but then you won it.

Michele: Yeah.

John: Which shows that the Krav Maga can translate to other disciplines, I guess, which is really cool. That’s awesome.

Michele: And I think the great thing about Krav is that we’re very willing to pull things in from different martial arts. So we do pull in stuff from Muay Thai, from boxing, from Jujitsu. It’s kind of about what works best for everyone. And if another martial arts already knows how to do it, well, we’re gonna incorporate that.

John: Well, yeah. Why reinvent the wheel type of thing, which is great, which I would imagine would be a skillset that translates to work a little bit. Or is there another skillset that you feel like that martial arts allows you to be able to do differently?

Michele: I think the biggest thing has probably been I don’t allow myself to get as stressed about work stuff as maybe I used to when I was young and I didn’t know anymore. I think martial arts and especially self-defense, I work with a lot of people who have gone through really horrible traumas. I mean, for some people, there is a reason why they’re showing up every day to train, and it’s because horrible things have happened to them. And so, kind of my work motto, I don’t know if everyone will agree, but I’m kind of like this is not an emergency.

There’s no such thing as a training emergency. We can always solve the problem. There’s always alternative solutions. And I think it’s allowed me to really remain calm when other people maybe have been panicking because a prominent rule of Krav is like address the immediate threat. So figure out what the immediate threat is and that’s the first thing that you need to address.

John: I mean, which is such a great skillset to have anyway, but definitely makes you a better professional. And that’s funny how you were like I’m not sure if everyone would agree, but not everything’s in emergency. But really, sometimes things really are an emergency, but it’s also like the emergency isn’t as big as what maybe what some people want it to be. It’s actually the emergency is this little part and then the other stuff is just, you know, collateral or whatever damage. And it is cool that you do the self-defense instructor as well. And so, how long have you been doing that side of it?

Michele: I have been an instructor since 2017.

John: Oh, okay. And so, do you feel like you learn a little bit differently from teaching?

Michele: Yeah. And it’s so funny because what I do for a hobby is kind of what I also do as a job, which is instruction, learning, and development. And I think what it does is you can have someone tell you how to do a technique and you can just do it like “Okay, we’re going to deal with a choke from the front today and I know how to do the defense.” But being able to explain to someone else how to do it when maybe they’ve never seen it before, I think it gives you a higher understanding because you start to understand why do we break things down certain ways, why do we explain it this way, because it allows for better learning. And we also try to incorporate like verbal learning, visual learning, and then learning through doing. So, it allows us to kind of touch all those points that all different people are in different ways.

John: I love that ’cause you’re basically exercising that muscle outside of work so then when you come to work, you’re just better and stronger at doing the learning and development, so that’s really cool. That’s huge overlap definitely ’cause, I mean, you’re literally doing it, but that’s really awesome. And have you shared this with coworkers? Do they know about this like throughout your career?

Michele: Yeah. So when I started it— It’s so funny that you ask. I talk about it at work because I’m very interested in what other people do as well. And self-defense to me is extremely important for people. And so, if me mentioning it just gets someone interested and even coming and trying one class, I’ve helped out someone in some way hopefully. So I’m very open to talking about it. John, I’ve actually used it in two instances. I used it once during an interview. I taught someone how to do a self-defense technique.

John: During an interview? That’s awesome.

Michele: During an interview. And then I have also— I used it in a cover letter.

John: Nice. There you go. Like why not?

Michele: Yeah.

John: That differentiates you. It’s like there’s a lot of people that do learning and development, but how many people do learning, and development, and self-defense instructor? That’s really awesome. Was that your thinking of like help me stand out, help me differentiate?

Michele: Yeah. It was a way to differentiate. We had to do a presentation. I had 5 minutes, and I couldn’t use like a PowerPoint. I couldn’t do anything like that. And so, I was like “Stand up. I’m gonna actually use you as my prop.” And she was very much just kind of like “Wait, what’s happening” and then was very— Like after I got hired at that job, she was very much like “I think I want my daughter to like do some self-defense. Can we talk about it?” And I was like “Yeah, like let’s definitely talk about that.”

John: I love how the after I got hired at that job because most people are like “Oh, well, there’s no way she got hired.” No, actually got hired for that job. You know? And that’s the same thing as like with my comedy like at the bottom of my resume. You know, I had big brothers, big sisters, and professional standup comedian and then job offer, you know, because people wanna be around real humans that have other dimensions to who they are.

Michele: Yeah.

John: And that’s really cool, you know. And then her daughter wants to now get lessons from you. And it’s like “All right.” It’s not like a make believe theory that might work. No, it straight works, you know, like to differentiate yourself. And that’s super awesome and especially that you share it ’cause some people— I don’t know. You get in your own head of, well, you know, this has nothing to do with the job. They’re not gonna care.

Michele: Exactly.

John: They’re gonna judge me for not being very dedicated or whatever. And it’s cool that you never thought that.

Michele: Yeah. I mean, I have had that experience before where I have had people question like if I was for the job because I had a hobby outside of it. And I was like “This is what allows me to like be the person you need in this role. I can be calm, I can make decisions, I can assess things because I go do all this stuff outside of work. And it’s never interrupted me doing my job.”

John: Yeah, exactly. I mean, if you’re able to get your work done, then gloves are off. Like you’re fair game. Like whatever you wanna do type of thing, which I think is super awesome that that’s been your experience as well. And how much do you feel like it’s on an organization to create that space to ask and encourage people to share their “and” and how much is it on the individual to just put it in the cover letter and let it rip type of thing or just create that small circle amongst their peers?

Michele: I think that it’s definitely a responsibility of a company to create an environment where people feel comfortable talking about themselves and not feel that it takes away from anything. Because if you can’t be comfortable being yourself in front of everyone, you’re not gonna feel comfortable doing the job or feel like you have the autonomy to do the job the way you need to get it done. But it’s also on the individual. That’s how you connect. So if you’re not wanting to make connections with the people you work with, then you’re not gonna share. But if you want to make connections, share what you do. I have found people who I didn’t realize did martial arts because I shared it randomly and then someone was like “Oh, I’m doing a jujitsu competition this weekend.” And I was like “I had no idea that you competed and trained.”

John: And then best friends like for no reason out of nowhere.

Michele: Exactly.

John: You know? Like it’s just a new level of connection, and interest, and all that. And also, I think it’s huge for like a sense of belonging. Like I’m not alone here. Especially over COVID and all that, like just loneliness and all that. So yeah, no, it’s definitely a big. Do you have any words of encouragement to people listening that maybe are thinking like I’ve got a hobby, but no one cares ’cause it has nothing to do with my work?

Michele: I would definitely say there is going to be someone or a group of people that you work with who do care, and who are interested, and who find it fascinating. It’s not gonna be everyone, but just keep sharing. And eventually, you’ll find that group that enjoys you for you and who you are outside of work. And it might introduce you to things that you didn’t realize. I have a friend who I didn’t know she drifts cars on the weekend. And so, I got to go ride with her and it was an amazing experience. And if we hadn’t like shared our hobbies with each other, would’ve had no idea.

John: Yeah. And I mean, like the jujitsu one where it’s like “Oh, I didn’t know that.” And it’s by, I think, sharing yours first kind of opens the gates. It makes it safe and then it also makes— You know, the universe is a little out of balance. So now, they have to reciprocate. It’s like “Well, you gotta say something now.”

Michele: And you need to celebrate the wins that you get outside of work just as much. Even something like “Oh, you bought a house? Like that’s amazing especially in today’s market.”

John: Right. Especially in today’s market.

Michele: Yeah. Why aren’t we celebrating that? Why don’t we know that? Like even simple things like “Oh, I finished my master’s degree.” Like someone saying that and being like “Yes, that’s awesome. You spent so much time in there.” “Oh, you won your jujitsu competition this weekend. That’s amazing. Like go out and do cool things, and do what makes you happy and what makes you excited.”

John: Ah, I like that. ‘Cause in that excitement, then that energy you can bring to work. And sometimes work is exciting, but sometimes it’s not. Your “and” is always exciting. I mean, that’s always fun. That’s why you’re doing it. And so, you do it and then you get that energy, get the inertia built up, and then go do work and bring that enthusiasm to it. So I love that mindset. Well, this has been awesome, Michele. And I feel like it’s only fair that I turn the tables since I so rudely fired questions at you at the beginning. So we make this The Michele Harrison Podcast, and thanks for having me on as a guest.

Michele: Yeah.

John: So I’m all yours, whatever you got. I’m buckled in.

Michele: Yeah. So, mountains or the beach?

John: Ah, yeah. So I live in Denver and I can see the mountains right now from my office. So I’m a little bit spoiled on that. So I’d probably say beach only because that involves I’m on vacation, and it’s probably also somewhere warm and sunny, and good food, and all that. So I’ll probably say beach only because I’m spoiled with the mountains right here. But man, mountains are pretty cool, but I’ll say beach if I had to pick one.

Michele: Oh, I love it. And so, you do stand up and that was kind of your “and.” So who is your favorite comedian?

John: Oh, wow, that’s great. Yeah, I mean, probably I had to pick one, it would probably be Brian Regan is probably my favorite. But you know, I mean Chappelle and Bill Burr have been on fire lately, and I mean just so good. And then like just friends of mine that I was in New York City with like Nate Bargatze, and Ryan Hamilton, and guys like that. Tommy Johnagin who’s now in LA and like just anyone that does it, especially for a living. I mean, just hats off. I mean, kudos. Like whether it’s my style of comedy or not, it’s a crazy, crazy life and you have to be really passionate about it to do it.

Yeah. I mean, I would say those. I mean, typically, the clean observational, you know, just looking at life a little bit differently in through a different lens than what you are in and also just a little bit of silly. Like Brian Regan’s always silly. There’s never an agenda to his comedy. No one’s getting offended. So that’s why I’d probably say him just ’cause it’s always good.

Michele: So I’m glad you brought up Nate Bargatze cuz he’s one of my favorite comedians, but also the bit that got him well known, you know, the Cape Fear Serpentarium bit that he does—

John: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michele: …so that’s where I went to college and I have been to that spot, the Cape Fear Serpentarium.

John: Okay.

Michele: I had been to it. So when it came on Netflix and he did it, I was telling everyone, I was like “I’ve been there. That’s a real place. I promise it’s exactly as he described it.”

John: And that’s the thing, I mean Nate’s so good at just like being the every man of just like, you know— And the way he delivers, it’s just slow and deliberate. He’s just not overdoing it, but he’s also just describing something. Maybe you’ve been or maybe you haven’t, but the way that he paints the picture,—

Michele: You’re there.

John: …it’s real and it’s also through his lens of like “What the hell is this” type of thing where some people, whereas some people are like “Yeah, it’s normal. Whatever.” And then once you hear his bit, you’re like “Okay, now I can’t unhear this, we gotta go back and see what he’s talking about” type of thing.

John: Yeah.

Michele: Yeah. No, he’s great. So funny. Absolutely. Yeah. And a good guy too, which is always nice.

Michele: Well, I thank you so much, John, for having me on the podcast. And hopefully, we can get you out to Phoenix to train one day.

John: Oh, there we go. No, I love it. No, this has been great, Michele. And no, it’s just awesome to have you a part of What’s Your “And”? and yeah, so thanks for taking time and also just living the example

And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Michele in action or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research about corporate culture. And don’t forget to read the award-winning book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 531 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show’s about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t see how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast studio so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Zach Gordon. He’s a VP of accounting at Propeller Industries in New York City and was a CPA practice advisor 40 under 40. And now, he’s with me here today. Zach, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Zach: Thanks so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here.

John: Yeah, this is gonna be so much fun. I have some rapid-fire questions though. Get to know Zach out of the gate here. I’ll ask you the first one. I love this one. A favorite animal. Any animal at all.

Zach: Dog. Gotta be a dog.

John: Dog. Okay. All right. Going old school. I like it.

Zach: It solves the dog or cat question. That’s easy.

John: I’m not even asking you that one. There we go. Perfect. All right. 16 rapid-fire questions now. No, I’m just kidding. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw?

Zach: Well, given that we’re accountants, work with numbers, gotta be Sudoku.

John: Sudoku. There you go. I always joked that that’s how I do my tax returns.

Zach: You and me both.

John: You’re right. Yeah.

Zach: Kidding. Kidding. Anyone listening?

John: Right. It’s so annoying when you’re not a tax person and everyone thinks you should be. And it’s like no. Like we do more things than just tax, everybody.

Zach: Does every accountant do taxes?

John: Right? I mean, they do them. Are they right? Maybe, maybe not. Here’s a simple one for you. Favorite color?

Zach: Blue.

John: Blue. Mine too. There you go. How about a least favorite color?

Zach: That’s a great question. Some electric pinks out there I just can’t get behind.

John: Perfect. Yeah, neon anything really. But neon pink, yeah, that’s pretty high up there. Are you more of a talk or a text?

Zach: Text. I mean, getting on the phone more than we have to already. You know, the Zoom fatigue is real. Let’s put it that way.

John: Very real. And I appreciate you making time to do this podcast. Definitely. Because texting it back and forth would be weird.

Zach: That might take a little more time.

John: A little bit. A little bit. How about a favorite comedian of all time?

Zach: That’s a really interesting question. Probably have to go Chris Rock.

John: Oh, yeah. Solid. Yeah, he’s great and super nice, which is cool too.

Zach: First comedian I ever saw live. So you know, something to that.

John: Well, that’s a pretty good start. How about a suit and tie or jeans and a T-shirt?

Zach: Depends. Usually, the jeans and T-shirt. But you know, if you have to suit up sometimes, we all have to do what we all have to do.

John: Yeah, absolutely. No, suit and tie is great, especially now that they have like the made to measure type companies.

Zach: I just got one. And man, it was perfect.

John: Right?

Zach: They’re wizards out there.

John: No, it’s so good. And like it makes you wanna wear it more ’cause it’s like I picked the lining, I picked all this like, and it fits right. You know, it’s not off the rack where you gotta, yeah, feel like you’re in a box. So, good for you, man. Yeah, that’s awesome. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Zach: Star Wars by a long shot.

John: Okay. Yeah, mine too. Same. How about your computer? More of a PC or a Mac?

Zach: You know, I had the blessing to be on a Mac for a long time, and I had to relearn how to use a PC once I got back into public accounting. So, Mac by a mile.

John: Okay. Okay. That’s funny how you called it a blessing. That’s awesome.

Zach: Listen, I know accounting software and some of the stuff that we need isn’t quite the same on a Mac, but it’s just so much easier and more intuitive to use.

John: There you go. I’m not cool enough to even walk into a Mac store. I’m just gonna take your word for it and keep going on.

Zach: Come on. Come on.

John: Right? Oh, maybe I’ll get around it now. Yeah, there we go. How about more oceans or mountains?

Zach: You know, it’s really interesting given that was just up in Colorado. Got to experience the mountains a little bit, but usually the ocean to be honest.

John: Yeah, it’s usually warmer. I don’t know why when you think ocean, you think beach. You don’t think Maine in February, you know.

Zach: No. Nobody wants to. Good Lord.

John: Nor do you want to. Right. Some things you can’t unhear like that.

Now, ice cream. I’m a huge ice cream junkie. Do you get it in a cup or a cone?

Zach: Oh, cone.

John: Cone. There you go. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Zach: Ooh, man. Been a real bourbon kick lately. So there’s a couple of local distilleries up here that have just been knocking out of the ballpark.

John: Nice. There you go. We got six more or five more. How about balance sheet or income statement?

Zach: Balance sheet. It tells the whole story.

John: Oh, okay. All right. All right. There you go. Your first concert.

Zach: So this is a little embarrassing. It was actually Kiss. I went with my mom.
John: That’s awesome. That’s incredible.

Zach: I must have been one of the three youngest people in the crowd. But yeah, she went to the concert at whatever the arena was called back in the day in Albany, New York. And yeah, we ended up going together, you know, 7 or 8, whatever I was. Yeah. That was quite the experience.

John: That is quite the experience. That’s awesome, man. That’s pretty cool. How about a favorite number?

Zach: 22. That was my baseball number. Stocker football for a million years.

John: Okay. Yeah. Solid. How about books? Audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Zach: Oh, the real book. There’s nothing like having a tangible book in your hand as you try to— Well, given I have a little one here, finding that time to actually read is difficult. So you know, the answer usually ends up being audio ’cause there’s no other time. But yeah, if I have my choice, it’s a physical book.

John: Real book. Yeah, I’m the same. I’m the same. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Zach: Time.

John: Time. Nice. Good answer.

Zach: Try not the way you wrote the—

John: No, that works, man. I like it. Yeah. It’s wide open. So, time. Yeah. No, that’s good. And especially with a little one. So now, you’re just showing off. That’s good, man. Yeah. So let’s talk running and adventures, and how did you get into this? Is it something that you did since you were younger? I mean, it sounds like playing sports of course, but was that always a thing?

Zach: Yeah. So I actually started running track in high school. It was a way to keep in shape during the winter. I’m from upstate New York, so outdoor options are, let’s say, limited. So being able to run track indoors was a nice way to stay entertained, stay out of trouble. And funny enough, I actually started as a sprinter. For the life of me, I could not run more than 800 meters without pacing.

John: Right?

Zach: I had that wall. I don’t know why, but just I could not do it.

John: That’s amazing.

Zach: Yeah. So you know, played sports a long time where all you have to do is sprint, so never too big a concern of running any more than that. And after college, just sort of started expanding it out and then someone got the crazy idea in my head to run a marathon. And it took a long time to get up to that. So started doing some 5Ks and just expanding out from there. And I’ve done 7 marathons so far, doing another one this year.

John: Good for you, man. Congrats. That’s incredible. Yeah, I’ve done one half marathon, and it should not be called a half of anything. It is far.

Zach: 10.1 miles of fun. What are you talking about?

John: Yeah. And it’s the 0.1 that really gets you.

Zach: You’re joking about that, but that’s true though.

John: No, I’m not joking about that. I’m dead serious. Like I did it in under 2 hours, which I was pretty excited about.

Zach: Wow.

John: And so, my whole mantra during like training ’cause I ran in with a couple other people, and I was not as dedicated to the training as they were, and they were frustrated by that. And my whole mantra was just peak on race day. Like I don’t wanna peak too soon. Like I gotta just keep going, bring it on race day, like that’s it. And I did like luckily, but I was like “All right, I’m not doing this again. Like this is crazy.”

Zach: Let me ask. Was the runner’s high real for you?

John: No.

Zach: Oh, man, you missed the best part.

John: I did. There’s a lot of people that get it and that’s great. And it was in Indianapolis, so it was kind of cool. You ran around the race track at the Indy 500 and so that was fun. There’s a lot of people along the sides that kept it entertaining. It kept moving, I guess, for me ’cause that’s the problem is when I run, my brain starts going squirrely ’cause you don’t really have to focus a whole lot. And so, when there’s other distractions, it was helpful.

Zach: Well, if you wanna hear the most nerdy thing of all time, I’ll listen to CPE podcast sometimes when I’m running.

John: Oh, there you go.

Zach: So, multitasking. I’m getting CPE and I’m running.

John: Right?

Zach: And that’s probably one of the top 3 nerdiest statements I’ve ever made.

John: Right? It’s like what’s more painful? CPE or running? Then it balances each other out. It’s like two negatives make a positive. That’s awesome, man. But it’s efficient. That’s efficiency. But 7 marathons, do you have one that was your favorite?

Zach: The first one.

John: Which one was that one?

Zach: New York City. So being able to run through, just getting the excitement, the energy. I mean, there’s a million people all along if you count everybody up and just everyone’s super into it.

And the runner’s high was real. So you’re right, the 26.2, that 0.2 at the end right through Central Park was a nightmare. Oh, man.

John: Right?

Zach: But being able to actually cross the line finish, yeah, it was so much fun.

John: And in New York. I mean, that’s cool too, you know, being from upstate and all that. That’s exciting. Yeah. And you run through all the boroughs and yeah. I mean, it’s just cool.

Zach: Exactly. I got to run by my house, which is fun, you know.

John: Oh, even better. Yeah. That’s awesome, man. And it sounds like you’ve done running, I mean, outside of structured runs like a marathon or whatever, but all over the world really.

Zach: Yeah. So I have this interesting habit depending on what you think is interesting. But anywhere I go, I’ll get up super early in the morning and just go explore. So I’ll just go run through wherever I am. And so, a couple weeks ago, I was out in Denver and, yeah, got to explore pretty much every inch of the city, which was pretty cool. They like to broadcast they have one of the best downtowns of any city in the country. And it’s like “Oh, let me check this out.”

John: Yeah, I’ll be the judge of that.

Zach: Exactly.

John: Right?

Zach: What authority I have, but—

John: Right.

Zach: A few of them have gotten a little more crazy though. So, going into Safari and Africa, asking some very specific questions on where I can run. Little details like that, but it’s cool. There’s no better way to learn a place or find little fun spots than that. I mean, going back to my first marathon, you get to go through some really interesting areas of Brooklyn, of Queens, the Bronx. You know, that sort of got me thinking. And like you said, you have nothing but time. So the head starts going all over the place. I’m like “Wow, that looks like a cool bar. You know, that place looks like it has some pretty good food, so let me come back and check it out.” And then you start heading to enough spots and I wanna see what’s out there. And Yelp just isn’t the same.

John: Yeah. Oh, no, no, That’s awesome, man. And I mean, you’re staying fit, you’re exercising. When you fly somewhere, any jet lag or anything like that, you can work that out and it just gets your blood going. And that’s cool, man. That’s really neat. That’s really neat. And especially like in other continents, which is cool too type of thing.

Zach: Yeah. I mean, running an altitude in Peru was interesting.

John: Oh, wow.

Zach: Yes. I think we’re about 11,000 feet up, 12,000, somewhere in that ballpark. So yeah, being a little careful on that run too, but—

John: Right. Right.

Zach: Yeah. Being able to experience the different flavor so to speak has been a really interesting experience.

John: That’s fantastic, man. And do you feel like any of that translates to a skillset you use at work?

Zach: There’s certainly a discipline aspect to it as you said with jet lag or some of those late night meals, and adult beverages, and such. Yeah, sometimes you have to peel yourself out of the bed to get up and out there. So that’s certainly a big part of it. And yeah, I think that’s the biggest thing that I’ve learned from running, is just keeping that discipline and having a goal and moving towards it as corny as that sounds.

John: No, no, that’s incredible because, I mean, otherwise you’re just a ship without a rudder just aimlessly wandering around just doing whatever happens to be coming up next. And it’s like “No, no, like I have this goal and I’m gonna work towards it.” And then there’s a sense of accomplishment there. There’s so many great things that come from that. And I would imagine too when you’re in the middle of a busy project or an intense time, it’s that last point too of the marathon type of thing. You’re like “Hey, I did a marathon. We’re good.”

Zach: Of course. Then you start telling those stories and most people just roll their eyes. You know, the marathon, right. Yeah.

John: Oh, yeah. This guy again. Right. Well, you don’t have to tell the story. It’s more just to yourself maybe.

Zach: I should probably learn that lesson at some point.

John: Right. No. Or maybe people should just get out there and run one or a half or something.

Zach: No. Honestly, it really is a great experience. You don’t have to sprint it. You don’t have to go for the world record. But the best advice I ever got for running is just after the first step, it’s all momentum.

John: There you go.

Zach: Physical aspect to it doesn’t matter. I was taking the Staten Island ferry out to keep going back to my first one and next to me was a 74-year-old woman who had been running the marathon consecutively for two plus decades, whatever it was. And so, she was telling some stories ’cause you have an hour to kill basically. And at the end, if she can do this, I can do this. If she can set some pretty tough time milestones, what am I complaining about? What am I worried about? You know? It’s all momentum at a certain point, and there’s gotta be a lesson in there somewhere.

John: Oh, totally. I love that phrase. I mean, after the first step, it’s all momentum. That’s the first step’s the hardest kind of concept and whatever it is. Yeah. ‘Cause it really is and then you’re just one foot in front of the other. Just keep going type of thing.

Zach: Exactly. I mean, you might need a little water, maybe a power bar.

John: Right. Some electrolytes.

Zach: Yeah, maybe.

John: Right? Yeah. But you know, it is momentum and I mean that works figuratively for work in so many things and that’s great.

And so, has there ever been a part of you that’s like maybe I shouldn’t share an outside of work me ’cause clearly running marathons has nothing to do with any accounting job at all? Like has it ever crossed your mind that like “Oh, maybe I shouldn’t share”?

Zach: Yes. You know, there’s plenty of people out there who don’t necessarily value those type of extracurricular activities that sometimes in those work settings that really the focus is really on work. They don’t want to hear about some of those things. And yeah, it can come off a little braggadocia sometimes, which I can definitely understand. So, trying to posit in a careful way. And the same thing with traveling all over the place too. I mean, telling stories, going on safari, some people are either super interested or you get the eye roll and moving it on, that sort of thing.

John: But I mean, that’s on them, you know.

Zach: Of course. I’m definitely not the shy type, so I will definitely share without a doubt. But just being measured in how do you share those stories is something I try to be at least a little cognizant of.

John: Yeah, absolutely. No, for sure. Yeah. ‘Cause you definitely don’t wanna come across braggadocious like you said. It’s more of just “Hey, this lights me up. I wanna talk about it. You know, what lights you up? Sure. I’ll listen to you talk about volunteering at the dog shelter. Go nuts.” You know? Or whatever your thing is. Or you watched every House of Cards episode for the fifth time or whatever it is. But you can just tell the passion when people are talking about it. They’re excited. They’re animated. Their eyes get bigger. They’re alive sort of a thing.

Zach: Exactly.

John: That’s always good to ask others as well to work around that.

Zach: So I will say the Mile High City wasn’t that much of a challenge. I was expecting—

John: Well, have you done Peru? Peru is twice as much apparently.

Zach: Oh, that was years ago. I was a younger let’s say “athlete” at that point.

John: I was under 30.

Zach: Yes, I was.

John: Yeah. I mean, I don’t have a problem. I’ve never had a problem when I adjusted to Denver or when I leave and come back. Like I personally don’t, but I also don’t run. So now, we’re even.

Zach: Well-played.

John: Yeah, you’re right. Right? But yeah, I mean, I think if you go up in the mountains though, that’s when it starts to get a lot more on that. That’s for sure. And I guess at Propeller, I mean, a lot of you are remote. Is there anything that the firm does, the organization does to encourage people whether it’s share their hands or get to know each other on a human level?

Zach: I’ve gotta be honest. My first week in the firm, I was in a state of complete culture shock. You know, coming from public accounting, going through multiple firms, it was a completely different experience. So the way you posit What’s Your “And”? is exactly what that first week was like. And that was truly shocking.

John: That’s awesome.

Zach: There was a genuine sharing of not just the work side, but a personal type of aspect as well, which is something I think the greater accounting industry can and should begin to take in.

John: Yeah. Or the greater corporate world could take in.

Zach: Exactly. And that’s something that startup land has definitely gotten right for the most part, you know, big tech. Say what you will. But from a culture standpoint, it’s a very different presentation and that’s sort of the expectation of this new workforce out there and it really should be for all of us. And I’m getting off my soapbox, I swear.

John: No, no, no. I’ll encourage you on this one all day long because it was just people asking just pretty much like who is Zach and what do you like to do, what lights you up sort of thing.

Zach: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I’m also in a bit of a specialized situation working in crypto, which is always a good conversation starter. But beyond that, what makes you tick and vice versa? We’re sort of stuck working together for a while, so let’s see if there’s some sort of interpersonal connection we can make.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah, I love that so much. Yeah. Because, I mean, it matters. I mean, the technical skills, you either have them or we can teach you them or computers do them. But the human side of things and who are you, and the more that you can understand about someone’s story, the better everything’s going to be, you know. And so, it’s great to hear that they were doing it from the beginning, which is cool.

Zach: And it’s not always easy for accountants. I mean, so many introverts in the industry and just not necessarily the most outgoing of individuals. And that’s not good, bad, or otherwise. People are who they are, which is fine, but trying to find that middle ground is always a big deal. And especially in a client-facing, service-based industry, we should probably be doing that anyway. Shouldn’t all just be debits and credits.

John: Yeah. Because, I mean, that’s truly a differentiator especially with a client relationship side of things. ‘Cause, I mean, another accounting service can come in and do the accounting. It’s not like what I’m doing is I’m the only one and no one else can do this.

Zach: Right?

John: Right. You’re right. Exactly. Debits are still on the left. Okay, cool. They match. It’s like another organization can come in and do that.

Well, yeah, I mean, I guess that’s true. But you know, if you get to know the human side and bring some of that in, then that’s like when I speak a lot, it’s just bring the human from behind the job title. Like What’s Your “And”? is who else are you besides the job title?

Zach: It’s really funny. I think it was my second year out of college. I was working on some random real estate company, whatever it was. And I’m a bit of a sports fan if you can’t tell, but the CFO for the real estate company was a huge Knicks fan. So we were just talking basketball all the time and how terrible they were. You know, that type of stuff.

John: For sure. It’s Knicks. Right.

Zach: Exactly. That we have to go through. But because of that, we developed this awesome relationship, and he ended up calling me first before calling the partner, the manager on the job, or whatever the case. And people couldn’t figure out why. And it’s like “Listen, there’s nothing special about me. I’m, what, 22-23 years old, whatever I was. I don’t know anything about accounting, let’s be honest, but—”

John: But the human side of things, you know. Yeah. And it’s I trust you more because I know you more type of thing. And you know, the industry wants to call themselves trusted advisers and you’re an adviser adviser probably. What are you doing to develop trust? And being good at your job does not develop trust. Like everyone else is also good at their job.

Zach: It’s a baseline. It’s not a plus.

John: Exactly. And you gotta get to the pluses in order to develop trust. And I mean, there’s brain science behind it as well and all that. And so, that’s cool man. And you did it on accident kind of, but you learned and you observed it, you know. But you observed it and you’re like “Hey, there’s something here” and that’s cool that you’re carrying it forward. So that’s cool.

Zach: It’s been working so far anyway.

John: Right?

Zach: And to bring this full circle, it’s just that sort of interpersonal relationship building. And I told anyone who would listen, this is different than really anything else I’ve ever seen. And again, that’s not the disparage or say anything otherwise about any other experiences that I’ve personally had, but there’s just some really good lessons in there to learn and things that I took to heart for sure.

John: The more that organizations can bring the human to work and from the beginning, then the better it will be for everyone. And you’re a living example of this. The fact that it was a shock is sad, but you embraced it. I think more people are getting there, so it’s encouraging to hear. But you have any words for anyone listening that maybe has an “and” that they feel like has nothing to do with their job, but they still have a passion for something outside of work?

Zach: Yeah. Don’t ever give it up and find a way to communicate with your team, your friends in the office, wherever the case within the firm where you’re not necessarily alienating anyone, but just that it becomes a natural part of the day to day.

John: There you go. That’s the magic right there. It’s something that happens on the regular. So, cool, man. Well, this has been so much fun. And before I decide to lace up and go run with you sometime, I feel like it’s only fair that I turn the tables and allow you to ask me any sort of questions you would like. We’ll make this the first episode of The Zach Gordon Podcast. I don’t know what kind of music you like, but anyway.

Zach: For the show, but—

John: Right. Right. There you go. But yeah, but I’m all yours man. Whatever you got.

Zach: Perfect. So I know you’ve traveled around a little bit yourself. What’s your favorite city?

John: Yeah, that’s a good question. Probably Cape Town, South Africa is probably my favorite city.

Zach: Oh, man, that’s up there for me too.

John: It’s a unique mix. Due to the apartheid, there’s a lot of western influence, so there’s the infrastructure. And there’s a grid, but there’s still that raw African vibe and culture there. Plus, there’s nature, and wine country, and all that.

Zach: That’s only an hour away and—

John: Exactly. It’s a cool city for sure. You really gotta want to go there ’cause it’s far, but it’s a cool city.

Zach: Yeah. You have to make a trip out of it and then—

John: Yeah, exactly.

Zach: What’s your least favorite?

John: Least favorite city? Ooh, that’s a good question. Oh, man. Wow. That is a really good question. Shreveport, Louisiana is easily gonna be my least favorite city, easily for so many reasons. My senior year at Notre Dame, we played in the Independence Bowl and it’s in Shreveport, and it should not be a bowl. It was in their state fair rodeo stadium. So they didn’t have enough bathrooms or food vendors. So it’s like Porta Johns. And we played against LSU, so it’s like home state. And so, it was absolutely crazy. And then I went back probably 10 years later to the Funny Bone in Shreveport and that’s a long week ’cause that was like Wednesday night through Sunday night. So it was almost like 6 days you’re there.

It was a long week, and I’m not sure I’m gonna go back like ever. Like if there’s a company that wants to bring me into Shreveport, I’ll pay for everyone to come to another city and let’s just go to like somewhere else.

John: Right, exactly. That’s how much— Yeah, Shreveport, Louisiana. That’s definitely gonna be my least favorite. I could say that with conviction.

Zach: I can see that.

John: I’m sure the people are nice, but yeah. Yeah, it’s a whole another episode when I’m back on The Zach Gordon Podcast.

Zach: There, it’s perfect.

John: Yeah, exactly. You got one more?

Zach: What’s your favorite sandwich?

John: Ooh, favorite sandwich. That’s tough man ’cause like a Reuben’s good, like a Cubano’s good. Something with bacon always good.

Zach: I’m giving the hard hitting tough questions out here.

John: Yeah. But they’re hard, man. You make me think. Like my brain’s hurting. Preferably anything with bacon. There’s cheese on there. That’s always a plus. But yeah, probably one of those two would be good. Yeah. I wonder if there’s a Ruben with bacon on it.

Zach: I’m sure you can make that happen.

John: Yeah, that would be pretty magical. It’d probably be a restaurant in Shreveport and now I really got to decide like—

Zach: The only place in the world that serves that sandwich.

John: Right? It’s like “Well, John, which one’s the best here or the worst?”

Zach: And how far does Uber Eats go?

John: Right? There you go. That’s awesome. Well, thanks so much, Zach, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? It’s really, really cool to have you on the show.

Zach: No, I really appreciate you being here. Thank you so much for having me.

John: Yeah, absolutely. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Zach from his adventures running or connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. And while you’re on the page, please click the big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread. That who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 529 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and.” For instance, who else are you beyond the job title?

And I want to make a quick plug here for globaldogart.com. Last year, Michael Puck was on the show, and his “and” was dog photography. And he wanted me to let you know that dogs foster social connection and pictures of them help promote trusting relationships in business settings. And researchers also confirmed that pictures of dogs increase our well-being and reduce stress. And so, he teamed up with other dog photographers all over the world to create globaldogart.com. And you can bring in those pictures into your home or your business settings. And 100% of the proceeds go to save 1 million dogs by 2030. So check out globaldogart.com.

And while you’re on the internet, check out whatsyourand.com. And the book is out there on Amazon, and Barnes & Noble, Indigo, Bookshop, and a few other websites. So check out those links. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Elizabeth Coo. She’s a senior litigation associate at Gursey | Schneider in Los Angeles, and the host of the Entry Level Adulting podcast. And now, she’s with me here today. Elizabeth, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Elizabeth: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here.

John: Oh, this is gonna be great. This is like entry level, teenager level, my podcast. So feel like it’s pre-adult compared to your show. So this is gonna be super, super fun.

Elizabeth: Probably. Probably.

John: Super, super fun. But I love to have rapid-fire questions up front just to get to know Elizabeth on another level here. And so, I’ll start you off maybe an easy one. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Elizabeth: So I’m actually more of a Trekker.

John: Okay. No problem.

Elizabeth: Not a Star Wars fan.

John: No problem at all.

Elizabeth: Yeah, I’m a Star Trek fan.

John: Absolutely. They’re people too, you know. They’re people too.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

John: They’re not Klingons, but they’re people. So it’s all good.

Elizabeth: They’re people. Sure.

John: It’s all good. Absolutely. Absolutely. How about a favorite animal? Any animal at all?

Elizabeth: Dog. Hands down.

John: Okay. Okay. Oh, well, globaldogart.com. There we go. Perfect.

Elizabeth: I know, exactly. I was like “Yes, I gotta check it out.” Absolutely.

John: There you go. There you go. How about when it comes to puzzles, Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Elizabeth: Jigsaw.

John: Jigsaw. Okay. All right.

Elizabeth: I am a Wordle. I have been playing Wordle like every single day ever since it came out.

John: Okay.

Elizabeth: Yup.

John: Yeah.

Elizabeth: I dunno where that falls into the equation.

John: No, Wordle definitely counts. Wordle is a puzzle of some sort, so that definitely counts. Absolutely. How about your computer? Are you a PC or a Mac?

Elizabeth: I am a Mac girl. But it’s funny because for work, I tend to prefer PC.

John: Sure. Nice. A little ambidextrous there. I’m impressed.

Elizabeth: A bit there. Yeah.

John: Nice.

Elizabeth: Just a smidge.

John: Okay. Okay. How about a favorite color?

Elizabeth: Ooh, probably green.

John: Green. Solid. Nice. Yeah.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

John: How about a least favorite color?

Elizabeth: Probably also a shade of green.

John: Okay. We’re gonna have to narrow this down now.

Elizabeth: Yes. I like like foresty greens and—

John: Okay, so the darker.

Elizabeth: …soothing green.

John: Okay.

Elizabeth: But then I don’t like kind of the yellowy-er kind of like puke greens.

John: Ah, yeah. Okay. Fair enough.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

John: Yeah. Okay. I can get behind that. All right. All right. How about more talk or text?

Elizabeth: Talk. Oh, absolutely. Hands down. I am a terrible texter.

John: That’s awesome. That’s very funny. That’s hilarious.

Elizabeth: I know. I’m a bit of an old soul in that sense.

John: No, no, I love it. That’s great. That’s great. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Elizabeth: Oh, that’s too hard. I can’t. I’ll pass on that one.

John: All of them.

Elizabeth: It’s too many.

John: Right.

Elizabeth: Too many.

John: Okay.

Elizabeth: Way too many.

John: Okay. All right. Fair enough, fair enough. How about more heels or flats?

Elizabeth: Flats. I would love to say heels. I love the way I look in heels, but flats are just way more comfortable.

John: And more practical in everything. Yeah. Okay.

Elizabeth: Yes.

John: Fair enough. Fair enough. How about oceans or mountains?

Elizabeth: You’re like talking about two of my loves here.

John: Okay. Well, we could have oceans into the mountains, which is why you’re in California probably.

Elizabeth: But what I really want is a mountain on the ocean. That’s what I want.

John: Oh, so like a Hawaiian island maybe.

Elizabeth: Yes. Precisely that.

John: Okay. Okay. There we go. We’ll take it. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. You flipped it where it’s a mountain in the ocean. Yeah. ‘Cause normally it’s the other way around. Okay. I like that. I like that. I’m an ice cream junkie. Ice cream in a cup or a cone?

Elizabeth: I usually go cup.

John: Yeah, I’m the same.

Elizabeth: I feel like you get more ice cream that way.

John: You totally do. You totally do.

Elizabeth: I’m a bit of a purist.

John: It’s a trick. It’s a trick. And you know what you can do? You can sweet talk the person into giving you the cone on top so you get both.

Elizabeth: Yes. Exactly.

John: That’s what I do.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

John: So how about a favorite adult beverage?

Elizabeth: Currently, the Dirty Shirley. And that is extremely popular, but I would just like to say that I liked it before it was trending.

John: Right. Okay. I’ll believe you on that one. I’ll believe you on that one.

Elizabeth: I promise I didn’t just make that my drink of the summer.

John: Here you go. There you go. Yeah. How about since you got the CPA balance sheet or income statement?

Elizabeth: Oh, income statements.

John: Income statement. Okay. There you go.

Elizabeth: Yes.

John: Yeah. Show me the dollars. There we go. Cash flow.

Elizabeth: Show me the flow.

John: Yup. There you go. How about favorite season? Summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Elizabeth: Summer. Oh, I’m a summer girl. Hands down. I’m in California for a reason.

John: Right. There you go. There you go. Three more. How about a favorite number?

Elizabeth: Oh, 7.

John: 7?

Elizabeth: I know that’s common.

John: No. Is there a reason?

Elizabeth: It’s complete. It’s complete.

John: Okay. There you go.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

John: I like it. There you go. How about when it comes to books? Audio version, e-Book, real book?

Elizabeth: I mean, I love a real book. But to be honest, I do most of my reading on e-Books.

John: Okay. All right. Yeah. No. Well, I mean, it’s just you can carry more in one gadget. Yeah.

Elizabeth: Practically speaking, it’s easier, but I’m a total sucker for like that book smell. Like the real book smell.

John: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Elizabeth: That’s the best.

John: Yeah. Really is. No, I’m the same. I’m the same. And a favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Elizabeth: Favorite thing I own would probably be either my tea maker or a cookbook I have from my grandpa’s like small town in Pennsylvania.

John: Oh, nice.

Elizabeth: It that’s local cookbook with all the church women’s recipes for all the right cookies. Cookies are really big in Western Pennsylvania and stuff like that. Like all the good desserts. Those like German immigrant desserts.

John: Nice.

Elizabeth: It’s amazing.

John: Oh, man, I’m starving right now just hearing this.

Elizabeth: I know. I know.

John: That’s so good. So good. Those are awesome. That’s very cool. Very, very cool. So let’s talk podcasting, which is very meta of us to be on a podcast.

Elizabeth: It is. It is.

John: Talking about making a podcast. I just realized this. We’re in the matrix, but yeah. How did you get started?

Elizabeth: That’s a great question. So I love that I’m talking to someone who’s even been doing podcasting longer than me because as I’m sure you can relate to so much of this. You walk into it backwards, right?

John: Right.

Elizabeth: So what happened was I didn’t know what I wanted to do with my life. I just went to business school and thought I would end up in marketing, realized that was not for me.

John: Okay.

Elizabeth: And I couldn’t care less about marketing. And so then, I did an accounting class and I kind of was good at it. And so, I said I guess I’ll just do this, which is pretty much every accounting major that you probably ever met. Like there’s a reason you have so many accountants on this show, John. Like all of us were like we don’t really know how we got here, but we’re just kinda here making a living. And I guess we’ll just do something on the side.

John: Right. There you go.

Elizabeth: And that is literally every accounting major. And so, what happened, I was like the only one of my friends that went to business school. And so, I had all this sort of accumulated knowledge that I started taking for granted once we graduated, kind of how to budget and taxes, all these boring adult things that everybody says they wishes got taught in school and then we didn’t. I had kind of gotten some of that knowledge. Plus, my parents told me about stuff as well. And so, I had all this knowledge and then I’m also a very creative person. Right? So I’m sitting on all this knowledge and I, for fun, made a voice acting demo.

John: Yeah, okay.

Elizabeth: A kid’s voice acting demo.

John: Yeah.

Elizabeth: And so, I learned through that process how to use voiceover equipment and what softwares to use, how to use the microphone to your advantage to be a proper voice artist and stuff. And so, I’m combining— I’m staying here. I’m like “How can I combine this voiceover knowledge I’ve just learned and now all this business knowledge I’ve just learned?” And out of that was basically birthed the Entry Level Adulting Podcast. I said, “Why don’t I just make a podcast?”

John: Yeah, I love it.

Elizabeth: Like many people said in the pandemic. And so, that’s really how I got started, was I had these sort of two creative pursuits, two different knowledge bases that I said “Let me just combine them and make them into something useful.”

John: That’s fantastic. That’s so great. Yeah. Absolutely. And I mean, to have the knowledge and to share it, and then you can share it with so many more people than just like the circle that you see physically.

Elizabeth: That’s exactly it. I kept having these conversations with my friends and them just asking me similar questions. And I said, “I just wish there was a resource I could just point my friends to and say “Hey, go listen to this. This is everything that I would tell you in this conversation. You can just go listen to that here.” And like you said, help other people as well and reach even a broader audience than the people that would ask me. So that’s really how I got into it. That’s what—

John: That’s great.

Elizabeth: …gave birth to the idea.

John: Yeah. Yeah. And then you get the one friend that’s like “Yeah, I don’t have time to listen to your pod. Like just tell me. I’m right here.” You know? And you’re like “Then you’re not my friend. We’re not friends anymore. Done. You’re out.” Get out type of thing.

Elizabeth: I know.

John: Yeah. No, I love it.

Elizabeth: There’s always one.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That’s awesome. And so, do you have like a favorite memory from doing this or something that you’ve discovered from doing the podcast?

Elizabeth: You know, I think my favorite memories, and what my favorite thing about it currently going forward has been, is just it’s not just me doing it. I have a whole team of people now that are helping me out. And I got a co-host, you know. And then, like I said, I learned very quickly marketing is not for me. So I found one of my friends that marketing was for her. And so, now, I’ve got a co-host and then we’ve got a social media manager who—

John: Great.

Elizabeth: Really the one running the show to be perfectly frank. She’s the one that keeps us in line. And then my other friend, she’s a graphic artist. Graphic designer.

John: There you go.

Elizabeth: And you know, what a fabulous way to build her portfolio. And I said, “I can’t pay any of you. I’m so sorry, but do you wanna work on this project with me?” So she’s designing everything. The social media manager’s planning everything out. And it looks so much more official than I ever thought. And then the last piece, the last component was for that friend who said “I’m too busy to listen to your podcast.” We got one more person and she’s a blog writer.

John: Oh!

Elizabeth: And so, I say “Ok, you can’t listen to our podcast, fine. Go read the blog.”

John: Go read it. There you go. That’s fantastic. You have quite the operation going here.

Elizabeth: That’s what I was saying. That’s been my favorite part, is just building. And it’s all women. And we’re just like together we just created this thing that is way more than I ever thought it would be just by myself.

John: That’s fantastic.

Elizabeth: The team building and collaboration has been my favorite part for sure.

John: Yeah. No, I love it. And I’m sure that that translates to work in a skillset sort of way.

Elizabeth: Oh, absolutely. You know, I put a team together. And now, we’ve created something, you know? And before, especially when you’re just starting off in newer positions, like you don’t always get that level of leadership experience right away.

John: Right. Yeah.

Elizabeth: And so, it’s been really awesome to just be able to execute on a project like that and be able to show something for it, you know.

John: Right. Yeah.

Elizabeth: So it’s definitely worked out for work.

John: Yeah. No, that’s awesome. And I feel like that’s one of those things that when you’re in business school, no one told you “Hey, go start a podcast ’cause it will make you better at your job.” But it clearly does.

Elizabeth: No. Definitely not.

John: You know? But it clearly does. I mean, it’s straight up.

Elizabeth: I’m of that camp where it’s like your creativity and your creative pursuits absolutely can bolster you at whatever you’re doing to feed your face.

John: Yeah.

Elizabeth: And so, it’s been awesome for me to kind of explore it, the many different ways I can do that and how it does make me a better professional. I think it makes me a more whole person at work to have these things that I enjoy.

John: Yeah. Oh, so, so much. Yeah. ‘Cause I mean, I would imagine just talking about it and sharing it. Just you come alive, you know. You’re more energized and then finding out what someone else loves to do. They come alive. And talking about a macro in Excel is not making anyone come alive.

Elizabeth: It is not. I mean, shock upon shock, but it is not.

John: Right. Right? Exactly. And so, is it something that you do share at work?

Elizabeth: I tend to slip it into conversation when I can kind of thing.

John: Sure. Yeah.

Elizabeth: It’s sort of like if you’re just talking or what’s up or what’s going on. I’ll just say “Oh, you know, I’m working on my podcast.” And they’re like “You have a podcast?” I’m like “Yeah, it’s just for my friend basically to have a resource.” And they’re like “That’s awesome. That’s great.” Do any of them listen to it? I highly doubt it. But you know what?

John: It doesn’t matter.

Elizabeth: It doesn’t matter.

And I think it creates an environment that lets you mention the things that you’re just doing outside of work.

John: Yeah. I mean, if you were a sky diver, I mean, not everybody’s gonna skydive with you either, you know.

Elizabeth: Precisely.

John: It’s cool.

Elizabeth: So it doesn’t matter.

John: You do your thing. Tell me about it. Awesome. I’ll do my thing. I’ll tell you about it and then we’re all good.

Elizabeth: Exactly.

John: You know? Yeah. And that’s the thing. It’s like it doesn’t have to be set a world record and Joe Rogan number of downloads. Like who cares? Like I enjoy podcasting, I enjoy creating this show, and I feel like the I enjoy (blank) takes all the pressure off of any follow-up question on is it good ’cause it doesn’t matter if it’s good. I’m doing it for me. You know? Like if you’re anything creative or even athletic, am I any good at this? It doesn’t matter. I’m doing it for me type of thing.

Elizabeth: And that’s truly such an important point. Like that’s such a— I hate to say it, but that’s like a truth bomb right there because I think especially in the culture that we have today, there’s so much pressure where it’s like “Oh, well, if I do this and I fail, then I shouldn’t even start doing it in the first place.” Right? It’s like quitting before you’ve even begun. And the entire point of doing something creative, the entire point of having a hobby is just, as you said, it doesn’t matter if it’s good. What matters is if it brings you joy, if it makes you happy. Like it makes you creative. And honestly, I feel like creativity, once you’re not a child anymore, is like a skill that you have to continue to use—

John: Very much.

Elizabeth: …in order to retain it.

John: Yeah.

Elizabeth: You know? And so, by being creative outside of work, I can also be creative and adaptable at work.

John: Yeah.

Elizabeth: You know? And so, it’s so important. It’s so important. And you’re right. Who cares if it’s good? Who cares?

John: Right?

Elizabeth: It’s for you.

John: Yeah. Exactly.

Elizabeth: It’s just for you.

John: Exactly. Exactly. No. It’s so true. And from all the research that I’ve done, like that’s been the biggest thing, is people just being embarrassed about or they don’t wanna give themselves a label or they’re whatever. And it’s like “No, no, no.”

Elizabeth: Yeah.

John: It doesn’t matter.

Elizabeth: Are you embarrassed by that morning coffee that you treat yourself to every single day at Starbucks or Dunkin’?

John: Right.

Elizabeth: No. Because that’s for you. It’s just for you.

John: I love that. I love that.

Elizabeth: You’re not justifying it to anyone. Right? Of course, you might be justifying it to me as your accountant telling you you should probably spend your money in different ways, but that’s entirely different.

John: That’s a different story. Yeah. Or like if you’re in the Olympics and you get fourth place, so you don’t even get a medal, like is that embarrassing? No, that’s freaking awesome. You got fourth place in the world. Like who cares?

Elizabeth: Who cares?

John: It’s all good. It’s all good.

Elizabeth: And honestly, that mentality is so important to just let go of that fear of failure. Like that will take you through life, you know. Who cares? Who cares?

John: No. Yeah. And I mean, I’m just as guilty of that as anybody for sure.

Elizabeth: Oh, so no question.

John: Yeah. I mean, tTry your best and give your best shot, but also just keep things in perspective and all that. And so, I guess how much do you feel like it’s on an organization to encourage people to share their “ands” or to bring it up in conversation without punching them in the mouth, or disciplining, or whatever versus how much is it on the individual to just be like “you know what, hey, I got my little small circle here, I’m gonna start with this”?

Elizabeth: Right. I think it’s both. I really do. And I know that’s such a cop out answer, but I think—

John: No, no worries.

Elizabeth: …the reason it’s both is because the organization has to foster the environment for it. And the person has to actually make the choice to set the boundary to actively go pursue those things. Right? If this is something important to you, even if it’s like going to the gym, right, like let’s just forget that it’s something creative. Right? Like just going to the gym, say in the middle of the day on your lunch break, whatever in the morning, you have to create those boundaries anyway. So that’s on you. That’s your personal prerogative. It’s the same thing for if you’re trying to do something creative, carving out that time saying “Hey, I have another meeting” or “Hey, I have a meeting. It’s with myself.” But they don’t need to know. You know?

John: Right. Yeah.

Elizabeth: Carving out that time. Whereas I think too on the organization to offer the flexibility. Right? If your organization is saying you have to be— especially in this post pandemic world— if you have to be there 9 to 5 like every single day, that’s gonna hurt the flexibility that you have to go pursue that other thing. But hey, say that they have proper hours and boundaries, that organization— at least it’s like, you know, for sure that these are the hours it’s gonna be. Whereas an organization where the expectation is that you’re working to all odd hours of the night and there’s nothing really set, that’s not really fostering an environment for your people to have a life outside of work.

John: Right. Right.

Elizabeth: Right?

John: Yeah.

Elizabeth: So to an extent, it is systemic.

And I think especially it’s on management and top people because they have to set that tone. Right? Because when you hear that your boss is like going to do something with their family or going on a fun surf trip or whatever it is, especially on this West Coast, it’s different. It makes you feel like “Oh, I can go do those things.”

John: Exactly.

Elizabeth: And that is absolutely on the company and the management to create an environment where you feel it’s okay. And that’s why this podcast is so important because talking about it is part of that. Right? You have to be able to talk about it so you can go make time for it. So I think it’s absolutely both. And I also notice a difference from the West Coast to the East Coast on how more people are willing to talk about it on the West Coast.

John: Interesting.

Elizabeth: I feel like West Coast people have more hobbies. Just in my experience. I’m not saying it’s everyone. But as far as a work culture goes, it tends to be a little bit more acceptable to talk about out here than on the East coast where I’m originally from.

John: Right. Yeah. And it’s one of those too where, you know, like even the way you said it is people on the West Coast have more hobbies. It’s like maybe the people on the East Coast have the same number of hobbies, but they’re not talking about it, you know.

Elizabeth: Right.

John: So if a tree falls in a forest and no one is around, if a professional has 17 hobbies, but never shares any of them, then they might as well have zero. But I do agree that it’s not a trap when people at the top— and at the top could be a senior manager or a manager that’s over a small team of 5 or 6 people.

Elizabeth: Oh, absolutely.

John: You know, even the middle manager. You know, you can still set the tone at the top and have the most awesome group within the organization. And yeah, if you’re living it and if you’re asking people about theirs and making sure they’re doing them, like “When’s the last time you went on your surf trip? When’s the next one you have booked? Oh, you don’t have one booked. Well, let’s talk about it because you have something to look forward to now.” You know, something that enriches your life and brings you joy like you said earlier. It’s so crucial—

Elizabeth: Exactly.

John: …that people care, you know, just care really.

Elizabeth: It’s just showing of care, I think, more than anything.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I love that. The showing of the caring. Yeah, totally. Totally. And I guess, do you have any words of encouragement to people listening that maybe have an “and” and they feel like, well, it has nothing to do with my job, so no one’s gonna care about it?

Elizabeth: I would say people care because people love when you go for it. Right? Like when you’re pursuing a hobby, when you’re pursuing a passion, when you’re pursuing a dream, there’s something about seeing someone just going for something that they love and appreciate that everyone is really encouraged. And I say when you feel like it’s totally secondary, it doesn’t matter. It does because it makes you a better person to then do whatever it is. My grandma has great advice. She says do something to feed your face while you figure out what you actually wanna do. And you know what? If your job is just feeding your face right now and you’ve got a side hobby or side hustle, that’s really what’s bringing you joy, hey, you know what, that job is feeding your face and then you get to do what you actually wanna do on your off time and that’s great.

John: Exactly.

Elizabeth: That’s awesome.

John: Exactly. And make some of those cookies from Western PA while you’re at it.

Elizabeth: Exactly.

John: If you’re feeding your face. So there you go.

Elizabeth: Take a whole cookie table if you can.

John: Right? No, but that’s such great advice. You know, just take care of yourself and have an okay lifestyle while you’re trying to figure out what you wanna do type of thing.

Elizabeth: Exactly.

John: And have those hobbies on the side. They could be not income generating, which is great. They shouldn’t be. That takes all the pressure off. Just have fun.

Elizabeth: Absolutely. Just have fun, be creative, and that’s all you gotta do. That’s all it’s gotta be.

John: I love the question of just who else are you. You know, if I strip your job title away, like who else are you? And there’s so many great things that come from that. So this has been awesome, Elizabeth. Thank you so much for being a part of this, but I feel like I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning. So I thought it would be only appropriate to turn the tables. And since you got your own podcast and you’re a pro, I’ll be in the hot seat now and I’m all yours. So whatever you got, fire away.

Elizabeth: I appreciate it. Yes, I do have a fun one I am pretty excited about.

John: Okay.

Elizabeth: This is also just as a side note based on my latest Wikipedia rabbit hole.

John: Okay. All right.

Elizabeth: But if you went treasure hunting, what treasure would you search for?

John: Oh, wow. That is a really good one. I mean, since we’re talking about cookies, like I think something related to like the most delicious like chocolate chip cookie recipe or— I mean, ’cause the cookies would probably be stale by then. So probably the best chocolate chip cookie recipe out, yeah, is probably what would be in the treasure box.

That would be pretty fantastic.

Elizabeth: Sounds amazing.

John: Yeah. I mean, just since we’re on the topic, might as well keep the theme going here and yeah.

Elizabeth: Nothing wrong with that.

John: Yeah, yeah. I mean, something that’s just out of nowhere that like, I don’t know, maybe the Egyptians had thousands of years ago and it’s in a pyramid and it’s like “What?! No way!” Like that’s amazing.

Elizabeth: Oh, gosh.

John: So, yeah, yeah, yeah. Something like that. That would be great.

Elizabeth: That sounds amazing.

John: That’s a good question.

Elizabeth: All right. Second question. Thank you. Yeah, I was happy with that one. All right, second question. What do you consider to be the greatest love song of all time?

John: Oh, wow. That’s another good one. Baby Got Back is not one of them, I guess. So let me see here. I mean, I play the piano and I can play Unchained Melody, so I guess maybe—

Elizabeth: Oh! I love that song.

John: …because I can play it—

Elizabeth: That’s a great song.

John: Maybe that will count. And it’s an old classic,—

Elizabeth: That’s a good one.

John: …so we’ll say that one maybe.

Elizabeth: Level classic.

John: That’s a good one. Or a new one though that I think is good and it’s maybe not like a love song love song, but I love that new— It’s a Bieber song, but it’s The Ghost Song. It’s about his dad I guess or not his dad, but about him if you watch the music video.

Elizabeth: Well, there’s different kinds of love.

John: But yeah. No, no, but I think that’s a good song as well. And then Vance Joy has a new one out as well. I think it’s called Clarity and that’s a fun one too, but, yeah, I go with the old classics.

Elizabeth: I haven’t listened to that. I have to listen to that.

John: Yeah, yeah, that’s a good one too, so yeah. But yeah, I had to throw out a ridiculous one just in the beginning just for laughs.

Elizabeth: You got me.

John: Thank you so much, Elizabeth, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This was super, super fun.

Elizabeth: Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

John: Yeah, absolutely. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Elizabeth in action, or maybe connect with her on social media, or get a link to listen to the Entry Level Adulting podcast, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. Everything’s there. And while you’re on the page, please click the big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to episode 527 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiates you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, Audible, and a few other websites. All of the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and listening to it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon, and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Joe Garafalo. He’s the co-founder of Mosaic out of San Diego. And now, he’s with me here today. Joe, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Joe: Thanks, John. Excited to be here. I appreciate you having me on.

John: Yeah, this is gonna be a blast, but I have 17 rapid-fire questions. Get to know Joe right out of the gate here. So you’re buckled in, seatbelt ready?

Joe: Let’s do it.

John: All right, here we go. I like that. I like that. Easy one. Favorite color.

Joe: Blue.

John: Nice. Mine too. We can keep going. No, I’m just teasing. How about a least favorite color?

Joe: Least favorite color? Orange.

John: Oh, that’s a popular one or a popular to be least popular, I guess. How about are you more talk or text?

Joe: More text.

John: Yeah, okay. All right. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Joe: Favorite actor, probably Brad Pitt. Actress, Jennifer Lawrence.

John: Oh, okay. Yeah. I thought you were gonna say Angelina Jolie just to make it really awkward. How about— Oh this is a good one— Least favorite vegetable.

Joe: Least favorite vegetable, cauliflower.

John: Solid answer right there. Yeah, absolutely. How about Sudoku or Crossword when it comes to puzzles?

Joe: Crossword.

John: Crossword, okay. How about a favorite animal? Any animal at all.

Joe: Leopard.

John: Leopard. Okay.

Joe: Yeah. Big fan of the big cats.

John: Nice. Very cool. That’s awesome. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Joe: Star Wars all the way.

John: Okay. Yeah, me too.

Joe: Big fan. Bigger fan of Lord of the Rings though.

John: Oh, okay. I’ll accept that. Absolutely. Definitely. That’s another great one. How about your computer? More of a PC or a Mac?

Joe: I’m a Mac all the way to the dark side.

John: Oh, okay. All right. How about your toilet paper roll, over or under?

Joe: Over.

John: Over. Yeah. People are really passionate about that one. It’s funny to me. Both sides of it are equally passionate, which makes me laugh. I’m a huge ice cream fan. So do you get ice cream in a cup or a cone?

Joe: Ooh, I do both. I like both. It just depends on, you know, the circumstances. If I can pull off a cone, I’ll do a cone. But if I’m on the go or moving, I’ll do a cup.

John: Yeah, yeah. Or if you can sweet talk ’em in a cup, but the cone on top, that’s the magic right there ’cause I still need the calories from the sugar or the waffle coat. That’s for sure.

Joe: I’m more of like a wafer guy on the cone versus like the waffle.

John: Oh, the old school.

Joe: Yeah.

John: Okay. Nice. Okay. How about a favorite Disney character?

Joe: Oh man, there’s so many good ones.

John: I guess now Star Wars is part of that too, I guess. It’s all of them.

Joe: I’ll go— I think this is a Disney character in some controversy recently, but maybe Captain Jack Sparrow.

John: Oh yeah, okay. There you go. Right. Well, the character, not the person that voiced the character. There you go. Or acted the character. Yeah, that is a fun character actually. Jack Sparrow is awesome. What’s a typical breakfast?

Joe: Typical breakfast, black coffee.

John: Oh nice. Okay. Just going straight at it. Bam!

Joe: It’s a rocket fuel.

John: There you go. There you go. How about a favorite number?

Joe: The #4 has always been near and dear to my heart. Grew up a big hockey guy. New Jersey Devil’s fan. A guy named Scott Stevens was the captain for a long time.

John: Oh, yeah.

Joe: Yeah, he wore #4. I’ve been wearing it ever since.

John: Nice. As good a reason as any. Just a fun one. Balance sheet or income statement.

Joe: Income statement all the way.

John: Right. Right. Balance sheet is not paying the rent. It’s like here we go.

Joe: The balance sheet is decidedly unsexy.

John: Right. That might be the best line ever set on this podcast ever. And we are 527 episodes in. That’s impressive. That’s awesome. All right, we got two more. When it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Joe: Oh, man, I’m not an audio book guy. I would love like a real book, but just it’s easier to do e-Books these days.

John: Yeah. Plus, you can carry hundreds of them with you in your device.

Joe: Exactly. I do have a signed copy of the book Zero to One by Peter Thiel, which is probably my prized book possession.

John: Yeah. I mean, that leads right into the last question of what’s the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Joe: Can it be my dog?

John: Yeah! Absolutely. It can be whatever you want.

Joe: She’s definitely the light of my life.

John: That’s very cool. And what kind of dog is it?

Joe: She’s a Cavapoo, so half Cavalier and half mini poodle.

John: Oh, wow. Nice. And Coconut sounds like an appropriate name. That’s very cool. Well, let’s talk poker and how did you get started. Was it mostly when you were younger or did you have like that really crazy cool aunt that liked playing like Tatcha poker or something?

Joe: Yeah. So in the early days, my grandpa actually taught me the game and we used to play with like my grandpa, my uncles. And instead of chips, we used to use like pretzel rods—

John: Oh, yeah!

Joe: …as chips. And then I think I really got into it around I think it was like 2002-2003 when Chris Moneymaker won the World Series of Poker and ESPN started playing the World Series of Poker on TV. And I think like in high school then, all of our friends kind of like got the poker bug. So we would have a ton of games in high school. And then after playing a lot in high school, we went over to college, went to college in New York City. So it’s hard to find a poker game. So transitioned to the online world. Back then, Full Tilt poker was kind of like the leader in the space. So I played a lot there and got really lucky. Won a really big tournament. It was like a 5-dollar buy-in. One of those like 10,000 people would buy in. It was over a couple different days and that money helped me buy my first car in college. And ever since then,—

John: That’s awesome.

Joe: …I was addicted.

John: Yeah. ‘Cause then it’s like “What?! I’m up now forever.” You know?

Joe: Exactly.

John: Everything is house money. That’s awesome, man. That’s so cool. I mean, 10,000 people to win that is pretty awesome. I mean, is it a lot of bluffing or is it a lot of like just getting good cards or— I’m sure that there’s a strategy to a lot of it, I guess. If you’re not getting the cards, do you ride it out sometimes or how does that work?

Joe: Yeah, I think it’s like well-timed aggression is kind of the key. But I mean, to win a poker tournament like that, you’ve gotta get lucky. Right? Anyone who says differently is kind of lying. You need the cards to run in your favor. So a little bit of luck can’t hurt. I’d rather be lucky than good any day of the week.

John: Right. Right. Yeah. And then when you know you got the good hand, then you go all in. And like you said, the timed aggression, that’s exactly how it is. And that’s awesome. So do you have like some favorite memories? I’m sure playing with the pretzel sticks has gotta be one of the cool ones. I mean, that’s super fun.

Joe: Oh, yeah, I’ve definitely taken some fun poker trips with friends to Vegas or to the East coast. I was up to Connecticut where we just— We’d go there and we play poker for 72 hours straight. Just drink coffee and just play for hours.

John: That’s cool.

Joe: There was like a really poor memory though. Like one day in college towards my senior year, there was this event called Black Friday. And Black Friday is when like the Department of Justice shut down all the online poker sites and like everything just turned off.

John: Right.

Joe: It was like a big heartbreaking day. So definitely took more of a hiatus in poker when you couldn’t play online anymore and then kind of transitioned to “Hey, let’s still be a student in the game. Let’s read a lot of poker books. That way, I can at least stay in touch with the thing that I love.” And you know, during that hiatus of no online poker— It’s slowly coming back state by state, which has been really cool to see. I hope California does it soon. But I did pick up this book by Annie Duke. And if you don’t know Annie Duke, she’s one of the best poker players in the world. She’s super smart, really, really bright.

I think she’s like an Ivy League grad, but she wrote this book called Thinking in Bets. And she just talks about how there’s so much similarity to life and to business that there is to a poker game. And that really resonated with me ’cause it’s like my two passions, business and poker kind of converging. And I’ve seen so much similarity to starting the company and running the company to actually like being at a poker table playing in this high stakes game.

John: Yeah. And I was gonna ask like how much does this translate over? Because I mean, it’s a muscle group that you’re exercising outside of work. But then when you get to work and that opportunity arises maybe for the timed aggression or whatever, that sort of mentality, then it’s like “Well, I’m ready to go ’cause I’ve been doing this outside of work for days, and weeks, and years type of thing. So what do you feel like it does translate over?

Joe: Oh, man, there’s so many different points, I think. So the first thing, right, is when we were starting a company and I run a startup. We’re about 100 employees. We’ve raised close to 50 million in a venture-backed capital.

John: Congrats, man. That’s awesome.

Joe: Appreciate it. It’s not easy. It’s definitely not easy. In poker, you’re allotted this stack of chips. And those chips are your war chest. And just like in business, your cash balance is your war chest, and you have to allocate those chips for that capital the same way that you allocate chips to a poker hand. And a lot of times, you’re putting chips into the middle of the table. You’re allocating capital to the business on experiments, things that you’ve never done before that you’re hoping yield results.

But the key to being a good poker player is like folding and cutting your losses when things aren’t going your way. So how you manage your chip stack and how you place your bets on different experiments that you’re hoping will yield good results goes a long way. So that chip management and like cash management definitely see some similarities there.

John: That’s such a perfect analogy really when you think about it. You know, that’s exactly it. And at no point in college did anyone tell you “Hey, go learn how to play poker ’cause it will make you better at starting your business and running your business.” But it clearly does. That’s a cool byproduct. And another big thing in like the tournaments that we talked about earlier, 10,000 people, it’s patience. Right? It’s like you have to be patient. So poker teaches you patience. It teaches you how you need to make this stack of chips or stack of cash in business go a long way. And you can go a long way if you’re patient, but we also talked a little bit earlier about like the time aggression. Right?

So in poker, when you see the opportunity, you have to kind of attack it aggressively. And you know, there’s a saying in poker, “When you go all in, all your chips are in the middle of the table. And if this doesn’t work, then you’re out.” I think the same is true in business. Like if you see a market opportunity, you gotta go out there and seize it. ‘Cause if it’s not you, it’s gonna be somebody else. So the timed aggression and then like putting your chips all in, going after something you learn when to do it and when not to do it pretty quickly.

John: Yeah. Like the phrase, burn the boats. It’s like “Well, there’s no alternative. Like this is it. We gotta make this work.” And then, you know, you’re not sorta half leaning in. It’s like “No, we’re all in on this, let’s make this happen” type of thing.

Joe: I love that phrase. I love it.

John: Yeah. Because it’s good alliteration too. It’s a lot of Bs in there and all that, so it’s nice. So is poker something that comes up in conversation at work?

Joe: Maybe between me and my co-founders a little bit, but probably not in normal conversation with other employees.

John: Well, yeah. Or if you find out someone else does like poker, then magic happens.

Joe: Exactly.

John: ‘Cause some people just in their head think “Oh, well, people are gonna judge or people are gonna whatever.” Whatever their “and” is. And we’re not in sixth grade anymore. It’s like “No, no, now it’s cool. Like everything’s cool. As long as it’s not illegal or super taboo, you know, then it’s awesome.”

Joe: Exactly. And poker tends to have sort of a negative connotation with some people ’cause they consider it to be gambling, but I think there is just so much math that is rooted in the game that if you play the math and you play the odds right over a long time horizon, you win. And you’re not playing against the house, right? You’re playing against other people. So the things that you accumulate, the things that you pick up on are things that you can use to your advantage. And if you think about it, I lead our sales and marketing team over at Mosaic. And marketing was relatively new to me because before that, I was a finance guy. You and I were just talking we both cut our teeth at the big four. So marketing was this entire new world.
And the same way that you have to market your business, the product, your team, you have to market yourself at the poker table as well. If you’re too loose and you’re playing too many pots, people are gonna try to chase you ’cause they can assume the hands that you’re playing are probably not the greatest strength. Right? The same goes for marketing and business. It’s like where are you gonna put your chips? When are you gonna put your chips in? Are you establishing thought leadership? Are you just saying things that aren’t true? Are you representing hands that you don’t actually have? Those are a lot of similarities in how that works. Same goes for kind of like pricing.

John: Yeah. I mean, it’s just amazing how much just that mindset and that mentality just helps out. That’s really cool. And I guess how much do you feel like it matters that people have a hobby that work around you now at Mosaic, but even before and throughout your career? How much does it matter that people have these outside of work hobbies or interests? Or is it more like “Eh, do whatever you’re gonna do and like we don’t need to know about ’em” sort of thing or like where do you guys at like out of Mosaic— Are there ways that people share or is that a thing?

Joe: I think everybody’s got their hobbies, right? I think whether or not you can find how those hobbies relate to your everyday career, maybe it’s a different story. Like we have a bunch of employees over at Mosaic that are like big advocates of barbecue and smoking. I’m sure we can find some— Like I’m sure the patience thing is true. Like to make a good brisket, you need hours. You can’t like rush it.

John: Overnight.

Joe: Exactly.

John: Yeah. Right?

Joe: For sure. But I think those hobbies are important, right? Like to stay sharp, to avoid burnout, to find passion outside of work.

John: I totally agree and it’s cool to hear that like you know what some of those things are that light people up, you know. ‘Cause I would imagine that the conversation at work is a lot more fun when it involves some of those things on occasion than just all work all the time sort of thing like you said with the burnout and especially in the last 2 years. I mean, whew, I mean that’s been heavy.

Joe: It’s been heavy for everyone for sure. And even to this day. So I’ve been leading our marketing team for about 2-1/2 to 3 years now. We have a Friday retro where we just talk about how we did over the last week.

We still start that session with icebreakers every Friday just to hear like “Hey, what are you guys up to?” What’s going on in our personal lives. That way, we can kind of stay in tune. We’ve got some big fans of Disney characters as well. I’m gonna ask him what he thinks about my Jack Sparrow comment earlier.

John: Right? Yeah. I mean, it’s just the things that like light up our soul almost. And you can just see it in their eyes and in their tone of voice. And they’re animated and like all these things about the person and then, you know, you ask them about the work product and it’s very monotone. Sometimes it’s exciting and sometimes it’s animated, but not every time. But every single time somebody’s talking about poker or smoking meat, that’s awesome. Like every time, it’s awesome type of thing. And if you can harness that energy in the work setting, then magic.

Joe: For sure. And a lot of the roles that we have at the company are creative roles, right? So we’re talking about software engineers, we’re talking about marketers, we’re talking about product designers. So I think the hobbies and the influences outside of work help them kind of bring their best selves and most creative selves to the work product.

John: I love that. Talk about people having stigmas. I mean, I did comedy and everybody thinks they know what a standup comedian is, and what it’s like, and what standup comedy is. And you don’t. You know, it can be anything. I mean, there’s clean as well as super dirty. And no, not all of them are what you think they’re supposed to be, the comedians, you know, offstage or whatever. But that creative side of me did give me a total unplug from the accounting work that I was doing during the day when I still had the day job. You know? And so, it’s just so important to just like take your mind off of the work for even just a little bit to come back fresh. I feel like so many people just hammer away at the billable hour or at the hours in general. And it’s like that doesn’t always equal best product at the end. So it’s encouraging to hear that a founder, someone like you is also thinking that way, that I’m not crazy I guess.

Joe: No, definitely not crazy. I mean, even if poker’s not your thing, it’s like maybe you’re a competitive runner and you’re again ready for the marathon training and competing, trying to beat not only other folks in the field, but like your personal best or trying to get under a certain number of hours in the marathon. Those things go a long way to like continuing to build your competitive drive in the workplace. Not only so you can beat the competition, but also so that like you can bring your best self to the office and continue to push yourself and grow and advance your career.

John: Yeah. Plus, those runners, man, I mean, they have that inner fortitude when like the going gets tough. It’s like “Yeah, no, we’re only on like mile 17. We’ve got plenty more in us.” And you’re like “I’m going to home.” Like crazy.

Joe: My legs hurt, I can’t breathe, but you keep pushing.

John: Right? And they just power through and I’m like “Oh, God bless you guys.” No, but that’s such a great point. And different people have different expertise, if you will, from their “ands” that they are able to bring to the table. And knowing what their “and” is means that now I can tap into your expertise a little bit more and let you light it up as well, which is cool. Do you have any words of encouragement to people listening that maybe feel like I’ve got “and”, but no one’s gonna care ’cause it has nothing to do with my job?

Joe: I think I would encourage everybody to find their “and”, right? Like you have a long life to live. There’s many things, many career choices that you’re gonna have. And what you do, who you are at the end of it is the product of all the experiences that you’ve had. So you never know when those things are gonna come up. And learning new skills and how those skills that you’ve learned translate to other things, you’d be shocked to see some of the connections that get formed.

John: Yeah, no, and I love that too of where you said, you know, you’re gonna have several different careers, but that “and” is gonna be with you forever. I mean that poker was with you from college, to big four, to other jobs, to now mosaic, so that’s never changed. Now, you’re in marketing. It’s like still poker. Like you’re not doing the accounting. You’re not doing the finance, but still the poker is there. And that’s sort of the eye of the hurricane I guess, if you will, where everything else is just swirling around and changing, and that’s just steady.

Joe: And it’s not even business, right? Like in a poker game, everybody has imperfect information. And you’re doing your best to make the best decisions with the imperfect information that you have. So for me, poker can apply not only to business, just everyday life and everyday decisions. It’s like how do you weigh the consequences, or the risks, or the cause and the effect of the things that you’re gonna do. And you can’t always know the answer. Right? Annie Duke’s book, she talks a lot about kind of separating the outcome from the decision. And I think that principle alone can like stay with a person through life.

John: Yeah, that’s pretty deep right there. Yeah. Not being outcome based but just if you gave it your best, well, then that’s what you can actually focus on. Sometimes the outcome is out of your control.

Joe: Exactly. And it’s math, right? So I think the interest in math from high school days keep the interest in finding ways to use math in different games. And the odds are in your favor, but sometimes those 30%, 20% chances do come true, in which case you made the right decision. It wasn’t the outcome that you wanted. But if you keep making the right decisions, you’ll eventually get those outcomes.

John: Right. Exactly. No, that’s awesome, man. Well, this has been super fun. I feel like before we wrap it up though, I peppered you with so many questions at the beginning that it might be fair if I turn the tables and make this the first episode of The Joe Garafalo Podcast. So if you want to ask me any questions, I’m all yours. Fire away. Whatever you want to ask, I’m all yours.

Joe: Yeah, it sounds like one of your “ands” is comedy. How has comedy come back to help you throughout like all the different careers that you have? And I know at least three, right? You had the accounting job and the big four. You’ve had the podcast host and comedians. I’m curious how comedies continued to help you advance you.

John: So I started it when I was at PWC. We were at a training in LA. There were five of us that rented a car from the hotel and went to the improv in Hollywood to see— Whose Line Is It Anyway would tape during the day or in the evening. And then they would come down and do 45 minutes uncensored in the middle of a 3-hour standup show of a bunch of comedians doing 15- to 20-minute sets. Yeah. And so, I think in PWC days and in my accounting. I mean, it just always gave me a puzzle to be working on and just figuring out even just like how humans think and how they work, but also just a sense of humor about things. Like if you’re not laughing, you’re crying, so let’s laugh.

I mean, just the lens that I see the world through is just different than other people because I see absurdities, or incongruencies, or things that are humorous that not everybody does. And then as a comedian, it’s your job to then paint the picture for strangers so they see what you’re seeing. And so, it made me a better communicator for sure, and it gave me an identity. I mean, the whole What’s Your “And”? started because 12 years after I left my first PWC office, someone I never met— ’cause he was in the tax department and I’m one of the coolest CPAs that doesn’t know how taxes work— he remembered me and told the meeting planner “Oh, I know John Garrett. That’s the guy who did comedy at night at this huge conference.” And I’m like “I don’t even know who you are.”

And I feel like we all deserve to be remembered 12 years later. And it’s not gonna be for the work, or the number of hours, or the whatever. You know, it’s gonna be for who you are as a person. And a lot of times, we don’t let the human side out and companies don’t even care about the human side or even know there’s a human side that’s there, you know. So it’s really helped me to be confident when I’m on stage speaking, a lot of keynotes at conferences, a lot of addressing partner groups or C-suites. Look, I’ve done a Friday night late show in New York City, so I’m not scared of any group of executives for a second. It’s just I don’t care. You know, I’ve auditioned for Last Comic Standing, I’ve done all kinds of high intense shows and a lot of pressure, so I got this. So it is certainly a skill that, similar to poker, plays out in a lot of different ways for sure.

Joe: Yeah.

John: Plus, I mean, it’s just fun to laugh, so—

Joe: Oh, yeah.

John: …that’s always good.

Joe: Yeah. If you ever need a new career, I’m sure you’d be a killer sales rep if you can make people laugh.

John: Right? That’s true actually. Who knows? Yeah. It’s like whatever. “But John said—” “Oh, he’s a comedian. Mosaic doesn’t actually do that. It doesn’t cook your dinner also.” It’s like “What? Who told you that?” That’s funny. That’s awesome, man. Very cool. Well, I appreciate you taking time to be a part of What’s Your “And”? and really appreciate it, Joe. Thanks.

Joe: Awesome, John. Well, thanks again for having me. It was fun to be here.

John: Totally. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Joe outside of work or maybe connect with them on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture and don’t forget to read the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread. That who you are is so much more than what you.

Welcome to episode 525 of What’s Your “And”? this is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show’s about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. It’s so kind of the Independent Press Awards to name it a distinguished favorite a couple of months ago. And the book goes more in depth into the research behind why these outside work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it. And thanks for writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Elandas Miller. He’s a senior business analyst and Scrum master at Cognizant Softvision in Atlanta, Georgia. And now he’s with me here today. Elandas, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Elandas: Thanks, John. I’m super happy to be here. Thanks for taking the time on this Thursday afternoon to talk to me about what I like to do when I’m not doing my business analyst and Scrum master work ’cause I love talking about stuff outside of the regular 9 to 5.

John:: No, that’s awesome. And you’re the first Scrum master I’ve had on the show, so what is that?

Elandas: Yeah. Scrum is like a methodology or framework where you’re using like the software development lifecycle. So it’s like a whole bunch of like manifestos and all type of things you should do and not do and just a little interesting.

John:: That’s a cool label, man. I love it. I might just add that to mine just for kick.

Elandas: Sounds fancy.

John:: It is fancy, but I have some rapid fire questions to get to know you a little bit better. And we’re not gonna count the Scrum question as one of them. So here we go. So here we go. Favorite color?

Elandas: Blue.

John:: Blue. Solid. Mine too. How about a least favorite color?

Elandas: Orange.

John:: Oh, okay. Yeah, that’s a pretty good one too. Yeah. And pretty popular least favorite if that makes sense.

Elandas: It’s weird color.

John:: It is. Yeah. Yeah. ‘Cause it can get bright in a hurry. And then how about do you prefer talk or text?

Elandas: I’m definitely more of a texter.

John:: Oh, okay. All right. That works. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Elandas: Favorite actor is— I have like two of them— Will Smith and Leonardo DiCaprio. And my favorite actress I think is Angelina Jolie.

John:: Okay, yeah, there you go. I thought you were gonna say Will Smith and Chris Rock, and I would’ve been like “What?!” Like that’s amazing.

Elandas: Yeah. I don’t know.

John:: That was wild. That was wild. Oh, here’s one. Cats or dogs?

Elandas: Definitely dogs.

John:: Definitely dogs. Me too, man.

Elandas: Yeah.

John:: Absolutely. How about a favorite movie of all time?

Elandas: Man, I’m a moviegoer, so it’s hard for me to pick one.

John:: Oh, so more than one. Go nuts.

Elandas: I like Transformers, The Bad Boys movies, Harry Potter movies.

John:: Oh, you’re all over the board on that. Okay.

Elandas: Yeah. Toy Story.

John:: Yeah. That’s a great movie, man.

Elandas: Yeah.

John:: That’s such a great movie. Very good. Okay. All right. How about when it comes to puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzle?

Elandas: Oh, man, all three of those give me headaches. I like Sudokus.

John:: Oh, okay. All right. All right. I was gonna say none of them counts too, man. That’s all good. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Elandas: Star Wars for sure. I’m a ’90s baby, so I think I grew up on Star Wars mostly.

John:: How about your computer? More of a PC or a Mac?

Elandas: I think more of a Mac now.

John:: Oh, really? Okay. All right. That’s awesome. And I am not cool enough to even go into a Mac store I don’t think. They’re like “Sir, we’re gonna have to ask you to leave.” It’s like “What?”

Elandas: I have a Mac computer, but I have an Android phone, so I get a lot of pushback on that.

John:: That’s normally the opposite.

Elandas: Yeah.

John:: That’s amazing. All right. Good for you. How about toilet paper roll over or under?

Elandas: I don’t pay too much attention to it to be honest.

John:: Yeah. As long as it’s there.

Elandas: Yeah.

John:: Like as long as it’s there. All right. There we go. How about ice cream in a cup or in a cone?

Elandas: Definitely in a cone.

John:: Yeah. Okay.

Elandas: Messy, but the cone is extra sugary.

John:: Exactly. You get some extra bonus there. There you go. How about a favorite Disney character? There’s like a gazillion of ’em, so really anything animated I’ll take. Like it’s fine.

Elandas: We recently watched a Goofy movie. so I would say Max. He’s goofy’s son, Max.

John:: Oh! Wow! I didn’t even know Goofy had a son. Okay, all right. Yeah, I’m a huge Goofy fan.

Elandas: He doesn’t have a wife, but he has a son. I don’t know how that works.

John:: Right? Right? I don’t either. I mean, half of ’em aren’t wearing pants, so who knows? It just happens. How about, since you have the accounting background here, balance sheet or income statement?

Elandas: Definitely balance sheet.

John:: Okay, there you go. Three more. A typical breakfast.

Elandas: Pancakes, eggs, bacon, toast.

John:: Okay, there you go. All out.

Elandas: Yes. I love breakfast.

John:: No lunch and no dinner. Just all out.

Elandas: The most important meal of the day.

John:: Your own Denny’s Grand Slam right there. That’s great. How about a favorite number?

Elandas: I like 33. I was a 33 growing up playing sports.

John:: Nice. That’s a good number too. Yeah. There you go. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Elandas: Right now, I think the favorite thing that I have is I have a Quest 2 VR set, so I can play like VR games and put it on my headset and stuff. That’s pretty fun.

John:: Yeah. That’s awesome. Okay. Very cool. Very cool. So let’s talk, yeah, I guess just planning sporting events and activities and getting people together. Like how did that start?

Elandas: Yeah. So I always grew up playing sports. I think I started playing baseball like at 4 years old. I played all the way through like elementary, middle school, play a little bit of high school. And then college, I played like IM sports. I went to University of Georgia. Go Dogs!

John:: Yeah, you got the national championship finally. There you go. All right.

Elandas: Shameless plug out there.

John:: Absolutely, man. Absolutely.

Elandas: Like after graduating, I wanted to get more involved into like being active and stuff ’cause I was just working like 9 to 5 and come back home going to sleep, being stuck in traffic, and doing that every day over and over again. So I joined like a sports league, and I noticed there were some like gaps that could be filled. So I came up with the idea of like hosting some sporting events, trying to get people together, and then just kind of like making it a more of a whole entire experience. So we have like all types of stuff going on at one time, and we just do like live music. Some local artists may come out there and perform. We got like kickball going, and dodge ball, and Ultimate Frisbee. So it’s a pretty fun time.

John:: And it’s all happened at the same time or is it like we’re gonna go from dodge ball to Ultimate Frisbee?

Elandas: Yeah, we go from like kickball to dodge ball.

John:: Oh, okay.

Elandas: Frisbee then kickball. It just depends on—

John:: It’s like an all afternoon sort of a thing.

Elandas: Yeah.

John:: It’s a commitment.

Elandas: It’s like 3 to 4 hours. Yeah.

John:: Good for you, man. And what was the first one?

Elandas: It was back in 2017. I think it’s September 2017. Me and my friends basically got together. We had like some food and then we just got together, played some games, just played some Frisbee and stuff like that. Some little bit of kickball. So it was pretty cool. It was very chill. We didn’t have that many people come out there at that one. But yeah, just having fun. So that’s the most important thing always, just to get people together, laugh a little bit and have fun.

John:: And I love how it’s an experience. I mean, you got the local music going, you know, live music going as well. And there’s food and there’s all kinds of stuff. So it’s not just “Hey, show up, play kickball, and then leave.”

Elandas: Exactly. Yeah.

John:: It’s “No, no, we’re hanging out. We’re gonna get to know each other.” Yeah. That’s awesome, man. I love it so much. And do you have like a more rewarding memory from doing this?

Elandas: Yeah. Well, a lot of my events have a lot of different fun memories from ’em. So I think just the funny moments of like adults trying to kick a ball, girls and guys missing the ball, and people get hit in the head. We don’t condone getting hit in the head, but it’s always pretty funny when someone’s head go “Pook!” You get hit in the head with the ball. But we always try to like aim for the lower part of the body.

John:: I’m also not a good thrower either, so what do you want, you know?

Elandas: Some people kicking in park home run, so they’re just running around the whole base the whole time. People just chasing them, trying to tag them, all kinds of stuff out there.

John:: That’s so great, man. That’s super awesome. I thought you were gonna be like the time OutKast came down and then I was like “What?!”

Elandas: We’re not there yet. That’s the goal. To get some big artists from Atlanta to come out.

John:: Soon enough, man. Soon enough. After we get you on What’s Your “And”?, that’s gonna happen. They listen. I’m pretty sure OutKast listens to this, but that’s so cool to hear, man. And kudos for you for just creating it from scratch and making it happen. And do you feel like any of the skillset, whether it’s from playing the sports or from organizing these events, translates to work?

Elandas: Yeah, definitely. So like as a Scrum Master, you have to like roll with the punches. You have to like be able to lead your team, and get everybody on the same page, and organize people. And I think entrepreneurship has a lot of similar qualities from like how I do my 9 to 5. It’s a lot of overlap of different characteristics and skills that’s needed to be entrepreneurs. So, definitely a lot of translation.

John:: Yeah. And it’s cool how the work makes the entrepreneur side of you stronger, but then probably that muscle group as well then, you know, it’s just an infinite loop going back and forth. And it’s not why you do the sports leagues, but it certainly is a cool added benefit to it as well. And it’s cool to hear that that’s a thing. Plus, I mean, I imagine— I mean, who doesn’t like to just kickball and stuff like that? It’s like be a kid again. You know, like why not? That’s cool, man. I love it. That’s super awesome. And is this something that you talk about with colleagues at work?

Elandas: Yeah, I used to talk about a little bit more, but not recently.

John:: Sure. Well, COVID made everything weird.

Elandas: Yeah. Correct. We don’t have as much like office conversations ’cause most of us still work remote. We go in office like maybe a couple times a month or so. We’re not really talking too much about our entrepreneurial endeavors or side projects.

John:: Right. I mean, whether it makes money or not, it’s still a cool thing on the side.

Elandas: Yeah, it is.

John:: And that’s why the “and” is I’m a Scrum Master and I just love sports. Like I love it so much, I’m organizing it, you know. That’s like I can’t buy the Falcons, but we can play flag football.

Elandas: Exactly.

John:: You know, like there’s that.

Elandas: Basically, that’s how I came out. Like I wanted to be an owner of a game or sports team one day, so maybe this will lead to it or just kind of like loving the game, being involved. I love playing anything so like you catch me playing volleyball, or tennis, or swimming. Not a great swimmer, but I just like being active.

John:: Yeah. I love how you said that. Like you don’t have to be good at it. I mean, this isn’t the Olympics, so it doesn’t matter. You know, it brings me joy and that’s all that matters. Like that’s the thing I find is so many people wanna be this alpha something or whatever. And it’s like “No, no, I’m doing it for me.” You know, I enjoy swimming. Well, am I good at it? Who cares? I enjoy it. I didn’t ask for your approval like type of thing. So that’s cool, man. And it’s cool that you share it too ’cause sometimes I think we can get our own heads of “Well, people are gonna judge me for playing kickball.” It’s like “Well who plays that after eighth grade?” “I do.”

Elandas: Yeah.

John:: You know?

Elandas: Play a lot of stuff.

John:: Yeah. Did it ever cross your mind as like when people might something? I don’t know.

Elandas: No, not really. I never really thought about what people would think about me being in sports leagues or hosting events. As long as it makes me happy and I have fun, that’s the most important thing. That’s all I really worry about.

John:: Yeah, maybe the toy story thing, they’re gonna think about—

Elandas: The Toy Story, yeah, they might judge me on Toy Story.

John:: Well, then they’re not your friends anyway, so they they should get out. Get out. Yeah. But that’s cool, man. ‘Cause, I mean, I was the same way. People were like “What’d you do this weekend?” “Well, you know, I did this comedy club.” Like “What?” I was like “Oh, I didn’t know I was supposed to tell you what I actually did.” Yeah. Like I didn’t know. Like are we making stuff up now? Like I didn’t know. So yeah, that’s awesome, man. And do you feel like connections are different from people that you have shared things with or people that are interested in these versus people that don’t know that side of you?

Elandas: Not necessarily. I feel like I’m a pretty simple person like what you see is what you get. So sometimes I share people depending on like where I meet ’em or what type of circumstances. And if they ask like what other projects I have going on or something like that, then I share. But if I’m like at a networking event, of course, I’m sharing like what I’m doing like my entrepreneurial endeavors and what projects I’m working on. But definitely, I do share by people who like has interest. Maybe we’re talking about like sports and they say like they hoop or like they play flag football or something. I’m like “Oh, I also host events. You should come out to one of our events or whatever.” But usually, it just depends. I don’t think I have a closer relationship with people who don’t know who do know. But usually, my closer friends do know that I host events cause they’ve been to the actual events.

John:: Yeah. Right? But I mean, it’s like you just have something different to talk about at work besides the work. It’s just a human connection there that’s cool above and beyond the work. And so, that’s great where it’s you have something that you can straight up invite them to. It’s like “Oh, you this. Well, we’re doing it in 2 weeks. Why don’t you come?” And then all of a sudden, they’re like “Well, I used to play. I’m not very good at it.”

Elandas: I’m getting old. My back is going out or my knees.

John:: Right, right, right. Okay. We’ll call you coach.

Elandas: You referee the game for us.

John:: Right, right. Referee. There you go. That’s so cool, man. That’s so cool. And I guess one thing that I’d like to go back and forth on or think about is how much do you feel like it’s on an organization, a company to create space for people to be able to share or to even care that people have an outside of work life? You know, basically, my whole thing is are you live in your best life? Managers should be asking or how much is it on the individual to just, you know what, I’m just gonna start my little circle and get going from there?

Elandas: Yeah. I think management could possibly like make a safer place to share like what people do outside of work. Or as long as it’s like positive, I don’t think any crazy stuff, but—

John:: No, no, no. Then it’s unprofessional.

Elandas: Yeah.

John:: Like, yeah, I think that’s not good.

Elandas: Keep it professional or whatever.

John:: But just, you know, not illegal. Let’s start there. You know? Or taboo.

Elandas: Exactly.

John:: Or controversial. Just what lights you up?

Elandas: You just ask like “Hey, how’s your weekend or like what did you do specifically this weekend?” Usually, ours is pretty like top of the layer conversation. So like, yeah, we hang out with friends, or went to the movies, or stuff like that. Yeah.

John:: Yeah. But then I find if you listen and then have one or two follow-up questions, then you get to the cool stuff. “Oh, you went to the movies. What movie did you see?” And then it’s like “Oh, how did you like it” or “Oh, did you see the first one” or whatever type of thing. Now, all of a sudden “bam” like we’re going back and forth or I didn’t know you were Transformers too.

What” Like now, all of a sudden, we’re talking about all that.

Elandas: Yeah.

John:: Yeah. So that’s awesome. It’s just listening and having a follow-up question or two and then that’s where you can sort of crack it open ’cause you’re right. It’s like “How you doing?” “Fine. Fine.” Well, that’s not being honest.

Elandas: Exactly. It’s kinda going with emotions at that point.

John:: Yeah. And it’s not really creating that true connection for sure. So do you have any words of encouragement for people listening that are like, you know what, I have a hobby but I don’t think anyone’s gonna care ’cause it has nothing to do with my work?

Elandas: Yeah. Definitely. I would say you want to share as much as possible or whoever you’re comfortable with or at least try to get into a community. I think communities, there’s a lot of people that have similar hobbies that we all share. So just being able to get into that community or like I know they have online communities, in-person communities. You have like discordmeetups.com, even Airbnb communities these days. So there’s a lot of different areas or places that you can kind of be comfortable, be yourself, and be able to talk about those things that you might not be comfortable talking with your like other core group of friends or they might not have like the same interest. So just put yourself out there. Look for those communities and those safe places and just have fun and enjoy it.

John:: Yeah, I love it ’cause, I mean, only good comes from that, you know. When it’s one of those things that’s just like I genuinely light up from this and all of a sudden you meet someone else and it’s like “What?” I mean, if you never told anybody you liked like kickball, then you’re just sitting around getting angry that you can’t play kickball. But all of a sudden, you start to share with people “Hey, I like playing kickball?” “You too? All right. Now, we got a team. All right. Now, we get another team. Now, let’s play.” You know?

Elandas: Yeah. It’s like “He told me that he liked it too. Maybe we can get together with him. And she’s told me that she liked it. She played last week, so maybe we all can get together.”

John:: And then you’re like “You know what? I’m just gonna create the whole league. Like how about we just go all out on this?” Like that’s cool, man. That’s awesome and such great advice. You know, find that community so you don’t feel alone ’cause you’re not the only one I promise.

Elandas: Yeah. Exactly.

John:: You’re not the only one. And even if no one does it, they at least are interested in it.

Elandas: Yeah. There’s a lot of people who may not share. Like for example, I’m a pretty big anime fan, but I don’t really share a lot of people that I like anime, but a lot of my friends, we watch it together and talk about it. We share each other passwords for like the animation online Crunchyroll account. So the more you share, the more you know things that come to you, you get more and more great things happen to you that way.

John:: I love that. That’s such great advice right there. The more you share, the more the universe opens up for you. I like that. Yeah. ‘Cause we always feel like, well, I’m the only one that. Nah, you don’t know that. You don’t know that. And I’m gonna challenge you that you’re not. So like unless it’s like sword swallowing, okay, I’ll give you that one. You’re probably the only one on that one.

Elandas: Like spinning fire.

John:: Right. Yeah. You never know. I mean, maybe not. There was somebody on the podcast that’s actually a fire breather.

Elandas: Oh, wow. That’s cool.

John:: Yeah. So it’s like “Well, I know one.” So it’s kind of cool. But yeah, that’s awesome, man. Such great advice and I really appreciate, yeah, you being a part of this. And I feel like since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning that we turn the tables and we’ll make this The Elandas Miller Podcast. And so, I’m all yours man. Thanks for booking me on as a guest. I booked myself I’m not gonna lie, but like here we go.

Elandas: I had a question for you, John. You do a lot of different stuff, so I was like reading your bio. So I know you went to school at Notre Dame. You got just like CPA. You did music at one point. You’re like an author. So like how do you find time to like do all these interests, a podcast? Like how do you balance all these things that you love doing?

John:: That’s a great question ’cause, I mean, you know, I encourage people to not just have one “and.” Like you can have more. The title of the book should probably be What’s Your “Ands”?, you know, with an S, but that’s probably not grammatically correct because they have more than one, you know. And you don’t have to do them all every day, you know. You just have to be intentional about making time for them. Yeah. In the fall, every Saturday for 4 hours, I’m watching Notre Dame football. And I’m probably also watching another game or two as well, you know. But you just make time for it. And if it’s important to you, if it brings you joy, then go do it. And that’s on Saturday. So I’m not doing the podcast on Saturdays. I’m not, you know, any other things. And writing a book though, whoo, that is a process. Like you really gotta wanna write the book. Yeah, I’m really proud of how it turned out. So you know, that’s that side of it. But yeah, I mean, I love going to concerts as well, but it doesn’t have to be something that’s every day, or every week, or even every month. It’s like twice a year I like to do a 5K walk for charity. Okay, cool, go do that. You know? Like whatever it is. But be intentional about making time for it even just a little bit so you don’t—

Elandas: Yeah. Be intentional.

John:: Yeah. ‘Cause you just gotta carve it out ’cause it’s like, well, how do you make time to plan this league and plan the game? Well, you just do it ’cause I love it.

It brings me joy, and I’m passionate about it, and it’s important to me. And I feel like for so many people, we let work become the #1 most important ’cause I need money to pay my mortgage. And it’s like, well, yeah, but also there’s other things that are important too. And so, it doesn’t have to be a zero-sum game of it’s only one thing. It’s like “No, no, I’m actually passionate about a couple things and work’s one of ’em, but so is anime, and so is kickball, and so is going to movies.” “All right. Awesome.” And then it creates more connection points to actually relate to you.

Elandas: Yeah. Like everybody has so many different interests. So like I said, sharing ’em, and being a part of the community, and then being intentional to doing what you love is definitely something that makes people happy in the long run for sure.

John:: No, I love it, man. That’s so perfect. Well, thank you so much, Elandas, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This was super, super fun.

Elandas: Thank you so much.

John:: Yeah. And then you better believe when I’m in Atlanta, I’m coming down and we’re playing something. But everybody, if you wanna see some pictures of Elandas in action or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 523 of What’s Your “And?” And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills. Like who else are you beyond the job title?

And just a quick plug here for globaldogart.com. Michael Puck was a guest on the show last year, and his “and” was dog photography. And he wanted me to let you know that research has shown that pictures of dogs foster social connections amongst people, promote trusting relationships and business settings. They also increase our well-being, reduce stress, all things that make work better. And so, he’s teamed up with other dog photographers all over the world to create globaldogart.com. Check it out. Bring some dog art to work. The really cool thing is is that all the Global Dog Art Gallery contributes 100% of their proceeds to save 1 million dogs by 2030. So check that out, globaldogart.com. And also check out the book. It’s on whatsyourand.com and on Audible as well. So please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Alex Romero. She’s a virtual CFO living in Pueblo, Colorado, and a 2022 AICPA outstanding young CPA Award winner. And now, she’s with me here today. Alex, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Alexandria: Yes, thank you for having me. I’m very excited.

John: No, this is gonna be a blast. We’ve met virtually several times with the Colorado Society things and what have you, but I have some rapid fire questions I never asked you before. So before I decide to accidentally go running with you, I figured it’d be something fun. So here we go. Let’s start you out with Star Wars or Star Trek?

Alexandria: Star Wars. And only because of Baby Yoda. He was the key that I finally was like “Okay, they got me. They got me.”

John: Yeah, definitely, definitely. Baby anything really, that will get you. There you go. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Alexandria: PC for my computer, but everything else in my life is Apple. Apple Watch.

John: Oh, okay.

Alexandria: Yeah. We’re an Apple family except for our actual work computer.

John: The computer. Okay. Interesting. All right. All right. How about more oceans or mountains?

Alexandria: So I feel like this is a funny one ’cause I live right next to the mountains.

John: Right.

Alexandria: But totally the ocean. I love the ocean. I love the beach and yeah. And I have those Rocky Mountains, you know, whatever.

John: Right. Yeah. But it’s because the mountains are always there. I mean, in Denver, I can see them all the time where the beach I can’t, so it’s special.

Alexandria: Yeah. Absolutely.

John: It means I’m on vacation. I had to get on a plane to go somewhere. It’s probably warm, you know. We’re good. So yeah, absolutely on that one. How about— I’m a huge ice cream fan. Ice cream in a cup or in a cone?

Alexandria: Absolutely cup. I’m not a cone fan. It’s gotta be a cup.

John: It’s messy. It gets all over. Yeah. Totally. Totally.

Alexandria: Yeah. Yeah. I’m weird. I don’t like the crunchy with it too.

John: Oh, okay. Interesting.

Alexandria: I know.

John: All right.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: All right. Yeah. We’ll still hang out. It’s all good. It’s all good. How about balance sheet or income statement?

Alexandria: Gosh, that’s a hard one ’cause I feel like they’re married. I mean, you can’t have one without the other.

John: Okay. With a full trial balance. You just want it all.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: All right.

Alexandria: Yeah. So I don’t think I’m gonna choose. I think I like everything. I wanna know the entire picture.

John: Okay. Look at you. All right, there we go. That’s a good CFO right there. That’s what that is. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Alexandria: Gosh, you know, I really like different teas.

John: Oh, okay.

Alexandria: Yeah. So there’s a lot of tea shops. And so, I feel like that’s more of an elegant like adult, you know, when you think about it. Like I go to teas, so that’s my thing. I really like different teas.

John: That’s cool. No, that absolutely. that definitely is. How about heels are flats?

Alexandria: So I do heels all the time except when running. It’s definitely flats, and I have quite the shoe collection for running shoes.

John: There you go. Do you have a brand of choice?

Alexandria: I do. Brooks And they come out with specialty shoes more than they should because I always think I need to have the Thanksgiving shoes, and the Christmas shoes, and the summer shoes. Yeah.

John: They get you.

Alexandria: All the shoes.

John: There you go.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: There you go. That’s awesome. Very good. How about a favorite number?

Alexandria: I’m gonna go with 3 ’cause it’s a magic number. Schoolhouse Rock!

John: Yeah.

Alexandria: Going back to old school.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so good. So good. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Alexandria: So I really like having an actual book, but I actually read ’em and get through ’em when they’re audio, so it’s really hard ’cause there’s nothing better than having a library book. I came from a library, so I do appreciate that. But I actually will finish them in a reasonable time if I’m listening to it.

John: Yeah. And plus, you can do double speed, or one and a half speed, or whatever.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: So yeah, it can move along pretty quickly. How about a favorite animal? It could be any animal at all.

Alexandria: I’m gonna go with my own dog, Matterhorn, ’cause he is just so awesome.

John: Oh. Okay. And he’s got a cool name.

Alexandria: He is.

John: I mean, Matterhorn. That’s like incredible.

Alexandria: Yeah. So he’s a Great Pyrenees. So he’s big, and white, and loves the mountains. So Matterhorn was just the most appropriate name.

John: That’s awesome.

Alexandria: So awesome.

John: I love it. That’s very cool. Very cool. How about when it comes to puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Alexandria: You know, I don’t do many puzzles. But you know, when I was little, I used to really like the normal puzzles.

John: Yeah. Jigsaw puzzles.

Alexandria: Yeah, Jigsaw.

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Alexandria: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John: Yeah. There you go.

Alexandria: Yeah. So I’ll go with that.

John: Okay. All right. All right.

Alexandria: I have memories of those.

John: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. How about a favorite color?

Alexandria: Pink. Absolutely.

John: Pink. Okay.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: That was a slam dunk.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: There you go. There you go.

Alexandria: Easy.

John: How about a least favorite color?

Alexandria: Brown.

John: Oh yeah, that’s definitely a very unpopular answer for sure. How about are you more talk or text?

Alexandria: Definitely text. I feel like I took all the talk out in middle school and high school. I was one of those call waiting, you know, all night. And so, I talked myself out.

John: That’s so funny. That’s so funny. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Alexandria: So I would say Tim Curry and that’s because—

John: Oh, yeah!

Alexandria: …he’s in a lot of my favorite movies. So, Rocky Horror Picture Show, old school Annie from the ’80s, and—

John: Absolutely.

Alexandria: Scary Movie 2. I mean, all these like random movies that I really like.

John: Scary Movie 2. There you go.

Alexandria: I know. I know. It’s an odd one to really like, but he’s the one that’s in all of those, so it’s like he must be the magic.

John: That’s the common denominator there. I love it. We got three more or two more rather. Do you have a least favorite vegetable?

Alexandria: Probably Brussel sprouts.

John: Yeah! Solid.

Alexandria: Super cute. And my dad would try confuse me like—

John: Baby cabbage.

Alexandria: Yeah. But it’s like it doesn’t help unless it’s like fried with like bacon and those are okay.

John: Exactly. You know, all the unhealthy stuff that goes on, it’s too much work.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: It’s like the grits of vegetables. It’s like just takes too much work to make it good. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Alexandria: Gosh, I think the favorite thing I have, this is gonna sound cliché, but it’s probably my husband and my son. They’re just so awesome. I love hanging out with them. And so, I’m very lucky that both my husband and I work remote. And people have asked us how is that. And we’re like it’s awesome ’cause we’re hanging out with our best friend like all day, every day.

John: That’s very cool. Very cool. That’s incredible. And then when you’re not hanging out with the family, you’re running.

Alexandria: Yeah. Away from the family. No.

John: Well, they’re not joining you. That’s for sure. So yeah, so let’s talk about running and just how’d you get into running?

Alexandria: So where it started is I had always looked at running as being something that was too difficult for me that I was never gonna be able to do. I could only run maybe a couple houses and my husband had said that you are only in good shape if you’re running. That that’s like gonna prove that you’re in the best shape. Because if you can run, it means you’re in good shape. And so, I was thinking about that. I was like “Yeah, I think you’re right.” So I did the couch to 5k. I signed up for 5K and that’s where it started. And you know, I didn’t just kind of dabble in it. I was like “Well, now that I’m doing this, let’s go full on.” And so, I did in that first summer. I had 6 weeks that I had a 5K every single weekend.

John: Wow! That’s impressive.

Alexandria: Yes.

John: And I mean, from couch like not running at all. Like not really into doing six 5Ks in 6 weeks. That’s impressive. That really is. And if you add ’em all up, I feel like that’s a marathon. So you should check that off as like—

Alexandria: I should. Yeah. I was brand new to racing and here I was already doing marathons.

John: Yeah. Right? I mean, it’s a monthly thing, but it’s all good. But no, I would take it. But no, that’s really impressive that you were just like “Hey, I’m just gonna do this.” And was it kind of pandemic related or—

Alexandria: No, this was probably 2015 or so. Yeah.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Alexandria: So it’s been a while. I mean, well, the couch to 5K, it’s a really easy program to follow. You just have to do it. I mean, that’s the biggest thing. Just finding the time and actually doing that, but they train you to be able to do a 5K and then it’s like if you get to that point, then it’s like don’t stop.

John: Then it’s momentum and keep it going and yeah.

John: No. Plus, once you find a cool brand that makes awesome shoes, then you have to wear ’em. So now, I have to go run.

Alexandria: It’s true. I had to try out every single pair that I buy on a weekly basis.

John: That’s incredible. That’s so great. And so, do you have some of the runs that have been your more favorite ones?

Alexandria: Yes. And so, I actually have tattoos of the meaningful runs that I have done. And so, the first tattoo I have is of the Disney half marathon. I did the Tinkerbell in Disneyland, and it was incredible. And it was the first time I had ran a half marathon without stopping. It wasn’t superfast, but it was fast enough that I was able to qualify for then the Pike’s Peak Ascent. And so, that was my second race. And then—

John: Wow.

Alexandria: most recently, I did the Las Vegas half marathon and that’s been after I had a back surgery. So it was kind of like a comeback race.

John: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. No. That’s impressive. Wow. I mean, in Pike’s Peak, goodness.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: That’s quite a run. I would get a tattoo for that one I would imagine. Probably getting a tattoo hurt less than doing the run.

Alexandria: Absolutely. Yes. ‘Cause it is. It’s ranked the hardest half marathon in the US.

John: Yeah. And that was your second one. And you were doing 5Ks. You were on a couch.

Alexandria: Right? I know. Go big or go home.

John: I love it. That’s really, really impressive. Kudos to you for real. Like that’s really fantastic. And also something too that you brought up of the time and the whatever, it’s like it doesn’t matter what your time was, you know. You’re not doing it for setting a world record or getting a gold medal in the Olympics. You’re doing it for you. If you’ve changed the phrase to I enjoy running, then it takes a lot of the pressure off of instead of calling your— I’m a runner and it’s like, well you know, I enjoy running it. It sounds a little less pressure on yourself, I think, type of thing.

Alexandria: It does.

John: Yeah. ‘Cause it doesn’t matter what the time was like. Like my time was finished. How’s that sound like?

Alexandria: Absolutely. And that was definitely me at the Pikes Peak Ascent. It took me quite a while, and there were times I didn’t know if I was gonna finish. But just crossing that line and being on the finisher’s list, it’s like that’s fine. it doesn’t matter.

John: Yeah. That’s impressive. Give me a banana and a medal. And now, let’s get the hell out of here.

Alexandria: Yeah. Get me off this mountain and we’ll be good.

John: We won’t be back for a while. We’re good now. Like we’re good.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: Yeah. Have your son look around. All right. We’re done. Like we’re not coming back.

Alexandria: And that’s it. The family was up there waiting for me for far too long. And so, they were ready to get off that mountain too.

John: But kudos for you. That’s really, really cool. And I think it’s fantastic. And so, do you feel like— I mean, of course, at no point in your schooling does anyone say “Hey, go be a long-distance runner ’cause it will make you better at your job.” But do you feel like there’s a skill that you bring from running to work?

Alexandria: Yes, absolutely. So when I actually completed the Pikes Peak Ascent, I was in the middle of my CPA exams.

John: Oh.

Alexandria: Yeah. And so, it was just one of those things that— ’cause Pikes Peak, I can see it out my window. It’s something that I’ve grown up looking at forever and known about this race. And it always seemed like something that was so impossible. So it’s like if I can actually do something that I think is impossible to complete, it was just another motivation to say the CPA test at point feel like it’s gonna be impossible to complete. So it is just that motivation and that knowing that, yeah, I can do hard stuff. I can get direct.

John: Yeah. And your family is waiting at the end for way too long for both of them.

Alexandria: That is probably the truest thing I have ever heard. They’re at the end waiting and it’s taken far too long. They’re tapping their feet. And they’re like “No.” But it’s true. It is so true.

John: How many parts are there? Good Lord.

Alexandria: Exactly.

John: It’s like you need more of these? That’s funny. No, no, no. I’m totally teasing. But is this something that you do talk about at work with coworkers?

Alexandria: It is. And where I had my tattoos, they’re on my foot, and I didn’t really think about it when I got my first one. You can’t see them when I run. They’re not visible.

John: Oh, right. Yeah.

Alexandria: I have on socks and shoes. And so, you really only see it when I have on high heels and I’m in work attire.

John: At work. Yeah.

Alexandria: So people always ask me about them. And so, it’s a great way to just talk about your ’cause it’s very visible.

John: Yeah.

Alexandria: So it’s actually been something that I’m like “Well, I didn’t intend for this to be something that wasn’t seen when I’m running and only when I’m in a work setting, but it’s really worked out.”

John: That’s fantastic though. And it’s cool to hear that it’s not judgment or “Oh, you’re fired ’cause you have an outside of work interest.” It’s the opposite it sounds like where people are asking you about it, which is fantastic, which is what you want in a work setting, is people that care about me enough to ask. You know? Like what is that? If they didn’t care about you, they would just brush it off and just not even talk about it. And it’s neat to hear that it’s a conversation starter of sorts like that. And I guess how much do you feel like it’s on an organization to create an environment where people can share their “ands” or even go even in further and shine a light on them and stress how it’s important that you have one? Or how much is it on the individual to just create that little small circle on their peers?

Alexandria: Yes. So I think it is incredibly valuable if your company stands behind it and is promoting it. The tone at the top is huge. And if it’s supported from the very top, it’s just gonna encourage everybody else to see that it’s acceptable, that it’s valued, it’s something that we wanna focus on. But if you’re in an organization that it isn’t there and it’s not one of the main objectives or something that they want to create this environment, you can. You can do it within your own team and be the one that speaks out and says, you know, let’s talk about this. Let’s do that. Let’s try something new.

And where I was most recently, I mean, there was a general sense of, yes, we want everybody to know each other and know what makes them tick more. But within our finance department, we really dove into that. And we via assessment and looking at what our character strengths were. We knew what each other’s passions were. We were excited when somebody went to a Nuggets game ’cause they loved the Never Nuggets. And so, it has just made our team so much stronger because we knew about each other and we cared about what others were thinking, what their passions were, what their values were, what made them super excited.

John: No, I love to hear that so much. And you know, how much did that compare to maybe other places you’ve worked where, well, I kind of knew about people, but not really? But it sounds like this other place where you really get into it and you roll up your sleeves and care about people. It’s gotta make work better.

Alexandria: It does. And what I really saw is that people that maybe not connect generally were then forming relationships because they had more of an understanding of who that person was.

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Alexandria: And I even found that in myself that somebody that I might not sit down and have a conversation or go to lunch with, once I found out that “Oh, they had a child that went to this school and they did this or they really liked going ice skating”, you know, just different things, it just made even working together, and asking those questions, and building that team so much easier for everybody.

John: Yeah. You know, something that you just brought up that made me think of like— Yeah, I mean you definitely don’t have to have the same “and”, but it’s just— When you’re around people that are more interesting, you want to be around them more. And there’s interesting people around us. We just don’t know because we don’t pop the hood and ask, you know. And what’s under here? Like what makes you tick? What is your “and”? Like what are those passions that are outside of work, you know, sort of thing? And and people also then have to quit lying to themselves and saying “Well, I’m really passionate about whatever my job is.” It’s like, all right, then volunteer and don’t get paid. Because if you’re so passionate about it, then why are you getting paid?

Alexandria: Yeah. Yeah. In finance, we all like accounting. Okay, that’s great. You know, whatever. But you don’t just think and eat, breathe, and live accounting all the time.

John: Yeah. And creating that space for where people can just be honest with themselves and be honest with each other. And interesting people are interesting.

Alexandria: Yes.

John: And you wanna be around them more. And whether it’s your thing or not, I actually wanna be around you more.

Alexandria: Yeah. And I wanna learn. I wanna hear why is it important to you. What do you do? Like that sounds crazy.

John: What is that? Right?

Alexandria: Yeah. Yeah. I have no frame of reference around this. Please educate us.

John: Right?

Alexandria: We don’t have any idea what you’re talking about. This sounds crazy. And you actually think that’s even more exciting when it’s not the same “and” because you learn something and it’s sometimes just so mind blowing what people are passionate about and what they do that you would never even think of that even existing.

John: Yeah. And maybe that’s a new “and” for you or next time you go do it, I’d love to come along. Yeah. Sure.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: Like why not?

Alexandria: I just wanna check this out. This is really cool.

John: I get to do it every week on this podcast. And it’s like “Oh, wow, this is incredible. Like this is so much fun.” And just when you see people come so alive talking about it, it’s almost like the perfect sales pitch. It’s like “Yeah, I wanna do that.” You’re so excited about it.

Alexandria: Yes. Oh, what did I sign up for?

John: Right. All of a sudden, I’m halfway up. I’m halfway up Pikes Peak having an asthma attack or something and a heart attack all at the same time. And it’s like “Oh, boy. Like this is fun.” But that’s such a great point.

Like whether it’s your and or someone else’s “and”, like it doesn’t matter. You don’t have to have the same one. Just care about each other and that’s really incredible. And what a great takeaway for everybody listening of just share. As long as it’s not taboo or super political or whatever, gonna really ostracize people, your outside of work hobby is not that, you know. So start with that and who you are. And behind the job title, there’s a human there. That’s really awesome.

Alexandria: Yeah. Even events you do, things you do with your family. I mean just sharing who you are, who you really are.

John: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And start with yourself. Just get to know yourself, you know.

Alexandria: Yes.

John: And then share with others I guess, you know.

Alexandria: Yes. And that’s sometimes hard. It’s like, well, I don’t know. But then as people start talking, it’s like “Oh, okay, yeah, I can relate to that. I do this.” Or “Yeah, I know—”

John: Yeah. I do have stuff outside of work that—

Alexandria: Growing up, we went camping every summer or whatever it is.

John: Exactly.

Alexandria: Doesn’t have to be big. Just little pieces.

John: Yeah. I love it. And just like your month full of marathon, all those little pieces add up. Right?

Alexandria: Yeah, it does.

John: Look at me bringing it all back.

Alexandria: Right? Full circle

John: There we go. That’s awesome. Well, Alex, this has been so much fun, but I feel like it’s only fair since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning that we turn the tables, make this the first episode of The Alex Romero Podcast. Thanks for having me on and I’m all yours. So whatever you got, fire away.

Alexandria: So both of us being in Colorado, fall is such a huge thing around here I feel like and all these different events. So I wanna know what’s your favorite fall event that’s coming up?

John: Well, I am a huge college football—

Alexandria: I was gonna say except for college football almost.

John: Right? I mean, that’s my favorite season. It’s like not gross hot. The leaves are changing. Hot chocolate becomes more normal. There’s some pumpkin stuff starts popping up. College football is happening. Yeah, absolutely. All of that is just so great. Yeah, I love fall so much ’cause it’s not cold yet, but it’s just that little bit of crisp in the air where it’s like all right, you know, like it’s nice.

Alexandria: And it’s super gorgeous here in the fall time in Colorado.

John: Oh, yeah, in Colorado. It’s amazing. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, it’s so great. And the no humidity is like just brilliant. Like whoever thought of this humidity idea was— I don’t know what they were thinking.

Alexandria: I don’t know. I don’t know. I was in Florida in June and—

John: Wow.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: Yeah. Good luck with that.

Alexandria: Yeah. We made it back.

John: It was horrible though. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. But yeah, definitely college football would be the quick answer.

Alexandria: Yeah. And then also, salty or sweet?

John: Oh, wow. That’s a tough one. I think I’ll go sweet. You’re talking about my personality, right? Just kidding.

Alexandria: I didn’t put any reference around that question, so there you go.

John: If it was my personality, it would definitely have been salty, but I do prefer sweet for sure. I’m a sucker for that. And obviously, the ice cream is definitely gonna be in there for that, so awesome. Well, thank you so much, Alex, for being a part of this. It was so cool hearing about this, and I look forward to following your running on social media and everything, and cheering you on. So thanks, Alex.

Alexandria: Thank you.

John: Yeah, absolutely. And everybody, if you wanna see some pictures of Alex from her runs or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. everything is there. And while you’re on that page, please click the big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book. And thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread. That who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 521 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work.

And super cool, Michael Puck was a guest on the show. He’s a dog photography. It’s his “and.” And he’s teamed up with other dog photographers to have globaldogart.com. You could check it out. Research has confirmed that pictures of dogs increase our well-being, reduced stress, foster social connections. So maybe that’s for your home, maybe it’s for your home office, maybe it’s for your office. But check out globaldogart.com. All the proceeds, 100% of the proceeds go to save 1 million dogs by 2030. So check that out, globaldogart.com.

And don’t forget to check out my book. What’s Your “And”? You can go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there for the podcast guests as well as links for the book. And don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Bianca Mueller. She’s the community manager for Wagepoint. You’ll see her at CPB Ignite and Wage Fest coming up. And now, she’s with me here today. Bianca, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Bianca: Thanks for having me. I’m super excited.

John: Oh, this is gonna be so much fun despite how you sounded.

Bianca: Are you ready for me? That’s what I wanna know.

John: Unleash. I’ve met you before. We’ve hung out at a conference before. Like I want the real Bianca coming out here. This is gonna be great. And I have some questions that I didn’t ask you when we did hang out and I probably should have.

Bianca: Let’s ask them for the greater public. Shall we?

John: Right. Here we go. I actually crowdsource these, so they’re what everyone wants to know. I’m kidding. They’re just my— The look on your eyes is like “Oh, no!”

Bianca: I love it. I’m transparent. Let’s go. Fire away.

John: Yeah, here we go. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Bianca: Ooh, Star Wars.

John: Okay. All right. Seemed close though. All right. How about your computer? Are you more PC or Mac?

Bianca: 100% PC. My son has problems with his iPhone and I’m lost.

John: Right? Oh, I’m the same. I’m not cool enough for any of that stuff. Oh, this is a fun one. Toilet paper roll over or under?

Bianca: Oh, like that’s my only OCD. It’s definitely has to be over. I switch it at strangers houses and in public bathrooms.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so good. And I will tell you, you are not alone because there are so many people that have been on the podcast that are the same as you. For sure. I had one person even say it’s over. And if you don’t think so, this conversation is over also.

Bianca: Ouch.

John: That was great. How about a favorite animal? Any animal?

Bianca: Oh, Tiger. I have actually have a little story. My family, we did this big road trip down to San Diego. I live on the West Coast in Vancouver. And the only thing I purchased on that whole trip when I was about 14 was this huge poster from the San Diego Zoo of a big like snow tiger.

John: Oh, yeah!

Bianca: And my parents had to cart this in the car and not dent it.

John: Not dent it. Yeah, oh, totally.

Bianca: Yeah. That was hanging on my wall until I was at like 25. I took that with me to my first apartment and everything.

John: That’s so good. So good. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Bianca: Ooh, Sudoku and jigsaw for sure.

John: Oh, okay. All right. So, a little bit of both.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: A jigsaw puzzles of tigers.

Bianca: Ooh, that would be fun. I should put that on my Amazon gift list or whatever.

John: Right? There we go. How about a favorite color?

Bianca: Ooh, pink.

John: Pink. Nice. There you go. How about a least favorite color?

Bianca: Brown.

John: Brown. Yeah. The least of the least popular. Yeah. That’s brown. Yeah. How about more talk or text?

Bianca: Oh, it depends on the time of day and who it is actually. I’m a talker for sure. Anyone knows me knows I don’t shut up, but I will text all day long if I feel like you don’t have time to talk to me. I’ll just text you and yeah.

John: Right. ‘Cause then I’m able to still talk to you even though you’re busy like with something else. Like I’m still getting at you. So there you go. All right. All right. How about a favorite cereal as adult, as a kid, whatever? Favorite cereal.

Bianca: Granola.

John: Granola! Okay.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: All right.

Bianca: I love granola.

John: There you go. That works. I anticipated something wild and crazy. And you come at me with granola. I’m like “Ah, good to know.” I learned something new here. And since you have the bookkeeping background, balance sheet or income statement?

Bianca: Ooh, balance sheet all day long. All day long. Because, you know, it’s interesting you say that because if you’re a sole proprietor, like your income statement’s the only thing you really think about.

But like in the backend, your bookkeepers got the balance sheet going. So it’s like this hidden like, I don’t know, star that needs to— It needs to add up. It’s what makes everything add up.

John: Yeah. It’s hard to hide stuff there. Yeah, that’s for sure. Very good. How about— Ooh, in Canada, this might be a fun one. Summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Bianca: I’m spring. I do really like the crisp air coming in the fall. Like fall is beautiful here. Like September. I love September in British Columbia. But I appreciate the warmer temperatures.

John: Right? We’re getting out of it. Like coming out of winter. It’s like, yeah, not going into it.

Bianca: Spring. And also, my birthday is in the spring, so it’s another reason to celebrate.

John: Done. Hello? I just moved mine from fall to spring just because of that. There we go. How about a favorite number?

Bianca: 4?

John: 4? Okay. Is there a reason or just—

Bianca: No. Because everyone else picks 3. I don’t think—

John: One better than you.

Bianca: I feel like I can’t do odd numbers very well. I don’t know. There might be something there. Little neuro divergence.

John: Okay. Even number. 4 specifically. I like it. That works. That’s a fun number. How about when it comes to books? Audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Bianca: Ooh, e-Book. I’m a digital girl. I’m a digital first mindset.

John: Okay. You’re taking it all the way through. All the way through. I like it. How about a favorite actor or a favorite actress?

Bianca: Oh, I really like Charlize Theron.

John: Oh yeah!

Bianca: Yeah.

John: Yeah. She’s in a lot of good stuff too. Yeah. Really good actress.

Bianca: She just has such a range of characters she can play. It’s pretty amazing.

John: Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. Two more. Heels or flats?

Bianca: Well, this might be a good segue into what I wanted to talk about because I used to love heels, but I can’t wear them anymore because I have bad knees.

John: Oh, okay. Which we’ll get to in the contact sports part of Bianca’s life. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Bianca: Oh, probably my cat or even my air fryer. I’m like slow down.

John: Oh, man.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: Air fryer. Solid. What kind of air fryer do you have?

Bianca: A really big one. Like the biggest one I could buy.

John: Okay. There you go. I actually pulled out my stove and put it in air— No, I’m just kidding.

Bianca: You know, my biggest thing though that I appreciate the most every day is the fact that I have 6 king size pillows on my bed.

John: 6?

Bianca: I was like “Oh, my God, I don’t know how people sleep flat.” Flat is like not my thing.

John: That is impressive. Yeah.

Bianca: It’s like clouds.

John: That is very impressive.

Bianca: It’s like clouds.

John: Yeah. I’ll take all of those answers as favorite things. And they’re all different. Your cat, air fryer, king size pillows. Amen. All of those things. I’m a big fan. So let’s talk the contact sports and I guess maybe if they’re not looking at you peopling and just being up on everybody. If you’re not looking, you’re gonna get whacked.

Bianca: Yeah. Bianca, the boxing bookkeeper, that was what people used to call me.

John: That’s so great. Like how cool is that? I mean, how many bookkeepers have that much of an identity to where people— and the alliteration of it all? The BBB, I love it.

Bianca: Yeah. My nickname is Bee. Busy Bee to Be.

John: Right. So you’re just all over. I’m glad I didn’t ask you favorite letter ’cause it was clear it’s B, but like how did you get into, you know, I guess boxing maybe to begin with, but then contact sports all around?

Bianca: Well, it actually started with martial arts when I was much younger. I think my mom and dad were just like “This girl has too much energy for us. She needs to go somewhere else for a few hours a day.”

John: Yes.

Bianca: That was one of those. Let’s just put it that way. So I did. I went into martial arts. And I did martial arts on and off my whole life, but really got into it seriously when I was an early teen. I can’t even remember. Maybe 13. And I got really well. And I actually got up to my brown belt. Through the years, I’d done various styles. Shotokan, Aikido, Muay Thai, Pankration. I also wrestled provincially through high school. I was one of the only girls on the wrestling team. And because of the grappling martial arts experience, I had excelled really well and sort of dominated grade 12 when I was competing. And it was so fun. And yeah.

So then, in my after high school teenage years, 18-19, I got into doing Muay Thai, and I loved it. It was like the most invigorating sport ever. Not only was I my most fittest. Like it’s very, very physically demanding, but like you push yourself mentally and physically to your limit every day. And that’s kind of how I roll. I need to be like—

John: All in.

Bianca: I sleep well at night.

John: Like totally metal.

Bianca: I don’t have a problem sleeping.

John: Right? We just run red all the time. Just like max it out. AND is that sort of like MMA?

Bianca: Yeah. So that’s like the precursor to MMA. It was like the Muay Thai, Pankration, all that stuff and yeah.

And then, you know, I was a powerhouse kicker. Like that was my thing. I was like “Look what I can do.” And I’d kick everything and I’d kick over all my friends’ heads at barbecues and bars. That was me. It was terrible. Bad idea.

John: Yeah. ‘Cause you can jump and kick. And they’re “What?!”

Bianca: It was a bad idea though because I ended up with a really bad knees. And you know, my doctor’s like “Oh, it’s arthritis. It’s arthritis. Just push through it. You’ll be fine.” But I couldn’t. It got so painful that I ended up in my 20s having to be like “No, I can’t do this anymore.” So that was kind of lame. But that’s sort of also when like life just got real for me. I was like I don’t have time for all this fun stuff. I need to get career driven. I need to get all these things, and then marriage, and then kids, and all of those— Life caught up.

John: Yeah.

Bianca: And then when I was 40, I’m like I really missed that. I missed that.

John: Interesting.

Bianca: So how can I do martial arts without kicking? ‘Cause I thought kicking my knees. I was like boxing. Boxing is totally the segue to me getting back in shape and back into my competitive spirit and nature. But yeah, it actually backfired. So then, I’m boxing. I won a couple fights. And I’m in Vegas in a fight in Vegas at the Hard Rock Hotel.

John: How great is that?

Bianca: It was like super amateur, not professional.

John: But still.

Bianca: But still.

John: Who cares?

Bianca: Full contact.

John: Like that’s great.

Bianca: I’ll send you a picture. But I blew my ACL like 30 seconds into the fight, so that sucked, but it was still an amazing experience. And I ended up having a few years of reconstructive knee surgeries, a couple of them, and had a little bit of trouble healing. But I’m now all healed and my next journey is to sort of get back into martial arts. Not competitively fighting anymore, but just actively for my mental and physical.

John: Yeah. But that’s so interesting. Or even just watching it. I mean I’m sure watching boxing, watching that. Like you can’t do it anymore maybe, but you can watch it or you can do a scaled down version of like what you’re talking about.

Bianca: I just love the intensity of hitting things. That sounds bad. This can easily be taken out of context.

John: No, no, not at all. Not at all. I mean, that’s why I go to the driving range. It’s just like “Wham!” I mean, I just grab my driver. I don’t use it. It’s just like “You know what? It’s been a day, and I just need a bucket, and I’m just gonna hit these things as hard as I can.”

Bianca: Yeah.

John: ‘Cause if I don’t hit the golf balls, it’s gonna be someone else. It’s gonna be like a person.

Bianca: It’s super invigorating. Yeah. I love it.

John: Yeah, totally. But I think it’s really interesting how life gets in the way and then that’s the first thing that we put on the backburner, is our “and.” But then later in life, you’re like “You know what? No, no, no, I need this.”

Bianca: Is that what’s called a midlife crisis?

John: No, not at all. It’s actually like being human because the human part of us is the first thing we put on in the backburner and then your soul starts to speak up with “Hey, remember us? Like we’re human.”

Bianca: We’re gonna do things for you.

John: Yeah. Amen. And so, was there a difference when you were transitioning back into? Like did it play out into work some?

Bianca: Yeah. I mean, I was nicknamed The Jugular for a reason.

John: Okay. Okay.

Bianca: I’m just like it’s straight to the point.

John: Here we go.

Bianca: Like super focused. Eye on the end of the prize. And I put in all the work and I work full speed ahead at everything I do all the time. And it’s like I literally attribute that exact skill from my martial arts to work. Like it’s still how I function. And it’s like there’s always a result. There’s a process. And I push myself like every day to my limit. I don’t know how good that is, but that’s how I function.

John: But that’s in your DNA. That’s who you are. And you’re exercising that muscle outside of work. So then, when you need to use it at work, then you’re like “Well I got this, that’s no problem.” You know, somebody like me doesn’t have that, so yeah.

Bianca: The amount of focus that it takes to stay on task, especially like in a fight or in a martial arts scenario, and even the meditation components that come with martial arts really, really, really helps in my professional life as well for sure.

John: That’s awesome. And no one at any point in your education, or training, or anything tells you, you know, go do martial arts ’cause it will make you a better professional.

Bianca: No.

John: But it clearly does.

Bianca: Yeah. Absolutely.

John: It clearly does.

Bianca: And it allows me to conquer so many fears because, like you say, it’s a contact sport. It’s one on one. If I don’t step up to my best face every day or my best ability, then guess what’s gonna happen? Bianca’s gonna get a black eye.

John: Yeah, it’s your jugular that time. No, somebody’s gonna get a black eye like “Oh, man.” That’s brutal.

Bianca: It doesn’t mean that I’m so much harder on myself though when like things don’t go as planned. And I’m working on that. That’s the shadow work that I’m doing in my 40s for sure.

John: There you go. Okay. Okay. Fair enough. But it is something that you talk about. I mean, people knew you as Bianca, the boxing bookkeeper. I mean, now that you’re with Wagepoint as a community manager, like it’s slightly different roles or job, technical skills, obviously totally different, but the “and” is still there with you. So it is something that you do share—

Bianca: Yeah.

John: …at work.

Bianca: It is. Absolutely. People love hearing the stories. And I think the “and” is the energy. I bring the same level of energy to everything that I do. And the intention behind what I’m doing and what I’m accomplishing, I bring that to everything that I do. And the people that are around me, whether it’s family, friends, or community, or industry, they all feel, and see, and understand that about me because it comes across very authentically or at least that is me. So I don’t try to suppress that part of me at all. And anyone you talk to in the industry is gonna be like “Yup, that’s Bianca.”

John: Well, good, because I mean, #1, they remember you. So you don’t just fall into the mix of everyone else. But two, if they didn’t know your “and”, then you would just be like super aggressive lady, but it’s like “Oh, no, no. She’s a boxer. She’s like kickboxing. No, no, that’s just who she is. That’s what she does.” Like if I didn’t know that part of you, I would have been like “Woah, she’s like super intense.” Then you find that side out of her.

Bianca: People often ask and they’re like “Do you have a whole bunch of brothers?” And I’m like “Actually, I do have two brothers, but I’m probably the most masculine one of them.” I didn’t have to stick up for myself. Like they literally had to protect themselves.

John: Right? That’s the thing. And if they say otherwise, I will give them the black eye. Here it is.

Bianca: You know, the apple didn’t fall far from the tree.

John: Yeah. I love how like there wasn’t a part of you that was like “Oh, people are gonna judge me for this.” Like it’s take it or leave it type of thing. A lot of times, we have these lies that we tell ourselves ’cause our brain is way not our friend.

Bianca: Yeah. Judgment is a very real thing, and I probably should care a little bit more. But but you know, my theory is if someone can find energy or their own voice in anything that I’m saying or doing ’cause everything like I say or do is full speed ahead, if I can affect one person’s life, then that’s all that matters because it really does help. You know, my person was my mom. And a lot of people in the bookkeeping and accounting industry know Diane Mueller. She’s a spear-header just like me. And she paved a really big trail for the accounting community and bookkeeping community in Canada. And I didn’t fall far from that tree like I said. Yeah.

John: No, that’s fantastic. I mean, it’s really great. And so, how much do you feel like it matters for an organization? You know, obviously, when you’re maybe a bookkeeper or you have a smaller company, of course you know each other on accident. But when you’re part of Wagepoint or other organizations, how much is it on the organization to create that space for you to have an “and” and share it versus how much is it on the individual to just kind of create that little circle in their peers?

Bianca: You know, it’s interesting you say that because as an extroverted bookkeeper, I’ve had software companies sort of interested in my energy for a while. And when the opportunity with Wagepoint came up, it was a no brainer because of the culture that Shrad has built within the company.

John: Nice.

Bianca: They promote everybody’s side hustles. There’s channels in there for everybody’s “ands.” It’s absolutely amazing. I wish there was more boxers, okay, ’cause Wagepoint is 100% cloud-based and always has been. So everybody works remotely. And the culture that Shrad’s built within Wagepoint and the different ways that we can all communicate and share our “ands” with each other and find our community of like-minded people within where we work is so amazing.

John: That’s so cool to hear like that they’ve cared about the human side from the beginning.

Bianca: It’s always been about the human side, and emotional intelligence plays a huge factor in that and how Shrad actually hires. So it’s pretty cool.

John: Oh, really? That’s interesting. Yeah. ‘Cause, I mean, you can’t teach that side of things as well as the technical skills are pretty easy to teach. That’s awesome. That’s so encouraging to hear, you know, that there are organizations out there that are like that ’cause it’s gotta feel good to be a part of a company that cares about the other dimensions to who Bianca is. Not just the work Bianca.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: You know, everything.

Bianca: And all the time, the conversations boil down to us as individuals, not what we bring to the table all the time. All the conversations with Shred. We just got back from a big work retreat. One of our customers, our wagepoint customers, has a summer camp, The Hollows in Ontario. So we booked it out and like 70 or 80 staff all went there. And we slept in the little bunk beds like we’re camp kids.

John: That’s so cool.

Bianca: We did adult summer camp, and it was so amazing. Like no shop talk. It was like there was a DJ and a mentalist, an illusionist.

We had entertainment. It was so much fun. And it was getting to know everybody’s aunt and it was encouraged. It was amazing.

John: That’s so great and such a simple thing and just brings people together. And especially, when you’re fully remote like that, you have to be super, super intentional with caring about people, but then getting in person matters even if it’s once a year or twice a year, or even if it’s in small groups. There’s so many like “I didn’t know you were this height, you know. Like on Zoom, it’s like all I see is this head.”

Bianca: We actually sat down. We’re like ” Who were our biggest surprises?” We’re like “I didn’t think that person was gonna be that tall” or like “I didn’t think that person was gonna be that cool.” Like we have this awesome guy in finance and everyone thought he was gonna be a bit stiff, but he was like the funnest person there.

John: Right? Right? Which is great. It’s like bring the summer camp you to work every day.

Bianca: Yes

John: Like this is great.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: So fantastic. I love it so much. Do you have any words of encouragement to people that feel like “Hey, I like to do martial arts or box” or whatever their and is, “but it has nothing to do with my job, so no one really cares, no one’s gonna care”? Like do you have words of encouragement to anyone listening?

Bianca: Well, yeah. And I think we actually just touched base on this and it’s like just do you. Stop fearing judgment. The judgment that people like fear how they’re gonna be received or if they’re gonna be misunderstood or misinterpreted is often the bottleneck that like stops people from authentically showing up as themself. And I show up authentically every day, even if it’s a bad day or a good day. Like you’re gonna know. And I think that that is hopefully spilled out a little bit into like even the people that I deal with every day.

And I know that my management, my team, we all show up authentically every day. And everyone that hires sort of feels that vibe, and it’s like the next person that comes on board sort of starts to slowly adapt to that same way. And it’s literally breeding this internal culture of amazingness, and you just need that one person to like understand and see you for who you are and make you feel welcome. And then it’s like sky’s the limit.

John: Yeah. It’s one of those things that’s so simple, but not easy, I guess, for most people for some reason. But yeah, it’s just care. Like have a genuine interest, you know. And, well, we don’t have a charge code for getting to know each other or whatever. We don’t get paid to socialize.

Bianca: Well, employers need to provide more safe spaces for that. In a real life work environment, office environment, people often go to the water cooler and just like, you know, they hang out there for a few extra minutes and see who stops by to have a little chit chat. So it looks like they’re still working, but you know, but they need a break, a mental break. Well, we have a slack channel called the water cooler. I mean, that’s a perfect example, and anybody can put anything there any time. Well, obviously, within like HR.

John: Right. HR doesn’t get flagged.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: We have a separate one for Bianca. Bianca has her own channel.

Bianca: Might be on the roadmap. We have a gardening channel, a wellness channel. You know, so many amazing things. A plant-based food and nutrition channel. And anyone can go in them at any time. There’s zero judgments on if one day you spend a little bit too much time in that channel chatting to people and the next thing—

John: Yeah.

Bianca: There’s no like micromanaging of time and I think that’s like super, super important as well.

John: Yeah, no, totally. It just takes the reins off of you that you can feel like, well, no, I can just be me.

Bianca: If you’re you, you’re gonna show up more creatively too.

John: Yeah. Amen. That’s so much better. So much more engaged. So much more everything. Well, this has been so much fun, Bianca. But before I get a black eye from saying something, I feel like it’s only fair that I turn the tables, make this the first episode of the Bianca Mueller Podcast.

Bianca: All right.

John: So thanks for having me on.

Bianca: All right. So you’re a speaker, you’re out there, you’re always like so engaging with public, but are you introverted or extroverted ’cause I can’t figure it out?

John: Oh, yeah. No, that’s a good question ’cause you are definitely the extrovert and I am very introverted. Very introverted. I think that’s surprising to probably everyone listening, but yeah, when I go somewhere, I’ll speak, I’ll talk to people after, but then, yeah, I don’t ever turn the TV on in my hotel room. I don’t even know if it has a TV half the time because I just need quiet. Just quiet to recharge and just all the stuff in my brain needs to be de-fragmented, I guess, like in the computer speak.

Bianca: Yeah, yeah.

John: Yeah. And just recharge that way.

Bianca: So you show up with your full energy whereas I leave talks filled with even more. It is the opposite. I think that’s how they define introverted and extroverted.

John: Right. And I leave drained because I’m giving so much of myself to each individual person in the room and I’m the opposite.

I’m giving so much that I’m just like just exhausted and drained at the end. Or even you’ll see me at any gathering, I’ll be in the corner with maybe one or two other people and then I will only talk to those two people the entire time. Like I will not talk to anyone new and especially if it’s a conference where I haven’t spoken yet, so then you don’t know what I do and then it becomes now I gotta tell you what I do and it’s let’s just talk about you and whatever your job is.

Bianca: I like it. This is all making sense now. What’s Your “And”? You wanna know about other people. You’re deflecting. I get it.

John: Yeah. What’s your “and?” Like let’s talk about that.

Bianca: No, I want to know about you. So I see. The audience can’t see, but I can see there’s some football memorabilia behind you on your shelf. What’s that about?

John: Notre Dame football helmet. Yeah, I graduated from Notre Dame and huge college football fan. That’s definitely one of my “ands”.

Bianca: Cool.

John: And then a football signed by Coach Holtz who wrote the foreword for my book, the Hall of Fame college football coach here in the US for Notre Dame. And yeah, so excited about that. But actually, the helmet is signed by the last coach. And so, it’s just mementos of things that bring me joy, and I think that’s important to have things that bring you joy around you so then you see them.

Bianca: Kinda like my pillows.

John: Yeah. Like king size pillows. You know what? Next time we talk, I might have 6 king size pillows stacked on my bookshelves back here. And you’ll be like “What? No, wait, what kind of pillows are those? What brand? What’s the stuffing made of?”

Bianca: The things that bring us comfort.

John: Exactly. Yeah. But I mean, at the very least, it makes me smile. Sit down. I’ve got a story for you.

Bianca: Do you put it on at parties?

John: I’ve put it on during Zoom calls, that’s for sure, before. Somebody’s like “Why don’t you just put on the—” “Okay, I’ll go put it on. I don’t care.”

Bianca: That’s awesome.

John: It’s fun.

Bianca: Very cool. Some fun facts about you.

John: Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you so much, Bianca, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? and just being awesome. So thank you for taking time to be a part of this.

Bianca: Thank you very much.

John: And everybody, if you wanna see some pictures of Bianca in action or connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. And like I said earlier, don’t forget, she’ll be at CPB Ignite as well as Wage Fest coming up very soon. And while you’re on that whatsyourand.com page, be sure and click the button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture and don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 517 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. It was so kind of The Independent Press Awards to name it a Distinguished Favorite. And the book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon, and more importantly changing the cultures where they work because of it. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Paul Jan Zdunek. He’s the COO of Miller Kaplan in Los Angeles and the author of Cowboys & Conductors: Conversations on Horseman-Humanship. And he’s with me here today. Paul, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Paul: Hey, John, great to be here. Thanks for having me.

John: Oh, man, this is gonna be so awesome. I’m super excited, but I have 17 rapid fire questions. Get to know Paul out of the gate here.

Paul: Hopefully, I won’t fail.

John: Right. This is gonna be the shortest episode ever. Like here we go. This is an easy one. Favorite color.

Paul: My favorite color is dark red and dark gold together. Kinda like the Italian red and golds. My whole house is fill with that.

John: Okay. All right. All right. That’s a little too close to USC for me, but we’ll keep going. How about a least favorite color?

Paul: Least favorite color is green.

John: Oh, okay. All right.

Paul: Especially like lime green, you know, like the pukey kind. Pukey green.

John: Right. Yeah, no, it’s a little too bright. How about you prefer more talk or text?

Paul: Talk for sure. Talk.

John: Yeah, just get it done. There we go. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Paul: You know, I love Robin Williams and Tom Hanks ’cause they have such a wide range of skills. They’re funny. They’re serious. And actually, one week, I started binging Tom Hanks movies ’cause they were so awesome.

John: I mean, that could go forever. I mean, that’s like they’re season so many. It’s unbelievable. Yeah. But you’re right. They’re both so good. So good. How about a favorite animal? Any animal at all?

Paul: Favorite animal. That’s a new one. Oh, geez. You know, the dog is always the favorite. They’re always so sweet. They need you, you know, easy.

John: Yeah. No, dogs are awesome. Absolutely. How about a favorite movie of all time?

Paul: You know, my favorite movie— Well, two of them actually. One is Birdcage, which is hilarious. Again, Robin Williams. Right? Totally awesome. The other one is Parental Guidance with Bette Midler and— Oh, I forget the— It will come to me. But also movie about, you know, sort of the new generation, and how parents are giving gold stars to everybody, and how Bette Midler kind of deals with that as a grandparent. So, awesome movie. I keep watching that over and over again. Hilarious.

John: That sounds awesome. Very cool. Very cool. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Paul: Star Wars for sure ’cause of the John Williams score. It’s just so fantastic. Both of them though, there’s been so many remakes. I can’t keep up. I like the first versions of all of that, but they’ve kind of gone off the deep end with the different remakes and so forth.

John: You’re right. I mean, John Williams definitely puts it over the top. I mean, yeah, he’s amazing. How about puzzles? Sodoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzle?

Paul: They all make me crazy. So, none.

John: None of the above. Perfect.

Paul: My wife does puzzles and I live through her.

John: Right. There you go. There you go. All right. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Paul: Definitely Mac just because, you know, used to spend so much time fixing or having bugs in the PC that it’s so nice to just like not worry about it. The firewall is done.

John: That’s hilarious. The propaganda that Apple has put out is still going strong. It’s awesome.

Paul: Exactly. Exactly.

John: It’s so awesome.

Paul: And it’s beautiful, and it’s beautiful.

John: They’re nice looking machines. That’s for sure. This is a good one. Toilet paper roll over or under?

Paul: You know, this is actually a serious issue with me. Over. Over. Under is impossible. It’s impossible. And you know what? Actually, my wife likes under and I like over, so we keep switching each other’s toilet papers.

John: Are you switching around?

Paul: That’s true. It’s a major issue for me. This is a major issue.

John: Amen, man. I’m with you on that one. For sure.

How about ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Paul: Cone for sure. Sugar cone, waffle cone. Waffle cone.

John: Ah, yeah, there you go.

Paul: If you go for it, you might as well go for it.

John: Yeah, you might as well go big.

Paul: Chocolate covered. Chocolate-covered waffle cones.

John: There we go. That seems to be one of the more popular. I’m a big fan of in the cup, but also with the cone. So then, yeah, you don’t lose any dripping around like yeah. Everybody wins on that one. This was a fun one somebody threw at me and I like bringing it back. Socks or shoes?

Paul: Oh, flip-flops and short socks. What are those? Like little ankle socks.

John: Oh, the little ankle socks with flip-flops. Okay.

Paul: No, no, no, no, no. One or the other.

John: Oh, one or the other. Okay. All right. Right. But flip-flops is probably the answer.

Paul: Yeah. The short socks are nice. Yeah. You know?

John: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But yeah. Okay. All right. Oh, this is a fun one. What’s a typical breakfast?

Paul: You know, I don’t eat breakfast because it makes me tired. I get sleepy. So if I eat breakfast, I’m usually taking a nap at 10 a.m., so it’s not good.

John: Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. There we go.

Paul: Coffee.

John: Coffee. Just straight coffee. All right.

Paul: That’s my preference. Yeah.

John: Okay. That works. How about a favorite number?

Paul: 7 because that’s my birthdate and it’s been lucky. I know it’s a favorite of a lot of people, but it’s always done me well.

John: It’s a good number. That’s for sure. We got three more. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Paul: Real. I like to feel it. I also like reading the real paper even though I have it on my phone. I like to be able to smell the ink on your hands.

John: Totally. I mean, it’s just, I guess, tradition. I don’t know. I’m just used to it more. I’m the same. Yeah, for sure. Two more. How about a favorite food?

Paul: Indian. I love Indian food.

John: Oh, okay.

Paul: Yeah. If I had to choose one forever and ever, it would be Indian for sure.

John: There you go. With some ice cream at the end.

Paul: Yeah, exactly.

John: Right. and then the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own. Like the house catches on fire, you go and grab or is there something cool or—

Paul: You know, it’s funny you ask it that way because I don’t have anything that I’m so tied to that I can’t do without, you know. Relationships, your mind, your mental, you know— my memory, I guess, is one favorite thing I own for now anyway.

John: Yeah. Right. Right. What’s left of it, right? No, no, that’s great. That’s an awesome answer. Absolutely. Your memory and your mind of course going along with that, so yeah. So let’s talk people watching, observing, what have you. Is this something that you got into recently or something you’ve been doing since you were younger?

Paul: Yeah. Ever since I was a kid— I grew up in Baltimore, so the inner city, and we had the famous white marble steps. We were on row homes where you can stretch your hands across and reach both walls and like you’re stacked next to each other. And it used to be the time where people actually sat on their steps or they called them in Baltimore stoops. They sat on their stoops. And I just go up and down the street when everyone was hanging out because we didn’t have air conditioning, we didn’t have the internet, we didn’t have Netflix. You know, like you actually went and talked to people, you know, sat outside and visited.

John: Was it uphill both ways on your street too?

Paul: I actually did live on a hill, so yeah. Yeah. Just like talk to people and figure out what made them tick. And that actually stuck with me the rest of my life. I mean, I love people watching. I’m to a point where I’m obsessed about it. Even going to a restaurant, my wife or whoever I’m with will be like “Hello! I’m over here.” And it’s like “Yeah, but do we know what’s going on behind us?”

John: Right? There’s like a whole sitcom happening.

Paul: Exactly. It’s fascinating.

John: That’s so cool. And I bet a lot of those people you still remember them because you do know what made them tick. You actually knew them as opposed to just “Hi, Ms. Johnson” or whatever.

Paul: Yeah. It’s people watching, but also understanding people. Right? So it is that deeper thing. And I think that had my life been a little different, I might have gone into sociology or psychology. But you know, I guess to your point also with your book and the and, it’s like maybe I don’t wanna do that as a career. Maybe I just like to do it on my own as a hobby so that it’s more fun and I don’t have to make money at it. I can just enjoy it.

John: Right. ‘Cause that is the thing. Trust me. I mean, when you make the leap to it’s your profession, it’s less enjoyable. I mean, you still enjoy it, but there’s some pressure now because you gotta pay the mortgage and all that stuff. And that’s awesome though. I mean, from when you were a kid and then growing up. I mean, now you’re in LA, which is— I mean that’s people watching heaven right there.

Paul: People watching Mecca.

John: Right. Right.

Paul: And yeah, I mean, ever since I was a kid, like you said, but then I also studied conducting and I was a conductor for about 10 years. And that people watching it, it’s not just people watching, but it’s really locking into who needs you, what their body language is, what they’re saying. You know? So really having that nuance of sound, of tone, of stature, of whatever and really locking into what people need at any given moment. I had to do that as a profession, you know, as sort of as part of the profession. And then as a consultant, a business consultant, do the same thing. You gotta come in and figure out what’s what, like who’s telling the lies, who’s telling the truth, who’s kind of making in between. And I still use it today as COO just to manage the team and manage individuals rather than say “Well, everyone’s the same. So, you know, this is how I’m gonna do it.”

And it’s, again, something that I did as a kid that I never thought about, but I use every day. And actually, you made me dig deeper and really realize how obsessed I am and how much I actually do it. I probably should see somebody about it, but—

John: Just see yourself. Right? No, I mean, I appreciate that, but yeah. But also then you not only understood how obsessed you are with it, but also how much you use it in your career as well because that’s the thing with the and. You know, it’s just something we do ’cause we enjoy it and then what takes someone to point out like or ask “Well, how does this play into your corporate career?” And it’s like “I didn’t think it— Oh, wait, it does actually. That’s pretty neat.” It’s just a cool little thing to step back and just realize that you’re not doing it because it enhances your career. It’s just a cool byproduct. And yeah, I could imagine. I mean, I was in the band all the way through college. And yeah, I mean, the conductor could see everything I was doing. Completely goofing around. I was a trombone player. So, of course, I was goofing around. It came with the instrument. I had to, but they could always tell. And it’s like “Ah, no matter how high I lifted my music stand, it’s like damn it.”

Paul: They knew you were reading magazines back there and not paying attention.

John: Right. They knew something like ” John, what are you doing? And I’m like “Ah, man! Like come on.” That’s so cool. And so, I guess do you have any like cooler, rewarding stories from, I guess, maybe growing up or some of the characters that you’ve met along your career or along your life from observing?

Paul: What I’ve taken away is that every person has got a story. Right? And that’s what makes it so fantastic. I think sometimes we think, well, you know, only really important people, or only celebrities, or only this or that are important or interesting. And this is actually kind of what drives me crazy about pop culture, right, because we all fixate on those one or two celebrities or the one who’s in the news now like Johnny Depp. It’s like there’s so many more interesting people in the world. And we often sort of dismiss like the person who checks you in at the hotel or whoever, but everyone’s got a story and everyone’s got sort of dysfunctional something or other that’s interesting. Right?

John: Yeah. I mean, good or bad, either way, it’s interesting.

Paul: Yeah. And so, I think if you have that kind of sense, then you’re not always looking for something. You’re luxuriating in the people that you’re meeting all the time.

John: Yeah. They’re all around us. And I mean, especially at work. I mean, you know, just asking simply what’s your and or what lights you up when you’re not at work. I mean, it’s amazing when I work with companies and speak at events. All of a sudden, it’s like I had no idea that all of this was around me and I’ve worked here for eight years. And you’re like “Well, get on it then.”

Paul: Yeah. And even, you know, at work as well as in interviews before they even come to your job. I mean, it’s funny. I was actually in a day of interviews today interviewing for some positions and he asked the regular questions. And at the end, I asked him a few fun questions like, you know, “Okay. So, outside of work, like what do you do for fun? Like what is your driver?” And all of a sudden, they’re almost like surprised. Like they relaxed. They’re surprised that I’m asking them about something personal that they actually enjoy, and it changes the dynamic right away. And then I also ask if they like hamburgers and how they build their favorite hamburger, you know.

John: Right. ‘Cause I’m 100% judging you for that.

Paul: Exactly. You’re gonna get this job based on what you put on that hamburger. But you know, it’s to see if they’re curious, creative, but yeah, the sort of the fun thing. Unfortunately, we don’t talk about that. Like we don’t talk about what we do in our personal life. I guess part of that is all the HR lawyers telling us we can’t ask this, we can’t ask that. Like we’ve gotten to such a point like we don’t wanna say anything ’cause we don’t wanna be taken to court over something we ask, which is unfortunate.

John: Yeah. But I love that during the interview ’cause cause then it’s, you know, I’m gonna be around this person more waking hours than my family. So I’d like to know who you are. And also, if you’re all work all the time, that’s a pretty big red flag because you’re gonna burn out and you’re not a real human. You’re not being honest with yourself. You’re not being honest with me. And yeah, I just don’t think this is gonna work, you know, type of thing.

Paul: Or if their favorite thing is throwing rocks at squirrels, that’s probably a red flag too.

John: Or there’s that. Yeah. There’s also that, or something illegal or taboo, or Skippy, but I love that you ask that, you know, because it matters. I mean, people have expertise that they get from their and that “Oh, that’s good to know. I’ll remember that.” You know, things like that. And that’s cool ’cause you’re hiring the whole person, not just the work part.

Paul: Yeah. I mean, you spend most of your life at work and so with the people that you’re working with. It’s almost like a best friend or a family. Well, maybe not family ’cause not every family wants to hang around each other all the time. But yeah, it is about the whole human being. And you know, people are what make businesses successful, not businesses, not the widgets that they sell, but it’s the people who are involved and their commitment to each other, their excitement of working together.

And yeah, I mean, I think culture is everything and it does come from within like who are you and then who are you in comparison to others who are working with you.

John: Collective. Yeah. No, I love that so much. So much. And I mean, that’s partially with Cowboys & Conductors.

Paul: Exactly.

John: I mean, you know, humanship, which I love that phrase. And if you wanna describe it to everybody listening.

Paul: Yeah. Well, the book is about how my colleague, co-author, Dustin, who’s a true American cowboy horse whisperer— how he works with horses because horses don’t say “Hey, I need some food”, or “Hey, I need this”, or “Hey, I need that.” You have to understand. You have to feel the nuance. You have to feel the body language. And you also have to be centered and present as well so that you can have that sort of unspoken dialogue going on. And that’s horsemanship, you know, to be able to do things with a horse without beating them, whipping them. And humanship is the same thing. You know, being present with each other, really trying to meet people where they are, understand the nuances of what makes them tick.

Not only like you said from professional, but the personal, the drivers, and locking into that and then understanding how you can let them sort of move about and move freely, but also empower them and really truly lock into their energy. But to do that, you have to be centered, and you have to have your own grounded energy and your own grounded framework. And that’s what the book is about. I mean, it’s really more about how do we live, and work, and operate in this world of gray. And so, you know, you can’t just kind of flail around and you can’t just sort of say “Well, this is the path. I’m going that way. To hell with everything else.”

John: Yeah. Not everything is black and white. Most things are gray like you said.

Paul: Exactly. Most things are gray, but you have to have some kind of framework, some kind of foundation. And then that’s what we have talked about in the book, which is gray leadership. You know, this gray leadership and there are ways that you can set a foundation just like you would a house. Right? You can build awesome 2 or 3 stories on top of this foundation, but the foundation is weak or the foundation crumbles, then it doesn’t matter how awesomely built the other floors are. And it’s the same thing with this gray leadership. Like if you can set a foundation and set a framework, then you can pile on anything on top of it, anything good or bad, and react in the moment, you know. And so, it’s that really just kind of being in the moment with people or with horses in Dustin’s case and locking into that natural energy.

John: Yeah. And just having a genuine interest in the people. You know, just care. I mean, it’s so simple, but not easy, I think, for people. I mean, in the same way that Dustin cares about the horses, like we should care about our people, and that’s amazing how much that’s hard or doesn’t happen.

Paul: We also tend to hang around and collect people as friends or colleagues who are like us. Like we just do that naturally as human beings. And so, you know, our point is why don’t you make a beeline for somebody at a party who is completely opposite of you, whatever that means, like a different profession, a different race, a different ethnicity, a different whatever, and go and talk to them. Right? And that’s what people keep saying is like “How did you guys meet? Like what is conductors and cowboys— I mean, what’s the connection?” It’s like “Right. There’s seemingly no connection, yet there is this completely deep connection because we decided to explore each other’s background and lives.”

John: Yeah. And if you’re having a hard time finding somebody, just ask Paul ’cause he’s already observed everyone at the party, and he will point you in the right direction.

Paul: ‘Cause that could be a part-time gig. Right?

John: That could be. Absolutely.

Paul: Cruise director for people.

John: It takes me to like the Love Boat type of scene, but that’s awesome, man. Like I love that philosophy and how it’s all in the same vein, in the same direction of What’s Your “And”? and it’s bringing human to work and operating in that kind of squishy gray area, like you said. So I love that you’re able to help people with that.

Paul: It is figuring out or at least asking about their and, right? We often go to a party or a meeting. It’s like “What do you do?” And what do you do is one thing. I mean, what do you do is so small in scope, but what are you, who are you, what is your and, what drives you, sort of that is so much more important. And you know, I’ve talked to a lot of CEOs of companies, especially like family companies where they’ve sort of ascended to the throne because of their father, or grandfather, or whatever grandmother. And they’re just like “Well, I’ve gotta take over this company ’cause that’s what we do. That’s who our family is.” And I asked them, you know, “What do you love to do? Like what drives you? Is it manufacturing? Do you like just love manufacturing?” He’s “Not really.” And that usually is tied to the failure of their company because they’re not excited about it.

So they’re not really putting the passion and time into it. And there’s a direct correlation to your point between the end and the bottom line. And we don’t think about it that way. We think this and thing is squishy and the gray leadership is— like that’s bluff. Talk to me about the numbers. You gotta talk about the squishy stuff. The squishy stuff will give you the hard stuff about the numbers. There’s the direct correlation that a lot of folks don’t understand or don’t want to believe.

John: I love that so much. And there’s a company that I was reading about recently. It’s called Perrin. It’s a company that’s like helping people see the skills that they get from different jobs even when they’re flipping burgers at McDonald’s, what that translates to in the future. But they refer to these as essential skills. They’re not soft skills. They’re essential skills because the hard skills, in about 10 years, the computer’s gonna do all of those. So the others actually become essential. And I love that. You know, just those essential skills that we all need to have. And yeah, it’s just awesome to hear that parallel ’cause everyone’s either ridden a horse, or seen a horse, or seen a horse movie, or something. The Kentucky Derby, I mean, they’re massive animals and they’re so just majestic. But to be able to tame them and to bring them in, it’s a really cool skillset to have, and humans aren’t much different as wild horses really.

Paul: Kind of what you said is how we have to reframe it. So it’s not about taming this wild beast. This beast is an awesome, fantastic beast just like humans are. Right? And so, when you beat a horse, when you kick it with your spurs, it eventually resigns and sort of stops, and do people. The more you micromanage people, the more you yell at them, there’s a point where they give up. And as opposed to giving them more responsibility, investing more into them, then they sort of on their own blossom, and so do horses. And so, it’s really so many times— and we think about this with relationships too. Like we think if we could just squeeze them and hold them tighter, then they’ll love us more, you know.

John: Right.

Paul: It just doesn’t work.

John: No, their heads pop off.

Paul: Right. Exactly. It doesn’t work that way.

John: Right.

Paul: So why do we keep trying to do that? Like let ’em go. Let ’em blossom. They’ll come back. It’s that saying like if you love something, set it free. If it comes back, you know, it was yours. If it doesn’t, it never was. And that’s a wise saying. And it’s the same kind of philosophy that you gotta let people move around. You know, horses, I found out that when they are fearful of something, they need to move their feet. Like they need to run away from it and then they’ll get to a safe distance and look back, okay, like what was that thing that scared me and then they’ll slowly come back and assess what’s going on. But if you try to hold them from running away, then they’ll kick, and bite, and could actually kill you right in the moment. Same thing with people.

John: Right.

Paul: You gotta let ’em run away. You gotta let ’em go off the deep end for a few days, few moments, and they’ll come back around because that’s how we operate. We need to sometimes just run away from the thing that scares us, but it doesn’t mean that you’re running away forever.

John: No, I love that and yeah. And just harness the talents and the skills and find the right channel to just go ’cause it’s amazing, if you’re able to do that, what can happen.

Paul: Yeah. It’s a trust thing. Right? And then that goes back to being centered yourself ’cause the people who micromanage feel like there’s some sort of insecurity that they have within themselves that they need to then micromanage others so that there’s a control and it just doesn’t work. It’s never worked. You know, I’m dealing with that all this week. It’s like managers who they feel like control is— And as long as I can see you working, then you’re doing a good job. But like if you’re working remotely or if I can’t see what you’re doing, then you obviously must not be working.

John: Even though the finished product is there, but, well, your Keebler elves might have done it. I don’t know. It’s like “Okay, like whatever.” That’s hilarious, man. Such good nuggets, man. Really, really great advice for people listening. Just rewind the last like 10 minutes, and re-listen, and put that into work at your work. Put that into action. So that’s awesome, man. Well, I feel like before wrapping this up, it’s only fair since I peppered you with questions at the beginning that maybe we turned the tables, make this the first episode of The Paul Jan Zdunek podcast. So I’m all yours, man.

Paul: Well, you started in accounting, right? And a lot of people— even I get this still today, it’s like accounting, they’re boring. They just keep their heads down. They’re just bean counters. But you know, obviously, you are not. And how did you make that leap from bean counting to standup comedy?

John: Yeah. Well, you know, it was just always— I was just me in all of the places even when I was at work.

You know, I still had a personality, still had a sense of humor. And when I would ask people in all the careers or even clients that I was visiting through PWC and what have you, it was like “What do you do”, and they’re like “Well, I take this spreadsheet.” “No, I know what that is. Like who are you? Like who else are you?” And it was just so cool to see all the people around us. And so, I was just doing comedy at night for fun. It was just a creative, fun hobby and just an outlet. And then I accidentally got good. And you know, the profession and I decided I should take my talents elsewhere. So then, I went comedy full time. But yeah, I mean, I don’t recommend people do it full time as your hobby ’cause you’re probably not that good at it because that’s why it’s a hobby.

Paul: Yeah. As we talked about earlier, I mean, did that hobby then start seeming like a burden because it was a career?

John: Very much. And so, you have to have an and, another and. You know, it was college football, ice cream, going to concerts. You know, all that’s been always a part of me, but comedy is one that I guess stood out more. But yeah, you have to have those outlets and those things where you’re able to turn your brain off, you’re able to do something, that pure joy. Like I try to tell people like when you talk about work, sometimes it’s fun, but sometimes it’s not. But when I’m talking about going to a concert, it’s always fun. Like it’s always fun. And you can tell when people are talking about their and. Like they light up, their eyes get bigger and yeah.

And certainly, I mean, I did plenty of comedy gigs like a bar at a bowling alley for 100 bucks ’cause, yeah, I need 100 bucks on a Wednesday or a bar where like a football game’s on on like Monday night football and they’re like “Hey, can you turn the comedy down ’cause we’re trying to listen to football?” I mean, just all kinds of stuff like where people are playing pool and they won’t stop playing pool. And it’s like, well, that’s kind of annoying when you’re telling jokes. I mean, all kinds of crazy. But I mean, of course, also really cool big shows and comedy clubs, but you have to work your way up.

Paul: So when people actually were listening to you, was there a moment that just like totally flopped like you’re like I gotta get outta here, that totally landed wrong?

John: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. All the time. Because if you’re not doing that, then you’re not pushing yourself. You know, if you’re playing safe and just doing only the stuff that works, well, then you’re not gonna grow, you know, and you’ll never get new material. And so, yeah. I mean, there’s certainly been plenty of times where I’ve just bombed and I’m just like—

Paul: How do you get out of it?

John: I mean, sometimes it’s fun to be like “Well, I thought that was hilarious. Nobody else— Okay.” You know? And then typically, once you get stronger, your miss is not as far off. Like you’re at least hitting the dart board now, but then you always have a really good joke right after it. So then, even if I lost him for 30 seconds or a minute, I’m gonna get you right back with this half marathon bit. So here we go.

Paul: You’ve gotta have an escape path, I guess, escape—

John: Yeah. Yeah. Or you just call it out and be like “Hey, you know, that was a new one. And apparently, I need to work on it.” Or it’s the other way around. And it’s like first show Friday laughed for about an hour on that joke. That’s on you guys. Like I don’t know what to tell you. You want me to tell it again? I’ll tell it again. Here we go. You know, like I’m just having fun with it type of thing. But yeah, I mean, certainly. Even when I lived in New York, I’ve seen Chris Rock and Gaffigan and, you know, people come in and Seinfeld. And you’re like “Oh man, everything…” No, they’re trying out new stuff. And you know, their miss is still pretty close to the bullseye, but it’s still like “What the hell is that?” You know? “Like I should write for you.” No. But you’re growing and that’s how you get more stuff.

Paul: Yeah. Awesome. Well, that’s a big deal to put yourself out there like that, you know. It’s not easy to do that because, you know, just like being a musician, people are judging you on you’re inside and not what you do. Right? It’s who you are as a person, what your emotions and your intellect. And it’s much more personal when things don’t go well and also much more personal when things go well. It’s euphoria, right?

John: Yeah. No, it really is ’cause you’re the product.

Paul: Yeah, exactly.

John: That’s what’s hard about it. Yeah, it’s not just “Oh, this pen is terrible.” It’s like No, you are terrible.” And it’s like “Wait, what? Like as a person? Ugh.”

Paul: That’s why people say as a musician, actor, comedian, whenever you’re doing something like that, if you don’t absolutely love it and if it’s not something you have to do, then don’t because the criticism personally will tear you down in a second.

John: Yeah. I mean, you dealt with that with your music side. And I mean, every single day, someone punches you in the face, every day, whether it’s an audience member, or it’s a booker, or it’s a comedy club manager, or it’s somebody telling you that you are not good enough. And so, you just have to have that inner fortitude, or that confidence, or enough good shows that you can go back and listen and be like “No, no, no, I am good enough. That’s just on you.”

This was hilarious. There was a comedy club that I was trying to get into. This was back in the day where you could burn your own DVD. So I burned my own DVD and I sent it along with here’s a list of all the comedy clubs I’ve done. And the guy watches, and he calls me, and he says “Hey, that accountant character you’re trying to do is very annoying.” And I’m like “That’s not a character, man. That’s just me.”

Paul: You’re very annoying.

John: Right? Exactly. And I was like “I’m not Larry, the cable guy, who’s not a cable guy at all.” He’s like an IT guy from Nebraska, but like that’s a character. This was me. Like I’m being me. And he’s telling me that that’s annoying. And it’s like “Well, I guess I’m not going to Cleveland.” It’s like “All right.” Yeah, man, it’s hard. It’s hard for sure. Well, this has been so great, Paul. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? Really, really awesome.

Paul: My pleasure. Hope to do it again.

John: Absolutely. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Paul outside of work, or maybe connect with him on social media, or get a copy of the book, Cowboys & Conductors: Conversations on Horseman-Humanship, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check Paul’s book like I said.

So thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use, and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.