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Welcome to Episode 521 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work.

And super cool, Michael Puck was a guest on the show. He’s a dog photography. It’s his “and.” And he’s teamed up with other dog photographers to have globaldogart.com. You could check it out. Research has confirmed that pictures of dogs increase our well-being, reduced stress, foster social connections. So maybe that’s for your home, maybe it’s for your home office, maybe it’s for your office. But check out globaldogart.com. All the proceeds, 100% of the proceeds go to save 1 million dogs by 2030. So check that out, globaldogart.com.

And don’t forget to check out my book. What’s Your “And”? You can go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there for the podcast guests as well as links for the book. And don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Bianca Mueller. She’s the community manager for Wagepoint. You’ll see her at CPB Ignite and Wage Fest coming up. And now, she’s with me here today. Bianca, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Bianca: Thanks for having me. I’m super excited.

John: Oh, this is gonna be so much fun despite how you sounded.

Bianca: Are you ready for me? That’s what I wanna know.

John: Unleash. I’ve met you before. We’ve hung out at a conference before. Like I want the real Bianca coming out here. This is gonna be great. And I have some questions that I didn’t ask you when we did hang out and I probably should have.

Bianca: Let’s ask them for the greater public. Shall we?

John: Right. Here we go. I actually crowdsource these, so they’re what everyone wants to know. I’m kidding. They’re just my— The look on your eyes is like “Oh, no!”

Bianca: I love it. I’m transparent. Let’s go. Fire away.

John: Yeah, here we go. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Bianca: Ooh, Star Wars.

John: Okay. All right. Seemed close though. All right. How about your computer? Are you more PC or Mac?

Bianca: 100% PC. My son has problems with his iPhone and I’m lost.

John: Right? Oh, I’m the same. I’m not cool enough for any of that stuff. Oh, this is a fun one. Toilet paper roll over or under?

Bianca: Oh, like that’s my only OCD. It’s definitely has to be over. I switch it at strangers houses and in public bathrooms.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so good. And I will tell you, you are not alone because there are so many people that have been on the podcast that are the same as you. For sure. I had one person even say it’s over. And if you don’t think so, this conversation is over also.

Bianca: Ouch.

John: That was great. How about a favorite animal? Any animal?

Bianca: Oh, Tiger. I have actually have a little story. My family, we did this big road trip down to San Diego. I live on the West Coast in Vancouver. And the only thing I purchased on that whole trip when I was about 14 was this huge poster from the San Diego Zoo of a big like snow tiger.

John: Oh, yeah!

Bianca: And my parents had to cart this in the car and not dent it.

John: Not dent it. Yeah, oh, totally.

Bianca: Yeah. That was hanging on my wall until I was at like 25. I took that with me to my first apartment and everything.

John: That’s so good. So good. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Bianca: Ooh, Sudoku and jigsaw for sure.

John: Oh, okay. All right. So, a little bit of both.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: A jigsaw puzzles of tigers.

Bianca: Ooh, that would be fun. I should put that on my Amazon gift list or whatever.

John: Right? There we go. How about a favorite color?

Bianca: Ooh, pink.

John: Pink. Nice. There you go. How about a least favorite color?

Bianca: Brown.

John: Brown. Yeah. The least of the least popular. Yeah. That’s brown. Yeah. How about more talk or text?

Bianca: Oh, it depends on the time of day and who it is actually. I’m a talker for sure. Anyone knows me knows I don’t shut up, but I will text all day long if I feel like you don’t have time to talk to me. I’ll just text you and yeah.

John: Right. ‘Cause then I’m able to still talk to you even though you’re busy like with something else. Like I’m still getting at you. So there you go. All right. All right. How about a favorite cereal as adult, as a kid, whatever? Favorite cereal.

Bianca: Granola.

John: Granola! Okay.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: All right.

Bianca: I love granola.

John: There you go. That works. I anticipated something wild and crazy. And you come at me with granola. I’m like “Ah, good to know.” I learned something new here. And since you have the bookkeeping background, balance sheet or income statement?

Bianca: Ooh, balance sheet all day long. All day long. Because, you know, it’s interesting you say that because if you’re a sole proprietor, like your income statement’s the only thing you really think about.

But like in the backend, your bookkeepers got the balance sheet going. So it’s like this hidden like, I don’t know, star that needs to— It needs to add up. It’s what makes everything add up.

John: Yeah. It’s hard to hide stuff there. Yeah, that’s for sure. Very good. How about— Ooh, in Canada, this might be a fun one. Summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Bianca: I’m spring. I do really like the crisp air coming in the fall. Like fall is beautiful here. Like September. I love September in British Columbia. But I appreciate the warmer temperatures.

John: Right? We’re getting out of it. Like coming out of winter. It’s like, yeah, not going into it.

Bianca: Spring. And also, my birthday is in the spring, so it’s another reason to celebrate.

John: Done. Hello? I just moved mine from fall to spring just because of that. There we go. How about a favorite number?

Bianca: 4?

John: 4? Okay. Is there a reason or just—

Bianca: No. Because everyone else picks 3. I don’t think—

John: One better than you.

Bianca: I feel like I can’t do odd numbers very well. I don’t know. There might be something there. Little neuro divergence.

John: Okay. Even number. 4 specifically. I like it. That works. That’s a fun number. How about when it comes to books? Audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Bianca: Ooh, e-Book. I’m a digital girl. I’m a digital first mindset.

John: Okay. You’re taking it all the way through. All the way through. I like it. How about a favorite actor or a favorite actress?

Bianca: Oh, I really like Charlize Theron.

John: Oh yeah!

Bianca: Yeah.

John: Yeah. She’s in a lot of good stuff too. Yeah. Really good actress.

Bianca: She just has such a range of characters she can play. It’s pretty amazing.

John: Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. Two more. Heels or flats?

Bianca: Well, this might be a good segue into what I wanted to talk about because I used to love heels, but I can’t wear them anymore because I have bad knees.

John: Oh, okay. Which we’ll get to in the contact sports part of Bianca’s life. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Bianca: Oh, probably my cat or even my air fryer. I’m like slow down.

John: Oh, man.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: Air fryer. Solid. What kind of air fryer do you have?

Bianca: A really big one. Like the biggest one I could buy.

John: Okay. There you go. I actually pulled out my stove and put it in air— No, I’m just kidding.

Bianca: You know, my biggest thing though that I appreciate the most every day is the fact that I have 6 king size pillows on my bed.

John: 6?

Bianca: I was like “Oh, my God, I don’t know how people sleep flat.” Flat is like not my thing.

John: That is impressive. Yeah.

Bianca: It’s like clouds.

John: That is very impressive.

Bianca: It’s like clouds.

John: Yeah. I’ll take all of those answers as favorite things. And they’re all different. Your cat, air fryer, king size pillows. Amen. All of those things. I’m a big fan. So let’s talk the contact sports and I guess maybe if they’re not looking at you peopling and just being up on everybody. If you’re not looking, you’re gonna get whacked.

Bianca: Yeah. Bianca, the boxing bookkeeper, that was what people used to call me.

John: That’s so great. Like how cool is that? I mean, how many bookkeepers have that much of an identity to where people— and the alliteration of it all? The BBB, I love it.

Bianca: Yeah. My nickname is Bee. Busy Bee to Be.

John: Right. So you’re just all over. I’m glad I didn’t ask you favorite letter ’cause it was clear it’s B, but like how did you get into, you know, I guess boxing maybe to begin with, but then contact sports all around?

Bianca: Well, it actually started with martial arts when I was much younger. I think my mom and dad were just like “This girl has too much energy for us. She needs to go somewhere else for a few hours a day.”

John: Yes.

Bianca: That was one of those. Let’s just put it that way. So I did. I went into martial arts. And I did martial arts on and off my whole life, but really got into it seriously when I was an early teen. I can’t even remember. Maybe 13. And I got really well. And I actually got up to my brown belt. Through the years, I’d done various styles. Shotokan, Aikido, Muay Thai, Pankration. I also wrestled provincially through high school. I was one of the only girls on the wrestling team. And because of the grappling martial arts experience, I had excelled really well and sort of dominated grade 12 when I was competing. And it was so fun. And yeah.

So then, in my after high school teenage years, 18-19, I got into doing Muay Thai, and I loved it. It was like the most invigorating sport ever. Not only was I my most fittest. Like it’s very, very physically demanding, but like you push yourself mentally and physically to your limit every day. And that’s kind of how I roll. I need to be like—

John: All in.

Bianca: I sleep well at night.

John: Like totally metal.

Bianca: I don’t have a problem sleeping.

John: Right? We just run red all the time. Just like max it out. AND is that sort of like MMA?

Bianca: Yeah. So that’s like the precursor to MMA. It was like the Muay Thai, Pankration, all that stuff and yeah.

And then, you know, I was a powerhouse kicker. Like that was my thing. I was like “Look what I can do.” And I’d kick everything and I’d kick over all my friends’ heads at barbecues and bars. That was me. It was terrible. Bad idea.

John: Yeah. ‘Cause you can jump and kick. And they’re “What?!”

Bianca: It was a bad idea though because I ended up with a really bad knees. And you know, my doctor’s like “Oh, it’s arthritis. It’s arthritis. Just push through it. You’ll be fine.” But I couldn’t. It got so painful that I ended up in my 20s having to be like “No, I can’t do this anymore.” So that was kind of lame. But that’s sort of also when like life just got real for me. I was like I don’t have time for all this fun stuff. I need to get career driven. I need to get all these things, and then marriage, and then kids, and all of those— Life caught up.

John: Yeah.

Bianca: And then when I was 40, I’m like I really missed that. I missed that.

John: Interesting.

Bianca: So how can I do martial arts without kicking? ‘Cause I thought kicking my knees. I was like boxing. Boxing is totally the segue to me getting back in shape and back into my competitive spirit and nature. But yeah, it actually backfired. So then, I’m boxing. I won a couple fights. And I’m in Vegas in a fight in Vegas at the Hard Rock Hotel.

John: How great is that?

Bianca: It was like super amateur, not professional.

John: But still.

Bianca: But still.

John: Who cares?

Bianca: Full contact.

John: Like that’s great.

Bianca: I’ll send you a picture. But I blew my ACL like 30 seconds into the fight, so that sucked, but it was still an amazing experience. And I ended up having a few years of reconstructive knee surgeries, a couple of them, and had a little bit of trouble healing. But I’m now all healed and my next journey is to sort of get back into martial arts. Not competitively fighting anymore, but just actively for my mental and physical.

John: Yeah. But that’s so interesting. Or even just watching it. I mean I’m sure watching boxing, watching that. Like you can’t do it anymore maybe, but you can watch it or you can do a scaled down version of like what you’re talking about.

Bianca: I just love the intensity of hitting things. That sounds bad. This can easily be taken out of context.

John: No, no, not at all. Not at all. I mean, that’s why I go to the driving range. It’s just like “Wham!” I mean, I just grab my driver. I don’t use it. It’s just like “You know what? It’s been a day, and I just need a bucket, and I’m just gonna hit these things as hard as I can.”

Bianca: Yeah.

John: ‘Cause if I don’t hit the golf balls, it’s gonna be someone else. It’s gonna be like a person.

Bianca: It’s super invigorating. Yeah. I love it.

John: Yeah, totally. But I think it’s really interesting how life gets in the way and then that’s the first thing that we put on the backburner, is our “and.” But then later in life, you’re like “You know what? No, no, no, I need this.”

Bianca: Is that what’s called a midlife crisis?

John: No, not at all. It’s actually like being human because the human part of us is the first thing we put on in the backburner and then your soul starts to speak up with “Hey, remember us? Like we’re human.”

Bianca: We’re gonna do things for you.

John: Yeah. Amen. And so, was there a difference when you were transitioning back into? Like did it play out into work some?

Bianca: Yeah. I mean, I was nicknamed The Jugular for a reason.

John: Okay. Okay.

Bianca: I’m just like it’s straight to the point.

John: Here we go.

Bianca: Like super focused. Eye on the end of the prize. And I put in all the work and I work full speed ahead at everything I do all the time. And it’s like I literally attribute that exact skill from my martial arts to work. Like it’s still how I function. And it’s like there’s always a result. There’s a process. And I push myself like every day to my limit. I don’t know how good that is, but that’s how I function.

John: But that’s in your DNA. That’s who you are. And you’re exercising that muscle outside of work. So then, when you need to use it at work, then you’re like “Well I got this, that’s no problem.” You know, somebody like me doesn’t have that, so yeah.

Bianca: The amount of focus that it takes to stay on task, especially like in a fight or in a martial arts scenario, and even the meditation components that come with martial arts really, really, really helps in my professional life as well for sure.

John: That’s awesome. And no one at any point in your education, or training, or anything tells you, you know, go do martial arts ’cause it will make you a better professional.

Bianca: No.

John: But it clearly does.

Bianca: Yeah. Absolutely.

John: It clearly does.

Bianca: And it allows me to conquer so many fears because, like you say, it’s a contact sport. It’s one on one. If I don’t step up to my best face every day or my best ability, then guess what’s gonna happen? Bianca’s gonna get a black eye.

John: Yeah, it’s your jugular that time. No, somebody’s gonna get a black eye like “Oh, man.” That’s brutal.

Bianca: It doesn’t mean that I’m so much harder on myself though when like things don’t go as planned. And I’m working on that. That’s the shadow work that I’m doing in my 40s for sure.

John: There you go. Okay. Okay. Fair enough. But it is something that you talk about. I mean, people knew you as Bianca, the boxing bookkeeper. I mean, now that you’re with Wagepoint as a community manager, like it’s slightly different roles or job, technical skills, obviously totally different, but the “and” is still there with you. So it is something that you do share—

Bianca: Yeah.

John: …at work.

Bianca: It is. Absolutely. People love hearing the stories. And I think the “and” is the energy. I bring the same level of energy to everything that I do. And the intention behind what I’m doing and what I’m accomplishing, I bring that to everything that I do. And the people that are around me, whether it’s family, friends, or community, or industry, they all feel, and see, and understand that about me because it comes across very authentically or at least that is me. So I don’t try to suppress that part of me at all. And anyone you talk to in the industry is gonna be like “Yup, that’s Bianca.”

John: Well, good, because I mean, #1, they remember you. So you don’t just fall into the mix of everyone else. But two, if they didn’t know your “and”, then you would just be like super aggressive lady, but it’s like “Oh, no, no. She’s a boxer. She’s like kickboxing. No, no, that’s just who she is. That’s what she does.” Like if I didn’t know that part of you, I would have been like “Woah, she’s like super intense.” Then you find that side out of her.

Bianca: People often ask and they’re like “Do you have a whole bunch of brothers?” And I’m like “Actually, I do have two brothers, but I’m probably the most masculine one of them.” I didn’t have to stick up for myself. Like they literally had to protect themselves.

John: Right? That’s the thing. And if they say otherwise, I will give them the black eye. Here it is.

Bianca: You know, the apple didn’t fall far from the tree.

John: Yeah. I love how like there wasn’t a part of you that was like “Oh, people are gonna judge me for this.” Like it’s take it or leave it type of thing. A lot of times, we have these lies that we tell ourselves ’cause our brain is way not our friend.

Bianca: Yeah. Judgment is a very real thing, and I probably should care a little bit more. But but you know, my theory is if someone can find energy or their own voice in anything that I’m saying or doing ’cause everything like I say or do is full speed ahead, if I can affect one person’s life, then that’s all that matters because it really does help. You know, my person was my mom. And a lot of people in the bookkeeping and accounting industry know Diane Mueller. She’s a spear-header just like me. And she paved a really big trail for the accounting community and bookkeeping community in Canada. And I didn’t fall far from that tree like I said. Yeah.

John: No, that’s fantastic. I mean, it’s really great. And so, how much do you feel like it matters for an organization? You know, obviously, when you’re maybe a bookkeeper or you have a smaller company, of course you know each other on accident. But when you’re part of Wagepoint or other organizations, how much is it on the organization to create that space for you to have an “and” and share it versus how much is it on the individual to just kind of create that little circle in their peers?

Bianca: You know, it’s interesting you say that because as an extroverted bookkeeper, I’ve had software companies sort of interested in my energy for a while. And when the opportunity with Wagepoint came up, it was a no brainer because of the culture that Shrad has built within the company.

John: Nice.

Bianca: They promote everybody’s side hustles. There’s channels in there for everybody’s “ands.” It’s absolutely amazing. I wish there was more boxers, okay, ’cause Wagepoint is 100% cloud-based and always has been. So everybody works remotely. And the culture that Shrad’s built within Wagepoint and the different ways that we can all communicate and share our “ands” with each other and find our community of like-minded people within where we work is so amazing.

John: That’s so cool to hear like that they’ve cared about the human side from the beginning.

Bianca: It’s always been about the human side, and emotional intelligence plays a huge factor in that and how Shrad actually hires. So it’s pretty cool.

John: Oh, really? That’s interesting. Yeah. ‘Cause, I mean, you can’t teach that side of things as well as the technical skills are pretty easy to teach. That’s awesome. That’s so encouraging to hear, you know, that there are organizations out there that are like that ’cause it’s gotta feel good to be a part of a company that cares about the other dimensions to who Bianca is. Not just the work Bianca.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: You know, everything.

Bianca: And all the time, the conversations boil down to us as individuals, not what we bring to the table all the time. All the conversations with Shred. We just got back from a big work retreat. One of our customers, our wagepoint customers, has a summer camp, The Hollows in Ontario. So we booked it out and like 70 or 80 staff all went there. And we slept in the little bunk beds like we’re camp kids.

John: That’s so cool.

Bianca: We did adult summer camp, and it was so amazing. Like no shop talk. It was like there was a DJ and a mentalist, an illusionist.

We had entertainment. It was so much fun. And it was getting to know everybody’s aunt and it was encouraged. It was amazing.

John: That’s so great and such a simple thing and just brings people together. And especially, when you’re fully remote like that, you have to be super, super intentional with caring about people, but then getting in person matters even if it’s once a year or twice a year, or even if it’s in small groups. There’s so many like “I didn’t know you were this height, you know. Like on Zoom, it’s like all I see is this head.”

Bianca: We actually sat down. We’re like ” Who were our biggest surprises?” We’re like “I didn’t think that person was gonna be that tall” or like “I didn’t think that person was gonna be that cool.” Like we have this awesome guy in finance and everyone thought he was gonna be a bit stiff, but he was like the funnest person there.

John: Right? Right? Which is great. It’s like bring the summer camp you to work every day.

Bianca: Yes

John: Like this is great.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: So fantastic. I love it so much. Do you have any words of encouragement to people that feel like “Hey, I like to do martial arts or box” or whatever their and is, “but it has nothing to do with my job, so no one really cares, no one’s gonna care”? Like do you have words of encouragement to anyone listening?

Bianca: Well, yeah. And I think we actually just touched base on this and it’s like just do you. Stop fearing judgment. The judgment that people like fear how they’re gonna be received or if they’re gonna be misunderstood or misinterpreted is often the bottleneck that like stops people from authentically showing up as themself. And I show up authentically every day, even if it’s a bad day or a good day. Like you’re gonna know. And I think that that is hopefully spilled out a little bit into like even the people that I deal with every day.

And I know that my management, my team, we all show up authentically every day. And everyone that hires sort of feels that vibe, and it’s like the next person that comes on board sort of starts to slowly adapt to that same way. And it’s literally breeding this internal culture of amazingness, and you just need that one person to like understand and see you for who you are and make you feel welcome. And then it’s like sky’s the limit.

John: Yeah. It’s one of those things that’s so simple, but not easy, I guess, for most people for some reason. But yeah, it’s just care. Like have a genuine interest, you know. And, well, we don’t have a charge code for getting to know each other or whatever. We don’t get paid to socialize.

Bianca: Well, employers need to provide more safe spaces for that. In a real life work environment, office environment, people often go to the water cooler and just like, you know, they hang out there for a few extra minutes and see who stops by to have a little chit chat. So it looks like they’re still working, but you know, but they need a break, a mental break. Well, we have a slack channel called the water cooler. I mean, that’s a perfect example, and anybody can put anything there any time. Well, obviously, within like HR.

John: Right. HR doesn’t get flagged.

Bianca: Yeah.

John: We have a separate one for Bianca. Bianca has her own channel.

Bianca: Might be on the roadmap. We have a gardening channel, a wellness channel. You know, so many amazing things. A plant-based food and nutrition channel. And anyone can go in them at any time. There’s zero judgments on if one day you spend a little bit too much time in that channel chatting to people and the next thing—

John: Yeah.

Bianca: There’s no like micromanaging of time and I think that’s like super, super important as well.

John: Yeah, no, totally. It just takes the reins off of you that you can feel like, well, no, I can just be me.

Bianca: If you’re you, you’re gonna show up more creatively too.

John: Yeah. Amen. That’s so much better. So much more engaged. So much more everything. Well, this has been so much fun, Bianca. But before I get a black eye from saying something, I feel like it’s only fair that I turn the tables, make this the first episode of the Bianca Mueller Podcast.

Bianca: All right.

John: So thanks for having me on.

Bianca: All right. So you’re a speaker, you’re out there, you’re always like so engaging with public, but are you introverted or extroverted ’cause I can’t figure it out?

John: Oh, yeah. No, that’s a good question ’cause you are definitely the extrovert and I am very introverted. Very introverted. I think that’s surprising to probably everyone listening, but yeah, when I go somewhere, I’ll speak, I’ll talk to people after, but then, yeah, I don’t ever turn the TV on in my hotel room. I don’t even know if it has a TV half the time because I just need quiet. Just quiet to recharge and just all the stuff in my brain needs to be de-fragmented, I guess, like in the computer speak.

Bianca: Yeah, yeah.

John: Yeah. And just recharge that way.

Bianca: So you show up with your full energy whereas I leave talks filled with even more. It is the opposite. I think that’s how they define introverted and extroverted.

John: Right. And I leave drained because I’m giving so much of myself to each individual person in the room and I’m the opposite.

I’m giving so much that I’m just like just exhausted and drained at the end. Or even you’ll see me at any gathering, I’ll be in the corner with maybe one or two other people and then I will only talk to those two people the entire time. Like I will not talk to anyone new and especially if it’s a conference where I haven’t spoken yet, so then you don’t know what I do and then it becomes now I gotta tell you what I do and it’s let’s just talk about you and whatever your job is.

Bianca: I like it. This is all making sense now. What’s Your “And”? You wanna know about other people. You’re deflecting. I get it.

John: Yeah. What’s your “and?” Like let’s talk about that.

Bianca: No, I want to know about you. So I see. The audience can’t see, but I can see there’s some football memorabilia behind you on your shelf. What’s that about?

John: Notre Dame football helmet. Yeah, I graduated from Notre Dame and huge college football fan. That’s definitely one of my “ands”.

Bianca: Cool.

John: And then a football signed by Coach Holtz who wrote the foreword for my book, the Hall of Fame college football coach here in the US for Notre Dame. And yeah, so excited about that. But actually, the helmet is signed by the last coach. And so, it’s just mementos of things that bring me joy, and I think that’s important to have things that bring you joy around you so then you see them.

Bianca: Kinda like my pillows.

John: Yeah. Like king size pillows. You know what? Next time we talk, I might have 6 king size pillows stacked on my bookshelves back here. And you’ll be like “What? No, wait, what kind of pillows are those? What brand? What’s the stuffing made of?”

Bianca: The things that bring us comfort.

John: Exactly. Yeah. But I mean, at the very least, it makes me smile. Sit down. I’ve got a story for you.

Bianca: Do you put it on at parties?

John: I’ve put it on during Zoom calls, that’s for sure, before. Somebody’s like “Why don’t you just put on the—” “Okay, I’ll go put it on. I don’t care.”

Bianca: That’s awesome.

John: It’s fun.

Bianca: Very cool. Some fun facts about you.

John: Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you so much, Bianca, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? and just being awesome. So thank you for taking time to be a part of this.

Bianca: Thank you very much.

John: And everybody, if you wanna see some pictures of Bianca in action or connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. And like I said earlier, don’t forget, she’ll be at CPB Ignite as well as Wage Fest coming up very soon. And while you’re on that whatsyourand.com page, be sure and click the button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture and don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 517 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. It was so kind of The Independent Press Awards to name it a Distinguished Favorite. And the book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon, and more importantly changing the cultures where they work because of it. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Paul Jan Zdunek. He’s the COO of Miller Kaplan in Los Angeles and the author of Cowboys & Conductors: Conversations on Horseman-Humanship. And he’s with me here today. Paul, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Paul: Hey, John, great to be here. Thanks for having me.

John: Oh, man, this is gonna be so awesome. I’m super excited, but I have 17 rapid fire questions. Get to know Paul out of the gate here.

Paul: Hopefully, I won’t fail.

John: Right. This is gonna be the shortest episode ever. Like here we go. This is an easy one. Favorite color.

Paul: My favorite color is dark red and dark gold together. Kinda like the Italian red and golds. My whole house is fill with that.

John: Okay. All right. All right. That’s a little too close to USC for me, but we’ll keep going. How about a least favorite color?

Paul: Least favorite color is green.

John: Oh, okay. All right.

Paul: Especially like lime green, you know, like the pukey kind. Pukey green.

John: Right. Yeah, no, it’s a little too bright. How about you prefer more talk or text?

Paul: Talk for sure. Talk.

John: Yeah, just get it done. There we go. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Paul: You know, I love Robin Williams and Tom Hanks ’cause they have such a wide range of skills. They’re funny. They’re serious. And actually, one week, I started binging Tom Hanks movies ’cause they were so awesome.

John: I mean, that could go forever. I mean, that’s like they’re season so many. It’s unbelievable. Yeah. But you’re right. They’re both so good. So good. How about a favorite animal? Any animal at all?

Paul: Favorite animal. That’s a new one. Oh, geez. You know, the dog is always the favorite. They’re always so sweet. They need you, you know, easy.

John: Yeah. No, dogs are awesome. Absolutely. How about a favorite movie of all time?

Paul: You know, my favorite movie— Well, two of them actually. One is Birdcage, which is hilarious. Again, Robin Williams. Right? Totally awesome. The other one is Parental Guidance with Bette Midler and— Oh, I forget the— It will come to me. But also movie about, you know, sort of the new generation, and how parents are giving gold stars to everybody, and how Bette Midler kind of deals with that as a grandparent. So, awesome movie. I keep watching that over and over again. Hilarious.

John: That sounds awesome. Very cool. Very cool. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Paul: Star Wars for sure ’cause of the John Williams score. It’s just so fantastic. Both of them though, there’s been so many remakes. I can’t keep up. I like the first versions of all of that, but they’ve kind of gone off the deep end with the different remakes and so forth.

John: You’re right. I mean, John Williams definitely puts it over the top. I mean, yeah, he’s amazing. How about puzzles? Sodoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzle?

Paul: They all make me crazy. So, none.

John: None of the above. Perfect.

Paul: My wife does puzzles and I live through her.

John: Right. There you go. There you go. All right. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Paul: Definitely Mac just because, you know, used to spend so much time fixing or having bugs in the PC that it’s so nice to just like not worry about it. The firewall is done.

John: That’s hilarious. The propaganda that Apple has put out is still going strong. It’s awesome.

Paul: Exactly. Exactly.

John: It’s so awesome.

Paul: And it’s beautiful, and it’s beautiful.

John: They’re nice looking machines. That’s for sure. This is a good one. Toilet paper roll over or under?

Paul: You know, this is actually a serious issue with me. Over. Over. Under is impossible. It’s impossible. And you know what? Actually, my wife likes under and I like over, so we keep switching each other’s toilet papers.

John: Are you switching around?

Paul: That’s true. It’s a major issue for me. This is a major issue.

John: Amen, man. I’m with you on that one. For sure.

How about ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Paul: Cone for sure. Sugar cone, waffle cone. Waffle cone.

John: Ah, yeah, there you go.

Paul: If you go for it, you might as well go for it.

John: Yeah, you might as well go big.

Paul: Chocolate covered. Chocolate-covered waffle cones.

John: There we go. That seems to be one of the more popular. I’m a big fan of in the cup, but also with the cone. So then, yeah, you don’t lose any dripping around like yeah. Everybody wins on that one. This was a fun one somebody threw at me and I like bringing it back. Socks or shoes?

Paul: Oh, flip-flops and short socks. What are those? Like little ankle socks.

John: Oh, the little ankle socks with flip-flops. Okay.

Paul: No, no, no, no, no. One or the other.

John: Oh, one or the other. Okay. All right. Right. But flip-flops is probably the answer.

Paul: Yeah. The short socks are nice. Yeah. You know?

John: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But yeah. Okay. All right. Oh, this is a fun one. What’s a typical breakfast?

Paul: You know, I don’t eat breakfast because it makes me tired. I get sleepy. So if I eat breakfast, I’m usually taking a nap at 10 a.m., so it’s not good.

John: Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. There we go.

Paul: Coffee.

John: Coffee. Just straight coffee. All right.

Paul: That’s my preference. Yeah.

John: Okay. That works. How about a favorite number?

Paul: 7 because that’s my birthdate and it’s been lucky. I know it’s a favorite of a lot of people, but it’s always done me well.

John: It’s a good number. That’s for sure. We got three more. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Paul: Real. I like to feel it. I also like reading the real paper even though I have it on my phone. I like to be able to smell the ink on your hands.

John: Totally. I mean, it’s just, I guess, tradition. I don’t know. I’m just used to it more. I’m the same. Yeah, for sure. Two more. How about a favorite food?

Paul: Indian. I love Indian food.

John: Oh, okay.

Paul: Yeah. If I had to choose one forever and ever, it would be Indian for sure.

John: There you go. With some ice cream at the end.

Paul: Yeah, exactly.

John: Right. and then the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own. Like the house catches on fire, you go and grab or is there something cool or—

Paul: You know, it’s funny you ask it that way because I don’t have anything that I’m so tied to that I can’t do without, you know. Relationships, your mind, your mental, you know— my memory, I guess, is one favorite thing I own for now anyway.

John: Yeah. Right. Right. What’s left of it, right? No, no, that’s great. That’s an awesome answer. Absolutely. Your memory and your mind of course going along with that, so yeah. So let’s talk people watching, observing, what have you. Is this something that you got into recently or something you’ve been doing since you were younger?

Paul: Yeah. Ever since I was a kid— I grew up in Baltimore, so the inner city, and we had the famous white marble steps. We were on row homes where you can stretch your hands across and reach both walls and like you’re stacked next to each other. And it used to be the time where people actually sat on their steps or they called them in Baltimore stoops. They sat on their stoops. And I just go up and down the street when everyone was hanging out because we didn’t have air conditioning, we didn’t have the internet, we didn’t have Netflix. You know, like you actually went and talked to people, you know, sat outside and visited.

John: Was it uphill both ways on your street too?

Paul: I actually did live on a hill, so yeah. Yeah. Just like talk to people and figure out what made them tick. And that actually stuck with me the rest of my life. I mean, I love people watching. I’m to a point where I’m obsessed about it. Even going to a restaurant, my wife or whoever I’m with will be like “Hello! I’m over here.” And it’s like “Yeah, but do we know what’s going on behind us?”

John: Right? There’s like a whole sitcom happening.

Paul: Exactly. It’s fascinating.

John: That’s so cool. And I bet a lot of those people you still remember them because you do know what made them tick. You actually knew them as opposed to just “Hi, Ms. Johnson” or whatever.

Paul: Yeah. It’s people watching, but also understanding people. Right? So it is that deeper thing. And I think that had my life been a little different, I might have gone into sociology or psychology. But you know, I guess to your point also with your book and the and, it’s like maybe I don’t wanna do that as a career. Maybe I just like to do it on my own as a hobby so that it’s more fun and I don’t have to make money at it. I can just enjoy it.

John: Right. ‘Cause that is the thing. Trust me. I mean, when you make the leap to it’s your profession, it’s less enjoyable. I mean, you still enjoy it, but there’s some pressure now because you gotta pay the mortgage and all that stuff. And that’s awesome though. I mean, from when you were a kid and then growing up. I mean, now you’re in LA, which is— I mean that’s people watching heaven right there.

Paul: People watching Mecca.

John: Right. Right.

Paul: And yeah, I mean, ever since I was a kid, like you said, but then I also studied conducting and I was a conductor for about 10 years. And that people watching it, it’s not just people watching, but it’s really locking into who needs you, what their body language is, what they’re saying. You know? So really having that nuance of sound, of tone, of stature, of whatever and really locking into what people need at any given moment. I had to do that as a profession, you know, as sort of as part of the profession. And then as a consultant, a business consultant, do the same thing. You gotta come in and figure out what’s what, like who’s telling the lies, who’s telling the truth, who’s kind of making in between. And I still use it today as COO just to manage the team and manage individuals rather than say “Well, everyone’s the same. So, you know, this is how I’m gonna do it.”

And it’s, again, something that I did as a kid that I never thought about, but I use every day. And actually, you made me dig deeper and really realize how obsessed I am and how much I actually do it. I probably should see somebody about it, but—

John: Just see yourself. Right? No, I mean, I appreciate that, but yeah. But also then you not only understood how obsessed you are with it, but also how much you use it in your career as well because that’s the thing with the and. You know, it’s just something we do ’cause we enjoy it and then what takes someone to point out like or ask “Well, how does this play into your corporate career?” And it’s like “I didn’t think it— Oh, wait, it does actually. That’s pretty neat.” It’s just a cool little thing to step back and just realize that you’re not doing it because it enhances your career. It’s just a cool byproduct. And yeah, I could imagine. I mean, I was in the band all the way through college. And yeah, I mean, the conductor could see everything I was doing. Completely goofing around. I was a trombone player. So, of course, I was goofing around. It came with the instrument. I had to, but they could always tell. And it’s like “Ah, no matter how high I lifted my music stand, it’s like damn it.”

Paul: They knew you were reading magazines back there and not paying attention.

John: Right. They knew something like ” John, what are you doing? And I’m like “Ah, man! Like come on.” That’s so cool. And so, I guess do you have any like cooler, rewarding stories from, I guess, maybe growing up or some of the characters that you’ve met along your career or along your life from observing?

Paul: What I’ve taken away is that every person has got a story. Right? And that’s what makes it so fantastic. I think sometimes we think, well, you know, only really important people, or only celebrities, or only this or that are important or interesting. And this is actually kind of what drives me crazy about pop culture, right, because we all fixate on those one or two celebrities or the one who’s in the news now like Johnny Depp. It’s like there’s so many more interesting people in the world. And we often sort of dismiss like the person who checks you in at the hotel or whoever, but everyone’s got a story and everyone’s got sort of dysfunctional something or other that’s interesting. Right?

John: Yeah. I mean, good or bad, either way, it’s interesting.

Paul: Yeah. And so, I think if you have that kind of sense, then you’re not always looking for something. You’re luxuriating in the people that you’re meeting all the time.

John: Yeah. They’re all around us. And I mean, especially at work. I mean, you know, just asking simply what’s your and or what lights you up when you’re not at work. I mean, it’s amazing when I work with companies and speak at events. All of a sudden, it’s like I had no idea that all of this was around me and I’ve worked here for eight years. And you’re like “Well, get on it then.”

Paul: Yeah. And even, you know, at work as well as in interviews before they even come to your job. I mean, it’s funny. I was actually in a day of interviews today interviewing for some positions and he asked the regular questions. And at the end, I asked him a few fun questions like, you know, “Okay. So, outside of work, like what do you do for fun? Like what is your driver?” And all of a sudden, they’re almost like surprised. Like they relaxed. They’re surprised that I’m asking them about something personal that they actually enjoy, and it changes the dynamic right away. And then I also ask if they like hamburgers and how they build their favorite hamburger, you know.

John: Right. ‘Cause I’m 100% judging you for that.

Paul: Exactly. You’re gonna get this job based on what you put on that hamburger. But you know, it’s to see if they’re curious, creative, but yeah, the sort of the fun thing. Unfortunately, we don’t talk about that. Like we don’t talk about what we do in our personal life. I guess part of that is all the HR lawyers telling us we can’t ask this, we can’t ask that. Like we’ve gotten to such a point like we don’t wanna say anything ’cause we don’t wanna be taken to court over something we ask, which is unfortunate.

John: Yeah. But I love that during the interview ’cause cause then it’s, you know, I’m gonna be around this person more waking hours than my family. So I’d like to know who you are. And also, if you’re all work all the time, that’s a pretty big red flag because you’re gonna burn out and you’re not a real human. You’re not being honest with yourself. You’re not being honest with me. And yeah, I just don’t think this is gonna work, you know, type of thing.

Paul: Or if their favorite thing is throwing rocks at squirrels, that’s probably a red flag too.

John: Or there’s that. Yeah. There’s also that, or something illegal or taboo, or Skippy, but I love that you ask that, you know, because it matters. I mean, people have expertise that they get from their and that “Oh, that’s good to know. I’ll remember that.” You know, things like that. And that’s cool ’cause you’re hiring the whole person, not just the work part.

Paul: Yeah. I mean, you spend most of your life at work and so with the people that you’re working with. It’s almost like a best friend or a family. Well, maybe not family ’cause not every family wants to hang around each other all the time. But yeah, it is about the whole human being. And you know, people are what make businesses successful, not businesses, not the widgets that they sell, but it’s the people who are involved and their commitment to each other, their excitement of working together.

And yeah, I mean, I think culture is everything and it does come from within like who are you and then who are you in comparison to others who are working with you.

John: Collective. Yeah. No, I love that so much. So much. And I mean, that’s partially with Cowboys & Conductors.

Paul: Exactly.

John: I mean, you know, humanship, which I love that phrase. And if you wanna describe it to everybody listening.

Paul: Yeah. Well, the book is about how my colleague, co-author, Dustin, who’s a true American cowboy horse whisperer— how he works with horses because horses don’t say “Hey, I need some food”, or “Hey, I need this”, or “Hey, I need that.” You have to understand. You have to feel the nuance. You have to feel the body language. And you also have to be centered and present as well so that you can have that sort of unspoken dialogue going on. And that’s horsemanship, you know, to be able to do things with a horse without beating them, whipping them. And humanship is the same thing. You know, being present with each other, really trying to meet people where they are, understand the nuances of what makes them tick.

Not only like you said from professional, but the personal, the drivers, and locking into that and then understanding how you can let them sort of move about and move freely, but also empower them and really truly lock into their energy. But to do that, you have to be centered, and you have to have your own grounded energy and your own grounded framework. And that’s what the book is about. I mean, it’s really more about how do we live, and work, and operate in this world of gray. And so, you know, you can’t just kind of flail around and you can’t just sort of say “Well, this is the path. I’m going that way. To hell with everything else.”

John: Yeah. Not everything is black and white. Most things are gray like you said.

Paul: Exactly. Most things are gray, but you have to have some kind of framework, some kind of foundation. And then that’s what we have talked about in the book, which is gray leadership. You know, this gray leadership and there are ways that you can set a foundation just like you would a house. Right? You can build awesome 2 or 3 stories on top of this foundation, but the foundation is weak or the foundation crumbles, then it doesn’t matter how awesomely built the other floors are. And it’s the same thing with this gray leadership. Like if you can set a foundation and set a framework, then you can pile on anything on top of it, anything good or bad, and react in the moment, you know. And so, it’s that really just kind of being in the moment with people or with horses in Dustin’s case and locking into that natural energy.

John: Yeah. And just having a genuine interest in the people. You know, just care. I mean, it’s so simple, but not easy, I think, for people. I mean, in the same way that Dustin cares about the horses, like we should care about our people, and that’s amazing how much that’s hard or doesn’t happen.

Paul: We also tend to hang around and collect people as friends or colleagues who are like us. Like we just do that naturally as human beings. And so, you know, our point is why don’t you make a beeline for somebody at a party who is completely opposite of you, whatever that means, like a different profession, a different race, a different ethnicity, a different whatever, and go and talk to them. Right? And that’s what people keep saying is like “How did you guys meet? Like what is conductors and cowboys— I mean, what’s the connection?” It’s like “Right. There’s seemingly no connection, yet there is this completely deep connection because we decided to explore each other’s background and lives.”

John: Yeah. And if you’re having a hard time finding somebody, just ask Paul ’cause he’s already observed everyone at the party, and he will point you in the right direction.

Paul: ‘Cause that could be a part-time gig. Right?

John: That could be. Absolutely.

Paul: Cruise director for people.

John: It takes me to like the Love Boat type of scene, but that’s awesome, man. Like I love that philosophy and how it’s all in the same vein, in the same direction of What’s Your “And”? and it’s bringing human to work and operating in that kind of squishy gray area, like you said. So I love that you’re able to help people with that.

Paul: It is figuring out or at least asking about their and, right? We often go to a party or a meeting. It’s like “What do you do?” And what do you do is one thing. I mean, what do you do is so small in scope, but what are you, who are you, what is your and, what drives you, sort of that is so much more important. And you know, I’ve talked to a lot of CEOs of companies, especially like family companies where they’ve sort of ascended to the throne because of their father, or grandfather, or whatever grandmother. And they’re just like “Well, I’ve gotta take over this company ’cause that’s what we do. That’s who our family is.” And I asked them, you know, “What do you love to do? Like what drives you? Is it manufacturing? Do you like just love manufacturing?” He’s “Not really.” And that usually is tied to the failure of their company because they’re not excited about it.

So they’re not really putting the passion and time into it. And there’s a direct correlation to your point between the end and the bottom line. And we don’t think about it that way. We think this and thing is squishy and the gray leadership is— like that’s bluff. Talk to me about the numbers. You gotta talk about the squishy stuff. The squishy stuff will give you the hard stuff about the numbers. There’s the direct correlation that a lot of folks don’t understand or don’t want to believe.

John: I love that so much. And there’s a company that I was reading about recently. It’s called Perrin. It’s a company that’s like helping people see the skills that they get from different jobs even when they’re flipping burgers at McDonald’s, what that translates to in the future. But they refer to these as essential skills. They’re not soft skills. They’re essential skills because the hard skills, in about 10 years, the computer’s gonna do all of those. So the others actually become essential. And I love that. You know, just those essential skills that we all need to have. And yeah, it’s just awesome to hear that parallel ’cause everyone’s either ridden a horse, or seen a horse, or seen a horse movie, or something. The Kentucky Derby, I mean, they’re massive animals and they’re so just majestic. But to be able to tame them and to bring them in, it’s a really cool skillset to have, and humans aren’t much different as wild horses really.

Paul: Kind of what you said is how we have to reframe it. So it’s not about taming this wild beast. This beast is an awesome, fantastic beast just like humans are. Right? And so, when you beat a horse, when you kick it with your spurs, it eventually resigns and sort of stops, and do people. The more you micromanage people, the more you yell at them, there’s a point where they give up. And as opposed to giving them more responsibility, investing more into them, then they sort of on their own blossom, and so do horses. And so, it’s really so many times— and we think about this with relationships too. Like we think if we could just squeeze them and hold them tighter, then they’ll love us more, you know.

John: Right.

Paul: It just doesn’t work.

John: No, their heads pop off.

Paul: Right. Exactly. It doesn’t work that way.

John: Right.

Paul: So why do we keep trying to do that? Like let ’em go. Let ’em blossom. They’ll come back. It’s that saying like if you love something, set it free. If it comes back, you know, it was yours. If it doesn’t, it never was. And that’s a wise saying. And it’s the same kind of philosophy that you gotta let people move around. You know, horses, I found out that when they are fearful of something, they need to move their feet. Like they need to run away from it and then they’ll get to a safe distance and look back, okay, like what was that thing that scared me and then they’ll slowly come back and assess what’s going on. But if you try to hold them from running away, then they’ll kick, and bite, and could actually kill you right in the moment. Same thing with people.

John: Right.

Paul: You gotta let ’em run away. You gotta let ’em go off the deep end for a few days, few moments, and they’ll come back around because that’s how we operate. We need to sometimes just run away from the thing that scares us, but it doesn’t mean that you’re running away forever.

John: No, I love that and yeah. And just harness the talents and the skills and find the right channel to just go ’cause it’s amazing, if you’re able to do that, what can happen.

Paul: Yeah. It’s a trust thing. Right? And then that goes back to being centered yourself ’cause the people who micromanage feel like there’s some sort of insecurity that they have within themselves that they need to then micromanage others so that there’s a control and it just doesn’t work. It’s never worked. You know, I’m dealing with that all this week. It’s like managers who they feel like control is— And as long as I can see you working, then you’re doing a good job. But like if you’re working remotely or if I can’t see what you’re doing, then you obviously must not be working.

John: Even though the finished product is there, but, well, your Keebler elves might have done it. I don’t know. It’s like “Okay, like whatever.” That’s hilarious, man. Such good nuggets, man. Really, really great advice for people listening. Just rewind the last like 10 minutes, and re-listen, and put that into work at your work. Put that into action. So that’s awesome, man. Well, I feel like before wrapping this up, it’s only fair since I peppered you with questions at the beginning that maybe we turned the tables, make this the first episode of The Paul Jan Zdunek podcast. So I’m all yours, man.

Paul: Well, you started in accounting, right? And a lot of people— even I get this still today, it’s like accounting, they’re boring. They just keep their heads down. They’re just bean counters. But you know, obviously, you are not. And how did you make that leap from bean counting to standup comedy?

John: Yeah. Well, you know, it was just always— I was just me in all of the places even when I was at work.

You know, I still had a personality, still had a sense of humor. And when I would ask people in all the careers or even clients that I was visiting through PWC and what have you, it was like “What do you do”, and they’re like “Well, I take this spreadsheet.” “No, I know what that is. Like who are you? Like who else are you?” And it was just so cool to see all the people around us. And so, I was just doing comedy at night for fun. It was just a creative, fun hobby and just an outlet. And then I accidentally got good. And you know, the profession and I decided I should take my talents elsewhere. So then, I went comedy full time. But yeah, I mean, I don’t recommend people do it full time as your hobby ’cause you’re probably not that good at it because that’s why it’s a hobby.

Paul: Yeah. As we talked about earlier, I mean, did that hobby then start seeming like a burden because it was a career?

John: Very much. And so, you have to have an and, another and. You know, it was college football, ice cream, going to concerts. You know, all that’s been always a part of me, but comedy is one that I guess stood out more. But yeah, you have to have those outlets and those things where you’re able to turn your brain off, you’re able to do something, that pure joy. Like I try to tell people like when you talk about work, sometimes it’s fun, but sometimes it’s not. But when I’m talking about going to a concert, it’s always fun. Like it’s always fun. And you can tell when people are talking about their and. Like they light up, their eyes get bigger and yeah.

And certainly, I mean, I did plenty of comedy gigs like a bar at a bowling alley for 100 bucks ’cause, yeah, I need 100 bucks on a Wednesday or a bar where like a football game’s on on like Monday night football and they’re like “Hey, can you turn the comedy down ’cause we’re trying to listen to football?” I mean, just all kinds of stuff like where people are playing pool and they won’t stop playing pool. And it’s like, well, that’s kind of annoying when you’re telling jokes. I mean, all kinds of crazy. But I mean, of course, also really cool big shows and comedy clubs, but you have to work your way up.

Paul: So when people actually were listening to you, was there a moment that just like totally flopped like you’re like I gotta get outta here, that totally landed wrong?

John: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. All the time. Because if you’re not doing that, then you’re not pushing yourself. You know, if you’re playing safe and just doing only the stuff that works, well, then you’re not gonna grow, you know, and you’ll never get new material. And so, yeah. I mean, there’s certainly been plenty of times where I’ve just bombed and I’m just like—

Paul: How do you get out of it?

John: I mean, sometimes it’s fun to be like “Well, I thought that was hilarious. Nobody else— Okay.” You know? And then typically, once you get stronger, your miss is not as far off. Like you’re at least hitting the dart board now, but then you always have a really good joke right after it. So then, even if I lost him for 30 seconds or a minute, I’m gonna get you right back with this half marathon bit. So here we go.

Paul: You’ve gotta have an escape path, I guess, escape—

John: Yeah. Yeah. Or you just call it out and be like “Hey, you know, that was a new one. And apparently, I need to work on it.” Or it’s the other way around. And it’s like first show Friday laughed for about an hour on that joke. That’s on you guys. Like I don’t know what to tell you. You want me to tell it again? I’ll tell it again. Here we go. You know, like I’m just having fun with it type of thing. But yeah, I mean, certainly. Even when I lived in New York, I’ve seen Chris Rock and Gaffigan and, you know, people come in and Seinfeld. And you’re like “Oh man, everything…” No, they’re trying out new stuff. And you know, their miss is still pretty close to the bullseye, but it’s still like “What the hell is that?” You know? “Like I should write for you.” No. But you’re growing and that’s how you get more stuff.

Paul: Yeah. Awesome. Well, that’s a big deal to put yourself out there like that, you know. It’s not easy to do that because, you know, just like being a musician, people are judging you on you’re inside and not what you do. Right? It’s who you are as a person, what your emotions and your intellect. And it’s much more personal when things don’t go well and also much more personal when things go well. It’s euphoria, right?

John: Yeah. No, it really is ’cause you’re the product.

Paul: Yeah, exactly.

John: That’s what’s hard about it. Yeah, it’s not just “Oh, this pen is terrible.” It’s like No, you are terrible.” And it’s like “Wait, what? Like as a person? Ugh.”

Paul: That’s why people say as a musician, actor, comedian, whenever you’re doing something like that, if you don’t absolutely love it and if it’s not something you have to do, then don’t because the criticism personally will tear you down in a second.

John: Yeah. I mean, you dealt with that with your music side. And I mean, every single day, someone punches you in the face, every day, whether it’s an audience member, or it’s a booker, or it’s a comedy club manager, or it’s somebody telling you that you are not good enough. And so, you just have to have that inner fortitude, or that confidence, or enough good shows that you can go back and listen and be like “No, no, no, I am good enough. That’s just on you.”

This was hilarious. There was a comedy club that I was trying to get into. This was back in the day where you could burn your own DVD. So I burned my own DVD and I sent it along with here’s a list of all the comedy clubs I’ve done. And the guy watches, and he calls me, and he says “Hey, that accountant character you’re trying to do is very annoying.” And I’m like “That’s not a character, man. That’s just me.”

Paul: You’re very annoying.

John: Right? Exactly. And I was like “I’m not Larry, the cable guy, who’s not a cable guy at all.” He’s like an IT guy from Nebraska, but like that’s a character. This was me. Like I’m being me. And he’s telling me that that’s annoying. And it’s like “Well, I guess I’m not going to Cleveland.” It’s like “All right.” Yeah, man, it’s hard. It’s hard for sure. Well, this has been so great, Paul. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? Really, really awesome.

Paul: My pleasure. Hope to do it again.

John: Absolutely. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Paul outside of work, or maybe connect with him on social media, or get a copy of the book, Cowboys & Conductors: Conversations on Horseman-Humanship, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check Paul’s book like I said.

So thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use, and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 517 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And normally right now, I plug the award-winning book What’s Your “And”?, but I wanna take a moment to talk about globaldogart.com where all the proceeds go towards saving 1 million dogs by 2030. And did you know that research has shown that pictures of dogs increase our well-being, reduce stress, foster social connections, promote trusting relationships in business settings? And Michael Puck, who was a guest on the show, his and was dog photography. And his pictures are amazing. But now, he’s teamed up with other dog photographers all over the world for globaldogart.com. Check it out. Support someone’s “and” and help out a really great cause. And please don’t forget to subscribe with the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every weekend.

And this week is no different with my guest, Carolyn Ellis. She’s a trainer, coach, and author of the award-winning book, lead conversations that count how busy managers run great meetings. She’s out of Toronto, Canada. And now, she’s with me here today. Carolyn, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Carolyn: I am so looking forward to our conversation, John. Thanks for having me.

John: Me too. This is gonna be so much fun. And we’re friends outside of this, which is great. And I have 17 rapid fire questions that I probably should have asked you years ago when we first met, but now’s the time, so here we go. We’ll start— Maybe this is an easy one. I don’t know. Law and Order or Suits?

Carolyn: Oh, man. You know, I never got into either of them.

John: Oh, okay. All right. Fair enough. Suits was filmed in Toronto, so that’s why I thought it’d be a slam dunk.

Carolyn: I know. Well, you know, I’m a little over Meghan Markle a bit these days, so maybe that’s another issue.

John: Right. This was pre-royal Megan.

Carolyn: Exactly.

John: Yeah. It’s tainted now. Fair enough. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Carolyn: Absolutely Mac. Used to be a PC girl.

John: Wow. Okay.

Carolyn: Used to be and then it was just constantly updating right when I was in the middle of like major things. And I got an IT guy and switched over to Mac and, ugh, love it, love it, love it.

John: Wow. Good for you. Okay. How about more of a shower or bath?

Carolyn: Well, shower.

John: Yeah, just efficiency. Bam. There it is.

Carolyn: Also live in a house right now where I don’t have a bath, so that’s another factor.

John: Oh, that makes it easier.

Carolyn: But I do live across from Lake Ontario, so I could have a bath technically if I wanted to.

John: Oh, that’s amazing. Okay.

Carolyn: And I do sometimes. Yeah. Just wander on over there before dinner, have a quick bath in the lake.

John: Right. No, Lake Ontario is awesome.

Carolyn: Oh, it’s beautiful.

John: Yeah. So beautiful. I’m a huge ice cream junkie. So when you get ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Carolyn: Oh, it’s a tough one. I think there’s a lot of pressure when you’ve got it in a cone like that you don’t lose it or crack it. And I really like to get every single drop. So I’ve migrated to being a cup girl. I could just lick that spoon and just stick my whole snout in the cup.

John: Right. There it is. There it is. Totally. I agree 100%. How about a favorite animal? Like any animal.

Carolyn: Ooh, you know, dogs. I love dogs. I mean, we’re sharing about your friend Michael and what his dogs like— Scribble down that URL. I’m gonna go check it out. I’ve got a Golden Doodle and I’ve had dogs for years and years growing up. So they are amazing creatures.

John: Yeah. No they really, really are. I totally agree. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or a jigsaw puzzle?

Carolyn: I’m a big fan of jigsaw puzzles and I do them actually on my iPad.

John: Oh.

Carolyn: Yeah. There’s an app I use called Magic Puzzles, and it’s super fun because you don’t know what the picture is, and you can dial up. Do you want the pieces to move? Like you can rotate them. Do you wanna do like the 48-size version or do you wanna go for like the 500 little pieces? So you can dial up or down your level of difficulty, and it’s super fun.

John: You don’t even know the picture. That’s wild. Okay.

Carolyn: You don’t even know the picture. And then if you get really stuck, there’s a little magic button where you can say “How about you just like float 10 pieces into this corner here ’cause I’m just like really frustrated right now?” So I love that too.

John: I’m gonna throw my iPad if you don’t give me 10.

Carolyn: Yeah. As opposed to like just clearing the table of a real physical jigsaw puzzle.

John: Oh, that’s interesting. Very cool. How about a favorite color?

Carolyn: I love a lot of colors I’d say.

John: That’s fine. I’ll give you more than one.

Carolyn: I love vibrant colors. My favorite, I think right now I’m in the mood for are like teal. So think about like a Robin’s egg kind of color. And you know, again, this lake, man, sometimes it’s like a deep, deep blue or like a greeny blue, and I’m really vibing in that sort of blue green, teal-y zone.

John: Yeah. I love it. How about a least favorite color?

Carolyn: Oh, least favorite color I would say is the color of an old dog turd that’s on a sidewalk after a rainy day when somebody stepped in it with a newspaper. Like that kind of gray brown, mushy— Yeah, that color.

John: That is by far the least popular color. It’s amazing how much just brown or any version of brown comes out.

Carolyn: Brown. Like what was that? Yeah.

John: Not good.

Carolyn: Just walk around it.

John: That’s hilarious. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Carolyn: Favorite adult beverage. Oh, man. I just recently bought myself a cocktail book when I was visiting New York, and I’m not much of a mixologist, but I did recently get into Singapore slings, which is something that my parents, growing up at the cottage, all the adults used to get really snuckered with Singapore slings. I’m like “What was that drink?”

John: Yeah. I’ve never even heard of that.

Carolyn: Yeah. There’s a lot of ingredients, but very tasty. It goes down too smoothie.

John: There you go. That explains it. And there you go. Now, you’re the one getting snuckered and it’s all good.

Carolyn: Exactly. Just trying to honor my parents. Yes.

John: This one’s for you. No, totally. How about are you more talk or text?

Carolyn: I do both. I prefer talking ’cause I like the connection better. And also, sometimes texting is just— That damn autocorrect, you know, just gets me so many times. It’s like “No! Stupid.” So yeah, it kind of trips me up a bit.

John: That’s funny. How about— This one’s gonna be a hard one. Do you have a favorite actor or an actress?

Carolyn: I would say I really— like Emma Thompson lately, man.

John: Oh, yeah. Okay.

Carolyn: She’s so fantastic. And she’s been around for such a long time. She’s super funny. I, you know, have seen some of the old stuff that she used to do with like Hugh Laurie. Like she’s just so wildly talented. And then her latest movie, I dunno if you’ve seen it yet, it was Good Luck to You, Leo Grande, about this older woman’s—

John: I haven’t seen it yet. No.

Carolyn: Oh, such a great performance. I mean, it’s a great film. It’s a great story, but she just really went for it. And she can play serious. She can play crazy and manic.

John: Yeah. The Cruella de Vil movie proved it.

Carolyn: Oh, her Cruella was— How she was in that movie was just amazing.

John: She’s on Fallon doing the rap battles and stuff. Like she’s so good.

Carolyn: She just goes all in.

John: Yeah.

Carolyn: Yeah.

John: Really good.

Carolyn: She’s like no holds barred. I really admire that in her.

John: Yeah, totally. No, great answer. Totally. Are you more heels or flats?

Carolyn: Well, my osteoarthritis in my left foot has determined that heels are out of my shelf. Like I cannot do that anymore. So flats are fine. I’m a tall girl. So I’m 5 feet 10. So I’ve spent a lot of time trying to unlearn the slouching I developed as a teenager to try to fit in with everybody else. So yeah, I’m more on the flats side.

John: Nice. Okay. Okay. Fair enough. How about season, summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Carolyn: I love them all, you know, and I love the transition. I love it when you wake up on a summer day and you’re like “Ooh, I’m smelling fall.” It’s just got that Christmas in the air. I live in a part of the country where we have colors changing and the trees go. And I love me a good winter crisp walk with the dog on the beach. Awesome.

John: All right. All of them. Just in case they’re listening, none of them are left out and they’re all—

Carolyn: No. I did mention spring, which is when I was born ’cause that’s usually a bit of a mixed bag. It’s like that’s when a lot of that brown stuff shows up on the sidewalk or leftover after the winter snow.

John: Also, it’s like so short in Canada ’cause it’s like winter—

Carolyn: And then all of a sudden, like “Oh, you’re in summer now.” And the flowers are going like “Hey, what? Already?”

John: Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Carolyn: Bye.

John: Right. Yeah. No, I can totally see that. How about you have a favorite number?

Carolyn: My favorite number is 4.

John: Okay. Is there a reason?

Carolyn: And I don’t know why. I grew up my sister, and I, and my parents. So there was like always a four. And there’s just something kind of interesting about 4 for me.

John: Yeah. No. That makes sense. Totally. How about least favorite vegetable?

Carolyn: Least favorite vegetable. Ooh, I’ve been doing so good on getting my veggies.

John: I’ve done like 47.

Carolyn: You do, ei?

John: No. Probably three I can think of right now off the top of my head.

Carolyn: Gosh. You know, I would have to say I was gonna put Brussel sprouts in there, but I’ve learned to really love Brussel sprouts roasted with a little balsamic on it.

John: Yeah. You gotta do some work, but they’ll get there.

Carolyn: You know what? I’d have to say like really, really bitter greens.

John: Ah, yeah. Okay.

Carolyn: I need me some soft sauce up in there with the arugula just to break up that bitterness a little bit. So I don’t hate it, but it’s like that—

John: Yeah. No. I agree. Totally. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Carolyn: Oh, I love me a real book ’cause I’m very kinesthetic like I like to have a pen in my hand, but I get too many of them. So I’m trying to be a little more minimalist and then I’ve been going a little bit more e-Book, but I find I don’t remember them as well. You know, that’s the problem. And thankfully, Amazon will remind me. It’s like “You’ve already purchased this book in 2019. ” It’s like “Really? Dang! I should go read it then.”

So still working that out.

John: Yeah. ‘Cause they’re stored up in the cloud and you haven’t downloaded it to the device yet, so you forget that you have it.

Carolyn: Yeah. It’s not like you can flip through the pages and see how many treasures I have yet to read.

John: What does it look like? Yeah, exactly.

Carolyn: Exactly.

John: And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Carolyn: The favorite thing I have, it’s not like a possession, but it’s a patio in the place that I live right now. It’s a deck and I look across the street and then there’s like a green boulevard. There’s the boardwalk, there’s the beach, and there’s the Lake. So I can literally see, you know, Oh my gosh, there are white cups.” I’ll be on my couch in my living room’s like just checking out. It’s so great. You know, I just love having that kind of like nature’s— like living right in it. Even though I live in a really big city, it feels like I’m up in cottage country and I’m like in a huge urban city.

John: Right. That’s fantastic. So let’s talk musical theater.

Carolyn: Yeah.

John: How did you get started with that? Was it something that you like grew up doing or was it more later in life?

Carolyn: It was something that I grew up always wanting to do, but I was always really intrigued in high school with like plays and things. I was like “Oh, that would be so much fun”, but I would always chicken out. So I would do stage makeup for the theater or I’d play my flute in the pit band.

John: Oh, okay.

Carolyn: I’d get close, but I always kind of hover around the periphery.

John: Right.

Carolyn: And then like when I was in like my 40s, my kids were getting older and stuff, my chiropractor was like “Oh, you should come to see this musical I’m in.” I’m like “Wait, what? Like an old dude, like you can be in a musical? Like tell me more.” And so, he introduced me to his musical director who, a couple years later, she started and it was basically formed by a bunch of adults who were sitting in the hallway of some gym watching their kids have a great time with her doing their musical theater stuff. And they’re like “Why can’t we do this?” So that’s what we are. We’re just a bunch of middle-aged and older people who some have had some experience, most of us have had very little except for singing in the van, and yeah. So I’ve been with this group for about 6-7 years, 6-7 productions. One of the joys is my daughter is also in the cast and she’s like one of the most talented people in the whole— Like she just raises the level of leadership up in all of us.

John: Okay.

Carolyn: Yeah, it was something that I always like wanted to do, but just kept saying “Nah, you’re not good enough. Nah, you don’t know how to dance. No, you don’t know how to sing.” So just saying no and then just finally saying “Well, what if I tried it?” And it was like “Oh, my God, I love this.”

John: Yeah. That’s so fantastic. So it’s like one show a year kind of idea?

Carolyn: One show a year. We do one show a year. So usually, of course, the pandemic has messed all of this up. So we’re just waiting to see when we can get back on track. But usually, we start rehearsals sort of end of September-October, performance 3 days. And it’s all for charity as well. So we raised money to support art space programming for kids in remote communities in Northern Canada and also in Africa. And so, we perform end of January. 3 nights usually sold out. So it feels good. And it’s always a process like, you know, “Am I gonna learn my lines? Like I don’t know how to do the choreography.” And any time you’re in a group with like 25 to 30 people doing something and it sort of feels a little pressurized, especially now with the pandemic, you know, we look back and like we’re so lucky to do this. I mean, we just get to be like goofball kids and just discover things about what you can do and like the kind of joy that you can have in your life. And it’s okay. Like you deserve to have some fun too.

John: Yeah, no, I love that. That’s so fantastic. Do you have a show that you’ve done that’s been one of your favorites or a role that you had?

Carolyn: Well, I think one of my most challenging and most favorite roles was in my most recent production. We were doing a bit of a mashup between like Robin Hood and Monty Python’s search for the Holy Grail. It was a bit of a mash up there. So I played a character of Rapunzel ’cause, of course, we had to have nursery rhyme characters in there as well. I was Rapunzel and I was also Rumpelstiltskin. So I had to puppeteer like an Avenue Q kind of puppet. So he was my husband. And so, you know, different voice. And I think the highlight for me was singing Do You Love Me as a duet from Fiddler on the Roof.

John: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. That will mess with your brain a little bit.

Carolyn: Yeah. It’s like chewing gum, patting your stomach, walking and, you know—

John: ‘Cause you have to do the puppet and both voices.

Carolyn: Yeah. And then your reaction to the puppet and then the puppet singing. And your face is supposed to be reacting differently. So it was a lot of fun. It was so great.

John: That sounds like a blast. And what a cool mashup. I mean, it reminds me of like Albert Brooks had like the Robin Hood movie back in the ’90s. You know, that was a hilarious movie and then to throw in also all these hilarious stuff is right up my alley. That sounds like so much fun.

Carolyn: It was very zany, very zany.

John: Yeah. And then it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t have to be perfect.

Carolyn: It doesn’t have to be perfect. And I think, you know, one of the things I really didn’t quite appreciate and totally love about community musical theater is the people in the audience. They’re not subscribers. They’re like your friends or your family, your colleagues, your neighbors, and they are so rooting for your success. And so, there’s like this amazing reciprocity of like you just wanna leave it all on the stage floor as we would say. And they’re just right there. And I was surprised actually. I have friends coming back year after year. They’re like “Oh, my God, like just going to these performances are like the most exciting.” I’m like “Really?” Like I just didn’t realize.

I think being in the theaters helped me kind of come out of like getting outta my own way in a way. It’s like “What are people gonna think?” People are going to be inspired. And this is what I think is so cool about what you do with your podcast, John, is when you are in your passion zone and you’re doing your and, like whatever it is, like for me, it’s the theater, like it just ignites something in people’s hearts around you to say like “Hey, you know, what could I do with that kind of energy? Like what would that look like for me?” So it’s a wonderful experience to have and to sort of pass that forward.

John: No, I agree totally. Just the energy and even just in the universe, I guess, you know, type of a thing of giving people permission to go do the thing that does light up their soul and does make you happy and brings you joy.

Carolyn: Just do it.

John: Like go do it. Yeah.

Carolyn: Like what are we waiting for?

John: Right?

Carolyn: Let’s go.

John: Yeah, exactly. No, such great advice. And do you feel like any of this translates to your work at all?

Carolyn: Actually, I’d never thought about it before. You ask me that question now, John. Oh, my gosh. Around the time I started doing the musical theater, I also made a pretty big pivot in my business. And one of the things I started to do was called graphic recording, which is drawing conversation in real time. And if I didn’t have that experience out there— ’cause what that is, like I have been at conferences where there’s like 1,500-2500 people, all kinds of luminaries on the stage. One day, I graphically recorded Michelle Obama and Joe Biden on the same day at two different events.

John: Oh, my goodness. Yeah.

Carolyn: The old Carolyn pre-theater experience would have been like “Oh no, like what are people gonna think of me? Am I doing this right?” And now, I’m just like I can be there in that space and it’s like “All right, let’s dance in this moment, and I’m gonna just go with it” and getting out of my own way of like “Did I do this right?” It’s just like that little inner chatter has just kind of fade into the background. When it comes up, I’ll just be like “Hey, how are you doing? You sit on the bench now. I got some work to do here. I gotta show up for these people.”

John: Yeah. Because it’s like I’ve exercised this muscle outside of work so then, when it’s at work, I can do this, you know, and I can make it happen.

Carolyn: And I think there’s something too about that experience of working with people and it’s not gonna be perfect right out of the gate. The second week of rehearsal, you’re just like “Oh, how are we ever gonna do this?” And it’s the same thing when you’re like at the jobs, right? Things are not gonna be perfect at the beginning, but to trust your team, and to work with each other, and to find like there’s alchemy that happens when you have goodwill, and good heart, and good intention and you work with each other. So I think that’s another thing that I really learned from my experiences with my troop.

John: Yeah.

Carolyn: Like you just don’t know. And if you think you know, you’re not thinking big enough.

John: Yeah. No. And it’s so true. And it’s not why you do musical theater, but it’s a cool byproduct of doing musical theater. It’s like no one during any of your education did anyone say go do musical theater ’cause it will make you better at your career.

Carolyn: No! And if you’ve mentioned it, they would have said “Well, that’s not very practical. That’s not gonna be a good way to earn a living.” And you would have just tamped it down. If you’re having joy in one part of your life, it spills over. And I think people feel that whether you’re in the theater, in a boardroom, at a conference. They’re like “I’ll have what she’s having.”

John: That’s so true. I mean, if you have joy in your life, like what lights up your soul? Like that’s deep.

Carolyn: Yeah.

John: Like someone that I had had on, Mark Winburn, another guest, he said it’s his breathing and happy. And I’m like “Wow. Like how rich is that?” It spills over, you know. If you’re living your best life, you’re gonna be doing your best work and that’s so good that you pointed that out. It’s so true. And I guess has this been typical for you to share your outside of work hobbies through your career or is it more that the musical theater was like “Hey, this is a cool thing that I’m doing”?

Carolyn: You know, I think when I started my career, I was very kind of buttoned down. I thought I had a personal life and there was a professional. And like I had an interest in things about consciousness and spirituality. I would never ever, ever talk about that at work ’cause like “Oh, no, that’s not rational.” And so, I kind of kept those realms separate. And I think whether it’s, as I’ve just progressed in my career, I don’t care as much what other people think about me, you know, than I did when I was in my 20s or 30s, or just having these experiences where you see like if you’re willing to really be out there, be authentic, be vulnerable, I know those are all clichés now, but really let people see you as a goofball and it doesn’t matter, it just opens up the space for them to be like “Oh, man, we need a little bit more lightheartedness here. Like let’s do some improvising, collaborating, like just riffing off of each other.”

That’s what brings more meeting and joy to the moment than like “Oh, wait, that’s not on our agenda for this meeting is to have this conversation.” It’s like “Well, I’m sorry. That protocol is dumb.” You know?

John: Right. Also, my agenda shows that it’s clearly here.

Carolyn: Yeah. Notice what’s going on in the room with a reaction here and can you respond to what’s actually here rather than to what our mental constructs have been? ‘Cause I really think with this pandemic, a lot of us are— You know, the wells of emotional resilience are pretty dry and we’re trying to find our way back. And these kinds of opportunities and moments, even just those little moments, it could just be a conversation in an elevator. Oh, remember the days we used to go to office buildings with elevators and people would be in them?

John: Right. It scares me when someone else comes out. I’m like “Whoa! Hey, I didn’t know you were gonna be here.”

Carolyn: Like “Whoa, what?” “It’s okay. We’re at 6 feet?” “Yeah.”

John: Like “Yeah. Yeah.”

Carolyn: That’s right. So I think, you know, people finding some solace in culture, and music, and those sort of shared experiences I think are really powerful. I’ve missed them and I’m enjoying getting back to them now.

John: Totally. No, it’s super important. Humans wanna be around other humans, you know. It’s just straight up we want to. And that’s how it goes, you know. And how much do you feel like it’s on leadership in whatever capacity to create this space for people to be able to share an and or how much is it on the individual to be like “Hey, like I’m just starting with my small circle up here and we’re gonna go from there”?

Carolyn: Ooh, I think it has to come probably from both. I mean, I think leaders need to create a space for that. And if they’re not creating some sort of space for their own to start showing up in how they lead, I think they’re missing the boat because people in the trenches on the team, those individual contributors, especially, again, pandemic has had a big impact on people saying like “What am I doing with my life? Is this what I wanna be doing? Like I got other things or places to go, people to be, and feelings to have rather than feeling like you’re a cog in the wheel.” I mean, I think that’s just really old style. I think there’s a shift in that, but it needs to be supported at the top and modeled at the top. Again, if it becomes a checkbox, we need to have time for people to share about their passions. You go first.

John: And I have a stopwatch, so you can’t go longer.

Carolyn: Yeah. You’ve taken too much time.

John: Right.

Carolyn: On to the next. Thank you for sharing. That was very moving.

John: Right.

Carolyn: You gotta mean it. Like your words and your energy have to be aligned.

John: That’s so true. That’s so true. I agree totally on that. And so, do you have any words of encouragement for anyone listening that feels like they have an and, but no one cares ’cause it has nothing to do with my job?

Carolyn: If you feel a niggling to explore some and, just find what is that one next baby step that you could do to explore, bringing a little bit more of that into your life. It’s not a big commitment. Like you’re not going to Broadway. I’m not going to Broadway, but just like what’s that next little tiny step and just give yourself permission to do that. I find sometimes those nigglings, if you ignore them, like they’re not inconsequential. I really feel it’s like your wisest, and best, and most expressed self is saying “Hey, let’s check out this fork in the road.” And if you don’t say yes, at some point, you’re gonna get like a smack upside the head somehow, which will say like “Oh, man, I should have learned how to take more time away from my work and to indulge in my passions ’cause now something calamitous has happened.” So just take a little baby step and have some fun with it. Be light with it. And if it’s not for you, you know.

John: Absolutely so true. So true, Carolyn. That’s so perfect. And I feel like before we wrap this up ’cause this has been so good, it’s only fair that I turn the tables and make this The Carolyn Ellis Podcast. Thanks for having me as a guest. And I’m all yours, whatever you wanna ask.

Carolyn: Well, thank you. John, it’s been a pleasure. I’m so glad you could be here with me today.

John: Right? I booked myself. I’m not gonna lie.

Carolyn: Yes. Yes.

John: Like I did.

Carolyn: I have two rapid fire questions for you. What is your biggest pet peeve that when you experience it, you say “Come on, seriously?”

John: Oh, wow. I have so many pet peeves.

Carolyn: Feel free to share more than one.

John: I mean, at an airport with your shoes off or on the airplane with your shoes off, or at the airport or anywhere on speaker phone. What are you doing? I don’t need to hear your conversation. Or listening to a video on max volume. Like I feel like it all boils down to inconsiderate behavior. Or like leaving a shopping cart just randomly. And I used to work at a grocery store, so I had to go get them. And now, it’s like “What are you doing? Why it’s 20 feet over there? Just go do it.” I think it’s inconsiderate behavior is really where it gets me.

Carolyn: Ooh. Those are really good ones. I hadn’t thought of them. Now, I’m feeling—

John: This is a thing now. We’re doing it.

Carolyn: Yeah, come on.

John: Okay. Like yeah.

Carolyn: Yeah.

John: I feel like the smartphones, you should have to take a test to whether or not you’re able to own a smartphone. Just because you have speakerphone doesn’t mean you should be on it at all. When I worked at an office, that was my pet peeve, was the partners would always hit speaker phone and then dial the phone number. Ring, ring, ring. And then when the person picks up, they would pick up the receiver to talk, but I don’t need to hear your boo, boo, boo, boo ring, ring, ring. No, pick up the receiver. Dial it that way. Like what are you doing?

Carolyn: That’s so inconsiderate. Absolutely right.

John: That’s really what it boils down to. And probably none of those things happen in Canada ’cause it’s magic land.

Carolyn: Oh, we’re very polite up here. Yes. Uh-huh.

John: Right?

Carolyn: No, no, but you’re right. I mean, honestly, sometimes on the beach it’s like people are out there, families picnicking and stuff. And then the next day, it’s like “Dude, you had your beer and the recycling’s right there and you just had to leave it on the grass. Like why?”

John: Yeah. Yeah, littering. Yeah.

Carolyn: It’s like, oh, I hate that.

John: That’s out there too.

Carolyn: Ugh! Okay. So my next question for you, John, is when you come back in your next life, who or what would you want to be?

John: Holy moly. Carolyn Ellis, that’s who I wanna be. I wanna be you. Wow. That is a good question. I mean, part of me wants to be like a dog or something where it’s just like life is good. Like I got zero pressure. I’m surprised every time my owner comes home. It’s just always a party and not a lot of pressure, and I can just pee wherever I want, and we’re good. Yeah, everyone loves you.

Carolyn: Everyone loves you. State of delight the whole time.

John: Yeah. I feel like a dog wouldn’t be so bad, you know. Like it’s kind of nice to just have a rotation off, if you will, where it’s like, hey, less pressure. Like we’re good. I don’t need all the pressure of all that stuff.

Carolyn: Oh, that’s a lot of training involved with that. That’s a very special kind of free incarnation.

John: We might start the training. And 2 hours in, they’ll be like “No, not this one.” We gotta like move them out to something else.

Carolyn: I think that’s a wonderful answer. And it’s just good boy, John.

John: Yeah, there you go. And yeah, more good boys. I feel like we need like more of that in my existence.

Carolyn: Please. Well, you nailed those answers. Thank you so much for playing the game.

John: No, no, absolutely. Thank you for being the host and honestly for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This has been super, super awesome, Carolyn. Thank you so much.

Carolyn: Awesome. It’s been a delight. Thanks so much.

John: Everyone listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Carolyn on stage, or maybe connect with her on social media, or check out her book (Lead Conversations That Count), be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. Thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 515 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. It was so kind of the Independent Press Awards to name it a Distinguished Favorite. It’s really, really cool to have that for my first book. And overall, the book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Chase Birky. He’s the CEO and cofounder of Dark Horse CPAs. And now, he’s with me here today. Chase, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Chase: Thank you, John. Happy to be here.

John: Yeah, it’s gonna be a blast. We connected over a random LinkedIn post that you had about an article about how supposedly accountants are boring and then somebody is like “You should talk to John Garrett.” And I was like “Ooh, that’s a lot of pressure.” Like a whole profession I need to turn around. But no, it will be fun. But I do have some rapid fire questions. Get to know Chase out of the gate here. So maybe an easy one, a favorite color.

Chase: Forest green.

John: Okay, nice. How about a least favorite color?

Chase: Fuchsia.

John: Fuchsia. Nice. Don’t even know how to spell it. That’s how much I don’t like it.

Chase: It has a C in there.

John: Right. Weird. Like what? That makes me angry actually just because of that. Do you prefer more talk or text?

Chase: Talk?

John: Talk. Okay. Yeah. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Chase: Ooh, let’s go with Edward Norton.

John: Oh, yeah. He’s so good. Like so good. Like deceptively good. How about a favorite season, summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Chase: It depends on where I am. In Vegas, it’s definitely not summer.

John: Right.

Chase: I would say fall just because seasons are turning and college football’s on as well as—

John: Amen, man. That’s why it’s my favorite too. Exactly. Yeah. It’s exactly right. How about when it comes to puzzles, Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Chase: Crossword.

John: Crossword. Okay. Oh, nice. All right. How about a favorite movie of all time?

Chase: The Big Lebowski.

John: Oh, there you go. All right. I see. I see. how about when it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Chase: Audio version.

John: Audio. Okay. All right. Yeah. I just started getting into that and it’s great ’cause you can double speed it and just burn through a book. It’s like “Wow.” All right. Great.

Chase: Yeah. I find that I am not using as much of my brain, which is helpful, when I’m trying to absorb information after a bit of a day. So for me, it works.

John: Yeah. Totally. I totally get it. And do you have a favorite number?

Chase: 14.

John: Yeah. Is there a reason?

Chase: That is always the number that I had in all sports growing up.

John: Okay. It’s a solid number. Yeah. You got lucky, man.

Chase: I don’t know how I landed on it, but I stuck with it once I did.

John: That’s a good number, man. That’s solid. There you go. What’s a typical breakfast?

Chase: Breakfast burrito.

John: Oh, you know what? Those are like so good. I mean, it’s just like everything all wrapped and then you could just now messy hands, just eat it. Yeah. That’s so good.

Chase: I spent good 15 years in San Diego, so I got pretty accustomed to that as a breakfast item. And I’m also pretty picky on it, but I will say my favorite item is just something I can’t really find where I currently am is a breakfast pizza.

John: Oh! Never even heard of that. Okay.

Chase: Yeah.

John: All right. So it’s the burrito just opened up?

Chase: Kinda. Yeah. I mean, there’s a place in San Diego that does one. it’s an Italian spot called Pappalecco. And it’s basically a Neapolitan-style pizza with an over easy egg, sausage, potatoes. And it’s just delicious.

John: Yeah. Wow. All right. That sounds like that’s also one of your ands. That’s for sure like it.

Chase: I’m a bit of a foodie for sure.

John: Yeah, no, that’s awesome. I love it. ‘Cause you have the accounting background, balance sheet or income statement?

Chase: I’m gonna say balance sheet just because it’s underappreciated. It’s the dark horse of financial statements.

John: Ah, I see what you did there. I see what you did. Circle around there. All right. All right. How about when it comes to your computer, PC or a Mac?

Chase: Absolutely. PC. I mean, I’m on the iPhone, you know, as far as the Mac world, but everything in accounting is just PC native. So I’m all in on that.

John: Yeah. I’m same with PC. Absolutely. How about your first concert?

Chase: First concert… Actually, the first concert I was supposed to go to got canceled even though we drove 2 hours to see it not realizing it was canceled. That was actually supposed to be The Lost Profits, which was a UK-based band. They’re kind of alt rock.

John: Yeah. Oh, man, bummer. But it makes for a great story, I guess, sort of. Have you been able to catch them since?

Chase: No, I haven’t.

John: Okay. And my musical tastes have kind of changed over the years. So one thing that most people are surprised to learn about me is that I’m really big into EDM.

John: Oh, okay.

Chase: I may be one of the only CPAs you’ll find at a rave.

John: Ah, you’d be surprised, but yeah. But I mean, a lot of tax information being distributed to the audience like “Is this your business? Those glow sticks are tax deductible.”
“What?!” Right?

Chase: I can assure you those are not the conversations I’m having there, but point taken nonetheless.

John: Exactly. Exactly. That’s hilarious. How about Star Wars or star Trek?

Chase: Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. Yeah, me too. All right. We got three more. How about when it comes to your ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Chase: A cone. And actually, hopefully, that cone is chocolate dipped.

John: Ah, yes. There you go. There you go. How about your favorite college football game that you attended?

Chase: It was the Rose Bowl with Justin Herbert’s last year, the Ducks and the Badgers. It was a game that I thought we were gonna lose up until midway through the 4th quarter.

John: That was an insane game. I totally remember that.

Chase: Totally insane game. Herbert had three rushing touchdowns, which was just beast mode status. And it capped off a road trip that we did from Southern Oregon all the way down to Rose Bowl. And it was epic.

John: Yeah. And Rose Bowl is such a great place to see a game anyway.

Chase: Other than the parking I will say.

John: Well, yeah, no. Right. The parking was super—

Chase: The parking was a nightmare, but the venue is incredible.

John: Yeah. Just really cool history there. All right. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Chase: You know, for me, it’s probably not so much a tangible item. It’s probably more the freedom and autonomy that I have that I didn’t always have in previous jobs. I mean, to me, that’s what I value most. You know, not the material things that have come as a result of that, but really it’s just that autonomy is what I value most.

John: Totally. No, that’s solid answer. That totally works. So how about let’s talk college football? That’s also one of my ands, so I’m super excited about this.

Chase: Yeah. And you’re a Notre Dame fan from what I understand.

John: Yeah. I mean, it’s where I went to school, but I’m just a huge college football fan in general. But yeah, definitely Notre Dame’s my team.

Chase: What do you think about the Brian Kelly departure?

John: Yeah, that was crazy, man. Also, it’s my podcast. I’ll ask you the question. I’m totally teasing. No, but I do some work with the team for their award show every year. And so, I had gotten to know BK a good amount. That’s my helmet that’s on my shelf. It is signed by him and with a little note. And he was always good to me, but yeah, it was crazy. But you know, when there’s $95 million—

Chase: Money talks.

John: Yeah. I mean, definitely. And so, we’ll see how it plays out. I think Marcus Freeman’s awesome, and he’s a really good person, and the players love him.

Chase: He was the assistant there. Right?

John: He was a defensive coordinator for 1 year.

Chase: Coordinator. Yeah.

John: So he had only been there 1 year or less than 1 year technically when he was hired on as the head coach. And so, yeah, we’ll see how it all plays out, but a lot of the staff are awesome now too. And the players are excited. The recruits are excited, which is most important, but I feel like we both can hate USC equally. So we have a common bond there.

Chase: Especially with that Lincoln Riley showing up.

John: Oh, totally. And then taking half of Oklahoma’s team with him. It’s like “Come on, man. That’s dirty.” Like this is just weird.

Chase: The only thing I’ll say that’s good about that is the Pac-12 is in desperate need of relevance. And hopefully, that restores some of the previous cache at the conference ’cause we’re—

John: Exactly. So how has Oregon become your team?

Chase: So I, I grew up in Oregon.

John: Ah, okay.

Chase: Yeah. And so, you know, you’re either a Beaver or Duck for the most part, and there’s some pretty ill will amongst the two groups. And for me growing up, I kind of liked both to be honest. Oregon, for a long time, didn’t have a baseball team. Oregon state did. They won national championships, you know. So I always followed them. But when it came to football, I mean, the brand that Oregon is and especially when they were pioneering that no huddle, fast tempo offense when no one else was, it was just so exciting.

John: Yeah. Chip Kelly as the coach and then yeah.

And then plus the Nike alignment. And they get all the cool jerseys, and gear, and all that stuff. And the stadium’s nuts. I mean, it’s awesome. It’s great to see a game in.

Chase: Right. I mean, Uncle Phil definitely is kind of the angel investor behind all this that has definitely paid dividends for the program. That’s for sure.

John: Yeah. No, that’s awesome. And so, you’ve been to quite a few games then as well.

Chase: Yeah. And actually, most of them actually haven’t been at Autzen. It’s just kind of been wherever I’ve been subsequent to that. But yeah, I mean, anytime I get the chance, I’m there, although I will say going to the Pac-12 championship in Vegas when they played Utah was extremely disheartening. And I actually left during the 3rd quarter ’cause I was so upset.

John: All right. It’s an emotional experience. Right? I mean, it’s like I’m not playing, but I’m playing. Like I feel like it. Like it hurts when we lose. And when we win, it’s exhilarating, and I’m gonna be hoarse after for sure just from cheering. And yeah, all that.

Chase: My wife doesn’t love the fall because I’m either on a really great day or a really terrible day. So she doesn’t know what she’s gonna get, you know. And it’s not within my control obviously. You might say I could control my reactions, but maybe I’m not that evolved at this point in my life.

John: No, no, I think you’re doing all right, man. I think you’re doing all right. Like I’ll see you at the meetings. Like college football anonymous, here we come. No, but it’s just such a great experience when you’re there live. But even watching on TV, it’s so cool. Are there other teams you’ll watch as well or is it pretty much just a straight Oregon thing?

Chase: Well, I binge watch college football, so I start pretty much at about 6 a.m. with college game day.

John: Nice. Yeah.

Chase: You know? ‘Cause I love the pageantry. I love the conversation. Some of those human interest stories they do.

John: Sure. Yeah.

Chase: You know, it gets me just fired up for the rest of the day. And honestly, I’m usually watching until 8 or 9 at night Pacific time, so it’s a long day of football, which is then followed up by another not quite as long day of football, but NFL.

John: Right. On Sundays.

Chase: Watching RedZone and all that. So my wife doesn’t see as much of me as she probably would prefer to during September through January-ish.

John: Exactly. But you know, at least you have a passion like for something. And that’s cool, man. And is this something that you talk about with coworkers or clients or does it come up?

Chase: I mean, kind of the running joke at Dark Horse is that I’ll be able to correlate just about any statement back to football. So I try to be mindful of that to not alienate those who don’t care. But you know, it is a pretty universal thing when it comes to college football because most— well, every CPA went to college, right, so they have some allegiance usually unless they went to a small school without a football program. But you know, everyone has some sort of connection to it I find and even folks that you might not suspect. You know, we’ve got a VP of technology who’s from China, but he’s actually probably even a bigger college football fan than I am.

John: That’s awesome.

Chase: Yeah. He went to the Ohio State.

John: Oh, on purpose? No, I’m just kidding. I’m teasing.

Chase: That’s what I wondered. But you know, he’s used to winning.

John: Sure.

Chase: But he probably knows more about college football.

John: Especially recently. Yeah. ‘Cause he probably caught on after the Cooper era and, you know, like whatever. So yeah, it’s like “All right, good for you, man.” It’s like those young Patriots fans and Red Sox fans that don’t remember when they were terrible, but that’s cool that you’re able to find that bond over— I mean, someone from China and it’s over something that’s deeper and something you’re both passionate about like that above and beyond spreadsheets, computers, and accounting, and whatever.

Chase: Totally. I mean, when you can find those areas, you can always find ways to connect because it’s just an easy point of conversation, right? When you’re searching for that point of commonality, it’s a lot harder and a lot more exhausting. That’s for sure.

John: Yeah. Even if it’s not exactly the same thing, at least you know about it and then you can ask questions and be genuinely interested in it as opposed to just I don’t even know who you are type of thing, you know. And how important do you feel that is? I mean, especially for Dark Horse where it’s so remote with everyone on the team.

Chase: Yeah. I mean, I really think that being remote, which companies have been forced to do, and obviously some are going back more to the office, but we were remote before the pandemic and we intend to be that way forever because it really fits our business model. But being remote requires you to be a lot more intentional about connection and culture.

Because if you’re not, it’s just not gonna happen because you don’t have the water cooler conversations, you know. So the need for intentionality in terms of reaching out to people and having meaningful connections, I think, has been a learning curve for a lot of folks. And even though we started remote, we’re always learning better ways to connect and make it more regular and do what we can to bridge the gap of in-person relationships to things like Zoom and Microsoft Teams.

John: Yeah. ‘Cause, I mean, when you’re in person, those things happen accidentally. You’re around somebody. You go to lunch together. You’re in their office. You see the whites of their eyes. Yeah, like you said, the water cooler, whatever, in the hallway. You know, those conversations happen. And this, you get on a video call and then when the agenda— and then when it’s done, the screen goes black, and you’re like “Uh, was that good? I don’t know. You know, like I’m not sure.” And so, like you said, being intentional with it. Are there things that Dark Horse does specifically that you find help to make that happen whether it’s leading a meeting with something or something like that?

Chase: Yeah. I mean, I guess from 30,000 feet, what I believe to be the most impactful component of culture is purpose. Because if you’re aligned around a common purpose and mission, then a lot of that tends to figure itself out. But beyond that, I mean, we do a kickoff call every Monday where we talk about different initiatives, and highlighting people’s successes, and all those sorts of things to keep people connected with kind of the broader organization. And then we have huddles on a daily basis for different areas of the business that get people a space to connect and shoot the breeze, if you will, or talk about different areas that they’re trying to improve in or get maybe a second opinion on best practice huddles. I mean, just really a series of scheduled touch points that aren’t too much that it distracts people and makes people feel obligated, but striking that balance to push people to connect, but not dominate their day.

John: Yeah. No. Just be intentional with it and you bring people together and then magic happens, you know. And then we’ve been in each other’s homes now. Like you can see the art on the wall, or the cat catwalk across the screen, or the whatever.

Chase: And the toddler on the knee. Yeah. I mean, you really get a window that you’d never had before into people’s actual personal life, which I think definitely fosters connection in a lot of ways. And then the other thing we do is an annual retreat typically after the last deadline for us of October 15th and get everyone together. But you know, when we get everyone together, it’s really cool to see relationships that started online pick up right where you left them off online and people— It shows you that it’s not just a synthetic sort of connection. It’s a real connection because you see it in person and it’s as authentic as it is on Zoom.

John: Yeah. And then it just accelerates it. So then the next time we meet virtually, then it’s even further advanced. And yeah, that little bit of in person is huge. Definitely. That’s really awesome. And so, were you always like this as far as like sharing an and or even having ands or earlier in your career?

Chase: Yeah. I mean, I think I’ve kind of maybe been on too far the spectrum of what might be called an overshare.

John: Oh, okay.

Chase: I just kind of lead with whatever’s on my mind and really trying to give people an authentic window into who I am, not who I’m trying to project myself to be.

John: Yeah. And I mean, is there any negative ramifications that come from that or is it mostly in our heads that we think that we’re oversharing? Because relative to everyone else who’s sharing nothing, I’m oversharing by saying one thing, you know.

Chase: Yeah. I mean, there’s always a downside if you share something that makes someone uncomfortable maybe.

John: Well, yeah, of course. Right.

Chase: I think the positive, what I focus on is that humanizing, you know, you as either a coworker, a leader, whatever position you’re in in the firm really just helps foster a meaningful relationship. When people know that when they’re talking to you that they’re getting the true you and not just the accountant or CPA version of you goes a long way ’cause, you know, at the end of the day, it’s a relationship business whether it’s with clients or with coworkers, or team members, or whomever. And you really have to invest the time in people, in relationships to do what you wanna do from a business standpoint and also enjoy the journey along the way.

John: I love that, man. That’s so good right there. It’s so good. Yeah. And of course, leading with something that’s controversial, or illegal, or taboo, let’s not do that, then it’s unprofessional actually. But you know, if it’s not your fault somebody went to the university of Washington, if that makes you uncomfortable, I can’t help that.

Chase: AKA my brother-in-law and we’re always talking craft to each other, which I’ve had the upper hand for a number of years.

John: It got ugly. It got ugly the last couple years. Woo! Yeah, it got weird, but you’re exactly right. And you know, it’s just being intentional with that and, and caring about others, and creating that human connection, you know. ‘Cause at the end of the day, it’s still a human-to-human transaction that’s happening.

Chase: Well, and the other thing too is that people struggle with things whether they’re health, whether they’re relationships, whether that’s stress. And if you don’t take the time to really unpack those things to the extent that people feel comfortable sharing, you’re not able to support them in the ways that they need. And I think that often gets overlooked in public accounting, especially during busy seasons or tax seasons, where the work just has to get done and your problems can wait until things slow down sort of thing. But at the end of the day, if you’re not supporting people, they can’t bring their best self to work. They can’t do the kind of work that they would otherwise be able to if they had a clear mind and not so much hanging over their head.

John: Yeah. No. You’re spot on. I mean, when I keynote at conferences, it’s asking people are your people living their best life. Because if they’re living their best life, they’re gonna do their best work. But if they’re not living their best life, they’re not gonna be doing their best work. I mean, they’re just not. So if we fix this thing, like you said earlier when we’re talking, everything falls out from that. And so, are you living your best life? Awesome. Are you doing your ands? Are you sharing them? Awesome. Then everything good’s gonna happen.

Chase: Yehah

John: Especially at Dark Horse where you guys— the bios for everyone on your team on the website, but the last paragraph is always, you know, when they’re not crunching numbers, they’re doing this or doing that. And it just really humanizes everybody to go from “Well, they all work for an accounting firm” to “Well, no, they’re all different in their own way, which is cool.” And I’m sure that people can connect over that whether it’s with clients or coworkers.

Chase: Yeah. So I write all those myself. My mom made me take all these advanced placement, you know, international baccalaureate English courses, which I hated growing up. But I’ve come to find that writing is a really key differentiator and you know, something that’s super valuable in the workplace.

John: Yeah. That’s where the crossword puzzle answer came from earlier. I see.

Chase: Exactly.

John: Okay. Okay. All right.

Chase: Exactly. And also Scrabble. I love Scrabble, which might put me in the nerd category, but it’s hard to beat my parents ’cause they know way more words than I do.

John: Right. It’s like they had a head start or something, like they’re cheating.

Chase: They’ve read more books. They’ve looked up the dictionary more times.

John: Right.

Chase: They’re tough to beat.

John: Well, it’s all right. One day, man. One day. Like it’s all good. It’s all good. So, yeah. So do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that might have an and, but they feel like no one’s gonna care because it has nothing to do with my job?

Chase: You know, I would say I guess taking a step back even further if you are working at a company, or accounting firm, or wherever that you don’t feel like you have that level of rapport with the people you work with, maybe you should look at working somewhere else because if there’s not that level of rapport in relationship that you feel like you could bring up a hobby, which I would say is maybe some of the more or less emotion-filled areas of people’s lives, you know.

John: Unless it’s college football for you and me, but either way, it’s benign, you know. It’s a benign thing of a hobby.

Chase: 100%. Yeah. I think just in general, you know, accounts are in large struggling from existential crises in terms of trying to find ways that their work is actually providing meaning to their lives and helping them live the life that they want to live as opposed to just getting from deadline to deadline. And so, that’s what I’m really most passionate about with Dark Horse, is giving people the platform to design their life in a way that when they’re at their deathbed, they’re gonna be proud of and they’re gonna live a story that’s meaningful. And if you’re not intentional about it and if you don’t have the platform and support to do it, there’s a lot of folks that get to retirement and they’re like “I’ve worked my whole life for this. And by the way, I kind of missed out along the way because I was so focused on being done with work and being secure that my best years I didn’t enjoy.”

Right? So one of the exercises we do with people, usually once a year, is we have them write their obituary. Ad this is my idea. This is actually from Donald Miller.

John: StoryBrand. Yeah.

Chase: Exactly. Yeah. Out of Nashville. And really, the point of that is what do you want to be said about your life? And if you start with that end in mind, then you can really be intentional about how you’re structuring your life and your work to make that happen. It’s like anything where you have a goal. If you have that goal and you’re focused on it, you’re a lot more likely to achieve it than just kind of having it in the ether and having some vague ideas about things and not doing tangibly what you need to do in the here and now to make that happen. So we like to have people start with that end in mind and how are you gonna build a practice and a lifestyle that’s gonna support you in and really what you want your life’s work to be about.

John: Yeah. And is it something that we share with the team as well?

Chase: Yeah.

John: Oh, okay. Nice.

Chase: I mean, we don’t force people to say, but just about everyone feels comfortable enough to share it.

John: That’s awesome, man. There’s gonna be a lot of CEOs of Dark Horse in the room. That’s weird. It’s like target on my back, but I love that because it’s literally are you living your best life? Like how can we help you do that? You know, explicitly saying it out loud, and we care, and how can I help you get to that end goal type of thing. And that’s how much you care about the person, which is great ’cause you can’t get that a lot of places, you know. And it’s something that that’s simple, but it’s genuine and it runs deep. I love it, man. That’s such a great example that literally everyone can do.

Chase: Yeah. I mean, for me, it was really what we are doing when you look at the motivating factors and the purpose. You know, going out on my own was not something that was necessarily intentional. It was just a product of the circumstances for me. And in that, I really was able to realize that I could do a lot more than I thought I could. You know, I realized that I could be the author of my own story and that I had control over my life. And I could find things that I found compelling, and interesting, and worthwhile that I could focus my time and energy towards. So starting what’s now Dark Horse was probably more personally transformational than even professionally.

John: Totally.

Chase: Having said that, there’s a lot of blood, sweat, tears, and sacrifice along the way. So really what Dark Horse is about is let’s give people that platform without as many of the headaches in the trials and tribulations because so many firms out there, you know— I mean, 99% of firms out there, you start as staff, and senior, then manager, then senior manager and grinding for 15 to 20 years hoping that you’re gonna be one of the 2% that makes partner. And at the end of the day, this doesn’t happen for a lot of people. A lot of people opt out before they get there because they’re just so burnt out and run down. Right?

John: Yeah.

Chase: But you know, that kind of just comes from an old school traditional mindset. And what we’ve found is that when you’re talking about CPAs, you’re talking about high capacity, high integrity people. And if you give ’em the right platform, the right tools, and the right coaching, they’re so much more capable than I think a lot of the firms that they come from believe they are. And we see just that light bulb turn on it’s not just about them growing a book of business. It’s enjoying their life. That’s what it’s all about.

John: It’s amazing how much we believe whatever the narrative that’s fed us or even the narrative we tell ourselves. I mean, my inner critic is brutal. I mean, so much more brutal than anyone could possibly be. And it’s the self-limiting factor that’s just terrible, you know. And it’s cool to step out on the limb and be supported, and you can do it and all that. So it’s just so cool to hear you’ve been through that as well. So that’s awesome, man.

Chase: Yeah. I think as accountants in general, we suffer from paralysis by analysis and knowing what we don’t know. It’s a sign of intelligence, but it’s also something that can be a barrier to growth when the kind of knowledge of what you don’t know and what you feel like your faults are and all that just— you know, know it can get in your way. Right?

John: Totally. No, I love it, man. So encouraging. So encouraging. And I feel like before we wrap this up though, it’s only fair that we turned the table since I peppered you with questions at the beginning. We make this the first episode of The Chase Birky Podcast. So thanks for having me on as a guest and I’m all yours, man.

Chase: All right. Well, my rapid fire questions are in relation to college football.

John: Okay.

Chase: They’re easy questions, but I might judge you for the answers.

John: Okay. I’m gonna judge myself before you can judge me. I’m judging that I’m judging you’re judging.

Chase: That’s very meta of you. Very meta.

John: Right.

Chase: All right. So I got 3 questions here all about college football.

John: Okay.

Chase: Number 1: What is the most overrated conference in college football?

John: SEC hands down 100%. I’ll fight anybody on that. It’s Alabama and maybe one other team and then 12 average teams at best. It’s like get out of here. Quit playing in your FCS schools and play somebody north of the Mason-Dixon line so we can actually see you guys not just play yourselves in this fake bubble that ESPN continues to feed. Hopefully that was the right answer.

Chase: That is the correct—

John: That’s the right answer?

Chase: Yes.

John: Okay. All right. All right.

Chase: All right. Next question. What is next year’s surprise team?

John: Ah, next year’s surprise team. So kinda like the Cincinnati of—

Chase: Yes.

John: …2021. That’s a good question. I feel like— I don’t know. I feel like somebody like a Miami maybe or maybe a Florida state. Somebody that’s gonna just rebound that’s a historically good team that’s been not good for a while and they’re due to come back. I don’t mean like they’re gonna be in the playoffs, but I mean like 9 in 3, 8 in 4, 9 in 3 kind of thing, so be respectable at least.

Chase: Yeah. I would say Miami is a good answer. It’s one that I’m also bitter about because Mario Cristobal used to be our coach. He’s now at Miami. So I think he’s gonna turn them around in a pretty meaningful way.

John: Right. And the recruits are there and everything. So I feel like, you know, maybe not playoffs, but like respectable.

Chase: Right. And actually, that brings up another question that I’m gonna add here. How many teams should be in the playoff? How big should the playoff field be?

John: You know, I kinda liked it when it’s just 1 and 2, when it was kind of the BCS and then the bowls could be the bowls and whatever ’cause it’s hard ’cause there’s always gonna be “Oh, well, let’s make it 8 teams.” Well, there’s always a ninth that should be in there. And then are we cutting down the season now to only be 9 games because we have to have the championship eventually be whatever? I don’t know. So I’m kind of traditionalist though. Like, I mean, even before that, before the BCS when it was just like just play the balls and all that, so I don’t know. I can see the other side too though. It’s just the wear and tear on these student athletes is a lot. I mean, it’s a lot now.

Chase: So my personal opinion, I’m on the other side, I think we should have 8 teams. I think you should take away one of those meaningless FCS games you mentioned off the front end of the schedule. If you win at your power five conference, automatic bid. Then three at large, it gives a conference of five like Cincinnati a chance, although they probably end up playing Alabama and getting crushed, but they still get a chance. And then two at large teams, probably one from the SEC and one from the big 10 or the big 12 as it stands currently.

John: Right. I could see that as well. It’s just you gotta shorten the schedule and then you also have to make sure that the wear and tear and the academic side of it too for the schools that have student athletes instead of athlete athletes, but I mean, more college football isn’t a bad thing. So like, yes, it’s like would you like 4 scoops of ice cream? Totally. Like why would we only have one?

Chase: Right. And the other thing for me, I mean, this might just be informed by Oregon losing two national championship games, is the number of weeks off in between the regular season and the bowls tends to benefit the SEC because the defense is usually so much better than the team they’re playing. So, you know, with 3-4 weeks the game plan—

John: Against the offense. Right.

Chase: Exactly. And the offense comes out, you know, not clicking like they were during the regular season tends to disadvantage my team. So that’s a totally biased take on it.

John: I mean, I feel like all our takes are biased. I mean, on everything. They’re based on our experience. So, you know, that’s awesome. No, very cool. Was there one more question?

Chase: There’s one more question. And so, this one is another biased question, Oregon versus Georgia season opener, are you taking Georgia -15 or Oregon +15?

John: Oh, I’ll take Oregon +15 on that.

Chase: I like it.

John: I think Georgia’s gonna be a little overconfident. I feel like they got super lucky last year. And yeah, I think Oregon. I think so. I mean, there’s plenty of speed in offense.

And 15 points, good Lord. Yeah, that is a lot.

Chase: I mean, I think you got two things. One, we’ve got the defensive coordinator from Georgia from last year, so he’s gonna have some inside knowledge. And #2, it’s the first game of the season, so neither team is gonna be playing their best. I mean, if this was middle of the season, I actually might say Georgia..

John: Not by 15. No way. Yeah. I mean, they still got their walk on quarterback. They’re still rolling with that. It’s like he’s the Rudy of the SEC. It’s like we got a new Rudy now. Good for him. E C now. Like it’s like, we got a new Rudy now. So it’s like, you know, good for him and good for Georgia for getting the monkey off their back and all that, but goodness.

Chase: Rudy is probably someone close to your heart as an Irish fan of the movie.

John: Not the individual. The movie.

Chase: The movie.

John: Of course.

Chase: Yeah.

John: But yeah, not the individual per se, but this has been so much fun, Chase. We could go on forever because this is also my and, but we should probably wrap it up. So thanks so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”?

Chase: Thanks, John. Really appreciate it. Really enjoyed the conversation and hope to talk soon.

John: Everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Chase outside of work at a college football game or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 513 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth into the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and listening to it on Audible, and writing such great reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Lynne Titley. She’s the associate director of finance at Space & Time Media in Bournemouth, UK. And now, she’s with me here today. Lynne, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Lynne: Thank you so much. I love this podcast. Really pleased to be here.

John: Oh, thank you. This is gonna be so much fun ’cause I’m a musician as well. I mean, we’re gonna be so close to jamming by the end of this.

Lynne: I feel like you’re gonna get it completely.

John: Right? Exactly. But before I get going in that stuff, I have 17 rapid fire questions. Get to know Lynne out of the gate. So here we go. I’ll start you with an easy one, I think. Favorite color.

Lynne: Pink now. Yeah, it used to be blue. Now, pink.

John: Okay. Okay. All right. How about a least favorite color?

Lynne: Yeah. Orange.

John: You know what? That is by far the most least favorite color of everyone.

Lynne: Weird. Isn’t it?

John: I should just stop asking the question.

Lynne: You know, I think it’s just been done. It’s just been overdone. There’s too much orange for me.

John: Right. Any orange at all is too much.

Lynne: Yeah.

John: There you go. How about a favorite animal? Any animal at all.

Lynne: Oh, I’ve gotta go cats.

John: Cats.

Lynne: Yeah. We’ve got a cat. She would crucify me if I said anything else.

John: Right. Just in case she listens.

Lynne: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John: You know, that works. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw?

Lynne: Crossword. Because I spend so much time with numbers in the daytime obviously. A crossword is a nice kind of change of pace, change of angle on things. Yeah.

John: That’s an excellent point right there for sure. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Lynne: Hugh Jackman.

John: Yeah. He’s excellent. And he’s so good in everything. Like he’s so diverse.

Lynne: He’s just such a nice bloke. He’s just so humble.

John: Oh, that too. Yeah. Just a good person.

Lynne: He can just play anything and he’s just— Yeah. Yeah. He’s awesome. I hope my husband doesn’t listen to this.

John: We’re talking about as an actor. He’s a nice person.

Lynne: Completely professional interest.

John: Yeah. Absolutely. If you could date any actor, who would it be? Also Hugh Jackman, but that isn’t the question I asked. That was a totally different question. Right? How about a favorite place you’ve been on vacation?

Lynne: Ooh, okay. Well, we just went to Italy a couple of weeks ago. I went to Verona and it was awesome. Really loved it. Really beautiful. Just walk everywhere from where we stayed, and great restaurants and architecture, and it was lovely. Really lovely break. So yeah, I’m gonna say at the moment, Verona. I’d otherwise change my mind, but yeah.

John: That totally works. Yeah. How about more Star Wars or star Trek?

Lynne: Star Wars for the films and Star Trek for the TV.

John: Oh, yeah. I’ll take that. I’ll take that. Absolutely. Absolutely. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Lynne: I’ve never really had a chance to use Macs. I had iPhones for a while, but not Mac. So yeah, PC all my life. It just because that’s all I’ve ever had been given to.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I’m curious. In the UK, toilet paper roll, is it over or under? Are you guys like reverse?

Lynne: It’s incredibly contentious, John. I won’t lie. It’s very contentious. So that sounds like you have the same problem over there.

John: Yeah.

Lynne: Yeah. I mean, what can I say? For me personally, it’s over without a doubt. Just there is no argument, but I know there are people out there who disagree. I won’t begin to try and understand them.

John: Right. Exactly. I think they’re French. There you go. Oh, this is a fun one. Ice cream. I’m a huge ice cream fan. You get ice cream in a cup or in a cone?

Lynne: I usually get cup because it feels less unhealthy. I feel less guilty if I get it in a cup.

John: Right. Sometimes I try and talk ’em into putting the cone on top of the cup so that I get both. It’s not messy, but I still get the calories and the sugar.

Lynne: Will they do that for you?

John: On occasion, yeah. If you ask and you ask nicely.

Lynne: Good call.

John: Yeah. It’s a super-secret bonus. Now, all the ice cream shops are gonna start e-mailing.

Quit telling people ’cause now we have to sell in cups and cones, and we’re running out of supplies. That will be the next world shortage. Ice cream cones. Now, I’m gonna be angry. Yeah. The gas prices is one thing. Ice cream cones, that’s where I’m drawing the line.

Lynne: Oh, I find some wafers— take some wafers in it or something instead. Like I don’t know. Find a KitKat or something.

John: Right. There you go. Here’s a fun one. Planes, trains, or automobiles?

Lynne: Oh, woah. Trains.

John: Yeah. Especially in Europe. You guys have it down.

Lynne: Yeah. Some European countries, absolutely. I’m not sure us quite so much, but I don’t like flying. I’ll be honest. I’ll do it, but I can’t say I enjoy it. I do get nervous. And yeah, if it’s a long journey, you wanna sit on a train and read or do a little bit extra work or life hack, you know, or sleep, or something.

John: Yeah. Absolutely. Plus, there’s a novelty to it. It’s kinda neat. You know, you don’t do it all the time. You know, a car is every day.

Lynne: Yeah. Absolutely. And when you go on holiday, like if you turn up at the station, as soon as you turn up at the station, you’re on holiday. Right? The journey is included in the holiday, I think, for me.

John: Yeah. No, that’s true. That’s an excellent point. Since you have the finance background, balance sheet or income statement?

Lynne: Balance sheet.

John: Oh?

Lynne: Yeah. No contest because net worth, right, is more important than income in any particular period. I think worth is much of the better measure of—

John: What’s the total accumulation? Where are we going here?

Lynne: Absolutely. Yeah.

John: All right. How about summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Lynne: Summer.

John: Summer. Okay.

Lynne: Yeah. I struggle. It’s contentious because I do get burnt quite easily, but I like being warm. I don’t like being cold. I like being warm though. I like to sit in the shade. Yeah. On a really hot day, sit in the shade, and just be warm, and just breathe. Yeah.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, we got three more. Do you have a favorite number?

Lynne: No, I couldn’t possibly choose. It would be rude to all the other numbers.

John: Especially the cats that like numbers just in case they’re all so listening.

Lynne: Yeah. Don’t make me choose.

John: Right? Fair enough. I won’t make you choose. When it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Lynne: Audio version.

John: Oh, okay.

Lynne: I think I’m all about the life hacks. I love to walk and listen to podcasts. So I’m getting my exercise and I’m getting my mental kind of development as well. Yeah. You can’t walk along holding the book. So yeah, podcast.

John: Plus, you can listen to it at like one and a half speed or two speed, and your brain still processes it, and it’s so much faster than actually reading. But, well, you’re also doing other things at the same time. That’s awesome.

Lynne: Absolutely. You can do your washing up. You can do your walk. You can do whatever you need to do.

John: Totally. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Lynne: I’m gonna go favorite thing I have. Not in the ownership sense. I’m gonna be really cheesy and say it’s my husband because he’s the absolute light of my life. I feel like I have my husband, so I’m gonna call him out.

John: Absolutely. So good. Just in case he didn’t turn it off earlier.

Lynne: Yeah.

John: Totally redeem yourself.

John: That’s so fantastic and super sweet. So, absolutely, that totally counts. Absolutely. So let’s talk jamming and what instruments do you play when you’re jamming?

Lynne: I sing primarily. I’m most comfortable singing, but I play keyboards as well. So quite often, I’ll play keys and sing. I did, last Christmas, surprise everybody, threw a bit of a curve ball in there by taking my cello to jam, which everybody thought— So we like played Christmas songs, which really lent themselves to cello. So I thought, well, I just say that. But yeah, mostly, it’s singing and playing keyboards.

John: Yeah. But I mean, cello, that’s not something you stumble across every day, you know. I mean, I play piano. So it’s like “Oh, okay. There’s people that play piano.” But cello, it’s like “Wait, what?”

Lynne: Yeah. I’m not quite sure how I neither— I started playing piano when I was about 4 and then I somehow started doing cello lessons when I was about 8 or 9. And so, it obviously wasn’t my choice because children that age don’t choose to do anything really. They just do what they’re told. They get sent. Yeah. I got kinda presented with a cello and told to go to lessons, and that was that.

John: But I mean, obviously now that you’re an adult, you still like it. So, you know, it’s, that’s something that brings you joy. And so, did you grow up in a musical household then?

Lynne: My dad was musical, but only sort of by ear. Very intuitive. He always said he didn’t wanna go to lessons. He’d rather go out and play football or, you know, go and watch trains or something. So yeah, he had a good musical ear and just played by ear. Whether there’s genes involved, I don’t know. I find it fascinating the whole thing about whether you’re musical or not. I can’t even begin. If I had more time, I would spend some time looking into why.

John: Yeah. What’s weird to me is like I can play, I can hear things that if they’re out of tune, I can do all that from the instrument side. But to sing, ooh, I’m terrible. I mean, I’m so bad. Like at church, old ladies turn around. They’re like “God still loves you. You don’t have to sing it out loud.” You know, like just lip-synch it. You know, just Milli Vanilli or whatever you wanna do.

Lynne: Actually, fascinating, isn’t it? I don’t understand how people can do what they can do in terms of playing, but I know loads of people who play beautifully, who are great at jams, but don’t sing or won’t sing. And I don’t understand how that is.

John: I don’t know if I need like decades of lessons or something because it’s not a quick fix, but I can hear that it’s off. And it’s like “Mm, this is not good.” But it’s so cool that you could do both. That’s awesome. You have my superpower. If I could have a superpower, that and dunk a basketball. Like that’s all I wish I could do. Singing and dunk a basketball at the same time. Like “Ahhh” and then just. So do you have like some favorite memories either from jamming or from growing up?

Lynne: Yeah, it’s funny actually. So I came through the education system doing music. In this country, you do your GCSEs at 16 and you’re a levels at 18. And I did music for both of those. And it put quite a lot of pressure on it in a way because you can’t get to a perfect kind of standard no matter how much you throw at music. You do it in an educational setting and somebody’s gonna put a scale on it and put numbers on it and say you’re this good, or that good, or whatever. So I found it a challenge from that point of view. And I was in bands, in covers bands, and tribute bands, and function bands, and stuff when I was in my 20s.

And then I kind of went away from music ’cause I was like— I did that because it felt like the natural thing to do with my spare time because music was my thing that I did. When I was about 30, I just kind of drifted away from it and spent about 10 years not doing any music at all on the cello when in the loft and didn’t do anything. And then I had a bit of change of life circumstances and moved sort of somewhere new or back home, actually back to where I was born. And I saw this advert on Facebook for a jam. And I’d never seen anything like that before.

I’d done karaoke periodically once in a while, like once every couple of years or something. You find yourself “Oh, there’s karaoke. I’ll do that.” I was always happy that I found that fun. And so, I saw this jam advert on Facebook and that’s the first one that I went to. And I was absolutely terrified. I kid you not. I was extremely nervous because sort of complicated history with music I would say in terms of that pressure of coming to an education system and rehearsing. And also, when you were in a band, rehearsing and getting it right. I always used to get nervous in bands ’cause I wanted it to be perfect. It’s never perfect.

John: No, that’s the beauty of it.

Lynne: Well, this is it. We jam, all I do. And I’m kind of jumping into how jam works a little bit, but you just rock up, and you do it, and it works or it doesn’t. And sometimes, it doesn’t, but sometimes it’s amazing. There’s no prep. There’s no practicing. It just is this piece of art or this thing on its own. And also, post-COVID, I completely removed all of the sort of nerves, and issues, and baggage surrounding it. And I’m just grateful for it. And I just appreciate it because it turned us around, I think, in terms of our appreciation of simple things and how fragile life. So now, I was so relieved when jam came back after COVID. The various venues started them up again, and I was able to go back and do some more. And now, yeah, I just try. I focus on just pure enjoyment of it and just enjoying the moment. And when it’s going great, just enjoy it, you know.

John: No. I love that mentality. That’s so good. You know, that whole just being in the moment and enjoying it for what it is, and we’re not able to do that at work all the time because we feel the pressure similar to the pressure of music. It’s gotta be perfect. When you’re in finance, and accounting, and law, and a lot of these professional jobs, you can’t miss or we think we can’t miss. We can. If you’re a heart surgeon, okay, maybe then you can’t miss. But everybody else, I mean, what’s the big deal? But we put that pressure on ourselves.

Lynne: Oh, we do.

John: And it’s cool to see that you had that breakthrough, you know, with the jamming that take some of the pressure off. And do you feel like it’s different now? Do you feel like you’re a different performer, different player?

Lynne: Yeah, absolutely. Very much. It’s revelationary really, if that’s a word, to realize that it doesn’t matter, that it doesn’t add anything. To stress about it, it doesn’t improve anything. It doesn’t make you enjoy it more. It’s just negative. Just put it down. Just forget it. Nobody else cares. Nobody else is nervous. Just enjoy it ’cause life is short. Just go on. You got 3 minutes to do a song. You got however many songs you end up doing. Just enjoy them ’cause life’s short.

John: Yeah. No, I love that so much. And I’m curious, the 10 years when you stepped away from music, what was that like professionally? Did it make a difference when you came back to music in your job or when you didn’t have music as part of your life? Did it enhance things or was it just another thing?

Lynne: I think it’s hard to separate the work from the music, from just getting more mature and getting more life experience, and COVID, and all of the other things that have happened. If I don’t take myself back to when I was about 40 and jam started, I’d been through some sort of life experiences and got a different perspective at that time anyway, a really sort of dramatically different perspective on what was important.

And so, that happened at the same time, sort of moved back home and started going to jams. So I’d already got a bit of that change of perspective. I think that it has given me some really valuable things though and some really valuable tools over the last 5 years. And it changed me in a really positive way. I think that I’ve got a much better appreciation of other people and what they can bring to the table because I can’t jam on my own.

John: Right. That’s true.

Lynne: You can sit and play on your own, but you can’t create that experience on your own of just putting a group of people in a room or in a bar and going “Right, these are the chords, go. What do you make of it?” And then being amazed by what they turn that into. In work, I would say back in my sort of 20s, I was much more of an individual contributor I would say, much more self-reliant in work. I was one of those typical people who would only trust themselves to do the thing. You know, those people who say I’ll do it myself, which is how I want it done or whatever.

John: By the time I explain it to you, I could have just done it 10 times.

Lynne: Absolutely. That cliché. I’m completely that person. So I’m a line manager now. And my perspective now is very much how can I enable my team? How can I get the most outta my team? What do I need to do for them to help them? That’s my job, is to get the collective best out of the team and make sure they’re as happy and enabled as they can be. I do think that jam has given me this appreciation of other people and what they bring that is translated into my working life.

John: I love that so much. Like imagine walking in. And the team, you look at them like a jam like “Okay, you’re the guitars, you’re keys, you’re the singer. Here’s the chords and don’t mess it up. Everybody go do your thing. Let’s jam. Let’s do this.” You know? Like how great would that be at work?

Lynne: I could just imagine doing that to my team. And they’d be like “Oh, my God.”

John: She has lost her mind. And she’s talking to some American guy again. Like what the hell is going on?

Lynne: Do you know what’s wrong actually? Is they probably wouldn’t go “Oh, my God.” They go “Yeah, this is not surprising.”

John: Right. What took you so long, Lynne? We’ve been waiting to jam forever.

Lynne: Yeah.

John: But just that mindset though, if everyone just looked at it as jamming, no pressure. Just stay within the cord and we’re good. And I mean, what a cool place to work, a cool department even within a company. That would be so much fun just to think of it that way. I mean, I love that mindset shift of, you know, everyone’s bringing their own thing and we’re all in it together. Do you feel like talking about jamming, is that something that you do at work? Do people know about this side of you? I mean, clearly, I’m guessing ’cause you were like “What took ’em so long?”

Lynne: Yeah. They do. Yeah. I’ve been quite open about it. And again, I’ve seen a real change in myself somewhere between my 20s and my 40s. because in earlier in my career, I was very back and white about it. And I was like I’m here to work. I’m being paid to work. I’m not being paid to chat.

John: Right. Right.

Lynne: I dunno. I’m gonna possibly come out on your podcast here a little bit ’cause I don’t know whether I’m possibly a little bit on the spectrum on the autism spectrum.

John: Oh, okay. Sure.

Lynne: You know, neurodiversity is cool. And I think that I have a very kind of black and white perspective on things sometimes.

John: Which makes you really good at finance, you know, like really good.

Lynne: Right.

John: But yeah. But I mean, so many people think that way of there isn’t a charge code to get to know people, or we don’t get paid to socialize, or that isn’t my job. And as a manager, as associate director, it’s not my job to make sure my people are living their best life. It’s just my job to make sure they’re getting their work done. And it’s like, well, it’s probably more. It’s actually more than that.

Lynne: Absolutely. This is where I’ve changed so much. I feel now like that was a very individual perspective on things ’cause I’ve kind of watching— So there’s a that I’ve heard about where if you offer a baby like a sweet now or two sweets in 30 seconds time, they’ll take the sweet now or three sweets in 60 seconds’ time and they’ll still take the sweet now. It’s very short term. And as you mature, the idea is that you evolve and you start looking at the long term. And this gets me thinking, well, actually, probably what I should be doing for the company—

Even if you look at it purely from the company’s benefit perspective, what I should be doing is maximizing my long-term contribution to the business for the duration that I’m there. How do I do that? ‘Cause that might not be just work the next minute because, work, that might be take a breather. And actually, the following minute, I’ll work twice as well because actually I’m a human being. I’m not a machine and I needed a breather right then. So I’m now thinking. My possibly slightly autistic self is thinking maybe there’s kind of a curve where we—

We know that there’s a curve. We know that when we work continuously, we do 10, 11, 12, 13 hours, we’re gonna end up spitting out rubbish because we are over time. So there’s got to be a balance there between you can’t just keep on working yourself into the ground. So where’s that balance and what does that involve? And now, I think, yeah, I’ve certainly got to a place these days where I think actually it’s about people.

Every business success is all about people, and people need to be happy to be productive. If they’re not happy, we know if we have arguments with people or something goes wrong, it can affect our sort of motivation and our performance. And so, let’s try and make people happy. And one of the things that people value is social connection. So let’s socially connect as a team and let’s talk about what our ands are and what our fun is because that’s where we come to life a little bit. So, yeah. Hell, yeah, I talk about my hobby now, and I am incredibly delighted that one of my team has just brought a saxophone and started learning saxophone because we talk about it.

John: There you go.

Lynne: She says she’s always wanted to do it. So, shout out to Gabs for taking the leap and I’m thrilled. I honestly couldn’t be happier and I’m so glad that you mentioned it.

John: Get a couple lessons. You can come down to jam as well.

Lynne: Yeah. Oh, well, it’s on her objectives, dude. It’s on her performance objectives. 6 months’ time, she’s coming to jam.

John: That’s great. Her work performance objectives are to come to jam and play. I love that because it absolutely should. You know, that’s the thing. Like when I work with organizations, it’s like why are the coaching, mentoring conversations not starting with your and? Like what is it that lights you up? Tell me about it. And when’s the last time you did it and when’s the next time you’re gonna go do it? You know, like let’s get this on and then we’ll get to the work stuff later certainly, but that stuff matters. And I love that you have that as a performance objective because it matters. If she’s not playing the saxophone or being encouraged to play the saxophone, she’s not as good at work.

Lynne: Yeah, yeah, no, she’s not gonna be as happy. Honestly, she’s lit up. She’s absolutely lit up with this thing. She would cringe I’m talking about her, but yeah, she’s really excited about it.

John: Right. We’ll have her on soon enough. Don’t worry. It’s all good.

Lynne: That actually would be nice. That is in fact—

John: Oh, but that’s so fantastic. I love it so much. And how much do you feel like it’s on the organization to create that space for people to share versus on the individual?

Lynne: Completely. Completely. And yeah, I’ve got a variety of experience of working in different organizations. And I think it’s a lot about size. I think once organizations get really big, you don’t have visibility at the senior leadership in an authentic way. You don’t see them day to day. You know, you just see the vision that they wanna present of what they are and very cultivated and edited. You know, even if they say we want you to be authentic, we want you to have fun, we want you to do whatever, you don’t have a relationship direct with them and you can’t necessarily believe that. And you’ve got a layer of middle management that you’re not sure is entirely invested in that. And so, yeah, you might say that, but does my boss really think that, might immediate—

John: Right.

Lynne: So you’re on the side of caution. Whereas I’ve recently moved jobs into a much smaller organization and the senior leadership totally live it and it makes such a difference. I feel absolutely empowered to just be myself, and have fun, and make jokes, and have a good time at work. And that generates an incredible amount of value, I think.

John: Yeah. And it’s those human connections connecting on the ands and the funnys like you said and like the things like that. That’s where the connection happens. It doesn’t happen because we’re both good at Excel and work in the same department.

Lynne: No. It doesn’t.

John: Like that’s nothing, you know. And so, I love how you’ve created this place. You’re what’s your and come to life.

Lynne: There’s energy. There’s energy with that, you know.

John: Yeah. No, it’s awesome. It’s so cool and so encouraging to hear that I’m not just crazy making things up in a bubble. It’s like “No, no. In the real world, it matters to everybody.” Like just do it. Something that simple.

Lynne: And yeah, like I say, I’m not being all corporate, and cutthroat, and kind of shareholder value about it. Happy people are more productive. It just all works. It’s a virtuous circle, you know.

John: Exactly. I mean, care about your people and good things happen. Like everything good comes from that. And for some reason, we’ve typically built business upside down where care about our people is on accident last and if it happens at all. And it’s like no, no, no, gotta be a priority. And I mean, the one takeaway for everybody is performance reviews include did you do your and? I mean, it’s that simple. That’s it. The objective, the goals for this next 6 months also include something that you enjoy doing. And I love it. That’s so fantastic. This has been so, so great, Lynne, but I feel like it was rude of me to pepper you with so many questions at the beginning. So it’s only fair that I turn the tables and will make this the first episode of The Lynne Titley Podcast.

Lynne: Oh, I know. I know.

John: Right. There you go. So I’m all yours. You’re the host.

Lynne: Cool. All right. Okay. And what I’ve got for you is being a Brit, tea or coffee? I wanna know.

John: Oh, tea. I skipped the coffee train. Like I never got on coffee train. Like I never got it. And I do enjoy tea. So, tea for certain.

Lynne: I didn’t see that coming. I thought it was gonna be coffee. Fabulous. Okay.

John: I’ll surprise you.

Lynne: I’ve got a musical one. Air guitar or air drums?

John: Oh, wow. That’s a good one. That’s a good one ’cause I feel like I’m better at air guitar, but air drums is so fun.

I mean, it’s just like how many symbols do you have 14? You’re like what are you doing over here? I mean, it’s just like an octopus of like “Wow! Like I got symbols on top, symbols behind me. Like I got drums over here and like I got all kinds of—” Yeah. I mean, like I just imagine almost like a double drum kit where it’s just like stuff everywhere. So it’s just so much more fun to just like— Yeah, air drum, I guess.

Lynne: So you’re better at air guitar.

John: Yeah. Oh, Lynne, trust me, I practiced. Well, it’s more realistic. I think the air guitar—It just looks more realistic. But the drums, it’s just like so much. Yeah. You can go nuts with that ’cause, you know, you can’t see my drum kit. You don’t know. Yeah. I do have a bass drum up above me. What’s wrong with that, kids?

Lynne: We totally don’t know. We don’t know. Oh, you’re amazing at air drums, John. Amazing. Okay. This slightly longer. I can explain. You are getting a takeaway with friends, right? Like a Chinese, or a Curry, or something.

John: Oh, yeah.

Lynne: Share or not share?

John: No. No. No. You order what you wanted and I order what I wanted. And if you wanted what I got, you should order that. It’s that simple.

Lynne: You’re hard over on it.

John: Hard no. Hard no. Even if I’m eating with Hugh Jackman, still a hard no. Like hard no on that.

Lynne: Hugh Jackman ain’t getting your curry, dude.

John: Nope. None. Like not at all.

Lynne: Brilliant.

John: Yeah, absolutely. Well, this has been so much fun, Lynne. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”?

Lynne: Me too. Loved it. Absolutely loved it. Thanks.

John: Awesome. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Lynne jamming or connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 511 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. It goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and now listening to it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Josh Standley. He’s the CEO of DKK DKK Accounting in Duluth, Minnesota. And now, he’s with me today. Josh, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Josh: Thanks for having me, John.

John: Oh, this is gonna be a blast. I don’t know enough at all about 3D printing, and I am super excited, and I’m probably gonna order one right after we’re done talking. So, you get a commission. But first, I have 17 rapid fire questions. Get to know Josh on a new level here. I’ll start you out with a— This is gonna be a slam dunk. Star Wars or star Trek?

Josh: Definitely Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. There you go. And a favorite character in particular?

Josh: I’d say Boba Fett and The Mandalorian. Probably my two favorites.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Very much. How about your computer? More of a PC or a Mac?

Josh: I like Mac personally. But for work, it’s gotta be a PC.

John: Yeah. So, a little bit of both? That’s impressive, man.

Josh: Yeah.

John: That’s impressive. How about your ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Josh: Oh, it depends on the cone.

John: Ah.

Josh: And depends on the ice cream.

John: Yes! You’re a professional. I like this.

Josh: I got this chocolate on chocolate with chocolate. Oh, it’s delicious.

John: Oh, wow. So it’s like a chocolate cone with chocolate dipped?

Josh: Yeah. It’s got like fudge in it. It’s kinda like Oreo crumbles.

John: Oh, wow. Yeah.

Josh: It’s just amazing.

John: That’s some next level stuff right there. Like you could almost skip the ice cream.

Josh: Yeah.

John: Like “Sir, are you okay?” “I’m totally okay. It’s awesome.” You got chocolate all over your face.

Josh: Will buy one and I’ll eat like two a night sometimes.

John: Right. Right. There you go.

Josh: Don’t judge me.

John: I love it, man. So good. How about would you say more oceans or mountains?

Josh: I kinda like both. I’ve always wanted a cabin near a mountain on the ocean, which is kind of like— Duluth is kind of like that where I live.

John: Right. With the Great Lakes. Absolutely up there. Yeah. Totally, man. I love that. Okay. How about more balance sheet or income statement?

Josh: Ooh, I like the income statement. I just like analyzing it I think. I don’t know why.

John: Sure. Yeah. I feel like there’s a lot more ratios and stuff that you can play with there. Yeah, definitely. HOW about a TV show that you would binge watch of all time? It could be any time.

Josh: Oh, Parks and Recreation is definitely one of ’em.

John: Yeah. Solid answer. There you go. Solid answer. That show is so good. So good. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Josh: I don’t like any.

John: None. Okay. Right. Accounting is enough puzzle for me.

Josh: No. If you like puzzles, you would be like working on cars. It’s a puzzle.

John: Oh, okay. That is very much a puzzle.

Josh: 3D printing is like a puzzle ’cause you have all the different axles you have to coordinate to work together, so that’s more mechanical puzzles.

John: Yeah. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Or a picture that we’re gonna put together and then tear apart to put it back in the box. It’s like “Why are we doing this? How about we just skip it and put it right in the box? How’s that sound?”

Josh: The picture’s already complete on the box.

John: Right. Right? Right? There you go. How about a favorite color?

Josh: Blue.

John: Blue. Mine too. How about a least favorite color?

Josh: Anything super neon bright.

John: Ah, okay. That’s a good answer. How about favorite day of the week?

Josh: Actually, surprisingly, Mondays. I look forward to going to work.

John: Okay.

Josh: It’s not like work to me. It’s like a hobby I get paid for. I just jump from the thing I like to a thing I like.

John: Well, you’re living a good life, man. That’s how it’s supposed to be. Right? And it’s not all one thing, which is super cool too. You know, it’s several things.

Josh: I just gotta find a little more balance, this issue, ’cause it’s usually one polar end of the opposite. I’m still working on it. Once I find that balance, I think it’s gonna be great.

John: How about a favorite actor or actress?

Al Pacino. That’s a solid answer. There you go. How about a favorite cereal of all time?

Josh: I think Kix has been one of my favorites.

John: Oh, yeah!

Josh: Eating it dry too is just delicious. Yeah. That’s like a midnight snack, you know.

John: There you go. There you go. We got four more. For your books, more audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Josh: Real book. Always real book.

John: Real book.

Josh: Dealing with the computer all day. I want something tangible that I can sit somewhere quiet.

John: True. Good for your eyes. How about a least favorite vegetable?

Josh: That’s a hard one. I like a lot of vegetables.

John: Okay.

Josh: Lima bean.

John: Oh, there it is. Something rare out there then. Okay. All right. How about a favorite number?

Josh: 7.

John: 7. Mine too. Is there a reason?

Josh: Lucky #7. I think that’s about it I guess.

John: No, no, that works for me. It’s the most popular answer by far on here that I get. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Josh: Right now is my Boba Fett stuff.

John: Right, right. Is it like full-on head-to-toe costume?

Josh: Yup. I’m gonna be Boba Fett for Halloween. I’m gonna make an Ironman next. The full Ironman getup ’cause you can print it for like nothing.

John: Yeah, which leads right into talking about 3D printing. And how did that get started? ‘Cause, clearly, it wasn’t something you were doing as a kid.

Josh: I always wanted to be a mechanical engineer at one point in my life, and I just didn’t wanna do as much math. Believe it or not, accounting was easier to get a degree and then going to be a mechanical engineer. So I liked the way things work and move. And so, I ordered a full Boba Fett costume, which cost quite a pretty penny. And I’ve always wanted a 3D printer. And then I saw watching videos and stuff. I’m like I could have made this costume for like 300 bucks instead of spending three grand on it. And so, I ordered a 3D printer, and I’ve just been hooked. Now, I got three.

John: So you got the Boba Fett costume and a 3D printer, so like you doubled the—

Josh: Three.

John: Three 3D printers. Okay.

Josh: And then I went and bought 3darmory.com, which isn’t live yet because I need to wait to write off my hobby. So I plan to make money at it, but I don’t care if I make a ton of money. Just enough to break even and allow me to print stuff.

John: That’s awesome.

Josh: Yeah.

John: Can you 3D print a 3D printer?

Josh: Yes, technically, but there’s still metal components and stuff you’d have to put—

John: Okay. Okay. So like the box itself or whatever. I mean, maybe I’ve seen like some videos or whatever where somebody takes like a chunk of plastic and then all of a sudden it’s like whatever comes out.

Josh: You create almost anything you can imagine.

John: That’s awesome. And so, is it like a program on the computer that you basically do the drafting of and then spit it out to the computer just like you print a piece of paper?

Josh: There’s all kinds of free files. You can just get free files and use the file. Then you have to put that into a software. And then that like puts the lines ’cause we were basically printing lines on top of lines. So you could just grab a file and print. The hardest part is learning to like get all the axes to coordinate. Right?

John: Yeah.

Josh: But if you wanna do 3D modeling, then you have to have a different software where you actually build, but I mean like you can literally create anything.

John: That’s awesome, man. I would just be printing nonstop. And it’s something that you have in your office there at DKK Accounting

Josh: Yeah. They’re sitting in the office. I actually sold couches to make more room for the 3D printers in the waiting area.

John: Love it!

Josh: But you know, everybody “Hey, what’s that?” And then I get to sit and show ’em like “Hey, I’m making an Ironman outfit.” And they’re like “Oh, my kid would love that.” And you know, I’m hoping I can build the whole costume and maybe go to the cancer ward and show up as Ironman and make someone’s day. Like it just a fun thing to do, you know.

John: Yeah. Or just go grocery shop. Like why not, man? Forget make my kids’ day. It makes my husband’s day. It makes everyone’s day. It’s like “That’s awesome, man.” Like just start high fiving people.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah.

John: I love it, man. That’s really cool. That’s really cool. And so, I guess it’s mostly focused on like Boba Fett and Ironman type of things that you’re printing?

Josh: Right now, yeah. There’s other things that— tool holders. So like Milwaukee impact gun, you can make a tool holder or a battery holder. I’m gonna print something that takes the Milwaukee battery, connects it. And I’m gonna use that to connect the power to the suit. So like it’s not just printing too. I mean, it’s wiring and diagramming. And so, there’s just like this never ending deep dive into this fun hobby basically.

John: Yeah. No. I love it. That’s super awesome, man. It’s also awesome that it’s something that you share at work with clients and with coworkers. Was there ever a part of you that was like “No, one’s gonna care, I shouldn’t talk about it”?

Josh: I just put it in the office.

John: You didn’t even think about it.

You were like “Nope, this is it.”

Josh: You know, I got the helmet in there. It just immediately started opening up people. “Oh, is that the Star Wars helmet?” It’s created conversation just having the helmet in the office. And now, with the 3D printer, it’s like people are way more interested in that than they care about picking up their taxes, you know.

John: Right. Right. And why do you think that is?

Josh: People want a connection. I mean, it happens to be that you do some kind of service for them. But really, what they’re paying for is the relationship and the quality of service you give someone. You can get the same thing done anywhere else. So what are you really paying for? This my philosophy anyways.

John: Yeah, no, you’re totally right. I mean, 99.9% of all of our jobs are a commodity. I mean, there’s somewhere else that does the exact same thing. And so, to hang our hat on “we’re the best because we’re really good at what we do”, well, so is this place down the street. Like who is not good that they wouldn’t be in business anymore, you know? And so, the differentiator is the guy with the Boba Fett helmet and the 3D printer and is waiting area.

Josh: I think it really comes down to how you treat people. I mean, I think the bigger business gets the more away they are from the customer. And they don’t realize like the people probably who should be paid the most are the people dealing with your customers because that’s where all the money comes from. And if they’re not building those relationships, then they’re gonna go somewhere where someone’s going to give them that relationship. Just my philosophy.

John: No, that’s an excellent point. You’re totally right. And it’s more than just doing a good job and having sound technical skills. It’s the other things actually is what they’re paying for.

Josh: The soft skills I think they call it. Right?

John: Yeah. Yeah. Interpersonal skills, what have you, yeah.

Josh: You can teach someone to do the technical stuff, but you can’t always teach someone to do that part of it.

John: Amen, man. And I think it’s becoming harder to find those every day. It’s crazy. And you just care, you know. It’s simple, but not easy. For some reason, just care and then everything good comes from that.

Josh: Agreed.

John: And so, do you feel at all like 3D printing gives you a skillset or something that you bring to work? Like is there any of it that translates over either as it’s a complete reprieve from work, so it’s super cool to unplug and do something that’s fun that you’re energized about or is it something that, wow, these are similar skillsets that kind of overlap from the 3D printing world to the DKK Accounting world?

Josh: I think it’s more of a relaxed thing. I mean, it’s a nice conversation piece. It wasn’t my intention for it to be that. It just has become that, which is cool to know that other people have— You know, it opens up the conversation. It brings in the relationship, which is great, because half the fun is being able to get to know people and help them. But yeah, I just did it because I wanted to do it and I came down to it. I just decided to—

John: No, totally. It’s what’s been interesting from doing so many interviews, is how you’re doing it for the pure joy of you enjoy doing it. But oftentimes, there’s an accidental byproduct of, wow, there’s a lot of Star Wars fans out here. Wow, there’s a lot of Ironman fans out here. Wow, there’s a lot of people that have no clue about 3D printing and are just fascinated by it. And so, you know, you’re able to create these conversations and create these connections with people that are so much deeper and richer than if you were just really good at accounting, and then they came in and you gave them their financials, and then they left.

Josh: Even people who really don’t care about Star Wars or anything, they’re still interested in the 3D printer. Like what’s that? What’s it doing? You know?

John: Right? Exactly. So I think that’s what’s so cool about it is, you know, there’s always an extra thing that your and gives you beyond the intrinsic joy for yourself. There’s always something that creates a relatability factor at work, which matters, you know. Because at the end of the day, your firm is dealing with a business, but it’s still a human-to-human connection that happens, so you gotta nurture that. And I think that’s super cool, man. And I think it’s great that you brought it right in. You’re like “Look, I’m not even just gonna tell you about it. I’m gonna show you it’s right here. It’s running right now.”

Josh: It’s right in the waiting room. Too many people wait. You know, these people schedule appointments. So I’m like I’m gonna sell the big couches and I’m gonna make a little more room for my 3D printer cause there’s wasted space.

John: And then they have to walk by it. They see it. What is this? Oh, well, let me tell you. And you know, that’s great, man. I think that’s awesome. And then before 3D printing, was there something else that maybe you were able to create connections with people on or is 3D printing kind of the thing that sort of just kicked the door open on this?

Josh: It’s kicked the door open since I’ve done this for sure. I think it might be a different knickknack in the office or just something in conversation, you know. I think you can always find something to relate to somebody by because we all have similar experiences.

That’s just my experience. You know, I like people. I’ve tried a lot of things before accounting that I’ve been able to bring into accounting. Like I didn’t know working at a retail clothing store would benefit me owning an accounting firm, but it sure did. You know, like it’s great. I don’t know.

John: Yeah. And I love how you said too just having a knack or having something in your office that you see it, it brings you joy, but it’s also a little bit of an opportunity for someone to ask about, you know. And so, showing just a little bit of your humanness lets people wanna glob on to that, so that’s kind of where it starts. I guess you just have something small in your office and then let people ask about it and then see what happens. I think for people that are listening that are like “Well, how do I do this”, it’s like, well just bring something in.

Josh: You have to find some common ground between and you gotta build. Trust is earned, not given. And I just slowly build it over time. You get really deep, great relationships. I mean, we’ve had generations of families.

John: Nice.

Josh: I haven’t seen all the generations, but I’ve seen the tail end of the new generations coming in that the families continue to come, and you just get to know these people. And it’s a great feeling. Sometimes you’re like I don’t wanna see people.

John: Yeah. But I mean, it’s cool just to know that like you’re creating that connection and you’re touching people in a way that makes them wanna keep coming back and share it with others. And it’s that humanness that we often forget about with AI, and tech, and all these fancy things. It’s like, yeah, but we still gotta be human.

Josh: I think the AI and tech is great. It should give you more time to give you that customer service and that relationship. That’s where the power is because you can have something automate everything, but you still need someone to translate it.

John: Right. And have some empathy or be able to, yeah, tell someone in a way that’s—

Josh: That they understand because not everybody learns the same way. As a tutor in college, if they don’t understand this way, you have to explain it in a different way. And so, most of what I do is that now. It’s less of the work and it’s more of the relationship, and it’s great. I don’t know. I love it.

John: No. What what’s cool to hear too is all these different back stories to who you are, that play into DKK Accounting now. You know, the retail work, being a tutor, tinkering with mechanical things. You know, all these things that they all come together and make you better at your job. And if any of those you were to leave outside the office or act like they don’t exist or whatever, then you’re not gonna be as good. And so, I love that, man. So many great examples that you’ve dropped just in conversation where it’s like “What?! Yeah! That’s cool.”

Josh: I think too many people try to be the person that they want the person to— I’m saying it wrong, but try to perceive you as this way. But realistically, you win when you’re yourself at the end of the day.

John: Yes. I love that man.

Josh: Depending on who I’m with, you know, I work with a lot of construction people, we might swear because that’s just common in the construction industry. And you’re gonna relate to them in a way that, you know, you be your more self in certain aspects with other people.

John: I remember when I started at PWC right out of school and I walk in and there was a partner that— I mean, I don’t think he could say two sentences without a swear word being in there. And I was like “What?!” It’s like it doesn’t matter. Like it doesn’t matter. Like it’s not like, you know, one is less professional or less whatever. It’s just it’s who you are. All right. Cool. You know? And he’s a partner. So clearly, he was okay.

Josh: Look at Gary Vaynerchuk. He swears all the time. But you know, he has great things to say. I mean, he’s authentic. I think that’s what it comes down to.

John: Right. And if it’s your cup of tea, then great. If it’s not, also great

Josh: Could be your wrong client. It’s not your ideal client.

John: Maybe somebody’s really anti-Boba Fett. Okay, I’m not your guy. Like I’m not your guy.

Josh: We got someone else for you. Don’t worry.

John: Right. Exactly. Some Spock-type person. What?! But no, I love it, man. This is so awesome. And so, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe has an and that they feel like no one’s gonna care about ’cause it has nothing to do with my job?

Josh: It shouldn’t matter what someone else cares about. You should do what makes you happy, and everything else will follow.

John: Yes.

Josh: I think people get in their minds that— I love the John Lennon quote. The teacher said, “What do you wanna be when you grow up?” And he says, “Happy.” And the teacher is like “You don’t understand the assignment.” He’s like “You don’t understand life.” Life is that simple I think.

John: Yeah. Simple, but not easy.

Josh: You know, it’s hard. Yeah.

John: Yeah. I mean, the simpler that you want it to be, the harder it is. Our minds and everything. But that’s so rich, man. That’s so good. So this has been so much fun and I might need to go get a 3D printer now before you buy a fourth one, but I feel like it’s only fair since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning that we turn it around and make it The Josh Standley Podcast, and I’m all yours. So whatever you wanna ask, fire away.

Josh: If you have a superhero power, would it be flying or invisibility and why?

John: Oh, wow.

Josh: We did this in a psychology class and it got super deep. It was really fun.

John: Yeah. That’s a good one. Like I feel like flying would be just like awesome because then you could just fly. I’m gonna go flying, I think, yeah. ‘Cause invisibility I feel like could be used for evil.

Josh: So can flying maybe.

John: Yeah. Well, I guess that’s true too, but I feel like flying is more of like, well, this is cool, but then I can go places and I can go see things, travel, and all that stuff. So yeah, I’ll go flying.

Josh: Cool.

John: Hopefully, that means that we can still be friends. I don’t know what the deep rooted psychological thing of that is, but—

Josh: I don’t remember. It just became this huge like 2 days in the class we just talked about it. It was just super fun.

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh: And people just analyze and picked it up apart. I don’t really know.

John: Yeah. No, that’s a good question though for sure.

Josh: So my next one is would you rather have a cabin or a mansion?

John: Oh, a cabin. Yeah. Cabin like just unplugged just out there. Just, I mean, cabins can still be nice that’s for sure. But a mansion is like, man, that’s a lot of. You gotta clean it and like all the— like sort of windows a wash.

Josh: I thought about that.

John: I mean, you would assume that you have someone to do it for you if you own a mansion, but I’m sure I wouldn’t.

Josh: You can get a mansion in Minnesota for like 2-3 million, which is like a regular house in California. But if you had a mansion, like you would have to have staff to clean it. It would just get dusty in parts. You wouldn’t use like 90% of it. That’s crazy to think about.

John: Exactly. It just seems wasteful. The cabin, out in nature, just unplug and just go veg out. And I would fly there naturally.

Josh: Yeah. It goes into my next question. Would you rather drive or fly?

John: You know, and that is a really good question.

Josh: Both are great.

John: Yeah. Both are great. And you know, the driving is to see the journey and blah, blah, but sometimes the journey’s far.

Josh: Yeah.

John: Like I’m not driving to Costa Rica. Like I’m flying. Like one overnight, I’ll drive and it will be not annoying. But anything longer than that, it’s like I’m flying. I mean, unless it’s gonna be a road trip where we circle around and hit a bunch of places. But yeah, if we’re going to one place, then let’s get there and yeah. Maybe I’ll sit in the window seat so I can look out a little bit and we’ll combine it.

Josh: Might depend who you’re traveling with too. That makes a difference if you’re stuck in a car for days.

John: That’s a good point. Yeah. Yeah. But I did a ton of driving when I did standup full time. I had like a ton of driving. So I’ve certainly put in my driving time to even that out, so yeah. Well, this has been so much fun, Josh, having you be a part of What’s Your “And”? Thanks so much for taking time to do this.

Josh: And thanks for having me, man. This is great.

John: Everybody, if you wanna see some pictures of what Josh has been printing or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything is there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 509 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work, the who else are you kind of question.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. It was so kind of The Independent Press Awards to name it a Distinguished Favorite a couple of months ago. And the book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and listening to it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and Goodreads, and more importantly changing the cultures where they work because of it. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest Tonya Moffitt. She’s the managing partner at Merina + Co outside of Portland, Oregon. And now, she’s with me here today. Tonya, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Tonya: Thanks, John. I’m super excited.

John: This is gonna be a blast, so much fun. But before we get started, I have 17 rapid fire questions. Get to know Tonya out of the gates. And here we go. So this probably an easy one. Favorite color?

Tonya: Black.

John: Oh, okay. All right.

Tonya: It goes with everything

John: It does. It does. How about a least favorite color?

Tonya: Pink.

John: Yeah, it does not go with everything. That’s for sure. Do you prefer more talk or text?

Tonya: Talk. My friends make fun of me ’cause I always call them. I don’t text very often.

John: They send a text to you and then you call ’em.

Tonya: Yes.

John: Right. That’s great.

Tonya: Or FaceTime them. Yeah.

John: Yeah. Let’s get it done. I don’t want this back and forthness. I got it. Yeah. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Tonya: Reese Witherspoon. I think she’s amazing on screen as well as she’s an advocate for several children and women’s advocacies.

John: Yeah. Her production company is awesome and the work that they do there. And yeah, it’s really cool.

Tonya: And her books too. Like she has a book club. And so, I love it when you can discuss amazing books and bring people together around that.

John: No, that’s perfect. I love it. How about Sudoku, or crossword, or maybe jigsaw puzzle?

Tonya: Sudoku.

John: Sudoku. Yeah. That’s how I do my taxes actually. No, I’m just kidding.

Tonya: Same. Same. CPAs can’t their own taxes.

John: Right? That’s what I tell people. I’m one of the coolest CPAs that has no clue how taxes work. That gets that all.

Tonya: Same.

John: How about a favorite animal? Any animal

Tonya: Horse.

John: Horse, solid answer. There you go. Yeah, growing up on the ranch I guess goes back to that.

Tonya: Yeah. Exactly. Some of my best friends were my horses.

John: No, I can believe that for sure. How about a favorite movie of all time?

Tonya: Oh, man. I don’t know that I have a favorite. So my husband and I met working at a movie theater. So I have watched like every single movie.

John: So you’ve seen a ton. Yeah.

Tonya: Yeah. And probably heard or watched multiple movies way more times than somebody should watch the same movie over and over again.

John: Right. That’s funny. In college, I worked at the movie theater on campus, and it was in like a lecture hall that then turned into a movie theater for Friday and Saturday night. It was the reel to reel. There’s a little mark that ends up— like that I can’t unsee now when I watch movies at a movie theater. You start the other projector and it flips over, and it’s crazy. I mean, it’s so funny how no one sees this little mark.

Tonya: Or if like the film gets burned back when you did have film. And then you’d cut out feet of the movie and nobody would know.

John: Right. Right. Exactly. You gotta splice it together and then it’s like “Well, whatever. We’ll see.”

Tonya: It’s fine. It’s fine.

John: Yeah. Or if you aren’t paying attention on the time and then it’s like ch-ch-ch-ch-ch, it’s like “Oh, my bad, everybody.” And then you like run in the back and like—

Tonya: Yes.

John: That’s so great. Wow, that’s super funny. And like a really small percentage of people that are still following, but back on track here, John. Focus. How about a favorite number?

Tonya: 10.

John: 10, solid. Solid. Is there a reason?

Tonya: Just because I think most scales are 1 to 10, and I think that 10s always look good. Right?

John: Okay.

Tonya: Typically.

John: Okay.

Tonya: Yeah.

John: I’m gonna tell that to all the 1 people. I mean like, you know, 10.

Tonya: Just strive to get to the 10.

John: Right. Right. There you go. How about books? Audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Tonya: So audio and real book.

Like your book, I have the physical copy as well as the audiobook, and then I go back and forth.

John: Wow! Thank you so much.

Tonya: I go back and forth.

John: But not at the same time.

Tonya: Yeah.

John: It’s just listening. Oh, at the same

Tonya: I do.

John: Oh, okay.

Tonya: I’ll listen to it, and then I’ll pick up the book where I left off, and then I’ll like fast forward to that part on the audiobook—

John: Oh, got it.

Tonya: …’cause I like physically having it and I like being able to listen to it like while I’m driving or cleaning the house.

John: That’s awesome. Very cool. And thank you. That means a lot. All right. And it’s me reading it.

Tonya: Yeah, it’s awesome.

John: Okay. All right. I was like I don’t know how that lands. What’s a typical breakfast?

Tonya: Right now, I’m doing a diet. And so, protein shakes.

John: Oh, okay. There you go. That works.

Tonya: Yeah.

John: Very good. They’re a lot more filling than I anticipated when I randomly accidentally have one.

Tonya: And I was a skip breakfast kind of gal before that, drink 10 cups of coffee, so this is much better.

John: Oh, that’s definitely a big step in the right direction for sure. Oh, since you have the accounting background, this will be fun. And then you’re not a tax person, so this is even better. Balance sheet or income statement?

Tonya: Both.

John: Oh, full trial balance for you. I need it at all.

Tonya: Yeah. ‘Cause I like the point in time, but I also need to know where we were at and how we got there with the income statement.

John: Yeah. What are you hiding?

Tonya: Yeah.

John: You can’t just plug goodwill for everything. Right?

Tonya: Exactly.

John: Oh, toilet paper roll, over or under?

Tonya: Over. Under are psychopaths.

John: That’s hilarious. You’re over at someone’s house and you see it’s under, you’re like “We gotta go.”

Tonya: Yeah. We gotta change this.

John: “Take the kids. We’re out.”

Tonya: In our office, we actually have two rolls in every bathroom. And one is one way and one is the other way. Yeah, we’re all inclusive on our toilet paper roll.

John: That’s part of the new DEIA initiative.

Tonya: Yeah, exactly.

John: Yeah. But are your toilet paper rolls both ways? Okay. That’s beautiful. That’s so great. I’m gonna start asking that actually. That’s great. How about your computer, PC or a Mac?

Tonya: PC. I’m lost on Macs.

John: Same. Oh, I’m an ice cream junkie. So when you get ice cream, cup or cone?

Tonya: Waffle cone.

John: Oh, okay. Springing for the upgrade. All right.

Tonya: Yeah. Definitely.

John: And yeah, just because it’s fun, Star Wars or Star Trek?

Tonya: Star Wars. Again, going back to the movie theater days, like watching movies before they were out, like a week before and there’s literally people camping in front of the movie theater a week before, and we’re inside with like pizzas and beverages.

John: So good. So good. I got two more. Socks or shoes?

Tonya: Socks.

John: That’s a tricky one, right?

Tonya: Yeah. It probably depends on when and where.

John: Yeah. But socks are always fun. That works. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Tonya: Probably all of my family history and heirlooms that I’ve received. So like from almost all of my great grandmas, I have their candy dish ’cause I remember as a child going to their house, and they’d always have like ribbon candy and things. I’m definitely dating myself, but it just brings good memories and like it’s just something that I hold near and dear, is family heirlooms.

John: Yeah. My great grandpa always used to have the little peppermints. And so, every time I see him, I mean, I just remember that about him. And for sure, that’s really awesome. Very cool. So let’s talk all-terrain vehicles and how’d you get started with this?

Tonya: Well, essentially, growing up on our cattle ranch, we had 4 wheelers and 3 wheelers, which are super, super dangerous. And so, that’s kind of how we got started. I remember one time we were taking out what’s called a salt lick. For those of you that don’t know what it is, it’s like a giant salt block, like a foot by a foot. Think like giant— bigger than a basketball. So we are taking out salt licks to some of like basically fields for the animals because then they can get minerals and things when they’re free ranging. And we were on a 4 wheeler. So it was my brother, my stepbrother, my stepsister, and I. And we’re flying. We’re going very fast ’cause the faster we get this done, the sooner we can go back and play, or ride horses, or do whatever. And we come around a corner and that was the first time we had been on the road since the winter, and the road was washed out. Like, I mean, we’re talking like trench. Like I knew we were gonna wreck ’cause there was no way to stop that quickly on the old gravel dirt road.

John: Sure.

Tonya: And so, I grabbed my stepsister and I kind of like rolled/like jumped off of the 4 wheeler. And it rolled on top of my brother and stepbrother. And I was able to lift it off of them, but like that adrenaline rush— And of course, we weren’t wearing helmets back then. Now, we do. Now, we know that that’s unsafe and we wear helmets.

John: We didn’t even own helmets back then. Like they didn’t even make ’em for kids.

Tonya: Exactly. Exactly. But we all survived and we got the salt licks out there.

But yeah, that was probably the first time that, you know, a very vivid memory of being on a 4 wheeler.

John: But that adrenaline rush of I wanna do this more without the flipping part of it, but yeah. And it was either become a stunt woman or a CPA and then do this on the side, so wise choice. So now, how does it play out?

Tonya: So I think over the years, it’s changed a little bit. And so, that was back on dirt roads and out in the country. And now, we go to the sand dunes. And so, here in Oregon, we have sand dunes. There’s some in like Idaho, all over the place.

John: And it’s along the ocean, right?

Tonya: Yes.

John: Along the Pacific. Yeah.

Tonya: In Oregon, it’s along the ocean. We do have some that are more towards central Oregon and places. So there are some that are not along the ocean, but where we primarily go, it is along the Pacific Coast. And so, we have been very fortunate that we’ve met some of like our best friends. We have a sand family. That’s what we call each other.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah.

Tonya: A sand family. And we go with them as often as we can. And you know, the best part about it is we have these other family members now that are not blood related, but they do anything for us. And like my husband, one of our best friends that we’ve met doing this, he met them at school drop off. So he was chatting while he was waiting for the kids to come out of school with another dad and turned out that they liked to go to the dunes as well. And so, I think about a week later, we had a 5th wheel and we’re headed there ourselves. With my husband, Chris, I can’t ever say “Well, maybe we should” because then it will happen. So I have to be prepared for that it will happen if—

John: That’s awesome.

Tonya: …I say okay. Or if there’s an inkling of it being okay, then it will happen.

John: That’s hilarious. That’s so great. And so, now, it’s kind of a little more substantial than the 4 wheelers, right? Sort of side by side kind of concept.

Tonya: Yeah. So now, we have all-terrain vehicles and we’ve had RZRs in the past, which is made by Polaris. And we are waiting for a Speed UTV, which is created by Robby Gordon. And so, they’re brand new machines, which we thought we were gonna have a lot sooner. But with the supply chain shortage, hopefully we will get our new UTV soon-ish.

John: That’s super fun. But I mean it, you could only drive them on the sand dunes. I guess they’re not really—

Tonya: No. They’re not street legal here in Oregon. But in Washington State, you can make them street legal. And there’s other states where they can be street legal like if you put blinkers on them and like mirrors and stuff. So it depends on each individual state if you can ride them on the street or not.

John: Yeah. Here in Denver, I don’t think anyone uses their blinker anyway even though they have them. So I’m not sure if that’s mandatory, but whatever. But that’s really neat. And so, do you have like some fond memories or some favorite rides that you’ve done?

Tonya: Yeah. We’ve done a lot of really fun memories. And you know, I think the best thing for me is that the kids get unplugged. Right? So my husband and I have two children, 11-year-old son and a 14-year-old daughter. And they are attached to their devices. I mean, we are too, but they are as well. And so, being able to go places where there’s no internet, we went on a trip in Wyoming and went and visited some friends back there. And we rented a cabin, a national forest, like forest service cabin. And we parked at the bottom and drove our RZRs up to the cabin. The other family has one too.

And like there’s no internet, no cell phones. The kids thought they were dying and they were like back in the 1800s, but I’d say that’s one of my favorite memories just ’cause we saw all sorts of animals and critters, gotta go chop down wood. And you know, it was a unique experience. My son was on a top bunk and fell out in the middle of the night, and we all heard this like huge crash.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Tonya: You know, we still talk about that today. Like half the kids stayed asleep and didn’t even hear it. And all of us adults are like “Now, we can’t get back to sleep.” You know?

John: That’s amazing, but so much fun. That unplugging I think is really key. I mean, not just to show your kids, but even for yourself. Just something that’s totally different than work at all. And when you’re out on those things, I mean, you really have to focus. I mean, you can’t be sort of half thinking about work or, yeah, you’re gonna end up upside down again. And so, do you feel like any of this—maybe it’s growing up on the ranch or the altering vehicles— gives you a skill or a mindset that you bring to work?

Tonya: Yeah. I think the biggest thing is planning. So in order for us to be able to unplug while I am going on these vacations, and going to the sand dunes, and riding our UTVs and ATVs, it’s planning ahead. And so, letting my team know. So, you know, communicating with them that I’m gonna be gone and that I’m gonna be unplugged and not available.

And so, just making sure that I get everything that’s mission critical done before I leave. That doesn’t mean I get everything done ’cause I don’t know about you, but I always still have a to-do list. But it’s getting those mission critical things done before I go and making sure that my team has people they can reach out to while I’m gone. So I think that’s a huge one. I haven’t found anybody in my industry that does the same hobby, but people still ask me about it. So I think that’s great.

John: Which is great. You know, I mean I did comedy. I mean, it’s not like I was bumping into comedians all the time in corporate either. A bunch of people thought they were and they were terrible. I think that that’s almost— I don’t wanna say better, but it’s stronger because that’s the one. If you said golf or something that was kind of almost generic, then it’s like “Well, whatever. I mean, so does everyone else.” But you know, the UTV is like “Well, hey, yeah, what’s going on? When’s your next trip?” And that’s cool that people ask.

Tonya: Yeah. People ask. I also put it on my out of office. So like if I’m gone, I put it on my out of office. And part of that is I think there’s a stigma around taking vacation, unfortunately in corporate culture, especially for CPAs. Like most people think of us as nerds, but like there’s a stigma around taking a vacation, unplugging. And so, I’ll put like I’m going on vacation to do X, Y, or Z just because I want it to be normalized. Like we do need to unplug and do these things that we’re passionate about and like recharge our batteries, right, so that we come back and we’re a better team member and more productive.

John: No, I love that. That’s a great idea and something everyone listening can do right now whenever they do have their next break or what have you. And like you said, being more productive earlier where it’s getting those mission critical things done, then you know you can’t procrastinate. You know you can’t just kind of dillydally around ’cause “Well, I’ll get it done tomorrow.” No, no, tomorrow I’m gone. So, you know, I have to really focus and be all in now. I would argue you’re more productive taking breaks, as well as coming back refreshed and energized, and things like that as well.

Tonya: Yeah. I would completely agree with that.

John: Good. ‘Cause otherwise the show’s over. No, I’m just kidding. Totally kidding. Totally joking. But it’s also cool that you talk about it. Is it something that you’ve always shared or— ‘Cause sometimes people get in their own heads about, well, I don’t know if I’m allowed or whatever.

Tonya: Yeah. So I’m a very open person. And so, I talk about everything because I think that it makes people more comfortable around me. And even if they’re not sharing necessarily back with me, they feel more comfortable around me. And so, I do. I’ve shared this with my team. I have pictures in my office. I have pictures on my screen, on my computer. I even sometimes put it on my background, my virtual background, like in Teams meetings or Zoom now that we’re in a virtual world because it’s a conversation starter. And you know, “What is that? What are you doing?” You know? And so, it’s an icebreaker. It can be an icebreaker to break down barriers with either potential clients or even with team members.

John: Or current clients even.

Tonya: Yeah.

John: And why does that matter so much?

Tonya: You know, for me, I think it’s because those deep connections, it doesn’t matter. Nobody does what I do anyway, this riding on the sand dunes, but then they usually will open up and share it with me, what’s their end and what they’re passionate about. And then the nice thing is is that we have that connection and we have that deeper relationship where I’ve became friends with some of my former clients or current clients that are not a test client for any of you listening that know about the independence roles.

John: Right, right, right.

Tonya: You just have a deeper relationship. And I think that the trust is there way faster when you can open up, even with team members.

John: Totally. Yeah. ‘Cause, I mean, that’s the thing. I mean, there’s even brain science behind it, you know. I mean, in order to get the oxytocin, which is where trust happens, you have to be around someone. You have to talk to them more. So you have to be interesting. I mean, you can’t just talk about gas prices forever, or the weather, or whatever. It’s like you have to be interesting. And so, you can’t call yourself a trusted advisor or whatever, any trusted whatever, which is like maybe my #2 pet peeve right behind shopping carts left in the parking lot randomly. But it’s like “Ah, you know, you’re an advisor advisor. You’re not really a trusted advisor.” You know? And it’s like knowing all the technical work isn’t— It’s the human side of things that you really have to bring to do that, which you’re doing, which is great. And so awesome to hear that it manifests itself in your world and that it’s legit. It works. For sure.

Tonya: Yeah. I think that when you can share those passions, it makes it a lot easier, especially in the workplace.

Like if you’re a supervisor, or a manager, or an owner, whatever, it’s helpful when you have to have those difficult conversations with your team because they have that deeper level connectivity and you can connect with them in another way. And so, it’s more like a friend. And I know you talk about the brain science behind this in your book and on the podcast, but it’s more like it’s coming from a friend. And so, it’s easier for them to understand and take that crucial conversation or difficult conversation that we may be having with them and see it for what it is. We’re trying to make them better. It’s not that we’re trying to like push them down or be derogatory. It’s all about actually bringing everybody up to a new level versus pushing somebody down.

John: No, I love that so much. That’s so fantastic. And I mean, you’re right. And the fact that you’re living it is even better in experiencing that, so that’s so cool. I mean, you’re the managing partner. How much does that matter that people do take time away from work? ‘Cause the logic, the old school brain is “Well, no, they need to be working more, like why are you even looking out the window” type of thing.

Tonya: You know, I think it’s so important. I think that mental health issues, especially during the pandemic, have been brought to light. And I think, as business owners, we have to lead by example and talk about mental health. We talk about our paid friends basically, you know, our paid counselors, psychiatrists, things like that because there’s so much of a stigma around it. And as the owners and the leaders of organizations, by us talking about it, it takes away some of that stigma. And so, it is much better for everybody on the team.

John: No, I couldn’t agree more, and I love that lead by example kind of concept. Certainly makes it easier for the people to look up and be like “Oh, you know—” But even if you’re like in the middle, you have a group below you that you can model that behavior for. So it doesn’t have to be the top down.

Tonya: Even if you’re at the bottom.

John: That’s true. Yeah.

Tonya: Even if you’re at the bottom, you have to have something outside of work that fills your cup up, that makes you happy because like getting the 3 letters behind your name or whatever it is in our industry at CPA, it’s not like the day you get your certificate. You’re happier. Yes, it’s great to get it done and have that behind you, but there’s so much more to each individual person. And even if you’re at the bottom, like it’s important that you have some sort of external and from your work. I don’t want my tombstone to read best boss ever, best CPA ever, you know. I want it to read mother, wife, friend, colleague, mentor. Those things are so much more important than a job title like managing partner or whatever that may be. Like that is not what defines me.

John: That’s so good. You know, having that and then sharing it is the key part of it. If everyone has hobbies, but no one talks about it, if a tree falls in the forest and no one’s around, sort of a concept. So that’s so great and such great wisdom and nuggets for people to take away and really, really great, Tonya. This has been awesome. I feel like though, since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, that I should turn the tables and make this the first episode of The Tanya Moffitt Podcast. Dududududududududu. I don’t know. Some kind of song.

Tonya: Perfect.

John: Right. So I’m all yours and what do you got for me?

Tonya: Okay. Do you have any suggestions for an individual who has determined their current employer or supervisors do not care about their and, and it’s impacting their motivation and happiness, so they’ve decided to seek a new opportunity? What interview questions can they ask to help them find a better fit where they’re gonna be more successful within their chosen profession?

John: Holy moly! This could be like a whole series of episodes. Wow! Yeah! I think that it’s totally okay to ask “How does the organization perceive outside of work hobbies and passions? I’m a big college football fan. Who else that works here is also a big college football fan?” It’s totally okay to ask that. And if they’re like “We don’t care, we don’t even know anyone who likes college football”, it doesn’t have to be a random one-off. Just something that’s kind of normal. And then if they respond negatively, well, then that’s just gonna be like the same place that you’re leaving. But if they’re like “Oh, this person over here” or if they ask you during the interview process before you even get there, that’s my favorite thing. If you’re having someone come in as an interview, who’s gonna host them? Not just a random other person in the department. No. No. Somebody who also rides UTVs. That’s who. And then now, you have a friend before you even started. Just straight up ask because in this day and age, we hold all the cards as an employee and so ask.

And if they don’t, then you know what, this isn’t the right place for me ’cause it’s gonna turn out to be exactly like the place that you’re leaving. And that’s why the great migration is happening, is because people are like “Well, if no one cares about me, I’ll just go to the place that doesn’t care about me, but pays me more.” If that’s the only differentiator, then of course they’re gonna move to whoever pays them more, and then they’re gonna be there for 3 months and then go to the next place that pays them more ’cause there’s always someone that’s gonna pay more. But if you change the game and if you actually care about them deeper and more than the next place, well, then they’re gonna realize that it’s not apples to apples. It’s apples to oranges, or grapefruit, or something gross no one likes to eat type of thing. It’s that sort of thing, so yeah, but really great question.

Tonya: I know.

John: It’s your show.

Tonya: This is my show and it’s all about me getting answers from John Garrett today. So, last question. As an employer, do you have any suggestions for interview questions that we can ask to help ensure that potential new hires have an and outside of work since your research has shown that these outside passions strengthen relationships with colleagues and clients, as well as improves performance?

John: Yeah. Again, just straight up ask. Besides work, what do you like to do; or when you’re not at work, where might I find you; or do you have any hobbies or outside of work interests that have nothing to do with your job? There’s a pretty large law firm, the office here in Denver, during the intake form, your GPA, where you went to school, whatever, they ask that besides law school, what do you like to do? And if your outside work hobby is reading more law books or something terrible like that, then they don’t even bring you in to interview you. They’re like “You’re not gonna fit, so it’s futile to even talk to you. I don’t care if you have a 4.0 from Harvard Law School or whatever.” And so, ask those on the way in on the intake form and then in the interview. I mean, almost at the top because you’re around this person more waking hours than your family. So I’d like to know who you are and talk about something besides those killer macros you’re doing in Excel or whatever it is. And so, yeah, I mean, I hope that kind of answers the question.

Tonya: Yeah. I think that’s great.

John: And it’s also great as “For instance, I like to go to the sand dunes and ride my UTVs with my family. What do you like to do?” ‘Cause that makes it feel safe where I’ve shared. And so, now, almost the universe is out of balance, so reciprocity has to happen almost where I just shared mine and asked you. You got something, you know. Like you can’t just leave me. They can’t go “I don’t know.” And it’s like “Well, now, the world’s weird. Like you gotta say something. Like I’m locking the door until you answer me.” And also, just how do you humanize that interview and how do you humanize that visit and just make it more of like you and me talking here as opposed to formal questions? And I mean, that’s the thing. Like when I speak— it’s funny— especially to accounting groups, I’ll say “You know, do you give them a technical skills test, you know, like I’d like you to sit down and prepare this cash flow statement?” And I go “No, you don’t because you also don’t know how to do a cash flow statement. That’s why.”

Tonya: Pay now. Pay now. I have to do cash flow statements for a whole bunch of funds ’cause we’re in fund accounting with government.

John: Oh, well, so you do.

Tonya: I do.

John: Well, here’s how you do it. You go to reports and then cash flow print. That’s how you do it. No. But you don’t give them that technical skills test.

Tonya: No.

John: You give them the human test of like “Are you somebody I wanna be around?”

Tonya: “Are you gonna fit with our team?” Yeah.

John: Yeah.

Tonya: Yeah.

John: And a culture add, not just a culture fit, but will you puzzle piece in, but pull us in a unique direction maybe, but you still fit, but it doesn’t have to conform I guess, if that sense.

Tonya: When I have mentees and I’m talking to them, that’s one of the biggest things I talk to them about like I understand that you’re looking for a job, but it’s as much about are you going to fit and is this gonna work for you as it is from the employer perspective. And so, trying to get that across, I mean, it’s hard when you’re coming out of college and you’re like “I want a job. I want a professional job.” But it really is important to take that step back, and look, and make sure that it’s a good fit for you as well individually and for your family, or your significant other, or your just your lifestyle, whatever that may be, whatever your end is.

John: Yeah. Are you able to live your best life basically? And that’s awesome. Very cool. Some real hard-hitting questions on The Tanya Moffitt Podcast. Wow. All right.

Tonya: I know. I know. Sorry.

John: No. No. That was good.

Well, no, hopefully it helps. And you know, the people listening, so many nuggets from you. I mean, like golly. So if anybody missed anything, rewind and listen again. Really, really fun, Tonya, having you be a part of this. So thank you so much.

Tonya: Yeah. Thanks for having me on the show, and I’ve really enjoyed reading What’s Your “And”? and listening to your podcast.

John: Oh, I appreciate it. Thank you.

And people listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Tonya out on her UTV or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything is there. All the links, and pictures, and everything. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 507 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why this outside of work passions are so crucial culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and now listening to it, and writing such great reviews on Amazon, and more importantly changing the cultures where they work because of it. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest, Andrew Lassise. He’s the founder of Tech for Accountants out of West Palm beach, Florida, and the host of Tech Talk for Accountants Podcast. And now, he’s with me here today. Andrew, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Andrew: John, I’m so stoked to be here. It only took us like 4 months of rescheduling to like finally really knock it down.

John: Exactly. Well, we’re both busy people, man. We’re both busy people.

Andrew: Yeah. What am I gonna do? Book it the next day?

John: Right? Exactly. Exactly. But no, this is gonna be so much fun, and it was such a great time being on your show. And so, now to be back, return the favor. Now, I have some rapid fire questions though I like to ask you right out of the gate. Well, maybe this is an easy one. Favorite color?

Andrew: Well, go blue.

John: Yeah, mine too. Solid. All right. How about a least favorite color?

Andrew: Not just regular brown, but like dark brown. Like what were you thinking brown.

John: Right.

Andrew: I got toddlers, so—

John: Oh, there you go. Okay. Okay. Lot of just color overlap. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Andrew: I’d have to go modern day Leonardo DiCaprio.

John: Oh! Okay. All right. So not like, yeah, the What’s Eating Gilbert Grape Leonard DiCaprio.

Andrew: Oh, no. Especially Eating Gilbert Grape version. I was thinking more Titanic.

John: Oh, Titanic. The middle there was weird. The Beach, like stuff like that.

Andrew: Yeah, The Beach.

John: Yeah. The Beach was terrible. Oh, my goodness.

Andrew: Definitely Gilbert Grape version though. That was my first Netflix movie random.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Andrew: First thing I watched on Netflix.

John: Yeah. When you probably ordered the disc and got it in the mail.

Andrew: Yeah. The streaming was just like “Oh, by the way, you can stream movies here.” And I was like “Huh?” And What’s Eating Gilbert Grape happened.

John: There you go. There you go. Are you more of a talk or text?

Andrew: Text.

John: Yeah, just getting it done. How about a favorite cereal of all time?

Andrew: You know, that’s a really good question. I’d say today it would be Magic Spoon. Are you familiar with Magic Spoon?

John: I am not.

Andrew: They’re literally cereal entrepreneurs. Right? Like play on words punt, but they do like keto, low sugar, but they do like rebrands of like Fruity Pebbles and stuff like that. But it’s like adult version and they have it as like a subscription model.

John: Okay.

Andrew: It’s pretty cool. It’s good.

John: I’m gonna have to check this out. I like it. I like it. How about a TV show that you would binge watch?

Andrew: Oh, man. Everything that’s out right now, but I’m currently loving The Dropout.

John: Okay.

Andrew: Oh, my gosh. So good.

John: So good. Right? There you go. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Andrew: I’d go Sudoku.

John: There you go. That’s how I do my taxes actually. I just randomly guess numbers and then there we go. We’re done. I mean, the IRS is so busy. They’re not gonna find out anyway. They can’t even answer phone calls. Oh, here’s a fun one. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Andrew: Star Wars.

John: Yeah, me too. I’m the same. Yeah. Couldn’t quite get into Star Trek. I don’t know why. How about computers, PC or a Mac?

Andrew: PC.

John: PC. Okay. All right. I wasn’t sure if that would cross a line for you. I wasn’t sure how that would work.

Andrew: If you did like some weird like “Oh, like what flavor of Linux is your favorite”, it’s like “Well, you know, there’s a lot of conversations between like Mint and Ubuntu.”

John: Right. Exactly. I actually wouldn’t know what you’re talking about. I was like we’re just gonna go with what’s the logo on the outside of the box. How about your first concert?

Andrew: Jack Johnson.

John: Oh, okay. Nice. That’s solid.

Andrew: You’re gonna ask more security questions?

Mother’s maiden name. Street you grew up on and childhood best friend.

John: Blood type. Okay. Yeah, I guess that is a security question now that you bring it up. I never thought of that. This one is not though, and it should be a security question. Ice cream in a cup or a cone?

Andrew: A cup.

John: Cup. Yeah. I do the combo. I put the cone on top ’cause I still want the cone.

Andrew: You want the cone. You don’t want the mess.

John: Yeah. And my teeth are sensitive, so I can’t like just bite into ice cream. Like it weirds me out when I see people do that. I’m like “What are you? Are you an animal? Like what are you doing?” You’re in Florida, so this is an easy one. Oceans or mountains?

Andrew: I’m gonna go mountains actually.

John: Oh, okay.

Andrew: Yeah. You’d think ocean, but it’s like I take it for granted, you know. Like ocean’s right there. Like I don’t appreciate it ’cause it’s there.

John: Yeah. I’m the inverse in Colorado. Like they’re right there. I just stand in my backyard. I see the mountains. They’re right there, you know, but I have to get on an airplane to go to the ocean, so it seems special. Okay. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Andrew: Ah, well, the State of Maryland took away my privilege to answer Yuengling was my pre-2013 answer.

John: Okay.

Andrew: Well, I’ll have to go with White Monster. Would be the next answer.

John: Oh, yeah. Okay. All right. There you go. I mean, there are all kinds. So you know, who knows? How about are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Andrew: Definite early bird.

John: Early bird. Okay. All right. We got three more. Did you have a favorite number?

Andrew: Number 1.

John: Oh, yeah. Is there a reason?

Andrew: ‘Cause it’s the best.

John: It’s the best. Why did you ask me this? What?

Andrew: Yeah.

John: Right? How about when it comes to books? Audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Andrew: Audio version.

John: Audio. Okay. Yeah. I didn’t realize how popular that was until people kept asking me for that. And I guess Audible has a whisper sync, so you can listen and e-Book, and it will bounce back and forth based on wherever you paused, which is kind of crazy.

Andrew: That’s cool. I didn’t realize that.

John: So I have to up-level my game on that too when someone asked. It’s like “What? What are you talking about?” And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Andrew: Well, I own my children, so I’d have to pick them, and I own the dogs too. I’ve got receipts to prove it.

John: Right. All right. What kind of dogs do you have?

Andrew: We’ve got two Terriers. They’re yappy, but they’re great.

John: Yeah. Yeah. I’ve got a Terrier mix as well. When we did the dog DNA thing, it came back like Rottweiler, Chihuahua mix.

Andrew: That’s not right.

John: And I’m like I would like my money back. Like did you guys just pick names out of a hat? Like this is like what? It’s crazy. He’s clearly a Terrier mix, but whatever. It’s all good. So let’s talk the Sobriety, which I know is a big thing. I guess, how did that get started?

Andrew: Yeah. Like I used to think that like if someone is like a sober person, I don’t know, just in my head, I was like “Oh, you’re like that guy that’s like in high school or college that was not drinking then and continued to live his life being that guy that doesn’t drink.” Right? So that was kind of like the perception that I had in my head. And then what I discovered ’cause like I started drinking at 16 and like I really liked it, and I liked it so much that I did it all the time, some people would call that being an alcoholic.

John: Right. Right.

Andrew: Like “Okay. Big deal.” Like I blacked out like life. So it’s frowned upon. Right?

John: Yeah.

Andrew: So basically, like the thing that like really it sucked, but then turned around to be a big blessing was at January of 2013, I made the stupid decision to drive home in a blackout from a hockey game.

John: Oh, wow.

Andrew: And I recall I came out of the blackout and I see in my rear view mirror the red and blue lights flashing. And it’s like “Oh, okay. Let’s see.” So I’m getting arrested right now. And then I had in my passenger seat— I had a bottle of Fireball whiskey. So I knew I was gonna get arrested. And I was like but I don’t wanna also get an open container charge. So I decided to start chugging—

John: Oh, my goodness.

Andrew: …the Fireball.

John: Right. ‘Cause it’s an empty bottle then by the time they get to the car.

Andrew: Right? So I got an additional charge of consuming an alcoholic beverage while operating a vehicle, plus all these different DUIs and yeah. So that day, ask me then, like the worst day of my life like hands down then. And thankfully, nobody got injured or anything. It was just I was an idiot and reckless. And so, basically, then I got a lawyer. It was the first law office I’d ever been into. But like I’d imagined like when you go to a law office, it would be like the leather-bound books and the nice like very fancy— Like now that I’ve been to other lawyer offices, like what you expect? Right?

John: But not this guy.

Andrew: Yeah. ‘Cause this guy think more like a Hogwartz kind of like trinkets, like stuff all over the place floating.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Andrew: Like didn’t make any sense. And so, the guy, he’s like— I don’t know— like 180 years old, and he’s got this polka dot bowtie. His name is Gil. And he’s like “All right, Andrew, like you’ve got this DUI. Like this is really serious. You know, I’m glad you’re here, but I’ve got one question. I need you to answer me honestly on this.” Like “Okay.” He takes out a like a quarter. Right? He’s like “All right, now tell me, do you like magic? ‘Cause I take DUIs and make—” He does like this hand motion. “And I make them disappear.”

John: What?

Andrew: Yeah. So that was my first experience with a lawyer.

John: At least he didn’t take your quarter. Like he was charging you way more than that.

Andrew: Yeah.

John: But that’s wild.

Andrew: So he like put together like this whole strategy for like how we’re gonna beat this thing. Right? He’s like “You’re gonna preemptively put a breathalyzer in your car so that when we go to court, we show them it was a one-time thing. It was a mistake. You’re a good person.” Just obviously, I mean, you’ve got a breathalyzer in your car. You’re like “Don’t keep drinking.” Like if you do that, you know, that will really hurt our case. So I go to court with three self-imposed DUIs on top of the one that I got the breathalyzer on. And they were like “You have the choice, Mr. Lassise, of jail or maybe some time in rehab may do you well.” So I took the latter and really didn’t have any intention of actually getting sober or anything like that.

John: Sure.

Andrew: But actually, just what ended up happening though was like I was just playing the role of like a good sober person, right, just so I could like check the boxes. And they kept saying at like 12-Step meetings and stuff like “Oh, you know, just keep doing this and like your life will get better. It’s like life beyond your wildest dreams.” And it’s like but life sucks if I’m not drinking. So like, no, that’s not how it works.

John: Yeah. It’s tough.

Andrew: Yeah. But like what ended up happening, like kind of backfire of the century, was I was so convinced that like the whole sobriety/sober thing like was made up and that people weren’t actually like sober and happy. So I was like I’ll do everything you guys tell me to do in rehab, and meetings, and stuff. I’ll do everything. I’ll do the whole shebang.

John: ‘Cause you didn’t think it was gonna work.

Andrew: I know it’s not gonna work. It’s not gonna work because life sucks if you’re not drinking.

John: Right. Right.

Andrew: And then like 3 months into faking being sober, it like kind of hit me. It was like, you know, this whole faking sober is getting me like such a better life than like the one where like I gave myself DUIs before going to court for my DUI. Like maybe there’s something to this and just things just started getting better and eventually just came to conclusion. I was like, even if this is like BS and not real, like I am like objectively way happier faking life as a sober person than I was just doing everything that I was before. And so, yeah, just recently, I celebrated 9 years of—

John: Congrats, man.

Andrew: …not giving myself DUIs or anything even on weekends.

John: No. I mean, that’s super impressive, you know. And so, kudos to you, man. I love that, how they like Jedi mind tricked you into you were like “Yeah, sure, whatever. I’ll just go through the motions and whatever.” And then all of a sudden, you’re like “Oh, wait, I actually am a sober person. Look at that. Like that’s awesome. They got me.”

Andrew: Yeah. Like I drank the Kool-Aid. I definitely do.

John: No. I mean, kudos to you ’cause, I mean, everyone’s got something. And to be able to get your arms around it is not easy. And especially when it’s so pervasive and it shows up everywhere, I mean, you’re a golfer too, so it’s like people on the golf course. It’s like whether it’s during the rounds. It’s after the rounds. It’s “Hey, you wanna go for a drink?” And “Yeah, sure, I’ll get a White Monster.” There we go.

Andrew: Yeah. I think I’ve had literally every good reason to drink happen to me. My wife and I got engaged on St. Patrick’s Day at St. Patrick’s Cathedral in Dublin. And like if you wanna pick like a good time to be like drinking, St. Patrick’s Day at St. Patrick’s Cathedral right after you get engaged and everyone is like “Shot, shot, shot, shot, shot” that would have been a good time to do it. And we didn’t drink then. I’ve been at the table at like multimillion-dollar deals where everyone else was drinking and like peer pressure. It’d be like, I mean, now’s a decent time to like not try to rock the boat.

John: Good for you, man. Good for you.

Andrew: Yeah. But it just kinda becomes like— I think of it like an allergy like if someone’s allergic to peanut butter, which we were talking about earlier, which now I apparently am.

John: Right. Yeah. It’s like “Come on! You’re gonna take all of this away from me? Like good Lord.” You know, it’s like you still got cheeseburgers, so we’re good.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. And they do still taste good too, so that’s—

John: Nice. Nice. But yeah. But if somebody’s got an allergy, yeah, it’s all good.

Andrew: Right. Well, I was like so focused on myself. I was like “Dude, if I’m not drinking, like everyone’s gonna be like paying attention and like questioning it and all stuff.” And like just everyone kept living their life ’cause no one cares.

John: Right. Right. And I feel like that’s a lot of our hands or we think that people are gonna care more or less or whatever. And it’s like, no, like they got their own thing, you know. And we’re all worried about whatever each of us are gonna think that no one’s actually genuinely caring. Like we’re all just worried about our own thing to actually care about someone else, and it’s weird like that.

Andrew: Right. I’m the extra in everybody else’s movie.

John: There you go.

Andrew: And in everyone else’s movie, they’re the main character. So like I may have like a stronger role than other people, but like I am only the star in my own movie. And that’s the only movie where anyone really cares what’s like happening or like noticing.

John: Exactly.

Andrew: I can’t even recall like when someone was like “Andrew, you’re usually blacked out drunk and you’re sober right now. What’s going on?” Like I think I just was living my life and just no one cares. No one cares.

John: Right. But I mean, kudos, you know. And then somebody asks and then you can share. And is this something that comes up? I mean, you’re at these deals. You’re at these events. You’re at these things. And it’s like “No, I’m good.” You know? But does it turn to talking more about it?

Andrew: No.

John: Or is it more of just a past?

Andrew: No. Never.

John: Yeah. It’s just a past.

Andrew: No one cares.

John: We’re good. Right. There you go.

Andrew: It’s like “Oh, hey, you want a drink?” It’s like “Oh, no thanks.” It’s like “All right.” Like in my head, it’s like “What’s he gonna think about me? Maybe I can like position it where I time it to where I go to the bathroom when he is ordering drinks and then be like, oh, you forgot about me?” I’ll just be like “Nah, I don’t do it.” And they’re like “Cool I’ll keep living my life ’cause it doesn’t—” If anything, like it’s better. I like lost all drinking privileges because I was making everyone else’s life way worse. So like by doing that, it’s like I can just like participate in society and like not have to like wake up the next day and like look through my phone. It’s like “Huh, an hour and a half phone call with my ex-girlfriend. So that happened, huh?” It’s like text messages from people that are just like “F you. You suck.”

John: Yeah. How did I get to where I was going? Like all those things. Yeah, man.

Andrew: Yeah.

John: Well, kudos to you, man. That’s super hard and that’s impressive for sure. And so, I guess golf is maybe more of the thing that comes up talking with others?

Andrew: Yeah. So like the golf thing, I was maybe like 12-ish, maybe a little younger. And my dad, he was like “You have to learn how to golf if you wanna like be a professional.” And so, I was just like “Yes, sir” like as any good 12-year-old will do. Right? And so, I just started playing and it was something where it was just kind of like “All right, yeah, like I play and like I learn a couple things” and just kind of whatever I do with my dad. And then like some bosses down the road, They’re like “Oh, do you golf?” And it was like “Yeah, yeah, sure” and then just like networking opportunities. I mean, we’ve had some giant deals happen on the golf course. And so like just being like mediocrely okay at golf has had like a way bigger impact on like my professional life than the not drinking piece of it.

John: Right. Yeah. I’m sure that they go hand in hand ’cause I’m sure that the being sober while playing golf helps. I would feel like the old Andrew maybe wouldn’t have been part of deals, or invited back out to golf, or things like that. That’s cool that, yeah, there’s other parts to you as well. There’s not just the IT work side of Andrew. There’s other dimensions to you and you unlock them depending on if they ask, like if somebody cares, if somebody’s also sober, if somebody also plays golf, if somebody also does something else, then you have different ways to create those connections, which I think is fantastic.

John: Yeah. I mean, literally, like your entire platform, it’s like IT. It’s like “Oh, can you build an app?” And it’s like “Yes, we do ’em at computers.” And like that’s the extent of like where that is. It’s like “Oh, IT. That means computers, and you’re a programmer, and you’re a network engineer at Amazon, and all these things.”

But you know, like that curve ball and not like a raging alcoholic, which I don’t know if you he knows about IT people love to drink.

John: Sure. It’s the hard work, party harder kind of mentality.

Andrew: Yeah. It’s kind of like life on earth. I think everyone it’s just like “Oh, like no one parties like an accountant?”

John: Right. Yeah. Everyone’s got the extreme and then everyone’s trying to keep up with everyone around them. And they think that this is what they have to do to be successful and all of those things. None of it you really— You just have to be good at your job, and a good person, and responsible and then everything else is fine.

Andrew: As long as no one’s life is worse because of your existence, like you’re at least like doing good enough.

John: Yeah. Totally. I mean, we’re all trying hard, you know. We’re all trying hard here. And so, yeah, I mean, I guess do you have any words of encouragement to people listening that maybe feel like they have an and or a part of their story that they feel like no one’s gonna care about or it has nothing to do with my job, so why even talk about it?

Andrew: I mean, I think the idea of not just being characterized by just the type of work that you do and having those outside things and those outside connections, it also differentiates you. It’s not just the “Oh, I met this it guy.” Most IT people don’t golf and most of them do drink. So like the IT professional that specializes with accountants, so it’s like that twist right there is like “Oh, that’s different than Joe, everybody that does everything for everybody” and peeling back the layers. Yeah. But sharing that with people, I mean, that’s just connecting with humans in general, you know.

It’s having like the shared experiences and like sharing the vulnerabilities and stuff. 9-1/2 years ago, I probably wouldn’t be like “Oh, yeah.” Like I drink so much especially at work. Like that wasn’t a good look, right? Or even like 8 years ago where it was like “Ah, like I’m still kind of new in this sobriety thing, but it’s not really like—” Like if someone is like “Andrew, like I was really excited to like do business with you, but I heard about what happened in your life in 2013 and now everything is different”, like what happened happened. Like maybe you could Google it. I haven’t checked in a while.

John: We’ve all got something. And you were able to get your arms around it and become a better version of Andrew. That’s fantastic. And I mean, not everybody’s is open about those things, so kudos to you, man, and anyone listening. I mean, we’ve all had something that we’ve worked through and that we’ve had to get our arms around. And it’s not easy being human for sure. And so, we try to hide those things because we think everyone else is super human. It’s like, no, no, we’re all human. We’ve all got flaws. We’ve all got these things. And so, kudos to you, man. So I appreciate you coming on and sharing it.

Andrew: Yeah. You know, it’s been a journey for sure. And you know, it’s not all magic, everything’s perfect.

John: Right. Going back to the lawyer guy like there’s quarters everywhere. Quarters are falling out of my pockets. No, but you’re right. It takes work, man, and kudos to you. Absolutely. And you know, I think it’s fantastic, and I appreciate you sharing it for sure.

Andrew: And I’m curious, flipping it around, excluding mine, what is like the most memorable podcast that you’ve been on?

John: Oh, that I’ve been on excluding yours. Okay.

Andrew: Excluding mine. And I know it’s coming out of nowhere.

John: Yeah. That’s a really good one. Well, probably Indeed had me on. That’s a human resources Indeed. You see the commercials? They had booked me for their huge Indeed interactive conference in 2020 that unfortunately got canceled altogether ’cause it’s huge HR conference. So they had me be a part of like an exclusive podcast thing that they invite people to. And so, that was really awesome because that was my first foray into the human resources world. And it’s Indeed, which is like the Super Bowl of HR. So it was pretty awesome.

And then to the woman who interviewed me, when we were done, she said that she actually has a PhD in behavioral science and that she’s never read anything that puts it so clearly as my book does in that way of like it’s the people. It’s not the hierarchy. It’s not the structure. It’s not all these other things that we try to do to people. It’s what’s inside the people is what makes your organization’s culture.

And she’s like “I’ve never heard it like that. And the way your book does it is so clean and—” And I was like “Wow, that’s really, really high praise from someone who has a PhD and clearly read a lot of stuff.”

Andrew: Right.

John: So that was very encouraging to me to know that “Oh, I’m doing something that’s good and different, and people need to hear it more.” You know? And so, that one was probably one of the cooler ones that I’ve been a part of for sure ’cause it was just a big deal for me in a different space than I’ve been mostly.

Andrew: Yeah. Those cool ones are always like the standout.

John: Yeah, man. But no, I appreciate you taking time to be a part of this and thanks for, yeah, just shattering the stereotype. So it was awesome having you on, Andrew.

Andrew: Awesome. John, thank you so much for having me, man.

John: Everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Andrew out on the golf course or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there, as well to his podcast, The Tech Talk for Accountants. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

So thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use, and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 505 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. It was so kind of The Independent Press Awards to name it a distinguished favored a couple of months ago. Really, really cool honor. And the book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside work of passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and then writing such great reviews on Amazon, and more importantly changing the cultures where they work because of it. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

And this week is no different with my guest Maggie Johndrow. She’s the managing partner of Johndrow Wealth Management just outside New York City. And now, she’s with me here today. Maggie, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Maggie: Thanks, John. I’m really excited to be here.

John: Yeah. This is gonna be so much fun, but let’s do some rapid fire questions, get to know Maggie out of the gate. So hopefully, your seatbelt is buckled, hands inside the car at all times. All right, here we go. How about a favorite color?

Maggie: Black. Yeah, I know. I know. But as a former New Yorker, I feel like wearing all black is the uniform.

John: Are there other colors?

Maggie: No. There really aren’t. Unless they’re on your purse or your shoe, you can have another color. But otherwise, it’s black.

John: That’s awesome. It’s so good. How about a least favorite color?

Maggie: Orange. I despise orange.

John: Okay. Fair enough.

Maggie: It’s tough. I just I don’t know why it’s like aggressive. And the worst part is my mother-in-law loves orange. It’s her favorite color. So you know, she has a lot of orange in her home when I visit.

John: Right.

Maggie: Yeah. We fight on that one, but black and orange is Halloween.

John: Right. Exactly. I was gonna say it’s like Halloween for her all the time.

Maggie: All the time.

John: How about are you more of a talk or text?

Maggie: I prefer a talk to be honest. I grew up in the generation where texting just started coming out when I was a teen or going into college. There’s nothing like a good talk. And sometimes I’m driving a lot to go see clients. And so, I’ll always call someone hands free being safe of course and just having that long talk with a good friend is good for the soul.

John: Yeah. Absolutely. It’s so much better and faster too sometimes because if there’s gonna be a back and forth more than three times, I’m calling you. I feel like this is dumb.

Maggie: Or sometimes it’s like lost in translation, right? Like I’ve said something that I thought was funny and the person on the other hand thought I was being rude. And I was like “Oh, no, that’s not what I meant at all.

John: Actually, it’s rude you didn’t think I was funny.

Maggie: Yes.

John: So actually, now I’m angry.

Maggie: Exactly. Who’s more mad?

John: Right? It’s very northeast of you. I think you know I’m angry that you’re angry.

Maggie: And if we’re gonna be northeast about it, we’re just gonna bury and not talk about it.

John: Right. Exactly. Oh, my goodness, that’s so good. So good. How about a favorite movie of all time?

Maggie: You know, I’m not a really big movie watcher in general. And my husband loves movies. And so, you know, he’s trying to introduce me to them more. Okay, you’re gonna laugh. But really recently, I watched the Disney movie, Luca. We don’t have kids I just put it on with my husband.

John: Yeah.

Maggie: We loved it.

John: Yeah, that counts.

Maggie: So I wouldn’t say that’s my favorite movie probably, but I did love it and it’s what came to mind.

John: It’s a good one that’s top of mind, so that counts. Yeah, it’s hard to argue that for sure. How about puzzles? Sudoku, Crossword, or a Jigsaw puzzle?

Maggie: I like the Wordle.

John: Oh, okay.

Maggie: The New York Times Wordle. Do you know what I’m talking about?

John: Yeah. Absolutely.

Maggie: So I guess that’s more like a crossword if I were to choose that of those three.

John: Yeah, it’s a puzzle. Wordle is your answer. That works.

Maggie: I love that.

John: Totally awesome.

Maggie: Every day, it doesn’t take a long time and you can’t get too addicted to it because it’s once a day, you know.

John: Yeah. Exactly. That’s key right there. How about a favorite animal? Any animal?

Maggie: I love the foxes. I just think they’re super majestic, and they’re kind of you know loners, and they get things done. I just love that, but they also remind me of dogs. So I have to give a shout out to my dog, Ziggy. He’s my favorite person or animal I guess.

John: Okay. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, totally. That’s awesome. That totally counts. Totally counts. How about more Star Wars or Star Trek?

Maggie: You’re gonna laugh, but I never saw Star Trek in my life.

John: Okay. No. That totally counts.

Maggie: So it’s definitely Star Wars, which I like a lot.

John: Like default.

Maggie: So there you go, by default, but I also like Star Wars. I know people in this podcast are gonna be like “What?”

John: Right. No.

Maggie: Yeah, I never watched it.

John: No. Well, you know, it happens. I feel like at least Star Trek there’s the movies, there’s the shows, there’s maybe more ways that you could have accidentally stumbled upon it, but Star Trek counts like totally. How about your computer? More PC or a Mac?

Maggie: PC. So, just being in the finance world, I think when I was in Wall Street it was all PC, and you kind of get used to it. And I would say that like Microsoft Office is better than I think the Mac Office, right, if I’m an Excel junkie. So I do prefer PC, but Macs have their place. I like them as well.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Just in case they’re listening.

Maggie: Yeah. Exactly.

John: Yeah.

Maggie: I have an iPhone. Don’t come after me.

John: Right. Exactly. I have a simulated— I’m part of the Matrix. So your toilet paper roll, over or under?

Maggie: I’m not one of those that’s picky. I think I inevitably put it under, but I don’t care. I know it’s a big fight. Yeah. When my husband and I were getting married, they told us that we’d fight about it the most, and we have not ’cause I don’t care.

John: That’s good. That’s good. There are some people that will change it.

Maggie: I heard.

John: Like if they come to visit you, they’ll flip it around. It’s like you probably won’t even notice.

Maggie: That was insane. Maybe people do that, but I have no idea.

John: Right. Exactly. I got more important things to worry about.

Margie: If you’re a friend and you’re listening, please tell me.

John: This is more of an intervention, Maggie, than anything.

Maggie: There you go.

John: And the show is over. That was it.

Maggie: That’s the reason I was here.

John: Right. Exactly. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Maggie: I love the chocolate chip cookie dough.

John: Oh, yeah.

Maggie: Kind of classic, but I love the cookie dough pieces. It’s definitely my favorite. Can’t go wrong.

John: It’s good. It’s always good. This is a fun one that someone threw at me a while ago and I like to bring it back. Socks or shoes?

Maggie: Is barefoot announcer?

John: Yeah! Totally an answer. Neither. Yeah.

Maggie: Neither.

John: That totally counts.

Maggie: I feel like that’s been my answer for all of these things. No, I have to say probably shoes. But in my home, I don’t wear either. So I’m kind of most comfortable barefoot, but I guess outside you need shoes.

John: Yeah. Unless you’re on a beach I guess.

Maggie: Yeah.

John: And shoes maybe are more fun. I feel like guys have fun socks.

Maggie: Oh, I have some really fun shoes. Yeah. So like I said, I wear all black, but I have really fun shoes and colorful purses. So yeah, shoes for sure.

John: There you go. How about what’s a typical breakfast?

Maggie: I like to do smoothies, so I’ll do like almond milk and I’ll put in protein powder. Sometimes that’s enough or I’ll put in some fruits with that as well. So usually, that’s what I’ll do. Yeah.

John: That works. You have the wealth management. What’s more fun, mutual funds or bonds?

Maggie: Oh, mutual funds. Oh, man, especially right now. Bonds are so dismal.

John: Right.

Maggie: They’re not doing very well for anybody.

John: Like a savings account almost.

Maggie: I know. I know. And in some cases, like worse than a savings account with interest rates rising, but I won’t bore your listeners. I’ll stop there. I’m going on and on.

John: No, no, no, but I knew that would be a fun one just to throw at you like there you go. How about a favorite number?

Maggie: 12.

John: 12. Is there a reason?

Maggie: No. I picked it when I was a kid. I think I liked it because it was even. I prefer even numbers.

John: Oh, okay.

Maggie: And I just it out as a kid, and I’ve always liked 12. 12 or 2.

John: Yeah. Good number. How about books? Audio version, e-Book, or a real book?

Maggie: I love a real book. Actually, during the pandemic, I started reading again, so there’s another and for you. I was an avid reader. I stopped because of work. I got busy. And then the pandemic, you were home. So I made it a mission starting in 2020 to read one book a month. And I’ve kept that up. So I’ve read one book a month, but I do count out audiobooks as well because, like I mentioned, I’m on the road a lot, so an audio book is really convenient and I love a good story. But if I had a choice, I like to sit down with a real book.

John: Yeah. For sure. We got two more. Since in your New York City area, different toppings on a pizza? Load it up.

Maggie: I like a white pizza actually. So I know that’s probably like sacrilegious for some. So I love when like you put on some spicy sausage on there, some really good cheese. I love even like a goat cheese on there. And I love veggies. So you know, peppers, onions sounds to me.

John: Oh, man. I’m starving right now just from hearing this. That’s so good. So good. And the last one, the favorite thing you have ever the favorite thing you own.

Maggie: My favorite thing I own, I really mentioned it on the podcast, but can my dog count as my favorite thing I own?

John: Yes! It totally counts. I didn’t wanna say it is part of the question. That totally counts. And what kind of dog is he?

Maggie: So he’s a rescue dog actually. We unfortunately lost our first rescue to illness. And so, 6 months later, Ziggy really needed a home. You know, I wasn’t sure if my heart was ready. But you know, he tugged at my heartstrings. He’s all black like my favorite color.

John: There you go.

Maggie: And he looks like a Lab, but he’s a mix of Lab, Hound, some Shepherd. And he’s really cute.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so cool. So cool. So yeah. So let’s talk sports and more specifically tennis. How did you get started with tennis? Is it something you’ve been doing since you were little?

Maggie: Yeah. So I started my father enrolled me in tennis lessons when I was like 6 years old. And it was something that he and I did always together. No one else really played. There was a point in time where my father had to make kind of a decision. The suggested “Oh, maybe you can send your daughter down to like the Florida training camp.” So if anyone saw the recent Serena and Venus Williams like movie, King Richard, you’d see they went down there. And my dad was like “No. Most people don’t make it. This is gonna be a hobby for her. I want her to just focus on school.” So I just ended up playing most of my life. I probably was not talented enough to go further, but it was kind of cool to say that when I was younger, someone did approach me to do that. But yeah, I started playing when I was young.

John: Yeah! I mean, at 6. I mean, it’s like wow. I mean. If you watch a soccer field with 6-year-olds, it’s just a massive— like a Hornet’s nest of just running around. I mean, you’re out there playing tennis. It’s like “What?” That’s impressive.

Maggie: Yeah. I think the rackets is like bigger than your head. When you’re a kid, it’s actually really cute.

John: Yeah. That’s cool.

Maggie: You know, I definitely have a people pleasing personality for better or for worse, so I can’t say I love tennis when I was 6, but my dad really wanted me to love it. So I like begrudgingly would go to my lessons like dragging my tennis racket behind me.

John: Literally.

Maggie: But I’d have to say I’m so grateful that I can play because now it’s such a stress relief for me now.

John: Yeah. And it’s something that you’ve been playing ever since?

Maggie: So, no. Basically, you were in New York City. I think when we first met, we talked about it. It was really hard to play when I lived in New York, and I lived there for a decade. First off, there were no courts available. And if you did get a court, they were expensive. And frankly I didn’t really have many folks to play with. There’s not like leagues or anything. So once I moved out to the suburbs of New York where I am now in Fairfield, Connecticut, I knew I wanted to start playing again. So I looked up a couple of local places and just started in clinics and kinda haven’t looked back since, but it was interesting. I was on a walk with my neighbor and I was mentioning to her they I play tennis. She goes “Oh, I didn’t know you did that.” And we had this conversation because she was a softball player. Similarly, started when she was 5, could have played D1 or played in college and stopped. And similarly, I stopped in college even though I too could have had the opportunity to maybe play in college.

John: Sure.

Maggie: It’s something that was such a big part of our identity for so long. It was really cool to hear her feel the same way and then you stop. And I never stopped thinking of myself as a tennis player, but I certainly wasn’t for like 15 years. I guess it’s a good lesson. You can always pick it back up in a way. That’s why we have these hobbies. It’s just to do them for ourselves.

John: Totally. And I love how you said that of, you know, I never stop thinking of myself as a tennis player. I just wasn’t playing tennis. ‘Cause you can be a tennis player. I mean, you know, Serena Williams isn’t playing tennis 24/7. I mean, there’s actually times where she’s not playing tennis. In your time, it just happened to be 10 years. You know? But you’re still a tennis player. That’s still a part of who you are. You can’t take that away. And so, that’s really powerful to recognize that.

Maggie: It is. And I think for a while, I didn’t mention that I played because I hadn’t played in so long. And my neighbor said the same thing. She’s like “Yeah, I don’t call myself a softball player, but yet I definitely think of myself as one.” So again, I encourage people to keep that as part of their identity. And I was very intimidated to start again a couple years ago. You know, I didn’t know how good I’d be or how bad or it would be embarrassing. But ultimately, everyone is starting again I feel in these adult leagues in some way, shape, or form. Right?

John: Yeah.

Maggie: So everyone was really open minded, and it led to me meeting new people in the new town I was in, and it’s been awesome.

John: Just watch out for the 6-year-olds. They’ll sneak up on you.

Maggie: Oh, they will. Yeah.

John: I don’t wanna play any of them because they’ll beat me and it will be terrible.

Maggie: Well, the first time I ever beat my dad was a sad moment for him that’s for sure.

John: Right? Right? He’s like “I was kind of letting you at first, but then I had to try and then you won.” It’s like “Oh!”

Maggie: Exactly. Exactly. I think any parent who has a kid can appreciate that when the student surpasses the teacher.

John: Yeah. And then it’s like “Er, uh, uh-oh.” That’s really cool though, but like do you have any more rewarding moments or some of your favorite moments besides the first time beating your dad? I’m sure it ranks up there.

Maggie: Yeah. Kind of in the context of What’s Your “And”?, it’s so funny. You know, we don’t have a lot of service when I play tennis. We’re in this like bubble, and you can’t really check your cell phone. So walking in, I was checking an email for work because I do take an hour out of my work day to do this once a week.

John: Nice.

Maggie: Yeah. Because it’s the only time everyone complies, so it’s on my calendar. You know, my colleagues know that I can’t have a meeting at that time, but I walked in and I got this annoying email from a client that really made me mad.

So I came in, couldn’t respond (I had no service), and I started playing. And all of the women that I play with started laughing and they’re like “You should get more bad e-mails. This is the best you’ve played yet.” So, you know, that was a good moment I felt because I was like “You know what? This clearly showed I should be doing this more because it’s getting my frustration out.”

John: Yeah. Right? I mean, at the very least, it gives you a break from more work or a reactionary response. Do you feel like there’s other skills that come to work from your tennis playing?

Maggie: Yeah. Absolutely. So it was funny. As I mentioned to you, I was kind of talking to my husband. I said, “I don’t know. I have a lot of hobbies. Which one should I talk about?” And he was like “You should definitely talk about tennis” because— He goes “At work, you’re really collaborative.” Right? I’m always listening a lot to my clients or collaborating together with maybe other professionals on their financial plans or their investments. I have to be really collaborative at work, and tennis is the one place where I’m super independent, right, because I’m playing by myself. You’re on your own team.

There’s no one else on your team unless you’re playing doubles. There’s only one other person on your team. And I think it develops a different side of me that’s also important because now I own my firm and I have to be that leader. And so, to make those really quick decisions on the court, right, and it’s amazing when you’ve done something for a long time, I know where the ball’s is supposed to go. I know what I did wrong when the ball doesn’t go there. I can see the openings. I think that’s something that you learn when you’ve done something for a long time.

So tennis has allowed me to remind myself to be independent and to trust what I know, which is important for work. It allows me to develop a part that I don’t use as much at work or have in the past, but need to now. And lastly, I think it reminds me to be a little humble. I played tennis since I was 6 years old. So yeah, now I can tell where the ball is supposed to go and why, but it took me a long time to develop that. So, you know, in a new role where you’re managing a lot of new people, it might take a little bit of time before you know how to make that shot.

John: That’s awesome. And even when you do know, sometimes it doesn’t go.

Maggie: It doesn’t go.

John: We’re human, you know.

Maggie: Yeah. Exactly.

John: It’s like “What do you want from me?”

Maggie: Exactly. Exactly.

John: That’s, man, so powerful. And I mean, it’s not why you play tennis, but it’s cool that there’s these byproducts that spill over into work because you are a tennis player. I mean, for you to go to work not as a tennis player as part of that would be crazy. Like you can’t do that. You can’t unwind it out, you know.

Maggie: Absolutely. And I mean, it’s opened up conversations with my team to say “What do you like to do?” Right? So I learned that a team member loves taking walks with her dog and also being on her spin bike and another one likes rock climbing. Another one is doing aqua aerobics. It facilitated this conversation of like “Oh, yeah, I have hobbies too.” And the fact that they’re seeing me kind of the leader of the team take time out during the day to do that, you know, if any of them came to me and said “Hey, I would love to like leave early once a week to go rock climb”, I’m sure we can figure a way to do that.

So I think it’s so important to lead by example. Perhaps in the past I didn’t have those sorts of examples where you could do that, which also led me to not be able to play tennis, for example, when I was in New York, but it’s so important to be that leader and show your colleagues that it is important to do these other things. So it’s facilitated conversations and encourage others to pick up their hobbies.

John: I love that so much, so much because you’re right. I mean, I remember when I graduated from Notre Dame, started PricewaterhouseCoopers, and then you start to model behavior of the partners because that’s “success.”

Maggie: Yeah. That’s your track.

John: Yeah. And then a little bit in, I started to be like “Well, this isn’t actually me. Like there’s more to me that I can bring to this than whatever going through the motions I’m doing right now.” And so, it’s really powerful for leaders to remember what it was like to be 22, and graduating college, and getting your first corporate job, and how influenced you were by those leaders, and how influencing for good you could do now. And I love that you recognize that and are doing that. That’s really cool.

Maggie: Yeah. Absolutely. It’s kind of what I always say when you’ve had moments where you wish it was different, you take those experiences and apply them, and hopefully create a better work environment for your people, for your colleagues. So yeah, it’s really important. Absolutely.

John: No, I love that so much. And I guess how much is it on the organization to create that space or how much is it on the individual to maybe just with their peers start a little small circle?

Maggie: Yeah. I mean, I think if your organization doesn’t have leaders doing that, then you don’t think you can. Right? So definitely needs to come from the top, at the very least a very honest conversation saying “Hey, it’s okay if you leave work on time, God forbid.”

John: Right?

Maggie: “Or leave a little bit early. Just keep the lines of communication open and go and pursue what you wanna do. I’m not saying forget about your work.”

John: Oh, not at all. Not at all.

Maggie: “But I am saying create that space rather for the ability to do your hobbies.” And again, like it facilitated these conversations. Now, I’m not gonna force somebody to go and do their hobby, but they know that if they wanted to, they could come to me and we could talk about it.

John: Yeah. No. I mean, it’s so important, but imagine if— Like this is my dream, is where like the organizations that have like billable hours or whatever where there’s actually passion hours. Like you have a minimum number of passion hours that you hit a year because if you’re not playing tennis enough, then you’re not good at your job. Period. And you know, that matters.

Maggie: Totally. I mean, I’ve heard of firms that actually tell folks that don’t take their vacation— They penalize them almost for not taking their vacation.

John: Right. Similar. Yeah.

Maggie: Similar. I mean, if you’re burnt out, if you’re not doing things that make you happy, then what’s the point of the office, right? And you’re certainly not gonna bring your best self to work. So I love that idea, you know, of passion hours. And not to mention, there are great opportunities when you are doing your hobbies. So for example, I met several women when I was playing tennis and we decided to have a kind of wine and hors d’oeuvres night one day after tennis. And then inevitably, the conversation turned around to what do you do and people found out I manage money and financial plan. And all of these questions came up about that. So I got to do my job while doing something that I also loved. And I think that that happens more often than not. I mean, traditionally, you’ll hear about folks on the golf course making deals or whatever, but I think that there’s a lot of other ways these days where you can—

John: Always.

Maggie: …have these conversations.

John: Absolutely. Because, I mean, that’s the thing, is you know who else is human? Clients and coworkers.

Maggie: 100%.

John: And they have other dimensions to who they are just like you. And if you can create that connection on an outside of work thing, I find that it’s stronger, number one. But number two, the work conversation then so much easier and less awkward, you know. It’s not sales-y. It’s “Hey, we’re both tennis friends. And now, we’re just hanging out talking.”

Maggie: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I like you said, I think it makes such a deep relationship with clients too. So one of my colleagues, Anne, is crocheting. Right? So she does these beautiful crochet pieces, and she started making little baby booties. And now, we send them to our clients when they have a grandchild or when they have a child.

John: Perfect. Yes.

Maggie: Do you know what a conversation starter that is and how meaningful that is for people? It’s just something she started doing on the side when she was pursuing her hobbies and her passion. So to your point, I think it’s a great conversation starter, a great connector, and can really just create lasting relationships.

John: I mean, how many other wealth management companies are sending handmade internally baby booties when you have a new baby? Like yours and that’s it. I think it’s a list of one. But you know, somebody else wants to make cookies. Here’s cookies. But the person who’s doing the crocheting is lighting up and excited, and then the person who is getting it is excited. You’re excited. Like it’s a win, win, win all around. Man, that’s so perfect. I love that so much. That’s awesome. That’s so great. And so, I guess do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that has an and maybe feels like no one’s going to care because it has nothing to do with my work?

Maggie: Yeah. I mean, I sort of felt that way when I asked to be on here. I said, “Oh, tennis is—” I said that to you. “That’s not that special.” But as we started talking, it’s very clear how special it is to me both for stress relief, connector, meeting new people, and developing skills. So I would say don’t sell yourself short. I also would say if your and was something you did a long time ago, it’s never too late to get back on it as my story shows you. It’s truly the thing I look forward to most every single week. And so, give it a shot. I’m sure there’s a local parks and rec or something that you can try.

John: That’s great. That’s so perfect. You’re good at your job. You like your job, all that, but what you look forward to is the and. And we’re all just being honest here. Everyone has those things. So I love that so much. And I feel like before we wrap this up though, it’s only fair that I turn the tables and make this the first episode of The Maggie Johndrow Podcast.

Maggie: There you go.

John: So yeah, I’m all yours. You’re the host. Fire away.

Maggie: Okay. So the way we connected is that you use to also live in New York.

John: Yeah.

Maggie: So my question is twofold. One, what was your favorite thing about living in New York? And two, and it might be the same thing, what do you miss the most?

John: Oh, yeah, it is gonna be the same thing. And it’s pizza and bagels. Oh, man. Yeah, I don’t know if it’s the water or what. But man, it’s so much better in New York.

Maggie: I hear that it is the water or some people think. My in-laws live in Florida part time. And apparently, there’s someone down in Florida literally shipping the water in from New York to try to recreate bagels.

John: Yeah.

Maggie: So you’re not alone in that.

John: Right. And no, that’s definitely what I miss the most, is pizza and bagels. The other food is still good, but you can get a good steak and you can get good Italian, but the pizza and bagels, which, yeah, so good.

Maggie: Yeah, that’s great. And so, I guess now you’re out in Colorado. What do you like the most about there?

John: Colorado… That’s a great question. It’s quiet.

Maggie: Very not New York.

John: The sun is always out. Yeah, very not New York. It’s always sunny. It’s like 300+ days of sunshine.

Maggie: Wow.

John: And there’s no humidity. That is my favorite part of it. I didn’t realize because I grew up mostly Midwest, East Coast. I know, in the summer, humidity is gross because you sweat more and whatever. But in the winter, humidity is what makes it feel like bone chilling cold ’cause here in Denver, it could be 35 degrees and it’s a dry cold, which I didn’t know was a thing. And I’ll be wearing a T-shirt and a puffer coat and be totally fine in the 30s because sun’s out, there’s no humidity, and it’s great.

Maggie: Wow.

John: And Denver is also like against the mountains. So up in the mountains, it gets a ton of snow. But in Denver, not as much. It’s pretty moderate. So we definitely get snow, but not the kind of snow that sticks around for 2 weeks like in New York.

Maggie: Oh, wow. Wow. I didn’t realize that because I ski a lot. And so, I always think of Colorado is lots of snow, so I didn’t realize the city can get as much.

John: Up in the mountains, totally.

Maggie: Yeah.

John: Yeah. Yeah. And then the roads and the sidewalks melt pretty quickly because they’re warm from the sun, and it’s like a movie set. It’s kind of funky.

Maggie: That’s incredible.

John: Yeah.

Maggie: Another question. Skiing, or snowboarding, or some other winter sport?

John: Yeah. Snowboarding for me. I feel like skiing is too many X, Y, Z axes like on both legs where snowboarding at least we’re both locked in, and it’s pretty much like wrists and knees are going to be what goes, but yes, snowboarding for me.

Maggie: My sister-in-law was telling me she’s tried both, and she liked snowboarding better too for the same reason. Too many moving limbs, right? And she’s like “When I need to slow down, I just plop my butt on the snow.”

John: Exactly. You just go down. Yeah. Exactly.

Maggie: Just go down.

John: That’s great.

Maggie: So that’s fair. That’s fair.

John: Totally. That’s awesome. You got one more?

Maggie: I do.

John: Okay.

Maggie: So we spoke about how at one point in your life you were a comedian, not a comic.

John: Right.

Maggie: A comedian. What was the most memorable performance that you ever gave?

John: Oh, wow. I mean, so many. I mean, probably the cooler ones like opening for the band, Train, in front—

Maggie: Hmm, that’s really cool.

John: …of more people that live in my hometown. That’s pretty surreal. Like you’re telling the joke. And by the time it gets to the last row, and then they laugh, and then the last comes back to me, I’ve started the next joke already.

Maggie: Wow. That’s incredible.

John: Yeah. It’s a little bit of a different thing. Opening for Louie Anderson at the Borgata in Atlantic city for Friday and Saturday night shows was pretty cool. My parents flew out and stayed in like a suite and like all that, and that was pretty cool. Even like the very first paid emcee week was in Madison, Wisconsin at the comedy club on State Street. And my parents drove up from St. Louis and came to the Saturday night shows. And I was doing the whole week, but yeah. I mean, the first time you’re getting paid. Like I actually still have— because, of course, I took the check into work and I found some blue paper, and I made a photocopy of the check. $125 for 5 shows. So I still have a photocopy of the check of my very first paid— I mean, I got paid to tell jokes. This is crazy.

Maggie: There is nothing like landing your first client, or your first gig, or whatever it may be where someone actually pays you to do something that you think you’re good at. Right? There’s no greater feeling than that.

John: Yeah. You’re not crazy. Like I can do this. Okay, cool.

Maggie: I can do this. Yeah. That’s really cool.

John: Or even just for fun.

Maggie: It reminds me of The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. So while I’m not a big movie person, I love the shows and, yeah, that reminds me of, you know— I don’t know if you’ve watched it, but she’s—

John: Oh, totally.

Maggie: …trying to be a comedian and yeah.

John: Right? It’s a great show. It’s a little bit frustrating because she’s killing it out front and I’m like “This is not how it starts.”

Maggie: This is not how it starts.

John: “This is a lie.” But it’s a show, so whatever.

Maggie: Yeah. Yeah.

John: But it’s cool to see all the stuff that she deals with and then, yeah, she’s running it to Lenny Bruce, and she’s all this stuff. Yeah, it’s a cool show to just put to history.

Maggie: Other than it doesn’t start that good when you’re first starting out, would you say it’s an accurate show or not really?

John: Yeah. Well, I mean, it was also a different time when comedy was kind of novel and there weren’t as many comedians or even the clubs. You know, when disco started to go down is when, well, what are you gonna do with all these disco clubs and these whatever?

And it’s like, okay, we’ll make ’em comedy clubs type of thing. And so, it’s like the late ’70s, mid-’70s I guess when that started to blow up and yeah. I mean, it’s a hard life. That’s for sure. It’s definitely not easy.

Maggie: I think that’s portrayed for sure.

John: Yeah. For sure. Well, thanks so much, Maggie. It was so cool having you be a part of What’s Your “And”?

Maggie: Oh, thank you. I’m so glad I could contribute.

John: Everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Maggie on the tennis courts or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click the big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture and don’t forget to check out the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 503 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And normally. now is when I plug the book, What’s Your “And”?, it’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. But I’d like to let you know about Michael Puck who was a guest on What’s Your “And”? and has created globaldogart.com. He’s a dog photographer on the side and loves doing that. And he teamed up with a bunch of other dog photographers all over the world to create globaldogart.com. Research has confirmed that pictures of dogs increase our well-being, reduce stress, and promote trusting relationships in business settings.

So if you like to check out what’s available there for your office or your home office, go to globaldogart.com. And the best part is is that 100% of the proceeds go to save 1 million dogs by 2030. Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every weekend. And this week is no different with my guest, Sam Staley. He’s the director of an applied public policy research center in the College of Social Sciences and Public Policy at Florida State University and the author of several books. And now, he’s with me here today. Sam, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on what’s your end.

Sam: Oh, thank you for having me on. This is actually gonna be a lot of fun. I’m looking forward to it.

John: This is gonna be so great, but I do have 17 rapid fire questions to get to know Sam out of the gate here, so here we go. I’ll start you out with maybe an easy one. Favorite color?

Sam: Green.

John: Green. Nice. Okay. How about a least favorite color?

Sam: Oh, probably purple.

John: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Sam: Yeah.

John: That’s kind of there. Yeah. Yeah. Ooh, here’s a tricky one. Brownie or ice cream?

Sam: Oh, man. Brownie, but it’s close. It’s close.

John: Okay. All right. All right. That’s why I was like it’s a tough one. It’s a tough one.

Sam: Depends on if it’s good ice cream or not. That’s the answer.

John: Right.

Sam: Good ice cream—

John: Some Graeter’s. I know you’re an Ohio guy. There you go. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Sam: Oh, that’s tough because as you know, I watch a lot of movies and they’re just so many of them.

John: Oh, yeah!

Sam: Right?

John: Right. Or you can have more than one if you want. I’ll give you more than one ’cause you know way too many.

Sam: Yeah. I am continually astounded by Meryl Streep.

John: Oh, yeah.

Sam: No matter what character she’s playing, I can fall into that character and not even know I’m actually watching Meryl Streep. So I’d probably say yeah.

John: Yeah. She’s amazing. Totally amazing. How about more jeans or khakis?

Sam: Oh, jeans.

John: Jeans. There you go. Or shorts I guess in Florida.

Sam: Yeah. Which is tough for a jeans guy ’cause you really need to be in shorts.

John: Right? Right. There you go. How about puzzles? Sudoku, Crossword, or Jigsaw?

Sam: I don’t do them.

John: Oh, okay.

Sam: So yeah. the puzzles are interesting because I’m not sure I have the patience to really do them.

John: Right. There you go. So it’s like why do I this all at all?

Sam: Yeah.

John: Like just forget it. There you go. How about a favorite TV show of all time?

Sam: Oh, you know what? I don’t have one and that’s because I’m a movie guy rather than a TV guy.

John: Oh, okay. Yeah.

Sam: And so, all of my TV watching has really been with other people, so I kinda let other people guide me through that.

John: Okay.

Sam: So there have definitely been some memorable ones, but not a favorite one.

John: Okay. Yeah. That’s interesting. Yeah. ‘Cause, I mean, I know that you were way into movies, but I figured it would— but it doesn’t transfer over. That’s amazing. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. I know these are movies. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Sam: Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. Yeah. Me too.

Sam: Yeah.

John: Same.

Sam: Yeah.

John: There you go. How about your computer? More of a PC or a Mac?

Sam: Oh, PC definitely.

John: Yeah. I’m the same. There you go. This is a kind of a fun question on your mouse. Right click or left click?

Sam: Never thought about it. Must be left click.

John: There you go. Make the decisions. That’s the picking of the stuff. There you go.

Sam: Yeah.

John: All right. How about a favorite season? Summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Sam: Oh, I love them all. That’s what I miss about not living in Ohio, is that we don’t have four seasons. As one of my former students said, she learned when she moved north that Florida just has two seasons, hot and less hot.

John: That’s awesome.

Sam: Yeah. So I love all four seasons, and I really find joy in each one of them.

John: Okay. All right. Fair enough. Yeah, absolutely. Since you’re in Florida, I’ll ask, favorite Disney character?

Sam: Oh, man. You know what? I just like Disney World. I’ve never connected with the characters. I guess that’s it. But the aesthetic and the world building that Disney has done, I’m just in awe of. And when I go into those theme parks— and I used to work at a theme park in high school and a little bit in college. And so, I’m just in awe of the world building that goes along with it. So I’m more of a ride and an attraction person as opposed to a character person.

John: Okay. What amusement park?

Sam: Kings Island, which is just north of Cincinnati.

John: Yeah, totally.

Sam: Yeah.

John: Absolutely. No. I, as a kid, lived in Dayton, outside of Dayton. And so, yeah. So we went to Kings Island all the time.

Sam: Yeah.

John: Oh, here we go. Would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

Sam: Early bird.

John: There you go. Yeah, that figures. Getting it done. Getting the writing out of the way. Yeah. Early and all that. Yeah. Yeah. How about a favorite number?

Sam: Probably 8 and that’s only because it just popped into my head when you asked.

John: Okay.

Sam: I’m a social scientist, so we use numbers all the time. It’s really serves a very utilitarian purpose. So, you know, having a favorite doesn’t really mean much in an aesthetic sense. So it’s probably all that favorite stuff has probably been purged from my brain.

John: Right.

Sam: From all of my graduate work and my academic work.

John: Right. ‘Cause favorite seems awfully extreme.

Sam: Yeah.

John: So like I like all of the positive numbers, whole numbers.

Sam: Question is what does that number do? That’s what I wanna know.

John: Right. Right.

Sam: Right?

John: Right. Exactly. Exactly. We got three more. Oh, here you go. Oceans or mountains?

Sam: Mountains.

John: Mountains. There you go.

Sam: They’re close because—

John: Yeah.

Sam: Yeah. Alpine skiing, but I’m picking up sailing as well, so—

John: Oh, nice.

Sam: …oceans are definitely up there. But at the end of the day, if I had to choose a place, mountains with skiing.

John: There you go. Yeah. Snowy mountains. How about when it comes to books? Do you prefer audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Sam: Oh, hardcopy versions.

John: Yeah. Real book. Yeah.

Sam: I’ve tried digital and I’ve tried audio. I’m not in a car long enough for the audio to work. I mean, to really be effective. And I find that even with my Kindle, I’m going to my print version of the book.

John: No, I totally agree. Yeah. It’s just more familiar. And then the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Sam: I would have to say right now, the favorite thing I own are my skis.

John: Sure. Yeah. Is it a certain brand?

Sam: I mean, the Rossignol skis. Oh, no, I’m sorry. They’re K2s. Previous ones were Rossignol, but I think it’s part of what I hold on to that really connects me to something that I find a tremendous amount of joy in. And I, over the last several years, have been trying to purge my world of physical things, but those are the things that I keep. Then they are a physical connection to something I find joy in, but there’s also just the aesthetic part of just carrying these skis around. And yeah, it’s just all part of the culture.

John: That’s awesome. No, no, which ties right into your end of Alpine skiing. And because you live in Florida now, you have to clarify the Alpine versus whatever other kind of skiing, water skiing, or who knows what else type of thing, but yeah. But is it something that you grew up doing?

Sam: Uh-huh. Yeah. So what’s interesting is that I probably, like most kids, took it for granted because my family is big skiers, but our pedigree in the United States goes back really, really far. I have a picture of my mother in 1948 on skis in New Jersey where she was growing up.

John: Oh, wow.

Sam: And we grew up in Dayton, Ohio as I mentioned earlier. And my father was president of the Dayton Ski Club in the 1950s and was a ski bump at Aspen for a year before he settled down after moving back to Dayton, Ohio. And he owned a ski resort, a small ski resort depending on how far back you go in Dayton, Ohio. Sugarcreek Ski Hills. I still stay in touch with a lot of people that grew up there and skied there. And over the years, it’s become more and more embedded in my culture and in my identity as well. And it is a great escape. So really second generation. My kids are third generation skiers. And my dad’s whole approach why he invested in the ski area was he just thought there was so much in skiing. And he grew up poor in an urban area in Dayton, Ohio, which, by the way, is not where you could find a lot of skiers.

John: No, not at all. Right.

Sam: Yeah. So his purpose for starting the business in part was to introduce people to the sport that he loved. And it was actually the common bond that brought my mother and my father together.

John: That’s awesome.

Sam: They met in the Dayton Ski Club.

John: That’s so cool. I mean, you grew up on skis pretty much and then just stayed with it?

Sam: I probably didn’t really connect to skiing until high school because it was just sort of there, but then I was active in the National Ski Patrol at the ski area. And my sister also ended up going to Killington Mountain School and was a competitive skier for 5 years, freestyle skiing afterwards. It is all from Ohio by the way.

John: Right, right, which is amazing. It’s like a Jamaican bobsled team kind of thing.

Sam: Yeah.

John: I mean, it’s almost to that extreme.

Sam: That’s the way you’d think about it.

John: Right. Right.

Sam: But what we found is that— I think the reason I enjoy it now when I’m much older is that growing up and learning how to ski in the Midwest, as well as in New England, your fundamentals get really strong. And so, you find that you can ski anywhere, and you can find joy in skiing anywhere. And because I grew up on a very small ski area, we used to call it Sugar Feet Ski Hills, but that was a very ambitious name. Most of us finally call it Sugar Bump. That’s how small it is. But I can ski any area no matter how big or small or where it is. And I can find joy in being on the snow on skis and find a way to do it. And so, for me, that’s a great escape. It’s a great way for me to release my brain, sort of think differently about different places and different people, and sort of appreciate the different ways in which we connect with not only each other, but the natural environment, as well as the constructed environment.

John: That’s so interesting how much that plays out into work like you were just saying. I mean, you’re skiing because of the joy of it, but there’s so much of that that spills over. Like you can’t cut it off. You can’t not bring this with you to work or to life sort of thing and how many connections you’re able to make with that.

Sam: Yeah. And as I was thinking about this interview, it’s really got me to think more deeply about this, which is it’s like a hobby. So how many people think deeply about a hobby unless you can be on What’s My “And”? podcast? And then you say “Oh, I gotta take this seriously, you know, at this point.” Right? But one of the things I do at Florida State is I teach and my pedagogy—In other words, the way I teach and the kind of skills and the kinds of courses I teach require a lot of vulnerability on my students ’cause I’m really trying to take them outside their comfort zone, prepare them for the professional world, and really get them to recognize that there’s a lot of uncertainty in the world.

But if they have the right tools and the right attitude, they can begin to manage that uncertainty and really begin to be effective no matter what they’re tasked with. And skiing actually has turned out to be a really good analogy in part because I’m an expert recreational skier. I’m not going to be at the same level as my sister who is competitive on the freestyle circuit, but there’s very little that I can’t handle no matter if I’m in the Rockies or in the Alps or wherever I might be. And what that has done is that allowed me to understand how confidence interacts with skill and then understand where full heartiness is and where that line is between courage.

Those are things I bring into the classroom and I also bring into managing my center because we’re kind of on a creative edge. And in order to be creative, you have to be able to step into uncertain spaces where you think you might have an idea, but you’re not sure. And I try to create these spaces where you can fail without getting hurt. Now, if I’m jumping into a shoot in the Rocky Mountains, very small margin for error. And actually, that’s one of my areas I’m very reluctant to do that. I tell people I have things I will do on the first day of skiing and things I will do on the fifth day of skiing. Most of that fifth day of skiing stuff I’m not doing on the first day because I know I’m not ready.

John: That’s such a great parallel and, like you said, analogy of when you’re on the edge of a double black diamond or you’re free skiing or who knows what, you know, that backwards skiing type stuff. And it’s just like “Well, I don’t know where this goes. And we’re going really fast and zero margin for error. Like this is it.” But there’s that uncertainty in a lot of things in life really that we don’t really think about anymore, but that’s, yeah, one step at a time. Just you don’t have to take 20 steps. You don’t have to be the fifth day skier when you’re on your first day.

Sam: Yeah. I use this analogy. I actually have a picture. There’s a really steep— probably steepest terrain in Vail that’s off of a place called Lover’s Leap. There’s a lip on it, so you can’t really see what’s on the other end. And I have some pictures of that. And I actually used it in class as an example of where you could go and understanding what your tolerance is and your skill level is at different times because now, remember, I’m teaching kids in Florida.

John: Right.

Sam: I mean, it’s about as flat. I live at 180 feet above sea level and it’s the second highest place in Florida. Part of using these images and sort of these experiences is to, one, I’m old. You know, I’m 61 years old. And to show them that even at 61, I can still do things that they can’t even imagine. And part of it is preparation. Part of it is being understanding where I am at a particular time and recognizing what skills I have and I don’t have.

And then if I don’t have the skills and I actually talk about this ’cause sometimes my friends will say “Yeah, let’s do this”, I’m like “No, this is Day 1. I’m not ready.” I mean, to both a mental and a skill level, I just don’t have the leg strength to be able to do really, really steep stuff in a way. And I like to be able to ski well. Just getting down is not good enough. I wanna be able to link my turns and like I really am in control. So it’s actually served as a very useful analogy that helps take the whole conversation outside of a space where they are familiar with, which allows them to think more broadly.

And so, yeah, it served as a really powerful way to sort of talk about important questions about what we’re doing professionally and where we’re trying to go even though you might not think that thinking about going off a lip under this really steep terrain has anything to do with whether or not property development in College Town Tallahassee is significant. I say, “Well, no, let’s think about the perspective here. Let’s think about where we are ’cause not everybody steps into this space. Only some people do.” So the question of what’s going on I found is really helpful.

John: And the feelings that they’re having as they’re getting ready to go over the lip, if you will, of this project, or of this course, or whatever is exactly the same feelings that you would have if you were on these skis in this picture, you know, type of thing. And I’m here to tell you you can do it. I made it. And if you get a little over the tips or if you’re, you know, whatever, then you can ask for help. You’re in a safe space to be able to do that, and that’s awesome. And so, like have you always talked about the skiing or even the writing fiction as well that you do? Is that something that has always come up or— ’cause sometimes people think “Well, it’s a hobby, I’ll just keep it outside of work, no one cares” sort of thing.

Sam: I would say when I started teaching. So part of my background is that I came to Florida State in 2011, but I came from the professional world. I didn’t come from the academic world. And what I found is when I came into the academic world and I was teaching, I found these much more relevant, these sort of experiences much more relevant. And also, I began to realize that a lot of what I was doing in my hobbies was actually helping me in my management even in the professional world. But I found it became far more tangible and relevant when I was in the classroom, when I was working with young adults. So I really started bringing this in explicitly when I started back at Florida State. And I found it was also a very useful way to start conversations. So that helps me get to know the people I’m working with. That helps me to understand where they’re coming from so I can think about if it’s classroom creating a transformative experience for them because all my students are also upper division undergraduates. So they’re going to leave what I call the bubble. And so, I want them to be prepared for that. And it’s not what they’ve been trained to do for the previous 2 years or 3 years.

John: Yeah. Because college life is optional. Like you know what? I’m not going to class today. I’m just gonna stay home and play video games or whatever, sleep. Like you can’t do that once you’re working. Like it’s not optional anymore.

Sam: Nope. And my classes are setup in a professional environment. So I wish I’d brought more of this into my professional life than I did before, but I really just didn’t and for a variety of reasons. One is, to some extent, the hobby is my escape from work. So the idea of mixing them is just like, okay, I just wanna go put my skis on or I just wanna go right. But I found over the years, I began to appreciate more and more of that. I mean, the fiction writing has been helpful because that’s really helped me understand what story means, how to create a story, and how do I communicate to my staff important issues that we’re grappling with. You know, what’s the story behind it?

And if we understand the story, we understand the human connection, and understanding the human connection is the key to unlocking a lot of problems organizationally and in management. And I think we underestimate that. So both of those have become more and more important as I’ve gotten older. I’ve also found that just having the confidence to bring that into the professional space has been crucial too. And part of what I do is, you know, you have this great thing about What’s your “And”?, and I am really trying to bring that into the culture of the DeVoe Moore Center, which is the center that I operate. So I just found out one of my students who, again, she’s involved in politics and policy, she sings opera.

John: Nice!

Sam: Yeah.

John: Yeah!

Sam: And so, I’m like that is awesome.

John: Right?

Sam: And not only that, she’s self-taught in opera.

John: Whoa!

Sam: Now, that is non-trivial for a number of reasons. But including the fact, Florida State has one of the best fine arts programs in the country in part because of its legacy as a woman’s college. But our fine arts and music programs are among the top 10 typically ranked, if not higher. So here we have a political science major who sings opera and then you’re listening to her and you’re like it adds a whole new dimension to life. And I’m not a fan of opera, but I appreciate opera as an art form.

John: Totally.

Sam: And to completely recognize the passion that comes through with trying to sing well, and she’s got a decent voice, I can’t say what great it is that I’m not a singer.

John: It sounds good to you and me, you know. It’s like “Wow. I could do that.”

Sam: Can you feel it coming through in the tape? Yeah. So we try to do that. And I think our students like it when we sort of highlight. Another one of our research assistants plays the flute in the marching band. And they all have something they can bring in and that helps build the culture of the organization, and it makes it easier for everyone to relate and yeah. So I am completely bought in or completely sold. I’m completely all in on this idea of What’s Your “And”?

John: Oh, thank you, man. That means so much. Yeah. And it’s cool too because I’m learning from clients. And what I’m hearing you say even is it crosses generational differences. It crosses DEIA differences. It crosses like all kinds of differences that most people would look at on the surface as well. I have nothing in common with this person, and it’s like “Actually, maybe you do.” And if it’s not the same, it’s still awesome. You know, like it’s a cool other dimension to them that they’re able to bring to the program, and it’s cool.

Sam: Yeah. One of the things I started doing in my classes, I break my classes down into small group discussions. And I do more and more of that all the time. And what I found happening, as I was observing these small groups, is that the conversations— there’s a bonding that happened. So it’s not just the academic component. It’s the way they interact. And they begin sharing stories. “Oh, well I was doing this.” “Oh, why were you doing that?” That ended up creating this team environment that relaxed the entire exercise that then allowed them to explore more deeply and more substantively the questions that I really wanted them to as an instructor. At the end of the day, we’re human and we’re social animals. So the and is really important because that’s what gives us that human dimension that allows us to say “You are not a robot. You are not just an economist. You are not just a statistician, or whatever, or a CFO. And what else are you doing? Let’s find out about that. Let’s talk about it.”

John: I love that so much, man. That’s so awesome to hear that it’s even in the classroom and just it organically happens, you know. If you told them you can only talk about like the academic thing that I handed you and you have to talk about that, then they wouldn’t go as deep. They wouldn’t get a better solution. They wouldn’t create those connections. But by letting the human happen, you’re able to get a little bit deeper, and it just happens organically, and just let it go. And I love that. Build the sandbox and let ’em play, you know, sort of thing.

Sam: And I have to have the discipline to stay back, which, by the way, that is work because they’re— I don’t know. This is the way it should be or this is what you need to be talking about. Right?

John: Right.

Sam: I’ve been doing this for 40 years. Right?

John: Exactly.

Sam: But I’ve really had to work on the discipline of standing back, and sitting back, and observing because what I’ve found— I try to coach my new faculty on this as well. If you let them work through it themselves in an organic way, they will get to the same place. If we structure the exercise the right way, if we have— And I haven’t lectured in 6 years and I’m a full-time faculty member. But if we structure the exercise in the right way, they will get to where we want them to go. But the more organic it can be and the more that it’s grounded in the relations that they develop with their peers, the deeper that learning will be and it may take longer. It definitely will take longer, but they’ll get there, and they’ll learn the lessons more fully and completely, and in a way that they can apply. So it’s really fun to watch.

John: That’s so awesome to hear. Yeah. ‘Cause I mean, you know, when I wrote the book, the message, it was never in a classroom or in academia. It wasn’t that. So it’s just so cool to hear and thank you so much, man. That means so much. Absolutely. And yeah. So I feel like before we wrap this up, do you have any words of encouragement for anyone listening that maybe has an and that they feel like no one’s gonna care about ’cause it has nothing to do with my job?

Sam: Oh, yeah. I think when you embrace your and, you’re embracing the full you. And it will be scary at first. But the more you do it, as long as you’re not like hitting someone with a sledge hammer over it, you’ll find with practice and as you talk a little bit more about it, that people will connect with it.

So there aren’t very many students in Florida that Alpine ski, but they all are very intrigued by it. We certainly don’t have a lot of students that sing opera that are outside the major, but they really think it’s cool. And so, I think it’s worth the leap. And I think you become more fully multidimensional and people appreciate that. And I think it’s particularly valuable these days. I think it’s so easy with social media to become one dimensional and project yourself in a certain way. But in the real world, we need to be authentic, and we need to be complex, and humans are inherently complex. And your probably is a demonstration of that complexity, which creates long-term bonds.

John: Yeah. Totally. Yeah. ‘Cause, I mean, there’s certainly other complex things about you, but the and is like the first step. It’s a simple thing. It’s an easy thing. It’s something that you can start to create those connections. You can get to more complexities later if you want, but that’s just a little bit below surface level that’s just like “oh, okay” type of thing. And I love that so much, man. That’s awesome.

Sam: Yeah. It’s also a great conversation starter at a party if you’re shy.

John: Right.

Sam: Right?

John: Exactly.

Sam: So yeah. And then you’d say “Oh, well, what’s your and?” And then you’re “What do you mean what’s my and?” “Yeah. What hobby are you interested in? Why are you here?”

John: One day, it will just be “What’s your and?” And then everyone will know what that means.

Sam: That’s right.

John: And then they’ll be like “Oh, it’s this.” And then it’s just like part of the vernacular. But I feel like it’s only fair that I turned the table since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning that we make this The Sam Staley Podcast and I’m your guest. So whatever questions you got, I’m all yours.

Sam: Yeah. Well, I’m actually intrigued by your standup comedy. And what I find interesting— ’cause I think it takes a tremendous amount of courage to get up and do standup comedy. And I’m curious as to when do you know your comedy is working? And then a second part to that is when it’s not working, how do you respond?

John: Oh, wow, those are good questions. Well, I guess you know it’s working when people are laughing and that’s within a 10th of a second. You can tell. And also, the more you do it, the more your antenna, I guess, are— Like when I’m on stage, even now keynote speaking at conferences, I have antenna in all parts of the room. So I can sense within milliseconds if something’s off. This side of the room is not quite getting it or I said something that applies to this particular table or whatever. So like it’s exhausting really to do, but you can just get a sense for it.

And yeah, I mean, I guess you know it’s working when people are laughing ’cause that’s really at the end of the day what comedy’s for, is making people laugh. That’s how I looked at it. I looked at it always as people’s lives are maybe not totally awesome, so they’re coming to the comedy club or the show as an escape. And so, if I can be a part of a show that makes you forget about time, forget about everything else and just laugh— And you know, most of the jokes are about me anyway. So, you know, like it’s self-deprecating, but then slowly over time, it did become just observational stuff about the world, about the McRib or crockpots, or all kinds of silly things that are just in our world.

And then I guess when it’s not working, yeah, you’re just sort of like “Well, I guess I’m the only one that thinks that’s funny. That’s cool.” But eventually, you tell the joke and you polish it, you tweak it, you know, and you record, and you listen, and then certain words are funnier than others or the cadence of how you deliver it, and then you just start to dial it in. And then if it doesn’t work 1 out of a 100 times, well, you know what, that’s on the audience. That’s not on me. That’s on you. And also too, this is also something that I was talking to somebody about recently is audiences don’t always know that they’re not good. Some audiences are just quiet. They think they’re killing it. They think they’re laughing as hard as can be.

And I’m like “Oh, you guys are about a 5 out of 10 maybe tops.” But they don’t know when they come out after and this was the most amazing thing ever. And I’m like “Well, I don’t know. I’m glad you think so.” And so, that’s the other thing, is audiences don’t always know ’cause there isn’t a comparative audience on the other side laughing harder for them to then “Oh, okay. We gotta step it up here.” So, you know, you just learn to dial it to them and then meet them where they’re at and be like “Okay. Well, that’s what we’re gonna get. You know, the 5 is gonna be the max and that’s cool.”

Sam: It’s interesting because what you’re saying about and sort of the pivoting that happens, I mean, we forget how much we have to pivot all the time.

John: Oh, my gosh.

Sam: The importance of being able to let it go. In other words, if it’s not working, let it go. Don’t get tied into that, but then begin to think more forward thinking, all right, how do I, one, not get pulled down by either the energy of the audience or a joke that just went flat or maybe three jokes that went flat? And it always struck me that live entertainment has to do that. And that’s a really good skill to develop. And that’s something that we work with a lot. So this idea of trying to always not get too mired up in the past and stay in the present. Right?

John: Yeah. And I mean, it’s pivoting every second, I mean, when you’re doing comedy. I mean, there’s almost a fork that happens on some of the jokes where you’re like “Oh, you really got that joke. Cool. You just unlock the magic new level that I only bring out for audiences that deserve it.” Or if you didn’t like that one or you didn’t respond as well to that one, then there’s one coming up that I’m just gonna skip because it’s just not gonna work, you know, type of thing. But it’s a lot of trial and error, and error, and more error. You learn the hard way. If you’re singing, or if you’re in a band, or if you are skiing or running, you have to do it, but you can do it kind of not in the public eye.

Sam: Right, right.

John: But in comedy, like I can practice all I want in my garage, but you don’t know if it’s good or not until you get in front of strangers. And that’s the hard part about it.

Sam: Is there a difference between comedians that do the one liners versus the ones that try to work on a theme?

John: Sure. I mean, not really a difference. I mean, I do find that jokes that are shorter don’t necessarily have to be as funny or pack as much of a punch because you didn’t make the audience wait as long. So a one liner, you know, from like Steven Wright, or Mitch Hedberg, or Demetri Martin, or comedians like that, they’re all very, very, very funny. But the amount of shock, or turn, or twist to that joke that’s necessary is less than a joke that’s longer because you’re making them wait. And now, they’re like “Well, this better be really freaking good because you’re making me wait.” But even then, that longer joke is still dissected into a bunch of jokes that in a minute, you know, there could be 10 punchlines in that 62nd joke. You just don’t know it because of the rhythm of it or the way it’s more of a story or something.

Sam: But the comedian would be aware of what that trajectory of those— that layering of the jokes or—

John: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. The common thing would be there’s the buildup and then there’s that first punchline. And then right after that, another one or another one. So then, it’s like bam, bam, bam. It’s kind of like a boxing sort of a thing. Like you just can’t come out swinging like haymakers every time I would imagine. I don’t know, I’m not a boxer clearly, but there’s a little bit of a dance to it. But then once one lands, then bam, bam, bam, bam. Then it’s I’m coming in for some more and then you back off a little bit and then it’s “All right, we’ll get back into the new one” type of thing. But it’s so great. The fact that like you can say words and then the immediate reaction of a group of strangers, it’s an emotional reaction. They’re not thinking. Like I was listening to an Alan Watts thing recently. And he was talking about like if you have to explain the joke to somebody, they laugh out of courtesy.

Sam: Yeah.

John: But it’s because like the magic is lost now, you know. But the fact that you can say words and then people laugh and like a group of strangers that don’t know each other, you don’t know them, and their immediate response is laughter, it’s awesome and mind blowing. There’s been so many times I’m on stage where I’m literally like I don’t even know how this happens. Like I don’t even know what the magic is behind this. And it’s awesome to me. It’s really interesting.

Sam: Strikes me how comedy is so culturally contextual. I mean, it’s like in Ireland, your comedy is gonna be very different—

John: Oh, yeah.

Sam: …than it is here.

John: Oh, yeah. Very.

Sam: Actually, I’ve spent a fair amount of time traveling back and forth from China. It’s like our humor does not translate well into Chinese humor or Japanese humor and just so different.

John: So different. Even within, I mean, when I moved to New York City from the Midwest. You know, in New York City, they don’t cook. They don’t have crockpots. They don’t have college marching bands ’cause they’re all about the pros. Or you get a group from Norway that happens to be in the— And you’re like “Well, I don’t have a lot of Thor jokes. Like I don’t really know.” You know? So it just makes you write more and to be more accessible to more people and just try and find those common bonds and the common denominator between us or you’d go the other extreme where I’m the animal in the zoo that’s freaky and you don’t know anything about me.

So I’m just gonna make you laugh about how crazy I am and my world is. It’s one or the other type of thing. And that’s why like a lot of people that wanna do that do comedy or whatever that ask me, I’m like “Well, get a job because everyone in the audience has a job.” If you’re working at fast food or delivering pizzas, yeah, sure, but I don’t know what that’s like. So for you to tell jokes about delivering pizzas, I’m not gonna get it and neither is the audience. But if you have a job and you can make fun of the world that they’re in also, then you’re more relatable. It’s just finding that connection and then taking ’em on a ride.

Sam: Very cool.

John: Awesome, Sam. Well, thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? and introducing it to so many students at Florida State and for being a part of this. Thank you so, so much.

Sam: Oh, thank you, John. This has been so much fun.

John: And everybody, if you wanna see some pictures of Sam on the slopes or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there, as well as links to his books. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.