martial arts Tag

Welcome to Episode 547 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiates you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the workplace because of it.

If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe on the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Tate Hackert. He’s the founder and President of ZayZoon. And now, he’s with me here today. Tate, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And

Tate: Thanks for having me, man.

John: Yeah. This is gonna be a blast. This is gonna be so much fun ’cause I know nothing about any of this, so this is gonna be so fun. But I have 17 rapid-fire questions. Get to know Tate out of the gate here. So you’re buckled in, ready to go. All right, here we go. Favorite movie of all time?

Tate: Blow, Johnny Depp.

John: Oh, okay. There you go. Solid pick. Solid pick. How about when it comes to puzzles? Sudoku, Crossword, or a Jigsaw puzzle?

Tate: Ooh, I play neither of them, so I’d have to say something random like a game of Risk or chess.

John: Oh, Risk. Nice. And Chess. Okay. Solid. All right. We can keep hanging out. All right. We’re good. We’re good. How about a favorite color?

Tate: Favorite color’s purple.

John: Oh, really? Okay. I don’t get that one very often.

Tate: Highly underrated color.

John: It is highly underrated. And there’s such a spectrum there as well.

Tate: Exactly. Exactly.

John: Yeah, absolutely. How about a least favorite color?

Tate: I’m not a huge red fan, I don’t think. Yeah, I’ll say red.

John: Red Works. Absolutely. Are you more talk or text?

Tate: I’m more text. Text for business. Talk for personal.

John: Oh, okay. All right. A little bit of both.

Tate: Oddly enough. Yeah.

John: Yeah. Interesting. All right. How about a favorite comedian?

Tate: Oh, John, I can’t say you, can I?

John: Yeah. Now, you’re just kissing up. Now, you’re just kissing up. Right? Yeah, you can if you want, but I’m sure it’s somebody else.

Tate: Honestly, I’m a big fan of whatever’s on the Netflix special that month, so whatever the flavor of the week is. I feel like Netflix has been putting us some solid specials.

John: Yeah, tons of good ones. And buddies of mine too like Ryan Hamilton, Nate Bargatze, like those guys coming out with the specials, which is great. It’s really cool to see them doing that. All right. Very good. How about a least favorite vegetable?

Tate: You know, I still don’t like the Brussels sprouts unless they’re like cooked perfectly. You know, when they grill the Brussel sprouts and they throw some bacon on there, a lot of salt?

John: Right.

Tate: Yeah, that’s all right, but I still can’t get over them.

John: Make them not healthy at all. Like basically, it’s the only way I’ll eat ’em too.

Tate: It’s like the charred ones. Yeah. Those are solid.

John: Right. Exactly. Yeah. There you go. How about more Star Wars or Star Trek?

Tate: So John, I have a confession. I have not watched either.

John: Oh, okay. Nothing of neither. Okay. Wow. All right. Fair enough.

Tate: You know, I haven’t been a very big— What do you call that? Like fantasy fiction?

John: Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah, that works. Yeah.

Tate: I’ve never seen Lord of the Rings. I’ve never seen Star Trek, Star Wars.

John: No. Fair enough. Fair enough. This one you gotta answer. PC or Mac?

Tate: Mac.

John: Mac. Yeah. Okay. All right. Ooh, this is a good one. Cheeseburger or pizza?

Tate: Cheeseburger.

John: Oh. Oh, okay. You didn’t even think about that one. You’re like done.

Tate: No. Double In-N-Out. That’s what it’s all about.

John: Oh, oh, okay. Okay. All right. Do you prefer more hot or cold?

Tate: Hot.

John: Hot. Okay. All right. How about ice cream? Do you get it in a cup or in a cone?

Tate: Cup.

John: Cup. Yeah, me too. I think you get more, I think. I don’t know. That’s what I tell myself anyway.

Tate: I feel like I can eat more and not feel as bad.

John: Ah, yeah, there you go. ‘Cause you’re not eating the cup too.

Tate: Exactly. Yeah.

John: Yeah, yeah. There you go. All right. All right. I see where you’re going. How about a favorite sports team?

Tate: Vancouver Canucks.

John: Oh, Canucks. All right. There you go. All right. How about a favorite number?

Tate: 7.

John: 7? Is there a reason?

Tate: No, it’s just the first number that came to mind.

John: Yeah, I know. I mean, it’s my favorite number too. Mostly sports related, but yeah. And then it’s pretty popular. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or a real book?

Tate: A real book. Yeah. I like to feel them.

John: No, it’s definitely a lot better. All right, two more.

Ooh, this is a fun one. Favorite Disney character. There’s like a million of them. So it’s like anything animated I’ll take pretty much.

Tate: Yeah. Yeah. Gimme a couple of yours, John.

John: Oh, Goofy and Donald Duck easily when it comes to the old school classics.

Tate: Yeah. I’ll take some Donald Duck action for sure.

John: Yeah, it’s hilarious. And he’s wearing no pants and no one ever says anything about this. Like anybody? No? Okay. Like nothing. He’s got a shirt on, but no pants.

Tate: Yeah, I’m Team Donald for sure.

John: Yeah. Yeah. All right. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Tate: So as of recent, I just bought an electric scooter. So I’m on this road trip right now across the US, and we’re in this RV. And of course, as you can imagine, trying to park the RV in downtown course and whatnot is just so difficult. And so, we went to Target and bought these scooters. They’re like $350 and they get you, I think, 6 miles or so. They go 15 miles an hour. And that has been a lifesaver. You pull ’em out, you rip on ’em, it’s beautiful. Best purchase.

John: That’s fantastic. So they’re like the ones that are just parked around downtowns, but they’re probably a little bit better and you don’t have to rent it because it’s like you just have your own.

Tate: Exactly. Exactly. And Target has a 90-day return policy, so we’ll see how much I like it after the rodeo.

John: What do you know? On the 89th day, I decided I need to return it and go to the next Target and buy a new one. And then you just do that every quarter. I see what’s going on here. I like that. That’s a good idea. So your favorite thing is technically the receipt that you’re keeping for the scooter.

Tate: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

John: It’s probably your favorite part of it. That’s great, man. Well, let’s talk about martial arts. We do boxing and jujitsu. And I guess just what are the differences there between the two?

Tate: I’ve been involved in martial arts my whole life really. You know, I was first put into jujitsu when I was 5 years old. And then most of the clubs that you’re a part of, they tend to morph over the years into a place that doesn’t just do one thing. And so, they’ll do jujitsu, and boxing, and kickboxing or whatever else. Right? And especially, I think, with the rise of like MMA over the years and the popularity UFC, sort of like a multidisciplinary club is what’s most popular. And so, you know, I started with jujitsu, but it really morphed into a lot of boxing over the years. And I think jujitsu is like a really solid foundation and a solid base. But you know, boxing is just a fun sport. They’re both really fun. I think of jujitsu as more of like a game of chess. And boxing’s a little bit more of just a bit more intensity I suppose.

John: Yeah. So jujitsu is feet and hands, I guess. And then boxing, obviously just hands, like just punching obviously. I know boxing ’cause it’s on TV more. But you know, when UFC, or MMA, or all that stuff, like that’s more jujitsu style.

Tate: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

John: Okay.

Tate: I mean, like you can kind of think of it anything from a throw to the ground, this jujitsu, and then rolling around on the ground essentially. So when people use the language like grappling, they’re talking about this.

John: Oh, yeah. Okay. That makes sense.

Tate: Wrestling movement on the ground. Right? Usually ending in some sort of submission. So, an arm bar or a choke.

John: Got it. Oh, okay. All right. I was thinking of something totally different then. All right, no, that makes sense then. Yeah, that’s cool, man. And do you feel like this is something that gives you a skill that you bring to work at all?

Tate: Yeah, yeah, certainly. I think martial arts is a really neat sport because it is entirely individual, but yet there’s such a team behind you and there’s that camaraderie that exists at a gym. And especially if you’re part of like a really inclusive leave the ego at the door type style gym, it really does like teach you that like discipline, and sportsmanship, and team, and how to lead, and how to follow in some instances, and sort of that ebb and flow that you need to interact in an organization, right? Like when to speak up, when to not speak up. And so, I always found that really interesting about martial arts. And absolutely, like it’d be difficult maybe to pinpoint like an exact use case of how that maybe gets applied in the workplace, but certainly it does.

John: I would imagine discipline as well, I mean, you know, when it comes to work and focus and also just that mental toughness. I mean, I would imagine there’s a couple times when you get punched in the face or you’re getting arm barred or whatever. Like that’s not comfortable, you know, and yet you fight through it and you get through it. And you know, it’s similar at work where you figuratively get punched in the face, you know.

Tate: Yeah. It’s certainly a war of attrition at times. And then, as well, like I was fortunate enough to actually have like full-on fights like in front of a crowd and whatnot. Right?

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Tate: That’s something that from a— I don’t know the word that you use. I guess like it feels silly to say like courage or— but just like being able to get up there and put yourself out there, I think, is such a scary concept and definitely something that like goes across various parts of your life.

So yeah, it’s been a fun sport to be involved in. It’s one that I was super, super involved in when I was younger, you know, maybe between the age of like 12 and 19. It was something I did religiously every day of the week, if not a couple days of the week. Sorry, a couple times a day. And it was something that my cousin and I have always been very, very close. And he actually went pro, lived in Vegas for a while, and did the whole pro fighter thing and part of that whole UFC circuit and everything else. But him and I have always been incredibly tight from a young age.

Like he’s 3-1/2 years older than me. And it was a time to like hang out, but also the to and from the gym. So the closest gym to us growing up was a 35-minute drive away, 40-minute drive away. And so, there was like that time before and after of just sort of like brotherhood that we had together and it was all built around this like concept of the gym. Right? So it’s always been a very big part of my life in that sense. And then I’m 30 years old now. And over the last 10 years, it’s something that sort of comes and goes just depending on the months or the years. But you know, it’s definitely a very big part of my life still.

John: But it’s always there, you know. Like it’s not something that, yeah, if I told you you could never do this again, you would be like “Oh, you’re getting ready to see what an arm bar is, John.” You know? Because you would be like “No, those are fighting words.” You know? And that’s an important piece of who you are and that’s cool, man. And so, I mean, you mentioned being able to get in the ring, I guess, or whatever in front of crowds. Do you have any favorite memories from your time doing this?

Tate: Yeah. So I have a favorite memory, not necessarily from like the fight itself. But the first time I ever went to Vegas, I was 17 years old and my cousin at the time— So I don’t know if you know anything about the UFC or the Ultimate Fighter, but back in— it would have been 2008— yeah, 2008-2009— the UFC, the Ultimate Fighter was a show on Spike TV.

John: Right. Oh, yeah.

Tate: And it was so, so popular. And it’s really what like skyrocketed the popularity of UFC. And the concept was there was two coaches, two professional fight coaches. They each had a team behind them and they all lived in this fighter house. And you know, basically, the last man standing got a contract with UFC. And so, at that time, Wanderlei Silva was one of the UFC champs. And he had kind of gone off and wanted to start his own version of this called Wan TV. And so, he had a full production crew in Las Vegas. He had a fighter house that he got for a team.

And my cousin, Mike, was a part of this. So he was selected to be one of the fighters on this show. And so, when I was 17, he’s been living down in Vegas now for a couple months as part of this experience. And I went down to visit him. I mean, I think there’s like a couple things that came out of that that was just so cool. Like, first, it’s like you see these people on TV all the time. And as someone that’s like a super big fan of fighting and being such a big piece of my life, it was so cool to be able to interact with these people like in a gym setting.

And then the second thing that’s a memory from that, I don’t know if it’s a good memory, I stayed in the fighter house with all these professional fighters. And I was only there for 3 days. And so, I didn’t buy groceries. I was eating out. But the one morning, I wanted some toast with peanut butter ’cause I knew that we were gonna go to the gym. I didn’t have time to go to Denny’s to get breakfast. And so, I just grabbed a slice of bread and some peanut butter in the fridge.

John: Right.

Tate: I’m not thinking anything of it. And one of the guys got really, really pissed at me. Basically saying like this is my food and a bunch of profanity.

John: Yeah. Like you stole it. And it’s like a slice of bread. Like “Come on, man.”

Tate: Like fair enough. Like, you know, I wasn’t really thinking at that time. But at the same time, yeah, a tablespoon of peanut butter and a slice of bread, like come on.

John: Yeah. Right, right, right.

Tate: But yeah. So my cousin had to come in and sort of like diffuse the situation a little bit.

John: And those are not guys you want to like make angry, you know.

Tate: Exactly.

John: But I just remember that being very funny afterwards anyways.

Tate: Yeah, yeah. But I mean, it’s cool to be able to hang out with them and like yeah. And you’ll remember that about that fighter and be like, you know, because I mean it’s the same thing with me and comedians. People are “Well, what’s so and so like?” And 99% of the time, they’re super cool. But once in a while, it’s the 1% that’s like ” Oh, I don’t know if I’m allowed to— Like should I tell you and like ruin it for you like ’cause this is your favorite comedian and I’m gonna be like total jerk like total jerk?”

John: Don’t meet your heroes thing. Right?

Tate: Yeah, exactly. But it is cool to be able to lift the curtain and then you get to see the behind the scenes because on TV it’s not real, you know. It’s only what makes it to the television and then you get to see all the other stuff that’s behind the scenes of all the work and all the grind really and all that.

That’s cool, man. So this is something that you do share at work? Have you talked about it at work?

John: Yeah. So you know what? ZayZoon’s interesting. I have no idea if this is normal or not. I don’t think it’s super normal, but we have a thing called drink and thinks. And so, every single week, we rotate through different teams. So you know, software development, product, customer support, etc., etc. They’ll pick someone from that team to basically lead, drink, and think for the day. And drink and think is this 45-minute session typically on a Friday afternoon. But again, it can be whenever.

And sometimes, those people share things about a new product at work or something that they came across, something interesting. But 90% of the time, they’re sharing stories about their life. And so, like our VP of tech, he has this huge Lego hobby. He actually has like 15,000 followers on Instagram for this Lego account where he built different structures and stuff. And so, he like shared that. We had another guy just last week shared his passion for Sumo wrestling.

John: Okay.

Tate: And so, yeah, we definitely like filter through that and make it part of the culture at ZayZoon where it’s like one of our core values is mastery. And mastery is this concept of like just continually learning and having this insatiable thirst for knowledge. And so, we really see that like people sharing their individual— I mean like What’s Your “And”?— I mean, people sharing that at work is definitely embedded deep into our culture. And one of those ways that we flex that is through that drink and think.

John: And why do you think it’s so important to share the human side to each of us, you know, share those ands?

Tate: Well, I mean, for us, like we’re a completely distributed team. So we’re 80 individuals. We’re still fairly small as a company. But you know, at 80 people, you start to feel things break a little bit, especially when you’re growing fast and people are coming on quite quickly. The company’s changing week by week. And I think it’s important to share that kind of human element because you might not have that water cooler chat. You might not have that out for lunch with your coworkers type thing. And so, being able to share that over Google Meets is impactful for kind of I guess just creating a deeper relationship with your coworkers.

John: Yeah. And I mean, as the founder, like it’s okay to not be “working” to get to know each other because there’s benefits in the long run for that ’cause a lot of people will think “Well, you know, there’s work to be done. Why are you humanizing?” Why are you actually talking to each other type of thing. And it’s great that you have that perspective.

Tate: I think, as an entrepreneur, like work is life and that sort of work life balance maybe all becomes one. And so, when I’m doing martial arts, for example, I think of that as just one facet of my life. And I think of it as a way that I can better perform at work because it allows me that meditative sort of release. And so, I think the same thing with our staff, right? Like, yeah, absolutely, sharing, and talking, and interacting with your coworkers is 100% part of work because that’s what makes people want to be at work. It’s what makes people want to stay at ZayZoon potentially longer than they would otherwise. Right? And I mean, employee retention, and happiness, morale is obviously incredibly important to a company from a feel good perspective, but also to a company from an economics perspective.

John: Absolutely. I mean, it’s straight dollars but it’s also, like you said, good karma and feel good perspective of that. And I love that that’s a thing. That every Friday afternoon, like a different group is presenting. And you know, on occasion, it turns human and brings that human out from behind the job title, which is really, really fantastic.

Tate: And I think like you asked me specifically, like do I bring that out ever? So yeah, like, I mean, it’s part of the drink and think. One thing I try to do ’cause I might not be that interesting, so I try to flex my network and bring interesting people in.

John: Okay. All right.

Tate: So my drink and thinks typically are like guest speakers and that might range from— We had a fitness coach that coached professional athletes and stuff. And so, he kind of drew analogies to the coaching professional athletes and leadership in the workplace. But specific to this discussion is Ryan James. So Ryan James is an ex-UFC fighter and a friend of mine that I brought in to do a drink and think. And it was really, really cool because you see the team like sink their teeth into the question and answer part, right? Like some of the questions you asked me like how do you have that consistency day after day, like were you scared walking into the ring? How do you let go of that fear? And those are questions that are applied to every part of your life, right? It’s not just the sport or the activity that you’re in.

John: No, that’s awesome, man. But it lets people see that side of Tate ’cause I mean some people that come in new, they might be intimidated. “Oh, he’s the founder.” And it’s like “Nah, it’s just Tate. He gets punched in the face. Go talk to him. He’s cool.”

Like you know? Rather, he punches people in the face. No. No. I’m kidding. But it humanizes you, you know. And it brings out these other sides to you that now people are like “Oh, okay.” And then if they have a similar interest, then you guys have something to bond over in a cool way. And I love that that’s a thing there. Like it’s not forced. It’s not orchestrated. It’s just if I were to start, it’s like Yeah, we do this drink and think on Fridays. It’s what we do, you know, and then it’s just a thing, which I love.” That’s so awesome, man. That’s so awesome. And so, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe feels like, well, I have an “and”, but no one’s gonna care ’cause it has nothing to do with my job?

Tate: So I haven’t been a part of the corporate world ever. My background is commercial fishing and construction. And so, I’ve now been in the tech world for 8 years. But you know, me personally having a corporate job, like I can’t believe that that’s actually a thing that people aren’t about to talk about in the workplace. Like everything that I’m saying, everything that I do I just assume is normal.

John: You would hope, but it’s not like unfortunately.

Tate: Exactly. Like we’re doing this RV tour right now across the US. And so, I’m setup in this ZayZoon branded RV, and we’re going coast to coast visiting all of our clients and employees that use us and the partners that we’re partnered with. And we’re bringing along team members for each like of the stint like of the trip. Right? And it’s cool to me to like hear them say “Hey, like it is so great that you’re including us in this. It’s so great that like you’re so chill.” And again, like in my mind, it’s just normal.

John: Yeah, right. No, same. Like, it’s like “Well, how would you expect me to be? Like what did you think it was gonna be?” Like you know? And it’s like “I’m just me, man.”

Tate: But I think we’ve done a pretty good job at ZayZoon of building a culture and an organization that’s as horizontal as it can be. Of course, the key decision maker and whatnot is still very important. And you can’t build through consensus, but you can gather inputs and then make a decision.

John: Yeah. Somebody has to make a call at some point.

Tate: Exactly. Exactly. But I really can’t believe that there’s organizations out there that would stop someone from talking about their “and.”

John: More than you would like to imagine. Or it’s maybe they don’t slap on the wrist, but it’s not encouraged, you know. So then people feel like, well, if no one else is talking about it, then it’s a trap, so I can’t talk about it sort of a thing. And I mean, when I worked at PWC, I mean, I was too dumb to know that I was supposed to just say— You know, when people are like “Hey, what’d you do this weekend”, “Nothing.” You know? It’s like “No, I drove to this city and did comedy shows.” And then people are like “Wait, you did what?” You know? And it’s like time out, hold on, you know? And then that’s cool because people remember you then. Everyone’s good at their jobs. I mean, we’re all good at our work. I mean, come on, you know? Plus or minus, we’re all good.

So you’re not standing out from the work side. And so, you stand out from the human side with the technical skills. Like that combo is what makes you unique and everyone that works at ZayZoon as well. So I love that that’s a thing there, you know. It’s just how it is. So that’s awesome, man. Very, very cool. Well, this has been so much fun, but I feel like it’s only fair— I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning. So we can turn the tables and we’ll make it The Tate Hacker Podcast if you would like to ask me any questions yet. You got Anything for me? Whatever you want to ask.

Tate: Well, I mean, so being a comedian and going up on stage, I think that’s probably very akin to being a fighter and going into the ring.

John: Very much so, dude, like so much.

Tate: It’s an individual sport, and you are for sure figuratively getting punched in the face. I’m curious. Do you have a moment that you can recall that was just you felt absolutely terrible walking off the stage? And kind of walk me through like the thought that was going through or maybe what made you feel terrible in the first place. Was it internal feelings or was it someone in the crowd heckling and then how’d you overcome that?

John: That’s a great question, man. Yeah. I mean, there’s lots of times ’cause, I mean, especially when you’re new, I mean, you’re not good. And the only way to get good is to get in the ring. You know, there’s no body bags for comedy. Like I can’t just like practice. It’s you gotta get in front of a live audience and let it rip and then decide if it’s funny or not. And so, yeah, I mean, when I was newer, I mean for sure like maybe a bar show or something like that where people “When are you gonna talk about midgets?” And it’s like “I’m not.” You know? And I’m also not gonna swear or like do stupid like— you know, it’s not a bunch of poop jokes. It’s like they wanna hear a joke about like a drunk midget walking through a Taco Bell drive-thru ’cause that’s so funny. Oh, my goodness. And especially when I was new, I was more clever than funny.

It was a little more clever than funny. And I’ll admit that. And so, you had to learn to like still be clever, but more funny and yeah. So you just record the audio and then listen and be like “Oh, that’s where I messed up” or “You know, that’s not my audience. We’re not sumo wrestling. Like that’s not my thing. Like we’re doing jujitsu. Like I’m not doing sumo, you know, or whatever.” I’m trying to think of whatever the parallel would be, but you just know where you belong and whatever. And then the one in particular was a— it was a corporate audience and it was for real estate agents. And they do not laugh at themselves for a second.

And all of their headshots are like glamor shots from like the early ’90s with like lasers, and poof hair, and whatever. And even though now they’re 30 years older, but you can’t make fun of that ’cause it’s all of them. So, you know, it’s not just like one of ’em didn’t update. It’s “No, none of you have.” And so, I found that out too where it’s like, yeah, when you bomb away on something that’s clearly obvious to everyone else, that’s really sensitive point for them I guess. But yeah, you just learn. I mean, I would imagine the same. Like you’ve been in some sparring type things where you move the wrong way and you get popped, well, I’m not gonna do that again except for yours are more physical bruising. Mine’s a more ego bruising, which I feel like lasts longer sadly, you know.

Tate: I was gonna say that’s probably worse. I have an answer by the way for my favorite comedian. Yeah, you talked about like being clever and storytelling. Mike Birbiglia.

John: Oh, Birbiglia. Yeah, absolutely.

Tate: Birbiglia’s hands down my favorite comedian. What was his last special? God Hates Jokes, was it?

John: Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Tate: I think it was something like that and then he had the other one, My Girlfriend’s Boyfriend.

John: Right. Exactly.

Tate: Just incredible how he tells the story the entire time and ties it back.

John: Yeah. It is very much the storytelling side of it. Yeah, absolutely. Very cool, man. Thank you so much, Tate, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This has been super, super fun.

Tate: Awesome. Yeah. Thanks for having me, man. Appreciate it.

John: Everyone listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Tate in action or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to read the book. So, thanks again for subscribing to the podcast on Apple Podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 521 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work.

And super cool, Michael Puck was a guest on the show. He’s a dog photography. It’s his “and.” And he’s teamed up with other dog photographers to have globaldogart.com. You could check it out. Research has confirmed that pictures of dogs increase our well-being, reduced stress, foster social connections. So maybe that’s for your home, maybe it’s for your home office, maybe it’s for your office. But check out globaldogart.com. All the proceeds, 100% of the proceeds go to save 1 million dogs by 2030. So check that out, globaldogart.com.

And don’t forget to check out my book. What’s Your “And”? You can go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there for the podcast guests as well as links for the book. And don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Bianca Mueller. She’s the community manager for Wagepoint. You’ll see her at CPB Ignite and Wage Fest coming up. And now, she’s with me here today. Bianca, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Bianca: Thanks for having me. I’m super excited.

John: Oh, this is gonna be so much fun despite how you sounded.

Bianca: Are you ready for me? That’s what I wanna know.

John: Unleash. I’ve met you before. We’ve hung out at a conference before. Like I want the real Bianca coming out here. This is gonna be great. And I have some questions that I didn’t ask you when we did hang out and I probably should have.

Bianca: Let’s ask them for the greater public. Shall we?

John: Right. Here we go. I actually crowdsource these, so they’re what everyone wants to know. I’m kidding. They’re just my— The look on your eyes is like “Oh, no!”

Bianca: I love it. I’m transparent. Let’s go. Fire away.

John: Yeah, here we go. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Bianca: Ooh, Star Wars.

John: Okay. All right. Seemed close though. All right. How about your computer? Are you more PC or Mac?

Bianca: 100% PC. My son has problems with his iPhone and I’m lost.

John: Right? Oh, I’m the same. I’m not cool enough for any of that stuff. Oh, this is a fun one. Toilet paper roll over or under?

Bianca: Oh, like that’s my only OCD. It’s definitely has to be over. I switch it at strangers houses and in public bathrooms.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so good. And I will tell you, you are not alone because there are so many people that have been on the podcast that are the same as you. For sure. I had one person even say it’s over. And if you don’t think so, this conversation is over also.

Bianca: Ouch.

John: That was great. How about a favorite animal? Any animal?

Bianca: Oh, Tiger. I have actually have a little story. My family, we did this big road trip down to San Diego. I live on the West Coast in Vancouver. And the only thing I purchased on that whole trip when I was about 14 was this huge poster from the San Diego Zoo of a big like snow tiger.

John: Oh, yeah!

Bianca: And my parents had to cart this in the car and not dent it.

John: Not dent it. Yeah, oh, totally.

Bianca: Yeah. That was hanging on my wall until I was at like 25. I took that with me to my first apartment and everything.

John: That’s so good. So good. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Bianca: Ooh, Sudoku and jigsaw for sure.

John: Oh, okay. All right. So, a little bit of both.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: A jigsaw puzzles of tigers.

Bianca: Ooh, that would be fun. I should put that on my Amazon gift list or whatever.

John: Right? There we go. How about a favorite color?

Bianca: Ooh, pink.

John: Pink. Nice. There you go. How about a least favorite color?

Bianca: Brown.

John: Brown. Yeah. The least of the least popular. Yeah. That’s brown. Yeah. How about more talk or text?

Bianca: Oh, it depends on the time of day and who it is actually. I’m a talker for sure. Anyone knows me knows I don’t shut up, but I will text all day long if I feel like you don’t have time to talk to me. I’ll just text you and yeah.

John: Right. ‘Cause then I’m able to still talk to you even though you’re busy like with something else. Like I’m still getting at you. So there you go. All right. All right. How about a favorite cereal as adult, as a kid, whatever? Favorite cereal.

Bianca: Granola.

John: Granola! Okay.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: All right.

Bianca: I love granola.

John: There you go. That works. I anticipated something wild and crazy. And you come at me with granola. I’m like “Ah, good to know.” I learned something new here. And since you have the bookkeeping background, balance sheet or income statement?

Bianca: Ooh, balance sheet all day long. All day long. Because, you know, it’s interesting you say that because if you’re a sole proprietor, like your income statement’s the only thing you really think about.

But like in the backend, your bookkeepers got the balance sheet going. So it’s like this hidden like, I don’t know, star that needs to— It needs to add up. It’s what makes everything add up.

John: Yeah. It’s hard to hide stuff there. Yeah, that’s for sure. Very good. How about— Ooh, in Canada, this might be a fun one. Summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Bianca: I’m spring. I do really like the crisp air coming in the fall. Like fall is beautiful here. Like September. I love September in British Columbia. But I appreciate the warmer temperatures.

John: Right? We’re getting out of it. Like coming out of winter. It’s like, yeah, not going into it.

Bianca: Spring. And also, my birthday is in the spring, so it’s another reason to celebrate.

John: Done. Hello? I just moved mine from fall to spring just because of that. There we go. How about a favorite number?

Bianca: 4?

John: 4? Okay. Is there a reason or just—

Bianca: No. Because everyone else picks 3. I don’t think—

John: One better than you.

Bianca: I feel like I can’t do odd numbers very well. I don’t know. There might be something there. Little neuro divergence.

John: Okay. Even number. 4 specifically. I like it. That works. That’s a fun number. How about when it comes to books? Audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Bianca: Ooh, e-Book. I’m a digital girl. I’m a digital first mindset.

John: Okay. You’re taking it all the way through. All the way through. I like it. How about a favorite actor or a favorite actress?

Bianca: Oh, I really like Charlize Theron.

John: Oh yeah!

Bianca: Yeah.

John: Yeah. She’s in a lot of good stuff too. Yeah. Really good actress.

Bianca: She just has such a range of characters she can play. It’s pretty amazing.

John: Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. Two more. Heels or flats?

Bianca: Well, this might be a good segue into what I wanted to talk about because I used to love heels, but I can’t wear them anymore because I have bad knees.

John: Oh, okay. Which we’ll get to in the contact sports part of Bianca’s life. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Bianca: Oh, probably my cat or even my air fryer. I’m like slow down.

John: Oh, man.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: Air fryer. Solid. What kind of air fryer do you have?

Bianca: A really big one. Like the biggest one I could buy.

John: Okay. There you go. I actually pulled out my stove and put it in air— No, I’m just kidding.

Bianca: You know, my biggest thing though that I appreciate the most every day is the fact that I have 6 king size pillows on my bed.

John: 6?

Bianca: I was like “Oh, my God, I don’t know how people sleep flat.” Flat is like not my thing.

John: That is impressive. Yeah.

Bianca: It’s like clouds.

John: That is very impressive.

Bianca: It’s like clouds.

John: Yeah. I’ll take all of those answers as favorite things. And they’re all different. Your cat, air fryer, king size pillows. Amen. All of those things. I’m a big fan. So let’s talk the contact sports and I guess maybe if they’re not looking at you peopling and just being up on everybody. If you’re not looking, you’re gonna get whacked.

Bianca: Yeah. Bianca, the boxing bookkeeper, that was what people used to call me.

John: That’s so great. Like how cool is that? I mean, how many bookkeepers have that much of an identity to where people— and the alliteration of it all? The BBB, I love it.

Bianca: Yeah. My nickname is Bee. Busy Bee to Be.

John: Right. So you’re just all over. I’m glad I didn’t ask you favorite letter ’cause it was clear it’s B, but like how did you get into, you know, I guess boxing maybe to begin with, but then contact sports all around?

Bianca: Well, it actually started with martial arts when I was much younger. I think my mom and dad were just like “This girl has too much energy for us. She needs to go somewhere else for a few hours a day.”

John: Yes.

Bianca: That was one of those. Let’s just put it that way. So I did. I went into martial arts. And I did martial arts on and off my whole life, but really got into it seriously when I was an early teen. I can’t even remember. Maybe 13. And I got really well. And I actually got up to my brown belt. Through the years, I’d done various styles. Shotokan, Aikido, Muay Thai, Pankration. I also wrestled provincially through high school. I was one of the only girls on the wrestling team. And because of the grappling martial arts experience, I had excelled really well and sort of dominated grade 12 when I was competing. And it was so fun. And yeah.

So then, in my after high school teenage years, 18-19, I got into doing Muay Thai, and I loved it. It was like the most invigorating sport ever. Not only was I my most fittest. Like it’s very, very physically demanding, but like you push yourself mentally and physically to your limit every day. And that’s kind of how I roll. I need to be like—

John: All in.

Bianca: I sleep well at night.

John: Like totally metal.

Bianca: I don’t have a problem sleeping.

John: Right? We just run red all the time. Just like max it out. AND is that sort of like MMA?

Bianca: Yeah. So that’s like the precursor to MMA. It was like the Muay Thai, Pankration, all that stuff and yeah.

And then, you know, I was a powerhouse kicker. Like that was my thing. I was like “Look what I can do.” And I’d kick everything and I’d kick over all my friends’ heads at barbecues and bars. That was me. It was terrible. Bad idea.

John: Yeah. ‘Cause you can jump and kick. And they’re “What?!”

Bianca: It was a bad idea though because I ended up with a really bad knees. And you know, my doctor’s like “Oh, it’s arthritis. It’s arthritis. Just push through it. You’ll be fine.” But I couldn’t. It got so painful that I ended up in my 20s having to be like “No, I can’t do this anymore.” So that was kind of lame. But that’s sort of also when like life just got real for me. I was like I don’t have time for all this fun stuff. I need to get career driven. I need to get all these things, and then marriage, and then kids, and all of those— Life caught up.

John: Yeah.

Bianca: And then when I was 40, I’m like I really missed that. I missed that.

John: Interesting.

Bianca: So how can I do martial arts without kicking? ‘Cause I thought kicking my knees. I was like boxing. Boxing is totally the segue to me getting back in shape and back into my competitive spirit and nature. But yeah, it actually backfired. So then, I’m boxing. I won a couple fights. And I’m in Vegas in a fight in Vegas at the Hard Rock Hotel.

John: How great is that?

Bianca: It was like super amateur, not professional.

John: But still.

Bianca: But still.

John: Who cares?

Bianca: Full contact.

John: Like that’s great.

Bianca: I’ll send you a picture. But I blew my ACL like 30 seconds into the fight, so that sucked, but it was still an amazing experience. And I ended up having a few years of reconstructive knee surgeries, a couple of them, and had a little bit of trouble healing. But I’m now all healed and my next journey is to sort of get back into martial arts. Not competitively fighting anymore, but just actively for my mental and physical.

John: Yeah. But that’s so interesting. Or even just watching it. I mean I’m sure watching boxing, watching that. Like you can’t do it anymore maybe, but you can watch it or you can do a scaled down version of like what you’re talking about.

Bianca: I just love the intensity of hitting things. That sounds bad. This can easily be taken out of context.

John: No, no, not at all. Not at all. I mean, that’s why I go to the driving range. It’s just like “Wham!” I mean, I just grab my driver. I don’t use it. It’s just like “You know what? It’s been a day, and I just need a bucket, and I’m just gonna hit these things as hard as I can.”

Bianca: Yeah.

John: ‘Cause if I don’t hit the golf balls, it’s gonna be someone else. It’s gonna be like a person.

Bianca: It’s super invigorating. Yeah. I love it.

John: Yeah, totally. But I think it’s really interesting how life gets in the way and then that’s the first thing that we put on the backburner, is our “and.” But then later in life, you’re like “You know what? No, no, no, I need this.”

Bianca: Is that what’s called a midlife crisis?

John: No, not at all. It’s actually like being human because the human part of us is the first thing we put on in the backburner and then your soul starts to speak up with “Hey, remember us? Like we’re human.”

Bianca: We’re gonna do things for you.

John: Yeah. Amen. And so, was there a difference when you were transitioning back into? Like did it play out into work some?

Bianca: Yeah. I mean, I was nicknamed The Jugular for a reason.

John: Okay. Okay.

Bianca: I’m just like it’s straight to the point.

John: Here we go.

Bianca: Like super focused. Eye on the end of the prize. And I put in all the work and I work full speed ahead at everything I do all the time. And it’s like I literally attribute that exact skill from my martial arts to work. Like it’s still how I function. And it’s like there’s always a result. There’s a process. And I push myself like every day to my limit. I don’t know how good that is, but that’s how I function.

John: But that’s in your DNA. That’s who you are. And you’re exercising that muscle outside of work. So then, when you need to use it at work, then you’re like “Well I got this, that’s no problem.” You know, somebody like me doesn’t have that, so yeah.

Bianca: The amount of focus that it takes to stay on task, especially like in a fight or in a martial arts scenario, and even the meditation components that come with martial arts really, really, really helps in my professional life as well for sure.

John: That’s awesome. And no one at any point in your education, or training, or anything tells you, you know, go do martial arts ’cause it will make you a better professional.

Bianca: No.

John: But it clearly does.

Bianca: Yeah. Absolutely.

John: It clearly does.

Bianca: And it allows me to conquer so many fears because, like you say, it’s a contact sport. It’s one on one. If I don’t step up to my best face every day or my best ability, then guess what’s gonna happen? Bianca’s gonna get a black eye.

John: Yeah, it’s your jugular that time. No, somebody’s gonna get a black eye like “Oh, man.” That’s brutal.

Bianca: It doesn’t mean that I’m so much harder on myself though when like things don’t go as planned. And I’m working on that. That’s the shadow work that I’m doing in my 40s for sure.

John: There you go. Okay. Okay. Fair enough. But it is something that you talk about. I mean, people knew you as Bianca, the boxing bookkeeper. I mean, now that you’re with Wagepoint as a community manager, like it’s slightly different roles or job, technical skills, obviously totally different, but the “and” is still there with you. So it is something that you do share—

Bianca: Yeah.

John: …at work.

Bianca: It is. Absolutely. People love hearing the stories. And I think the “and” is the energy. I bring the same level of energy to everything that I do. And the intention behind what I’m doing and what I’m accomplishing, I bring that to everything that I do. And the people that are around me, whether it’s family, friends, or community, or industry, they all feel, and see, and understand that about me because it comes across very authentically or at least that is me. So I don’t try to suppress that part of me at all. And anyone you talk to in the industry is gonna be like “Yup, that’s Bianca.”

John: Well, good, because I mean, #1, they remember you. So you don’t just fall into the mix of everyone else. But two, if they didn’t know your “and”, then you would just be like super aggressive lady, but it’s like “Oh, no, no. She’s a boxer. She’s like kickboxing. No, no, that’s just who she is. That’s what she does.” Like if I didn’t know that part of you, I would have been like “Woah, she’s like super intense.” Then you find that side out of her.

Bianca: People often ask and they’re like “Do you have a whole bunch of brothers?” And I’m like “Actually, I do have two brothers, but I’m probably the most masculine one of them.” I didn’t have to stick up for myself. Like they literally had to protect themselves.

John: Right? That’s the thing. And if they say otherwise, I will give them the black eye. Here it is.

Bianca: You know, the apple didn’t fall far from the tree.

John: Yeah. I love how like there wasn’t a part of you that was like “Oh, people are gonna judge me for this.” Like it’s take it or leave it type of thing. A lot of times, we have these lies that we tell ourselves ’cause our brain is way not our friend.

Bianca: Yeah. Judgment is a very real thing, and I probably should care a little bit more. But but you know, my theory is if someone can find energy or their own voice in anything that I’m saying or doing ’cause everything like I say or do is full speed ahead, if I can affect one person’s life, then that’s all that matters because it really does help. You know, my person was my mom. And a lot of people in the bookkeeping and accounting industry know Diane Mueller. She’s a spear-header just like me. And she paved a really big trail for the accounting community and bookkeeping community in Canada. And I didn’t fall far from that tree like I said. Yeah.

John: No, that’s fantastic. I mean, it’s really great. And so, how much do you feel like it matters for an organization? You know, obviously, when you’re maybe a bookkeeper or you have a smaller company, of course you know each other on accident. But when you’re part of Wagepoint or other organizations, how much is it on the organization to create that space for you to have an “and” and share it versus how much is it on the individual to just kind of create that little circle in their peers?

Bianca: You know, it’s interesting you say that because as an extroverted bookkeeper, I’ve had software companies sort of interested in my energy for a while. And when the opportunity with Wagepoint came up, it was a no brainer because of the culture that Shrad has built within the company.

John: Nice.

Bianca: They promote everybody’s side hustles. There’s channels in there for everybody’s “ands.” It’s absolutely amazing. I wish there was more boxers, okay, ’cause Wagepoint is 100% cloud-based and always has been. So everybody works remotely. And the culture that Shrad’s built within Wagepoint and the different ways that we can all communicate and share our “ands” with each other and find our community of like-minded people within where we work is so amazing.

John: That’s so cool to hear like that they’ve cared about the human side from the beginning.

Bianca: It’s always been about the human side, and emotional intelligence plays a huge factor in that and how Shrad actually hires. So it’s pretty cool.

John: Oh, really? That’s interesting. Yeah. ‘Cause, I mean, you can’t teach that side of things as well as the technical skills are pretty easy to teach. That’s awesome. That’s so encouraging to hear, you know, that there are organizations out there that are like that ’cause it’s gotta feel good to be a part of a company that cares about the other dimensions to who Bianca is. Not just the work Bianca.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: You know, everything.

Bianca: And all the time, the conversations boil down to us as individuals, not what we bring to the table all the time. All the conversations with Shred. We just got back from a big work retreat. One of our customers, our wagepoint customers, has a summer camp, The Hollows in Ontario. So we booked it out and like 70 or 80 staff all went there. And we slept in the little bunk beds like we’re camp kids.

John: That’s so cool.

Bianca: We did adult summer camp, and it was so amazing. Like no shop talk. It was like there was a DJ and a mentalist, an illusionist.

We had entertainment. It was so much fun. And it was getting to know everybody’s aunt and it was encouraged. It was amazing.

John: That’s so great and such a simple thing and just brings people together. And especially, when you’re fully remote like that, you have to be super, super intentional with caring about people, but then getting in person matters even if it’s once a year or twice a year, or even if it’s in small groups. There’s so many like “I didn’t know you were this height, you know. Like on Zoom, it’s like all I see is this head.”

Bianca: We actually sat down. We’re like ” Who were our biggest surprises?” We’re like “I didn’t think that person was gonna be that tall” or like “I didn’t think that person was gonna be that cool.” Like we have this awesome guy in finance and everyone thought he was gonna be a bit stiff, but he was like the funnest person there.

John: Right? Right? Which is great. It’s like bring the summer camp you to work every day.

Bianca: Yes

John: Like this is great.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: So fantastic. I love it so much. Do you have any words of encouragement to people that feel like “Hey, I like to do martial arts or box” or whatever their and is, “but it has nothing to do with my job, so no one really cares, no one’s gonna care”? Like do you have words of encouragement to anyone listening?

Bianca: Well, yeah. And I think we actually just touched base on this and it’s like just do you. Stop fearing judgment. The judgment that people like fear how they’re gonna be received or if they’re gonna be misunderstood or misinterpreted is often the bottleneck that like stops people from authentically showing up as themself. And I show up authentically every day, even if it’s a bad day or a good day. Like you’re gonna know. And I think that that is hopefully spilled out a little bit into like even the people that I deal with every day.

And I know that my management, my team, we all show up authentically every day. And everyone that hires sort of feels that vibe, and it’s like the next person that comes on board sort of starts to slowly adapt to that same way. And it’s literally breeding this internal culture of amazingness, and you just need that one person to like understand and see you for who you are and make you feel welcome. And then it’s like sky’s the limit.

John: Yeah. It’s one of those things that’s so simple, but not easy, I guess, for most people for some reason. But yeah, it’s just care. Like have a genuine interest, you know. And, well, we don’t have a charge code for getting to know each other or whatever. We don’t get paid to socialize.

Bianca: Well, employers need to provide more safe spaces for that. In a real life work environment, office environment, people often go to the water cooler and just like, you know, they hang out there for a few extra minutes and see who stops by to have a little chit chat. So it looks like they’re still working, but you know, but they need a break, a mental break. Well, we have a slack channel called the water cooler. I mean, that’s a perfect example, and anybody can put anything there any time. Well, obviously, within like HR.

John: Right. HR doesn’t get flagged.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: We have a separate one for Bianca. Bianca has her own channel.

Bianca: Might be on the roadmap. We have a gardening channel, a wellness channel. You know, so many amazing things. A plant-based food and nutrition channel. And anyone can go in them at any time. There’s zero judgments on if one day you spend a little bit too much time in that channel chatting to people and the next thing—

John: Yeah.

Bianca: There’s no like micromanaging of time and I think that’s like super, super important as well.

John: Yeah, no, totally. It just takes the reins off of you that you can feel like, well, no, I can just be me.

Bianca: If you’re you, you’re gonna show up more creatively too.

John: Yeah. Amen. That’s so much better. So much more engaged. So much more everything. Well, this has been so much fun, Bianca. But before I get a black eye from saying something, I feel like it’s only fair that I turn the tables, make this the first episode of the Bianca Mueller Podcast.

Bianca: All right.

John: So thanks for having me on.

Bianca: All right. So you’re a speaker, you’re out there, you’re always like so engaging with public, but are you introverted or extroverted ’cause I can’t figure it out?

John: Oh, yeah. No, that’s a good question ’cause you are definitely the extrovert and I am very introverted. Very introverted. I think that’s surprising to probably everyone listening, but yeah, when I go somewhere, I’ll speak, I’ll talk to people after, but then, yeah, I don’t ever turn the TV on in my hotel room. I don’t even know if it has a TV half the time because I just need quiet. Just quiet to recharge and just all the stuff in my brain needs to be de-fragmented, I guess, like in the computer speak.

Bianca: Yeah, yeah.

John: Yeah. And just recharge that way.

Bianca: So you show up with your full energy whereas I leave talks filled with even more. It is the opposite. I think that’s how they define introverted and extroverted.

John: Right. And I leave drained because I’m giving so much of myself to each individual person in the room and I’m the opposite.

I’m giving so much that I’m just like just exhausted and drained at the end. Or even you’ll see me at any gathering, I’ll be in the corner with maybe one or two other people and then I will only talk to those two people the entire time. Like I will not talk to anyone new and especially if it’s a conference where I haven’t spoken yet, so then you don’t know what I do and then it becomes now I gotta tell you what I do and it’s let’s just talk about you and whatever your job is.

Bianca: I like it. This is all making sense now. What’s Your “And”? You wanna know about other people. You’re deflecting. I get it.

John: Yeah. What’s your “and?” Like let’s talk about that.

Bianca: No, I want to know about you. So I see. The audience can’t see, but I can see there’s some football memorabilia behind you on your shelf. What’s that about?

John: Notre Dame football helmet. Yeah, I graduated from Notre Dame and huge college football fan. That’s definitely one of my “ands”.

Bianca: Cool.

John: And then a football signed by Coach Holtz who wrote the foreword for my book, the Hall of Fame college football coach here in the US for Notre Dame. And yeah, so excited about that. But actually, the helmet is signed by the last coach. And so, it’s just mementos of things that bring me joy, and I think that’s important to have things that bring you joy around you so then you see them.

Bianca: Kinda like my pillows.

John: Yeah. Like king size pillows. You know what? Next time we talk, I might have 6 king size pillows stacked on my bookshelves back here. And you’ll be like “What? No, wait, what kind of pillows are those? What brand? What’s the stuffing made of?”

Bianca: The things that bring us comfort.

John: Exactly. Yeah. But I mean, at the very least, it makes me smile. Sit down. I’ve got a story for you.

Bianca: Do you put it on at parties?

John: I’ve put it on during Zoom calls, that’s for sure, before. Somebody’s like “Why don’t you just put on the—” “Okay, I’ll go put it on. I don’t care.”

Bianca: That’s awesome.

John: It’s fun.

Bianca: Very cool. Some fun facts about you.

John: Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you so much, Bianca, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? and just being awesome. So thank you for taking time to be a part of this.

Bianca: Thank you very much.

John: And everybody, if you wanna see some pictures of Bianca in action or connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. And like I said earlier, don’t forget, she’ll be at CPB Ignite as well as Wage Fest coming up very soon. And while you’re on that whatsyourand.com page, be sure and click the button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture and don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.