Abbey is a Marketer & Award-Winning Gardener
Abbey Kanellakis, a Senior Manager at Rea & Associates, talks about how she discovered her passion for gardening, when she realized being herself at work can benefit her career, forming The Committee of Awesomeness, and much more!
• Getting into gardening
• Succession planting
• Growing peanuts
• Being yourself in the office
• The Committee of Awesomeness
• Why it is both on the individual and the organization to promote an open work environment
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Stephen is a CEO & Gardener & Charity Worker
Stephen King, President and CEO of GrowthForce, talks about his experience as a concert promoter and how it plays a role in his career in accounting today! He also talks about how gardening and running a business are similar!
• Working as a concert promoter
• Being introduced to his first accounting client
• Getting into gardening
• Raging incrementalism
• Why it is hard to be open about hobbies at work
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Hannah is an Internal Auditor & DIY Crafter
Hannah returns to the podcast from episode 141 to talk about her latest hobbies in gardening and DIY crafting projects. She also talks about why she decided to step away from the fiddle and how she has been more aware of people sharing their passions in the office!
• Why she does not play the fiddle anymore
• Getting into crafting and gardening
• Some of her favorite DIY projects
• Being more aware of people sharing passions in the office
• Coffee chats at her office
• You do not need a work-self and authentic-self
• How sharing has improved her confidence and work performance
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Welcome to Episode 328 of What’s Your “And”? Follow-Up Friday edition. This is John Garrett, and each Friday, I follow up with a guest who had been on the show a few years ago to hear what’s new with their passions outside of work and also hear how this message might have impacted them since we last talked.
I’m so excited to let everyone know the book is out. You can order it on Amazon, Indigo, barnesandnoble.com, a few other websites, so check out whatsyourand.com for more. Thank you so much to everyone who’s read it so far and been kind enough to leave those Amazon reviews. Thank you just so, so much for that. It’s really overwhelming.
Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this Follow-Up Friday is no different with my guest, Hannah Horton. She’s an internal auditor with Humana in Louisville, Kentucky, and now she’s with me here today. Hannah, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?
Hannah: Hey, thanks for having me. I’m glad to be here.
John: This is gonna be awesome. It’s so much fun. First, I have my rapid-fire questions. We’re going to do seven here, get to know Hannah on a new level, if you’re ready.
Hannah: I’m ready.
John: All right, if you had to choose, Harry Potter or Game of Thrones.
Hannah: That’s hard because I love them both for different reasons. I’ll go with Harry Potter because that’s been in my life longer than Game of Thrones.
John: Okay, okay, all right. How about a favorite band or musician?
Hannah: Jason Isbell. I love Jason Isbell.
John: There you go. This is a tough one, brownie or ice cream.
Hannah: No, that’s easy for me, ice cream.
John: Okay, all right. How about a favorite adult beverage?
Hannah: Margaritas, for sure.
Hannah: On the rocks with salt.
John: Okay, all right, all right. Since my book’s out, and you were part of the launch team, which was awesome, thank you so much for that, Kindle or real books.
Hannah: Real book, for sure. I’ll go audio book sometimes, but I just cannot get into an e-book format.
John: Right. Yeah, it is a little different. That’s for sure. Two more. How about a favorite Disney character?
Hannah: That’s hard. For some reason, my first instinct was to go with a villain, Maleficent.
John: Okay. Yeah, there you go. That’s happened before. That’s awesome because they definitely stand out. The last one, toilet paper roll, over or under.
Hannah: Over, for sure.
John: Over. Yeah, there you go. All right. Episode 141, a little over two years ago, that was awesome. We were talking you and Abby had started taking fiddle lessons during busy season. That was just awesome. Are you still toying around with the fiddle?
Hannah: So, my fiddle update is that you will not be seeing me at the Grand Ole Opry anytime soon. I have not been practicing. I would say, when I still lived in Nashville, a couple things have transpired to the demise of my fiddle career. Abby and I used to go to the lessons on Saturdays. I would say the peak of my fiddle career was I did teach myself how to play My Old Kentucky Home during Derby, so that was cool.
Hannah: One thing I learned about myself, I don’t think we talked about this last time, I tried to play that in front of my family during our Derby party, and it was the most nerve-wracking. It was like 10 family members, but I was just like, oh my gosh, this is so terrifying. That kind of clued me in that I would not be doing this further.
John: Maybe you need a bigger audience. Maybe ten is too small for you. Maybe that’s it.
Hannah: I don’t think that was the — but I left public accounting, got into internal auditing, and I also moved from Nashville back to Kentucky. I think just not having the set time for lessons with an instructor just led to the downfall of the fiddle playing.
John: Sure. No, it happens. I understand totally, but it was a cool example and one that I used in the book, where I had some quotes from you and Abby of just how people knew you for the fiddle playing even though you weren’t Grand Ole Opry level. It was just something that you guys enjoyed doing, which was really cool to see, for sure.
Hannah: Yeah, for sure. I still have it. It’s in the corner of my office right now actually. I just don’t pick it up that often.
John: No, no, it’s all good. I know that you’re busy with other things, so I’ll let you share what those are.
Hannah: I have a couple of different things, especially since I’m out of public accounting. Now that I also bought a house, so I moved into a house, that has led to a lot of DIY house projects. I’ve always been kind of crafty, not artistic but crafty.
John: Okay, and what would you say is the difference between that?
Hannah: I can’t draw or paint something, but I’m crafty. I can make a Halloween wreath. I can paint something, but I can’t paint a picture.
John: I gotcha. Okay, all right. I thought crafty was like shady. That’s why I was like, all right, because people call me crafty too. So you really enjoy that side of it. That’s cool.
Hannah: Yeah, for sure. The DIY projects, especially just because we’re in the house. Obviously, when you’re renting, you can’t do as many projects. Also because we’re in a house now, I’ve also gotten into gardening, which is so fun. It was like a huge learning curve at first, to figure things out, but it’s so fun. Every morning, I would go out there and be like, what’s happened? What else has changed today? It’s so fun.
John: Yeah, because my wife and I have a garden, and she’s way into it. I think they only grow at night. Is that what happens?
Hannah: It’s insane.
John: You see them during the day, and they’re just hanging out. Then at night, it’s like, you just doubled in size. How did that happen?
Hannah: It’s seriously magic. I go out there, and I’m like, all of a sudden there’s a giant zucchini that was not here yesterday? This is amazing.
John: Right? So, what kind of things are you growing?
Hannah: My favorite thing is I did zucchinis, which had a very big learning curve for me. That was fun. My other favorite thing is cucumbers because I don’t love cucumbers, but I’ve been able to make pickles out of them. So I’m just so impressed with myself that I’ve been able to grow this and then make it into a pickle.
John: That’s a next level step. That’s not just, here’s a cucumber. It’s, now we’ve got to take that and then go pickle it and then wait. That’s impressive.
Hannah: Thank you. It’s actually easier than you would think it is, but it sounds very impressive.
John: Yeah. Well, don’t tell anybody that. Man, it is exhausting.
Hannah: Yeah, it’s hard work.
John: I’d explain it to you, John, but it’s just too hard.
Hannah: You wouldn’t get it.
John: Yeah, exactly, exactly. It’s like fiddle playing. It’s just, don’t worry about it. That’s super cool, though. Then the crafting, do you have some of your projects that have been more of your favorites?
Hannah: Oh, yeah definitely. Let’s see, the ones I’ve been most proud of, we built our kitchen table. That was a team effort. That was not just me, but I will take a lot of credit for it but not all the credit.
Hannah: Well, because I’m very into yard sales and thrift shopping as well, so I would never just go to a store and buy a brand new table. I was trying to find used tables that I liked, and I was like, well, for the price these people are charging, I can just make one that I really like. So, I looked at the plans, I went and bought all the supplies, I took it to my dad’s house. He did the more of the physical sawing, piecing together. Then once we got it together — there were three of us, four of us working on it, my dad, my boyfriend, me, my sister’s boyfriend. My sister did not help at all. She will not get credit. Once we finished putting it all together, we brought it back home. I painted it and then I stained the top and clear-coated the top. Now, there’s my kitchen table.
John: That’s fantastic. That’s super cool. Because there has to be a sense of pride and achievement in especially a kitchen table that you use daily, it’s got to be pretty awesome to be like, hey, we made this, sort of a thing. Where the zucchini, it’s like, well, it’s gone within one meal, but the table is — that’s really neat. Yeah, good for you. Because it’s not like, I’ll just go buy it; it’s, no, no, let’s make what I actually want and then taking the plans and tweaking them and then, yeah, making it your own. That’s cool.
Hannah: Really fun.
John: That’s super awesome, super awesome. Do you feel like people are sharing their hobbies and passions more now or that you’re more aware of it, in the last couple years?
Hannah: I would say I’m definitely more aware of it. Also, just the switch of jobs and companies and cultures, that’s also different. I feel like at my current job, there is a lot of sharing. I have a specific example for you that I thought would be good. My team specifically has what we call coffee chats, twice a week, for 30 minutes. They used to be in-person. We’re all remote now, so it’s a little bit different, but we’re still having them. These are times set aside specifically to talk about anything besides work. We’re not supposed to talk about work during these 30-minute blocks.
John: Nice. I love that.
Hannah: Yeah, so that’s a really good example of how my team specifically carves time out to talk about things that are not work. Sometimes it can be a little slow to start, or some people won’t really have things to talk about, but then once we get warmed up, it’s just talking with everyone about whatever they want to talk about, not work.
John: That’s super awesome. Do you do it as a group or are they one-on-ones?
Hannah: It’s as a group. Our department’s broken out into teams. We used to have a smaller team. It’s a little bit bigger now. There’s usually, I would say, between like four to eight people on each call.
John: That’s fantastic. It’s just not talk about work, which is cool. Yeah, and how often do you guys do this?
Hannah: We do this twice a week, 30 minutes each times.
John: Oh, wow. That’s incredible. Yeah, yeah. Because I’ve heard of other examples of one-on-ones, monthly or whatever, but twice a week, and it’s just for 30 minutes. Your work is still getting done. It’s not like, oh, well, we’re going to need you to come in on Saturdays to make up for that 30 minutes, twice a week.
John: Type of thing. If anything, I would imagine that work gets done better now.
Hannah: Yeah. You definitely make connections with everyone on the team. Because especially working remotely, some of these people, I’m not on jobs with, so I wouldn’t even be talking to them at all. So then having them on the call, and then just saying, what did you do this weekend? The last coffee chat, we ended up talking about some fantasy football leagues, we were talking about Jurassic Park because that’s what I’m reading right now, so just all kinds of stuff.
John: That’s cool. Do you feel like it makes a difference when it’s a dedicated time for that, in creating these relationships with people?
Hannah: Yeah, definitely, especially being remote. Because in person, you would see them sitting next to you or when you’re walking in or going to get coffee, and just be like, hey, what did you do this weekend? Since you don’t have that, working remote, these specific two sessions a week carve that time out.
John: Yeah. No, I love that. I love that so much. That’s awesome. I would imagine, because I feel like it’s one of those things where, even if you were in person, if you just let people decide, they probably won’t do it, type of thing. The fact that you have dedicated time, okay, everybody, show up to this. Is it something that you get excited for? Or is it something like a CPE training where you’re like, oh, God, got to go sit through this?
Hannah: No, it’s fun. The first one we have is Monday morning at nine, so it eases you into your workweek where you don’t have to work at the beginning of the day.
Hannah: Just kind of ease into it.
John: Yeah, plus, make sure you woke up, Monday morning. How crazy was your weekend? Somebody shows up. Their hair’s all messed. Oh, boy, you don’t even have to answer. We know. Margaritas, there it is. No, that’s really cool to hear. Do you have any words of encouragement for people listening that might think, I’ve got this hobby or this interest that has nothing to do with my job, so no one’s going to care?
Hannah: Yeah, I would just say, don’t be afraid to show up to work with your authentic self. Don’t feel like you have to have a work self and a real life self. You only need to be one person, and your hobbies don’t have to be super adventurous or super glamorous. Mine is like, I’m in a book club, and I garden. It’s not that glamorous, but it’s what I do. People know that’s what I do.
John: But you’re making pickles, and it’s interesting. It’s fascinating. There’s stuff to it.
Hannah: Yeah, same thing for anyone else that has any kind of hobby that they want to share, especially people that are newer to the working world might feel like they need to not share that side of them. So, I would just say, share your authentic self, be real, be you.
John: Yeah. It’s almost like, if you feel like you shouldn’t, then that’s twice the reason you should. Because when you’re brand new, you’re the same as everyone else. Especially when you’re at a bigger organization, what makes you different than everyone else is not how great you are at the technical skills because everyone else also has the same technical skills, type of thing. So, being a real person is something people gravitate towards. Like you said, even you feel like yours are not that exciting, but people still know and ask you about it. I feel like too, we’re critical of ourselves because it’s what we do. Like you’re telling me, you designed and built a table or tweaked plans to build that table and then painted and all. I’m like, what? That’s awesome. To you, you’re like, it’s a Tuesday, whatever. It is what I do.
Hannah: Yeah, we’re definitely more over-critical of ourselves, but hearing something from someone else that they may not think is a big deal, you decide you would be like, wow, that’s so cool. I would never think to do that, or I would never do that.
Hannah: One of my friends that I work with, she plays pickleball. We played a couple of weekends ago, and I was like, this is so fun. I’ve never played this before.
Hannah: Just things like that, if you’re not sharing, people aren’t going to know that’s what you do.
John: Yeah, or that it’s even a thing.
John: You show up with your homemade pickles, and you’re like, I’m ready. It’s like, no, Hannah, different.
Hannah: Different pickle.
John: Different pickle. Different crafty. Come on now. That’s really cool to hear, really cool to hear. It’s not just like theory. It’s in the real world. That’s great.
Hannah: Also, I feel like sharing your real self has made me, in my experience, feel a lot more comfortable, and it’s made me feel a lot more confident around people at work. That leads to just better work, in general, for being able to come forward and saying, hey, actually, I want to do this, or I’m interested in doing this, which I wouldn’t feel comfortable doing if I felt like I was strictly in work mode, professional mode.
John: No, it totally makes sense because that’s the thing is, work is always changing. There’s new technology. You get a new job. You get promoted at the company. You’re using a different skill set. Things are always changing, changing, changing, changing, and that rock that never changes is those outside-of-work interests. The DIY craftiness, the gardening, that’s with you. Even if you get promoted or you go to a different job or whatever, that still comes with you. The logoed computer bag changes, or the fleece or whatever. Yeah, that is a source of confidence. Sadly, we let that go first. It’s like, no, no, that’s what you let go last. Let go of everything else first. That’s really cool to hear that that’s what you’re feeling. That’s awesome, very cool.
Well, this has been so great, catching up, Hannah. This is so much fun. It’s only fair that before I close it out that I turn the tables and allow you to question me. This is the first episode of the Hannah Horton podcast, everybody. I’m glad to be a guest. Thank you so much.
Hannah: Yes, welcome. I have a couple rapid-fire questions for you.
John: Okay, all right.
Hannah: All right, let’s see. Are you more puzzles or board games?
John: Oh, that’s a good one. I’m going to go board games because that satisfaction of beating someone else is great. It’s just great. Puzzles, it’s like, well, you know.
Hannah: That’s a little more relaxing.
John: Yeah, yeah. I was supposed to win.
Hanna: All right, more Airbnb or hotel.
John: Oh, that’s actually a tough one. I might go Airbnb where it’s more of just dropping into the local. Especially in another country, that’s always fun because then you’re in a house of what it’s normally like there, sort of thing. Yeah, I’ll go Airbnb on that.
Hannah: I agree with you on that one. I love searching Airbnb. It leads up to the anticipation of the trip, for me, of searching all the fun Airbnbs to stay in.
John: Yeah, and plus, there are cool, little quirky places that it’s like, all right, when else are you going to stay in a, whatever, a tree house in the middle of the jungle in Australia or whatever. Well, there we go.
Hannah: We went to San Francisco, one time, and we stayed on a boat, like a boathouse.
John: There you go. Right? When’s that going to happen? Why not? Right? That’s awesome.
Hannah: All right, one more. Since it’s fall, pumpkin spice or hot chocolate.
John: Oh, hot chocolate all day. It doesn’t even have to be fall. I’ll do it in the middle of summer. Yeah, hot chocolate, I am definitely — I mean, the pumpkin people can go nuts. I like pumpkin pie, but drinking it, it’s not my — yeah, hot chocolate, and I’m definitely a hot chocolate snob.
Hannah: What do you mean? You need fancy hot chocolate, or you need to prepare it a certain way?
John: Starbucks chocolate is three thumbs down. It is not good. It’s funny because whenever people want to meet for coffee, I always put in the email, coffee/hot chocolate, because when we show up, I’m going to order hot chocolate. They giggle, like, I’m seven. I’m like, well, maybe I am, but it’s good. I’ve had several people be, well, if I knew you’re going to do that, I would have gotten hot chocolate. Well then why didn’t you just get hot chocolate? Who cares?
Hannah: Okay, I agree with the stance.
John: It’s not like a sippy cup. It’s an adult mug, and it’s hot chocolate and, yes, whipped cream and, yes, whole milk. Yes. If you’re going to make some hot chocolate, don’t try and skimp on the good stuff.
Hannah: I support that.
John: That was a little bit of a tangent there. Now we’re all learning about John. No, but it’s been so cool catching up with you, Hannah. Thanks so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”?
Hannah: Thanks, and congrats on your book.
John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Hannah and some of her projects, or connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to buy the book.
Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.
Clayton is an Accounting Technologist & Gardener
Clayton Oates returns to the podcast to talk about how he is satisfying his travel bug through the pandemic, his gardening, helping small businesses, and taking time for yourself!
• Places he visited in the last couple of years
• Traveling locally
• Getting into gardening
• Becoming more aware of other people’s hobbies
• Shifting focus towards helping small businesses
• Finding an And for retirement
• Taking time to be still with your own thoughts
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to do John’s anonymous survey
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Welcome to Episode 318 of What’s Your “And”? Follow-Up Friday Edition. This is John Garrett. Each Friday, I follow up with a guest, who had been on the show a few years ago to hear what’s new with their passions outside of work, and also hear how this message might’ve impacted them since we last talked.
I’m so excited to let everyone know that my book is out. You can order it on Amazon, Booktopia, IndiGo, barnesandnoble.com, and a few other websites, so check out whatsyourand.com for more. Thank you so much to everyone who’s read it so far and been kind enough to leave those Amazon reviews. It’s just so overwhelming to read those. Thank you so, so much for that.
Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. This Follow-Up Friday is no different with my guest, Clayton Oates. He’s the founder of QA Business in Australia. Now, he’s with me here today. Clayton, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?
Clayton: Good day, John. Mate, it’s awesome being here. It’s always fantastic catching up with you, mate. So yeah, thanks for inviting us back.
John: Oh, for sure. Absolutely. You were in the book, you were part of the book launch team. I just appreciate you being a friend for so many years and being a part of this, so that really means a lot.
Clayton: Oh, mate. My pleasure. And yeah, just being a part of this project with you is awesome, the way you sort of brought people together and sort of it brought their stories to life and actually so that others can actually experience and share and learn from what we’re all sort of doing outside of our professionalism and keeping it weird as you’d say, so that’s fantastic.
John: Right? I mean, for you and me, it was already weird, so it doesn’t matter. We got this. But I have seven rapid fire questions to ask you here really quick, things I’ve never asked you before and I probably should’ve before we hung out the first time now that I think about it, but here we go. All right. If you had to choose, Harry Potter or Game of Thrones?
Clayton: Oh, I’ll go Harry Potter, mate.
John: Okay. All right. How about a favorite band or musician?
Clayton: I’ve been listening to a bit of Journey lately. So yeah, I’ll go Journey right now.
John: Yeah, writing a book was definitely a journey as well. How about this? A tricky one. Brownie or ice cream?
Clayton: Brownie with ice cream?
John: Oh, okay. I see. That’s actually the right answer. That was a trick. That is the right answer. Combo. How about a least favorite vegetable?
Clayton: I would have to say — is cucumber — is that a vegetable or fruit?
John: Yeah, cucumber. It counts. I’ll take it
Clayton: Yeah, I can’t stand it if. It’s been anywhere near a salad or anything I’m about eat, for some reason, I am so allergic to cucumbers.
John: Okay, how about pickles? Do you do the pickles or –?
Clayton: No. Nothing. They’re in the same family, I believe.
John: No, it’s actually pickles or cucumbers that are just pickled. But yeah, some people are — one’s behind but not the other. I think that’s funny to me.
Clayton: Can we hang up now? I think I’ve just learned something.
John: Right. It’s almost like you read my book. You’re like, oops, my brain hurts. How about Kindle or real books?
Clayton: Real books. I’ve got a stack of them. But I’ve also — using Audible quite a bit as well.
John: Oh, audio. Okay, nice. Yeah, mine will be probably in about six months or so. For everybody listening, that’s like, “We like his voice. It sounds like Super Dave Osborne.” Well, there you go. All right. Here we go. Chocolate or vanilla?
Clayton: Chocolate. I am an absolute chocolate addict. It’d be chocolate.
John: There you go. This is an important one. Toilet paper roll. Over or under?
Clayton: Just on the side, actually. Have you seen those?
John: Right. Where they’re sitting up.
Clayton: I haven’t taken a lot of notice. I do know that you’re talking about this recently, and I think over because that’s the way my wife makes the house work.
John: Yeah. That’s the right answer also.
Clayton: I dare not change that.
John: Yeah, dare not change that. That’s awesome, man. Well, you were Episode 160 which is just awesome to have you back. We were talking world travel and how you grew up not really traveling even for a long time, and then all of the sudden in the last like 10, 12 years just going through passports because they’re filling up. Since we talked, are you still doing some travel? I know you were because we hung out in Denver, which was super fun.
Clayton: Yeah, in February. Well, actually my passport expired in April. I haven’t renewed it yet, because who knows what their passport’s going to actually look like post-COVID. It filled up, John. I sort of went back and counted the trips and 32 trips in ten years. It’s just been incredible from none before that. I’ve had this burst of 32 in ten, and then obviously, the last six months or so, you know, none. I’m still passionate about that, and that’ll come again at some later stage, but right at the moment, yeah, that passion is on hold. It’s in hibernation right at the moment.
John: Exactly. It’ll happen again, for sure. It was just so fun having you in Denver. I mean, you messaged me, and you’re like, “Hey, I might be coming to Denver.” I’m like, “When?” You’re like, “Tomorrow.” I’m like, “You live in Australia.” Like what? You had already been in the U.S., you just grabbed a flight to Denver, which was super cool, and we got to hang out. That was awesome. It was your first time here, yeah?
Clayton: It was, and I absolutely loved it. There’s a lot of other people that listen to this podcast, and they’ll go, yes, he’s done exactly the same thing to me. Look, if you’ve traveled and you’ve gone somewhere, and you know you’re in the area or in the vicinity of someone that you know, why not take that little extra step to just reach out to them? Well, a lot of times, especially corporate travel and so forth, we tend to sort of in and out, you know, I’m there for this purpose and, “Hey, I’ll catch up with you next time,” or maybe you don’t even message them.
But what an amazing ability to be able to go part way around the world, know that someone that you know lives nearby, even if it’s a flight, in that case, and just say, “Hey, I’ve been thinking I’m coming there, how about we catch up?” The fact that you just said, yeah, let’s do this. I think that’s just a real special part about being able to travel.
John: Yeah, for sure, because then you get to hang out in person, and you get to see the city, you get to feel it and smell it and touch it and all that. It’s just so much more fun. Then I can give you a gentle hug as opposed to the big pick you up bear hug that I gave you in Boston that we still talk about. I cracked a rib.
Clayton: It was worth it.
John: Lawsuit pending. Hopefully, there’s statute of limitations in Australia.
Clayton: I think we’re good.
John: Okay, good, because then I can visit and not get arrested.
John: But no, that’s so awesome. Were there other places that you visited in the last couple years since we talked?
Clayton: Yeah, U.S. a couple of times. Bora Bora was one in the South Pacific, which was sort of this, I’d like to thank Expensify for that, actually, they were the guys that brought a heap of us together over there. That was an absolute bucket list, dream come true moment. But probably since COVID, really, I’m still traveling a little bit around our local area, being in your own backyard, in our state, for example. We’re pretty much locked down here at the moment between states. So yeah, sort of discovering just the road trips, and being able to visit places in your own area is — it’s calming, actually, it’s sort of this, you’re bringing a little bit more sort of order and stillness to your life.
I haven’t necessarily missed the international travel. I do love it. I’m really looking forward to when it happens again. I love 14 hours on an airplane by myself, which is fantastic, because it’s just this totally selfish sort of me time, which is if you go for 20 hours, I’m totally happy with that. I’ve learned to like it and really enjoy it. But yeah, at the moment, jump in the car, go and explore some areas, have weekenders away in our local area with the family, so it’s been great.
John: Yeah, that’s really cool, man. Really cool. Also, some gardening as well. I see it on your social media anyway, and some other hobbies that you’re picking up since travel’s not as much.
Clayton: Yeah, I mean, we’ve got a few acres here, we’re so fortunate to have a bit of space around us, especially at this time, so I feel incredibly blessed about that. But we’re in a sort of sub-tropical area where everything grows. In fact, it’s raining outside at the moment. I’m here in shorts and T-shirts, so sort of subtropical, rich, red volcanic soil, so everything just jumps out of the ground.
I think for me, you know, the gardening side, it sort of was born out of necessity to maintain the space. But interestingly, I’ve sort of found that sitting on a ride on lawn mower, mowing a few acres of land, it takes it to a Zen state. And I think there’s only a couple of other, you know, moments in your life when you’re in that sort of creative Zen state. I think there’s only a couple of other moments in your life when you’re in that sort of creative Zen state. It’s like you’re doing something, but you’re also nice and relaxed, and then you’re able to think and think creatively.
I found that also, in taking long drives on country roads, which probably isn’t a great thing. You should be concentrating, you’re driving.
John: No one else is coming the other way, so you’re fine.
Clayton: I say also, maybe having a shower, your thoughts pop into your head in that state, and maybe sit in the bathroom. It’s like, well, I should take a notepad. Well, most people take their phones these days, so you can easily take notes.
John: Yeah, and it’s just cool to hear like, there’s a finished result at the end.
Clayton: Yeah, love that.
John: It’s an immediate result of boom, there it is. I did that.
Clayton: It might be a guy thing perhaps, but I’ve got a lot of hedges and I’ve got this petrol hedge trimmer and some of these are now 15 feet high, actually. Here I am on these trestles, and, oh, they’re going to go a bit higher, trestle on a trestle, not a good look, that’s for sure.
I’m in the office here now I’m looking around and I can see these hedges and look, the accountant brain in me, I fest up to my OCD, that’s for sure. They’re all nicely lined up, they’re at the right height, and they look fantastic. What I need now is just some sort of hedge growth retardant that actually sits them at that level. I think the British comedy guys, The Goodies were trying to introduce something like that in the ‘70s, so anyone that can come up with that, I think it might be these days, plastic, but if that could be done, oh, wow. I’d be a very happy guy.
John: That would be amazing, yeah, because I mean, two days later, something’s going to pop up. You’re like, I got to get it, because you can’t just have one.
Clayton: It’s a bit like your inbox isn’t? It’s like, I think I’m inbox zero. Hang on. Here’s another one. I’m inbox 11,000. I don’t really care about that.
John: I’m way up there as well. I have a friend of mine that tried to brag about his inbox zero. I’m like, well, how do you — he’s like, well, I have a folder that is things that I’ll get to, but that’s just your inbox.
Clayton: That’s cheating.
John: That’s cheating. It’s totally cheating.
Clayton: I think we need a serious audit on these guys that call this. But yeah, that gardening thing has been great. I think you just refer back to that, you know, the ancient Roman, Cicero, I think talked about this, what you need is a great library and a great garden for sort of peace of mind. The library site is, you know, probably reading and gardening I think my go-to things since sort of the COVID happened, and since the international travel has been put ice at the moment.
John: That’s awesome, man. That’s so cool to hear. Do you feel like people are sharing their hobbies and passions more, or maybe you’re more aware of it?
Clayton: I think I’m more conscious of actually exploring what other people are doing in that space. I mean, your book actually talks about what these guys are doing outside of their work, and probably our conversation has triggered that curiosity in me for sure. I probably wouldn’t have thought about it much if we didn’t speak about it, and you didn’t actually bring attention. Particularly at the moment, you sense that people have gone from one of two directions, they’ve either gone all work or all sort of not chilled out, but all sort of concerned about the future.
They’ve probably forgotten a little bit, and I had. I certainly had. I sort of took a while to find Santa in this new world that we’re finding ourselves at the moment. Whilst work, you know, for me too, I also did find myself back into my work a bit as well, more the roots just to where I’ve come from, and actually helping small business. I lost touch with that a little bit, and learned to teach. I think there’s been so many changes in the last number of months around the world with government support programs, and how to help small business and the money side of things, and the compliance. I decided to learn a lot of that in Australia, Australian conditions, and teach it.
I’ve run a lot of webinars, a lot of the free informational webinars for small business. It’s turned out that there’s a reach, our database, if you like, or our business reach has doubled in the last six months, and it took just 25 years to get to the first part. Then in six months, the reach was doubled, because we’ve focused really on helping other people try and navigate their way through this situation that we’re finding ourselves in.
A lot of professionals have that opportunity, you know, because the stuff that we sort of take for granted, or maybe we found a little hard to learn, why not teach it, and actually share it with others in a way that’s simple, and that others can then relate to it because there is a lot of concern, there’s a lot of anxiety, there’s a lot of pressure and stress out there. What can we do to actually relieve that pressure cooker situation? That’s been incredibly fulfilling for me, and partnering with others doing that.
John: Yeah, no, that’s really cool. At some point, you get out of the fire, if you will, and then let’s create that relationship as two humans on what is your “and?” What do you like to do? Who are you as a person, because then you could actually serve them for real, as opposed to just giving them financials and a bank statement that’s balanced or something.
Clayton: Oh, absolutely. It’s so relevant to you know, my business world has been accounting, bookkeeping, consulting and technology companies. Taking the moment to sort of find out when you’re working with a small business owner and operator, why are you doing this? Instead of maybe that straight up question, talk about their “And,” because it’s probably an easy way to have a conversation, what do you do outside of work? What do you enjoy doing? What would you wish you could do more of? Suddenly you then can help connect some dots to actually help them or enable them to achieve more of that.
We don’t get up in the morning and go great, I get to go to work today and I get to sort of you know, a timesheet or whatever. No. We’re doing it because we want this. It’s sort of a pathway to get through to get to something else. But the reality is if we can combine both and keep both happening at the same time, and then you’ve got your “And” all the way through anyway.
John: Right, and it’s an “And,” it’s not an “Or.” You can do both, and you should have these other dimensions to who you are.
Clayton: I mean, imagine working your whole life and you get to the R word, which I don’t like to talk about, of the end of your working career, and then you’ve got to find an “And.” That’s sort of a 50-50 hit and miss. Oh, my gosh, if I do or I don’t, It’ll be all over pretty quickly. There’s a great book that I’ve just finished reading called the Second Mountain. David Brooks wrote it. Hugh Jackman actually recommended off the back of a podcast I was listening to.
It talks about the first mountain that we tend to all climb is sort of this achievement, goal- orientated, work-related, I get to my pinnacle of my career, maybe achieve business success, it could be financial freedom, whatever that is. But then there’s a valley pretty much after that, and then there’s this second mountain. A lot of people maybe don’t even get to experience the value until end of working life.
Getting to experience that earlier on, if you’re having a valley at the moment. That’s okay. This is normal, because then there’s another mountain, and it’s not the same mountain as the first one. It is different. This might be around fulfilment or purpose, more purpose, and so helping others, so forth. You hear people talk about this all the time. You think, why would they be talking about that? Because they’ve gone through this first mountain achievement, deep valley, aha moment. There is another mountain.
John: There’s another mountain. Just keep going. Yeah, I love that man. Well, there goes my second book idea. I’m going to write the third mountain. That’s what I’m going to write, it’s going to be — what’s that mountain? I don’t know.
Clayton: It’s a range.
John: It’s the one when you turn at the wrong sign. Somebody switched the sign up, then you go the wrong way, so you miss the second one. But that sounds awesome, man. That’s exactly what it is, and then talking to people with the consultancy that I’ve done and stuff is a lot of people like, I’m going to go retire and I don’t know what I’m going to go do or you have these “Ands” along the way, because it makes work better, but it also makes retirement better too.
Clayton: Oh, absolutely. Taking the time to sort of be still, you know, pause and reflect. I’ve read so many books. I’m an avid reader anyway. But this time has given me more time to actually read. Stillness is the Key, Ryan Holiday. Any Ryan Holiday book is awesome. Also, James Clear, Atomic Habits is a great book. But the Stillness is the Key, you know, sort of the stoic philosophy or most around just taking time out to be still in your own thoughts, is something that we tend to run from or we’re not geared to do, particularly in the corporate world. It takes discipline, and discipline will give you freedom, basically.
To be still in your own thoughts, to take time to do that, whether it’s just getting up half an hour earlier in the morning, and there’s a lot of people who meditate, some people just start reading, or just pin thoughts, journaling, for example. I think, as a society or humanity, we’re starting to sort of shift more to that sort of direction, even though our mainstream media might not be portraying that, I think there’s a groundswell of the masses that are getting this.
John: No, that’s awesome to hear, man. That’s so awesome. This has been so much fun catching up with you, and man, now I’m learning like, holy cow, man. This is awesome. Now I have books to check out too. This has been great. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe thinks no one cares about my hobby, or it has nothing to do with my career?
Clayton: It probably doesn’t even matter whether someone cares or not. It’s what you think, and what’s going on in the conversation between your ears. Just pause and reflect. If you don’t have something, no one’s going to check up on you. No one’s going to sort of say, “Hey, you need to have this, you should do this.” They’ll just get benefits from having things outside of there’s one dimension of life, and probably looking and prioritizing too, you know, I think, talking about this COVID time, it’s like, what are our priorities? More perhaps going back to our family, friends connection with others, personal development perhaps, and getting in touch with ourselves more. I know, it sounds like airy-fairy off with the pixies, and I do live in sort of an alternative part of the country.
John: Right. No, but you’re right. I mean it’s for sure. It’s what matters. I think that this really threw on the parking brake, as we’re going down the interstate at 90 miles an hour or whatever, to what really matters, and who are you as a person, because worker B is not who you are, you’re more than that. Really getting to realize that, and understanding that the work will get done, and there’s always more work to get done.
John: I think just having blind faith. Things will work out. They will work out and whatever that work out is, it is. I know this is hard to fathom when you’re writing amongst a crisis, or either self sort of inflicted or existential crisis of some sort that’s out of your control perceivably, but things will work out. I’ve got a timeline and just remove our expectations around anything other than that. It’s sort of frees up, sort of clears some blockages perhaps along the way that we might be holding ourselves back.
John: Very true. That’s awesome, man. Well, it’s only fair that before I wrap this up that I allow you to question me since I started out the episode peppering you with questions. This is now the Clayton Oates podcast. I’m your first guest. Thanks so much for having me on, man.
Clayton: Well, welcome, John. I really should’ve prepared. Well, I suppose one thing to ask you is — and referencing probably to the COVID time right now, we’ll get through that pretty quickly, is what’s changed in your world in the last six months?
John: Everything. I mean, yeah, I would be on airplanes flying to conferences, speaking on stages in front of live audiences. Now, you know, not so much, or not at all really. Some virtual things. I’ve also found that with my comedy background as a professional comedian for years and Emmy nominations and things that people want that. They want a distraction, they want some funny they want just, hey, our people are really buried right now. Can you just give them some relief? Sort of a thing.
I’m also finding that the What’s Your “And”? message applies even more now to this where people before were a little bit skeptical or whatever, now they see, “Oh, wow. Yeah.” Because I didn’t actually have a real relationship with the people I worked with. I passed them in the hallway, “Hey, how are you?” “I’m fine, you’re fine.” Okay. But now that we’re virtual, we’ve been in each other’s homes, we’ve seen the art on the walls, or the kids yelling, or the dogs barking. I don’t have anything to talk to you about, because I don’t really know who you are as a person. It’s really just getting cultures to be built around people’s outside-of-work interests. I think the need is even more now.
Clayton: Wasn’t a question I had written down or anything was, what is your “And,” and how has it changed?
John: That’s a great question. My end is definitely college football, and ice cream. They’re still making ice cream, so we’re good on that. They almost didn’t have college football, but they’re having it, especially Notre Dame is playing. That’s my school. I’m excited. They have their games already, and so yeah, I’m just excited for the season and see what happens. About two-thirds of the schools are playing, and then about a third or half aren’t. I know that that doesn’t add up to one, everybody listening, but that’s why I’m not in accounting anymore. There you go.
Clayton: Look, another thing I’d need to sort of touch on is your book. I loved it. It’s fantastic. It’s a great read. I commend you on putting pen to paper there. What have you learned through the book writing experience? I know there’s a lot of people out there that are probably thinking, I’ve got a book in me. I know, this could be a podcast in itself, or a whole series of it. But you know, someone’s thinking, I’ve toyed with the idea, maybe they’ve lost a bit of confidence, perhaps they thought their story isn’t worth telling, or they just feel as though they’ve put it on the shelf. What would you say to someone that’s thinking, I’ve got it in me, or I had it in me, can I reignite it?
John: Yeah, well, first of all, thank you so, so much for those kind words, because when I’m on stage speaking, I can adjust on the fly, and make things happen for that audience that I’m in front of in the moment. But on a book, I’m not sitting there with you as you read it to be like, oh, wait. Skip the next five pages, you’re not going to like that part type of thing. That’s what was really hard was just writing it that way to make it approachable for everyone.
I guess for me, I wrote the book, because as a speaker, a lot of people don’t really give you credit for coming up with your own ideas or your own concepts or your own philosophy. I wanted to have the book to be like, no, no, here it is. This is the Bible of sorts of here’s my stuff. Read it. That’s what I talk about is my thing. I’m not giving a book report of what other people wrote in their books, they can speak on that, because that’s stealing if you talk about their stuff.
You really got to want to write it. I mean, it’s hard. It’s a journey. Everything gets thrown in your way from the universe to stop you from writing this. There’s a great book called The War of Art by Steven Pressfield. It’s for creatives. But I love that book. I kind of look at my book as the war of art for professionals. It’s just a no nonsense, just micro chapters, here it is, boom. In that book, it just talks about how there’s going to be just obstacles nonstop if you’re actually creating this really great thing that should be out in the world.
You just have to believe in yourself, and then just write a little bit every day. It’s a momentum thing. Don’t even give yourself a word count, just write. Some days, I would write one chapter and be like, all right, that’s it. That’s all I got. Then other days, I would just be firing away, just like I’m in the zone and whatever, but you have to sit down and write every day. It’s also write twice as many words and then it edits down. It’s like cooking spinach maybe, where you start out with a big heaping pile of it, and then by the time that it’s in the pan for ten minutes, it’s all of a sudden, where’d it all go? It’s all just wilted down. Just write and write and write and write. Also, there’s so many books. Why is yours different? And lean into that.
Clayton: I love that message that. One word you sort of touched on, there was the authenticity, it’s authentically you. I suppose for anyone listening, whatever you put down, it’s going to be you in there. There’s a methodology and a process and all of that, that sort of fits around the creation of something like this. But the fact that this is probably why there are so many books, there’s so many people and so many stories to be told, and someone is going to benefit from hearing your story.
John: Exactly. Yours isn’t going to be the worst one, trust me. I’ve seen some terrible books. Write it and then, but know why you’re writing it and to become a famous author is not the answer. It’s because I have this story, and I need to get it out there. Okay, great. Jeannie Ruesch, who I had on the podcast, who’s a fiction writer —
Clayton: She’s awesome.
John: And she’s awesome. She told me the greatest advice is once you’ve written it, your work is done. It’s on the readers now. It’s on you guys. If you like it, awesome. Thank you so, so much. If you don’t like it, also awesome, because I still wrote the book that I wanted to write. You just have to be confident in that. So yeah, no, that’s awesome. Well, your book’s coming soon, Clayton. You know what that means. There we go.
Well, it’s been so much fun catching up with you. I really appreciate you being a part of What’s Your “And”? for sure.
Clayton: Thanks, mate. It’s absolutely awesome always catching up with you, so I look forward to seeing you in person soon enough.
John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Clayton in action, or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. While you’re there, order the book. Clayton says it’s good. While you’re on the page, please click this big button and do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.
Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use, and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.