Welcome to Episode 271 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. Each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and,” because you’re more than one thing. There’s parts of you that are above and beyond your technical skills and there are things that actually differentiate you when you’re in the office.

I’m so excited to let everyone know my book is being published in just a few months. It’ll be available on Amazon and a few other websites. So check out whatsyourand.com for all the details. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s listening to the show and changing the cultures where they work because of it. And the book will really help to spread this message.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe so you don’t miss any of the future episodes of the podcast. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Shaun Hunley. He’s a Senior Technical Editor with Thomson Reuters and prior to that, was a Tax Manager in Public Accounting. And now, he’s with me here today. Shaun, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Shaun: Hello, John. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

John: Oh, of course, man. A tax person, I don’t even know what you guys do. So God bless you, man. I got a C plus in that class in accounting and never did it again, even my own taxes.

Shaun: Well, it can be very dramatic and tragic as what you probably experienced in that class.

John: Exactly. I was like, “Isn’t this make belief? We should just do this like a Sudoku puzzle and just put numbers in random columns and it’s all good.”

Shaun: Yeah, absolutely. That’s how it works.

John: Well, good for you man. Good for you. But I always start my episodes with rapid-fire questions. So it’s getting to know Shaun right out of the gate here. I’ll start you with a pretty easy one. Favorite color?

Shaun: Believe it or not, it’s gray.

John: Gray. Okay. That’s a very tax person answer.

Shaun: I don’t think I’m really depressed or sad, but I do love gray and it goes well with almost everything.

John: That’s true. That is an excellent point. And it’s not as dark and jaded as black.

Shaun: It’s a step up. Yes.

John: How about a least favorite color?

Shaun: Least favorite color? I’m going to go with the purple.

John: All right. That’s a solid answer, solid answer. Are you more pens or pencils?

Shaun: Definitely pens.

John: Yeah. Nice. Okay. How about Sudoku or crossword?

Shaun: Definitely crossword puzzles.

John: Crossword. Okay. All right. All right.

Shaun: I don’t like Sudoku. I don’t want to learn that. No.

John: Right. Because then you’ll start doing taxes that way. That’s why.

Shaun: That’s right.

John: Right. How about oceans or mountains?

Shaun: Ooh, I’m going to go with ocean because I was born in Hawaii, so I’m partial to the beach. I do love mountains as well, especially where I live in Georgia. There are some beautiful mountains. Though people in the West would call them hills. They’re not the Rocky Mountains, but they’re beautiful anyway. So I’ll go with ocean though.

John: Okay. All right. Oceans it is. How about a favorite band or musician?

Shaun: Oh, my gosh. I was going to say Bon Jovi because that was the first cassette tape I purchased in the early ‘80s. It was Slippery When Wet by Bon Jovi. I’m surprised my parents let me get that one, but they probably didn’t know any better, but I’ll go with Bon Jovi.

John: That’s great, man. That’s awesome. Very cool, very cool. Would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

Shaun: Definitely an early bird. I can’t stay up past 10:00.

John: Okay. That’s awesome. How about more Star Wars or Star Trek?

Shaun: Star Wars for sure.

John: Yeah. Okay. And your computer, PC or a Mac?

Shaun: Right now, a PC. I used to love Macs. Then I converted back to a PC.

John: Absolutely. So then on your PC, on your mouse, right click or left click?

Shaun: Left click.

John: Okay. Making decisions. That’s where it’s at. That’s like clicking on stuff. Yeah. Absolutely. How about a favorite animal? Any animal?

Shaun: A whale.

John: A whale?

Shaun: It’s my spirit animal.

John: And it’s your spirit animal. Okay.

Shaun: It is. I have a lot of whales in my house and on my clothing. It’s a little strange, but that’s just how I feel.

John: And is it a specific whale or just all of them?

Shaun: Just all of them. Just a nice, big, fat whale.

John: Okay. I love it, man. That’s awesome. And they’re great usually, so that’s great. Or that’s how they are in cartoons anyway.

Shaun: It’s my personality. Sure.

John: That’s unbelievable. Okay. How about a favorite place you’ve been on vacation?

Shaun: Oh man, that’s hard. I was going to say Hawaii, but I’ve already talked about Hawaii. I’m going to go with Trinidad, the island of Trinidad.

John: Yeah. Not so much Tobago, but the Trinidad part. Yeah. I’ve never been.

Shaun: Well, Tobago is also beautiful, but it’s a little harder to get to and it’s more expensive, so go to the Trinidad.

John: Okay. All right. Yeah. I’ve never been to either. I’ve always just heard them lumped together. All right. Very cool, very cool. How about — this is a tough one — cheeseburger or pizza?

Shaun: I’m going to go with pizza because I used to live in New York City and I love New York City pizza. Nice thin, crisp crust baked in a wood burning oven.

John: Oh yeah, a legit pizza. Absolutely. How about a favorite number? Any number?

Shaun: I’ll go with 12.

John: Oh, okay. Is there a reason?

Shaun: I don’t know why. Maybe it’s because that’s the day I was born, but it’s a nice number. I like even numbers. Yeah.

John: Absolutely. How about more suit and tie or jeans and a t-shirt?

Shaun: Jeans and a t-shirt. Absolutely. I work from home so I never dress up.

John: You didn’t even have to think about that one. That was awesome. Two more, two more. More Balance Sheet or Income Statement?

Shaun: I’ll go with Income Statement because I don’t like when things balance to be honest with you. And me, myself, I’m not very balanced, so let’s go with Income Statement.

John: I love it. Okay. Just in the name alone, it drives me — yeah, that’s hilarious. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Shaun: The favorite thing I own is a small painting by a local artist here in Georgia. He signs his paintings with the name Cornbread. That is not his real name. Everyone asks me, “What does this mean?” It’s his nickname. And he paints a lot of birds. I have a painting he did call Guineas. I just really love it. It’s a folk art type of painting and I love that.

John: Very cool. That’s fantastic. Yeah. You’ve got to get him to do a whale.

Shaun: Yeah. That’s right. Sure.

John: Your worlds are colliding.

Shaun: Yeah. I’d have to include that part. That’s right. That’s right.

John: That’s very cool, man. Yeah. Let’s talk. Yeah. I mean sketch comedy and improv and all that, I mean how did you get started with that?

Shaun: It’s interesting because I’ve loved comedy since I was a little kid. I remember in the early ‘80s watching Saturday Night Live, which, again, I don’t know why my parents let me do that, but I mean maybe back then, it was cleaner. I don’t know. But I remember looking at people like Jan Hooks, Dana Carvey, Phil Hartman, all these classic comedian.

I remember watching this one skit with Jan Hooks. She was playing the Sweeney Sisters. I don’t know if you remember that. There were two women, sisters who would sing at this nightclub act type thing. And I remember watching that and thinking it was hysterical. I was like, “I want to be like that. I want to be a performer and make people laugh.” But as a kid and as a teenager, I was extremely shy. So I did not get up in front of people. With my friends, I was funny, but not with strangers. I was too shy.

When I got into college, believe it or not, I just had this desire to perform. I remember telling my roommates in college, “I am going to be in a comedy troupe at some point. So what happened is I took an improv class from the founder of one of the improv groups that was very popular at the time. I did it just to get noticed. I was like, “Oh, I want him to see me so when I try out, I can make it.” It went okay. But honestly, improv is very hard. You’ve got to be quick on your feet. There are some rules to improv. I had to learn like you always say yes, for example, which I like to say no to people a lot. So it was tough.

John: Right. That’s not what I was thinking. We’re going over here. Why are you in the garage?

Shaun: Let’s change course.

John: Right. Exactly.

Shaun: Yeah. It was a good experience. He said, “Yeah. You did a good job. Go ahead and try out.” But when the tryouts came, the group actually had disbanded. So I was a little bummed that they were no longer around, right? But then my roommate said, “haven’t you heard of this other group? They don’t do improv. They do sketch comedy.” And I said, “Hey, why not? Let me go ahead and try out for that group.” That’s how I got interested and that’s how I got into performing. It was in college.

John: That’s awesome. I mean I also grew up with that SNL class. I mean the Dana Carvey and the Mike Myers and Phil Hartman. Then Tim Meadows was there forever, I think. Then later on, it was the Adam Sandler and the Chris Farley and the David Spade group. I mean just all amazing. Then In Living Color came around and Jim Carrey and all of the Wayans family basically. That was awesome. I mean that’s what I grew up on as well and watching all that. And even The Kids in the Hall from Canada. Those guys were hilarious. Just seeing all of that. But I didn’t think it could be like, “Wow. You do that for a living? That’s crazy,” type of a thing.

Shaun: Exactly. Yeah. And I always thought that that’s something I would never do because everyone on those shows, they seem so fearless and extroverted. Whereas I did not feel, as a kid, like I was very extroverted. I was very introverted. But now as an adult, I would say that if I need to put it on and be extroverted, I can do it. And that’s how I’ve got through my career, by teaching and presenting at conferences and doing things like that. Comedy has really allowed me to tap into that extroverted side of me and also to overcome some of the fears that I had getting up in front of people and thinking, “Oh, no. They’re judging me. They’re going to make fun of me,” things like that. So it’s been a great experience leading into this career I have now.

John: I hear you. And the ironic thing is that most people that do comedy for a living are pretty introverted. We really are. I mean Adam Sandler is insanely introverted. I mean even when he’s on stage doing his stand-up a lot of times he’ll just be looking down and not — it’s a different thing. I mean Chris Farley, of course, was just an animal all the time. But for the most part, they’re just quiet, introverted people. What we think of people isn’t always the case because I thought the same thing. It’s like, “Man, these people are hilarious all the time.” No. They’re just regular people. Doctors don’t go around with a stethoscope checking people’s hearts everywhere they go. It’s like just dial it down. So kudos to you for giving that a shot, man. That’s really brave.

Shaun: Yeah. It’s interesting you mentioned that about people’s expectations because when I was in college, all my friends, sometimes, they’d look at me and say, “Why are you not smiling? Why are you not jumping up and down? Why are you not making us laugh?” I was like, “Well, I’m a human being. What you see on stage is not necessarily me all the time. It’s just a facet of me. It’s just a part of my personality.” So it’s interesting you mentioned that because that was hard overcoming people’s expectations at times.

John: Yeah, I know. I mean I get the same thing. When I started doing stand-up, I would go to whether it’s the networking thing or even just a party at someone’s house or whatever. And people would be like, “He hasn’t said a funny thing all night.” “Well, yeah, because I don’t have to. I’m not getting paid. I’m not on stage. This isn’t — I mean we’re just hanging out.” The person that’s always on I find is exhausting. That’s just an obnoxious jerk. It’s like you’re actually probably not very good. If we threw you on a stage in this show, you’re going to not probably do very well. I’ve seen that happen so many times. And it’s kind of satisfying to be honest when you see that person and it’s like, “Oh, yeah.” Then the quiet shy person gets up there and just lights it up. But that’s really brave of you to do that. And that’s really cool.

Shaun: Thank you.

John: So sketch comedy being like Saturday Night Live where it’s written scenes and a full-on show that’s kind of improv based but it’s written and performed.

Shaun: Yes. Everything was written down. Everything was scripted. There were times where I would write the scripts. But I would say most of the time, I did not write them. I was better at performing than writing, which now in my career I’d say has flipped, definitely better at writing now. But we used to do two hours shows of pure sketch comedy. We didn’t do it every week like SNL does it. We would do maybe four or five shows a month.

John: Oh wow, that’s impressive.

Shaun: Yeah. It’d take about a month to write all of the original skits. Then at the end of the semester in college, we would do like a “best of” which would be all the best skits that people liked and we put that into one show.

John: That’s pretty awesome man. Did you do it for just one year or —

Shaun: I did it for two years. After my undergrad, I went to law school. I thought, “I can’t be funny anymore, right?” I’m in law school. But there were times where I would go back and do guests performances with them. So I did it consistently for two years. Then probably another year, year and a half, I’d go back now and then to perform with them.

John: As an alum.

Shaun: Yeah, like as an alum. Yeah.

John: That’s really fantastic and a lot of work. I mean people have no idea. I mean to write a sketch, it’s hard. And to act it out and to get everyone on the same page and that it’s funny and legit and it rolls into maybe what the next sketch is going to be so it’s a seamless show, that’s a lot of work.

Shaun: It really is. I’ll never forget one of the guys who had been at the troupe for a long time, he would tell me, “There’s a difference between being funny with your friends and then being funny on stage in front of an audience.” And that’s something I really had to learn, especially that first year in writing skits, that I was not making my friends laugh. I was trying to make a large group of people laugh. And it’s just so much different.

John: Oh yeah. In the inside joke kind of references sort of thing.

Shaun: You can’t really do that with them necessarily.

John: Exactly. Yeah. Or strangers won’t go along with you if you’re off on a tangent. Then you come back, your friends are like, “Oh, okay. Well, whatever.” The general public will be like, “What the hell? I don’t even know what he’s talking about anymore and what the funny is. Just forget it. I’m done.” That’s awesome, man, and what a great skillset I would imagine that applies to work. I mean through law school and then you get into the the tax world, did you find that that gave you a skill that you brought to the office? I mean you already said that you’re able to turn it on when you’re speaking or teaching. But did you find it in the corporate world as well?

Shaun: Absolutely, especially with clients because I am usually introverted. But most clients I would say don’t necessarily appreciate that especially when you have a first meeting with them. They want to see that you’re passionate about what you’re doing and that you can answer their questions correctly. So I think the performing side of me would show through when I would meet with clients. It just helped me be more personable with them and I guess more animated. And I think it was good because a lot of people think tax people are boring, very introverted as well. A little dry, I guess you would say.

John: Yeah. Or just no personality.

Shaun: Just, yeah, lacking personality, which is not true. It’s definitely not true. So I think clients were surprised sometimes when they met me because I wasn’t that stereotype of a tax professional, right?

John: Yeah. And come to find out from doing the podcast that you’re right. I mean the stereotype is actually you. The stereotype is people that have multiple dimensions to them and other interests than a real personality and they’re normal people. And that’s encouraging to hear that, I mean, clients gravitate to that. They already assume that you’re good at the tech side because you work for a firm. I mean it’s got to be done right. It’s just it’s going to be done by somebody that is a normal person that I can relate to and have a normal conversation with.

Shaun: Absolutely. I think clients appreciate obviously when you’re technical and you know the answers. But what they appreciate even more is when you can talk to them like a normal human being and say these technical things in everyday language where they can understand their situation. And that’s what comedy has helped me with. It’s taking these technical things that maybe they don’t need to know all those details but I can then translate that for them where they can understand.

John: I mean that’s it right there. That’s so powerful because I’m going to bet that at no point in your business education or law school, did anyone ever tell you, “Go do comedy because it’ll make you better at your job.” And yet it clearly did. I mean it clearly did and you just nailed it. I mean clients don’t need to know how you did the tax return or what line item this goes to. I don’t even care what’s the end result and what are you saving me. Yeah, if you know the answer, that’s great. And if you don’t, you know who does. So you’ll help me because you’re a normal person. That’s really powerful. It really is. Did you ever share this side of you with clients or co-workers, that you had this sketch comedy gene that you developed in college?

Shaun: At first, no. Honestly, I felt — like I said earlier, when I went to law school, I felt like I can’t be funny anymore because lawyers are not funny, they’re serious, which is not true. That was the stereotype I was thinking about.

John: Totally. Yeah.

Shaun: So when I got into my first job, especially at a Big Four firm, I just felt like I couldn’t share that with others because they would think that I was not serious enough. They wouldn’t take me seriously. But I did have a few close coworkers that knew and I would share that with them. And they loved it. I think they really relate to it. So it took me a while to share that with more and more people at these firms.

John: Yeah. No, I hear you. I mean I was the same way. For the most part, it was just if people asked, “What did you do this weekend.” “Oh, I drove to the city and did a comedy show.” They’re, “Wait, what?” Was I supposed to say nothing? I didn’t know what I was supposed to say. I didn’t do it on purpose but it accidentally led to really cool things. Then when people find out, it’s always a positive experience. There’s follow-up questions. Then you can have conversation. There’s something that you have in common there. So it’s cool to hear that once you did, it was positive.

Shaun: Absolutely. And even at my current job at Thomson Reuters, I don’t think a lot of people know that’s what I used to do unless they look at my Twitter handle for example. They don’t really know, “Oh yeah, you did sketch comedy. Tell me a little more about that.” And it surprises them. But what I’ve been telling people lately is, “I used to be funny and I’m not funny anymore, so don’t expect me to make you laugh because I’m not going to do it.”

John: No, no. This podcast proves you wrong right there, buddy. You’re hilarious.

Shaun: But then they laugh, so, yes, I did make them laugh.

John: Totally.

Shaun: It’s interesting overcoming, I guess, what you think people will perceive you as if you say you like things that are traditionally not associated with a tax professional.

John: Which is pretty much anything except for more tax work.

Shaun: Right, or setting the code. I mean I’ve known people at Big Four who they would read the tax code on the weekends and that was fun for them. That’s fine. Go ahead and do that. But for me, that wasn’t me. That wasn’t the essence of me.

John: Right. And the important thing is that both of you are okay. It’s totally okay to be all work all the time if you want to be, but it’s also 100% okay to have other interests and other passions. I think for too long, in our own heads or professionalism or whatever it is, one side has bullied the other. Then it’s the smaller percentage that has bullied the vast majority of us and just conforming to something that we’re really not. And it’s so powerful to hear you say that, that overcoming what people think of us. It’s really the hardest part of all of this, I think. And even for the two of us, of which I’ve done something that most people would consider to be the hardest thing on the planet, which is getting in front of strangers and making them laugh, even we were scared.

Shaun: Absolutely.

John: We’ve faced down some scary stuff and not blinked. Yet you put us into an office, talk about your hobby. “Ugh, I’ve got to go.”

Shaun: Yeah. Head down, eyes down. You don’t talk about it.

John: Yeah. Was it just confidence and your own technical skills or you were there long enough? What do you think it is that helped you to open up?

Shaun: That’s a great question. When I started proving myself to my co-workers that I knew what I was doing, that I was technical and once they thought, “Ooh, I can go to Shaun for questions,” then I thought, “Okay. I’ve proven myself and now, I can open up about this passion that I have.” And I think that they responded well to that.

John: No, and that makes complete sense. I mean especially something that’s like comedy where they’re going to have a predisposed, “It’s foul mouth. That’s dirty. It’s inappropriate. It’s a clown show. He’s not serious about anything.” Something like that is definitely — it’s important to let people know that that’s just a piece of you. There’s all these other pieces of you as well that are not that. And you’re not even that anyway. I think that that’s the hardest part. It’s people having to overcome themselves really. It’s the biggest barrier. Awesome, man. Well, do you have any words of advice to anybody listening that might have a hobby or a passion that they think has nothing to do with their career?

Shaun: Absolutely. Just go for it, right? That fear because when you let fear go and you overcome it, then you progress as a human being and you become successful not only in the hobby you’re pursuing, but also the job that you have, your normal job. So just do it. Overcome that fear. Don’t worry about what your co-workers think because all of us have different interests and hobbies and we can all be good at something. So just go ahead and do it. It’s my advice.

John: That’s so great. It’s only fair to let you be the host now and turn the tables because this has been so much fun. But before I wrap it up, to let you rapid-fire question me if you like, since I so rudely fired away at you at the beginning.

Shaun: Oh, okay.

John: So you’re now the host of this show, Shaun. Here we go.

Shaun: John, what do you prefer? A sketch comedy or an improv type comedy?

John: That’s really tough.

Shaun: You can answer with what you like to do versus what you like to see.

John: If it comes to those two — because stand-up’s a whole different animal. I think sketch is really great in the sense that really well-written sketches that weave together like what you guys did. You can see at The Second City in Chicago, Upright Citizens Brigade in New York, UCB and The Groundlings in LA where a piece of one sketch either is a thread through the entire show or bleeds into the next sketch which bleeds into the next sketch. I mean that’s just brilliant, well thought out. There’s some homework done there. That’s really impressive. Yeah. So really great sketch comedy is really funny to me.

Shaun: This might not be quick fire, but what is your advice to people who want to get out of a traditional career path? For example, someone in tax, if they want to do something in alternative career, what would you advise them to do?

John: Yeah. Well, I would advise them to keep the career that has the steady paycheck and the benefits and do it as a hobby. To do something that is creative or whatever is really, really, really, really, really, really hard. I mean I can’t stress how hard it is to make a living at something like this. So do it as a hobby and bring it in to work with you because you’re good at the traditional job but you also have this other side to you. So keep that going because that lights you up and that gives you that energy.

I had Mark Windburn on a couple of years ago on the podcast. He referred to singing as him breathing in happy. So breathe in that happy and share it with others. But can you make a living at it or maybe your life circumstances are different? Probably not. Probably not. That’s why it’s a hobby. But you don’t have to be amazing at it. You don’t have to be world class at it. You’re still that. I mean there’s no difference.

Then at some point, you just do it as long as you can, both. Then at some point, if you’re fortunate enough to be able to have the opportunity where circumstances come up and you think you can give it a go, then, yeah. I mean you just — but I think do it as long as possible as a hobby. Don’t just go quit your job because you did one — “Well, somebody bought one of my paintings, so now, I’m a professional painter.” It’s like, “No, that’s insane.” Do not do that. So definitely keep it as a hobby as long as possible. I don’t know if that’s the answer you wanted, but I’m very careful to make sure that people don’t, despite — how my career panned out? I was very fortunate. A lot of things have to go your way to get that to happen. But I also did it as a hobby for years. I mean years. And now that I’m out here, I mean it’s hard. It’s a hustle every single day. You are your own business and it’s difficult.

So I’m very careful to not tell people, “Just quit and follow your passion,” because that’s crazy talk. And anyone that tells you that is a jerk because they’re not being honest. Because for that one person that made it, there’s another 9,999 that didn’t. And I don’t want to be the person that tells you to go do it and then you find me one day and punch me in the face. “You told me I could make it.” “I don’t even know who you are.”

Shaun: You’re right. Right.

John: And that hurts like, “Aw.” Well, thanks, Shaun. I really appreciate it. This has been so much fun catching up with you, having you be a part of What’s Your “And”?

Shaun: Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much. It’s been a great time.

John: Everyone listening, if you want to see some pictures of Shaun when he did the sketch comedy or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on that page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture that I’m doing.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

I’m so excited to let everyone know my book is being published this fall. They’ll be available on Amazon and a few other websites. So check out whatsyourand.com for all the details, or sign up for my exclusive list and you’ll be the first to know. I really appreciate the support. If you do, you’ll even get a few tracks for my comedy album for free. And please don’t forget to hit Subscribe to the show. You see them in the future episodes every Wednesday and then now with the follow-up Fridays.

This week is no different with Greg Kyte. He’s the Controller at Utah Valley Physicians Plaza and the founder of Comedy CPE. Now, he’s with me here today.

Greg, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”? I’m so glad to be here. I mean, we’re pals from way back when, so it’s always nice to circle back around. Not just pals from way back when but our and is the same, so we got that in common. So yeah.

John: Yeah, exactly, which is how we got connected to begin with.

Greg: Yeah, exactly.

John: We didn’t connect over the accounting. That’s for sure.

Greg: Nope, that was not it.

John: We both had the same questions. How do you do a cash flow statement? I don’t know either.

Greg: Right. Do you want me to talk about cash flow statements? Because…

John: As much as I would, but that’s not your and. So we’ll that in a different show, Greg.

Greg: Because at my company, we have non-cash distributions. It screws everything up because the assumption is that the distributions, it’s just a whole thing.

John: It sounds like a whole thing, but I do have rapid-fire questions for you right out of the gate, just so we can see what happens here. So here we go. If you had to choose, Harry Potter or Game of Thrones?

Greg: Game of Thrones.

John: Okay. Suit and tie or jeans and a t-shirt?

Greg: Jeans and a t-shirt all day long.

John: Okay, how about a favorite ice cream toppings?

Greg: Oh, caramel. I love caramel.

John: Interesting. Okay, cats or dogs?

Greg: I have dogs.

John: Okay. Favorite Disney character?

Greg: It would be the genie from Aladdin.

John: Yeah, also hilarious. Also hilarious.

Greg: Yeah. Sorry, but to be specific, the animated Aladdin.

John: Okay, not the thing that came out with a new one.

Greg: All props to Will Smith. He’s amazing, but it’s not. He’s no Robin Williams.

John: Very true. Very true. And I know you fly a lot, aisle or window seat?

Greg: Aisle.

John: Okay. And the last one, this one is important, toilet paper, roll over or under?

Greg: Under is an abomination to everything that’s good. Listen, if you invite me to your house and your toilet paper is rolled underhand, I’m changing that because you’re wrong, and I’m probably not going to be your friend anymore.

John: There you go and unfollow on social which is where it really hurts. That’s where it really hurts.

Greg: Right, exactly.

John: Yeah, that’s awesome, man. That’s awesome. So let’s talk comedy. What’s new in the comedy career since we talked in 2015? That’s four years ago, man. That’s nuts.

Greg: So long good. It’s weird because I think when you’re in the thick of it, it seems like everything’s kind of moving along sort of incrementally, but you look back over a span like four years and there’s tons of stuff that’s happened in the last four years because my and is kind of nice, just like with you. You can find a niche at the intersection of the skill you were trained for, accounting, and what the passion is, what the hobby is, which is comedy.

So one of the things that I’ve been able to do a lot over the last four years, which I’ve totally loved, is I have been doing the presenting, I’ve been doing the comedy, continuing education stuff, that’s been great. That stuff kind of comes to me. I don’t do a whole lot of marketing for that. But another thing that’s happened is just emceeing conferences which is great. It’s a little bit risky. There’s a little bit of panic that I get when I’m doing that because it’s not just where you show up and you do your material per se. A lot of it is just you’re rolling with it, you’re given announcements, whatever’s happening.

But that’s been great. I love that to death. I’ve done a few Xerocons. That was a big deal doing it with Jason Blumer with the Thriveal CPA Network, do his stuff, and those have been great. It’s so much fun to be able to go to something like that as a comedian and go, these things aren’t known for being high energy or fun or funny. I’d be able to come in and people go, “What the hell just happened? That was amazing.”

John: Yeah, I mean, exactly because that’s the thing is I don’t think that people understand how important a good emcee is until they see one because they’ve never had an emcee, or it’s been the managing partner or the executive director or you name it. It’s just somebody who does it and it’s like, yeah, but that’s a totally different skill that you need to run a show. It’s something that you learn from doing all the comedy shows which is great, man.

Greg: Exactly.

John: I mean, that’s what I do as well. I think what you’re doing too is you’re creating an experience for the people that are there. They’re learning the content but in a way that is something that they’ll remember.

Greg: It’s how to keep people engaged with it because of — I mean, you know this. It’s like, if you space out while somebody is doing comedy, whether you watch it on TV, you’re seeing it live, whatever, you space out during the setup, and then you hear the punch line, you hear everybody laughing, and you go, “I just totally miss something,” and that’s what I did. So there’s a lot more engagement when you do keep stuff fun.

Another thing that — this is actually new as of about a year ago, I’ve also started running my own show, like my own regular live show, here in Salt Lake City called Comedy Church because another interest of mine has always been religion. I was very, very religious for about 20 years of my life, not so much anymore. Still very interested in that kind of stuff. So Comedy Church is basically, like I said, it’s a live show. I’ve got comedians that come in. They do their bits about God and religion and things like that. And then after they do their set, I do a little interview with them just to be like, how is your life intersected with religion? Has that changed over time and where are you now? And it’s been a great show. It’s been fantastic, so much fun.

John: That’s interesting.

Greg: Yeah. And every now and then we’ll get some musical comedian that will come in that will do a song because that was the original idea was just like, let’s do a comedy show that’s about religion that mirrors the format of a church service or religious service. It’s sort of evolved on its own to be what it is. But anyway, so that’s just a blast. A lot of work but a lot of fun.

John: How often do you do that?

Greg: It’s every other week except I take off December because it gets too busy with the holidays, and I take off the summer because it gets too busy with vacation. So every other week in the spring, every other week in the fall. So actually on August 25th, we’re starting back up for our fall season.

John: Sweet.

Greg: Yeah, and it’s pretty cool. I don’t know if you’ve ever been to Wiseguys out here in Salt Lake City, but we started the shows at a bar. It was like a dueling piano bar that actually opened up for us on Sundays which was cool. But then after we proof of concept over there, the guy who owns Wiseguys invited us to move it over to his place. So we’re legit now which is pretty great.

John: Great for you, man. Too legit to quit.

Greg: Too legit to quit.

John: Look at you. You just did the hand symbols. I know you did. I know you did.

Greg: Well, I’ve got my baggy crotch pants, and I just did the little shuffle.

John: I would ask if you could do the dance, but I’ve seen the video. I know that’s enough.

Greg: It is enough.

John: That’s really great, man. That’s really great. I guess one thing that’s always fascinating is just people sharing their hobbies and their passions. Do you find that that’s happening more now or is it still a lot of work to be done?

Greg: Well, okay, it’s funny, John, because I want to say, yes, people are sharing their hobbies more. But I wonder how much my perception of that is skewed because of you and the work that you’re doing because we follow each other on social media. I regularly see posts come up about here’s a CPA. They’re not just an accountant. They’re also Bigfoot hunters or whatever the various ones are called. So I’m seeing a lot of that. I’m just saying, dude, you’re changing the profession, man. You’re making it happen, and I’m seeing it through Instagram, if not in real life as well.

John: Well, thanks, man. I appreciate that. People who are in Instagram, you can go to What’s Your “And”? It’s pretty cool because there’s pictures of everybody, including you, I believe, on the Wiseguys stage even. Everyone’s smiling, like they’re all smiling. They’re happy, and they’re alive. If I were to step into everyone’s office randomly, I’m not sure if everyone would be smiling the same way, unfortunately. So it’s cool to see.

Greg: And here’s the thing too. Just in terms of, specifically, an accounting profession, people sharing their and, I think it has a lot to do with where you’re at and where you’re going in your firm. I believe that once you get to a higher, more visible level at your firm, you’ve got to have more to talk about than just accounting, or else I don’t think you’re going to get there. Or if you get there, you’re going to hate it and everybody’s going to hate you getting there. Do you know what I mean?

Case in point, so I’m a controller, so I do need to work with a CPA firm. I do a lot of the grunt work for the tax return, but it’s super complex tax return, so I pass it on to them at a certain point. Obviously, I can’t review my own financial statements, so they do that. There’s a newer guy who’s starting to work with us from their team. He was real back office. I’d email and stuff, but then I met with him and it was one of those just weird things where — so I was meeting with the partner who’s in charge of it and this guy. This guy, he was just the lump, man. The partner, however, is very outgoing, almost like, “Hey, dude, I think I’m paying you by the hour, so let’s focus, focus.”

John: That’s weird that you’re the one saying to focus, like a weird turn of events.

Greg: Right. But the other guy, like I said, I’m just kind of going, I think he probably is good for being the nameless, faceless guy who’s crunching numbers in his cubicle, but he’s not going to move from there if he doesn’t at least get comfortable, because I got to assume there’s something that he’s interested in more than accounting, and I have zero idea what that is. So if you’re not cultivating that in, if you don’t have it, if you’re not willing to be vulnerable enough to share that with your clients and coworkers, I kind of think that’ll probably limit how far you’re able to go in your firm.

John: I agree 100% because I had someone remember me 12 years after I left the PwC office in St. Louis as the guy who did comedy at night. I had never worked with him. I never met him. He was in the tax department. I don’t even know how taxes work. He was on a different floor. I think everyone deserves, 12 years from now, to have someone say, “I remember you. You were the person that this.” And it’s never work related. It never is.

Greg: The first year that I was in the accounting profession, I worked at a firm. I like to say I worked there for 2003 hours. I probably told you this before. When I was at the firm, I think it was a monthly staff meeting that everybody was supposed to come to. Right after I started there, because I’ve been doing stand-up longer than I’ve been an accountant, so I went to the partner who’s in charge of those meetings. I was like, “What would you think if I did like an accounting update at the beginning of the staff meetings?” What I did is I wrote jokes based on articles in the Journal of Accountancy, and I did like five minutes up front at every single staff meeting. It was a tough crowd. You want to talk about tough crowds, it was a tough crowd. But it was the home team too, so they were cool. One of the partners who, after I did that, maybe three or four times, he came up to me and he was trying to be a little bit under his breath go, “The only reason I come to these meetings is because of you.”

John: That’s great, man. That’s so great. It was a guarantee they remember you.

Greg: Oh, yeah, without a question. Yeah, for sure. Oh, and the managing partner did not enjoy my sense of humor, though.

John: Why it wasn’t 2004 hours.

Greg: There was a guy, I can’t remember his name, but whoever it was, the current president of the — because Barry Melancon is the CEO of the AICPA. He doesn’t change, and he’s a cyborg or something, so he’s never retired. But every year, they get a new president. So whoever the president was, Ernie Escalante, so anyway, something like that, Ernie something, and I just made a joke. I think about his name and the managing partner just completely humorous, says, “I met him. He’s actually a really nice guy.” It was like, oh, my God.

John: You would have laughed harder. You got that joke, Ernie.

Greg: Yeah, exactly.

John: He’s laughing the hardest about that joke. I don’t even know the guy. That’s hilarious, man. It was Bert and Arnie joke, I bet.

Greg: It’s probably something like that. I mean, I guess that’s more just for my own kind of subversive side where it’s like, it’s so nice that one partner is saying the only reason he shows up for it. And then at the same time, I’m like driving the managing partner up a wall because he’s worried that somehow words going to get back to Ernie that I burned him hard in the staff meeting.

John: Right. I mean, clearly, nothing’s going to happen like that, and they’re going to shut the firm down. You’re like, “What’s the worst thing can happen?” It’s crazy. Like, your clients are going to find out that, it’s just dumb. People can build things up so much in their own head. And then when you let it out, it’s like, oh, wow, like everyone does love this, like this is cool.

Greg: Well, exactly. And that’s the thing is that I think that in our profession as accountants, so much of what we think, our perceived value is taking everything very seriously. But that’s bull crap because what people really want is they want to make sure that you’re competent, that you’re trustworthy, and then beyond that, they’re awesome. If you’re somebody who’s like — I mean, it’s countless times that people have told me how refreshing it was that I actually have a personality. So I don’t think that we have to be these severe serious, buttoned-up people all the time. And there’s a time to not to screw around. I think that time is very infrequently, but some discernment is going to help you navigate through that.

John: That’s so perfect, man. And what a great way to wrap it up with a great bit of advice. And it doesn’t even have to be like messing around. It’s just show some personality. I think for you and me, the personality obviously is goofing around. But not everybody has that but show some flavor like the person that you met with, the new person at the firm that’s doing the work for your company, then it’s like, you got to open up a little bit, buddy. Like you got to show some personality here.

Greg: And it takes a little vulnerability, but just I think if people do it, they’ll figure out it’s not really that big of a risk.

John: I would argue riskier to not.

Greg: Yeah.

John: That’s great, man. Well, I started out rapid-fire questioning you. So it’s only fair for me to turn the tables and allow you to rapid-fire question me. I have all the bulletproof everything on because I’m so nervous right now for you firing away.

Greg: Question number one, what is the most crucial part of the tax cuts in JOBS act?

John: Oh, the most crucial part is the part where it says “the end.” That’s the most crucial part because then you know you’re done.

Greg: I was still hoping you would have just said, “Oh, paragraph 8.”

John: Right. I don’t even though if there is a paragraph 8. I do know there is a “the end” though.

Greg: I see it, right, right. Okay, so next thing, coffee or running shoes?

John: Running shoes. I somehow missed the coffee train altogether.

Greg: Did you, really?

John: I’m not a coffee drinker.

Greg: You’re not a coffee drinker. I’m not so much of a coffee drinker either, so I’d probably go the same thing.

John: I’m not going to run in the running shoes, but I’ll wear them.

Greg: I mean, I will but I can run about as good as I can dance. And then just the last rapid-fire question for you. What is the worst thing that you’ve ever done in your life?

John: Interview Greg Kyte twice.

Greg: Perfect. There are so many regrets.

John: So many regrets. I can’t even count the number of showers I need right now. So this has been great, Greg. Thank you so much for taking time to be with me again on What’s Your “And”? This was so much fun.

Greg: Absolutely. Yeah, fun for me too, man. Anytime.

John: Yeah, and everybody listening, if you want to see what Greg looks like and be like “No way!” go to whatsyourand.com. There are links to his social media. Follow him on Twitter. He’s got hilarious stuff that he’s posted there with his cartoons that he does. And while you’re on the page, please click that big green button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends, so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

But first, I have a quick favor to ask you. If you like the show and are listening on iTunes or your favorite Android app, don’t forget to hit subscribe, so you don’t miss any of the future guests because I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Graeme Gordon. He’s the Executive Director and CEO of Praxity which is the largest alliance of independent accounting tax and consulting firms in the world. And prior to that, he had a variety of positions in finance and accounting. I was fortunate enough to hang out with Graeme and meet him last year at the Association for Accounting Marketing Conference. So I know this is going to get crazy in a hurry.

Graeme, thanks so much for being with me today on the Green Apple Podcast.

Graeme: It’s great pleasure.

John: I’m so excited to make time. This is going to be so much fun. But as you know, we always start it out with get to know Graeme on another level with my 17 rapid-fire questions.

Graeme: I’m here.

John: Okay, very good. Very good. All right, here we go. When it comes to trilogies, Star Wars or Star Trek?

Graeme: Star Wars.

John: Okay. All right, and your computer, a PC or a Mac?

Graeme: It’s a PC.

John: Okay. When you click on your mouse, right click or left click.

Graeme: Both actually. I’m a happy clicker.

John: There we go. I’ve never had that answer. Awesome. You’re just bragging. Do you prefer more hot or cold?

Graeme: Hot. Oh, God, I moved from Scotland because it’s too cold. I love this place. I’d rather be in Florida than Scotland.

John: Okay, okay. How about a favorite place you’ve been on vacation? You’ve been all over the world.

Graeme: Well, vacation, Venice, I think.

John: Oh, okay.

Graeme: I got a place in Florida I love to visit because it’s an island. Having said that, I love Scotland. There’s an island in Scotland I love to visit.

John: And what’s the name of that one?

Graeme: L’Isle-Adam.

John: Okay.

Graeme: You have to roll your R’s there as well.

John: Okay, perfect. I’m practicing. I’m practicing. How about when it comes to financials, going back to your accounting days, income statement or balance sheet?

Graeme: Profit and loss.

John: Okay, profit and loss. I like that. I like that. That’s very British of you. Would you say you prefer more suit and tie or jeans and a t-shirt?

Graeme: Well, neither actually. It’s a khakis and buttoned down, open-neck shirts.

John: Okay. Okay, kind of an in between. All right. Since you have the accounting background, I have to ask, do you have a favorite number?

Graeme: Seven.

John: And is there a reason?

Graeme: Everyone says lucky. The other one is 42 because it’s the answer to everything.

John: Okay. All right, Jackie Robinson’s number. That’s what that is.

Graeme: Well, I was going to say 42 is the most number you’ve got to remember.

John: Oh, yeah. As a Yankees fan, of course. Of course. Yeah. So do you have a favorite Disney character?

Graeme: Yes, I do. It’s Goofy.

John: Ah, good answer. Very good answer. That’s a solid answer there. Would you say more Sudoku or crossword puzzles?

Graeme: I can’t do Sudoku, so I have to say crossword puzzles but neither of them actually.

John: How about a favorite color?

Graeme: It’s red.

John: And how about the least favorite color?

Graeme: What we call green, kiki greens, green — oh, I can’t describe them so that off gray, green.

John: Oh, yeah, like an olive green, sort of like army green almost?

Graeme: Well, it’s halfway between the two, but it’s a bit dull. I remember when we first got married, we got a house back in the ’70s. We thought we were really chic. We got ourselves an avocado bathroom set. Oh, my God. What a mistake?

John: That’s hilarious. Because it came out like the kiki green-ish?

Graeme: Yeah.

John: That’s very funny. Just you describing it makes me hate the color, and I don’t even know what it looks like. So very well done. It’s a bathroom set. I have to ask — this is an important one — toilet paper, roll over or under?

Graeme: Over.

John: Over. Okay, just making sure it didn’t change as you cross the ocean there. How about a favorite animal? Any animal.

Graeme: Black panther.

John: Oh, good answer.

Graeme: That’s my dream animal, though I actually have had Labradors since I was eight. And my present Labrador, Merlin, is a yellow lab. I absolutely adore him as well.

John: Very cool. Very cool. Do you have a favorite actor or actress?

Graeme: Derek Jacobi. I think he’s a great actor. I think he’s really underrated.

John: And we got two more, two more. When you’re traveling, especially when you’re flying, more window or aisle seat?

Graeme: Well, I prefer the window seat, but I’ll take the aisle seat because I don’t want to disturb people when I get up to go to the toilet.

John: Right. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And the last one, the favorite thing you own or the favorite thing you have?

Graeme: Well, if I ignore my wife, in one sense, the first time I’ve been allowed to ignore my wife, it would be my dog Merlin.

John: Nice. Very cool, which was the lab that you talked about. That’s awesome, man. That’s very cool. What a great start to this episode. I know you mentioned it in the intro, but I’m so curious how someone from the UK has Yankee season tickets. How does that happen? Basically, let’s just jump right into that. Have you always been a baseball fan?

Graeme: No, no, I have been an American football fan for many years, many, many years and actually was able to have a secondment, two-semester secondment to Penn State and got really into it there. So when I came back to the UK, I was in an American football team over here where I lived. I guess long story very, very short, I got a phone call from Neil Austrian asking me if I wanted to join the NFL and be the financial controller for the London Monarchs. It took me all about two nanoseconds to say yes.

John: That’s so cool.

Graeme: I worked for them for about six or seven years. When I was crossing the States at their offices, of course, as part of a professional team who can get tickets to other professional teams in any way you want. So I thought I’d try looking around and see what anything on the other sports. Now, hockey, ice hockey, I have also liked for some considerable time. So I went to see the Rangers, and I asked if I could go and see the Knicks. They were playing, so it so happened I had to go to Boston and they gave me tickets to see Boston versus Milwaukee, the Bucks. I sat there anyway, two points, two points, two points, and I was absolutely bored to tears. But I then went to see the Yankees. I got tickets that I really could not afford now, just above the Yankees dugout as it turns out.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Graeme: And I turned to this couple sitting beside me, a man and his son. His son must be seven or eight, something like that. He said to him, “Look, you can tell by accent, I’m not local and I’ve never been to a baseball game before in my life. I’ve got to say, to get an eight-year-old baseball fan to describe it to you is perfect because he gave the absolute basics from there. With my knowledge and love of cricket and statistics and numbers and all the rest of it, I was hooked from that day. So this would be back in ‘91, ‘92, something like that. I was trying to get season tickets then because back in the old Stadium, you had to wait your time and I did wait my time. I guess it was about ‘97, it must be earlier, it’s ‘96, sorry, I got season tickets and I went there. I was sitting beside all these guys and got really into it. Of course, the new stadium, they raised the prices, shall we say.

John: By a multiple.

Graeme: Yeah, exactly. And they gave their premium ticket holders first choice. So by the time they got to ours, I was about halfway between third base and the foul pole. If I tell you exactly where it was, when Derek Jeter went in for the dive into the stands, if you see any of those photographs, you’ll see my feet and my son’s feet because we had two tickets.

John: That’s awesome.

Graeme: Yeah, but it’s our feet. We recognize our feet. No one believed.

John: Your shoes should be in the Hall of Fame.

Graeme: If anyone out there knows of a photograph taken from a different angle, because it was obviously taken from behind him, actually we can see our own selves and we can prove that we were there, then I’d love to hear about it. So anyway, so I fell in love that way. Even the new stadium, I was offered the bleachers tickets $10 apiece, and I thought I’m not coming all the way across spending several thousand pounds normally just to sit in a $10 seat in the bleachers which, of course, from about this time of the year onwards are indeed bleachers. I have sat in them a couple of times. So I thought right, I’ll hold that. And lo and behold, I did. So yeah, I got them and now my tickets are in Section 105, which means absolutely nothing if you don’t know Yankee Stadium. It’s in fair territory from the home base. It’s just to the left of the foul pole and about three up in those row 14. It starts at row 11.

John: Right. Because the way it angles there.

Graeme: It’s in a short porch. Lots of poles go over my head. I’ve never caught one in my life.

John: That’s so great. Just going back to when you asked people to explain the rules of baseball to you, I had that happen once. My brother and I were in San Francisco at a Giants game, and we were standing in the standing room only area in the back where Barry Bonds would hit all the homeruns into the water. And there was a college kid that was standing there who was from Austria, I think. And he said, “Can you explain to me the rules of the game?” And I’m like, “Sure.” So I started explaining. I’m like, this is the dumbest game ever. I don’t even know there are so many rules on top of rules because it’s like, well, if he hits the ball and has to go inside the lines or it’s a foul ball but if it’s a pop fly and they catch it outside the lines, then he’s out. But then if he’s — you know what I mean? There were so many different things. So we were kind of okay, and then in about the seventh inning, the pitcher balked. I was like, I don’t even know how to explain it. I can’t even explain it. I don’t even know either. He’s going to first like that’s it. It was pretty funny.

Graeme: You haven’t even got to the unwritten rules. Baseball has got so many of them.

John: Yeah. And now now you’re an expert. So next time that happens, I’m just going to call you and be like, “Can you explain it?” Because I’ve been playing since I was five, so I don’t know why I know all these dumb rules. But, man, what a crazy, crazy game. To explain soccer or football to people, it’s pretty simple. Just don’t use your hands. Unless you’re the people with the long sleeve shirts on and the gloves, then you can use your hands. But otherwise, don’t use your hands. It’s that easy. But baseball, it’s like, what? This is nuts. I didn’t realize how crazy that was until you had to explain it to someone. And then it was like, oh, man, my head hurts.

Graeme: You wait till you try to explain cricket to someone.

John: You know what? You should do that for me some time. I’ll come over and then we can go to a game, and now I have all the questions.

Graeme: You’ve got 12 people who are in till they’re out, then the 12 people that are out come in and then the others go in.

John: There you go. It’s that easy. Come on, John, pick it up. That’s really cool. So how many games do you get to a year?

Graeme: Probably about a dozen.

John: Nice. That’s fantastic. That’s probably more than New Yorkers, to be honest. You just fly in and then take the subway. You don’t eat at the park or anything.

Graeme: Yeah. Someone else pops the train for me.

John: There you go. Yeah, they’re playing. That’s fantastic. Very cool. And then, I guess, is this something that you talk about in the office? I guess since you’ve had them, do your co-workers know about this?

Graeme: My co-workers know about it, but none of them actually have any interest in it after the fact that they are all but one are British and the other one is Romanian. It so happens, we have a gender diversity issue because they’re all female.

John: Oh, wow. That is certainly an issue. I have your back on this one. Plus, it’s such a foreign game to them that they’re just like, whatever. But I mean, I’m sure after you take the trip and you come back, I’m sure they ask, how was it?

Graeme: They do indeed. Usually, they’re interested but more in the case of did I go shopping? Did I go to Sephora and pick anything up?

John: Right. The rest of the New York City experience.

Graeme: My daughters are very happy I go because they want me to go to Sephora. I’m probably one of the few people from over this side of the water who can go into any Sephora store anywhere in the world and get anything you want because I know exactly where it’s going to be.

John: That’s fantastic. You’ve just been to so many. That should be your passion actually. We should just talk about you shopping at Sephora.

Graeme: About four Christmases ago, five Christmases ago, I’ve got three kids, but two of them are girls. They gave me a t-shirt, a black t-shirt with writing on it. It says, “You don’t scare me. I’ve got two daughters.”

John: Right. You don’t even blink anymore at anything. You don’t even look both ways crossing the street. You just go. You’re like, “Whatever. I’m invincible.”

Graeme: Absolutely.

John: That’s very funny. Very funny. But I mean that’s so cool though. That’s your thing and then people know that about you. Do you have Yankee stuff in your office? Okay, that’s definitely a yes right there.

Graeme: Oh, yeah. I have the Yankee helmet when you get the ice cream in.

John: Oh, yeah. Right, the plastic helmet.

Graeme: Yeah. It so happens I’m drinking out of a Yankee’s well-known beer. I’m not drinking the beer. I’m drinking water, those ones with the built-in straw. I drink water in that. It’s got the entwined NY on it.

John: Yeah, you’re bringing it to the office which is really cool. Is that always been something that you’ve done in your career like sharing things, or is it just something now that you’re CEO, you’re like, “Look, no one else can yell at me, so I’m doing it”?

Graeme: No, ever since I fell in love with the Yankees, I have had people know about it. They know what I’m up to and why. If Michael Kay ever wants to retire, I’m taking his job.

John: Right. Yeah, I’m pretty sure there’s going to be a lottery for that as well. Yeah, you’re not the only one that wants that. Yeah, that’s a pretty sweet gig.

Graeme: I’m probably the only one in the lottery who doesn’t have an accent though.

John: Right. From your perspective. Everyone else is like, we have to practice — luckily, the Yankees doesn’t have an R in it or it’s the New York Yankees. We’re rolling the R.

Graeme: It’s like Sterling at the edge. The Yankees win. Yankees win. I can do it. I can do it with the New York Yankees win.

John: Right. See, and everyone will think that their reception just fuzzed out. That was weird. The signal got weird every time he says it. That’s very cool. I know that you also do acting, and especially Shakespeare acting, which I appreciate you not using the Old English on this podcast. Is that something that you’ve been doing since you were young, or was that more of a late development as well?

Graeme: Again, it’s one of my daughters. I’ve been a bit of a diva, at least my wife and my mother tell me so. But back when she was 11, she’s 33 now, she saw this advert to audition for a Shakespeare play. It was actually A Midsummer Night’s — no, it was Romeo and Juliet, sorry. She said, “I’d like to do that.” Okay, yeah, that’d be very good. So I think her mom took us to the first audition. I took her in her second audition. She got a call back. And that was in February, early February. And then the rehearsals were Mondays and Wednesdays from beginning of March all the way through to the end of May. I ended up doing that. It was fairly close. It wasn’t too, but the actual performance is in the open air outside a saintly home near-ish us, probably about 20-minute drive by the time you get to where it was. I took her there, dropped her, went back. By time I got back, I had like half an hour before I had to go back and pick her up again. So it took about two performances, and there are 10 performances over a two-week period.

I thought so solid. I was just going to stay here. I’d read a book or whatever. I got talking to this nice elderly lady who was there. She and I just talked generally and she knew I was coming because I told her that fairly quickly and what was going on. She said, “Next year, why don’t you try out for like a spear-carrier’s role? At least you’re there. You’re still sitting in the back doing nothing. Your daughter can do the big bit, and you get a spear-carrier roll and just come on and be a soldier patch or a member of the village or something like that.” It’s not a bad idea.

So the next year, I went to the auditions. We’re in rehearsals, the second rehearsals where we did the walk through the block and all the rest of it. I was sitting there, and the director, it turned out that the lady I’d be speaking to was actually the founder of the Children’s Shakespeare Company. She was co-directing with this other chap. The other director came to me and said, “Oh, Graeme, thank you very much.” And I went, “Yeah, what? Pardon? What for?” “I understand you’ve agreed to be our producer.” “Pardon? Two questions. First of all, when did I volunteer? And what the hell is a producer?”

John: Yeah, yeah, what does a producer do?

Graeme: Yeah, exactly. “By the way, I have a speaking part in this, so do I lose my speaking part?” “No, no, you can do that as well.” Okay. Some 17 years, I produced it as well. And as I said, whatever I could take a part, I would.

John: Do people that you work with come to these shows? Clearly, they want to hear more about that, I guess, than Yankees baseball.

Graeme: They do. We normally have an outing every summer. That’s the first one we have done is Midsummer Night’s Dream this time, but unfortunately there’s a lot of clashes. We’ve got various conferences and things like that that totally clash. So I’m only going to be what I refer to as the bar steward this time that.

John: You’re out there, man. You’re way more on stage than any of us. Maybe you get to sample some of the wares as the bar steward. You got to test it out. You can’t just like go.

Graeme: I have a very, very strict rule for myself. If I’m driving and I have to drive to get there, if I’m driving.

John: Okay, then yeah.

Graeme: Yeah, exactly.

John: Yeah, I hear you. I hear you on that. So do you feel like either one of these has benefited your career in some way? Because so many people think that passions outside of work are distractions. You’ve heard me speak, and I feel like it’s quite the opposite. How do you feel about that?

Graeme: The answer is both have helped. Obviously, my speaking voice. I have what is referred to in some of our conferences, as the voice of God. When I want people to be quiet or do something, I can go back into my diaphragm the way I’ve been taught at the Shakespeare. I can project so much that it will quiet an entire room of 250 to 500 people. But also from a public speaking point of view, I can stand up and I can deliver the way that I think is relevant, but not just normally, and also the delivery. We think back about really good orators. JFK was a good orator. Obama was a good orator. People are known not to be particularly good orators. One of things they do that is actually not noticeable unless you pay attention, whenever there’s a comma and the longest tail where there’s a full stop and it sometimes just draw things out a bit as I’m trying to do now to sort of explain and to show you what I mean. If you do that, when you’re public speaking as I’m sure you know, John, as having heard you, if you give pauses and such between, not long pauses, you don’t sound like you’re dumb, but it does allow people to actually listen to what you’re saying and to what you want them to say. So that’s the Shakespeare side of it, absolutely. As for the Yankees, it is such an icebreaker.

John: Oh, yeah.

Graeme: You what? You have Yankees. How? What? How did that go? Of course, there’s a story of how it came up. I’ve given you the five-second version of a two-hour story. There’s a story of how it came up. There’s a story of how I worked at the NFL which in itself is the sort of thing that people sort of say, “Oh, I’d love to have done that.” It’s knowing how to deliver and being able also to deliver something that people are actually genuinely interested in.

John: There you go, right. How big of a deal is that do you say when it comes to accountants and professionals, in general, to actually talk about things that are genuinely interesting?

Graeme: It is. If you think about it, virtually every firm I know say they are the trusted advisor of their clients and I hope, for their sake, they are. But when you speak to someone, the client takes a certain amount of things as said. When you go into a prospect, et cetera, you’re seeing them, they’re expecting you to be professional. They’re expecting you to have all the qualifications and to say that you want to be their trusted advisor and all of that is BS. What they want to know is, are you genuinely interested in them? And if you can bring them out, say, they got baseball fans or they’re Shakespeare fans or any of the other sort of things and you talk about that and get them to talk about their life and where they come, then that’s cool.

John: Yeah, I completely agree. But in your words, that’s so powerful to hear. Even if it’s not the same thing, let’s say they hate the Yankees, they’re Red Sox fans, then you still have something in common. Even if they don’t do any of the things that you do, at least they share theirs and now you both know more about the person behind the professional or within the professional, if you will, is really what it’s all about. Why do you think it is that we’re so reluctant, like why is that not the default for most people?

Graeme: Most people think that they need to impart their benefits or their goodies to someone. They sort of say, “If I’m going get this prospect actually come to me or someone to buy this service from me, whatever, I’ve got to convince them that I’ve got the silver bullet that they’d been looking for.” Having been a CFO, been a CEO in listed companies, et cetera, I know full well I don’t give a damn because I know full well they don’t have the silver bullet. I want someone who has a pocket full of nickel-plated bullets, I can pick off little things that I need here that’s worrying me, and therefore, as a prospect, that’s what I want to get the knowledge that they have the ability to have my benefits in mind.

John: That’s huge and it’s not talking about your expertise and all of your wisdom because you’re convincing them of something that they already believed. You’re like, “No, no, I really am smart.” They’re like, “We thought you were anyway. Why are you — the more you try to tell me you’re intelligent, the less I start to believe you.” That’s exactly it. I love that. There is no silver bullet. We just need some nickel-plated bullets that get the job done and from a basis of you genuinely care about me. That’s so perfect.

Graeme: If you can apologize to someone and mean it genuinely, “Sorry, I think you’re wrong, because…” or “I’m sorry, I misspoke,” and you genuinely do that because they feel that either you’re going to insult the person or you’re going to infer that you are insecure and you don’t really know what you’re talking about. With that in mind, I’m going to apologize to you right now because I have realized that actually Derek Jacobi is in The King’s Speech.

John: Oh, okay. All right. All right. What’s up? What’s up? No, no, I’m just teasing. I was just like, I felt like their name ring a bell.

Graeme: Colin Firth and Geoffrey Rush are the main —

John: Yeah, absolutely. Right

Graeme: With Helen Bonham Carter. But, yes, he is in it and I’ve totally forgotten that.

John: No worries. But he’s also before my time, so I appreciated you saying that because I’ve clearly lied about how old I am. But it is true. If you have that relationship with someone where you realize that you have kind of a friendly relationship that’s beyond just the business, whether it’s a co-worker or a client, then you’re able to have those frank conversations and it’s not insulting either way. The feedback isn’t critical anymore. It’s actually just feedback, or it’s just a question, because you have that relationship where you know that it’s not coming from a bad place, if you will. So that’s fantastic. Apology accepted, Graeme. Apology accepted. I apologize for butchering your name half the time that I say it.

Graeme: Well, I always say to people, don’t worry, because a lot of people call me Gordon Graeme, and a lot of people call me Gordon thinking it’s my surname. But I always say, don’t worry, my grandmother used to call me Glenn and that was the name of our dog at the time.

John: Oh, my gosh. That’s so perfect. So perfect. So do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that thinks maybe they do Shakespeare and they’re like, “Well, this has nothing to do with my job. Why should anyone care”?

Graeme: I think it can be very boring if you compare it to your own job, et cetera. I love my job. Don’t get me wrong. But without outside influences and what have you, I could be, and probably would be, exceedingly boring. No one would want to talk to me. I’d be the person in the corner.

John: Right. We’ve all seen it in all the offices.

Graeme: Yeah, absolutely.

John: But the passions in the outside of work interest give you some dimensions.

Graeme: Yeah, I think it does. It keeps you alive as well. Also, as I said earlier, it makes sure that when you’re talking to someone, you’ve always got some aspect that you can connect with. Like of six degrees of separation this day and age with podcasts and blogs and everything else, you’re probably talking about three degrees of separation. So you soon get to it. Even if someone that isn’t a baseball fan, for example, but their uncle Tiberius is a Boston Red Sox fans and hates Yankees, that gives you something to talk about and keeps them going. There are other things. I’m an ex-naval officer as well, so there’s all sorts of other things. I believe very much that the potpourri of one’s life is much more important to your own satisfaction and to your success in business.

John: Wow, I love that — potpourri of life. That’s very cool. So before I bring this in for landing and wrap it up, it’s only fair that I turn the tables back since I rapid-fire questioned you out of the gate. So I know you came ready, so I’m extra nervous. I’m not going to lie to you. So here we go.

Graeme: Do you still use your CPA skills at home?

John: Oh, absolutely. I’m running a business here. I’ve got profit and loss statements. I’ve got balance sheet. Yeah, absolutely. I’m running a business, man. When it comes to that, I can at least understand the financials. I understand when the expenses come in, how to categorize them, and I know what a trial balance looks like and all that. But anything beyond that, no, not at all. Actually, even if you talk to the people I worked with as a CPA, they would probably say those are more skills than you had when you worked here. So that’s impressive.

Graeme: Apart from eating green apples, what keeps you healthy?

John: Oh, wow. Well, here’s the secret fun fact. I’m not necessarily the healthiest individual when it comes to eating desserts and ice cream unless those count is keeping me healthy, those are definitely part of my diet. I guess I just try to walk or run somewhat regularly. When I lived in New York City, I would walk everywhere because you’re always walking somewhere. But now that I live in Denver, there’s a little bit less of that. But yeah, just trying to just stay moving, I guess, is the best for me.

Graeme: When you travel, you turn right or left on a plane?

John: I turn right. Yeah. I’m not up there in first class with you fancy pants recliner. If it’s international, I try to do the economy plus, I guess. So just a little bit of a step up there because I’m almost six-three and coach is not going to work for more than two to three hours. Yeah, I turn right. So there we go.

Graeme: As you live in Denver, do you hike in the mountains, climb the mountains, or just enjoy them with a martini?

John: Ah, probably enjoy with a glass of wine is more of it and then snowboard a little bit in the winter. I guess that goes to the not being healthy part of it.

Graeme: Those are my questions. Thank you.

John: Very cool, Graeme. So I appreciate you taking time to be with me today on the Green Apple Podcast. This was so much fun.

Graeme: It has been my pleasure, absolute pleasure.

John: If you’d like to see some pictures of Graeme at the Yankees game or maybe just his shoes with Derek Jeter diving or maybe on stage or connect with him on social media, be sure to go to greenapplepodcast.com. And while you’re on the page, please click that big green button there, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. It’s going to help for the book that I’m launching in October. And thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread which is to go out and be a green apple.