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Welcome to Episode 292 of What’s Your “And”? Follow-Up Friday Edition. This is John Garrett. Each Friday, I follow up with a guest who had been on the show a few years ago to hear what’s new with their passions outside of work and also hear how this message might have impacted them since we last talked.

I’m so excited to let everyone know that my book is being published in September, yes, this September, and will be available on Amazon, Indigo and a few other websites. Check out whatsyourand.com for all the details or sign up for my exclusive list. You’ll be the first to know when it comes out.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week and this Follow-Up Friday is no different with my guest, Chris Ekimoff. He’s a director with RSM and the Southeast Region Leader for Financial Investigations and Dispute Services and on the side, he’s the co-host of inSECURITIES podcast with the Practicing Law Institute, and now he’s with me here today. Chris, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Chris: Glad to be here, John. So great to chat with you again.

John: Of course, man. You’re a busy, busy dude. That’s why I appreciate squeezing into the schedule. You know the drill, rapid fire questions. These are ones I probably should have asked you a couple of years ago on Episode 83. My God, bless you, man. That was long ago.

Chris: Yeah, we’re dating ourselves. Everybody knows that we’re the old guys on the podcast right now.

John: Exactly. It’s one of those things. I’ve been doing this for X — that means you’re old.

Chris: That’s right.

John: That’s what that means. I am ancient. All right, here we go. First one, Harry Potter or Game of Thrones.

Chris: Game of Thrones definitely.

John: Okay, okay. How about a favorite cereal even when you were a kid?

Chris: Captain Crunch will be well-known, but we had this baseball slam bootleg cereal that everything was shaped like baseball bats and baseballs. I don’t know if that was something that you got from the corner store or — I’d have to do some research, and if that was a real cereal, but made me fall in love with baseball as a kid too.

John: Yeah. That’s incredible, man. How about brownie or ice cream? Ice cream, okay. How about a favorite Disney character?

Chris: Aladdin has always been my number one, the music, the atmosphere. I’m also a big fan of vests, so I think that’s a good — it’s the reason I lean towards Aladdin.

John: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. Okay, cats or dogs.

Chris: 100% dog.

John: There you go. Yeah, me too, me too. Two more. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Chris: I usually go for a Hoppy IPA, but from a cocktail perspective, I usually lean more on an old-fashion, something bourbon-based.

John: Oh, okay.

Chris: I like to mix it up. I used to love to go to bars. Now we’re in this quarantine area where it’s just — whatever is in the fridge maybe is the best answer for you, John, in terms of adult beverage now.

John: The last one, toilet paper roll, over or under.

Chris: Over. That’s a deal-breaker.

John: That is a deal-breaker.

Chris: You got it. No, that’s great.

John: I had somebody on once say, “If it wasn’t over then this conversation is over.”

Chris: I agree with that person, 100%.

John: That’s awesome. So, yeah, Episode 83, we talked swimming back from your college days.

Chris: That’s right.

John: I love that example of when you started at a huge Big Four firm and the Olympics was just happening where everyone was breaking all the records. All of a sudden, everyone knew you were the swimming guy, so they were talking to you about that. I thought that was really cool.

Chris: Yeah. That suit technology part of the interesting window in the swimming history world is there were two or three years where times are dropping like crazy because people were wearing basically wet suits that helped them float. I was the only guy in the office who had at least a little bit of understanding of why that was happening.

When it’s being covered on Good Morning America, in the Nightly News, everyone wants to talk about it at the water cooler the next day, so I was more popular than I should have been but thankfully for a good reason, to stand out with some of my peers as well, so it was excellent.

John: No, no, l think it’s cool. So is swimming still a passion of yours or has it transitioned to something else?

Chris: Yes. Again, quarantine limiting, pools aren’t really open to go do some laps. I’ve actually moved away from competitive swimming as an adult and jumped into the running bug. I’ve done a handful of marathons in the past ten or 12 years.

John: Oh, wow.

Chris: I always try to stay current. I’ve got a couple of friends who do Masters swimming, so I’m checking in on their times to maybe let them know they’re not as fast as they used to be. A bunch of my college friends and I got together last weekend at a lake up in Kennedy and we swam the lake together, much slower than we did back in college but always laughing and looking back at those elements too. So, not spending as much time in the pool anymore but still definitely a passion of mine.

John: It’s still part of your life.

Chris: Yeah, definitely.

John: And what have you. I think that’s fantastic, and marathons, those are not easy.

Chris: That’s what I tell people, especially with the swimming discussion, is I used to spend two hours at practice, staring at the black line at the bottom of the pool. Now I get to run for an hour and see all these things and breathe whenever I want to and maybe slow down and walk instead of having to do a flip turn and turn around. It transitioned well, but definitely different medium.

John: That is funny. Yeah, I never even thought about that. Yeah, I guess you’re not really looking at anything.

Chris: I tell people, you play soccer. You play football. You don’t play swimming. It’s not a game. It’s not fun. Just back and forth, over and over again.

John: You’re exactly right. You don’t play.

Chris: You don’t play running. You run. You just swim. All that happens.

John: Yeah. I also don’t run because there’s no play involved. There’s no joy in this. That’s awesome, man. Why do you hate yourself so much? What’s going on? Just teasing, man.

Chris: It balances out the adult beverages on the other side. If I go for a good run, then that old-fashioned is a little bit sweeter at the end of the day.

John: That’s very true. That’s very true. The podcast, which is great by the way, how did you get into that?

Chris: It’s one of those weird stories. My co-host, Kurt Wolfe is an attorney at the law firm, Troutman Sanders, and I had actually met each other by tweeting at a Securities Enforcement Conference using the conference hash tag, four or five years ago.

At the networking event after the conference, I was talking to some of my colleagues. They were like, “Hey, Chris, saw you on Twitter. Ha-ha, you loser.” Kurt was on the other end of the table, and he’s like, “Hey, yeah, we were tweeting each other back and forth.” The partner that Kurt worked for and the partner that I worked for looked at each other, oh, maybe that was a valuable use of their attention and time today. It’s always about collecting business cards.

So, Kurt and I have had, for the past couple of years, this relationship where we’re discussing securities, law and regulatory enforcement issues over Twitter, sharing articles with each other and giving each other a good ribbing and speaking with the Practicing Law Institute which is a global provider of continuing legal education services, who had asked if we’d be interested in doing that as a podcast. Instead of just bantering on Twitter, why not get you two guys in front of a microphone and talk through some of the issues you’re already sharing in the social media world.

I’m amazed and, John, I know you’ll feel the same way, we had that initial conversation in the fall of 2018 and then our first episode didn’t launch until January of this year. The amount of practice and planning and effort that goes into it was a huge lift, and it’s really become not only a hobby, but a complement to some of the professional stuff that Kurt and I do as well. It’s been a heck of a lot of work but a heck of a good time too, when you get to speak with interesting folks on topics that touch all of our lives from a professional perspective.

John: It’s a lot of work to do a podcast well. It’s the same as writing a book. You could just slap some words together and hit print on Amazon, CreateSpace or whatever and there you go, you’ve got a book, put your picture on the cover, but there are typos. It’s not good. It’s not well thought out. Same with a podcast. So, kudos to you. At some point you do have to just jump. Hey, it’s go time. Here we go.

Chris: I listen to a lot of podcast out there too, and hearing some of the well-known and storied folks like yourself. Going back and listening to the first five or six episodes that I ever did and just cringing at how little we all knew of what we were doing and how it went. I’m hopeful someday that I’ll look back and say, yeah, we were at stage one, and now we’re at stage two or three, and it’s going much better.

John: Yeah, because it is hard. It’s the same with any creative outlet. You never see Steven Spielberg’s student film. You only see the masterpieces and the Picassos and the whatevers. It’s hard to just get out there and do it.

Chris: Or hacking the system too. Kurt and I are — there’s a full production team at PLI that is supporting us. We’re sourcing the content. We’re talking about these issues. We’re following the news. We’re getting the gas, but we’re just hitting record, talking for 90 minutes and then signing it over. Our guys are editing and reviewing that from a content perspective, as well as a sound quality and improvement perspective. So I’m thankful to the guys at PLI every day for taking the conversations that we have that are kind of muffled and getting them into a little bit brighter and more interesting medium there.

John: Yeah, yeah. So cool. It’s so cool. Just to hear, it’s swimming, you’re running marathons, it’s doing the podcasts, so many different dimensions to you which is awesome. When you think about it, you’re not just the forensics accounting.

Chris: Yeah, and, John, that’s something that I’ve always loved about the work that you do, is I always laugh when I first went to college and I said, “I want to get into accounting.” My parents we’re like, “What? Chris, we can’t keep you sitting still. How are you going to count beans all day?”

John: That’s right.

Chris: Think, over however many, 200-plus episodes that you’ve done, every single one of those episodes shows that it’s not just making sure the Excel spreadsheet is formatted right. We’ve all got these sides to us that make for a very interesting profession and takes away from the suspenders and the green visor and moves us to a more dynamic spot. It’s a testament to you, John, all the work that you’ve done, as well as any folks who gravitate to this type of work, both from the technical side as well as from the personality side.

John: I really appreciate that, man. That means a lot. I mean they’re out there. It’s not like I created this. All I did was give permission and let’s kick the door in. Because in my research, 92% of us has a hobby or passion outside of work that we do regularly. That’s not even close to 50 — how is the stereotype, this narrative, sits in the corner all the time and does work and goes home to do more work. That’s not who we are. It’s not even close. Yet we’re all acting that way. It was just enough is enough type of a thing.

Chris: Kicking in the doors is a good way to say it. Really changing that paradigm is great.

John: A little bit. Do you feel like people are sharing hobbies and passions more now? Maybe social media is helping with that?

Chris: When I first interact with either a staff person new to the team or we’re doing recruiting or interact with an attorney team that we’re doing work with and getting past that professional phase, first question is like, what do you do when you’re not here? How do I build a mental heuristic about John or about Steve or about Stacey, based on what they do?

It’s, I’m a runner, or I’m a piano player, or I do a pop-up restaurant. I like to cook and help support my sister’s catering business. All of those things is just, they layer into a better conversation you can have with the people you’re talking with. Yeah, listen, we’ll get to the billable hours. We’ll do the legal research. We’ll do the damages model. It sounds bad. I care less about that than hearing more about what you’re making tonight for dinner because that’s —

John: Right.

Chris: — that’s interesting to me. Maybe it’s because we’re taping this around lunchtime, but that’s where my focus is right now.

John: No, you’re exactly right. There are follow-up questions to that side. There are really not many follow-up questions to the what do you do for a day job? Oh, okay, got it, whatever.

Chris: I went to an American Bar Association Conference in Atlanta last year for white collar litigators. Hey, I’m Chris. I’m with RSM. I do forensics accounting and work on legal cases and testify and all that. What type of law do you practice? They say, “White collar.” I’m like, guys, we’ve moved beyond the general. Talk to me about the caseload you have. Talk to me about who you’re interacting with. Is it financial services? Is it — all those kinds of things. After two or three conversations, it was like, yeah, we should stop saying white collar. I was like, yes, let’s get to that next level of detail. Same side of that, on the personal side is let’s move past the regular assumptions and talk to me about what really matters to you.

John: Absolutely. That’s what I love about what you’re doing and that mentality. That’s fantastic. Hopefully, one day, you could just go to a conference and say to people, “What’s your ‘And’”? Then they’ll just say swimming or running or food trucks or whatever. Awesome. Because that’s where we can now have a conversation. The other ones are dead ends after dead ends after dead ends.

Is there something that you do to set an example? Now you’re at a director level, it’s the flip of that story when you started at Big Four. You’re the guy that sees people, and it’s cool that they know you as Chris and not the director. Is there something that you do that maybe people listening can put in their back pocket?

Chris: Yeah. I think now is a great time to stop being the utilization czar or the chargeable time reviewer and start to be a little bit more human, obviously for everything going on in the world. I laugh — I work closely with five or six people on the East Coast with our practice and got a message from one of my colleague, saying, “Hey, just so you know, I want to take a couple of hours on Monday afternoon because it’s the first time the hair salon I go to has been opened in three months, and the next appointment they have is in August.” I said, “Honestly, I’m a little bit upset that you would ask because I completely understand.” Just, if you get your work done on time and you’re not missing anything substantial, walking up the street to get your hair done isn’t an issue for somebody who has been locked in their apartment in New York City for three months.

It’s those kinds of extensions where, when I interact with people on my team or with people on the client service side, external RSM, it’s, how is your weekend? It’s not really just, hey, how was your weekend? This is the first phrase I’m going to say to you before I then talk about work. It’s, “Yeah, I remember you said your dog was at the vet last week. How is your dog doing?” Or you went up to visit your grandmother in New Hampshire. What’s the weather like up there? Just building out a more full picture of who you’re dealing with and doing it from a sincere level. I don’t have an agenda to understand what the weather is in New Hampshire. It’s just I get a better understanding of the person I’m talking to and being able to connect those dots.

It’s about opening up and, like I said, now more than ever, I think it’s important to understand the situations people are dealing with, outside of, if the analysis is QC’d appropriately or if the report is properly formatted. It’s more of, how are you doing? What’s going on outside of your office or outside of the home office, I guess, now for a lot of us. To know what’s really coloring people’s day and how they’re feeling and being conscious of that is a good way to check in with the people you work with, to take a pause, take a breath. We’re all trying to get through this together, specifically, but also just to be a good co-worker, colleague and human is really to look at those other points for those folks as well.

John: Yeah. I love that. It’s asking specific questions that show that you paid attention to the last conversation, and you remembered, and you care about them genuinely.

Chris: Yes.

John: That’s such a great takeaway, Chris. That’s so awesome.

Chris: It’s how you build friendships. It’s not just colleagues. Maybe I never get hired by that firm again or that case goes away. I’ll always remember that Brian is the guy who loves National Bohemian Beer from Baltimore because that’s where his wife’s family is from. The next time I have one, I send him a text with a photo of it. We all laugh about it and have a good memory and a good chuckle with it.

John: Or he just really loves the letter B.

Chris: That’s right. Brian in Baltimore with Natty Boh, that’s right.

John: Right? That’s a lot. Yeah. This has been great, Chris. Before I wrap it up, sometimes people like to rapid fire question me. So I can hand the podcast over to you. You’re now the host if you want to fire away. You’re used to being in the host chair, give it back at the end but, yeah, anything you’ve got for me?

Chris: All right, I’m going to hit you with three of them.

John: Okay.

Chris: East Coast or West Coast.

John: Oh, East Coast.

Chris: 100%. You’re a high energy type guy. I don’t see you surfing out.

John: I mean I will go surfing, but just cut to the chase. Tell me you like me or you don’t. Just I don’t need to guess. When I was doing comedy, we’ll get back to you tomorrow. Three months later, you’re still following up. It’s like, get out of here.

Chris: That’s good. All right, number two, a piece of advice you got early in your career that you think has helped develop who you are today.

John: Oh, okay. I started at PwC and they had a phrase. It was — and I made fun of it, to be honest, because it rhymed, but I remember it so I guess it worked. If it’s meant to be, it’s up to me. I thought that that was a good phrase because you can’t rely on outside forces to determine what you actually want to go get. Go get it. Go do it. It’s also, no one else can do it for you.

I wrote my book. Sure, I had several editors and people that helped me and coached me along the way, but I wrote every word. You can’t just tell someone, “Go write a book for me,” and then write. You have to go do the work. I think that applies to all professions. You have to do it. You can’t just sit there and complain. Why don’t you just turn that energy around and put it towards what you actually want to have happen as the outcome.

Chris: I’m with you, and definitely good tenet. I hadn’t rhymed it before but I’m going to take that with me. Finally, John, if you weren’t doing what you’re doing now and money and all that was not an issue, what would you be doing all day?

John: I would be on a Tesla rocket to the outer space. I don’t know. I always wanted to do that when I was a kid.

Chris: That’s awesome, kind of space game writ large for you. That’s awesome.

John: I don’t know. Maybe it was the space ice cream I got at the Air and Space Museum in DC but I just always love that stuff.

Chris: That’s awesome. I don’t know. I just thought of that.

John: It will be cool. I don’t know if I want to do all the training that’s involved.

Chris: I hear it’s not just like in an Uber. You don’t take Uber to the moon. It’s a little bit more involved with that.

John: I’m probably going to throw up, but I made it. That’s great, Chris. Well thank so much you for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”? This was fun.

Chris: Always a pleasure, sir.

John: Awesome. Everyone, if you want to see some pictures of Chris in action or get a link to his podcast or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there, and while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 291 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. Each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And” those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiates you when you’re at work.

I’m so excited to let everyone know that my book’s being published very soon. It’ll be available on Amazon and a few other websites. Check out whatsyourand.com for all the details. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s listening to the show and changing the cultures where they work because of it, and I know that this book will really help to spread this message.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my friend and guest, Phil Gerbyshak. He’s the Vice President of Sales Training at Vector Solutions, and now he’s with me here today. Phil, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Phil: Oh, it’s my pleasure, John. It’s great to see you again, buddy. It’s been a while.

John: It has been a little while. You know how it is, 17 rapid fire questions. These are things that I’ve never asked you actually and I probably should have before we started hanging out. Here we go. Favorite color.

Phil: Orange.

John: Orange. I knew that one. Least favorite color. Black. Interesting, okay.

Phil: Because it’s the absence of color.

John: All right. How about chocolate or vanilla?

Phil: Chocolate. Unless it’s ice cream then I like vanilla.

John: Interesting. All right, all right. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Phil: Tom Hanks.

John: Solid answer, solid. More of an early bird or a night owl?

Phil: Oh, I’m actually more of an early bird. You should go to bed before 10 so, yeah, early.

John: Oh, okay. Yeah, that’s for sure. How about pens or pencils?

Phil: Pens, absolutely. Fountain pens specifically.

John: Oh, nice. Fancy. Okay, all right. Puzzles, more Sudoku or crossword?

Phil: Crossword. I like words.

John: Yeah. How about a favorite movie of all time?

Phil: Real Genius with Val Kilmer.

John: Oh, wow, blast from the past.

Phil: Yeah. I went to Cal Poly. My cousin actually did. That’s why I love that.

John: That’s fantastic. That’s truly fantastic. How about cats or dogs?

Phil: Dogs.

John: Dogs, yeah. Do you have a favorite number?

Phil: 42 because it’s the answer to the universe in the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, 42.

John: Oh, right.

Phil: 42 is an asterisk and an asterisk is a wild card which means everything is the answer.

John: There you go. How about a least favorite vegetable?

Phil: Least favorite vegetable, probably a pickled beet.

John: Oh, okay. That doesn’t sound great. Cold or warm, it doesn’t matter. Star Wars or Star Trek.

Phil: Well, I prefer the early Star Wars and the late Star Trek, so I have to say both.

John: Okay, okay, both. There you go. You’re a hybrid.

Phil: Yeah. Well Chris Pine is a way better Kirk than Shatner, I think, but I like Mark Hamill more than I like Kylo Ren.

John: I hear you on that. How about a favorite Disney character?

Phil: Favorite — oh, of course. It is Maui from Moana.

John: Okay.

Phil: It’s The Rock’s character, right? You’re welcome.

John: Right, right.

Phil: Lin-Manuel Miranda from Hamilton fame.

John: You’re exactly right. That is it. How about, oh, your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Phil: I’m ambidextrous on that too. I’ve got four PCs and three Macs, so, yeah.

John: Holy cow, man. You have all the computers.

Phil: Yeah. Well I was the VP of IT before I started being a sales trainer, so I had to understand them all. Frankly, for work, because I’m more creative, I have my Mac; but for home, I’ve got my Dell.

John: There you go. So, on your Dell, on your mouse, right click or left click?

Phil: Oh, yes, both.

John: Both.

Phil: Right now, I’ve got a regular PC mouse. I will right click all the time. That’s why I transitioned to Mac eventually is because I use the Windows mouse to right click, copy and paste.

John: So, both. You do cheat. We’ve got two more, two more. I’ve got, oceans or mountains. That’s an easy one.

Phil: Oh, oceans, man. That’s why I live in Florida. Madeira Beach is my jam.

John: Yeah, totally. Last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Phil: Favorite thing I have. Honestly, I would have to say it’s my health, very grateful for having health. Because in this day and age, man, it is not taken for granted and I’m grateful for it every day.

John: It’s hard to argue that one. That’s for sure. When you’re healthy, you can play pinball.

Phil: That’s right.

John: That’s right. So, how did you get started with pinball? Was this from when you were a kid or something that you got into later?

Phil: Yeah. Well, definitely when I was a kid, my mom worked at a place, it was called the Middle Inlet Inn, and my mom was a bartender. She’d bring me along. We didn’t have a babysitter, so mom would bring me along. Sometimes she would have to go attend bar for other customers, so I would get to play a ball or two. I learned to play then. Then as I grew up, pinballs conversation because it’s something in common. My mom, my brothers, we would absolutely play pinball. It was fun. We could play four-player because I have mom and two brothers, so there are four of us. We could play four-player all the time. It was fun.

John: That’s awesome. That’s very cool, man. Yeah, then it’s almost like reliving your childhood every time that you play.

Phil: For sure. Yeah, it’s a great memory. My mom is staying with me right now. We haven’t gone for pinball this time because we’re staying at home, but absolutely we went up to the Replay Arcade Museum up in Tarpon Springs. I’ve played at the Seattle Pinball Museum with my mom and my brother. My brother has four or five games in his house.

John: Very cool. That’s awesome, man. That’s awesome. Do you have like a favorite pinball game?

Phil: Sure. My all-time favorite is either F-14 Tomcat or Millionaire. F-14 Tomcat is a fighter game. It’s got multi-ball. It’s really, really fun. The game is fast. As a Tomcat pilot, ga-ga-ga, shoot that off, right?

John: Right, right.

Phil: Because it’s a game from the ‘80s and ‘90s. And then Millionaire, Millionaire is my favorite because it’s got a spinner. The spinner spins, and it gives you the bonus and some great multi-ball and some great ramps as well. Thankfully my brother has both of those. We grew up, we played F-14 Tomcat in my Uncle Tom’s bar in Crivitz, and we played Millionaire at lunch at the Village Square at lunch and could spend a whole hour just playing pinball with one quarter.

John: That’s incredible. How do you judge a good pinball game, in your mind?

Phil: Well, first of all, it’s got to have multi-ball. I don’t like a lot of the old classic games. I like the newer games. That’s the first thing. Second, it’s got to have a nice backslash. It’s got to be well-lit. The games that are really dark aren’t a lot of fun for me. It’s got to have some action beyond just the game. Something unexpected is really fun. Some have shooters. My new favorite game is Star Wars because Star Wars, you can shoot the Death Star, and it’s got a video element to it. That’s really fun.

Some of the ones that I also really like are music ones. There’s a Kiss game. There’s a Metallica game. There’s an AC/DC game. You get to pick the music that you’re playing when you play the game. It’s really fun because, again, I’m a retro guy. I like the retro stuff. I can listen to Who Made Who or I can listen to Lick It Up, I can listen to Green Hell by Metallic and play pinball too. It’s really fun.

John: Wow. I didn’t even realize that they have that now, with the choose the songs and all that stuff. Because it was mostly, when I was growing up, when there was the multi-ball, that was cool because there are the four fins that are all going or whatever.

Phil: Yeah.

John: What do they call them, paddles? I’m not even sure.

Phil: Flippers.

John: Flippers, there we go.

Phil: If you remember The Who, those crazy flipper fingers, that was what Tommy had, crazy flipper fingers. That’s how you remember because they’re flipping back and forth like flippers on a fish. Although I will say though, one game that doesn’t get enough credit that I think is really fun is Frank Thomas’ Big Hurt baseball.

John: Okay.

Phil: Love that game. You can hit a lot of home runs. What was fun is if you ever got it down the side too fast, it would have the voice go, “Same player shoots again.” It was really fun because it almost mocked you for sucking, but it made you feel good.

John: That’s super funny. It is so amazing, all the different — how they put them together, I guess. Because it’s still the same basic elements, it’s just how you put them together and then the video piece and the music piece that you overlay it with.

Phil: That’s right. How do you the ladders, how do you do the shoots, how do you do the ramps, what triggers the multi-ball, where are the free games, where are the extra balls, what are some of the other goodies you can get, stuff like that. Are there other challenges that you can do to complete the game? Because some games, you’ll never see all the challenges. I’ve got 500, 600, 700 million on a game and still not completed it, and there are some games that get completed way less score than that.

Pinball is really interesting. The common thread, to your point, is the silver ball, that’s the thing, the ramps to shoot them around and then flippers and bumpers. Everything else is optional. Everything else you just figure out, and you lay it out. It’s almost like a golf course. It’s pretty cool.

John: I never really thought about it like that. I didn’t realize that games can finish? Pinball, so what happens at the end?

Phil: Well, not finish like you would at Pac-Man. There’s not an end. By that is you unlock all the goodies, you get all the Easter eggs, you played all the multi-balls, you’ve completed all the missions. Basically it just ends up going on repeat, and you can get more extra games, more extra balls, stuff like that. Once you unlock all the Easter eggs, like Super Mario Brothers, for instance, good example. You can play it forwards, and you will never get to the end of the game. I’ve gotten 256, 356 levels. If you go on reverse, it’s quite different. You get extra guys, and it’s a totally different game.

Pinball is not that way. Pinball does not have a finite end. Mike Tyson’s Punch Out, once you beat Mike Tyson, the game is done. Or if you like Cruis’n, if you like Cruis’n, car games, once you beat the last race, it’s over. Pinball, as long as the balls are still there, you’re still playing; but you’ve unlocked all the Easter eggs, you’ve done all the fun stuff, you might as well end. Because at some point you’re playing against the game, not against the score.

John: Right, right. Is this something that you feel like has given you a skill set that you’ve used in your work life?

Phil: Yeah. Well, the ability to multi-think is certainly important in work. As a sales trainer, I have to think about things in different ways, and a lot of the analogies on pinball is a lot like life. We have to think about, okay, if I hit it here and it does this, then what? If I do this, then what? What am I going to do if I get four balls, if too much comes to me at once? A lot of times the answer is I just want to keep each ball juggling just a little bit until I can come up with a strategy.

So, absolutely, John, I think I’ve definitely used that in work as a sales trainer. I’ve used that in sales. I’ve used that as a leader, and I use that to teach. Because sometimes, as hard as I prepare, as hard as I practice to be a really good trainer, to be a really good speaker; sometimes people ask a question I’ve no preparation for. With that, the fact that I have learned to play pinball absolutely helps that, not to mention, it’s a great connector with people. Because if you love pinball, it’s a great connection, and if you don’t, you’re like, eh, whatever. That’s cool.

John: Yeah. Well I remembered it from the first time we met. I was like, yeah, this guy is all about pinball. He loves pinball. It’s not like, yeah, I played it a couple of times. It’s like, no, no, I own some. I love that analogy of just trying to keep each ball in play until you come up with a strategy. Because if they go through the shoot and they’re down, then now you’ve got nothing. It’s like, all right, just keep that going. That’s excellent, and probably why I wasn’t necessarily always that great at pinball because it’s multi-think. I’m like, no.

Phil: That’s okay. You can be more straight line, or I can be more ambidextrous there. We work together, and it works.

John: Yeah, exactly. I just keep banging the — I’m like the foosball person that just keeps spinning it. It’s like, no. You can’t just flipper it nonstop.

Phil: Well you tilt the pinball game so you really can’t do that. Because the magnets, once the magnets get too outbalanced, the game tilts and it’s over. The whole field freezes. Your ball shoots right down and you don’t get any score.

John: Oh, wow. See? Where were you when I was ten years old?

Phil: I believe I was ten years old as well, sir.

John: Right, in Wisconsin.

Phil: Yeah.

John: Right? So is this something that you talk about at work?

Phil: For sure. Absolutely. Yeah, I talk about it. It’s on my LinkedIn profile. It’s on a lot of my stuff. My Facebook page is Phil Gerbyshak, speaker, author, pinball wizard, so, absolutely. It’s important to me and, again, it connects. If people want to talk about it, I’m happy to talk about it, but it’s not like I use that analogy with everybody. I’m happy to use their analogy. I’ve tried to fit in their story more than forcing them to fit in mine.

John: Oh, that’s interesting. Do you ask people maybe what their pinball is for them?

Phil: Of course. I want to know who are they beyond work. I had a training actually this morning with someone who was like, “Oh, wow. I didn’t know any of that stuff about you.” I said, “Well, this is our first opportunity really to talk one-on-one.” Interestingly enough, we started talking about business, and I train. I trained her. She’s a sales professional. Today was the first time we were one-on-one. So today we got to share more personal stuff, and I always ask that.

On LinkedIn, I think the key to using LinkedIn effectively is to connect with people as humans, not just business people because, frankly, social media in general, man, I don’t need more work. By that, I don’t want to make more money. That’s not what I’m saying. If I think about it, I don’t need more work. I need more people that I want to talk to so that I can serve them better so that I can determine whether or not they’re someone that I can work with or not.

That helps me do that because if I connect with someone on a human level, we can have a conversation that’s very conversational, more social, less media, and now we can have an opportunity to see, is there a fit? Hopefully they’ll lower their deflector shields and we’ll have a conversation about stuff that matters to them, which ends up including work, maybe not the first conversation, but eventually it does. When that’s the case, then the magic happens.

John: Right, right. I guess there’s a lot of people that, just in the back of their head, they think, maybe professionalism tells us this lie of only work, put up this veneer, make it very two-dimensional. This is my job. This is where I went to school. Do you have any words of encouragement to people that might be stuck on that?

Phil: Well, first of all, I would say, think about the people that you actually like to talk to. Are they people that just talk about work, or are they people that have a whole life? It’s whole life. I want to talk about pinball. I want to talk about work. I want to talk about your music. Do you surf? Do you swim? Do you like the mountains? Do you like the beach? I want to talk about that stuff. That’s important. If that’s the case, then why not put it out there so people can actually comment on it? Why not just be yourself? I call it finding out what’s your weird and sharing that because we all have something weird. You call it What’s Your “And”? Same thing.

We’ve got to find what makes us different because, honestly, once we can share what makes us different, then we can see what makes us the same. I think that’s really important for folks, and being brave with that. I say being brave because somebody asked about it first, and it’s not often the first person that makes the biggest impact. It’s the second person, the second follower. The leader makes it safe. The next person is the most critical piece because sometimes the leader does, and it’s really awkward because they over-share, they make things uncomfortable; but if we flip it around, the leader goes and then somebody else goes. Now everybody else feels it safe, much like pinball once you unlock the multi-ball.

John: Yeah. It all comes back to pinball. It really does. That’s so great. I never really thought about that, of it’s that second person that makes it not weird because once there are two, well now it’s a thing. Now it’s tradition, if you will. Well everyone’s doing it type of a thing. Where, if it’s just the one person, well it’s just Carl’s whatever. But, no, somebody else did it too, and now it’s a chain. Now it’s one of those email chains from the ‘90s of, if you don’t forward this, then all the bad luck.

Phil: You mean it’s what I get on Facebook Messenger 74 times a day from my friends because they forward it onto me, so, yeah, the same thing.

John: Exactly. That’s a huge point that I never really thought about, of how big of a deal that is for that second person to normalize it, maybe go a little bit further if that first one didn’t go far enough or die within if that one was kind of creepy, but it normalizes it, which is such a great point. Do you feel it’s more on the individual to create that in their little circle or is it on the tone of the top of an organization to make it, this is how we do things here?

Phil: I think it’s both. Usually, someone has to go first, and usually it’s someone at the bottom that does that. Seldom is the CEO or the CFO or the CAO the most gregarious person on the team. Now if it is, fantastic. Let that happen. That absolutely can filter down. If it isn’t, then often filter from the bottom up, and I think that’s okay too, because what happens is the key is to tie that to your organization’s values.

Working at Vector, one of our values is teamwork. Well teamwork means we trust each other. We trust each other because we share. We share because it’s safe. Once it’s safe, then we’re cut back. Oh, it’s safe, so we trust each other. We trust each other, so we share. We share because we’re focused on teamwork. It goes both ways there, so I think it’s an and, not an or.

John: No, it is. It certainly helps when people at the top are receptive, but they rarely have that idea, like you said, because they’re worried about bigger things going on. It’s cool that people feel like they can share that because it’s receptive, which is great that you’re there. That’s awesome. Very cool, very cool.

Is there anything that Vector does or places that you’ve seen to encourage the sharing? Is there, not a mandated thing, but a regular thing where people share?

Phil: Yeah. Well, totally out on holidays, it’s often really easy, dressing up for holidays, doing something fun. Again, to that point executives lead, I’ve seen this really well at Vector, believe it or not. For the holidays, I see, for Halloween, we had the executive team dressed up like the cast of Scooby-Doo.

John: Oh, that’s awesome.

Phil: Yeah. That was really great. My boss is the Chief Sales Officer. He dressed up like Fred. We had the CFO, believe it or not, was dressed up like Shaggy.

John: That’s great.

Phil: We had people dressed up like Scooby, like Thelma. It was really cool. They didn’t just stand in their office like, hey, I’m dressed up, look at me. No. They went around, and they passed candy out in their costume, which I thought was really cool. That’s one way.

I think other organizations do that often through their philanthropic efforts. They let employees suggest, hey, what are you passionate about? Whether that’s your favorite LGBTQ+ nonprofit, whether that’s you’re interested in homelessness and ending that and child poverty or whatever that is, that lets people plug in because then it ties to their values and they’re able to let that hang out in ways they wouldn’t.

It isn’t always pinball because pinball sometimes is too much play, but pinball can then come from that because now we’ve made it safe to be different. Being safe to be different then allows us to do things that really aid that organization, help them find their “And” on their own.

John: That’s really great, and such cool examples that people could do easily. It’s just being vulnerable and being okay with just letting your guard down of, yeah, I dressed up like a Scooby Doo character and I’m passing out candy. What’s your problem? type of thing. Not having to be so serious all the time and talking work all the time. Sometimes it’s good to have those little distractions to bring people together tighter, like you were saying. Yeah. That’s awesome, man. That’s so great.

Any words of encouragement to people listening that have a hobby or a passion that they’re like, this has nothing to do with my job? Maybe it’s pinball or maybe it’s something else.

Phil: Yeah. Well, I think, first, ask around. Ask people where it’s already safe. Just ask questions. Hey, do you like pinball? Do you like, whatever your hobby is? Do you do that? Pay attention. You’ll often see clues. You might see a picture of something. You might see a book on a table. You might see something that they post on Instagram or Facebook or something. I’m not encouraging to stalk people, but just pay attention. If they post something in public, they want it remarked on, so do that.

The other thing is go first and help somebody go second. Make it safe for them as well. The third thing I would do, and I would encourage this very much is hang up pictures of what you are interested in. Make your cubicle, make your office more you. Just bring that out so that people can make it safe to ask you questions. Because, much like I said, if you’re asking others questions, that’s great, but if you don’t make it safe for them to ask you questions, a lot of times they’re not going to.

So, while leaders might eat last, leaders need to go first. That doesn’t entitle leaders necessarily, but people on this revolution, the “And” revolution of showcasing who they are beyond work, they have to go first and encouraging that second person as well.

John: And making it easy for them to ask because, yeah, if you have blank walls, then I don’t know what to talk to you about other than that spreadsheet that you have on your desk or whatever. How many pinball machines can you fit in your office, Phil?

Phil: All of them. You know why? Because they’re on my phone. That’s the great part, right?

John: Okay.

Phil: Yeah. I can download the Stern Pinball app, it’s called Pinball Arcade, and I can play right on my phone.

John: Oh, that’s fantastic. So now there’s pinball on the phone now. Of course there is. Why wouldn’t there be?

Phil: Yeah, and it’s really fun. Again, a lot of times it isn’t that I play it. It’s that I can share it. Somebody asks me about pinball, be like, “No, dude, are you really into that?” Then I can get my phone, and I’ll be like, “No, no, hold on. Here’s a pinball game that I love to play. Give it a shot.” I’ll show them how to play. Their eyes will just light up. They thought I was kidding, or they thought it was because I like The Who. Now I do like The Who, but really I like pinball the game, not just Pinball Wizard, the song.

John: Yes, exactly. It’s just that happens to be the theme song.

Phil: That’s right.

John: Yeah, just nice coincidence. This has been awesome, man, and so many great nuggets for people to take away to apply in their world pretty simply. That’s the thing about a lot of this is it’s simple but not easy, I guess, but those ideas are really excellent for people to use. Thank you, man.

Before we wrap this up though, it’s only fair that I turn the tables. You are now the host of the show. You can rapid fire question me now since I so rudely started out with that.

Phil: So, pinball for you, do you play? What’s your game?

John: You know I haven’t played pinball in so long, but I’m trying to remember what games — I don’t even remember, but I feel like there was a baseball one that I did really like because it had the baseball diamond. There would be runners that would advance and what have you. I can relate to that, being a baseball player as well. It was like, oh, it’s taking that sport and applying it in this game, so that was always fun. I guess I didn’t do it often enough to fully appreciate, but now, the next time I see one, my mind is blown right now.

Phil: There you go.

John: I can’t unsee it.

Phil: Board games or video games.

John: Video games, man. Original NES. I have it in my basement, the original when I was a kid. It still works. The Duck Hunt doesn’t work on the flat screens anymore. Now what’s so cool about that is I went out online and because the chips can hold so much more information now, I have one cartridge that has like 400 NES games. I mean, Tyson’s Punch Out, Mario 1, 2, 3, all that stuff, all the way from Excitebike to Zelda and all that in between. Yeah, it’s pretty awesome.

Phil: That’s fantastic. So, sports games or action games.

John: Oh, wow. I’m going to go sports. I’m going to go sports games probably more for that realistic side of it again and also the competitive side of it where I can place my friend. There was a friend growing up. We used to always play Nintendo baseball. Every time he was losing in the bottom of the ninth and the he hits a ground ball for the third out and then he accidentally hit reset, so then he could claim that he was undefeated. I’m like, “You’re a punk, man.” The sports ones were always fun because they were more interactive, I guess. You could play against someone.

Phil: RBI baseball or Tecmo Super Bowl.

John: Oh, wow. That’s a real hard one. I don’t know. Am I allowed to be Bo Jackson in the Tecmo?

Phil: Well, you must pick the open rates, of course.

John: Yeah, that’s exactly right because then you never get tackled.

Phil: That’s right.

John: Man, that’s a really hard question. Probably both. I don’t even know. I’m going to cheat and cop out like you did.

Phil: That’s fair. Last question, what is the first video game you remember playing?

John: Oh, wow. It would have been on an Atari. It might have been Pac-Man. It might have been Pac-Man. Yeah. Although I do remember Pong. I do remember Pong, but I’m not sure if that was the first one I played. It might have been Pac-Man. Yeah. What about you? I’ll throw it back really quick.

Phil: Oh, of course I played Pong, but the one that I remember the best playing was Enduro Racer, the old racing game, because all you could see were headlights when you get fog and you get headlights.

John: And they were square.

Phil: Yeah, and they were square, and you only got four different directions you could go.

John: Right.

Phil: And a button that you couldn’t hit to do anything because you’re not shooting out of your car, right? So, yeah, early racing games, not as much fun as one might think.

John: Right. That’s awesome, man. That’s so cool. Well this has been so much fun, Phil. Thanks for being with me on What’s Your “And”?

Phil: Yeah, thanks for having me.

John: Everyone listening, if you want to see some pictures of Phil and his pinball machines or connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there, and while you’re on that page, please click that big green button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 290 of What’s Your “And”? Follow-Up Friday Edition. This is John Garrett. Each Friday, I follow-up with a guest who had been on the show a few years ago to hear what’s new with their passions outside of work and also hear how this message might have impacted them since we last talked.

I’m so excited to let everyone know that my book is being published very soon. It’ll be available on Amazon and a few other websites. Check out whatsyourand.com for all the details or sign up for my exclusive list. You’ll be the first to know when it’s coming out.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every Wednesday and now with the Follow-Up Fridays, and this one is no different with my guest, Amy Vetter. She’s a keynote speaker, CPA, yogi and technologist, and now she’s with me here today. Amy, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Amy: Thanks for having me.

John: Absolutely. This is exciting. I remember the first time when we recorded was in person at Accountex in Boston.

Amy: That’s right. Yeah. You were having trouble with your equipment or something, I’d say.

John: Because it was my first in-person interview. Like, how will I even do this? No one has ever wanted to talk to me in person before, so it was groundbreaking. It’s awesome to have you back.

Amy: You do exist.

John: Exactly. I’m a real person. Now I do my rapid fire questions in the beginning, right out of the gate. Here we go. First one, if you had to choose, Harry Potter or Game of Thrones?

Amy: I don’t watch either, so I’ll just assume Game of Thrones because people talk about it so much.

John: All right. Okay, okay. How about a favorite cereal even as a kid?

Amy: As a kid, it was Cheerios, but now I actually eat really gross granola with pumpkin seed, flax.

John: Oh, no. Childhood Amy is embarrassed for you. Yeah. You can’t put enough of your own sugar on that to make it go, but you know what? It’s healthy. How about heels or flats?

Amy: Heels. They’re not as comfortable, so, heels for working, flats for fun.

John: Okay. All right. How about a favorite Disney character?

Amy: Favorite Disney character. Well I’m going to say one but I don’t think she’s Disney.

John: Counts for me.

Amy: Wonder Woman. She’s not Disney.

John: Right. I feel like Disney owns everything anyway.

Amy: I don’t want a princess. I want —

John: Right. You want somebody that’s kicking butts and taking names.

Amy: Exactly.

John: I hear you. I hear you. All right. How about cats or dogs?

Amy: Dogs.

John: Dogs? All right. Two more. How about a favorite place you’ve been on vacation.

Amy: Oh, I have so many. Well I would say everywhere in Italy, Santorini. In the United States, one of my favorite states is Utah. It’s just gorgeous.

John: Yeah, yeah. It’s really gorgeous. The last one, toilet paper roll, over or under?

Amy: I don’t care. People make issues about that. I just don’t care.

John: Right. Just as long as it’s on the —

Amy: Exactly. That it’s been refilled.

John: Exactly. It’s not sticking up on the back of the toilet or whatever. Yeah. That’s awesome. Very cool, very cool. Episode 104, when we talked in Boston, it was a lot of yoga and playing bass guitar, which is pretty cool. Is that still stuff that you’re pretty passionate about and actively doing still?

Amy: Absolutely. I think, with anything, you have to make a commitment to things that you really enjoy just as important as your work. Yoga, even though I own a yoga studio, it’s work but it never feels like work. I think what’s really important is that you’re finding a way to maintain your own practice even if it is your work, whether it be meditation or mindfulness activities. The bass guitar, I’ve been playing consistently since. Not that I‘m really any better, but I really enjoy it.

John: That’s all that matters. Right?

Amy: At the end of the day, when I’m playing rock, that’s all I care about. I play as part of a — it’s an adult performance band. I actually pay to play, so it’s not like anyone’s hiring me for gigs. We’re playing Queen this season, and it’s just fun, challenging music so I’m enjoying it. I have started up boxing.

John: What? Okay.

Amy: Yeah. That has been fun. My son and I decided to pick something new to try together and so we signed up for TITLE boxing. That actually has been a lot of fun. It’s my yin and yang.

John: Right. That is the opposite of yoga.

Amy: Sometimes you’ve just got to punch stuff.

John: Right. Okay. I can get into that yoga.

Amy: Exactly.

John: That’s so fantastic. What made you choose boxing?

Amy: It’s something I’d never done before. Actually my older son, whatever they call it, like when you have a man crush, with Michael Jordan. He did the Rocky movies and the Marvel movies and so my son started getting really into it. Then my younger son and I were trying to pick something new to do together, and we’re like, let’s do that. Let’s try boxing. We do it once a week and have a lot of fun.

John: Yeah. Is it mostly hitting bags or —

Amy: Yeah.

John: Each other?

Amy: When they start with the cardio and the ending — I don’t want that. I just want to hit the bag.

John: Right.

Amy: Any class where that part is shorter, I just want to go in and hit the bag.

John: Is that like the big, long one that weighs almost like a body weight?

Amy: Yeah.

John: Yeah. As opposed to the little speed bag.

Amy: Yeah, that was my Mother’s Day gift last year was new boxing gloves.

John: That’s so great.

Amy: Then another fun thing that we incorporated was — so my older son graduated high school last year, and I was trying to think of what to get him as a gift. He always, his whole life, has walked around beatboxing around the house and so I’m like, I’m getting him a DJ set, getting him something he totally doesn’t need that he could just have fun with. So he’s been learning to DJ and then I told him I’m giving him his first gig. So he has started to DJ my yoga classes.

John: What? Okay.

Amy: It has been so fun to do together. Then I’d give him new challenges with music because he doesn’t know our fun ‘90s music because he’s playing all current music. I’m like, you’ve got to throw something for me and my classes first.

John: Right, right.

Amy: He’s like, “Snoop Dogg? Was that some — yup, Snoop Dogg, Beastie Boys, yeah, throw them in.

John: That’s so fantastic. So cool. What a great Mother’s Day gift, boxing gloves. Did it come with the macaroni glued on like an elementary school kid made it?

Amy: No. They were the real thing just in gold. I have gold boxing gloves.

John: There you go. That’s so great, so great. Also cool, even the guitar, like you said, you paid to play, but so what? So many of our passions, we’re paying or not making money with. It really doesn’t matter, right? Because it’s something that you’re doing for you, not for everyone else.

Amy: I think that’s the thing you have to let go off with any of this stuff is you don’t have to be the best. Because a lot of times, what prevents people from starting something is like, well I’m not good at it or I’ve never done it. I hear it all the time when people come into the yoga studio. I’m not flexible. I’m not this or I’m not that. Well you can’t be anything unless you start. Who cares if you’re not perfect if you’re enjoying it. At the end of the day, all I wanted to play was rock. I don’t care if I’m perfect or I’m the best. I get to play at these fun concerts.

John: Yeah. Exactly. I just want to play some Queen.

Amy: Yeah.

John: Is that too much to ask? Then when I’m done, go punch something really hard.

Amy: Exactly. Wow, what a picture we’re coming up with me here.

John: I’m just picturing you with the bass with your boxing gloves on. I don’t know what kind of chord you can do with the boxing gloves, not much.

Amy: I don’t think much, but it might sound just the same.

John: The sound has got to be good for plucking.

Amy: Yeah. Right.

John: That’s super cool though that you did get out of your own way for that, and it’s enjoyable.

Amy: Well I also think you can pick something with both of the things, even the DJing with the yoga and the boxing. It’s like, just because you find something that works for you one year, doesn’t mean to not go try something again. Or if you’re getting really good at something, break the learning and teach yourself to be a beginner again. That was part of this was just like, okay, want to shake it up. I’ve got a workout routine that I really enjoy, but why not try something new and not be perfect at it again and just see if I liked it.

John: Yeah. What’s been the hardest part for you?

Amy: I would say it’s obviously you walk into anything new and there are always people there that are the die-hards that come all the time, that practice all the time, that are so good, and you’re trying to figure it out. Especially with guitar, I know when I started, they told me it was a beginner’s program. I show up, and it’s all these men with their guitars that are amazing, but they had never come out of their basement. So they’re saying that everyone’s at the same stage but, no. I was really a beginner, and these guys were playing ridiculous, amazing on their guitar. That’s one of those things is that you just realize it just doesn’t matter. I don’t have to be as good as them. I can still play my part and figure it out. That’s all that matters.

John: Right, and you’re part of the collective when you’re in a band anyway. It’s not a solo for you. Occasionally there’s a bass solo but not usually.

Amy: Not too many. I can hide.

John: Exactly. When I was in the marching band in college, my very first time on pre-game, I didn’t play a single note because there’s 60,000 people in the stadium and they’re all going to know if I’m out of line.

Amy: Right.

John: Not a single one of them is going to know if I played the wrong note or none at all. If you get half of them right the first time, that’s great. You’ll come back. You practice a little bit. It’s enjoyable for you. Like you said, it’s not like you’re getting paid. You’re not at the amphitheater where people are like, “I paid $100 for this.” No, you didn’t.

Amy: No, I am actually paying them to do it.

John: Right, right. Exactly.

Amy: That’s what I constantly remind myself, is like, don’t feel bad. You’re paying to be here. The other thing is I think it’s just hard when you’re a Type A personality and competitive by nature that when people are better at you than things, you immediately start talking yourself down or making yourself feel bad. You have to keep reminding yourself, who cares? Literally, I’m never making a career out of this, and if I’m enjoying it, that’s all that matters. At the end of the day, if I’m getting a release from it and it’s making me happy and it creates joy for me, then that’s all that matters.

John: Right. That’s such a huge takeaway for everyone listening, is that’s why you’re doing it is for the joy that you get. If someone else doesn’t like it or whatever, you’re not the best, you’re not supposed to be. You’re doing it for your own enjoyment. Yeah, that’s such a huge takeaway, such a huge takeaway. Have you seen examples of companies, of places that you’ve been around that are encouraging people to share their “Ands” those hobbies and passions outside of work?

Amy: Well, you know that I do the B3 Method. That’s the Business, Balance and Bliss. I’ve had a number of companies hire me, and I think what has been so interesting is watching what happens after and people really explain their hobbies. One in particular that just popped into my head was someone that started painting because of the talk, and they were like, “I really want to get back to painting.” They came back and had a whole event with their team, and it was a painting event but it was blindfolded painting.

John: Oh, wow. Okay. That levels the playing field quickly.

Amy: Right. So, at the end of the day, everyone could just enjoy it, and shifting spots and painting on other people’s paintings. Again, was just shaking up the whole thought about, does it have to be perfect and is it collectively fun? I think when you can bring those challenges into the workplace where people can bring in their own interests, it’s so important because you learn so much more about people than when everyone is always talking about work. When they can come in and can showcase their talents or their hobbies and everyone can participate, even if it’s not something everyone enjoys, then it’s someone else’s turn.

John: Exactly. Because that’s what really lights people up. It’s rare people work that lights people up. They’re good at it, and they do it because that’s what pays the bills, but what really lights you up is punching stuff and playing bass guitar and doing yoga.

Amy: You are totally ruining my yogi persona.

John: You’re breathing deeply while you punch —

Amy: I’m doing breathwork while I’m punching the bag, yeah.

John: That’s what lights you up, and that’s cool. What lights someone else up is different. There’s no reason why we should think that everyone’s the same because they’re clearly not. Awesome to hear that example that people can easily do where they’re at now. Yeah.

This has been so much fun, Amy, catching up. Man, I feel like I should sign up for some boxing now. Next time I see you at a conference, I’m going to have to duck. Whoa.

Amy: I haven’t hit people, just bags.

John: There’s always a first.

Amy: There’s always a first. Yeah.

John: There’s always a first. Right. So, it’s only fair that since I rapid fire questioned you right out of the gate, that I now allow you to be the host of the show. If you want to rapid fire question me, I’m in the hot seat. Whenever you’re ready, fire away.

Amy: All right. What’s your favorite hobby instead of comedy, besides comedy?

John: College football and eating ice cream, and at the same time is heaven. Watching college football is the best.

Amy: Is it cookies and cream ice cream or mint chocolate chip?

John: Between those two, wow, that’s a tough choice. Oh, man.

Amy: I’m really asking challenging things.

John: Those are very hard. This is deep. Yeah, I guess I’ll go cookies and cream on that one. I love ice cream that has chunks in it because then I can get more calories in each sitting.

Amy: I mean if you’re going to do it, you might as well just go all out.

John: Totally.

Amy: Yeah.

John: Totally.

Amy: Mountains or beach?

John: Since I live in Colorado now, I guess I get the mountains all the time, so I think the beach is a little more special. I’d say beach simply because I have to get on an airplane to go to it, so it feels like a treat. Maybe I’m spoiled because I can just go in my backyard and look. Oh, there they are, the mountains. If I lived on the coast, I’d probably say the opposite but, yeah, I’ll say beach. That was really fun. Now I need some ice cream. Gosh, I’m starving.

Amy: I know. You’ve got a craving now.

John: Totally. Well this has been so much fun, Amy. Thanks for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Amy: Well thanks for having me, always fun.

John: Very cool. Everyone listening, if you want to see some pictures of Amy in action or maybe connect with her on social media and be sure and listen to her podcast, you can go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there, and while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 289 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. Each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And” those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiates you when you’re in the office.

I’m so excited to let everyone know that my book’s being published very soon. It’ll be available on Amazon and a few other websites. Check out whatsyourand.com for all the details. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s listening to the show and then changing the cultures where they work because of it, and the book will really help to spread this message.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Kate Johnson. She’s the owner and bookkeeper at Heritage Business Services in Virginia Beach, and now she’s with me here today. Kate, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Kate: I’m so glad to be here.

John: This is awesome. I’m glad we connected on LinkedIn and here we are. Let’s make some magic. As you know, 17 rapid fire questions out of the gate.

Kate: I’m ready.

John: All right, yeah. Here we go. Favorite color.

Kate: Baylor green and gold.

John: There we go. This is going to be an easy one then. Least favorite color.

Kate: Burnt orange.

John: There it is. I knew that was coming. All right, brownie or ice cream.

Kate: Ice cream.

John: Okay. That’s a tough one though. You wanted to put them together, didn’t you?

Kate: I’m more of a savory girl than a sweet girl.

John: Oh, okay. How about favorite actor or actress?

Kate: Tina Faye.

John: Oh, solid answer. Yeah, very good answer. Would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

Kate: 100% early bird, every day, I’m not sleeping in, every day.

John: Wow. That’s impressive. That’s impressive. You’re doing it for me then. That’s great. How about would you say more puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

Kate: Crossword. I grew up with an excellent crossword puzzler as a dad. He taught me everything.

John: All right, all right. How about pens or pencils?

Kate: Whatever I can grab from my kids usually, around the house.

John: Just whatever, like crayon, whatever.

Kate: Yeah.

John: There it is.

Kate: Exactly, exactly.

John: That’s great. That’s really great. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Kate: PC.

John: PC. Yeah, me too, me too. How about on your mouse, right click or left click?

Kate: I don’t know. I don’t know. Right click.

John: Right click. That’s the one that opens up all the options.

Kate: Yeah.

John: Right?

Kate: There you go.

John: That’s where all the cool stuff hides. How about do you have a favorite movie of all time?

Kate: Oh, man. I watched a lot of A League of Their Own when I was a kid.

John: That’s a great movie. It’s hilarious and heartfelt and so many actors and actresses in there.

Kate: So good, so good.

John: Yeah, really good movie, really good movie. More Star Wars or Star Trek?

Kate: Star Wars.

John: Okay. More heels or flats?

Kate: You’ll find me in my Chacos, lots of flats.

John: Okay. All right. There you go. How about as a bookkeeper, balance sheet or income statement?

Kate: I like the balance sheet. I came at bookkeeping from a personal finance side, and balance sheet shows net worth. That’s my approach.

John: There you go. More cats or dogs?

Kate: We’ve got a great dog, so, dogs.

John: There you go. What kind of dog do you have?

Kate: A medium-sized mutt, black and white.

John: That’s the same as ours. They may be brothers.

Kate: He looks like a bird dog, sort of, but we don’t really know.

John: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Three more, three more. Do you have a favorite number?

Kate: Let’s go with three. I’ve got three kids. My husband’s a tailhook pilot. He likes to catch the three wire. So let’s go with three.

John: There you go. That’s fantastic. How about a least favorite vegetable?

Kate: Cauliflower.

John: Yeah, that’s a solid answer. What the hell are they doing, putting with rice now? They’re sneaking it into stuff.

Kate: Yeah. I stay away from that.

John: Yeah, yeah. Last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Kate: I would say one of the things I probably use the most is probably my Bible, so I would go with that if I had to pick one thing.

John: That’s a solid answer. Of course it’s a solid answer, which dovetails perfectly into your passion outside of work of just directing the church children’s choir, which is so cool and gotta be really fun at the same time.

Kate: I like it. I never was a kid person though I have three.

John: Right. It just happened.

Kate: I didn’t come at it from necessarily loving to work with kids. I’m still learning about all the fun stuff that you can do when you’re leading a group of kids. I have fun. We have some good laughs. I try to be not all business, but it’s something I’m learning.

John: Yeah, but you also have to learn how to sing the song —

Kate: Exactly.

John: — because we’re going to be performing it. Right?

Kate: I try not to be all business though.

John: Right. Yeah. We’re just doing one concert a year. That’s it kid. How did you get started with that?

Kate: Yeah. My oldest is eight, so I’m still on the young side of our family. About three years ago, I realized that I wanted my kids to learn to sing a lot of the songs that I loved and that I have fond memories of, growing up, singing. I was in this little, small church children’s choir too, when I was little, and those kids can memorize anything. Okay, do I want my kids memorizing the theme song to Paw Patrol, or do I want them memorizing great theological truths and hymns that will carry them through life when they need it most? Because that’s how the church music works in my life, it plays in my head often. But our church didn’t have a little program and so lots of times, especially with churches, if you’ve got a good idea then the pastor says, “All right, well you get to lead it.”

John: Right. Exactly.

Kate: It’s a really small thing. I just have the kids for 15 minutes every Sunday during the Sunday School time block and then they break up into their Sunday School classes based on their age group. I get them all for 15 minutes a week, so we’re able to pull off a few songs a year. I try to aim for about four, singing in public, four times a year. Yeah, it got started because I wanted my kids to do this, and this was the best way to make sure that I kept singing, kept introducing them to music. I wanted them to appreciate music.

I teach rhythms and notes and stuff too. It’s not just memorizing word. I think I like it. It allows me to be creative. I have full liberty to do what I want. I basically just tell the Sunday School directors, “This is what I’m thinking about for this quarter,” and they say, “Sure.”

John: Yeah, yeah. It’s like, if somebody says that’s a bad idea then now you’re in charge.

Kate: Yeah. Exactly.

John: So just go along with it. That’s so fantastic though and something where you just started out from scratch and not just teaching them to memorize words, but it sounds like it’s more than that. It’s learning music, more than that, notes and rhythm and things like that which is really fantastic.

Kate: For me, I wanted my kids to get that backbone of standing up in front of a crowd and people looking back at you. I want my kids to be bold and I think that this is a way to help flex that muscle or develop that muscle a little bit. That way when they’re 20 and 30 and 40, and they’re maybe being asked to do more for their churches, they’ll be ready. It won’t be as intimidating. There’s a little bit of that as well, just the being able to be confident. All those were my reasons.

John: Yeah, yeah. Is that something that you find translates to sometimes work settings as well or other places in life where you have to speak or you have to be in front of people or you have to carry a small audience or whatever, you can pull on that experience that you had?

Kate: Yes, exactly. I was doing stuff like this from the age of, I don’t know, six or seven or eight as well. I had very vivid memories of programs that we did or things that were uncomfortable or struggling with my — not fighting really, but disagreeing with my mom about how much I have to practice and trying to learn my lines because I used to do — we would do bigger musicals when I was younger too.

Just all of that compounds into the best accountants are, if you can not be nerding all the time and introverted all the time, it’s good for your business. So I do, I’ve given presentations at my coworking space. There’s a gal I met at my gym that asked me to be a guest speaker at something that she runs. Yeah, for sure it helped starting from a young age, and that’s what I hope for, for my kids as well.

John: Yeah. That’s super awesome. Is there one of the shows that you’ve put together with your children’s choir that comes to mind that’s one of your more favorite or most memorable?

Kate: One year for Christmas, what I did is I just taught a bunch of old Christmas carols and we went and sang at a local nursing home. That was really cool. I did some pretty big build-up to it to where I was not just teaching the songs but teaching why we’re going out into the community.

We actually did a couple of Sundays before where we did some crafts together because I wanted them to be able to approach the residents of the home. I know with little kids they can be kind of shy but if they had something they could hand to them that that would break the ice. So we made little ornaments and stuff like that.

Throughout each week, I’m saying, “Why are we doing this? You might be a little scared, so let’s talk about this, what it’s going to be like. They might look a little different than you’re used to, or they might be older than you’re used to seeing, but they’re excited that you’re there. We can love them well by doing this and bring joy to them at this Christmastime.” That’s one really, really cool thing that I’m proud of and that the kids did — they did such a good job. It was like the total light to these people.

I actually wrote a little short Christmas play for our Christmas program two years ago. Because, again, I don’t have the kids for very long, so I didn’t know of anything that was appropriate for about a 15, 20-minute length of time. So I wrote a short one that basically just involved traditional Christmas carols and a lot of scripture because the Bible — the Christmas story is told pretty clearly in the Bible so a lot of the words that I needed were there and, yeah, kids memorized lines. It was really, really good, so I was proud of them.

John: That’s impressive because that’s a production value as well of you’re not just taking music and, here, sing Jingle Bells. It’s, no, no, we’re going to do this and we’re going to do this and then there’s this line. Yeah, there’s a lot of moving pieces. That’s impressive. Yeah. You’re going to be on Broadway soon enough. Somebody is going to find out.

Kate: Here’s the problem. I’m not that good of a singer, and I don’t really play musical instruments. It’s been fun because I’m coming at this not from the place of being an excellent musician. I was in band through high school, so I can read music. I play the trumpet. I’m not leading children’s choir from my trumpet.

John: Right.

Kate: I have a small little keyboard that I bring out every Sunday. I can play the top hand of the piano, but I can’t even play both hands. I didn’t want that to stop me. I wasn’t going to let that be an excuse. That’s really all you need to be able to just teach some basics, and the kids are the ones that are singing, not me really, so no one ever hears me but the kids.

John: No, but that’s so fantastic. My kudos to you for putting aside the ego or the judgement of yourself or maybe, what are people going to think of me because I’m only playing the treble clef of the piano. They don’t even know. They’re like, wow, you’re amazing. That’s kudos to you because it’s so easy for us to judge ourselves in everything that we do. Yeah. I think that’s really awesome.

Do you feel like any of these skills, from dealing with children to music to putting up a show together, performing or helping them on the performance side, do you feel any of that gives you a skill that you bring to work?

Kate: The background of my business is I have an MBA. I worked for a while and then we had children. I’m also married to a man in the Navy. So my career didn’t go the exact way I had initially thought. Turns out everything has worked out well.

After a period of getting my kids — they’re all three, really close in age — through the baby stage and into a school setting, I realized that I was ready to try to do something else. That’s how I started my bookkeeping business, but I had never done bookkeeping ever. I have had a few accounting classes, but I had to do something completely out of my comfort zone.

Being an entrepreneur is hard in ways that I never would have — they don’t teach you in business school. I think that’s just how it relates. I knew that I wanted to use my brain, use my skills, use my education and be a good steward of my time, so I said, well, I’ve got to figure something out. For me, it wasn’t going to be just going and getting a full-time job, which I could’ve done but that wasn’t going to be the best solution for my family.

That’s just how I would compare it. It was, I had a need in my life. Necessity is the mother of invention, like they say. I had to invent this role for myself that 4, 5, 6 years ago, I never would’ve thought this was where I was going to be. 4, 5, 6 years ago, I never would’ve thought I would have been leading a children’s choir. Never. Because I’m not into kids and I’m not a musician.

John: Right, right right. Or a singer or any of that.

Kate: Yeah, but here I am.

John: Yeah. You created something out of nothing because it’s what you wanted or needed, and here we are, in the same way that you did with the choir, which is super resourceful and also a little bit of stubbornness there which is good. I speak from experience. Because to be an entrepreneur, you really, really got to want to do it. You can’t just be like, well I guess I’ll try this. No. It’s really, really, really hard. That’s really fantastic. Is the choir something that you share with some clients at all? Does it every come up in conversation?

Kate: I think so. I’m very vocal about my kids in general, so that’s a way that — I work from home, and I have pictures of my kids on my business website. It’s very much a part of who I am. I think, in that way, it does. It’s probably going to come out that, oh, we’re singing in church this Sunday or something like that. I also try to — just in general, it wouldn’t be out of the ordinary for my clients to know about my faith, so in that way, as well, it would come out. I whistle a lot. They’ll probably hear me whistle.

John: Right. Is that Amazing Grace? What are you doing?

Kate: Like, oh, yeah.

John: Right.

Kate: In my coworking space, I’m probably one of the louder ones.

John: Yeah. Is that something that you’ve done all your career, even in your post-MBA days and more corporate days? Were you more open to sharing hobbies and interests or something more you do now?

Kate: Gosh, I think so. I’m a very extroverted person. In general, I have no problem just talking a lot, so I would say I’m really open to talking about most everything. Everyone, for sure, knows I’m a Baylor Bear very soon after they know me. They know that I’m a Christian. They probably know that I enjoy music. Yeah, I’m definitely on the over-sharer side of things, which I think is good. Life’s too short to try to not be myself, I’d realized, especially the older I get.

John: Yeah. I love that. So many people that I’ve interviewed for this, it’s, who have I told? Who haven’t I told? It’s just exhausting pretending to be a shell of who you really are. It’s not bringing drama and things that are really outside the realm of what we should be talking about at work. It’s something illegal or whatever. It’s like, no, this is what I love to do. It’s also impossible to say Baylor Bears without smiling.

Kate: Yeah.

John: You can’t. Baylor Bears. You smile. You just have to smile at the end. It’s just how it is. It’s also, I think, impossible to say one without the other. I’m not sure, but it seems like it’s almost one word. It should be hyphenated.

Kate: Right.

John: Yeah. That’s super awesome. How much do you think, I guess going back to maybe more of your bigger corporate days, how much is it on an organization to create that environment where, yeah, we have real people here that have other interests besides work, 100% of the time; and how much is it on the individual to maybe create that little circle amongst themselves or be a part of that?

Kate: That’s a good question. I want the answer to be that it’s largely on the individual because I don’t want myself to end up in an environment where, if it’s not — organization isn’t promoting it, that I’m somehow going to be stifled. No matter where I am, I want to be the kind of person who, within that environment, I can operate and still be myself and still share.

I think there will always be someone that you can connect with. Even if maybe you’re feeling like the organization you’re in is a little stodgy, just be the one to open it up because, again, life is too short.

John: I agree. I was with PWC back in the day and people would be like, “Oh, what did you do this weekend?” It’s like, oh, I drove to Springfield, Illinois and did a comedy show. They’re like, “Wait, what?” I didn’t know I was supposed to say nothing. I didn’t do anything. I just hung out. You asked, so I told you. 12 years later, I’m speaking at a conference and a guy remembers me who I’ve never worked with and never met. He’s like, “Oh, that’s the guy who did comedy at night.” It’s like, wait, what? All because you just let a little bit out. If you’re like, what? This company doesn’t have a choir? We do now. Everybody get around.

Kate: Yeah, exactly. Time for the sing-along.

John: Right. Exactly. I agree, totally. Certainly the tone at the top helps, but I think even if your company as a whole isn’t great for that, your department can be amazing. That manager that touches more people is the person that affects you more than — maybe the CEO’s a grumpy pants, but my manager is awesome. This department rocks sort of a thing. Yeah, and it’s too easy to play victim to, well, I can’t help. No, you can be. Maybe it’s not the place for you. Maybe that’s another part of it. I’ve never met anyone that’s like, yeah, I shared that I like to sing and then got fired. It’s like, wait, what?

Kate: Exactly. Exactly.

John: I’m a terrible singer, and I’ve never been fired for that. Yeah. I guess before I wrap this up, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that thinks that they have a hobby or a passion that has nothing to do with their job?

Kate: My words of encouragement will be just related to the hobby that I created for myself. Even if you have something that’s just been stewing in the back of your mind, man, that always seemed interesting but I’d never had the chance to learn it; don’t think you’re too old to learn something new because I, again, had no experience doing this and I did it. I have no doubt that — I pray that I have a lot longer left in living and that I’ll be, ten years from now I’ll have two or three other completely random things that I’m not even doing yet that I’ll be doing ten years from now.

John: Right. That’s fantastic. Yeah, absolutely. At any point, do you worry, like, people knowing that I have a hobby on the side or another interest besides bookkeeping that’s going to make them think that I’m not very good at my job or not dedicated to this?

Kate: Well, I wouldn’t want to work with them. I don’t care.

John: There you go.

Kate: If they’re concerned that I’m not serious enough about bookkeeping then they sound like a pretty awful person. That’s my take.

John: I agree because it’s like you can’t talk about it all the time. I do good work. Because I have another interest outside of work, doesn’t mean that I’m not good when I am doing my work. They’re completely unrelated.

Actually, in all the research that I’ve done, shows that if you have the outside things, that actually makes you better. The people that are 100% all work all the time are not as good at their jobs.

Kate: Right.

John: That’s awesome. Well before I wrap this up, it’s only fair, since I so rudely started out the episode firing away at you, you are now the host and you can question me. I’m ready.

Kate: Okay, okay. Sing in the shower or sing in the car.

John: Oh, that’s a good one. I’ll go singing in the car just because the radio is there.

Kate: Okay.

John: That way then I can turn it up and then I don’t hear myself singing type of thing.

Kate: All right, there you go. I’m from South Texas so this is important. Mexican salsa or Asian Sriracha sauce.

John: Oh, okay. I’ll go Mexican salsa I think.

Kate: So you like your spiciness, yeah? Okay.

John: Here’s the funny thing is I’m super mild. I’m not spicy. Actually we have some friends of ours, and she’s Mexican. She calls me white belly because she makes her own little side child’s portion for me. The medium salsa, that’s good. That’s enough. I like to feel my mouth and not have it on fire.

Kate: I like to be sweating by the end of my meal.

John: That does not seem enjoyable at all. I wouldn’t be able to taste the ice cream that I’m going to eat later.

Kate: There you go.

John: Yeah. I’m disappointing to everyone in Texas for sure.

Kate: One more. This is being recorded during the Corona quarantine, so, quarantine exercise. Walk around your block or ride your bike.

John: Walk around the block. We have a dog.

Kate: Okay.

John: So I walk the dog. Yeah. Then we go to the schoolyard and then I run with him on the leash, trying to catch up with him. I mean keep him on leash. It’s super fun to walk him for that. There you go. Awesome. Those are great questions. Thanks so much, Kate, for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Kate: Yes, I’m so glad. This has been so fun.

John: Everyone, if you want to see some pictures of Kate in action or connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there, and while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 288 of What’s Your “And”? Follow-Up Friday Edition. This is John Garrett. Each Friday, I follow-up with a guest who had been on the show a few years ago to hear what’s new with their passions outside of work and also hear how this message might have impacted them since we last talked.

I’m so excited to let everyone know that my book is being published very soon. It’ll be available on Amazon and a few other websites. Check out whatsyourand.com for all the details or sign up for my exclusive list and you’ll be the first to know when it’s coming out.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this Follow-Up Friday is no different with my guest, Tim Cowley. He’s the managing partner of Cowley CPAs outside of Detroit, Michigan, and now he’s with me here today. Tim, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Tim: Thanks for having me back.

John: Absolutely, man. Episode 91, God bless you for being on so early. Thank you, man. It has been a wild journey.

Tim: Yeah, still alive, so it’s a good thing.

John: Exactly. Exactly. So, I mixed it up a little bit, do the rapid fire questions upfront here. I hope you’ve got your seat belt on and you’re ready. First one, if you had to choose, Harry Potter or Game of Thrones?

Tim: Harry Potter.

John: All right. How about a favorite band or musician?

Tim: Still Plush.

John: Oh, okay. How about hamburger or pizza?

Tim: Probably pizza.

John: Yeah, yeah. How about when you were a kid, favorite activity in gym class?

Tim: Definitely not rope-climbing, probably dodgeball.

John: Right? Why do you climb the rope? For some reason you get to the top, you touch the metal, then you shock yourself. It’s like that’s a terrible trick.

Tim: Assuming you get to the top in the first place but, yeah.

John: Okay. All right. Dodgeball, solid. How about more oceans or mountains?

Tim: Mountains.

John: Okay. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Tim: At a beer-tasting one time that was blue cheese and peppercorn. That was pretty good.

John: Oh, wow. That sounds interesting. Okay, and the last one, last one, maybe the most important one. Toilet paper roll, over or under.

Tim: Like any sane person, over.

John: Right, that was a test.

Tim: Okay, good.

John: Because if you said under, they would be knocking on your door right now. Sir, we’ve got to take you outside. Yeah, so last time we talked it was at 91. It was rugby and brewing beer and then board games. Are all those things that you’re still actively passionate about and doing, or anything exciting from a couple of years ago?

Tim: Yeah, I’m still — well not playing rugby right now because obviously it’s hard to distance when you’re next to somebody.

John: It’s hard to tackle a guy from six feet away.

Tim: Yeah, right. Up until, obviously a couple of months ago when everything hit, we still had everything, going out for spring season. We still are doing some indoor stuff. There’s a soccer club that’s actually turning professional, right by us, called DCFC, that’s got probably thousands of fans and a stadium over Hamtramck, by us. We partnered with. They have an indoor facility, and we were doing our indoor stuff there. We had a flag rugby league going on in the winter time until we had to stop it later on, February-March time. So I haven’t been doing a lot of exercising recently, but up until that point, still around, still…

John: That’s impressive, man. Because it just hurts my legs right now just thinking about it. That’s impressive.

Tim: I still think I’m in better shape or was when we were practicing everything since when I was in college. I think I was in worse shape then, and I was playing football then. The amount of running is obviously a lot more, but definitely as I get older, I’m approaching my 37th anniversary of my birth. We’ve got one guy who’s in his 40s that still plays more at the time, and then get one guy that actually I met playing board games and then he started playing rugby, who’s a year or two older than me that’s still playing. He’s in ridiculous shape.

John: He’s like Tom Brady’s cousin. He’s doing some weird diet thing or something.

Tim: Yeah, he still has abs too, and I can’t make that — he has defined abs. I can’t make that boast.

John: Right, right. You sure it’s not a t-shirt? It’s just a t-shirt.

Tim: I have abdominals obviously but not…

John: I have an abdominal. It’s a single thing. No, that’s super cool, man. In the last couple of years, you’ve been playing in the leagues, still traveling around and doing that?

Tim: Yeah. We’re not travelling as much. We used to travel around as far as Pittsburgh or some other neighboring states, but we’re a little bit closer league right now. It’s been mostly Michigan stuff, but it’s still playing a bunch of teams and getting out there and enjoying running and the people and things sore the next day. It’s one of those things where you don’t really realize what kind of a release it is until you don’t do it for a while.

John: That’s a good point.

Tim: I was ready to get back to it and then something happens that prevents me from going back. Obviously it’s a little bit more stressful than usual but you know.

John: Right. That’s an interesting point of when you’re doing it, you don’t realize how much of an impact these outside-of-work passions have on your life as a whole. If someone were to tell you, “Okay, just stop working for six weeks,” all right, I guess I could, because you’d fill it with the other things. I feel it’s harder to turn off the passions than it is maybe to turn off the work.

Tim: Yeah. Same thing with going out and visiting restaurants and going and drinking with friends and stuff and going to a board game, all that kind of stuff you took for granted before. It’s not exactly the same right now obviously because you can’t really go anywhere. Some of the stuff fills the void like I’ve been doing obviously online Zoom calls and trying to do the networking and stuff like that over the Internet, which is not exactly the same.

John: Right.

Tim: But definitely missing those connections with people.

John: Yeah, because that’s the thing. In doing the research for my book, in the hierarchy of needs of modern humans, right there with shelter and food is human connection. It’s as important as shelter and food. To turn that off is super hard where you’re still able to do your work. It’s cool to hear that you’re able to maintain that anyway, even in this time, those passions, even just a little bit.

Tim: Even work stuff, the office I’m working out of is still — a couple of attorney’s offices work out of there. Obviously no one’s been going in. We’ve been all working remotely. Even professionally speaking, I’ve been doing some accounting work for a firm in California. They do a daily 15-minute video chat just to keep people engaged and not going crazy, I guess, just staring at their computers at home.

John: Yeah. That’s awesome though. The rugby story and the pictures from you playing are just awesome. It’s so cool. The board games, that’s something that you’ve been into for a while as well. Are you able to do that over Zoom, sort of, or not really?

Tim: Yeah, there are a couple of different ways to deal with that. They have online tabletop simulator things you can basically go — there are app versions you can play of a lot of games. There are also virtual tabletops you can go basically to play a game on, which I really haven’t done that much with, but doing some stuff over Zoom calls, that kind of stuff. Some stuff just doesn’t lend itself to being able to do that if there’s a lot of pieces people have to move or if you have to hand over the cards or whatever. You can’t obviously.

John: Right. Everyone sees all the cards.

Tim: We did a couple of things where if people have the same game, they can play it, and you can work it out that way.

John: There you go.

Tim: Yeah, just a little different adaptation of not getting together specifically.

John: Yeah. Before all this started, is it creating your own games, or is it just playing some newer kind of games that people have created? It’s not the usual Risk and things like that. It’s some more unique games.

Tim: Yeah, yeah. They come out with, the last time I heard, is about a thousand games a year that. It’s like drinking from a fire hose, trying to keep up with everything, but there’s a bunch of people that their full-time job is basically to review and talk about games. You can watch some of that and get an idea of stuff. Even the amount of games, if I bought a game every week, I still wouldn’t be able to play all.

John: Yeah, yeah. That’s wild.

Tim: But then you can get into stuff like I’ve been doing a lot of, which is nice, thanks to quarantine time, I’ve got a small problem buying miniature games and that kind of stuff and spending time with those. You’ve got to put them together. You’ve got to paint them. It’s a whole process, but it’s a separate part of a hobby that some people get into or don’t.

John: Yeah, yeah, but they’re miniature so they don’t take up a lot of space so why not buy a bunch of them. Right?

Tim: They’re small, doesn’t mean they don’t take up a lot of space.

John: That’s a good point.

Tim: If you ask my wife about it, she’ll tell you that our former guest bedroom is now our game room is now bursting at the seams as well.

John: Got it, got it. That’s cool though, man. It’s something to do and take your mind off of work at times and also a social thing which creates that human connection, like you were saying, even when we last talked, of different people from different professions and different backgrounds, similar to the rugby which is great. It just opens up your network.

Tim: Yeah. It’s a good way to meet people. Depending on what you’re doing, if you’re going to a game night or if you’re going to a store that holds events, whatever, you’re going to meet people. Some people you might not talk to outside, some people you may. I’ve got some people that I talk to all the time that are good friends now, doing that kind of stuff, and then clients and that kind of stuff. Like anything else, you get out there and you meet people. You’re going to get some returns from it, professionally and personally.

John: Yeah. Some people that I’ve talked with, actually a lot of people, when it comes to sharing, they’re a little bit reluctant because they don’t want to be judged by clients or coworkers or things like that. Is that something that’s ever crossed your mind?

Tim: Not really. It helps not to care that much about what people think about you.

John: Well, yeah, you could drive yourself crazy worrying about what everyone else does.

Tim: I know when I was still working at the firm I was at before, first time playing rugby, I know there were a couple of times where I went in the meetings and I had a black eye. Nobody would say anything about it, but they were clearly staring at it. It was like, okay, this is a little bit awkward but whatever. The fact that people really enjoy it and I get clients that think it’s great, I don’t think it’s a detriment by any means.

John: Yeah. I agree with you. I guess I didn’t know that we weren’t supposed to say. You asked me what I did this weekend so, yeah, I drove to the city and did a comedy club. What do you want? I don’t know type of thing. I love how you said that the right clients care, and they like it. You can’t be for every single person. Whether it’s the company that you work at or it’s a client or another department or whatever, you find your right fit, and those people care about you. That’s something that lights you up. Those people, they’re more fun to talk with and work with.

Tim: Yeah. I feel like if you have something to talk about besides just the nuts and bolts of what you’re doing, makes it a lot easier. I got clients I work with, I got one client that I go stay out there a couple of days because they’re a couple of hours away. We have dinner one night. We talk about obviously more than just work stuff. It’s good to be able to talk about more than just work.

John: Yeah. For sure, man, for both sides of that conversation. That’s awesome, man. Very cool. Do you have any words of encouragement to someone listening maybe that thinks that maybe their hobby or passion has nothing to do with their job?

Tim: Like everything else, professionally, you’ll never know what’s going to come up that’s going to be applicable. I’ve had stuff that, specifically with playing games and stuff, just the fact that you’re learning how to do something in a set rubric or rules or whatever, there’s obviously applicability for that in accounting or for the business stuff. You never know how it’s going to apply. You never know what person you’re going to make a connection with. I’ve been at evergreen events that you just start talking to somebody and you get on some topic and then 25 minutes later, you’re still talking to them about it. So making a meaningful connection versus just saying, “Well, this is my business, and this is what I do.” It’s not a surface level connection and I think can really help you out.

John: Yeah. I love that because everyone else in this room is also a really good business whatever person like you do, or an accountant. Well, we’re all good. Is everyone here fired from their job? No. We’re all still getting paid. We’re all good at what we do. Plus or minus, some are better, but not significantly better that you’re going to remember. Then you bump into someone else who also likes board games, it’s like, oh, I remember her or I remember him. It’s not because they were an accountant. It’s because of the other thing. That’s great to hear that it plays out in real life anyway instead of my bubble world of theory type of thing.

Tim: Yeah. I like beer and beer-making, and I can talk to clients. I’ve got a couple of brewery clients. It’s just a natural fit because they like someone that knows what’s going on there. Some things that you may know that someone else may not know if they don’t know anything about the process or — doing software implementation for this one client that if you don’t know what the process, I don’t know how you can get into the detail of making sure it works correctly. Again, there’s always stuff that could be applicable. Or if you can learn stuff quickly or adept, that’s also pretty important too. Some of my hobbies strengthen those skills.

John: Yeah, because here’s a new game, here are the rules, play. It’s like, wait, what?

Tim: Don’t be terrible is also the key.

John: Right. Why is Tim always the first one to lose? I’m like, oh, he’s an accountant. It’s like, no, no. I learn the rules. I get it. Now everyone’s like, wow, accountants are super-fast. They get all the rules. What is this Paycheck Protection Program? When that came out, you’re like, oh, easy. New rules every day, okay. We got it.

Tim: Well, if you’re assuming that there were rules at the beginning sort of thing.

John: I guess that’s true too. Never mind. 47-sided dice, what is this? That’s awesome, man. Well it’s so cool to hear that these are things that you’re still passionately pursuing and still playing rugby and brewing beer and playing games. It’s super cool to hear and so encouraging. Thanks so much, man.

Before we wrap this up, it’s only fair, since I rapid fire questioned you at the beginning, if you want to ask me any questions, you’re now the host of this show. It’s the Tim Cowley Show. Fire away. If you want to ask anything, I’m all yours.

Tim: All right. Skiing or swimming.

John: Oh, wow. Okay, can I do snowboarding? Could I do that one? Does that count?

Tim: I suppose, yeah. I lost over one time when I was in college. I messed up my knees. Every time I got through, I fell down, every single time.

John: It is a little tricky on that one. Luckily I go to the places where you ride up in the little car and then you can walk out.

Tim: Okay.

John: You carry it.

Tim: It’s a little bit different.

John: Yeah.

Tim: All right, beer or wine.

John: Oh, yeah. I’m a wine guy. Sorry, man.

Tim: I drink wine every once in a while too.

John: I think everyone should drink wine. Why not?

Tim: Yeah. It’s like everything else, if you buy bad, bad whatever, it’s going to be bad. If you buy a little bit better, it’s going to be — same with the way I feel about vermouth. You buy a Gallo. It’s terrible. If you buy the $10 bottle of vermouth, it’s infinitely better than… So.

John: Yeah. The great thing about wine, like at Trader Joe’s or something like that, you can get pretty decent wine for ten bucks or even less. It’s like, all right, that works. Cool, man. Thanks so much, Tim, for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”? It’s been really great catching up.

Tim: Yup, it’s my pleasure.

John: Absolutely. Everyone listening, if you want to see some pictures of Tim in action or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there, and while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 287 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. Each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And” those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiates you when you’re in the office.

I’m so excited to let everyone know that my book’s being published in just a few months. It’ll be available on Amazon and a few other websites. Check out whatsyourand.com for all the details. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s listening to the show and changing the cultures where they work because of it, and the book will really help to spread that message.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Jim Laing. He’s the regional controller with LDX Solutions outside of Seattle and now he’s with me here today. Jim, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Jim: My pleasure. Thank you very much for having me.

John: Oh, absolutely. It was so fun meeting you at the Sage event a couple of years ago that I spoke at and so I’m excited that we’re able to make this happen. We do the 17 rapid fire questions right out of the gate. Get to know Jim on a new level here. Start you out with an easy one, favorite color.

Jim: Favorite color is blue.

John: Nice. How about a least favorite color?

Jim: Mustard.

John: Mustard. Yeah, that’s a good answer. That’s a good answer. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Jim: That’s tough to choose. I like them both. Let’s go with Star Trek because I liked that first.

John: Okay, okay. All right. How about your computer, more PC or a Mac?

Jim: PC at the office, Mac at home.

John: Oh, fancy, like ambidextrous. I don’t even know if that applies but sounds good. How about favorite ice cream flavor?

Jim: Chocolate chip mint.

John: Oh, solid. I love how you put the chocolate chip first.

Jim: That’s stange?

John: Because some people say the mint chocolate chip and it’s like, mm.

Jim: Yeah, I don’t get that one.

John: Yeah, there should be more chocolate chips in there than mint. That’s awesome. How about a favorite movie of all time?

Jim: Nothing comes at the top of my mind, but I would say anything from Clint Eastwood in the early ‘70s.

John: Oh, okay. All right. That sounds good. How about what’s a typical breakfast?

Jim: Typical breakfast is coffee and lots of it.

John: Okay. Fair enough. There you go. How about financials, balance sheet or income statement?

Jim: You know all the way.

John: All right, all right. How about cats or dogs?

Jim: I have both, but I’m more of a dog guy.

John: Okay, all right, all right. How about a favorite number?

Jim: Number four, Bobby Orr, and that’s also the date of my birthday.

John: Oh, fantastic. That’s probably why Bobby Orr chose the number.

Jim: It might be.

John: Yeah, but what a legend. How about a least favorite vegetable?

Jim: Oh, that’s easy. That is going to be cucumbers or celery.

John: Really? Okay. All right. That’s interesting. I guess they are pretty similar because they’re just full of water and not a whole lot of taste. It’s like you have to dip them in something else in order to eat them.

Jim: Yeah. Some people don’t like cilantro. I don’t mind it, but cucumbers and celery, to this day, still don’t like them.

John: That’s interesting. Interesting. How about pens or pencils?

Jim: Pens.

John: Pens. There you go. No mistakes, I like that. How about puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

Jim: More Sudoku.

John: More Sudoku? There you go. How about chocolate or vanilla?

Jim: Chocolate.

John: Chocolate. Yeah. You’re like, that’s not even a question.

Jim: No.

John: Right. How about, do you have a favorite comedian?

Jim: Oh, there’s so many.

John: Yeah, rattle them off if you have more than one. That’s good.

Jim: Sure. Mel Brooks, Fred Sanford. Those are probably two of my favorites going way back. Robin Williams, fantastic, love him.

John: Yeah, those are all great, all great. Two more, two more. Early bird or night owl?

Jim: I like them both.

John: Okay. All right. Yeah. Just sleep during the day, I like that. No, I’m just… That’s why it’s coffee for breakfast. I can see what’s going on here. The last one, the favorite thing you own or the favorite thing you have.

Jim: I would say the championship ring from the Canadian Men’s Hockey. That’s probably the most cherished sporting thing that I have. Because when you play team sports, championships are very few and far between, unless you get extremely lucky to be on a good team, more than one opportunity in your life.

John: Yeah, absolutely. That dovetails perfectly into your passion and just playing hockey and just being around hockey, I guess. When did you get started playing?

Jim: I was five years old when a kid from Norway moved into my neighborhood, and we became fast friends. He was learning how to skate or continuing to learn how to skate, and he dragged me along with him. The next year when we were six, he came to me and said, “I’m going to play hockey, and my dad’s going to coach a hockey team. Do you want to come along with me?” I said, “Sure,” went back to my dad and said, “I want to go play hockey with my buddy, Tom, down the street.” My dad looked at me like I was crazy, said, “Hockey? Nobody plays hockey around here. What do you mean?”

John: Right.

Jim: To this day, he says that was the most expensive maybe he’s ever said in his life.

John: That’s awesome. That’s exactly very expensive. Yeah, for sure. Hockey is not a cheap sport. That’s for sure. That’s awesome though. So, at six years old, playing and then obviously continued to play. Was it mostly rec leagues? Or at some point, I’m sure, it moved to travel teams.

Jim: Yeah. It started off as rec leagues, house leagues and then the scene started to dwindle. My first organization folded and then the second organization folded, so there was only one other one. By that time, I’d really gotten to a point where I loved the sport over soccer or football or basketball. I loved all sports but hockey was the one that mined all of those together, for me anyway. So I moved to this last organization and was able to make their traveling team. That’s when things really took off for me.

John: That’s awesome, and that’s an interesting perspective of how hockey is a combination of a lot of different sports. It’s something I never thought of before, but you’re totally right. You just throw it on ice because might well make it hard.

Jim: That’s right.

John: Type of thing. Yeah. That’s awesome. So then the travel team and, like you said, really started to take off. You’re a big dude. It’s not often that hockey guys, maybe back in the day, well it’s not even back in the day, but Chris Pronger, I remember as being just a huge dude too. Were you starting to grow then or did the growth spurt happen later on?

Jim: I was big from the beginning, as far as my peers. Definitely when I got into sports, I was bigger than most people at an early age. I would say if you compared me now, where I was then, the kids now, I’m probably average-sized for professional athletes, but back then —

John: Oh, wow.

Jim: — 6’4” at 220, I was a big person for hockey.

John: For sure. You were able to play in college in… Where did you go to school?

Jim: I got a scholarship to play in upstate New York at a place called Clarkson University, near Lake Placid, north of Cornell, north of Colgate.

John: Lake Placid, that’s where the Miracle — right? The Miracle on Ice?

Jim: It was.

John: Yeah. See, I watched the movie. No, I’m just kidding. Yeah, and then you played there. I think it’s just so awesome, drafted in the NHL. What was that like?

Jim: It was, for me, shocking actually because professional hockey was off the radar. I knew I was getting noticed, but I had no idea that I would be drafted. Back then, only the kids that were playing junior hockey in Canada were really — had their finger on the pulse of what teams are watching them and where are they ranked. There was no central scouting or anything like that. Basically, I was at home in the summer. I got a phone call and said, “Hey, you’ve been drafted 51st overall.”

John: Really? That’s awesome. That’s fantastic, man. 51st, yeah, that’s not chump change, that’s for sure. That’s incredible. You’re home. Your dad calls you in from moving the grass and says, “Hey, get in here.” That’s incredible, man.

Jim: I was working at a car — I was a car jockey, and I got a phone call from…

John: Yeah.

Jim: The guy who owned it was the father of one of the kids I was playing with or had played with in junior high school. He said, “Come in here, I’ve got a phone call. Take my office.” I’m thinking, what? What did I do wrong?

John: Right. Yeah. Totally. Then to find out you’re drafted. Then is it like, I’m done with school and I go play hockey now?

Jim: No. That’s why I went to school because I wanted an education. Had I really thought that that was 100% guarantee, I would have played major junior hockey for the Portland Winterhawks because they were the junior team in the Canadian leagues that had my rights. Back in that time, they were really a powerhouse team, so I would have gone there. My dad helped me see the light and went to school instead. So I stayed in school.

John: No, that works. Yeah. So then you graduated. What team did you go to be a part of their program?

Jim: Calgary had drafted me. When they drafted me, they were mediocre, a couple of years out of Atlanta, moved to Calgary and were struggling to make the class. By the time I turned pro, as Murphy’s Law would have it, they lost to Montreal in the finals that first year, so they became a powerhouse for the next ten years.

John: Yeah, yeah. So then you were probably on a minor league them then?

Jim: I was relegated to the minors, training camp. I played in Salt Lake City, training camp in Moncton, New Brunswick and then shipped off to Salt Lake City in the international league and played there for a year and decided I was in the right place, just the wrong time.

John: Right, right, but that’s such a cool experience. I would imagine that some of that carries over to now, your career has — do you feel there are any skills that you learned from, even professional hockey that carried over to your professional world now?

Jim: First, for me, the biggest principle is life skills and all-around life skills from team sports. I can’t stress to other people that have kids, how important it is to get your kids in any kind of team sports at a very young age because it just gives them these life skills that they’re going to take with them for the rest of their lives.

When you get into work, it’s a team. Everything is team-oriented. You have to be collaborative. You have to cooperate. You’ve got a boss that’s like your coach. You’ve got other people that act like the referees. You’ve got coworkers who are like your teammates. You may not like them, but you have to work together. You’ve got to pass the puck or pass the ball or collaborate on an assignment because you went over a customer or whatever. All of those skills you learned as a kid on team sports transfer to work. That’s the biggest principle I got from sports.

John: Yeah. I grew up playing sports, never hockey but mostly soccer, baseball and basketball and a little football. Not everyone can score the touchdown or hit the home run or whatever, but it takes all the moving parts to make that happen.

Jim: It does. Each part is important, and you learn that as a kid. As an adult, you get to look back and see, oh, yeah, I get it now. I now understand what the coach was talking about. Oh, now I get it because I’ve experienced bad calls from referees. Now I’m here in business, and I got a bad call from a regulatory agency or something like that. You get it. You have this perspective that helps you understand or at least step back and try to understand the other person’s point of view.

John: Yeah. The only difference now is there’s no penalty box or five for fighting type of thing.

John: You can’t just pull someone’s shirt over their head. Just like, what did you say, pull their shirt over their head and just… That’d be great. Chuck people into the wall while you’re walking down the hallway. Oh, didn’t see you, sorry, type of thing. No, but that’s such a great point. It’s cool that you’re able to see that translate over from playing as a kid to today. Is this something that — I mean, you still play now, right?

Jim: Yes, I still play now on a couple of men’s teams. Now we call it the NHL nighttime hockey league.

John: Oh, that’s awesome.

Jim: Otherwise referred to as the beer league.

John: There you go. That’s got an added degree of difficulty to all of it already type of thing. That’s pretty cool. In college we had a thing called, we called it wuss hockey. I forget, it was some acronym that it stood for, I’m sure. It was just basically people that could kind of ice skate but not really and had never played hockey before. All we needed was skates, any kind of gloves and a stick and a helmet, and the puck had to stay on the ground. We would go to the rink on campus where the real team played but at 11 pm or whatever.

Jim: Yeah.

John: Yeah. It was so funny because I was okay at skating forwards but outside of that. You’re on a breakaway and then all of a sudden the puck gets stuck. You’re like, oh. You can’t exactly just stop and go get it. You’ve got to do the big circle around. By then, everyone else has gotten there. It was hard because I’m sweating, but I’m freezing. It was quite an experience to play or try to play anyway. So, kudos, man. That’s really cool. Is this something you talk about at work?

Jim: It’s definitely a conversation point when I get hired places. It somehow gets out that So-and-So who’s working here was a professional athlete at some point in their career.

John: Yeah, I would imagine because it’s a cool thing. It differentiates you. You’re like, yeah, but I’m also good at accounting. Yeah, so was the last guy but whatever type of thing. I would imagine people probably want to talk about that more, a little bit more than the reports all the time.

Jim: Yeah. It’s a good icebreaker for a lot of things.

John: Is this something where coworkers come to games or even ask about games that you’re playing now?

Jim: Oh, they ask me about it but —

John: Or anything like that?

Jim: — certainly, the caliber of the hockey that I play now and the time of the day that I play now is not conducive to anybody coming to watch.

John: Right. That’s super funny. Yeah, it goes back to the night owl and the coffee for breakfast. I’m catching the theme here. How much do you feel it’s on an organization to encourage people to share that? Because it sounds like you’re at a place where that’s encouraged. Or how much is it on the individual to just create that circle in their little world?

Jim: I think it’s both. From a corporate standpoint, corporations need and should value a good work environment and a collaborative work environment. That means people sharing their experiences and appreciating others and so you need to be encouraged to share. From an individual perspective, it’s nice to hear about other people’s activities and their accomplishments or their interests because that’s what makes us unique and yet also brings us together when there’s commonality at the same time as contrast.

John: Yes. I love that. I love that. Yeah, because I would imagine that in the places you’ve worked, you are probably the only former professional athlete in the office, but that doesn’t mean that people still can’t relate to you. If anything, I found — I mean I was certainly the only one that did comedy when I worked in corporate, but I found that people almost gravitated towards me more because of that. I think that that’s a cool thing that you share that or that you at least talk about it or playing sports at all type of a thing. I feel like sometimes we think, oh, well I’m the only one. Well that’s more of a reason to share.

Jim: It is.

John: Is there anything else that LDX does to encourage this sharing or to break down the walls so people feel more inclined to learn about each other?

Jim: We started a couple of initiatives here at our office just outside Seattle, in Redmond. Because we’re an engineering design firm, so, accountants, engineers; we’re more introverted than extroverted when you look at the average on the curve. So, to facilitate that, we have barbecues every other month where we roll out the grill cook and everybody comes together in the conference room and eats their lunch together. Then every other month on the alternating months, we have what’s called Wicked Wednesdays which are really a social, 4:00. You can have a beer or a glass of wine and, again, just share your experiences, get together, know each other, feel more comfortable about each other.

Since I’ve been here just over two years now, it’s really helped in the environment, the office environment. I’ve seen the difference in the people that have been here for many, many years because we have a lot of long-term employees here, have really been receptive to it and say it’s made a huge difference in the atmosphere and morale.

John: Those are great examples of just getting people out of their office, out from behind their desk, out of their cubicles. Because for some reason we behave differently when we’re not in that setting and then that really just breaks down some of the barriers that people have in their minds to, well, I have to behave a certain way or I can’t talk about certain things or whatever in the office. We include our hobbies and passions in that list which is crazy but for some reason it’s in our minds. Those are great examples that everyone can do for sure, and it’s cool to hear the positive feedback from that and that it’s made a difference. That’s really cool.

At any point, did you ever think, hey, my hockey or the fact that I was in NHL, maybe I shouldn’t share that because people will think that I’m maybe not as good at accounting?

Jim: No, that never crossed my mind. I had been a little bit more social just because I’d been involved in team sports for so long. So it was never something that I felt was a hindrance or something that I shouldn’t talk about or that it detracted from other qualifications I have.

John: That’s great. It’s just sometimes that creeps in on people’s psyche I guess but, yeah, it’s I am who I am, take it or leave it type of thing. If anything, you mentioned all the team sports and all the different things that you’ve learned from playing hockey, if anything, that makes me better at accounting than others because I just have something else to bring to the table than just the debits and credits. That’s great, man.

Before we wrap this up, do you have any words of encouragement for anyone listening that thinks that maybe they’re the only ones that have a certain hobby or passion and maybe it doesn’t have anything to do with their jobs?

Jim: I would say open up, take a chance, share, and you’d be surprised at how much that facilitates relationships and conversations.

John: Yeah. I’ve never heard of a story where someone’s like, I shared that I like to play hockey and then I got fired the next day. No. That’s never happened. Or I shared with a client or… No, that’s never happened where bad things have happened. That’s awesome, man.

Well it’s only fair, since I started out the episode asking you rapid fire questions, to allow you to now be the host and let you rapid fire question me if you have a couple.

Jim: Sure. Favorite place to go down on vacation.

John: I guess two come to mind. One is Costa Rica. That place is amazing. Everyone’s so friendly. There’s jungle but also the beaches. Yeah, it was just a really cool place. The other one was Cape Town, South Africa was pretty awesome too. It has all the infrastructure of like a Western city for the most part, but it’s still got that raw Africa vibe to it. Just an hour away is amazing wine country like Sonoma or Napa here in the US or straight south is the Cape of Good Hope where the Atlantic Ocean curves around to go under. It’s just crazy down there. There are monkeys just around, baboons just hanging out down Cape of Good Hope. Yeah, it’s just a cool place.

Jim: So different from what we know here, right?

John: Exactly, exactly.

Jim: Favorite food.

John: Favorite food. I think ice cream is going to be high on that list if that counts as — I mean I guess it’s a food. I’m not sure it’s staple but, yeah, ice cream is definitely my favorite food for sure.

Jim: What was your most interesting conference or stand-up gig that stands out in your mind?

John: Oh, wow. That’s a really good question. So many, some that were really, really good and some that were terrible where you’re like, oh. I don’t know. Opening for Louie Anderson at the Borgata in Atlantic City.

Jim: Wow.

John: Was probably my first big — I mean it’s a thousand people. That was pretty huge. Then I opened for the band, Train, and that was in front of 3,000 people or so. That’s more than my hometown, which dawned on me as I’m walking on the stage. There are more people here than in my whole hometown.

Jim: You’re not supposed to think about that when you’re stepping on the stage.

John: Right. Also, there’s so many lights. They were so bright that I couldn’t see — I couldn’t even see the edge of the stage. They have it taped off. So I was just like, do not fall off because then I’d become Robin Williams. Hey, everybody, da-da. I was just like, oh, my gosh. Those were pretty awesome.

Then there’s also when I was newer and coming up. There was a bar show I did where these two guys wouldn’t stop playing pool right in front of where the stage was, and there was an NFL football play-off game on, and they wouldn’t turn the TVs off. People were like, “Hey, can you guys turn down the microphone because we’re trying to watch this football game.” You’re just like, what? This is crazy. All kinds, mostly from the comedy world. I’ve done it all, man. I’ve done it all. I’m sure, going back to your hockey days, you have similar stories where some are just amazing.

Jim: Yes.

John: You wish everyone was there to see, and some where you’re like, I don’t even know why I do this anymore. This is weird and all of them in between.

Thank you so much, Jim, for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”? This is really, really fun.

Jim: It has been my pleasure, really enjoyed it.

John: Awesome, yeah. Everyone listening, if you want to see some pictures of Jim on the ice or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the pictures and links are there, and while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 286 of What’s Your “And”? Follow-Up Friday Edition. This is John Garrett. Each Friday, I’m following up with a guest who had been on my show a few years ago to hear what’s new with their passions outside of work and also hear how this message might have impacted them since we last talked.

I’m so excited to let everyone know that my book is being published very soon. It’ll be available on Amazon and a few other websites. Check out whatsyourand.com for all the details or sign up for my exclusive list and you’ll be the first to know when it’s coming out.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes every Wednesday and Follow-up Fridays now. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this Follow-Up Friday is no different with my guest, Sammie Johannes. She’s an account manager with Xero out of Perth, Australia, and now she’s with me here today just a couple of days before your birthday. Sammie, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Sammie: Thanks for having me back, John.

John: Absolutely. I’m so excited, and Happy Birthday, early. Now everyone can tweet at you and send you emails and flood you with all of this happiness. Right?

Sammie: Thank you.

John: Who doesn’t need that? Absolutely. Absolutely. I mixed it up since the last time you were on. Episode 93, golly, that was so long ago. Good for you for being brave enough to talk to me then. Here we go. I do the rapid fire questions upfront now, so we’re going to have a little fun here. If you had to choose, Harry Potter or Game of Thrones?

Sammie: Harry Potter.

John: Okay. What’s a typical breakfast? Cereal? Okay. Do you prefer more hot or cold? Hot? All right. How about a favorite Disney character?

Sammie: Belle from Beauty and the Beast.

John: Oh, there you go. Good answer. There you go. How about more oceans or mountains?

Sammie: Oceans.

John: Yeah, yeah, I figured. Two more. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Sammie: Chocolate.

John: Ooh, solid. This is an important one, toilet paper roll, over or under?

Sammie: Over.

John: Over, okay. I wasn’t sure if in Australia you guys did the opposite like how your whatever — like the toilet water goes down the drain the opposite direction type of thing. I didn’t know if the toilet paper matched it. I wasn’t sure.

Sammie: No.

John: People are crazy down there too. Put it against the wall. I got it. That’s awesome. When we talked a couple of years ago, we were talking powerlifting and the competitions that you were starting to be a part of and how you got into that, which was super cool. Is that still something that you’re doing?

Sammie: Yeah, it is. It has been such a huge part of my life. Especially with moving states, 18 months ago, it was really great being able to have that community and people that I already knew. It made life so much easier when I moved because I had no support network.

John: That’s fantastic. It was kind of that powerlifting community was the first group that you gravitated to when you moved to Perth?

Sammie: Yes, so really, really grateful that I actually knew people through Instagram but, luckily, powerlifted.

John: Okay.

Sammie: So that made things a lot easier.

John: That’s great. So then the competitions that you’ve been a part of, and I know that there were some personal records going on, in between then when we last talked and now, for sure. You’re still doing those, obviously, out of Perth as well?

Sammie: Yeah. I moved into sanctioned competition, so being able to qualify for nationals and stuff like that, which I’ve been to three nationals since we last spoke.

John: Nice.

Sammie: For two different federations. The first one was in August 2018 and then I competed again for nationals after doing some other comps in between to qualify, did nationals in June last year and then another nationals for the other federation in August last year. In one of the federations, I’m ranked first in Australia. In the other one, I’m ranked about seventh or eighth.

John: What? That’s amazing. That’s so great. I would like to take credit since you were a guest on the podcast, like give you a little bong, but I believe it’s all you. It’s all you. That’s awesome. That is so awesome.

Sammie: Thank you. Yeah.

John: I mean number one, of course, is amazing, but seven or eight is still amazing. What the heck. That’s great.

Sammie: Yeah. The women I’m competing against in the federation that I’m ranked about eighth, they’ve been competing for years. They’re incredibly strong women. It’s really great actually getting the chance to compete with them. It just pushes you that little bit further, but also it’s just the experience. I think the experience is the most important thing and just showing, if you put the work in, this is where you can get to.

John: Yeah, and the inspiration because you can see someone that’s done it. It’s like, well, if they can do it, so can I. What’s the difference?

Sammie: Yeah, exactly.

John: Wow. That’s just super impressive because I feel a couple of years ago when we were talking, you were very new in the journey. You were doing more local competitions, and now it’s big national ranked type things. That’s fantastic.

Sammie: Yeah, it’s a completely different world. The difference between — even when you’re doing the junior or the local, getting into it, novice competitions as we call them, you’re still learning the rules because you have to follow the rules in the novice comp because you want to be going to sanctioned knowing how everything works, but the level of competition is completely different.

John: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I can imagine. What was it like, that first one, when you made that jump from local to national sort of a thing?

Sammie: It was a good six months prep with three months of lighter training and just dialing in technique and another three months of just really pushing it and seeing what I could do. Yeah, just completely different world. You approach it so differently. Something I try not to do now is know exactly what I’m going to hit at the comp. I give myself an idea of what I want to hit, but I don’t set my heart on a number because I know, for example, I’ve got a certain number in my head that I want to hit for dead lifts in the next year or so. What’s going through my head is like, okay, cool, I could have hit that a year ago, but I didn’t because I wasn’t strong enough. I’d also injured myself, and I was just trying really to push myself a little bit too hard.

So, my goal in comp day is to not only go out there and just beat my current records that I hold, like my personal records, but to just go out there and have fun because I was putting so much pressure on myself to be at that next level.

John: You could also self-limit. Because if in your brain, it’s — I mean for you, it’s much bigger numbers. For me, it’s, let’s say, 20 pounds. I hit the 20 pounds and I’m like, I’m done. It’s like, who knows, I could have done 40. You never know. You could self-limit at the same time. Also, you’re setting yourself up for potential failure because let’s say you do two pounds less than that, that’s still freaking great. You shouldn’t feel like a failure.

Sammie: Yeah. I’ve walked out of comps beating myself up. I had a couple of bad injuries last year. I actually snapped my rib bone off the cartilage.

John: Oh, my goodness. Youch.

Sammie: I didn’t know I’d done it because apparently my pain threshold is so high that I didn’t realize I’d done back in early January. It was only in middle of February, six weeks later, and I’m going, oh, training is not feeling good. I was having to get my friend to do my belt up for me around my waist because I had to hold my body in a certain position to be able to get the belt on because I was hurting so much. What that resulted in me having to do a really nasty weight cut to actually make weight when I shouldn’t have because I was carrying so much excess fluid from the injury.

John: Right. That’s exactly why I don’t do powerlifting right there. That’s exactly why. No, I’m just kidding. I’m joking. That’s got to be super hard then because when you’re injured — because it’s like, well, the competition is coming up, and you’ve got to get ready.

Sammie: I found out two weeks out before competing.

John: Wow.

Sammie: Yeah. So it was like, oh, crap, what am I doing? I’m like, well I’m not giving up the prep. Yeah, it was just not a good thing, but I PR’ed all my lifts on my second attempts. My third attempts were like, okay, we’ll see if I can do them. If I don’t, I don’t care if I fail them because I know that my body is not in a fit situation for me to be able to actually do them.

John: Yeah. You’ve got your personal record anyway, so everything else is gravy. Yeah, that’s impressive. So impressive and so cool to hear not only that you’re still doing it, but where you’re at now in the whole process, it’s just so cool. So cool. Is this something that the Xero team knows about, especially the group in Perth?

Sammie: Yes, they’ve been really supportive. When I was in prep, they were really understanding. It meant that I wasn’t drinking with the team on a Friday afternoon and stuff.

John: Right.

Sammie: Because we’d have team drinks at lunchtime on a Friday and, yeah, they’ve been really supportive. Actually, this time last year, I got up in front of the whole sales team here in Australia and told them about my story with, obviously, mental illness and eating disorder and how powerlifting helped turn my life around, that how everything that I’ve learned through powerlifting actually relates to what I do as an account manager in sales. I found that to be really interesting and just being given the opportunity to share it was incredible. So I’m really grateful that we have such a supportive team. Even Trent, our managing director here in Australia, every time I see him, he’s always like, “How are you going with your training?” which is such a human aspect which is something we obviously live and breathe at Xero as well.

John: That’s so fantastic. How did that come about, for you to be able to present to everyone, basically, your story? Is that something that happens regularly or something you brought up?

Sammie: We have like a sales team catch-up the day before we had our internal, the whole of Xero Australia conference last year. We’re going to try doing something a bit different. We’re going to get some of the sales team to come up and talk about a topic that they’re passionate about. They messaged me. I was only six months into my role at the time, and they’re like, “Hey, we know you’ve got a pretty cool story. Would you mind sharing it?” I’ve gone, okay, I’ll take the opportunity. It was a really empowering opportunity, I think, because it’s probably the first time that I’d actually gotten up and spoken about what I’ve been through since I was 11 and how it shaped my life and how I coped with it.

Because the scary thing about — I’m not sure if you’ve seen the statistics, but in Australia, you don’t actually know how many people in Australia, in the accounting and bookkeeping industry, including us in the tech space and accounting, actually live with mental illness. If we look at the study done in the UK, over 51% of the respondents who were surveyed by the Institute of Chartered Accountants England and Wales. This study was done back in about 2018, I think. It said that over 51% of them had some form of mental illness, whether it was depression, anxiety.

If you take those statistics and then you look at the population of the UK, look at the population of Australia and number of practitioners in the industry, we’ve got nearly 34,000 accounting and bookkeeping practices here in Australia. That’s quite a high number. If you look at the number of people that are affected, whether it’s themselves personally or someone they know, it’s really scary, but just raising the awareness and especially, it’s so important to be thinking about with every conversation you’re having.

John: Yeah. That’s awesome. It’s so cool to hear that you were able to present but that you wanted to, that you weren’t scared about, if I share this side of me, are they going to judge me or my powerlifting? Or are they going to judge me — you were inspired, quite the opposite. That’s so cool to hear, that real life example, because that’s what all of what I do is about, is — I mean a perfect example, if you didn’t have powerlifting, you would be a completely different person that would not be very effective at your job. You would be not a happy person.

Sammie: I’ve seen what’s happened when I — I injured myself September of last year, literally a week after I got back from Xero Con. We think it was a minor tear through one of the muscles in my hip, groin area called the Psoas, and it’s one of the major muscles. I felt it go pop when I was squatting. It was minimal weight, less than 50% of my max, and I felt a pop and suddenly lost feeling from my hip all the way through to my foot. It was like I had pins and needles. I was walking around and couldn’t really feel my leg. That affected my training for — God, it affected it probably until January, and it was just like not being able to really train properly really affected my mental health. It affected me at work. I was struggling to function a bit. I was not myself.

John: Yeah. It’s understandable.

Sammie: Powerlifting is cheaper than a therapist is what I say.

John: You’re right, and probably more effective.

Sammie: Yeah, because in a bad headspace, you can just go and lift some weights and train. Often I find that I come out a lot more clear-minded when I do that than when I’ve spoken to a psychologist and I come out of there just questioning everything.

John: Right.

Sammie: I find that, in some cases, for me, more detrimental to go and speak to a psychologist than it is for me to just go lift some weights or something or go walk for a walk.

John: Right. Yeah. That’s something I definitely remember we covered in the first episode. It was so powerful to hear. I know that the couple of times we’ve hung out, which has been fun, when you were in the US and stuff, was really fun. Yeah, and it’s just so encouraging to hear that Xero created that space for people to share their passions. I’m sure the other people that got up and spoke, I’m sure you remember them, top of mind, a lot easier than just all the other salespeople that are at Xero.

Sammie: Well I think our sales team in Australia is about 100 people, across the different account managers and partner consultants. Those of us that work directly with the partners to implement Xero and stuff like that, we’ll on board them onto Xero. We have, yeah, not a huge team, but it’s not a small team either. It’s nice because you do know basically everyone by name.

John: Yeah, and then you get to know what their “And” is, if you will, the powerlifting and the other stuff that people like to do. That’s so cool to hear because that just makes work better. I know where you were before when we talked last time, a couple of years ago. It was the same way there, just a little bit smaller, I guess, but still that same culture that was there. You’ve been really lucky. Or maybe it’s you. Maybe you’re the magic person that brings it all, type of thing.

Sammie: Who knows? I guess the concept, bringing your authentic self to work, bringing that real human element, I think if you don’t bring that, you won’t be successful. You’ll be constantly feeling like you’re guarding yourself. You won’t be able to build rapport with your, in my case, my colleagues or the partners I look after. You’ve got to bring it. If you don’t, you won’t have that rapport. You won’t be successful.

John: Right, yeah, because anyone can talk about the accounting side of it or the technical side of it, but to actually create that relationship that goes somewhere, take things to another level, you have to step outside that. Yeah, it’s a little bit scary sometimes, but you’re proof positive that the benefits far outweigh whatever that fear is.

Sammie: Yeah.

John: That’s awesome. This has been so great, Sammie, catching up. Man, I’m just excited for you. It’s just awesome, awesome to hear. It’s only fair that I allow you to be the host of the show now since I so rudely rapid fire questioned you at the beginning. This is now the Sammie Johannes Show, and you could question me now. Here we go.

Sammie: Cool. Apples or oranges?

John: Oh, yeah. I’m going to go apples. Apples for sure, Honeycrisp or Jonagold. Jonagold apples here in the US are really good too. I’m a little bit of a — yeah, anything but Red Delicious is, it’s false advertising. I’m not even sure they’re red because they’re definitely not delicious, so it might as well not even be red.

Sammie: I agree with you on that. Running or hiking.

John: Oh, gosh. Hiking. Yeah. I look like I should be a runner, but I am not. That’s probably one of the most frustrating things about being 6’3’’ and skinny. It’s like, “Oh, you must be a runner.” No. I’ve got 100 other things to do besides run. Yeah, I’m not a good example for that.

Sammie: Cats or dogs.

John: Dogs. Hands down, dogs. We actually have a terrier mix. His name is Rocket. He’s awesome. He’s like 35 pounds of — yeah, he’s just hilarious and super fun. He’s great. Yeah, dogs all the way, for sure. This has been so much fun, Sammie. Thanks so much for joining me again and taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Sammie: That’s alright. Thanks for having me.

John: Absolutely. Everyone, if you want to see some pictures of Sammie in action or connect with her on social media, I’m telling you, her posts are amazing, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there, and while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing to the podcast on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 285 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. Each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And” those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiates you when you’re at work.

I’m so excited to let everyone know that my book’s being published in just a few weeks. It’ll be available on Amazon and a few other websites. Check out whatsyourand.com for all the details. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s listening to the show and changing the culture where they work because of it, and this book will really help to spread that message.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. This week is no different with my guest, Gail Perry. She’s the editor-in-chief of CPA Practice Advisor Magazine and a CPA with her own tax practice who’s also written 34 books. If she had written mine, it’d be out by now, but now she’s with me here today. Gail, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Gail: Thanks, John. I really appreciate you having me on the show, and I’m looking forward to having a chat with you.

John: Absolutely. It was so fun meeting you in person at the ITA Conference a couple of years ago and glad that we were able to make this happen. You know the drill, 17 rapid fire questions. Get to know Gail in a new level. Here we go. Easy one at first, favorite color.

Gail: I think I would say yellow because it’s really happy.

John: Okay. All right. How about a least favorite color?

Gail: Maybe white because it’s pretty boring.

John: Okay. I see you. I see you. How about chocolate or vanilla?

Gail: I’m afraid it’s vanilla.

John: No, that’s good.

Gail: Not a fan of chocolate.

John: Okay, okay. How about pens or pencils?

Gail: Oh, my God. So, I can only write with a certain type of pen and a certain type of pencil. For pencil, it’s the Pentel 0.5 millimeter, the thinnest of the lead; and for pens, it’s the Pilot. It’s called the Better Ballpoint. It’s a fine tip, and you can’t get it in stores anymore, so I have to buy it by the case.

John: Oh, my goodness. That’s awesome. I love how particular you are. That’s fantastic. Now people know what to get you for Christmas.

Gail: Exactly.

John: So there you go, a case of pens. How about puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

Gail: Oh, I love them both. Sudoku if I’m in a hurry. Crossword if I have some time to take.

John: Yeah, I could see where you’re the writer and the tax person. You’re a little bit both. Yeah. You should just both hands. I’ve got the right hand, Sudoku, left hand… How about more early bird or night owl?

Gail: Totally night owl. If I have to do something at 6 or 7 in the morning, I just stay up for it.

John: That’s awesome. So great. Okay, this one might be tricky. Star Wars or Star Trek.

Gail: Trek.

John: Okay. All right. How about your computer, more PC or Mac? PC. Yeah, me too. How about your mouse, right click or left click?

Gail: Left click.

John: Okay. Making decisions, I like that. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Gail: Oh, well we did the chocolate-vanilla thing already. I don’t like things in my ice cream, so vanilla — yeah.

John: Oh, so just plain vanilla.

Gail: Yeah.

John: Okay. Yeah, we are the opposite. I want all of the calories. I want to chew it.

Gail: Load it up.

John: Which is weird. Yeah, yeah. How about what’s a typical breakfast?

Gail: V8 juice and —

John: Okay.

Gail: A hard-boiled egg.

John: Oh, nice.

Gail: Yeah. Or a bowl of potato chips and a bottle of root beer.

John: Okay. Now we’re being honest. There we go. There we go. This will be fun, balance sheet or income statement.

Gail: Oh, income statement all the way. I’m a tax person, so you are what you spend. I got to see the income and expenses.

John: There you go. How about cats or dogs?

Gail: Dog. 100% dog. My dog can eat your cat.

John: All right. What kind of dog do you have?

Gail: She’s a golden retriever actually. She doesn’t eat any other animals, but she has a scary bark.

John: Right. Then she just rolls over and lets you pet her belly.

Gail: Exactly.

John: How about a favorite number?

Gail: Four.

John: Four. Is there a reason?

Gail: There is, yeah. It’s movie-related. The very first movie I ever went to with a boy, I saved the ticket stub. I don’t have it still, but for a long time, I saved the ticket stub. You know ticket stubs have six numbers on them that mean nothing. I averaged those numbers because that’s also the accountant in me.

John: Right.

Gail: The average came to four.

John: Wow. That’s truly amazing.

Gail: It’s the weirdest story ever.

John: No, no. There’s always a fun reason of why they’re favorite numbers. Some people, it’s like, “It’s my birthday.” I’m like, that might be the best reason ever I just heard. How about least favorite vegetable?

Gail: Well, I have legume allergies, so I actually can’t eat peas and lentils and chickpeas, all that stuff, no hummus. I would say they’re my least favorite because I actually don’t even know what they taste like.

John: It’s hard to argue that. That’s a legitimate answer right there. How about more diamonds or pearls?

Gail: I think pearls.

John: Pearls, okay. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Gail: A favorite thing I own, I think, would be my flute.

John: Oh, okay.

Gail: I went to college as a Music major before all this other stuff happened.

John: Wow. Who could tell? Look at this. I had no idea. Do you still play?

Gail: I do some, but it’s been a while.

John: No, exactly. I used to play trombone in a marching band in college as well. However, walked or marched and played at the same time is beyond me. Also just your mouth and the muscles near your lips and everything, they’re shot when you stop playing regularly.

Gail: Marching band was great though. When I went to Indiana University, and they didn’t allow girls in the marching band when I was there, so I just — the little bit of rebel in me that I have, every fall when they would have marching band tryouts, I would show up.

John: Right.

Gail: And make them listen to me even though I knew I couldn’t be in the band.

John: Wow, that is so wild. Wow. Yeah. I mean they probably had no flutes.

Gail: No, they did not. They had piccolos. I was happy to play a piccolo too, but they wouldn’t let me in.

John: Right. Wow, that is crazy. All right. Also, I love the movie reference with the movie tickets.

Gail: Yeah.

John: Averaging out all the numbers. People didn’t even notice there were numbers on the tickets. Yeah. So, let’s talk movies. I remember at the ITA Conference, going around the room, and you were like, movies. I was like, what? That’s incredible. Did you grow up going to movies a lot? Or what drew you to this?

Gail: I did grow up going to movies a lot. I grew up in a Chicago suburb, Oak Park, where there were, I think it was five movie theaters within walking distance of where I lived. Walking distance was between one and two miles, but you can walk that far when you’re little.

John: Right.

Gail: And movies were super cheap when I was a kid, so we always saw all the movies, my friends and I. Anytime — it was an era where everybody played outside. You said goodbye to your mom after breakfast, and you ate lunch wherever you were playing at lunchtime, and then you came home for dinner. On rainy days, we’d either camp at somebody’s house and read books, or we’d go to the movie theater.

John: Nice. Yeah. Especially growing up at a Chicago suburb like that where you had access to so many theaters, then, yeah, you’re able to go and see so many. Were there some of the movies that you grew up watching that were some of your favorites?

Gail: I loved that blockbuster stuff, the big David Lean movies, Bridge Over the River Kwai. I loved Lawrence of Arabia and just the big screen spectacles that are larger than life. I think great movies should be larger than life.

John: Yeah. Because some of them, yeah, even I watched and I’m like, well, the end, you’re like, really? Did that just — what just happened? We could have just hung out and watch the wall and talk to each other.

Gail: Yeah, I know. I like movies that you have to see on a big screen.

John: Yeah, I could see that. That’s cool. So then, obviously, as you grew up and now in adult life, still big in the movies. Are you still going to theaters? Or is it more Netflix, Amazon, all that other — Hulu, whatever else is out there online, or a little of both?

Gail: It’s everything. I still, I love movie theaters. You can’t change that movie theater experience, just seeing a movie in a dark theater with the smell of popcorn and strangers all around you and hearing their reactions to the scenes. I remember when The Sting came out. I went with a girlfriend of mine. The Sting, if you recall, has some big surprises at the end, and the audience reactions were, including ours, were so like, oh, my God. I’m sure it wasn’t the first time I sat through a movie more than once, but we just turned to each other and said, “We need to sit through this again just to see another new audience and watch their reaction.”

John: Right. Once you know what’s going to happen and get their reaction.

Gail: Yeah.

John: That does add to the experience, for sure.

Gail: Yeah. So having the people there — and that’s not to say I don’t like a theater that’s all mine if I go to a theater especially on a Tuesday afternoon and I’m the only one there. I have a rule about that. My daughter and I came up with this rule that if we go in the theater, there’s usually music playing, if there’s nobody else there, you have to dance.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so good. So if it’s like you and two or three people but it’s your group.

Gail: Well, yeah, that’s my group then we all have to dance.

John: As soon as someone else walks in then it’s like, I didn’t see anything.

Gail: Yeah, exactly.

John: That’s super fun. That just makes it an experience, which I think is a lot of what’s missing nowadays when a lot of things are just two dimensional. You go to the theater and that surround sound all the way around you and plus the audience, and you’re in it together. You’re experiencing a movie as opposed to watching it.

Gail: Then if you have the great opportunity to go to one of the classic movie palaces, then it’s just a completely new experience. You think of the history of that theater. Because they don’t build them like that anymore, but just beautiful theaters that are ornate and housed generations and generations of people seeing incredible films, that’s a great experience.

John: Right. Is this something that you go to, to visit on purpose, or if you’re just in an area, you check it out?

Gail: I will make trips to movie theaters. It’s kind of a bucket list item because I love road trips, and I love classic movie theaters. There are books about all the classic theaters that are still in existence. So, yeah, that would be a dream trip, to just go around and visit all the ones that were built 100 years or so ago.

John: Right. Yeah. I mean just to think of all that, or even maybe the Marx Brothers came through, to do a performance.

Gail: I can’t believe you said that.

John: Things like that.

Gail: The Marx Brothers became the Marx Brothers — I mean they were brothers, and they were acting, but they took on the name, The Marx Brothers, at the theater my husband and I operated in Champagne, Illinois.

John: That’s incredible. I had no idea. Very cool. So then you guys operated a theater as well.

Gail: Yes. The theater was part of the old Orpheum vaudeville circuit. It’s the Orpheum Theater in Champagne, Illinois. When we took it over, we started learning the history of the theater because we were so entranced with this gorgeous place. When it was back in its vaudeville days, lots of — I mean all the Orpheum vaudeville stars came through there. One of the stories we learned was that The Marx Brothers performed there, and they decided, “Let’s call ourselves The Marx Brothers,” while they were there.

John: Wow. Yeah, in Champagne, Illinois, which is — yeah. Most people listening are like, I have no idea where that is. University of Illinois is there.

Gail: Yes.

John: I totally know where that is. Wow, what a small world. That’s super cool. Just the comedy side of me was Marx Brothers. That’s very cool. So then, yeah, when you run your own theater, then you can just watch them all.

Gail: You can watch them all. Yeah.

John: That’s so neat. So neat. Then obviously the writing, I can’t dismiss that. 34 books, you don’t do one accident. I mean doing one is hard enough. Does it become easier?

Gail: It does become easier, yeah. It’s still a challenge. Every time I start one, I think, oh, I’ve got this because I’ve written so many, but then I realize, oh, this is not easy. It’s easier than the first time was.

John: Yeah. Okay. All right. I think that the dovetails with the movies and story and all of this, and you’re growing up with that. Do you feel like that’s enhanced or impacted your writing side?

Gail: Absolutely. In fact, some of the things I write for CPA Practice Advisor are about movies.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Gail: Yeah.

John: But certainly there’s a creative side of you that’s not all black and white tax.

Gail: Absolutely. Yes. It started, so I went to school as a Music major. Here’s what happened. As a Music major at Indiana University, you couldn’t practice your instrument in the dormitories because you’d drive everyone else out of the dorm. So you had to go practice outside of the dorm. They had practice rooms around campus, and you reserved those rooms. You couldn’t just walk in.

As a freshman, I had last choice. The freshman always had the last choice in getting the room, so my practice time was like 8:00 at night, somewhere way across campus from where I lived which was really uncomfortable on several levels. Not only was it dark and in the winter it was cold, but also all my friends were ordering pizza and sitting around the dorm, doing their homework together and having a good time. Here I was, putting on a coat and trudging off in the dark to practice my flute. I became an enemy with my flute at that point because it was like the flute’s fault that I had to do this.

So after my freshman year, I decided I still wanted to do something creative. As a side note, during my freshman year, I had taken freshman English Composition which was a required course. My professor, who was one of my greatest inspirations, loved my writing, said, “You need to be doing this, and what you need is just lots of practice. Just stay comfortable and just keep pen on the paper, just keep yourself going.” This professor suggested, because every freshman on campus needed to take English Composition and 90% of them hated it, he said, “You could actually make a living doing ghostwriting for all these kids who have to do freshman Comp classes.”

John: Oh, wow. So it’s like you’re still in college forever.

Gail: Exactly.

John: That’s hilarious.

Gail: So I started doing this. I actually became the house writer for several fraternity houses on campus.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Gail: Who doesn’t want to write for fraternity boys? So I would write their compositions for them, and they pay me. That was great. That was a little side hustle when I was a freshman. So after freshman year of doing the late night practicing and stuff, I decided I wanted to have the fun in the dorms with my friends. I want homework that keeps me in the dorm, so why not just do this writing instead.

I wasn’t certain what I wanted to do with that, whether I wanted to go into Creative Writing or what, but Journalism seemed like a really good option because then I could write for the paper, or I could figure out what I want to write, and I could get a lot of practical skills. So I changed my major to Journalism and got to do my homework in the dorms which was important.

John: Right, and hang out. Yeah.

Gail: Yeah.

John: That’s an amazing story. That’s great that the professor’s like, “Yeah, yeah, go ghostwrite.”

Gail: Yeah. Go help these people cheat.

John: Right. That’s insane.

Gail: It is. Yeah.

John: That’s so funny.

Gail: It was wonderful.

John: Yeah. I mean now there’s the Internet, unfortunately, but, yeah, you could be a gazillionaire.

Gail: Exactly.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah. You got your writing chops in and writing all different kinds of topics, I’m sure, because everybody had them, which leads into obviously giving you a skill set that you bring to the office.
Gail: Well, and actually, there was an additional thing. My third year on campus, which later became known as my first junior year on campus.

John: Okay.

Gail: I needed to really make a living. Years ago, my dad had a business and when I was in high school, had taught me basic bookkeeping skills. So I figured I could actually get a job job doing this instead of just writing papers for the fraternity boys. So I did that. I started working as a bookkeeper and from then on until I graduated, which took six years because from then on, I couldn’t go full-time because I was working. Each semester, I’d see how many courses I could buy based on how much I had saved from bookkeeping, so I had three and half years of bookkeeping under my belt by the time I graduated with a degree in Journalism. So that was how they sort of met, those two pieces of me.

Then I got out of school. I decided I’ll do this some more, some bookkeeping because I already know how to do this as a job. Then I decided to go back to school and actually get a CPA. So I did that and put in my time at Deloitte in Chicago so I could get licensed and actually be a CPA. At this point I’m married, and I’m in Chicago. All I’m doing is going to movies when I’m not working for Deloitte. Married a movie buff, my husband and I were going to movies all the time, many times a week. We got to know some of the movie theater owners in the Chicago area because they saw us. “You were just here yesterday, weren’t you?”

John: Right.

Gail: So got to talking about what it takes to run a movie theater and it just sounded so cool. We thought, well, we’re kind of young, and we could do this. It may not take, but let’s just do it now because we’ll probably never going to get a chance again. My husband was teaching law school, so his schedule was kind of flexible. I decided I would quit my job and do full-time movie theater. We couldn’t get a theater in the Chicago area because the union is so tough up there. Unless you own several, you really can’t make it work.

His parents lived in Champagne, so we thought, let’s just go down there. There happened to be the Orpheum movie theater which was struggling. We talked to the owners of it and said, “You’re having trouble with this anyway, why don’t you just rent it to us?” They said, “Okay.” We knew nothing about anything about running a business except that we loved movies. So we went down that path. We did it for just over a year, but the thing is we ran a business. We ran every aspect of that business. I learned so much about small businesses and payroll and employees and cash flow and building maintenance and how to run a movie projector and all the stuff that goes with it.

That became part of my groundwork for going back into public accounting, and I could really talk on a different level to our clients because I’d been there. When I ultimately started going into writing, I wrote on a level that was conversational and plain English which means I wrote for dummies and I wrote for idiots because that’s where the voice is.

John: Right. Yeah. That’s where most of us are, to be honest. You use all these big fancy words, and now I’ve got to go to the dictionary and look it up, then come back and I forget what page I was on and all this. It’s easier for people to digest as well.

Gail: Mm-hmm.

John: Wow. What a fascinating story where, in several of these moments, it feels like absolute chaos. I don’t know which way is up from down and whatever. If you look back now, it’s almost an exact straight line.

Gail: I know. It seemed like a flow. Although some of the early books I wrote, got me out on book tours which was fun. I was on a book tour for The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Doing Your Income Taxes, and I was introduced as this CPA and then they brought me up onstage. I was speaking to an auditorium of people, and I started out by saying, it seems like if you look how I got here, that I just followed a lot of sharp turns that nothing actually goes together, but it actually is completely a flow. I’m not sure anyone could follow that path if they tried to do it on purpose.

John: Right.

Gail: But it all just, for one reason or another, it all just led completely to where I am now.

John: Yeah. It’s similar for me because people ask, “Well how do you get to where you’re — I don’t even know. I don’t even know how to tell you to do this. If you follow in my footsteps, it’s really hard so maybe don’t do that. But you had to go through that to get to where you are now, so it’s like, I don’t know. That’s so cool though and really awesome. Especially to hear how you’re able to take these things and make them more relatable to your clients, whether it’s talking about movies or it’s knowing how to run a small business like the movie theater or it’s writing in a way that people will actually understand.

Imagine a movie where everyone uses just giant words. That would be a terrible movie. I don’t think blockbusters use more than three-syllable words because you want to hear the story. You want to get in. If I’m too busy trying to digest the words then it takes too long to get the story. That’s awesome and so cool. So cool. Did you ever feel reluctant to share this side of you with clients or even when you were at Deloitte back in the day? Or was it, this is who I am, take it or leave it?

Gail: No. Especially at Deloitte, actually, I was pretty reluctant to share because most people who go through accounting school, they do four years of accounting school, which I didn’t do; they take the CPA exam, which I did do; they get into a firm like Deloitte, but they followed a certain path. They pretty much all followed the same path and so their experience is way different from mine.

I felt a little bit like I cheated because my Bachelor’s was in Journalism, then I went back to school. All I did was take accounting courses for a year and a summer and then I sat for the CPA exam. I didn’t go through the whole four-year curriculum that most of them did. Although I’d had experience bookkeeping and running a business, which most of them hadn’t, but I felt that I didn’t follow the right path, so I didn’t talk about my past much.

John: Yeah, yeah, or even just going to the movies or what movie you just saw or things like that. Yeah. Because you just feel like you don’t relate sort of a thing, but then at some point, that teeter-totter obviously tipped, or is it still something that you don’t share as much?

Gail: No, I share it all now. I don’t care.

John: Yeah, yeah.

Gail: It basically tipped when, after the movie theater, my husband and I decided to start a family. I decided I’d go back into public accounting, but I was able to get part-time jobs which, at the time, wasn’t as easy as it is now. I thought I can raise my kids and work part-time in accounting. Basically I worked tax seasons and then a little bit the rest of the year. Then I got into training people in the accounting firm because I was like one step ahead of them in terms of a lot of things. Also, I hadn’t mentioned this, but I had a minor in Computer Science when I was in college too because I just couldn’t resist.

John: Right, mine as well. Right?

Gail: Yeah. This was when computers were just coming in on the scene, so I could learn this stuff really fast because I knew how computers worked and then I could teach it. That’s how training started, and that evolved into writing because I was writing, I mean writing technical stuff because I was writing the training manuals for my classes.

Eventually, I decided I really wanted to be home with my kids. I could take this writing and make it a thing. That’s what I did. I left public accounting and went to full-time writing which turned into accounting journalism. At the beginning that was just writing books. I’d write two or three a year and do some editing. I wrote a column for the Indianapolis newspaper, so I had money coming in from a variety of different sources. It was a splotchy period, but I was doing it from home before being home was cool.

John: Right.

Gail: It was great. It worked out well.

John: Yeah, that’s fascinating. That’s really fascinating. I think we are reluctant at first to share those outside of work sides of us. Why do you think that is? If you would have met a stranger out and about or at a bar or coffee shop and they would have said, “Oh, what do you like to do,” you would have talked movies. No problem. But then you’re in a Deloitte office or you’re in an accounting whatever, for some reason we don’t want to do that, even to this day, a lot of people.

Gail: Yeah. It’s a little bit cutthroat. There’s that. I at least had a feeling nobody else was going to movies, three or four nights a week.

John: Well, certainly. Yeah. I don’t think anyone goes to movies like — but even once a month.

Gail: Yeah, exactly.

John: Even then they weren’t —

Gail: One of the great parts about operating a movie theater was that all my movie expenses were deductible.

John: Totally. Exactly. Because even if you add up, well we’re going to make less money; yeah, but we’re also going to spend less. We can add that, in theory, to our income and be like, wow, we are making so much money.

Gail: Right.

John: Because you’re not spending three to four days a week buying tickets.

Gail: Yeah. I felt a little bit of this is not serious accounting business, so I kept my personal life to myself when I was working there.

John: Yeah, yeah, but then now that you do share, do you find that it gives you a unique relationship with people or something else to talk about?

Gail: Definitely something else to talk about, yeah.

John: Because that’s what I found too, is it seems like most of the people that are on here, once they do start sharing, they’re like, wow, I wish I had done this sooner. Because people light up, and especially movies. It’s like, wow. Who hates — I’m not even sure if there are people that hate movies. People may be just indifferent or whatever.

Gail: There are people who hate to sit through a movie. There are people who hate movie theaters.

John: Those people are evil, evil people you don’t want to be around. I’m just kidding. I’m kidding.

Gail: I just don’t understand them.

John: Right. Exactly. It’s like, what? It’s probably those weirdos that like chunks in their ice cream. That’s who it is.

Gail: Something like that, yeah.

John: Right, right. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe has a hobby or a passion that they feel like has nothing to do with their job?

Gail: For me, it was almost like in my life, I’ve been sitting in a little boat going down a stream, and I let the current take me. I just think rather than trying to force yourself into a position, just go with the flow. That’s very cliché, but for me that’s worked really well. When opportunities come, I assess them. If it seems like it’s good, even if it’s not a direction I saw myself going in, I’m not afraid to take those chances.

John: Yeah, and it clearly — some of those are driven by your outside of work hobbies and passions and then some of it’s dovetailing with the hobbies and passions, with your job or just in some way not letting that side of you go. That’s what I think is really interesting through all of this is that your relationship with accounting was in and out, hot and cold, if you will, but your relationships with movies and writing was always there. At no point did you ever stop going to movies. I think that that’s really important for us to take away is that these passions and interests are with us through everything. That’s awesome.

Before I wrap this up, it’s only fair that I allow you to now become the host and rapid fire question me since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning. So I’ll let you fire away.

Gail: All right. Do you have a favorite movie or a few favorite movies? If so, why are they your favorites?

John: Well, I went to college in the Jim Carrey, Adam Sandler, David Spade, Chris Farley heyday, so, Ace Venture, Dumb and Dumber, and Tommy Boy, just those movies that are like, you can turn it on and laugh within the first two minutes. It’s kind of an escape. On the flip side, I really do like Good Will Hunting, I thought was a really great movie and really deep, and some of those movies that just make you think about things a little bit differently on the flip side. I like super, super shallow and then super, super deep, I guess. I want to be taken somewhere, moved somewhere, in the end. Some of those movies where, you watch it, and I’m like, is there a second half, what happened type of thing. Are we where we first started? This is an hour and a half. I’m not getting that, those kind of thing. Of course, Rudy. I graduated from Notre Dame.

Gail: Oh, yeah.

John: If I even just hear the music, I will start to cry. It’s just like I’m just a baby when it comes to that too. Yeah, a lot of those sports movies, man, I will cry at all of them.

Gail: I love feel-good sports movies. That’s a great genre.

John: So that’s where I’m at.

Gail: One more question. We’re, of course, on behalf of our audience, so I’ll just share the fact that we’re recording this in the time of Coronavirus, so my question is, what are you streaming?

John: Oh, that’s interesting. My wife and I are watching Billions. It’s on Showtime but through stream, catching up on that because we never, never watched that. Yeah, that’s pretty much it and then just movies here and there I guess. It’s hard though because you’ve either seen it or they just took it away or whatever. You’re like, oh, no, type of thing. Where, had we not been going through all of this, then never would have known. Great question. Really great question.

Thank you so much, Gail, for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”? This is super fun.

Gail: Super fun. Thanks for having me.

John: Absolutely. Everyone, if you want to see some pictures of Gail outside of work or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there, and while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.