Podcast

Welcome to episode 527 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiates you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, Audible, and a few other websites. All of the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and listening to it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon, and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Joe Garafalo. He’s the co-founder of Mosaic out of San Diego. And now, he’s with me here today. Joe, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Joe: Thanks, John. Excited to be here. I appreciate you having me on.

John: Yeah, this is gonna be a blast, but I have 17 rapid-fire questions. Get to know Joe right out of the gate here. So you’re buckled in, seatbelt ready?

Joe: Let’s do it.

John: All right, here we go. I like that. I like that. Easy one. Favorite color.

Joe: Blue.

John: Nice. Mine too. We can keep going. No, I’m just teasing. How about a least favorite color?

Joe: Least favorite color? Orange.

John: Oh, that’s a popular one or a popular to be least popular, I guess. How about are you more talk or text?

Joe: More text.

John: Yeah, okay. All right. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Joe: Favorite actor, probably Brad Pitt. Actress, Jennifer Lawrence.

John: Oh, okay. Yeah. I thought you were gonna say Angelina Jolie just to make it really awkward. How about— Oh this is a good one— Least favorite vegetable.

Joe: Least favorite vegetable, cauliflower.

John: Solid answer right there. Yeah, absolutely. How about Sudoku or Crossword when it comes to puzzles?

Joe: Crossword.

John: Crossword, okay. How about a favorite animal? Any animal at all.

Joe: Leopard.

John: Leopard. Okay.

Joe: Yeah. Big fan of the big cats.

John: Nice. Very cool. That’s awesome. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Joe: Star Wars all the way.

John: Okay. Yeah, me too.

Joe: Big fan. Bigger fan of Lord of the Rings though.

John: Oh, okay. I’ll accept that. Absolutely. Definitely. That’s another great one. How about your computer? More of a PC or a Mac?

Joe: I’m a Mac all the way to the dark side.

John: Oh, okay. All right. How about your toilet paper roll, over or under?

Joe: Over.

John: Over. Yeah. People are really passionate about that one. It’s funny to me. Both sides of it are equally passionate, which makes me laugh. I’m a huge ice cream fan. So do you get ice cream in a cup or a cone?

Joe: Ooh, I do both. I like both. It just depends on, you know, the circumstances. If I can pull off a cone, I’ll do a cone. But if I’m on the go or moving, I’ll do a cup.

John: Yeah, yeah. Or if you can sweet talk ’em in a cup, but the cone on top, that’s the magic right there ’cause I still need the calories from the sugar or the waffle coat. That’s for sure.

Joe: I’m more of like a wafer guy on the cone versus like the waffle.

John: Oh, the old school.

Joe: Yeah.

John: Okay. Nice. Okay. How about a favorite Disney character?

Joe: Oh man, there’s so many good ones.

John: I guess now Star Wars is part of that too, I guess. It’s all of them.

Joe: I’ll go— I think this is a Disney character in some controversy recently, but maybe Captain Jack Sparrow.

John: Oh yeah, okay. There you go. Right. Well, the character, not the person that voiced the character. There you go. Or acted the character. Yeah, that is a fun character actually. Jack Sparrow is awesome. What’s a typical breakfast?

Joe: Typical breakfast, black coffee.

John: Oh nice. Okay. Just going straight at it. Bam!

Joe: It’s a rocket fuel.

John: There you go. There you go. How about a favorite number?

Joe: The #4 has always been near and dear to my heart. Grew up a big hockey guy. New Jersey Devil’s fan. A guy named Scott Stevens was the captain for a long time.

John: Oh, yeah.

Joe: Yeah, he wore #4. I’ve been wearing it ever since.

John: Nice. As good a reason as any. Just a fun one. Balance sheet or income statement.

Joe: Income statement all the way.

John: Right. Right. Balance sheet is not paying the rent. It’s like here we go.

Joe: The balance sheet is decidedly unsexy.

John: Right. That might be the best line ever set on this podcast ever. And we are 527 episodes in. That’s impressive. That’s awesome. All right, we got two more. When it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Joe: Oh, man, I’m not an audio book guy. I would love like a real book, but just it’s easier to do e-Books these days.

John: Yeah. Plus, you can carry hundreds of them with you in your device.

Joe: Exactly. I do have a signed copy of the book Zero to One by Peter Thiel, which is probably my prized book possession.

John: Yeah. I mean, that leads right into the last question of what’s the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Joe: Can it be my dog?

John: Yeah! Absolutely. It can be whatever you want.

Joe: She’s definitely the light of my life.

John: That’s very cool. And what kind of dog is it?

Joe: She’s a Cavapoo, so half Cavalier and half mini poodle.

John: Oh, wow. Nice. And Coconut sounds like an appropriate name. That’s very cool. Well, let’s talk poker and how did you get started. Was it mostly when you were younger or did you have like that really crazy cool aunt that liked playing like Tatcha poker or something?

Joe: Yeah. So in the early days, my grandpa actually taught me the game and we used to play with like my grandpa, my uncles. And instead of chips, we used to use like pretzel rods—

John: Oh, yeah!

Joe: …as chips. And then I think I really got into it around I think it was like 2002-2003 when Chris Moneymaker won the World Series of Poker and ESPN started playing the World Series of Poker on TV. And I think like in high school then, all of our friends kind of like got the poker bug. So we would have a ton of games in high school. And then after playing a lot in high school, we went over to college, went to college in New York City. So it’s hard to find a poker game. So transitioned to the online world. Back then, Full Tilt poker was kind of like the leader in the space. So I played a lot there and got really lucky. Won a really big tournament. It was like a 5-dollar buy-in. One of those like 10,000 people would buy in. It was over a couple different days and that money helped me buy my first car in college. And ever since then,—

John: That’s awesome.

Joe: …I was addicted.

John: Yeah. ‘Cause then it’s like “What?! I’m up now forever.” You know?

Joe: Exactly.

John: Everything is house money. That’s awesome, man. That’s so cool. I mean, 10,000 people to win that is pretty awesome. I mean, is it a lot of bluffing or is it a lot of like just getting good cards or— I’m sure that there’s a strategy to a lot of it, I guess. If you’re not getting the cards, do you ride it out sometimes or how does that work?

Joe: Yeah, I think it’s like well-timed aggression is kind of the key. But I mean, to win a poker tournament like that, you’ve gotta get lucky. Right? Anyone who says differently is kind of lying. You need the cards to run in your favor. So a little bit of luck can’t hurt. I’d rather be lucky than good any day of the week.

John: Right. Right. Yeah. And then when you know you got the good hand, then you go all in. And like you said, the timed aggression, that’s exactly how it is. And that’s awesome. So do you have like some favorite memories? I’m sure playing with the pretzel sticks has gotta be one of the cool ones. I mean, that’s super fun.

Joe: Oh, yeah, I’ve definitely taken some fun poker trips with friends to Vegas or to the East coast. I was up to Connecticut where we just— We’d go there and we play poker for 72 hours straight. Just drink coffee and just play for hours.

John: That’s cool.

Joe: There was like a really poor memory though. Like one day in college towards my senior year, there was this event called Black Friday. And Black Friday is when like the Department of Justice shut down all the online poker sites and like everything just turned off.

John: Right.

Joe: It was like a big heartbreaking day. So definitely took more of a hiatus in poker when you couldn’t play online anymore and then kind of transitioned to “Hey, let’s still be a student in the game. Let’s read a lot of poker books. That way, I can at least stay in touch with the thing that I love.” And you know, during that hiatus of no online poker— It’s slowly coming back state by state, which has been really cool to see. I hope California does it soon. But I did pick up this book by Annie Duke. And if you don’t know Annie Duke, she’s one of the best poker players in the world. She’s super smart, really, really bright.

I think she’s like an Ivy League grad, but she wrote this book called Thinking in Bets. And she just talks about how there’s so much similarity to life and to business that there is to a poker game. And that really resonated with me ’cause it’s like my two passions, business and poker kind of converging. And I’ve seen so much similarity to starting the company and running the company to actually like being at a poker table playing in this high stakes game.

John: Yeah. And I was gonna ask like how much does this translate over? Because I mean, it’s a muscle group that you’re exercising outside of work. But then when you get to work and that opportunity arises maybe for the timed aggression or whatever, that sort of mentality, then it’s like “Well, I’m ready to go ’cause I’ve been doing this outside of work for days, and weeks, and years type of thing. So what do you feel like it does translate over?

Joe: Oh, man, there’s so many different points, I think. So the first thing, right, is when we were starting a company and I run a startup. We’re about 100 employees. We’ve raised close to 50 million in a venture-backed capital.

John: Congrats, man. That’s awesome.

Joe: Appreciate it. It’s not easy. It’s definitely not easy. In poker, you’re allotted this stack of chips. And those chips are your war chest. And just like in business, your cash balance is your war chest, and you have to allocate those chips for that capital the same way that you allocate chips to a poker hand. And a lot of times, you’re putting chips into the middle of the table. You’re allocating capital to the business on experiments, things that you’ve never done before that you’re hoping yield results.

But the key to being a good poker player is like folding and cutting your losses when things aren’t going your way. So how you manage your chip stack and how you place your bets on different experiments that you’re hoping will yield good results goes a long way. So that chip management and like cash management definitely see some similarities there.

John: That’s such a perfect analogy really when you think about it. You know, that’s exactly it. And at no point in college did anyone tell you “Hey, go learn how to play poker ’cause it will make you better at starting your business and running your business.” But it clearly does. That’s a cool byproduct. And another big thing in like the tournaments that we talked about earlier, 10,000 people, it’s patience. Right? It’s like you have to be patient. So poker teaches you patience. It teaches you how you need to make this stack of chips or stack of cash in business go a long way. And you can go a long way if you’re patient, but we also talked a little bit earlier about like the time aggression. Right?

So in poker, when you see the opportunity, you have to kind of attack it aggressively. And you know, there’s a saying in poker, “When you go all in, all your chips are in the middle of the table. And if this doesn’t work, then you’re out.” I think the same is true in business. Like if you see a market opportunity, you gotta go out there and seize it. ‘Cause if it’s not you, it’s gonna be somebody else. So the timed aggression and then like putting your chips all in, going after something you learn when to do it and when not to do it pretty quickly.

John: Yeah. Like the phrase, burn the boats. It’s like “Well, there’s no alternative. Like this is it. We gotta make this work.” And then, you know, you’re not sorta half leaning in. It’s like “No, we’re all in on this, let’s make this happen” type of thing.

Joe: I love that phrase. I love it.

John: Yeah. Because it’s good alliteration too. It’s a lot of Bs in there and all that, so it’s nice. So is poker something that comes up in conversation at work?

Joe: Maybe between me and my co-founders a little bit, but probably not in normal conversation with other employees.

John: Well, yeah. Or if you find out someone else does like poker, then magic happens.

Joe: Exactly.

John: ‘Cause some people just in their head think “Oh, well, people are gonna judge or people are gonna whatever.” Whatever their “and” is. And we’re not in sixth grade anymore. It’s like “No, no, now it’s cool. Like everything’s cool. As long as it’s not illegal or super taboo, you know, then it’s awesome.”

Joe: Exactly. And poker tends to have sort of a negative connotation with some people ’cause they consider it to be gambling, but I think there is just so much math that is rooted in the game that if you play the math and you play the odds right over a long time horizon, you win. And you’re not playing against the house, right? You’re playing against other people. So the things that you accumulate, the things that you pick up on are things that you can use to your advantage. And if you think about it, I lead our sales and marketing team over at Mosaic. And marketing was relatively new to me because before that, I was a finance guy. You and I were just talking we both cut our teeth at the big four. So marketing was this entire new world.
And the same way that you have to market your business, the product, your team, you have to market yourself at the poker table as well. If you’re too loose and you’re playing too many pots, people are gonna try to chase you ’cause they can assume the hands that you’re playing are probably not the greatest strength. Right? The same goes for marketing and business. It’s like where are you gonna put your chips? When are you gonna put your chips in? Are you establishing thought leadership? Are you just saying things that aren’t true? Are you representing hands that you don’t actually have? Those are a lot of similarities in how that works. Same goes for kind of like pricing.

John: Yeah. I mean, it’s just amazing how much just that mindset and that mentality just helps out. That’s really cool. And I guess how much do you feel like it matters that people have a hobby that work around you now at Mosaic, but even before and throughout your career? How much does it matter that people have these outside of work hobbies or interests? Or is it more like “Eh, do whatever you’re gonna do and like we don’t need to know about ’em” sort of thing or like where do you guys at like out of Mosaic— Are there ways that people share or is that a thing?

Joe: I think everybody’s got their hobbies, right? I think whether or not you can find how those hobbies relate to your everyday career, maybe it’s a different story. Like we have a bunch of employees over at Mosaic that are like big advocates of barbecue and smoking. I’m sure we can find some— Like I’m sure the patience thing is true. Like to make a good brisket, you need hours. You can’t like rush it.

John: Overnight.

Joe: Exactly.

John: Yeah. Right?

Joe: For sure. But I think those hobbies are important, right? Like to stay sharp, to avoid burnout, to find passion outside of work.

John: I totally agree and it’s cool to hear that like you know what some of those things are that light people up, you know. ‘Cause I would imagine that the conversation at work is a lot more fun when it involves some of those things on occasion than just all work all the time sort of thing like you said with the burnout and especially in the last 2 years. I mean, whew, I mean that’s been heavy.

Joe: It’s been heavy for everyone for sure. And even to this day. So I’ve been leading our marketing team for about 2-1/2 to 3 years now. We have a Friday retro where we just talk about how we did over the last week.

We still start that session with icebreakers every Friday just to hear like “Hey, what are you guys up to?” What’s going on in our personal lives. That way, we can kind of stay in tune. We’ve got some big fans of Disney characters as well. I’m gonna ask him what he thinks about my Jack Sparrow comment earlier.

John: Right? Yeah. I mean, it’s just the things that like light up our soul almost. And you can just see it in their eyes and in their tone of voice. And they’re animated and like all these things about the person and then, you know, you ask them about the work product and it’s very monotone. Sometimes it’s exciting and sometimes it’s animated, but not every time. But every single time somebody’s talking about poker or smoking meat, that’s awesome. Like every time, it’s awesome type of thing. And if you can harness that energy in the work setting, then magic.

Joe: For sure. And a lot of the roles that we have at the company are creative roles, right? So we’re talking about software engineers, we’re talking about marketers, we’re talking about product designers. So I think the hobbies and the influences outside of work help them kind of bring their best selves and most creative selves to the work product.

John: I love that. Talk about people having stigmas. I mean, I did comedy and everybody thinks they know what a standup comedian is, and what it’s like, and what standup comedy is. And you don’t. You know, it can be anything. I mean, there’s clean as well as super dirty. And no, not all of them are what you think they’re supposed to be, the comedians, you know, offstage or whatever. But that creative side of me did give me a total unplug from the accounting work that I was doing during the day when I still had the day job. You know? And so, it’s just so important to just like take your mind off of the work for even just a little bit to come back fresh. I feel like so many people just hammer away at the billable hour or at the hours in general. And it’s like that doesn’t always equal best product at the end. So it’s encouraging to hear that a founder, someone like you is also thinking that way, that I’m not crazy I guess.

Joe: No, definitely not crazy. I mean, even if poker’s not your thing, it’s like maybe you’re a competitive runner and you’re again ready for the marathon training and competing, trying to beat not only other folks in the field, but like your personal best or trying to get under a certain number of hours in the marathon. Those things go a long way to like continuing to build your competitive drive in the workplace. Not only so you can beat the competition, but also so that like you can bring your best self to the office and continue to push yourself and grow and advance your career.

John: Yeah. Plus, those runners, man, I mean, they have that inner fortitude when like the going gets tough. It’s like “Yeah, no, we’re only on like mile 17. We’ve got plenty more in us.” And you’re like “I’m going to home.” Like crazy.

Joe: My legs hurt, I can’t breathe, but you keep pushing.

John: Right? And they just power through and I’m like “Oh, God bless you guys.” No, but that’s such a great point. And different people have different expertise, if you will, from their “ands” that they are able to bring to the table. And knowing what their “and” is means that now I can tap into your expertise a little bit more and let you light it up as well, which is cool. Do you have any words of encouragement to people listening that maybe feel like I’ve got “and”, but no one’s gonna care ’cause it has nothing to do with my job?

Joe: I think I would encourage everybody to find their “and”, right? Like you have a long life to live. There’s many things, many career choices that you’re gonna have. And what you do, who you are at the end of it is the product of all the experiences that you’ve had. So you never know when those things are gonna come up. And learning new skills and how those skills that you’ve learned translate to other things, you’d be shocked to see some of the connections that get formed.

John: Yeah, no, and I love that too of where you said, you know, you’re gonna have several different careers, but that “and” is gonna be with you forever. I mean that poker was with you from college, to big four, to other jobs, to now mosaic, so that’s never changed. Now, you’re in marketing. It’s like still poker. Like you’re not doing the accounting. You’re not doing the finance, but still the poker is there. And that’s sort of the eye of the hurricane I guess, if you will, where everything else is just swirling around and changing, and that’s just steady.

Joe: And it’s not even business, right? Like in a poker game, everybody has imperfect information. And you’re doing your best to make the best decisions with the imperfect information that you have. So for me, poker can apply not only to business, just everyday life and everyday decisions. It’s like how do you weigh the consequences, or the risks, or the cause and the effect of the things that you’re gonna do. And you can’t always know the answer. Right? Annie Duke’s book, she talks a lot about kind of separating the outcome from the decision. And I think that principle alone can like stay with a person through life.

John: Yeah, that’s pretty deep right there. Yeah. Not being outcome based but just if you gave it your best, well, then that’s what you can actually focus on. Sometimes the outcome is out of your control.

Joe: Exactly. And it’s math, right? So I think the interest in math from high school days keep the interest in finding ways to use math in different games. And the odds are in your favor, but sometimes those 30%, 20% chances do come true, in which case you made the right decision. It wasn’t the outcome that you wanted. But if you keep making the right decisions, you’ll eventually get those outcomes.

John: Right. Exactly. No, that’s awesome, man. Well, this has been super fun. I feel like before we wrap it up though, I peppered you with so many questions at the beginning that it might be fair if I turn the tables and make this the first episode of The Joe Garafalo Podcast. So if you want to ask me any questions, I’m all yours. Fire away. Whatever you want to ask, I’m all yours.

Joe: Yeah, it sounds like one of your “ands” is comedy. How has comedy come back to help you throughout like all the different careers that you have? And I know at least three, right? You had the accounting job and the big four. You’ve had the podcast host and comedians. I’m curious how comedies continued to help you advance you.

John: So I started it when I was at PWC. We were at a training in LA. There were five of us that rented a car from the hotel and went to the improv in Hollywood to see— Whose Line Is It Anyway would tape during the day or in the evening. And then they would come down and do 45 minutes uncensored in the middle of a 3-hour standup show of a bunch of comedians doing 15- to 20-minute sets. Yeah. And so, I think in PWC days and in my accounting. I mean, it just always gave me a puzzle to be working on and just figuring out even just like how humans think and how they work, but also just a sense of humor about things. Like if you’re not laughing, you’re crying, so let’s laugh.

I mean, just the lens that I see the world through is just different than other people because I see absurdities, or incongruencies, or things that are humorous that not everybody does. And then as a comedian, it’s your job to then paint the picture for strangers so they see what you’re seeing. And so, it made me a better communicator for sure, and it gave me an identity. I mean, the whole What’s Your “And”? started because 12 years after I left my first PWC office, someone I never met— ’cause he was in the tax department and I’m one of the coolest CPAs that doesn’t know how taxes work— he remembered me and told the meeting planner “Oh, I know John Garrett. That’s the guy who did comedy at night at this huge conference.” And I’m like “I don’t even know who you are.”

And I feel like we all deserve to be remembered 12 years later. And it’s not gonna be for the work, or the number of hours, or the whatever. You know, it’s gonna be for who you are as a person. And a lot of times, we don’t let the human side out and companies don’t even care about the human side or even know there’s a human side that’s there, you know. So it’s really helped me to be confident when I’m on stage speaking, a lot of keynotes at conferences, a lot of addressing partner groups or C-suites. Look, I’ve done a Friday night late show in New York City, so I’m not scared of any group of executives for a second. It’s just I don’t care. You know, I’ve auditioned for Last Comic Standing, I’ve done all kinds of high intense shows and a lot of pressure, so I got this. So it is certainly a skill that, similar to poker, plays out in a lot of different ways for sure.

Joe: Yeah.

John: Plus, I mean, it’s just fun to laugh, so—

Joe: Oh, yeah.

John: …that’s always good.

Joe: Yeah. If you ever need a new career, I’m sure you’d be a killer sales rep if you can make people laugh.

John: Right? That’s true actually. Who knows? Yeah. It’s like whatever. “But John said—” “Oh, he’s a comedian. Mosaic doesn’t actually do that. It doesn’t cook your dinner also.” It’s like “What? Who told you that?” That’s funny. That’s awesome, man. Very cool. Well, I appreciate you taking time to be a part of What’s Your “And”? and really appreciate it, Joe. Thanks.

Joe: Awesome, John. Well, thanks again for having me. It was fun to be here.

John: Totally. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Joe outside of work or maybe connect with them on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture and don’t forget to read the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread. That who you are is so much more than what you.

Welcome to episode 525 of What’s Your “And”? this is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show’s about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. It’s so kind of the Independent Press Awards to name it a distinguished favorite a couple of months ago. And the book goes more in depth into the research behind why these outside work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it. And thanks for writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Elandas Miller. He’s a senior business analyst and Scrum master at Cognizant Softvision in Atlanta, Georgia. And now he’s with me here today. Elandas, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Elandas: Thanks, John. I’m super happy to be here. Thanks for taking the time on this Thursday afternoon to talk to me about what I like to do when I’m not doing my business analyst and Scrum master work ’cause I love talking about stuff outside of the regular 9 to 5.

John:: No, that’s awesome. And you’re the first Scrum master I’ve had on the show, so what is that?

Elandas: Yeah. Scrum is like a methodology or framework where you’re using like the software development lifecycle. So it’s like a whole bunch of like manifestos and all type of things you should do and not do and just a little interesting.

John:: That’s a cool label, man. I love it. I might just add that to mine just for kick.

Elandas: Sounds fancy.

John:: It is fancy, but I have some rapid fire questions to get to know you a little bit better. And we’re not gonna count the Scrum question as one of them. So here we go. So here we go. Favorite color?

Elandas: Blue.

John:: Blue. Solid. Mine too. How about a least favorite color?

Elandas: Orange.

John:: Oh, okay. Yeah, that’s a pretty good one too. Yeah. And pretty popular least favorite if that makes sense.

Elandas: It’s weird color.

John:: It is. Yeah. Yeah. ‘Cause it can get bright in a hurry. And then how about do you prefer talk or text?

Elandas: I’m definitely more of a texter.

John:: Oh, okay. All right. That works. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Elandas: Favorite actor is— I have like two of them— Will Smith and Leonardo DiCaprio. And my favorite actress I think is Angelina Jolie.

John:: Okay, yeah, there you go. I thought you were gonna say Will Smith and Chris Rock, and I would’ve been like “What?!” Like that’s amazing.

Elandas: Yeah. I don’t know.

John:: That was wild. That was wild. Oh, here’s one. Cats or dogs?

Elandas: Definitely dogs.

John:: Definitely dogs. Me too, man.

Elandas: Yeah.

John:: Absolutely. How about a favorite movie of all time?

Elandas: Man, I’m a moviegoer, so it’s hard for me to pick one.

John:: Oh, so more than one. Go nuts.

Elandas: I like Transformers, The Bad Boys movies, Harry Potter movies.

John:: Oh, you’re all over the board on that. Okay.

Elandas: Yeah. Toy Story.

John:: Yeah. That’s a great movie, man.

Elandas: Yeah.

John:: That’s such a great movie. Very good. Okay. All right. How about when it comes to puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzle?

Elandas: Oh, man, all three of those give me headaches. I like Sudokus.

John:: Oh, okay. All right. All right. I was gonna say none of them counts too, man. That’s all good. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Elandas: Star Wars for sure. I’m a ’90s baby, so I think I grew up on Star Wars mostly.

John:: How about your computer? More of a PC or a Mac?

Elandas: I think more of a Mac now.

John:: Oh, really? Okay. All right. That’s awesome. And I am not cool enough to even go into a Mac store I don’t think. They’re like “Sir, we’re gonna have to ask you to leave.” It’s like “What?”

Elandas: I have a Mac computer, but I have an Android phone, so I get a lot of pushback on that.

John:: That’s normally the opposite.

Elandas: Yeah.

John:: That’s amazing. All right. Good for you. How about toilet paper roll over or under?

Elandas: I don’t pay too much attention to it to be honest.

John:: Yeah. As long as it’s there.

Elandas: Yeah.

John:: Like as long as it’s there. All right. There we go. How about ice cream in a cup or in a cone?

Elandas: Definitely in a cone.

John:: Yeah. Okay.

Elandas: Messy, but the cone is extra sugary.

John:: Exactly. You get some extra bonus there. There you go. How about a favorite Disney character? There’s like a gazillion of ’em, so really anything animated I’ll take. Like it’s fine.

Elandas: We recently watched a Goofy movie. so I would say Max. He’s goofy’s son, Max.

John:: Oh! Wow! I didn’t even know Goofy had a son. Okay, all right. Yeah, I’m a huge Goofy fan.

Elandas: He doesn’t have a wife, but he has a son. I don’t know how that works.

John:: Right? Right? I don’t either. I mean, half of ’em aren’t wearing pants, so who knows? It just happens. How about, since you have the accounting background here, balance sheet or income statement?

Elandas: Definitely balance sheet.

John:: Okay, there you go. Three more. A typical breakfast.

Elandas: Pancakes, eggs, bacon, toast.

John:: Okay, there you go. All out.

Elandas: Yes. I love breakfast.

John:: No lunch and no dinner. Just all out.

Elandas: The most important meal of the day.

John:: Your own Denny’s Grand Slam right there. That’s great. How about a favorite number?

Elandas: I like 33. I was a 33 growing up playing sports.

John:: Nice. That’s a good number too. Yeah. There you go. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Elandas: Right now, I think the favorite thing that I have is I have a Quest 2 VR set, so I can play like VR games and put it on my headset and stuff. That’s pretty fun.

John:: Yeah. That’s awesome. Okay. Very cool. Very cool. So let’s talk, yeah, I guess just planning sporting events and activities and getting people together. Like how did that start?

Elandas: Yeah. So I always grew up playing sports. I think I started playing baseball like at 4 years old. I played all the way through like elementary, middle school, play a little bit of high school. And then college, I played like IM sports. I went to University of Georgia. Go Dogs!

John:: Yeah, you got the national championship finally. There you go. All right.

Elandas: Shameless plug out there.

John:: Absolutely, man. Absolutely.

Elandas: Like after graduating, I wanted to get more involved into like being active and stuff ’cause I was just working like 9 to 5 and come back home going to sleep, being stuck in traffic, and doing that every day over and over again. So I joined like a sports league, and I noticed there were some like gaps that could be filled. So I came up with the idea of like hosting some sporting events, trying to get people together, and then just kind of like making it a more of a whole entire experience. So we have like all types of stuff going on at one time, and we just do like live music. Some local artists may come out there and perform. We got like kickball going, and dodge ball, and Ultimate Frisbee. So it’s a pretty fun time.

John:: And it’s all happened at the same time or is it like we’re gonna go from dodge ball to Ultimate Frisbee?

Elandas: Yeah, we go from like kickball to dodge ball.

John:: Oh, okay.

Elandas: Frisbee then kickball. It just depends on—

John:: It’s like an all afternoon sort of a thing.

Elandas: Yeah.

John:: It’s a commitment.

Elandas: It’s like 3 to 4 hours. Yeah.

John:: Good for you, man. And what was the first one?

Elandas: It was back in 2017. I think it’s September 2017. Me and my friends basically got together. We had like some food and then we just got together, played some games, just played some Frisbee and stuff like that. Some little bit of kickball. So it was pretty cool. It was very chill. We didn’t have that many people come out there at that one. But yeah, just having fun. So that’s the most important thing always, just to get people together, laugh a little bit and have fun.

John:: And I love how it’s an experience. I mean, you got the local music going, you know, live music going as well. And there’s food and there’s all kinds of stuff. So it’s not just “Hey, show up, play kickball, and then leave.”

Elandas: Exactly. Yeah.

John:: It’s “No, no, we’re hanging out. We’re gonna get to know each other.” Yeah. That’s awesome, man. I love it so much. And do you have like a more rewarding memory from doing this?

Elandas: Yeah. Well, a lot of my events have a lot of different fun memories from ’em. So I think just the funny moments of like adults trying to kick a ball, girls and guys missing the ball, and people get hit in the head. We don’t condone getting hit in the head, but it’s always pretty funny when someone’s head go “Pook!” You get hit in the head with the ball. But we always try to like aim for the lower part of the body.

John:: I’m also not a good thrower either, so what do you want, you know?

Elandas: Some people kicking in park home run, so they’re just running around the whole base the whole time. People just chasing them, trying to tag them, all kinds of stuff out there.

John:: That’s so great, man. That’s super awesome. I thought you were gonna be like the time OutKast came down and then I was like “What?!”

Elandas: We’re not there yet. That’s the goal. To get some big artists from Atlanta to come out.

John:: Soon enough, man. Soon enough. After we get you on What’s Your “And”?, that’s gonna happen. They listen. I’m pretty sure OutKast listens to this, but that’s so cool to hear, man. And kudos for you for just creating it from scratch and making it happen. And do you feel like any of the skillset, whether it’s from playing the sports or from organizing these events, translates to work?

Elandas: Yeah, definitely. So like as a Scrum Master, you have to like roll with the punches. You have to like be able to lead your team, and get everybody on the same page, and organize people. And I think entrepreneurship has a lot of similar qualities from like how I do my 9 to 5. It’s a lot of overlap of different characteristics and skills that’s needed to be entrepreneurs. So, definitely a lot of translation.

John:: Yeah. And it’s cool how the work makes the entrepreneur side of you stronger, but then probably that muscle group as well then, you know, it’s just an infinite loop going back and forth. And it’s not why you do the sports leagues, but it certainly is a cool added benefit to it as well. And it’s cool to hear that that’s a thing. Plus, I mean, I imagine— I mean, who doesn’t like to just kickball and stuff like that? It’s like be a kid again. You know, like why not? That’s cool, man. I love it. That’s super awesome. And is this something that you talk about with colleagues at work?

Elandas: Yeah, I used to talk about a little bit more, but not recently.

John:: Sure. Well, COVID made everything weird.

Elandas: Yeah. Correct. We don’t have as much like office conversations ’cause most of us still work remote. We go in office like maybe a couple times a month or so. We’re not really talking too much about our entrepreneurial endeavors or side projects.

John:: Right. I mean, whether it makes money or not, it’s still a cool thing on the side.

Elandas: Yeah, it is.

John:: And that’s why the “and” is I’m a Scrum Master and I just love sports. Like I love it so much, I’m organizing it, you know. That’s like I can’t buy the Falcons, but we can play flag football.

Elandas: Exactly.

John:: You know, like there’s that.

Elandas: Basically, that’s how I came out. Like I wanted to be an owner of a game or sports team one day, so maybe this will lead to it or just kind of like loving the game, being involved. I love playing anything so like you catch me playing volleyball, or tennis, or swimming. Not a great swimmer, but I just like being active.

John:: Yeah. I love how you said that. Like you don’t have to be good at it. I mean, this isn’t the Olympics, so it doesn’t matter. You know, it brings me joy and that’s all that matters. Like that’s the thing I find is so many people wanna be this alpha something or whatever. And it’s like “No, no, I’m doing it for me.” You know, I enjoy swimming. Well, am I good at it? Who cares? I enjoy it. I didn’t ask for your approval like type of thing. So that’s cool, man. And it’s cool that you share it too ’cause sometimes I think we can get our own heads of “Well, people are gonna judge me for playing kickball.” It’s like “Well who plays that after eighth grade?” “I do.”

Elandas: Yeah.

John:: You know?

Elandas: Play a lot of stuff.

John:: Yeah. Did it ever cross your mind as like when people might something? I don’t know.

Elandas: No, not really. I never really thought about what people would think about me being in sports leagues or hosting events. As long as it makes me happy and I have fun, that’s the most important thing. That’s all I really worry about.

John:: Yeah, maybe the toy story thing, they’re gonna think about—

Elandas: The Toy Story, yeah, they might judge me on Toy Story.

John:: Well, then they’re not your friends anyway, so they they should get out. Get out. Yeah. But that’s cool, man. ‘Cause, I mean, I was the same way. People were like “What’d you do this weekend?” “Well, you know, I did this comedy club.” Like “What?” I was like “Oh, I didn’t know I was supposed to tell you what I actually did.” Yeah. Like I didn’t know. Like are we making stuff up now? Like I didn’t know. So yeah, that’s awesome, man. And do you feel like connections are different from people that you have shared things with or people that are interested in these versus people that don’t know that side of you?

Elandas: Not necessarily. I feel like I’m a pretty simple person like what you see is what you get. So sometimes I share people depending on like where I meet ’em or what type of circumstances. And if they ask like what other projects I have going on or something like that, then I share. But if I’m like at a networking event, of course, I’m sharing like what I’m doing like my entrepreneurial endeavors and what projects I’m working on. But definitely, I do share by people who like has interest. Maybe we’re talking about like sports and they say like they hoop or like they play flag football or something. I’m like “Oh, I also host events. You should come out to one of our events or whatever.” But usually, it just depends. I don’t think I have a closer relationship with people who don’t know who do know. But usually, my closer friends do know that I host events cause they’ve been to the actual events.

John:: Yeah. Right? But I mean, it’s like you just have something different to talk about at work besides the work. It’s just a human connection there that’s cool above and beyond the work. And so, that’s great where it’s you have something that you can straight up invite them to. It’s like “Oh, you this. Well, we’re doing it in 2 weeks. Why don’t you come?” And then all of a sudden, they’re like “Well, I used to play. I’m not very good at it.”

Elandas: I’m getting old. My back is going out or my knees.

John:: Right, right, right. Okay. We’ll call you coach.

Elandas: You referee the game for us.

John:: Right, right. Referee. There you go. That’s so cool, man. That’s so cool. And I guess one thing that I’d like to go back and forth on or think about is how much do you feel like it’s on an organization, a company to create space for people to be able to share or to even care that people have an outside of work life? You know, basically, my whole thing is are you live in your best life? Managers should be asking or how much is it on the individual to just, you know what, I’m just gonna start my little circle and get going from there?

Elandas: Yeah. I think management could possibly like make a safer place to share like what people do outside of work. Or as long as it’s like positive, I don’t think any crazy stuff, but—

John:: No, no, no. Then it’s unprofessional.

Elandas: Yeah.

John:: Like, yeah, I think that’s not good.

Elandas: Keep it professional or whatever.

John:: But just, you know, not illegal. Let’s start there. You know? Or taboo.

Elandas: Exactly.

John:: Or controversial. Just what lights you up?

Elandas: You just ask like “Hey, how’s your weekend or like what did you do specifically this weekend?” Usually, ours is pretty like top of the layer conversation. So like, yeah, we hang out with friends, or went to the movies, or stuff like that. Yeah.

John:: Yeah. But then I find if you listen and then have one or two follow-up questions, then you get to the cool stuff. “Oh, you went to the movies. What movie did you see?” And then it’s like “Oh, how did you like it” or “Oh, did you see the first one” or whatever type of thing. Now, all of a sudden “bam” like we’re going back and forth or I didn’t know you were Transformers too.

What” Like now, all of a sudden, we’re talking about all that.

Elandas: Yeah.

John:: Yeah. So that’s awesome. It’s just listening and having a follow-up question or two and then that’s where you can sort of crack it open ’cause you’re right. It’s like “How you doing?” “Fine. Fine.” Well, that’s not being honest.

Elandas: Exactly. It’s kinda going with emotions at that point.

John:: Yeah. And it’s not really creating that true connection for sure. So do you have any words of encouragement for people listening that are like, you know what, I have a hobby but I don’t think anyone’s gonna care ’cause it has nothing to do with my work?

Elandas: Yeah. Definitely. I would say you want to share as much as possible or whoever you’re comfortable with or at least try to get into a community. I think communities, there’s a lot of people that have similar hobbies that we all share. So just being able to get into that community or like I know they have online communities, in-person communities. You have like discordmeetups.com, even Airbnb communities these days. So there’s a lot of different areas or places that you can kind of be comfortable, be yourself, and be able to talk about those things that you might not be comfortable talking with your like other core group of friends or they might not have like the same interest. So just put yourself out there. Look for those communities and those safe places and just have fun and enjoy it.

John:: Yeah, I love it ’cause, I mean, only good comes from that, you know. When it’s one of those things that’s just like I genuinely light up from this and all of a sudden you meet someone else and it’s like “What?” I mean, if you never told anybody you liked like kickball, then you’re just sitting around getting angry that you can’t play kickball. But all of a sudden, you start to share with people “Hey, I like playing kickball?” “You too? All right. Now, we got a team. All right. Now, we get another team. Now, let’s play.” You know?

Elandas: Yeah. It’s like “He told me that he liked it too. Maybe we can get together with him. And she’s told me that she liked it. She played last week, so maybe we all can get together.”

John:: And then you’re like “You know what? I’m just gonna create the whole league. Like how about we just go all out on this?” Like that’s cool, man. That’s awesome and such great advice. You know, find that community so you don’t feel alone ’cause you’re not the only one I promise.

Elandas: Yeah. Exactly.

John:: You’re not the only one. And even if no one does it, they at least are interested in it.

Elandas: Yeah. There’s a lot of people who may not share. Like for example, I’m a pretty big anime fan, but I don’t really share a lot of people that I like anime, but a lot of my friends, we watch it together and talk about it. We share each other passwords for like the animation online Crunchyroll account. So the more you share, the more you know things that come to you, you get more and more great things happen to you that way.

John:: I love that. That’s such great advice right there. The more you share, the more the universe opens up for you. I like that. Yeah. ‘Cause we always feel like, well, I’m the only one that. Nah, you don’t know that. You don’t know that. And I’m gonna challenge you that you’re not. So like unless it’s like sword swallowing, okay, I’ll give you that one. You’re probably the only one on that one.

Elandas: Like spinning fire.

John:: Right. Yeah. You never know. I mean, maybe not. There was somebody on the podcast that’s actually a fire breather.

Elandas: Oh, wow. That’s cool.

John:: Yeah. So it’s like “Well, I know one.” So it’s kind of cool. But yeah, that’s awesome, man. Such great advice and I really appreciate, yeah, you being a part of this. And I feel like since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning that we turn the tables and we’ll make this The Elandas Miller Podcast. And so, I’m all yours man. Thanks for booking me on as a guest. I booked myself I’m not gonna lie, but like here we go.

Elandas: I had a question for you, John. You do a lot of different stuff, so I was like reading your bio. So I know you went to school at Notre Dame. You got just like CPA. You did music at one point. You’re like an author. So like how do you find time to like do all these interests, a podcast? Like how do you balance all these things that you love doing?

John:: That’s a great question ’cause, I mean, you know, I encourage people to not just have one “and.” Like you can have more. The title of the book should probably be What’s Your “Ands”?, you know, with an S, but that’s probably not grammatically correct because they have more than one, you know. And you don’t have to do them all every day, you know. You just have to be intentional about making time for them. Yeah. In the fall, every Saturday for 4 hours, I’m watching Notre Dame football. And I’m probably also watching another game or two as well, you know. But you just make time for it. And if it’s important to you, if it brings you joy, then go do it. And that’s on Saturday. So I’m not doing the podcast on Saturdays. I’m not, you know, any other things. And writing a book though, whoo, that is a process. Like you really gotta wanna write the book. Yeah, I’m really proud of how it turned out. So you know, that’s that side of it. But yeah, I mean, I love going to concerts as well, but it doesn’t have to be something that’s every day, or every week, or even every month. It’s like twice a year I like to do a 5K walk for charity. Okay, cool, go do that. You know? Like whatever it is. But be intentional about making time for it even just a little bit so you don’t—

Elandas: Yeah. Be intentional.

John:: Yeah. ‘Cause you just gotta carve it out ’cause it’s like, well, how do you make time to plan this league and plan the game? Well, you just do it ’cause I love it.

It brings me joy, and I’m passionate about it, and it’s important to me. And I feel like for so many people, we let work become the #1 most important ’cause I need money to pay my mortgage. And it’s like, well, yeah, but also there’s other things that are important too. And so, it doesn’t have to be a zero-sum game of it’s only one thing. It’s like “No, no, I’m actually passionate about a couple things and work’s one of ’em, but so is anime, and so is kickball, and so is going to movies.” “All right. Awesome.” And then it creates more connection points to actually relate to you.

Elandas: Yeah. Like everybody has so many different interests. So like I said, sharing ’em, and being a part of the community, and then being intentional to doing what you love is definitely something that makes people happy in the long run for sure.

John:: No, I love it, man. That’s so perfect. Well, thank you so much, Elandas, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This was super, super fun.

Elandas: Thank you so much.

John:: Yeah. And then you better believe when I’m in Atlanta, I’m coming down and we’re playing something. But everybody, if you wanna see some pictures of Elandas in action or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 523 of What’s Your “And?” And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills. Like who else are you beyond the job title?

And just a quick plug here for globaldogart.com. Michael Puck was a guest on the show last year, and his “and” was dog photography. And he wanted me to let you know that research has shown that pictures of dogs foster social connections amongst people, promote trusting relationships and business settings. They also increase our well-being, reduce stress, all things that make work better. And so, he’s teamed up with other dog photographers all over the world to create globaldogart.com. Check it out. Bring some dog art to work. The really cool thing is is that all the Global Dog Art Gallery contributes 100% of their proceeds to save 1 million dogs by 2030. So check that out, globaldogart.com. And also check out the book. It’s on whatsyourand.com and on Audible as well. So please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Alex Romero. She’s a virtual CFO living in Pueblo, Colorado, and a 2022 AICPA outstanding young CPA Award winner. And now, she’s with me here today. Alex, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Alexandria: Yes, thank you for having me. I’m very excited.

John: No, this is gonna be a blast. We’ve met virtually several times with the Colorado Society things and what have you, but I have some rapid fire questions I never asked you before. So before I decide to accidentally go running with you, I figured it’d be something fun. So here we go. Let’s start you out with Star Wars or Star Trek?

Alexandria: Star Wars. And only because of Baby Yoda. He was the key that I finally was like “Okay, they got me. They got me.”

John: Yeah, definitely, definitely. Baby anything really, that will get you. There you go. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Alexandria: PC for my computer, but everything else in my life is Apple. Apple Watch.

John: Oh, okay.

Alexandria: Yeah. We’re an Apple family except for our actual work computer.

John: The computer. Okay. Interesting. All right. All right. How about more oceans or mountains?

Alexandria: So I feel like this is a funny one ’cause I live right next to the mountains.

John: Right.

Alexandria: But totally the ocean. I love the ocean. I love the beach and yeah. And I have those Rocky Mountains, you know, whatever.

John: Right. Yeah. But it’s because the mountains are always there. I mean, in Denver, I can see them all the time where the beach I can’t, so it’s special.

Alexandria: Yeah. Absolutely.

John: It means I’m on vacation. I had to get on a plane to go somewhere. It’s probably warm, you know. We’re good. So yeah, absolutely on that one. How about— I’m a huge ice cream fan. Ice cream in a cup or in a cone?

Alexandria: Absolutely cup. I’m not a cone fan. It’s gotta be a cup.

John: It’s messy. It gets all over. Yeah. Totally. Totally.

Alexandria: Yeah. Yeah. I’m weird. I don’t like the crunchy with it too.

John: Oh, okay. Interesting.

Alexandria: I know.

John: All right.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: All right. Yeah. We’ll still hang out. It’s all good. It’s all good. How about balance sheet or income statement?

Alexandria: Gosh, that’s a hard one ’cause I feel like they’re married. I mean, you can’t have one without the other.

John: Okay. With a full trial balance. You just want it all.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: All right.

Alexandria: Yeah. So I don’t think I’m gonna choose. I think I like everything. I wanna know the entire picture.

John: Okay. Look at you. All right, there we go. That’s a good CFO right there. That’s what that is. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Alexandria: Gosh, you know, I really like different teas.

John: Oh, okay.

Alexandria: Yeah. So there’s a lot of tea shops. And so, I feel like that’s more of an elegant like adult, you know, when you think about it. Like I go to teas, so that’s my thing. I really like different teas.

John: That’s cool. No, that absolutely. that definitely is. How about heels are flats?

Alexandria: So I do heels all the time except when running. It’s definitely flats, and I have quite the shoe collection for running shoes.

John: There you go. Do you have a brand of choice?

Alexandria: I do. Brooks And they come out with specialty shoes more than they should because I always think I need to have the Thanksgiving shoes, and the Christmas shoes, and the summer shoes. Yeah.

John: They get you.

Alexandria: All the shoes.

John: There you go.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: There you go. That’s awesome. Very good. How about a favorite number?

Alexandria: I’m gonna go with 3 ’cause it’s a magic number. Schoolhouse Rock!

John: Yeah.

Alexandria: Going back to old school.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so good. So good. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Alexandria: So I really like having an actual book, but I actually read ’em and get through ’em when they’re audio, so it’s really hard ’cause there’s nothing better than having a library book. I came from a library, so I do appreciate that. But I actually will finish them in a reasonable time if I’m listening to it.

John: Yeah. And plus, you can do double speed, or one and a half speed, or whatever.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: So yeah, it can move along pretty quickly. How about a favorite animal? It could be any animal at all.

Alexandria: I’m gonna go with my own dog, Matterhorn, ’cause he is just so awesome.

John: Oh. Okay. And he’s got a cool name.

Alexandria: He is.

John: I mean, Matterhorn. That’s like incredible.

Alexandria: Yeah. So he’s a Great Pyrenees. So he’s big, and white, and loves the mountains. So Matterhorn was just the most appropriate name.

John: That’s awesome.

Alexandria: So awesome.

John: I love it. That’s very cool. Very cool. How about when it comes to puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Alexandria: You know, I don’t do many puzzles. But you know, when I was little, I used to really like the normal puzzles.

John: Yeah. Jigsaw puzzles.

Alexandria: Yeah, Jigsaw.

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Alexandria: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John: Yeah. There you go.

Alexandria: Yeah. So I’ll go with that.

John: Okay. All right. All right.

Alexandria: I have memories of those.

John: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. How about a favorite color?

Alexandria: Pink. Absolutely.

John: Pink. Okay.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: That was a slam dunk.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: There you go. There you go.

Alexandria: Easy.

John: How about a least favorite color?

Alexandria: Brown.

John: Oh yeah, that’s definitely a very unpopular answer for sure. How about are you more talk or text?

Alexandria: Definitely text. I feel like I took all the talk out in middle school and high school. I was one of those call waiting, you know, all night. And so, I talked myself out.

John: That’s so funny. That’s so funny. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Alexandria: So I would say Tim Curry and that’s because—

John: Oh, yeah!

Alexandria: …he’s in a lot of my favorite movies. So, Rocky Horror Picture Show, old school Annie from the ’80s, and—

John: Absolutely.

Alexandria: Scary Movie 2. I mean, all these like random movies that I really like.

John: Scary Movie 2. There you go.

Alexandria: I know. I know. It’s an odd one to really like, but he’s the one that’s in all of those, so it’s like he must be the magic.

John: That’s the common denominator there. I love it. We got three more or two more rather. Do you have a least favorite vegetable?

Alexandria: Probably Brussel sprouts.

John: Yeah! Solid.

Alexandria: Super cute. And my dad would try confuse me like—

John: Baby cabbage.

Alexandria: Yeah. But it’s like it doesn’t help unless it’s like fried with like bacon and those are okay.

John: Exactly. You know, all the unhealthy stuff that goes on, it’s too much work.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: It’s like the grits of vegetables. It’s like just takes too much work to make it good. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Alexandria: Gosh, I think the favorite thing I have, this is gonna sound cliché, but it’s probably my husband and my son. They’re just so awesome. I love hanging out with them. And so, I’m very lucky that both my husband and I work remote. And people have asked us how is that. And we’re like it’s awesome ’cause we’re hanging out with our best friend like all day, every day.

John: That’s very cool. Very cool. That’s incredible. And then when you’re not hanging out with the family, you’re running.

Alexandria: Yeah. Away from the family. No.

John: Well, they’re not joining you. That’s for sure. So yeah, so let’s talk about running and just how’d you get into running?

Alexandria: So where it started is I had always looked at running as being something that was too difficult for me that I was never gonna be able to do. I could only run maybe a couple houses and my husband had said that you are only in good shape if you’re running. That that’s like gonna prove that you’re in the best shape. Because if you can run, it means you’re in good shape. And so, I was thinking about that. I was like “Yeah, I think you’re right.” So I did the couch to 5k. I signed up for 5K and that’s where it started. And you know, I didn’t just kind of dabble in it. I was like “Well, now that I’m doing this, let’s go full on.” And so, I did in that first summer. I had 6 weeks that I had a 5K every single weekend.

John: Wow! That’s impressive.

Alexandria: Yes.

John: And I mean, from couch like not running at all. Like not really into doing six 5Ks in 6 weeks. That’s impressive. That really is. And if you add ’em all up, I feel like that’s a marathon. So you should check that off as like—

Alexandria: I should. Yeah. I was brand new to racing and here I was already doing marathons.

John: Yeah. Right? I mean, it’s a monthly thing, but it’s all good. But no, I would take it. But no, that’s really impressive that you were just like “Hey, I’m just gonna do this.” And was it kind of pandemic related or—

Alexandria: No, this was probably 2015 or so. Yeah.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Alexandria: So it’s been a while. I mean, well, the couch to 5K, it’s a really easy program to follow. You just have to do it. I mean, that’s the biggest thing. Just finding the time and actually doing that, but they train you to be able to do a 5K and then it’s like if you get to that point, then it’s like don’t stop.

John: Then it’s momentum and keep it going and yeah.

John: No. Plus, once you find a cool brand that makes awesome shoes, then you have to wear ’em. So now, I have to go run.

Alexandria: It’s true. I had to try out every single pair that I buy on a weekly basis.

John: That’s incredible. That’s so great. And so, do you have some of the runs that have been your more favorite ones?

Alexandria: Yes. And so, I actually have tattoos of the meaningful runs that I have done. And so, the first tattoo I have is of the Disney half marathon. I did the Tinkerbell in Disneyland, and it was incredible. And it was the first time I had ran a half marathon without stopping. It wasn’t superfast, but it was fast enough that I was able to qualify for then the Pike’s Peak Ascent. And so, that was my second race. And then—

John: Wow.

Alexandria: most recently, I did the Las Vegas half marathon and that’s been after I had a back surgery. So it was kind of like a comeback race.

John: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. No. That’s impressive. Wow. I mean, in Pike’s Peak, goodness.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: That’s quite a run. I would get a tattoo for that one I would imagine. Probably getting a tattoo hurt less than doing the run.

Alexandria: Absolutely. Yes. ‘Cause it is. It’s ranked the hardest half marathon in the US.

John: Yeah. And that was your second one. And you were doing 5Ks. You were on a couch.

Alexandria: Right? I know. Go big or go home.

John: I love it. That’s really, really impressive. Kudos to you for real. Like that’s really fantastic. And also something too that you brought up of the time and the whatever, it’s like it doesn’t matter what your time was, you know. You’re not doing it for setting a world record or getting a gold medal in the Olympics. You’re doing it for you. If you’ve changed the phrase to I enjoy running, then it takes a lot of the pressure off of instead of calling your— I’m a runner and it’s like, well you know, I enjoy running it. It sounds a little less pressure on yourself, I think, type of thing.

Alexandria: It does.

John: Yeah. ‘Cause it doesn’t matter what the time was like. Like my time was finished. How’s that sound like?

Alexandria: Absolutely. And that was definitely me at the Pikes Peak Ascent. It took me quite a while, and there were times I didn’t know if I was gonna finish. But just crossing that line and being on the finisher’s list, it’s like that’s fine. it doesn’t matter.

John: Yeah. That’s impressive. Give me a banana and a medal. And now, let’s get the hell out of here.

Alexandria: Yeah. Get me off this mountain and we’ll be good.

John: We won’t be back for a while. We’re good now. Like we’re good.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: Yeah. Have your son look around. All right. We’re done. Like we’re not coming back.

Alexandria: And that’s it. The family was up there waiting for me for far too long. And so, they were ready to get off that mountain too.

John: But kudos for you. That’s really, really cool. And I think it’s fantastic. And so, do you feel like— I mean, of course, at no point in your schooling does anyone say “Hey, go be a long-distance runner ’cause it will make you better at your job.” But do you feel like there’s a skill that you bring from running to work?

Alexandria: Yes, absolutely. So when I actually completed the Pikes Peak Ascent, I was in the middle of my CPA exams.

John: Oh.

Alexandria: Yeah. And so, it was just one of those things that— ’cause Pikes Peak, I can see it out my window. It’s something that I’ve grown up looking at forever and known about this race. And it always seemed like something that was so impossible. So it’s like if I can actually do something that I think is impossible to complete, it was just another motivation to say the CPA test at point feel like it’s gonna be impossible to complete. So it is just that motivation and that knowing that, yeah, I can do hard stuff. I can get direct.

John: Yeah. And your family is waiting at the end for way too long for both of them.

Alexandria: That is probably the truest thing I have ever heard. They’re at the end waiting and it’s taken far too long. They’re tapping their feet. And they’re like “No.” But it’s true. It is so true.

John: How many parts are there? Good Lord.

Alexandria: Exactly.

John: It’s like you need more of these? That’s funny. No, no, no. I’m totally teasing. But is this something that you do talk about at work with coworkers?

Alexandria: It is. And where I had my tattoos, they’re on my foot, and I didn’t really think about it when I got my first one. You can’t see them when I run. They’re not visible.

John: Oh, right. Yeah.

Alexandria: I have on socks and shoes. And so, you really only see it when I have on high heels and I’m in work attire.

John: At work. Yeah.

Alexandria: So people always ask me about them. And so, it’s a great way to just talk about your ’cause it’s very visible.

John: Yeah.

Alexandria: So it’s actually been something that I’m like “Well, I didn’t intend for this to be something that wasn’t seen when I’m running and only when I’m in a work setting, but it’s really worked out.”

John: That’s fantastic though. And it’s cool to hear that it’s not judgment or “Oh, you’re fired ’cause you have an outside of work interest.” It’s the opposite it sounds like where people are asking you about it, which is fantastic, which is what you want in a work setting, is people that care about me enough to ask. You know? Like what is that? If they didn’t care about you, they would just brush it off and just not even talk about it. And it’s neat to hear that it’s a conversation starter of sorts like that. And I guess how much do you feel like it’s on an organization to create an environment where people can share their “ands” or even go even in further and shine a light on them and stress how it’s important that you have one? Or how much is it on the individual to just create that little small circle on their peers?

Alexandria: Yes. So I think it is incredibly valuable if your company stands behind it and is promoting it. The tone at the top is huge. And if it’s supported from the very top, it’s just gonna encourage everybody else to see that it’s acceptable, that it’s valued, it’s something that we wanna focus on. But if you’re in an organization that it isn’t there and it’s not one of the main objectives or something that they want to create this environment, you can. You can do it within your own team and be the one that speaks out and says, you know, let’s talk about this. Let’s do that. Let’s try something new.

And where I was most recently, I mean, there was a general sense of, yes, we want everybody to know each other and know what makes them tick more. But within our finance department, we really dove into that. And we via assessment and looking at what our character strengths were. We knew what each other’s passions were. We were excited when somebody went to a Nuggets game ’cause they loved the Never Nuggets. And so, it has just made our team so much stronger because we knew about each other and we cared about what others were thinking, what their passions were, what their values were, what made them super excited.

John: No, I love to hear that so much. And you know, how much did that compare to maybe other places you’ve worked where, well, I kind of knew about people, but not really? But it sounds like this other place where you really get into it and you roll up your sleeves and care about people. It’s gotta make work better.

Alexandria: It does. And what I really saw is that people that maybe not connect generally were then forming relationships because they had more of an understanding of who that person was.

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Alexandria: And I even found that in myself that somebody that I might not sit down and have a conversation or go to lunch with, once I found out that “Oh, they had a child that went to this school and they did this or they really liked going ice skating”, you know, just different things, it just made even working together, and asking those questions, and building that team so much easier for everybody.

John: Yeah. You know, something that you just brought up that made me think of like— Yeah, I mean you definitely don’t have to have the same “and”, but it’s just— When you’re around people that are more interesting, you want to be around them more. And there’s interesting people around us. We just don’t know because we don’t pop the hood and ask, you know. And what’s under here? Like what makes you tick? What is your “and”? Like what are those passions that are outside of work, you know, sort of thing? And and people also then have to quit lying to themselves and saying “Well, I’m really passionate about whatever my job is.” It’s like, all right, then volunteer and don’t get paid. Because if you’re so passionate about it, then why are you getting paid?

Alexandria: Yeah. Yeah. In finance, we all like accounting. Okay, that’s great. You know, whatever. But you don’t just think and eat, breathe, and live accounting all the time.

John: Yeah. And creating that space for where people can just be honest with themselves and be honest with each other. And interesting people are interesting.

Alexandria: Yes.

John: And you wanna be around them more. And whether it’s your thing or not, I actually wanna be around you more.

Alexandria: Yeah. And I wanna learn. I wanna hear why is it important to you. What do you do? Like that sounds crazy.

John: What is that? Right?

Alexandria: Yeah. Yeah. I have no frame of reference around this. Please educate us.

John: Right?

Alexandria: We don’t have any idea what you’re talking about. This sounds crazy. And you actually think that’s even more exciting when it’s not the same “and” because you learn something and it’s sometimes just so mind blowing what people are passionate about and what they do that you would never even think of that even existing.

John: Yeah. And maybe that’s a new “and” for you or next time you go do it, I’d love to come along. Yeah. Sure.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: Like why not?

Alexandria: I just wanna check this out. This is really cool.

John: I get to do it every week on this podcast. And it’s like “Oh, wow, this is incredible. Like this is so much fun.” And just when you see people come so alive talking about it, it’s almost like the perfect sales pitch. It’s like “Yeah, I wanna do that.” You’re so excited about it.

Alexandria: Yes. Oh, what did I sign up for?

John: Right. All of a sudden, I’m halfway up. I’m halfway up Pikes Peak having an asthma attack or something and a heart attack all at the same time. And it’s like “Oh, boy. Like this is fun.” But that’s such a great point.

Like whether it’s your and or someone else’s “and”, like it doesn’t matter. You don’t have to have the same one. Just care about each other and that’s really incredible. And what a great takeaway for everybody listening of just share. As long as it’s not taboo or super political or whatever, gonna really ostracize people, your outside of work hobby is not that, you know. So start with that and who you are. And behind the job title, there’s a human there. That’s really awesome.

Alexandria: Yeah. Even events you do, things you do with your family. I mean just sharing who you are, who you really are.

John: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And start with yourself. Just get to know yourself, you know.

Alexandria: Yes.

John: And then share with others I guess, you know.

Alexandria: Yes. And that’s sometimes hard. It’s like, well, I don’t know. But then as people start talking, it’s like “Oh, okay, yeah, I can relate to that. I do this.” Or “Yeah, I know—”

John: Yeah. I do have stuff outside of work that—

Alexandria: Growing up, we went camping every summer or whatever it is.

John: Exactly.

Alexandria: Doesn’t have to be big. Just little pieces.

John: Yeah. I love it. And just like your month full of marathon, all those little pieces add up. Right?

Alexandria: Yeah, it does.

John: Look at me bringing it all back.

Alexandria: Right? Full circle

John: There we go. That’s awesome. Well, Alex, this has been so much fun, but I feel like it’s only fair since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning that we turn the tables, make this the first episode of The Alex Romero Podcast. Thanks for having me on and I’m all yours. So whatever you got, fire away.

Alexandria: So both of us being in Colorado, fall is such a huge thing around here I feel like and all these different events. So I wanna know what’s your favorite fall event that’s coming up?

John: Well, I am a huge college football—

Alexandria: I was gonna say except for college football almost.

John: Right? I mean, that’s my favorite season. It’s like not gross hot. The leaves are changing. Hot chocolate becomes more normal. There’s some pumpkin stuff starts popping up. College football is happening. Yeah, absolutely. All of that is just so great. Yeah, I love fall so much ’cause it’s not cold yet, but it’s just that little bit of crisp in the air where it’s like all right, you know, like it’s nice.

Alexandria: And it’s super gorgeous here in the fall time in Colorado.

John: Oh, yeah, in Colorado. It’s amazing. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, it’s so great. And the no humidity is like just brilliant. Like whoever thought of this humidity idea was— I don’t know what they were thinking.

Alexandria: I don’t know. I don’t know. I was in Florida in June and—

John: Wow.

Alexandria: Yeah.

John: Yeah. Good luck with that.

Alexandria: Yeah. We made it back.

John: It was horrible though. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. But yeah, definitely college football would be the quick answer.

Alexandria: Yeah. And then also, salty or sweet?

John: Oh, wow. That’s a tough one. I think I’ll go sweet. You’re talking about my personality, right? Just kidding.

Alexandria: I didn’t put any reference around that question, so there you go.

John: If it was my personality, it would definitely have been salty, but I do prefer sweet for sure. I’m a sucker for that. And obviously, the ice cream is definitely gonna be in there for that, so awesome. Well, thank you so much, Alex, for being a part of this. It was so cool hearing about this, and I look forward to following your running on social media and everything, and cheering you on. So thanks, Alex.

Alexandria: Thank you.

John: Yeah, absolutely. And everybody, if you wanna see some pictures of Alex from her runs or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. everything is there. And while you’re on that page, please click the big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book. And thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread. That who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 521 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work.

And super cool, Michael Puck was a guest on the show. He’s a dog photography. It’s his “and.” And he’s teamed up with other dog photographers to have globaldogart.com. You could check it out. Research has confirmed that pictures of dogs increase our well-being, reduced stress, foster social connections. So maybe that’s for your home, maybe it’s for your home office, maybe it’s for your office. But check out globaldogart.com. All the proceeds, 100% of the proceeds go to save 1 million dogs by 2030. So check that out, globaldogart.com.

And don’t forget to check out my book. What’s Your “And”? You can go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there for the podcast guests as well as links for the book. And don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Bianca Mueller. She’s the community manager for Wagepoint. You’ll see her at CPB Ignite and Wage Fest coming up. And now, she’s with me here today. Bianca, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Bianca: Thanks for having me. I’m super excited.

John: Oh, this is gonna be so much fun despite how you sounded.

Bianca: Are you ready for me? That’s what I wanna know.

John: Unleash. I’ve met you before. We’ve hung out at a conference before. Like I want the real Bianca coming out here. This is gonna be great. And I have some questions that I didn’t ask you when we did hang out and I probably should have.

Bianca: Let’s ask them for the greater public. Shall we?

John: Right. Here we go. I actually crowdsource these, so they’re what everyone wants to know. I’m kidding. They’re just my— The look on your eyes is like “Oh, no!”

Bianca: I love it. I’m transparent. Let’s go. Fire away.

John: Yeah, here we go. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Bianca: Ooh, Star Wars.

John: Okay. All right. Seemed close though. All right. How about your computer? Are you more PC or Mac?

Bianca: 100% PC. My son has problems with his iPhone and I’m lost.

John: Right? Oh, I’m the same. I’m not cool enough for any of that stuff. Oh, this is a fun one. Toilet paper roll over or under?

Bianca: Oh, like that’s my only OCD. It’s definitely has to be over. I switch it at strangers houses and in public bathrooms.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so good. And I will tell you, you are not alone because there are so many people that have been on the podcast that are the same as you. For sure. I had one person even say it’s over. And if you don’t think so, this conversation is over also.

Bianca: Ouch.

John: That was great. How about a favorite animal? Any animal?

Bianca: Oh, Tiger. I have actually have a little story. My family, we did this big road trip down to San Diego. I live on the West Coast in Vancouver. And the only thing I purchased on that whole trip when I was about 14 was this huge poster from the San Diego Zoo of a big like snow tiger.

John: Oh, yeah!

Bianca: And my parents had to cart this in the car and not dent it.

John: Not dent it. Yeah, oh, totally.

Bianca: Yeah. That was hanging on my wall until I was at like 25. I took that with me to my first apartment and everything.

John: That’s so good. So good. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Bianca: Ooh, Sudoku and jigsaw for sure.

John: Oh, okay. All right. So, a little bit of both.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: A jigsaw puzzles of tigers.

Bianca: Ooh, that would be fun. I should put that on my Amazon gift list or whatever.

John: Right? There we go. How about a favorite color?

Bianca: Ooh, pink.

John: Pink. Nice. There you go. How about a least favorite color?

Bianca: Brown.

John: Brown. Yeah. The least of the least popular. Yeah. That’s brown. Yeah. How about more talk or text?

Bianca: Oh, it depends on the time of day and who it is actually. I’m a talker for sure. Anyone knows me knows I don’t shut up, but I will text all day long if I feel like you don’t have time to talk to me. I’ll just text you and yeah.

John: Right. ‘Cause then I’m able to still talk to you even though you’re busy like with something else. Like I’m still getting at you. So there you go. All right. All right. How about a favorite cereal as adult, as a kid, whatever? Favorite cereal.

Bianca: Granola.

John: Granola! Okay.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: All right.

Bianca: I love granola.

John: There you go. That works. I anticipated something wild and crazy. And you come at me with granola. I’m like “Ah, good to know.” I learned something new here. And since you have the bookkeeping background, balance sheet or income statement?

Bianca: Ooh, balance sheet all day long. All day long. Because, you know, it’s interesting you say that because if you’re a sole proprietor, like your income statement’s the only thing you really think about.

But like in the backend, your bookkeepers got the balance sheet going. So it’s like this hidden like, I don’t know, star that needs to— It needs to add up. It’s what makes everything add up.

John: Yeah. It’s hard to hide stuff there. Yeah, that’s for sure. Very good. How about— Ooh, in Canada, this might be a fun one. Summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Bianca: I’m spring. I do really like the crisp air coming in the fall. Like fall is beautiful here. Like September. I love September in British Columbia. But I appreciate the warmer temperatures.

John: Right? We’re getting out of it. Like coming out of winter. It’s like, yeah, not going into it.

Bianca: Spring. And also, my birthday is in the spring, so it’s another reason to celebrate.

John: Done. Hello? I just moved mine from fall to spring just because of that. There we go. How about a favorite number?

Bianca: 4?

John: 4? Okay. Is there a reason or just—

Bianca: No. Because everyone else picks 3. I don’t think—

John: One better than you.

Bianca: I feel like I can’t do odd numbers very well. I don’t know. There might be something there. Little neuro divergence.

John: Okay. Even number. 4 specifically. I like it. That works. That’s a fun number. How about when it comes to books? Audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Bianca: Ooh, e-Book. I’m a digital girl. I’m a digital first mindset.

John: Okay. You’re taking it all the way through. All the way through. I like it. How about a favorite actor or a favorite actress?

Bianca: Oh, I really like Charlize Theron.

John: Oh yeah!

Bianca: Yeah.

John: Yeah. She’s in a lot of good stuff too. Yeah. Really good actress.

Bianca: She just has such a range of characters she can play. It’s pretty amazing.

John: Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. Two more. Heels or flats?

Bianca: Well, this might be a good segue into what I wanted to talk about because I used to love heels, but I can’t wear them anymore because I have bad knees.

John: Oh, okay. Which we’ll get to in the contact sports part of Bianca’s life. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Bianca: Oh, probably my cat or even my air fryer. I’m like slow down.

John: Oh, man.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: Air fryer. Solid. What kind of air fryer do you have?

Bianca: A really big one. Like the biggest one I could buy.

John: Okay. There you go. I actually pulled out my stove and put it in air— No, I’m just kidding.

Bianca: You know, my biggest thing though that I appreciate the most every day is the fact that I have 6 king size pillows on my bed.

John: 6?

Bianca: I was like “Oh, my God, I don’t know how people sleep flat.” Flat is like not my thing.

John: That is impressive. Yeah.

Bianca: It’s like clouds.

John: That is very impressive.

Bianca: It’s like clouds.

John: Yeah. I’ll take all of those answers as favorite things. And they’re all different. Your cat, air fryer, king size pillows. Amen. All of those things. I’m a big fan. So let’s talk the contact sports and I guess maybe if they’re not looking at you peopling and just being up on everybody. If you’re not looking, you’re gonna get whacked.

Bianca: Yeah. Bianca, the boxing bookkeeper, that was what people used to call me.

John: That’s so great. Like how cool is that? I mean, how many bookkeepers have that much of an identity to where people— and the alliteration of it all? The BBB, I love it.

Bianca: Yeah. My nickname is Bee. Busy Bee to Be.

John: Right. So you’re just all over. I’m glad I didn’t ask you favorite letter ’cause it was clear it’s B, but like how did you get into, you know, I guess boxing maybe to begin with, but then contact sports all around?

Bianca: Well, it actually started with martial arts when I was much younger. I think my mom and dad were just like “This girl has too much energy for us. She needs to go somewhere else for a few hours a day.”

John: Yes.

Bianca: That was one of those. Let’s just put it that way. So I did. I went into martial arts. And I did martial arts on and off my whole life, but really got into it seriously when I was an early teen. I can’t even remember. Maybe 13. And I got really well. And I actually got up to my brown belt. Through the years, I’d done various styles. Shotokan, Aikido, Muay Thai, Pankration. I also wrestled provincially through high school. I was one of the only girls on the wrestling team. And because of the grappling martial arts experience, I had excelled really well and sort of dominated grade 12 when I was competing. And it was so fun. And yeah.

So then, in my after high school teenage years, 18-19, I got into doing Muay Thai, and I loved it. It was like the most invigorating sport ever. Not only was I my most fittest. Like it’s very, very physically demanding, but like you push yourself mentally and physically to your limit every day. And that’s kind of how I roll. I need to be like—

John: All in.

Bianca: I sleep well at night.

John: Like totally metal.

Bianca: I don’t have a problem sleeping.

John: Right? We just run red all the time. Just like max it out. AND is that sort of like MMA?

Bianca: Yeah. So that’s like the precursor to MMA. It was like the Muay Thai, Pankration, all that stuff and yeah.

And then, you know, I was a powerhouse kicker. Like that was my thing. I was like “Look what I can do.” And I’d kick everything and I’d kick over all my friends’ heads at barbecues and bars. That was me. It was terrible. Bad idea.

John: Yeah. ‘Cause you can jump and kick. And they’re “What?!”

Bianca: It was a bad idea though because I ended up with a really bad knees. And you know, my doctor’s like “Oh, it’s arthritis. It’s arthritis. Just push through it. You’ll be fine.” But I couldn’t. It got so painful that I ended up in my 20s having to be like “No, I can’t do this anymore.” So that was kind of lame. But that’s sort of also when like life just got real for me. I was like I don’t have time for all this fun stuff. I need to get career driven. I need to get all these things, and then marriage, and then kids, and all of those— Life caught up.

John: Yeah.

Bianca: And then when I was 40, I’m like I really missed that. I missed that.

John: Interesting.

Bianca: So how can I do martial arts without kicking? ‘Cause I thought kicking my knees. I was like boxing. Boxing is totally the segue to me getting back in shape and back into my competitive spirit and nature. But yeah, it actually backfired. So then, I’m boxing. I won a couple fights. And I’m in Vegas in a fight in Vegas at the Hard Rock Hotel.

John: How great is that?

Bianca: It was like super amateur, not professional.

John: But still.

Bianca: But still.

John: Who cares?

Bianca: Full contact.

John: Like that’s great.

Bianca: I’ll send you a picture. But I blew my ACL like 30 seconds into the fight, so that sucked, but it was still an amazing experience. And I ended up having a few years of reconstructive knee surgeries, a couple of them, and had a little bit of trouble healing. But I’m now all healed and my next journey is to sort of get back into martial arts. Not competitively fighting anymore, but just actively for my mental and physical.

John: Yeah. But that’s so interesting. Or even just watching it. I mean I’m sure watching boxing, watching that. Like you can’t do it anymore maybe, but you can watch it or you can do a scaled down version of like what you’re talking about.

Bianca: I just love the intensity of hitting things. That sounds bad. This can easily be taken out of context.

John: No, no, not at all. Not at all. I mean, that’s why I go to the driving range. It’s just like “Wham!” I mean, I just grab my driver. I don’t use it. It’s just like “You know what? It’s been a day, and I just need a bucket, and I’m just gonna hit these things as hard as I can.”

Bianca: Yeah.

John: ‘Cause if I don’t hit the golf balls, it’s gonna be someone else. It’s gonna be like a person.

Bianca: It’s super invigorating. Yeah. I love it.

John: Yeah, totally. But I think it’s really interesting how life gets in the way and then that’s the first thing that we put on the backburner, is our “and.” But then later in life, you’re like “You know what? No, no, no, I need this.”

Bianca: Is that what’s called a midlife crisis?

John: No, not at all. It’s actually like being human because the human part of us is the first thing we put on in the backburner and then your soul starts to speak up with “Hey, remember us? Like we’re human.”

Bianca: We’re gonna do things for you.

John: Yeah. Amen. And so, was there a difference when you were transitioning back into? Like did it play out into work some?

Bianca: Yeah. I mean, I was nicknamed The Jugular for a reason.

John: Okay. Okay.

Bianca: I’m just like it’s straight to the point.

John: Here we go.

Bianca: Like super focused. Eye on the end of the prize. And I put in all the work and I work full speed ahead at everything I do all the time. And it’s like I literally attribute that exact skill from my martial arts to work. Like it’s still how I function. And it’s like there’s always a result. There’s a process. And I push myself like every day to my limit. I don’t know how good that is, but that’s how I function.

John: But that’s in your DNA. That’s who you are. And you’re exercising that muscle outside of work. So then, when you need to use it at work, then you’re like “Well I got this, that’s no problem.” You know, somebody like me doesn’t have that, so yeah.

Bianca: The amount of focus that it takes to stay on task, especially like in a fight or in a martial arts scenario, and even the meditation components that come with martial arts really, really, really helps in my professional life as well for sure.

John: That’s awesome. And no one at any point in your education, or training, or anything tells you, you know, go do martial arts ’cause it will make you a better professional.

Bianca: No.

John: But it clearly does.

Bianca: Yeah. Absolutely.

John: It clearly does.

Bianca: And it allows me to conquer so many fears because, like you say, it’s a contact sport. It’s one on one. If I don’t step up to my best face every day or my best ability, then guess what’s gonna happen? Bianca’s gonna get a black eye.

John: Yeah, it’s your jugular that time. No, somebody’s gonna get a black eye like “Oh, man.” That’s brutal.

Bianca: It doesn’t mean that I’m so much harder on myself though when like things don’t go as planned. And I’m working on that. That’s the shadow work that I’m doing in my 40s for sure.

John: There you go. Okay. Okay. Fair enough. But it is something that you talk about. I mean, people knew you as Bianca, the boxing bookkeeper. I mean, now that you’re with Wagepoint as a community manager, like it’s slightly different roles or job, technical skills, obviously totally different, but the “and” is still there with you. So it is something that you do share—

Bianca: Yeah.

John: …at work.

Bianca: It is. Absolutely. People love hearing the stories. And I think the “and” is the energy. I bring the same level of energy to everything that I do. And the intention behind what I’m doing and what I’m accomplishing, I bring that to everything that I do. And the people that are around me, whether it’s family, friends, or community, or industry, they all feel, and see, and understand that about me because it comes across very authentically or at least that is me. So I don’t try to suppress that part of me at all. And anyone you talk to in the industry is gonna be like “Yup, that’s Bianca.”

John: Well, good, because I mean, #1, they remember you. So you don’t just fall into the mix of everyone else. But two, if they didn’t know your “and”, then you would just be like super aggressive lady, but it’s like “Oh, no, no. She’s a boxer. She’s like kickboxing. No, no, that’s just who she is. That’s what she does.” Like if I didn’t know that part of you, I would have been like “Woah, she’s like super intense.” Then you find that side out of her.

Bianca: People often ask and they’re like “Do you have a whole bunch of brothers?” And I’m like “Actually, I do have two brothers, but I’m probably the most masculine one of them.” I didn’t have to stick up for myself. Like they literally had to protect themselves.

John: Right? That’s the thing. And if they say otherwise, I will give them the black eye. Here it is.

Bianca: You know, the apple didn’t fall far from the tree.

John: Yeah. I love how like there wasn’t a part of you that was like “Oh, people are gonna judge me for this.” Like it’s take it or leave it type of thing. A lot of times, we have these lies that we tell ourselves ’cause our brain is way not our friend.

Bianca: Yeah. Judgment is a very real thing, and I probably should care a little bit more. But but you know, my theory is if someone can find energy or their own voice in anything that I’m saying or doing ’cause everything like I say or do is full speed ahead, if I can affect one person’s life, then that’s all that matters because it really does help. You know, my person was my mom. And a lot of people in the bookkeeping and accounting industry know Diane Mueller. She’s a spear-header just like me. And she paved a really big trail for the accounting community and bookkeeping community in Canada. And I didn’t fall far from that tree like I said. Yeah.

John: No, that’s fantastic. I mean, it’s really great. And so, how much do you feel like it matters for an organization? You know, obviously, when you’re maybe a bookkeeper or you have a smaller company, of course you know each other on accident. But when you’re part of Wagepoint or other organizations, how much is it on the organization to create that space for you to have an “and” and share it versus how much is it on the individual to just kind of create that little circle in their peers?

Bianca: You know, it’s interesting you say that because as an extroverted bookkeeper, I’ve had software companies sort of interested in my energy for a while. And when the opportunity with Wagepoint came up, it was a no brainer because of the culture that Shrad has built within the company.

John: Nice.

Bianca: They promote everybody’s side hustles. There’s channels in there for everybody’s “ands.” It’s absolutely amazing. I wish there was more boxers, okay, ’cause Wagepoint is 100% cloud-based and always has been. So everybody works remotely. And the culture that Shrad’s built within Wagepoint and the different ways that we can all communicate and share our “ands” with each other and find our community of like-minded people within where we work is so amazing.

John: That’s so cool to hear like that they’ve cared about the human side from the beginning.

Bianca: It’s always been about the human side, and emotional intelligence plays a huge factor in that and how Shrad actually hires. So it’s pretty cool.

John: Oh, really? That’s interesting. Yeah. ‘Cause, I mean, you can’t teach that side of things as well as the technical skills are pretty easy to teach. That’s awesome. That’s so encouraging to hear, you know, that there are organizations out there that are like that ’cause it’s gotta feel good to be a part of a company that cares about the other dimensions to who Bianca is. Not just the work Bianca.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: You know, everything.

Bianca: And all the time, the conversations boil down to us as individuals, not what we bring to the table all the time. All the conversations with Shred. We just got back from a big work retreat. One of our customers, our wagepoint customers, has a summer camp, The Hollows in Ontario. So we booked it out and like 70 or 80 staff all went there. And we slept in the little bunk beds like we’re camp kids.

John: That’s so cool.

Bianca: We did adult summer camp, and it was so amazing. Like no shop talk. It was like there was a DJ and a mentalist, an illusionist.

We had entertainment. It was so much fun. And it was getting to know everybody’s aunt and it was encouraged. It was amazing.

John: That’s so great and such a simple thing and just brings people together. And especially, when you’re fully remote like that, you have to be super, super intentional with caring about people, but then getting in person matters even if it’s once a year or twice a year, or even if it’s in small groups. There’s so many like “I didn’t know you were this height, you know. Like on Zoom, it’s like all I see is this head.”

Bianca: We actually sat down. We’re like ” Who were our biggest surprises?” We’re like “I didn’t think that person was gonna be that tall” or like “I didn’t think that person was gonna be that cool.” Like we have this awesome guy in finance and everyone thought he was gonna be a bit stiff, but he was like the funnest person there.

John: Right? Right? Which is great. It’s like bring the summer camp you to work every day.

Bianca: Yes

John: Like this is great.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: So fantastic. I love it so much. Do you have any words of encouragement to people that feel like “Hey, I like to do martial arts or box” or whatever their and is, “but it has nothing to do with my job, so no one really cares, no one’s gonna care”? Like do you have words of encouragement to anyone listening?

Bianca: Well, yeah. And I think we actually just touched base on this and it’s like just do you. Stop fearing judgment. The judgment that people like fear how they’re gonna be received or if they’re gonna be misunderstood or misinterpreted is often the bottleneck that like stops people from authentically showing up as themself. And I show up authentically every day, even if it’s a bad day or a good day. Like you’re gonna know. And I think that that is hopefully spilled out a little bit into like even the people that I deal with every day.

And I know that my management, my team, we all show up authentically every day. And everyone that hires sort of feels that vibe, and it’s like the next person that comes on board sort of starts to slowly adapt to that same way. And it’s literally breeding this internal culture of amazingness, and you just need that one person to like understand and see you for who you are and make you feel welcome. And then it’s like sky’s the limit.

John: Yeah. It’s one of those things that’s so simple, but not easy, I guess, for most people for some reason. But yeah, it’s just care. Like have a genuine interest, you know. And, well, we don’t have a charge code for getting to know each other or whatever. We don’t get paid to socialize.

Bianca: Well, employers need to provide more safe spaces for that. In a real life work environment, office environment, people often go to the water cooler and just like, you know, they hang out there for a few extra minutes and see who stops by to have a little chit chat. So it looks like they’re still working, but you know, but they need a break, a mental break. Well, we have a slack channel called the water cooler. I mean, that’s a perfect example, and anybody can put anything there any time. Well, obviously, within like HR.

John: Right. HR doesn’t get flagged.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: We have a separate one for Bianca. Bianca has her own channel.

Bianca: Might be on the roadmap. We have a gardening channel, a wellness channel. You know, so many amazing things. A plant-based food and nutrition channel. And anyone can go in them at any time. There’s zero judgments on if one day you spend a little bit too much time in that channel chatting to people and the next thing—

John: Yeah.

Bianca: There’s no like micromanaging of time and I think that’s like super, super important as well.

John: Yeah, no, totally. It just takes the reins off of you that you can feel like, well, no, I can just be me.

Bianca: If you’re you, you’re gonna show up more creatively too.

John: Yeah. Amen. That’s so much better. So much more engaged. So much more everything. Well, this has been so much fun, Bianca. But before I get a black eye from saying something, I feel like it’s only fair that I turn the tables, make this the first episode of the Bianca Mueller Podcast.

Bianca: All right.

John: So thanks for having me on.

Bianca: All right. So you’re a speaker, you’re out there, you’re always like so engaging with public, but are you introverted or extroverted ’cause I can’t figure it out?

John: Oh, yeah. No, that’s a good question ’cause you are definitely the extrovert and I am very introverted. Very introverted. I think that’s surprising to probably everyone listening, but yeah, when I go somewhere, I’ll speak, I’ll talk to people after, but then, yeah, I don’t ever turn the TV on in my hotel room. I don’t even know if it has a TV half the time because I just need quiet. Just quiet to recharge and just all the stuff in my brain needs to be de-fragmented, I guess, like in the computer speak.

Bianca: Yeah, yeah.

John: Yeah. And just recharge that way.

Bianca: So you show up with your full energy whereas I leave talks filled with even more. It is the opposite. I think that’s how they define introverted and extroverted.

John: Right. And I leave drained because I’m giving so much of myself to each individual person in the room and I’m the opposite.

I’m giving so much that I’m just like just exhausted and drained at the end. Or even you’ll see me at any gathering, I’ll be in the corner with maybe one or two other people and then I will only talk to those two people the entire time. Like I will not talk to anyone new and especially if it’s a conference where I haven’t spoken yet, so then you don’t know what I do and then it becomes now I gotta tell you what I do and it’s let’s just talk about you and whatever your job is.

Bianca: I like it. This is all making sense now. What’s Your “And”? You wanna know about other people. You’re deflecting. I get it.

John: Yeah. What’s your “and?” Like let’s talk about that.

Bianca: No, I want to know about you. So I see. The audience can’t see, but I can see there’s some football memorabilia behind you on your shelf. What’s that about?

John: Notre Dame football helmet. Yeah, I graduated from Notre Dame and huge college football fan. That’s definitely one of my “ands”.

Bianca: Cool.

John: And then a football signed by Coach Holtz who wrote the foreword for my book, the Hall of Fame college football coach here in the US for Notre Dame. And yeah, so excited about that. But actually, the helmet is signed by the last coach. And so, it’s just mementos of things that bring me joy, and I think that’s important to have things that bring you joy around you so then you see them.

Bianca: Kinda like my pillows.

John: Yeah. Like king size pillows. You know what? Next time we talk, I might have 6 king size pillows stacked on my bookshelves back here. And you’ll be like “What? No, wait, what kind of pillows are those? What brand? What’s the stuffing made of?”

Bianca: The things that bring us comfort.

John: Exactly. Yeah. But I mean, at the very least, it makes me smile. Sit down. I’ve got a story for you.

Bianca: Do you put it on at parties?

John: I’ve put it on during Zoom calls, that’s for sure, before. Somebody’s like “Why don’t you just put on the—” “Okay, I’ll go put it on. I don’t care.”

Bianca: That’s awesome.

John: It’s fun.

Bianca: Very cool. Some fun facts about you.

John: Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you so much, Bianca, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? and just being awesome. So thank you for taking time to be a part of this.

Bianca: Thank you very much.

John: And everybody, if you wanna see some pictures of Bianca in action or connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. And like I said earlier, don’t forget, she’ll be at CPB Ignite as well as Wage Fest coming up very soon. And while you’re on that whatsyourand.com page, be sure and click the button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture and don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 517 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. It was so kind of The Independent Press Awards to name it a Distinguished Favorite. And the book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon, and more importantly changing the cultures where they work because of it. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Paul Jan Zdunek. He’s the COO of Miller Kaplan in Los Angeles and the author of Cowboys & Conductors: Conversations on Horseman-Humanship. And he’s with me here today. Paul, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Paul: Hey, John, great to be here. Thanks for having me.

John: Oh, man, this is gonna be so awesome. I’m super excited, but I have 17 rapid fire questions. Get to know Paul out of the gate here.

Paul: Hopefully, I won’t fail.

John: Right. This is gonna be the shortest episode ever. Like here we go. This is an easy one. Favorite color.

Paul: My favorite color is dark red and dark gold together. Kinda like the Italian red and golds. My whole house is fill with that.

John: Okay. All right. All right. That’s a little too close to USC for me, but we’ll keep going. How about a least favorite color?

Paul: Least favorite color is green.

John: Oh, okay. All right.

Paul: Especially like lime green, you know, like the pukey kind. Pukey green.

John: Right. Yeah, no, it’s a little too bright. How about you prefer more talk or text?

Paul: Talk for sure. Talk.

John: Yeah, just get it done. There we go. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Paul: You know, I love Robin Williams and Tom Hanks ’cause they have such a wide range of skills. They’re funny. They’re serious. And actually, one week, I started binging Tom Hanks movies ’cause they were so awesome.

John: I mean, that could go forever. I mean, that’s like they’re season so many. It’s unbelievable. Yeah. But you’re right. They’re both so good. So good. How about a favorite animal? Any animal at all?

Paul: Favorite animal. That’s a new one. Oh, geez. You know, the dog is always the favorite. They’re always so sweet. They need you, you know, easy.

John: Yeah. No, dogs are awesome. Absolutely. How about a favorite movie of all time?

Paul: You know, my favorite movie— Well, two of them actually. One is Birdcage, which is hilarious. Again, Robin Williams. Right? Totally awesome. The other one is Parental Guidance with Bette Midler and— Oh, I forget the— It will come to me. But also movie about, you know, sort of the new generation, and how parents are giving gold stars to everybody, and how Bette Midler kind of deals with that as a grandparent. So, awesome movie. I keep watching that over and over again. Hilarious.

John: That sounds awesome. Very cool. Very cool. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Paul: Star Wars for sure ’cause of the John Williams score. It’s just so fantastic. Both of them though, there’s been so many remakes. I can’t keep up. I like the first versions of all of that, but they’ve kind of gone off the deep end with the different remakes and so forth.

John: You’re right. I mean, John Williams definitely puts it over the top. I mean, yeah, he’s amazing. How about puzzles? Sodoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzle?

Paul: They all make me crazy. So, none.

John: None of the above. Perfect.

Paul: My wife does puzzles and I live through her.

John: Right. There you go. There you go. All right. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Paul: Definitely Mac just because, you know, used to spend so much time fixing or having bugs in the PC that it’s so nice to just like not worry about it. The firewall is done.

John: That’s hilarious. The propaganda that Apple has put out is still going strong. It’s awesome.

Paul: Exactly. Exactly.

John: It’s so awesome.

Paul: And it’s beautiful, and it’s beautiful.

John: They’re nice looking machines. That’s for sure. This is a good one. Toilet paper roll over or under?

Paul: You know, this is actually a serious issue with me. Over. Over. Under is impossible. It’s impossible. And you know what? Actually, my wife likes under and I like over, so we keep switching each other’s toilet papers.

John: Are you switching around?

Paul: That’s true. It’s a major issue for me. This is a major issue.

John: Amen, man. I’m with you on that one. For sure.

How about ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Paul: Cone for sure. Sugar cone, waffle cone. Waffle cone.

John: Ah, yeah, there you go.

Paul: If you go for it, you might as well go for it.

John: Yeah, you might as well go big.

Paul: Chocolate covered. Chocolate-covered waffle cones.

John: There we go. That seems to be one of the more popular. I’m a big fan of in the cup, but also with the cone. So then, yeah, you don’t lose any dripping around like yeah. Everybody wins on that one. This was a fun one somebody threw at me and I like bringing it back. Socks or shoes?

Paul: Oh, flip-flops and short socks. What are those? Like little ankle socks.

John: Oh, the little ankle socks with flip-flops. Okay.

Paul: No, no, no, no, no. One or the other.

John: Oh, one or the other. Okay. All right. Right. But flip-flops is probably the answer.

Paul: Yeah. The short socks are nice. Yeah. You know?

John: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But yeah. Okay. All right. Oh, this is a fun one. What’s a typical breakfast?

Paul: You know, I don’t eat breakfast because it makes me tired. I get sleepy. So if I eat breakfast, I’m usually taking a nap at 10 a.m., so it’s not good.

John: Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. There we go.

Paul: Coffee.

John: Coffee. Just straight coffee. All right.

Paul: That’s my preference. Yeah.

John: Okay. That works. How about a favorite number?

Paul: 7 because that’s my birthdate and it’s been lucky. I know it’s a favorite of a lot of people, but it’s always done me well.

John: It’s a good number. That’s for sure. We got three more. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Paul: Real. I like to feel it. I also like reading the real paper even though I have it on my phone. I like to be able to smell the ink on your hands.

John: Totally. I mean, it’s just, I guess, tradition. I don’t know. I’m just used to it more. I’m the same. Yeah, for sure. Two more. How about a favorite food?

Paul: Indian. I love Indian food.

John: Oh, okay.

Paul: Yeah. If I had to choose one forever and ever, it would be Indian for sure.

John: There you go. With some ice cream at the end.

Paul: Yeah, exactly.

John: Right. and then the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own. Like the house catches on fire, you go and grab or is there something cool or—

Paul: You know, it’s funny you ask it that way because I don’t have anything that I’m so tied to that I can’t do without, you know. Relationships, your mind, your mental, you know— my memory, I guess, is one favorite thing I own for now anyway.

John: Yeah. Right. Right. What’s left of it, right? No, no, that’s great. That’s an awesome answer. Absolutely. Your memory and your mind of course going along with that, so yeah. So let’s talk people watching, observing, what have you. Is this something that you got into recently or something you’ve been doing since you were younger?

Paul: Yeah. Ever since I was a kid— I grew up in Baltimore, so the inner city, and we had the famous white marble steps. We were on row homes where you can stretch your hands across and reach both walls and like you’re stacked next to each other. And it used to be the time where people actually sat on their steps or they called them in Baltimore stoops. They sat on their stoops. And I just go up and down the street when everyone was hanging out because we didn’t have air conditioning, we didn’t have the internet, we didn’t have Netflix. You know, like you actually went and talked to people, you know, sat outside and visited.

John: Was it uphill both ways on your street too?

Paul: I actually did live on a hill, so yeah. Yeah. Just like talk to people and figure out what made them tick. And that actually stuck with me the rest of my life. I mean, I love people watching. I’m to a point where I’m obsessed about it. Even going to a restaurant, my wife or whoever I’m with will be like “Hello! I’m over here.” And it’s like “Yeah, but do we know what’s going on behind us?”

John: Right? There’s like a whole sitcom happening.

Paul: Exactly. It’s fascinating.

John: That’s so cool. And I bet a lot of those people you still remember them because you do know what made them tick. You actually knew them as opposed to just “Hi, Ms. Johnson” or whatever.

Paul: Yeah. It’s people watching, but also understanding people. Right? So it is that deeper thing. And I think that had my life been a little different, I might have gone into sociology or psychology. But you know, I guess to your point also with your book and the and, it’s like maybe I don’t wanna do that as a career. Maybe I just like to do it on my own as a hobby so that it’s more fun and I don’t have to make money at it. I can just enjoy it.

John: Right. ‘Cause that is the thing. Trust me. I mean, when you make the leap to it’s your profession, it’s less enjoyable. I mean, you still enjoy it, but there’s some pressure now because you gotta pay the mortgage and all that stuff. And that’s awesome though. I mean, from when you were a kid and then growing up. I mean, now you’re in LA, which is— I mean that’s people watching heaven right there.

Paul: People watching Mecca.

John: Right. Right.

Paul: And yeah, I mean, ever since I was a kid, like you said, but then I also studied conducting and I was a conductor for about 10 years. And that people watching it, it’s not just people watching, but it’s really locking into who needs you, what their body language is, what they’re saying. You know? So really having that nuance of sound, of tone, of stature, of whatever and really locking into what people need at any given moment. I had to do that as a profession, you know, as sort of as part of the profession. And then as a consultant, a business consultant, do the same thing. You gotta come in and figure out what’s what, like who’s telling the lies, who’s telling the truth, who’s kind of making in between. And I still use it today as COO just to manage the team and manage individuals rather than say “Well, everyone’s the same. So, you know, this is how I’m gonna do it.”

And it’s, again, something that I did as a kid that I never thought about, but I use every day. And actually, you made me dig deeper and really realize how obsessed I am and how much I actually do it. I probably should see somebody about it, but—

John: Just see yourself. Right? No, I mean, I appreciate that, but yeah. But also then you not only understood how obsessed you are with it, but also how much you use it in your career as well because that’s the thing with the and. You know, it’s just something we do ’cause we enjoy it and then what takes someone to point out like or ask “Well, how does this play into your corporate career?” And it’s like “I didn’t think it— Oh, wait, it does actually. That’s pretty neat.” It’s just a cool little thing to step back and just realize that you’re not doing it because it enhances your career. It’s just a cool byproduct. And yeah, I could imagine. I mean, I was in the band all the way through college. And yeah, I mean, the conductor could see everything I was doing. Completely goofing around. I was a trombone player. So, of course, I was goofing around. It came with the instrument. I had to, but they could always tell. And it’s like “Ah, no matter how high I lifted my music stand, it’s like damn it.”

Paul: They knew you were reading magazines back there and not paying attention.

John: Right. They knew something like ” John, what are you doing? And I’m like “Ah, man! Like come on.” That’s so cool. And so, I guess do you have any like cooler, rewarding stories from, I guess, maybe growing up or some of the characters that you’ve met along your career or along your life from observing?

Paul: What I’ve taken away is that every person has got a story. Right? And that’s what makes it so fantastic. I think sometimes we think, well, you know, only really important people, or only celebrities, or only this or that are important or interesting. And this is actually kind of what drives me crazy about pop culture, right, because we all fixate on those one or two celebrities or the one who’s in the news now like Johnny Depp. It’s like there’s so many more interesting people in the world. And we often sort of dismiss like the person who checks you in at the hotel or whoever, but everyone’s got a story and everyone’s got sort of dysfunctional something or other that’s interesting. Right?

John: Yeah. I mean, good or bad, either way, it’s interesting.

Paul: Yeah. And so, I think if you have that kind of sense, then you’re not always looking for something. You’re luxuriating in the people that you’re meeting all the time.

John: Yeah. They’re all around us. And I mean, especially at work. I mean, you know, just asking simply what’s your and or what lights you up when you’re not at work. I mean, it’s amazing when I work with companies and speak at events. All of a sudden, it’s like I had no idea that all of this was around me and I’ve worked here for eight years. And you’re like “Well, get on it then.”

Paul: Yeah. And even, you know, at work as well as in interviews before they even come to your job. I mean, it’s funny. I was actually in a day of interviews today interviewing for some positions and he asked the regular questions. And at the end, I asked him a few fun questions like, you know, “Okay. So, outside of work, like what do you do for fun? Like what is your driver?” And all of a sudden, they’re almost like surprised. Like they relaxed. They’re surprised that I’m asking them about something personal that they actually enjoy, and it changes the dynamic right away. And then I also ask if they like hamburgers and how they build their favorite hamburger, you know.

John: Right. ‘Cause I’m 100% judging you for that.

Paul: Exactly. You’re gonna get this job based on what you put on that hamburger. But you know, it’s to see if they’re curious, creative, but yeah, the sort of the fun thing. Unfortunately, we don’t talk about that. Like we don’t talk about what we do in our personal life. I guess part of that is all the HR lawyers telling us we can’t ask this, we can’t ask that. Like we’ve gotten to such a point like we don’t wanna say anything ’cause we don’t wanna be taken to court over something we ask, which is unfortunate.

John: Yeah. But I love that during the interview ’cause cause then it’s, you know, I’m gonna be around this person more waking hours than my family. So I’d like to know who you are. And also, if you’re all work all the time, that’s a pretty big red flag because you’re gonna burn out and you’re not a real human. You’re not being honest with yourself. You’re not being honest with me. And yeah, I just don’t think this is gonna work, you know, type of thing.

Paul: Or if their favorite thing is throwing rocks at squirrels, that’s probably a red flag too.

John: Or there’s that. Yeah. There’s also that, or something illegal or taboo, or Skippy, but I love that you ask that, you know, because it matters. I mean, people have expertise that they get from their and that “Oh, that’s good to know. I’ll remember that.” You know, things like that. And that’s cool ’cause you’re hiring the whole person, not just the work part.

Paul: Yeah. I mean, you spend most of your life at work and so with the people that you’re working with. It’s almost like a best friend or a family. Well, maybe not family ’cause not every family wants to hang around each other all the time. But yeah, it is about the whole human being. And you know, people are what make businesses successful, not businesses, not the widgets that they sell, but it’s the people who are involved and their commitment to each other, their excitement of working together.

And yeah, I mean, I think culture is everything and it does come from within like who are you and then who are you in comparison to others who are working with you.

John: Collective. Yeah. No, I love that so much. So much. And I mean, that’s partially with Cowboys & Conductors.

Paul: Exactly.

John: I mean, you know, humanship, which I love that phrase. And if you wanna describe it to everybody listening.

Paul: Yeah. Well, the book is about how my colleague, co-author, Dustin, who’s a true American cowboy horse whisperer— how he works with horses because horses don’t say “Hey, I need some food”, or “Hey, I need this”, or “Hey, I need that.” You have to understand. You have to feel the nuance. You have to feel the body language. And you also have to be centered and present as well so that you can have that sort of unspoken dialogue going on. And that’s horsemanship, you know, to be able to do things with a horse without beating them, whipping them. And humanship is the same thing. You know, being present with each other, really trying to meet people where they are, understand the nuances of what makes them tick.

Not only like you said from professional, but the personal, the drivers, and locking into that and then understanding how you can let them sort of move about and move freely, but also empower them and really truly lock into their energy. But to do that, you have to be centered, and you have to have your own grounded energy and your own grounded framework. And that’s what the book is about. I mean, it’s really more about how do we live, and work, and operate in this world of gray. And so, you know, you can’t just kind of flail around and you can’t just sort of say “Well, this is the path. I’m going that way. To hell with everything else.”

John: Yeah. Not everything is black and white. Most things are gray like you said.

Paul: Exactly. Most things are gray, but you have to have some kind of framework, some kind of foundation. And then that’s what we have talked about in the book, which is gray leadership. You know, this gray leadership and there are ways that you can set a foundation just like you would a house. Right? You can build awesome 2 or 3 stories on top of this foundation, but the foundation is weak or the foundation crumbles, then it doesn’t matter how awesomely built the other floors are. And it’s the same thing with this gray leadership. Like if you can set a foundation and set a framework, then you can pile on anything on top of it, anything good or bad, and react in the moment, you know. And so, it’s that really just kind of being in the moment with people or with horses in Dustin’s case and locking into that natural energy.

John: Yeah. And just having a genuine interest in the people. You know, just care. I mean, it’s so simple, but not easy, I think, for people. I mean, in the same way that Dustin cares about the horses, like we should care about our people, and that’s amazing how much that’s hard or doesn’t happen.

Paul: We also tend to hang around and collect people as friends or colleagues who are like us. Like we just do that naturally as human beings. And so, you know, our point is why don’t you make a beeline for somebody at a party who is completely opposite of you, whatever that means, like a different profession, a different race, a different ethnicity, a different whatever, and go and talk to them. Right? And that’s what people keep saying is like “How did you guys meet? Like what is conductors and cowboys— I mean, what’s the connection?” It’s like “Right. There’s seemingly no connection, yet there is this completely deep connection because we decided to explore each other’s background and lives.”

John: Yeah. And if you’re having a hard time finding somebody, just ask Paul ’cause he’s already observed everyone at the party, and he will point you in the right direction.

Paul: ‘Cause that could be a part-time gig. Right?

John: That could be. Absolutely.

Paul: Cruise director for people.

John: It takes me to like the Love Boat type of scene, but that’s awesome, man. Like I love that philosophy and how it’s all in the same vein, in the same direction of What’s Your “And”? and it’s bringing human to work and operating in that kind of squishy gray area, like you said. So I love that you’re able to help people with that.

Paul: It is figuring out or at least asking about their and, right? We often go to a party or a meeting. It’s like “What do you do?” And what do you do is one thing. I mean, what do you do is so small in scope, but what are you, who are you, what is your and, what drives you, sort of that is so much more important. And you know, I’ve talked to a lot of CEOs of companies, especially like family companies where they’ve sort of ascended to the throne because of their father, or grandfather, or whatever grandmother. And they’re just like “Well, I’ve gotta take over this company ’cause that’s what we do. That’s who our family is.” And I asked them, you know, “What do you love to do? Like what drives you? Is it manufacturing? Do you like just love manufacturing?” He’s “Not really.” And that usually is tied to the failure of their company because they’re not excited about it.

So they’re not really putting the passion and time into it. And there’s a direct correlation to your point between the end and the bottom line. And we don’t think about it that way. We think this and thing is squishy and the gray leadership is— like that’s bluff. Talk to me about the numbers. You gotta talk about the squishy stuff. The squishy stuff will give you the hard stuff about the numbers. There’s the direct correlation that a lot of folks don’t understand or don’t want to believe.

John: I love that so much. And there’s a company that I was reading about recently. It’s called Perrin. It’s a company that’s like helping people see the skills that they get from different jobs even when they’re flipping burgers at McDonald’s, what that translates to in the future. But they refer to these as essential skills. They’re not soft skills. They’re essential skills because the hard skills, in about 10 years, the computer’s gonna do all of those. So the others actually become essential. And I love that. You know, just those essential skills that we all need to have. And yeah, it’s just awesome to hear that parallel ’cause everyone’s either ridden a horse, or seen a horse, or seen a horse movie, or something. The Kentucky Derby, I mean, they’re massive animals and they’re so just majestic. But to be able to tame them and to bring them in, it’s a really cool skillset to have, and humans aren’t much different as wild horses really.

Paul: Kind of what you said is how we have to reframe it. So it’s not about taming this wild beast. This beast is an awesome, fantastic beast just like humans are. Right? And so, when you beat a horse, when you kick it with your spurs, it eventually resigns and sort of stops, and do people. The more you micromanage people, the more you yell at them, there’s a point where they give up. And as opposed to giving them more responsibility, investing more into them, then they sort of on their own blossom, and so do horses. And so, it’s really so many times— and we think about this with relationships too. Like we think if we could just squeeze them and hold them tighter, then they’ll love us more, you know.

John: Right.

Paul: It just doesn’t work.

John: No, their heads pop off.

Paul: Right. Exactly. It doesn’t work that way.

John: Right.

Paul: So why do we keep trying to do that? Like let ’em go. Let ’em blossom. They’ll come back. It’s that saying like if you love something, set it free. If it comes back, you know, it was yours. If it doesn’t, it never was. And that’s a wise saying. And it’s the same kind of philosophy that you gotta let people move around. You know, horses, I found out that when they are fearful of something, they need to move their feet. Like they need to run away from it and then they’ll get to a safe distance and look back, okay, like what was that thing that scared me and then they’ll slowly come back and assess what’s going on. But if you try to hold them from running away, then they’ll kick, and bite, and could actually kill you right in the moment. Same thing with people.

John: Right.

Paul: You gotta let ’em run away. You gotta let ’em go off the deep end for a few days, few moments, and they’ll come back around because that’s how we operate. We need to sometimes just run away from the thing that scares us, but it doesn’t mean that you’re running away forever.

John: No, I love that and yeah. And just harness the talents and the skills and find the right channel to just go ’cause it’s amazing, if you’re able to do that, what can happen.

Paul: Yeah. It’s a trust thing. Right? And then that goes back to being centered yourself ’cause the people who micromanage feel like there’s some sort of insecurity that they have within themselves that they need to then micromanage others so that there’s a control and it just doesn’t work. It’s never worked. You know, I’m dealing with that all this week. It’s like managers who they feel like control is— And as long as I can see you working, then you’re doing a good job. But like if you’re working remotely or if I can’t see what you’re doing, then you obviously must not be working.

John: Even though the finished product is there, but, well, your Keebler elves might have done it. I don’t know. It’s like “Okay, like whatever.” That’s hilarious, man. Such good nuggets, man. Really, really great advice for people listening. Just rewind the last like 10 minutes, and re-listen, and put that into work at your work. Put that into action. So that’s awesome, man. Well, I feel like before wrapping this up, it’s only fair since I peppered you with questions at the beginning that maybe we turned the tables, make this the first episode of The Paul Jan Zdunek podcast. So I’m all yours, man.

Paul: Well, you started in accounting, right? And a lot of people— even I get this still today, it’s like accounting, they’re boring. They just keep their heads down. They’re just bean counters. But you know, obviously, you are not. And how did you make that leap from bean counting to standup comedy?

John: Yeah. Well, you know, it was just always— I was just me in all of the places even when I was at work.

You know, I still had a personality, still had a sense of humor. And when I would ask people in all the careers or even clients that I was visiting through PWC and what have you, it was like “What do you do”, and they’re like “Well, I take this spreadsheet.” “No, I know what that is. Like who are you? Like who else are you?” And it was just so cool to see all the people around us. And so, I was just doing comedy at night for fun. It was just a creative, fun hobby and just an outlet. And then I accidentally got good. And you know, the profession and I decided I should take my talents elsewhere. So then, I went comedy full time. But yeah, I mean, I don’t recommend people do it full time as your hobby ’cause you’re probably not that good at it because that’s why it’s a hobby.

Paul: Yeah. As we talked about earlier, I mean, did that hobby then start seeming like a burden because it was a career?

John: Very much. And so, you have to have an and, another and. You know, it was college football, ice cream, going to concerts. You know, all that’s been always a part of me, but comedy is one that I guess stood out more. But yeah, you have to have those outlets and those things where you’re able to turn your brain off, you’re able to do something, that pure joy. Like I try to tell people like when you talk about work, sometimes it’s fun, but sometimes it’s not. But when I’m talking about going to a concert, it’s always fun. Like it’s always fun. And you can tell when people are talking about their and. Like they light up, their eyes get bigger and yeah.

And certainly, I mean, I did plenty of comedy gigs like a bar at a bowling alley for 100 bucks ’cause, yeah, I need 100 bucks on a Wednesday or a bar where like a football game’s on on like Monday night football and they’re like “Hey, can you turn the comedy down ’cause we’re trying to listen to football?” I mean, just all kinds of stuff like where people are playing pool and they won’t stop playing pool. And it’s like, well, that’s kind of annoying when you’re telling jokes. I mean, all kinds of crazy. But I mean, of course, also really cool big shows and comedy clubs, but you have to work your way up.

Paul: So when people actually were listening to you, was there a moment that just like totally flopped like you’re like I gotta get outta here, that totally landed wrong?

John: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. All the time. Because if you’re not doing that, then you’re not pushing yourself. You know, if you’re playing safe and just doing only the stuff that works, well, then you’re not gonna grow, you know, and you’ll never get new material. And so, yeah. I mean, there’s certainly been plenty of times where I’ve just bombed and I’m just like—

Paul: How do you get out of it?

John: I mean, sometimes it’s fun to be like “Well, I thought that was hilarious. Nobody else— Okay.” You know? And then typically, once you get stronger, your miss is not as far off. Like you’re at least hitting the dart board now, but then you always have a really good joke right after it. So then, even if I lost him for 30 seconds or a minute, I’m gonna get you right back with this half marathon bit. So here we go.

Paul: You’ve gotta have an escape path, I guess, escape—

John: Yeah. Yeah. Or you just call it out and be like “Hey, you know, that was a new one. And apparently, I need to work on it.” Or it’s the other way around. And it’s like first show Friday laughed for about an hour on that joke. That’s on you guys. Like I don’t know what to tell you. You want me to tell it again? I’ll tell it again. Here we go. You know, like I’m just having fun with it type of thing. But yeah, I mean, certainly. Even when I lived in New York, I’ve seen Chris Rock and Gaffigan and, you know, people come in and Seinfeld. And you’re like “Oh man, everything…” No, they’re trying out new stuff. And you know, their miss is still pretty close to the bullseye, but it’s still like “What the hell is that?” You know? “Like I should write for you.” No. But you’re growing and that’s how you get more stuff.

Paul: Yeah. Awesome. Well, that’s a big deal to put yourself out there like that, you know. It’s not easy to do that because, you know, just like being a musician, people are judging you on you’re inside and not what you do. Right? It’s who you are as a person, what your emotions and your intellect. And it’s much more personal when things don’t go well and also much more personal when things go well. It’s euphoria, right?

John: Yeah. No, it really is ’cause you’re the product.

Paul: Yeah, exactly.

John: That’s what’s hard about it. Yeah, it’s not just “Oh, this pen is terrible.” It’s like No, you are terrible.” And it’s like “Wait, what? Like as a person? Ugh.”

Paul: That’s why people say as a musician, actor, comedian, whenever you’re doing something like that, if you don’t absolutely love it and if it’s not something you have to do, then don’t because the criticism personally will tear you down in a second.

John: Yeah. I mean, you dealt with that with your music side. And I mean, every single day, someone punches you in the face, every day, whether it’s an audience member, or it’s a booker, or it’s a comedy club manager, or it’s somebody telling you that you are not good enough. And so, you just have to have that inner fortitude, or that confidence, or enough good shows that you can go back and listen and be like “No, no, no, I am good enough. That’s just on you.”

This was hilarious. There was a comedy club that I was trying to get into. This was back in the day where you could burn your own DVD. So I burned my own DVD and I sent it along with here’s a list of all the comedy clubs I’ve done. And the guy watches, and he calls me, and he says “Hey, that accountant character you’re trying to do is very annoying.” And I’m like “That’s not a character, man. That’s just me.”

Paul: You’re very annoying.

John: Right? Exactly. And I was like “I’m not Larry, the cable guy, who’s not a cable guy at all.” He’s like an IT guy from Nebraska, but like that’s a character. This was me. Like I’m being me. And he’s telling me that that’s annoying. And it’s like “Well, I guess I’m not going to Cleveland.” It’s like “All right.” Yeah, man, it’s hard. It’s hard for sure. Well, this has been so great, Paul. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? Really, really awesome.

Paul: My pleasure. Hope to do it again.

John: Absolutely. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Paul outside of work, or maybe connect with him on social media, or get a copy of the book, Cowboys & Conductors: Conversations on Horseman-Humanship, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check Paul’s book like I said.

So thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use, and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 517 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And normally right now, I plug the award-winning book What’s Your “And”?, but I wanna take a moment to talk about globaldogart.com where all the proceeds go towards saving 1 million dogs by 2030. And did you know that research has shown that pictures of dogs increase our well-being, reduce stress, foster social connections, promote trusting relationships in business settings? And Michael Puck, who was a guest on the show, his and was dog photography. And his pictures are amazing. But now, he’s teamed up with other dog photographers all over the world for globaldogart.com. Check it out. Support someone’s “and” and help out a really great cause. And please don’t forget to subscribe with the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every weekend.

And this week is no different with my guest, Carolyn Ellis. She’s a trainer, coach, and author of the award-winning book, lead conversations that count how busy managers run great meetings. She’s out of Toronto, Canada. And now, she’s with me here today. Carolyn, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Carolyn: I am so looking forward to our conversation, John. Thanks for having me.

John: Me too. This is gonna be so much fun. And we’re friends outside of this, which is great. And I have 17 rapid fire questions that I probably should have asked you years ago when we first met, but now’s the time, so here we go. We’ll start— Maybe this is an easy one. I don’t know. Law and Order or Suits?

Carolyn: Oh, man. You know, I never got into either of them.

John: Oh, okay. All right. Fair enough. Suits was filmed in Toronto, so that’s why I thought it’d be a slam dunk.

Carolyn: I know. Well, you know, I’m a little over Meghan Markle a bit these days, so maybe that’s another issue.

John: Right. This was pre-royal Megan.

Carolyn: Exactly.

John: Yeah. It’s tainted now. Fair enough. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Carolyn: Absolutely Mac. Used to be a PC girl.

John: Wow. Okay.

Carolyn: Used to be and then it was just constantly updating right when I was in the middle of like major things. And I got an IT guy and switched over to Mac and, ugh, love it, love it, love it.

John: Wow. Good for you. Okay. How about more of a shower or bath?

Carolyn: Well, shower.

John: Yeah, just efficiency. Bam. There it is.

Carolyn: Also live in a house right now where I don’t have a bath, so that’s another factor.

John: Oh, that makes it easier.

Carolyn: But I do live across from Lake Ontario, so I could have a bath technically if I wanted to.

John: Oh, that’s amazing. Okay.

Carolyn: And I do sometimes. Yeah. Just wander on over there before dinner, have a quick bath in the lake.

John: Right. No, Lake Ontario is awesome.

Carolyn: Oh, it’s beautiful.

John: Yeah. So beautiful. I’m a huge ice cream junkie. So when you get ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Carolyn: Oh, it’s a tough one. I think there’s a lot of pressure when you’ve got it in a cone like that you don’t lose it or crack it. And I really like to get every single drop. So I’ve migrated to being a cup girl. I could just lick that spoon and just stick my whole snout in the cup.

John: Right. There it is. There it is. Totally. I agree 100%. How about a favorite animal? Like any animal.

Carolyn: Ooh, you know, dogs. I love dogs. I mean, we’re sharing about your friend Michael and what his dogs like— Scribble down that URL. I’m gonna go check it out. I’ve got a Golden Doodle and I’ve had dogs for years and years growing up. So they are amazing creatures.

John: Yeah. No they really, really are. I totally agree. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or a jigsaw puzzle?

Carolyn: I’m a big fan of jigsaw puzzles and I do them actually on my iPad.

John: Oh.

Carolyn: Yeah. There’s an app I use called Magic Puzzles, and it’s super fun because you don’t know what the picture is, and you can dial up. Do you want the pieces to move? Like you can rotate them. Do you wanna do like the 48-size version or do you wanna go for like the 500 little pieces? So you can dial up or down your level of difficulty, and it’s super fun.

John: You don’t even know the picture. That’s wild. Okay.

Carolyn: You don’t even know the picture. And then if you get really stuck, there’s a little magic button where you can say “How about you just like float 10 pieces into this corner here ’cause I’m just like really frustrated right now?” So I love that too.

John: I’m gonna throw my iPad if you don’t give me 10.

Carolyn: Yeah. As opposed to like just clearing the table of a real physical jigsaw puzzle.

John: Oh, that’s interesting. Very cool. How about a favorite color?

Carolyn: I love a lot of colors I’d say.

John: That’s fine. I’ll give you more than one.

Carolyn: I love vibrant colors. My favorite, I think right now I’m in the mood for are like teal. So think about like a Robin’s egg kind of color. And you know, again, this lake, man, sometimes it’s like a deep, deep blue or like a greeny blue, and I’m really vibing in that sort of blue green, teal-y zone.

John: Yeah. I love it. How about a least favorite color?

Carolyn: Oh, least favorite color I would say is the color of an old dog turd that’s on a sidewalk after a rainy day when somebody stepped in it with a newspaper. Like that kind of gray brown, mushy— Yeah, that color.

John: That is by far the least popular color. It’s amazing how much just brown or any version of brown comes out.

Carolyn: Brown. Like what was that? Yeah.

John: Not good.

Carolyn: Just walk around it.

John: That’s hilarious. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Carolyn: Favorite adult beverage. Oh, man. I just recently bought myself a cocktail book when I was visiting New York, and I’m not much of a mixologist, but I did recently get into Singapore slings, which is something that my parents, growing up at the cottage, all the adults used to get really snuckered with Singapore slings. I’m like “What was that drink?”

John: Yeah. I’ve never even heard of that.

Carolyn: Yeah. There’s a lot of ingredients, but very tasty. It goes down too smoothie.

John: There you go. That explains it. And there you go. Now, you’re the one getting snuckered and it’s all good.

Carolyn: Exactly. Just trying to honor my parents. Yes.

John: This one’s for you. No, totally. How about are you more talk or text?

Carolyn: I do both. I prefer talking ’cause I like the connection better. And also, sometimes texting is just— That damn autocorrect, you know, just gets me so many times. It’s like “No! Stupid.” So yeah, it kind of trips me up a bit.

John: That’s funny. How about— This one’s gonna be a hard one. Do you have a favorite actor or an actress?

Carolyn: I would say I really— like Emma Thompson lately, man.

John: Oh, yeah. Okay.

Carolyn: She’s so fantastic. And she’s been around for such a long time. She’s super funny. I, you know, have seen some of the old stuff that she used to do with like Hugh Laurie. Like she’s just so wildly talented. And then her latest movie, I dunno if you’ve seen it yet, it was Good Luck to You, Leo Grande, about this older woman’s—

John: I haven’t seen it yet. No.

Carolyn: Oh, such a great performance. I mean, it’s a great film. It’s a great story, but she just really went for it. And she can play serious. She can play crazy and manic.

John: Yeah. The Cruella de Vil movie proved it.

Carolyn: Oh, her Cruella was— How she was in that movie was just amazing.

John: She’s on Fallon doing the rap battles and stuff. Like she’s so good.

Carolyn: She just goes all in.

John: Yeah.

Carolyn: Yeah.

John: Really good.

Carolyn: She’s like no holds barred. I really admire that in her.

John: Yeah, totally. No, great answer. Totally. Are you more heels or flats?

Carolyn: Well, my osteoarthritis in my left foot has determined that heels are out of my shelf. Like I cannot do that anymore. So flats are fine. I’m a tall girl. So I’m 5 feet 10. So I’ve spent a lot of time trying to unlearn the slouching I developed as a teenager to try to fit in with everybody else. So yeah, I’m more on the flats side.

John: Nice. Okay. Okay. Fair enough. How about season, summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Carolyn: I love them all, you know, and I love the transition. I love it when you wake up on a summer day and you’re like “Ooh, I’m smelling fall.” It’s just got that Christmas in the air. I live in a part of the country where we have colors changing and the trees go. And I love me a good winter crisp walk with the dog on the beach. Awesome.

John: All right. All of them. Just in case they’re listening, none of them are left out and they’re all—

Carolyn: No. I did mention spring, which is when I was born ’cause that’s usually a bit of a mixed bag. It’s like that’s when a lot of that brown stuff shows up on the sidewalk or leftover after the winter snow.

John: Also, it’s like so short in Canada ’cause it’s like winter—

Carolyn: And then all of a sudden, like “Oh, you’re in summer now.” And the flowers are going like “Hey, what? Already?”

John: Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Carolyn: Bye.

John: Right. Yeah. No, I can totally see that. How about you have a favorite number?

Carolyn: My favorite number is 4.

John: Okay. Is there a reason?

Carolyn: And I don’t know why. I grew up my sister, and I, and my parents. So there was like always a four. And there’s just something kind of interesting about 4 for me.

John: Yeah. No. That makes sense. Totally. How about least favorite vegetable?

Carolyn: Least favorite vegetable. Ooh, I’ve been doing so good on getting my veggies.

John: I’ve done like 47.

Carolyn: You do, ei?

John: No. Probably three I can think of right now off the top of my head.

Carolyn: Gosh. You know, I would have to say I was gonna put Brussel sprouts in there, but I’ve learned to really love Brussel sprouts roasted with a little balsamic on it.

John: Yeah. You gotta do some work, but they’ll get there.

Carolyn: You know what? I’d have to say like really, really bitter greens.

John: Ah, yeah. Okay.

Carolyn: I need me some soft sauce up in there with the arugula just to break up that bitterness a little bit. So I don’t hate it, but it’s like that—

John: Yeah. No. I agree. Totally. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Carolyn: Oh, I love me a real book ’cause I’m very kinesthetic like I like to have a pen in my hand, but I get too many of them. So I’m trying to be a little more minimalist and then I’ve been going a little bit more e-Book, but I find I don’t remember them as well. You know, that’s the problem. And thankfully, Amazon will remind me. It’s like “You’ve already purchased this book in 2019. ” It’s like “Really? Dang! I should go read it then.”

So still working that out.

John: Yeah. ‘Cause they’re stored up in the cloud and you haven’t downloaded it to the device yet, so you forget that you have it.

Carolyn: Yeah. It’s not like you can flip through the pages and see how many treasures I have yet to read.

John: What does it look like? Yeah, exactly.

Carolyn: Exactly.

John: And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Carolyn: The favorite thing I have, it’s not like a possession, but it’s a patio in the place that I live right now. It’s a deck and I look across the street and then there’s like a green boulevard. There’s the boardwalk, there’s the beach, and there’s the Lake. So I can literally see, you know, Oh my gosh, there are white cups.” I’ll be on my couch in my living room’s like just checking out. It’s so great. You know, I just love having that kind of like nature’s— like living right in it. Even though I live in a really big city, it feels like I’m up in cottage country and I’m like in a huge urban city.

John: Right. That’s fantastic. So let’s talk musical theater.

Carolyn: Yeah.

John: How did you get started with that? Was it something that you like grew up doing or was it more later in life?

Carolyn: It was something that I grew up always wanting to do, but I was always really intrigued in high school with like plays and things. I was like “Oh, that would be so much fun”, but I would always chicken out. So I would do stage makeup for the theater or I’d play my flute in the pit band.

John: Oh, okay.

Carolyn: I’d get close, but I always kind of hover around the periphery.

John: Right.

Carolyn: And then like when I was in like my 40s, my kids were getting older and stuff, my chiropractor was like “Oh, you should come to see this musical I’m in.” I’m like “Wait, what? Like an old dude, like you can be in a musical? Like tell me more.” And so, he introduced me to his musical director who, a couple years later, she started and it was basically formed by a bunch of adults who were sitting in the hallway of some gym watching their kids have a great time with her doing their musical theater stuff. And they’re like “Why can’t we do this?” So that’s what we are. We’re just a bunch of middle-aged and older people who some have had some experience, most of us have had very little except for singing in the van, and yeah. So I’ve been with this group for about 6-7 years, 6-7 productions. One of the joys is my daughter is also in the cast and she’s like one of the most talented people in the whole— Like she just raises the level of leadership up in all of us.

John: Okay.

Carolyn: Yeah, it was something that I always like wanted to do, but just kept saying “Nah, you’re not good enough. Nah, you don’t know how to dance. No, you don’t know how to sing.” So just saying no and then just finally saying “Well, what if I tried it?” And it was like “Oh, my God, I love this.”

John: Yeah. That’s so fantastic. So it’s like one show a year kind of idea?

Carolyn: One show a year. We do one show a year. So usually, of course, the pandemic has messed all of this up. So we’re just waiting to see when we can get back on track. But usually, we start rehearsals sort of end of September-October, performance 3 days. And it’s all for charity as well. So we raised money to support art space programming for kids in remote communities in Northern Canada and also in Africa. And so, we perform end of January. 3 nights usually sold out. So it feels good. And it’s always a process like, you know, “Am I gonna learn my lines? Like I don’t know how to do the choreography.” And any time you’re in a group with like 25 to 30 people doing something and it sort of feels a little pressurized, especially now with the pandemic, you know, we look back and like we’re so lucky to do this. I mean, we just get to be like goofball kids and just discover things about what you can do and like the kind of joy that you can have in your life. And it’s okay. Like you deserve to have some fun too.

John: Yeah, no, I love that. That’s so fantastic. Do you have a show that you’ve done that’s been one of your favorites or a role that you had?

Carolyn: Well, I think one of my most challenging and most favorite roles was in my most recent production. We were doing a bit of a mashup between like Robin Hood and Monty Python’s search for the Holy Grail. It was a bit of a mash up there. So I played a character of Rapunzel ’cause, of course, we had to have nursery rhyme characters in there as well. I was Rapunzel and I was also Rumpelstiltskin. So I had to puppeteer like an Avenue Q kind of puppet. So he was my husband. And so, you know, different voice. And I think the highlight for me was singing Do You Love Me as a duet from Fiddler on the Roof.

John: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. That will mess with your brain a little bit.

Carolyn: Yeah. It’s like chewing gum, patting your stomach, walking and, you know—

John: ‘Cause you have to do the puppet and both voices.

Carolyn: Yeah. And then your reaction to the puppet and then the puppet singing. And your face is supposed to be reacting differently. So it was a lot of fun. It was so great.

John: That sounds like a blast. And what a cool mashup. I mean, it reminds me of like Albert Brooks had like the Robin Hood movie back in the ’90s. You know, that was a hilarious movie and then to throw in also all these hilarious stuff is right up my alley. That sounds like so much fun.

Carolyn: It was very zany, very zany.

John: Yeah. And then it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t have to be perfect.

Carolyn: It doesn’t have to be perfect. And I think, you know, one of the things I really didn’t quite appreciate and totally love about community musical theater is the people in the audience. They’re not subscribers. They’re like your friends or your family, your colleagues, your neighbors, and they are so rooting for your success. And so, there’s like this amazing reciprocity of like you just wanna leave it all on the stage floor as we would say. And they’re just right there. And I was surprised actually. I have friends coming back year after year. They’re like “Oh, my God, like just going to these performances are like the most exciting.” I’m like “Really?” Like I just didn’t realize.

I think being in the theaters helped me kind of come out of like getting outta my own way in a way. It’s like “What are people gonna think?” People are going to be inspired. And this is what I think is so cool about what you do with your podcast, John, is when you are in your passion zone and you’re doing your and, like whatever it is, like for me, it’s the theater, like it just ignites something in people’s hearts around you to say like “Hey, you know, what could I do with that kind of energy? Like what would that look like for me?” So it’s a wonderful experience to have and to sort of pass that forward.

John: No, I agree totally. Just the energy and even just in the universe, I guess, you know, type of a thing of giving people permission to go do the thing that does light up their soul and does make you happy and brings you joy.

Carolyn: Just do it.

John: Like go do it. Yeah.

Carolyn: Like what are we waiting for?

John: Right?

Carolyn: Let’s go.

John: Yeah, exactly. No, such great advice. And do you feel like any of this translates to your work at all?

Carolyn: Actually, I’d never thought about it before. You ask me that question now, John. Oh, my gosh. Around the time I started doing the musical theater, I also made a pretty big pivot in my business. And one of the things I started to do was called graphic recording, which is drawing conversation in real time. And if I didn’t have that experience out there— ’cause what that is, like I have been at conferences where there’s like 1,500-2500 people, all kinds of luminaries on the stage. One day, I graphically recorded Michelle Obama and Joe Biden on the same day at two different events.

John: Oh, my goodness. Yeah.

Carolyn: The old Carolyn pre-theater experience would have been like “Oh no, like what are people gonna think of me? Am I doing this right?” And now, I’m just like I can be there in that space and it’s like “All right, let’s dance in this moment, and I’m gonna just go with it” and getting out of my own way of like “Did I do this right?” It’s just like that little inner chatter has just kind of fade into the background. When it comes up, I’ll just be like “Hey, how are you doing? You sit on the bench now. I got some work to do here. I gotta show up for these people.”

John: Yeah. Because it’s like I’ve exercised this muscle outside of work so then, when it’s at work, I can do this, you know, and I can make it happen.

Carolyn: And I think there’s something too about that experience of working with people and it’s not gonna be perfect right out of the gate. The second week of rehearsal, you’re just like “Oh, how are we ever gonna do this?” And it’s the same thing when you’re like at the jobs, right? Things are not gonna be perfect at the beginning, but to trust your team, and to work with each other, and to find like there’s alchemy that happens when you have goodwill, and good heart, and good intention and you work with each other. So I think that’s another thing that I really learned from my experiences with my troop.

John: Yeah.

Carolyn: Like you just don’t know. And if you think you know, you’re not thinking big enough.

John: Yeah. No. And it’s so true. And it’s not why you do musical theater, but it’s a cool byproduct of doing musical theater. It’s like no one during any of your education did anyone say go do musical theater ’cause it will make you better at your career.

Carolyn: No! And if you’ve mentioned it, they would have said “Well, that’s not very practical. That’s not gonna be a good way to earn a living.” And you would have just tamped it down. If you’re having joy in one part of your life, it spills over. And I think people feel that whether you’re in the theater, in a boardroom, at a conference. They’re like “I’ll have what she’s having.”

John: That’s so true. I mean, if you have joy in your life, like what lights up your soul? Like that’s deep.

Carolyn: Yeah.

John: Like someone that I had had on, Mark Winburn, another guest, he said it’s his breathing and happy. And I’m like “Wow. Like how rich is that?” It spills over, you know. If you’re living your best life, you’re gonna be doing your best work and that’s so good that you pointed that out. It’s so true. And I guess has this been typical for you to share your outside of work hobbies through your career or is it more that the musical theater was like “Hey, this is a cool thing that I’m doing”?

Carolyn: You know, I think when I started my career, I was very kind of buttoned down. I thought I had a personal life and there was a professional. And like I had an interest in things about consciousness and spirituality. I would never ever, ever talk about that at work ’cause like “Oh, no, that’s not rational.” And so, I kind of kept those realms separate. And I think whether it’s, as I’ve just progressed in my career, I don’t care as much what other people think about me, you know, than I did when I was in my 20s or 30s, or just having these experiences where you see like if you’re willing to really be out there, be authentic, be vulnerable, I know those are all clichés now, but really let people see you as a goofball and it doesn’t matter, it just opens up the space for them to be like “Oh, man, we need a little bit more lightheartedness here. Like let’s do some improvising, collaborating, like just riffing off of each other.”

That’s what brings more meeting and joy to the moment than like “Oh, wait, that’s not on our agenda for this meeting is to have this conversation.” It’s like “Well, I’m sorry. That protocol is dumb.” You know?

John: Right. Also, my agenda shows that it’s clearly here.

Carolyn: Yeah. Notice what’s going on in the room with a reaction here and can you respond to what’s actually here rather than to what our mental constructs have been? ‘Cause I really think with this pandemic, a lot of us are— You know, the wells of emotional resilience are pretty dry and we’re trying to find our way back. And these kinds of opportunities and moments, even just those little moments, it could just be a conversation in an elevator. Oh, remember the days we used to go to office buildings with elevators and people would be in them?

John: Right. It scares me when someone else comes out. I’m like “Whoa! Hey, I didn’t know you were gonna be here.”

Carolyn: Like “Whoa, what?” “It’s okay. We’re at 6 feet?” “Yeah.”

John: Like “Yeah. Yeah.”

Carolyn: That’s right. So I think, you know, people finding some solace in culture, and music, and those sort of shared experiences I think are really powerful. I’ve missed them and I’m enjoying getting back to them now.

John: Totally. No, it’s super important. Humans wanna be around other humans, you know. It’s just straight up we want to. And that’s how it goes, you know. And how much do you feel like it’s on leadership in whatever capacity to create this space for people to be able to share an and or how much is it on the individual to be like “Hey, like I’m just starting with my small circle up here and we’re gonna go from there”?

Carolyn: Ooh, I think it has to come probably from both. I mean, I think leaders need to create a space for that. And if they’re not creating some sort of space for their own to start showing up in how they lead, I think they’re missing the boat because people in the trenches on the team, those individual contributors, especially, again, pandemic has had a big impact on people saying like “What am I doing with my life? Is this what I wanna be doing? Like I got other things or places to go, people to be, and feelings to have rather than feeling like you’re a cog in the wheel.” I mean, I think that’s just really old style. I think there’s a shift in that, but it needs to be supported at the top and modeled at the top. Again, if it becomes a checkbox, we need to have time for people to share about their passions. You go first.

John: And I have a stopwatch, so you can’t go longer.

Carolyn: Yeah. You’ve taken too much time.

John: Right.

Carolyn: On to the next. Thank you for sharing. That was very moving.

John: Right.

Carolyn: You gotta mean it. Like your words and your energy have to be aligned.

John: That’s so true. That’s so true. I agree totally on that. And so, do you have any words of encouragement for anyone listening that feels like they have an and, but no one cares ’cause it has nothing to do with my job?

Carolyn: If you feel a niggling to explore some and, just find what is that one next baby step that you could do to explore, bringing a little bit more of that into your life. It’s not a big commitment. Like you’re not going to Broadway. I’m not going to Broadway, but just like what’s that next little tiny step and just give yourself permission to do that. I find sometimes those nigglings, if you ignore them, like they’re not inconsequential. I really feel it’s like your wisest, and best, and most expressed self is saying “Hey, let’s check out this fork in the road.” And if you don’t say yes, at some point, you’re gonna get like a smack upside the head somehow, which will say like “Oh, man, I should have learned how to take more time away from my work and to indulge in my passions ’cause now something calamitous has happened.” So just take a little baby step and have some fun with it. Be light with it. And if it’s not for you, you know.

John: Absolutely so true. So true, Carolyn. That’s so perfect. And I feel like before we wrap this up ’cause this has been so good, it’s only fair that I turn the tables and make this The Carolyn Ellis Podcast. Thanks for having me as a guest. And I’m all yours, whatever you wanna ask.

Carolyn: Well, thank you. John, it’s been a pleasure. I’m so glad you could be here with me today.

John: Right? I booked myself. I’m not gonna lie.

Carolyn: Yes. Yes.

John: Like I did.

Carolyn: I have two rapid fire questions for you. What is your biggest pet peeve that when you experience it, you say “Come on, seriously?”

John: Oh, wow. I have so many pet peeves.

Carolyn: Feel free to share more than one.

John: I mean, at an airport with your shoes off or on the airplane with your shoes off, or at the airport or anywhere on speaker phone. What are you doing? I don’t need to hear your conversation. Or listening to a video on max volume. Like I feel like it all boils down to inconsiderate behavior. Or like leaving a shopping cart just randomly. And I used to work at a grocery store, so I had to go get them. And now, it’s like “What are you doing? Why it’s 20 feet over there? Just go do it.” I think it’s inconsiderate behavior is really where it gets me.

Carolyn: Ooh. Those are really good ones. I hadn’t thought of them. Now, I’m feeling—

John: This is a thing now. We’re doing it.

Carolyn: Yeah, come on.

John: Okay. Like yeah.

Carolyn: Yeah.

John: I feel like the smartphones, you should have to take a test to whether or not you’re able to own a smartphone. Just because you have speakerphone doesn’t mean you should be on it at all. When I worked at an office, that was my pet peeve, was the partners would always hit speaker phone and then dial the phone number. Ring, ring, ring. And then when the person picks up, they would pick up the receiver to talk, but I don’t need to hear your boo, boo, boo, boo ring, ring, ring. No, pick up the receiver. Dial it that way. Like what are you doing?

Carolyn: That’s so inconsiderate. Absolutely right.

John: That’s really what it boils down to. And probably none of those things happen in Canada ’cause it’s magic land.

Carolyn: Oh, we’re very polite up here. Yes. Uh-huh.

John: Right?

Carolyn: No, no, but you’re right. I mean, honestly, sometimes on the beach it’s like people are out there, families picnicking and stuff. And then the next day, it’s like “Dude, you had your beer and the recycling’s right there and you just had to leave it on the grass. Like why?”

John: Yeah. Yeah, littering. Yeah.

Carolyn: It’s like, oh, I hate that.

John: That’s out there too.

Carolyn: Ugh! Okay. So my next question for you, John, is when you come back in your next life, who or what would you want to be?

John: Holy moly. Carolyn Ellis, that’s who I wanna be. I wanna be you. Wow. That is a good question. I mean, part of me wants to be like a dog or something where it’s just like life is good. Like I got zero pressure. I’m surprised every time my owner comes home. It’s just always a party and not a lot of pressure, and I can just pee wherever I want, and we’re good. Yeah, everyone loves you.

Carolyn: Everyone loves you. State of delight the whole time.

John: Yeah. I feel like a dog wouldn’t be so bad, you know. Like it’s kind of nice to just have a rotation off, if you will, where it’s like, hey, less pressure. Like we’re good. I don’t need all the pressure of all that stuff.

Carolyn: Oh, that’s a lot of training involved with that. That’s a very special kind of free incarnation.

John: We might start the training. And 2 hours in, they’ll be like “No, not this one.” We gotta like move them out to something else.

Carolyn: I think that’s a wonderful answer. And it’s just good boy, John.

John: Yeah, there you go. And yeah, more good boys. I feel like we need like more of that in my existence.

Carolyn: Please. Well, you nailed those answers. Thank you so much for playing the game.

John: No, no, absolutely. Thank you for being the host and honestly for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This has been super, super awesome, Carolyn. Thank you so much.

Carolyn: Awesome. It’s been a delight. Thanks so much.

John: Everyone listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Carolyn on stage, or maybe connect with her on social media, or check out her book (Lead Conversations That Count), be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. Thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 515 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. It was so kind of the Independent Press Awards to name it a Distinguished Favorite. It’s really, really cool to have that for my first book. And overall, the book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Chase Birky. He’s the CEO and cofounder of Dark Horse CPAs. And now, he’s with me here today. Chase, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Chase: Thank you, John. Happy to be here.

John: Yeah, it’s gonna be a blast. We connected over a random LinkedIn post that you had about an article about how supposedly accountants are boring and then somebody is like “You should talk to John Garrett.” And I was like “Ooh, that’s a lot of pressure.” Like a whole profession I need to turn around. But no, it will be fun. But I do have some rapid fire questions. Get to know Chase out of the gate here. So maybe an easy one, a favorite color.

Chase: Forest green.

John: Okay, nice. How about a least favorite color?

Chase: Fuchsia.

John: Fuchsia. Nice. Don’t even know how to spell it. That’s how much I don’t like it.

Chase: It has a C in there.

John: Right. Weird. Like what? That makes me angry actually just because of that. Do you prefer more talk or text?

Chase: Talk?

John: Talk. Okay. Yeah. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Chase: Ooh, let’s go with Edward Norton.

John: Oh, yeah. He’s so good. Like so good. Like deceptively good. How about a favorite season, summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Chase: It depends on where I am. In Vegas, it’s definitely not summer.

John: Right.

Chase: I would say fall just because seasons are turning and college football’s on as well as—

John: Amen, man. That’s why it’s my favorite too. Exactly. Yeah. It’s exactly right. How about when it comes to puzzles, Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Chase: Crossword.

John: Crossword. Okay. Oh, nice. All right. How about a favorite movie of all time?

Chase: The Big Lebowski.

John: Oh, there you go. All right. I see. I see. how about when it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Chase: Audio version.

John: Audio. Okay. All right. Yeah. I just started getting into that and it’s great ’cause you can double speed it and just burn through a book. It’s like “Wow.” All right. Great.

Chase: Yeah. I find that I am not using as much of my brain, which is helpful, when I’m trying to absorb information after a bit of a day. So for me, it works.

John: Yeah. Totally. I totally get it. And do you have a favorite number?

Chase: 14.

John: Yeah. Is there a reason?

Chase: That is always the number that I had in all sports growing up.

John: Okay. It’s a solid number. Yeah. You got lucky, man.

Chase: I don’t know how I landed on it, but I stuck with it once I did.

John: That’s a good number, man. That’s solid. There you go. What’s a typical breakfast?

Chase: Breakfast burrito.

John: Oh, you know what? Those are like so good. I mean, it’s just like everything all wrapped and then you could just now messy hands, just eat it. Yeah. That’s so good.

Chase: I spent good 15 years in San Diego, so I got pretty accustomed to that as a breakfast item. And I’m also pretty picky on it, but I will say my favorite item is just something I can’t really find where I currently am is a breakfast pizza.

John: Oh! Never even heard of that. Okay.

Chase: Yeah.

John: All right. So it’s the burrito just opened up?

Chase: Kinda. Yeah. I mean, there’s a place in San Diego that does one. it’s an Italian spot called Pappalecco. And it’s basically a Neapolitan-style pizza with an over easy egg, sausage, potatoes. And it’s just delicious.

John: Yeah. Wow. All right. That sounds like that’s also one of your ands. That’s for sure like it.

Chase: I’m a bit of a foodie for sure.

John: Yeah, no, that’s awesome. I love it. ‘Cause you have the accounting background, balance sheet or income statement?

Chase: I’m gonna say balance sheet just because it’s underappreciated. It’s the dark horse of financial statements.

John: Ah, I see what you did there. I see what you did. Circle around there. All right. All right. How about when it comes to your computer, PC or a Mac?

Chase: Absolutely. PC. I mean, I’m on the iPhone, you know, as far as the Mac world, but everything in accounting is just PC native. So I’m all in on that.

John: Yeah. I’m same with PC. Absolutely. How about your first concert?

Chase: First concert… Actually, the first concert I was supposed to go to got canceled even though we drove 2 hours to see it not realizing it was canceled. That was actually supposed to be The Lost Profits, which was a UK-based band. They’re kind of alt rock.

John: Yeah. Oh, man, bummer. But it makes for a great story, I guess, sort of. Have you been able to catch them since?

Chase: No, I haven’t.

John: Okay. And my musical tastes have kind of changed over the years. So one thing that most people are surprised to learn about me is that I’m really big into EDM.

John: Oh, okay.

Chase: I may be one of the only CPAs you’ll find at a rave.

John: Ah, you’d be surprised, but yeah. But I mean, a lot of tax information being distributed to the audience like “Is this your business? Those glow sticks are tax deductible.”
“What?!” Right?

Chase: I can assure you those are not the conversations I’m having there, but point taken nonetheless.

John: Exactly. Exactly. That’s hilarious. How about Star Wars or star Trek?

Chase: Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. Yeah, me too. All right. We got three more. How about when it comes to your ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Chase: A cone. And actually, hopefully, that cone is chocolate dipped.

John: Ah, yes. There you go. There you go. How about your favorite college football game that you attended?

Chase: It was the Rose Bowl with Justin Herbert’s last year, the Ducks and the Badgers. It was a game that I thought we were gonna lose up until midway through the 4th quarter.

John: That was an insane game. I totally remember that.

Chase: Totally insane game. Herbert had three rushing touchdowns, which was just beast mode status. And it capped off a road trip that we did from Southern Oregon all the way down to Rose Bowl. And it was epic.

John: Yeah. And Rose Bowl is such a great place to see a game anyway.

Chase: Other than the parking I will say.

John: Well, yeah, no. Right. The parking was super—

Chase: The parking was a nightmare, but the venue is incredible.

John: Yeah. Just really cool history there. All right. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Chase: You know, for me, it’s probably not so much a tangible item. It’s probably more the freedom and autonomy that I have that I didn’t always have in previous jobs. I mean, to me, that’s what I value most. You know, not the material things that have come as a result of that, but really it’s just that autonomy is what I value most.

John: Totally. No, that’s solid answer. That totally works. So how about let’s talk college football? That’s also one of my ands, so I’m super excited about this.

Chase: Yeah. And you’re a Notre Dame fan from what I understand.

John: Yeah. I mean, it’s where I went to school, but I’m just a huge college football fan in general. But yeah, definitely Notre Dame’s my team.

Chase: What do you think about the Brian Kelly departure?

John: Yeah, that was crazy, man. Also, it’s my podcast. I’ll ask you the question. I’m totally teasing. No, but I do some work with the team for their award show every year. And so, I had gotten to know BK a good amount. That’s my helmet that’s on my shelf. It is signed by him and with a little note. And he was always good to me, but yeah, it was crazy. But you know, when there’s $95 million—

Chase: Money talks.

John: Yeah. I mean, definitely. And so, we’ll see how it plays out. I think Marcus Freeman’s awesome, and he’s a really good person, and the players love him.

Chase: He was the assistant there. Right?

John: He was a defensive coordinator for 1 year.

Chase: Coordinator. Yeah.

John: So he had only been there 1 year or less than 1 year technically when he was hired on as the head coach. And so, yeah, we’ll see how it all plays out, but a lot of the staff are awesome now too. And the players are excited. The recruits are excited, which is most important, but I feel like we both can hate USC equally. So we have a common bond there.

Chase: Especially with that Lincoln Riley showing up.

John: Oh, totally. And then taking half of Oklahoma’s team with him. It’s like “Come on, man. That’s dirty.” Like this is just weird.

Chase: The only thing I’ll say that’s good about that is the Pac-12 is in desperate need of relevance. And hopefully, that restores some of the previous cache at the conference ’cause we’re—

John: Exactly. So how has Oregon become your team?

Chase: So I, I grew up in Oregon.

John: Ah, okay.

Chase: Yeah. And so, you know, you’re either a Beaver or Duck for the most part, and there’s some pretty ill will amongst the two groups. And for me growing up, I kind of liked both to be honest. Oregon, for a long time, didn’t have a baseball team. Oregon state did. They won national championships, you know. So I always followed them. But when it came to football, I mean, the brand that Oregon is and especially when they were pioneering that no huddle, fast tempo offense when no one else was, it was just so exciting.

John: Yeah. Chip Kelly as the coach and then yeah.

And then plus the Nike alignment. And they get all the cool jerseys, and gear, and all that stuff. And the stadium’s nuts. I mean, it’s awesome. It’s great to see a game in.

Chase: Right. I mean, Uncle Phil definitely is kind of the angel investor behind all this that has definitely paid dividends for the program. That’s for sure.

John: Yeah. No, that’s awesome. And so, you’ve been to quite a few games then as well.

Chase: Yeah. And actually, most of them actually haven’t been at Autzen. It’s just kind of been wherever I’ve been subsequent to that. But yeah, I mean, anytime I get the chance, I’m there, although I will say going to the Pac-12 championship in Vegas when they played Utah was extremely disheartening. And I actually left during the 3rd quarter ’cause I was so upset.

John: All right. It’s an emotional experience. Right? I mean, it’s like I’m not playing, but I’m playing. Like I feel like it. Like it hurts when we lose. And when we win, it’s exhilarating, and I’m gonna be hoarse after for sure just from cheering. And yeah, all that.

Chase: My wife doesn’t love the fall because I’m either on a really great day or a really terrible day. So she doesn’t know what she’s gonna get, you know. And it’s not within my control obviously. You might say I could control my reactions, but maybe I’m not that evolved at this point in my life.

John: No, no, I think you’re doing all right, man. I think you’re doing all right. Like I’ll see you at the meetings. Like college football anonymous, here we come. No, but it’s just such a great experience when you’re there live. But even watching on TV, it’s so cool. Are there other teams you’ll watch as well or is it pretty much just a straight Oregon thing?

Chase: Well, I binge watch college football, so I start pretty much at about 6 a.m. with college game day.

John: Nice. Yeah.

Chase: You know? ‘Cause I love the pageantry. I love the conversation. Some of those human interest stories they do.

John: Sure. Yeah.

Chase: You know, it gets me just fired up for the rest of the day. And honestly, I’m usually watching until 8 or 9 at night Pacific time, so it’s a long day of football, which is then followed up by another not quite as long day of football, but NFL.

John: Right. On Sundays.

Chase: Watching RedZone and all that. So my wife doesn’t see as much of me as she probably would prefer to during September through January-ish.

John: Exactly. But you know, at least you have a passion like for something. And that’s cool, man. And is this something that you talk about with coworkers or clients or does it come up?

Chase: I mean, kind of the running joke at Dark Horse is that I’ll be able to correlate just about any statement back to football. So I try to be mindful of that to not alienate those who don’t care. But you know, it is a pretty universal thing when it comes to college football because most— well, every CPA went to college, right, so they have some allegiance usually unless they went to a small school without a football program. But you know, everyone has some sort of connection to it I find and even folks that you might not suspect. You know, we’ve got a VP of technology who’s from China, but he’s actually probably even a bigger college football fan than I am.

John: That’s awesome.

Chase: Yeah. He went to the Ohio State.

John: Oh, on purpose? No, I’m just kidding. I’m teasing.

Chase: That’s what I wondered. But you know, he’s used to winning.

John: Sure.

Chase: But he probably knows more about college football.

John: Especially recently. Yeah. ‘Cause he probably caught on after the Cooper era and, you know, like whatever. So yeah, it’s like “All right, good for you, man.” It’s like those young Patriots fans and Red Sox fans that don’t remember when they were terrible, but that’s cool that you’re able to find that bond over— I mean, someone from China and it’s over something that’s deeper and something you’re both passionate about like that above and beyond spreadsheets, computers, and accounting, and whatever.

Chase: Totally. I mean, when you can find those areas, you can always find ways to connect because it’s just an easy point of conversation, right? When you’re searching for that point of commonality, it’s a lot harder and a lot more exhausting. That’s for sure.

John: Yeah. Even if it’s not exactly the same thing, at least you know about it and then you can ask questions and be genuinely interested in it as opposed to just I don’t even know who you are type of thing, you know. And how important do you feel that is? I mean, especially for Dark Horse where it’s so remote with everyone on the team.

Chase: Yeah. I mean, I really think that being remote, which companies have been forced to do, and obviously some are going back more to the office, but we were remote before the pandemic and we intend to be that way forever because it really fits our business model. But being remote requires you to be a lot more intentional about connection and culture.

Because if you’re not, it’s just not gonna happen because you don’t have the water cooler conversations, you know. So the need for intentionality in terms of reaching out to people and having meaningful connections, I think, has been a learning curve for a lot of folks. And even though we started remote, we’re always learning better ways to connect and make it more regular and do what we can to bridge the gap of in-person relationships to things like Zoom and Microsoft Teams.

John: Yeah. ‘Cause, I mean, when you’re in person, those things happen accidentally. You’re around somebody. You go to lunch together. You’re in their office. You see the whites of their eyes. Yeah, like you said, the water cooler, whatever, in the hallway. You know, those conversations happen. And this, you get on a video call and then when the agenda— and then when it’s done, the screen goes black, and you’re like “Uh, was that good? I don’t know. You know, like I’m not sure.” And so, like you said, being intentional with it. Are there things that Dark Horse does specifically that you find help to make that happen whether it’s leading a meeting with something or something like that?

Chase: Yeah. I mean, I guess from 30,000 feet, what I believe to be the most impactful component of culture is purpose. Because if you’re aligned around a common purpose and mission, then a lot of that tends to figure itself out. But beyond that, I mean, we do a kickoff call every Monday where we talk about different initiatives, and highlighting people’s successes, and all those sorts of things to keep people connected with kind of the broader organization. And then we have huddles on a daily basis for different areas of the business that get people a space to connect and shoot the breeze, if you will, or talk about different areas that they’re trying to improve in or get maybe a second opinion on best practice huddles. I mean, just really a series of scheduled touch points that aren’t too much that it distracts people and makes people feel obligated, but striking that balance to push people to connect, but not dominate their day.

John: Yeah. No. Just be intentional with it and you bring people together and then magic happens, you know. And then we’ve been in each other’s homes now. Like you can see the art on the wall, or the cat catwalk across the screen, or the whatever.

Chase: And the toddler on the knee. Yeah. I mean, you really get a window that you’d never had before into people’s actual personal life, which I think definitely fosters connection in a lot of ways. And then the other thing we do is an annual retreat typically after the last deadline for us of October 15th and get everyone together. But you know, when we get everyone together, it’s really cool to see relationships that started online pick up right where you left them off online and people— It shows you that it’s not just a synthetic sort of connection. It’s a real connection because you see it in person and it’s as authentic as it is on Zoom.

John: Yeah. And then it just accelerates it. So then the next time we meet virtually, then it’s even further advanced. And yeah, that little bit of in person is huge. Definitely. That’s really awesome. And so, were you always like this as far as like sharing an and or even having ands or earlier in your career?

Chase: Yeah. I mean, I think I’ve kind of maybe been on too far the spectrum of what might be called an overshare.

John: Oh, okay.

Chase: I just kind of lead with whatever’s on my mind and really trying to give people an authentic window into who I am, not who I’m trying to project myself to be.

John: Yeah. And I mean, is there any negative ramifications that come from that or is it mostly in our heads that we think that we’re oversharing? Because relative to everyone else who’s sharing nothing, I’m oversharing by saying one thing, you know.

Chase: Yeah. I mean, there’s always a downside if you share something that makes someone uncomfortable maybe.

John: Well, yeah, of course. Right.

Chase: I think the positive, what I focus on is that humanizing, you know, you as either a coworker, a leader, whatever position you’re in in the firm really just helps foster a meaningful relationship. When people know that when they’re talking to you that they’re getting the true you and not just the accountant or CPA version of you goes a long way ’cause, you know, at the end of the day, it’s a relationship business whether it’s with clients or with coworkers, or team members, or whomever. And you really have to invest the time in people, in relationships to do what you wanna do from a business standpoint and also enjoy the journey along the way.

John: I love that, man. That’s so good right there. It’s so good. Yeah. And of course, leading with something that’s controversial, or illegal, or taboo, let’s not do that, then it’s unprofessional actually. But you know, if it’s not your fault somebody went to the university of Washington, if that makes you uncomfortable, I can’t help that.

Chase: AKA my brother-in-law and we’re always talking craft to each other, which I’ve had the upper hand for a number of years.

John: It got ugly. It got ugly the last couple years. Woo! Yeah, it got weird, but you’re exactly right. And you know, it’s just being intentional with that and, and caring about others, and creating that human connection, you know. ‘Cause at the end of the day, it’s still a human-to-human transaction that’s happening.

Chase: Well, and the other thing too is that people struggle with things whether they’re health, whether they’re relationships, whether that’s stress. And if you don’t take the time to really unpack those things to the extent that people feel comfortable sharing, you’re not able to support them in the ways that they need. And I think that often gets overlooked in public accounting, especially during busy seasons or tax seasons, where the work just has to get done and your problems can wait until things slow down sort of thing. But at the end of the day, if you’re not supporting people, they can’t bring their best self to work. They can’t do the kind of work that they would otherwise be able to if they had a clear mind and not so much hanging over their head.

John: Yeah. No. You’re spot on. I mean, when I keynote at conferences, it’s asking people are your people living their best life. Because if they’re living their best life, they’re gonna do their best work. But if they’re not living their best life, they’re not gonna be doing their best work. I mean, they’re just not. So if we fix this thing, like you said earlier when we’re talking, everything falls out from that. And so, are you living your best life? Awesome. Are you doing your ands? Are you sharing them? Awesome. Then everything good’s gonna happen.

Chase: Yehah

John: Especially at Dark Horse where you guys— the bios for everyone on your team on the website, but the last paragraph is always, you know, when they’re not crunching numbers, they’re doing this or doing that. And it just really humanizes everybody to go from “Well, they all work for an accounting firm” to “Well, no, they’re all different in their own way, which is cool.” And I’m sure that people can connect over that whether it’s with clients or coworkers.

Chase: Yeah. So I write all those myself. My mom made me take all these advanced placement, you know, international baccalaureate English courses, which I hated growing up. But I’ve come to find that writing is a really key differentiator and you know, something that’s super valuable in the workplace.

John: Yeah. That’s where the crossword puzzle answer came from earlier. I see.

Chase: Exactly.

John: Okay. Okay. All right.

Chase: Exactly. And also Scrabble. I love Scrabble, which might put me in the nerd category, but it’s hard to beat my parents ’cause they know way more words than I do.

John: Right. It’s like they had a head start or something, like they’re cheating.

Chase: They’ve read more books. They’ve looked up the dictionary more times.

John: Right.

Chase: They’re tough to beat.

John: Well, it’s all right. One day, man. One day. Like it’s all good. It’s all good. So, yeah. So do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that might have an and, but they feel like no one’s gonna care because it has nothing to do with my job?

Chase: You know, I would say I guess taking a step back even further if you are working at a company, or accounting firm, or wherever that you don’t feel like you have that level of rapport with the people you work with, maybe you should look at working somewhere else because if there’s not that level of rapport in relationship that you feel like you could bring up a hobby, which I would say is maybe some of the more or less emotion-filled areas of people’s lives, you know.

John: Unless it’s college football for you and me, but either way, it’s benign, you know. It’s a benign thing of a hobby.

Chase: 100%. Yeah. I think just in general, you know, accounts are in large struggling from existential crises in terms of trying to find ways that their work is actually providing meaning to their lives and helping them live the life that they want to live as opposed to just getting from deadline to deadline. And so, that’s what I’m really most passionate about with Dark Horse, is giving people the platform to design their life in a way that when they’re at their deathbed, they’re gonna be proud of and they’re gonna live a story that’s meaningful. And if you’re not intentional about it and if you don’t have the platform and support to do it, there’s a lot of folks that get to retirement and they’re like “I’ve worked my whole life for this. And by the way, I kind of missed out along the way because I was so focused on being done with work and being secure that my best years I didn’t enjoy.”

Right? So one of the exercises we do with people, usually once a year, is we have them write their obituary. Ad this is my idea. This is actually from Donald Miller.

John: StoryBrand. Yeah.

Chase: Exactly. Yeah. Out of Nashville. And really, the point of that is what do you want to be said about your life? And if you start with that end in mind, then you can really be intentional about how you’re structuring your life and your work to make that happen. It’s like anything where you have a goal. If you have that goal and you’re focused on it, you’re a lot more likely to achieve it than just kind of having it in the ether and having some vague ideas about things and not doing tangibly what you need to do in the here and now to make that happen. So we like to have people start with that end in mind and how are you gonna build a practice and a lifestyle that’s gonna support you in and really what you want your life’s work to be about.

John: Yeah. And is it something that we share with the team as well?

Chase: Yeah.

John: Oh, okay. Nice.

Chase: I mean, we don’t force people to say, but just about everyone feels comfortable enough to share it.

John: That’s awesome, man. There’s gonna be a lot of CEOs of Dark Horse in the room. That’s weird. It’s like target on my back, but I love that because it’s literally are you living your best life? Like how can we help you do that? You know, explicitly saying it out loud, and we care, and how can I help you get to that end goal type of thing. And that’s how much you care about the person, which is great ’cause you can’t get that a lot of places, you know. And it’s something that that’s simple, but it’s genuine and it runs deep. I love it, man. That’s such a great example that literally everyone can do.

Chase: Yeah. I mean, for me, it was really what we are doing when you look at the motivating factors and the purpose. You know, going out on my own was not something that was necessarily intentional. It was just a product of the circumstances for me. And in that, I really was able to realize that I could do a lot more than I thought I could. You know, I realized that I could be the author of my own story and that I had control over my life. And I could find things that I found compelling, and interesting, and worthwhile that I could focus my time and energy towards. So starting what’s now Dark Horse was probably more personally transformational than even professionally.

John: Totally.

Chase: Having said that, there’s a lot of blood, sweat, tears, and sacrifice along the way. So really what Dark Horse is about is let’s give people that platform without as many of the headaches in the trials and tribulations because so many firms out there, you know— I mean, 99% of firms out there, you start as staff, and senior, then manager, then senior manager and grinding for 15 to 20 years hoping that you’re gonna be one of the 2% that makes partner. And at the end of the day, this doesn’t happen for a lot of people. A lot of people opt out before they get there because they’re just so burnt out and run down. Right?

John: Yeah.

Chase: But you know, that kind of just comes from an old school traditional mindset. And what we’ve found is that when you’re talking about CPAs, you’re talking about high capacity, high integrity people. And if you give ’em the right platform, the right tools, and the right coaching, they’re so much more capable than I think a lot of the firms that they come from believe they are. And we see just that light bulb turn on it’s not just about them growing a book of business. It’s enjoying their life. That’s what it’s all about.

John: It’s amazing how much we believe whatever the narrative that’s fed us or even the narrative we tell ourselves. I mean, my inner critic is brutal. I mean, so much more brutal than anyone could possibly be. And it’s the self-limiting factor that’s just terrible, you know. And it’s cool to step out on the limb and be supported, and you can do it and all that. So it’s just so cool to hear you’ve been through that as well. So that’s awesome, man.

Chase: Yeah. I think as accountants in general, we suffer from paralysis by analysis and knowing what we don’t know. It’s a sign of intelligence, but it’s also something that can be a barrier to growth when the kind of knowledge of what you don’t know and what you feel like your faults are and all that just— you know, know it can get in your way. Right?

John: Totally. No, I love it, man. So encouraging. So encouraging. And I feel like before we wrap this up though, it’s only fair that we turned the table since I peppered you with questions at the beginning. We make this the first episode of The Chase Birky Podcast. So thanks for having me on as a guest and I’m all yours, man.

Chase: All right. Well, my rapid fire questions are in relation to college football.

John: Okay.

Chase: They’re easy questions, but I might judge you for the answers.

John: Okay. I’m gonna judge myself before you can judge me. I’m judging that I’m judging you’re judging.

Chase: That’s very meta of you. Very meta.

John: Right.

Chase: All right. So I got 3 questions here all about college football.

John: Okay.

Chase: Number 1: What is the most overrated conference in college football?

John: SEC hands down 100%. I’ll fight anybody on that. It’s Alabama and maybe one other team and then 12 average teams at best. It’s like get out of here. Quit playing in your FCS schools and play somebody north of the Mason-Dixon line so we can actually see you guys not just play yourselves in this fake bubble that ESPN continues to feed. Hopefully that was the right answer.

Chase: That is the correct—

John: That’s the right answer?

Chase: Yes.

John: Okay. All right. All right.

Chase: All right. Next question. What is next year’s surprise team?

John: Ah, next year’s surprise team. So kinda like the Cincinnati of—

Chase: Yes.

John: …2021. That’s a good question. I feel like— I don’t know. I feel like somebody like a Miami maybe or maybe a Florida state. Somebody that’s gonna just rebound that’s a historically good team that’s been not good for a while and they’re due to come back. I don’t mean like they’re gonna be in the playoffs, but I mean like 9 in 3, 8 in 4, 9 in 3 kind of thing, so be respectable at least.

Chase: Yeah. I would say Miami is a good answer. It’s one that I’m also bitter about because Mario Cristobal used to be our coach. He’s now at Miami. So I think he’s gonna turn them around in a pretty meaningful way.

John: Right. And the recruits are there and everything. So I feel like, you know, maybe not playoffs, but like respectable.

Chase: Right. And actually, that brings up another question that I’m gonna add here. How many teams should be in the playoff? How big should the playoff field be?

John: You know, I kinda liked it when it’s just 1 and 2, when it was kind of the BCS and then the bowls could be the bowls and whatever ’cause it’s hard ’cause there’s always gonna be “Oh, well, let’s make it 8 teams.” Well, there’s always a ninth that should be in there. And then are we cutting down the season now to only be 9 games because we have to have the championship eventually be whatever? I don’t know. So I’m kind of traditionalist though. Like, I mean, even before that, before the BCS when it was just like just play the balls and all that, so I don’t know. I can see the other side too though. It’s just the wear and tear on these student athletes is a lot. I mean, it’s a lot now.

Chase: So my personal opinion, I’m on the other side, I think we should have 8 teams. I think you should take away one of those meaningless FCS games you mentioned off the front end of the schedule. If you win at your power five conference, automatic bid. Then three at large, it gives a conference of five like Cincinnati a chance, although they probably end up playing Alabama and getting crushed, but they still get a chance. And then two at large teams, probably one from the SEC and one from the big 10 or the big 12 as it stands currently.

John: Right. I could see that as well. It’s just you gotta shorten the schedule and then you also have to make sure that the wear and tear and the academic side of it too for the schools that have student athletes instead of athlete athletes, but I mean, more college football isn’t a bad thing. So like, yes, it’s like would you like 4 scoops of ice cream? Totally. Like why would we only have one?

Chase: Right. And the other thing for me, I mean, this might just be informed by Oregon losing two national championship games, is the number of weeks off in between the regular season and the bowls tends to benefit the SEC because the defense is usually so much better than the team they’re playing. So, you know, with 3-4 weeks the game plan—

John: Against the offense. Right.

Chase: Exactly. And the offense comes out, you know, not clicking like they were during the regular season tends to disadvantage my team. So that’s a totally biased take on it.

John: I mean, I feel like all our takes are biased. I mean, on everything. They’re based on our experience. So, you know, that’s awesome. No, very cool. Was there one more question?

Chase: There’s one more question. And so, this one is another biased question, Oregon versus Georgia season opener, are you taking Georgia -15 or Oregon +15?

John: Oh, I’ll take Oregon +15 on that.

Chase: I like it.

John: I think Georgia’s gonna be a little overconfident. I feel like they got super lucky last year. And yeah, I think Oregon. I think so. I mean, there’s plenty of speed in offense.

And 15 points, good Lord. Yeah, that is a lot.

Chase: I mean, I think you got two things. One, we’ve got the defensive coordinator from Georgia from last year, so he’s gonna have some inside knowledge. And #2, it’s the first game of the season, so neither team is gonna be playing their best. I mean, if this was middle of the season, I actually might say Georgia..

John: Not by 15. No way. Yeah. I mean, they still got their walk on quarterback. They’re still rolling with that. It’s like he’s the Rudy of the SEC. It’s like we got a new Rudy now. Good for him. E C now. Like it’s like, we got a new Rudy now. So it’s like, you know, good for him and good for Georgia for getting the monkey off their back and all that, but goodness.

Chase: Rudy is probably someone close to your heart as an Irish fan of the movie.

John: Not the individual. The movie.

Chase: The movie.

John: Of course.

Chase: Yeah.

John: But yeah, not the individual per se, but this has been so much fun, Chase. We could go on forever because this is also my and, but we should probably wrap it up. So thanks so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”?

Chase: Thanks, John. Really appreciate it. Really enjoyed the conversation and hope to talk soon.

John: Everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Chase outside of work at a college football game or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 513 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth into the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and listening to it on Audible, and writing such great reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Lynne Titley. She’s the associate director of finance at Space & Time Media in Bournemouth, UK. And now, she’s with me here today. Lynne, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Lynne: Thank you so much. I love this podcast. Really pleased to be here.

John: Oh, thank you. This is gonna be so much fun ’cause I’m a musician as well. I mean, we’re gonna be so close to jamming by the end of this.

Lynne: I feel like you’re gonna get it completely.

John: Right? Exactly. But before I get going in that stuff, I have 17 rapid fire questions. Get to know Lynne out of the gate. So here we go. I’ll start you with an easy one, I think. Favorite color.

Lynne: Pink now. Yeah, it used to be blue. Now, pink.

John: Okay. Okay. All right. How about a least favorite color?

Lynne: Yeah. Orange.

John: You know what? That is by far the most least favorite color of everyone.

Lynne: Weird. Isn’t it?

John: I should just stop asking the question.

Lynne: You know, I think it’s just been done. It’s just been overdone. There’s too much orange for me.

John: Right. Any orange at all is too much.

Lynne: Yeah.

John: There you go. How about a favorite animal? Any animal at all.

Lynne: Oh, I’ve gotta go cats.

John: Cats.

Lynne: Yeah. We’ve got a cat. She would crucify me if I said anything else.

John: Right. Just in case she listens.

Lynne: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John: You know, that works. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw?

Lynne: Crossword. Because I spend so much time with numbers in the daytime obviously. A crossword is a nice kind of change of pace, change of angle on things. Yeah.

John: That’s an excellent point right there for sure. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Lynne: Hugh Jackman.

John: Yeah. He’s excellent. And he’s so good in everything. Like he’s so diverse.

Lynne: He’s just such a nice bloke. He’s just so humble.

John: Oh, that too. Yeah. Just a good person.

Lynne: He can just play anything and he’s just— Yeah. Yeah. He’s awesome. I hope my husband doesn’t listen to this.

John: We’re talking about as an actor. He’s a nice person.

Lynne: Completely professional interest.

John: Yeah. Absolutely. If you could date any actor, who would it be? Also Hugh Jackman, but that isn’t the question I asked. That was a totally different question. Right? How about a favorite place you’ve been on vacation?

Lynne: Ooh, okay. Well, we just went to Italy a couple of weeks ago. I went to Verona and it was awesome. Really loved it. Really beautiful. Just walk everywhere from where we stayed, and great restaurants and architecture, and it was lovely. Really lovely break. So yeah, I’m gonna say at the moment, Verona. I’d otherwise change my mind, but yeah.

John: That totally works. Yeah. How about more Star Wars or star Trek?

Lynne: Star Wars for the films and Star Trek for the TV.

John: Oh, yeah. I’ll take that. I’ll take that. Absolutely. Absolutely. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Lynne: I’ve never really had a chance to use Macs. I had iPhones for a while, but not Mac. So yeah, PC all my life. It just because that’s all I’ve ever had been given to.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I’m curious. In the UK, toilet paper roll, is it over or under? Are you guys like reverse?

Lynne: It’s incredibly contentious, John. I won’t lie. It’s very contentious. So that sounds like you have the same problem over there.

John: Yeah.

Lynne: Yeah. I mean, what can I say? For me personally, it’s over without a doubt. Just there is no argument, but I know there are people out there who disagree. I won’t begin to try and understand them.

John: Right. Exactly. I think they’re French. There you go. Oh, this is a fun one. Ice cream. I’m a huge ice cream fan. You get ice cream in a cup or in a cone?

Lynne: I usually get cup because it feels less unhealthy. I feel less guilty if I get it in a cup.

John: Right. Sometimes I try and talk ’em into putting the cone on top of the cup so that I get both. It’s not messy, but I still get the calories and the sugar.

Lynne: Will they do that for you?

John: On occasion, yeah. If you ask and you ask nicely.

Lynne: Good call.

John: Yeah. It’s a super-secret bonus. Now, all the ice cream shops are gonna start e-mailing.

Quit telling people ’cause now we have to sell in cups and cones, and we’re running out of supplies. That will be the next world shortage. Ice cream cones. Now, I’m gonna be angry. Yeah. The gas prices is one thing. Ice cream cones, that’s where I’m drawing the line.

Lynne: Oh, I find some wafers— take some wafers in it or something instead. Like I don’t know. Find a KitKat or something.

John: Right. There you go. Here’s a fun one. Planes, trains, or automobiles?

Lynne: Oh, woah. Trains.

John: Yeah. Especially in Europe. You guys have it down.

Lynne: Yeah. Some European countries, absolutely. I’m not sure us quite so much, but I don’t like flying. I’ll be honest. I’ll do it, but I can’t say I enjoy it. I do get nervous. And yeah, if it’s a long journey, you wanna sit on a train and read or do a little bit extra work or life hack, you know, or sleep, or something.

John: Yeah. Absolutely. Plus, there’s a novelty to it. It’s kinda neat. You know, you don’t do it all the time. You know, a car is every day.

Lynne: Yeah. Absolutely. And when you go on holiday, like if you turn up at the station, as soon as you turn up at the station, you’re on holiday. Right? The journey is included in the holiday, I think, for me.

John: Yeah. No, that’s true. That’s an excellent point. Since you have the finance background, balance sheet or income statement?

Lynne: Balance sheet.

John: Oh?

Lynne: Yeah. No contest because net worth, right, is more important than income in any particular period. I think worth is much of the better measure of—

John: What’s the total accumulation? Where are we going here?

Lynne: Absolutely. Yeah.

John: All right. How about summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Lynne: Summer.

John: Summer. Okay.

Lynne: Yeah. I struggle. It’s contentious because I do get burnt quite easily, but I like being warm. I don’t like being cold. I like being warm though. I like to sit in the shade. Yeah. On a really hot day, sit in the shade, and just be warm, and just breathe. Yeah.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, we got three more. Do you have a favorite number?

Lynne: No, I couldn’t possibly choose. It would be rude to all the other numbers.

John: Especially the cats that like numbers just in case they’re all so listening.

Lynne: Yeah. Don’t make me choose.

John: Right? Fair enough. I won’t make you choose. When it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Lynne: Audio version.

John: Oh, okay.

Lynne: I think I’m all about the life hacks. I love to walk and listen to podcasts. So I’m getting my exercise and I’m getting my mental kind of development as well. Yeah. You can’t walk along holding the book. So yeah, podcast.

John: Plus, you can listen to it at like one and a half speed or two speed, and your brain still processes it, and it’s so much faster than actually reading. But, well, you’re also doing other things at the same time. That’s awesome.

Lynne: Absolutely. You can do your washing up. You can do your walk. You can do whatever you need to do.

John: Totally. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Lynne: I’m gonna go favorite thing I have. Not in the ownership sense. I’m gonna be really cheesy and say it’s my husband because he’s the absolute light of my life. I feel like I have my husband, so I’m gonna call him out.

John: Absolutely. So good. Just in case he didn’t turn it off earlier.

Lynne: Yeah.

John: Totally redeem yourself.

John: That’s so fantastic and super sweet. So, absolutely, that totally counts. Absolutely. So let’s talk jamming and what instruments do you play when you’re jamming?

Lynne: I sing primarily. I’m most comfortable singing, but I play keyboards as well. So quite often, I’ll play keys and sing. I did, last Christmas, surprise everybody, threw a bit of a curve ball in there by taking my cello to jam, which everybody thought— So we like played Christmas songs, which really lent themselves to cello. So I thought, well, I just say that. But yeah, mostly, it’s singing and playing keyboards.

John: Yeah. But I mean, cello, that’s not something you stumble across every day, you know. I mean, I play piano. So it’s like “Oh, okay. There’s people that play piano.” But cello, it’s like “Wait, what?”

Lynne: Yeah. I’m not quite sure how I neither— I started playing piano when I was about 4 and then I somehow started doing cello lessons when I was about 8 or 9. And so, it obviously wasn’t my choice because children that age don’t choose to do anything really. They just do what they’re told. They get sent. Yeah. I got kinda presented with a cello and told to go to lessons, and that was that.

John: But I mean, obviously now that you’re an adult, you still like it. So, you know, it’s, that’s something that brings you joy. And so, did you grow up in a musical household then?

Lynne: My dad was musical, but only sort of by ear. Very intuitive. He always said he didn’t wanna go to lessons. He’d rather go out and play football or, you know, go and watch trains or something. So yeah, he had a good musical ear and just played by ear. Whether there’s genes involved, I don’t know. I find it fascinating the whole thing about whether you’re musical or not. I can’t even begin. If I had more time, I would spend some time looking into why.

John: Yeah. What’s weird to me is like I can play, I can hear things that if they’re out of tune, I can do all that from the instrument side. But to sing, ooh, I’m terrible. I mean, I’m so bad. Like at church, old ladies turn around. They’re like “God still loves you. You don’t have to sing it out loud.” You know, like just lip-synch it. You know, just Milli Vanilli or whatever you wanna do.

Lynne: Actually, fascinating, isn’t it? I don’t understand how people can do what they can do in terms of playing, but I know loads of people who play beautifully, who are great at jams, but don’t sing or won’t sing. And I don’t understand how that is.

John: I don’t know if I need like decades of lessons or something because it’s not a quick fix, but I can hear that it’s off. And it’s like “Mm, this is not good.” But it’s so cool that you could do both. That’s awesome. You have my superpower. If I could have a superpower, that and dunk a basketball. Like that’s all I wish I could do. Singing and dunk a basketball at the same time. Like “Ahhh” and then just. So do you have like some favorite memories either from jamming or from growing up?

Lynne: Yeah, it’s funny actually. So I came through the education system doing music. In this country, you do your GCSEs at 16 and you’re a levels at 18. And I did music for both of those. And it put quite a lot of pressure on it in a way because you can’t get to a perfect kind of standard no matter how much you throw at music. You do it in an educational setting and somebody’s gonna put a scale on it and put numbers on it and say you’re this good, or that good, or whatever. So I found it a challenge from that point of view. And I was in bands, in covers bands, and tribute bands, and function bands, and stuff when I was in my 20s.

And then I kind of went away from music ’cause I was like— I did that because it felt like the natural thing to do with my spare time because music was my thing that I did. When I was about 30, I just kind of drifted away from it and spent about 10 years not doing any music at all on the cello when in the loft and didn’t do anything. And then I had a bit of change of life circumstances and moved sort of somewhere new or back home, actually back to where I was born. And I saw this advert on Facebook for a jam. And I’d never seen anything like that before.

I’d done karaoke periodically once in a while, like once every couple of years or something. You find yourself “Oh, there’s karaoke. I’ll do that.” I was always happy that I found that fun. And so, I saw this jam advert on Facebook and that’s the first one that I went to. And I was absolutely terrified. I kid you not. I was extremely nervous because sort of complicated history with music I would say in terms of that pressure of coming to an education system and rehearsing. And also, when you were in a band, rehearsing and getting it right. I always used to get nervous in bands ’cause I wanted it to be perfect. It’s never perfect.

John: No, that’s the beauty of it.

Lynne: Well, this is it. We jam, all I do. And I’m kind of jumping into how jam works a little bit, but you just rock up, and you do it, and it works or it doesn’t. And sometimes, it doesn’t, but sometimes it’s amazing. There’s no prep. There’s no practicing. It just is this piece of art or this thing on its own. And also, post-COVID, I completely removed all of the sort of nerves, and issues, and baggage surrounding it. And I’m just grateful for it. And I just appreciate it because it turned us around, I think, in terms of our appreciation of simple things and how fragile life. So now, I was so relieved when jam came back after COVID. The various venues started them up again, and I was able to go back and do some more. And now, yeah, I just try. I focus on just pure enjoyment of it and just enjoying the moment. And when it’s going great, just enjoy it, you know.

John: No. I love that mentality. That’s so good. You know, that whole just being in the moment and enjoying it for what it is, and we’re not able to do that at work all the time because we feel the pressure similar to the pressure of music. It’s gotta be perfect. When you’re in finance, and accounting, and law, and a lot of these professional jobs, you can’t miss or we think we can’t miss. We can. If you’re a heart surgeon, okay, maybe then you can’t miss. But everybody else, I mean, what’s the big deal? But we put that pressure on ourselves.

Lynne: Oh, we do.

John: And it’s cool to see that you had that breakthrough, you know, with the jamming that take some of the pressure off. And do you feel like it’s different now? Do you feel like you’re a different performer, different player?

Lynne: Yeah, absolutely. Very much. It’s revelationary really, if that’s a word, to realize that it doesn’t matter, that it doesn’t add anything. To stress about it, it doesn’t improve anything. It doesn’t make you enjoy it more. It’s just negative. Just put it down. Just forget it. Nobody else cares. Nobody else is nervous. Just enjoy it ’cause life is short. Just go on. You got 3 minutes to do a song. You got however many songs you end up doing. Just enjoy them ’cause life’s short.

John: Yeah. No, I love that so much. And I’m curious, the 10 years when you stepped away from music, what was that like professionally? Did it make a difference when you came back to music in your job or when you didn’t have music as part of your life? Did it enhance things or was it just another thing?

Lynne: I think it’s hard to separate the work from the music, from just getting more mature and getting more life experience, and COVID, and all of the other things that have happened. If I don’t take myself back to when I was about 40 and jam started, I’d been through some sort of life experiences and got a different perspective at that time anyway, a really sort of dramatically different perspective on what was important.

And so, that happened at the same time, sort of moved back home and started going to jams. So I’d already got a bit of that change of perspective. I think that it has given me some really valuable things though and some really valuable tools over the last 5 years. And it changed me in a really positive way. I think that I’ve got a much better appreciation of other people and what they can bring to the table because I can’t jam on my own.

John: Right. That’s true.

Lynne: You can sit and play on your own, but you can’t create that experience on your own of just putting a group of people in a room or in a bar and going “Right, these are the chords, go. What do you make of it?” And then being amazed by what they turn that into. In work, I would say back in my sort of 20s, I was much more of an individual contributor I would say, much more self-reliant in work. I was one of those typical people who would only trust themselves to do the thing. You know, those people who say I’ll do it myself, which is how I want it done or whatever.

John: By the time I explain it to you, I could have just done it 10 times.

Lynne: Absolutely. That cliché. I’m completely that person. So I’m a line manager now. And my perspective now is very much how can I enable my team? How can I get the most outta my team? What do I need to do for them to help them? That’s my job, is to get the collective best out of the team and make sure they’re as happy and enabled as they can be. I do think that jam has given me this appreciation of other people and what they bring that is translated into my working life.

John: I love that so much. Like imagine walking in. And the team, you look at them like a jam like “Okay, you’re the guitars, you’re keys, you’re the singer. Here’s the chords and don’t mess it up. Everybody go do your thing. Let’s jam. Let’s do this.” You know? Like how great would that be at work?

Lynne: I could just imagine doing that to my team. And they’d be like “Oh, my God.”

John: She has lost her mind. And she’s talking to some American guy again. Like what the hell is going on?

Lynne: Do you know what’s wrong actually? Is they probably wouldn’t go “Oh, my God.” They go “Yeah, this is not surprising.”

John: Right. What took you so long, Lynne? We’ve been waiting to jam forever.

Lynne: Yeah.

John: But just that mindset though, if everyone just looked at it as jamming, no pressure. Just stay within the cord and we’re good. And I mean, what a cool place to work, a cool department even within a company. That would be so much fun just to think of it that way. I mean, I love that mindset shift of, you know, everyone’s bringing their own thing and we’re all in it together. Do you feel like talking about jamming, is that something that you do at work? Do people know about this side of you? I mean, clearly, I’m guessing ’cause you were like “What took ’em so long?”

Lynne: Yeah. They do. Yeah. I’ve been quite open about it. And again, I’ve seen a real change in myself somewhere between my 20s and my 40s. because in earlier in my career, I was very back and white about it. And I was like I’m here to work. I’m being paid to work. I’m not being paid to chat.

John: Right. Right.

Lynne: I dunno. I’m gonna possibly come out on your podcast here a little bit ’cause I don’t know whether I’m possibly a little bit on the spectrum on the autism spectrum.

John: Oh, okay. Sure.

Lynne: You know, neurodiversity is cool. And I think that I have a very kind of black and white perspective on things sometimes.

John: Which makes you really good at finance, you know, like really good.

Lynne: Right.

John: But yeah. But I mean, so many people think that way of there isn’t a charge code to get to know people, or we don’t get paid to socialize, or that isn’t my job. And as a manager, as associate director, it’s not my job to make sure my people are living their best life. It’s just my job to make sure they’re getting their work done. And it’s like, well, it’s probably more. It’s actually more than that.

Lynne: Absolutely. This is where I’ve changed so much. I feel now like that was a very individual perspective on things ’cause I’ve kind of watching— So there’s a that I’ve heard about where if you offer a baby like a sweet now or two sweets in 30 seconds time, they’ll take the sweet now or three sweets in 60 seconds’ time and they’ll still take the sweet now. It’s very short term. And as you mature, the idea is that you evolve and you start looking at the long term. And this gets me thinking, well, actually, probably what I should be doing for the company—

Even if you look at it purely from the company’s benefit perspective, what I should be doing is maximizing my long-term contribution to the business for the duration that I’m there. How do I do that? ‘Cause that might not be just work the next minute because, work, that might be take a breather. And actually, the following minute, I’ll work twice as well because actually I’m a human being. I’m not a machine and I needed a breather right then. So I’m now thinking. My possibly slightly autistic self is thinking maybe there’s kind of a curve where we—

We know that there’s a curve. We know that when we work continuously, we do 10, 11, 12, 13 hours, we’re gonna end up spitting out rubbish because we are over time. So there’s got to be a balance there between you can’t just keep on working yourself into the ground. So where’s that balance and what does that involve? And now, I think, yeah, I’ve certainly got to a place these days where I think actually it’s about people.

Every business success is all about people, and people need to be happy to be productive. If they’re not happy, we know if we have arguments with people or something goes wrong, it can affect our sort of motivation and our performance. And so, let’s try and make people happy. And one of the things that people value is social connection. So let’s socially connect as a team and let’s talk about what our ands are and what our fun is because that’s where we come to life a little bit. So, yeah. Hell, yeah, I talk about my hobby now, and I am incredibly delighted that one of my team has just brought a saxophone and started learning saxophone because we talk about it.

John: There you go.

Lynne: She says she’s always wanted to do it. So, shout out to Gabs for taking the leap and I’m thrilled. I honestly couldn’t be happier and I’m so glad that you mentioned it.

John: Get a couple lessons. You can come down to jam as well.

Lynne: Yeah. Oh, well, it’s on her objectives, dude. It’s on her performance objectives. 6 months’ time, she’s coming to jam.

John: That’s great. Her work performance objectives are to come to jam and play. I love that because it absolutely should. You know, that’s the thing. Like when I work with organizations, it’s like why are the coaching, mentoring conversations not starting with your and? Like what is it that lights you up? Tell me about it. And when’s the last time you did it and when’s the next time you’re gonna go do it? You know, like let’s get this on and then we’ll get to the work stuff later certainly, but that stuff matters. And I love that you have that as a performance objective because it matters. If she’s not playing the saxophone or being encouraged to play the saxophone, she’s not as good at work.

Lynne: Yeah, yeah, no, she’s not gonna be as happy. Honestly, she’s lit up. She’s absolutely lit up with this thing. She would cringe I’m talking about her, but yeah, she’s really excited about it.

John: Right. We’ll have her on soon enough. Don’t worry. It’s all good.

Lynne: That actually would be nice. That is in fact—

John: Oh, but that’s so fantastic. I love it so much. And how much do you feel like it’s on the organization to create that space for people to share versus on the individual?

Lynne: Completely. Completely. And yeah, I’ve got a variety of experience of working in different organizations. And I think it’s a lot about size. I think once organizations get really big, you don’t have visibility at the senior leadership in an authentic way. You don’t see them day to day. You know, you just see the vision that they wanna present of what they are and very cultivated and edited. You know, even if they say we want you to be authentic, we want you to have fun, we want you to do whatever, you don’t have a relationship direct with them and you can’t necessarily believe that. And you’ve got a layer of middle management that you’re not sure is entirely invested in that. And so, yeah, you might say that, but does my boss really think that, might immediate—

John: Right.

Lynne: So you’re on the side of caution. Whereas I’ve recently moved jobs into a much smaller organization and the senior leadership totally live it and it makes such a difference. I feel absolutely empowered to just be myself, and have fun, and make jokes, and have a good time at work. And that generates an incredible amount of value, I think.

John: Yeah. And it’s those human connections connecting on the ands and the funnys like you said and like the things like that. That’s where the connection happens. It doesn’t happen because we’re both good at Excel and work in the same department.

Lynne: No. It doesn’t.

John: Like that’s nothing, you know. And so, I love how you’ve created this place. You’re what’s your and come to life.

Lynne: There’s energy. There’s energy with that, you know.

John: Yeah. No, it’s awesome. It’s so cool and so encouraging to hear that I’m not just crazy making things up in a bubble. It’s like “No, no. In the real world, it matters to everybody.” Like just do it. Something that simple.

Lynne: And yeah, like I say, I’m not being all corporate, and cutthroat, and kind of shareholder value about it. Happy people are more productive. It just all works. It’s a virtuous circle, you know.

John: Exactly. I mean, care about your people and good things happen. Like everything good comes from that. And for some reason, we’ve typically built business upside down where care about our people is on accident last and if it happens at all. And it’s like no, no, no, gotta be a priority. And I mean, the one takeaway for everybody is performance reviews include did you do your and? I mean, it’s that simple. That’s it. The objective, the goals for this next 6 months also include something that you enjoy doing. And I love it. That’s so fantastic. This has been so, so great, Lynne, but I feel like it was rude of me to pepper you with so many questions at the beginning. So it’s only fair that I turn the tables and will make this the first episode of The Lynne Titley Podcast.

Lynne: Oh, I know. I know.

John: Right. There you go. So I’m all yours. You’re the host.

Lynne: Cool. All right. Okay. And what I’ve got for you is being a Brit, tea or coffee? I wanna know.

John: Oh, tea. I skipped the coffee train. Like I never got on coffee train. Like I never got it. And I do enjoy tea. So, tea for certain.

Lynne: I didn’t see that coming. I thought it was gonna be coffee. Fabulous. Okay.

John: I’ll surprise you.

Lynne: I’ve got a musical one. Air guitar or air drums?

John: Oh, wow. That’s a good one. That’s a good one ’cause I feel like I’m better at air guitar, but air drums is so fun.

I mean, it’s just like how many symbols do you have 14? You’re like what are you doing over here? I mean, it’s just like an octopus of like “Wow! Like I got symbols on top, symbols behind me. Like I got drums over here and like I got all kinds of—” Yeah. I mean, like I just imagine almost like a double drum kit where it’s just like stuff everywhere. So it’s just so much more fun to just like— Yeah, air drum, I guess.

Lynne: So you’re better at air guitar.

John: Yeah. Oh, Lynne, trust me, I practiced. Well, it’s more realistic. I think the air guitar—It just looks more realistic. But the drums, it’s just like so much. Yeah. You can go nuts with that ’cause, you know, you can’t see my drum kit. You don’t know. Yeah. I do have a bass drum up above me. What’s wrong with that, kids?

Lynne: We totally don’t know. We don’t know. Oh, you’re amazing at air drums, John. Amazing. Okay. This slightly longer. I can explain. You are getting a takeaway with friends, right? Like a Chinese, or a Curry, or something.

John: Oh, yeah.

Lynne: Share or not share?

John: No. No. No. You order what you wanted and I order what I wanted. And if you wanted what I got, you should order that. It’s that simple.

Lynne: You’re hard over on it.

John: Hard no. Hard no. Even if I’m eating with Hugh Jackman, still a hard no. Like hard no on that.

Lynne: Hugh Jackman ain’t getting your curry, dude.

John: Nope. None. Like not at all.

Lynne: Brilliant.

John: Yeah, absolutely. Well, this has been so much fun, Lynne. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”?

Lynne: Me too. Loved it. Absolutely loved it. Thanks.

John: Awesome. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Lynne jamming or connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 511 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. It goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and now listening to it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Josh Standley. He’s the CEO of DKK DKK Accounting in Duluth, Minnesota. And now, he’s with me today. Josh, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Josh: Thanks for having me, John.

John: Oh, this is gonna be a blast. I don’t know enough at all about 3D printing, and I am super excited, and I’m probably gonna order one right after we’re done talking. So, you get a commission. But first, I have 17 rapid fire questions. Get to know Josh on a new level here. I’ll start you out with a— This is gonna be a slam dunk. Star Wars or star Trek?

Josh: Definitely Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. There you go. And a favorite character in particular?

Josh: I’d say Boba Fett and The Mandalorian. Probably my two favorites.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Very much. How about your computer? More of a PC or a Mac?

Josh: I like Mac personally. But for work, it’s gotta be a PC.

John: Yeah. So, a little bit of both? That’s impressive, man.

Josh: Yeah.

John: That’s impressive. How about your ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Josh: Oh, it depends on the cone.

John: Ah.

Josh: And depends on the ice cream.

John: Yes! You’re a professional. I like this.

Josh: I got this chocolate on chocolate with chocolate. Oh, it’s delicious.

John: Oh, wow. So it’s like a chocolate cone with chocolate dipped?

Josh: Yeah. It’s got like fudge in it. It’s kinda like Oreo crumbles.

John: Oh, wow. Yeah.

Josh: It’s just amazing.

John: That’s some next level stuff right there. Like you could almost skip the ice cream.

Josh: Yeah.

John: Like “Sir, are you okay?” “I’m totally okay. It’s awesome.” You got chocolate all over your face.

Josh: Will buy one and I’ll eat like two a night sometimes.

John: Right. Right. There you go.

Josh: Don’t judge me.

John: I love it, man. So good. How about would you say more oceans or mountains?

Josh: I kinda like both. I’ve always wanted a cabin near a mountain on the ocean, which is kind of like— Duluth is kind of like that where I live.

John: Right. With the Great Lakes. Absolutely up there. Yeah. Totally, man. I love that. Okay. How about more balance sheet or income statement?

Josh: Ooh, I like the income statement. I just like analyzing it I think. I don’t know why.

John: Sure. Yeah. I feel like there’s a lot more ratios and stuff that you can play with there. Yeah, definitely. HOW about a TV show that you would binge watch of all time? It could be any time.

Josh: Oh, Parks and Recreation is definitely one of ’em.

John: Yeah. Solid answer. There you go. Solid answer. That show is so good. So good. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Josh: I don’t like any.

John: None. Okay. Right. Accounting is enough puzzle for me.

Josh: No. If you like puzzles, you would be like working on cars. It’s a puzzle.

John: Oh, okay. That is very much a puzzle.

Josh: 3D printing is like a puzzle ’cause you have all the different axles you have to coordinate to work together, so that’s more mechanical puzzles.

John: Yeah. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Or a picture that we’re gonna put together and then tear apart to put it back in the box. It’s like “Why are we doing this? How about we just skip it and put it right in the box? How’s that sound?”

Josh: The picture’s already complete on the box.

John: Right. Right? Right? There you go. How about a favorite color?

Josh: Blue.

John: Blue. Mine too. How about a least favorite color?

Josh: Anything super neon bright.

John: Ah, okay. That’s a good answer. How about favorite day of the week?

Josh: Actually, surprisingly, Mondays. I look forward to going to work.

John: Okay.

Josh: It’s not like work to me. It’s like a hobby I get paid for. I just jump from the thing I like to a thing I like.

John: Well, you’re living a good life, man. That’s how it’s supposed to be. Right? And it’s not all one thing, which is super cool too. You know, it’s several things.

Josh: I just gotta find a little more balance, this issue, ’cause it’s usually one polar end of the opposite. I’m still working on it. Once I find that balance, I think it’s gonna be great.

John: How about a favorite actor or actress?

Al Pacino. That’s a solid answer. There you go. How about a favorite cereal of all time?

Josh: I think Kix has been one of my favorites.

John: Oh, yeah!

Josh: Eating it dry too is just delicious. Yeah. That’s like a midnight snack, you know.

John: There you go. There you go. We got four more. For your books, more audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Josh: Real book. Always real book.

John: Real book.

Josh: Dealing with the computer all day. I want something tangible that I can sit somewhere quiet.

John: True. Good for your eyes. How about a least favorite vegetable?

Josh: That’s a hard one. I like a lot of vegetables.

John: Okay.

Josh: Lima bean.

John: Oh, there it is. Something rare out there then. Okay. All right. How about a favorite number?

Josh: 7.

John: 7. Mine too. Is there a reason?

Josh: Lucky #7. I think that’s about it I guess.

John: No, no, that works for me. It’s the most popular answer by far on here that I get. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Josh: Right now is my Boba Fett stuff.

John: Right, right. Is it like full-on head-to-toe costume?

Josh: Yup. I’m gonna be Boba Fett for Halloween. I’m gonna make an Ironman next. The full Ironman getup ’cause you can print it for like nothing.

John: Yeah, which leads right into talking about 3D printing. And how did that get started? ‘Cause, clearly, it wasn’t something you were doing as a kid.

Josh: I always wanted to be a mechanical engineer at one point in my life, and I just didn’t wanna do as much math. Believe it or not, accounting was easier to get a degree and then going to be a mechanical engineer. So I liked the way things work and move. And so, I ordered a full Boba Fett costume, which cost quite a pretty penny. And I’ve always wanted a 3D printer. And then I saw watching videos and stuff. I’m like I could have made this costume for like 300 bucks instead of spending three grand on it. And so, I ordered a 3D printer, and I’ve just been hooked. Now, I got three.

John: So you got the Boba Fett costume and a 3D printer, so like you doubled the—

Josh: Three.

John: Three 3D printers. Okay.

Josh: And then I went and bought 3darmory.com, which isn’t live yet because I need to wait to write off my hobby. So I plan to make money at it, but I don’t care if I make a ton of money. Just enough to break even and allow me to print stuff.

John: That’s awesome.

Josh: Yeah.

John: Can you 3D print a 3D printer?

Josh: Yes, technically, but there’s still metal components and stuff you’d have to put—

John: Okay. Okay. So like the box itself or whatever. I mean, maybe I’ve seen like some videos or whatever where somebody takes like a chunk of plastic and then all of a sudden it’s like whatever comes out.

Josh: You create almost anything you can imagine.

John: That’s awesome. And so, is it like a program on the computer that you basically do the drafting of and then spit it out to the computer just like you print a piece of paper?

Josh: There’s all kinds of free files. You can just get free files and use the file. Then you have to put that into a software. And then that like puts the lines ’cause we were basically printing lines on top of lines. So you could just grab a file and print. The hardest part is learning to like get all the axes to coordinate. Right?

John: Yeah.

Josh: But if you wanna do 3D modeling, then you have to have a different software where you actually build, but I mean like you can literally create anything.

John: That’s awesome, man. I would just be printing nonstop. And it’s something that you have in your office there at DKK Accounting

Josh: Yeah. They’re sitting in the office. I actually sold couches to make more room for the 3D printers in the waiting area.

John: Love it!

Josh: But you know, everybody “Hey, what’s that?” And then I get to sit and show ’em like “Hey, I’m making an Ironman outfit.” And they’re like “Oh, my kid would love that.” And you know, I’m hoping I can build the whole costume and maybe go to the cancer ward and show up as Ironman and make someone’s day. Like it just a fun thing to do, you know.

John: Yeah. Or just go grocery shop. Like why not, man? Forget make my kids’ day. It makes my husband’s day. It makes everyone’s day. It’s like “That’s awesome, man.” Like just start high fiving people.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah.

John: I love it, man. That’s really cool. That’s really cool. And so, I guess it’s mostly focused on like Boba Fett and Ironman type of things that you’re printing?

Josh: Right now, yeah. There’s other things that— tool holders. So like Milwaukee impact gun, you can make a tool holder or a battery holder. I’m gonna print something that takes the Milwaukee battery, connects it. And I’m gonna use that to connect the power to the suit. So like it’s not just printing too. I mean, it’s wiring and diagramming. And so, there’s just like this never ending deep dive into this fun hobby basically.

John: Yeah. No. I love it. That’s super awesome, man. It’s also awesome that it’s something that you share at work with clients and with coworkers. Was there ever a part of you that was like “No, one’s gonna care, I shouldn’t talk about it”?

Josh: I just put it in the office.

John: You didn’t even think about it.

You were like “Nope, this is it.”

Josh: You know, I got the helmet in there. It just immediately started opening up people. “Oh, is that the Star Wars helmet?” It’s created conversation just having the helmet in the office. And now, with the 3D printer, it’s like people are way more interested in that than they care about picking up their taxes, you know.

John: Right. Right. And why do you think that is?

Josh: People want a connection. I mean, it happens to be that you do some kind of service for them. But really, what they’re paying for is the relationship and the quality of service you give someone. You can get the same thing done anywhere else. So what are you really paying for? This my philosophy anyways.

John: Yeah, no, you’re totally right. I mean, 99.9% of all of our jobs are a commodity. I mean, there’s somewhere else that does the exact same thing. And so, to hang our hat on “we’re the best because we’re really good at what we do”, well, so is this place down the street. Like who is not good that they wouldn’t be in business anymore, you know? And so, the differentiator is the guy with the Boba Fett helmet and the 3D printer and is waiting area.

Josh: I think it really comes down to how you treat people. I mean, I think the bigger business gets the more away they are from the customer. And they don’t realize like the people probably who should be paid the most are the people dealing with your customers because that’s where all the money comes from. And if they’re not building those relationships, then they’re gonna go somewhere where someone’s going to give them that relationship. Just my philosophy.

John: No, that’s an excellent point. You’re totally right. And it’s more than just doing a good job and having sound technical skills. It’s the other things actually is what they’re paying for.

Josh: The soft skills I think they call it. Right?

John: Yeah. Yeah. Interpersonal skills, what have you, yeah.

Josh: You can teach someone to do the technical stuff, but you can’t always teach someone to do that part of it.

John: Amen, man. And I think it’s becoming harder to find those every day. It’s crazy. And you just care, you know. It’s simple, but not easy. For some reason, just care and then everything good comes from that.

Josh: Agreed.

John: And so, do you feel at all like 3D printing gives you a skillset or something that you bring to work? Like is there any of it that translates over either as it’s a complete reprieve from work, so it’s super cool to unplug and do something that’s fun that you’re energized about or is it something that, wow, these are similar skillsets that kind of overlap from the 3D printing world to the DKK Accounting world?

Josh: I think it’s more of a relaxed thing. I mean, it’s a nice conversation piece. It wasn’t my intention for it to be that. It just has become that, which is cool to know that other people have— You know, it opens up the conversation. It brings in the relationship, which is great, because half the fun is being able to get to know people and help them. But yeah, I just did it because I wanted to do it and I came down to it. I just decided to—

John: No, totally. It’s what’s been interesting from doing so many interviews, is how you’re doing it for the pure joy of you enjoy doing it. But oftentimes, there’s an accidental byproduct of, wow, there’s a lot of Star Wars fans out here. Wow, there’s a lot of Ironman fans out here. Wow, there’s a lot of people that have no clue about 3D printing and are just fascinated by it. And so, you know, you’re able to create these conversations and create these connections with people that are so much deeper and richer than if you were just really good at accounting, and then they came in and you gave them their financials, and then they left.

Josh: Even people who really don’t care about Star Wars or anything, they’re still interested in the 3D printer. Like what’s that? What’s it doing? You know?

John: Right? Exactly. So I think that’s what’s so cool about it is, you know, there’s always an extra thing that your and gives you beyond the intrinsic joy for yourself. There’s always something that creates a relatability factor at work, which matters, you know. Because at the end of the day, your firm is dealing with a business, but it’s still a human-to-human connection that happens, so you gotta nurture that. And I think that’s super cool, man. And I think it’s great that you brought it right in. You’re like “Look, I’m not even just gonna tell you about it. I’m gonna show you it’s right here. It’s running right now.”

Josh: It’s right in the waiting room. Too many people wait. You know, these people schedule appointments. So I’m like I’m gonna sell the big couches and I’m gonna make a little more room for my 3D printer cause there’s wasted space.

John: And then they have to walk by it. They see it. What is this? Oh, well, let me tell you. And you know, that’s great, man. I think that’s awesome. And then before 3D printing, was there something else that maybe you were able to create connections with people on or is 3D printing kind of the thing that sort of just kicked the door open on this?

Josh: It’s kicked the door open since I’ve done this for sure. I think it might be a different knickknack in the office or just something in conversation, you know. I think you can always find something to relate to somebody by because we all have similar experiences.

That’s just my experience. You know, I like people. I’ve tried a lot of things before accounting that I’ve been able to bring into accounting. Like I didn’t know working at a retail clothing store would benefit me owning an accounting firm, but it sure did. You know, like it’s great. I don’t know.

John: Yeah. And I love how you said too just having a knack or having something in your office that you see it, it brings you joy, but it’s also a little bit of an opportunity for someone to ask about, you know. And so, showing just a little bit of your humanness lets people wanna glob on to that, so that’s kind of where it starts. I guess you just have something small in your office and then let people ask about it and then see what happens. I think for people that are listening that are like “Well, how do I do this”, it’s like, well just bring something in.

Josh: You have to find some common ground between and you gotta build. Trust is earned, not given. And I just slowly build it over time. You get really deep, great relationships. I mean, we’ve had generations of families.

John: Nice.

Josh: I haven’t seen all the generations, but I’ve seen the tail end of the new generations coming in that the families continue to come, and you just get to know these people. And it’s a great feeling. Sometimes you’re like I don’t wanna see people.

John: Yeah. But I mean, it’s cool just to know that like you’re creating that connection and you’re touching people in a way that makes them wanna keep coming back and share it with others. And it’s that humanness that we often forget about with AI, and tech, and all these fancy things. It’s like, yeah, but we still gotta be human.

Josh: I think the AI and tech is great. It should give you more time to give you that customer service and that relationship. That’s where the power is because you can have something automate everything, but you still need someone to translate it.

John: Right. And have some empathy or be able to, yeah, tell someone in a way that’s—

Josh: That they understand because not everybody learns the same way. As a tutor in college, if they don’t understand this way, you have to explain it in a different way. And so, most of what I do is that now. It’s less of the work and it’s more of the relationship, and it’s great. I don’t know. I love it.

John: No. What what’s cool to hear too is all these different back stories to who you are, that play into DKK Accounting now. You know, the retail work, being a tutor, tinkering with mechanical things. You know, all these things that they all come together and make you better at your job. And if any of those you were to leave outside the office or act like they don’t exist or whatever, then you’re not gonna be as good. And so, I love that, man. So many great examples that you’ve dropped just in conversation where it’s like “What?! Yeah! That’s cool.”

Josh: I think too many people try to be the person that they want the person to— I’m saying it wrong, but try to perceive you as this way. But realistically, you win when you’re yourself at the end of the day.

John: Yes. I love that man.

Josh: Depending on who I’m with, you know, I work with a lot of construction people, we might swear because that’s just common in the construction industry. And you’re gonna relate to them in a way that, you know, you be your more self in certain aspects with other people.

John: I remember when I started at PWC right out of school and I walk in and there was a partner that— I mean, I don’t think he could say two sentences without a swear word being in there. And I was like “What?!” It’s like it doesn’t matter. Like it doesn’t matter. Like it’s not like, you know, one is less professional or less whatever. It’s just it’s who you are. All right. Cool. You know? And he’s a partner. So clearly, he was okay.

Josh: Look at Gary Vaynerchuk. He swears all the time. But you know, he has great things to say. I mean, he’s authentic. I think that’s what it comes down to.

John: Right. And if it’s your cup of tea, then great. If it’s not, also great

Josh: Could be your wrong client. It’s not your ideal client.

John: Maybe somebody’s really anti-Boba Fett. Okay, I’m not your guy. Like I’m not your guy.

Josh: We got someone else for you. Don’t worry.

John: Right. Exactly. Some Spock-type person. What?! But no, I love it, man. This is so awesome. And so, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe has an and that they feel like no one’s gonna care about ’cause it has nothing to do with my job?

Josh: It shouldn’t matter what someone else cares about. You should do what makes you happy, and everything else will follow.

John: Yes.

Josh: I think people get in their minds that— I love the John Lennon quote. The teacher said, “What do you wanna be when you grow up?” And he says, “Happy.” And the teacher is like “You don’t understand the assignment.” He’s like “You don’t understand life.” Life is that simple I think.

John: Yeah. Simple, but not easy.

Josh: You know, it’s hard. Yeah.

John: Yeah. I mean, the simpler that you want it to be, the harder it is. Our minds and everything. But that’s so rich, man. That’s so good. So this has been so much fun and I might need to go get a 3D printer now before you buy a fourth one, but I feel like it’s only fair since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning that we turn it around and make it The Josh Standley Podcast, and I’m all yours. So whatever you wanna ask, fire away.

Josh: If you have a superhero power, would it be flying or invisibility and why?

John: Oh, wow.

Josh: We did this in a psychology class and it got super deep. It was really fun.

John: Yeah. That’s a good one. Like I feel like flying would be just like awesome because then you could just fly. I’m gonna go flying, I think, yeah. ‘Cause invisibility I feel like could be used for evil.

Josh: So can flying maybe.

John: Yeah. Well, I guess that’s true too, but I feel like flying is more of like, well, this is cool, but then I can go places and I can go see things, travel, and all that stuff. So yeah, I’ll go flying.

Josh: Cool.

John: Hopefully, that means that we can still be friends. I don’t know what the deep rooted psychological thing of that is, but—

Josh: I don’t remember. It just became this huge like 2 days in the class we just talked about it. It was just super fun.

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh: And people just analyze and picked it up apart. I don’t really know.

John: Yeah. No, that’s a good question though for sure.

Josh: So my next one is would you rather have a cabin or a mansion?

John: Oh, a cabin. Yeah. Cabin like just unplugged just out there. Just, I mean, cabins can still be nice that’s for sure. But a mansion is like, man, that’s a lot of. You gotta clean it and like all the— like sort of windows a wash.

Josh: I thought about that.

John: I mean, you would assume that you have someone to do it for you if you own a mansion, but I’m sure I wouldn’t.

Josh: You can get a mansion in Minnesota for like 2-3 million, which is like a regular house in California. But if you had a mansion, like you would have to have staff to clean it. It would just get dusty in parts. You wouldn’t use like 90% of it. That’s crazy to think about.

John: Exactly. It just seems wasteful. The cabin, out in nature, just unplug and just go veg out. And I would fly there naturally.

Josh: Yeah. It goes into my next question. Would you rather drive or fly?

John: You know, and that is a really good question.

Josh: Both are great.

John: Yeah. Both are great. And you know, the driving is to see the journey and blah, blah, but sometimes the journey’s far.

Josh: Yeah.

John: Like I’m not driving to Costa Rica. Like I’m flying. Like one overnight, I’ll drive and it will be not annoying. But anything longer than that, it’s like I’m flying. I mean, unless it’s gonna be a road trip where we circle around and hit a bunch of places. But yeah, if we’re going to one place, then let’s get there and yeah. Maybe I’ll sit in the window seat so I can look out a little bit and we’ll combine it.

Josh: Might depend who you’re traveling with too. That makes a difference if you’re stuck in a car for days.

John: That’s a good point. Yeah. Yeah. But I did a ton of driving when I did standup full time. I had like a ton of driving. So I’ve certainly put in my driving time to even that out, so yeah. Well, this has been so much fun, Josh, having you be a part of What’s Your “And”? Thanks so much for taking time to do this.

Josh: And thanks for having me, man. This is great.

John: Everybody, if you wanna see some pictures of what Josh has been printing or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything is there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 509 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work, the who else are you kind of question.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. It was so kind of The Independent Press Awards to name it a Distinguished Favorite a couple of months ago. And the book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and listening to it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and Goodreads, and more importantly changing the cultures where they work because of it. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest Tonya Moffitt. She’s the managing partner at Merina + Co outside of Portland, Oregon. And now, she’s with me here today. Tonya, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Tonya: Thanks, John. I’m super excited.

John: This is gonna be a blast, so much fun. But before we get started, I have 17 rapid fire questions. Get to know Tonya out of the gates. And here we go. So this probably an easy one. Favorite color?

Tonya: Black.

John: Oh, okay. All right.

Tonya: It goes with everything

John: It does. It does. How about a least favorite color?

Tonya: Pink.

John: Yeah, it does not go with everything. That’s for sure. Do you prefer more talk or text?

Tonya: Talk. My friends make fun of me ’cause I always call them. I don’t text very often.

John: They send a text to you and then you call ’em.

Tonya: Yes.

John: Right. That’s great.

Tonya: Or FaceTime them. Yeah.

John: Yeah. Let’s get it done. I don’t want this back and forthness. I got it. Yeah. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Tonya: Reese Witherspoon. I think she’s amazing on screen as well as she’s an advocate for several children and women’s advocacies.

John: Yeah. Her production company is awesome and the work that they do there. And yeah, it’s really cool.

Tonya: And her books too. Like she has a book club. And so, I love it when you can discuss amazing books and bring people together around that.

John: No, that’s perfect. I love it. How about Sudoku, or crossword, or maybe jigsaw puzzle?

Tonya: Sudoku.

John: Sudoku. Yeah. That’s how I do my taxes actually. No, I’m just kidding.

Tonya: Same. Same. CPAs can’t their own taxes.

John: Right? That’s what I tell people. I’m one of the coolest CPAs that has no clue how taxes work. That gets that all.

Tonya: Same.

John: How about a favorite animal? Any animal

Tonya: Horse.

John: Horse, solid answer. There you go. Yeah, growing up on the ranch I guess goes back to that.

Tonya: Yeah. Exactly. Some of my best friends were my horses.

John: No, I can believe that for sure. How about a favorite movie of all time?

Tonya: Oh, man. I don’t know that I have a favorite. So my husband and I met working at a movie theater. So I have watched like every single movie.

John: So you’ve seen a ton. Yeah.

Tonya: Yeah. And probably heard or watched multiple movies way more times than somebody should watch the same movie over and over again.

John: Right. That’s funny. In college, I worked at the movie theater on campus, and it was in like a lecture hall that then turned into a movie theater for Friday and Saturday night. It was the reel to reel. There’s a little mark that ends up— like that I can’t unsee now when I watch movies at a movie theater. You start the other projector and it flips over, and it’s crazy. I mean, it’s so funny how no one sees this little mark.

Tonya: Or if like the film gets burned back when you did have film. And then you’d cut out feet of the movie and nobody would know.

John: Right. Right. Exactly. You gotta splice it together and then it’s like “Well, whatever. We’ll see.”

Tonya: It’s fine. It’s fine.

John: Yeah. Or if you aren’t paying attention on the time and then it’s like ch-ch-ch-ch-ch, it’s like “Oh, my bad, everybody.” And then you like run in the back and like—

Tonya: Yes.

John: That’s so great. Wow, that’s super funny. And like a really small percentage of people that are still following, but back on track here, John. Focus. How about a favorite number?

Tonya: 10.

John: 10, solid. Solid. Is there a reason?

Tonya: Just because I think most scales are 1 to 10, and I think that 10s always look good. Right?

John: Okay.

Tonya: Typically.

John: Okay.

Tonya: Yeah.

John: I’m gonna tell that to all the 1 people. I mean like, you know, 10.

Tonya: Just strive to get to the 10.

John: Right. Right. There you go. How about books? Audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Tonya: So audio and real book.

Like your book, I have the physical copy as well as the audiobook, and then I go back and forth.

John: Wow! Thank you so much.

Tonya: I go back and forth.

John: But not at the same time.

Tonya: Yeah.

John: It’s just listening. Oh, at the same

Tonya: I do.

John: Oh, okay.

Tonya: I’ll listen to it, and then I’ll pick up the book where I left off, and then I’ll like fast forward to that part on the audiobook—

John: Oh, got it.

Tonya: …’cause I like physically having it and I like being able to listen to it like while I’m driving or cleaning the house.

John: That’s awesome. Very cool. And thank you. That means a lot. All right. And it’s me reading it.

Tonya: Yeah, it’s awesome.

John: Okay. All right. I was like I don’t know how that lands. What’s a typical breakfast?

Tonya: Right now, I’m doing a diet. And so, protein shakes.

John: Oh, okay. There you go. That works.

Tonya: Yeah.

John: Very good. They’re a lot more filling than I anticipated when I randomly accidentally have one.

Tonya: And I was a skip breakfast kind of gal before that, drink 10 cups of coffee, so this is much better.

John: Oh, that’s definitely a big step in the right direction for sure. Oh, since you have the accounting background, this will be fun. And then you’re not a tax person, so this is even better. Balance sheet or income statement?

Tonya: Both.

John: Oh, full trial balance for you. I need it at all.

Tonya: Yeah. ‘Cause I like the point in time, but I also need to know where we were at and how we got there with the income statement.

John: Yeah. What are you hiding?

Tonya: Yeah.

John: You can’t just plug goodwill for everything. Right?

Tonya: Exactly.

John: Oh, toilet paper roll, over or under?

Tonya: Over. Under are psychopaths.

John: That’s hilarious. You’re over at someone’s house and you see it’s under, you’re like “We gotta go.”

Tonya: Yeah. We gotta change this.

John: “Take the kids. We’re out.”

Tonya: In our office, we actually have two rolls in every bathroom. And one is one way and one is the other way. Yeah, we’re all inclusive on our toilet paper roll.

John: That’s part of the new DEIA initiative.

Tonya: Yeah, exactly.

John: Yeah. But are your toilet paper rolls both ways? Okay. That’s beautiful. That’s so great. I’m gonna start asking that actually. That’s great. How about your computer, PC or a Mac?

Tonya: PC. I’m lost on Macs.

John: Same. Oh, I’m an ice cream junkie. So when you get ice cream, cup or cone?

Tonya: Waffle cone.

John: Oh, okay. Springing for the upgrade. All right.

Tonya: Yeah. Definitely.

John: And yeah, just because it’s fun, Star Wars or Star Trek?

Tonya: Star Wars. Again, going back to the movie theater days, like watching movies before they were out, like a week before and there’s literally people camping in front of the movie theater a week before, and we’re inside with like pizzas and beverages.

John: So good. So good. I got two more. Socks or shoes?

Tonya: Socks.

John: That’s a tricky one, right?

Tonya: Yeah. It probably depends on when and where.

John: Yeah. But socks are always fun. That works. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Tonya: Probably all of my family history and heirlooms that I’ve received. So like from almost all of my great grandmas, I have their candy dish ’cause I remember as a child going to their house, and they’d always have like ribbon candy and things. I’m definitely dating myself, but it just brings good memories and like it’s just something that I hold near and dear, is family heirlooms.

John: Yeah. My great grandpa always used to have the little peppermints. And so, every time I see him, I mean, I just remember that about him. And for sure, that’s really awesome. Very cool. So let’s talk all-terrain vehicles and how’d you get started with this?

Tonya: Well, essentially, growing up on our cattle ranch, we had 4 wheelers and 3 wheelers, which are super, super dangerous. And so, that’s kind of how we got started. I remember one time we were taking out what’s called a salt lick. For those of you that don’t know what it is, it’s like a giant salt block, like a foot by a foot. Think like giant— bigger than a basketball. So we are taking out salt licks to some of like basically fields for the animals because then they can get minerals and things when they’re free ranging. And we were on a 4 wheeler. So it was my brother, my stepbrother, my stepsister, and I. And we’re flying. We’re going very fast ’cause the faster we get this done, the sooner we can go back and play, or ride horses, or do whatever. And we come around a corner and that was the first time we had been on the road since the winter, and the road was washed out. Like, I mean, we’re talking like trench. Like I knew we were gonna wreck ’cause there was no way to stop that quickly on the old gravel dirt road.

John: Sure.

Tonya: And so, I grabbed my stepsister and I kind of like rolled/like jumped off of the 4 wheeler. And it rolled on top of my brother and stepbrother. And I was able to lift it off of them, but like that adrenaline rush— And of course, we weren’t wearing helmets back then. Now, we do. Now, we know that that’s unsafe and we wear helmets.

John: We didn’t even own helmets back then. Like they didn’t even make ’em for kids.

Tonya: Exactly. Exactly. But we all survived and we got the salt licks out there.

But yeah, that was probably the first time that, you know, a very vivid memory of being on a 4 wheeler.

John: But that adrenaline rush of I wanna do this more without the flipping part of it, but yeah. And it was either become a stunt woman or a CPA and then do this on the side, so wise choice. So now, how does it play out?

Tonya: So I think over the years, it’s changed a little bit. And so, that was back on dirt roads and out in the country. And now, we go to the sand dunes. And so, here in Oregon, we have sand dunes. There’s some in like Idaho, all over the place.

John: And it’s along the ocean, right?

Tonya: Yes.

John: Along the Pacific. Yeah.

Tonya: In Oregon, it’s along the ocean. We do have some that are more towards central Oregon and places. So there are some that are not along the ocean, but where we primarily go, it is along the Pacific Coast. And so, we have been very fortunate that we’ve met some of like our best friends. We have a sand family. That’s what we call each other.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah.

Tonya: A sand family. And we go with them as often as we can. And you know, the best part about it is we have these other family members now that are not blood related, but they do anything for us. And like my husband, one of our best friends that we’ve met doing this, he met them at school drop off. So he was chatting while he was waiting for the kids to come out of school with another dad and turned out that they liked to go to the dunes as well. And so, I think about a week later, we had a 5th wheel and we’re headed there ourselves. With my husband, Chris, I can’t ever say “Well, maybe we should” because then it will happen. So I have to be prepared for that it will happen if—

John: That’s awesome.

Tonya: …I say okay. Or if there’s an inkling of it being okay, then it will happen.

John: That’s hilarious. That’s so great. And so, now, it’s kind of a little more substantial than the 4 wheelers, right? Sort of side by side kind of concept.

Tonya: Yeah. So now, we have all-terrain vehicles and we’ve had RZRs in the past, which is made by Polaris. And we are waiting for a Speed UTV, which is created by Robby Gordon. And so, they’re brand new machines, which we thought we were gonna have a lot sooner. But with the supply chain shortage, hopefully we will get our new UTV soon-ish.

John: That’s super fun. But I mean it, you could only drive them on the sand dunes. I guess they’re not really—

Tonya: No. They’re not street legal here in Oregon. But in Washington State, you can make them street legal. And there’s other states where they can be street legal like if you put blinkers on them and like mirrors and stuff. So it depends on each individual state if you can ride them on the street or not.

John: Yeah. Here in Denver, I don’t think anyone uses their blinker anyway even though they have them. So I’m not sure if that’s mandatory, but whatever. But that’s really neat. And so, do you have like some fond memories or some favorite rides that you’ve done?

Tonya: Yeah. We’ve done a lot of really fun memories. And you know, I think the best thing for me is that the kids get unplugged. Right? So my husband and I have two children, 11-year-old son and a 14-year-old daughter. And they are attached to their devices. I mean, we are too, but they are as well. And so, being able to go places where there’s no internet, we went on a trip in Wyoming and went and visited some friends back there. And we rented a cabin, a national forest, like forest service cabin. And we parked at the bottom and drove our RZRs up to the cabin. The other family has one too.

And like there’s no internet, no cell phones. The kids thought they were dying and they were like back in the 1800s, but I’d say that’s one of my favorite memories just ’cause we saw all sorts of animals and critters, gotta go chop down wood. And you know, it was a unique experience. My son was on a top bunk and fell out in the middle of the night, and we all heard this like huge crash.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Tonya: You know, we still talk about that today. Like half the kids stayed asleep and didn’t even hear it. And all of us adults are like “Now, we can’t get back to sleep.” You know?

John: That’s amazing, but so much fun. That unplugging I think is really key. I mean, not just to show your kids, but even for yourself. Just something that’s totally different than work at all. And when you’re out on those things, I mean, you really have to focus. I mean, you can’t be sort of half thinking about work or, yeah, you’re gonna end up upside down again. And so, do you feel like any of this—maybe it’s growing up on the ranch or the altering vehicles— gives you a skill or a mindset that you bring to work?

Tonya: Yeah. I think the biggest thing is planning. So in order for us to be able to unplug while I am going on these vacations, and going to the sand dunes, and riding our UTVs and ATVs, it’s planning ahead. And so, letting my team know. So, you know, communicating with them that I’m gonna be gone and that I’m gonna be unplugged and not available.

And so, just making sure that I get everything that’s mission critical done before I leave. That doesn’t mean I get everything done ’cause I don’t know about you, but I always still have a to-do list. But it’s getting those mission critical things done before I go and making sure that my team has people they can reach out to while I’m gone. So I think that’s a huge one. I haven’t found anybody in my industry that does the same hobby, but people still ask me about it. So I think that’s great.

John: Which is great. You know, I mean I did comedy. I mean, it’s not like I was bumping into comedians all the time in corporate either. A bunch of people thought they were and they were terrible. I think that that’s almost— I don’t wanna say better, but it’s stronger because that’s the one. If you said golf or something that was kind of almost generic, then it’s like “Well, whatever. I mean, so does everyone else.” But you know, the UTV is like “Well, hey, yeah, what’s going on? When’s your next trip?” And that’s cool that people ask.

Tonya: Yeah. People ask. I also put it on my out of office. So like if I’m gone, I put it on my out of office. And part of that is I think there’s a stigma around taking vacation, unfortunately in corporate culture, especially for CPAs. Like most people think of us as nerds, but like there’s a stigma around taking a vacation, unplugging. And so, I’ll put like I’m going on vacation to do X, Y, or Z just because I want it to be normalized. Like we do need to unplug and do these things that we’re passionate about and like recharge our batteries, right, so that we come back and we’re a better team member and more productive.

John: No, I love that. That’s a great idea and something everyone listening can do right now whenever they do have their next break or what have you. And like you said, being more productive earlier where it’s getting those mission critical things done, then you know you can’t procrastinate. You know you can’t just kind of dillydally around ’cause “Well, I’ll get it done tomorrow.” No, no, tomorrow I’m gone. So, you know, I have to really focus and be all in now. I would argue you’re more productive taking breaks, as well as coming back refreshed and energized, and things like that as well.

Tonya: Yeah. I would completely agree with that.

John: Good. ‘Cause otherwise the show’s over. No, I’m just kidding. Totally kidding. Totally joking. But it’s also cool that you talk about it. Is it something that you’ve always shared or— ‘Cause sometimes people get in their own heads about, well, I don’t know if I’m allowed or whatever.

Tonya: Yeah. So I’m a very open person. And so, I talk about everything because I think that it makes people more comfortable around me. And even if they’re not sharing necessarily back with me, they feel more comfortable around me. And so, I do. I’ve shared this with my team. I have pictures in my office. I have pictures on my screen, on my computer. I even sometimes put it on my background, my virtual background, like in Teams meetings or Zoom now that we’re in a virtual world because it’s a conversation starter. And you know, “What is that? What are you doing?” You know? And so, it’s an icebreaker. It can be an icebreaker to break down barriers with either potential clients or even with team members.

John: Or current clients even.

Tonya: Yeah.

John: And why does that matter so much?

Tonya: You know, for me, I think it’s because those deep connections, it doesn’t matter. Nobody does what I do anyway, this riding on the sand dunes, but then they usually will open up and share it with me, what’s their end and what they’re passionate about. And then the nice thing is is that we have that connection and we have that deeper relationship where I’ve became friends with some of my former clients or current clients that are not a test client for any of you listening that know about the independence roles.

John: Right, right, right.

Tonya: You just have a deeper relationship. And I think that the trust is there way faster when you can open up, even with team members.

John: Totally. Yeah. ‘Cause, I mean, that’s the thing. I mean, there’s even brain science behind it, you know. I mean, in order to get the oxytocin, which is where trust happens, you have to be around someone. You have to talk to them more. So you have to be interesting. I mean, you can’t just talk about gas prices forever, or the weather, or whatever. It’s like you have to be interesting. And so, you can’t call yourself a trusted advisor or whatever, any trusted whatever, which is like maybe my #2 pet peeve right behind shopping carts left in the parking lot randomly. But it’s like “Ah, you know, you’re an advisor advisor. You’re not really a trusted advisor.” You know? And it’s like knowing all the technical work isn’t— It’s the human side of things that you really have to bring to do that, which you’re doing, which is great. And so awesome to hear that it manifests itself in your world and that it’s legit. It works. For sure.

Tonya: Yeah. I think that when you can share those passions, it makes it a lot easier, especially in the workplace.

Like if you’re a supervisor, or a manager, or an owner, whatever, it’s helpful when you have to have those difficult conversations with your team because they have that deeper level connectivity and you can connect with them in another way. And so, it’s more like a friend. And I know you talk about the brain science behind this in your book and on the podcast, but it’s more like it’s coming from a friend. And so, it’s easier for them to understand and take that crucial conversation or difficult conversation that we may be having with them and see it for what it is. We’re trying to make them better. It’s not that we’re trying to like push them down or be derogatory. It’s all about actually bringing everybody up to a new level versus pushing somebody down.

John: No, I love that so much. That’s so fantastic. And I mean, you’re right. And the fact that you’re living it is even better in experiencing that, so that’s so cool. I mean, you’re the managing partner. How much does that matter that people do take time away from work? ‘Cause the logic, the old school brain is “Well, no, they need to be working more, like why are you even looking out the window” type of thing.

Tonya: You know, I think it’s so important. I think that mental health issues, especially during the pandemic, have been brought to light. And I think, as business owners, we have to lead by example and talk about mental health. We talk about our paid friends basically, you know, our paid counselors, psychiatrists, things like that because there’s so much of a stigma around it. And as the owners and the leaders of organizations, by us talking about it, it takes away some of that stigma. And so, it is much better for everybody on the team.

John: No, I couldn’t agree more, and I love that lead by example kind of concept. Certainly makes it easier for the people to look up and be like “Oh, you know—” But even if you’re like in the middle, you have a group below you that you can model that behavior for. So it doesn’t have to be the top down.

Tonya: Even if you’re at the bottom.

John: That’s true. Yeah.

Tonya: Even if you’re at the bottom, you have to have something outside of work that fills your cup up, that makes you happy because like getting the 3 letters behind your name or whatever it is in our industry at CPA, it’s not like the day you get your certificate. You’re happier. Yes, it’s great to get it done and have that behind you, but there’s so much more to each individual person. And even if you’re at the bottom, like it’s important that you have some sort of external and from your work. I don’t want my tombstone to read best boss ever, best CPA ever, you know. I want it to read mother, wife, friend, colleague, mentor. Those things are so much more important than a job title like managing partner or whatever that may be. Like that is not what defines me.

John: That’s so good. You know, having that and then sharing it is the key part of it. If everyone has hobbies, but no one talks about it, if a tree falls in the forest and no one’s around, sort of a concept. So that’s so great and such great wisdom and nuggets for people to take away and really, really great, Tonya. This has been awesome. I feel like though, since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, that I should turn the tables and make this the first episode of The Tanya Moffitt Podcast. Dududududududududu. I don’t know. Some kind of song.

Tonya: Perfect.

John: Right. So I’m all yours and what do you got for me?

Tonya: Okay. Do you have any suggestions for an individual who has determined their current employer or supervisors do not care about their and, and it’s impacting their motivation and happiness, so they’ve decided to seek a new opportunity? What interview questions can they ask to help them find a better fit where they’re gonna be more successful within their chosen profession?

John: Holy moly! This could be like a whole series of episodes. Wow! Yeah! I think that it’s totally okay to ask “How does the organization perceive outside of work hobbies and passions? I’m a big college football fan. Who else that works here is also a big college football fan?” It’s totally okay to ask that. And if they’re like “We don’t care, we don’t even know anyone who likes college football”, it doesn’t have to be a random one-off. Just something that’s kind of normal. And then if they respond negatively, well, then that’s just gonna be like the same place that you’re leaving. But if they’re like “Oh, this person over here” or if they ask you during the interview process before you even get there, that’s my favorite thing. If you’re having someone come in as an interview, who’s gonna host them? Not just a random other person in the department. No. No. Somebody who also rides UTVs. That’s who. And then now, you have a friend before you even started. Just straight up ask because in this day and age, we hold all the cards as an employee and so ask.

And if they don’t, then you know what, this isn’t the right place for me ’cause it’s gonna turn out to be exactly like the place that you’re leaving. And that’s why the great migration is happening, is because people are like “Well, if no one cares about me, I’ll just go to the place that doesn’t care about me, but pays me more.” If that’s the only differentiator, then of course they’re gonna move to whoever pays them more, and then they’re gonna be there for 3 months and then go to the next place that pays them more ’cause there’s always someone that’s gonna pay more. But if you change the game and if you actually care about them deeper and more than the next place, well, then they’re gonna realize that it’s not apples to apples. It’s apples to oranges, or grapefruit, or something gross no one likes to eat type of thing. It’s that sort of thing, so yeah, but really great question.

Tonya: I know.

John: It’s your show.

Tonya: This is my show and it’s all about me getting answers from John Garrett today. So, last question. As an employer, do you have any suggestions for interview questions that we can ask to help ensure that potential new hires have an and outside of work since your research has shown that these outside passions strengthen relationships with colleagues and clients, as well as improves performance?

John: Yeah. Again, just straight up ask. Besides work, what do you like to do; or when you’re not at work, where might I find you; or do you have any hobbies or outside of work interests that have nothing to do with your job? There’s a pretty large law firm, the office here in Denver, during the intake form, your GPA, where you went to school, whatever, they ask that besides law school, what do you like to do? And if your outside work hobby is reading more law books or something terrible like that, then they don’t even bring you in to interview you. They’re like “You’re not gonna fit, so it’s futile to even talk to you. I don’t care if you have a 4.0 from Harvard Law School or whatever.” And so, ask those on the way in on the intake form and then in the interview. I mean, almost at the top because you’re around this person more waking hours than your family. So I’d like to know who you are and talk about something besides those killer macros you’re doing in Excel or whatever it is. And so, yeah, I mean, I hope that kind of answers the question.

Tonya: Yeah. I think that’s great.

John: And it’s also great as “For instance, I like to go to the sand dunes and ride my UTVs with my family. What do you like to do?” ‘Cause that makes it feel safe where I’ve shared. And so, now, almost the universe is out of balance, so reciprocity has to happen almost where I just shared mine and asked you. You got something, you know. Like you can’t just leave me. They can’t go “I don’t know.” And it’s like “Well, now, the world’s weird. Like you gotta say something. Like I’m locking the door until you answer me.” And also, just how do you humanize that interview and how do you humanize that visit and just make it more of like you and me talking here as opposed to formal questions? And I mean, that’s the thing. Like when I speak— it’s funny— especially to accounting groups, I’ll say “You know, do you give them a technical skills test, you know, like I’d like you to sit down and prepare this cash flow statement?” And I go “No, you don’t because you also don’t know how to do a cash flow statement. That’s why.”

Tonya: Pay now. Pay now. I have to do cash flow statements for a whole bunch of funds ’cause we’re in fund accounting with government.

John: Oh, well, so you do.

Tonya: I do.

John: Well, here’s how you do it. You go to reports and then cash flow print. That’s how you do it. No. But you don’t give them that technical skills test.

Tonya: No.

John: You give them the human test of like “Are you somebody I wanna be around?”

Tonya: “Are you gonna fit with our team?” Yeah.

John: Yeah.

Tonya: Yeah.

John: And a culture add, not just a culture fit, but will you puzzle piece in, but pull us in a unique direction maybe, but you still fit, but it doesn’t have to conform I guess, if that sense.

Tonya: When I have mentees and I’m talking to them, that’s one of the biggest things I talk to them about like I understand that you’re looking for a job, but it’s as much about are you going to fit and is this gonna work for you as it is from the employer perspective. And so, trying to get that across, I mean, it’s hard when you’re coming out of college and you’re like “I want a job. I want a professional job.” But it really is important to take that step back, and look, and make sure that it’s a good fit for you as well individually and for your family, or your significant other, or your just your lifestyle, whatever that may be, whatever your end is.

John: Yeah. Are you able to live your best life basically? And that’s awesome. Very cool. Some real hard-hitting questions on The Tanya Moffitt Podcast. Wow. All right.

Tonya: I know. I know. Sorry.

John: No. No. That was good.

Well, no, hopefully it helps. And you know, the people listening, so many nuggets from you. I mean, like golly. So if anybody missed anything, rewind and listen again. Really, really fun, Tonya, having you be a part of this. So thank you so much.

Tonya: Yeah. Thanks for having me on the show, and I’ve really enjoyed reading What’s Your “And”? and listening to your podcast.

John: Oh, I appreciate it. Thank you.

And people listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Tonya out on her UTV or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything is there. All the links, and pictures, and everything. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.