marathon running Tag

Welcome to Episode 531 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show’s about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t see how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast studio so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Zach Gordon. He’s a VP of accounting at Propeller Industries in New York City and was a CPA practice advisor 40 under 40. And now, he’s with me here today. Zach, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Zach: Thanks so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here.

John: Yeah, this is gonna be so much fun. I have some rapid-fire questions though. Get to know Zach out of the gate here. I’ll ask you the first one. I love this one. A favorite animal. Any animal at all.

Zach: Dog. Gotta be a dog.

John: Dog. Okay. All right. Going old school. I like it.

Zach: It solves the dog or cat question. That’s easy.

John: I’m not even asking you that one. There we go. Perfect. All right. 16 rapid-fire questions now. No, I’m just kidding. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw?

Zach: Well, given that we’re accountants, work with numbers, gotta be Sudoku.

John: Sudoku. There you go. I always joked that that’s how I do my tax returns.

Zach: You and me both.

John: You’re right. Yeah.

Zach: Kidding. Kidding. Anyone listening?

John: Right. It’s so annoying when you’re not a tax person and everyone thinks you should be. And it’s like no. Like we do more things than just tax, everybody.

Zach: Does every accountant do taxes?

John: Right? I mean, they do them. Are they right? Maybe, maybe not. Here’s a simple one for you. Favorite color?

Zach: Blue.

John: Blue. Mine too. There you go. How about a least favorite color?

Zach: That’s a great question. Some electric pinks out there I just can’t get behind.

John: Perfect. Yeah, neon anything really. But neon pink, yeah, that’s pretty high up there. Are you more of a talk or a text?

Zach: Text. I mean, getting on the phone more than we have to already. You know, the Zoom fatigue is real. Let’s put it that way.

John: Very real. And I appreciate you making time to do this podcast. Definitely. Because texting it back and forth would be weird.

Zach: That might take a little more time.

John: A little bit. A little bit. How about a favorite comedian of all time?

Zach: That’s a really interesting question. Probably have to go Chris Rock.

John: Oh, yeah. Solid. Yeah, he’s great and super nice, which is cool too.

Zach: First comedian I ever saw live. So you know, something to that.

John: Well, that’s a pretty good start. How about a suit and tie or jeans and a T-shirt?

Zach: Depends. Usually, the jeans and T-shirt. But you know, if you have to suit up sometimes, we all have to do what we all have to do.

John: Yeah, absolutely. No, suit and tie is great, especially now that they have like the made to measure type companies.

Zach: I just got one. And man, it was perfect.

John: Right?

Zach: They’re wizards out there.

John: No, it’s so good. And like it makes you wanna wear it more ’cause it’s like I picked the lining, I picked all this like, and it fits right. You know, it’s not off the rack where you gotta, yeah, feel like you’re in a box. So, good for you, man. Yeah, that’s awesome. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Zach: Star Wars by a long shot.

John: Okay. Yeah, mine too. Same. How about your computer? More of a PC or a Mac?

Zach: You know, I had the blessing to be on a Mac for a long time, and I had to relearn how to use a PC once I got back into public accounting. So, Mac by a mile.

John: Okay. Okay. That’s funny how you called it a blessing. That’s awesome.

Zach: Listen, I know accounting software and some of the stuff that we need isn’t quite the same on a Mac, but it’s just so much easier and more intuitive to use.

John: There you go. I’m not cool enough to even walk into a Mac store. I’m just gonna take your word for it and keep going on.

Zach: Come on. Come on.

John: Right? Oh, maybe I’ll get around it now. Yeah, there we go. How about more oceans or mountains?

Zach: You know, it’s really interesting given that was just up in Colorado. Got to experience the mountains a little bit, but usually the ocean to be honest.

John: Yeah, it’s usually warmer. I don’t know why when you think ocean, you think beach. You don’t think Maine in February, you know.

Zach: No. Nobody wants to. Good Lord.

John: Nor do you want to. Right. Some things you can’t unhear like that.

Now, ice cream. I’m a huge ice cream junkie. Do you get it in a cup or a cone?

Zach: Oh, cone.

John: Cone. There you go. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Zach: Ooh, man. Been a real bourbon kick lately. So there’s a couple of local distilleries up here that have just been knocking out of the ballpark.

John: Nice. There you go. We got six more or five more. How about balance sheet or income statement?

Zach: Balance sheet. It tells the whole story.

John: Oh, okay. All right. All right. There you go. Your first concert.

Zach: So this is a little embarrassing. It was actually Kiss. I went with my mom.
John: That’s awesome. That’s incredible.

Zach: I must have been one of the three youngest people in the crowd. But yeah, she went to the concert at whatever the arena was called back in the day in Albany, New York. And yeah, we ended up going together, you know, 7 or 8, whatever I was. Yeah. That was quite the experience.

John: That is quite the experience. That’s awesome, man. That’s pretty cool. How about a favorite number?

Zach: 22. That was my baseball number. Stocker football for a million years.

John: Okay. Yeah. Solid. How about books? Audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Zach: Oh, the real book. There’s nothing like having a tangible book in your hand as you try to— Well, given I have a little one here, finding that time to actually read is difficult. So you know, the answer usually ends up being audio ’cause there’s no other time. But yeah, if I have my choice, it’s a physical book.

John: Real book. Yeah, I’m the same. I’m the same. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Zach: Time.

John: Time. Nice. Good answer.

Zach: Try not the way you wrote the—

John: No, that works, man. I like it. Yeah. It’s wide open. So, time. Yeah. No, that’s good. And especially with a little one. So now, you’re just showing off. That’s good, man. Yeah. So let’s talk running and adventures, and how did you get into this? Is it something that you did since you were younger? I mean, it sounds like playing sports of course, but was that always a thing?

Zach: Yeah. So I actually started running track in high school. It was a way to keep in shape during the winter. I’m from upstate New York, so outdoor options are, let’s say, limited. So being able to run track indoors was a nice way to stay entertained, stay out of trouble. And funny enough, I actually started as a sprinter. For the life of me, I could not run more than 800 meters without pacing.

John: Right?

Zach: I had that wall. I don’t know why, but just I could not do it.

John: That’s amazing.

Zach: Yeah. So you know, played sports a long time where all you have to do is sprint, so never too big a concern of running any more than that. And after college, just sort of started expanding it out and then someone got the crazy idea in my head to run a marathon. And it took a long time to get up to that. So started doing some 5Ks and just expanding out from there. And I’ve done 7 marathons so far, doing another one this year.

John: Good for you, man. Congrats. That’s incredible. Yeah, I’ve done one half marathon, and it should not be called a half of anything. It is far.

Zach: 10.1 miles of fun. What are you talking about?

John: Yeah. And it’s the 0.1 that really gets you.

Zach: You’re joking about that, but that’s true though.

John: No, I’m not joking about that. I’m dead serious. Like I did it in under 2 hours, which I was pretty excited about.

Zach: Wow.

John: And so, my whole mantra during like training ’cause I ran in with a couple other people, and I was not as dedicated to the training as they were, and they were frustrated by that. And my whole mantra was just peak on race day. Like I don’t wanna peak too soon. Like I gotta just keep going, bring it on race day, like that’s it. And I did like luckily, but I was like “All right, I’m not doing this again. Like this is crazy.”

Zach: Let me ask. Was the runner’s high real for you?

John: No.

Zach: Oh, man, you missed the best part.

John: I did. There’s a lot of people that get it and that’s great. And it was in Indianapolis, so it was kind of cool. You ran around the race track at the Indy 500 and so that was fun. There’s a lot of people along the sides that kept it entertaining. It kept moving, I guess, for me ’cause that’s the problem is when I run, my brain starts going squirrely ’cause you don’t really have to focus a whole lot. And so, when there’s other distractions, it was helpful.

Zach: Well, if you wanna hear the most nerdy thing of all time, I’ll listen to CPE podcast sometimes when I’m running.

John: Oh, there you go.

Zach: So, multitasking. I’m getting CPE and I’m running.

John: Right?

Zach: And that’s probably one of the top 3 nerdiest statements I’ve ever made.

John: Right? It’s like what’s more painful? CPE or running? Then it balances each other out. It’s like two negatives make a positive. That’s awesome, man. But it’s efficient. That’s efficiency. But 7 marathons, do you have one that was your favorite?

Zach: The first one.

John: Which one was that one?

Zach: New York City. So being able to run through, just getting the excitement, the energy. I mean, there’s a million people all along if you count everybody up and just everyone’s super into it.

And the runner’s high was real. So you’re right, the 26.2, that 0.2 at the end right through Central Park was a nightmare. Oh, man.

John: Right?

Zach: But being able to actually cross the line finish, yeah, it was so much fun.

John: And in New York. I mean, that’s cool too, you know, being from upstate and all that. That’s exciting. Yeah. And you run through all the boroughs and yeah. I mean, it’s just cool.

Zach: Exactly. I got to run by my house, which is fun, you know.

John: Oh, even better. Yeah. That’s awesome, man. And it sounds like you’ve done running, I mean, outside of structured runs like a marathon or whatever, but all over the world really.

Zach: Yeah. So I have this interesting habit depending on what you think is interesting. But anywhere I go, I’ll get up super early in the morning and just go explore. So I’ll just go run through wherever I am. And so, a couple weeks ago, I was out in Denver and, yeah, got to explore pretty much every inch of the city, which was pretty cool. They like to broadcast they have one of the best downtowns of any city in the country. And it’s like “Oh, let me check this out.”

John: Yeah, I’ll be the judge of that.

Zach: Exactly.

John: Right?

Zach: What authority I have, but—

John: Right.

Zach: A few of them have gotten a little more crazy though. So, going into Safari and Africa, asking some very specific questions on where I can run. Little details like that, but it’s cool. There’s no better way to learn a place or find little fun spots than that. I mean, going back to my first marathon, you get to go through some really interesting areas of Brooklyn, of Queens, the Bronx. You know, that sort of got me thinking. And like you said, you have nothing but time. So the head starts going all over the place. I’m like “Wow, that looks like a cool bar. You know, that place looks like it has some pretty good food, so let me come back and check it out.” And then you start heading to enough spots and I wanna see what’s out there. And Yelp just isn’t the same.

John: Yeah. Oh, no, no, That’s awesome, man. And I mean, you’re staying fit, you’re exercising. When you fly somewhere, any jet lag or anything like that, you can work that out and it just gets your blood going. And that’s cool, man. That’s really neat. That’s really neat. And especially like in other continents, which is cool too type of thing.

Zach: Yeah. I mean, running an altitude in Peru was interesting.

John: Oh, wow.

Zach: Yes. I think we’re about 11,000 feet up, 12,000, somewhere in that ballpark. So yeah, being a little careful on that run too, but—

John: Right. Right.

Zach: Yeah. Being able to experience the different flavor so to speak has been a really interesting experience.

John: That’s fantastic, man. And do you feel like any of that translates to a skillset you use at work?

Zach: There’s certainly a discipline aspect to it as you said with jet lag or some of those late night meals, and adult beverages, and such. Yeah, sometimes you have to peel yourself out of the bed to get up and out there. So that’s certainly a big part of it. And yeah, I think that’s the biggest thing that I’ve learned from running, is just keeping that discipline and having a goal and moving towards it as corny as that sounds.

John: No, no, that’s incredible because, I mean, otherwise you’re just a ship without a rudder just aimlessly wandering around just doing whatever happens to be coming up next. And it’s like “No, no, like I have this goal and I’m gonna work towards it.” And then there’s a sense of accomplishment there. There’s so many great things that come from that. And I would imagine too when you’re in the middle of a busy project or an intense time, it’s that last point too of the marathon type of thing. You’re like “Hey, I did a marathon. We’re good.”

Zach: Of course. Then you start telling those stories and most people just roll their eyes. You know, the marathon, right. Yeah.

John: Oh, yeah. This guy again. Right. Well, you don’t have to tell the story. It’s more just to yourself maybe.

Zach: I should probably learn that lesson at some point.

John: Right. No. Or maybe people should just get out there and run one or a half or something.

Zach: No. Honestly, it really is a great experience. You don’t have to sprint it. You don’t have to go for the world record. But the best advice I ever got for running is just after the first step, it’s all momentum.

John: There you go.

Zach: Physical aspect to it doesn’t matter. I was taking the Staten Island ferry out to keep going back to my first one and next to me was a 74-year-old woman who had been running the marathon consecutively for two plus decades, whatever it was. And so, she was telling some stories ’cause you have an hour to kill basically. And at the end, if she can do this, I can do this. If she can set some pretty tough time milestones, what am I complaining about? What am I worried about? You know? It’s all momentum at a certain point, and there’s gotta be a lesson in there somewhere.

John: Oh, totally. I love that phrase. I mean, after the first step, it’s all momentum. That’s the first step’s the hardest kind of concept and whatever it is. Yeah. ‘Cause it really is and then you’re just one foot in front of the other. Just keep going type of thing.

Zach: Exactly. I mean, you might need a little water, maybe a power bar.

John: Right. Some electrolytes.

Zach: Yeah, maybe.

John: Right? Yeah. But you know, it is momentum and I mean that works figuratively for work in so many things and that’s great.

And so, has there ever been a part of you that’s like maybe I shouldn’t share an outside of work me ’cause clearly running marathons has nothing to do with any accounting job at all? Like has it ever crossed your mind that like “Oh, maybe I shouldn’t share”?

Zach: Yes. You know, there’s plenty of people out there who don’t necessarily value those type of extracurricular activities that sometimes in those work settings that really the focus is really on work. They don’t want to hear about some of those things. And yeah, it can come off a little braggadocia sometimes, which I can definitely understand. So, trying to posit in a careful way. And the same thing with traveling all over the place too. I mean, telling stories, going on safari, some people are either super interested or you get the eye roll and moving it on, that sort of thing.

John: But I mean, that’s on them, you know.

Zach: Of course. I’m definitely not the shy type, so I will definitely share without a doubt. But just being measured in how do you share those stories is something I try to be at least a little cognizant of.

John: Yeah, absolutely. No, for sure. Yeah. ‘Cause you definitely don’t wanna come across braggadocious like you said. It’s more of just “Hey, this lights me up. I wanna talk about it. You know, what lights you up? Sure. I’ll listen to you talk about volunteering at the dog shelter. Go nuts.” You know? Or whatever your thing is. Or you watched every House of Cards episode for the fifth time or whatever it is. But you can just tell the passion when people are talking about it. They’re excited. They’re animated. Their eyes get bigger. They’re alive sort of a thing.

Zach: Exactly.

John: That’s always good to ask others as well to work around that.

Zach: So I will say the Mile High City wasn’t that much of a challenge. I was expecting—

John: Well, have you done Peru? Peru is twice as much apparently.

Zach: Oh, that was years ago. I was a younger let’s say “athlete” at that point.

John: I was under 30.

Zach: Yes, I was.

John: Yeah. I mean, I don’t have a problem. I’ve never had a problem when I adjusted to Denver or when I leave and come back. Like I personally don’t, but I also don’t run. So now, we’re even.

Zach: Well-played.

John: Yeah, you’re right. Right? But yeah, I mean, I think if you go up in the mountains though, that’s when it starts to get a lot more on that. That’s for sure. And I guess at Propeller, I mean, a lot of you are remote. Is there anything that the firm does, the organization does to encourage people whether it’s share their hands or get to know each other on a human level?

Zach: I’ve gotta be honest. My first week in the firm, I was in a state of complete culture shock. You know, coming from public accounting, going through multiple firms, it was a completely different experience. So the way you posit What’s Your “And”? is exactly what that first week was like. And that was truly shocking.

John: That’s awesome.

Zach: There was a genuine sharing of not just the work side, but a personal type of aspect as well, which is something I think the greater accounting industry can and should begin to take in.

John: Yeah. Or the greater corporate world could take in.

Zach: Exactly. And that’s something that startup land has definitely gotten right for the most part, you know, big tech. Say what you will. But from a culture standpoint, it’s a very different presentation and that’s sort of the expectation of this new workforce out there and it really should be for all of us. And I’m getting off my soapbox, I swear.

John: No, no, no. I’ll encourage you on this one all day long because it was just people asking just pretty much like who is Zach and what do you like to do, what lights you up sort of thing.

Zach: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I’m also in a bit of a specialized situation working in crypto, which is always a good conversation starter. But beyond that, what makes you tick and vice versa? We’re sort of stuck working together for a while, so let’s see if there’s some sort of interpersonal connection we can make.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah, I love that so much. Yeah. Because, I mean, it matters. I mean, the technical skills, you either have them or we can teach you them or computers do them. But the human side of things and who are you, and the more that you can understand about someone’s story, the better everything’s going to be, you know. And so, it’s great to hear that they were doing it from the beginning, which is cool.

Zach: And it’s not always easy for accountants. I mean, so many introverts in the industry and just not necessarily the most outgoing of individuals. And that’s not good, bad, or otherwise. People are who they are, which is fine, but trying to find that middle ground is always a big deal. And especially in a client-facing, service-based industry, we should probably be doing that anyway. Shouldn’t all just be debits and credits.

John: Yeah. Because, I mean, that’s truly a differentiator especially with a client relationship side of things. ‘Cause, I mean, another accounting service can come in and do the accounting. It’s not like what I’m doing is I’m the only one and no one else can do this.

Zach: Right?

John: Right. You’re right. Exactly. Debits are still on the left. Okay, cool. They match. It’s like another organization can come in and do that.

Well, yeah, I mean, I guess that’s true. But you know, if you get to know the human side and bring some of that in, then that’s like when I speak a lot, it’s just bring the human from behind the job title. Like What’s Your “And”? is who else are you besides the job title?

Zach: It’s really funny. I think it was my second year out of college. I was working on some random real estate company, whatever it was. And I’m a bit of a sports fan if you can’t tell, but the CFO for the real estate company was a huge Knicks fan. So we were just talking basketball all the time and how terrible they were. You know, that type of stuff.

John: For sure. It’s Knicks. Right.

Zach: Exactly. That we have to go through. But because of that, we developed this awesome relationship, and he ended up calling me first before calling the partner, the manager on the job, or whatever the case. And people couldn’t figure out why. And it’s like “Listen, there’s nothing special about me. I’m, what, 22-23 years old, whatever I was. I don’t know anything about accounting, let’s be honest, but—”

John: But the human side of things, you know. Yeah. And it’s I trust you more because I know you more type of thing. And you know, the industry wants to call themselves trusted advisers and you’re an adviser adviser probably. What are you doing to develop trust? And being good at your job does not develop trust. Like everyone else is also good at their job.

Zach: It’s a baseline. It’s not a plus.

John: Exactly. And you gotta get to the pluses in order to develop trust. And I mean, there’s brain science behind it as well and all that. And so, that’s cool man. And you did it on accident kind of, but you learned and you observed it, you know. But you observed it and you’re like “Hey, there’s something here” and that’s cool that you’re carrying it forward. So that’s cool.

Zach: It’s been working so far anyway.

John: Right?

Zach: And to bring this full circle, it’s just that sort of interpersonal relationship building. And I told anyone who would listen, this is different than really anything else I’ve ever seen. And again, that’s not the disparage or say anything otherwise about any other experiences that I’ve personally had, but there’s just some really good lessons in there to learn and things that I took to heart for sure.

John: The more that organizations can bring the human to work and from the beginning, then the better it will be for everyone. And you’re a living example of this. The fact that it was a shock is sad, but you embraced it. I think more people are getting there, so it’s encouraging to hear. But you have any words for anyone listening that maybe has an “and” that they feel like has nothing to do with their job, but they still have a passion for something outside of work?

Zach: Yeah. Don’t ever give it up and find a way to communicate with your team, your friends in the office, wherever the case within the firm where you’re not necessarily alienating anyone, but just that it becomes a natural part of the day to day.

John: There you go. That’s the magic right there. It’s something that happens on the regular. So, cool, man. Well, this has been so much fun. And before I decide to lace up and go run with you sometime, I feel like it’s only fair that I turn the tables and allow you to ask me any sort of questions you would like. We’ll make this the first episode of The Zach Gordon Podcast. I don’t know what kind of music you like, but anyway.

Zach: For the show, but—

John: Right. Right. There you go. But yeah, but I’m all yours man. Whatever you got.

Zach: Perfect. So I know you’ve traveled around a little bit yourself. What’s your favorite city?

John: Yeah, that’s a good question. Probably Cape Town, South Africa is probably my favorite city.

Zach: Oh, man, that’s up there for me too.

John: It’s a unique mix. Due to the apartheid, there’s a lot of western influence, so there’s the infrastructure. And there’s a grid, but there’s still that raw African vibe and culture there. Plus, there’s nature, and wine country, and all that.

Zach: That’s only an hour away and—

John: Exactly. It’s a cool city for sure. You really gotta want to go there ’cause it’s far, but it’s a cool city.

Zach: Yeah. You have to make a trip out of it and then—

John: Yeah, exactly.

Zach: What’s your least favorite?

John: Least favorite city? Ooh, that’s a good question. Oh, man. Wow. That is a really good question. Shreveport, Louisiana is easily gonna be my least favorite city, easily for so many reasons. My senior year at Notre Dame, we played in the Independence Bowl and it’s in Shreveport, and it should not be a bowl. It was in their state fair rodeo stadium. So they didn’t have enough bathrooms or food vendors. So it’s like Porta Johns. And we played against LSU, so it’s like home state. And so, it was absolutely crazy. And then I went back probably 10 years later to the Funny Bone in Shreveport and that’s a long week ’cause that was like Wednesday night through Sunday night. So it was almost like 6 days you’re there.

It was a long week, and I’m not sure I’m gonna go back like ever. Like if there’s a company that wants to bring me into Shreveport, I’ll pay for everyone to come to another city and let’s just go to like somewhere else.

John: Right, exactly. That’s how much— Yeah, Shreveport, Louisiana. That’s definitely gonna be my least favorite. I could say that with conviction.

Zach: I can see that.

John: I’m sure the people are nice, but yeah. Yeah, it’s a whole another episode when I’m back on The Zach Gordon Podcast.

Zach: There, it’s perfect.

John: Yeah, exactly. You got one more?

Zach: What’s your favorite sandwich?

John: Ooh, favorite sandwich. That’s tough man ’cause like a Reuben’s good, like a Cubano’s good. Something with bacon always good.

Zach: I’m giving the hard hitting tough questions out here.

John: Yeah. But they’re hard, man. You make me think. Like my brain’s hurting. Preferably anything with bacon. There’s cheese on there. That’s always a plus. But yeah, probably one of those two would be good. Yeah. I wonder if there’s a Ruben with bacon on it.

Zach: I’m sure you can make that happen.

John: Yeah, that would be pretty magical. It’d probably be a restaurant in Shreveport and now I really got to decide like—

Zach: The only place in the world that serves that sandwich.

John: Right? It’s like “Well, John, which one’s the best here or the worst?”

Zach: And how far does Uber Eats go?

John: Right? There you go. That’s awesome. Well, thanks so much, Zach, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? It’s really, really cool to have you on the show.

Zach: No, I really appreciate you being here. Thank you so much for having me.

John: Yeah, absolutely. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Zach from his adventures running or connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. And while you’re on the page, please click the big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread. That who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 485 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. It goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and listening to it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the workplace cultures where they are because of it.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Fara Rosenweig. She’s the head of content marketing at WorkRamp in the San Francisco Bay Area. And now, she’s with me here today. Farah, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Fara: Thank you, John. I’m so excited to be here and chat with you on What’s Your “And”?

John: No. This is gonna be awesome. And you have an awesome “and.” But before we get into it, I have some rapid-fire questions here to get to know Fara right out of the gate. So, maybe an easy one. Favorite color.

Fara: Ooh, pink.

John: Pink? Okay. Okay. How about a least favorite color?

Fara: Maroon.

John: Maroon! Nice! Okay.

Fara: That was a tricky one.

John: That’s not a color you hear. Yeah. You don’t hear it super often. And I am with you on that. It’s a little too dark.

John: Yeah. It doesn’t lift my spirits.

Fara: Right. Right.

John: How about a TV show that you would binge watch?

Fara: Oh, Sex in the City.

John: Ah, yeah. And they’re back now. Right?

Fara: And just like that, yes, they’re back and I’ve binged watched all of those.

John: Right. Well, ‘cause wasn’t it something where like they were releasing on like normal shows back in the day where it was like one a week?

Fara: Yeah. And that’s what they did too and it was very frustrating. So, I had to wait a few weeks so I could binge a few shows.

John: How did we make it through the `90s? How did we do it?

Fara: Yeah.

John: That’s so funny. There you go. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzle?

Fara: Oh, crossword.

John: Crossword, okay. There you go. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Fara: Actor Paul Rudd.

John: Oh, yeah. He’s great.

Fara: Yeah. Actress Julia Roberts.

John: Oh, nice. Yeah.

Fara: Yeah.

John: Classics. There you go. And very funny both of them.

Fara: Yeah.

John: Very funny. Would you say more shower or bath?

Fara: Shower.

John: Shower, there you go. Just get in and out. Let’s do this. I’m similar. I’m like if I didn’t have to, I wouldn’t like why am I near. Like let’s just do this. That’s awesome. Ooh, here’s a fun one. Maybe a least favorite vegetable.

Fara: Oh, mushrooms.

John: Mushrooms, okay.

Fara: Uh-huh.

John: Yeah. They’re kinda weird. Right?

Fara: I think it’s the consistency. I don’t know. I’ll eat it if I have to. But if I have to choose, I’ll forego.

John: When I was on a recruiting visit with PricewaterhouseCoopers, I was in college, and I just wanted the job. And we went to dinner, and the guy that was recruiting me ordered like what’s the big one that’s like—

Fara: Oh, Portobello?

John: Yeah. And I was like “Oh, no.” ‘Cause those are meanie.

Fara: Yeah. And you got to eat it, right, because you’re like recruiting.

John: You couldn’t like with a drink pour it in a plant.

Fara: Yeah. No. You gotta eat it.

John: I was like “Oh, my gosh.” Like I’m still having repercussions from that, but here we go. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Fara: Oh, Star Wars.

John: There you go. On May 4th. Of course, it is Star Wars. There you go.

Fara: And your birthday week. Happy Birthday! I forgot to mention that at the top. That’s so awesome. So awesome. There you go. How about a favorite season? Summer, winter, spring, or fall? Oh, probably fall.

John: Fall? Yeah, me too.

Fara: Yeah. It’s boot season.

John: Yeah. Right. Right. How about your computer, more PC or Mac?

Fara: Mac. Apple products all the way.

John: Oh, there you go. There you go. Yeah. You are a marketer. That makes sense.

Fara: Yeah. I’m a walking advertisement for Apple stuff.

John: You’re all in.

Fara: Except the iWatch. I don’t have the iWatch. I’m Garmin all the way.

John: Oh, okay. Okay.

Fara: Yeah. That’s like the only switch right there.

John: Switch.

Fara: Yeah.

John: Yeah. Well, I’m sure it’s only a matter of time until they buy Garmin and then it’s mine. Make Fara’s dreams come true. How about a favorite Disney character?

Fara: Oh, my goodness. It’s gonna be one of the princesses. Let’s go with Belle from— Yeah, Belle. Beauty and the Beast Belle.

John: Okay. Beauty and the Beast. Okay. There you go. Yeah. Totally good one. How about are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Fara: Early bird.

John: Early bird. Okay. Yeah. Most runners I guess tend to be like that.

Fara: Yeah.

John: We got four more. Would you say more print or digital marketing?

Fara: I am digital marketing like I live and breathe digital marketing.

John: You prefer digital. Yeah. Yeah.

Fara: Yeah. But I prefer actually like reading print marketing. Like I like those postcards. I like everything paper, but I’m in the digital world. So, I have to go digital.

John: Okay. All right. Yeah. You don’t wanna get kicked out.

Fara: And I want a job.

John: There you go. There you go. There you go. How about a favorite number?

Fara: 7.

John: 7. Yeah. Is there a reason?

Fara: I have no. Ever since I was little, I just kept on saying 7 was my lucky number.

John: No. No. It’s a very popular one. I was just curious. Yeah. No. That’s just as good of a reason as any. And maybe I know the answer to this one based on your last answer, but books. Audio version, e-Book, or a real book?

Fara: Oh, real book all the way.

John: That’s what I was guessing.

Fara: I bought a Kindle in 2020.

John: Oh, wow.

Fara: I mean, it was great. I can’t believe I waited this long. Actually, no. It was 2019. Excuse me. Right before the pandemic, but I still prefer the real deal.

John: Yeah. Absolutely. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Fara: My dog.

John: Oh, yeah. What kind of dog?

Fara: I have a Golden Doodle.

John: Oh, nice!

Fara: He is a puppy.

John: Oh, there you go. There you go. What’s his name?

Fara: His name is Doug.

John: Doug, yes. I love that. I love that. That’s so good.

Fara: Yeah. I got him in the middle of the pandemic. I’m a dog person. I got him in the pandemic. And I am so grateful for his companionship. He is just a bundle of joy.

John: That’s so great. And his name is Doug. So, it’s even better.

Fara: Yeah. Exactly.

John: So, it’s like “Doug, don’t poop on that.” And it’s like “What? Who are you talking to?”

Fara: It’s great. At the dog park, people are like “Is his name Doug or Dog?” And I’m like “No. Doug like Douglas.”

John: Right? Like are you yelling at some random guy across the—

Fara: Exactly.

John: Nope. My dog. That’s so good. I love it. That’s so awesome. That’s so awesome. Well, let’s talk running and running Ragnars and marathons.

Fara: Let’s do it. All of that.

John: Like Forrest Gump running. How did you get started running? Were you always into this when you were a kid?

Fara: No. Believe it or not, I hated running. I hated it. I remember in middle I had a knee injury and I had my doctor write a note saying I can’t run the mile like I absolutely hated it and then I actually danced a lot. Like I did ballet and tap, jazz all my childhood, and in high school, and even in college. But in middle school, I think it was like 7th or 8th grade, because I was doing so much outside of school activity 3 to 4 hours after school, I was able to get out of gym completely.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Fara: So, in middle school, I didn’t have to run. I didn’t have to participate in PE. It was amazing. And then in high school, because I was part of the dance team and the cheer team, I didn’t have to do PE. Instead, I was practicing with my cheer team or dance team. So, I never had to run.

John: Oh, yeah. It makes sense. It wasn’t until college— I wanna say it was my junior year of college. I wasn’t 21 yet, so 19 or 20. My girlfriend, she was a runner. She was a soccer player, started running. And she was in great shape. And at that point, I had a couple injuries. So, I wasn’t dancing as much. I was really working out a lot. I loved the gym and that’s like my playground. And I was like “Well, she can do it. Like she’s in great shape. She can do it. Well, why not? I’ll do it.” And so, I ran a 5K. And I was like “Oh, that was easy.” And then I signed up for a marathon, but I was petrified everyone’s gonna laugh. I was petrified to run outside. I had no idea.

This was before Strava even came around. Like there were no apps. I was either using a Discman to listen to music or like the very first iPods. I can’t remember. It was very clunky. And I was petrified to run outside because I didn’t know how to navigate roads or anything like that. So, I literally trained on a treadmill at the gym. I plopped myself in front of the TV because the college I went to had these great TVs and you can plug your headphones into the treadmill and listen. So, I was either watching the news or whatever rom-com they had on. And I would just run aimlessly on the treadmill and that’s how I trained for my first race.

John: And that’s also how you came to love Paul Rudd and Julia Roberts because they’re in all the rom-coms.

Fara: Yeah. The best time if anyone’s like how could you do it, I tell you the best times to run on a treadmill was like during a sporting event if it was like football or basketball March madness because you get like that adrenaline and you’re like “Go!” Yeah. I trained on a treadmill for my very first—

John: That’s impressive.

Fara: …race.

John: Well, you probably would have run a marathon from getting lost. So, I mean, it’s good that you didn’t go outside because you would have been like I just did two marathons just trying to get home. Like I don’t even know. Yeah. That’s so awesome. And so, you just got started there. And then ever since, you’ve just been signing up and going?

Fara: Yeah. I think part of it is like I’m a very competitive person and a part of it is the only competition is myself. So, whatever I set mentally, I was like “okay, this is what I’m gonna do” and I’m gonna achieve it. I’m not competing with anyone else. So, I think that was part of it. And then also, at that time, running wasn’t very popular. Even fitness was not the industry than what it is now. And so, I was like “Look at what I’m doing and look at what all you are doing. I’m way better.” It sounds terrible, but so many of my friends were achieving all these other things in whatever career they were doing.

John: In life.

Fara: Yeah. They’re getting married or having kids and like look what I’m doing. I’m doing these things that a lot of people can’t set out to do. That was also my motivation.

John: We’re each in our own lanes, you know, and doing our own thing. That’s great, you know, ‘cause I mean so many people feel like “Well, I have to do this certain thing or I have to be this certain way at work or in life.” And you don’t. You don’t at all. Like none of those things.

Fara: Yeah.

John: I would even venture to say that a good percentage of those people aren’t doing it because that’s who they are. They’re doing it because of those reasons of they feel like they have to, or be this thing, or whatever. And it’s like be you. That’s so cool. So, do you have a favorite race or some fond memories that you have from some of those?

Fara: I do. I have a few favorites. I have to say they’re half marathons, but the Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, they’re both full marathons and halves. but the Tel Aviv and Jerusalem races are epic. I did them— Oh, what years were they? 2016 and 2018 or 2019. I can’t remember when the Tel Aviv was. I mean, you are running through history. How epic is that? And it’s just being international. You see just a complete different culture of people running, the types of attire. I was just fascinated by how people train in different climates and stuff. So, it was just amazing. And it’s honestly the best way to see a city, is by running. So, so I prefer the half marathon distance because it’s less training than a full marathon, but you still tackle such grounds to see epic scenery. It’s a toss-up between those two.

John: Those are both awesome though.

Fara: Yeah. They’re great.

John: Yeah. And you’re right. I mean, instead of doing a walking tour, well, why don’t we just run this and I get a T-shirt? And like everything’s good.

Fara: And a medal.

John: Right. And a medal.

Fara: And a banana at the end.

John: A banana. Right. I did one half marathon in my life. And yeah, it was like “Give me the banana. Let’s go. I’m out. I’m retiring. This is enough.” You find out the guy from Kenya did it in like 10 minutes and I’m like out there for 2 hours. I mean, I broke 2 hours, so I was pretty impressed with that.

Fara: That’s great.

John: But then I was like “You know what? That’s good and I’m done so like we’re out.”

Fara: Yeah.

John: And so, that’s awesome all over the world. And the pictures that you have at What’s Your “And”? on the show page are really cool too.

Fara: Oh, yeah. Every race has a great memory to it.

John: Right?

Fara: Yeah. I just love it. Yeah.

John: It’s so cool. And is this something that you talk about with coworkers or clients? Does it come up?

Fara: It does come up. When I find out someone’s a runner or some sort of a weekend warrior, we usually end up geeking out a little bit about “oh, what are you trading for” or “what gym do you go to….” So, it’s a great conversation starter. It’s a great way to meet people. Whenever I travel, especially if I’m in a new city or if I move anywhere, I go find a gym, or a running club, or something and that’s the best way for me to connect with people, and meet people, and just build those different types of relationships.

John: Yeah. Even at work, it’s connecting on a human level as opposed to what work do you do. It’s like “Well, we’ll get to that in a minute like who are you?” That’s awesome.

And so, do you feel like the relationships with the people that are weekend warriors are maybe just a little bit different than everyone else in the office?

Fara: Yeah. I think we just have a different bond I guess.

John: Totally. Of course.

Fara: (A) You build a different relationship. So, I find it’s easier to work with people when you build that relationship. And then also, they set a goal and they try to achieve it. I don’t care how long it’s gonna take them. I don’t care if it takes them 16 weeks versus 8 weeks to train for something. I don’t care if they’re in shape or overweight. They set a goal. They’re trying to do it. And so, in a work environment, when you connect with people like that, they have that same mentality. I would say 95% of this type of person, they have that mentality. I’m gonna have a goal. I’m gonna do it. There might be multiple ways to get there, but I’m gonna do whatever it takes to get to my goal. So, it’s a great environment to work in because everyone wants to perform well at work. I shouldn’t say everyone. Most people want to.

John: Right. I mean, I’m sure there’s one.

Fara: Yeah. There’s always that one, but yeah. It helps working with people with like mindsets because at the end of the day, we wanna help each other succeed and we’re each other’s biggest cheerleader. So, it’s like “Okay, this is what you wanna achieve. Let’s figure out how we’re gonna tackle it together. What’s gonna be our training plan?” And we all know it’s not a sprint. It’s a marathon. So, we have to just chisel away each step of the way to get to that overall goal.

John: Yeah. No, I love it. And you’re right. I mean, you can’t ask someone to not bring that mindset to work because what am I supposed to come to work with? Like one arm tied behind my back? Like why would I do that? Like I have these other skills that are above and beyond my college degree, and my certifications, and my trainings that there’s a skillset that’s from your “and” and that mentality and that mindset certainly plays out at work. And you can’t turn it off.

Fara: No.

John: And it’s cool that you are proactive in wanting to find out about people. And even if they’re not weekend warriors, there’s something else, but it’s like, well, you have a different mindset, a different skillset than I do. So, when we need that, I’m definitely coming to you.

Fara: Oh, totally. Yeah. And you know, it’s kind of my philosophy— Some people agree with it. Some people don’t. But there’s more than one way to get somewhere. The same thing in a work environment. There’s more than one way and I bring a lot of strength to the table. I also don’t have a lot of strength, but that person might bring those other strengths. And then together, we can just create world domination.

John: There it is. There it is. That’s it. World domination, I love it. And the people think that there’s only one way or definitely not doing the best way. They’re just doing a way and they think it’s good enough and then they’re like okay, but then we’re just gonna do this. And it’s like not really.

Fara: Yeah.

John: You know, there’s other ways, but I love that so much. And I guess how much is it on an organization to be able to create that space to allow people to share or encourage people sharing their “ands” versus how much is it on the individual? Like in your case, it sounds like just finding out like just ask.

Fara: I think it’s a combination of both. It depends on the person. Some people might be very shy and closed, so they don’t want to share. And then that’s where I come in. I can kind of read people and, weird, I like to talk. I like to connect with people. So, I’m gonna be that person that’s gonna ask those questions anyway. But on the flipside, it’s great if people can come out and say “Oh, this weekend, I did X, Y, Z.” And so, that’s kind of the icebreaker and then you can start domino effect. “What’s your weekend hobby?” “Oh, running.” “Oh, what trail did you do?” Or this, that, and you kind of go down that rabbit hole and then it’s a great way to connect with people.

John: Yeah. I wonder how many rabbit holes you go down that are work related versus running related. I’m guessing not very many.

Fara: Yeah.

John: I mean, human nature, it’s just— You know, we think that the work-related conversation is what we have to do. Work gets done and you have to be good at your job. And you certainly have to get that done. It’s just it’s very rare that you’re running down these rabbit holes that are work related where you’re like “What? No way. What?” but when it’s something “and” related, then, man, we’re gone. I don’t even know what we did this afternoon. I just ordered a new pair of shoes. You got a new running watch. Like we’re all good. You know, we signed up for races in Jerusalem and what’s up? But that’s so cool to hear that that happens and that you’ve experienced that for sure. And I guess what would be some barriers to people not wanting to share? Maybe, like you said, they’re maybe a little shy.

Fara: I guess the barriers are they might not feel safe in that environment yet and it might take them some time to break it down, which is completely okay.

No one’s forcing you to talk about your personal life. So, I suggest waiting until you feel comfortable. Or if you overhear someone talking about it in a meeting, that’s when you can kinda chime in. Slack these days, they have different channels for different sports, different hobbies, or your different “ands.” So, that’s when you can join in those slack channels and kind of oversee and then slowly start that conversation. So, I used to be like that like not really wanting to talk about some of my personal stuff. I felt judged. I wasn’t sure. Now, over the years, I’m like whatever. If you don’t want to share, you don’t have to share, but then you’re also missing out on some sort of personable relationship that can help you in some way, shape, or form in the work environment. That’s kind of how I look at it.

One of my CMOs told me get to know a CFO quickly because they’re the ones that’s gonna give you the budget. A CFO that I used to work with, I think I saw a photo of him hiking or something. So, I just immediately like went there. I was like “Oh, I notice you hike.” Ask him the 20 questions and that was an icebreaker. We probably for like a month or two did not talk about work. I didn’t talk to him about teach me your CFO ways, like I wanna understand your lingo or anything. I just built that relationship first and asked him questions and then I was able to build a solid relationship. And you know what? I got almost every budget I wanted approved after that.

John: What do you know, right? I mean, it’s amazing how connecting as humans even though it’s in business, it’s still human to human transactions.

Fara: Right. Exactly.

John: And I love too how you were like I was afraid of being judged. I think most of that judgment is happening in our own minds.

Fara: Oh, totally.

John: Because once you started to share that you’re running, it’s like no one’s judging that. They were like “This is awesome. Like what? Like when’s your next one?”

Fara: Yeah. In 2 weeks actually.

John: Right. There you go. There you go. Yeah. And so, it’s just cool to hear how much of it is just in our own heads. And when you do share, and when you do get out, and when you do try to connect especially cross department like that, oh man, it’s magic and just what lights you up. Here’s what lights me up. And we’re humans and like let’s talk about it because it brings some emotion to work sort of a thing. To wrap this up, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone that maybe they like to run or they have another “and” that they feel like no one cares about or has nothing to do with their job?

Fara: If you feel like you’re the only one doing that, you’re not alone. There’s everyone out there doing some sort of “and” and maybe you’re not a runner, maybe you enjoy hiking, maybe you enjoy rollerblading, maybe it’s book club. I have a lot of friends who are faster runners than me or they’re more regimen about their eating habits. They have like a very strict diet especially race weekend, all this stuff. But at the foundation, we all have this thing like we enjoy doing something. We set this goal and we’re gonna achieve it. And I think that’s the thing that brings us together. So, don’t think you’re alone. There’s someone out there. I love actually connecting with newbies because I remember what it’s like as a newbie. It’s intimidating. I get so excited when people are like I’m doing my first 5K, 10K, whatever distance it is. I’m like I’m gonna be your biggest cheerleader. I text them in the morning, like race morning, good luck.

John: That’s awesome.

Fara: Because I remember what it was like. Almost every race I’ve gone myself, I’ve ran— it’s probably like 2 or 3 races I ran with people. So, I remember what that’s like and I didn’t have the support. And so, I just wanna provide that to people who might have those race day jitters and it builds a sense of community. And then also, I think another thing that I just love is that how people feel after. I just did that. I can’t believe I did that. And so, what an accomplishment to celebrate, so yeah.

John: Right. That’s super cool. Yeah. It’s just being alive and just sharing it. Like you said, slack channels are an easy way for you to just kind of creep around and you don’t even have to contribute. You just gotta look and you’re like “Oh, other people are doing this too.” And then eventually, you just share a little bit at a time and then what do you know. Before you know it, cool things and the CFO’s approving all your budget and like all that sort of goodness. That’s so awesome, Fara. Well, I feel like before we wrap this up, it’s only fair that I turn the tables because I so rudely asked you so many questions. We turn this into the Fara Rosenweig podcast and I’m your guest.

So, I’m all yours, whatever you wanna ask. Fire away.

Fara: First and foremost, I need to know what’s your “and.”

John: Okay. “And’s” college football, ice cream, concerts, play the piano a little bit, so yeah. I think those are good starts. So, definitely not running. Yeah. I retired after that half marathon.

Fara: But you know what? There’s a conversation there like “Oh, what half marathon did you do? You see what just happened?”

John: Yeah. Right.

Fara: Now, we’re connected.

John: In Indianapolis.

Fara: Okay.

John: And part of it was around the Indianapolis race track like the speedway.

Fara: So, that’s so cool.

John: Yeah.

]Fara: That’s so cool.

John: It was wild. 1And you don’t realize how banked that track is until you’re like running on it and you’re like “Woah, this is pretty slick. This is deep.”

Fara: So, you would never have even been able to experience that if you didn’t say “Hey, I wanna try running.” Now, you know you don’t wanna run, but you have this epic story when you ran on this track that no one’s ever been on.

John: Exactly right. Exactly right.

Fara: It’s so cool.

John: And my mantra the whole time was I didn’t wanna train as much as I guess you’re supposed to.

Fara: Yeah. That’s okay.

John: But my mantra was peak on race day. I was like I don’t wanna use up all my good stuff on training. I wanna use it all on race day. And luckily, I did all right.

Fara: Yeah.

John: Yeah. It’s all good. It’s all good.

Fara: You did it. That’s all that matters. You got to the finish line. You accomplished something. That’s epic.

John: Exactly. Exactly. There you go. Awesome. So, no, thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? And yeah, it’s just so great to have you be a part of this. So, thanks, Fara.

Fara: Oh, thank you. This was a pleasure John. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

John: So fun. And everyone, if you wanna see some pictures of Fara from some of her races or connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All that stuff is there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 253 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. Each Wednesday, I’m interviewing a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and,” those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiates you at work.

I’m so excited to let everyone know that my book’s being published in just a few months. It’ll be available on Amazon and a few other websites. So check out whatsyourand.com for all the details. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s listening to the show and changing the cultures where they work because of it. Please don’t forget to hit subscribe so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Ali Metzl. She’s a shareholder with Brownstein Hyatt Farber Schreck in Denver. Now, she’s with me here today. Ali, thank you so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Ali: My pleasure. I’m happy to be here.

John: Yeah. This is going to be so fun, so much fun. But right out of the gate, you know how the drill, 17 rapid-fire questions. Yeah. Exactly. This is fun having an attorney on the other side of this. Normally, I’m the one getting drilled. But no, no. It’s all good.

Ali: Probably cost less that way.

John: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So here we go. This is actually a pretty good one. Suits or law and order?

Ali: Definitely law and order.

John: All right. How about with your computer? More of a PC or a Mac?

Ali: PC. I don’t own a Mac. And I’m not technically savvy.

John: No, no. I’m not even cool enough to go into a Mac store. I don’t even know. I don’t own enough white clothing to fit in with it.

Ali: Or enough vests.

John: Yeah. Or enough vests. Exactly. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Ali: It’s a tie between cookies and cream and mint chocolate chips.

John: Solid answer. More heels or flats?

Ali: As the time goes by, living in Colorado, more flats.

John: More flats?

Ali: My New York City days, more heels.

John: Right. How about favorite toppings on a pizza? You can load it up.

Ali: I’m a plain, classic girl. Just a slice, a good slice. Having lived in New York City for so many years, the classic is where it’s at.

John: Absolutely. Exactly. No, for sure. How about when it comes to law, more criminal or civil?

Ali: I don’t ever want to be in a courtroom. The only time I’ve been in a courtroom was when I was sworn in.

John: Oh, wow.

Ali: And I want to keep it that way.

John: Right. Exactly. All right. How about do you prefer more hot or cold?

Ali: I’m a cold weather girl. I like winter.

John: How about a favorite number?

Ali: My favorite number is four.

John: Is there a reason?

Ali: I like even numbers. And I think at some point when I was young, my mom also has a favorite number. It’s four. And I think I picked that up from her.

John: That’s a good number.

Ali: So I always had it as my jersey number. And that was always the number I gravitated towards.

John: That’s awesome. No, that totally works. It totally works. More chocolate or vanilla?

Ali: Definitely chocolate, dark chocolate.

John: You didn’t even think about that one for a second. That was awesome. How about pens or pencils?

Ali: Definitely pens and very specific fine point pens. I’m very particular about my pens. The extra fine point.

John: Extra fine point?

Ali: Yes. Rolling ball pen that I need to have special ordered.

John: That’s fantastic. That’s awesome How about puzzles? Sudoku or crossword?

Ali: Great question. Definitely not Sudoku. I’ve recently started doing those short crossword puzzles from the New York Times, the ones that have the letter in the middle and all the letters are on the outside. Then you can shuffle them and you have to get a certain number to be considered a genius. I like those a lot.

John: That’s a good one. How about a favorite color?

Ali: Blue.

John: Blue? Okay. How about a least favorite color?

Ali: Red.

John: Red? Interesting. Okay. Yeah. It’s the opposite. That works. We got four more. How about a TV show that you would binge watch?

Ali: I have to say we’re not huge TV watchers. I watch a lot of political TV and sports.

John: That works for binge watching both of those things because they’re on all the time.

Ali: Yes. I definitely binge watch MSNBC and Broncos.

John: Right. There you go. Okay. Do you have a favorite actor or actress?

Ali: My favorite actor would probably be Pierce Brosnan. I don’t know that I have a favorite actress.

John: That works. How about more early bird or night owl?

Ali: I get up early to exercise, which I’m sure we’ll talk about later in this.

John: Absolutely. Yeah.

Ali: Although I mean in my earlier lawyer days, I was up much later than I am now. But I think now that I’m getting older and with the kiddos, I’ve got to get up early to get my time.

John: Exactly. The last one, the favorite thing you own or the favorite thing you have?

Ali: I mean my family would be number one.

John: That’s an excellent answer especially if they listen.

Ali: Yeah. Well, they’re going to listen to this.

John: Right. Exactly.

Ali: So my family. And I think I would just say probably the time we have on the mountains because now, my kids are old enough where we can all ski together.

John: Oh, that’s cool.

Ali: That’s just really special time.

John: Yeah. That’s super fun, super fun. Awesome. Yeah. So talking about running and exercising in general, but the running, is that something that you did since you were younger or did you get into it later?

Ali: As a kid, I was a very serious ballerina. I also played soccer from the time I was really little. So for me, exercise was always a part of my life. And growing up, both of those things are regimented. I didn’t start distance running for fun until I met my husband when I was in college. He has several older brothers who got him into the habit of marathon running. When I saw what he was doing and it was a great way as I was finishing college to translate — ballet ends at a certain point in time unless you go become a professional. So I was looking for the natural transition to continue what I was doing. So I got into distance running from watching him and sharing that. I mean it’s something that we’ve shared for a long, long time since, but it’s become a real critical part of my sanity.

John: A critical part of your sanity?

Ali: Yes. And my family’s sanity.

John: Right. That’s hilarious. Yeah. I think that’s really cool. So it’s something that you guys do together?

Ali: Yes. And I will say my husband is a fantastic runner. He has evolved past running and is much more focused on long distance biking at this point. I’ve stayed committed to my running. But it was something that we for sure shared. And the focus on having races and having goals, that piece, we still share.

John: That’s awesome. So do you have any favorite races or runs that you’ve done?

Ali: My favorite race is the New York City Marathon. I moved to Colorado, seven, almost eight years ago from New York City. I was born in New York City. We used to live basically at the finish line of that race. So for me, it’s this tour of my city, a city that means a lot to me. When we run that race, we don’t run actually together. But it’s a race that my husband and I do together with a few of his brothers. So there’s always this really special family component to it. And just the scope of it, it’s iconic.

John: Oh, it’s huge. When I lived in New York City too, I mean you go through all the boroughs and just end up in Central Park there. Yeah. It’s a lot. I mean I never ran it. But gosh, it’s shut down the city. That’s for sure. You would see people everywhere.

Ali: It’s a special day for the city. And it’s one of those that gives you perspective on so many things. But I would say that is my special race.

John: Really cool. Would you say that running at all gives you a skill that you bring to work?

Ali: It has been essential to my focus. I think having an escape or a place to release has been critical to me. I mean because I started doing this kind of distance running when I was in law school and have been doing it all through training and my career. And not only does it give you a release and an out, but it gives me the ability to retain a human piece of myself. So no matter how hard law school was or those early years of being an associate or a really contentious, complicated issue that I’m dealing with, having that part of myself and part of my life that’s untouchable with its own set of goals and I’m working towards something that is outside of how hard my life will be, retaining that human element has always been so essential for me.

John: That’s so powerful and the way that you put it. I mean because it’s something that you can control and it’s something that is independent of the work. So even if you have a bad day at work or a long day at work, you still have this to look forward to or this to work on.

Ali: Exactly. And you’re still moving forward with progress towards an independent goal that exists. So it’s a real check to retain your humanity when work is hard and feels all-consuming and stressful. To continue that piece of yourself outside of that is really important.

John: That’s awesome. Is that something that you learn from somewhere else or you just did it on your own in happy accident sort of a thing?

Ali: I felt that. And it’s something that I think my husband I probably spoke about early on. He’s an orthopedic surgeon. So he, during his training, did five Iron Men when he was in medical school and residency. That was always something that we talked about. It was people who don’t come to these challenging parts of their professional life with something that is outside of that. It’s really hard to develop that later on. Or it’s easy to give that up when things get really, really hard, right? You’re just like, “Oh, I have to wait until I’m past this part of my career to get back to that thing I care a lot about.” And we always prioritize that because we felt that that made us better professionals and made us more efficient in our job, more focused in our job. That’s something that we’ve talked about and been aware of for a long time.

John: Oh, that’s awesome. Yeah. Because I mean it’s so true. I mean there’s so many people that I’ve met in the consulting work that I do and speaking at conferences and stuff. It goes dormant. Then if you let it dormant long enough, it’s extinct.

Ali: That’s right.

John: Then you’re getting ready to retire and you don’t know what you’re going to go do. And that’s really scary to me.

Ali: It is.

John: When I hear people tell me these stories, I’m like, “Oh my goodness.” So kudos to you and your husband for keeping that there and seeing how important that was to you and then holding onto it, which isn’t easy.

Ali: It gets easier to prioritize it if — maybe just like exercising, right? — if you practice that. If you practice it from the beginning and you stay committed to it, then it’s not as hard to build that into your life.

John: That’s true. Yeah, because it’s always been there and you just never let it go. That’s awesome, really cool. Is running something you talk about at work? Do people know how into it you are?

Ali: Oh, yeah. In my office, I’ve got my marathon medals.

John: Oh, nice.

Ali: I’ve got a plaque from the New York Marathon. I will say also, we have started at work, at some of our retreats, to have 5Ks. And people know that I and one of my running colleagues, we take it pretty seriously. There’s bragging rights. And I will say also, one of the other things that’s been really fun for me is doing business development, client development bonding over this running, my marathon time.

And I just had — actually this happened last week. A client of ours, who we do some races together, he lives in California. He’s been really focused on qualifying for Boston and has been at it for years and years and has worked through injuries. He sent us an email. He finally qualified for Boston. He sent an email to me and one of my colleagues here because he knew that we would be thrilled for him. There is that piece that you’re able to share with people and it builds real camaraderie both inside of your workspace and with your clients.

John: Yeah. Because he’s not sending you an email about some cool law thing that he just read. That’s like no-no.

Ali: Right. We talk about that stuff all the time.

John: Right. Exactly. But that genuine interest that you each have in each other really takes that relationship to another level.

Ali: You bet. And another — one of our colleagues, she just competed in the national championships for Aquathlon. So there is this group of sharing these personal achievements, athletic achievements that really builds honest, true relationships. Those are the kinds of people you want to work with and for.

John: Yeah, for sure. No, that is really awesome. Is it something that the firm does intentionally or is it just the way you are or you just gravitate towards the people that are like that?

Ali: There’s probably an element to both in that. But I would say the culture of this place and the set of core values that we have foster folks who have these interesting passions and experiences outside of work. And we want you to talk about them, right? We want you to share with them, right? We ski together. We bike together. People do ultramarathons and distance spiking. And that’s perfectly acceptable. It’s not a taboo topic to talk about your hobbies. And that is huge for me, right?

John: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean that’s huge really for everyone. Has it always been that way or is it more of a newer thing?

Ali: I think it’s perhaps become more intentional. I think we are trying very hard. And a lot of the things that I spend my time working on, I run our women’s initiative and I run all of our diversity initiatives for the firm. I’ve led our Summer Associate Program for the past several years. So there has been a real focus on identifying talent and folks who have these outside interests and fostering the kind of environment that recognizes that that is additive to our work environment.

John: Awesome.

Ali: And that folks who do have those outside commitments that they pursue year over year with seriousness is a marker of someone who is a committed professional. It’s a marker of somebody who’s going to be successful and engaged.

John: Yeah. No. So it’s not, “You have the best GPA or you’ve memorized all the law or whatever.” It’s, “Do you have other dimensions to you that you’re also pursuing that you’re passionate about?” Because you found that that actually in turn makes you a better professional when you’re in the office.

Ali: Yes. And you’re more balanced. You’re more present in your mental space, which allows you to deal with the pressures of this job in a different way over the long term. We do see that. We want to talk about that through our interviewing process. Then we want to be mindful of all of that when we craft policies and benefits to ensure the folks stay.

John: Right. Yeah. Because I mean in so many places, they say that they hire people because of their extracurricular activities and then never give them time to go do those extracurricular activities. It’s like, “Well, what the heck? What’d you expect?”

Ali: Why do you put that on your resume if you don’t want to talk about it or think that there’s value to that?

John: Yeah. Or if you’re interviewing people, why ask them about it if you’re not going to care once they start?

Ali: Absolutely.

John: So it’s so encouraging to hear that you guys are doing that. That’s really cool.

Ali: It’s a focus of ours to recognize that people are whole people. And you spend so much of your waking time at work. It would be an awful thing to have to sever something that’s so critical to you and to your identity from yourself in order to be present here.

John: Exactly.

Ali: And to think that you have to do that, it’s unfair and unrealistic.

John: No, that’s awesome. That’s so cool. You should be running this podcast. What am I doing? This is crazy. That’s so awesome, so awesome. I feel like the firm here is doing a lot of really great things. How much do you feel like it’s on the organization to create that culture? Or how much is it on the individual to either, one, jump in or, two, create the little small circle if it’s not already there?

Ali: The firm in and of itself is entrepreneurial, right? It is something that you see the founder’s pictures on the walls, right? That drive, that desire, that hunger to lean forward and figure out what’s next and what’s coming, that sense of entrepreneurialism and engagement that breeds this recognition of the fact that people are people with passions and interests. So I think that is in the water, so to speak. But this is also the kind of place where if you have an idea about how to better this place, right, and how to allow people to be their full selves and their most engaged selves and so that we get the best they have to offer, then you should raise your hand and offer your idea. I think it’s both. We expect people to be thoughtful and be creative about how we can do this better always. But there is something inherent in the philosophy of the founders that permeates what we do and how we do it.

John: Yeah. I mean from the top down, it certainly helps. And I think that — it sounds like because you share your hobbies and passions so frequently and so open about it that it humanizes people that are at the top. So if somebody has an idea, they can come to you as a shareholder and not be intimidated because you’re not the shareholder in the corner. It’s Ali.

Ali: That’s right.

John: “Let’s go talk to her.”

Ali: I think that’s exactly right. Our founders are still here for the most part. The firm is 52 years old, which means that the folks who are running the firm are not so much older than me. And I think that means we share a lot, right? You share what interests you. We spend time together. They know what’s going on in my life, what race I’m training for, what race my husband’s training for, what races my kids are training for.

John: Right. Nice.

Ali: They know all that stuff. And the same thing with the folks that I work with. I want to know what’s going on in their lives because that’s going to make me a better leader. It’s going to make me a better team member. And it’s going to make the folks we work with more invested in what we’re all driving towards.

John: No, that’s so fantastic to hear. Because I mean a lot of times, especially in places that have charge codes and billable hours and things along that nature, if you have something outside of that, sometimes it’s frowned upon or it’s distraction or in our own heads, we think, “Somebody’s going to think I’m not very dedicated to my job.” What do you have to say to someone that thinks that way?

Ali: It’s all about how you organize it. For me, I organize my day so that I know that I check that box from my time. I get up early. I know that, yes, I probably respond to some work emails when I get up at 5:15. But that’s my time. My kids are asleep. Work hasn’t gone completely haywire yet. And I have that time in the morning where I do what I need to do to make myself feel mentally fit and physically fit. It’s more about fitting it in and taking ownership and saying, “These are all my obligations to myself and to my clients, to my family.” How do you make it work, right? Like an adult, we recognize that we all have a thousand demands on our time. And it’s really just about how you organize your life, right? You respect that people have stuff they’ve got to organize and let them be the judge of how they do that.

John: Right. Yeah. Because it’s so easy to let work just become all consuming.

Ali: That’s right.

John: Like you said, you wake up at 5:15. There’s an email. Then before you know it, it’s 8:00 p.m. and you haven’t done any running. You haven’t exercised. you haven’t had any me time. Then you do that one day. Then you do it two days. Then before you know it, you’re 20 years later. You’re like, “I don’t even remember the last time I ran.” And it’s because you don’t prioritize it or be intentional about making time for that. It doesn’t have to be every day for everyone. It could be once a quarter. Whatever your thing is —

Ali: Whatever it is.

John: — just do it.

Ali: Right. And do it habitually because otherwise, it’s not inherent to you. It doesn’t animate you.

John: That’s a great word right there, animate, because it lights you up. I mean you’re a completely different person when you’re talking about running than when you’re talking about work.

Ali: Yes. That time crystallizes what I have to do that day, how I’m going to approach an argument. It allows me time to test out my strategies of how I’m going to negotiate something. Or if something really, really angered me and I had an emotional response to something that’s going on at work, it allows me to push that piece out and get clarity around how I’m going to attack a big problem or a stumbling block on a transaction or how are we going to bring all these people together, right? I can get my head focused in that time. So my energy when I show up to work is much different. It’s much more focused. I’m much calmer in my chair when I sit down for work.

John: Well, like you said in the beginning, it’s for the sanity of your family and everyone else. That’s hilarious.

Ali: That is true. I will say last year, when I was training for the New York Marathon, my treadmill broke mid-training. My treadmill and I have this really special symbiotic relationship. My husband says it’s two or three days, there’s no treadmill. We do have a gym in the office. There was obviously an outlet, but it wasn’t the same mine that I adore. He just said, “Fix this. This has to be fixed for everyone’s —

John: Just do a kickstarter for everyone that was impacted, pitch in and —

Ali: Just everyone. That’s right.

John: That’s hilarious.

Ali: Yes. “Solve this.”

John: That’s super funny. Yeah. This has been really awesome. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that thinks that they have a passion that no one cares about or it has nothing to do with their job?

Ali: I think my words of advice would be everyone has a passion. Everyone that you run into cares about something deeply. And it is so rewarding to ask them about it and take the time to talk to them about it because you are going to be refreshed. You’re going to be encouraged to engage in your own. There’s time in the day for it. There’s time in the day. And it’ll make your day better to know something about somebody else. And it’ll push yourself a little bit.

John: Yeah. I mean it’s rewarding. It’s rewarding for you. It’s rewarding for the other person. It’s rewarding for the firm. I mean everybody wins.

Ali: Yes. Everyone wins.

John: And it’s so simple.

Ali: It’s really okay to spend that time and talk to people and ask them what it is that they do outside of the office and not in a lip service way because that’s the only way that we’re going to connect with other people.

John: Yeah. No, that’s exactly it. And it’s okay if work isn’t your passion. You’re really good at it and you do it well. But if you have something else that you’re also passionate about, it shouldn’t be frowned upon. Like you said, it makes you a better professional when you guys are interviewing and when you’re looking for people. I mean you found that that actually elevates people. It makes them more productive and better at what they’re doing in the office.

Ali: Absolutely. When you remove those barriers that are keeping people from being their full selves, that’s when you see people really shine.

John: Yeah, in all facets of their life.

Ali: That’s right.

John: That’s awesome, so awesome. So it’s only fair that I offer you the opportunity to rapid-fire question me since I so rudely out of the gate fired away at you.

Ali: How about a favorite sports team?

John: A favorite sports team? That’s an easy one, Notre Dame Football. Yeah, Notre Dame Football. Yeah. I’m a big college football guy.

Ali: Okay. Ski or snowboard?

John: Snowboard only because I hadn’t done any mountain sports since I was in third grade until about two years ago. I had skateboarded in the middle there. Also, when I was much younger but I figured there are more variables on skiing, like the ankles and knees. Where snowboarding, it’s mostly just wrists, I guess. So I just, yeah, snowboard.

Ali: Last one, Kindle or hard copy?

John: I love the real book. I mean that being said, when I travel, I just definitely have it on my phone so I can read the Kindle. But yeah, real books are really fantastic.

Ali: It’s fun to be on this side of the rapid-fire.

John: Right? Isn’t it? Isn’t it? That’s why I only give you two or three because that’s enough. I don’t want to get carried away. No, but thanks so much, Ali, for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”? This is really fun.

Ali: Thank you for having me.

John: Yeah. Absolutely. Everyone listening, if you want to see some pictures of Ali running or connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 223 of What’s Your “And”? This is john Garrett, and each Wednesday I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their and, like you’re an accountant and a painter or a lawyer and play the piano or an engineer and climb mountains. I mean, it’s the things that are above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiates you when you’re at work.

I’m so excited to let everyone know that my book has been published in just a few weeks and will be available on Amazon and a few other websites. So check out whatsyourand.com. All the details are there. I can’t say how much it means that everyone is listening and changing the cultures where they work because of this message and sharing it with everyone. It’s really, really cool to see how it’s manifested all over the world really.

Please don’t forget to hit Subscribe so you don’t miss any of the future episodes because I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. This week is no different with my guest, Dan Herron. He’s a partner at Better Business Financial Services in San Luis Obispo, California. Now he’s with me here today.

Dan, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Dan: Thanks, John. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

John: I’m super excited to have you on, but you know the drill is we always start out get to know Dan on another level with my 17 rapid-fire questions. So I hope you brought a seat belt and you buckled up, buddy, because this is going to be tricky. So I’ll start you out with a pretty easy one, favorite color?

Dan: Blue.

John: Blue. Nice. How about a least favorite color?

Dan: Black?

John: Black, okay. Cats or dogs?

Dan: Dogs for sure.

John: Dogs for sure. All right, how about pens or pencils?

Dan: Pens, even though my handwriting is terrible. It doesn’t even matter. So I’m giving either or.

John: Either or, right. How about when it comes to puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

Dan: Crossword I want to say, just because I think that the questions and the actual figuring it out is a little bit more interesting.

John: That’s true. There’s a whole other level there. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Dan: Keanu Reeves.

John: Nice. Okay. All right. He’s actually a really, really amazingly great guy like in real life. Now how about more suit and tie or jeans and a t-shirt.

Dan: Jeans and a t-shirt. Does it even have to be jeans? Can it just be like shorts?

John: You can go shorts. You’re all California. You do that, man. Here’s a twist, Harry Potter or Game of Thrones?

Dan: Oh, God. Okay, so everyone is going to kill me on this one. Game of Thrones. I’m probably the only person in the world that finds Harry Potter kind of boring.

John: Okay. At least you’re honest. Everyone, tweet at — no, I’m just kidding. I’m just joking.

John: No, no, absolutely. How about when it comes to your computer, more PC or Mac?

Dan: Mac because for me, since I’m not tech savvy, I like to be able to point and go. I feel like PC just every day has some sort of update that I don’t even get.

John: How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Dan: Oh, man, so this is a tough one. Okay, it’s not technically ice cream. It’s Talenti gelato.

John: Oh, yeah. Okay.

Dan: Blueberry pie because not only does it have blueberry, but it also has the pie crust in it.

John: Oh, wow. And it’s healthy because it’s fruit.

Dan: Exactly. Yeah, something like that.

John: Good answer, man. Good answer. How about a favorite Disney character?

Dan: I don’t even know if I have one. Let’s see. Okay, how about this? I’ll go the opposite direction. I will go villain. The villain in Aladdin.

John: Ah, okay. That counts. That’s a Disney character.

Dan: Wait, I’ll take that back. I will go with Darth Vader.

John: Okay, I see how you’re leaning. I see how this is. All right. All right. How about a favorite band or musician?

Dan: Okay, ’80s, Phil Collins. I’ll even go a step further. “In the Air Tonight” is probably my favorite jam.

John: There you go. There you go. That builds and it just — I mean, it’s just like ah at the end.

Dan: Really, it’s played in every major sporting event.

John: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. How about — since you’re an accountant, I have to ask — balance sheet or income statement?

Dan: Oh, God! Can I just go cash flow statement?

John: Fancy pants. I don’t even know how to do a cash flow statement.

Dan: It’s probably one of those statements where people basically don’t know what’s going on anyways. And since everybody only talks about the balance sheet and income statement, I’ll go cash flow just for the sake of it.

John: Nice. I love it, man. I love it. How do you prefer more hot or cold?

Dan: Cold. If I could literally live in the fog or in the winter year round, I would do it. I’m probably in the wrong place of California. I should probably be in Alaska

John: I was going to say, “What?” They won’t let me leave. I’m not amazing. They got me here. Oh, this is an important one, toilet paper, roll over or under?

Dan: I haven’t even thought about that. That’s a good one.

John: Okay, all right. All right. Two more, favorite number?

Dan: 12.

John: 12. Is there a reason?

Dan: That’s my number way back when when I actually could be able to play.

John: There you go. Okay, all right. And the last one, the favorite thing you own or the favorite thing you have?

Dan: Favorite thing I have, I would say probably my companion which is Chunk. She’s my four-year-old silver Lab who is literally one of the best things that ever happened to me.

John: That’s fantastic, man. Very cool. Yeah. And silver Lab, it’s not often that you hear that. I mean, there’s always chocolate and yellows.

Dan: Imagine the color of a Weimaraner, and that’s what she is.

John: Ah, there you go. Okay, very cool. That’s awesome, man. So let’s talk running, man. Is this something that you were doing from when you were a kid, or did you get into it later on in life?

Dan: Oh, God, no, man. I mean, when I was growing up, it was volleyball, basketball, and everything that everybody hated was running, right? I always thought of it as a punishment because naturally it is because no one really likes doing it. I mean, everybody you talk to goes, “Oh, you’re a runner? I couldn’t even imagine doing that. Like running a mile, it sounds terrible.” I didn’t like it at first, but long story short, when I got my first job out of school, I was working in market hours. It was one of the things where I could get off work at a reasonable hour, and it’ll be sunny outside and I can actually go do it on my own because everybody was still working till five, six, seven o’clock at night. It did the natural progression. I started out at 5K, worked up to a 10K, half full, and then I even ran a 50-miler once, which was awful. I never recommend anybody do it.

John: Wow, 50 miles.

Dan: God, you’re 12 hours of grueling punishment. It was the worst thing I’ve ever done. But I’m glad I can do it for, I guess, humble bragging rights.

John: Right. So then when you’re on the podcast and I’m like, “What’s the farthest you ever ran?” You’re like, “Oh, 50 miles.” I’m like, “What?” That’s close to like San Francisco and back? I don’t know. That’s far, I mean 12 hours.

Dan: Yeah.

John: Wow. That’s impressive, man. Where did you do that?

Dan: First of all, it’s not impressive. It’s just plain stupid. But kudos to the people that continually do it and even do the hundred milers. That takes a ton of effort and determination. But I did it actually in the mountains — or not the mountains, I guess, the hills. We don’t have mountains here, in San Luis Obispo. So yeah, literally out and back, round and round around in loops. Yeah, it was terrible.

John: That’s amazing, though. What are you thinking like as you’re training to get up for it? I mean, how long do you train for that?

Dan: Oh, I mean, luckily, I had a buddy who did it with me, my buddy Dylan. There were days where we would go run 25 miles on Saturday and the next morning around 25 miles on Sunday just to be able to get used to that pounding that your body takes. It’s a kind of different mentality, though, because you’re not running for time necessarily. You’re running just to keep a pace that you can maintain for 50 miles. There’s a lot of walking uphills and that kind of stuff. So that’s why it takes a little bit longer.

John: Yeah, no, I mean, I would walk the whole thing. And even then, I would just take a nap. I would be like, “How long did it take you to run that?” You’re like, “Twelve miles.” Yeah, 12 days. Every couple miles, I just took a nap and then I’ll get around to it. But that’s such a great mentality of you not running for time. You’re just trying to maintain a steady pace which is really interesting. I mean, for the other runs, is it running for time as well, or maybe when you were earlier on, pretty competitive on that?

Dan: Yeah. So I mean, back in my 20s, when I actually run at a reasonable rate for somebody that’s my size, it was gearing for time because everybody, okay, first of all, if you ever get into marathon running and you’re starting to take it really seriously, everyone’s trying to go to mecca which is the Boston Marathon, right? So for somebody in my age group back then, you had to run basically a sub three-hour-and-five-minute marathon which equates to, I think, a little bit under seven minutes.

John: Wow.

Dan: Yeah, it sucks. It hurts. If you’re not built for it, it’s a lot of dedication and time that you put into that. But I would say that as I’ve gotten older and I haven’t been able to really run as fast as I used to anymore, I would say that it’s kind of transitioned to more of running for you and just completing the race itself. I think that it’s definitely hard as somebody who’s always been competitive, it’s been frustrating when I’m running and homie comes running past me. I might do that full as like literally 300 pounds, like why is he running faster than me? There’s that competitive instinct that kind of kicks in. But you just got to realize, man, as you get older, things start taking longer, you start slowing down, and you just have to kind of take it in perspective.

John: Yeah, I could totally hear you on that. I could easily say I enjoy running, but it’s hard to say I’m a runner, for some people, or whatever their hobby is. I love that mindset. I wish we had it earlier on in life of you’re doing it for you, and you’re just doing it to complete it. That’s what it’s really all about. Because let’s be honest, you’re not going to become a professional runner and get sponsored. That’s when it, okay, now you should care about your times because this is how you’re making money and this is your livelihood, but you’re actually paying money to go run.

Dan: Yeah.

John: While you’re doing that, who cares? It doesn’t matter.

Dan: You’ve touched on some pretty good points because I think that as you grow up, I don’t know, especially maybe my generation is a little bit different. I’m on the back end of the millennials, so I’m like almost, what is that? Gen X kind of dynamic?

John: Yeah.

Dan: It’s funny because I grew up and it was so competitive, right? Every weekend was club basketball tournaments, trying to get better to beat the next person next to you. Even just think about college where everybody has to have like a 5.0 GPA now.

John: Yeah, exactly.

Dan: I think there’s an unnecessary amount of competition that’s grilled into us in society. I think that if everybody kind of just took a step back and go, you know, reality, I just got to worry about me and not really care about what everybody else is doing in terms of being able to compete against them, I think we’d be better off and actually people are probably a lot happier and a lot less stressed out.

John: Yeah, for sure. Everyone has got their own lane. Just do your best within your lane. Some people have certain abilities that are better than others or that whole parable story of the fish on the first day of school, they taught swimming and the fish is like, “Oh, I’m amazing, I’m the best at everything.” And then the next day it was tree climbing and it’s like, “Oh, I’m failing and I’m miserable.” Find your lane and just live that. Don’t judge others for what their lane is and vice versa.

Dan: Sure.

John: They’re not judging you. Everyone’s celebrating you. They want you to do the run. Because I have to imagine, is this something that you share with coworkers throughout your career?

Dan: Not necessarily. I’m kind of one of those people that doesn’t. Initially, I didn’t ever really shared because for me, I’ve never been one of those people of like, “Oh, dude, I did this totally awesome thing. I ran a marathon this weekend.” But always there’s that friend who goes, “Oh, Dan ran a marathon this weekend,” and everybody ask you about it, right? And it’s always kind of embarrassing. You turn bright red because you’re like, “Oh, yeah, you know, I did that.” No big deal, whatever. I think there’s a level of — I’ve never been a very, I don’t know, social media outgoing person with that kind of stuff. I guess the humble bragging, if you want to call it, that’s never really been me. I think it’s funny because a lot of people are like, “Dude, you should share that. That’s rad.” I’m like, “Well, I just care about it. I don’t worry about other people caring about it.” I share with my parents because you share everything with your parents and my girlfriend, but that’s pretty much it, right?

John: Right. Yeah. No, I completely understand you on that because I’m pretty similar. It’s just with my job, I sort of have to share more things.

Dan: Absolutely, I get it.

John: But it is, not something that comes naturally in person, let alone on social media. And you’re not running these races to put on social media. You’re running the races for yourself.

Dan: My Twitter handle is actually started by one of my good friends because he’s like, “Dude, you got to promote yourself. Get out there,” whatever. I was like, “Okay, I guess we’ll see what this is all about.” I started doing it and it’s fun. You get a lot of attention. You get a lot of likes and retweets because I was predominantly doing it on Twitter. But there’s always in the back of my mind, it wasn’t necessarily who I was as a person. I think what actually also helped too was I wasn’t necessarily fast enough to be able to become those ambassadors or whatever you want to call them or the product managers or whatever.

So it’s funny enough because eventually I kind of stopped doing it, and then I kind of started doing more of finance and Twitter which is a totally different realm in itself. But I think it was good for me because I think that the lack of attention that I started getting was actually beneficial for me because it kind of made me realize like, hey, this isn’t really who you are and probably you should take a step back and maybe reevaluate it.

John: Yeah, because all social media does it just magnify whatever you really are. So it’s obvious that that’s not a person or that’s not who someone really is. Nowadays especially, people can sniff that out from a mile away if that isn’t real.

Dan: Oh, sure.

John: Did it ever cross your mind that someone’s going to judge you or think that you’re not very good at your job because of these outside-of-work interests?

Dan: Not necessarily. I think, if anything, running and accounting kind of go hand in hand. Each of them take a certain amount of discipline and dedication that you have to do. I guess it depends because originally when I started in accounting, I started at the typical stuffy accounting firm. You go to the bigger firm to get the kind of experience and everything like that. I guess everybody kind of saw that as you show up, you clock in, you do your work, you clock out, and no one was really wanting to share any of their experiences that they had. I think once I actually transferred over to Better Business Financial Services where it was more of a family, friendly atmosphere, that’s when I really started to kind of share what I was doing in terms of my running and so forth.

So I think there’s definitely an impact of the environment in which you are trying to share that has an influence on whether you can really show the person that you are or you just kind of have to keep to yourself that’s kind of the environment that you decide to go into.

John: Right, yeah. How much do you think it is on the tone at the top, if you will, of this is how the culture is, or how much is it on the individual to be like, well, you know what, I’ve got three really good friends and we genuinely care about each other type of thing and know what each other’s passions are? Is it a top down more, or do you think it’s an individual can make a difference?

Dan: I think that the top-down approach definitely sets the tone in which you can be your own individual self because at the partner level, if everybody is straight up boring or doesn’t have a personality or that kind of dynamic where it’s like, okay, I’m just going to be a cog in the wheel here, I don’t think you let anybody’s real individuality really shine and show versus if you go to a place where you have, like where I’m at right now, where there’s two other people that have great personalities, do a lot of different cool things and like kind of push you go find something that you want to do, I think that actually helps you and feel more comfortable in sharing your experiences that you have as an individual.

John: Yeah, definitely. I’ve done some speaking or even consulting with some organizations where you walk in and you’re like, “Holy crap!” It’s like black and white. Is there even oxygen in here? No one looks up or even looks you in the eye and you’re like, “Wow, you guys work here on purpose?” It’s nutty. I mean, it can certainly help open some things up. I think that relationships just go deeper. When it comes to attracting and retaining talent, that’s what people are looking for because there are options out there that are giving them that. It’s an easy switch. It’s not that hard.

One thing that I’m curious about is just — because some people think these passions that are outside-of-work interests are distractions or whatever. Do you feel like it gave you a skill set? Especially when you said that running and accounting go hand in hand, do you feel like running gave you a skill that you were able to bring to the office to make you better at your job?

Dan: Oh, totally, man. I think that because running, you know how you become a better runner is you run. You have to have the dedication and the mindset that you’re going to be out there for two, three, four hours, and it’s a grind, right? Because the only way you can get better is more reps and you put more practice into it. I think that happens with accounting, especially on the tax side, right? As a first year staff accountant, you are literally probably green, right? If didn’t have an internship and —

John: I mean, come on, let’s be honest, the internship is basically ice cream sundaes and all the cool stuff. “Hey, let’s go out to the client,” and it’s like the most amazing client ever.

Dan: Yeah, right and you’re like, “Let’s go to Disney.” You’re like, “Awesome.” But then when it’s not your internship anymore and you’re actually a full-time person, you’re like stuck in a cubicle.

John: Right, right, that does happen. That does happen for sure.

Dan: Full disclosure, I’ve never worked at a Big Four, so I don’t know if that’s necessarily how it is. But for my friends who have, that’s what I’ve heard it’s like. I would say that the grind and getting used to that is something that really is going to help you in the long run just because, I mean, let’s get real, accounting, especially if you go into tax, that’s how basically we do, we don’t do any audit. Six months out of the year, you are stuck to your desk. You have to be able to sit here for 10, 12 hours a day and just grind it out. I think that’s definitely something running has taught me as an individual. I just prepare.

John: I completely understand that. And that’s why it’s always fascinating to me of every interview I do here is just there’s a way that your passions make you better at your job. It’s always cool to hear it because at no point in your business school education did anyone ever tell you to go run 50 miler.

Dan: Oh, no, man. Not at all.

John: Yeah, the people that tell you to do that hate you. That’s who tells you to do that. You know what? I don’t like Dan very much. Go away for 12 hours.

Dan: Yeah, that’s right.

John: Honestly, it’s impressive that you did that. It’s great that you did it together with someone. Do you ever see colleagues or clients out running or do some runs with them on occasion in your career?

Dan: So here’s the problem that I have, man. So I’m one of those guys that gets up at like 4:00 a.m. I’m one of those that if you’re driving out on the road at five o’clock in the morning, I’m the dude with the headlamp running.

John: Oh, my gosh! Yeah, you’re intense. That’s intense.

Dan: Yeah, I don’t know. I think I’m a little nuts when it comes to that dynamic. But I’m one of those that just likes get it over with and plus too like outside it’s a different vibe when you’re running in the dark. It’s actually like almost your senses get heightened when you’re running in the dark as opposed to when you’re running outside, it’s kind of like tu tu doo tu doo . But I don’t know, you kind of have to be on your game and your mindset, and your focus has to be better in the dark because let’s get real, you can either be running or you can be sleeping. So 99% of people are going to pick sleeping. There’s definitely a different mindset when it goes to getting up and being dedicated.

I’ve always been one of those — or actually, no, I haven’t. When I started my market hour gig, when I transitioned to a different job, I kind of just stuck with getting up at 5:00 a.m., and I just decided to go exercise at that point.

John: Ah, rather than having to go to work, yeah, I’ll just do the exercising now and then get out of the way. Man, I love it. I think that’s great. That’s really great.

So before we wrap this up, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that thinks that, oh, well, no one cares about my thing, or whatever my passion is has nothing to do with my job, so I’ll just keep it to myself?

Dan: A couple of things. I think that, A, as you get older, or if you get started at a younger age, really find a place that fits you the best in your personality only because I think that granted there’s always, if you go to the bigger firms where they maybe not have as much personality as a smaller one, for example, you’re going to get a lot of experience. But once you get that, you need to be happy in what you’re doing. I think that if you go to a firm where if you have people at the top who are very interested in what you’re doing and very personable and are in the jeans and the flip flops and that’s what you’re comfortable in, go there. Be happy in what you’re doing.

Also, be yourself. I can’t tell you how big of a relief it was when I finally transitioned from the suit and tie to the t-shirt and jeans and flip flops, how much happier you are at your job. Quite honestly, a lot of times the clients that you’re meeting with, especially the ones that I meet with, are wearing board shorts and flip flops. You feel more comfortable. You’re not sitting there in a suit and tie, thinking that you’re my dad’s accountant. You’ve been doing this for 50 years and you have a pocket protector. I think there’s a level of comfort that people get when you are yourself because I’ve been in meetings where I haven’t been, and you can hear crickets chirp. But once you start realizing who you are and you become more comfortable in your own skin, I think you can have better actual overall interactions with clients and just people in general.

John: Yeah, that’s awesome. Rather than trying to play a part in a movie, Keanu Reeves method style, if you will, as comeback to the beginning, look at me, everybody.

Dan: Oh, my God. Full disclaimer, the reason why his movies are so much better is because he’s such a bad actor that it’s almost hilarious watching it, right?

John: Right.

Dan: He’s the same dude in every single movie and it’s so bad, but you can’t stop watching it.

John: Yeah, it makes you feel like you could be an actor.

Dan: Yeah, exactly.

John: But it’s so true. Everyone, they come out of school and they try and be what they think they’re supposed to be rather than themselves. I don’t even think that the size of the organization matters, to be honest, because there are plenty of smaller companies that don’t have a great culture or really care genuinely about their people. So it’s just find the place that fits you, you’re happy and you feel like you belong and they care about you and vice versa, you care about them. Then that reciprocity is real. So that’s really great advice, really great advice.

So it’s only fair that I do turn the tables and let you rapid-fire question me like I did in the beginning. And if you ask me favorite actor, I’ll say Keanu Reeves just to make you happy.

Dan: These questions are a little bit more involved and I apologize, but what would you be doing if you weren’t doing this research?

John: Oh, wow. Gosh! Man, I don’t even know. Yeah, I’d probably be at some chuckle hut in the middle of Iowa or some comedy club, just getting ready to do a show. I just got really fortunate that I was at a conference. A guy who had remembered me from 12 years prior at my first PwC office, a guy who I had never worked with ever. I’m pretty positive I never met him. He saw the list of speakers and said, “Oh, I know John Garrett. That’s the guy who did comedy at night.” That’s kind of been the seed that has started all of this. Yeah, I’d probably still be going down the comedy route and trying to make that happen.

Dan: Sure, yeah. I think honestly, for what it’s worth, you’ve been doing a great job at kind of breaking the shell of the stereotypical accountant. I think all of us are going to appreciate what you’re doing.

John: Well, thanks, man. Wow, no pressure on me. It really means a lot, honestly. Thank you.

Dan: You’re welcome. Last one, what would it take to make you go back to PwC?

John: Oh, actually, they just brought me back like a couple of months ago to do their promotion day.

Dan: Oh, wow.

John: Yeah, we did this whole PwC’s Got Talent. It was awesome. There were six different people who showcased their talents. One was a classically trained violinist. One does yoga like crazy yoga. Actually Natalia, she was just on a couple of weeks ago. So we had this whole showcase and I got to tell people, this is normal. This is the stereotype. The people that are going to come up here, this is the stereotype. But as far as to go back every day to PwC, yeah, I’m pretty sure — Jake Johannsen had a funny joke about this. We were talking once and he’s like, “Yeah, not only can I not get back on the bus, I don’t even know where the bus stops anymore. I’m so far removed. I would have to go back to college. I’m like 400 hours behind on CPE. I would just have to start over just like John just start over.”

Dan: Yeah, man.

John: But I mean, I do love impacting organizations from this side. So it’s kind of cool to be able to touch so many more people this way. But yeah, it’s fun to go back in that capacity and just bring some of that to the event because I always approach every corporate event as what do I want to see if I was in the audience because I literally used to be in the audience. So it’s that boring cookie cutter reading every word off of every slide, it’s just not going to work. Nobody wants to see that. Yeah, so that’s a funny little twist to your question that you probably weren’t anticipating.

Dan: Actually, that’s what I was looking for. But, yeah, I’ll take it for what it is.

John: Exactly. No, but this was so great, Dan. Thank you so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Dan: I appreciate it, man. Thanks for having me.

John: Yeah, that was so great. Everyone listening, if you’d like to see some pictures of Dan running or outside of work or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. While you’re on the page, please click that big green button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that no matter our job or technical expertise, there’s a human side to all of us.