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Welcome to Episode 453 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And?” on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Robina Bennion. She’s a Soul-Self-Wealth doula, and now she’s with me here today. Robina, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Robina: Thank you, John. I’m super excited to be here.

John: Oh, this is going to be so awesome. We’ve been trading LinkedIn messages and emails for quite a while now, and so I’m excited to have you be a part of this.

Robina: Same.

John: This is going to be so much fun. I do have rapid-fire questions, though. Get to know Robina on a new level here. I’ll start you out with maybe an easy one. I don’t know. Favorite color.

Robina: Teal blue or gold. I do alternate gold. I love gold too.

John: Gold. Yeah, that’s solid. All right. How about a least favorite color?

Robina: Kind of like CalTrans orange. Well, I’m from California, so we have CalTrans, which is like the safety cones, it just doesn’t look good on me.

John: Right. Is Robina dressed as a cone? What is going on? Yeah, that doesn’t look good on anybody. You’re right.

Robina: No. No.

John: How about, oh, speaking of clothes, how about heels or flats?

Robina: Heels are super empowering. I don’t know. There’s something about it. It makes you stand up straighter, but I love being barefoot.

John: Oh, barefoot, so, no shoes. Okay. All right. I like it. That’s a good answer. How about your first concert?

Robina: Garth Brooks.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Robina: Yeah, that’s a big one.

John: Go straight to the top.

Robina: Yeah, that’s a show right there. Well, and I just stopped. There’s nothing better. That’s the only concert I’ve been to.

John: He’s quite a showman. That’s for sure.

Robina: Yeah, back in the day. I won’t say how long ago that was but back in the day, yeah.

John: Just a couple of weeks ago. It’s all good. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw?

Robina: Oh, I love jigsaw. Yeah.

John: Okay. Yeah, yeah. It’s a picture. It’s kind of fun.

Robina: Right?

John: Yeah, totally. How about a TV show you binge-watch?

Robina: Gosh, there’s a few of them. Lately, because of Netflix. I will say, when The Crown comes out, I binge-watch all the way, from one to the end. I just want to see what they come up with. It’s very interesting. I don’t know why I’m so fascinated by it.

John: Well, it’s just a different world, I guess, the royalty and whatever and all that, yeah. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Robina: I’m a PC girl.

John: Yeah, me too, not the girl part but PC.

Robina: I’m a PC human. How’s that?

John: No, no, no, it’s all good. When you said it, I go, me too. Wait, hold on. My bad.

Robina: It’s all good. I don’t know heels or flats, John?

John: Right? Barefoot. Yeah, but one of each, one of each, I think. It seems easy. How about a favorite Disney character?

Robina: Oh. Well, gosh, Disney’s expanded so much these days.

John: Right. There’s a billion.

Robina: Oh, gosh. If I went back old school, I’ll go back to Disney when Disney was Disney for me. I watched Little Mermaid, I don’t know how many times. I went back and listened recently. The music, if you listen to the words, it’s pretty fitting. Yeah, I’ll go with Little Mermaid for right now.

John: Very good. That’s a great answer, great answer. Since you’re PC, on your mouse, are you more right click or left click?

Robina: Well, gosh, I’d say ambidextrous because I’m right-handed, but I will use my mouse and my left hand a lot. I taught myself to do that, so I could be multitasking.

John: You’re clicking both sides on both hands.

Robina: Yeah.

John: Wow.

Robina: Yeah.

John: I couldn’t possibly imagine using a mouse with my left hand. That’s crazy.

Robina: You can train yourself in a day. I wanted a ten-key, so if I can move my mouse and ten-key at the same time, right?

John: Oh, man, you’re just super-efficient. That’s next level. How about pens or pencils?

Robina: Oh, I love pens. When I write, it’s in a pen. Although the auditing tax side of me is all about the pencil.

John: Right. Is it a colored pencil? Is it a regular pencil? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, the accountant in you, balance sheet or income statement?

Robina: Okay, I’ve listened to you ask this. I’m a Libra, so I love the balance. It’s all about how much money you’re making to ensure you’re profit — I don’t get wrapped up in wealth and all of that, but ensuring that you’re profitable and going in and analyzing that, that’s where the problem-solving is. That piece, to me, is a lot more fun. The balance sheet is the reward at the end. That’s like finishing the puzzle, everything falling into place.

John: Yeah, I always say it’s great to know if it’s right or not, because then it balances. The income statement, I might have done it wrong, and I don’t know.

Robina: Right.

John: Yeah, as long as it’s positive. That’s a good point. All right, we’ve got a couple more. Are you more of an early bird or night owl?

Robina: I am both.

John: Okay.

Robina: Yeah, it just depends. I will say I’ve been more of an early bird lately because night owl, it’s hard on your body.

John: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I become tired for the next two days. It’s like old man. Yeah.

Robina: Early bird is where I get all the magic in, the writing or whatever comes to me in the morning.

John: Before everything else starts to get in and filter or clog it up.

Robina: Yes.

John: How about your favorite number?

Robina: Oh, gosh, I’m going to go with 33.

John: Okay. Is there a reason?

Robina: It was a great year. I stayed 33 for about eight years.

John: Oh, right.

Robina: I don’t know. I just love that number. There’s something about it. I love any date that has to do with my birthday. Yeah, and who doesn’t love three?

John: Right, three and then there’s two of them. It’s great. 3,333, but that’s weird. 33 is solid. Yeah. How about books, audio version, e-book or real book.

Robina: Real book.

John: Yeah, I’m similar. Three more. Favorite actor or actress.

Robina: Hugh Jackman. He’s so diverse. I love Greatest Showman, that whole movie, but just the fact that he can be Wolverine and then dancing on a stage is just — I love watching him act. Yeah.

John: Yeah, he’s hogging up all the awesomeness. It’s frustrating but cool to watch. Would you say more chocolate or vanilla?

Robina: I like them together, with a little bit of peanut butter thrown in. I’m more of a salty, I like salt stuff versus sweets.

John: Yeah. Okay. I like it. All right. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Robina: Other than all of my friends, my friends and my family are the most precious things that I have. I don’t own them, but I have. Yeah, I would say I have this teddy bear that my grandma gave all the grandkids a long time ago, and I’ve always cherished it. I keep it with me. When I go out somewhere, my son holds it for me. I’ll take it hiking with me. There’s that energy within it. I don’t know. I just cherish it.

John: No, that’s super cool. I could totally relate to that. That’s awesome.

Robina: Yeah. I live in California. Houses burn down all the time. I probably would grab that and take it with me.

John: Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. That’s really, really cool. Let’s talk about your “and” of, I guess, just art. How did that get started? I’ve seen your stuff. It’s awesome and so diverse and different and colorful. Was it something that you started as a kid or got into later in life? What’s that journey?

Robina: Yeah, it’s definitely later. I grew up with a brother who is very artistic in the way of how I used to think art was. He could replicate anything. He’s amazing when it comes to art. For me, when I got to, probably high school, I did an art class. I remember I got a B on something and then I flunked the color wheel. I just thought I have no artistic ability, but I could draw. If you give me something, I can draw it. So, I just shelved it. Every once in a while, during busy season, I bring out a pencil and just draw something to relax.

When I started my own business, I worked with a company. They’re called Root and River. The way that they do branding is very different, finding out what’s the message you want to share with the world, and they combine the artistic side with it. They would draw my words. It just woke something up inside of me. There is an image that Emily, one of the owners, drew. I was like, I’ve been drawing that since I was 15, randomly. I went and dug out my drawings, and I just, from there, I started painting. I watercolor.

I realized I, after a while, I would meet with people, and I would paint after. I was painting their energy or the energy of the conversation, so it’s just migrated from there. Now it’s getting in tune with my own energy, painting what I’m feeling, and it’s really a freedom. After so many years of public accounting, it, so being structured, to allow myself the freedom to just make, I don’t think they’re mistakes on the canvas, but just to create whatever I want. That’s how it’s evolved.

John: That’s awesome. Plus, then you can take, like you said, the energy from that conversation, and then it’s a way to get it out of you, I guess, because I would harness that and then just have a big black canvas of, rah. I hate that guy, rah. By getting it out, it’s not inside you anymore, and you’re not carrying it around. I’ve seen your pieces. They’re not what I’m talking about at all. It’s a beautiful expression of that, and I think that’s really neat. That’s a cool way to think about it.

Robina: Well, like you said, the filtering, I used to do that. I’d pick up people’s energy all the time, and we do. You read a room, right? You know the energy in the room, if you’re going to stand up and tell some jokes. It’s kind of like filtering that experience onto the canvas, and I would send it to people and say, this was what came through after maybe our session or something. They see themselves in a different light because of that. Because what can feel like a heavy conversation to them, when they see that it’s a bright and vibrant color, I think it transforms the way that they look at that experience.

John: Wow. Yeah, that’s really deep. That’s interesting. Yeah, because then it’s them revisiting that conversation and being like, maybe I didn’t see it the same way that Robina did. You’re able to put a positive spin on it, either way. That’s really cool. Yeah. Do you have some of your pieces that are more of your favorites? Or it’s probably like asking people their favorite child. I’m sure they’re all great, but do you have some that are more your favorites or ones that spoke to you more?

Robina: I know your audience can’t see, but behind me, these are some of the ones that I really love. This one over here is a 13-day process.

John: Oh, wow.

Robina: Yeah, it did not start this way at all. I don’t know. I love them each differently, like you said. For the record, I love both my children equally, just in different ways. Right?

John: Right. Right. It depends on what they just said to me, so maybe one a little bit more right now. No. That is cool because they are all different and unique. Like you said, 13 days, that’s not just sit down, color in the numbers, do whatever and leave. It’s coming back to it. I’m sure, in your mind, you must be playing this out some in your mind, of, should I revisit or not, or what would that look like, sort of thing.

Robina: Right. There are some, I will paint over the canvas. It’s like, okay, I’m done with that one. I’m going to add something new. This one was actually, it was a 21-day painting meditation that I was supposed to be doing. I made it to day 13, and I didn’t want to paint any further. Who knows, one day I may add to it. This one behind me, the other one.

John: Yeah, like a starburst.

Robina: Again, people can’t see.

John: Hurricane starburst sort of a thing, yeah.

Robina: It was just to sit down and do it one shot kind of thing.

John: Yeah, that is cool. I love that freedom to be like, you know what, I’m going to paint over the canvas and start over, or I’m going to come back and add something later. It’s never done done if I don’t want it to be, type of thing. That freedom is pretty liberating, I would imagine.

Robina: It’s just different than how a lot of things that I did in my life, throughout my career. To be able to have this flexibility and say, I can put anything I want on there, and it’s not like every piece of it is an artwork, it’s just freeing. I enjoy the process. Trust me, all of my art is so different. I haven’t really landed on a style yet. I just keep exploring.

John: Well, and like you said, it’s this energy in and what you’re feeling, and then it’s your way to express it onto the canvas, visually. That’s great. You had the public accounting background, and then I know in the intro I said, Soul-Self-Wealth doula. I didn’t want to try and explain that in a million years, but maybe, in your words, because it’s much more than just, obviously, accounting. There’s some depth and dimensions to it.

Robina: Oh, yes. Yeah, I stepped away from public accounting career a few years ago and started on a new path. It started with people saying, “Can you coach me around money?” I wanted to provide them an opportunity to do something different because I didn’t want to be one of those people, I just wrote budgets up for them. That didn’t feel like it was really adding value to anybody’s life. I didn’t want to be hovering over them, we need to spend here, because that’s not healthy either.

I went down this path of, I became a certified money coach which is more about behavioral and looking at your life experiences and how it’s showing up in your relationship with money. In turn, I realized it shows up in many ways. Like the “and” that you talk about, the things that you do with your life, how does it show up for you, personally, as Robina in the world? What about those dreams and things that just feed your soul and however you define soul? Then wealth, money.

For me, the doula part is walking through the journey with people to really rediscover, how do I live my life in alignment with all of those areas that feeds all of me, not just this career-focused CPA Robina, but the fact that I am so much more than a CPA, and a way that sparks joy. It brings just light and life to everything that I’m creating. Often, that is a journey for people to allow things to die away, to honor them and celebrate what they provided them in the journey, to move on from that so that new things can be birthed within them. That just may be birthing a stronger relationship, say, with a spouse around talking about money, or even within your own business.

John: Wow. I am so glad I didn’t try to explain that. You’re right. It’s creating that space and lifting those weights off of you, especially around money. It’s the way we grew up. It’s the way we see. It’s whatever story we tell ourselves that probably isn’t true. It’s great to be able to lift that off of people and then allow them to grow into their own relationship there. Wow, that’s got to be really enriching. That’s so much better than, here’s your budget and stay in these lines or else, type of concept.

Robina: It helps to answer, why don’t I stay within the lines of the budget? Maybe there’s this rebellious side of you that has always, it’s pushed against that, for whatever reason. You discover that, and you find new ways to work through it.

John: Yeah.

Robina: It is very rewarding, I have to say. Just to go on that too, is to bring in the art piece of it now, is just a whole other, it’s the icing on the cake. Because now, when I’m working with people or I’m putting together material, I bring in my art. I’m getting ready to launch a book, not to do a plug, but to play just as an example, is I didn’t want to use anybody else’s art in it. I put my own art into the book, and that, to me, just excites me. It’s really supporting people to come from the left brain and the right brain and support them to tap into that creative side, because that’s what opens up all the possibility.

John: Yeah, that’s awesome. It’s just cool to hear how intertwined they are because they really are, like you said earlier. You can’t take the “and” away from Robina. It’s like asking you to not do art again. You’re like, what, not breathe, how’s that possible, type of thing. They are intertwined. If I’m coming to something, well, I’m bringing the artist with me. I can’t leave that person behind. They’re all here.

Robina: Yeah.

John: That’s super, super cool. How much do you feel like it is on an organization to create that space to find out what people’s “ands” are and celebrate them, versus maybe a small circle amongst your peers, just getting it started from a smaller level?

Robina: I can only speak to the accounting profession.

John: Sure, yeah.

Robina: Because that’s where I spent my life. I think it’s both. I would love to see leadership bring more of this into their organizations because, just like you talk about in your book, people are happier. It creates more conversation. It realizes that we’re more human. We’re not just these computers that we work on each day that spit out numbers. I believe that that builds the teamwork. At the end of the day, if you’re feeling that call within you, create your own group. Those small groups are what really can, I think, I don’t know, enliven your life, make a business better. Then it catches on because then someone else in another office is going to say, “Hey, I heard you’re doing this.” Of course, now that everything’s remote, you could just start a new trend within a company, and you just change it from the inside out.

John: Yeah. No, absolutely. It’s one of those things where I feel like so much of us live in a permission-based mindset where we’re just waiting for permission to do it. I’m like, well, I guarantee you that your leadership has never even thought of this. If you never asked, or just go do it, 99.9% of the time, they’re going to go, wow, that was awesome, do more, and we should have thought of that.

That 0.1% of the time when they slam you for it, well, then maybe you’re not where you should be, type of thing. Is that the environment that you want to be in, with people like that? So many good things come from sharing the human side to you. The more remote we work, the more tech is involved in our job, the more all that, the more human has to — it’s not a teeter-totter where, oh, more tech, less human. No, no. It’s the same. You have to actually ratchet up the human more.

Robina: Right. In the accounting profession, you get review notes all the time, so it almost feels like everything that you’re creating is a mistake.

John: Right.

Robina: It’s never like, oh, great job, Robina, and they put gold stars on your review papers. It’s always like, oh, you missed this work paper reference. Oh, I didn’t refer A1 to X2 or something. Having that communication with my team, at least reflecting back when I was doing that, I was running a lot. Having somebody on my team who also ran, created this exchange, you are like I am. When the review notes came, it didn’t feel like it was just a diagnostic that was coming back to you. It was okay, I know who Robina is, and I’m not going to be so offended by this because now I can hear it in her voice. There’s some relational thing that can happen there, and the person is going to be more willing to come to you and ask questions. What did you mean by this review note?

John: Yeah.

Robina: Because I can get in my mode where I was just getting my job done, and so maybe there wasn’t the expansion there that I needed. That opens the door for someone to feel comfortable, pick up the phone, message me, at least I hope.

John: No, for sure, because it’s almost like a friend pulling you aside and saying, “Look, Robina, I know you can do better,” as opposed to a manager coming down with, you big dumdum head, how did you even pass the exam? There’s no way you know how to add. It’s like, oh, my Lord. That’s how the tone can come across, for sure.

I remember when I was new at PWC, and I was on a project. The manager only talked to me twice, and both times were to tell me what I did wrong. It’s like, well, how about the awesome stuff that I’m doing over here? No comment. You’re like, what the hell, I don’t want to work with you ever again. This is not a pleasant experience. It’s not that I need to be coddled. It’s just that you can have some other dimensions to our relationship here and then it makes it not so critical feedback.

Robina: I will say, the other thing about that is that kind of conversation of like, oh, you dumdum, how did you pass the CPA exam, that became the conversation that I had in my head, the further I went in my career. It’s also, the more I got separated from my “and”, I’d have to go out and find these more intense things to do because my career became more intense. Instead of going and running three miles, I’m out there trying to do an ultra-marathon or something because everybody has time in their life for that when you’re working during busy season.

It was like, the further I went from doing those things that made me happy that were tapping into these own unique gifts that we have, because I can’t just stand up on a stage and crack jokes. That’s our own unique gift. The further I got from that, though, the more that dialogue in my head was, Robina, you’re a dumdum. People are asking how did you pass the CPA exam? This rhetoric, also because it takes me away from interacting with other people and that humaneness. Like we talked about, when you’re the average of the five people, and you’re only hanging out with yourself, that can be a not great place to be in.

John: That is not good. Trust me, everybody. I know that for a fact. You’re right. That is so profound, that the higher you got and the more intense work got and the more removed from your “and” you got, the more you were grasping at just crazy things. Then you’re just burning the candle at 17 “ands” now, which is impossible, but you’re like, each “and” in the middle, why not? Let’s go for it all. It’s just not healthy, and it’s not a sustainable way to live, for sure.

Robina: Just trying to find that energetic balance. If you’re at the extreme of one “and”, then you might go to the extreme of the other just to offset the two, and find that place, whatever you’re doing, whatever your “and” is. For me, it’s just I’ve come to this complete place of calm. I’m not thinking about what I have to do next week or what I did last week. I’m just fully immersed and enjoying what it is that I’m doing in that moment.

John: Yeah, I love it. That’s awesome. Like right now and seeing it. No, but you’re right. That’s exactly it. You’re bringing who you are, all the parts of you, to all the things that you’re doing, and it’s just a much more balanced way to be. That’s awesome. Such great words of encouragement for everyone listening. Just rewind, listen to Robina again, and then do that.

Robina: Maybe not running marathons during busy season.

John: Oh, yeah, not that part.

Robina: I actually don’t recommend that.

John: I actually don’t recommend running at all. No, I’m just kidding.

Robina: Yeah. Now I’m just about hiking. I’m a little bit more calm.

John: I’m just lazy. That’s really what it is.

Robina: You’re just on your peloton watching the scenes go by.

John: Right. Exactly.

Robina: That works.

John: That’s hilarious. I feel like, before we wrap this up, that it’s only fair that I turn the tables since I peppered you with questions at the beginning and would hate to see what that painting looks like. I feel like it’s only fair that we balance this out, first episode of the Robina Bennion podcast. I’m happy to be a guest. What do you got for me?

Robina: All right. Well, welcome to the podcast everyone. Today my host is John Garrett with What’s Your “And”? We have a few questions so you can get to know him. John, going back old school when you were younger, Saturday morning cartoons or Saturday Night Live.

John: Okay, when I was younger, Saturday morning cartoons, Tom and Jerry, Woody Woodpecker, all day long. Then as I got older, it became SNL and Kids in the Hall and In Living Color and all that. Yeah, but when I was younger as a kid, yeah, definitely.

Robina: Because the old school cartoons are way better.

John: They’re so good. They’re so good and just hilarious. They’re always good, always, always.

Robina: Yeah. My kids never appreciate the comment, I made a wrong turn in Albuquerque.

John: Right?

Robina: Yeah.

John: That’s awesome.

Robina: Next question, John. If you had a superpower, what would it be?

John: Oh, wow. It’s probably not considered a superpower, but to be able to sing would be a superpower in my world. I can play instruments. I can hear music well. I can all of that, but when it comes out of my mouth and then hits my ear, it is, yikes. Old women in church turn around. They’re like, look, God still loves you. You don’t have to sing. It’s all good. I’m so bad. I would require a lot of training, I don’t know. Singing, it would just be great to be able to sing and not have everyone be like, hey, you know what, just stop, type of thing.

Robina: Well, at least people did that. My mom just let me sing, and then I look back. I’m like, I didn’t know how to sing at all. Why did she let me stand up in church in front of everybody and sing?

John: Oh, my gosh, maybe she can’t hear either, or tone deaf.

Robina: Maybe.

John: Just sort of like, that sounds beautiful. No, not really. We need 27 kids all together to counterbalance and then a really perfect note comes out.

Robina: Yeah. I think a little bit of Robina, you can’t do anything that you want to do in life. There are limitations within.

John: Yeah, within that, yeah, for sure.

Robina: I have one more question for you, John. A new James Bond movie is coming out. Who’s your favorite bond?

John: Oh, my favorite Bond, yeah, that’s going to be hard. I don’t know. Sean Connery is the classic. Pierce Brosnan maybe, I don’t know because he just seems kind of accountant-y, so maybe I can relate.

Robina: Not your stereotypical accountant.

John: He could be an accountant. Sean Connery, no. The newer guy, no. Yeah, I feel like Pierce Brosnan, I’d probably say that.

Robina: See, I’m a Daniel Craig fan. I don’t know. I think it’s because he’s so against the rules.

John: Yeah, he’s a badass. He’s a total badass. Yeah. No, no, absolutely, which I can appreciate, 100%. Yeah, awesome. This has been so much fun, Robina. Thank you so much for taking time to be a part of What’s Your “And”?

Robina: Thank you, John. It’s been a blast. I’ve really enjoyed it.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Robina outside of work, or maybe some of her art or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 451 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the workplace cultures where they work because of it. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And?” on Audible or wherever you get your audio books.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Dave Skuodas. He’s a watershed manager at Mile High Flood District, and now he’s with me here today. Dave, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Dave: Thank you for having me, John. It’s wonderful to be here. I enjoyed your keynote at our conference a couple of weeks ago, and I just, I’m like, I’ve got to talk to this guy a little more. He seems like a lot of fun.

John: Well, thank you, man. Ditto. Yeah, CASFM, that was so much fun. Engineers, I wanted to grow up and be you guys, and then I got a D in Physics, and it was over.

Dave: Wa-wa-wa. Well, it turns out we are more fun than people give us credit for. I know you started as an accountant, so I’m sure that was just like —

John: Oh, yeah.

Dave: Yes, we are more awesome than people give us credit for.

John: Well, and that’s the thing, is that’s what the whole what’s your “and” is. It’s this whole other side that you unlock from people, and it’s like, man, this is freaking cool. That’s why I’m excited, and yours is going to be no different. I do have some rapid-fire questions, get to know Dave out of the gate here. I’ll start you out with, how about a favorite day of the week?

Dave: Oh, I’ve got to go with Saturday which is, that’s sort of cheating a little bit, but I have an eight-year-old daughter, and I have a ten-month-old puppy. They just kind of pile on my wife and I on Saturday mornings, and it’s just glorious. We don’t have the stress of trying to get everybody out the door, so I love Saturday morning.

John: Just chill and have a slow morning, and that’s perfect.

Dave: Yeah.

John: So nice. So nice. How about when it comes to puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw puzzle?

Dave: Hmm, I would say Sudoku because it sounds and is spelled really close to my last name, but I’ve never gotten into those.

John: It’s all the letters, just jumbled.

Dave: Yeah. Right, right, right. You just mix up those letters, and it’s pretty much my last name. No. I’ve got to go with the crossword because I like the mental challenge. It’s almost like Trivial Pursuit in a way, so I enjoy that.

John: Definitely, because there’s a next level to it of, what’s the answer, and then how do I spell it?

Dave: Right. Right. You’ve got to think with different parts of your brain and then you end up asking somebody for help. You have a group thing which is hard to do with Sudoku.

John: Flip to the back of the airline magazine. Oh, that’s how you spell it. Okay.

Dave: That’s right. That’s right.

John: That’s awesome. How about a favorite color?

Dave: Well, I grew up right outside of Lincoln, Nebraska, so I’ve got to go with Husker red. That just stuck with me. It’s tough to be a Husker fan these days, but I’m still going to go with red.

John: Yeah, and everything there is red. Casual Fridays are wear your Husker, especially in the fall. It might as well be a fan day.

Dave: Exactly. I’ve got to tell you, I was a teenager in the ‘90s.

John: Oh, wow. Yes.

Dave: The Huskers were just dominant through my teenage years. Then in ‘96, I went to school at University of Florida. They won a championship.

John: It’s you. You’re the good luck charm.

Dave: Well, apparently, I was. I don’t know what I was doing back then. I need to re-find the magic because it is gone, baby.

John: Right. It’s gone. That’s funny. How about least favorite color?

Dave: Well, I don’t want to be gross, but I had a really rough night last night. It’s because my ten-month-old puppy had, I don’t know what she ate yesterday, but it didn’t go well last night. We had little digestive reckonings that we had to deal with, so I’ve got to say my least favorite color right now is brown. I will stop with that.

John: Brown is by far, the least popular color that I’m getting on here. It’s pretty universal on that, for sure. Oh, this is a fun one. How about socks or shoes?

Dave: Oh, I have to choose? Well, I have to go with socks because, oddly, when I work from home, there’s a vent right near where my desk sits, and it blows cold air on my feet. I just find that I’ll try to go barefoot, and I’ve got to go with the socks. I love the socks. Shoes just squish your feet in there anyway, so, socks.

John: Yeah, socks are comfortable. You don’t even know you’re wearing them, half the time. Yeah, exactly. There you go. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Dave: I’ve got to go with Oscar Isaac. Maybe it’s because he’s got the dark features like I do, but I think it’s probably more so that he is really multi-talented. He can sing, and he can play guitar. Then he got to be the hotshot X-wing pilot in Star Wars. I mean, sign me up. Yeah, definitely Oscar Isaac.

John: There you go. How about chocolate or vanilla?

Dave: Chocolate all the way. Chocolate all the way but mix in a little coffee flavor or peanut butter, and we are set.

John: Okay, a little extra zing. There you go. I think I know this one, Star Wars or Star Trek.

Dave: Got to go with Star Wars. I was five years old when Return of the Jedi came out, and I think my mom was obsessed with it. She took me to see it in the theater, about ten or 15 times, so it’s kind of imprinted into my DNA.

John: Right, the full script. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Dave: PC, just out of necessity, so I can actually interact with my coworkers. Yeah, that’s just a default. I could go rogue and try to say, no, I’m going to do a Mac. I don’t care what you guys say. Then something wouldn’t work, and it would be my fault.

John: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. How about favorite ice cream flavor?

Dave: Yeah, going back to the chocolate, chocolate with — actually, no, I’ve got to go coffee chocolate chip.

John: Oh, chocolate chip. Okay.

Dave: Got to inverse the proportions there.

John: Yeah, coffee is the first word there. That’s good. Yeah, yeah. How about a favorite Disney character? There’s a billion now, I think.

Dave: Yeah, I could go with Marvel or Star Wars, but I’m going to say Dory just because the way they wrote her character with how forgetful she was and then Ellen DeGeneres’ voice, it was just so incredibly clever. I’ve got to go with Dory. She just cracks me up.

John: No, that totally works. How about are you more talk or text?

Dave: It’s got to be text. Talking on the phone, for some reason, it’s just exhausting. I don’t know why. Text, it makes people be concise because you can only go so fast with your thumb, so it makes people be to the point.

John: To the point. Yeah, yeah. Okay. How about your first concert?

Dave: It was Stone Temple Pilots.

John: Nice.

Dave: Teenager in the ‘90s, yeah, I think it was their Vaseline or their Purple album with the song Vaseline. Oh, yeah.

John: No, they were so good, man. That’s awesome. I wasn’t sure. Maybe that or 311, being a Nebraska guy.

Dave: They were in there pretty early but, yeah, totally the Pilots.

John: They probably opened for them.

Dave: Yeah.

John: How about — we’ve got four more — how about a favorite number?

Dave: I’m going to go with 32. It is because, two things. Magic Johnson was my childhood idol, and that was his number. It also was my wife’s basketball number. We play roulette, we always play 32. That’s the one.

John: There you go. There you go. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Dave: These days, I’ve got to go e-book because I like to highlight things and then cut and paste and make my own sort of CliffsNotes, which is harder to do with the physical book. I’m driving less now, so it’s harder to find time to listen to the audio books.

John: Right, right. Yeah, it is hard to cut and paste from a real book. You’re like, just cut it out. What is going on?

Dave: It’s more literal. Yeah.

John: That’s funny. All right, since you’ve got the engineer, and I played one for a semester in college, bridges or skyscrapers, going sideways or vertical. I don’t know.

Dave: Well, I’ve got to go with bridges because you need those to pass the water, and that’s my line of work. I’m going to have to go with bridges.

John: I figured so, but you never know. You never know. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Dave: I’ve got to go with my drone. That thing brings me joy. It brings me joy.

John: Right, which leads perfectly right into your “and”, photography, videography. How did you get started with that? Is it something you were doing as a kid, or did you get into it later?

Dave: No, it happened organically, and it’s because the kind of work I do. It really overlapped with my work in a happy way, but it developed organically. Because when I first started my job that I’m in right now, it was 2010, and I started with this crappy old Blackberry. Eventually, when I migrated to an iPhone, I found that these stream restoration and flood control projects that I find myself on, they happened to be pretty photogenic because I’m out in nature. When we do our job really well, we get to build infrastructure that looks like nature, and it’s fun to photograph.

I started developing this library of really great iPhone photos, and I started using them in presentations. I created a really good library, and then other people started using them. They really liked my stuff, and it grew from there. Eventually, when we had our daughter, the first few years, we would pay photographers to do her yearly portraits. That’s not cheap, right? By the time she was five, I asked my wife, I was like, you know, honey, I think I can do this. Instead of paying a photographer, could we instead use the money that I could buy like a decent DSLR? She’s like, sure.

John: There you go.

Dave: Then the photography started getting a little more sophisticated and all of that, and it just grew from there. I really just enjoyed photographing the work that we do, and it’s been neat to see people really start to relate me as being a good photographer and having a great library of stuff. People just —

John: That’s awesome.

Dave: — started using it. Yeah.

John: It’s so encouraging too, that it’s like, oh, it’s good. People enjoy it. It doesn’t have to be hanging in a museum, but it’s like, yeah, alright. You did it because you enjoyed it. The accidental byproduct is, oh, wow, people like it. Cool. That encourages me more.

Dave: Right, and it turns out, we need to show off our work sometimes, whether it’s an annual report or presentations or talking to our Board, and so people just started mining my library for stuff. That’s been really cool.

John: Yeah. Then you took it to a next level because I’ve seen on LinkedIn, some of your videos of some of the watershed projects that you’ve done. The drone is just like, this is awesome. This is so great.

Dave: Yeah. Well, the videography, that, I will say it started, I was at a conference several years back. There was another guy who works at the City of Denver, and they had bought a drone. They were flying it for different purposes, work-related purposes, and then the guy was giving a presentation about the ways they were finding this really useful. The videography part was, when he gave his presentation, he did this send up of combining footage of their drone and interspersing it with the helicopter raid scene from Apocalypse Now where it’s like the Ride of the Valkyries. It was hilarious.

I was in the audience, and it was almost like I was given permission. I was like, I didn’t know we could do videos with our presentations. That was amazing. I want to do that. How do I do that? I present very regularly. I had this talk where I was going to talk about this thing called roughness value which is how much stuff is in the way of the water that wants to flow along a river, and there’s this coefficient called roughness. I was going to talk about that. I decided to, at the end of it, do a spoof of my own talk but in the style of those direct TV commercials. When your cable company keeps you on hold, you get angry. Eventually, it just gets worse and worse. There’s this one where the guy ends up in a roadside ditch, and it’s like, don’t end up in a roadside ditch.

John: Yeah. Oh, totally. Yeah, for something so simple and mundane, and all of a sudden, you’re going to be in a ditch. You did a spoof of that.

Dave: Yeah. Well, I was doing a spoof of it, but it was just with still photos on my PowerPoint. I showed my boss, and it stopped just short of the roadside ditch thing. She thought it was really funny. At the end, she goes, I thought you were going to end up in the roadside ditch.

John: Yes.

Dave: I looked at her. I was like, I should end up in the roadside ditch.

John: Right?

Dave: Yeah. Then I got some coworkers to basically recreate that TV commercial, which basically means they had to chase me like a group of bandits, and I had to end up in a roadside ditch.

John: That’s so good. It’s so engaging, and it’s fun to do. People want to watch that stuff.

Dave: Right. Then I did this at the conference, and people just found it hilarious. The downside was, in subsequent years of that same conference, they were expecting me to do this again. I had to do sequels.

John: That’d be great. One year, you actually start in the ditch, and then it’s like, let’s pick up where we left off, type of thing.

Dave: That’s great. I should do that. I should do that. Whatever happened to Dave in the ditch? Where did he end up?

John: He’s still there from four years ago? You’ve got this giant Santa beard.

Dave: Yeah, that’s great.

John: Thanks for coming, everybody.

Dave: There’s a pandemic? What happened?

John: Right. I’ve been in this ditch. It’s cool to see that you’re using the photography for other things as well, not just the work, which is cool, too.

Dave: Yeah, yeah. Some of those things, once I think of something funny like that, I have a hard time resisting bringing it into the world. Maybe becoming known for the video, the funny video guy, I don’t want to be the clown of the industry, but it’s given me some recognition, that’s for sure.

John: Yeah. It’s not a bad thing. At least you’re known as something. You do know what you’re doing, and you’re good at what you do, so why not spruce it up a little bit. Do you have something that you’ve shot, whether it’s photography or videography, whether it’s work-related or not, that’s been some of your more favorite things, besides the ditch video?

Dave: Yeah, the ditch video.

John: Awesome. I love it. Well, I’d have to say my piece de resistance with the videography at least, was there was this one year when we were renovating the office. We were going to have to get out, half at a time, and go to this temporary office down the hall. They were going to renovate half and then move that half back and then move the other half into the temporary space and did this sort of thing. In the first half of people they moved out, they found asbestos, and so they decided all of a sudden, everybody has to get out.

John: Oh, my goodness, yeah.

Dave: This is like a 50-person office, and we all just have to, within a week, move out. Well, they didn’t have space in the temporary office down the hall, so the other half of us had to go in the basement next to a loading dock and next to the men’s restroom. I had to document this experience. You’d end up with this big disparity in experience with the people upstairs who had windows, and the rest of us are downstairs.

John: The Help type of thing or like a Downton Abbey sort of thing.

Dave: Yeah, there are eight of us in a room together. It’s just weird. I just went around and filmed everybody, asking them how this was. Eventually, I had such great material that I added a little bit of scripted material that I got some people, even the head dude, the executive director, he was on board.

John: That’s great.

Dave: I scripted a little bit to turn it into a five-minute episode of The Office.

John: Yes, yes.

Dave: That was my piece de resistance, and I just haven’t been able to top it since.

John: Yeah, that’s super awesome. It’s fun, and it’s bringing your passion for this, to work, so then that makes work more enjoyable. Work’s fine, but sometimes work’s not. To bring this enthusiasm that I have for photography and videography, to work, then, man, work is awesome now. This is so much fun. That sounds great.

Dave: Yeah. I made a little time capsule too. We can look back at it and like, remember when we were down by the loading dock? Then we can play the video.

John: We all thought we were getting fired. They were just stepping us out, one step at a time. Just, well, since you’re here, might as well just go. We’re just keeping this top office.

Dave: One of the funniest things with that is when we have new staff that didn’t go through that experience and doesn’t know about that video, and then they may come across it at some point, they’re like, what is this?

John: That’s great.

Dave: Yeah, we had this funny experience. Yeah. Anyway.

John: There was a time when things were weird. Things are weird now, but they were less weird then. No, that’s really cool. Was there ever a time when you thought, should I share this, or are people going to care? I guess it was veiled in the work-related pictures and videos, so you were able to easily bring it in. Was there ever a part where you’re like, are people going to care?

Dave: I think it’s more so, are people going to be bothered that I’m commingling work and fun a little bit? Because you’ll get some people who are fuddy-duddies about stuff, and maybe it’s that they just don’t want to be on camera. That’s okay. Some people are just like that. I did have a person, one time, say, “Oh, are you spending taxpayer dollars on that stuff?” I’m like, well, I don’t sit at my desk during work and edit or anything, but occasionally I might film something during the day. I was just like, man, that’s a buzzkill type of thought.

John: Right. Because now you’re doing it. Yeah. We’re getting the work done.

Dave: Yeah. We’re human beings, and we’re allowed to bring some joy and fun into the day. It’s not like we’re robots sitting there, chained to our desks.

John: Right. I love that you said that it’s like commingling work and fun, as if work should be completely separate from fun. It’s like, no, no, they should totally, why not? You’re at work, more waking hours than your family.

Dave: Exactly.

John: Why would I not enjoy it? It doesn’t have to be punishment. Why shouldn’t you enjoy it? Be productive, be good at what you do, but some joy goes a long way. Kudos to you, I’m just saying. Those grumpy Muppet old guys in the balcony. I had a guy once told me, and it’s probably because I called him out for being wrong on something pretty severe, but his clap back to me was, well, why don’t you just go do comedy? That’s all you want to do anyway. Whoa, whoa. What I do after I leave, that doesn’t make me bad at my, like, wait, what? I was like, you’re just angry right now that I totally called you out.

Dave: That says more about you than me, buddy, that you would go there.

John: No, it totally does. It totally does. It’s cool to hear that your manager’s like, let’s kick this up a notch, have you in the ditch. People are embracing this. How much do you feel like it’s on the organization to create that space for people to share their “ands” and shine a light on it? Or how much is it on the individual, maybe like you, to just not ask permission, but just go do it and start a little small circle amongst themselves?

Dave: Yeah, I think there’s a balance. If you want to have a good culture, you have to allow for the sources of joy and fun to come from different places, as long as there’s balance with people getting their work done. For me, what this has evolved to, I didn’t just start there. It grew into this tree that’s there now. Now, people actually come to me to help. When we need to do videos for work, official things that aren’t just like me doing funny stuff, they loop me in, and I help do that. That’s definitely not my job description. I didn’t start there. I had to feel my way through and then show my wares, if you will, and build my skills in this “and” because I was building that in a way that really overlapped with work quite a bit. It’s been fun. It’s been fun.

John: Outside of work, too. Yeah, that’s the hard part, is you see the Steven Spielberg ET. You don’t see his student films. You were growing in that and, and I love that, how there’s expertise beyond your Engineering degree that you’re able to now bring to the office that other people might have the same degree you have, and certifications, but they don’t have this expertise. They have expertise that you don’t have. It’s like, we should be able to share that. It makes you better at your job. That’s super cool to hear that I’m not just like a crazy person living in a bubble. It’s like, no, no, for real, people have expertise from these “ands”.

Dave: You’re not crazy, John. I hope that makes you feel better.

John: Right, right. Says the other crazy guy. No, I’m just teasing. That’s so perfect, and I love it. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe feels like, I’ve got this outside-of-work passion, but no one’s going to care, it has nothing to do with my job?

Dave: Well, I think I learned a lot along these lines from my daughter who’s in elementary school. You walk through any elementary school, and everybody is an artist, right? I think somewhere, as we become adults, we lose that. For some people, their art as cooking. My art when I was, I’m in my 40s now, but when I was younger, my artistic expression was more about athletics. I was a big basketball player. That was before I got into these other things. I think it’s healthy for everybody to have some form of expression that they find. I think it’s a healthy, well-rounded thing to access different parts of your brain, and I encourage everybody to find what that is for them. Whether that bleeds into their workplace in a really direct way, like me, or not is irrelevant. I think it’s just the healthy thing, to have a creative outlet.

John: Exactly. It doesn’t have to be direct, like you said. You could just talk about it indirectly.

Dave: Yeah.

John: Yeah. I’m not up, telling jokes in front of everybody. Here, here’s my new bit. No. It’s just people ask about what you do, and that’s a cool thing. That’s awesome, man. It’s baby steps for a lot of people and then see where it goes. Well, this has been so much fun, Dave. I feel like, since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, that I should turn the tables and make this the Dave Skuodas podcast. I’m all yours. Whatever you got, man, fire away. I’m all yours.

Dave: Yeah, it’s just what I’ve always wanted. This is great. I have done some keynote-speaking, and I’ve done some emceeing. I know that you get to do that. You get paid to do that, and I admire that so much. How did you get to where people will give you money to do that?

John: Well, it started with, and even crazier, people gave me money to do comedy, to make them laugh. Yeah, that’s really how I got started. That was my “and” when I worked at PricewaterhouseCoopers. Even in industry and the corporate jobs that I had, I was doing stand-up at night, similar to you, building that skill set. Then in May of 2005, that was my best deal day, my, I’m out. Who’s with me? No one. No one. Just me. Okay, cool. It was kind of a perfect storm but, yeah, gave it a go. I just learned the stage presence and all that from doing stand-up over 2,000 times, onstage. That’s definitely just a lot of reps.

I think, for regular people that aren’t as sick and twisted as I am and want to make life hard, a good way would be just to practice getting up in front of a small team meeting. Toastmasters is okay for if you’re nervous in front of people. I don’t personally like the toastmasters’ structure of things. I like it to be a little more organic and fluid as opposed to, it was a dark and stormy night. It’s like, whoa, hold on. I need to hear words from your face for a minute, so I can calibrate what’s happening before the train takes off.

The National Speakers Association is a great way, if you’re good at speaking, to make it a business. That’s a great way to meet some others that are doing the same thing. Then you start small with breakout sessions at conferences in your industry. What do I have to offer? What do I have to say that’s unique? That’s the difference between the breakout session speaker. That’s something that maybe people can Google, or it’s a little bit, oh, okay. It’s not really mind-changing. It’s more of like, okay, cool, I learned something.

The keynote is something that you can’t really Google. That’s when it becomes, setting the tone for the whole day or for the whole conference, and something that’s a little more unique, a little more of your own IP, a little more of your own flavor. You take that experience, but then you take this to another level. Where the audience also wants to go, is also a big thing because it’s, how does it apply to them, and you can do it too, type of thing.

Dave: You have to have a shtick, but then it has to be broad enough to apply to different types of audiences?

John: Or specific enough to apply really deeply within the engineering community. It’s like, in this day and age, you don’t need to be famous. You just need 100 raving fans and then you’re famous. There are tons of people that have never heard of Brian Regan, and he’s an amazing stand-up comedian. Then there are people that will travel to go see him do shows. It’s really just, what can I offer from my experience that will help other people shorten their route? Here’s a shortcut to make your life better, type of a thing. I don’t know if that helped you at all or if that — in a typical keynote fashion, I took as much time as possible to answer.

Dave: Well, I’ve seen Brian Regan in person, and he’s amazing. His Me Monster bit is just one of the funniest things I’ve ever seen.

John: Oh, yeah. Oh, so many, so many. He’s also a really, really nice guy, which is awesome.

Dave: Well, that’s great. That’s great. What, with having a career like you’ve developed for yourself where you get to be paid to do keynotes and doing emceeing, I don’t know if you still do comedy or not, but what’s the downside to it that people might be surprised? Because I’m sure it’s not all sunshine and rainbows. There’s got to be something that isn’t awesome about it.

John: Well, yeah, I don’t do the comedy clubs anymore. What’s not awesome about it is when 2020 happens, and then we have to go virtual. You’re doing a virtual keynote or something, and then it’s over. The screen just goes black. You’re like, I don’t know, was that good? I don’t know. How was that? I’m not sure. The chat was blowing up, so I think so. In-person is so much better because then you can deviate a little bit because you can feel off the crowd, because you’ve done it enough to know what’s going well, what’s not. Afterwards, you can talk to people, and you can see their reactions. You can know how it landed or what have you. That’s probably the hardest part.

Also too, it’s having to get 30 jobs. Imagine trying to get a new job and how not easy that is. You have to get one every two weeks or whatever. It’s just a lot of rejection. It’s just a lot of rejection. It’s a lot of people don’t email you back. It’s a lot of no. It’s like, all right. You really have to separate you as a person from you as a keynote speaker. They’re saying no to the keynote speaker or no to the message this year, but maybe it’ll play next year or the year after or the year after that. That’s the hard part is not taking it personally, but having done stand-up so long, I don’t care anymore.

Dave: Your skin is like inches thick. Oh, whatever.

John: Yeah. It’s hollow on the inside. It’s like, oh, okay.

Dave: I have experienced far worse than —

John: Exactly.

Dave: Email version of no. Yeah. I can relate to the virtual world is much less satisfying as a speaker because one of the benefits of doing something funny in a presentation is you get to hear people laugh. Otherwise, you can have great stuff, and people are nodding. It’s really connecting, but you don’t get any of that energy back as the speaker. I definitely miss that because you almost feel like a radio DJ sometimes, just talking into the blackness.

John: I don’t even know if anyone’s listening. Or when you watch a Netflix special or an Amazon comedy special, you don’t laugh out loud as much as you would if you were in the audience, in person, because you’re removed. We’ve got the screen, and it’s like, oh. It’s not a shared experience, and that’s really what I thrive off of and what I help create for groups. Virtually, I think I do a pretty good job at creating that, like I did for CASFM, but it’s just different. Yeah, so that’s definitely not fun, but sometimes you’ve got to do stuff that.

Dave: You’ve got to pay the bills.

John: Right, exactly. That’s the other part, when it’s fun to do but then when it becomes your job, then it becomes not maybe as — you’d still have to have another “and” then to fill that.

Dave: Yeah. Some work is work.

John: Yeah, exactly. Well, thanks so much, Dave, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This has been so much fun. I can’t wait to see more of your videos that you put out there.

Dave: Appreciate it, John. It’s been fun. Thanks for having me.

John: Everybody, if you want to see some of those pictures or videos that Dave puts out, or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 449 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And?” on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week, closing out 2021, is no different with my guest, Lei Testa. She’s the managing partner at Averett Financial in Fort Worth, Texas, and now she’s with me here today. Lei, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Lei: Thank you, John. I can’t tell you how excited I am to be here. I have wanted to do this since you and I met, and I found out you had a podcast. Thanks for having me.

John: Absolutely. This is going to be so much fun. Yeah, we met a couple of years ago when I spoke at a conference and then just stayed in touch and then here we are. This is going to be so much fun. I do have some rapid-fire questions, things I’ve never asked you before, and I probably should have when we first met, now that I think about it.

Lei: That might have been good to know.

John: Right? Here we go. Here we go. This is a good one. Favorite color.

Lei: Red.

John: Red. Okay. How about a least favorite color?

Lei: Brown.

John: Brown. Yeah, that’s a very unpopular color.

Lei: It is. Every now and then I’ll see a brown car, and I say, why?

John: Was it on sale? Did you steal it? Why do you have a brown car?

Lei: There’s a new color out now that’s like flat gray. It’s even worse.

John: Yeah, I have seen a lot of the flat colors lately.

Lei: Yeah.

John: How about more heels or flats?

Lei: Heels used to be, flats now. Just older. Yeah, but I love heels. If I could go back, I would.

John: Okay. Okay. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Lei: Favorite actress, Katharine Hepburn. Favorite actor, Gene Hackman.

John: Oh, yeah.

Lei: Followed closely by Tom Hanks.

John: Okay. No, great answer, answers, plural actually. Ooh, this is a tricky one. Chocolate or vanilla.

Lei: Chocolate.

John: Oh, yeah. You didn’t even think. You actually interrupted. Chocolate or chocolate. It’s chocolate. Whatever the order is, I don’t care. Chocolate or a billion dollars. Chocolate. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw.

Lei: Jigsaw.

John: Oh, nice. Okay. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Lei: Oh, yes. I can’t pick. I cannot pick. My dad and I watched Star Trek when I was a kid back when it was James Kirk. I love even the next gen Star Trek. Then Star Wars was when I was in high school. I love Star Wars.

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Lei: Anyway.

John: Okay, I’ll give you both.

Lei: It’s hard to differentiate from — yeah, to choose, choose.

John: How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Lei: PC.

John: PC. Yeah, me too.

Lei: I own a Mac at home, and I like Apple products. At work, you have to know how to use a PC.

John: Yeah, definitely. How about a favorite Disney character?

Lei: Oh, gosh. Oh, Cruella, the new Cruella. Have you seen it?

John: I have. I saw it on a flight recently.

Lei: Fantastic movie. I did too. Then I came home and made Frank watch it because it’s the backstory. Like Wicked is the backstory for the Wizard of Oz, Cruella is the backstory for 101 Dalmatians.

John: Exactly. You think it’s this evil person. Yeah, Cruella, that’s very good answer. Very good answer. How about more pens or pencils?

Lei: Oh, pens.

John: Pens. Yeah, same.

Lei: Especially fancy pens that you can do fun stuff with.

John: Right, right. Since you have the accounting background, balance sheet or income statement.

Lei: Balance sheet.

John: Oh, okay.

Lei: Yeah, I’m an auditor, and I’m an old school auditor. You audit the balance sheet, and the income statement falls out. I like the balance sheet. It’s tangible. You could put your hands on it.

John: Right? There it is. Okay. How about more of an early bird or a night owl?

Lei: Early bird.

John: Oh, yeah. All right.

Lei: Before, a night owl, but definitely an early bird.

John: Oh, before, a night owl. That’s hilarious. How about a favorite number?

Lei: 137.

John: Oh. Is there a reason?

Lei: It’s my name upside down. L-E-I —

John: Oh, you’re right. It is. Holy cow.

Lei: — is 137. I was playing basketball in high school, and we had a free throw. I was standing in the back court, and I could see the scoreboard. There was a minute 37 left in the quarter. I went, that’s my name.

John: That’s great. That’s so good. I love it. That’s so awesome. That’s so awesome. That’s the best reason I’ve ever heard for a favorite number, for sure.

Lei: Really? Oh, my gosh. Okay, we’re done.

John: It’s my birthday or… Nope, it’s my name upside down. Nailed it. That’s so good.

Lei: Bill could be 8177. You turn that upside down, it says Bill.

John: Right. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Lei: Audio version.

John: Oh, okay.

Lei: I’ve actually listened to your book three times.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Lei: Yeah. Just because I love the concepts, and I love that it’s you reading it. I love when authors read their own books. It’s great.

John: Thank you. Yeah, that was hard, harder than you think, especially when I wrote the book. It’s like, these are my words. It should be… Yeah. Well, cool. Thank you. All right. How about your first concert?

Lei: Foreigner.

John: Nice.

Lei: Yeah.

John: Okay.

Lei: Foreigner was my first big concert. I went to a concert with my parents, but I don’t really count that one. That was Barbara Mandrell and the Statler Brothers.

John: I think that’s how you have to say it actually.

Lei: It is. It is. That is how you have to say it. Then my first one that I went by myself was Foreigner.

John: Nice. Okay. All right. We’ve got two more. How about your favorite ice cream flavor?

Lei: Moo-llennium Crunch by Blue Bell.

John: Good.

Lei: Have you ever heard of it?

John: I have absolutely. Blue Bell Ice Cream is so good.

Lei: Yeah, it is.

John: The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Lei: My car. My Corvette. I love it. It makes me smile. Every time I go outside and see it and get in it and drive it. It’s wonderful.

John: That’s awesome. What color is it?

Lei: It’s white.

John: Okay.

Lei: It’s my very first non-red, purchased by myself vehicle. I share cars with my husband that he bought, and I love it. My last Corvette was red. This year’s model, it’s a 2014, which seems so old now, but it’s still a great car. The red that they had, I just didn’t like that color red. I saw the white one and just really liked it.

John: That’s so cool. That actually dovetails perfectly right in with your “ands”, obviously Corvettes being one of them, but also knitting, which is awesome. I’m not sure if I’ve had a knitter on the show yet, to be honest.

Lei: I’m the first knitter. Oh, my God.

John: Yeah. I’ve had all kinds of other crafters, but not knitting as the lead, for sure. How did you get started knitting? Was it something, as a kid, you did?

Lei: Yeah, it was as a kid. My grandmothers on both sides, mom side and dad side, both did handiwork, sewing, crochet, knitting, embroidery, all the things. One of them taught me to sew and embroider, and the other taught me to crochet and then knit. Growing up, I’ve knit things but little kid things, like the scarf. I graduated to a hat. I remember doing a ton of potholders. Remember those little things that your grandmother used to crochet on the end of a towel so you could loop it through a door? I probably made 100 of those things.

John: Okay.

Lei: When I was in high school, we moved, and our next-door neighbor was a prolific knitter. She knit garments. I never really thought about knitting something you could wear.

John: Yeah, beyond a hat or whatever, scarf.

Lei: Right, or a scarf. Yeah, but a sweater, a jacket, yeah, something substantial. I said, would you teach me how to knit a sweater? She said, sure, but we are not going to Walmart to buy the yarn. We have to go to the real yarn store, so save up your money. I did. I saved up my pennies, and we trucked over to Memphis. I grew up in Arkansas. We went to the big city. We went to Memphis, to the real yarn shop, and I bought real yarn. I picked out a super hard pattern. She said, okay, if you want to try it, you can do it. By doggies, I did. I made that sweater, and I still have that sweater today.

John: That’s awesome. I was going to say you should because that’s a lot of work that you put into that.

Lei: It was, absolutely.

John: It was a pattern. It wasn’t just a solid color. Wow.

Lei: Yeah. It was a pattern, and the pattern that I chose — a lot of sweaters, you knit in one piece. You knit from the top down or the bottom up. This, you made the pieces. I made a front and a back and two sleeves, and I had to put them together like you would sew a garment together.

John: Wow.

Lei: I made a mistake. It had cables. I don’t know if you know what cables are.

John: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Lei: Actually, I’ll give you a picture to put on with this episode.

John: Yeah, on the show page at whatsyourand.com.

Lei: There’s a mistake. I did not see the mistake until I was ready to put the thing together. I was like, I just give up. I quit. I quit. I don’t want to do it. She told me this story. Her name is Gay Bonner. She’s still a really good friend. She said, stop. There’s no reason to lose your marbles over this. She told me that she had heard that women, and probably men, that weave these beautiful, really expensive Persian rugs, which must take way more hours than I spent on my sweater, purposely weave in a mistake because they say only God makes things perfect.

John: Oh.

Lei: We don’t want to aspire to be like God, to pretend like we’re God, so we’re going to weave in a mistake. Plus, she said, nobody’s ever going to see it. Nobody’s ever going to go, there’s a mistake.

John: If they do, they’re not your friend. Get out of here.

Lei: Thank you. No kidding. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve worn that sweater, and nobody’s ever pointed out that there’s a mistake in my sweater.

John: That’s awesome. No, I love it. I love it so much. That’s so cool. Since then, you’ve been knitting and getting more adventurous on things to wear and things for other people to wear and all that.

Lei: All my family members have socks and sweaters and scarves and hats and all kinds of things. Yeah.

John: What is the difference between knitting and crocheting? Because you dropped it earlier.

Lei: I did.

John: I don’t necessarily know the difference. I feel like one has a hook or something, right?

Lei: Yeah, a crochet hook. Yeah. You just use one needle when you’re crocheting, and the traditional crochet method, you only have one live stitch. You just move from that stitch to the next stitch to the next stitch, and you only have one live stitch. When you’re knitting, all of the stitches are live. If you accidentally pulled your knitting needle out, all the stitches would be free to unravel.

John: Oh.

Lei: Yeah. It’s pretty cool. A T-shirt is actually a knit product, but the thread is just so teeny tiny. You would need to use microscopic knitting needles to knit it. Same thing with socks, socks are made with knit material. One of the cool things about crochet, if you ever buy anything that’s crocheted, it is handmade. There is no machine that can crochet. There are machines that knit, like this sweater was knit on a machine. Your socks were probably knit on a machine.

John: Okay.

Lei: Isn’t that cool?

John: Yeah, that is cool.

Lei: If somebody gives you something that’s crocheted, it’s handmade.

John: Yeah, and then you’ve got to find the mistake. No, no, I’m kidding. I’m teasing. That’s super cool, though. Do you have something that you’ve made, besides that first sweater, that’s been like, wow, this was a really fun project or something that I was really excited to do?

Lei: Absolutely. For years, I wouldn’t tackle socks. That was like a badge of honor for a knitter to say that they could knit socks because they’re pretty complicated.

John: Totally. I can imagine.

Lei: Yeah. I decided I’m going to learn how to knit socks. I didn’t want to take a class because I didn’t want to admit I didn’t know how to knit socks to all my knitting friends. I got on YouTube and found a pattern that was just a real simple pattern. Actually, I take that back. I did get the pattern, not on YouTube. I found the pattern at a knit shop in Portland, Oregon, called Close Knit. I’ll give Sherry a shout-out here. She said, this is a great beginner pattern. I still use that pattern today. Bought some yarn from her and then I watched YouTube and just followed the pattern. It was easy. My very first sock, I was knitting on one of the riverboat cruises in Bordeaux, France.

John: Nice.

Lei: Yes.

John: Okay.

Lei: On our trip was this lady from Great Britain. She had her Great British accent, and I had just finished my heel turn, which is a big deal in sock knitting, especially when you’re new. It’s kind of scary. She said, oh, you did a fine job on your heel turn. I was just so proud.

John: Right? Especially when it sounds like Mary Poppins is praising you.

Lei: Right. Yes, absolutely.

John: You’re like, I’m so good.

Lei: Thank you Mary Poppins.

John: Right? That’s awesome. I love it. Yeah, it’s just making things that you’re like, well, why not? Let’s give it a try. Worst case scenario, you unwind it and start over.

Lei: Yeah, absolutely. So, that first pair was for me, and I have probably knit all my family and some friends. Because you have to be knit-worthy. You have to prove your knit-worthiness before I’m going to spend 16 to 20 hours making you a pair of socks, which is about what it takes me.

John: Right.

Lei: I knit socks all the time now. I never don’t have a pair of socks on the needles because they’re so little. You can take them anywhere. A sweater or an Afghan or something, it’s big. It takes up a lot of luggage room. If I’m flying around or traveling around, a pair of socks is a great thing to take with me.

John: That’s awesome. Especially in your Corvette, then they fit just perfectly.

Lei: Yes, and I do knit in my Corvette. I do take my knitting. I live in Dallas/Fort Worth, and there’s never not a stoplight. I get stuck at a stoplight, I just pick up my knitting and knit until it’s time to go, and then off I go. I don’t get mad at all the stoplights. Why are you stopping me? I’m like, oh, yay, another row.

John: Right? That’s so impressive. I love it. Do you feel like there’s a skill set from the knitting especially, that translates over to your corporate career?

Lei: Yes, absolutely. Because you can’t just say, let me just whip out a pair of socks, or let me just knit up a sweater tonight, and it’s due tomorrow, right? You have to plan. You have to use your thought process. There’s lot of decisions around what you’re going to knit. What color are you going to use? Is it appropriate yarn for the type of pattern? Because if it needs to flow and have movement, just like a piece of fabric, it needs to have a certain type of yarn. The weight of the yarn is a decision you have to make. A lot of planning goes into it. What size are you going to make? Do you want ease where you’ve got some room to move around, like a sweatshirt? Or you do you want it to be like Marilyn Monroe-type sweater where you can see all the goodies? What’s your goal?

You have to have lots of thought and planning go into that, which is just what you have to do for accounting. If I’ve got a company, and I don’t want to pay a third of my earnings in tax to the good old US government through the IRS, I need to do some planning. Think about, what is this going to do to my outcomes, and how’s that going to impact me from a tax standpoint? How do I need to account for things? Do I need to count that as cost of goods sold? Or is that something that can reside on the balance sheet and not be an expense and hurt my EBITDA, if I’m trying to be nice and good-looking to an investor or a buyer?

John: No, I didn’t even think about that. I’m not just going to go make some socks. It’s like, well, yeah, what color, what pattern, what size, what kind of material, what kind of yarn? That’s tons of thought process before that. Plus, too, I imagine if you’re halfway through and you’re like, I made a mistake, halfway through a tax return; it’s like, well, fix it. This isn’t brain surgery where, I messed up, and game over. It’s, just start over, or unwind and go back to that and then start again.

Lei: You’re absolutely right. Knitting backwards is a thing, and we call it tinking, which is knit spelled backwards. I’m tinking. Or if you’ve really messed up and you’re just going to get the whole thing out, you rip it, rip it, rip it, and that’s called frogging.

John: Okay. All right.

Lei: I love the process of knitting. I love that, but something about having to tink or frog it just makes me angry. I do not like doing it.

John: Right, because all the work you put in to make it.

Lei: Yeah, I’m going to have to do it again. Maybe I should say, I get to do it again.

John: Right. I get to. It’s more practice, and it’s even better. Is knitting, is that something that you’ve talked about at work or with coworkers and clients?

Lei: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. In fact, there’s a blanket right there that people come and borrow my blanket. Can I borrow your blanket? I’m going to go in this conference room, and it’s cold. Yeah, absolutely. One of our employees was having a baby. His wife was having a baby. If he was, we’d be on the news.

John: Right. Right.

Lei: Anyway, his wife was having a baby, and one of our clients was making him an afghan. He’s like, oh, you need to meet Lei. She and I have become knitting friends and shared patterns with each other.

John: See? That’s just got to be a richer relationship than with maybe another client that we also have, type of thing.

Lei: Right. Absolutely. The fact that he got to say, hey, our managing partner’s a knitter. You should talk with her. I gave him some context to talk to our client about it.

John: Yeah, absolutely. It just creates a sticky relationship. That’s got to be more fun. Oh, hey, I get to talk to this client today. Instead of, I got to make five phone calls. Oh, the knitter. What? We’re in. You block out an hour. It’s going to be a while.

Lei: Oh, yeah.

John: That’s cool to hear. How much do you feel like it is on an organization to create that space for people to be able to share their “ands”; versus, how much is it on the individual to just create that little small circle?

Lei: I think it’s 100% on the organization. I feel like, oh, my goodness, listening to your book, I was like, that is so it. It’s so true. That when you create an atmosphere where people feel empowered to talk about their weekend, or to talk about their upcoming trip, or to share that they’re about to be an aunt or an uncle or a grandparent; what joy do you get to share. We spend so much time with each other, sometimes more than we spend with our family sometimes, during tax season, for sure.

John: For sure.

Lei: Yeah, absolutely. Why not get to know each other like that? It’s what makes people feel at home. It makes you feel like you’re truly part of your organization’s family, not just a part of the organization. I love it when I walk out in the hall and I hear our people talking about all the fun stuff they’ve got going on in their lives. We have a whiteboard where we write those kinds of questions that you ask me. You actually gave me some fodder for our whiteboard, so I can put some new questions up there.

John: Oh, that’s great. Then people write down their answers?

Lei: They do. Yeah, they do. Then they put their initials by their answers, so you can give them a rash if they’re answering different than you. Yeah.

John: Oh, that’s cool. I love that idea. It’s once a week type of thing?

Lei: Yeah. I don’t know if you know about the OU-Texas rivalry.

John: Oh, huge. A&M too.

Lei: Yes, but we’ve got an OU guy and a Texas guy. There’s always… The Texas guy writing in orange over the OU guy’s answer.

John: But it’s fun, and it brings some emotion to the office.

Lei: Yes, absolutely.

John: That emotion is great. I love it. That’s super awesome. Yeah, it is true, the tone at the top and creating that space to let people breathe and play in, rather than structuring everything and having to be so rigid. These are adults that are good at what they do. Treat them like adults instead of five-year-old toddlers.

Lei: Sarah and Joe, there are three partners, Sarah and Joe are married. They are the Averett. I’ve known them for a long, long time. When I joined the firm, one of the first things I got to do was plan the Christmas party. I became the fun Aunt Lei. Aunt Lei is the fun aunt. Then it was tax season, and I said, why don’t we get snacks for everybody during tax season? They’ve never done snacks before. Fun Aunt Lei is bringing us snacks during tax season. Then we started bringing in lunch on Fridays.

John: There you go.

Lei: I get to be the fun aunt.

John: That’s cool. Yeah. Well, it’s just bringing a wrinkle to what people expect, and it’s just a little bit different. I love that idea. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that feels like they have an “and” outside of work, hobby or passion that has nothing to do with their career or people aren’t going to care about it, they think?

Lei: Talk about it. Share your stories. Tell your funny stories. Tell people what you’re working on. I have even thought about, I should bring a couple more blankets up here just so people will have a conversation thing if they like. Bring a blanket into a meeting with the client. Hey, would you like one? Our managing partner makes these on the side.

John: Why not? Right. Exactly. Are you selling them? No, these are for the office. That’s cool.

Lei: Yeah, and it makes people remember you. If you have a conversation with them about what’s going on in their life and then they ask you what’s going on in your life, it just makes it so much more real, versus just talking about the numbers, good grief, poke and stick them. I don’t know why I went into accounting. I just think like an accountant, but I am not all about that.

Our clients love knowing about our people, and we love knowing about our clients too, and what’s going on in their lives. If I can encourage our people to talk to each other, then they become more comfortable talking with our clients. Our clients know who we are. We know who they are. That’s all more about life.

John: Yeah, which makes everything better. I love it so much, Aunt Lei, fun Aunt Lei. Before I wrap this up, I feel like it’s only fair that I turn the tables because I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning.

Lei: Oh, you did.

John: We should turn the tables and let you ask me whatever. This is the Lei Testa podcast. I appreciate you having me on as a guest. I’m all yours.

Lei: I confess, I took some of the questions that we’ve put on our whiteboard, and they’re going to be some of your questions.

John: Okay.

Lei: Okay. Thank you, John. Baseball or football.

John: Oh, football, for sure. Football. Yeah, it’s just more stuff happening. If baseball was six innings, then maybe. It’s like the middle three innings, for some reason, I get teleported out. I don’t even know what happened. They’re like, hey, did you see that home run in the fifth inning? I’m like, nope, because it was the fourth through sixth innings. I’m just like… Maybe the World Series is exciting because everything’s on the line now. A regular season baseball game for nine innings, it’s like, but yeah, football is always great, college especially.

Lei: Yeah. Oh, that’s fantastic.

John: For sure.

Lei: College or pro.

John: College football, hands down.

Lei: Okay. Yeah.

John: Easily. Yeah, for sure.

Lei: Beach or mountains.

John: That’s a tricky one only because I live in Denver, and I can, in my backyard, see the mountains. They’re right there. I feel like I’m a little bit spoiled in that regard. Beach feels like, I have to get on an airplane, and it’s a trip. It’s a vacation. I guess I might lean beach just because it means that I’m on vacation.

Lei: Got it. That makes sense.

John: Specifically, the Indian Ocean, a beach in the Indian Ocean.

Lei: Oh, I like that.

John: Yeah. The Indian Ocean is the best ocean. I will fight all the other oceans on that one.

Lei: No taking. I’ve never been to the Indian Ocean, so that may be a thing I need to add to my bucket list.

John: You can knit all kinds of stuff on a flight to the Indian Ocean.

Lei: Where in the Indian Ocean? Off the coast of Australia?

John: Zanzibar.

Lei: Oh, that sounds so exotic, Zanzibar.

John: Yeah, east side of Africa and then the Maldives, under India. Yeah. It’s just crystal blue and amazing and warm because it’s all tropical in the equator. Yeah, it’s great.

Lei: Awesome. Zanzibar. That sounds like a place I need to go. Any place that starts with a Z might be just for me.

John: Yeah, it is. It’s a cool place. It’s like, all right.

Lei: That’s really cool. Okay, dogs or cats.

John: Dogs, all day.

Lei: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, good dogs or bad dogs.

John: Oh, well, our dog has a little — he’s got a personality.

Lei: He’s got some bad dog in him.

John: Yeah. He’s not super well-trained. He’s trained enough, but he’s still a dog. It’s like, let kids be kids, sort of a thing. Yeah. He’s hilarious though.

Lei: Movies or books.

John: I’ll probably go movies on that, like fictional. I usually read nonfiction books. Plus, it’s just more efficient. I can knock this story out, an hour and a half or two hours. Reading the book’s going to be a couple of weeks.

Lei: Yeah. That’s why I picked audible books when you asked me. I haven’t figured out yet how to read and knit at the same time.

John: Right. Oh, there you go.

Lei: I can listen and knit at the same time.

John: There you go.

Lei: I can’t read and — okay. Yeah. You live in Colorado, right?

John: Yeah.

Lei: The mountains. Yeah. In Texas, we eat chili. Do you like chili with beans or without?

John: Beans, with beans.

Lei: Wrong answer.

John: I just got kicked off the show. Get out. Get out.

Lei: Crunchy or smooth.

John: Crunchy.

Lei: Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah, me too. Got to have some crunch in peanut butter.

John: Texture, yeah.

Lei: Yeah. Zombies or vampires.

John: I’ll go vampire, I think, on that one. That’s a good one. I hadn’t thought of that before.

Lei: I like vampires too. Lost Boys is one of my all-time favorite vampire movies. Yeah. M&M’s or Reese’s pieces.

John: M&M’s peanut.

Lei: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. This is kind of dumb on you, comedy or drama.

John: Comedy.

Lei: Yeah, yeah. Do you like any drama?

John: Yeah, I do. TV shows like Breaking Bad or something like that is great.

Lei: Oh, okay. That was going to be my question. Do you like light, or do you like dark?

John: Oh, no, dark’s great. Even like… I mean, it was still a comedy. I thought it was hilarious, but Jim Carrey did that movie, Cable Guy. It was super dark comedy.

Lei: Yeah. The Truman Show, I thought was funny, but it was also dark.

John: The same thing. That was maybe a drama, but I thought it was hilarious in parts. No, definitely, there is a time for drama, but I feel like if I’m going to sit down and be entertained, then funny is where it’s at.

Lei: Yeah, yeah. You asked me pen or pencil, which makes me think about school. How about recess or lunch?

John: Oh, that’s a good one. Yeah. Man, that is really hard. I think I’m going to go recess just because I feel like you can get away with more stuff at recess than lunch where there are more teachers watching you.

Lei: There are more eyes watching you at lunch. Yeah. I see how you are. I see how you are.

John: Exactly, exactly.

Lei: Okay, what about classwork or homework? Do you remember?

John: Oh, in class, classwork.

Lei: Me too, yeah.

John: Or on the bus, whatever. I’m not doing it at home.

Lei: I am not doing it at home. My goal was to be done by the time the bell rang every afternoon because I’ve got some play time to do.

John: Right. Exactly.

Lei: Okay, a sports car or SUV.

John: Sports car. The taller the vehicle, the dumber I look driving it.

Lei: Me too.

John: Which is weird because I’m tall.

Lei: Me too. I feel like I look like a dork driving a big, tall vehicle.

John: A pickup truck, I look like a complete idiot.

Lei: Okay, so which sports car? If you could have any sports car you wanted, what would it be?

John: Your Corvette. No, I’m just kidding.

Lei: Next time you’re here, you can drive it. I’m not driving it all the time.

John: I’ll just go for a ride. I’ll knit and then you drive. We’re double efficient.

Lei: Final question, store-bought or handmade gift to receive?

John: Oh, yeah, handmade. It’s just shows that you care, and you know what’s going on. It’s something for you, and I know that this is for you. Yeah, for sure.

Lei: Yeah. Awesome.

John: Very cool. Thank you so much, Lei, for taking time to be a part of What’s Your “And”? This was super, super fun.

Lei: It was. Thank you so much, John. I had an absolute blast.

John: Awesome. Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Lei in action or some of the things that she’s created or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 447 of What’s Your “And”? Happy Holidays, everybody. This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the places where they work because of it. If you want to hear this voice read the book to you, that’s right, me reading it, you can check out the book on Audible or wherever you get your audio books.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Ken Healy. He’s a partner with Diversified Financial Solutions in Connecticut, and now he’s with me here today. Ken, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Ken: Oh, of course. Thank you for having me.

John: This is going to be so much fun. I’m looking forward to it. I have my rapid-fire questions to get to know Ken on another level here. We’ll start with maybe an easy one. Favorite color.

Ken: Favorite color, blue.

John: Blue. Mine too. All right, we can keep going. How about a least favorite color?

Ken: Least favorite color, I’ll say brown.

John: Brown. Man, brown is just getting hammered. Brown is just the least favorite color just nonstop. I’m even going to just stop asking that because I know the answer all the time now. You’re right. It’s not great. How about a favorite day of the week?

Ken: Friday.

John: Friday. There you go. How about favorite toppings on a pizza? You’re close to New York. You’ve got to have a pizza favorite.

Ken: I like clam pizza, New Haven clam pizza.

John: Oh, okay. Clam pizza, there you go. That’s very good. How about chocolate or vanilla?

Ken: Chocolate.

John: Chocolate. There you go. I don’t know why I’m doing food right now. I must be hungry. That’s what’s going on. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw?

Ken: Sudoku. It’s the only one I could finish.

John: There you go. There you go. That’s awesome. Which is the perfect reason why that should be. That’s so good. How about cats or dogs?

Ken: We have a cat. I don’t know if I have a preference for either, but I know my wife will be upset if I don’t say a cat.

John: You will be homeless, Homeless Ken, if you don’t say cat. There we go. That’s fair enough. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Ken: Neither. I haven’t gotten into either of those.

John: There you go. That’s totally, totally honest. How about your computer — I know you for sure — PC or a Mac?

Ken: PC at work, Mac at home.

John: Oh, little ambidextrous there. I see what you’re doing. Okay.

Ken: Yeah.

John: All right. How about favorite Disney character?

Ken: I’ll say Mickey.

John: Mickey. Solid. Classic. There you go. How about books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Ken: I like the audio books. It’s easy for a car. I do like a real book in my hands, but most of the time, it’s audio book because that’s when I have time to listen and catch up on books.

John: Right? Yeah. No, I hear you on that one, for sure. How about a favorite number?

Ken: Favorite number, 17.

John: Yeah? Is there a reason?

Ken: I got married in 2017, so 17 is my favorite number.

John: There you go. It’s also an easy reminder. Oh, yeah, that. There you go. That’s awesome. Very good. How about your first concert?

Ken: First concert was 311 when I was at college.

John: Nice. There you go. Absolutely, man. How about, oh, this is a fun one as the accountant, balance sheet or income statement?

Ken: Income statement.

John: Income statement. There it is. Yeah. Are you more of a talk or text?

Ken: Most of the time, text.

John: Most of time, text.

Ken: More efficient, yeah.

John: Yeah, more efficient. Right. We don’t have to do the small talk, just get through it. There you go. Two more. How about your favorite ice cream flavor? I’m a huge ice cream junkie.

Ken: I like cookie dough chocolate chip.

John: Yeah, yeah. I was worried you were going to say clam ice cream. I was going, all right, that’s too far.

Ken: No, not with ice cream.

John: I don’t even know if that exists. Sounds weird to me. The last one, the favorite thing you have and the favorite thing you own.

Ken: The favorite thing I have, the favorite thing I own actually is probably the Bible. My wife got me a Bible when we started dating, and that has significance to me.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah, super meaningful and powerful. That’s great. That’s really, really good. Really, really good. Let’s talk. We’ve got two “ands” really, doing a lot of community service, which is awesome, and then also having some rental properties, doing some demo and remodel work on that as well. You want to start with community service? How did you get started in that? Was it something that you were doing from younger or you got into later in life?

Ken: Yeah, I think from younger. We have a pretty tight-knit town and a close community. I grew up in Naugatuck, Connecticut. I think I’m fifth generation Naugatuck. There’s a lot of opportunity. My father is one of ten, and the family’s been around for a long time in Naugatuck. It’s an interesting point, a lot of the people that are volunteering, and they’re really involved. There are two groups. There are some a little bit older and some a little bit younger. I’m kind of in between, so I’ve had some opportunities to be on some different community service organizations and have some leadership opportunities. It’s been nice. It’s been very rewarding. I find it to be very impactful in the town I’m in. I enjoy doing it. I’m getting off of a few of them and stepping down and letting other people step up, but there was a time I was quite involved with it and really enjoyed it.

John: Was there one that you were involved with that you feel made a bigger difference?

Ken: Yeah, I really feel my time with United Way in Naugatuck and Beacon Falls, I had a lot of opportunities, over the years, to do different roles and responsibilities. I think the impact that they have on the community has been really rewarding, and it’s been nice to spend a little bit different than other organizations I’ve been involved with. In our local United Way, there’s just over 27 programs and 17 partner agencies.

John: Holy cow.

Ken: It’s one place that if you give your money, they then go and vet the programs and see what their impact is in their community, and they allocate the money as they deem appropriately. I started to have an allocations committee. A group of people get together, and they review all the applications from these organizations and their programs. What I found to be unique is then the representatives in their programs will come in, and they’ll talk about it. They’ll answer questions. We have a chance to see what they’re doing in the community. If there’s less people participating, we ask why. Or if there’s more, we ask about what programs they have.

There’s a lot of back and forth and give and take. It’s nice to see and challenge them and get challenged and see what they see the need is. I’m always blown away. It usually falls during tax season on time, but I found that going and being with them and really seeing what the needs are in the community and how they’re impacted, you get to see a lot of programs that you know existed, but you didn’t really have the names or faces. Or sometimes they’ll bring representatives, Big Brothers, Big Sisters. They’ll bring someone that’s little, and they’ll bring their big. They’ll talk about their experiences. It was just really eye-opening for me.

John: Yeah.

Ken: That was my introduction to United Way of Beacon Falls. One year, I was able to chair the Allocations Committee because I’ve been on there a few years, and then I served as their campaign chair. For one year, I was helping raise the money. We had different events. I would oversee it. Most recently, I was president. I was working on a succession plan and having a future chairman lined up, or chairwoman or teams of chairpeople. It was interesting, over the last couple of years, they started a Mobile Food Bank in partnership with the Connecticut Food Bank.

John: Holy cow, man.

Ken: Once a month, there’s a place where people could come, no questions asked, anywhere in the community, no income questions. They just asked where you’re from, for demographics. People line up a couple hours ahead of time to go through. People go through and get all fresh food. People from the high school and schools volunteer to bring it out to their cars. It’s really grown and increased. Now there are wraparound services. There will be nurses from schools. There will be barbers, and people giving haircuts for back-to-school for kids.

John: Oh, wow.

Ken: It’s amazing to see. We do have a local food bank, but it’s only open a couple of days a week. This one’s at night. To see the people and to see who’s in need, and their thank-you stories. With COVID, a lot of people that, in the past, haven’t needed help, have been able to receive it. The United Way have received a lot of calls from people saying, “I’ve never been in this position. How do I even get help?”

Last year, the United Way, they started a COVID relief fund. They raised over $59,000, and a lot of people were able to collect unemployment. Their job had to be forced to be closed because of COVID, and it took a while for unemployment checks to roll out and different things. So there is money to help people recover their mortgage or their rent for a month or two, until this got going. It’s just amazing how, in a local community, all these things go on, behind the scenes. You understand that they do, but to get some names and faces and see it really in action. I really enjoyed my time with it and being part of it.

John: No, no, for sure. By being in that position, instead of volunteering for one of those charities, you’re impacting all of them that are then making such a huge difference in the community, and you see it immediately. Like you said, you’re volunteering there and then you hear the thank-you stories. You hear the impact. You hear the little from Big Brothers, Big Sisters, telling the story. That’s so moving, man. That’s really cool.

Ken: Yeah, and the programs are all across the board. We have a therapeutic riding center, and there are horses. People with disabilities or cancer survivor or people that are grieving could go and be on the horses. You go and see the horses, and you hear those stories. There’s another one that has after-school programs for kids, and to hear their needs and what they’re doing and what they’re doing positively. It’s really incredible in a small town to have all these things going on. It’s nice to get to meet those people and see that and experience that.

John: Yeah, that’s great, man. You’re going to be Mayor soon. This is awesome. Okay, maybe not, but that’s so great man. It’s cool to hear that it’s just making a difference. You can see it right away, its immediate impact, in a big way. That’s powerful, man. That’s really cool. Flipping it a little bit is the home remodeling. How did you get started with that? Was it just something that you watched some YouTube videos and were like, I can do this? How did that get going?

Ken: Watching some YouTube videos HGTV. Luckily, the firm I’m with, I’ve been with since I was 16. The owner of the firm, now I’m also an owner, but at the time, I was working for someone. He owned a bunch of rental properties, in addition to having their accounting practice. He’s fluctuated between 50 to 80 units, not buildings, but actual units, and a lot of them come to the office to pay their rent. If they need something fixed, they come, and we have people that could fix it.

Shortly after I passed my CPA, we and a couple others bought a building. It had 22 apartments in it, and I was to manage it. That really got my feet wet. I think in 15 months, we fixed and renovated about 15 of them, as people moved out for different reasons. The fortunate thing was it was all fixed up. We had some great people in there. Every time an apartment became vacant, people that lived there, say, hey, I’ve got someone that needs apartment. I’ve got a brother, I’ve got a sister, I’ve got a coworker, so they’re going to fill pretty quickly.

Someone else in the area that owned a bunch of properties liked it, made us an offer, and we decided to sell it and buy another one to fix up since they’ve been fixed up. I had just gotten it to the point where it’s getting easy to manage. They’re all fixed up and looking good, but it was a great opportunity. It was a lot of nights and weekends and a lot of work, but I really got to see it. They were just one-bedroom apartments, nothing crazy, but it’s amazing what a fresh coat of paint and carpet and having some nicer floors installed, the difference that makes and the people you get in there. Being there every week and taking care of the property and talking to people, what a difference it can make.

John: Yeah, and when it looks nice, people want to take care of it more.

Ken: Yeah, it’s funny. It was a little rundown when we bought it. I think those are the properties we like to find. There’s a lot of rumors that there’s some questionable activity, and there are issues. One of the first things we did, there’s a lot of tall bushes, the lights outside weren’t working, so we replaced that. We cut down the bushes. We increased the visibility. There are people dumping construction debris every weekend into the dumpster and filling it up, so we put a lock on that. Next thing you know, they’re going somewhere else to do all that kind of stuff because they’re looking for the easiest place to get in and out of. They were able to use this property for a long time and then it changed.

There’s a tow truck company that was down the street, and they will monitor it and watch it. If cars are unregistered or unlicensed, they’ll actually tow them, or if cars are parked improperly. Ironically, in Connecticut too, you can’t renew your registration, if you have back taxes or child support or other things. The tow truck company, they don’t charge you. They pitch it as they’re cleaning up the neighborhood. They’re able to see if these licenses or the license plates are registered or if there are issues. If they tow them, the money has to correct your issue, and then you have to pay them to get your car back. After that started, a lot of people started parking on the streets because they’re less likely to have an issue on the street, but they know if they parked in our parking lot and their cars or the tags are expired, that they would have issues with the tow truck company.

John: Yeah, yeah.

Ken: A lot of little things but then once you get some good people in there, it’s incredible. There were good people in there before. Don’t get me wrong.

John: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Ken: It’s just word of mouth. As soon as, people are asking us, do we have an apartment available? Let me know. We want to have somebody come in here that we know.

John: That’s cool, man. Yeah, and you’re doing some of that work. Pulling up carpet is, that’s some work, man.

Ken: Yeah, we’re pulling up carpet. I realized a lot of them, they definitely need to be replaced, so it was nice. It’s a lot easier for people to maintain, going forward. If there’s no carpet, they can always put down a rug or do what they want. It looks good. It looks a little bit nicer. A fresh coat of paint, it really makes a difference. It doesn’t have to be anything fancy, all these special colors. Just white sometimes is just enough to brighten it up, and you really attract some good tenants. It was fun. We’ve done other properties, and we still have some now. It’s been fun.

It takes some work because with workers and different things, you have to keep on top of them and keep them on a schedule. Especially if you’re fixing up an apartment, the flooring has to get done, the painting. If you’re doing new cabinets in the kitchen, then you’re doing granite countertops, which we tend to do because they tend to last forever. There’s a sequence in things, and if one gets behind, everything else does. What I realized is that me doing things was probably the worst thing because it took me longer than if I just paid, but I thought I was trying to prove my worth and prove that I’m able to manage these things. I’ll save them money. If it took three or four weekends for me to get something painted, it would have been worth just paying someone to get it painted and get somebody in there that much sooner.

John: Yeah. Typically, for me, I do it once. I’m like, yeah, you know what? That’s worth paying for, next time. I don’t need to do that again, type of a thing, because just like you said, it just takes three times as long, and it’s not as good. It’s like, whatever. Well, that’s cool, man. You’re rolling sleeves, getting into it. That’s awesome. Do you feel like any of that gives you a skill that you bring to work that makes your accounting career better?

Ken: Yeah, I think it’s helpful in dealing with business owners. At that time, I wasn’t a partner yet in the company, equity partner. When you have property, and you have a mortgage, and you have to deal with tenants that are late, or you have to make decisions on whether or not a property’s worth buying, and a lot of business owners own property. They rent it themselves, or they have other tenants. When you’re navigating that, it does give you a little bit more confidence that you’ve done it and you know these things. You start to know what’s normal in this area, and what they could expect for rent, what the renovations truly will cost and what the taxes are going to be.

I did find it helpful. Just with every business owner, you’re paying rent, or you’re thinking about buying your own building. What are you looking at? What are you going to pay? Is it affordable? Does it make sense? How much are you going to pay yourself in rent? Even tenants, you deal with different issues. You deal with evictions and potential evictions and people that are late. How are you going to deal with that?

I try to be at the properties every weekend. I like to hear what’s going on. I like to hear what they’re saying and what the problems are, what the perceived problems are and how to address it and to talk to people and help them from getting themselves in bad situations if they get a little bit behind. Sometimes they get too far behind and then that’s not good for anyone. You could have those discussions. You can start paying every week or every two weeks. If you miss that and a month goes by, then it’s going to be really hard for these people to catch up.

A lot of them come to our office. It’s a two-way street. They know where we are. We’re not hiding. We’re not avoiding phone calls. I know when I’m there. I’m there every weekend, and they see me. They’re talking to me. I know what’s going on. I say, if there’s something wrong, let me know. I want to fix it. I don’t want there to be issues. I think they realize that, you do have to pay rent, and you do have a nice apartment. On the flip side, when there are issues, we’re going to address it and address it quickly, and I think they have respect for that.

John: Yeah. That’s cool to hear that you’re in person. In this day and age of sending text messages or nothing in person, it’s like, no, no. I’m here, and you know where I’m at. If you need something, I’m actually helpful and trying to make it better. Because some landlords, they don’t care. I lived in New York City for a long time, and I had some of those. It’s brutal. Then on the community service side, I would imagine that just having a better sense of community as a whole has to be some sort of a skill or a mindset that helps you with your work.

Ken: Yeah, and especially in our area, we’re able to — a lot of business owners are involved. They volunteer to help financially. They go to different events. You start to make these connections. When you have clients, and they have needs, and they’re looking for a bank loan, or they’re looking for refinance, they’re looking to buy a property, you know that you have a lot of great connections. There’s a lot of great people in the community that you can make those connections. It’s satisfying. You get referrals, and there are referrals back. It’s nice to be part of that. We have some older accountants and CPAs but not a lot of young ones, so it’s nice to get referrals from other ones that aren’t taking business on or different things and to see their businesses grow.

Because I will say to a lot of them, please, especially the bank, if they need help, send them to me. I’m glad to meet with them and consult with them. I want to see them succeed. I don’t want people to go in, they see a restaurant, and a year later, it’s a different name. A year later, it’s a different name. I don’t want people to fail. I want them to know what they’re going into and go into with open eyes. You work hard, but let’s make sure that this model makes sense before we get into it. We don’t want to find out a year later, and you’ve accumulated debt and everything else, that’s bad for you. It’s bad for the community. I think people could tell if you’re genuine, if your heart is in it for the right reason, and I think that helps make our community stronger.

John: Yeah, for sure, man. I love how you said a cool byproduct of this is referrals and work and connections that make other business happen. You’re not involved with the United Way before that. You’re making the community better, but then along the way, oh, wow, look, it makes me better at my job. It makes the firm better. You’re able to make a bigger difference, which is cool. Rarely do people think of these outside-of-work passions as making work better, but it clearly does. That’s cool, man.

Ken: Yeah, and it’s nice too, because with the rental properties, we have different issues. A lot of clients, we can hire to either repair them, fix things, inspect new properties we’re doing to insure our properties. My grandfather was an insurance agent in town, and my uncle and cousin took it over. I also have a good friend that’s an insurance agent at a different company. At the time, we had three or four buildings insured with one, insured with another. It’s nice to be able to spread it out a little bit. I can’t give everyone 100%, but it’s nice. I don’t have to pick and choose between my cousin who I’m really close to and my other good friend who works at a different agency. It’s nice to be able to have them help us and to be able to use our clients for a ton of different services that all these properties require.

John: Yeah. That’s great man. That’s super cool. Super cool. It sounds like it’s cool that at your firm, talking about these “ands” is normal. People know. They share. Obviously, when you were 16, you saw the owner of the firm have tenants come in to pay rent, so it’s what we do. How much do you think it is on the organization to create that space for people to be able to share these other sides to who they are? Or how much is it on the individual to just get it going in a small circle?

Ken: I think it’s a combination because our staff is great if a tenant comes in. We have two offices, and for the other office, they’re great at addressing and putting in those requests. If it’s a small minor repair, something like that, they’re able to handle it, which is really above and beyond the call of duty. Even with the charity work, a few of us are very involved with different organizations in town. When there are events, we all try to attend, and we try to support each other. We try to embrace those roles. We try to split up the organizations were part of so that we could spread our talents and our skills amongst the different communities. It’s nice.

I think it’s important for the companies to support that, and the people in their endeavor. Luckily, the company I’m part of and I own is supportive of that. I think it betters us overall. I know there are definitely times in tax seasons when there are complaints about, hey, I got to get something fixed. You said the person was going to come or the plow guy’s late or something. We’re calling. We’re trying to get things going.

Some times are better than others, but on the whole, I think it’s not too much of an inconvenience. People are really gracious on how to handle things. Sometimes the tenants don’t even want to talk to me. They want to talk to Kristen because she handles things so well. If it comes to me, I might not call them back till later in the day. It’s nice to hear those things. So it’s nice to see a company that supports it.

John: Yeah, for sure. Plus, it gives you something to talk about, besides just the spreadsheet or the tax return or the work. It’s cool to have a connection that lets you know each other on just a little bit of a deeper level, type of thing.

Ken: Yeah, we get some messages and some things and people laugh about, or some calls, and some issues we’ve had to resolve. Sometimes we are able to laugh about it. I know other people that manage rental properties, and they kind of do it all themselves. It can be stressful. It can be stressful when someone’s not paying rent. It can be stressful when you get some calls that are challenging. You try to just quickly resolve it and move forward.

John: Sure. Yeah, and there’s always something new. It’s probably similar with work where somebody comes in with some tax issue. It’s like, well, I’ve never seen this one before. Here we go. It’s a good muscle to exercise outside of the office, to just be nimble. There’s no handbook for this one, but I’m pretty sure we can figure it out.

Ken: Right.

John: That’s cool, man. Very cool. Do you have any words of encouragement for anyone listening that maybe has a passion outside of work and maybe even a charitable volunteer type thing that has nothing to do with their job, they think no one’s going to care?

Ken: Yeah. I would say my advice to them is pursue your passions. They’re important to have. We need to balance our work. I think that’s part of the reason why I enjoy doing this so much after tax season. All those hours, then the weather gets better, I could go out to the properties and fix them up and throw some mulch down and do some outside work. I think it’s good for our mental health. It’s good to balance. I know, especially accountants, there are seasons and times that we just work incredible hours. That’s just the nature of the business, but I think that will help give you balance. It’ll help you persevere through those challenging times. I think surrounding yourself with people that have the same interests is incredibly important to all these organizations, to all the rental properties. I’ve met great people that I would have never met unless I had pursued these passions.

I think, especially if it’s productive, especially if it’s helping others or impacting others, what I like about the rental properties is just instant gratification. If something’s wrong, if somebody moves out, and you’re able to fix it and clean it up. You can see fairly quickly within a month, how much better it looks. You get a great tenant in there, and they’re appreciative. If you’re doing something, especially if it’s productive or positive, they do take up time. You have to sacrifice in other areas sometimes for these, but you don’t want to look back and have regrets. You want to be able to know whether you pursued them with your whole heart and passion.

I think everyone needs to find that thing that when you talk to, their eyes light up. That’s the thing that they, when you talk to, you know that that’s just something they enjoy, and it gets you out of bed on the morning. On a weekend or at night, after work, you could swing by those things. Everybody has passions. You have your careers. That pays the bills. That fulfills us in other ways, but you have to find what really is your passion, what does excite you. It’s important to have those. You want something that you’re excited about in the morning to get out of bed and do.

I’m fortunate my wife and I, we bought our own house last year. We’re living in one of these multi-families and saving up. We’re doing a lot of repairs, and I didn’t realize how much more time it takes to do these types of things at your own house because it’s a different level of how you want things fixed up. You don’t just find the easiest solution, so you can get somebody in there, get something fixed, but it’s nice. It’s gratifying. We have these connections with these people, and they’re able to help us and fix things. We know what solutions work and what doesn’t. It’s nice when it comes back. It’s nice to be able to put the care into the house and enjoy with my wife and all that.

I think a lot of times, we find the benefits of having these passions and how they do help you at home and all these different things. You’re in a better state of mind. You’re in a better mental health. There are also skills and different things you take on, and you feel good about doing this, especially if you have someone. My wife, she supports me on this. I try to support her in her passions. It’s nice. We complement each other and do a lot because of that.

John: That’s awesome, man. That’s so good. Yeah, and it’s just fun to talk about, for you, and then people care. It’s just fun to share. That’s so cool to hear, man. Well, I feel like before we wrap this up, it’s only fair that I turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Ken Healy podcast, since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning. I’m all yours. What have you got?

Ken: All right, the first one. I got my Master’s degree at Notre Dame. We’re filming this a little before the Holidays, so I want you to predict the future. What bowl game are we going to be in, in a couple of weeks?

John: Oh, wow. Yeah, so this is before. Definitely, a New Year’s Six bowl, but I could see us getting in the playoffs. I could see us sneaking in. There’s a lot of teams that have lost. We’re starting to finally play as a team. The beginning of the season was like awkward adolescence where we’re trying to figure out how things work, and got it together. Yeah, I think we could sneak into the playoffs. Otherwise, it’ll be like a Fiesta Bowl or an Orange Bowl type of thing. Although the Rose Bowl would be pretty sweet because we haven’t been there in forever. Supposed to be there last year but then because of COVID and all that, got bumped to Dallas. Yeah, I think one of those New Year’s Six.

Ken: Perfect. You mentioned before that you liked some things on the East Coast. You’ve been near Connecticut. What are your favorite cities in and around Connecticut?

John: I remember Ridgefield, Connecticut. There’s a theater there where I did some comedy shows. I think it’s the Playhouse. I think they call it the Ridgefield Playhouse. Yeah, so I’ve done some shows there, really cool, very quintessential New England type of city. It’s called the Playhouse for crying out loud. What more do you need? That’s a cool city. My mom actually went to high school in Danbury, Connecticut.

Ken: Oh, okay.

John: That’s going to be on there. Yeah, those will probably be the two in Connecticut that come to mind, as far as when I visited, I was like, wow, this is kind of a cool city, type of thing, or with my mom having a connection there.

Ken: Our other office is Southbury which is right outside Danbury.

John: Oh, okay.

Ken: Very close.

John: I guess having moved around so much, growing up and everything, helps me relate because I don’t know how many people have been to Connecticut, to be honest. It’s kind of cool. Thank you so much, Ken, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? and taking time to do this.

Ken: Thank you for everything you do. I think it’s making quite a change in the profession. I think it’s really important and needed.

John: Well, thanks, man. Go Irish, right?

Ken: Yeah, absolutely.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Ken outside of work or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 445 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth into the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Shannon Weinstein. She’s the owner of Fitnancial Solutions, a digital accounting practice serving small business owners all over the country, and now she’s with me here today. Shannon, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Shannon: Yeah. Thanks, John. Thanks for having me.

John: This is going to be so much fun. I have, get to know Shannon out of the gate here, 17 rapid-fire questions. This will be fun. Here we go. Star Wars or Star Trek.

Shannon: I’ve seen neither.

John: Okay. Okay. Fair enough.

Shannon: I’m criticized for that daily by my husband.

John: That’s awesome.

Shannon: Impartial. I will piss off someone if I say one of them, so, impartial.

John: That’s true. That’s true. Although the Star Trek fans can’t beat you up. No, I’m just kidding. Only because I’m a Star Wars. How about a favorite day of the week?

Shannon: I’ll say Friday.

John: Friday. Okay. Nice. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Shannon: PC.

John: PC. Yeah, me too. How about on your mouse, right click or left click?

Shannon: I guess, left click?

John: Left click, making the decisions. That’s where it’s at. Yeah. Just pick this. All right. How about a favorite Disney character?

Shannon: I will say Megara from Hercules.

John: Oh, nice. That’s, yeah, the first time I’ve gotten that one. Good answer. Good answer. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw puzzles?

Shannon: I loved those logic puzzles where you had to decide what kid had what pet. Remember?

John: Oh, right.

Shannon: The box and the grid.

John: It’s like the matrix sort of a thing. Yeah.

Shannon: I loved that. I probably attribute most of my critical thinking skills at work to playing those as a kid.

John: That actually makes sense. Right? Yeah, because they would give you five sentences, and then you had to fill in all the things. Awesome. Yeah, you’re taking me back. All right. How about a favorite color?

Shannon: I’ll say teal.

John: Teal. Solid. Okay. How about a least favorite color?

Shannon: I’ll say brown.

John: Yeah, very unpopular color. I’m not even sure why it’s a color anymore. It’s so unpopular. I joke that I think brown’s just around so the color looks good.

Shannon: It’s so unpopular that M&M’s covered it up on all of them.

John: Right? That’s dead-on accurate. You can’t even argue that. Here we go. Favorite actor or actress? The Rock. Okay. Yeah, he’s super fun. Super fun. How about talk or text?

Shannon: It depends on what you’re trying to say. I am definitely easier to get in touch with via text.

John: Okay. All right. All right. How about diamonds or pearls?

Shannon: I’ll say diamonds.

John: Okay. All right. All right. How about, since you have the accounting background, balance sheet or income statement?

Shannon: Can I go statement of cash flows on that?

John: Oh, that’s the hardest one of all. No one even knows how to do it.

Shannon: No. No one knows how to do it. No one knows how to use it, but I think it’s the most useful one of them all.

John: Oh, it’s totally the most useful. Now that there’s computers, you just go to Reports print, and there it is, cash flow statement. Oh, that was my nightmare in college, for sure. Here’s a fun one, first concert.

Shannon: Oh, that was TLC.

John: Yes.

Shannon: And the original Destiny’s Child opened for them.

John: What?

Shannon: Yeah.

John: That’s nuts. That is crazy. Oh, my goodness. That is super awesome times two.

Shannon: Yeah, I got to see LaTavia and LeToya. Who can say that?

John: Right? That’s so good. That’s so good. I saw No Doubt open for Live. Everyone’s like, who’s this No Doubt band? Now, no one’s heard of Live.

Shannon: I’m calling that my first concert. I’m not counting Raffi when I was three.

John: Well, that doesn’t count. Yeah, that doesn’t count. Right, right. How about a favorite number?

Shannon: A favorite number? Nine.

John: Nine? Okay. Just because. All right. Yeah, that’s a good one. How about books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Shannon: Audio book. I listen to them on walks all time. Otherwise, I have no time to read.

John: All right, two more. Chocolate or vanilla.

Shannon: I’ll say vanilla.

John: Vanilla. All right. Yeah, yeah. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Shannon: My dog.

John: What kind of dog is it?

Shannon: He’s a red doberman.

John: Oh, nice. Very cool. Very cool. That’s awesome. Let’s talk fitness and everything that I don’t do. I’m a terrible person. How did you get just so into fitness? At what point did that happen? How did this all get started?

Shannon: Yeah, I ask myself that all the time actually. When did that happen? Because growing up, we were definitely like a Happy Meal family. Growing up, we were just, ate out all the time, got takeout, didn’t really pay attention to what we were eating. It was just a very lax, lazy type of approach. This was also in the ‘90s, where I’m pretty sure we ate chicken nuggets made of God knows what, TV dinners. We didn’t have the whole foods access that we have now.

John: Exactly.

Shannon: We ate a lot of, pretty much garbage, growing up, and didn’t do a lot of exercise. It really wasn’t a thing that was part of our lifestyle as a family. What I realized was, after I graduated college — the first time I set foot in a gym was in college, and I didn’t like it. It felt like a chore. It felt like a pain in the butt. What happened was my mom convinced me to go to my first ever Zumba class after I graduated college when I was living at home for about a year. She convinced me to go to this class, and I was like, this is silly. This is like old people, Jazzercise, Richard Simmons type of stuff. Because it kind of was. It was goofy. It was kind of cheesy when it first came out.

A couple of years later, I’m living in Boston at the time. I joined one of these women’s gyms, and I went to the Zumba class. I don’t know when it happened, but I was hooked after two or three classes. Because I took hip hop dance when I was younger and I was all over the structure of the class, learning the moves, it was easy to follow. I just lost myself in it where I was like, that was an hour already? We didn’t have the watches at the time, but I look at my heart rate monitor or whatever, and go, oh, my God, that was 500-something calories.

I did it because I loved it, and I found a great community in those classes, and met great people. We became friends around the classes. That’s the thing with fitness is you have to find your people or your thing that you’re happy to go to and look forward to. It was like people who go to church together or people who volunteer together. We went to dance together. I fell in, absolutely, love with it.

I also became an instructor. It turns out, I became an instructor, six months after I really started taking classes, three, four, five times a week. I was obsessed. The interesting part is I became an instructor in about August, September. My father passed away in December from pancreatic cancer. Why I’m telling you this is because, on his deathbed, literally told me, “Shannon, never get sick. Take care of yourself.”

John: Oh, wow.

Shannon: I hung on those words ever since. I was like, okay.

John: Yeah, seven days a week, I will do this.

Shannon: Yeah, orders received. I started eating better. I lost about 40 pounds. I just got my mind right and said, this is my life. I don’t want to end up like that. I don’t want to be a victim to things that happen to me. I want to take control of my own health. That was when I really pivoted into it.

John: Well, that’ll be a spark. That’s for sure. It’s so awesome that you found something that, the dance background that you so enjoyed, and it was fun and energetic, and then the community. Yeah, why not? I’m going to come anyway, so you pay me to do this. I’ll be the instructor.

Shannon: Yeah. I didn’t even think I was going to teach. That was almost eight years ago. I didn’t think I was going to teach ever, but they were like, just sign up for the thing so that you can come to the events with us. Because I was the only friend that was outside the gate that couldn’t get in.

John: Okay.

Shannon: You need to be an instructor to go to certain events and conventions and things. They were like, sign up for it so that you can come to all the stuff with us. I was like, okay, cool. I also love this. This will be fun. I’ll learn how to teach, but I’ll probably never teach. Eight years later, here I am, multiple formats and modalities, multiple trainings, and teaching other people. It’s crazy.

John: Yeah, you probably left all of them. They’re all at home eating pizza and ice cream. You’re like, I have Fitnancial. I actually named my firm that.

Shannon: Exactly, and I did because when I created my own business, I was serving my fellow fitness professionals with accounting and tax services. That became my industry and my expertise. I started marketing and actually using fitness analogies in everything I do. I still do to this day.

John: So good.

Shannon: I use it to explain very simple financial concepts to people because it actually is a very similar discipline.

John: That’s incredible because that’s a differentiator. Someone else can come in and provide small business advice or accounting or whatever, but I know how your business is and words that you like to use. I actually get you as a person. Why not let them know that side of you? That’s awesome. Was there ever a part that you thought, well, this isn’t work-related, never shall the two touch?

Shannon: Oh, no, I loved it. I actually would integrate a lot of it. I invited all my coworkers to my classes knowing they would never come, but I made it very well known that, I have class tonight, or I have class this morning, and I’m coming from the gym or I’m doing — I would say, I need to leave early today to go teach class. When Shannon has to go teach class, it was almost like I have an MBA class. It was no different than I have to go, and I have class tonight. Because that was a priority and that was a boundary I set to say, on these days of the week, I have to go teach. It was also a great way of seeing alignment in values with a company because I say, if me leaving for a half hour early on a certain day of the week, comes between me doing my job or not, then I don’t think you understand.

John: Me as a person.

Shannon: Right. You don’t think I’m going to get it done. I just loved integrating the two. I also did sessions at work for other coworkers. I actually led weekly walks to just get our asses out of the office and go do a walk around the campus. We were working in an office park, and I would do a walk around the campus and get everyone just to get out of their chairs, and do walking meetings together. Instead of like a big staff meeting, let’s just all go for a walk and talk while we’re there. We would get a mile and a half done every week. It’s something better than nothing, but we get a mile and a half done.

I would do stretch sessions at your desk, if you’re stuck all day. What do you do with your shoulders? How do you stretch your wrist, stretch your… They found that valuable. They also knew that Shannon was the, not the fit one, but the one that was fitness-focused. I actually had a coworker who, funny enough, bought a cheesecake at the cafeteria and was sitting across from me. She looked like she was covering her test, and I would cheat on her with the cheesecake. I was like, what are you doing? She’s like, I don’t want you to see what I’m eating. I’m like, I don’t judge any —

John: I’m not your mom.

Shannon: No. I probably have my own piece. It was funny because that became part of my brand was knowing that I love this stuff. I love dancing. I love — because why hide that? That’s part of who I am.

John: Right. No, no, I totally understand. I was the same way. I joke that I was too dumb to know that you’re not supposed to. You asked me what I did over the weekend. Well, I went and did this comedy show. All of a sudden, it’s wildfire, type of thing. Do you feel like there’s a skill that translates from the exercise and the fitness, over to make you a better professional?

Shannon: 110% yes because — if you talk about it from the perspective of in fitness as an instructor, for sure, because I had to teach a bunch of people who didn’t want to do what I was telling them to do.

John: Oh, wow. Yeah. You’re right.

Shannon: You tell 30 people to do burpees when and how many, and they just do it. You also — here’s the thing. When they just do what you say blindly, you don’t get an ego about it, but you get used to like, I command you do it. It’s like a Simon Says thing. What’s funny is — you can also jokingly be like, pick it up, let’s go, Carol, let’s go. It’s so funny because you get out so much of that, what you want to say, and it brings out your personality. It makes you show up differently with high energy. It also, what’s so funny is, when you get used to people doing what you say, you actually develop a confidence because they listen to you. They do what you say. Now you go into work. You’re like, we’ve got to get this done. It’s so funny because you show up with more confidence because you’ve been — you know this in comedy — you’ve been told yes without being told yes.

John: Right. Exactly.

Shannon: A lot. When you’re told yes a lot, you show up differently with confidence. Whether they’re actually saying yes, I will do that; the fact that they’re doing it, what you say, it instills all that confidence in you.

John: Yeah. For me, it was like, well, this can’t be any worse than doing a joke and no one laughing. This can’t be worse, but you’re exercising this muscle outside of work that then when you get into work, it’s like, oh, I got this. I do this all the time. This is great. You have to lead a group. You have to help guide them.

Shannon: Also, it was really a coping mechanism too, of, don’t worry, because I get the dance at the end of the day, at the end of all this stuff that I put up with at work. I stopped taking work so seriously because it wasn’t my only thing anymore. It didn’t bring me joy. I just said, you know what, we’re going to tolerate this. It’s going to pay the mortgage. Then we’re going to go home. We’re going to go dance, and we’re going to be happy. That’s it.

John: The more that you’re able to share that side of you though, then the more joyful work gets. You create connections with people at work where you’re like, wait, you like to do that? I like to do that. What? I didn’t even know, sort of a thing.

Shannon: Yeah. I’ve met a lot of people who have the same hobbies or found out that they have the same — it’s multidimensional. It’s not even just one or two things that mark you in a personality resume of, what do you like to do in your free time? We were just talking before you hit record about these bland corporate bios that are like, in her spare time, Shannon likes to spend time with family and her dog and go for walks. It’s like, great. Who doesn’t like that? What else does she do? What was the last thing that made her laugh really hard? What was the… I love asking questions. Instead of get-to-know-you things, I’ll say something like, hi, I’m Shannon, nice to meet you. What’s your name? Oh, it’s John. What are you grateful for? It’s a pattern interrupt.

John: It’s deep.

Shannon: Yeah, I know. We should be able to come up with something quickly like that. It’s a pattern interrupt. It also leaves a mark and keeps things memorable for you.

John: Yeah. I love that. That’s so good, so good. How much do you feel like it’s on an organization to create that space, to find out what people’s “ands” are, to shine a light on them, to celebrate them and make it normal? Or how much is it on the individual to just start that from the bottom in their little circle?

Shannon: I think it’s a mix of both. I think it’s also the corporation or, let’s say, the company or department, depending on what the structure is. It’s their duty to foster it and not let it die off and not discourage it. If someone is showing up with that type of attitude, and they’re trying to foster an environment like that, this is what happened with me when I started my walks. My department 100% backed it up. They were like, go on Shannon’s walks, this is great. They highlighted it and recognized it as a great initiative that I was doing. They promote — when we were talking about different stories, you do have to be forthcoming. I think the people who do have more of that extroverted “tendency” would probably have to be the first ones to speak up and share something like that and make sure it’s known that there’s a safe space to share, what do you do outside of work?

John: Right.

Shannon: Because I think there’s just this hard line we think is drawn that, well, we don’t talk about our personal lives at work, which, fine, to each their own. I think there’s something to be gained by getting to know your coworkers and people in general at a different level and finding commonality because I feel like it just brings you together a lot faster.

John: It definitely does. There’s research at Duke that shows it’s less anxiety and less depression, if you have these other dimensions to who you are. Northwestern has a study that shows that if you combine real life and work life, better moral decisions. It just makes you a better professional.

Shannon: Yeah.

John: It’s just cool to hear that you witnessed that, and also that there’s Shannon’s walks. You didn’t wait for permission from corporate on high to say, we’re going to do walks. You just, hey, we’re doing walks. I don’t need approval. This isn’t North Korea. We can just go on walks, and then you go. We’re always waiting for permission. It’s like, just go do it, and then everyone’s going to think it’s awesome. So many times, I’ve heard this. Yeah, it’s just so cool to hear that you did that. Kudos, for sure. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that feels like, well, I’ve got this hobby, but it has nothing to do with work, and no one’s going to care?

Shannon: I would say, if you have a hobby that you’re truly passionate about, and you wish that you could integrate the two, you feel like you’re leading a double life, that’s okay. If it’s making you uncomfortable to the point where you’re like, I just wish that they got to know the real me, then let that shine a little bit. It doesn’t have to be, let’s say you were into comedy, or you did comedy on the weekends like you did, doesn’t mean you have to go do stand-up at work. It doesn’t have to be literal.

John: No, not at all.

Shannon: It doesn’t have to be literal. You could literally ask in the cafeteria, hey, have any of you been to a comedy show? What was your favorite one? That is revealing enough. You can insert conversation on a get-to-know-you basis that’s just like, hey, I have a fun question. Or you can even — I wish I had done this more, where I actually could come up with cards or something, conversation starters that would have good prompting questions. Because just the idea to get to know each other, you don’t even have to make it about your other passion. I think it’s just getting to know what everyone else is interested in and acknowledging that.

John: Yeah, because I think some people, oh, were you just telling jokes? No, no, I had a job. I was doing my job. When I left at five or six or whenever, after that, I’m doing that and pursuing that. It was a fun hobby that I did at first, and then I accidentally got good. That’s the other thing too, is it doesn’t have to be a business. I enjoy this. Okay, great. You’re not doing it for anyone’s approval. You’re doing it for yourself. Yeah. That’s so good, so good. Well, this has been so much fun. I feel like it’s only fair that before I let you go that I turn the tables and let you pepper me with questions, since I started out firing away at you. I’m all yours, Shannon. Here we go. I’m also a lot nervous. What’s my favorite cheesecake? No, I’m just kidding. I’m just teasing. I’m teasing.

Shannon: Here’s what’s funny. I do rapid-fire questions on my own podcast as well.

John: Oh, okay. Nice.

Shannon: I’m actually going to start with the ones I ask my guests. I’ll just turn the tables back. They’re all around money and wealth, which is interesting. As an accountant yourself, I think this will be an interesting set of questions. What is one investment you currently can’t live without?

John: One investment. I would say it’s investing in me, if that’ll count. There’s this thought leaders group out of Australia, but they’re worldwide. It’s a lot of people that are on their own, doing their things. It’s been really cool to be a part of that community, very supportive, and also learning from each other. Yeah, that’s definitely one that… It’s super cheesy answer, I feel like. It’s not a financial investment. Bitcoin. No, I don’t know.

Shannon: Yeah. I love it when my guests give a ticker symbol. I’m going, no, no, no, no, no, no, that’s not what I meant.

John: Okay, good. All right, I was along the right path. Okay, I was just making sure.

Shannon: I do enjoy hearing the interpretation of what I’m asking as well, because that tells me a lot about the person.

John: Because it’s like, all right.

Shannon: Yeah, what do you mean by that? What is one thing you learned about money that turned out not to be true?

John: I guess just those self-limiting beliefs kind of thing when you grow up. My dad was career Air Force, and we were the middlest of middle class, kind of. When you start to do well, financially and stuff, that it’s not a bad thing. It’s okay and that you deserve this. You work hard, and you provide a lot of value. I think that that’s probably the deservedness of things, is definitely something that I still deal with. It’s not like I’m Richard Branson. Although I feel like once you cross a certain point, it doesn’t even matter anymore. I’m way before even the hill, but if I told my parents what I made, I think that they would lose their minds, just compared to what they had.

Shannon: Yeah. Yeah. I feel the same way. I felt the exact same way. What makes you feel like a millionaire?

Shannon: Talking to Shannon Weinstein. That’s a good start. Probably that and flying business class, an international with the lay down. It’s like, what are you crazy? I know you’re a huge stand-up fan, but just like Louis CK has a great bit of flying first class, and the Internet goes out. He’s like, you’re in a recliner in the sky. What is wrong with you? I’m laying down, full on laying down, watching TV. This isn’t even real, type of thing. I guess I’m a simple guy.

Shannon: The last one I have, because we talked about the comedy thing, is who your top three all-time comics are, dead or alive.

John: Oh, wow. Okay. I don’t know. I’m a huge Brian Regan fan. I think Bob Newhart is hilarious, also an accountant, so maybe I’m a little bit biased. Man, there’s a buddy of mine, Tommy Johnagin, that is so, so funny.

Shannon: I know Tommy.

John: Yeah, he is so, so funny. Even Ryan Hamilton is hilarious too, another buddy of mine. There are so many, Bill Burr, Chappelle, Gary Gulman, yeah. I prefer, typically, the clean observational kinda, just like you look at the world through a different lens, sort of thing. I never even thought of that, that’s amazing, type of thing. Not the shock as much but just telling it how it is and just that no fear is awesome.

Shannon: Yeah. I look at comics like restaurants where it’s like, what are you craving?

John: Right. Yeah.

Shannon: What are you in the mood for? Because I love my Mitch Hedberg at certain times and then I love my Bill Burr at certain times, and then my Lewis Black.

John: Oh, yeah, Lewis Black too, and also such a nice guy. Holy moly, such a nice guy.

Shannon: Oh, my God, so nice.

John: He’ll drink you into oblivion, but he’s such a nice guy. He’s so awesome and so funny even so angry. You’re right. It’s like a restaurant because everyone thinks that comedy is one thing. It’s like, no, no. You just don’t walk into a movie theater and just sit down. No. You watch the preview. You know what movie you’re going to see. There you go. It’s really hard to pick. This has been so much fun, Shannon. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”?

Shannon: Thank you.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Shannon or connect with her on social media and pick up her podcast, or check out links to her business and definitely her Instagram, go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 443 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and listening to it and then writing such nice reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Sullivan Finlay. He’s a senior accountant with Salesforce in Indianapolis, Indiana, and now he’s with me here today. Sullivan, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Sullivan: Hey, John. Happy to be here.

John: This is going to be so much fun, so much fun. I have my rapid-fire questions. Get to know Sullivan on a new level here. Here we go. I’ll start you out with probably an easy one. Favorite color.

Sullivan: Blue.

John: Blue. Mine too. All right, we can keep going.

Sullivan: All right.

John: How about a least favorite color?

Sullivan: Chartreuse because I don’t know what it is, and I don’t think anybody who ever says it actually knows what it is either.

John: Right, I don’t even know how to spell it. It’s just one of those words where you’re like purple pink. Never mind. How about more suit and tie or jeans and a T-shirt?

Sullivan: Oh, jeans and T-shirt. I’m jeans and black V-neck kind of guy.

John: Oh, okay. All right. There you go. Oh, this is going to be tricky. Do you have a favorite comedian?

Sullivan: Oh, okay. I have a Mount Rushmore of favorite comedians.

John: Okay, okay.

Sullivan: That entails John Mulaney, Will Ferrell, a double bust for Keegan-Michael Key and Jordan Peele.

John: Yeah, absolutely.

Sullivan: And then Shaq.

John: Shaq is hilarious actually.

Sullivan: Absolutely. Yeah.

John: He’s a giant eight-year-old boy. He’s just a child, and he can be. Those are all good, all good. I love Shaq. It’s good you had it last. You do know comedy. That’s how that works. There you go. How about a favorite day of the week?

Sullivan: Ooh, Friday, looking forward to the weekend. Yeah. Always fun energy, for sure. Plus, Apple TV Plus shows have just started coming out on Fridays, so that’s usually a double win there.

John: It’s a win-win. That’s for sure. How about more chocolate or vanilla?

Sullivan: Chocolate, all the chocolate.

John: All the chocolate, right.

Sullivan: All the chocolate.

John: There you go. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Sullivan: Star Wars. Although I haven’t seen Star Trek, but I do like Star Wars a lot.

John: No, that counts by default, I think.

Sullivan: Oh, yeah.

John: There you go. Your computer, more of a PC or a Mac.

Sullivan: I’m an accountant, so, PC.

John: Right. That was my default.

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: Once in a while, there’s a cool — or one that likes to act like they’re cool anyway.

Sullivan: Right. Yeah.

John: How about a favorite Disney character?

Sullivan: Buzz Lightyear. I actually still have a sign in my room that says, to infinity and beyond, that one of my friends made for me after I graduated high school. It’s sitting right above my bed. Every day when I wake up, roll out, and it’s like, hey, let’s go to infinity and beyond today.

John: I love it, man. That’s actually a great mantra for life. Really. Why not? I love it. More talk or text.

Sullivan: Talk, for sure.

John: Talk.

Sullivan: Yeah. Text, I always send one-word responses to get people to talk.

John: I’m the guy that just straight calls you. This is going to be seven texts. I’m just calling.

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: You bait them into it. I love that.

Sullivan: Right.

John: That’s awesome.

Sullivan: Yeah, totally.

John: That’s great. Since you have the accounting background, balance sheet or income statement.

Sullivan: Balance sheet and specifically, assets. I want us to own this. I’m not paying anyone.

John: There you go. Assets with no liabilities.

Sullivan: Right.

John: It’s just straight cash, and I don’t owe anybody.

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: I love it. How about your first concert?

Sullivan: Oh, really obscure, kind of, Christian contemporary music band, Casting Crowns.

John: Oh, I do know Casting Crowns. I know who you’re talking about.

Sullivan: I was ten years old. We saw them at this random fair in Mount Sterling, Illinois, super small town, probably 1000 people at the concert. They had a drawing for a Casting Crowns jacket and two CDs, autographed CDs. Of the drawing, I won the jacket, and my sister won one of the CDs, over 1000 people that were there.

John: That’s crazy.

Sullivan: It was insane. Yeah.

John: That’s crazy.

Sullivan: Always indebted to Casting Crowns.

John: Right? That’s a collector’s item now. That’s for sure.

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: That’s incredible. Four more. A favorite ice cream flavor. I know you said chocolate, but is there something beyond that?

Sullivan: Just more chocolate.

John: Just chocolate fudge brownie swirl.

Sullivan: Oh, yeah, brownie batter, chocolate extreme, whatever, all that

John: There you go. It is awesome when they put extreme in it. It starts with the X. They just drop the E. They’re like, that’s how extreme this is.

Sullivan: Right. Including, being an accountant, I don’t think anything else I’m doing is overly extreme, so chocolate extreme is the way to go.

John: That’s hilarious. You know how extreme I get? I get extreme with my ice cream. That’s what happens.

Sullivan: Yeah, chocolate extreme.

John: That’s what happens. Right, and you’ve got to lower the voice. I love it. That’s awesome. How about a favorite number?

Sullivan: It’s a four-way tie between 7, 8, 14 and 37, all for different reasons.

John: Yeah. Is there one that’s more of an intriguing reason? 37 seems pretty random.

Sullivan: I grew up on a farm, and we had sheep. I grew up on a farm where we had different sheep. I had one named Buddy because when I was three years old, this thing would follow me all around. Naturally, Buddy had a kid. I named it Buddy, Jr. When you’re four years old, that’s what you name it.

John: Yeah, totally.

Sullivan: I remember that sheep was number 37. I don’t know if that’s where it starts from or not, but that’s just a random connection.

John: No, no, that totally is, totally is. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Sullivan: Oh, real book. I held out on audio books for a long time and just started getting into it, and I’m hooked. Because I love podcasts and I love reading, and I was like, I’m going to commit way too much time to this. That’s how it’s turned out.

John: There you go. Okay. Okay. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Sullivan: Besides my rugged good — no.

John: Besides your pint of chocolate extreme.

Sullivan: Right. I think a lot of written things. I journal a lot, so, all my journals. I have a Bible from my parents that I have a lot of notes in. All those things that you can’t really replace if things went ablaze, I’d have to say.

John: That’s awesome, man. Very cool. Very cool. I’m sure the journals lead right into your “and” of sketch comedy, improv comedy, comedy in general. How did you get started with that? Is this something that you’ve been doing for a long time, opening for Casting Crowns? Or did you just get into later?

Sullivan: Oh, I wish that was the origin story. I was thinking about this the other day. It might be around that same time. I remember in the second grade, we put on this Thanksgiving play in my class. I remember that in the Thanksgiving play, I think I was like pilgrim number four or something completely unnecessary. I remember wanting to commit so hard to this pilgrim number four and loving it. I was involved in music, growing up. I played trombone and baritone throughout —

John: Nice. A little brass. What’s up, yo?

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: I played trombone too. There you go.

Sullivan: All right. We’re probably the only people who were trombone players, CPAs from Indiana and then did comedy.

John: You had to get into comedy. It was just an event, so tell your parents you had to.

Sullivan: Yeah. Growing up, I always thought I love performing, and I’m ever looking at theater or choir things like that, being, like, man, I think that’s really maybe it. About a year ago, one of my friends and I, we listen to the same like random NFL podcast, and two of the hosts on this podcast were talking about how they’re going to take an improv class together. Last second, one of them bails, one of them takes the class. I told my friends, dude, improv sounds so fun. We’re always joking around together. He’s like, “Yeah. I’m 90% in. Let me just check on some things.” Two days before the class, bails. I am stuck as a Midwestern accountant going to this improv class by myself. I’m like, oh, gosh, all this is made up?

John: Right.

Sullivan: Came out of it totally terrified but had so much fun. I was like, this is the thing.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah. Once you get bit by the bug, it’s fun, and it’s engaging. It just expands your horizon. Especially improv, so many people don’t — stand-up is very rehearsed and written and polished over time, and in sketches like Saturday Night Live, where it’s pre-written. Improv is Whose Line Is It Anyway. Here’s a couple of parameters, work these in, go. It’s like, what? It’s funny though because improv is what we’re doing right now. It’s what we do in life. People always think that it’s so hard and so crazy. I’m like, we’re all improv-ing, really, but it is difficult to do well.

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: That’s for sure.

Sullivan: Sure.

John: How was that first show then? At the end of the workshop, were you able to do one?

Sullivan: First show was scary but so much fun. We were doing online shows for a while. That was kind of weird. You can’t get feedback, besides a bunch of people typing, LOL, a million times on the chat.

John: Right. Which does not fuel your soul.

Sullivan: No. Yeah. When you’re onstage and you tell a joke, you hear the laughter. That’s the greatest feeling in the world. Seeing LOL is a little bit different.

John: That’s not going to do it. That’s just not.

Sullivan: Yeah. The first show in person, I remember after the show, my friends and I were like, that was the greatest rush. It’s so fun.

John: That’s super cool. You’ve gone on since then, and explored it some more. Now what are you working on or have you gone onto?

Sullivan: Yeah, I just started, I got into the conservatory program at Second City up in Chicago.

John: That’s awesome.

Sullivan: Yeah, thanks. Up in Chicago, it was around June that we started. I’m in the second level of that program now. It’s a yearlong program. It’s just been performing improv, perform and write more sketch, which is also a ton of fun. It’s cool because every time I’m in there, I’ve major impostor syndrome because I’m like, these people are hilarious. I think I’m moderately funny, but these people are so good. It’s where a bunch of people from SNL and a bunch of people have come from.

John: Colbert, Colbert was an understudy there.

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: He wasn’t even like the guy. Yeah, there’s so much of that.

Sullivan: Yeah, it’s crazy, but it’s just cool because you’re learning from some of the best and performing with some of the best. Yeah, it’s great.

John: Yeah, and creating. It’s a collaboration of sorts. In stand-up, it’s very much solo. It’s a different game. When you’re collaborating on a sketch, what about this? What about that? Some people are really good at the dialogues. Some people are really good at the scenes. It takes all of you to create this really great sketch.

Sullivan: Totally. Yeah.

John: That’s super cool, man. Have you guys been able to do any shows up there in Chicago?

Sullivan: Yeah, yeah, we’ve done a couple. We just did pretty much an all-sketch show, few weeks ago, and then throw in a little bit improv at the end, to get the people excited.

John: Right. He said my word. Yay!

Sullivan: Yeah. Every other time, it’s pineapple.

John: Oh, Lord.

Sullivan: All right. Yeah, it’s so fun. We’ve gotten to perform on a few different stages there, which is just, again, it’s cool to be like, oh, I’m doing Steve Carell’s part on this stage right now. That’s something I wouldn’t have imagined, a few years ago. Yeah.

John: No, that’s great, man. Kudos. It takes some guts to just throw yourself out there. Also, just keep in mind, it’s something that you enjoy.

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: You’re paying for it. Once they start paying you, that’s when it becomes different.

Sullivan: Right.

John: You enjoy it. Embrace it. I think that’s awesome, man.

Sullivan: Totally, yeah.

John: Do you have a favorite story or something from a show or something that’s come up, where you’re just like, man, that was really cool, or that was really weird, or something?

Sullivan: Yeah. Something really weird, for sure, I can think of this last show. It was the sketch portion of the show. I was in a scene and had to rush offstage. In the next scene, for a reason, I was shirtless. That 30 seconds of just taking your shirt off before you have to sprint onstage. It was like, this is probably the same high that people get, skydiving, which I’m okay with avoiding. The adrenaline rush behind stage, just doing all this stuff, running around, people are going crazy, that was a lot of fun.

John: Yeah. That’s awesome. Because, to make the magic onstage, no one realizes the behind the scenes of what’s going on behind that curtain. That’s part ridiculously hilarious because we’re goofing around. The other part is super serious. I’ve got to get back out there as a totally different character with my shirt off and then this. You’re like, what is going on? Yeah, that is not something that you do every day.

Sullivan: Oh, definitely not.

John: Do you feel at all, there’s a skill set from when you started comedy that translates over to your career?

Sullivan: Yeah, I think so. Especially in improv, there’s the whole concept of, yes and. You are taking whatever somebody is saying and building upon it. For me, being the accountant, perfectionist type, being able to just go onstage or practice with a group of friends and just being able to fail is so cool. Where else can you just do that and be okay? To me, it helped me realize, in my career, the world’s not going to end because I flipped the signs on a journal entry or something.

John: Right?

Sullivan: It’s still going to keep clicking. I think too, feedback, being able to accept that, especially in stand-up. There’s no worse feedback in the moment than just bombing and nobody laughing at all.

John: Oh, no.

Sullivan: The other day, my manager was pinging me. He’s like, yeah, sorry, man, if that’s really harsh feedback or whatever. It’s like, dude, this is nothing. You can say whatever you want.

John: Right? Just as long as you laugh when I say something funny, we’re all good. Other than that, you can say whatever you want about my work.

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: If I crack a joke, you better laugh.

Sullivan: Oh, my gosh, yeah. He messaged back. I think it was just like, boo. I was like, okay.

John: Okay, now it’s over. Now you’re dead to me. That’s such great insight, and it’s cool that you’re able to recognize it in the moment. I mostly didn’t until after the fact. I was like, oh, wow, what do you know? That actually did make me better.

Sullivan: Yeah, definitely.

John: Is this something that you talk about at work or coworkers know about or maybe have a small circle?

Sullivan: Yeah, definitely grew, over time. At first, especially I was in public accounting at the time when I first started, I was like, well, this is the complete opposite thing of what I do professionally.

John: Right, right.

Sullivan: I was like, I don’t know how people are going to respond to this, and was almost embarrassed by it, at first. Then I started talking to people, and they’re like, dude, that’s so cool. Also, this makes sense. It makes sense that you’re the one doing this. I’m like, yeah, I guess I am always just doing bits and messing around in those clients’ conference room.

John: Why not?

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: Right?

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: We have to be there for so long.

Sullivan: Right. Yeah. This audit is pretty serious, so we need to spice it up a little bit.

John: Right. That’s hilarious.

Sullivan: Yeah, so, over time, it just became more and more people that I told. Suddenly, I was like, oh, he’s the guy who’s doing improv or writing or things like that. I’m like, oh, this kind of grew, and people are okay with it and even like it. That’s weird.

John: Yeah.

Sullivan: Yeah, it’s cool.

John: Yeah, and it’s cool to hear that that’s what happened because I feel like so much of that is in our own heads. 99.99% of it isn’t our own heads.

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: You start to share, and then it’s cool, and then it’s a little bit of wild — I don’t even know who you are. How do you know? type of thing.

Sullivan: It’s funny, talking with both groups too, where comedian friends, I’m like, oh, I’m an accountant professionally. They’re like, okay, this guy.

John: Right. They’re going to ask you all the tax questions from February and March.

Sullivan: Literally, one of my friends, early this year, almost committed tax evasion. I was like, why are you talking to me about this?

John: Comedians are like, I got paid in cash. It doesn’t count, right? If you don’t put in your bank account, then maybe.

Sullivan: That’s one side. Then when I tell my accounting coworkers that I do comedy, they’re like, oh, dude, you’re so brave. Thanks, I guess. Yeah, I’ll take it.

John: Actually, yeah, the comedians are probably say the same. They’re like, you’re so brave. You get up at 7am to go to an office and put on an ironed shirt. What is going on?

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: Yeah. That’s cool, though. That’s cool that you shared a little bit, and then the feedback. That’s encouraging for everybody listening really. Also, too that people started to then know you. People maybe didn’t even know who Sullivan was, or they kind of did. Now, it’s going to be like me where, 12 years later, they’re going to be like, aren’t you the guy that did sketch?

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: It’s like, actually, I am. Yeah. I think we all deserve that because you put in way too many hours to be forgotten.

Sullivan: Oh, my gosh, yeah. It’s just such a big part of who I am. This is something I love. I try to encourage friends all the time, be like, yo, chase after this thing and tell people about it because it will encourage other people too.

John: Yeah. No matter what level it gets to, even if it’s just a hobby, and you’re paying to do it, so what? You enjoy it, and that’s awesome. How much do you feel like it’s on the organization to maybe encourage that and foster that? Or how much is it on the individual to maybe just create it in the small circles, like, I guess, how you did?

Sullivan: I think it’s a mix. I’m at Salesforce, and I think they do a really good job of taking this work-life balance and being serious about it. My coworkers and I have different hobbies, and we encourage each other to keep doing it.

John: That’s great.

Sullivan: Which has been awesome, yeah. I think it’s on both the individual and the organization. I think the organization should be like, yes, this is work-life balance, and it’s not just a buzzword. The individual too, like, hey, I’m going to turn off my computer at this time. Especially working remotely, that can be really hard. I’m getting offline. I’m going to go do this thing. I’m not in Excel anymore. I’m just going to go improv or whatever. There’s ownership on both sides, I think, for sure.

John: Yeah. You’ll get the work done. It’s not that. It’s just, I have something else that’s important to me also. That’s cool to hear that they make time for that, and then just how you’re each encouraging each other to live your best life really, which is great because some places, it’s the opposite. It’s, hey, I’m going to go do this; and it’s like, why? You should be, rah-rah. Oh, Lord. It’s encouraging to hear that that’s what you’re experiencing.

Sullivan: Definitely.

John: Which is very cool. Is there anything specific that Salesforce does? Or is it more of just leading by example, from leadership positions?

Sullivan: I think a lot of it is leadership by example, from different leadership positions. I know my manager and my manager’s manager are, like, hey, as long as you get the work done, we don’t really care what you do. It looks at the individual, holistically, being like, you have all these different parts to yourself. Make sure you’re prioritizing each of these because guess what? We’re going to get the best employee at the end of the day because of that.

John: Right.

Sullivan: I think it’s been really, in my team’s at least, my different managers have been really great about leading at that.

John: That’s awesome. Before we do wrap this up, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe their hobby has nothing to do with their career, or in your case, it was almost the opposite, or how you felt?

Sullivan: Yeah. I’d say just, if you have even the slightest itch to do something, just do it. Who knows? It might not even be a passion. I know when I came out of school, at first, I was just working a lot. That’s what I was doing, and I was like, this isn’t sustainable. I started to learn guitar. I started to learn Spanish. Spanish lost out to improv, and it’s been improv ever since. I was like, oh, this is what I’m passionate about. It took a couple of times trying to figure out what do I like, what do I like to learn, and just pursue learning, no matter what. We’re all here to be nerds. Lean into that.

John: No, exactly. Don’t act like you’re not.

Sullivan: Yeah, totally.

John: That’s so great, so great. I love how you said it was guitar, and then it was Spanish, and then it was improv. You don’t have to hang your hat on this forever. It’s just like, that’s what I like doing now. I enjoy this. Then it’s something else. That’s cool.

Sullivan: It’s one of those, for fellow accountants, you can’t just plug it into Excel and figure it out. There’s no VLOOKUP for improv. You just have to go out and do it.

John: Yeah. In all the things, you have to go out and just do it. If you’re in a sketch where you’re singing in Spanish, then you’ve brought it all together, and I will be very impressed. That’s awesome, man. Well, before I do wrap this up, I feel like it’s only fair that I turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Sullivan Finlay podcast. Thanks for having me on. I’m all yours. If you have any questions, fire away.

Sullivan: Absolutely. I’m going to call this What’s Your Yes, And?

John: Oh, I see what you’re doing there with the improv side. Okay.

Sullivan: Absolutely. Okay. This is a question I ask everyone. There’s no wrong answer. What is your favorite color of STOP sign, and why?

John: Oh, my favorite color of STOP sign. I’m just going to go red, yes, and…

Sullivan: There it is.

John: Because that’s the one that most people know. I feel like if we change the color, then idiots will just drive through it.

Sullivan: Good.

John: I wish that it was another color, but I think just out of practicality and how much I’ve been around the general public in my life and having done comedy in front of strangers, let’s just go simple.

Sullivan: I like this, prioritize safety.

John: Well, it’s more of just, I’m going to hit you if you don’t stop because I’m not stopping.

Sullivan: Right, right. Okay, we connected on low brass. What is your favorite trombone slide position?

John: Oh, that’s a good one. Third is good because you can cheat because you can grab the bell.

Sullivan: Yes.

John: It’s third position is probably the cheat one for me.

Sullivan: I was thinking third as well, for the same reason. Or like the ones that have the little F attachment, like the trigger.

John: Oh. Yeah, I never went to that level.

Sullivan: You can play in first, but it’s actually sixth.

John: Right. Yeah, exactly.

Sullivan: However you can cheat, that’s what we’re learning.

John: Pretty much. Pretty much. Yes.

Sullivan: Okay, we’re both accountants or past accountants. What is your favorite tax deduction?

John: Oh, wow. Okay. This podcast does not provide tax advice, but when I was doing comedy, mileage, easily.

Sullivan: Nice.

John: Because I was driving my Honda Civic everywhere.

Sullivan: Totally.

John: 50 cents a mile, I was actually negative for a lot of the gigs that I did, from a tax perspective, because you get 100 bucks and I just drove so many miles. It’s like, well, that actually nets out to pretty much zero for the tax man. Yeah, that one or also Netflix because I’m doing research for the things that I’m writing. That was a good one too, for comedy, as well.

Sullivan: Oh, yeah.

John: Yeah, totally. Those were fun ones and totally legit actually, totally legit.

Sullivan: I would hope so. We’re also not providing a legal tax advice.

John: Right, statute of limitations has passed for me though, I’m pretty sure, on that mileage. It’s all good. That’s awesome, man. Well, thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? and for just being awesome and for shattering that stereotype. It’s been so much fun having you be a part of this.

Sullivan: Absolutely, John. Yeah, pleasure’s all mine. Thank you.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Sullivan onstage or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about firm culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 441 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. It goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture, and I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Christie Boriack. She’s an interior designer with Angeline Guido Design in Dallas, Texas, and now she’s with me here today. Christie, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Christie: Hi, John. Thank you so much for having me.

John: Oh, no, this is going to be so much fun. Thank you for being on the show. First interior designer on the show, so I’m excited —

Christie: Oh, really?

John: — for that. Yeah, absolutely.

Christie: That’s awesome. I’m glad to represent.

John: Right? No pressure, no pressure. I have some rapid-fire questions here to ask you. Get to know Christie right out of the gate here. Normally this is an easy one, but as an interior designer, I think not so much. Do you have a favorite color?

Christie: Oh, my gosh, what a question for an interior designer.

John: Right? All of them.

Christie: All of them. It totally depends on what it’s applied to, if this is for fashion, for interior, whatever. I would say my rapid-fire answer would actually be white.

John: White.

Christie: I love wearing all white. I don’t even know if you count that as a color.

John: No, that counts. That counts. Absolutely.

Christie: Yeah, that’s my rapid-fire answer.

John: It’s a crayon in the Crayola box, so I think it counts.

Christie: There you go. Yeah.

John: Absolutely. How about a least favorite color?

Christie: I don’t know. I don’t think I have one.

John: Okay. Just in case they’re listening, you don’t want to make them angry.

Christie: Yeah, I don’t think I have, off the top of my head. I think they all are beautiful.

John: Yeah. Well, you’ve seen them all used in so many different ways. For someone like me, it’s clearly vivid. It’s just easy. Red. All of them, all the reds, all the maroon. All right, here’s one for sure. Shower or bath.

Christie: Shower.

John: Shower.

Christie: Yeah. Bath every once in a while, but we do our best thinking in the shower.

John: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, yeah. That’s a good point. How about a favorite day of the week?

Christie: I would have to say Saturday.

John: Nice.

Christie: Probably most people’s, but that day, I get to do whatever I want whenever I want. No one’s waiting on me, most of the time.

John: There you go. Finally, my day.

Christie: There’ a lot of freedom.

John: Right? There you go. There you go. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw puzzle?

Christie: Oh, wow. Do Legos count?

John: Legos, yes. I love that. That’s a great answer. That’s a great answer.

Christie: I’m going to answer with Legos.

John: Nice.

Christie: Yeah. I think Legos would top all those options.

John: Awesome. Love it. Actually, I’m going to have to agree with you on that one. That’s a trick question. Legos is the only right answer. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Christie: I love Bradley Cooper.

John: Oh, yeah.

Christie: Yeah.

John: He’s funny and good. Yeah.

Christie: Funny, good, only better with age.

John: He’s a wine. That’s what he is.

Christie: He’s a wine.

John: Bradley Cooper wine.

Christie: Yes.

John: How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Christie: I don’t think I can really claim to be a huge fan of either one, but if I had to say, probably Star Wars just because I have sentimental memories watching that with my brothers and family, growing up. Yeah, classic.

John: If you had to pick. There you go. How about your computer, more PC or a Mac?

Christie: PC, for sure.

John: Oh, really? Okay.

Christie: Well, a lot of interior design software is not compatible or not very well used with a Mac, so I’ve just learned that PC is the easiest way to go for me.

John: I’m PC all the way as well, but I figured, with the design stuff that, yeah, Mac, they’re just acting like they’re cool.

Christie: Yes, surprisingly, too cool for school.

John: Right, right. There it is. How about more heels or flats?

Christie: Heels, oh, for sure. There’s so much power in them.

John: Right? When I wear my heel — okay, I don’t.

Christie: The clickety-clack sound, the extra height, everything, yeah, definitely more power to those women who can wear heels, and some men out there.

John: Yeah, I would have two broken ankles in about three seconds, so we’re all good on that. It’s impressive, for sure. Not that I’ve tried. One of my “ands” is ice cream. What, did you have a favorite ice cream flavor?

Christie: I would have to say cookie dough ice cream is definitely my go-to, yeah, most favorite.

John: Excellent choice. Excellent choice. How about more talk or text?

Christie: Talk, always. I’m that annoying person that will answer a text with a phone call. Yeah.

John: Right.

Christie: A lot of people don’t like that, but I hate the time it takes. I’m so bad at answering text. I don’t get back to people, and it makes me feel like a horrible person. They’ll emphasize the text message with that question mark or exclamation point. I’m like, oh, I got to give them a call and just get this over with.

John: Right? What’s with the attitude?

Christie: Really, FaceTime, honestly, over all of those. I’m a FaceTimer more than I am even a caller.

John: There you go. Nice. Yeah. How about a first concert?

Christie: Oh, my gosh. I grew up in a Christian home, and my mom loved just pop, rock and roll version of Christian music, horrible stuff.

John: Sure. Yeah.

Christie: I doubt many of your listeners will know, but my first concert was a TobyMac concert. I don’t know if he even does music anymore. He’s got to be ancient by now. At the same time, it wouldn’t totally surprise me if he does. Yeah, that was my first ever concert. It was very, yeah, this poppy Christian music.

John: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That’s awesome. That’s so cool. How about a favorite number?

Christie: Seven, the number of completion.

John: Yeah. Is there a reason?

Christie: I think it’s just known as the number of completion in the Bible.

John: Oh, yeah.

Christie: I don’t know. It’s always just been my favorite number.

John: No, it’s one of mine, for sure. Yeah, very popular answer. How about books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Christie: Audio book. I love a good audio book. I’ve been trying to get more into physical books lately and learn to be a little bit of a faster reader. It takes me months to finish a paper book. Audio books, I love. I feel like I’m watching a movie.

John: I feel like I should record me reading my book, a YouTube video of me reading the book.

Christie: You should.

John: Then you can get to…

Christie: A book is always better read by the author.

John: Yeah. I did the audio version for mine. It’s not easy, and I wrote it.

Christie: What is that process like?

John: It’s like recording an album, I would imagine. It was about eight hours in a studio over two days.

Christie: Oh, my gosh.

John: Yeah, and somebody listening to every single word you say to make sure that you don’t switch words or skip a word. It’s an interesting study in what your brain does. Because when you’re reading, you’ll mix up words. It means the exact same thing, but it’s not exactly what’s on the paper. There were several times where I would like argue and be like, I wrote this, that’s what it should be.

Christie: No way. That’s so funny, where you wanted to change your book.

John: Right. The good thing was there were no typos. Because when you read it that meticulously, you’d definitely find that out. That’s for sure. I was pretty excited about that. When it comes to interior design, do you prefer sketching or on a computer?

Christie: I think both are crucial. In the moment, you don’t always have your computer with you. Even if you do, it’s not quite as free thinking as a sketch would be. Sketch always first is my motto and then put it in the computer later.

John: Make it pretty.

Christie: Yeah.

John: Okay. Two more. Chocolate or vanilla.

Christie: Chocolate.

John; Yeah. There you go. That was a slam dunk. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Christie: Oh, man. The first thing that comes to mind are my cats.

John: Yeah, that’s a totally good answer.

Christie: Probably because recently, I actually lost one of them for a day. They’re just your cats until one of them goes away. You’re like, dang, I really loved that little guy. He came back. Yeah, that’s the first thing I thought of when you said that.

John: No, that’s a totally valid answer. That’s awesome. Very cool. Very cool. That works. Let’s talk being a social connector.

Christie: Yes.

John: How did that get started? Is it something that you were doing as a kid in the playground or something that you got into later in life?

Christie: Yeah, so social connector, where you’re open to connecting and receiving people into your life, into your home, into your space; I would say it started at a young age. Growing up, I grew up in a large family. I’m one of five kids. From a young age, very much remember my home being an open one. My parents were really inviting. We wanted our house to be the one where all of our friends came over. I remember specifically Thanksgivings were a huge thing at our house, not because it’s time where our extended family would come, which they would, but my parents would announce to our whole community world and friends and be like, hey, if you have nowhere to go or if you don’t have family, or family that’s in town; come over, you’re going to spend Thanksgiving with us.

John: That’s awesome.

Christie: My mom would just coordinate with our friends in doing a big potluck, and say, hey, it doesn’t matter if we’ve never met you, it doesn’t matter if you just want to stop by or if you want to hang out for hours, you are welcome here. Our doors are open. I loved being around that. Even, I can think later on in high school, this is when it really manifested into my own thing. I would plan with my siblings, these monthly movie nights.

John: Oh, okay.

Christie: Yeah. We would invite, again, all of our friends and their friends and more. There’d be like, 50 kids at our house, once a month.

John: Oh, my gosh.

Christie: Yeah. Once a month, all piled in our game room, laying on the floor, just anywhere you could fit, to watch a movie together. I would get super into it. I’d make tons of pasta because that was what you made for the masses. I would plan a game beforehand. It was just, yeah, something we did.

John: That’s awesome.

Christie: Yeah, I really, really enjoyed that. You and I, even before this went back and forth on social connectors as a gatherer, what do you call this? I think, now, being raised in that kind of environment and now being an adult and acquiring it in my own life, I’ve learned that it’s become more than just entertaining people as guests.

John: Right. That’s very surface level. Everyone’s putting on their best social media face and their best dress and whatever, and I’m acting, whatever. It’s like, just be real. When it’s movie night, you can’t fake it. We’re here.

Christie: We’re not here to impress. Yeah.

John: Exactly.

Christie: That’s a huge differentiator there, is not coming with any sort of expectation or wanting to impress your guests, but making them feel a certain way, is where it’s really, really important. Growing up, I think my parents did a good job of exemplifying that. Especially my mom, she was really good at greeting people. Everyone who walked through the door was like a celebrity.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Christie: If Megan came through the door, she’d be like, oh, my God, Megan’s here, yay! Just give her a hug. You guys, Megan came. It was everyone. Everyone got that treatment.

John: I feel like that’s what my dog says, every time I come home.

Christie: Right, making people feel celebrated as soon as they walk in, and she did a good job of not — even when people were over and if the dishes piled up or if there was a mess in the kitchen or things were unorderly or maybe not overseen at all times. She could be in the corner, talking to a friend with a really intense one-on-one tearful conversation for a second and then come back. Yeah, I think it began there.

John: Yeah. Just imagine everyone feels like TobyMac, coming in your house. The whole time, you’re like, is TobyMac here? Oh, it’s just Wendy. Never mind. Forget about it.

Christie: Yes. Yes.

John: It’s not even close. It’s circle back for everybody. I think that’s so great. There’s more than the invitation and the space to have people hang out. There’s the intention behind it. It’s a genuineness there, I feel like, that’s deeper and richer, which is great.

Christie: Yes, and that is so rare now.

John: Oh, for sure.

Christie: Every day, our lives and our society revolve around our devices and our phones and social media. Although, intelligently used, that can be a wonderful tool and a great asset to life. I think, in a lot of ways, it’s caused this generation-wide disease of social anxiety, especially, I can say, for my generation, as millennials, we are most known for having that. We have this fear of social settings a lot. We have this anticipation of anxiety that we’re going to get when we walk into a gathering. We have, honestly, poor verbal skills.

John: Oh, yeah.

Christie: From not having enough one-on-one conversation practice and a lot of texting.

John: Just look me in the eyes. Can we start with that? Let’s just start with that.

Christie: Exactly. All that breeds this insecurity and this anxiousness. I think providing an atmosphere where, honestly, you just simplify it. I think people think of hosting or think of inviting people into your home or into, it doesn’t even have to be your home, into any space that you offer can be an overthought thing. We can overthink. Okay, how’s the house going to look? What kind of dishes am I going to lay out? What kind of music should I play? What could I wear? Again, we start to overthink and get this weird expectation of perfection.

John: Yeah.

Christie: I think if you just simplify it down to only focusing on the person in front of you in that moment; of course, you might have responsibilities, or of course, you might have things to do while you’re in that space; but honing in on that person is going to just let down all those walls and allow them to be more raw and have that practice of getting some genuine, raw human connection, away from their devices and away from their phones and away from distractions and hurriedness, constantly. It’s a really crazy idea that we’re not used to doing that, that we do the opposite, 90% of the time.

John: Yeah, it’s sad. Especially as adults, we’re done making friends. We’ve already made our friends. Actually, we’ve started to lose them now. We’re pairing them back.

Christie: It’s so sad.

John: It’s crazy. Yeah. I love that, how it’s at your home. I’ve always said, if I’m going to invite people over, this is my home. If you don’t like whatever, then you’re not my friend, number one. Number two, you can go. I’m not holding you hostage. He doesn’t have his fancy plates, or he doesn’t, whatever. It’s like, really?

Christie: Yeah, surprisingly, they don’t care. They don’t care if — yeah, I was over at, it was a gathering of girls. We were having a dinner. It was a group of girls that I didn’t know very well. I had gone over to this one girl’s apartment, and she had all these ladies over. She had such a sweet and beautiful intention to have a really cute, fun time. She had the table out, candlesticks, tablecloth. It had the potential for being really awesome, but I remember, honestly, the thing that sticks out to me, looking back at that event, is that she was 100% in the kitchen, busy, busy, busy, so concerned with, is the food out? Is it hot enough? Is it ready? Is everyone comfortable? Does everyone have a drink? Does everyone know where the bathroom is? Does everyone — where to put their bag. Of course, as we say in the south, bless her heart.

John: There you go.

Christie: It is coming from a place of love and good intention, but you just wanted to shake her a little bit and be like, sit down and talk to me.

John: Just dial it down a little bit.

Christie: This doesn’t have to be forced. We don’t care about your dog barking in the other room. We really don’t care about doing the dishes right now. It was a good perspective to be on the other side and be like, yeah, I really like it when people can just hover around a table or hover around a living room and get lost in each other for a second and allow the freedom to come in, the barriers to come down, and just for a moment, you forget about your persona and your, again, your device. When you come out of that, you’re like, wow, that was really refreshing. Wow, that was life-giving. That was really fun.

John: I love that so much. Yeah, that’s awesome. Do you feel like this skill, if you will, at all translates to work?

Christie: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think your surroundings really do shape your perceptions and how you think and how you build relationships. As an interior designer, when I walk into a space, I am always thinking about the connections that are going to happen there, the life that’s going to be lived there, and how that’s going to play out, not only in function, but on a relational level. I think, yeah, being able to draw from personal experiences and from personal, just rituals and again, this is like a hobby of mine and can be of anyone’s, to make these connections happen and make these moments happen for people; yeah, absolutely helps me in my job, for sure.

John: Which is hilarious because I’m sure at no point in your education did they tell you, hey, host a lot of gatherings or do movie night as a kid, and you’ll be a better interior designer and architect and what have you.

Christie: Right.

John: It’s like, you’re way ahead, which is cool. Is this something that comes up at work? Do we sometimes invite coworkers to things?

Christie: I have before, probably not enough, honestly. A lot of the times, the conversation looks like, what did you do this weekend? Or, did you do anything fun? Or, do you have any plans coming up? I can always say, oh, yeah, you know what? I went on a walk with a friend and then was like, I have some strawberries in my fridge. You want to come up and eat some strawberries with me? It can be as simple as that, as taking the time and the intention to be like, I have you here. I’m not done talking with you. Let’s hover a little longer and enjoy each other’s company and do life together. That’s not really easily explained to your coworkers, or it’s not really something you can get across quickly that you’re really trying to build connection here and not just have a party.

John: The depth of it, yeah, exactly.

Christie: Yeah, the depth of is not communicated.

John: Because it’s like, oh, I had some friends over. Oh, okay, whatever. No, no, no. We actually put all our phones in a basket when we walked in the door, and we didn’t even look at them for three hours. We solved all the world’s problems. It was amazing.

Christie: Yeah. It was unplanned. It was spontaneous. It was at the park.

John: Yeah. That’s awesome. Then we did Movie Night. What? As an adult, that would be incredible.

Christie: Wouldn’t it be so fun to —

John: Right? I would totally fly to Dallas for movie night, totally.

Christie: You’re invited.

John: Depending on the movie, of course, but yeah.

Christie: Isn’t that crazy though? You’re making me think. As a teenager and as a kid, it was so much easier to connect and make friends fast, to where inviting them over wasn’t awkward, if you had just met them. It wasn’t. It was like, hey, you can play with me.

John: Yeah, and asking them about their life and who they are, get below that surface level.

Christie: Right. Where do you live? Who’s your mom and dad? Yeah.

John: It’s just what you did. We forgot how to make friends now.

Christie: Along the way, yeah, we lost that. It’s such a sad thing. Then we learn how to fear or be guarded. The world tells us to be a certain way, and then we get really insecure. It’s so sad. It really is.

John: It really is.

Christie: It’s something that I’m trying to bring back, and I know I need in my own life. It’s not just a hobby all centered around others. I get so much out of this. I need this.

John: Yeah, you’re the Timberlake. You’re bringing friendships back. No, but it’s so true. Would you say that that’s maybe why people dive into their professional identity so much, because it’s safe.? You can defend that. You have a degree. You have this experience. This is who I am. It’s in a suit of armor.

Christie: It’s only such a small part of yourself, and a lot of the times, it’s where your value is held. As long as I’m bringing value, I’ll let you know me. As soon as any kind of vulnerable aspect of me, my failures, my fears, even my desires or dreams, then I’m going to put a guard up. Making friends as an adult, with that kind of depth and that kind of connection can be so awkward at first, but I think you have to just embrace the awkward. You have to embrace it to move past it. I know the place where, a lot of the times, our discomfort comes from or where we get a resistant feeling is where the most opportunity lies, and we’ve got to embrace it.

John: I love that.

Christie: Yeah. That can be applied to career as well, a lot of things, but I think people forget to embrace the discomfort and awkwardness of relationships, people, community and your inner circle. There’s so much that can be benefited there from having that.

John: Yeah, and it’s in life and at work. Those connections that you make in the office, whether it’s with clients or customers or other departments that you’re interacting with, or just someone that you’re working on a project with, just work is better. It’s still human to human transactions happening, even though we both work for companies or whatever it is, type of thing. That’s so great, so great. How much do you feel like it’s on the organization to create that space for people to be able to have these deeper conversations or share a little bit of their “and”, if you will, or how much is it on the individual to just get it started?

Christie: Yeah, I think it’s on both. I don’t think it should be just something pressured on our leaders or CEOs or managers at our company to allow that space because I think it can be cultivated by the assistant, per se. It can be cultivated by anybody in any role. You can open up that space and let others into. I know there’s a lot of people, and even me, myself, find it hard to know where the boundaries are when it comes to, okay, should I be besties with my coworkers? Or should this be strictly a work relationship? At the end of the day, even if they’re not your buddy buddy, you’re both human. You both have fears. You both have desires. You both have dreams. You both can connect together to get that peace of mind, at points in your workday or in your happy hour or whenever you can find the time to, again, let those walls down and find that peace of mind and get lost for a second.

John: Yeah. That’s so great. Yeah, because it’s not getting creepy. Some people, you’re going to be besties with, and you’re going to hang out a lot, and you’re going to know more of. With other people, it’s just a little bit, just a touch below surface level. That’s all. It’s amazing how, when I worked corporate, I’d ask people, so what do you do? They’re like, well, I take this spreadsheet in the night. No, no, I know what your job is, and I also kind of don’t care. What do you do? Who are you as a person?

Christie: Yes.

John: When we leave here, what do you do?

Christie: What do you like?

John: What’s so sad is so many people struggle with that, and I hope people listening, well, either have an answer, or you start thinking of an answer because you have to have something.

Christie: Right. I know people who are so scared to post or to share even pictures online or on their social media, of them having fun, of them doing something other than their work or their job. I’m like, no. I can say —

John: It’s so funny but true.

Christie: Right. In my professional life, personally, and this might not be every field, but being an interior designer, I have clients who follow me on social media. I have people that I’m working with, DM me or comment on my pictures. I think it only is more authentic and more relatable if you post your cat or your dog or your goals outside of your job. I think it’s something that they, at first, was a little bit intimidating to think about. Oh, shoot, these people who pay me to provide this service actually see that I am a goofy person. I can get really silly or go off on rants or whatever.

John: Right, but they’re goofy and silly too, so they can connect.

Christie: Exactly. Simplify and embrace the imperfection and the awkward. I think the more you give, you’ll be surprised at how much you receive in return. It’s awesome.

John: That’s so great, and it’s so true. It just makes me think. If you’re not going to post social things on social media, post pictures of you in your cube, just post pictures of you at your desk.

Christie: On the phone.

John: This is me on the phone talking to a client, doing a billion-dollar deal. No, it’s not. Shut up.

Christie: It’s just a weird mentality that’s toxic, honestly.

John: This is a video of me running to the Xerox machine. What?

Christie: Water break.

John: That would be a hilarious social media account. Maybe I’ll just do that. That takes away from the richness, and I love — I mean, the theme here is just embrace the weird, embrace the awkward, embrace that and get through it because on the other side is a richer, deeper relationship.

Christie: Yeah.

John: Which is great.

Christie: For sure, and I think it’ll start to translate into your career and into your work. The things that most fulfill us are, is the work that doesn’t only impact us, that only doesn’t reward us with a paycheck or whatever that looks like. It’s when you can see the direct benefit that goes to another human, I think, is when we’re most fulfilled, and we’re most rewarded, and we feel most encouraged to keep on going. I think if you practice it, it starts in your personal life, if you practice it with the few people you know, your neighbor, your family or just the person that you’ve talked to a couple times, it’s going to translate into your job and into your work, and make it richer.

John: That’s awesome. I love it. I love it. That’s so great. Before I wrap this up, I feel like it’s only fair, since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, that we turn the tables, the first episode of the Christie Boriack podcast. Thanks for having me on as your guest. You can ask me whatever you want.

Christie: I’m so excited. I love, love questions. Okay, what is something about yourself that you hope never changes?

John: Oh, that’s a good question. I guess just having a sense of humor.

Christie: That’s a good one. Yeah.

John: Sometimes I’m the only one that sees the irony in things though. That’s the double-edged sword of it. Definitely just laughing at things, especially in the last year and a half of, well, why not? Sure. After you’ve been run over ten times, what’s an 11th? Really? It doesn’t even hurt anymore. It doesn’t even hurt.

Christie: No, that’s a good one. Something so necessary and a gift to those who need it at times who can’t find humor in things, for sure.

John: Yeah, yeah.

Christie: Okay, dancing or singing.

John: Oh, dancing all day. I can’t sing for anything. Even when I’m at church, old ladies turn around. They’re like, you know what, God still loves you if you lip sync. You’re totally fine.

Christie: Oh, my God.

John: I can play instruments great.

Christie: Nice.

John: I can hear music, all that, but singing, for some reason, when it comes out of my mouth, is not good at all.

Christie: Missed.

John: Yeah.

Christie: That’s funny. Okay, what is your go-to pick me up for a bad day?

John: Go-to pick me up for a bad day. Wow, that’s a good one. I don’t know. Probably music, probably listening to some fun songs, Blink-182, Killers, kind of upbeat, alternative. I’m going to have to throw TobyMac in the mix now, but things like that.

Christie: TobyMac.

John: Upbeat alternative music, that’s kind of fun.

Christie: Yeah.

John: That always changes the mood.

Christie: It’s amazing how powerful music really can influence your mood, real fast.

John: Definitely. Definitely.

Christie: Okay, I have one more. What is changing in your life right now?

John: Oh, what is changing? Wow, that’s a good one. My hairline is definitely changing, and my waistband.

Christie: That can count. That can count.

John: Also, I’m playing the piano again, which is really fun.

Christie: Oh, nice.

John: It’s getting back, learning that again. I grew up playing and then stopped for a long time. When my father passed away, got the piano that I grew up playing that he grew up playing.

Christie: Oh, that’s awesome.

John: It’s been really fun. It’s also cool because now that there’s the internet, you can just Google a song, and there’s the piano music for it. When you’re a kid, you have to play all these classical songs.

Christie: Right. You have to learn how to read music and all that. Yeah. Now you can just copy.

John: Right. Now it’s pop songs and songs you hear on the radio and cool stuff. Yeah, it’s really fun.

Christie: You can even draw the key letters on your keyboard and not get in trouble for it.

John: Yeah, exactly. Little stickers or whatever. That’s been fun. That’s been really fun. I guess that’s what’s changing, is getting back into the piano again and more.

Christie: That’s awesome. I love that. Very cool.

John: Well, thank you so much, Christie, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This has been so much fun.

Christie: Absolutely. Oh, this is a blast. Yeah. I could talk about this all day.

John: Well, in movie night, we’ll pick it up then.

Christie: Exactly.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Christie in action with some of her social connecting or just outside of work, or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 440 of What’s Your “And”? Follow-Up Friday edition. This is John Garrett, and each Friday, I follow up with a guest who had been on the show a few years ago, to hear what’s new with their passions outside of work and also hear how this message might have impacted them since we last talked.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. The book, in general, goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and now listening to it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this Follow-Up Friday is no different with my guest, Michael Durant. He’s a senior tax accountant with Prager Metis in New York City, and now he’s with me here today. Michael, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Michael: Thank you. Thank you for having me, John.

John: Yeah, absolutely, man. This is going to be awesome. We’ve chatted in between, a couple of times, but it’s cool to have you be a part of this again. Financial literacy awareness is super key. I love what you’re doing, man. It’s awesome. I do have some rapid-fire questions, get to know Michael out of the gate here, ones I didn’t ask last time, and maybe I should have. Seat belts buckled, here we go. All right, if you had to choose, Harry Potter or Game of Thrones.

Michael: Game of Thrones.

John: Oh, wow. That was easy one.

Michael: So easy.

John: Solid, solid. Yeah, it was, hands down. All right, more socks or shoes.

Michael: Socks.

John: How about a favorite cereal?

Michael: Oh, Fruity Pebbles just because that’s what I’m looking at.

John: Fruity Pebbles, nice.

Michael: That’s what I’m looking at.

John: That’s what you’re looking at. That’s awesome. I love that. Great answer. How about your first concert?

Michael: I’ve never really been big on concerts, but I did do — there was one, was it the World Concert that they hold in Central Park here, and they had a bunch of artists come. That’s the most memorable concert that I can think of, I’ve been to.

John: Yeah, totally. No, that’s awesome, man. That’s a great concert. Absolutely. How about when it comes to books, audio version, Kindle version or real book?

Michael: I prefer to read a real book, but time is of the essence. Sometimes you’ve got to hit the audio book while you’re doing other stuff.

John: Right. Double speed and just bam, bam. There you go. You just knock it out. I like that. How about, would you say more suit and tie or jeans and a T-shirt?

Michael: Jeans and a T-shirt. COVID has made me real comfortable.

John: There you go. Because I know you’re a suit and tie guy too, that’s why I wasn’t sure which one would work. All right, and the last one, toilet paper roll, over or under.

Michael: Ooh, I’m going to get hated for this because I know what the correct answer is. Under.

John: Under. Okay.

Michael: I hope that’s the one that the majority rule is on.

John: Against the wall. You’re just like, there you go. All right. People with cats usually are on the under. Most people are on the over. It’s all good. It’s all good. Just be careful if you invite people over to your house, they might switch it on you. People are really adamant about that one. That’s pretty funny. Yeah, let’s talk about financial literacy awareness and how cool it is. Just maybe back up for some of the people that didn’t hear Episode 186, of just what it is that you’re doing with that.

Michael: Yeah. At the beginning, I just started out of college. I started volunteering with organizations, going to high schools originally and some community organizations, and teaching young kids about budgeting, taxes, just understanding, hey, when that check comes, it’s not the $15 an hour you thought you were earning, it’s a little bit less, and importance of savings, importance of insurance, and just the things that we as adults learn way too late in life.

John: No, no, absolutely, man. There are a lot of adults that I’ve met that could go through some of what you’re doing. It’s amazing how our relationship with money is just, it’s complicated because of those reasons that we don’t really know about it or how it works or how to take care of it. You worked so hard to earn it, don’t lose it all, and just, yeah, how it works. I love that. It’s something that you’re still doing?

Michael: Yeah. I actually am giving a presentation tomorrow, based on insurance and wealth preservation for the New York Public Library.

John: That’s very cool, man. Yeah. The library’s putting it on and inviting people to come and then there you go. You’re dropping knowledge bombs on them. I like it.

Michael: Yeah, the public library, especially here in New York, always has great series going on, and this has been an ongoing one. This was a category that they didn’t really have someone presenting on, and they reached out and asked me to do it. I said, I could talk a little bit about it.

John: Right. How many hours do you want? That’s great because everyone that’s coming is at a lower level, and you’re able to just step it up just a little bit, stuff that they’ve never heard about, or reinforcing things that they had heard before but maybe weren’t putting into action. That’s super cool. Do you feel people in general are sharing their hobbies and interests more now than when we first talked?

Michael: Oh, I think so because I think the pandemic required everyone to find something else to do.

John: Right. Yeah.

Michael: I think a lot of my coworkers, when we talk, a lot of my friends, everyone has picked up a new hobby. Even if they had a hobby before, it might have been like, oh, it was a hobby that required, in the beginning, to be around a bunch of people, so now I picked up something different. For me, it was, I’ve been battling my brother in chess for —

John: Oh, okay. I love that you used the word battle. That’s intense. It’s only because you’re brothers, which is why it’s a battle.

Michael: He watches YouTube videos.

John: Oh, that’s cheating. He’s totally cheating.

Michael: Oh, yeah, he’s well-trained. He moves pieces like this is X opening wide open. Queen’s Gambit was a whole thing for him.

John: Oh, yeah. That was a great show. Absolutely. That was an awesome show. That’s cool though, man. That’s new for you? Or the battle part of it maybe is new.

Michael: The battle part is new. We always played board games together. During the pandemic, we spent a lot more time together, and so we started playing chess. I was winning for a long time. All of a sudden, he got really good really fast, and I couldn’t figure out why. YouTube. So far, I’m up three in a row right now.

John: Oh, okay. All right. All right. I think you should just retire. Just be like, oh, I lost the board, can’t play anymore. Sorry.

Michael: Right.

John: As the older brother, you get to control that side of things. That’s funny. Do you have an overall score? Or is it more of just an in-a-row thing?

Michael: It’s more of in-a-row thing. We’ve been playing for, what, it’s been 18 months now.

John: Right. That’s crazy. Yeah, that would be a lot of games. That would be pretty impressive. That’s cool though, man. It’s something new. It’s something different. It doesn’t require crowds or being at restaurants or bars or stadiums or whatever. Plus, it’s bonding time with your brother, which is always good.

Michael: Yeah. Sometimes we’ll just — the board is in the living room, on a coffee table, so I’ll move a piece. We have a little thing on the table that we use to keep track of whose turn it is. It’s the honor system. Sometimes we’re sitting there together. Sometimes it’s just, I walk past, move it, he’ll walk past, make his move. I’ll leave a little note, check.

John: Right. That’s great. I would probably take a picture of the board just to make sure he doesn’t rearrange a couple of pieces and be like, wait a minute, that’s not where that was. That’s awesome though, man. Yeah, that’s super cool. That’s fantastic. Also, to hear that your coworkers are also talking about their thing, is this something that just comes up naturally? Or does the firm have something specific that they do, tone at the top sort of thing, or just…

Michael: Yeah, the firm puts on a charity auction. In the past, the partners would showcase some of their skills, or anyone would showcase their skills. We’ve had people who are chefs who would donate a meal prepped by them, and do an auction on it. Zumba classes, painting lessons, our firm really promotes our activities. Then within, other people, there are, of course, the cliques that this group is into skiing, they’re skiing group and stuff like that.

John: I love that idea though, where there are people that work for the firm that have these “ands” that then other people auction on, to get. That’s a freaking cool idea, man. Because then you’re accidentally learning what everyone else’s “ands” are, and then they’re able to provide it to a coworker. I love that so much. That’s such a simple idea and really cool. I’d have to imagine that there have been some things that come up that you’re like, wow, I had no idea that she likes to whatever, or he likes to whatever, type of thing.

Michael: Oh, yes. One of my coworkers was an amazing artist. I had no idea. She donated her artwork for the auction, and it was like, wow.

John: Yeah. Right? You remember that. It’s like, well, what was her job? Well, I forget exactly what her job was, but she’s a painter. I know that much. That’s super cool, man. I love that. I love that so much. It’s just neat to see ways that organizations bring that out in people, and encourage that. It’s cool to hear that you’re somewhere that does that because not everywhere does. How much do you feel like it is a tone at the top sort of thing, or how much is it just amongst your peer group to share?

Michael: I think it definitely has to be a tone at the top thing. The industry that we’re in is changing. Accountants have been known for being stiff, and we’re blossoming. You’re seeing us in places. We’re getting movies and shows now where we’re starting to show up. I think the tone at the top really lets people be themselves. I think the pandemic helped celebrate that for a lot of people because it just opened people up, like, I want to be myself.

John: Yeah. Right. We’ve also been in each other’s homes now. We’ve seen the dogs and the cats and the —

Michael: Kids.

John: — the pictures on the walls and the whatever. We’ve seen all that stuff. As we go to more in-person, let’s not act like we didn’t see that stuff. Ask about it. People love to talk about that side of things. It lights them up. When you talk about financial literacy, you get excited, for sure, and chess as well, now, well, more the battling part of it really. I have a brother as well, a younger brother, and really, you can make anything a battle between two brothers. Clearly, chess is a battle.

Michael: Also, we both take turns cooking. Well, we don’t take turns cooking. He mostly cooks, but occasionally, I’ll cook. It’s always like, he’s cooking, and then I’m Gordon Ramsay coming in. This is how you do it.

John: That’s hilarious.

Michael: I can’t wait for him to hear this.

John: There will be new battles all over the place. Or you come back and the locks are changed. You’re like, I shouldn’t have shown him how to do that. That’s super funny. Do you have any words of encouragement to anybody listening that maybe has an “and” outside of work, a hobby or passion, but they feel like it has nothing to do with their job or that no one’s going to care?

Michael: I think my words of encouragement will be just do it and showcase it. Don’t be afraid of it. I am very open about giving back to my community in this way. I tell my partners. When I get a new opportunity, I bring it to them. I tell my managers, “This is what I’m doing next week, guys.” Because, one, not only does it relate to my field of work. If you do what you love, it’s never work, right? Also, because I’m doing that next week, what are you doing next week?

John: There you go. Absolutely. It’s a can opener. It’s almost where reciprocity has to happen where you share, and the universe is out of balance, if they don’t share back. It takes almost a psychopath to not share back.

Michael: Right.

John: Or you’re just like, um, I think I have to say something now. It’s like, yeah, you do, so what is it, type of thing. Then conversations flow from that. I love that, man, where you’re just putting yourself out there. That’s great advice. Because at no point is someone going to say, “Oh, really? Well, you’re fired.” For some reason, in our brains, we think the worst is going to happen. It’s like, no, it’s not. Just share and then cool things happen, man. I love that. Well, it’s only fair that, since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, that before we wrap this up that I turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Michael Durant podcast. You’re the host. I’m the guest. Whatever you want, man, I’m all yours.

Michael: Okay, I’ve got a few for you. Monopoly or Scrabble.

John: Oh, wow. Monopoly. Yeah.

Michael: Any particular version you like?

John: I have the Simpsons one. That’s particularly fun. The old school classic one is always great too.

Michael: I have a Game of Thrones monopoly.

John: Oh, okay.

Michael: I also saw the longest game of Monopoly, which is a double board.

John: Holy cow.

Michael: Yeah.

John: A double board. Oh, my.

Michael: It’s a world record of playing it.

John: Yeah, that would take forever. That would take forever. That’s a lot of deals happening on the side. That’s crazy.

Michael: I’m going to give you a couple of more games me and my brother have played. Uno or Spades.

John: I’m going to go Spades, I think. Yeah, because you can play with a regular deck, which is more common, and, yeah, it’s old school. Yeah, I’m going to go Spades on that. Yeah, for sure.

Michael: Okay, and we’ve also been in the physical fitness. Push-ups or sit-ups.

John: Ice cream and cake? No, I was kidding. I’ll say push-ups. I’ll say push-ups because I feel like there’s a lot of ab work when you’re doing the push-ups too because you’re kind of planking, so it’s a little bit of both.

Michael: Full body workout.

John: Yeah, yeah. I’ll say push-ups. Not how many I can do, but I’ll say push-ups.

Michael: We’ll leave that for the next podcast.

John: Right. Exactly.

Michael: Last one for you, of all the hobbies that you have learned about, because listening to your show, I’ve even thought about like, man, maybe one day, I want to pick up motocross or some of the other hobbies. Has there any that you picked up, especially during the pandemic, that you’re like, I’ll give this a try?

John: Yeah, so I — not because of anyone that I talked to on the podcast, but I picked up rowing during the pandemic, mostly because of an efficiency thing. I hate running. Every time I run, my brain is literally like, here’s 1000 things you should be doing instead. Rowing, in 20 minutes, you can get an intense row in. It’s full body, and it’s a great workout. You get your heart rate up, and it’s 20 minutes. It’s like, well, I’ve got that, type of thing. Plus, it’s kind of fun. You can get a video up on the computer, and it feels like you’re rowing in nature or whatever. Yeah, I picked up rowing. It’s something I never thought I’d ever do or ever thought of doing or cared to do, but yeah, pretty much for health reasons and just pandemic, it was like, might as well, why not? Rowing, man, that’s the new one for me. I wouldn’t quite put it on an “and” level because if you were like, hey, you can’t row anymore; I’d be like, all right, that’s fine. It’s not quite a passion, type of thing, but it’s a hobby outside of work, for sure. That’s a good question, man. That’s a good question, for sure. That’s awesome, man. Well, thank you so much, Michael, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? and for, yeah, just being a cool professional and shattering that stereotype of people have an outside-of-work interest. Thanks, man.

Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Michael outside of work or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 439 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. It goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture, and I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and listening to it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Chris Hervochon. He’s a virtual CFO for marketing and creative agencies and was listed as a 40 Under 40 by CPA Practice Advisor, and now he’s with me here today. Chris, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Chris: Absolutely. Thanks for having me on.

John: Yeah, this is going to be awesome, so much fun. I play golf too, so this is going to be super sweet. You’re way better than me, but so is everybody else.

Chris: I don’t know about that.

John: Well, we’ll see. We’ll see. I have some rapid-fire questions for you though. Get to know Chris on a new level here. Maybe start you out with Star Wars or Star Trek.

Chris: Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. Yeah, me too. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Chris: PC.

John: PC. Yeah, me too. Yeah, I don’t even know how Macs work. I’m not even going to lie.

Chris: Neither do I.

John: If you put me in front of them, I would feel Amish.

Chris: I know. I feel ashamed to say it though.

John: Right? They have this cool club or something, this perception thing.

Chris: Yep, and I’m not in it.

John: Right. Well, me, either. How about jeans or khakis?

Chris: Jeans.

John: Jeans. Yeah, yeah. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Chris: Probably gotta go cake batter, I think.

John: Oh, okay. Nice. That’s a good one. Because it’s ice cream, but your brain thinks it tastes like cake. It’s like all the desserts. That’s a good one. How about more talk or text?

Chris: Text.

John: Text. Okay, all right. How about, ooh, this is a good one, balance sheet or income statement?

Chris: Balance sheet. That’s where the bodies get buried.

John: That’s awesome. Ooh, this is a fun one. How about a first concert?

Chris: Cold, the rock band.

John: Nice. Okay. Very cool. How about a favorite number?

Chris: Four.

John: Four. Is there a reason?

Chris: Yeah. When I started, I think, it was tee-ball, we were picking out jerseys out of the box. This was back in the ‘80s. We were picking the jerseys out of the box. My dad goes, “When I was — I think he said he played little league or whatever. He said, “I was number four.” I said, “Well, I want to be number four,” and then I was always number four.

John: There you go. That’s awesome. Very cool. How about books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Chris: Real book but I mostly consume the audio version.

John: Yeah, I didn’t realize how many people do the audio version until when my book came out last year. People are like, when’s the audio version? I’m like, oh, I didn’t realize that there was a demand for this. It’s out now. It’s out now. How about a favorite day of the week?

Chris: Friday.

John: Friday. All right. Nice. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw?

Chris: Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw. I think crossword.

John: Crossword. Okay. All right. There you go.

Chris: Tough call.

John: Yeah, it’s a tough call. Yeah. You could probably do them all at the same time. How about a favorite color?

Chris: Blue.

John: Blue. Yeah, me too. How about a least favorite color?

Chris: Brown.

John: Brown. Yeah, that’s a good one. It just sounds sad.

Chris: Yeah, there’s nothing really fun about brown, my opinion.

John: Right. It’s only there so then the color looks good, better.

Chris: Exactly.

John: Ooh, this is a good one. Since you’re a golfer, irons or woods.

Chris: Irons.

John: Irons. There you go.

Chris: You should have asked me 15 years ago. That would have been different.

John: Right. There you go. A favorite actor or actress.

Chris: Favorite actor, probably Brad Pitt.

John: Brad Pitt.

Chris: Fight Club’s my favorite movie.

John: Oh, yeah. There you go. First rule, there you go.

Chris: That’s right.

John: That’s exactly it. That’s a great movie. Two more. Chocolate or vanilla.

Chris: Vanilla.

John: Vanilla. There you go. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Chris: Favorite thing that I have is probably my book collection.

John: Oh, really? Okay. You have lots and lots of books.

Chris: I’ve got a lot of books. I’m one of those guys that’s got a stock in the nightstand that’s three feet tall that I just pick at, from time to time, that sort of thing.

John: Okay.

Chris: That’s probably my favorite thing. Close second would be my truck.

John: Oh, okay, there you go. What kind of books? Are they mostly self-help business kind of books or fiction, or what kind?

Chris: Either self-help business type books or golf books.

John: Oh, okay. There you go. That’s awesome. Either way, it’s helping something.

Chris: It’s trying to. I don’t know how successful it’s been.

John: Right? That’s true. I’m sure the next book will help even more. That’ll be the one that puts you over the top. That’ll be… Right?

Chris: Guaranteed.

John: That’s incredible. That leads right into golf. How did you get started with that? Is it something that you were playing since you were little?

Chris: I started when I was, I want to say I was 11, yeah, 11. I was born in ‘84. Tiger Woods turned pro in ‘96 when I turned 12. That’s the frame of reference there.

John: Right. Okay.

Chris: I was 11, and we had a new driving range open that was down the street from my house where I grew up in New Jersey. My grandmother and my mom took me there. It was my grandmother’s idea. Took me there one day, hit a bucket of balls, loved it. My grandfather played golf ball when I was growing up, and my dad played a little bit. He dabbled, I would say, and just went from there. I spent a lot of time at the range, got some lessons and played a little bit with my dad. The guy who was the head pro at the driving range, he just really liked to help kids out. If you showed up at the range, and you wanted to hit balls, he would give you as many golf balls as you were willing to hit, one of those —

John: That’s awesome.

Chris: Yeah, it was awesome because it was six or seven bucks a bucket at that point. I was 11 or 12. I didn’t have any money. He was just really good to a lot of kids, a lot of my friends. You just got to hang out there, one of those keep you out of trouble type deals. Theoretically, it worked, I guess. Right?

John: Right. We’re talking.

Chris: Yeah, we’re talking, so I guess it worked.

John: Yeah, that’s similar when I started. Because my dad was in the military, all the bases have awesome golf courses. It’s, I guess, just what they do. That’s where our tax dollars are going, in case anyone wonders. Luckily, I had that resource, but, yeah, my grandpa played a lot more. Whenever we’d visit there, he was a member of a small country club sort of thing, and it was fun to — yeah, because these are people you look up to, and it’s something they enjoy, so then it’s cool to do something that they enjoy too.

Chris: Absolutely.

John: Yeah, that’s awesome.

Chris: It wasn’t cool when I started. I was like this closet golf nerd a little bit. Then Tiger Woods turns pro. Tiger Woods is cool. Golf is cool now. Now my friends are playing.

John: Oh, okay.

Chris: Yeah, it was a perfect storm. It kind of snowballed from there.

John: Yeah, well, Tiger, certainly, he made it awesome. It was fun to watch. He was young and energetic and had some attitude and some swagger, for sure. It’s amazing to watch one person just dominate. It’s crazy because everyone else that he’s beating is really, really good.

Chris: For sure.

John: Yeah. It’s hard to remember that sometimes, when you watch a Michael Jordan or Tiger or something like that, where it’s like, wow, that is crazy amazing. Then it went on. You played in college even, so obviously, you stayed with it.

Chris: I did. Played in high school, all four years, started on varsity, my last three years, and then I decided I wanted to play Division One golf and didn’t really get recruited to play Division One golf, so I went to a school that had walk-ons, open tryouts for golf. That’s Elon in North Carolina. Didn’t make it my freshman year, made it my sophomore year, and I played briefly. I played my sophomore year, and I red-shirted my junior year. When I got out of college, I turned pro, had no business turning pro. It was a brief moment in time as well. Now here I am.

John: Yeah, that’s super cool though, just to give it a shot. Why not? That’s incredible, man. Congrats. That’s really cool, the dedication and the work. The swing’s one thing, but the mindset has got to be something that’s the biggest differentiator for a lot of those players, I would imagine.

Chris: Yeah, that’s the biggest thing, right? Everybody can hit it really good. Everybody can putt it pretty good. It’s just whether or not you’ve got it between the ears to be able to shoot really low scores when you really have to.

John: Yeah, which is amazing. Plus, when you play in college, you get some pretty sweet free gear. There’s that.

Chris: It’s amazing how that works. Yeah, I remember getting my duffel bag just full, clothes and all that stuff. I always had really good deals on equipment. Now I’m paying retail, and it’s awful. Free golf balls. Now you’re buying them. Four bucks a ball, you hit it in the water. Well, there goes four bucks. It’s a totally different mindset.

John: Yeah, the accountant in you comes out there. It’s like, no, I don’t want to be — I should have done a Literature major or something that isn’t good at Math.

Chris: I guess I better lay this one up.

John: Right. I’d like to get lunch after this. That’s hilarious. That’s awesome, man. Do you have any really cool, rewarding stories that when you think back of your golf play, or even now, obviously you play now, some of your favorite courses or a fun memory?

Chris: I’ve got a lot of fun memories, so that’s really hard. Best memory is probably making the team in college because I didn’t make it my freshman year. I was in no man’s land, from a golf perspective. Just being able to prove myself, hey, I can go out, and I can play Division One college golf, whether it was briefly, super brief or not, that was an accomplishment unto itself. When I graduated college, I couldn’t break 80, which was totally crazy. My dad did not tell me I was crazy. He told me, you’ll know when you go broke, and you’ve got that Accounting degree. Here we are. I went from not being able to break 80, to being a +2 handicap in the span of a summer. I made a very, very small amount of money, but it was not zero. That’s an accomplishment unto itself. It’s not the PGA Tour or anything like that, but it was a small win.

John: That’s the thing is a lot of us, we compare to others, a lot of times. It’s like, just in your own lane. That’s amazing, man. You made money playing golf. That’s crazy. Everyone listening would cut off an arm to do that, and then they wouldn’t play any more golf. It’s just so cool to do that, and even, it just brings you joy. Even today, it does, so it’s all good. That’s awesome. I would imagine that you’ve gotten to play some pretty cool courses, over the years. Do you have a go-to favorite?

Chris: My favorite is The Ocean Course at Kiawah. In fact, I’m playing there in three weeks. Yeah, that’s a great spot, an absolutely great spot. I live in Hilton Head, which is not that far from Kiawah, and I was able to go to the PGA Championship this year. Took my son, and we were staying there on the 18th Green when Phil won. He was sitting on my shoulders. He got to see the whole thing.

John: That’s awesome.

Chris: Yeah. That’s just one of those cool experiences that you get from being involved in that world. It was really cool stuff.

John: Yeah. Plus, now, you’re sharing it with your son, the same way that your grandfather and father shared it with you. That’s pretty special, man. That’s pretty special. That’s awesome. Do you feel like, from playing golf or all the adversity that you’ve overcome to continue playing in college and pro and whatever, do you feel like that gives you a skill set the translates to your career?

Chris: I do, shockingly enough. Part of it is just that entrepreneurial endeavor of being used to just putting yourself out there and trying to figure out a way to make money, which, I started my own firm and started from nothing. That’s that same mindset. There’s certainly a skill set that goes along with that. When I was playing golf competitively, I was one of these guys that really had to hit 600 golf balls a day. I was the one out there with all the training aids and trying to perfect my golf swing and figure things out and do it in the most efficient way possible. I’ve been doing that for 25 years, but that has definitely translated over into the accounting world where I started building ways to automate things and putting controls in place, to put quality control guardrails around the work that we put out. It’s always trying to be more efficient. Those two things have definitely correlated over, and just that mindset that came from golf and applying that to my firm, that’s been a direct correlation.

John: Yeah, and that mental toughness. When times get hard, and it’s a busy season or a big project, there’s overtime or whatever; you’re able to buckle down and dig a little deeper because you’ve been through that before on the golf course. It’s just a different muscle set, but you’re like, well, I’ve done this before in a different way. It’s amazing because I’m sure that at no point at Elon did anyone tell you, go practice golf a lot because it’ll make you a better virtual CFO and accountant. It’s just cool to see how much our “ands” translate to our work even accidentally.

Chris: For sure.

John: Is this something that you talk about through your career, your golf, how excited you are when you’re taking a golf trip or things like that?

Chris: Through my career, I have, for sure, especially my last job. My boss played. He’s still a friend. We go out, and we play golf every once in a while. The first accounting job I got, I got because I was a good golfer, not because I had any sort of accounting skill set.

John: There you go.

Chris: Yeah, I went to the interview, and they’re like you, “You have no experience. You didn’t do any internships in college.” The partner of the firm walks in. He goes, “So you’re a golfer.” I said, “Yep.” He goes, “Okay. Did they talk salary with you yet?”

John: Nice.

Chris: Yeah.

John: Nice. Right?

Chris: Yeah. He really likes golf. From his perspective, he’s like, well, this is somebody who can go and take — because we had a client base who, a lot of golfers, right?

John: Sure.

Chris: It didn’t seem like it to me at the time. I didn’t understand it at the time, but looking back, oh, this is somebody who can go take clients out to go play golf, go bring extra work in, and it’ll basically pay for himself. It’s the way that it worked out. That’s how I got, basically, my start in accounting was just because I was a good golfer.

John: I’ve heard that from so many people on that’s how I got my first job or my first internship was because of my “and”, whether it was somebody I met doing it, or during the interview, it came up, it was on my resume, whatever. That’s why when I hear from people, they’re like, oh, I don’t want to share it; I’m like, well, you’re missing out. I’m telling you. I have so many stories of people that — because they can teach you the technical side of things, but your personality and who you are and the other dimensions to Chris, you can’t teach that stuff.

Chris: 100%.

John: Yeah, and we forget that so much. It’s cool to hear that you’re also one of those. That’s great. Yeah, that’s awesome. I imagine that coworkers or people like your old boss, you have a relationship with them that’s maybe a little bit different than everybody else that worked in the office because you shared that passion.

Chris: 100%. Absolutely. When you get to go spend four hours, four or five hours, with somebody in a golf course, and it’s not in a professional setting, and it’s just a little bit more relaxed, and you can be a little bit more candid with what you’re talking about and how you’re talking and things like that; it’s a totally different relationship than when it’s just you walk into the boss’s office and you’re presenting something, or you’re going there with a problem or whatever. It’s just a totally different relationship.

John: Yeah, that’s a great point. Because it’s such a big deal to get out of the office because then you just become a different person. When you’re doing your “and” and they love it too, then, yeah, you just get into the real who you are mode. That’s when magic happens. That’s a good point, man.

Chris: That’s how you relate. If you work in a workspace where nobody has the same “and”, and it’s all different, and you can’t relate to those people; it’s just one more thing that you have to overcome. It just makes it more difficult because I’ve been in that position too.

John: Yeah, or places where they don’t even allow you to share it, or they don’t care, or they really stifle it. Because I found, no one else I knew did comedy, that’s for sure, but yet, people still asked about it and wanted to hear about it. Even if it’s not exactly the same thing as you, at least, it’s cool and interesting. If there’s nothing, there’s just nothing, then that’s when it’s just, woo. I’ve walked into some clients when I’m doing some consulting work to help them with the culture. I’ll walk in and be like, wow, this is crazy. No one looks you in the eye, and it’s gray. There’s not even color. There’s no air. Oh, my gosh, we’ve got some work to do here.

Chris: Crazy that places like that still exist.

John: Right? People come here voluntarily and work.

Chris: On purpose, yeah, every day.

John: It’s crazy. It really is. You’re there more waking hours than you are with your family. Why would you not want to make it a pleasant experience? It’s really, really crazy. How much do you feel like it’s on an organization to create that space, to we want to know about your “and” and we want to know and share it; versus, how much is it on the individual to maybe just start in their little circle or what have you?

Chris: I think it’s got to be on the organization because if you’re not creating that environment, where it’s okay to share and where it’s okay to be yourself, then you’re creating something else that’s toxic. If you have a small group of people, and it’s just this little group, and then they’re seen as outsiders, we can’t talk to them because we’re not the same or whatever, and it gets very cliquish; that’s a problem too. I think it’s on the organization. That’s just my opinion. I think it’s on the organization to create an environment where that’s okay. You can bring your whole self to work.

John: Yeah. I agree totally. It makes it a whole lot easier, a whole lot easier. It’s not impossible, the other way, but it can get weird.

Chris: Yeah, for sure.

John: Back on my career, I guess I’ve been living this on accident since I started. Because when people say to you, what did you do this weekend, I didn’t know you were supposed to say nothing.

Chris: Yeah.

John: It’s like, yeah, I did nothing. It’s like, well, I drove to the city and did a comedy show. Or I went here and played this awesome golf course. There are follow-up questions to that. It’s cool, and it’s fun, and I’ll talk about this all day, type of thing. If they create that sandbox for you to play in, then, like you said, put up the guardrails and then go nuts, everybody. We live in such a permission-based profession, I guess, and world that we’re waiting for them to tell us we’re allowed to, instead of just go do it, man. What are you waiting for?

Chris: Absolutely. What do you do if you don’t understand where your coworkers are coming from, and you’ve got a work problem that you’ve got to solve together? You don’t understand their perspective. How do you work together collaboratively and do a good job? I don’t get it.

John: Right? No, you’re exactly right. Because when you hear people’s stories, how they got here, even some of their why, that, it’s amazing. You’re like, leave early, get the hell out of here, go help your family or your kid or whatever it is that’s going on in your life. Yet, we put up these facades, I guess, of acting like we’re — which, in the last year and a half, has been blown up because we’re all at our own homes now. For the most part now, obviously, it’s shifting. Yeah. A lot of your work has to be virtual, I would imagine, with some of your clients.

Chris: 100%, virtual.

John: Is relying on that “and” how you create that connection?

Chris: Yeah. I’ve been doing Zoom calls since I went full time with my firm. It’s been a little bit over three years at this point. Just ask people, how are you doing? What’s new? What’s up?

John: Yeah. Right?

Chris: Yeah, just start there. It’s really simple. Then, like you said, the follow-up questions come from that.

John: Yeah, it really is, it’s so simple, and yet we don’t think of doing that. Genuinely asking it. Obviously, that’s what you meant. Don’t check a box. Well, I’m supposed to ask you how you’re doing. Okay. Anyway.

Chris: No, no, no, no, no, no. Ask the question and then actively listen, and shut up and pay attention.

John: Right. Right. It’s really that simple. It really is.

Chris: Yeah, it doesn’t have to be any harder than that. Over time, you create these relationships. It’s not going to happen in one-hour Zoom call, and just automatically, you’re besties now. You’ve got to show up consistently. You’ve got to ask the question consistently. You’ve got to ask really good, solid questions that show that you’re listening and show yourself that you’re listening, and then it just develops over time. When you get a chance to go visit with somebody, make it a point to go visit with them. When you get a chance to do something with your team somewhere else — my team is totally distributed. We went to engage a couple of months ago.

John: Oh, yeah.

Chris: Make sure that you’re having those times when you can be present and together because that is different, too. That’s important too, but you can develop relationships over a video conference.

John: Yeah, you just have to set time aside for the relationship part of it.

Chris: Yep, just be intentional.

John: Yeah, that’s exactly it, man. That’s awesome. That’s so good and such great advice for everybody listening, a perfect way to wrap it up actually. It’s only fair though, before I do close the show, that I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, so I feel like it’s only fair that we turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Chris Hervochon podcast. Thanks for having me on. I’m all yours. Whatever you’ve got for me, fire away.

Chris: All right, I’ve got three for you, easy ones.

John: Okay.

Chris: Hot or cold.

John: I’m going to say cold only because hot just gets gross. You can put more layers on, but you can’t remove more. Once you’re down to nothing, and it’s still gross, man.

Chris: You’re probably in jail, in most places.

John: Right. Right. I guess maybe it’s humidity. That’s what I figured out. It’s humidity is the curse for me, so I’ll say cold.

Chris: Fair enough. Favorite sport that isn’t college football.

John: Oh, wow. That’s a hard one. I’ll probably say soccer.

Chris: Okay.

John: Yeah, I grew up playing soccer a lot, and I still enjoy watching.

Chris: Oh, no.

John: — HBO or whatever you’ve got to pay for, or Apple something. Yeah, which we touched on earlier, I’m not cool enough to do anything Apple. I’m going to have to wait till it’s on some bootleg something or whatever, Netflix.

Chris: Not that you would ever bootleg.

John: Right, right. Well, I’ve heard it’s hilarious.

Chris: Now the last one, favorite non-major holiday.

John: Favorite non-major holiday, I’m going to go Tax Day because it’s also my birthday, April 15th, so be a little selfish there on that one.

Chris: Fair enough.

John: Yeah, when you’re born on April 15th, I think being a CPA is your destiny on accident. Although, similar to your pro-golf, I had no business being a CPA. No, just kidding. No, no. It was all good, all good. Thank you so much, Chris. It’s been so much fun to have you be a part of What’s Your “And”?

Chris: Likewise. Thanks for having me on. This was a really fun time.

John: Absolutely, and everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Chris out on the links or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 437 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And?” on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. It goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture, and I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and now listening to it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the workplace cultures because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Dr. Natalia Wiechowski. She’s the founder of Think Natalia in Dubai, as a personal branding specialist, LinkedIn consultant, author, contributor to Thrive Global, Forbes Coaches Council and LinkedIn Learning, and now she’s with me here today. Dr. Natalia, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And?”

Natalia: Woo-hoo! Thank you so much for this incredible intro and for your high energy, John. I’m really looking forward to this.

John: No, I’m equally jazzed. Just reading that makes me exhausted, and I’m so excited I fit into your schedule. Thank you so much for taking time. This is going to be so much fun. I do have my rapid-fire questions, get to know Natalia right out of the gate here. This is going to be fun. Maybe an easy one, favorite color.

Natalia: Turquoise.

John: Turquoise. Okay, nice. That’s very on brand too. I like that. How about a least favorite color?

Natalia: Green. For me, green, still learning to like it. It’s true.

John: That’s an optimistic approach to it. There are colors that I’m like, nope, never going to happen. It’s not going to happen. You’re learning to like it, good for you. That’s very positive.

Natalia: Yeah, give everything a chance. I’m like, yeah, I’ll try. I’ll give my best.

John: Right, right. How about a favorite day of the week?

Natalia: It’s literally every day because now as I have my dream job, my dream life, does not matter. You won’t believe how often during the week I think like, what’s today? It doesn’t matter anyway. Today is a good day.

John: I hit that as well, totally. It’s like, oh, I tried to call somebody in their office, and it’s Saturday. Oops.

Natalia: Yes, same here.

John: Right? I’m like, oh, my bad. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw?

Natalia: None of them. I’m not a puzzle person.

John: Okay, fair enough.

Natalia: I’d rather listen to a podcast.

John: Oh, okay. All right, fair enough. Not even going to learn to like them. It’s like, they’re out.

Natalia: Puzzles are out.

John: Here’s one, shower or bath.

Natalia: I’m a shower person. Again, one of my coaches taught me, forced me to take a regular bath because this is very calming, and it’s more feminine energy. Apparently, that’s something that I’m, again, allowed to work on.

John: Right. Okay, all right. Fair enough. Fair enough. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Natalia: Angelina Jolie.

John: Oh, yeah. There you go.

Natalia: She’s incredible. Almost everything that she touches turns into gold.

John: Right? She’s intense. That’s for sure. Yeah. How about chocolate or vanilla?

Natalia: Vanilla because the majority of chocolate has so much sugar. It’s disgusting.

John: Oh, okay. All right. There you go. How about more Star Wars or Star Trek?

Natalia: Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. There you go. Yeah, me too. Yeah. How about when it comes to your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Natalia: Mac, big time.

John: Oh, okay. All right. Way cooler than me, way cooler. How about heels or flats?

Natalia: I live in a country where the sun shines 360 days per year, so I run around in flip flops all the time. You’ll only see me in heels on a stage.

John: Okay, there you go, flip flops. That’s even better. I love it.

Natalia: Yes.

John: I love it. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Natalia: That’s a tricky one. I think salted caramel.

John: Oh, yeah. Okay, there you go. That’s a little step up there. I like that. I like that. How about more talk or text?

Natalia: Really depends on the mood. Ideally, it is a mix. I like to learn with different kinds of aspects that help me remember things. The most important thing is that it’s funny or at least edutaining.

John: Right, right. There you go. Don’t bore me.

Natalia: Yeah.

John: Right, exactly. How about your first concert?

Natalia: It’s so embarrassing, so embarrassing. Okay, but I’ll tell you anyway. David Hasselhoff.

John: Yes! Awesome. You grew up in Germany. That’s so perfect.

Natalia: I’ve been looking for freedom.

John: He’s huge in Germany. He’s huge. That is awesome. That was the joke here in the US was like, you’re David Hasselhoff. You’re huge in Germany. No one’s heard of you here. I can’t believe that. That’s so awesome. That’s very cool. It’s always embarrassing for everybody. Mine was Metallica. It’s like, what?

Natalia: Well, it’s still better than Mr. Knight Rider.

John: Oh, that’s true. Mr. Knight Rider. Unless he brought KIT out on the stage, that would be…

Natalia: No, he didn’t. I was so disappointed.

John: Yeah, he probably wasn’t allowed. That’s the only reason I’d go. How about a favorite number?

Natalia: 13.

John: Really? Okay.

Natalia: Yeah, because everybody’s scared. I’m like, no, it’s a cool number. Give it a try.

John: There you go. It’s cooler than the other ones. Yeah, there you go. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Natalia: Audio because when I listen to audio books, I can do other things at the same time, like cooking or, I don’t know, cleaning up the flat, just small things that need to be done. It’s also better because when I studied, I always had to read books and had different colors and text markers. For me, when I read a book, I have this, I don’t know what it is, an urge to take a color and then highlight the most important words. So, to protect myself from myself, audio books it is.

John: I love it, to protect myself from myself. That might be my new tagline.

Natalia: Go ahead.

John: Oh, Lord, like helmets and bubble wrap and all kinds of protection, you’ll need that, for sure. All right, two more, two more. Diamonds or pearls.

Natalia: None of them. That’s so zero interesting for me, jewelry and these things. I think they’re absolutely hyped. I’d rather like to spend my money on experiences.

John: Oh, there you go. Okay, that’s perfect. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Natalia: The freedom to design my life how I want it to be.

John: Oh, wow, that is deep, deep, deep, deep right there. That’s awesome. You don’t have to worry about forgetting it anywhere. It’s right there all the time. That’s awesome. It dovetails nicely with one of your answers. Let’s talk dancing and cooking and all these other “ands” that you have, and learning new human potential basically, like with the dancing. Was there one that was started when you were younger? Because it seems like you have a lot of things that you’re just always learning and all that, and I love that. That’s awesome.

Natalia: Absolutely. I grew up in a household with two very, very athletic parents. My mom used to be a professional ice, no, speed skate, you call it, and my dad used to be a skiing teacher. When I wasn’t even able to walk, I remember sitting or being in a backpack, basically, on my dad’s shoulders, and he was skiing. I was like, aah!

John: Right.

Natalia: This just did something to me. Once I was able to stand, I was in skis, and then it was skating, and then it was dancing and swimming, and then I did badminton. I love trying new things. I love to learn new things. This can be in sports or in athletics, but it definitely could also be something totally different. It could be… I played a guitar for a very long time. I still want to learn how to act. I want to learn how to sing. Because, again, human potential, I’m just obsessed with that stuff.

John: Yeah, yeah, that’s so great. When people ask me, what superpower do you wish you have? I wish I could sing. I am a terrible… It’s terrible. Just lip sync, John. Don’t ruin it. I wish I could sing and dunk a basketball. That’s all I want. That’s so great to just want to learn new things, the cooking as well. Did you learn anything new in the last year and a half when we weren’t as mobile or what have you?

Natalia: Yeah, cooking was definitely a big one. I, especially at the moment, work with a dietitian who taught me or helped me rewire my taste buds and totally changed my diet.

John: Oh, really?

Natalia: There are a lot of things that she took out of my diet, and I had to learn about new vegetables, new roots, stuff that I’ve never heard of before. What is this? That was very, very profound new insight on what we actually put into our body and how toxic that is, and then learning how to shop groceries in a new way, how to cook and boil and bake and whatever in a new way, how to appreciate and rewire your taste buds to really respect your body. That is huge for me at the moment. Yeah.

John: Yeah, that’s unbelievable. I didn’t even know you could do that.

Natalia: Same here.

John: Yeah. Right? You’re like, yeah, why not? Let’s do that. That’s really cool. That’s awesome. Is there anything that you cook that’s your favorite go-to maybe slightly guilty pleasure, but it’s…

John: It’s so simple, but at the moment, it’s my favorite dessert. You take an organic can of coconut milk and chia seeds. You let the chia seeds soak in it, and it has like an ice cream-ish texture when you leave it in the fridge for a very long time, almost like a mousse. That is brilliant. It’s very creamy without any dairy, for the case that you can’t eat or consume any kind of milk. Then I do some homemade applesauce, literally just some chopped green apples, a little bit of water, a little bit of cinnamon, boil that for ten minutes and smash it. That, you have the chia seeds, then the homemade applesauce on top of that and then a little bit of cocoa nibs. I promise you this is so delicious, and there is zero sugar in it. No honey, no agave, nothing, no Stevia.

John: Wow, that sounds awesome.

Natalia: So good.

John: Yeah. You just put the chia seeds in the coconut milk and just let it sit in your fridge?

Natalia: Yeah.

John: Yeah, that’s amazing.

Natalia: Everybody could that.

John: Even I could do it.

Natalia: Exactly.

John: Right? Exactly. That’s really cool. Yeah, we’re learning recipes now. This is awesome.

Natalia: Right?

John: Yeah. No, that sounds really good actually. Very cool. Is there one of your hobbies that you’ve had a really cool experience with or something similar to the rewiring your taste buds, that’s like life shift?

Natalia: Yes. I also worked with another coach earlier this year, and I realized that I was almost an addicted overachiever and somebody who is the person who always wants to deliver the best results to make sure that the clients really achieve what they want to achieve. Work is super fun for me, and it used to be my comfort zone. I was not able to disconnect from my work. It was very difficult for me to do nothing. Doing nothing, for me, was, that’s only what lazy people do, or the competition could do something while I’m just chilling or whatever. I learned how to rest, and I used this time to do things that have nothing to do with my work. This was, again, very, very big for me. If possible, every second day, I go for 15 or 20 minutes round of swimming.

John: Oh, okay.

Natalia: That’s beautiful because it really helps me go into a flow experience very fast. My brain, the work that I do, I have a lot of people with their LinkedIn marketing and LinkedIn social selling, that’s a lot of data and analysis, and how can we fix that? Think Natalia, right?

John: Right.

Natalia: At a certain stage, I need to swap or switch during the day into feel or experience Think Natalia, and swimming helps me to reconnect to my body and also to my feelings, getting out of the head. That’s also a very big one.

John: Yeah, that’s huge. Because the mind, it’s hard to turn off. You have to redirect it. It’s always going. It’s just you have to rechannel to something else, and swimming’s excellent. You have the white noise of the water and gets physical. You can’t not pay attention because you have to be doing it. That’s super cool. It’s also interesting to hear how, in your past, it was all work all the time. That was pretty much your identity and everything. How do you compare and contrast those two? I’m sure that now is better, or at least I’m hoping so, at least for the podcast.

Natalia: Oh, you can’t compare it. It’s very interesting. I discussed it with my friend yesterday, and I said I have difficulties to put it into words. How do you see that as an external person? She said, let me draw you a picture. In the past, you were hiking this really ridiculous path, and it was not a hike path for beginners. It was a sophisticated one. In the past, that was not enough for you. You would have taken something and literally whipped yourself on the back all the time while doing it, and not drinking any water because you thought that’s cool, or that was part of your identity.

Right now, you realize this leash or this whip, you put it away. When you go for a hike, you have proper shoes, you have enough water, and when you want to take a rest, you allow yourself to rest. You understand that not only this hike is so much more fun, you will not feel so depleted or seem dead when you arrive. You’ll finally also see the things along the way while you are hiking. I think that’s a good way to describe it.

John: That’s an excellent analogy. Yeah, because there’s a badge of honor of how many hours worked or how hard it was or this or that. It’s like, or there’s another way. You still get the work done, but it’s more enjoyable. It doesn’t break you down, so you can actually do more of it in the end, mentally and physically and everything. That’s such a great analogy. It’s also cool to see that you’ve turned that corner and actually can feel that difference, which is great.

Natalia: Yeah. I just had zero interest in burning out once I turned 40. I see so many people in their 40s, early 40s, mid 40s. I, additionally, went to one of my friends who also coach, and I said I don’t want to be that. Let’s work on it right now because I can’t fix that stuff on my own. Here, take my money, and let’s arrange that or fix it or redirect it. Because this is ridiculous. I felt very proud and stupid at the same time, so, yeah, I needed help.

John: No, but that’s a great call because I’m sure a lot of people, at some point, are like, this is ridiculous. Then they look around and they’re like, well, everyone else is also doing this. It’s similar to when I was working with the What’s Your “And”? I had stand-up comedy as a hobby on the side. When people said, what did you do this weekend? Well, I went to this city and did shows. They’re like, wait, what? I was like, well, I didn’t know you were supposed to say nothing, because that’s what most people say. So you start to judge yourself based off of what everyone else is doing, whether it’s good or bad. We’re all in this tornado of no one stops the tornado to go, hey, this is dumb.

Natalia: Yes. Yes.

John: Like the merry go round or something, where it’s like, please stop it.

Natalia: Because we want to be liked. We want to be liked.

John: And respected, yeah.

Natalia: We’re so scared of somebody saying something, and then we’re not part of the tribe anymore, or people will look at us in a weird way. Yeah, self-awareness is a big one.

John: That’s huge. That’s so huge. Do you feel like any of these “ands” that you’ve picked up along the way, have led to a skill set that helps through your career? Or is it more of just the mentality of collecting “ands” and learning new things obviously translates to work?

Natalia: That’s a good question. For me, I like to collect all of these “ands” and have a look at this concept and understand this and play with this. I believe that novelty is good for your brain, and what is good for your brain will most probably also have an effect on your performance and your work. I have a personal satisfaction out of it, and it also has a positive effect on my work. Plus, what is also quite interesting is that you tap into different industries and fields and then, that’s what I do, is, I was like, I don’t care. How can I take that and incorporate that into my industry, into my job? This way, a lot of people don’t do — I’m like, why? Come on, this is cool. Nobody does it. Why don’t you?

Through that, I believe I have this massive competitive advantage because I cannot be boring, because I keep on reinventing myself, and my audience just loves me because they’re like, oh, what are you up to? What did you change? What did you let go of? What did you blah? It’s a little bit like a never-ending soap opera. I did it for myself, but they get entertained. I’m like, this is amazing. It’s super cool.

John: Right. Exactly. It’s protect me from myself, not you from me. You’re on your own. No, but I love that. It’s that novelty that works. What we do, obviously, is a little bit different, but it’s very similar to people that have jobs in an office, with people that you’ve worked with for 20 years. There’s really no difference. There’s still novelty there. I love to hear how you said people ask you about these things. What are you up to now? Where, if you didn’t have anything, just go right into work talk? From the beginning, that relationship is very surface level.

Natalia: Not doing that anymore.

John: Right, yeah. No, I love to hear that. That’s the example. How much — because I think about this a lot — how much is it on an organization to create that space to allow people to share their “ands” or talk about it or shine a light on and even encourage it? Or how much is it on the individual to either plug into that or start it in a small circle themselves?

Natalia: It’s funny that you asked it because I’m currently working on a LinkedIn learning course with the topic, employer branding and how do you build company culture and working around that. I personally believe that a company is nothing else but people. If you don’t like something, well then change it. Ideally, what I’ve observed in companies, it’s easier when it comes from the top, so, bottom down, which means if I worked in HR, I would make sure I would cherry pick my, let’s say, 5, 10, maximum 15 top talents and tell them, listen, there’s something I want to try. I think you perfectly fit to that, so let’s start. It’s a pilot project, whatever. See if you can encourage it amongst your team or amongst people that you work with, and see what kind of positive effect it will have on the mood, on the energy level, on the creativity, on the well-being, on the health of your team. When you get the yes from the top, or a handful of people who are perceived as leaders or people look up to, it makes a big difference.

John: It definitely makes it a lot easier, for sure. Because, for me, it was accidental. It surely wasn’t encouraged or even shine a light on it or anything. It was just people would ask, what do you do, and then you say. For me, I had a guy remember it 12 years later.

Natalia: That’s so amazing.

John: Yeah, and it’s a guy I never even worked with. It’s like, well, how the hell did you know? What’s interesting, when I was on your show, some of the comments on LinkedIn, I remember seeing some people that were like, be careful because people could blackball you or they could, whatever. It’s like, what? Why do you even work there? We work so we can go live and be good at your job. I’m sure we all are, to a degree, but we do that so we can make money and go do cool stuff, like dance and travel and eat.

Natalia: Cook and explore and experience, I’m fully with you. If you can’t talk about what you do after work or what your hobbies are, get the hell out of this company. They need some serious restructuring and I don’t know what. Because why would you do that to yourself?

John: In case people are like, wait a minute. It’s like, no, you still get your work done. This is all assuming that you get your work done, which I think we all do. That’s why you’re getting paid. You’re not getting paid to go on vacation. You’re getting paid to do the work, but you should be allowed to have these other dimensions to who you are. Slowly over time, I feel like they slowly go just dormant and then fully extinct. That’s scary to me.

Natalia: Yeah. Who wants to wake up in the morning and then go to a place where people just work, and you don’t know anything about them? You don’t know what’s interesting for them. You don’t know what makes them click. If you want to have a great time at work, put in the effort to get to know other people. Ask them questions and be curious. Don’t ask questions and then just wait and say something. Don’t ask questions to ask, but ask to listen, to understand, and make it maybe a weekly task. Once per week, I’m going to ask one person. I’m actually going to listen. If you do that, over three months, how many people will you then know a little bit better? Of course, not everybody will be excited and will want to start a relationship in the sense of, I want to get to know you a little bit better, but I’m sure a handful of people will. You know what? I’m sure that also, when it comes to your job and your work performance, you will get better results, and that very often reflects in your paycheck, so do it.

John: I love it. What a great way to wrap it all up right there. That was it. We should have started with that and then… No, no, I’m teasing. That was awesome. That was so great. I feel like it’s only fair, before I do wrap this up, since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, I feel like it’s only fair that I turn the tables and allow you to be the host now. If you have any questions to ask me, I’m all yours. I’m also very nervous.

Natalia: Let’s start with favorite comedian.

John: Favorite comedian. Wow, there’s going to be a lot. I’d probably say Brian Regan. He’s here in the US, Brian Regan. Yeah, he’s really funny. He also happens to be clean, but he’s so, so funny and also really nice, really gracious. He’s so, so funny. There are so many great comedians that it’s really hard to pick just one.

Natalia: Yeah, it is. Thanks, I would definitely check him out.

John: Yeah, Brian Regan, so funny.

Natalia: Brian Regan. As you know I work in social media, favorite social media platform.

John: I’d probably say LinkedIn because it’s least political.

Natalia: Yes.

John: Although it’s getting there. It’s, at least, informative, or you don’t have to worry about having to unfollow people just because of their uneducated opinions of things, so probably that one. Also, because that’s where you work, so that let’s start with that. Not where you work, but in your space.

Natalia: Sort of. Okay. You are a very creative person. What kind of content do you prefer creating? Is it rather podcasts or podcast episodes, or is it videos?

John: That’s interesting. What’s really, really fun to me is the music video parodies that I do, the funny music videos. It’s taking a song that everyone knows, rewriting the words to it, and then shooting the video for that. Because it’s just funny. It’s funny and silly and super fun. I get to act a little bit. I’m not great so that’s why it’s good that it’s funny. It doesn’t have to be good. It just has to be funny.

Natalia: I would love to check that out.

John: Yeah, I love it. There’s One Direction, the boy band. They have that song, Beautiful. I rewrote it to be cubicle. It’s, I work in a cubicle. It’s all about, it’s got four walls and no door and all this. I think it’s pretty funny. People seem to like it. There are about five or six out there on my website. I’d probably say video. Although the podcasts that I do are super awesome, too, but what’s really fun for me is that.

Natalia: I do get that one. Okay, I have a slightly embarrassing one. How do I phrase it? Teenage celebrity crush, your first teenage celebrity crush.

John: Oh, wow. Okay, so this is going to be a good one. Jenny McCarthy. When I was in college at the University of Notre Dame, I was in the marching band. This is a story I’m not sure if I’ve ever told on a thing. I was in the marching band. It was Notre Dame versus USC, big game, really big game. Friday night before the game, we have a pep rally. I was skinnier than I am now, which is not — yeah, I was very scrawny. I was tall but lanky.

We had our shirts off, and we had spelled out, ND beat USC, or something, on our — so I had a giant, whatever letter on my chest. We come marching into the pep rally. We had to wait just for like a minute before we go. While we’re waiting, I’m right at the front, and Jenny McCarthy comes out of the basketball locker room. She’s at the game. She comes to the pep rally. I’m 10 feet away from her. All I could think in my head is, this is not how we were supposed to meet. This is not how it went down in my head. It was just like, hi! It was hilarious. Oh, my gosh, it was so funny. I guess she lived in Chicago, and it was about an hour and a half drive. She had come over for the game. No one knew. I was just like, oh my gosh, this is hilarious. Yeah, I’d probably say that. That probably works. It’s an okay one. It’s no David Hasselhoff, but it’s okay.

Natalia: Oh, yeah. I just want to say, getting there, getting there. Okay, last one, waffles or pancakes.

John: Oh, yeah. Man, that’s actually a hard one. I might go waffles just because you could put syrup in each little square and then you have equal syrup in all of them. I might have a little bit of OCD or CDO. If you’re alphabetical, either way. That’s a really good one. That’s awesome. Well, thank you so much Natalia for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This was so, so fun.

Natalia: Likewise. This was fantastic. Have a great rest of the day.

John: If you want to see some pictures of Natalia and all her different “ands” or maybe connect with her on social media, check out all the LinkedIn work that she does, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.