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Welcome to Episode 387 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To it put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. It’s coming out on June 4th or maybe a couple of days sooner.

The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture, and I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and then writing such great reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Will Baker. He’s the Marketing and CPA Experience Director at BaCo Tech in the Dallas, Texas area. Now he’s with me here today. Will, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Will: Yeah, man. I’m excited.

John: This is going to be so much fun. I’ve got 17 rapid-fire questions to get to know Will on a new level here, so here we go. I’ll start you out with a pretty easy one. How about a favorite color?

Will: I’ll go with blue. Oh, gray, gray is probably my favorite color.

John: Gray. Okay.

Will: If my sister is listening, she would say that that’s not a color. It’s a shade.

John: No, that’s a color. That’s a color. We will fight her on this.

Will: That’s what I default to. If I’m picking out bed sheets or anything like that, I’d jump at gray.

John: There you go. Awesome. How about a least favorite color?

Will: Oh, yellow. I don’t like yellow.

John: Yeah, that’s like the opposite of gray. That’s very bright and vibrant. Yeah, yeah.

Will: I am thoroughly against yellow.

John: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yellow is more of a shade. No, I’m kidding.

Will: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It’s a shade.

John: Here’s a tricky one, pizza or hamburger.

Will: Pizza. It’s not even tricky. It’s easy. Pizza is the perfect food.

John: Pizza. Yeah, right? Your hands are clean. You eat it. It’s all right there. I like it. How about a favorite Disney character?

Will: Oh, that’s hard.

John: There’s a lot to choose from.

Will: Well, I immediately go into subcategories. When you’re asking me about Disney, I go, are you saying Disney Princess? Now we have the Marvel Universe and Star Wars in there as well. I would say I’ll just go with childhood, Buzz Lightyear.

John: Oh, yeah. There you go.

Will: Toy Story was coming out when I was the age of Andy, the protagonist and everything. Then Toy Story 3 came out when he was going to college, and it was the summer that I was going to college and so…

John: Nice.

Will: All of that. I’ll go Buzz.

John: Buzz Lightyear, that’s an excellent answer. Excellent answer. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Will: I don’t have one?

John: No, that’s fair enough. Fair enough. That totally works. How about puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

Will: Sudoku.

John: Sudoku, yeah, there you go. That’s how I do my tax returns actually.

Will: We can help with that.

John: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

Will: Night owl.

John: Night owl, okay. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Will: Real book.

John: Real book. Nice. How about a favorite number?

Will: 24.

John: Is there a reason?

Will: It’s my birthday, one. Then growing up, it was three, but I like 24 because it contains three in a lot of different ways.

John: Okay. All right. I like it. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Will: Ooh, depends on the time of year. With us currently entering into summer and I’m cycling a lot more, I would say a nice IPA.

John: Okay.

Will: Because I’ll ride 30, 40 miles every time I ride, and that’s just a quick way to get calories back. It kind of rests out the body. Or whiskey. It’s all good. I just don’t like vodka. Vodka is nasty.

John: Right. Okay, all right. Fair enough. Fair enough. Since you’re a marketing guy, I have to ask, digital or print marketing.

Will: I don’t know. I guess digital because it’s all that matters now, but I would never describe myself as the marketing guy. I’m not the person that is posting on LinkedIn that was like, I was at Chick-fil-A the other day and I realized the power of positive impact marketing.

John: You either know it works or it doesn’t.

Will: Well, yeah. It’s just marketing is, it’s silly. It’s a job we made up for jobs.

John: Right? Amen, man. Amen. Well, at least you know, so that’s even better. How about, oh, here’s a good one, how about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Will: I, forever, would have said Star Wars, but the latest batches of movie — I’m still going to say Star Wars, though I do have an opinion that Star Wars is maybe not as good as we say it is because if you look at the lion’s share of all the movies they’ve made now, more of them are bad than good.

John: I agree with you totally on that. Yeah, it’s unfortunate.

Will: I like the Ark and the environment better than Star Trek.

John: Yeah. Right. Agreed. How about your computer, more PC or Mac?

Will: I’m a Mac guy. I am typical marketing, visual arts, young millennial, post-hipster Mac guy.

John: There you go. All right, how about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Will: Vanilla.

John: Oh, okay. If gray was a flavor, you would pick gray, but vanilla was there.

Will: Vanilla is scientifically one of the most complicated flavors and so I am very proud of it. Blue Bell Homemade Vanilla is like… Vanilla is my favorite, man. It’s like the same argument that I had about pizza. When people are like, what’s your favorite pizza? I’m like, pepperoni pizza. If I’m going to go to a place and they’re like, I make great ice cream, or I make great pepperoni pizza; and you make crappy pepperoni or vanilla. If you can’t get the standards right, then I’m not going to trust you to do the tricked up stuff.

John: Right. Right. I love it. I love that logic, man. I like that. How about rain or snow?

Will: Ooh, forever, I would have said snow, but being in Dallas over this last February, I have a bad taste of snow in my mouth right now, so I’m going to say rain.

John: Right. Okay. I’ve got two more. Two more. How about a favorite animal, any animal at all?

Will: Dogs.

John: Dogs. Okay.

Will: Yet again, kind of the vanilla ice cream of animals but…

John: I’m catching onto you, man. I’m catching on.

Will: I’m pretty low-key, dude. I met my wife at the dog park, and we have a big black Lab-Great Pyrenees mix.

John: Nice.

Will: Yeah, I’m into dogs. Dogs rock.

John: That works. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Will: That’s a really good question. I love things so much. I would say probably my guitar. It’s the first — what do you grab, if your house is on fire, what do you grab? My guitar. It’s like a Christian church guy. Everyone’s like, you wouldn’t say Bible? It’s like, I can buy another Bible.

John: Right. Right.

Will: Those are less expensive than my guitar.

John: Exactly. That’s awesome, man. I love it. What kind of guitar is it?

Will: It’s a Guild. I don’t know the exact type. I like the story of how I found it. Guitarists are very, especially when you have your favorite, they all have fun — if they have their favorite guitar, they have fun stories about how they found it. So, found it in this old shop in East Dallas and it was under a pile of other guitars. I had kind of idolized this type of guitar for a while, and they were just hard to find. Guild’s a very unique brand and its story and what’s happened with it. So, when I saw they had it, I was like, I want that. That’s what I want right there.

John: Very cool, which leads perfectly into your “and” of music. So, did you get started when you were younger, playing instruments? Or how did the music bug get you?

Will: I had two cousins that I thought were the coolest people in the world. My favorite cousin was a drummer. I went up to my parents one year, and I was like, I want a drum kit for Christmas. My parents were like, pick something quieter. My second favorite cousin played guitar, so I was like, then I’ll take a guitar. I was like 11? I got a guitar for Christmas and have been playing ever since.

John: That’s awesome. Do they know that they’re your first and second favorite cousins?

Will: No, probably not.

John: Okay.

Will: I’m the youngest. They’re on my mom’s side, and I’m the youngest on my mom’s side by –the next closest to me is my sister who’s four years older.

John: Oh, okay, so they’re a lot older.

Will: Yeah. My mom is the youngest of four, and I’m the youngest of her kids. They were like, 16, 17 years old, 20 when I was 10. I was like, these guys are… Well, now as an adult and they’re adults, I’m like, these are just regular dudes like me, but then they were like gods among men. I was like, oh, my gosh.

John: That’s fantastic. So, you literally started with guitar.

Will: Yeah, I started with guitar. You can see a little — I have a piano behind me.

John: Right.

Will: I do not know how to play piano. I try and learn and all of that. I took a piano class in college. This is an old upright from the ‘30s or something that my wife got for me for Christmas one year. I can fiddle around on it now, but basically everything I learned on piano is for guitar. Being a pianist makes you a better guitarist.

John: Interesting.

Will: It’s all guitar. One of my favorite things about working from home is, many things, but the ability to have one guitar next to me.

John: Yeah, it’s just right there.

Will: If I’m writing something, I very much process by playing. Can drive a lot of people crazy because I can carry on a conversation and fiddle and play and think, and it’s very distracting to other people.

John: Right, but that’s for them to get over. Right?

Will: Yeah. I wouldn’t say I’m obsessive about it, and there are millions of better players than me, but it’s probably one of my favorite things. If I could set aside everything that money wasn’t an object, I would open a guitar shop in Dallas and just sell vintage and guitars and that kind of stuff.

John: Yeah.

Will: Then die one day. That will be life.

John: Right? Yeah, that’s exactly it because that’s what lights you up, and it sounds like it’s a good release, as well, for, one, when you’re working. You’re able to come back with a clearer mind or some good ideas because you don’t just sit there and stare at the computer screen the whole time. Actually take a step back and noodle around on the guitar a little bit.

Will: Mm-hmm.

John: Because so many people, they think, well, if I put in more time and if I just only work, then it will make me better at my job. I feel like that’s not necessarily the case.

Will: Yeah, I care about my job. I want to do a good job at my job. As we’re in a tech startup, and so there’s a lot of care that goes into that. There’s a lot of care that I have for that job, but I don’t aspire to be — I don’t want to write the marketing books or anything like that. I don’t aspire to be a cut above, as bad as that may sound. My profession is, far and away, not my priority at all.

John: Well, it’s a part of who you are, and the other parts come along with it.

Will: Yeah.

John: It’s not just one thing. They’re all right there along with it, which is great because it’s easy to slip into that working mode. That’s your identity. That’s who you are. That’s your priority. That’s — because that’s what pays the bills at the end of the day.

Will: Yeah, and for myself, it facilitates the things that I am passionate about. I would not be able to do the things that I’m passionate about, if not for the job that I have, so there is an understanding that I have to do that very well. I have to strive to get better and improve and learn more and all of that, but it is not — we were talking about it at my church the other week, the notion of work-life balance in and of itself is twisted in that it’s prioritizing work still. It’s still putting work first to life.

I very much try to keep things at, I don’t know, appropriate boundaries and that kind of stuff, I guess. That doesn’t just go to, when I’m not at work, I’m not at work. That, to me, goes into mental priority too. This is not going to be the thing that defines me at the end of the day.

John: Yeah, and I love that, how even in work-life balance — I mean, alphabetically, it doesn’t even make sense. The W is clearly last, but it comes first. It’s so annoying.

Will: Yeah.

John: For sure. Back to the guitar, do you have a type of music that you like to play more than others? Or is there something that’s your go-to?

Will: I would say, so, I sing and I write too, and so things in the singer-songwriter genre and your indie, whatever that means now. As I’ve gotten older, the taste has expanded and favorite artists have changed. Really, for myself, what I love is — a lot of the music that I like in formative years of high school, college that was really popular in my friend group was the folksy, stomp and holler, Lumineers that kind of stuff.

John: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.

Will: All of that is not very challenging, musically speaking. It’s very straightforward, and now pop music is kind of like that. I am drawn to singer-songwriters that are really proficient at guitar that are doing things that I like, and that is both a really cool song, as a whole, but what you’re doing on the guitar is something that I can’t do. I would like to try and figure out how you’re doing that and singing, how you’re writing like that.

John: Nice. Yeah, like a John Mayer, sort of, or…

Will: Sure. Yeah. I love John Mayer. My wife describes it as pretentious sometimes and so I listen to deeper music.

John: Oh, sure. People that people haven’t heard of.

Will: Exactly. Dos is probably my favorite band right now. By probably I mean is.

John: Right.

Will: It could be my third “and”. What’s your “and”?

John: Okay, is listening to Dos. There you go. That’s awesome.

Will: Yeah, I’ve got a freaking tattoo of the Dos album. They’re my favorite. There’s another band called Bahamas. Both of them are really what I’m into right now, and then a guy named Christian Lee Hutson. All of them are different, stylistically. Dos is more like folk, but now it’s more so just rock. Bahamas is more — Bahamas is weird. They do a bunch of different stuff. It’s not experimental weird. It’s just like, this album is really folksy, and this one is kind of rock, and this one is R&B, kind of. They mix it up. Christian Lee Hutson is just an acoustic guitar and a dude. They all do stuff really cool, stylistically, with the guitar that when I am listening to it, I not only want to learn how to play it, but I want to learn how to write it. Okay, why is it that you’re crafting the song this way? How are the mental synapses scaling that…

John: Yeah, yeah. What’s the structure to it?

Will: Yeah.

John: Yeah, exactly. I would do the same thing in comedy. You can break down a joke. You can break down a movie. You can break down a sitcom script. It’s like, okay, there’s going to be a cliffhanger in two minutes. Boom, there it is. Okay, commercial break, and we’re back. That’s cool because it’s challenging you. I like that. That’s awesome.

Will: You know who Mike Birbiglia is?

John: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Will: He has one called Working It Out. It’s him and other comedians. It’s fascinating hearing how they break down the structure of a joke.

John: There’s a lot of work to it, and the music as well. We don’t always appreciate the finished product as much as how much work it took to get there with that, which is cool and which is another one of your “ands” of church planting. That’s also something that’s not an easy, overnight, just open the doors and then here we are, type of thing. How did you get started with that?

Will: Music and church were always very closely intertwined. I mentioned the cousins.

John: Oh, yeah.

Will: One of my cousins who was one of the musicians was in a band. When I started playing music, I was super, oh, my gosh, he’s in a band. One day, his life just went off the rails for a little bit, and my parents were both like, okay, if you’re going to play music, you’re going to play with some structure. So, I started playing in church bands when I was probably 13. Pretty quickly after that, I started actually leading and singing, and ended up leading all the way through college, and was more so just because I’m a musician, and I’m good at this, and it’s fun because it kind of is a performative outlet, in a way.

John: Oh, yeah.

Will: Pretty soon after, as I was getting ready to graduate and looking at jobs, a couple of opportunities came for me to work at some churches as an intern or part-time, so I started doing that.

John: I love it because it kind of combines three or four aspects of who you are. There’s the guitar, clearly. There’s the Christianity. There’s the marketing aspect of things. There’s the startup mentality that you have. You’re not walking into an established church and just like, here are the keys, don’t wreck it. It’s, no, no, we’ve got to start from the scratch, from the beginning and build our way up. The same as what you guys have done with BaCo Tech, which is cool. It’s just interesting to see — do you feel like those skills from outside of work apply at BaCo Tech?

Will: Absolutely. It’s funny that you talk about that because, so, for the listeners of this, my job, my dad is my boss. He’s always been a small business owner. When I talked to him, like, I want to plant a church, he was like, that totally makes sense. He’s like, that’s just the small business of church. That makes sense. You want to start your own thing.

John: It’s really uncanny how much your at-work Will mirrors the outside-of-work Will, and how those skills are so interchangeable, and that mindset is so in line in both parts, which is awesome because that’s the ultimate.

Will: Yeah, it’s definitely been — I made the comment to somebody the other day where I was like, I think that once BaCo Tech is established, I’m done with startup.

John: Right. Right.

Will: I am currently working for two startups.

John: That’s a lot.

Will: Yeah, it’s startup life, and I work with my dad.

John: Right. What’s the hardest way to do this? I’ll do that.

Will: Let’s take a stressful environment and add gas.

John: Right. Right. Pretty much. Is music or even the church startup something that you talk about at work, or you talked about even at your last job as well?

Will: Yeah, for sure. Obviously, the old place I worked, it being in ministry and working with churches so much —

John: Oh, yeah, of course.

Will: There was a lot of conversation there. People were very curious about that. Also, everything that I, not everything, but a lot of what I believe about church is because of the environment that I worked in, at that company, and me realizing, I don’t want to be a part of these things that are going on in the church world. I want to go more simple.

When it came to this new job with BaCo, I was — as I was looking for a job, one of the things that I would tell people that I was talking to was, this church is not my breadwinner. It’s not what’s supporting, but it is my priority. This is where I feel like my life has been led. The responsibilities that I have, I won’t take this job if I have to give up the other things because it is what, to me, is the most important thing. I don’t think that’s just a “righteous or holy call.” I think that’s a thing in life. Everyone has things in their life that should be more important than work. If work is going to start infringing on those, then lines need to be drawn because work is not the most important thing, period.

John: No, you’re exactly right. It’s just we make it that because it pays the bills.

Will: Yeah. Therefore, there has to be gravity given to it. There has to be legitimacy. Now I’m married. My relationship with my wife is far more important than my relationship with work, and it’s more important than my church. One day we’re going to have a family, and that will be something else. There are always things in your life that should be more important than work

John: Maybe there are some times where work is a priority for a short period because we have a big project, we’ve got to hammer this out, whatever, but not at the expense of, look, if I do this, my wife’s going to leave me. I’m going to lose everything.

Will: My health.

John: No, no, that’s where lines are drawn, absolutely, and health and mental health and all those things. I agree with you totally. Do you have any words of encouragement to people listening that maybe have a hobby outside of work, but they feel like no one’s going to care, or it has nothing to do with my job?

Will: Encouragement is hard. I would say life is so much more than a job. We have, as a society, have conflated busyness to be a badge of honor.

John: Oh, totally. Totally. I love saying, why? Why?

Will: Yeah. I trapped myself in that, even with the church, because there’s part of this church that is like other job, so there’s a very real reality where I work six days a week, and I’m busy. Not conflating busyness to success, and who gives a rip if somebody thinks — if you’re “and” is pottery and nobody is interested in pottery, who cares? Go find people that like pottery. There are people out there. Because that’s the other thing is that work doesn’t have to be your life. Also, your friends don’t have to be your co-workers.

Maybe this will be my encouragement. If you’re having trouble separating work and life, and you don’t have community outside work, that’s a good place to start. Get involved with other people. If your “and” is music, go find some people to play music with. If you’re “and” is church and you’re in the East Dallas area, come to Lakewood Fellowship.

John: There you go. That’s the marketing guy right there. Yeah, you try to say you’re not, but I see.

Will: There it is, the salesman.

John: There’s no yellow anywhere inside the sanctuary. We’re perfect.

Will: There’s no yellow. It’s all vanilla ice cream.

John: Even on Easter, it’s orange sun.

Will: Yes, that’s exactly right, muted colors even on Easter.

John: Right. That’s awesome.

Will: I think surrounding yourself with people that care about your “and”. If your coworkers don’t care about it, okay, your coworkers don’t have to be your friends. There’s a funny Onion article that the headline was coworker accidentally becomes real life friend.

John: Right.

Will: There are times that that happens, but you need to surround yourself with people that care about things that you care about.

John: Right, and more times than not, the people you work with probably do. It’s just you’re not sharing it, so they never get the opportunity to show that they care.

Will: Yeah, and sometimes that’s hard. We’re a small company. Everyone knows everybody. One of the people I work with is my dad. It’s not like he doesn’t know what’s going on.

John: Right. Yeah.

Will: There are varying degrees. In this age of increasingly remote work, that’s going to become even more important because there are so many people that, outlets of community where, I go to the office, and this is where I get my personal connection. Now you’re working from home. The only time you’re connecting with is — no offense, I’m having a warm time with you over this Zoomish call, but it’s not the same. You need to go, and you need to connect with people. No one, at least people my age, no one prepared us for how much harder it is to make friends as an adult.

John: Right? No, it totally is.

Will: I’m getting more and more into cycling now, and I can’t find people to cycle with. My dad’s a cyclist, but we live in two different parts of the city. It’s hard to find time, unless we leave from work. Now it’s like, do I have neighbors that ride bikes? Because I’ll ride with you.

John: Do I even know who my neighbors are anymore?

Will: Yeah, and then you’re going to be like — then you don’t want to be a weirdo. It’s far easier to date as an adult, in my opinion, than it is to make friends.

John: Hey, will you ride your bike with me?

Will: Would you like to go on a 30-mile bike ride with me? Oh, you don’t ride that far? Okay, never mind, we can just go less.

John: Right. I don’t really like you for that long of a time. That’s going to be weird. Such great advice, man. I love that. If your total social network is work only then start outside, start to expand that. As hard as it is, just do it. I love it, man.

It’s only fair though, at the beginning of the episode, I very rudely peppered you with questions, so it’s only fair that I turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Will Baker podcast. So, Mike Birbiglia, take that. Thanks for having me on. I’m all yours. Whatever you got, fire away.

Will: I’ll steal a question from him.

John: Okay.

Will: What is the smell that you distinctly remember?

John: Oh, a smell that I distinctly remember. Okay, my grandfather would smoke a pipe. That tobacco, I’m not even exactly sure what tobacco it was, but the can had a Hawaii look, I don’t know, but the pipe tobacco that he would smoke. Yeah, I vividly remember that, for sure. Does that count?

Will: Yeah, that counts. That’s one. Let’s see. Well, what about you, pizza or hamburgers.

John: I lived in New York City, so, pizza, hands down. Even bad pizza, it’s still pizza. Your McDonald’s hamburger is just not the same as like a really good bacon cheeseburger with the barbecue and loaded up and all that. So, pizza as well.

Will: There’s less parity in it.

John: Yeah.

Will: Since you were a New Yorker at one point, then let’s go a little deeper in the subject for our last question. What is the best style of pizza? You’re talking Neapolitan, New York style, obviously not Chicago.

John: Right.

Will: What’s your go-to style?

John: Somebody referred to Chicago as it’s not even pizza. It’s like a casserole, I think is what somebody referred to it as, because it’s so deep.

Will: Its ratios are all off.

John: It is. It is. There’s a lot to it. That’s for sure. Yeah, I think New York style. There’s a place just across the Brooklyn Bridge in Brooklyn called Juliana’s, which is probably the best pizza right there. It’s that coal oven that’s been grandfathered in, so they can’t come in and take it away.

Will: Yeah.

John: The pizza’s in there for like seven minutes, maybe. It’s just perfect. It’s just so hot and just gets to it, and then loaded up with all of the meats. Also maybe a couple of vegetables if you accidentally spill some on there, but all of the meats. There’s a place here in Colorado actually called Beau Jo’s, on the way up to the mountains. That’s pretty awesome because the crust there, the way they do the outside, it gets a little bit fluffier, almost like the deep dish, that deep but fluffy. At the end, they have bottles of honey. When you eat all the insides, then you have the crust, and then you put honey on it.

Will: Yes.

John: It’s really light. It’s almost like a croissant, kinda. It’s the only place I’ve seen do that. That’s a fun place too.

Will: There’s a place that I’m actually going to dinner tonight. There’s a place in Dallas called Cane Rosso, and they do a hot honey pizza that is so good.

John: Okay.

Will: So, so good. It’s awesome.

John: Very cool, man. Well, this has been so much fun having you be a part of What’s Your “And”? I appreciate it, Will.

Will: Yeah, of course. Hey, appreciate it. This was fun.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Will in action or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 385 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what this show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, barnesandnoble.com, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth on the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your organization’s culture, and I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Derek Abdekalimi. He’s the Director of Finance and Accounting of Green Bean CFO, and now he’s with me here today. Derek, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Derek: Hey, John. Thanks for having me.

John: Absolutely, man. This is going to be so much fun. Before we jump in, get to know Derek on a new level here with my rapid-fire questions. Hopefully you’re buckled in, got your seat belt fastened. Keep your arms and legs inside the car at all times. Okay, here we go. First one, favorite color.

Derek: I like all of them. I don’t really know what to say, but I like them all. There’s a reason for each one.

John: Okay. All right. So there’s no least favorite color then. No, I’m just kidding, man. That’s silly. All right, fair enough. How about talk or text?

Derek: Lately, it’s been a lot more text. Work, we don’t even talk all the time. It’s been more like texting or WhatsApp or Slack.

John: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. How about puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

Derek: I used to be really into Sudoku, and I’m trying to do crossword puzzles.

John: Okay, okay. Sudoku is how I do my tax returns.

Derek: Yeah.

John: Not at all what you should do at all. How about a favorite Disney character?

Derek: Oh. Well, now that they own Star Wars, I’m going to say Darth Vader.

John: Okay, all right. Yeah. You can get in through a loophole there. I like that. Fair enough. Fair enough. How about a favorite athlete?

Derek: Right now, and I know it’s kind of cliché, but I really like LeBron because even now, they were talking about mid-season that he should take a couple of days off, but he’s just the best player. He’s a really good defensive player, offensive, and I just like his work ethic. I’m reading about his diet and things like that. He’s just somebody that I really admire. I also really admire Muhammad Ali. I read the book about him, and he’s a real athlete and civil rights person. A lot of athletes really inspire me.

John: Yeah, yeah. LeBron does a ton for Cleveland and keep putting kids in school and even college. He does a lot for the community that he doesn’t really talk about, which is also cool. He doesn’t need all the attention. Would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

Derek: Lately, it’s been working at night because nobody is messaging you. I can get some things done and not have the distractions of the day.

John: Sure. That makes total sense. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Derek: Going back to liking Darth Vader, I used to be a really big Star Wars fan as a kid.

John: How about your computer, PC or a Mac?

Derek: I’m a Mac guy. I know everybody on this podcast is like, I love PCs. They’re better for accounting software, and I think the version of Excel is a little bit easier. There are more shortcuts, I think, on the PC than on the Mac, but my Mac has Final Cut Pro. I could edit ski videos for myself. Or Apple Care, so if I accidentally spill coffee on my laptop, I can go and get it fixed.

John: I feel like you’re speaking from some experience right now.

Derek: Yeah.

John: Maybe so. Maybe so. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Derek: You know what, I actually like making ice cream.

John: Oh, you make it yourself. Okay.

Derek: I’ve done it a couple times where it’s like the camping style where you do the two cans and the rock salt and threw in a bunch of random stuff. I did that at Yellowstone a couple of years ago.

John: Do you have a favorite flavor?

Derek: I really like the Ben and Jerry’s stuff where they just throw random things in.

John: Yeah, and chunks of stuff. I’m a huge fan of that.

Derek: Yeah, they figured out how to do it. There’s an Everything Bagel flavor that this brand makes that I want to try out.

John: Okay.

Derek: I do want to get the piece that you can put on a mixer. I just like good ice cream. I think one of the cool things about Ben and Jerry’s is they have brick and mortar. You can try it on a cone, and it’s really good.

John: Oh, man. Yeah, we’re going to have to hang out sometime, for sure.

Derek: Yeah, definitely.

John: Eat all the ice cream. How about seasons, favorite season, summer, winter, spring or fall?

Derek: I love them all.

John: Okay, all right.

Derek: It’s the whole year.

John: Because the colors are also in all the season.

Derek: Yeah.

John: That’s why, just keeping with the theme. I like it, man. All right. How about, ooh, the accountant background, a balance sheet or income statement?

Derek: Okay, I’m probably the second person on your podcast to say this, but I am a fan of the balance sheet. It’s not just, are we making money, but if you’re — for example, one of my clients, I could see them selling parts of their business or possibly going public in a couple of years, and they need a strong balance sheet if they want to go public. Or if I’m going to go and invest in a small business, I want to see that they’re handling everything. They’re not just profitable.

John: Right. There’s a lot more to the balance sheet. That’s for sure. Here’s one, chocolate or vanilla.

Derek: Probably chocolate, yeah.

John: All right. No, totally. How about when it comes to books, audio version, Kindle or real book?

Derek: All of them. It depends. If I’m traveling, I might get some audio books. I’ve been using the Libby app for the library a lot, and throwing that on my iPad. I also do print. I go to Barnes and Noble a lot because it’s the only actual bookstore near me. That’s how I got your book actually.

John: Yeah, well, thanks, man. Yeah, you got the printed version.

Derek: Yeah.

John: Yeah, totally, man, that’s awesome. Well, thank you. Two more, two more. Favorite day of the week. Favorite day of the week.

Derek: I don’t know.

John: Saturday because it’s not work?

Derek: Yeah, sure. It’s the one day of the week that I don’t work.

John: Yeah, there’s no work. It’s not like tomorrow there is work. Yeah. No, that works.

Derek: Yeah.

John: Okay. All right. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Derek: I don’t know.

John: Sounds like your Mac Book.

Derek: No, no, that’s definitely not my favorite thing that I own. There are things, I’ve got a lot of hobbies, so there are some things in my garage that — I just got a new pair of ski boots.

John: Okay.

Derek: Because of COVID, I can’t really spar with people, so I got a couple of punching bags from my garage.

John: There you go.

Derek: I can do that. I don’t know, just doing things at home or going for a walk or gardening, basic simple things.

John: That’s awesome, man. Very cool. Yeah, and that leads in perfectly to talking about the skiing and how you got started with that and with your new boots that you got for this season. Did you grow up skiing?

Derek: Yeah, it’s definitely a really big family thing. My wife’s also a skier, and her brothers are skiers, and my parents and my brothers. Everybody skis in my family.

John: Nice.

Derek: That’s how I started. Then I kind of took it my own way after college and moved to a ski town. I lived in Lake Tahoe for a bit, and I tried to ski or mountain bike whenever I could. There are some years where I put in 100 days on a mountain.

John: That’s awesome.

Derek: Yeah, and the attitude, even if it’s an icy day, I’m going to go, and I’m going to ski really hard. I’m from the East Coast, so I know, ice. When you go to Squaw Valley and it’s a bad winter, I’m the only person on Headwall because it’s just ice. They had a drought about five years ago, maybe six years ago, but just skiing that is fine.

John: That’s awesome. Do you have a favorite place that you’ve skied or a favorite go-to place?

Derek: There are a few places. I did actually think about that. I really like Banff. I have some family that lived in Calgary. I’ve been to Lake Louise at negative 50 degrees.

John: Oh, my Lord.

Derek: Yeah, it’s freezing. This one time, I wasn’t wearing the right base layers, and I didn’t have the right gloves. I was freezing, but I was also in this state of bliss, skiing.

John: Right. Right.

Derek: In the US, I’m going to have to say Squaw Valley because the people at Squaw are crazy. There’s a lot of people who are trying hawk cliffs and stuff like that, and you want to go and do that. There’s a run that’s named after Jonny Moseley that’s a crazy mogul run. There are all these really crazy runs. I love the snow at Utah. I have of a lot of different places.

John: Sure. No, it’s totally cool, man. That’s awesome, just to hear about them.

Derek: Yeah. Deer Valley in Utah, if you’re into groomers, that’s the best place ever. They do have some crazy mogul runs that they don’t groom that nobody skis. A spring day there is pretty good. Whistler is really good. Mammoth is really good. In Colorado, Telluride with Palmyra Peak where you’re almost at 14,000 feet, if you can hike that. I’m just going to say I love skiing.

John: Right? I love it, man. No, but those are all awesome places, and it’s really cool to hear that you’ve had the opportunity to ski at them.

Derek: I’ve skied pretty much the whole US, and I’ve skied three different provinces in Canada.

John: Which, are there more than three? I don’t even —

Derek: No, Canada is a big country.

John: I’m teasing. I know there are. I’m joking. All the Canadians right now are like, arr. That’s super cool, man. When you’re skiing, is it the freedom? Is it the break away from work? What is it about skiing that really lights you up so much?

Derek: Definitely the freedom and just trying to go as fast as I can. Even some of the more technical runs, I don’t really have falls. I fall more on green runs maybe because I’m more focused. If you fall, it’s just really bad, especially if it’s not on a powder day.

John: Yeah, yeah, totally. I also know that you also do Judo, and that’s been a newer thing.

Derek: Yeah. I like judo. It’s also more — well, skiing is more outside also, but Judo is, it’s a Japanese martial art. It’s in the Olympics. Many people on your podcast are talking about Brazilian jiu-jitsu. That’s how I started, doing Brazilian jiu-jitsu. I like to try different martial arts, so I went to a Judo class. They were, because I was starting, they were showing me falls and showing me different things that I wasn’t doing in jiu-jitsu.

This one dojo — there were some people who were national champions and black belts, I’ll say. I started switching over to Judo, and I even did some competitions. I’ve been able to score at Nationals.

John: Oh, congrats, man.

Derek: Thanks.

John: That’s really cool. That’s a lot of work.

Derek: Yeah. I like that it’s more international. To bring the two passions together, I know that I was supposed to go to Japan this year. I wanted to go practice at the Kodokan which is the school where it started, and get some certificates and go powder skiing.

John: Yeah, best of both right there.

Derek: Yeah, so the term Judo is gentle way. I think jiu-jitsu transfers to hard slow or hard soft or something. I can look that up. There’s a lot of, even being a smaller opponent, I’ve gone up against way bigger people who were maybe a couple weight classes bigger than me, and I’ve been able to throw them. This one guy in jiu-jitsu was an MMA fighter, and I was able to, because he doesn’t train with a gi, I was able to choke him, rolling, which was cool.

John: Right. That’s amazing, man.

Derek: Yeah, I love it. You go, afterwards, and you get a drink with everybody. You beat the crap out of each other, but it’s fun and…

John: Right, but it’s not like punching each other in the face.

Derek: No.

John: Yeah, it’s almost wrestling kind of martial arts, or is it —

Derek: Yeah. Also in jiu-jitsu, but Judo really focuses on your jacket. There are these different weaves. One of the weaves is a competition jacket, and they’re heavier. The fabric is stiffer, so you get a harder grip.

John: Oh, that makes sense. All right, I didn’t even think of that.

Derek: There’s grip, and there’s throwing people and being, I could turn — if you watch the UFC, you don’t see anybody even wearing a shirt because I could turn your shirt or your jacket into a weapon.

John: Oh, yeah. That’s true.

Derek: Early pride, you see some Judo guys wearing a jacket, and it’s a big disadvantage. That’s why in MMA, they don’t wear jackets or anything.

John: Oh, wow. That’s interesting. Yeah, I’m glad we do in the office, though, because weird. No, I’m just kidding. That’s awesome, man. That’s so cool to hear about. I didn’t even realize that. Do you feel like either the Judo or the skiing gives you a skill that you bring to accounting or to your career, maybe a mindset or something?

Derek: Definitely the Judo, and even sales because you go — or your career in comedy. They always talk about comedians bombing a lot and trying to figure out their own style and their own voice and connecting.

John: Yeah.

Derek: When you start with like Judo or jiu-jitsu, you’re just constantly — the first month in Judo, you’re just working on falling. That’s how you get your yellow belt is that you can take a throw. It’s like falling and getting up and going to competitions and facing unknown competitors. Even if you lose, everybody thinks you’re a better person because you actually went — like the man in the arena thing.

John: Yeah, totally. I love that quote.

Derek: Yeah. I think having anything that you get after. Another book that I really like is the Originals by Adam Grant.

John: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Really good book.

Derek: Yeah. They talk about — so, in accounting, it used to be, when I started, it was frowned upon to talk about your hobbies. Even, I interviewed at a sports camp, a sports organization, I’m not going to name them, but I’m a fan. The Tax Department was like, we don’t want to hire fans because we don’t want you to bother the athletes. Wouldn’t you want to hire someone who’s a big fan of, like, if you were at Notre Dame, someone who likes their football or something?

John: Oh, totally. All my friends that work there are also massive fans.

Derek: Yeah, that is really good culture, the organization.

John: Yeah, yeah.

Derek: Adam Grant talks about there’s this one thing about Nobel Prize scientists and you’re more likely to have a Nobel Prize and be a really good, some type of performing artists, whether it’s doing theater or violin or something like that. I’m not trying to make a living as a skier or in martial arts. If there was a way to make a living, maybe, but my job is good enough. I think having that outlet, baking, whatever your thing is, don’t be afraid that you like it and try to find people who like it, and don’t be fake.

John: Yeah, I love that, man. Don’t be fake. Totally. It’s have a genuine interest in those people. When I asked you about skiing and Judo, I want to know. I legit am interested in that.

Derek: Yeah.

John: I love that. Don’t be fake on telling people that you like skiing. If you’ve been once and you didn’t like it, well, don’t tell them that you like it because they’re going to keep asking you.

Derek: Yeah.

John: Just be genuine. I love that.

Derek: This took a while for me to figure out because I used to talk about it a lot and then it didn’t really fit in at work, but you’ve got to be yourself.

John: Yeah, and it depends on the workplace culture where you’re at. You can change it a little bit at a time, I think, even amongst a small group of two or three or four people. Maybe it grows from there. I love that idea and that mindset of it all. How much do you think it is on an organization to create an atmosphere where people can share their “and”, versus how much is it on the individual to make that difference themselves? Is the tone at the top really crucial?

Derek: It probably is, but I’m more of an individual person. I think it probably should be the people talking about it, even if you’re at a CPA firm. I know that they want you to work seven days a week or whatever.

John: Right. Or maybe eight if they could.

Derek: Yeah, or eight days.

John: Yeah, so it does matter for the individuals to step up and, yeah, just share a little bit.

Derek: Even at lunch.

John: Yeah, just at lunch.

Derek: What did you do over the weekend? Someone might say, “I went to watch the US Open.” That’s really cool. Use it as a way to talk to people. What do you do? How did you get into tennis? Or how did you get into skiing? I think it is some organizations because there are places — I tried to get a drink with everybody I work with, or coffee. There are some places where, like, the Accounting Department, nobody went out afterwards, but I made friends with this guy who worked in HR, and we hung out a bunch.

John: That’s super cool. That’s such a great example for people listening that maybe they feel like, well, my department doesn’t do this. Well, okay, but I’m sure other people do because they’re human. So, other departments, you can find somebody and just start small.

Derek: Yeah. When you’re back in the office, if you pass somebody in the hallway, say hi to them. If you pass somebody’s office every day, why don’t you knock on the door and introduce yourself and say, “Hey, I’m Derek. I work in the Accounting Department. What are you working on?” If they’re receptive to talking to you, that’s good. Or if they’re like, “Get away, I’m trying to do something,” then you don’t need to talk to that person.

John: Right. That’s a great example. It’s also great, if your name is actually Susie, just still use Derek as your — hi, I’m still Derek. That way, they’re like, who the hell’s this Derek that keeps coming by? It’s like, just people that listen to What’s Your “And”? That’s all. That’s all.

This has been awesome, man, and so encouraging. I just appreciate you, one, reading the book, but two, reaching out to be a guest on the show. It’s super cool to share your story with everybody. It’s only fair that since I started out the episode, firing away at you with rapid-fire questions, that I now turn the table and make this the first episode of The Derek Abdekalimi podcast. Thanks for having me on. Thanks, man. I’m all yours.

Derek: I guess my first question is, you have several “ands” as well, do you still do stand-up?

John: I don’t do comedy clubs anymore, no. That has been put on the shelf. I do take a lot of that experience and the skills that I learned from stand-up and apply them when I’m speaking at conferences and the all-staff meetings and retreats and things like that. No comedy clubs anymore, man. Sorry.

Derek: What’s your favorite ice cream?

John: Favorite ice cream probably is chocolate chip cookie dough, just because you can get it everywhere. It’s kind of hard to mess that one up. I still get the chunks in there. Yeah, anything with brownie bites or… I want the one ice cream where it melts, but then I want to also chew stuff after, type of thing. It also gets as many calories into my face as possible, so it’s probably not healthy. Yeah, chocolate chip cookie dough would be the super quick answer.

Derek: Is there a pizza that you like?

John: Oh, wow. Yeah. Here in Denver, there’s a — it might be a chain. There’s a handful of them, Ian’s Pizza. They make a pomodoro. It’s super good. It’s got feta cheese and spinach. We add pepperoni and then a sweet tomato sauce. That’s really good. When I lived in New York, there were plenty of good pizzas there. That’s for sure, New York City. Yeah, all the meat, all the meats, and then maybe a couple of vegetables on accident. This has been so much fun having you be a part of What’s Your “And”?, Derek. Thanks so much for taking time to be with me today.

Derek: Thanks for having me.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Derek in action, or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 383 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop and a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read the book to you, look for it on What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books.

The book goes into more in-depth of the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture, and I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Scott Shute. He’s the Head of Mindfulness and Compassion Programs at LinkedIn and the author of The Full Body YES: Change Your Work and Your World from the Inside Out. It just came out yesterday. Now he’s with me here today. Scott, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Scott: All right. Thanks, John. Thanks for having me.

John: Oh, absolutely, man. The book is awesome. I’m so excited for it to be out and excited for you to be on this journey as well. Congratulations on that.

Scott: Thanks very much. I appreciate it.

John: That’s no easy feat. That’s for sure. We’re going to get into some rapid-fire questions here, get to know Scott on a new level right out of the gate here. I’ll start you out with an easy one, a pretty easy one, I think.

Scott: We’ll see. We’ll see.

John: Yeah, we’ll see. Actually, we will see. Talk or text.

Scott: Talk.

John: Talk. Yeah. All right. How about puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

Scott: Oh, Sudoku.

John: Yeah. Nice.

Scott: I love numbers.

John: It’s more fun to say too, right?

Scott: Sou desu.

John: Right? There you go. How about a favorite color?

Scott: Oh, blue, all the time, every day.

John: Yeah, mine too, hands down.

Scott: Dark blue like indigo, that type of blue, really specific, right in between day and night blue.

John: Ooh, that is good. I like that one. How about a least favorite color?

Scott: Brown.

John: Oh, yeah.

Scott: Dirty like when you spilled paint and it all meshes together.

John: Oh, it’s just —

Scott: It’s not really a color. It’s a color, but it’s not a color.

John: It’s like a brown purple. It’s like, how is this possible?

Scott: It’s the color that, in the crayon box, you just, you don’t use that one.

John: No, no. It’s always nicely pointed.

Scott: Right.

John: I thought that was just me that had those. That’s hilarious. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Scott: Oh, wow. Matt Damon. If the story of my life is ever told on screen, Matt Damon should be the one. So, Matt, if you’re out there, let’s chat.

John: He’s out there. He’s out there.

Scott: He’s out there.

John: Is he listening? That’s the question.

Scott: Somebody pass this on to Matt, say this is perfect opportunity.

John: Right. Give him a call. Have his people call Scott’s people. How about are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Scott: Early.

John: Early. Okay.

Scott: Yeah, always get the worm.

John: Yeah, that’s very mindfulness of you. Yeah, it’s hard to be mindful at night, I feel.

Scott: Sometimes.

John: Yeah, yeah. How about a favorite Disney character?

Scott: Oh, Pumba.

John: Oh.

Scott: Is that Disney? I think that’s Disney.

John: Yeah.

Scott: Right? Lion King?

John: Anything animated, I count.

Scott: Yeah. Okay.

John: I think so.

Scott: I’m going with that then, Pumba.

John: Pumba. Solid answer, solid answer. I love it. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Scott: Both, man. I mean, I’d go Star Trek just because you have to wait longer in-between the movies.

John: And there’s a billion episodes of Star Trek, I feel like.

Scott: Yeah, that’s true. That’s true, but the movies, I’m going to go with the movies from Star Trek.

John: Oh, the movies, yeah, yeah. The Star Trek movies, yeah, yeah. No, there we go. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Scott: PC just because that’s what we always use at work. I just got in that groove.

John: Yeah, yeah, me too. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Scott: Wow. Chocolate filled with chocolate covered with chocolate.

John: Yes.

Scott: Deep chocolate infused.

John: With brownies and all the chunks.

Scott: Totally.

John: How can I maximize the calories in this spoon that I’m shoving in my face?

Scott: Exactly.

John: I love it, man. That’s awesome. How about favorite season, spring, summer, fall or winter?

Scott: Wow. I think spring because there’s this time when the new buds come out. It’s like, oh, here we go. Right about when we’re recording this, the time is about to change. That’s my favorite time when you — all of a sudden it’s an hour later of light.

John: Right? Just out of nowhere. What? It’s like, just two days ago, it was still dark right now. Now I’m not falling asleep. That’s neat. That’s awesome. Very cool. How about a favorite day of the week?

Scott: Ooh, I think Saturday because you don’t have to go to the work the next day. You wake up, and you’ve got 48 hours or whatever ahead of you. It’s like, oh, this is mine. I get to do it.

John: Yeah. No, I love it. I love it. It’s also when college football happens, so that’s good.

Scott: That’s true. That’s true.

John: Everything good happens on Saturday. How about, oh, here we go, toilet paper roll, over or under?

Scott: Oh, got to be over.

John: Over. Yeah. It’s how the patent is. I think that’s how it goes.

Scott: Oh, and while we’re on it, the best thing that has happened during the quarantine is the Tushy.

John: Oh, right. That’s maybe the answer, no toilet paper. Tushy.

Scott: Yeah, Tushy, you’ve got to get a Tushy. Seriously, the absolute best thing that happened during quarantine is the Tushy.

John: It should be, if you buy Scott’s book, The Full Body YES, you get the full body Tushy.

Scott: As long as the owners of Tushy are willing to give one with every book.

John: Right. Exactly. Matt Damon, if you’re listening out there, hook us — no.

Scott: Right.

John: He’s the spokesperson now. How about, oh, mindfulness, here we go, yoga or meditation? Or are they the same? I’m not even sure.

Scott: I like them both.

John: Oh, they are different. Okay, good.

Scott: They’re different. Well, for me, yoga is about moving. I like them both, but I really like yoga to move my body and stretch because it just feels good.

John: Cool. I was worried that you were going to be like, actually, John, you can meditate while doing yoga. I was like, is that sleeping?

Scott: Well, that’s a technicality.

John: Right, right. Well, thank you, man. I appreciate you adhering to my silly rules. How about — three more — do you have a favorite number?

Scott: Seven.

John: Seven. Yeah, mine too. Is there a reason?

Scott: I’ve always liked it. It’s lucky. Also my Enneagram number is seven.

John: Oh, there you go. Okay. Yeah, mine was probably mostly sports.

Scott: Yeah, mine, too, started that way.

John: Yeah, and then you justify it. How about books, real book, Kindle or audio version?

Scott: Real. I don’t like reading electronically. It just didn’t do it for me.

John: I’m the same. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Scott: Oh, I have a Martin D-35 guitar actually.

John: Nice.

Scott: It’s the very first thing I bought when I graduated from college. Before I bought furniture for my apartment, I bought this guitar, and I had literally a box that I would sit on and play this guitar.

John: That’s incredible. I love that so much. That’s so awesome, and you still have it.

Scott: I do.

John: That’s so great. That’s super awesome, man. Did you know how to play guitar before that, or was it —

Scott: Yes. Yes, I did. I had my brother’s hand-me-down guitar that I played for a few years, which was a nice guitar, but I wanted my own, man. So, I got a Martin.

John: Exactly. That’s so great, and then you sit on a box while you play it.

Scott: Yeah, a milk crate.

John: Right. Yeah, totally. Absolutely. That’s incredible. That’s awesome, man. I love it. I love it so much, which dovetails perfectly into your “ands”, two of them, musician and photographer. Let’s do music first since we’re on the subject. Did you grow up playing music?

Scott: I grew up in a super musical family.

John: Oh, okay.

Scott: I’m the youngest of five kids. This goes back to my great grandfather who lived to be 100. He was a bandleader, like the John Philip Sousa type of band leader, back in the 1910s. In fact, John Philip Sousa barnstormed through my grandfather’s little town of 1,000 people, and they actually got to play together. He played trombone. My grandmother, his daughter, was the pianist at church for 85 years. She was the pianist at church, maybe 80 years. My mom was the choir director at church, and all of us grew up in the church, played music, sang my first solo at age five. I played trombone in school.

In college, I wanted to join my buddy’s band. They were full. They’re like, oh, we already have a singer. What do you play? I’m like, well, I sing. They’re like, no, we already have a singer. I’m like, well, F you guys, man. I’m going to build my own band.

John: This was before ska. You can bring your trombone to the ska band.

Scott: Totally. So I taught myself to play acoustic guitar, and I’ve been writing music and singing and playing ever since college.

John: That’s very cool, man. I played the trombone in college myself.

Scott: Yeah?

John: Yeah, total goofball instrument.

Scott: Oh, total you have to be a goofball. There are no normal people. I’m air quoting normal. We’re all goofballs.

John: Exactly. That’s awesome, man. That’s so cool, another trombone player. It’s like, you never meet them. They’re all hiding.

Scott: Oh, yeah. They won’t admit it, but we’re out.

John: Right, right.

John: I still have mine in the — I can go get it. No one wants to hear that on the podcast.

Scott: No, later. There’ll be a special edition.

John: A guitar is much better. People want to hear that. They recognize the song. It’s not a bunch of whole notes that no one hears the song. That’s cool. You taught yourself how to play. Did you perform or were you…

Scott: A little bit and mostly just for myself, and I taught myself to play before YouTube. Oh, my God, it is so much easier now.

John: Right.

Scott: Back in the old days, you actually had to buy sheet music. You’d find some artist you like. For me, way back when, it was Tracy Chapman or James Taylor or Indigo Girls. You’d have to buy a whole book just to learn one song.

John: Or not even the song, the chorus of the song.

Scott: Right, and then it was probably written for piano. Now, you just go to YouTube, and there are 27 different versions, depending on your vocal range. Now it’s so much easier. Yeah, I taught myself. I mostly did not play out. I played for friends. Now, I’ll play for — every year, we have a block party, and my buddy and I, we play music. I wish I was as good when I was 20 as I am now because I totally would have done more of it. I would have gone out more.

John: That’s an interesting thing that’s come up from all the interviews, is instead of I’m a guitarist, it’s I enjoy playing the guitar.

Scott: Yeah.

John: Then it doesn’t matter if you’re good because I enjoy it. I’m not giving myself the label, and it takes a lot of the pressure off and all that. Because I feel like a lot of us, we don’t share it as much because people are going to judge or I’m not very good as the person that’s down the street. That’s like, yeah, but they’re amazing, and you’re also good.

Scott: For me, it’s just about that release. It’s funny. I’m getting asked — okay, so now, more people know me at work. I’m going to air quote, celebrity. I’m not exactly a celebrity, but more people know me at work. I got invited to do this show with this creative group at work. I’m supposed to play this original song. I’m going through my catalogue. I probably have 20 or 25 songs. What I realized — now my title is I’m Head of Mindfulness and Compassion, right? I’m going to play this song for these people. What I realized… You see where this is going?

John: I do. This is awesome. There’s nothing compassion in your songs.

Scott: No, exactly. The music that I’ve been writing has been a release for me. It’s all this angry stuff or whatever it is because I wrote it for me. I didn’t write it to play.

John: Right.

Scott: I was like, I’m going to throw these songs — oh, no. Oh, that’s not going to work. I realized that my music has been cathartic. I’m not writing, generally, I’m not writing these happy meditation songs. I’m raging, or I’m in emotional distress. This is my outlet. So I’m going to have to figure out my whole new genre of how these two things come together.

John: There would totally be an episode at the office where we have a mindfulness guy play a song, just whatever. No, that’s super cool, man. That’s great. I think it’s cool, too, that you’re writing your own music. That takes it to another level of that release and that cathartic nature of it which is pretty awesome.

Scott: Totally.

John: Well, that’s cool. That’ll be fun to see how that goes.

Scott: I’m still working on that. I may have to write a new one actually.

John: Write a new one.

Scott: I’m all self-conscious about it because —

John: Don’t be too happy. It’ll be too much.

Scott: Yeah, nobody will want that either.

John: You just write the melancholy, the down the middle, I’m not too happy, I’m also not angry. I’m right in the middle.

Scott: Or it’s got to be like, it starts with you really angry or melancholy and then ends like you find your true —

John: There you go.

Scott: That’s a hard song to write.

John: That is a hard song to write. I would just learn a new one.

Scott: Yeah.

John: I would just… That’s hilarious. Photography, as well, is a big thing. Is that something from when you were younger, or did you get into that later?

Scott: I have always loved photography. I probably got into it, I don’t know, as a teenager, as a young adult, but I really, really got into it, probably four or five years ago. My son had gone to college. We had done everything together. All of a sudden I needed a new outlet. So I bought a new camera, and I taught myself how to use Lightroom and Photoshop and went deep.

John: Okay.

Scott: Turned the dial from three to 11 on the… Nine goes to 11 and goes to —

John: Right, right.

Scott: So, have gotten really serious about that. I have a commercial website. I’m selling photography. I used to travel a lot and take my camera with me. Now I travel to use my camera. I’ll go on specific adventures just to do photography. That’s been super cool.

John: That is awesome. Do you feel like either the music or the photography gives you a skill that you’ve brought to your career, or something that accidentally transcends over?

Scott: In different ways, for sure. The music, to be able to stand in front of people on stage and play a song that you wrote, is an incredibly vulnerable thing.

John: Oh, totally.

Scott: Here’s another thing that we didn’t even talk about is I did theater. I was doing electrical engineering as my major, but I wasn’t on fire with it, to be honest with you. It was very practical, and I wanted to get a job after I was done. So, for fun, I took all these theater classes and music classes. I took 40 or 50 hours’ worth of music and theater classes.

John: That’s incredible.

Scott: What I found is, what I’ll tell people today is the most valuable class I took in all of college and all my classes was improv. It was called Creative Dynamics, but it was essentially improv because you were in front of people, and you had to be on. How this skill has translated as an executive or as a leader is, what happens is this one time, my boss calls me. He’s like, “Hey, Shute, what are you doing?” I’m like, “I’m working. What are you doing?” He’s like, “Hey, well, I was just sitting here with the CEO, and we were talking about your new plan. Maybe you should just come over and talk about it.” I’m like, you’ve got to be kidding me.

John: Right?

Scott: This thing I’ve been preparing for months, and I have the pitch for it. Instead of all that, we’re just going to go talk to the CEO about it right now.

John: Back of the napkin, just, yeah, put on your dancing shoes. Let’s see it, Scott. Let’s see it.

Scott: I had 70 seconds in the walk to the CEO’s office to figure that out.

John: Right?

Scott: It all comes back to this. When you’re standing in front of a crowd, you’ve got to take care of all your emotions and your body, and get composed. It’s all the same thing. It’s all this acting. It’s all this music performance and getting ready for it. It’s totally that, for me, has been the most important skill in life, is being able to communicate like that.

John: No, it’s totally right. You’re exercising that muscle through your music. So then when it’s go time at the office, you’re not going from zero to 60. It’s like, well, no, I’ve been doing this regularly. I can actually do this successfully, and there’s expertise that we have outside of our electrical engineering undergrad.

Scott: Totally.

John: Unfortunately, most people see your college degree and then they go, well, that’s your expertise. It’s like, no, no, so much more expertise that people have that we don’t even care to find out about.

Scott: That’s right. I was just thinking about, even on LinkedIn. I work at LinkedIn, right? On your LinkedIn profile, you can put your hobbies, and I encourage people to tell their whole story. How often does a recruiter or a hiring manager go there first and go, “Oh, dude, tell me about when you were on the crew team in college. Or tell me about what does it mean to you to do photography or to do music, and how does that translate?” How much better would every interview be if they started that way?

John: Yeah, and it’d be more fun for the interviewer, the person interviewing the person as well. It’s a much more — you’re going to be around these people more waking hours than your family. What lights them up?

Scott: Really, who cares what grade you got on Electromagnetics Theory 2?

John: Right? Because it was a D, and if it wasn’t, then you were trying too hard.

Scott: No, funny story, actually, I got to a B in that class. It was one of the proudest moments in history because it was a weed-out class. Literally, 60% of the class got D’s or worse, and I got a B. I don’t know how.

John: Wow, good for you, man. That’s top 15%, man. That’s impressive.

Scott: This will probably be the only time that I get to drop my grade that I got in emag, so, thank you, John, for this opportunity.

John: No, you’re welcome. That’s what What’s Your “And”? is all about. One of my rapid-fire questions is typically, what grade did you get on your junior year exam? I was like, he’ll bring it up in conversation. That’s what Scott does.

Scott: Exactly. His ego is so huge he’s got to drop his grade in emag.

John: Scott B. Shute. I love that. I love how that those skills translate over and that you’re aware of it. How does the mindfulness and the compassion work into work? Because I definitely want to get to that as well. You wrote a whole book on it.

Scott: Sure.

John: I think it’s really important and really key because I feel like both of our messages are different, but their puzzle piece together nicely.

Scott: Right. First of all, most of my day job for the last 25 or 30 years, oh, I don’t even want to count, lots of years, has been in customer support leadership. At LinkedIn, I led global customer operations which is essentially all of the customer-facing stuff that’s not sales. As you might imagine, big job, stressful job. Throughout my career, always have customer issues that are happening and big organizations that there’s always some mess going on. So, mindfulness has always been a big part of my life. It’s something that I’ve started practicing when I was 13. I started teaching when I was in college. It’s always been a big part of who I was as a person, but I never really, I’m air quoting, came out as a meditator until a few years ago at LinkedIn.

I realized it was such a cool place that I could bring it to work. I started by leading a meditation class at work. That became a thing. Then I raised my hand to be the executive sponsor for our mindfulness program. We didn’t have one, so we created one, still, while I was in my old job. Then through a series of events, I raised my hand and asked if I could create this role, and so I’ve been in this role —

John: I love it.

Scott: Yeah, as a full time gig for the last two and a half years. I’m Head of Mindfulness and Compassion. For me, it’s about, I call it changing work from the inside out, mainstreaming mindfulness, operationalizing compassion. So, mindfulness is just about the development of ourselves, and trying to make mindfulness or meditation, like mental exercise, just as commonplace as physical exercise. That’s part of my gig. The other part — and, oh, my God, during pandemic, who doesn’t need help with their mental well-being, right?

John: Oh, my goodness, yeah, everyone.

Scott: On the compassion side, it’s about, okay, this is how we work together. How do we sell products? How do we build products? How do we treat each other inside the company? There’s tons of work to do to codify what does it mean to be compassionate to each other so we can be more successful? Not just because it’s some nice woo-woo thing, but, no, so we can be more successful in business.

John: It’s both. Yeah, and it impacts the bottom line. Yeah, yeah. It’s not like coddling the younger generation, which I think a lot of people are like. It’s like, no, no, everybody wants this. This isn’t a younger thing at all. It’s just they’re allowed to speak up about it because there’s the internet, and they can get another job tomorrow.

Scott: That’s right. Look, if you’re a millennial that got raised by woke parents, parents who told you, you could be anything and do anything and just follow your heart; you don’t want to work for some jerk boss, doing some dumb job that doesn’t mean anything in the world. You want to work for people who care about you and care about their customers and care about the work that we do. The work is changing.

John: Yeah. No, it very much is. That’s awesome, man. That’s what your book is a lot about, which is cool. Yeah, that’s really cool. How much is it on the organization to create that space where mindfulness and compassion is part of just what we do, where sharing your — your story is so incredibly cool, where I meditate and then, hey, I could do a couple of workshops. Now you’re the head of — a job that didn’t even exist for a group that didn’t even exist five years ago. How much is it on the organization to create that space where, whether it’s compassion or mindfulness or sharing your “and”? Or how much is on the individual to raise their hand and be like, hey?

Scott: Well, I think it’s both, but if you don’t have a safe space to share, then we just retreat, right? Here’s what I found. This is how I got there. Our CEO was onstage talking about his own meditation practice using Headspace.

John: Oh, wow.

Scott: That created this umbrella of safety for me to say, okay, well, I guess it’s okay for me to then talk about my thing. I was a VP at the time. That creates an umbrella for everybody in my org and other orgs to also come out and go, well, actually, I do this too, and I’m willing to not talk about it at work. So then all of a sudden, everybody’s talking about what they do, in a way that’s open. This is how it happens.

People will come. If you build it, they will come. If you create this space where they can talk about what they’re passionate about, and they can bring their whole self to work, then you can have really cool conversations about not just meditation or compassion or whatever, but music or creativity. You start putting these creative people together. All of a sudden, they’re like, wow, I get to talk about this at work.

Just think about your own life in times when you felt super lit up about some project that you were doing because something about it sparked inside of you, versus a project where you’re like, oh, wow, well, this kind of sucks, but I’ve got to get it done because I need the pay. Which of these things are you going to get better results from the employee on? It just makes sense.

John: Even if those projects are mundane, which is what happens at work, you can talk about the music or the photography or the outside-of-work thing as part of it. Then you bring that energy to work. You’re around people that they know what you get lit up with and vice versa, and they care about you. It’s like a genuine care. Hey, I’d love to see your pictures, Scott. Or what song have you written lately? What did you bash in the latest song that you were angry about? Totally. I was listening to Rage Against the Machine, and they sound a little too soft for you. That’s cool because then it’s like, wow, they care about me, not just the technical skills me.

Scott: Exactly. Even if we just started every staff meeting, if there are six or eight or 10 of us in a staff meeting, just going around, hey, what’s something cool you did this weekend? Not everybody has to share if they don’t want to, but what this does is it takes our guards down. We’re treating each other as human beings first and building those connections first. It’s from that energy then, okay, well, now let’s go talk about this accounting spreadsheet or this sales presentation or this — I mean, then we’re alive, right? That same aliveness goes into the “mundane,” and the mundane doesn’t have to be mundane.

John: I love it, man. That’s exactly it. That’s super cool, man. Super cool. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that has a hobby that has nothing to do with their job, or they feel like no one’s going to care?

Scott: Talk about it. Whether you’re a meditator or a musician or a hobby or whatever, what we’re saying is about vulnerability. I think of it like an iceberg. All of us are like an iceberg. Most of us just expose that very tip. If we lower the waterline, if we lower the waterline, and we’re like, hey, I want to share this. Look, when we’re met with resistance, we’ll be like, we all just draw the waterline right back up.

John: Totally.

Scott: That’s fine.

John: And then some.

Scott: And then some. If you draw the waterline down and you share with people and you’re met with openness, then they want to do the same thing, and the waterline continues to drop. So, what I’d say is, especially if you’re a leader, is be the first mover. Have the courage to be the first mover, and who knows what you’ll find? Maybe you’ll need to draw the waterline back up. Or maybe it will just keep going, and you’ll end up creating something magical. Be the first mover.

John: Or you create a new job for yourself.

Scott: Yeah.

John: There’s that. No, I love it, man. That’s such great advice. It’s one of those that’s simple but not easy, but you’ve got to take a step.

Scott: That’s right.

John: I love that, man. This has been awesome. Before I wrap it up, I feel like it was very rude of me to pepper you with questions at the very beginning, so we will turn the tables. Welcome to the first episode of the Scott Shute podcast.

Scott: That’s right. That’s right. It is my turn.

John: Right, it’s on you.

Scott: Here we go, John. All right, John, if you could spend the rest of your life in living just one month, like Groundhog Day, you have to live this one month that you’ve already lived over and over and over for the rest of your life, what month out of your life that you’ve already lived would you choose?

John: A specific month in a year?

Scott: You may not have to remember it, but like, when I was 18, the last month —

John: Oh, in my life.

Scott: Yeah, in your life.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Scott: You get to relive it. You can change the outcome every month.

John: Oh, right, because it’s Groundhog Day.

Scott: It’s Groundhog Day.

John: All right. Wow, that is a good one, yeah, because there’s been a lot of cool things that happened. I don’t know. I’ll probably say October of 2016, maybe. That was the first time I was able to go on the sidelines for a Notre Dame football game, from working with them and stuff and then got to go to several games and be on the sidelines for all of them. Yeah, I could do that all the time.

Scott: You could meet lots of interesting people if you had a whole lifetime to spend.

John: Oh, yeah. Jon Bon Jovi’s son was on the team, so he would be on the sidelines at one game. He had gray hair, so he wasn’t touring, Bon Jovi.

Scott: See, by the end of that month, you could cut an album with Bon Jovi.

John: Oh, yeah, because we can just, hey, what are you doing here? I’ve been practicing my guitar while singing on a milk crate, and I’m good now. It’ll be angry Bon Jovi songs with you in on it. Matt Damon will be playing the drums.

Scott: Exactly. Okay, that was the hardest one first. Here are two easy ones. If you could have any superpower, what superpower would you have?

John: Oh, okay. One would be to sing. I’m a terrible singer. I know that’s not a superpower, but I look at it as a superpower because if you’re a good singer, you suck because I can’t. I would love to be able to sing a song while dunking a basketball.

Scott: Ooh, that’s a superpower.

John: I might be the only 6’3” guy that can’t dunk. I don’t know why, but I just… Yeah.

Scot: Those are two superpowers. All right, we’re getting greedy here, but that’s fine. That’s fine.

John: It’s your show. My bad.

Scott: That’s right. If you could have any animal as a pet, and it would be tame and do whatever you wanted it to, what animal would you choose?

John: Dolphin. Hands down, dolphin. Dolphins are the coolest animals ever in the history of ever. They’re super smart. They’re super hilarious.

Scott: What would you do with your dolphin?

John: Save the world? I don’t know, just everything.

Scott: Here’s John and his sidekick, the dolphin. So, you get to travel around with a truck that has a tank in it with your dolphin?

John: I feel like I would be the sidekick. I feel it would be almost like a ventriloquist where the dummy is the one driving the show.

Scott: That is awesome. I imagine you do. I imagined you on a motorcycle with your little goggles and the dolphin with its little goggles in a sidecar that’s filled with water, chirping. Let’s go save the world, John.

John: I just chuck fish overhead. That would be the coolest thing ever. Could you imagine? If that happened in October of 2016, this would all be heaven right now.

Scott: Look at you. That would be amazing.

John: Yeah, that’s a good one. That’s a good one. Well, no, I appreciate it, Scott. This has been so much fun having you be a part of What’s Your “And”? Congrats on the book, and I appreciate it.

Scott: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. It’s been fun.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Scott or connect with him on social media or get the link to Full Body YES: Change Your Work and Your World from the Inside Out, just came out yesterday, be sure and check it out. All the links at whatsyourand.com. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 381 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read the book to you, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. It’s out now.

The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading the book and writing such great reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Emma Loggins. She’s the director of Strategy and founder of Excite Creative Studios in Atlanta, and the founder and editor-in-chief of Women’s Business Daily. Now she’s with me here today. Emma, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Emma: Hi. Thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.

John: This is going to be so much fun. I’m exhausted just reading all of the things that you do, and I have a podcast, so, good for you.

Emma: Thank you.

John: That’s very impressive and really, really cool stuff that we’ll jump into. First, I have my rapid-fire questions, get to know Emma right out of the gate here. So, seat belts on, keep your hands inside the car at all times, here we go. How about a favorite color?

Emma: Emerald green.

John: Emerald green. Okay, all right. How about a least favorite color?

Emma: Yellow.

John: Yellow. Interesting. All right. How about a favorite Disney character?

Emma: Oh, gosh, that’s so hard. I’m going to go with my favorite Disney animated movie, Oliver from Oliver and Company.

John: Okay, all right. Nice. I haven’t heard that one before. That’s very good, very good. All right, how about a favorite actor or actress?

Emma: Favorite actor would be Viggo Mortensen. Favorite actress, oh, my goodness, that one’s really hard. We’ll go with Sandra Bullock.

John: Oh, classic. There you go. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Would you say more of an early bird or a night owl?

Emma: Early bird.

John: Oh, this is a tricky one, talk or text.

Emma: Text.

John: Text. The podcast is going to be really hard. We’ll get through it though. We’ll get through it. How about for puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

Emma: Crossword.

John: Crossword, yeah. All right. Here we go, Star Wars or Star Trek.

Emma: Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. Yeah, me too. Me too, easily. Your computer, more of a PC or a Mac.

Emma: Mac.

John: Mac. Oh, yeah, the creative side of you. There you go. I’m not even allowed in the Mac stores, I don’t think. They’re like, you wait outside. How about a favorite ice cream flavor? I’m a huge ice cream junkie.

Emma: My favorite all-time was one called Heath Bar Crunch by Ben and Jerry’s. They don’t make it anymore.

John: Oh, no.

Emma: I still talk about it daily. So good.

John: That sounds amazing.

Emma: It was.

John: Yeah, and we need to get them on that. Oh, favorite day of the week.

Emma: Friday.

John: Friday. Okay. All right. How about chocolate or vanilla?

Emma: Chocolate.

John: Chocolate. There you go. How about a favorite number?

Emma: 13.

John: 13. Is there a reason?

Emma: I’ve just always really liked it. It might be part of just the genre geek in me, like Friday the 13th or just the mystical nature that surrounds the number 13. I’ve just always been very drawn to it.

John: No, I love it. That’s awesome. How about books, audio version, Kindle or the real book?

Emma: As of lately, probably audio book.

John: Okay. All right. Yeah, because people kept asking me and I was like, wow, I didn’t know people did that so much or wanted to hear my voice. I was like, all right. It’s out now, everybody. There you go. How about a TV show you binge watch?

Emma: Oh, my gosh, I binge watched so many.

John: Right. You can do more than one if you want. You don’t have to limit it.

Emma: I’m re-binging Friends now because my husband has never seen it from beginning to end, but my favorite series I’ve ever binge watched, I’ll do two. I’ll say Lost and then Community.

John: Oh, okay. Very different but good shows.

Emma: Very different shows.

John: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That’s awesome. Two more. Rain or snow.

Emma: Rain.

John: Rain. Okay. Last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Emma: Oh, my goodness, my favorite thing that I own. You know what, for keeping it short and quick, I have a baby Yoda statue. We’ll go with baby Yoda.

John: That’s awesome. I saw it in the background as we chat on the video for this. Yeah, I was like, that’s clearly in the top five.

Emma: Yeah.

John: That’s very cool. Very cool. So, let’s chat blogging, especially for FanBolt. How did you get started with blogging? When I was in school, I had enough writing assignments that I didn’t want to write more. You were like, you know what, I’m taking this next level. How did that all get started?

Emma: I always was a fan of writing. I would write stories constantly when I was a kid. When I got a computer and started spending time online and exploring what it meant to have a website, I had a front page For Dummies book that I remember I had that I looked through, and I had a GeoCities website. I was in seventh grade or something. It was very early days of everyone having access essentially to the internet. It was still dial-up, but it was widely available.

I just started playing around with making sites and then writing about things that I loved on those sites. That’s really how FanBolt came to be. I started that site in 2002, after I’d made a series of TV show sites where I had written about my theories or things that had happened in various episodes or what my thoughts were on them. Then those shows would get canceled or they’d come to an end. I built up this following and put so much time and effort into the site, and now the show was done. It was like, well, this sucks.

John: Right. Right.

Emma: Yeah, so I was like, you know what, let’s just start a general kind of geek movie, TV show site where I can talk about everything. When one show ends, there are still other things to talk about that would be relevant to people. Yeah, that’s how it all came to be. I started the site in March of 2002.

John: Wow, that’s incredible, 19 years. That’s impressive.

Emma: I know. It’s an adult. That’s how I look at it. I’m like, an adult.

John: Right. Yeah. I was like, graduate high school already. That’s amazing. I’m catching the theme between the Ben and Jerry’s ice cream and the TV shows that you had websites for you. I feel like this is the last episode of the What’s Your “And”? podcast, everybody. This is the end of the road for — no, I’m just kidding.

That’s such a great idea of why not make it a bigger community and a bigger thing. Even myself, I think that something’s a big idea, and it’s like, no, there’s something bigger out there. Good for you for pushing through that a long time ago. You were way ahead. That’s really cool. Have there been some rewarding benefits from this or cool stories that have happened because of the community that you’ve built over time?

Emma: Yeah, absolutely, so many cool stories. When I started it in 2002, the message board community was really the beating heart of the site. I would blog about a number of different things, but there was a really robust community at the core of it. At its peak, I think we were just over about 200,000 members on the message board.

John: Oh, wow.

Emma: It was insane. There were so many cool stories over the years. I had a group of maybe about, we’ll say 13 because it’s my favorite number, of core members from the very beginning. It was definitely between 10 and 20 of them, and they were located all over the world. The ones that were located here in the US, if I went to New York, I would see a couple of them. We’d hang out and go to dinner. It was so much fun. I had two members that actually met on the site and got married.

John: Oh, wow.

Emma: Yeah. There’s a ton of cool community stories that were there. For me, I think the coolest thing still that happened, I was living, always have lived in Atlanta, Georgia and was running the site from Atlanta, Georgia, really before Atlanta became a big player in the film industry. Film and television wasn’t really a big thing here at that time. I was blogging about a show called The OC, and I got this email randomly one day from Warner Brothers saying, “We saw your site. We’d love for you to come and blog for our official site for the show.”

John: Nice.

Emma: I was, what?

John: Right?

Emma: It was crazy to me because that was Hollywood reaching out to me, and it’s just not something I ever had planned for or a goal that I had. It just fell into my lap, and it was just the coolest opportunity. So, I blogged with them on the official OC fan club site for three years until that series ended, and really used that opportunity to network my butt off anyone that I could talk to, connect with.

I started getting opportunities to do interviews and set visits. All of it just growing really at the same time that social media was just starting to become a thing. It was a very interesting time to be in that world and get to travel and meet people that I’d looked up to and I’d idolized, get to interview them and share that on social media and then share that on the site. It was just so many, so many really cool experiences.

John: Yeah, because then you get to see the behind-the-scenes of what it’s really like on set and what actually happens when you’re there and what the people are actually like, not the characters that they’re playing on the show or whatever.

Emma: Exactly.

John: Yeah. Wow, that’s awesome. That’s really, really cool because you just started it as a fan of these shows. Now you’re on set and then they reach out to you. Good for you. That’s really awesome.

Emma: Thank you.

John: Yeah, if you didn’t throw yourself out there, then that never would have happened.

Emma: Exactly.

John: That’s really awesome. Do you feel like any of those blogging skills translated to your career, if you will, at all?

Emma: Absolutely. I had already done a couple of like freelance sites for just random businesses in the community by the time I had started FanBolt. I was going to school to get my — I got both my Bachelor’s and my Master’s degree in Computer Arts and Media, so it was a strong focus on web design and kind of bigger picture of multimedia in general, with audio and video thrown into it. I would always turn FanBolt in for my school projects just so I could — you know, two birds, one stone, it was —

John: Might as well.

Emma: Yeah, why not?

John: Right? Get new ideas from the professors. It’s like, oh, yeah, I never even thought about it. Okay.

Emma: Exactly. It was so much fun, and being able to try things out on FanBolt, looking back at the design evolution of the site and really seeing my design skills grow. So much of what I do now with Excite is building communities for people. Organizations will come to me or sites that want to have a community its core. FanBolt’s the number one portfolio piece that I have for that. Same thing with Women’s Business Daily. They’re both sites that thrive off of the community that’s built on them, and they’re both set up in a way with search engine optimization to rank highly for keywords that are relevant to that audience to bring people in organically. All of that is something that I’ve had the opportunity to learn, explore, test all of that with FanBolt.

John: That’s such a great point because you have this prototype, if you will, but it’s actually live and going. You can be a little more forgiving to yourself on that, but then when you have a client that’s actually paying you, then it’s like, well, yeah, I’ve got all these skills because I’ve been exercising that muscle, if you will, over here on FanBolt. That’s cool.

Emma: Yeah.

John: Is FanBolt something that comes up with clients or coworkers, throughout your career?

Emma: Absolutely. Most of the clients that I have, they’re clients, but they’re also friends. We spend a lot of time working and collaborating together. I love it being that type of relationship. It’s always something where, when you’re able to bond over something outside of just work, and you’re able to see each other as humans and not just service provider client, I think it really enriches the overall relationship and the kind of working culture between you and someone. I always point out that I brand myself as the geek girl. I’m very passionate about geek culture. If you have any questions about Marvel or Star Wars, I’m your girl.

John: Right. That’s awesome.

Emma: Yeah. It’s been a huge, I think, just relationship-building tool, having that site and being able to say — because everyone geeks out over something. Whether it’s Star Wars or cooking or travel or whatever it is, there’s something that every single person on this planet is a geek about. It’s this one kind of beautiful thing that can bring people together.

John: It’s so true. Yeah, it’s all under one umbrella. It’s like, well, what do you geek out on? That’s basically what What’s Your “And”? is, is what do you geek out on?

Emma: Exactly.

John: For different people, it’s different things, but when they talk about that thing, they just light up. Their eyes get big. The tone in their voice is different. You can’t shut them up. It’s just non — and so it’s cool to have that energy between you and a client. It’s cool to have that energy in the office. If someone works in that kind of a setting, then why not have that energy and that kind of tone to that relationship? You’re around them a lot of times, a lot of hours.

Emma: Exactly.

John: I love that. Yeah. Maybe this is the geek out podcast now.

Emma: There you go.

John: What do you geek out on? That’s my second book. No. One’s enough. One’s enough. I guess one thing that, just to circle back on quickly, was you said how it just creates a better relationship with your clients. I guess, just, in what way? Just for people that are out there that are like, that’s way too off the reservation for me. I only talk about work and no work. Maybe if you could describe, rather than me telling them, it’s better in your words of, how does that relationship different or benefit from knowing?

Emma: It’s hard to describe. I definitely think has made the — when a client is trying to decide what web designer they’re going to go with or what agency they want to go with, they see me in a different light. I’m able to use that to separate me from the others. I’m not this corporate buttoned up girl. I’m wearing jeans and a Marvel t-shirt, and I’m going to knock out your website and have fun doing it. I love what I do. I think showing people how passionate I get about geek culture, and technology is a huge part of that. I love building things. I love designing things. Seeing that passion in me for what I do, I think just puts me in a different context in their mind. I think that’s one of the big ways that it sets it apart.

I also like to know that too, just about my clients, because I feel like that personal connection, knowing what makes someone tick, it’s going the extra mile to get to know someone and meet someone where they are and not just, I’m here to do a job, let me get it done. Yes, I’m going to do the job, but I also want to know who you are as a person, what makes you tick, and how does that influence your business and what you do?

John: Yeah, and you could do it much better because you actually — they come to you asking for something, and you’re like, well, what if this? Because after getting to know you, this is a huge part of who you are as a person or who your business is, you’re completely leaving this off the page. What if we did that? They see it. What? That’s awesome. So, you’re able to provide better service.

Emma: Absolutely. I think every business or every service provider out there is looking for ways to set themselves apart from their competition. By celebrating what makes you different and shining a light on that, I think is a really great way to do it.

John: Totally. It’s your differentiator. Why would you not put that top of the page? It’s so funny. We want to hide the one thing that differentiates us. Let’s maybe not even put it on the resume, or let’s not even put it on the website. Let’s not even put it on the About Us page or at the very bottom in super small font. It’s, no, no. That’s the only thing that makes you different. Everyone else is doing the exact same —

Emma: Exactly.

John: So, that’s super cool that you lean into that, and that you encourage your clients to, as well. Because it creates that safe space where, hey, Emma just showed up in that Marvel t-shirt. I’ve got one. I’m going to wear it to the next meeting, type of thing. All of a sudden, now we get real people showing up to meetings instead of automatons.

Emma: Exactly, exactly.

John: How much do you feel like, for an organization, and maybe ones that you’ve dealt with because in your case, it’s different, but how much is it on the organization to create that culture where it’s okay for people to share their “and”? Versus, how much is it on the individual to maybe just create that little small circle or be the change that they want to see in the world type of thing?

Emma: I think it’s up to both parties. I think that a company needs to create a safe space in which employees feel comfortable doing that and expressing themselves and celebrating what makes them them, but individuals also need to feel comfortable in doing that as well and putting that out there, putting themselves out there and trying to build those relationships and celebrate what makes everyone different, but also celebrate things that we have in common.

That was really, when I first started FanBolt, obviously, as I said earlier, it was to celebrate fandom, but I also had a very quintessential high school experience where I was bullied. I didn’t have a safe space to celebrate what I loved because I was made fun of for it. So, in starting FanBolt, it was such a passion of mine to create a safe haven where people could come and celebrate the things they love or the things that they didn’t have anyone else to celebrate with.

That’s the really amazing thing about geek culture. You can be 70 or seven. You can be any nationality, any gender. It doesn’t matter who you are, what you look like. We can all be a fan of the same thing. Star Wars fans look like everyone. Right?

John: Right. Right.

Emma: Disney fans look like everyone. Every single show or movie or piece of media property has a fandom behind it. You get to see different types of people come together, forget their differences and celebrate something they love and still be different. It’s such an interesting concept to me, and I love it. That’s what I love so much about fandom is the safe space that it creates for people to celebrate who they are.

John: I love that so much. On a slightly shallower level is what I feel like the What’s Your “And”? concept is, is professionals are, maybe bullied is too strong of a word for it, but they’re gently persuaded to behave a certain way and act a certain way. If you even have a hobby or an interest outside of work, I don’t know what you do, but even if you have it, don’t talk about it, that sort of mentality. So, creating that community where it’s like, no, no, this is normal. You’re not the only one. There’s all of us out here. I love the power behind that. That’s so cool to hear, what you’ve been able to do on a much, much bigger level, which is really cool.

Emma: Thank you.

John: Yeah. No, that’s awesome. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe feels like, I’ve got a hobby, or I’ve got a thing that I geek out on that no one’s going to care about, or it has nothing to do with my job?

Emma: I’d celebrate it. Celebrate what fuels you. At the end of the day, we don’t live to work. We work to live. We want to be able to celebrate the things that make us happy. It’s amazing when you can tie those things together. You truly love your work. That’s fantastic, but your hobbies are something that brings such joy to you. You shouldn’t put them on the back burner. You shouldn’t put them last. They need to be a priority to you because that’s what fuels you and motivates you to keep going and be happy. There’s enough sadness in the world already. Be happy. Do what makes you happy.

John: Right? Totally, and that energy you can then bring to work. Unfortunately, one doesn’t always pay the mortgage where the job does, but that enthusiasm and fuel, as you use the word for, is bring that fuel to work and have that joy there. I love that. That’s super awesome.

Well, before I wrap this up, it’s only fair, since I rapid-fire questioned you right out of the gate, that we turn the tables. This is the first episode of the Emma Loggins podcast. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate you booking me. Actually, I booked myself but anyway, I’m all yours.

Emma: Let’s see. Let’s start with favorite movie.

John: Favorite movie. All right, I’ve got a couple. There’s going to be Rudy because Notre Dame football. That’s what I geek out on. Dumb and Dumber is always good, no matter. You can start the movie at any point, and there’s going to be laughter. Probably Good Will Hunting is a really good one too. So, probably those three.

Emma: On that note, Ben Affleck or Matt Damon?

John: Oh, you know in that movie, I love Ben Affleck’s character so much. When he goes into the meeting with his white tube socks, and he’s negotiating this contract with — he’s just like, that’s not good enough. We’re out of here, whatever. It’s so funny to me. That movie is just, it’s so deep, and the characters in it are really rich. Robin Williams’ character, man, it just… It’s a good movie.

Emma: It is. It is. Favorite superhero.

John: Favorite superhero. Well, I don’t know. Iron Man’s always cool. I don’t know if that counts.

Emma: That counts. He’s a superhero.

John: That’s a good one. I’m also a big fan of Spider-Man who’s super — if you ran into Peter Parker on the street, there’s no way that dude’s a superhero. It’s always at night, and he’s not getting all the attention. It’s just like, I just do what I do. No one’s needs to know about it. Superman always is seen. No one sees Spider-Man. It’s just all in in the night. So, those two, I would say.

Emma: Spider-Man is a great choice, but Iron Man is just really cool. You could have so much fun playing with all the technology that he has.

John: Yeah, exactly. That’s the part of it. Spider-Man with the technology, I would be in heaven right there.

Emma: I know you said earlier that you are a Star Wars guy, not a Star Trek guy, so, favorite Star Wars character.

John: Favorite Star Wars character. When I was younger, the Ewoks were like the bomb, just the bomb. They were hilarious, but they could kick ass at the same time. That was always fun. Yeah, I don’t know. I guess I’ll go Ewoks just because it’s such a random answer.

Emma: The Ewok’s a good answer.

John: Also, I’m just really big fan of the original three. I have yet to venture off the reservation much because I haven’t heard great things, necessarily, so I don’t want to ruin it. Yeah, that’s why I’m still on the old school original.

Emma: I will say that The Mandalorian is fantastic.

John: Oh, yeah, that’s the new show. Disney Plus, right?

Emma: Yeah, yeah. It’s not just because of baby Yoda, but baby Yoda is a huge part of it.

John: Right.

Emma: But it’s really well-constructed. They did such a fantastic job with the story arc, and now that Disney owns it, it’s really cool to see how everything is coming together from all of their different properties, from Clone Wars, the original films, Mandalorian, all of these things, how they fit together in this giant Star Wars universe. I geek out over it. It’s really cool.

John: That’s awesome. No, that’s cool. Finally, someone’s bringing it together.

Emma: Yes. Disney owns all of us, but it’s cool to see what they’re doing.

John: Right. Exactly, exactly. Do something with this. This has been so much fun, Emma. I really appreciate you being a part of What’s Your “And”? Congrats on all your success and, yeah, I just look forward to staying in touch. Thanks for being a part of this.

Emma: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me.

John: Totally. Everyone, if you want to see some pictures of Emma or connect with her on social media or get the link to FanBolt.com, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 380 of What’s Your “And”? Follow-Up Friday Edition. This is John Garrett, and each Friday, I follow up with a guest who had been on the show a few years ago to hear what’s new with their passions outside of work and also hear how this message might have impacted them since we last talked.

I’m so excited. My book is out. You can order it on Amazon, Indigo, barnesandnoble.com, a few other websites, so check out whatsyourand.com for more. Thank you so much to everyone who’s read it so far and been kind enough to leave those Amazon reviews. It’s been just really overwhelming to read. For those of you that have been asking, the audio version is coming out in just a few weeks, so I’ll read it to you if that’s really what you want.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this Follow-Up Friday is no different with my guest, Dennis Sherrin. He’s the CEO and strategic consultant for Avizo Group Inc. in Fairhope, Alabama, and now he’s with me here today. Dennis, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Dennis: John, it’s great to be back.

John: Exactly, man. I’m excited. You had a sabbatical in between.

Dennis: Yeah.

John: We could chat about that. I’m excited.

Dennis: That’s right.

John: Alabama won another national championship in between.

Dennis: Sorry about that semifinal game for you.

John: Hey, that’s all right. It’s all right. We were there. Notre Dame was there. I’m pretty sure that they lost by less than Ohio State did, so I’ll take second place. That works.

Dennis: There you go. I like that. I like that. That’s good.

John: Right? No one else believes what I have to think but whatever. I have rapid-fire questions for you.

Dennis: All right.

John: Get to know Dennis. If you had to choose, Harry Potter or Game of Thrones.

Dennis: Harry Potter.

John: Okay, there you go. How about a favorite TV show of all time?

Dennis: All-time favorite TV show. Oh, my gosh, John, there are too many. I’m going to go with MASH because it’s the first one I remember.

John: MASH, that’s a classic. That’s such a great show. This is a good one, hamburger or pizza.

Dennis: Hamburger. Hamburger, baby, absolutely.

John: Hamburger.

Dennis: Yes, got to be a quality hamburger. We’re not talking fast food.

John: No, no, we’re talking good hamburger or good pizza.

Dennis: That’s right.

John: Yeah, yeah.

Dennis: Absolutely.

John: Absolutely. Here’s a tricky one, a shower or a bath.

Dennis: Shower, no question. I don’t want to sit in the water that I just bathe with.

John: Right. You know what? That’s a good point. There is now a wrong answer to that one. When it comes to books, real books, Kindle version or audio version?

Dennis: I like a real book because I like to underline things.

John: Oh, okay.

Dennis: I underlined a lot in your book, John, just so you know.

John: Oh. Well, thank you. Thank you so much, man. I appreciate that. That’s awesome. Two more. How about your first concert?

Dennis: STYX at the Mobile Civic Center.

John: Yes. That’s awesome.

Dennis: The opening act was a band called Wet Willie from Mobile, Alabama.

John: Oh, very cool.

Dennis: Yeah. They had a hit song once, too.

John: Right? There you go, Wet Willie. The last one, toilet paper, is it over or under?

Dennis: Oh, man, come on. You’re still bringing this one? It’s over.

John: It’s over. All right. I’m just making sure. Every once in a while, there’s a cat person that tries to justify their craziness.

Dennis: Okay, so one of our offices tends to have it under. I’m going to have to have a little intervention with them one day and fix them.

John: Exactly. It’s like, who keeps switching this back to over? The only time Dennis visits, that’s why. Good for you, man. Good for you. Yeah, Episode 177, that was several years ago. We talked hiking. There’s a Grand Canyon adventure in there, all kinds of trips like that. Is that still something that you’ve been able to do?

Dennis: Actually, yes, believe it or not. You mentioned earlier, I took a sabbatical. Part of that, my wife and I, literally, John — so, my sabbatical was from August 1st to November 30th of 2019. On August 1st, we were literally on the road to New Mexico to spend a week in northern New Mexico at Philmont Scout Ranch and do a whole bunch of back country stuffs. We hiked, such as that, did the same thing in the Smoky Mountains later in the sabbatical, and just had a great time doing that.

Just to finish the sabbatical story, the end of the sabbatical, it was like, hey, Amy, the Eagles are playing in Las Vegas in September. She’s like, “Get the tickets.” We literally, it was like a month before we were able to pull off getting tickets, flew to Vegas and saw them perform the whole album of Hotel California in the first set.

John: Wow.

Dennis: Then they came back, and they pretty much played everything else for the next two and a half hours.

John: Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

Dennis: These 70-year-old dudes were just killing it up there on the stage. It was fun. That was the finishing part of the sabbatical, and there is that. Other than that, yeah, man, just stayed busy with a lot of different stuff. There was some travel, got involved with the Alabama Society of CPAs, so.

John: Oh, yeah.

Dennis: I was their board chair and past chair and such as that. Still involved because I found out that it’s really neat to have a role like that where you can influence your profession a little more and try to help your profession. With all due respect to my profession, it moves a little slower than it needs to right now.

John: Right.

Dennis: I still call that an adventure because it is an adventure to spend time and do that and continue to serve on that group.

John: That’s awesome.

Dennis: Fun stuff to me.

John: Yeah, yeah, there’s a lot of the accounting professions, fixing to get ready to, right?

Dennis: We’re researching that. Okay, I got to give you a deadline. We can’t research it any more after this day. You’ve got to make a choice.

John: Right.

Dennis: We have a bunch of amazing people, as you’ve shown by these shows you have, John. I just want to be able to find those amazing people and get us all helping the rest move in the direction so that, as we go into the future, I’ll be retired at that point probably, but we have a lot of good things that this profession still does for businesses and communities as a whole. That’s become something of a passion for me, doing all that kind of stuff, but, yeah, pretty cool stuff.

John: Yeah. Was there one of the hikes that you did in that sabbatical that was maybe your favorite, or a part of it that was like, wow, this is incredible.

Dennis: I can think of two hikes that I’ve done since we last talked that were pretty neat. One was during the sabbatical back in August when we were at Philmont Scout Ranch, place called Lover’s Leap. I didn’t leap. I’m here, so obviously, I didn’t leap. It was about a 12-mile round-trip hike, and it’s led by a Ranger. It was the first really big hike where my wife had significant elevation gain. Philmont starts out, we were at about 7,000 feet above sea level before we started that day, and we got up to a little over 9,000.

When you get up there and you can see this whole valley, because the Scout Ranch sits at the very, really the southern end of the Rockies, so you can look out. There’s the plains of the southern part of New Mexico stretching forever. Just this incredible view and it was a crystal clear day and beautiful weather. Temperatures were real nice. It was August, but we were up there pretty hot. It was still —

John: And it’s a desert, so it’s not humid.

Dennis: Yeah, not humid. Fantastic. Then there was a hike that we actually did last October, John. We got stir crazy since we got to go somewhere. I asked my wife. I said, “We’ve got a choice. We can go to California, go to Yosemite. We could go to the Florida Keys and hangout. We could go to Utah and go to Zion and Bryce and things like that.” She says, “I want to go to Utah.” I said, “All right, we’re going.” We did. We went to both Zion and Bryce.

In Zion, I scheduled a hike up to Angel’s Landing, which is a strenuous hike to get there and then that last little bit, was tough. We’d take off on that hike and do it. She just crushed it. When we got back down, I said, “By the way, that was the most strenuous hike that you can have in the canyon here. You did really good.”

We sat up there on top, and you look in the valley. The cars do look like ants. Again, it was just another day. There was a lot of people up there on scouts landing with us, but it seemed like there was nobody just because everybody was quiet and peaceful. They were just soaking it in. The peak of both of those hikes really still stick with me to this day. It was really cool, man.

John: That’s super cool. Yeah, that’s awesome, and to do it with your wife and for her to go all the way to the top as well because you didn’t tell her beforehand how hard it was so then you tell her after.

Dennis: I survived. She’s like, okay. She’s a pretty good hiker. She just sometimes — we all worry about it at some point. I can remember doing it myself, carrying a backpack and like, what am I doing here? It was really good, memorable hikes.

John: That’s really cool. Do you feel that people are sharing these hobbies and passions more, and just professionals, in general, are being more well-rounded or at least exposing themselves to others, showing them that, hey, I’ve got these other sides to me?

Dennis: Yeah. It’s funny. I remember when we did the show before. For me, I like to talk a little bit about the things that I always did. Obviously, I believe that I do it more now, but I also see around our office, I hear our team talking about more. Being a part of Alabama Society of CPAs, we have a large Board of Directors. There are individuals on that board that I know a lot about what they do. We’ve got a spelunker, John.

John: Wow.

Dennis: We have a spelunker.

John: Yeah, we need to get that person lined up.

Dennis: Exactly.

John: That’s so awesome. That’s cool.

Dennis: Yes, exactly. It’s been really fun to be more aware of when other people are talking about their activity. I think, for me, the benefit of hearing your show and participating in it is I’ve become more aware of what others are saying a lot of times, where I may not have done as good a job of that in the past, even with our clients.

Sometimes going out visiting — I usually just get allowed to visit clients these days. I don’t get to necessarily do work with them. It’s actually the fun part. I just sit down and have conversations. It’s really crazy the conversations you have, the good conversations you have when you just start sharing a story about or showing them a picture of sitting up on top of this mountain or sitting in front of this waterfall with one of my sons or something like that.

John: Yeah.

Dennis: Just strike up a conversation out of that is, that’s really more noticeable than I really ever thought it would be, and it’s really cool to take that approach to how I think of every relationship now, if you will.

John: Yeah. No, that means a lot because it’s one of those things where it’s — I was speaking in the fall on a virtual conference, and somebody in the chat was like, isn’t this intuitive? Yes, but you’re not doing it. I’m not showing up as some rocket science genius person. I’m just friendly reminder. People around you have these other dimensions. Ask about them and find out about them. So, that’s cool to hear.

Dennis: Yeah.

John: It’s something that’s simple, but then it’s a richer conversation. It’s a deeper relationship. The spelunker, who cares what their job is, right? You didn’t say, “Hey, we’ve got an auditor, John.”

Dennis: What would pique your interest there? Come on.

John: Right. You’ll never believe it, government audits. He’s amazing.

Dennis: Yeah.

John: Right?

Dennis: I really like that. Yeah.

John: No, that’s cool, man. That’s really cool to hear. Have you seen whether it’s there at Avizo or clients or other firms that are doing things to help people to share those interests?

Dennis: Yes. I think from Avizo, for the perspective, is we’ve been more remote than we have been in the past. We’ve had to focus more on using video and having communications. We’ve had more all-firm kind of conversations and meetings than in the past, and we always seem to try to start those off with just, I’ll call it banter, back and forth. Somebody starts picking on somebody, but we start finding out what’s going on. Or you start looking in their background, like yours. You start asking questions, and you start hearing a story about what’s going on. Or you do see the cat jump up on the keyboard there. Oh, yeah, look at that. How many cats do you have? 26. Wow, that’s a lot of cats.

John: That’s a lot. That’s a lot.

Dennis: Those kind of just normal functions that have kind of moved. Instead of trying to force something that really makes this happen, just letting the normal activities we had somehow creating those further conversations about the personal side of people in a normal conversation is something that I’ve seen a lot of, and that’s good. So, from our perspective, I think that’s something that I’ve seen. I’ve also seen it with a few of our bigger clients that I usually go out and visit.

John, you may know… I don’t know. I don’t know if it was big national news. We had a hurricane down here.

John: Right? Yeah. Yeah, you did.

Dennis: Anyway, after that, I got to visit some of our clients that are on the coast. They’re all doing well, but they had a lot of challenges. Having conversations about just personal experiences, we ended up laughing about a lot of things even though that was a tough time, because we just found a way to make the conversations and find the humor in the day to day things. That’s so much more fun than talking about, this is going to be casualty loss. We need from the tax perspective to use coded section whatever. I don’t know code sections.

John: Right. Before you fix your roof, can we get the files so we can get this reported?

Dennis: Yeah.

John: It’s like, no.

Dennis: They know we are going to be there to guide them and help them with those things, so us making conversation about other things that are pleasing and of interest is, it’s fun. It really is fun.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah, and it’s truly being a trusted adviser because there’s actually genuine trust, even brain science trust there where you’ve been a little bit vulnerable, and you open yourself up to have real conversations. Yeah, that’s really rewarding, man. That’s cool to hear. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening who maybe thinks that they have a hobby or passion that has nothing to do with their job, and no one’s going to care about it?

Dennis: Thinking out loud here. If you like who you are, share it with somebody because somebody else is going to like it, and encourage them to do the same. I think that’s what I would say. I think we all like who we are, in some way, shape or form. How can we let people know a little bit more about who we are, and then open that opportunity for them as well?

John: I love that. It’s so great. If you like you, then why wouldn’t someone else? If they don’t, that’s on them.

Dennis: Right. Yeah. Yeah, it’s on them.

John: That’s your problem. Right. That’s your problem. That’s awesome. Very cool. Well, this has been so much fun, Dennis. I feel like it’s only fair that before I wrap this up, that I turn the tables and very nervously hand over the mic to the first episode of The Dennis Sherrin podcast, everybody.

Dennis: Well, thank you.

John: Thanks for having me on.

Dennis: Thank you, John. I brought a special guest, a famous football coach.

John: Okay.

Dennis: Just get in here. All right. Okay, John, I’ve I got three questions I’ll give you here. Number one, if you had the power, which would you choose, to be invisible or read minds?

John: Oh, wow. I’m kind of scared to know what people are thinking because I feel like, especially in the last year, we’ve seen it all on social media.

Dennis: Exactly.

John: I’ll just be invisible so that I don’t have to — you won’t see me, and I don’t have to know what you’re thinking because I probably already do know. I’ll be invisible, just lesser of two evils, I guess.

Dennis: I’m with you. Absolutely. All right, number two, favorite song.

John: Favorite song. Wow, that’s a great question. Oh, man, there are so many that come to mind right now. A song that I could just listen to over and over and over, like a Killers’ Mr. Brightside or Blink-182, just almost any of those songs.

Dennis: Nice. Yeah. Yeah.

John: Or even like a Metallica one is such a great deep, rich song. I guess that. There’s also Mozart’s concerto and — no, I’m just kidding. Notre Dame Victory March, that would be high on the list, probably high on my list.

Dennis: Yeah. I sort of wondered if that one would come up. All right, final question. I like Joes, so I thought this would be good. Joe Theismann or Joe Montana.

John: Oh, look at you catering to my…

Dennis: That’s right.

John: You’re awfully kind. You’re awfully kind. Yeah, I’m going to go Joe Montana on that one, I think, yeah, just one of my things.

Dennis: I would say he was the greatest quarterback of all time, but I think Brady finally eclipsed him.

John: I know. It is tough.

Dennis: Yeah.

John: It’s tough to swallow that it’s Tom Brady, but, man, he is so good. He’s just, yeah, he’s just good. It’s hard to go against that.

Dennis: Yeah, we’ll just leave it at that.

John: Right. Exactly, exactly. Dennis, thank you so much, man, for being a part of this and also just living this out and reading the book, being a part of the book launch team. It meant so much. I really appreciate it.

Dennis: Pleasure, John. Good to talk to you, as always.

John: Awesome. Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Dennis from his adventures or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 379 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiates you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. It just came out.

The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and now listening to it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. Thank you so much for that.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes because I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, James Perry.

After spending years in public accounting and then as a controller, he’s now the founder of Accounting Success Coach, helping both accounting students with study and exam techniques, and seasoned finance professionals with mindset and motivation. Based in Downpatrick, Northern Ireland and now he’s with me here today; James, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

James: Great to be with you, John. Absolute pleasure.

John: This is going to be awesome and so much fun but first, 17 rapid fire questions, get to know James out of the gate. Here we go. First one, here’s an easy one, favorite color.

James: Green.

John: Green. Nice. Very Irish of you, I like that.

James: Absolutely. Not stereotypical at all.

John: Right. How about a least favorite color?

James: White.

John: White. I feel like there’s a soccer representation happening here.

James: That was very quite coincidental.

John: I see what’s happening. Here we go, favorite adult beverage.

James: Oh, I’ll say whiskey.

John: Okay. All right.

James: Because that’s created in Ireland.

John: Yeah, yeah. I was like, it’s either that or Guinness. It’s got to be one of —

James: The Irish for whiskey is called uisce beatha, and it means the water of life.

John: Oh, nice. Very good. That’s actually very true. That’s awesome. Andrew Van De Beek in Australia, who has also been on the podcast, would agree with you, 100%. How about a favorite actor or actress?

James: I’ll say Liam Neeson.

John: Oh, okay.

James: There’s a theme here.

John: There is a theme here. I love this. This is awesome. I’m trying to figure out my questions, if I can keep throwing you softballs here. Yeah, I can’t. How about puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

James: Crossword.

John: Crossword, okay. Yeah, I thought they were invented in Ireland so then I was trying to — no, I’m just kidding.

James: Sudoku that’s a very Irish word that.

John: Right. Oh, here’s a good one, talk or text.

James: Oh, talk, definitely.

John: Yeah. I agree. I agree. There’s a time for texting, but talking is definitely a lot better. Would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

James: Definitely night owl.

John: There you go. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

James: Star Wars. I wouldn’t really be a fan of either, but Star Wars I know more of. Also it was filmed in Ireland.

John: I didn’t know that. Really? That’s amazing.

James: What it was, I don’t know which one, but Luke Skywalker walks out of this crazy rocky area.

John: Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay, very cool. All right, your computer, more of a PC or a Mac.

James: PC.

John: PC. Yeah, me too. Me too. How about a favorite ice cream flavor? I love ice cream.

James: Honeycomb ice cream.

John: Oh, nice.

James: Honeycomb is lovely, or mint, followed up by mint.

John: Right. Sure. Okay. Yeah, honeycomb, that’s a good answer. That’s different. Don’t get that all the time. Oh, here’s one, summer, winter, spring or fall. You have four seasons in Ireland, right?

James: They sort of merge into one but in general, spring because the flowers are starting to come up and the trees are starting to go into leaf. I love that. I love spring.

John: Yeah, yeah, very pretty. Very pretty. How about balance sheet or income statement?

James: Oh, God. Balance sheet because that’s where the cash reserves live.

John: That’s where cash reserve — there you go. All right. That’s awesome. That’s funny. All right, we got five more, five more. Chocolate or vanilla.

James: Oh, chocolate, without a doubt. I can give you another crazy, crazy Irish fact.

John: Sure.

James: The guy who invented, sort of invented chocolate and gave it to Cadbury in England was literally born about 10 miles away from where I come from.

John: Oh, wow. That guy’s my hero.

James: A guy called Hans Sloane, who also started the British Museum.

John: Wow, I need to get to work. He’s an overachiever.

James: Absolutely.

John: My hero. How about socks or shoes?

James: Socks because I don’t run about in my bare feet.

John: Right? Yeah.

James: I can wear socks around the house very, very easily with not even worrying about shoes. Or I could say slippers. That’s the best of both worlds.

John: It is. They’re socks shoes. That’s fantastic. I love that. Favorite number.

James: For some reason, I’d say eight.

John: Okay. Is there a reason why or you just — because it’s very balanced? It looks pretty. It’s very symmetrical.

James: Yeah, it’s like an hourglass shape. There you go. You can pick from that, whatever you want.

John: There you go. Right, everyone’s breaking you down right now. Oh, you just said hourglass. Oh, man, not that again. When it comes to books, Kindle, real book or the audio version.

James: Real book.

John: Real book.

James: Well, I’m going to caveat that. Sometimes I’d buy the Audible.

John: Yeah, I’ve heard a lot of people saying that, which is why I went and recorded mine. Just more of my voice though, so here we go, everybody.

James: I like my books as well. If it’s a reference book or a business book, I will highlight.

John: Yeah, yeah. Then you can go back for the good parts. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

James: Oh, God, this is going to be controversial because I shouldn’t have that, a sliver of The Great Pyramid.

John: Oh, wow. Okay. All right. Well, I mean, it’s in quotes, The Great Pyramid.

James: It happened to be flaking off.

John: Right. That’s amazing.

James: I’m looking at it right now.

John: That’s pretty awesome, and I don’t blame you one bit, which bleeds perfectly into your “and” of — so, when was this trip and have you been many times or…

James: Oh, to Egypt?

John: Yeah.

James: Been twice.

John: Okay.

James: Once was primarily based around Cairo, which must have been about 10 years ago, and then I’ve done a full tour of the country in 2018.

John: Oh, wow.

James: Which was just absolutely incredible.

John: That’s awesome.

James: Yeah, so I’d done Cairo again for about two days. Then we took a nine-hour train ride down to the southern part of Egypt. Then we sailed back up the Nile.

John: Oh, wow, that sounds awesome.

James: It was incredible and visited all the, I think it was 12 sites, I want to say, John. 11 of them was on the itinerary, and I managed to get the tour guide to get me alone to the 12th one, which was way off the beaten track. So, I’d seen everything that I wanted to see, all based obviously, on Ancient Egypt, so it’s unbelievable.

John: That is really awesome. We’ll get into that but first, how did you get so fascinated with Egypt? Is it since you were a kid? I remember when I was a kid, reading about Tutankhamen and the pharaoh masks. It was always cool to me, but I never went so I need to.

James: Whenever I was young, I suppose, John, what happened was that most people wanted to go and play the Nintendo. I wanted to go and see the wonders of the world. How mad is that, whenever you’re young? Normal people wanted to play the computer. I didn’t.

John: No, but I love it, man. I think that’s great.

James: To be honest with you, the first time I’d seen The Great Pyramid on TV, I couldn’t believe it. I literally couldn’t believe it, yet it’s not my — I want to contradict myself. So, from seeing it, I believe it’s the greatest structure in the world, bar none.

John: Yeah.

James: But it’s not my favorite thing in Egypt.

John: Oh, okay.

James: Believe it or not. So, yes, it started very early on. I wanted to go and see the likes of Machu Picchu, Petra, the Taj Mahal, but then I got especially fascinated with Egypt.

John: So what is your favorite thing in Egypt then if it’s not the Great Pyramid?

James: Okay, so, over time, whenever I got really interested in Egypt, I got very interested in Ramesses II, the greatest Pharaoh of them all. If some dude can be a megalomaniac, if he can rule until he was 97, for 70 years, 4000 years ago, and have 120 children, he’s a bit of a hero in my eyes.

John: Right. I don’t blame you, man. I don’t blame you.

James: His temple where he’d actually declared himself divine, it basically went, I am God. It’s in a temple called Abu Simbel, which is in the southern part of Egypt, and these massive, mammoth statues carved in the side of a mountain. It’s literally breathtaking. The other reason why it was, it was on this stretch of the Nile that split Egypt at Nubia. The Nubians could basically sail up and see this massive thing. It was saying, right, lads, guess who’s the daddy here?

John: Yeah, yeah, that’s well played.

James: It’s absolutely phenomenal. I was able to look it squarely in the face and go inside. Also it’s lined up with the sunrise as well. Incredible building.

John: Well, it is incredible how so far advanced they were, for being so long ago.

James: Oh, it’s unbelievable, like The Great Pyramid, and I’m reading a book about some of the conspiracy theories around the Nile. The coordinates of The Great Pyramid, if you were to take away, I could be wrong here, but I’m going to say the general gist, if you were to take degrees north and degrees south, et cetera, out of it, and line up the numbers, that’s the exact number of the speed of light.

John: Holy moly.

James: Yep.

John: That’s not an accident.

James: I think it’s like a quarter of an inch off a perfect square. How the hell did they do that?

John: Right. You can’t even do that today with computers.

James: I think they would struggle.

John: I’ve seen pictures, but is it just so big that —

James: Well, the blocks at the bottom are up to my shoulder, and the lightest block is something like 15 tons.

John: Yeah, that’s amazing.

James: Up until the Eiffel Tower was built, it was the tallest building in the world for 4,000 years.

John: Man, that is tall because I’ve seen the Eiffel Tower. It’s like, all right.

James: Yeah, I’ve been to the top of the Eiffel Tower.

John: Yeah, yeah.

James: Unfortunately, it was February time, and the person I was with was probably under pressure.

John: Oh, man. Yeah, that’s cold. No, but that’s impressive, man. That’s really cool. It just expands your horizon, your thinking, all that stuff.

James: Oh, it’s incredible, John, incredible. In Luxor, there’s a temple called Karnak Temple, and it is still the biggest religious complex in the world, still.

John: Man, that’s amazing.

James: Its acreage is just huge. It’s much bigger than the Vatican.

John: Wow, which is saying something. That’s nuts. So then that trip up the Nile, that’s just reliving thousands of years of history. That had to be pretty cool to witness and just be a part of.

James: Another really cool fact as well was on one stretch of the Nile, we were passed actually by a steamboat, and the steamboat was King Nasser’s former boat.

John: Holy cow. What?

James: Yeah,

John: That’s amazing.

James: The trip was phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal.

John: That’s really cool. That’s really cool, just to see all that stuff, plus the food and the culture and just everything else about it.

James: It’s craziness. It’s craziness. To put it into some context, the population of Cairo is, I think, about 23 to 24 million people, right? The population of Ireland, the entire island is 6 million people.

John: Right. Yeah, for you, it’s like, wait, what?

James: If you had the Irish quarter in Cairo, you can stick the whole country into it.

John: Right, and four times. It’s like, what?

James: Also the craziness as well, John, the craziness of Cairo. If you drive there, you’re kicking your life into your hands.

John: Yeah. Right, right. It’s like, there are lines on the street, kind of, but just go. The roundabouts in Africa are hilarious, where it’s like, elbows up and just go. Just go because you can wait forever waiting for someone to let you in. It’s like, nope, you just got to go.

James: One thing was, and I think I put it up on my social media a way back, was someone filmed me crossing the road, and I went, the hell with this, right? Typical mad Irish man fashion, I decided to cross the road by myself. Somebody filmed me. At the very end, I’d done a victory sign. Yeah, like this, at the very, very end. I was so proud of myself.

John: That’s hilarious, almost like Frogger back in the days.

James: Yeah, but this is Frogger on steroids.

John: Yeah, and real life, there’s no try again, after. That’s so cool, man, so cool. Do you feel like being infatuated with that or some of the travel at all, gives you a skill set that you brought to work at all, or bring to work now?

James: Believe it or not, I think it was all the way around, John. I think my experiences and work enabled me to go and travel. I’m very much about achievement. The Eight Wonders of the World, which is the Seven Modern and the original Ancient, of those eight, I’ve seen six.

John: Oh, nice.

James: If it wasn’t for COVID, I would have done that Eight. I will do the Eight whenever the time is right. I don’t know if anybody else that I know of, that has seen the Eight Wonders of the World.

John: If they’ve seen one, it was kind of on accident. It was like, oh, I guess there’s the Taj Mahal. They probably didn’t even know it, that they were part of the Eight. It’s like, oh, there’s some pyramid.

James: That’s what drives me. In terms of going through the profession of even exams, the discipline of doing that and taking personal responsibility and all these sort of other things that we don’t realize that the profession actually gives you, you can use it. Also obviously the financial aspect, you can go and do these trips. People laugh at me, where my average holiday costs £ 2,500.

John: Yeah, right.

James: No, I make absolutely no apology over that because travel, I think, is the most precious thing that I can spend money on.

John: Yeah, that’s your priorities, which is awesome. I think that’s really cool how it’s almost the inverse of…

James: Yeah, the discipline and that sort of thing, absolutely.

John: No, totally. Also, you’re admiring the achievement of what they did as well, back in the day —

James: Oh, yeah.

John: — of building these things and the precision and the skills that it took to do that. It’s really no different than what you’re doing now.

James: Just to top it off, in Cairo, you’ve got the greatest building in the world, my opinion, the greatest building ever built, The Great Pyramid. Literally two to 300 yards away is the greatest statue ever built or ever carved, which is the Sphinx. If you look at the Sphinx, it is mesmerizing. That is not a stereotype. It is mesmerizing. You can still see the paint on its forehead.

John: That’s amazing.

James: It’s unbelievable, and the size and the scale. I’ve got a photograph where you’ve got me, the Sphinx and The Great Pyramid all lined up. You’re going, that is just immense.

John: Right? There’s now a Ninth Wonder of the World, James Perry.

James: Absolutely. I’m doing my best in lockdown to match its size.

John: Right. That’s hilarious.

James: Believe it or not.

John: You just lay down and then it’s like, hey, look at that mound.

James: Absolutely. Do you know whenever Homer Simpson — Homer Simpson lay on the couch or something one day and people fed him doughnuts in this conveyor belt? Imagine me in lockdown.

John: Yeah, that’s a dream right there. When you’re back for the Follow-Up Friday, it’ll be doughnuts we’ll talk about.

James: Absolutely.

John: It will be very good.

James: It will be good, absolutely.

John: Right? Yeah, so is this something that you’ve talked about with coworkers and clients, or something that you’ve shared, or it’s come up in conversation on occasion?

James: I tell every single client about this.

John: Oh, okay.

James: The first session that I do, whether it’s exam coaching, John, or my career coaching program, it is… My first question whenever I have an exam coaching client is, why the hell are you doing this shit for?

John: Right, right.

James: They look at you and go, what? I go, well, this is a hard road, between the study and the pressure of work. Then we go through the reasons why they’re doing this shit. Then we get onto, what do you want to achieve in your life? Then I’ll talk about my travels and say, “This is what my exams, this is what the profession has helped me get to.” That’s what I talk about. The same with the career development client, whenever they want to go maybe into senior management or whatever, I’m never having those conversations. I’d say, what are you doing this for?

You can get all this short-term motivational bullshit, but unless you know why you’re doing it or know those core drivers, which I understood for me, which I want to go and see the world, so I might as well get a good qualification and profession to help back that up, and that’s what happened. So, yes, every single client knows about my travels.

John: That’s so cool because it tightens so many people. Sometimes we’re hesitant to share that just because in our heads, we think, well, it doesn’t have to do directly with the work, so no one’s going to care or all the things that we tell ourselves in our head. I’m sure a lot of things that you help people with in the career coaching, of just what we tell ourselves that aren’t these lies. It’s amazing how our own brain can be our worst enemy.

James: Absolutely. I don’t do BS. I’m quite a straight talker. You very rarely — whenever I question people, they very rarely say money. Don’t get me wrong. Money is the byproduct to go and do the things, but 10 years ago, it could have been a different conversation, John, because I probably was very driven by money. I was determined to go for partnership within public accounting. There’s a couple of good old sayings here in Ireland. Of course, they’re always quite humorous. There’s no such thing as a tow bar on a hearse.

John: Oh, wow. You can’t take it with you.

James: The other one is, there’s no such thing as pockets in the shroud.

John: Oh.

James: So whenever we get down to brass tacks on what really means something to people, it’s human connection, or it’s achievement. Money facilitates things. You don’t want to hoard money in a bank. I have yet to know very many people who wants to go into a vault and count all their money.

John: Right?

James: It’s what that gets you, and I think that’s the important thing.

John: And the freedom and the ability to go do those things because it’s rarely, I can’t wait to go do more work. The reasons are rarely ever, yeah, I want to go through this so I can do more work. It’s, no, no, you want to do it so you have money to go do the passions you have outside of work. The sooner we all recognize those passions and that we have them, the better it is for everybody.

James: Absolutely.

John: Yeah, because I feel like for so long we’ve been acting like no one does anything, and we all love work because of work. It’s like, no, no, we love work because we get stuff to go do the cool stuff, type of thing.

James: Don’t get me wrong. I’m not going to be naive and say that money is not a concern. It obviously is, but I have never met a person yet or someone who will be on their deathbed and said, “You know something, I’m dying here, but I wish to spend more hours in the office.”

John: Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. Or I wish I’d saved more money. It’s like, no, you’re good. Yeah, yeah. No, that’s exactly true. Even when you worked in public accounting and stuff like that, did you find people — I know it was a little bit of a different time, but it wasn’t that long ago — that people shared outside-of-work hobbies and passions, or was it pretty much, get the work done?

James: It was so much get the work done, man. The concerns were chargeable hours. The concerns were budgets. The concerns were work in progress. The concerns were deadlines and getting that audit report signed and getting enough on the file. That’s what the concerns were, and that’s the pressures, I suppose, of public accounting. It didn’t really come to the fore for me until, I suppose, five years ago, five or six years ago, whenever, I suppose, I changed my philosophy on life with that. So, no, it was very much the culture, it was very much the stereotypical culture of the accounting profession where it was work, work, work, work, work.

John: Yeah, yeah.

James: That’s fine, until you know the ropes. That is fine. You have to do your apprenticeship, and you have to serve your time.

John: Sure, but I feel like the work’s going to happen, either way. You could, on occasion, share hobbies with each other or what actually lights you up, type of thing, because then it just makes work more enjoyable. You’re not talking about work all the time. There’s a little reprieve to light you up. Hey, so these pyramids, tell me about them. You’re just like…

James: I think social media and media, in general, and your phones are maybe much easier now with people. I didn’t have a smartphone until five years ago. I was one of the very late adopters. That was probably a bit of peer pressure, as well, so much so I’m going to try and sign off a couple of the platforms now and actually delete a number of the platforms. I think showing the photographs and going on social media and other things that facilitate maybe a bit of a more social look within work. I remember I started in 2003, 2004, 2005. That wasn’t as prevalent, I suppose.

John: Same for me except for I was about five years before that. Yeah, it was one of those where you didn’t even know if anybody had anything, so you just assume, well, I guess no one does because no one said it. I guess it doesn’t exist. It’s like, just because I haven’t seen the Pyramids with my own eyes, doesn’t mean they don’t exist, and the same with people’s hobbies and passions outside of work.

James: Absolutely.

John: Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe thinks, I’ve got this passion that no one’s going to care about or has nothing to do with my job?

James: Simply go and do it. I know that’s very stereotypical, go and do it. We’re in very unusual circumstances here with COVID, et cetera, but in normal circumstances, we have mostly all got the means to go and do what we want to do. We’ve got access online to things we want to go and do. I don’t think there’s that many excuses anymore, so, definitely do it. You know what I mean? Life is too short. There’s a good old book written by Mark Manson, which is, if I can remember what you call it, The Subtle Art of Not Giving an F.

John: Oh, right. Yeah, that just came out a couple of years ago.

James: The last chapter is about death. I’m going to be honest, folks. Read that chapter because it puts it into perspective. If you’ve got something you want to do, go and do it. Now is the time to do it. It’s not to save and, John, like my father’s day where he would say, “I wish I’d done this, and I wish I’d done that.” My dad was one of the very stereotypical Irish family, one of 15 of a family, who had to leave school at 14 to go automatically into work to bring money back to the household. My dad didn’t have too much. It’s only now he’s got a lot. So, relatively speaking, way more opportunities than ever before, so go and take them.

John: Yeah, I love that. That’s so awesome, man. Before we wrap this up, though, it’s only fair that I turn the tables, since I so rudely peppered you with questions. This is the first episode of the James Perry podcast. Thanks for having me on, James. I appreciate it.

James: Believe it or not, I had a podcast called James Perry Presents.

John: Oh, well, there we go. We’re rebooting it. Here it is. It’s a reboot.

James: Okay, what’s your favorite word, John?

John: Oh, my favorite word. That’s a good one. I think it’s related to this message, but there’s a word, eudaimonia.

James: That sounds a wee bit like diarrhea.

John: Right? It’s what happens when you read my book. You get eudaimonia. No, no. It’s actually an ancient Greek word. Aristotle wrote all about it. It’s the optimal state of human existence. It’s good soul or good self. It’s not happiness because happiness is fleeting, but it’s always being all of who you are to all of what you do.

James: I wonder if that’s related to utopia.

John: Well, the EU is good. I’m sure it’s cousins of, but it’s just that optimal state of who you are and what you do. I feel like, in a way, professionalism prevents us from achieving that. Professionalism’s whole goal is go to work with one arm tied behind your back.

James: Conformity.

John: Yeah, and as a shell of who you are, put on that veneer to protect yourself. Eudaimonia is like, no, no, let it shine all the time, obviously, in an appropriate way, depending on the time and place, but don’t be a shell of who you are. I’m going back old school too, maybe not quite as old school as you but close, relatively speaking.

James: Yeah, if you look at the Egyptians and the Roman Stoics as well, they had it fairly well summed up as well. They knew what they were talking about.

John: Exactly. That’s a good question.

James: Can I hit you with another question?

John: Oh, absolutely. I’m on your show. What are you talking about?

James: Give me a chance to speak on my own show, please. What is your most used emoji?

John: My most used emoji is the laughy face because I need people to know that I’m being sarcastic. There needs to be a sarcasm font so then people know that I’m joking. Or if I say something super sarcastic, that they know that I’m not being mean.

James: We are probably some of the most sarcastic people in the world, Irish people. There’s a good old thing I say, point number four, right? The reason why I say that, John, is because on St. Patrick’s Day, I normally send to some of my friends, 15 points you know you’re Irish when.

John: Okay, okay.

James: Things like, whenever you want someone, you get your granny to light a candle to Jesus, that sort of Irishness, right?

John: Right.

James: Point number four is you show your affection for someone via insults.

John: Right. Exactly. They can take it.

James: Absolutely.

John: Or even if it’s just sarcasm or it’s not even necessarily even full on insult, but it’s laughy face. Then it’s like, all right. That’s like my get out of jail free card. It’s almost like you can say whatever you want and then laughy face. It’s like, well, he didn’t mean it.

James: What’s the first concert you attended?

John: Oh, first concert, easy. It was Metallica, and it was in the Riverport Amphitheater in St. Louis. I was 15. It was the Black Album had just come out. There were like six or seven or eight of us piled into my dad’s minivan, and he drove us to the amphitheater. There were way too many of us in this minivan. We went to the amphitheater. We went to the show. My dad went to his office, did work, I guess, came back. This was way before cellphones even existed. We found the minivan and got — I mean, now we couldn’t do that without a smartphone of like, where are you? What’s your coordinates? It all worked.

Man, it was unbelievable show. I’ll never forget it. Who was the opening band? Oh, there was an opening band. It was called Metal Church. We had never heard of them, but the four dudes sitting in front of us were the Metal Church super fans of the universe, I guess. I don’t know. Or they were on something. Yeah, they were way into it. Oh, man, I’ll never forget it. It was unbelievable.

James: First concert I was ever at was Def Leppard.

John: Oh, there you go. Okay.

James: I am a Def Leppard super fun, by the way. I’m actually passionate about Def Leppard. Believe it or not, the best concert I was ever at was in the same night in Belfast, and I actually then went the next night to Dublin, was Tesla, Journey, Whitesnake and Def Leppard.

John: Oh, my goodness. That’s amazing.

James: I went two nights in a row, one in Belfast and the other in Dublin.

James: I bet you couldn’t talk for two weeks from singing every song.

James: Absolutely. Oh, God, absolutely.

John: That’s one of those concerts where it’s like, they wrote that one too? What?

James: I do know that Def Leppard is incredibly popular in America, but they’re actually not particularly popular here, which is incredible.

John: Yeah, that’s sad.

James: Given the fact that one of the guitarists is originally from the town 15 miles away from me.

John: Oh, wow.

James: They’ve even gambled from here.

John: It would bring it all back to how we started, back to Ireland. There it is. There we go.

James: Just a crazy story, I was in Heathrow Airport one day, and I was walking along with a friend of mine. I looked at the corner of my eye. This guy was sitting on a chair who looked like Rick Allen, the drummer from Def Leppard, and had only one arm. What does James the person ask him? Are you Rick Allen? Quite obviously it was Rick Allen. He said one of the most rock and roll things. He said, “I am some of time, mate.” I’m like, oh my god, you’re just so cool. You’re just simply a rock god, but a really nice guy, a really, really nice guy.

John: I need to use that line now. If people, “Hey, are you John,” which no one has ever asked, for the record, but when they do, I’m going to go, “I am some of the time,” and then just walk away. I’ll also have one arm tucked into my jacket, so they’d be like, maybe that’s the Def Leppard guy.

James: There’s a striking resemblance.

John: Yeah, right? Not at all. Not at all. Well, James, this has been awesome and so much fun. We could go on for hours and hours, but I should probably wrap this up for everyone else. Thank you so much for taking time to be a part of What’s Your “And”? This was really fun.

James: Pleasure. Really enjoyed it, John.

John: Yeah, and everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of James’s travels or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. Don’t forget to check out the book. Audio version’s out now.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 377 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, barnesandnoble.com, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read the book to you, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. It just came out last week. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon, and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Adrian Mayse. He’s the Chair and Associate Professor of the Department of Accounting at Howard University in Washington, DC, and the author of the children’s book, When I Grow Up, I Want to be an Accountant. Now he’s with me here today. Adrian, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Adrian: Thank you, John.

John: This is going to be awesome, man. My dream is when kids say, “I want to be an accountant when I grew up.” Forget astronauts or firefighters. No. Accountant, I’m telling you. You can’t do any of that other stuff without the accounting. You can’t.

Adrian: You can’t.

John: I’m excited to get into that. First, I have my 17 rapid-fire questions that will get to know Adrian on a new level here, so here we go. How about when it comes to puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

Adrian: Crossword.

John: Crossword. Okay, all right. How about more of a talk or text?

Adrian: Text.

John: Text, okay. Yeah, so the podcast is going to be tough. All right. I’m teasing, man. We should just chat back and forth. At the end of 30 minutes, tell everyone, well, that was amazing. How about a favorite color?

Adrian: Blue.

John: Blue. Nice. Mine too. How about a least favorite color?

Adrian: Green.

John: Green. Interesting. Okay, all right. How about a favorite Disney character?

Adrian: Interesting. You got me.

John: There’s a million now.

Adrian: Yeah. The one that came to mind for some reason was Aladdin.

John: Okay. That’s a solid answer, man.

Adrian: No, I had to think about it. I was like, is Aladdin Disney?

John: You know what? I think anything animated, I’ll take. No, that’s a solid answer. Very cool. Very cool. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Adrian: Star Trek.

John: Star Trek. Interesting. All right, all right. How about a computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Adrian: I’m a PC, but I have a Mac that I’m using now. Not my choice.

John: Yeah, I’m a PC guy as well. I don’t know how Macs work. I really don’t. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Adrian: It switches, but I want to say, at this moment, strawberry.

John: Strawberry. Okay, all right. Yeah, you don’t hear that very much, so that’s a good answer. How about a favorite season, summer, winter, spring or fall?

Adrian: Summer.

John: Summer. Okay.

Adrian: I like the heat, but I don’t like — I’m from Mississippi, so I don’t like the Mississippi heat.

John: Oh, boy.

Adrian: But I like the summertime.

John: There you go. All right. How about, oh, since you’re in the Accounting Department, balance sheet or income statement?

Adrian: Hmm.

John: That’s a deep one, right?

Adrian: Yeah.

John: It’s silly and not at the same time.

Adrian: I’m going to go with income statement.

John: Okay. All right. Just show me the numbers. Boom, there it is. Here we go, favorite day of the week.

Adrian: I know what that is not my favorite, but favorite, I’m going to say Saturday.

John: Saturday. Yeah, totally. It’s hard to argue against that one. That’s for sure. How about suit and tie or jeans and a T-shirt?

Adrian: Jeans and T-shirt.

John: Okay. All right, all right. Yeah, didn’t even think twice on that one. Do you have a favorite number?

Adrian: I have two, seven and five. Five was the initial one, and seven came later.

John: Yeah. Is there a reason why?

Adrian: Just seven is the number of completion, Alpha Phi fraternity. We have seven founders.

John: Okay. Yeah, yeah. No, totally, seven’s my number too, but it’s mostly sports-related, I think, yeah, seven and eight. I don’t know why. I think because, alphabetically, that’s where my jersey number always came, as a kid, so I was like, well, I guess these are my numbers. That’s how it works. How about books, audio version, Kindle or real book?

Adrian: Oh, I need a real book. I need a physical copy of the book.

John: Yeah, I’m that way as well. It’s just better for me. I don’t know. The audio version, people kept asking, so you have it now, people. You’re happy now. All right? We’ve got three more. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Adrian: Favorite actress is Phylicia Rashad.

John: Oh, okay. All right. Yeah. That’s awesome. How about an early bird or night owl?

Adrian: I’m getting older, so I’m in the middle of it. I’m going to say it depends.

John: It depends. I’m in the nap level.

Adrian: Yeah.

John: I’m starting to take naps so that I can do both.

Adrian: Yeah.

John: Right? That’s awesome. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Adrian: I have the most amazing puppy. Wait, he’s not a puppy anymore, dog. His name is Guy, and he’ll be turning five on Monday.

John: That’s awesome.

Adrian: He’s terrible in a good way.

John: What kind of dog is he?

Adrian: He’s a Maltese Yorkie.

John: Oh, wow. Okay. That’s awesome, man. Yeah, dogs are great. That’s for sure. Yeah, and it’s all of a sudden now, you’re five years? How’s that possible?

Adrian: Yeah, it was like a couple of years ago.

John: That’s awesome, man. Let’s talk about the book. I love it. I love the title. I love everything about it. Just getting kids to think differently and how accounting is not what they portray on TV shows and movies and whatever people think accountants are. The character in The Office was Kevin.

Adrian: Yeah.

John: It’s like, come on.

Adrian: I was going to say what TV show or what movie, but gotcha.

John: Yeah, yeah. Or just with the stereotype of what people think, it’s like, guy. So, what spurred you to — I mean, you just don’t roll out of bed one day, and I’m going to write a book. I’m sure that there’s some thought that goes into it.

Adrian: Yeah, there was thought that went into it. There are a lot of initiatives that we have in the accounting profession that really only starts at the high school level, and it goes from high school, to college, to industry, CPAs and so forth, but I haven’t seen anything that engaged young children. I was like, there needs to be a children’s book. I had been thinking about it for a while. Actually, there’s another one before mine.

John: Oh, okay.

Adrian: It’s got a little accounting. So, I’m just happy right now to see two books out.

John: Right?

Adrian: Yeah. The purpose was for students to see themselves in the book and to hear about the profession.

John: Literally because there’s a page in there where you can put your picture, right?

Adrian: Yeah.

John: Yeah, which is super cool, man. In my book, there is no place for that. There is no place for you to put your own face. As a kid, that’s cool to be able to visualize it.

Adrian: Yeah, that’s the teacher in me. I was supposed to probably be a K through third grade teacher, but I ran from it. I think this is me connecting back to what I thought I was going to be doing.

John: No, I love it, man. I think that’s really cool. How long did that take?

Adrian: It’s been something I wanted to do for a while. Interestingly, I found the email that I had listed all the things that I wanted to accomplish one day. Generically, I had children’s book, but this was not the idea of…

John: Right?

Adrian: … What is a children’s book. It said, start a business. It said all these different things. So, I started thinking about it. After, the book has evolved to what it is. I started writing in 2019. Then because last year, everything happened with the pandemic, just going back and forth with the illustrator was pretty much the process last year.

John: Yeah.

Adrian: I had a very distinct vision about how I wanted the book to look like, and when I expressed that to her, she took it from there. She did a great job. Yeah, that was the process.

John: No, that’s awesome, man. Yeah. Because writing a book, unless you’ve done it, it’s a journey. It’s a journey. You get other people involved. As long as they get your vision, the vision becomes better than what you even thought, it sounds like, especially with the illustrator.

Adrian: Right. So, two things happened and things just worked together, how I feel how it’s supposed to come together. First thing is that the book is self-published. I just had the experience with my fiancé three years ago, when he self-published his book, so I knew the ins and outs to get it self-published.

It was slightly different because it was a children’s book and there were pictures and illustration, but the person I reached out to, this is her maybe fifth, sixth children’s book. I like what she had did then. When I saw what she did now, I was like, oh, my gosh. When I got it at this time, it was amazing. It wasn’t bad before, but it’s like, oh, my gosh, this is amazing what you’ve done. Yeah, things just happened. I’m just fortunate to know someone that did children’s books and also to have went through that self-publishing process.

John: Right. Yeah. It’s so awesome, man. That’s so awesome. Do you feel like any of that process at all translates to your work at Howard University or in the Accounting Department?

Adrian: Oh, absolutely. It’s really a part of my motivation behind it because, especially as the chair now, all this conversation about how to increase the diversity within the profession. All these things are great. I think all these need to happen, but something’s missing early on. For me, it was the children’s book. To someone else, it may be a puzzle. To someone else, it may be animation. I think those are some of the things that can be done I have tons of ideas that I’m still working on that can be done to expose children. We have so many things in different professions. Even toys, there could be some toys out there that — I mean, I don’t know.

John: Right?

Adrian: Yeah, I’m thinking about that, too. I have something written down, but those are some of the things that they’d be, at least, exposed to.

John: Yeah, because you don’t even know that it’s a thing until maybe it’s too late or something. So, I think that’s fantastic, especially in neighborhoods where being an accountant really isn’t an option, like, I don’t know, an accountant type of thing. It’s cool that that book reaches out to those kids especially, to get them in the mix early.

Adrian: Yeah.

John: That’s awesome. What’s the take? Do you share this with people at work? Hey, I’m writing this book. Here’s how it’s going, and here’s the final product. Or was there a part of you that was like, well, I’ll just maybe keep it on the side and whatever?

Adrian: My process with a lot of things is that, things I’m working on, I think you should keep it to yourself for a moment. Then there’s a time to, okay, I feel like let me share this with my household. It kind of stayed there. When it was released, I have this thing now that I, during COVID, I saved everybody’s text messages in my phone. I want to know who I’ve been engaging with during this time. So it was very easy that the day that it was available, I just had this text message, and I just shouted it out to everybody. I just went through my phone, just sending the same message. They were like, what? You did what? It was all these different responses. When did you do this? You didn’t say anything.

John: Right? We just hung out two months ago, dude. Really?

Adrian: No. We just talked last night.

John: Oh, my God.

Adrian: It was like family members and everything. You did what?

John: Right? The name says, Adrian Mayse, but the text says that you wrote a book. Are you sure or is my phone mixing stuff? Who is this?

Adrian: Someone said, “Is this yours?” I said, “Oh, you didn’t. You didn’t read it.”

John: That’s awesome, man. What was the reaction?

Adrian: The reaction has been great. A lot of people was like, oh, my gosh, you stole my idea. No, I didn’t. You can go ahead and write your children’s book too. That’s been my response. We need more than two.

John: Right, right.

Adrian: It has been good. It’s been great.

John: Yeah, it’s all positive. There’s a part of you that’s like, I probably should have told them six months ago or whatever, but you want to make sure it’s good.

Adrian: It wasn’t that. Sometimes people don’t understand until they see it. I just wanted to — I knew what my intentions were. I had a thought. Let me complete this. Even if the reception wasn’t what it is right now, I still would have been okay because this is what I want to accomplish and what I thought was needed. Versus someone else, you’re telling them and they’re like, “What’s the point in that?” Which I have had that, and I’m thinking like, well, it’s not for you.

John: Right? You’re also not a child. So, there’s that. That’s so true, and that’s something that’s really powerful, what you just said, is instead of, I’m an author, it’s, I enjoy writing. Or I enjoy running, or I enjoy whatever it is. It doesn’t matter if it’s good because it’s for me. I enjoy painting. Are your paintings good? Maybe no. Who cares? So that’s really powerful for people to get that because I think that we get in our own ways in our own head.

Adrian: Talking about more about my friends maybe.

John: Yeah.

Adrian: My friends may be listening to the podcast, so, hey, friends. We did some discussion, after the fact. Oh, you should do A, B, C, and D. I was like, no, I want this to be an enjoyable experience. I need to do this my way and what I feel is right, at the time. All those things are going to come. Just let me sit in it. I don’t want to be about what’s happening. Let things flow as they flow. I make decisions. I make decisions. I don’t want to just push all this out and accept this appearance and this thing. Now, it’s not fun. I wrote it to encourage students to be a part of profession. Also, it was something that I wish I had as a child. Again, it was fun. The conversations I’m having have been fun conversations. I don’t want to ever feel like, oh, I’ve got to do another podcast. I don’t want to feel that way.

John: No, no, I’m with you on that, and I’m trying not to ruin it. No, I’m just joking. I’m teasing.

Adrian: You’re doing great.

John: I’m teasing, man. I’m teasing. You’re exactly right. If it doesn’t bring you joy, and it’s not something that is a creation that you wanted to do, then why am I doing this? I’m the same way. When I speak at conferences or when I wrote my book, when my comedy album came out 10 years ago, it was very much like, what do I want it to be if I was in the audience or if I was a reader? Then write it that way and/or create the thing for that and then hope that I’m not the only one on the planet that thinks that way, but then I’m proud of it. I’ll tell everyone about it then. Where if other people start to mix up your vision, then it’s like, well, now I don’t even want to tell anybody because that’s not what I wanted. So, that’s cool, man. That’s super cool.

Before you got into writing a book, is there another outside-of-work hobby or passion that you enjoy doing?

Adrian: I enjoy singing.

John: Oh, okay.

Adrian: Let me clarify. I enjoy singing, I want to say chorale music, but I like to harmonize. I do not sing normally just by myself as a solo, but I do enjoy singing in groups that we can harmonize.

John: Yeah, like an a cappella sort of a thing?

Adrian: Interestingly enough, I’ve not done a cappella, but I am part of a chorus. It’s called the Gay Men’s Chorus of Washington, DC.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Adrian: It’s like hundreds of us in the chorus.

John: You can’t just — I mean, I’m a terrible singer. I don’t know why. I can play an instrument. I can hear things are out of tune. Then as soon as, noise is coming out of my mouth. Even in church, old ladies, like, “Hey, just stop. It’s cool.” It sounds so bad. When people are like, what do you wish you had a superpower? I wish I could sing and dunk a basketball. That’s all I want in life. They’re like, well, regular people can do that. I’m like, I know, but I can’t. No, that’s awesome, man. That’s really cool. Did you grow up singing?

Adrian: Yes, I grew up in the church, singing, all four years of high school, singing one semester a year in college, and then, yeah, back to church. I was looking for a chorus I could identify with more. That’s why I joined the chorus here. I’ve been part of, two years now.

John: That’s cool, man. That’s so great. That’s so great. It’s a cool outlet, and it’s just something that really lights you up. Because work lights you up sometimes, but sometimes not. Singing, man, every time, that makes you happy. That’s super cool. That’s awesome, man. I can’t wait till we’re past all this so then we can, yeah, stumble into DC and go to a concert.

Adrian: Hey, you can go on YouTube. There’s tons of GMCW videos. We’ve been doing some virtual concerts. They’re on YouTube.

John: That’s awesome. Are you each in your own homes, and you have to harmonize over —

Adrian: Yes, singing over a track, and they do their harmonizing and production, and there we are.

John: That’s awesome, dude. That’s so cool. That’s really cool. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that’s, whether they’re in accounting or engineering or law or whatever white collar nerd job they have — I say that affectionately because I’m also one –where they think, well, I have a hobby, but no one cares, and it has nothing to do with my job?

Adrian: I hear a lot of people say they have their career and then they have their passion. I think those things can be one. Everybody may not be, and that’s okay too. Because some people work is work, and I need my outlet, and that’s my hobby and passion. Some people don’t want those things to merge, but when they do, I think it’s great.

Writing this book, I think I probably have been in the most happiest places I’ve been, as far as even with work now, because I have a renewed focus. So I will say just, try to mostly be aware of what you want to do. There are plenty of opportunities. You don’t know what your passion will look like. Like me, right now, this children’s book, I had no clue what it would look like, but I knew that it would be something one day.

John: Yeah, so just start the journey. Just one step and then another step and then before you know it, you have a children’s book that rocks. Hey, there you go. What do you know? What do you know? Now, I love that advice. That’s awesome. I love too, just hearing how having that outside of work, that “and” lit you up when you were at work, renewed energy and renewed enthusiasm. That’s cool because it’s hard, or rather, it’s easy for us to lose focus of that sometimes. That’s cool, man. Very cool. That’s awesome.

Well, before I wrap this up, it’s only fair that I turn the tables, and the first episode of the Adrian Mayse podcast. Thanks for having me on. I booked myself. I’m all yours, since I fired away at you with my rapid-fire questions at the beginning.

Adrian: All right, first question, what’s your favorite color?

John: Oh, favorite color. Yeah, mine is also blue, all blues. I really just — yeah, I don’t know why. It’s always been blue. The navy blue is great. Royal blue is also solid. Teal’s got a place. Yeah, blue is always good.

Adrian: Yeah, I’m the same way. I don’t know any blue that I don’t like.

John: Right? Yeah, it’s just all good. It’s always good. It’s happy. It’s fun. You can wear it and not — I mean, I can wear it, and it’s good. That might be a factor. I don’t know. It’s just, yeah, blue, for sure.

Adrian: What’s your favorite place to visit in the — well, world?

John: Okay. Yeah, wow. Okay, so probably the coolest place I’ve been in the world is Cape Town, South Africa. Zanzibar is an island in the Indian Ocean, also super cool. Yeah, here in the US, there are so many great places. DC is awesome because the museums and the monuments and the history there. I used to live in New York City. There’s an energy. A favorite, Denver’s pretty awesome. I live there, so I guess I don’t have to visit. Costa Rica is also super cool. If people haven’t been there, that’s definitely worth a trip once we’re allowed to do that. Yeah, I’d probably say, mostly not the US, for some reason. Maybe because I take it for granted, all this stuff that we have that’s awesome here.

Adrian: What’s your favorite season?

John: Fall, easily. It’s, college football happens, the trees are starting to turn colors, and it’s not as hot, but it’s not cold either. Yeah, it’s that. Growing up in Mississippi, I don’t even know how you did it, man. I would have died at three. I would have melted and just disintegrated.

Adrian: We didn’t know any better. That’s all we knew.

John: Yeah, I guess that’s a good point.

Adrian: Oh, wait a minute. What did we do wrong?

John: Right. We’ve all the bugs and everything and the humidity and the heat. It’s like, what? Yeah, fall, for sure.

Adrian: What do you do to decompress, relax?

John: Oh, wow. Yeah. Now, that’s a good question. I love going to concerts when we’re allowed to, for sure. I also picked up rowing during the pandemic. I’m not a rower. I’ve never rowed anything. I’ve never thought of rowing. I never wanted to, but I needed to be exercising, and I hate running. Every time I go running, I’m thinking of everything I should be doing instead of running. I’m just so bored. So, I just picked up rowing and that’s been fun as well because you can get a pretty intense workout in about 20 minutes or so. It’s like, hoo, wow. It’s efficient. I like that part too.

Adrian: What is your favorite food dish?

John: Oh, wow. Yeah. Lasagna is always going to be good. A New York strip steak is always going to be good. Meat and potatoes and vegetables, that’s always going to be good. Yeah, a really good pizza. Oh, man, now I’m starving.

John: But it’s easily, ice cream. I know it’s not a dish, but it should be. Ice cream is my favorite thing always. If anyone’s like, hey, you want to go get ice cream? Yeah. I’m the friend that you don’t want to be around if you’re trying to lose weight, is going to tell you no. I’m going to be like, yeah, totally, we should.

Adrian: This is my last question, I guess.

John: Okay, last one. All right.

Adrian: You mentioned this earlier, but I don’t know if we were talking, about what makes you do the podcast.

John: Oh, wow. Yeah. The podcast started because I had someone remember me, 12 years after I left my first PwC office. I was speaking at a conference, and he says, “I know John Garrett. That’s the guy who did comedy at night,” to the meeting planner. I had no idea who he was because I don’t know taxes, and I never met him or worked with him.

So I just wanted to just shatter the stereotype of what it is to be a successful professional. It’s not all work all the time. It’s, oh, I have other things that I love to do. I’m a part of a choir. I write books. I love college football. I really enjoy horror movies or whatever your thing is. I volunteer. I, whatever. We’re all having these hobbies and passions, and in my research, it’s 92% of us. I don’t know who the 8% are, but whatever, but 92%.

For so long, though, when we grow up, and in high school, in college, and then once we start working; we think, well, if you have something, I mean, God forbid, if you have anything, but if you do, don’t talk about it because you’re not very dedicated to your career, or you’re not good at your job, or whatever these things that professionalism tells us, these lies. It’s the opposite. The more hobbies and passions you have, the less anxiety and depression, the better moral decisions you make. Then you share those hobbies and passions, engagement goes up, retention goes up, all these things.

The stereotypical professional is somebody like you and me, that has other things that light them up, and I think it’s okay to say it out loud. It’s almost mandatory that we say it out loud. That’s why. I just wanted to normalize it. You go through that Instagram feed on What’s Your “And”?, and just a bunch of people smiling. They’re all very, very happy. If I go to their head shots on their website of their business, maybe not, maybe not as much. So, yeah, just shatter that stereotype. Similar to you with the book, just shatter that stereotype of what it is. I love it, man.

This has been so much fun, man. I appreciate you taking time to be a part of What’s Your “And”?, Adrian.

Adrian: Thank you.

John: If you want to see some pictures of Adrian or link to the book or connect with him on social media, definitely check out the book for kids you know, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there, and while you’re on the page, please click that big button and do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. Don’t forget to check out the book. Audio version’s out now.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 375 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what this show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, barnesandnoble.com, Bookshop and a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes into a lot more in depth in the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon, and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. If you like my voice, the audio version is coming very soon.

Don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the interesting stories from each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Ben Loggins. He’s an owner at Logins, Kern and McCombs, just outside of Atlanta, and now he’s with me here today. Ben, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Ben: No problem, John. It’s great to be here.

John: This is going to be so much fun, so much fun. I have some rapid-fire questions, get to know Ben right out of the gate here. I’ll start you with an easy one, I think. Favorite color.

Ben: Baby blue.

John: Baby Blue. Okay. All right. How about a least favorite color?

Ben: Black is just darkness. I prefer not to be in the darkness and black, yeah.

John: Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. How about, do you have a favorite adult beverage?

Ben: Pretty much just beer. I like Sam Adams. Sam Adams lager is what I like right now.

John: There you go. That works. How about Sudoku or crossword puzzles?

Ben: I really don’t do either one.

John: All right, fair enough. Fair enough. Well, you’re out there researching UFOs. You don’t have time for that stuff. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Ben: Well, the actor right now, I like the Rock, certainly Tom Hanks and Robin Williams. As far as actress, probably Sandra Bullock, and you go back in time to Sally Field. The one thing I ask people too, do you remember The Graduate movie come out in 19 — when it came out, I was 18 when it came out in 1968, and I thought Miss Robinson was so old. I saw her recently now. She looks so young. I’m figuring out the differences. Same movie, how could she look so much younger now than she did 50 years ago?

John: That’s hilarious. Who knows? We don’t know what they’re doing with movies. Or we’re getting older. One of the two.

Ben: That’s right.

John: How about when you were in gym class in school, favorite activity?

Ben: Gee, I’d probably say running if I said something. Yeah.

John: All right, fair enough. How about, are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Ben: A little bit more of an early bird. I’m a little bit older now, so I kind of give out, come the evenings. Certainly, I get up early in the morning and do what little exercise I’m going to do and stuff, so it’s early bird.

John: There you go. All right. How about when it comes to books, real book, Kindle or an audio version?

Ben: I like real books still. It’s just the old school kind of thing that I’m used to.

John: Yeah, same to me. Yeah, to feel it and all that. Since you have the accounting background, favorite number?

Ben: I would probably say number eight or something like that. There’s really not any specific reason, but number eight.

John: Eight? Yeah, that’s a good number. It’s very symmetrical and so I like it. That’s a good one. How about a favorite movie of all time?

Ben: Favorite movie of all time. I don’t know. I most certainly like most of the Star — I’ll just say Star Wars. That’ll be fine.

John: Star Wars. Okay, yeah. No, that’s a great one because I was going to ask you next, Star Wars or Star Trek.

Ben: Star Trek. Star Trek was more of a — they had a different thing every week on their stuff. Of course I was there when it was the originally shown, so I’m remembering well. It was great to watch every week, so I enjoyed both of them.

John: Okay. That’s awesome. Very cool. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Ben: PC. I’m doing this today on my Surface.

John: Oh, yeah. Travel with one of those is fantastic. Super lightweight, really thin. Fantastic. How about a favorite ice cream flavor? I love ice cream.

Ben: Probably Oreo.

John: Oh, there you go. How about season, favorite season, summer, winter, spring or fall?

Ben: Probably fall because spring is too much tax season. Summer gets a little hot, and the fall is kind of nice. Yeah, it would be fall.

John: Yeah. Well, especially down in Georgia, yeah, summer is pretty hot.

Ben: My kid and my wife would always complain during the spring. Oh, spring break, dad, where are we going to go? No, we’re not going nowhere. I’m working. The way it always was.

John: That’s hilarious. That’s funny. How about balance sheet or income statement?

Ben: Probably balance sheet. Shows you the picture. Income statement is a moving target. It’s a little bit harder to see. The balance sheet can show you a picture of time.

John: Fair enough. Fair enough. Chocolate or vanilla.

Ben: Probably vanilla.

John: Vanilla? All right, and last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Ben: Well, I built a new house about five years ago, so it would probably be my house. I built it custom, just exactly the way I want it, and I really enjoy it.

John: That’s fantastic, man. That’s very, very cool. Let’s talk UFOs. How’d you get into that? Has it been a lifelong thing?

Ben: Well, no. I tell people that we’re here on Earth for one reason is to raise good kids, so I believe in supporting my child. Early on, she was an ice skater, so I did ice skating with her for about 10 years. I was on the Governing Council of the United States Figure Skating Association, did a bunch of stuff there.

Then in the early 2000s, she took a liking to a TV show called Roswell. It was about some teenagers that had converted to the aliens, and she was, I don’t know, caught up. She did some blogging for them. They hired her to do some stuff. She said, “Dad, I’d really like to go to Roswell, learn about their original thing.”

Every summer, either the last week of June or first week of July, they have a festival. Anybody who’s interested, it would be a great thing to go to. About, I don’t know, five or 10,000 people show up to talk about UFOs, their experience with UFOs. We went to that. Now we’ve been to that three times, and the last time we went out there, went on a dig of a crash site. My daughter and I and a bunch of people from MUFON did a dig at a crash site.

John: Where they say a UFO crashed?

Ben: Well, the crash site. The question, was it a UFO or not? There certainly was debris, and no one questions the site and the crash. It’s about, I don’t know, maybe 70 miles north of Roswell, out in the high desert. I don’t know how high it is, but we were there in October and, boy, it was cold wind. It was a desert. Again, it’s in high desert. It was interesting.

First time we went out there in ‘04, I was kind of novice at that point in time. You go to this novice seminars. You get people. You go to their seminars. One person talking about being able to meditate and talk to aliens in their head. Another person, you go to another seminar, and it’s theologians arguing about the UFOs and the Bible, and there are comments about UFOs in the Bible. They argued about that and go back to the Hebrew Bible. Really interesting to see the different people.

At that time, I built a friendship with some of the people in charge out there, mainly with Don Schmitt, and Tom Carey who, Don’s probably the number one Roswell UFO person now. He’s on TV. Any time doing a show, he’s on it. Bonded with him. I also met Edgar Mitchell, the sixth man to walk on the moon. He spoke to a group. After speaking, my wife and daughter and I went out and had supper. He walked in by himself, so we, “Come over and have dinner with us.”

John: Oh, wow, that’s awesome.

Ben: It’s not many times you get to meet the sixth man to walk on the moon.

John: Right, or any of them.

Ben: Interesting fellow. In 2005, I love to public speak. Back in my initial career, I was at IRS. I was an IRS agent then I was an IRS classroom — they taught me how to be a classroom instructor, and I really enjoyed public speaking. I’ve probably given a UFO presentation maybe 40 times, mainly to Kiwanis clubs and rotary clubs and things like that. So, I did a video. I know you’ve got the link. You put up the link.

John: Yeah, I have it up on the show page for everybody.

Ben: They want to go see my presentation. It’s really been interesting to see the people and meet the UFO experts. We met Travis Walton. Now, Travis in, I don’t know, ‘78 or sometime, he was abducted on an alien craft for five days. They did a movie about his stuff. It’s called Fire in the Sky. You go look at that movie about Travis, but Travis, he’s an interesting fellow. We had dinner with him one night. I think that was in ‘12. That would have been in ‘12. Interesting people. That’s a great thing to go if someone has interest in UFOs at all.

John: That’s cool. So, it all just started because your daughter was watching the show, Roswell, and just doing some research on it. Then it was like, well, let’s go there and see what it’s all about.

Ben: That’s exactly how it got started.

John: That’s amazing. What is the dig? I’m guessing in my head, but what is it actually? Because I imagine it’s a decent-sized area.

Ben: Well, it is. The debris was scattered over an area of about three football fields. The dig, we went up there — I think I put a couple of pictures in since YouTube — they plotted out in squares and then they go over it with metal detectors, square by square, trying to find things. Here it is, 50 years later. We found a few anomaly materials that they sent off to be inspected. I’ve never heard a report back of what they found, but it was a fun thing. It was about 40 people there and going over it. Some of the people were MUFON peoples from Arizona. They had been there at the time that the Phoenix Lights had occurred and stuff. It was really interesting event, to be there for those three days.

John: Yeah, that’s amazing. I imagine it’s not just those three days. It carries on throughout the rest of the year, where you’re doing some research or reading about it or —

Ben: I’m doing research. I like to watch the things on TV that come up about it, needless to say. The actual movie they did which is called, Roswell, is really good. Martin Sheen is the main character in that. It’s an excellent depiction of what occurred. I know Don Schmitt was one of the background people to give them context, so that’s a great movie of what happened. It’s really interesting to see.

On my video, typically when I do my presentations, I think it’s 22 minutes long, but there’s about 12 or 15 minutes of embedded videos from eyewitness people, to people who talked to eyewitness people to hear their stories. It’s hard to go out there and immerse yourself in the history of what happened and talk to all these people and not believe something pretty odd happened. It wasn’t just a weather balloon.

John: Right.

Ben: I know that Don Schmitt and Tom wrote a book where they interviewed probably, I don’t know, 20, 30 people and have their testimony. Of course you’re looking at, when we went out to the dig, it would have been in ‘13, so it would have been, what, 55 years after the crash. Even then, the people were beginning to die off that had direct involvement. Now it’s 75 years after the crash, one of the people we talked to was Frankie Rowe, who was involved. Her dad went out to the crash and met the alien characters, and she tells about that. We interviewed her on my little video there.

Now you’re looking at it, later and later, so the people are beginning to die off. Less eye witness people and more of the secondary people is really what’s there now, but still great time to go to the festival. Again, Roswell festival, UFO festival, might come up with that on — I don’t know how it went this summer with the COVID and everything, probably messed them up. Still, it’s a great event.

John: That’s fantastic, and you accidentally have dinner with an astronaut.

Ben: Right. It was great, yeah.

John: Cool things, plus it just broadens your perspective, and it’s all kinds of people that are there, I imagine, all backgrounds. It’s not just one type of person. You have a variety of people that are all coming together to learn more and to talk more and discuss.

Ben: It’s not just Roswell. They had a seminar one night on crop circles. Now that was really interesting. The context is crop circles are like, you look at hurricanes and tornadoes, it’s like the Earth burping and comes up with a crop circle. It’s very similar thing to how tornadoes occur. Well, they’re odd atmospheric things. The same thing with this, the Earth burping, so to speak, and causing your crop circles. It’s interesting to see it.

Other people talking about other alien things. There was one there with a Starbaby, had a skull from a half-alien, half-human hybrid that they found way back when. It’s called the Starbaby is what his book was about. Lloyd Pye wrote that. It’s interesting to see all these different people and their different perspectives on alien culture and UFO culture.

John: That is interesting. Do you feel like any of this translates to work at all? Part of me thinks that your IRS background, clearly, getting into the nitty-gritty and researching and all that, there’s some parallel there.

Ben: Maybe a little bit. When I go and give my speech, I get a call from a rotary club and they’ll say, “Oh, we want you to come and speak.” They have accountants in their club. I’ll tell them, nobody hires me as their accountant from this talk.

John: Right?

Ben: I love to speak. I get power from speaking to groups, and I love to public speak. I do it more for fun than I do, certainly, to get clients. Although I do a lot of speaking too, on accounting stuff, to get clients, but this presentation is a pure fun thing that I do.

John: Absolutely, but sometimes there’s accidentally a skill or a mindset or something that’s a muscle that you’re exercising outside of work that then when you get to work, or it’s talking about it at work. Is it something that you do discuss with coworkers or clients?

Ben: Oh, yeah. The coworkers all know how I feel. The first time I came back in ‘04, they had a party for me. I think I sent you a couple pictures of me. They did a jello UFO baby, and I was supposed to dissect it and stuff. The employees really enjoyed it. A lot of my friends think it’s interesting. I tell people, anytime, you hear the full 22-minute story, then you say, geez, the government is lying to us, so you come away knowing that government lying to us. Of course, that’s pretty easy to convince you the government lies to you. We know they lied to us about tons of stuff.

John: Right, right. Exactly. Exactly.

Ben: They say, why won’t they disclose it? I say, well, if you had some technique to turn paper into gold, would you want to tell everybody how to do that? No. You will keep it for yourself to keep it valuable. The government’s supposed to be reverse engineering all this stuff at Area 51. It’s really very interesting.

John: No, no, it is, and it’s something to talk about besides work when you’re at work.

Ben: Oh, yeah.

John: How important do you think it is that people have an outside-of-work interest to bring to the office or to enhance their career at all?

Ben: Well, it certainly broadens their flexibility and their knowledge of things by having outside. A lot of people, and certainly when my daughters were young, it was more focused around her. She got older, then we got into these other things. A lot of people have children. I tell people that, look, children are the most important thing. I’ve got my 17 employees. I think six of them have been with me for 35 years just because —

John: Wow.

Ben: I say, look, we’ve got flexibility. If your kids have a ballgame, go be with your kid. Do whatever you need to, for your kid. As long as the work gets done, that’s all I care about. So employees have stayed with me for a long time because they enjoy the work environment and the flexibility. Not so much the UFO stuff. That’s not a big part of the work environment. Although I do have books on the shelves behind me showing — talking about UFO. If someone he wants to talk about it, I’ll certainly talk about it.

There’s a lot of wild theories out there as to how the Earth came to be and how the UFOs caused it. The Ancient Aliens talk a lot about it too, on the TV series on the History Channel. It’s all interesting. I do find it interesting as to how the aliens have influenced our society and how we’ve gotten to where we are. It’s interesting.

John: No, it really is. I think what’s really crucial, especially with, literally, your name on the door, is that it humanizes you, whether it’s the ice skating, or it’s the UFO thing. I think it’s cool that you came back from that first trip, and they had a party. That’s awesome. Imagine if every single employee of every place you work, if you went on a trip somewhere for something that really lights you up, and you came back, and they had a party themed for that. That’d be awesome. It’s like, wow, my people care.

Ben: It was awesome. We try to bring fun into the work environment, so the employees can get enjoyment out of it and certainly feel like the workers are their friends, not just their coworkers, and not having those petty things you have between a lot of employees. I don’t feel like we have any of those. Of course right now, it’s me and 15 women. So, again, it’s different.

John: Right, different dynamic.

Ben: Different dynamic, that’d be the way to say it. Still, they’re great employees, and I love all of them.

John: That’s cool to hear. You genuinely care about them, and they genuinely care about you. That’s the thing that I feel professionalism kind of prevents. It makes us more two-dimensional. No one cares about your ice skating or whatever. It’s like, no, they do. They do care.

Ben: It’s great to have that where the employees care about each other and want each other to be the most — couple of employees, I’ve helped them find other jobs because they maxed out where I was. I said, look — they weren’t CPAs, they were clerical staff — I said, look, this is as high as you can come here. They agreed, so I helped them find other jobs somewhere else where they can do more. It’s more about caring about that person. I want them to be all they can be, rather than just care about how much profit I carry home.

John: Yeah. I love that so much, so much. That’s so fantastic. Do you have any big takeaways for people listening or words of encouragement for somebody that has a hobby that they think, well, it has nothing to do with my job and no one’s going to care about it?

Ben: Well, you need to broaden your horizons and have these outside hobbies and interests, certainly. Most of my employees have something on the side, either their young kids or their work kids. Some of them play musical instruments and play in little bands and stuff. Again, it’s a matter of finding something out there to do that brings you fulfillment in life, and certainly something that you can do when you get older, when you retire.

I tell people too, they need a calling in life. When you retire or when you cut back, you need to feel like you’re still a value to society. You need to be bringing some kind of value into society. Otherwise, you get to the point where you just feel like there’s no value to it anymore, and why are you here? So, it’s important to have your life well-rounded enough to be able to enjoy these other pieces of life.

John: Yeah, what a great tip. That’s something that I didn’t realize when I was speaking on this for the first couple of years and then started doing some consulting with organizations and then had an executive pull me aside and say, “I’m supposed to retire in three years, and I don’t know what I’m going to go do.” That’s when it hit me. What? I was thinking of while you’re working, how it enhances the culture and engagement and retention but, man, after you retire, you have to have, like you said, a sense of purpose and something to go to.

Ben: My dad retired at 57. He was a postman. The next 25 years, he just played his guitar every day, old folks home, anybody listening to him. Again, and they enjoyed it. It’s a matter of you feeling value to society and you bring that value to, no matter if it’s just delivering Meals on Wheels or doing something, so that you feel like there’s a need for you to be here.

John: I love that. I love that so much, so, so much. Well, this has been so much fun, Ben. It’s only fair that before I bring this in for a landing, that I turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Ben Loggins podcast. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, I’m all yours. Fire away.

Ben: John, what do you think about UFOs? Do you feel like there are really aliens that come to visit us? Or what are your thoughts on UFO?

John: You know, I watched your video, and there’s no doubt in my mind that the government would lie to us about something like that. It also wouldn’t surprise me if there was something that was bigger and better and more sophisticated than us, another living something. It is hard to believe that we would be the only ones in the entire universe that are. I’m sure that there’s something out there that’s living. Whether or not they’re abducting us or they’re whatever, it’s hard for me to say. You can tell in the conviction from the people on your video that, wow, yeah, something happened. That’s for sure.

Ben: One of the theories is they’re abducting women and steal their eggs and abducting men and take their sperm and make hybrid creatures.

John: Interesting.

Ben: Travis Walton talks about the different kind of creatures he came in contact when he spent five days on the alien craft. So, really interesting to see, and you don’t know. Again, it’s a theory. To me, if you go to Roswell for that festival, you meet all these characters that have been abducted or done something. I certainly suggest, if you enjoy that kind of thing, it’s a side trip to make.

John: For sure. It’s one of those things where there’s definitely something bigger. It’s hard to say definitely not because there are so many possibilities out there that, yeah, it wouldn’t surprise me at all. I just hope that they’re friendly.

Ben: You hope they’ll come back to eat us all. I mean, that’s really what you hope.

John: Yikes. Right? Exactly.

Ben: There was a movie made a few years ago called Super 8. Have you ever seen that one?

John: I didn’t see that one. No.

Ben: Super 8 is a story, loosely, on moving the alien from Wright-Patterson to Area 51 back in the ‘50s. They had this great video, and they were making some videos. An alien escaped and ravaged this little town and tried to gut people to use them as food as he returned home or something. Really interesting movie. The question is, are they going to be like us, or are they going to be like Independence Day? Because that —

John: Oh, wow. Yeah.

Ben: Area 51 is right about that, and that’s where you see in the film. What are the aliens going to be like when they come back and forth? I don’t know.

John: I prefer the ET version, the chill and just super friendly and his heart is glowing. It’s like, all right. The bad thing with that is I’m sure that humans would wreck it. Because in that movie, it was people trying to kill him and get him, so I don’t know. Or even like a Men in Black. Those were pretty fun. Or like the Cantina from Star Wars. They’re all fun too.

Ben: Right.

John: Just the comedy brain in me makes me want to make them fun and interesting and lovable.

Ben: I saw somewhere on the… I forget where I saw the… I think it was on the internet today. Somewhere in Iowa has a headstone that says, Captain Kirk, born here in 2024 or whatever. So, it’s supposed to be his hometown, where he’s going to be born in 2024 to start Star Trek.

John: Oh, wow. Yeah, and that’s coming up.

Ben: Yeah.

John: It’s like those Back to the Future years and those — when those movies came out, it was so far in the future, and it’s like, we’ve already passed that. Hoverboards happened, like in those movies.

Ben: Yeah. You go back far enough and of course when you’re my age, you read 1984 in the late ‘60s. Oh, gee, this is never going to be the case. They ain’t got the surveil everybody, know everything. We’re almost there now.

John: We’re there.

Ben: It won’t take us long to get to there.

John: They’re listening to us right now, Ben.

Ben: I don’t doubt it. I don’t doubt it.

John: I appreciate you being a part of this. It was so much fun talking with you. I’m excited to be able to cross paths sometime when we’re traveling again. Thanks so much, Ben.

Ben: Let me know when you want to go to Roswell for the festival. I’m going to meet up with you out there. Okay?

John: That sounds awesome.

Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Ben and his travels and what he’s seeing or connect with him on social media and check out that link to his video of him speaking, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. Don’t forget to check out the book. Audio version’s coming soon.

Thanks again for subscribing to the podcast on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 373 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon, and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Leslie Ehm. She’s the Swagger Coach at Combustion Training, as well as a speaker and author of the book, Swagger, available for pre-order right now, and she’s with me here today. Leslie, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Leslie: This is a whole new kind of fun podcast treat for me because I get to talk about something other than the whole Swagger thing, although I want to talk about the Swagger thing, but I get to talk about the “And”.

John: Exactly, the other side of how you made it through writing the book. I have my rapid-fire questions, get to know Leslie on a new level here, right out of the gate. I’ll start you out with an easy one, favorite color.

Leslie: Black.

John: Black. Okay. All right, how about a least favorite color?

Leslie: Kind of like a poopy brown.

John: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, that’s gross. Yeah, yeah. I get that one a lot, that brown that’s almost purple, where it’s like, well, how’s that possible? That’s weird. I’m glad you didn’t say yellow or pink since the cover of your book is yellow and pink. That’s awesome. How about cats or dogs?

Leslie: Oh, dogs.

John: Dogs. Yeah, yeah, me too. Absolutely. Do you have a favorite actor or actress?

Leslie: Oh, boy, I don’t know. To look at, for my eye, I’d have to say someone like Paul Rudd or Robert Downey, Jr. I think that you get my type from that.

John: Okay.

Leslie: Oh, Tom Hanks. Tom Hanks, too. My husband looks like a combination of Paul Rudd and Tom Hanks.

John: Nailed it. That’s awesome. Good for him. Good for him and you. Would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

Leslie: I used to be a night owl. Now, I’m too old and tired, so I’m an obscenely early bird these days in COVID times. Now, it’s 4:46.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Leslie: Oh, yeah, it’s brutal. It’s horrible. Yeah, don’t do it, totally.

John: Wow. Okay. How about more talk or text?

Leslie: I’m a talker, but I have to say that, again, in these days of limited energy, I text a lot.

John: No, it’s just faster and get to the point. Although if there’s three back-and-forths, then I’m calling you because I’m like, I don’t know why we’re doing this right now.

Leslie: Your thumbs get tired. I have thumb fatigue. I really do. I have little tiny fingers, so I’m really good with the texting, but I do — I have experienced thumb fatigue.

John: That’s funny. How about puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

Leslie: Oh, crossword. Sudoku, no. You could give me a Sudoku and say, “You have six hours to finish it,” and I will be crying after an hour. Then you’ll have to pull me out from under the desk in order to complete it. It’s not happening.

John: That’s hilarious.

Leslie: But I’ll kick your butt in a crossword. Don’t Scrabble me.

John: Don’t Scrabble you. No, no.

Leslie: Tone down.

John: Totally. All right, how about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Leslie: Star Wars.

John: Okay. Yeah, me too.

Leslie: I have to say. Yeah. It’s more epic.

John: Yeah. Oh, totally. Your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Leslie: Mac, Mac, Mac, Mac, forever.

John: Okay.

Leslie: Yeah. As soon as Macs were available, I owned a Mac. I’m old school Mac.

John: Yeah, like the 2e or whatever it was, with the little floppy disk.

Leslie: No, I bought the one with the handle. Remember?

John: Yes.

Leslie: The one with the handle, and it had the color surround on it. I was the coolest person on the planet with my so-called portable Mac.

John: Right.

Leslie: Only seven pounds but it had a handle. That was portable, and it had the friendly Mac face on it.

John: Exactly. No, I remember that. Absolutely. That’s awesome. How about a favorite ice cream flavor? I love ice cream.

Leslie: I would like, please, to have two scoops. Can I please have a scoop of the pistachio but real legit, not the bright green crapola that you — the fakie one.

John: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Leslie: Then I would like a double chocolate mocha fudge with chunks of chocolate fudgy chunkiness, but not marshmallows. Do not besmirch my ice cream with a marshmallow. It is not acceptable.

John: Don’t rocky road me.

Leslie: No, don’t rocky road me. Just keep me mainstream. I want a mainline chocolate.

John: There you go. I like it. I like it. Here’s a good one, summer, spring, fall or winter.

Leslie: I’m Canadian. It’s got to be fall.

John: Yeah, I was going to say.

Leslie: You don’t get your Canada badge without loving fall. I hate the winter, hate, hate the fashion. I do not believe anyone should be outside. I do not want the extremities should ever experience the tingling of frostbite. I think it’s unacceptable. I’d also don’t like to have a full body sweat, butt crack sweat with —

John: Oh, yeah, yeah. Right, in summer, yeah.

Leslie: — running down and pooling in your butt crack, unacceptable as well.

John: It is in there.

Leslie: Yeah. I like the cool breeze of fall. I like the crunching of the leaves. I like the beam with the colors, yeah, all day long.

John: Yeah, I’m a fall as well on that one, for sure. How about chocolate or vanilla?

Leslie: Chocolate. Who wants vanilla?

John: You just have vanilla so you can put chocolate on it and then make a chocolate…

Leslie: The vanilla exists so you can talk about how you are so not vanilla.

John: Oh, yeah.

Leslie: It’s like a baseline of mediocrity. Prepare ourselves to why nobody or anything, no human, no flavor, no experience, no anything should ever be vanilla. It is the definition. It’s the flavor of mediocrity.

John: That’s awesome. Here’s a good one, favorite adult beverage.

Leslie: Well, I’ve given up the booze. I would have said the bourbon or the red wine. Now, I found this alcohol-free beer. That is the best thing on the planet because I never drank beer before even when I was drinking because it’s like eating a sandwich. It had 60 billion calories, 957 carbs, and you just wanted to burp up all day long. I found this incredible — ooh, plug for this great alcohol-free beer called Partake. It tastes like drinking a Corona or that kind of refreshing beer, but it has 15 freaking calories and 2 carbs.

John: Oh, wow.

Leslie: Yeah, and it comes in a whole bunch of different — like a stout and a pale and a thing and whatever. I like the blonde. Yeah, if you, like me, have said COVID has put you off alcohol forever, you too can experience the fun and frivolity of drinking a fake beer or an AF beer as it’s known.

John: Oh, alcohol-free, AF beer.

Leslie: That’s my adult beverage now.

John: Awesome. No, I love it. How about a favorite number?

Leslie: 27.

John: Is there a reason?

Leslie: I don’t really remember. Since I was a little kid, it was my favorite number, and it just stayed with me.

John: Yeah, why not? No, no, it’s a unique one. I was like, wow. All right, how about when it comes to books, audio, Kindle or real book?

Leslie: Okay, real book, for sure, for sure, for sure. Although, we bought a cottage, which means there’s a two-hour schlep in the traffic, and whenever I’m by myself, I listen to audio books. I profoundly love them. It’s like being a little kid and having someone read stories to you, so I’m a big, big, big fan of audio books. Interestingly, I choose my audio books by the reader. When I find a reader that I love, like a voice talent, I will then research what other books has this person read, and I’ll give them a go.

John: That’s interesting.

Leslie: So fantastic, the audio books, it’s amazing. Someone who could do five characters convincingly just blows my mind.

John: Yeah, when I recorded mine, it was hilarious because they had this voice coach Skype in, and I have 41 quotes from people from the podcast. These aren’t fictional characters, though. These are people I know. He’s like, oh, just do a British accent or just do — no. I know you. You’re going to come find me and punch me in the face because that’s terrible. So, yeah, we decided on a happy medium of just a different John Garrett voice because I was like, I can’t do that. The fictional books and the voices that people can do is amazing, and to flip back and forth.

Leslie: If you want to have a good time, if you’ve never listened to the Harry Potter books on audio, that is just a thing to do. Because, I think it’s Alan, oh, God, what’s his last name? That’s so bad that I can’t remember. He’s British, and he’s amazing, Alan someone, bad me. His mastery of those characters, because there’s so many characters, and every single one has a distinctive voice. It’s exceptional. It’s exceptional.

John: That is amazing. All right, we’ve got two more, two more here. How about pens or pencils?

Leslie: I do like a good pencil, but it has to be a firm 2B, proper, good pencil. I don’t like the little skinny minis. I don’t like the ones that are light. I like the ones that are almost pen-like. With pen, it’s got to be a rock solid ballpoint. I don’t like those little skinny mini markers. I don’t like those newfangled inky ones. I like so much so that I will buy those good ballpoints in bulk.

John: Yeah.

Leslie: Yeah, I buy them in bulk. So, there’s the thing about my writing utensils.

John: That’s awesome. No, no, I knew you’d have a favorite. That’s for sure. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Leslie: Wow. I don’t know if you could say have or own about your children, but I like them, and my husband too. I think the people that I have are my favorite things because everything else doesn’t matter. If I think about, God forbid, there was a fire in my house, what would I grab?

John: Your husband.

Leslie: I would grab my people and my dog. Everything else can just burn up, and I could survive. So, I would have to say my people. I couldn’t survive without my people.

John: Yeah. No, no, that’s such a great answer. It’s such a great answer. Let’s talk boxing. This is awesome. First boxer on What’s Your “And”? I’m excited about this, and just to learn about it as well. How did you get started in boxing?

Leslie: Well, I’ve always been a fan of boxing. I’d always wondered what it would be like to box. Because I’m pretty fearless, so I was never worried about, people say, oh, I could never box because you get punched in the face and all the rest of it. That part of it didn’t scare me. I’ve also never been a big, sporty sporty girl. It’s just never been my jam. I mean, I rode horses when I was a kid, and I never was truly in my body. I never felt the strength of my body, and I’ve always been strong. So, I had a friend who had started boxing. I thought, you know what, I think I should try and do this. I was 48 at the time.

John: Oh, wow.

Leslie: I should try this. I call this local boxing gym, and I got really lucky because it just happened to be female-owned, it happened to be very close to my house, and it happened to have the best people on the planet. I went along and did an introductory lesson with a coach named Virgil, who I fell profoundly in love with after the first session.

After one boxing lesson, I went home, and that night, I dreamed about it. I dreamed about it again, and I dreamed about it again. I thought, oh, my God, I think I might be a boxer. That was the beginning of a deep profound love that superseded many, many, many things for years to come. That was the beginning of it. There are crazy stories. I have crazy stories to tell you about where that led and how that impacted me, but that was the beginning of it.

John: Yeah. No, that’s awesome. Is it mostly training or… You’ve gotten in the ring and punched some people.

Leslie: Yeah.

John: It’s not just the training side of it.

Leslie: I don’t want to put anybody off boxing who’s listening, especially women who say, oh my God, I would never want anyone to punch me in the face. You can learn how to box and enjoy the sport 100% without ever getting into the ring or without ever sparring for real. You can fake spar. You can get top sparring.

In boxing, it’s not about how hard you hit someone or how hard they hit you. It’s about whether they can connect with you. Because it’s not about — I mean, yeah, when you’re in the ring and you’re trying to win, you wear somebody down by the impact of your punches, but the points are not scored for how hard you hit somebody. Just the fact that you were able to connect with him, that’s how it works.

Yes, on the higher levels and all the rest of it, you do want to throw snappy punches and wear the other person down because it takes energy to absorb a punch, right. It breaks people’s defenses down, and they try and cover themselves up. It’s a strategic tool, but you don’t have to do that.

I didn’t spar for at least a year and a half, when I was learning, if not, maybe even longer. I learned the technique of boxing, and I fell in love with the strategic aspect of it, the mind-body aspect. It is very philosophical. If you are trained by a great trainer, you get so much more of a deeper understanding of what this is about. It’s really like playing chess with your body.

John: Oh, wow. Yeah.

Leslie: That’s how I see it. It’s every move has a countermove. Everywhere you place your hands or your feet have a reason and a rationale. Everything is there to outsmart your opponent and to anticipate what’s going to happen next. One of the things that — I’m not going to blow it now because you’re going to ask me about things that I learned, which I’ll go into that, but it really taught me so much about the nature of strategy that applies to so much more in life.

When I had been boxing for a year and a half or whatever, my gym actually, they’re the founder of an event called Fight To End Cancer. Every year, they put together a fight team of 10 people who fight each other, so, five opponents, five opponents. You train as an Olympic-style boxer for six months, culminating in fighting at a black tie event with 900 people present.

During that time, you not only train, but you raise money to support Princess Margaret Cancer Hospital, which is one of the premier cancer hospitals in the world. So, after boxing for a year and a half, I thought, why not me? I want this. I put my hand up, and I made the team. I made the fight team. So, I had this experience which was absolutely life-changing.

John: 900 people, that is a lot of people. That’s crazy, and I love how you said it. There’s the philosophy of it as well, and the training. You have to be in mind and body shape, really. People that think they’re in shape, it’s like, well, go train for boxing for, I don’t know, three times and get back to me.

Leslie: Oh, yeah. That was something that I also loved was understanding just what my body was capable of. I never thought that I would be able to develop the kind of strength and stamina required because you don’t just train to box. You have to do a lot of physical training besides that.

When I was training for the fight, I was in the gym, probably three or four hours a day, on top of working, on top of being a parent, on top of running my company and my family and all the rest of it. It’s like when you ask a busy person to do something, and somehow they find a three, four-hour window. You become completely obsessed. I was doing 15, 16 three-minute-rounds on the bag. That was part of my —

John: Oh, my gosh.

Leslie: Yeah, it’s hardcore. It’s hardcore.

John: I don’t know if I could just hold my hands up for three minutes, let alone go punch something for three minutes.

Leslie: Well, it’s not boxing training until you’ve barfed in the railing at least once, and you keep going. That’s how it is.

John: I feel like that should apply to all corporate jobs. It’s not taxes unless you’ve barfed in the office.

Leslie: You go over to the garbage can. You have give a quick heave, and you go back.

John: Right, right. Get back in there. Get back in there.

Leslie: Get back in the ring. You can do it.

John: You have your coach in the corner that squirts water in your mouth. Get back in there. All right.

Leslie: I can remember so vividly when I started training, just regular boxing. I was doing these drills, and I was throwing — my coach, Virge, would say, okay, 10 one-twos. Okay, now 20. Now 30. Now 40. Now 50. Psychologically, you’re saying, okay, all right, I’m going to be able to do 50. It’s going to be great. Then you throw your 50 one-twos after you’ve thrown your 10, 20, 30, 40.

John: Right, and that adds up.

Leslie: I did it. Then you go into 60. Then you start to have a little flutter in your chest to panic. Then it’s 70. Then it’s 80. You go, I know where this is going. I know where this is going. Your brain is saying, I can’t do it, I can’t do it. Now, you can’t say to Virge, “I can’t do it.” so you just keep doing it. Then you get to 100, and you go, “I did it.” Then he goes, back down to one now, and you go from 100 to one.

It’s unfathomable that you’ve left your body. You’re separate from the rest of you. The whole time, as you’re counting down, you’re thinking, oh, my God, I’m doing this. Oh, my God, I’m doing it. Oh, my God. That was the theme of my entire boxing career, was, oh, my God, I’m doing this. I’m doing this. When you take your first good, solid punch in the face and you go, that wasn’t so bad. I’m doing this. I’m doing this.

John: No, I love it. I feel like that’s the whole message of Swagger is I’m doing this. It’s going out on a limb and being like, I’m still alive. I’m still supported, and I’m upright. We’re still doing this, which I think is great.

Leslie: Fighters need the ability to manifest who you really are and hold onto it in the face of all of that psychological crap that’s going to come forward, regardless of situation or environment. Anything that requires courage or that requires strength and that you will not allow to be diminished or weakened by your external environment, that’s what Swagger is. Part of what I had to deal with in that journey, especially that journey to getting into the ring on that night, required me to have such clarity of truth, intention and self-belief. I had to be all in, and I had to be unchanged by my environment. Because, believe me, it’s pretty freaking intimidating to get into the ring in front of people cheering, and you’re putting so much pressure on yourself.

I’m someone who has been on stage. I’ve been on camera. I was a TV host for years. I am not daunted by a crowd, but I have never been so jacked and so focused and so in my body and out of my body at the same time. It was a pretty surreal experience. It really was.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah, because it’s for a good cause, but it’s all the training and all the work that you’ve put into it. I feel like that also allows you to just stand firmly. I’ve done the work. I would imagine it’s hard to get in that ring, you would have a different feeling if that was just out of nowhere, with no training. Hey, just jump in there and do it for charity.

Leslie: That would be foolish, very, very foolish to do. Nobody should — that’s not boxing. That’s called flailing. That’s what you do after you’ve had too many bourbons, and you regret it immediately. You should never go into the ring unless you know what you’re doing, but I tell you, I had a huge — when I was in that moment, standing there, I am — for the record, I’m a highly competitive person. I like to win, win, win, win, win. Winning is good. Not winning, not so good. Although I don’t care if I don’t win, but I want to win. Right?

John: Right.

Leslie: When I was standing in that ring, I wanted to win so badly. It had been my manifestation, my focus. I’m going to win. I’m going to do it. I’m going to do it. I will conquer. I will do this. Defeat is not an option, all of those things. When the pomp and circumstance and the music is playing, mama said knock you out. I’m doing the long walk to the ring. My coach is swinging the towel, and the other coach is rubbing my shoulders. I’m wearing my robe and, and it’s got like a fire dragon on the back of it. It was like a whole thing.

I went into the ring. I’m waiting for my opponent to come and do her walk on and step up. I’m standing in the ring, and people are cheering. My family and friends are there, and there’s people. I was like, oh, my God, this is so amazing. I want to win. I want to win. Holy crap, I’m already in it. I’m already doing it. It doesn’t matter because I have, now, standing here, I have accomplished everything that I set out to do. Whether I win or lose, nothing can be taken from me.

If I make it about winning or losing, then I could potentially give up part of this experience, to a sense of loss, and I’m not going to do that. It’s not happening on my watch. I want all of this experience. So, I didn’t care whether I won or lost. I was so present and still filled with joy. It was the most beautiful thing. As soon as it was over — I didn’t win, by the way. For the record, I just want to state, because I am competitive, she was five inches taller than me and had an almost five-inch reach on me.

John: Oh, wow.

Leslie: Those shorter boxers can still win, not with my level of experience, but, yes, they can, in the real world and stuff. Thank God that I didn’t give anything up to that. Because as soon as it was over and they raised her arm instead of mine, we turned our arms around each other, and we cried. It was so amazing. As soon as it was done, I said to Virge, “I want to do it again. I want to do it again.” My husband said, “No. No. Go box, go do your thing. I support you, 100%, but we are not going through that again. You are not —

John: It’s a six-month thing. It’s not just — yeah, and that’s such a great thing is I think a lot of people don’t realize that they’re in it before they think they’re in it.

Leslie: Yeah, they think the outcome is the thing. The outcome is not — this is not a rehearsal. It’s not the outcome. It’s about being fully freaking present for every step of that journey and not getting distracted by what you think will the outcome be or won’t be the outcome. Because then you’re not able to build the experience into your psyche, into your psychology, into your body. You only have the benefit of retrospect, of hindsight, and you can’t fill in those gaps. You can’t say, “Well, now that it’s over, let me go and sift back through all of this stuff to figure out what was valuable.”

You’ve got to figure out what’s valuable when you’re in it. You’ve got to be able to be in it because that gives you the ability to shift and to change and to pivot and all those things, to make better decisions, to have humility, to have insight, all of those things. You don’t want to do that only in hindsight or retrospect. It’s a waste of so much of your time and energy because it may be too late then. It could be too late.

John: No, that’s exactly it, and that’s what Swagger is, for everybody listening. Are there any tips or tricks or just mindset of just how to bring that swagger to the office or to your life? Because it’s not just at work, it’s swagger all the time.

Leslie: I think our swagger gets the most diminished when we’re at work because there are so many things, so many blockers as I refer to them, that will separate you from the rest of the world. In the book, I talk about the five key swagger blockers. I’m going to give you in two seconds. They are persona, ambition, insecurity, fear and pain. Who we really are, has to navigate and negotiate through those blockers in order to be seen and heard and respected and admired and appreciated by the world.

Each one of those layers, it’s going to take its piece. It’s like running a freaking American Ninja gauntlet. Swim through pain and fly over fear and get a punch of insecurity and navigate through ambition and climb under persona. Each one of those things is going to have to take its toll, and it’s very hard to keep who you are in tact. If you can’t figure out how to navigate and negotiate those blockers, then you will never be fully realized.

So much of who you are, gets left in the ditch kind of thing, your swagger blockers. You have less power. You have less power to create change. You have less power to influence, to innovate, to lead, to be meaningful in this life, to be fully present in this life and to have your truth be heard. Because that’s all any of us want in this life. That’s the secret dream of every human being on the planet is to be fully realized and to say, who I am at my authentic core is good enough. I do not have to pretend to be anything or anyone other than I am, in order to be accepted and appreciated and to make a meaningful impact in this world. That’s all we all want is to be seen and heard for who we are.

John: Yeah, that’s exactly right. I love that so much. You’re right. When we go into work, it’s a shell of ourselves.

Leslie: Yeah.

John: Oftentimes. Maybe at first, it isn’t, but then it just gets beat out of us, like you said. Who we really are ends up in the ditch. Then this automatron version of whatever was ahead of me that I’m mirroring that’s not really me, is what I’m now showing up out at work because I feel like it’s safe and what should be done.

Leslie: Yeah, and it’s the story we tell ourselves. We tell ourselves that it’s better this way, that we’re less open to hurt, that nobody wants to hear our truth, that it’s going to be something that’s going to be rejected and then it’s going to hurt because it’s the real us that gets hurt. We have so many rationales that we tell ourselves in order to stay hidden. If we’re very lucky, at some point in our lives, we go, that’s bull. That’s bull. All I need is courage. That’s all I need.

Because the secret, the big secret is that once you find and unleash your swagger, your life is better. Everything is better. You are more impactful. People gravitate towards you. You become more trustworthy. You become someone who has the power to lead more effectively. You tap into your ability to create change, to innovate, to figure out risks. You become a better parent. You become a better partner. You become a better friend, a better human. All it takes is the courage to take those steps.

Because I come from a training background, you know the book is pragmatic. I’m not about this look deep into your heart.

John: Right?

Leslie: No, no. The struggle is real and concrete, and there are concrete and real ways to move through it like a badass. Anybody can do it. It doesn’t matter if you’re an extrovert or introvert. You don’t get a special card. This whole thing called confidence is not something that the pixies sprinkle upon a few at birth. Who wants confidence? Step forward. Wait, not so fast, John. Step back. It doesn’t work that way. Swagger is available to every freaking human on the planet. You deserve it. You deserve it, and the world deserves to see your swagger, full stop.

John: I love that so much. That’s so awesome. What a great way to start to bring it in for landing because that’s exactly it, for everybody right there, and it’s such a great parallel really to What’s Your “And”? as well. This just goes bigger.

Leslie: What I learned, I used to call them boxing wisdom, one of the key things that I learned was, in boxing, once you throw a punch, you can’t worry about where it’s going to land because it’s too late. It’s thrown already. If you keep thinking where it’s going to land, you have not positioned your body to defend against the next punch. You haven’t moved yourself.

In this life, we worry so much about what we’re putting out into the world. We stay fixated on that, that we’re not preparing ourselves to deal with the challenging stuff that’s going to come our way as a result of throwing those emotional, gentle punches or putting ourselves out there in the world. It’s like throwing little snowballs out and then just watching them melt. There’s no point. Keep throwing snowballs. It’s way more fun than just standing around and watching them melt.

So, part of what I learned was, you need to play out the whole thing in your head and then just take it one punch at a time, one punch at a time, and never fight angry. Never fight angry. You will not win if you fight angry. You have to take on the fights in your life, the struggles, the challenges, with love and intention to contribute to the collective. Because if you’re doing it with resentment or anger or any of those things, it is not going to go well for you because the only person who’s going to lose is you.

John: You’re exactly right. That’s awesome, so many great knowledge bombs throughout this whole thing. That’s awesome, Leslie. Thank you so much. It’s only fair, since I started out the show, peppering you with questions, that now I turn the table very nervously to have the first episode of the Leslie Ehm podcast, everybody. Thanks for having me on as your guest.

Leslie: Okay, John, I have a few for you. You said three to five. I did like eight because I —

John: Okay, I’m all yours. Here we go.

Leslie: Okay. John, what do you find funny?

John: What do I find funny? I think really clever, observational humor, the things that we all see but only that person sees through that lens and then describes to you, like when a comedian describes something that you see every day and then you’re like, oh, my gosh, that is absolutely hilarious. I can’t believe that I never noticed that before. Irony is super funny to me, which is all in the world, especially in the last 12 months. It’s just those things where it’s, is anyone else seeing this? Am I the only one? Like the real world —

Leslie: It’s the truth. It’s the truth.

John: Exactly. It cracks me up every time.

Leslie: What’s your favorite sound, John?

John: I guess my favorite noise would be at a Notre Dame football game. Notre Dame scores a touchdown and then the crowd goes wild, yeah, just that spontaneous cheer of 80,000 people. Yeah, also laughter, laughter is pretty awesome. It’s also a spontaneous thing that I don’t know why it happens.

Leslie: Okay. If you could body swap with anyone for a day, who would it be?

John: Ooh, body swap. Paul Rudd. I feel like I have Paul Rudd’s body already, so I think we’re good on that one. Really, anyone in the NBA so I could just dunk a basketball. I just want to dunk a basketball.

Leslie: What’s your least favorite trait in people?

John: Least favorite trait in people, I think, is self-centeredness, where you’re just oblivious to what is going on outside and leaving the shopping cart in the middle of the grocery store lot. That’s self-centeredness. You’re not using your blinker. What are you doing? Or you just go driving. I turn into a demon when I’m driving because I’m just like, just what are you doing?

Leslie: What’s wrong with you?

John: Yeah, of course. Just, come on in. Why not? I’m right here.

Leslie: Don’t mind my vehicle. Please, insert your vehicle.

John: Exactly. It’s just crazy to me, just people are just so oblivious to what’s around them. I feel like smartphones have made it worse.

Leslie: On escalators, especially the airport, people on escalators on their phone, they get off the escalator, and they stand there on their —

John: Oh, yeah.

Leslie: I think you don’t realize there was a mechanized thing, pushing people into you. Get out of the way. Get out of the way.

John: Or listening to the video out loud. When I fly, I’ll actually get the earbuds in the pack, even though I have my own. Then when somebody is in an airport just watching a video on max volume that we don’t all want to listen to this; here, Happy Birthday early. Here’s some earbuds. I’ll give them to him because I’m like, we don’t want to listen to this.

Leslie: You know that person has their own earbuds. They’re just choosing not to use them.

John: Exactly. That’s the stuff that drives me nuts.

Leslie: What’s your most favorite trait in people?

John: Oh, my most favorite trait in people, I think, is — well, I mean, it’s in all people, I guess, but just people that recognize that we’re all going through something, and they want to help. People want to help.

John: Yeah, that sort of thing.

Leslie: Okay, so it’s the end of the world, but restaurants are still open, fortunately. What are you going to have as your last meal?

John: Oh, last meal. Well, we’ll start with some ice cream just because and then…

Leslie: What flavor of ice cream?

John: I like your chocolate brownie, chocolate chip. That’s always good. Chocolate chip cookie dough is always good, maybe a two scoop of that. I do enjoy the maximum calories coming into my face as possible.

Leslie: Yup, that could be your entree. Or is that going to be your dessert for this meal?

John: The ice cream I’d probably have as an appetizer just because you might as well start good. Then, yeah, probably a New York strip steak and potatoes. I guess I don’t really need vegetables because it’s the last day of the world.

Leslie: Mashed, fried or baked.

John: Oh, there we go. I like them all but, yeah, probably a baked potato, probably, so then you could just load it up.

Leslie: Twice baked with cheese and stuff and all that.

John: Oh, yeah, twice baked. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, loaded up. Same with the ice cream, just maximum calories.

Leslie: I know this is turning into a culinary experience.

John: Right. Maybe, but it’s the last day, so who cares? I don’t need any vegetables. It doesn’t matter.

Leslie: It just expresses how you feel about vegetables. The vegetables are necessary things as opposed to pleasure.

John: Yeah, that’s why they’re not on ice cream. Do you ever notice there’s no dessert with vegetables? There’s no…

Leslie: True that.

John: Yeah, it’s like, oh, well.

Leslie: Wait, carrot cake.

John: Yeah, yeah. It’s more of the carrot flavor, I feel like, than it is carrots. Here’s your broccoli ice cream. No.

Leslie: Said no one.

John: Gross.

Leslie: Ever. Last question, ready? Given the choice of two superpowers, would you rather be able to fly or be invisible?

John: Oh, wow. That’s a good one. Probably invisible.

Leslie: Why?

John: Just because I’m pretty introverted. It’s better if you’re invisible against the wall than they are against the wall. Other people could see. What’s that weird guy doing? We’re all over here talking. Why is he all by himself in the corner?

Leslie: So, it’s about introversion. It’s to make your introversion more convenient.

John: Yeah, exactly. Why become more extroverted when I can just become invisible? That would be great. Those are really good. That hurt my brain a little bit. That was awesome.

Leslie: Thank you.

John: Well, thank you so much Leslie, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This was super, super fun.

Leslie: Oh, it was a pleasure. It’s so much fun to talk about my “and”.

John: Right? Isn’t it? Everyone should.

If everyone wants to see some pictures of Leslie boxing or get the link to pre-order her book, Swagger, which is available right now, or connect with her on social media, please go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 371 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, barnesandnoble.com, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth in the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon, and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. Thank you so much for that.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Herschel Frierson. He’s a partner-elect come April 1st with Crowe in their Indianapolis office, and the chairman of the National Association of Black Accountants, and now he’s with me here today. Herschel, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Herschel: Oh, I am so excited. Thanks for the opportunity, and ready for having a enjoyable conversation.

John: This is going to be so much fun. We chatted before, and we’ll recreate the magic for everyone to hear now. You’re awesome. We have these 17 rapid-fire questions, just to get to know Herschel on a new level here, right out of the gate. I’ll start you with the easy one, favorite color.

Herschel: Red.

John: Red. Okay, all right. How about a least favorite color?

Herschel: Oh, God. I will say yellow.

John: Yellow? Okay. Yeah, that’s fair enough. Yeah, it’s kind of just there.

Herschel: Yeah.

John: How about a favorite actor or actress?

Herschel: Oh, man, actor, I love Denzel.

John: Oh, yeah. Yeah, so good.

John: I really love Denzel. Favorite actress, probably Halle Berry. I’ve always been a big Halle Berry fan, so, yeah, favourite actress.

John: Yeah, totally. Totally. Would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

Herschel: I’m a night owl. I’m a big time night owl, yeah.

John: So much that it almost goes into early bird.

Herschel: Yeah. It’s a hard one to answer. You’re so much of a night owl that it’s really in the morning. I’m 24/7, going. I think from a technical definition, I’m a night owl.

John: Night owl. Yeah, that’s hilarious. That’s super funny. More Star Wars or Star Trek.

Herschel: Star Wars, definitely.

John: Star Wars.

Herschel: Yeah, Star Wars.

John: Me too, same. How about your computer, more PC or a Mac?

Herschel: I will say both.

John: Okay.

Herschel: Yeah, both. From a work perspective, definitely PC, but personal, I will say a Mac. Both have positives on both side, so I will say both.

John: Yeah, asking a tech guy that question is loaded. That’s unfair of me. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Herschel: Strawberry. I love strawberry.

John: Okay.

Herschel: I am a strawberry man to its core.

John: Not the vanilla with the strawberries, it’s strawberry ice cream.

Herschel: I have gotten actual strawberries on strawberry ice cream. I can eat strawberry anything all day long.

John: That’s fantastic. That’s fantastic. This is a tricky one, favorite season, summer, winter, spring or fall.

Herschel: I’ll say summer. I love to get outside, just do things outside, so I will say summer, just windows down, riding around, just feeling good. Wintertime, no, because I don’t like to shovel snow.

John: Right?

Herschel: In the wintertime, there’s too much work.

John: It is too much work. It’s always cold. It’s always trying to — you’ve got more layers. I agree. I agree. How about balance sheet or income statement?

Herschel: Income statement.

John: Okay, there it is. It’s show me the money.

Herschel: Yeah. Where’s the money at? Where’s the money at? Where do we end?

John: There you go. There you go. How about a favorite sports team?

Herschel: Colts, Indianapolis Colts.

John: All right. How about, since the accounting background, favorite number?

Herschel: Three.

John: Three. Is there a reason?

Herschel: Yeah, various reasons. The best things come in threes, so I love the number three. Often, whenever I’m picking out a number, it’s usually the number three.

John: No, I like it. I like it. Here’s a good one, cheeseburger or pizza.

Herschel: Oh, my God. What are you doing? Cheeseburger.

John: Cheeseburger? Okay. All right. That’s a tough one, right?

Herschel: With pizza, I do get Meat Lover’s.

John: Oh, there you go. It’s like a cheeseburger on the pizza.

Herschel: Oh, yeah. If I had to choose, definitely the cheeseburger.

John: All right, all right. My book audio version’s coming out in about a month. Do you like Kindle, real book or audio version?

Herschel: Audio version.

John: Audio. Okay. Yeah, you can speed up the voice to make it —

Herschel: Yeah, audio, definitely audio.

John: There you go. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Herschel: I’m going to be truthful with you. I have never drank in my life.

John: Oh, there you go. All right.

Herschel: I’ve got a natural high, a natural sugar high.

John: Strawberry soda?

Herschel: I feel like a double shot of Sprite on the rocks.

John: There you go. Okay. All right. That works. Last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Herschel: I will say a Tesla.

John: A Tesla, there you go.

Herschel: The favorite thing I own right now is my Tesla.

John: When you’re a kid in gym class, favorite activity from gym class.

Herschel: Dodgeball.

John: Oh, solid. They don’t even let you play anymore, I don’t think.

Herschel: I know, but that was a way for me to get back at the bigger kids. I was quick to dodge it. I was like, yeah, if you mess with me, I’m going to —

John: You learn some much about life.

Herschel: Oh, man, I was a dodgeball fiend.

John: Yeah. One more, Sudoku or crossword puzzle.

Herschel: Crossword puzzle.

John: Crossword? All right. Yeah. Then we went into the last one, what’s your favorite thing you own, which is perfect for, obviously, like in tech, Tesla’s everything in one right there. That’s got to be — I mean, it’s an experience. Yeah?

Herschel: Yeah. I love technology, love innovation, love gadgets. It’s my dream car, number one, but to your point, John, it is. It brings in my passion outside of work, my hobby, I guess you would call it, of just technology and gadgets. I love the innovation around it, love that it can drive itself. I’m always studying up on it. What is going to come down the pipeline next is going to go to my car. I just love gadgets, and the Tesla, to your point, just really encompasses everything. We talked about my favorite season, summer, driving around, summertime, in your car, with the music blaring, I love it.

John: Or getting driven around.

Herschel: Or getting — yeah, driving me around, even better. Right.

John: That’s even better. That’s awesome. Did you grow up — were you always into techie stuff, or was it something you got into later?

Herschel: I think I always was around involving tech. I remember in grade school when the Nintendo first came out.

John: Oh, yeah.

Herschel: I just was like, I gotta have a Nintendo. There was a Sega Genesis, all of that.

John: And then PlayStation, yeah.

Herschel: And then PlayStation and everything. So, over time, over the years, just always had the video games, the technology behind that, just was always fascinating to me. Look where we’re at today, right? Who knew, when the Nintendo came out, where we’d be at today?

John: That’s awesome. I’m not going to brag, but I have the original Nintendo that I got when I was in sixth grade, I think, fifth grade. It’s amazing in surround sound. The gun doesn’t work on the flat screens, but everything else is amazing. It’s just awesome. Now, because of the tech, you can fit 500 games on one cartridge.

Herschel: Yeah. No, it’s just amazing. I remember going to arcades. There was one machine called the Colecovision that I had.

John: Oh, yeah.

Herschel: The Commodore 64. It was all of that, just leveled up.

John: Yeah, that’s super cool. Super cool. Now that you’re an adult, it’s got to be even better because you don’t have to save up your allowance or ask permission. It’s just, I just go get it.

Herschel: Happy wife, happy life but, yeah, still to the day, I get one of the new Xbox Series X. I have that. I have the PlayStation 5 as well. I have both machines.

John: Oh, wow.

Herschel: Like you were saying, I have Macs, I have PCs. I have the Oculus 2, which is the virtual reality. Look, if it comes out, I’m going to buy it. That is my guilty pleasure, and I’m okay with it. The first step is admission. I have admitted.

John: Right, but it’s what lights you up. It goes beyond video games, I know for sure. Obviously, the Tesla, but…

Herschel: The Tesla. I’m sitting here in my man cave. I built out a small theater. I have a small theater, home cinema here in my man cave. I have a Sony 4K projector with 115-inch screen.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Herschel: Yeah.

John: That’s 10 feet almost.

Herschel: Yeah, almost that. I have 11 speakers, two subwoofers. I have my own home theater in my man cave. I like movies as well, but I just love the immersive sound. My wife was like, why do you need 11 speakers? I was like, well, why not? Right?

John: Right? Because we can’t fit 12, that’s why.

Herschel: Yeah. If I can get more, I will put more, yeah. I just enjoy just feeling like I’m immersed in something like a movie. With the big screen, with the speakers, you really feel you’re immersed in the movie. We talked about watching the Star Wars movie. It’s just so much fun, so much fun. I have all the gadgets associated with the home theater, home cinema setup, so it’s lovely.

John: No, that’s awesome, man. The whole man cave, you’re like Iron Man, Batman. I don’t know. You just —

Herschel: Yeah. Well, biggest fights, DC or Marvel, and I always say both. Both. It’s okay to like both. I love playing the Marvel and the DC movies on the big screen with all the the sound immersive around you. It’s great. So, I have my own man cave. I have photographs and memorabilia, just a true man cave. I’m appreciating the opportunity for me to have this.

John: Totally. Do you feel like — I mean, a lot of times, people think of these as hobbies or passions that are just outside of work. They don’t really — do you feel like any of that gives you a skill or somehow impacts your career when you step in the office?

Herschel: Oh, yeah, definitely. I think it’s all about, we, as accountants, consultants, we talk about my little home theater I built, ultimately what I wanted to do was better my experience. How am I going to make it look better? I bought a 4K projector? How am I going to make it bigger? Bought a big screen. How am I going to make it sound like I’m in the movie theaters, at home? I connected 11 speakers and two subwoofers.

That’s kind of translating into work. What are you going to do to better your experience with your client? They’re coming to you. It’s all about, how can I value-add? It’s like what I’m doing at home. What does that value-add, someone coming over to the house or me watching the movies, that value-add, making it that much better? Same thing with work, what am I going to do that’s going to value-add? I’m going to go that extra mile. Instead of putting seven speakers on, go that extra mile and do 11.

John: Right. Right.

Herschel: It’s all about that value-add. You take that from home to work and work to home. They intersect with each other.

John: Yeah, I love that so much, so much because, yeah, that’s what you’re doing. It’s just that mindset, really, that you have outside of work that you also have it at work, and looking at things differently, how can I make it better and a better experience and, like you said, that value-add. It’s not just lip service. It’s for real.

Herschel: It’s got to be a passion. You’ve got to enjoy it. When I am hooking up and doing four, five hours worth of work in my home theater of connecting the speakers and making sure it’s sound right, it’s work, but you’re smiling. It’s the same thing with work. With your work, you hope you — and I found that passion in accounting, of, no matter how many hours you put in and no matter how hard it is, at the end of the day, you’re still smiling. We’re going to have our ups and downs in our career, but at the end of the day, you’re happy.

I can tell young professionals, I’m enjoying what I’m doing, enjoying the opportunity to have these conversations with you, John. Same thing, just at work, I put work in my home theater, my passion, my hobby. Not only at work, with the chairman of the National Association of Black Accountants, doing that volunteer work, you’re putting the work in, but you smile doing it. You don’t mind that extra time because you’re trying to make your profession better. You’re trying to help your clients better. That’s what I gained from my passion and my hobby at home.

John: Yeah, totally. When I talk to people, it’s setting up the home theater, finding a new tech gadget and figuring out how it works or what the new app that’s coming down from Tesla headquarters or whatever. That lights you up every time, 100% of the time. Work sometimes lights you up, but sometimes, let’s be honest, it’s work. If you’re able to talk about those things that always light you up a little bit at work, then that brings some more of the joy for all of who Herschel is, as opposed to just the accounting part of Herschel. So, do you talk about some of these gadgets and all this stuff at work? I’m sure you can’t not.

Herschel: Right. Yeah. Your work life, they’ve become part of your family because you see them so often. I like to just show people what my hobby is, and I like to learn more because it makes for a better team if you get to know who your team is, what makes them tick, what motivates them. I try to listen to those extra things. If I hear someone, like, man, I love donuts; well, you know what I’m going to do? I’m going to bring in donuts one day. If I hear, hey, I really like to golf; I’m like, okay, let’s do a team outing that includes golf.

John: Right.

Herschel: What you hear from the people you work with, it’s important for you to listen to what their passions are, outside of work. Because if you can bring a little bit of that inside of work, it does two things. One, it lets them know you’re listening to them. Two, it just brings a little bit of more joy into their everyday work life. That’s what I ultimately want to do about accounting and bringing a little bit of joy, even from home, into what I do.

John: That’s exactly it because gone are the days where we have to pretend, no, no, work, work is what I love all the time. I wish I could work 24/7. It’s like, no. I’m good at my job, and I like my job. I like the people I work with, but I also like other things, too. That’s totally okay. You don’t have to be shamed into acting like you’re —

Herschel: You’re human. You’re human. You like different things. It’s okay to say, I like badminton. Okay.

John: Yeah. Great.

Herschel: I enjoy learning different things about people. Because if everybody liked basketball, it gets boring. If everybody likes the same thing, looks the same. That’s all about diversity and inclusion. Everybody looking the same, talking the same, liking the same things, there’s no innovation. There’s no creativity. There’s no coming together as a team.

When you have different people have different passions, outside of work, it’s just exciting. It’s exciting for me. I just love to understand how people work, how people operate, outside of work, because at the end of the day, I want to pull that into work to make them a better person, make that team a better person, and hopefully, it reflects on our client.

John: Yeah, exactly. Where did you get this mindset from? Because it clearly wasn’t the way it’s always been done. I had plenty of managers somewhere like you and some, the exact opposite. Was it someone that you learned from before you? Or just, this is how I am, and I’m bringing it to work?

Herschel: I think early on in my career, I was lucky enough to have people surround me. I will say, one of my, what I will say, passions is diversity, equity and inclusion in accounting. I joined the National Association of Black Accountants when I first graduated from Butler and had so many people who mentored me, who taught me how to enjoy life, who taught me how to be successful in my career. I learned it from them. There were some people, volunteered and mentored me and gave up their time, so I’ve been doing the same myself.

Luckily, I’m chairman of the — 27th chairman of the Board of Directors for the National Association of Black Accountants. If I could help bring that passion into accounting like my mentor did for me when I first graduated from college, it’s wonderful. It’s helping individuals find their passion in the accounting and finance profession.

So, I learned it early on, from people who mentored me, and I’m trying to do the same. Just, what can I do to get that passion, that drive out of you? Because you can have that in the accounting and be successful. At the end of the day, I’m trying to be a cheerleader for you, to be a cheerleader for your career.

John: Yeah, and just for you as a whole person. I’m cheerleading your accounting career. I’m also cheerleading your marriage. I’m cheerleading your hobby.

Herschel: Your personal life. I want you to be happy because if you’re, at the end of the day, if you’re happy, then I know I’m going to get the best out of you.

John: Yep, exactly.

Herschel: If you’re not happy at home, that’s going to come to work. Just like, if you’re not happy at work, that’s going to go home.

John: Yep.

Herschel: You don’t want either of those, right? So, whatever I can do, A, to bring happiness to you, no matter how difficult it may be at times, I’m doing part of what I want to do of just increasing the opportunity for you to be a better person, to be a better leader within the organization, within the firm. It’s worth the joy I get at this point in my career. What can I do to bring passion and joy and opportunities for you?

John: Totally, and I feel like the work will get done. We’ll always get the work done. It’s just, the hobbies won’t always get done because those are the first things that we put on the side or the back burner or forget about. Before you know it, you’re 40 years later, and you’re like, I forget what I used to like to do, type of thing.

Herschel: Well, that’s why I encourage people too. I’m like, become a soccer coach, become a baseball coach of little league. There’s an art form of teaching young people. I always say volunteer, find a passion and volunteer. Mine is the National Association of Black Accountants. That’s my passion. I always say, if you can motivate and volunteer, imagine what you can do inside the walls of your company and firm.

John: Oh, yeah.

Herschel: I encourage people, find your passion, find your drive, whether it be the Susan G. Komen, whether it be Boys and Girls Club, whatever your passion is. I will say, I’m always like, hey, we love you at NAPA, but find your passion because it’s going to pay dividends not only for you, personally, but also for your professional career as well.

John: I couldn’t agree more, man, and that’s awesome that you’re not only a living example of it, but verbally encouraging. Because so much of us are in that, we were joking earlier, before we hit record, of the permission-based place. So, if you’re verbally giving permission, you’re not –because so much of us are, like, well, I don’t know if I can or not. Well, Herschel, explicitly said, go do this.

Herschel: Give back. Give back to your community.

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Herschel: Once again, if you really like to be a baseball coach, it does me no good to hinder that passion. It doesn’t. If I can help feed that passion, you’re going to be that much more supportive within the firm. Herschel knows what my passion is, outside of work. I’m going to go that much harder for him, inside of work.

John: That’s exactly it. You genuinely care.

Herschel: I truly do. I truly care. Because, once again, if you’re not happy at home or in your social life, I’m not going to get the best out of you at work. If I can get the best out of you at work, I’m happy to get the best out of you in your passion outside of work. That’s so important.

John: I love it, man. I love it. Do you have any words of encouragement to people listening that have a hobby or a passion that they feel like has nothing to do with their job or no one’s going to care?

Herschel: The first and foremost is, we all have time. So often, we say, I don’t know if I’ve got time to do this. When it comes to mentoring, when I talk about mentoring young people, just mentor one person. I’m not asking you to mentor 10 people. I’m not asking you to spend 80 hours a month. Just mentor one young person. Imagine if we can get 50 people to mentor one person.

John: 50 good people.

Herschel: Right? Because I tell them, you’re going to get so much more out of it than you would think. I just encourage people to, who feel like, yeah, it’s overwhelming to be a coach; well, be an assistant coach. So, I encourage people that, you have the time. I just tell people, you have the time.

The other thing is, be okay with the valleys that come throughout your career and your life. They’re going to come. Be okay with that because the upside will come. The sun will rise the next day. We all know that there are going to be rough times. We’re going through this pandemic and this social injustice. It’s up to each and every one of us to personally make that difference and make it better. That’s what I want to do is, what can I do to make this pandemic better? What can I do with the social injustice? What can I do to bring my passion into the profession? That’s what I just encourage people, is you matter. We all matter. Just spend a little bit of time with your passion and give back, give back to your community.

John: That’s so powerful, so powerful. This has been really, really great, Herschel. I appreciate you being on. It’s only fair, since I rapid-fire questioned you right out of the gate, that I turn the tables and allow you to pepper me with some questions. So, welcome to the first ever episode of the Herschel Frierson podcast. Thanks for having me on, man. I appreciate it. I’m all yours.

Herschel: So, what is your “and”?

John: Oh, my “and”. College football is a huge part of my life, for sure, going to concerts, ice cream. I’m a little bit of a connoisseur, I guess, is what you say if you don’t want to sound like you have a real problem. Actually, when I used to live in Indianapolis, I was in Big Brothers, Big Sisters for about 10 years. You’re right, you learn so much more than whatever you’re teaching to the person that you’re mentoring.

Herschel: What do you think is your biggest regret?

John: My biggest regret. Oh, wow, man. This is an intervention all of a sudden. This is deep. My biggest regret, I guess just probably not writing my book sooner, probably getting in my own way, impostor complex of who am I to have this message that changes the way people think about how they work and their work cultures, and just seeing people reading the book and then the changes that they’re making, and just not doing things sooner. The accountant in me is still very strong.

Herschel: Right.

John: The risk-averse, don’t go out on a limb too much, but that’s not where good stuff happens, isn’t in the middle of the lane. You’ve got to push yourself, and it’s okay to fail. The sun will come out.

Herschel: Oh, yeah. You’re going to learn from it. Right?

John: Yeah, that’s the valley, but the sun comes up.

Herschel: My last question is, you’ve done podcasts, you’re doing great in your career, wrote a book, kudos to you; what is next on your list?

John: Well, thank you, man. Well, it was interview Herschel for What’s Your ”And”? We could check that one off. Next is working more with organizations of how to implement this philosophy. I’ve spoken to, in 2018, 2019, it was 10,000 people in the audiences, and it’s simple but not easy. I find that a lot of people go back to work, and they think about it differently, but how do I do this? What are the steps? It’s different for every place, so it’s really working with them to, how do we build this? How do we increase our lifetime value of our employee? How do we make a better employee experience on purpose?

So many organizations and especially, public accounting, law firms, consulting firms, they don’t really think about that. It’s just like, there’s work to be done. It’s like, yeah, but you can make a better experience for your people. They stay longer. They add more value. Everything’s better. Client service is better. So, it’s really just implementing, helping organizations implement it. It’s rolling my sleeves up and helping you do it, I guess, is the next big step. That works, man. Well, thank you so much.

Herschel: Yeah, this was a great conversation. We should do this again. We need to do a check-in in the next several months and see how each of us are doing, and I appreciate the opportunity.

John: No, I appreciate it. Then you’ll be official partner.

Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Herschel’s gadgets or Herschel outside the work, or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing to the podcast on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.