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Welcome to episode 501 of What’s your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work.

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Obviously, normally this time, I’m plugging my book, What’s your “And”? You can go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there for the award-winning book. Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Omolara McCloud. She’s a virtual senior accountant with CFO Hub, and now she’s with me here today. Omolara, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s your “And”?

Omolara: No problem, John. I’m super excited to be here today and finally see your face and hear your voice, live.

John: You’ve been following the show and commenting and super fan for so long. I’m honored to have you on. This is so awesome. This is going to be a blast, especially coming from Mexico, international, all that, which we’ll get to in just a little bit. I have 17 rapid-fire questions that get to know Omolara on a new level here.

Omolara: Uh-oh.

John: Right? Buckle up. Here we go. Maybe an easy one, favorite color.

Omolara: Blue. It’s so funny I have blue on today, but blue, especially baby blue has been my favorite color since I was a kid.

John: Very good. How about a least favorite color?

Omolara: I don’t really have one. I like all the colors, John.

John: Just in case they’re listening, you don’t want their feelings to get hurt.

Omolara: No, I like them all. I’m a fashionista. I don’t know if you could tell. I’m a fashionista, so I like all the colors.

John: Absolutely. You need to have them all at your disposal there. Fair enough. How about more talk or text?

Omolara: That’s hard because I’m a millennial and none of us — I grew up on the phone all the time. Now, I hate talking on the phone. I’m always texting. It just depends on the relationship. If it’s a romantic relationship, I want to talk on the phone. All the other relationships, just text me. Don’t disturb me.

John: Just message. There we go. I’ll get to it when I get to it. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Omolara: That’s easy, Brad Pitt.

John: Oh, okay. There we go. No more questions. We’re done. It’s all good. How about, this is a fun one, a favorite cereal from even when you were a kid?

Omolara: I ride hard with Honey Nut Cheerios.

John: Okay. Okay. There you go.

Omolara: Even now. It’s called Cheerios Miel in Mexico because I live in Mexico. Honey is miel, so I buy the Miel Cheerios.

John: I always did like Honey Nut Cheerios, absolutely, because they seemed like they were healthy, but they were still sweet. Everybody’s winning here. Plus the bee, the mascot, the character and everything. Good answer. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw?

Omolara: It’s been so long since I’ve done a puzzle. I’m going to say, when I used to do them, it was crossword.

John: They’re more prevalent. I feel they’re just out there more.

Omolara: Yeah. I think now it’s more popular than it was before, but it’s still, it’s not as easy to buy as the crossword puzzles.

John: Exactly. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Omolara: I’ve been waiting for this question because you ask everybody. Whenever they say Star Trek, I’m like, why? It’s so funny because I was listening to one of your episodes the other day, and I’m like, well okay, so if you had to ask me when I was five or seven, I probably would have said Star Trek because that’s when they had the series on, and I was watching that all the time. Since I was 11, they started coming out with the Star Wars movies, and they come out with them so often.

John: The new ones.

Omolara: Yeah, the Anakin, Queen Amidala, now they’ve got the new, new ones. I don’t even know their names because I’m old.

John: And the shows, they have a series now.

Omolara: Star Wars.

John: Star Wars it is. There you go. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Omolara: PC. I had a Mac when I was in design school. My first major was Architecture, so they made us buy a Mac. I do miss it, but I feel it’s like Sudoku versus crossword. PC is more widely available, and everything is more tailored to PC.

John: Especially work-related stuff, yeah, for sure. Absolutely. How about favorite toppings on a pizza?

Omolara: I like extra cheese. I’m so simple.

John: Just cheese with extra cheese.

Omolara: Extra cheese. I’m getting a little older now, so I got to watch what I eat a little more.

John: Sure. That’s a solid answer. I love it because there’s all different kinds of cheeses. Some of them have four cheese pizzas out there and stuff. No, that’s a solid answer. How about your first concert?

Omolara: My first concert I believe was NERD. That’s Pharrell, Pharrell Williams’ band. It was in college actually.

John: That’s going way back. That’s awesome. That’s super cool. That’s pretty awesome. How about more oceans or mountains?

Omolara: That’s easy. It’s so funny. I was just telling you, I just moved to a place with mountains, and I never thought that I would — because I’m an ocean girl all the way, but the mountains out here are so beautiful. I can’t choose right now. Oh, my God, the green, green mountains, and you’re just looking at them, but then the ocean and the sand. I’m tied right now. I’m tied.

John: Well, in the mountains but you can see the ocean. I’ll give you both. I’ll give you both.

Omolara: That will be nice.

John: How about, I love ice cream, so, your ice cream, in a cup or a cone?

Omolara: I do both. I’m so weird. I have very weird dietary habits. I’m so specific everywhere I go. I know people want to spit on my food. I like having the cone, but I don’t like it to drip because it’s hard. You’re trying to eat it real fast before it starts to drip. I have it in the cone, but I have it in the cup and then put the cone on top.

John: That’s what I do. That’s exactly what I do. I want the sugar cone. I want to be able to eat it, but I also don’t want to have it drip all down the cone and everything like that. That’s exactly what I do. That’s a trick question. That the only right answer is the cone in the cup.

Omolara: I’m glad we’re on the same wavelength here.

John: It’s like a little dunce hat there on top of the ice cream. That’s awesome. How about, since you have the accounting background, balance sheet or income statement?

Omolara: I think I like the income statement more just because I love doing bank recs. It’s talking about doing those bank recs. I just love doing them and matching the bank transaction. That’s my favorite thing to do.

John: There you go. I’ll give it to you. I’ll give it to you. How about a favorite number?

Omolara: I don’t really have one. I’m going to say nine because that’s the first one that came to the top of my head.

John: All right. It’s a positive number at least, so that’s good. No one’s ever said a negative number, now that I think about it.

Omolara: I should have done that just to be different.

John: Right. Don’t worry about it. It’s all good. It’s all good. Would you say, are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Omolara: I’m definitely an early bird.

John: Really. Okay.

Omolara: Even on a weekend, I can’t sleep past 7:00 on a weekend.

John: Wow.

Omolara: Yes. My parents were the same. I don’t know if it’s genetic or just lifetime habits. I go to bed early too. I’m old lady. I’m going to bed by 9:00. I can’t do it.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so great. This is a fun one, socks or shoes.

Omolara: I’m laughing because right now, if I was working from an office, I would have shoes on, but I work from home, so I have only socks.

John: Right. Totally. Absolutely. Socks are the new shoes, I feel like, since the pandemic.

Omolara: They are. Yeah.

John: They’re worn more often. The last one, the favorite thing you own or the favorite thing you have.

Omolara: I will say my purse. I had a purse, a really pretty exotic purse that I was wearing. I had it two years. It basically fell apart. I got so many compliments on it. I don’t know, I’m going to have to get it made over again or something. It was a ball. It looked like a pumpkin or something like that. It had a diamond clasp. I just love that purse.

John: That’s super cool. Super cool. Let’s talk about learning new languages, living in other countries. How did that get started? Did you grow up traveling a lot or…

Omolara: Actually, now that you mentioned it, when I had that NERD concert in college, that was when my mindset started to change because I was in a major that I really didn’t like. I was in Architecture. I was just really burnt out. I was in one of the top design schools of the country. It’s like, you could sleep when you’re dead. You don’t get any rest. No time to party. You’re just in studio the whole time. I was not happy. I went to that concert, and my favorite celebrity, I had a crush on Pharrell since I was 11. He literally sung at me the entire — and I’m not lying. You could ask one of my friends. He sung at me the entire concert. I was like, what the heck? That’s when I started believing in dreams. No lie. This is beyond what I ever would have dreamed of ever. I didn’t even think I would ever see him in person because I’m from Cincinnati. He actually came to Cincinnati to perform, which no big name artist goes to Cincinnati.

After that, I switched majors. That’s when I decided to major in Accounting. Honestly, now, I see that my design background has really played a part in my accounting career because I’m able to do graphic design, as far as my brand, the S/uperhero brand. I don’t think I would have done that if I wasn’t a Design major. I think most accountants are like, why is she dressed like a superhero? Even my resume is branded a certain way. It’s not plain. I definitely have a lot of different interests and abilities that I can do. I switched to Accounting because that was my second choice, and I knew it was going to be easy. It was easy compared to Architecture, so much easier.

Then I decided to study abroad because there was a study-abroad presentation on one of my classrooms. I had always wanted to go to Egypt. I grew up having a passion for Egypt. There was a girl that came. She had a presentation of her riding camels. I was, ooh, I’ve got to do that. Long story short, I ended up studying abroad in Dubai, my last semester. It really just changed my life forever. When I came back home, I never did get over it. It’s always been in my heart since then to live abroad and live in a luxurious city abroad. That’s when my multilingual abilities started to take effect. Because before I left for Dubai, I was taking private Arabic lessons just to get ready for my trip.

John: Totally. I went to Dubai last year. It’s amazing how much English they speak there. Because I learned a handful of Arabic phrases just to be polite, and everyone’s like, why are you, literally, back in English, why are you using Arabic? Just speak English. I was like, my bad.

Omolara: That’s not a good place to learn Arabic, not a good place.

John: Not at all.

Omolara: No.

John: It is very nice. It’s such a clean city, really cool city, for sure. That’s a great opportunity for you to be over there. What other languages? Arabic, and I’m assuming some Spanish.

Omolara: Yes. Spanish, I’m almost fluent. Arabic, I’m just basic, basic. I can say hello, good morning.

John: Well, that’s enough for me.

Omolara: I learned it ten years ago. I learned the letters. There are different letters. I learned all the sounds. It’s stale at this point, but I am almost fluent in Spanish. I can get around. I can travel anywhere in Latin America now because I speak Spanish well enough to do that.

John: That’s awesome. So cool. You lived in Dubai for a bit and then Mexico. Have you lived in other countries as well?

Omolara: These are my only two. When I went to Dubai, I actually planned on going to Egypt. However, there was a war that occurred there at that time, and so it got placed on a do-not-travel list. Since I received a scholarship from the State Department, I wasn’t able to go, and I had to go to Dubai. I’ve always wanted to go to Egypt. I am thinking of getting a second home or a vacation home in Egypt. That is my long-term goal, and to also get citizenship there.

John: Nice. Very cool. Because there’s time. It’s cool that you have these on your radar and on your target to go to and that you have that adventurous side. Did you think that just came from that college opportunity of being able to study abroad? You were like, yeah, let’s give it a shot.

Omolara: Yes, for sure, definitely broadened my horizons. I realized that the world was, I guess you could say, a lot smaller than it actually is. It’s a lot easier. People are very friendly when I go abroad, especially when I learned the language. I lived in Mexico before this, a couple of years ago. Even when I didn’t speak any Spanish, they already loved me. Now that I speak Spanish, they love me even more. It’s like a motivator for me to learn it because, one, as you can see, I like to talk.

John: It’s all good. It’s all good. Of course, then you will be able to converse with people and connect with them.

Omolara: Yes. I love having conversations like with my Uber driver. Right now, I have conversation with the Uber driver. I’m friends with the security guards outside, the security guard at the mall. We’re chilling while I’m waiting for my Uber. If I didn’t speak Spanish, I wouldn’t be able to do that, so it’s a motivator to learn more. I’m taking Arabic lessons now, but I also want to learn French and Mandarin.

John: Oh, wow. All right. That’s impressive. I’m still getting English down.

Omolara: Me too. Me too. Sometimes I’m like, dang, my Spanish might actually be better than my English.

John: Right? And I wrote a book. That’s where we’re at in life, everybody. Do you feel like this skill, whether it’s living in another country or learning new languages, does that translate to work at all?

Omolara: For sure. When I interview, all I have to do is say, I speak Spanish and Arabic. I got a scholarship through President Clinton to go to Dubai. I got to meet him while I was over there. I got the job pretty much.

John: Right. Yeah, because it’s like, wow, that’s different and unique than everyone else who’s showing up with, well, I have an Accounting degree and whatever. It’s like, well, so does everyone else who’s applying. That’s cool. Was there ever a part of you that was like, should I differentiate, maybe pre the superhero kind of thing? Because now you’re leaning into it, but I feel like a lot of people tell things in our head that maybe end up not being totally true.

Omolara: Yes. I’m actually super leaning into it. Before, I had two different resumes. I had my superhero resume, and I had my boring normal resume. I don’t even use my boring. If they don’t accept the superhero one, then they’re not for me. Same thing when I started my own company, I don’t know if you noticed, I’m wearing a Cruella wig right now. This has been my style for the past, since July, since the movie came out.

John: Which is a great movie, by the way. Super awesome movie.

Omolara: I really liked it. It was good. In interviews or any kind of networking situations, I definitely bring my full self. I’m the type of person, I don’t want to hide who I am because if I do, I feel like I’m dead. I’m really big on authenticity which is why I love your podcast and your work so much.

John: I appreciate it. Thank you. It’s just awesome to have you be a part of it. Because I look at this as our message, collective. It’s not just my story. It’s all of our stories, and they deserve to be told, for sure. I think it’s great that it’s just bringing more Omolara to things because that’s what the world needs, that’s what your career needs, that’s what the organization needs, all of that. I think that’s fantastic. How did this start, sharing at work, or was it like, you just show up and there it is, type of thing?

Omolara: Well, I’ve always been like this. I’ve just been an authentic person. I told myself, when I was a kid, when I’m an adult, I’m not going to grow up and be fake like the other adults. I’ve been pretty true to my word, so far.

John: Even as a kid, you saw this.

Omolara: As a kid, I was like, uh-uh, that’s not me. I’ve got to still be fun. Most accountants are so boring. When I listen to them, I just want to jump off a cliff. I always saw professionals as this uptight. I knew I didn’t want to be like that, so I just, yeah.

John: How much of that do you think is that they feel they have to play that part? It’s not just accountants either. Like you said, it’s professionals. How much do you feel like they feel they have to play that part? Because I honestly don’t think that they’re really like that, a majority of them. Because if you get them at a happy hour or you get them at something outside of work, all of a sudden, it’s like, hey, you’re super fun. Can you bring that person to work on Monday? Because that would be really cool.

Omolara: Well, that’s different because you got them loosened up. You got them drinking at that point. That’s why they’re different.

John: Okay. Okay. Right. But it’s like, well, that seems to be more of who they really are, type of thing.

Omolara: I don’t know. I hang around a lot of people that are polymaths and polyglot. Polyglot means that you’re fluent or you speak four languages or more. From being around those people versus being around most professionals, I do think that most professionals are not like that. They’re not, I don’t know what the word, personable? Is that the word I want to use?

John: Yeah. Lean more on the technical skills and the degree that I have, as opposed to the human side.

Omolara: Yeah. We have more hard skills. We’re focus on our hard skills. That’s what we’re taught to develop in school. Even when it comes to child-rearing, I’m thinking, do I only want them to focus on my intellect, or do I want them to focus on compassion and empathy? I honestly don’t know. I’m thinking of homeschooling. I’m kind of a hippie like Bill is. I think I’ll homeschool my kids.

John: Bill Hershey, who was on a couple of months ago, yeah, absolutely.

Omolara: I don’t want them to just go and be cold and machine-like and calculated and focused on achieving and pushing yourself as hard as you can because I must achieve now. I don’t want them to be like that. I want them to be more balanced and be more compassionate, empathetic and authentic. I think society hasn’t taught us how to think that way. That’s most people’s problem.

John: It certainly, when I was being raised, wasn’t part of the education system. I feel like it’s a little bit more now, but maybe by then, it would be. It’s certainly a skill set that makes you much better at your even corporate job. That’s for sure. There are even studies now that I’m reading about where it’s just direct ROI to the bottom line, if you have more of those skills. Especially the more that computers are doing things, the more AI are doing things, the more of these human skills you definitely need, for sure. How much do you feel like it is on an organization to create that space for people to be able to share their “ands” versus it’s on the individual to just show up as a superhero, here it is?

Omolara: Well, like you said, I feel like once the organizations actually see the ROI of it, then they’ll be more motivated to do so. Until then, they’re going to be like, what’s the “and”? It’s just accounting. Accounting is the only thing that matters. I think that’s in the future. I know right now, DE&I is very big. Right now, they’re focused more on having different groups for different minorities and different ERGs and stuff like that. I think maybe having a place where they do what’s your “and” is the next step in cultural evolution.

John: Yeah. Absolutely. I’ve even found from clients that having groups around the “and” allows these DEIA conversations and generational differences to really be a lot smaller. Those differences now suddenly are bridged because we’re able to connect over these outside-of-work interests and these other passions that we have. It’s just a cool way to just connect with others that you work with, with clients, with coworkers, all of it. I’m sure you have some words of encouragement to people. Maybe there’s the 22-year-old Omolara that’s graduating from school that feels they have to be a certain way to be successful. Do you have words of encouragement to people that have an “and” that they think has nothing to do with their job or no one’s going to care?

Omolara: See, my “and” is kind of different because it does indirectly make me more money. Even though I’m not working for an international company where I need to be bilingual, it still helps me land interviews. It helps me connect with international people and/or people who have Spanish as their first language. Of course, I’m looking at it as a different lens as most of the people that I feel like you have on your channel. Their “and” is more like their hobby. My “and” is my hobby. I’m not necessarily doing it for money, but it also helps me network a lot more than a lot of other hobbies would. I would say, focus on doing what you love and make sure you always make time for that. Right now, I’m taking one to five hours of language classes in Spanish and Arabic, right now, per week. Sometimes I’m like, this is so much time. I can be using this time to make more money, but it makes me so happy that it doesn’t even matter.

John: There you go. That’s really it, is that joy and that happiness that you have. That’s to your soul. That’s deep. That’s not just money surface level, whatever. It’s something that brings you joy, so why not? So many of these “ands”, I mean, literally all of them, accidentally help you at your job. Yours is a little more straightforward, but some of them at least humanizes you. Someone else also speaks Arabic or is crazy about Egypt or whatever it is, has been to Dubai. Awesome. Let’s talk about it. You, all of a sudden, have a best friend for almost no reason.

Omolara: I’ve met two of your people. One guy, I think he…

John: James?

Omolara: Yes. He’s then one that loves Egypt.

John: James Perry.

Omolara: Yeah. I met him. There was another one that speaks Spanish, and she likes to travel. I met her too.

John: Right.

Omolara: Yes. Even though I’m not following as much as I used to because I’m not on LinkedIn all the time like I was, I do see some stuff. I’m like, I got to listen to this one. They’re just like me. Then I’ll connect with them and start messaging them and stuff.

John: Yeah. That’s awesome. That’s how you create that connection. That’s so cool to here. Well, I feel it’s only fair that, since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, that we turn the tables and make this the Omolara McCloud podcast. You’re the host. I’m your guest. Thanks for having me on. You can ask me whatever you’d like. I’m all yours.

Omolara: Okay. I’m going to ask this one that you forgot to or you didn’t ask me. Chocolate or vanilla.

John: I think I’m going to go chocolate.

Omolara: What? You have to think about it?

John: Well, milkshakes or ice cream, yes, still chocolate.

Omolara: Okay. Because I was waiting for you to ask that question because I’m a chocolate hit. I love chocolate. I can have chocolate — now that I’m getting older, my stomach can’t take it, but when I was younger, chocolate on chocolate. I don’t know if you — I think I’m a different generation, but growing up on the show called All That.

John: Oh, yeah.

Omolara: On Nickelodeon, there was this set called Mandy and Randy. They just love chocolate. I was like, oh, my God, that is so me. I just love watching that set. I’m still like that now, but, like I said, I’m getting older. My stomach will be.

John: If you could have that and then Pharrell singing to you while you ate that, then there it is. There it is.

Omolara: Oh, my God. You know me so well. I have to take some Lactaid first though, because at this point, at this point, I’m more like the guy that had that lactose allergy. Now when I eat a whole bunch of ice cream, I’m like, uh-oh, no.

John: Yeah. We’ve got problems with that. We’ve got problems. That’s hilarious. That’s so funny. Well, sorry I didn’t ask you that one, but I’m glad that you circled back and did because that’s even better.

Omolara: Yeah. I was super excited to tell that joke. Like I said before, I like to talk, and I love telling jokes.

John: It’s all good. It’s all good. All good. Omolara, thank you so much for just being such a supporter of the show and of the message and now being a part of it. It’s just really cool to have you be here. Thanks so much, Omolara.

Omolara: Thank you. I really appreciate it, John.

John: Absolutely. Everyone listening, if you want to see some pictures of Omolara from traveling or connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to episode 499 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. It goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where you work because of it. If you want to hear me read the book to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, you can get it at What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Justin Miller. He’s a partner and national director of wealth planning for Evercore Wealth Management in San Francisco, and now he’s with me here today. Justin, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Justin: All right. Thank you, John. Pleasure to be here. I love the book. I love the podcast. It’s an honor to spend this time with you.

John: Awesome, man. Thank you so much. As a fellow author, you know how hard it is. It’s not something that you do on accident. You’ve really got to want to write a book. That’s for sure. Awesome, man. I’m excited to have you. We’ve got these rapid-fire questions. We’re going to get to know Justin on a new level here. I’ll start you out with probably an easy one. Favorite color.

Justin: Favorite color, easy one, blue. Actually, reminds me of the Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail, where, blue, wait, no, yellow. He falls into the pit. Anyway, blue is my favorite color. Easy question. I think I’m doing well so far.

John: Least favorite color then.

Justin: I am not a fan of orange. Look, I get some people like it. I actually grew up, that was the color of my walls at one point in my home, growing up, so maybe that’s what caused it. Not my favorite color. Blue, green, happy with that.

John: It reminds you of being grounded. It’s like, no. Here’s a tricky one, brownie or ice cream.

Justin: You can tell how I’m going to answer all your questions. As a lawyer, depends, of course on everything. I’m going to answer both, brownie and ice cream. Put the two together and add sugar to it. Add carbs. I’m going to eat it. I will have one rule and that is no nuts in brownies. It’s dessert. I think it should be illegal. No nuts in brownies, but brownies and ice cream together, perfect combination.

John: That’s a trick one. That is the only correct answer. It’s brownie ala mode. That is the correct answer. That’s a good one. I might have to add a new rapid-fire question, nuts or no nuts? That’s awesome, man. I love that. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Justin: Favorite actor or actress, almost depends on what the movie. I’m going to throw out, you’ve got Marlon Brando in The Godfather. You’ve got Jack Nicholson in The Shining.

John: Sure.

Justin: If I had to pick just in general, maybe right now, I love comedy, obviously. That’s why I’m a fan of a lot of your work in stand-up.

John: Thanks, man.

Justin: I would go with Jason Bateman. I was just speaking with my wife the other day. I know he plays somewhat of the same character, but we love comedy. He just has this dry… He’s funny, but in a dark way. Whether it’s Arrested Development, Horrible Bosses. We’re watching Ozark right now. He just plays that character. His delivery, how he keeps a straight face, I have no idea. I would say Jason Bateman.

John: Game Night. Game Night’s a movie. It’s still on airplanes, I think. Whoever wrote that is still milking the residuals, so, good for them. Yeah, you’re right, man. He’s fantastic. He’s fantastic. How about a favorite cereal?

Justin: Favorite cereal. I grew up… You can tell how I’m going to answer all your questions. There’s a story involved.

John: I love it.

Justin: First of all, love cereal. I grew up, my dad was a doctor. Back then, there was no problem with sugar, at least the way he was. We weren’t allowed to have salt. Couldn’t eat salt, salt causes… No salt. We didn’t have a salt shaker in the house, but we could eat as much sugar as we wanted. I grew up with six kids in the family. She used to take us to the supermarket. You pick whatever, we had literally in our pantry every sugar cereal you could imagine or want. I grew up, you name it, Honey Combs, Apple Jack, Cinnamon Toast Crunch.

John: This is glorious.

Justin: Cocoa Pebbles, Cocoa Puffs. I grew up that way. Nowadays, of course, our kids, maybe you can have some Cheerios or something like that. Anyway, I will say any sugar cereal. That’s how I grew up. Now I understand that it’s not only bad for you, we wouldn’t even eat it for dessert, blood sugar. It’s a weakness of mine.

John: Mine, too. Frosted Flakes. Even if I’m traveling and I’m at a hotel that has the buffet. They’ll have the little box. I don’t even need to eat this, but I’m going to take the box just because. Then on the flight home, I’ll just eat it dry. I don’t care. It’s still good. It’s still good.

Justin: You’re just like me, John. It’s funny, when I travel a lot for business to see clients, conferences, presentations, the stuff I will eat when I’m out of the house. I would never nowadays go to the store and buy one of these sugar cereals, but somehow it doesn’t seem to count if you’re at the hotel or the conference.

John: Pretty much.

Justin: I don’t think those calories count. Clearly, I have no science background, but for whatever reason, if you’re not at your house, it doesn’t count as far as diets.

John: Right? It was free. Somebody’s got to take it. You feel bad. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw puzzle?

Justin: I do all of them. Puzzles, I rarely do. That’s almost like, if I’m with my family, my wife and children, maybe for fun. We’ll do once a year or during the holidays, we’ll do a jigsaw puzzle. I definitely like crosswords. I’m not very good at. I’m not like solving the Sunday New York Times. If I just say what do I do most often, whether it’s just boredom, on the plane, I’m on my phone, maybe most often Sudoku because it’s just something I can do pretty quickly and easily. You can always finish a Sudoku puzzle. There’s always a solution. That’s probably what I do most often.

John: Even if the solution is to act like it doesn’t add up, it doesn’t matter. It’s just fine. I got numbers in all the boxes. We’re done. It’s how I do my taxes actually. No, I’m teasing. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Justin: Wow. That is a controversial question. Half the people are not going to like my answer. I’ll start with I like Star Wars. Don’t get me wrong. I’m a big fan, especially a big fan of the earlier, when I grew up, definitely the original Star Wars.

John: Yeah, the first three.

Justin: Yeah. Exactly. Empire Strikes Back, brilliant. If I had to choose between the two, I’m going to go with Star Trek because that’s actually personalities, what I grew up watching with my parents, Captain Kirk and Spock. Let’s be realistic. Spock, huge fan, Vulcan, live long and prosper. Let’s think about it really. I’m a tax person. If you have to think, look, if Spock was not on the SS Enterprise, probably would have been an accountant or tax attorney. Who do you want doing your taxes? Spock or Luke Skywalker? Let’s be realistic. I’m going to go with Star Trek.

John: That’s the best reason I’ve ever heard for Star Trek. That’s hilarious. Maybe this one since you have the law of background, Suits or Law and Order?

Justin: I never really got into Suits. I saw a couple episodes. I don’t even like wearing a suit. I was so happy when we didn’t have to wear ties anymore. Law and Order, just the music, just the beginning of it, you know you’re there.

John: Yeah, exactly.

Justin: I’ll go with the Law and Order over Suits.

John: That totally works. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Justin: I’m in the corporate world, so we’re all PCs. Don’t get me wrong. Full disclosure, I have an iPhone. I know I work here in San Francisco in Silicon Valley, so we’ve got a lot of tech and engineers that would hate that answer. They’re all Android. Other, though, than the iPads and iPhones, full PC computers in my house.

John: Me, too. Same. Same. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Justin: Favorite ice cream flavor.

John: Because I’m an ice cream junkie.

Justin: I don’t know if you can tell by now my issues with food and sugar.

John: No. I feel like we’ve been cousins for a long time.

Justin: I love ice cream. Here’s the irony. I am lactose intolerant, but it doesn’t matter. I will still eat. I’m talking about, forget about those health concerns. I’ll take a Lactaid pill. I love ice cream. It’s sort of a dichotomy. I go the spectrum. As far as my basic flavor, I go to, I’m a vanilla guy. I love Breyer’s Natural Vanilla, just very pure vanilla. On the other hand, I do like some of the fancier flavors. Out here in the Bay Area, we have a place called San Francisco Creamery. They have this flavor. It’s golden or it’s caramel golden Oreo ice cream or whatever. I would never eat a dozen golden Oreos. It’s just there would never be a time, but if you crumble up a dozen golden Oreos and put it into ice cream and add caramel, I will eat that all day long.

John: That’s funny. I never thought of that before. If you took all the parts out of the ice cream and set them all out, and we’re like, you’re going to eat all of this. What? I would never eat any of that. Put them all together, totally. I’ll have the biggest pint you’ve got. What are we doing? That’s awesome, man. I love that. How about your first concert?

Justin: First concert. Oh, that takes me back. First real big concert as a teenager I went to, was Rush.

John: Wow.

Justin: I put classical guitar as my main instrument. I also used to play electric bass, jazz, rock, funk, you name it, just because I use both hands and fingers, not a real pick guy. A big fan of bass, Geddy Lee, Rush. I don’t know if there’s any bass fans listening to this, but opening for Rush was Primus, Les Claypool of Primus.

John: What? Oh, my Lord.

Justin: If anyone’s a fan of bass, this was the bass lover’s dream. Anyway, that was my first big concert, Primus opening up for Rush. Neil Peart doing his drum solos was incredible. I will add though, just because you brought it up, concerts and first ones, but I’ll also share just because it’s sentimental for me. First concert with my wife actually was, we met while we were both at Berkeley together, undergrads, and our first concert together, this was back in ‘94, ‘95 at the Greek Theatre, open theatre in Berkeley; Dave Matthews Band. They only had one big album at the time. They basically played their album and just jammed, jammed for the entire time, just holding a few songs. That might not have been my first concert, it was my first concert with who is now my wife. That was probably my favorite concert.

John: That’s super cool. I’m a huge concert guy as well. They’re so great. So great. Primus, that was like, My Name is Mud, right?

Justin: Yeah. Jerry Was a Race Car Driver, Tommy the Cat. What he was able to do — don’t get me wrong. He’s not for everyone. If any of you are not bass players, promise, you might judge me for that. What he was able to do with bass, let alone sing over it. He didn’t just strum, the tapping, really legendary in the world of bass.

John: Absolutely. How about a favorite Disney character?

Justin: Wow. Especially now there’s so many to choose from.

John: Or any animated character really, I’ll take. It doesn’t matter.

Justin: It’s funny. Off the top of my head, you bring up Disney, I would say there’s the classic Mickey Mouse, of course. I’m sure everyone, probably, just that’s the first thing I think of Disney. I’m actually probably more of a Donald Duck guy, if I really think about how I grew up classic now. What I will say though is, if you would probably ask anyone else what they thought about me and who my favorite character would be, you ask family or friends, you know me from Twitter and Linkedin; I bet you most people would guess Goofy. There’s a reason.

John: Also good.

Justin: There’s a reason I’m not a stand-up comedian or entertainer. My jokes, full disclosure, not the best jokes. They’re mostly somewhat related to tax, but Goofy.

John: It doesn’t matter. It’s all relative, man, and you’re having fun. That’s all good. It’s all good. How about, since you have the accounting background here, balance sheet or income statement.

Justin: That’s easy for me. Once again, I know accountants may have a different answer, especially depending, tax or audit. For me, balance sheet. That is the first place I start with every single client, from a wealth management perspective. The reality is every company should have a balance sheet. That’s a given. As far as I’m concerned, every individual, every family should have a personal balance sheet. What are your assets? What are your liabilities? What’s your net worth? From there, we can build out cash flow and income and portfolio. It all starts, for me, balance sheet, first place to start from a wealth and financial planning perspective.

John: That’s awesome, man. Very interesting. How about, we’ve got four more, more of an early bird or a night owl.

Justin: My wife would tell you. I’m an early bird. I wake up in the morning. Sometimes my alarm doesn’t even need to go off. 5:30, I just pop up. I’m ready. I get going. You brush teeth. Do a quick little workout. I’m off to work. I’m going in the morning. 8:45, 9:00, I just start falling asleep. By the way, I wasn’t always like this. This is me close to 50. In college, my excuse, I’ll give you my excuse. This is the way I explain it. Went to law school in New York; got my LLM, JD, both from NYU; great experience in New York. By the way, this is back in the late ‘90s. I haven’t been really back other than some short visits. I don’t think I ever adjusted to the three-hour time change.

John: You’re still East Coast.

Justin: I’m still East Coast time. Waking up at 5:00, I feel like I’m waking up pretty late. By 9:00, that’s midnight in New York. That’s the reason maybe I’m an early bird. I just think, after that New York experience, I never adjusted back to West Coast time.

John: That’s funny. On New Year’s Eve, you’re like, we’re just going to do the New York New Year’s Eve and then call it midnight, and we’re going to bed.

Justin: I wish. If I could. I love watching the ball drop at 8:59pm, West Coast time. That is actually the one time of the year that, my wife asks very little of me, she’s the best, but very little, and just the one thing she asks for is stay up with her on New Year’s Eve. At least stay up. I can go to bed at 12:01. She’s totally fine with that. I prepare. I take a nap.

John: I was going to say, yeah, there’s that.

Justin: I get an afternoon cup of coffee. I’m ready to go. I’m pumped up every New Year’s Eve. That’s all she wants is company, all the way to the real West Coast midnight.

John: That’s awesome, man. That’s so great. How about a favorite number?

Justin: Favorite number. This might be the last time I’m invited back. I’m going to bring up, are we talking irrational number, rational?

John: You know what? I’ll take any number.

Justin: I’ll answer both.

John: Let’s go irrational. I love it.

Justin: I’ll give you both. My favorite irrational number, we’re going to have to go with PI, clearly back to my eating and bad diet theme. I love pie. No. Certainly, I just think it’s really cool number. It just keeps on going 3.1415926, on and on and on. Irrational, we’re going to stick with PI. Rational number, very, very close. I’m a big fan of three, my lucky number. If you do any research on it or really think about it, you’ve heard the saying, good things come in threes, or the rule of three. Thatt goes back to Latin and all that stuff. The reality though is three really is, to me, the perfect number. I do a lot of presenting and tax. How do we break things down for clients, for accountants, for attorneys? If you have a PowerPoint and you want to make a point across, you really should limit it to three bullet points. People can remember three. You can count to three. The reality is, after an hour, if you can have three takeaways, it’s very, very successful. Just think of where three comes up. We’ve got the Constitution, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. Those are three things. We’ve got Goldilocks and how many bears? There weren’t four or six. There were three bears. What about how many little pigs were there? There were three little pigs. How many wishes do you get with the genie? It’s three, three wishes.

John: Unless you wish for more wishes, then you get.

Justin: Oh, but there are always those rules. Even, look, by the way, I think it’s actual. I’ll give you my conspiracy and universal theories. Where is the Earth in relation to the sun? We are the third planet from the sun. I think there’s some cosmic universal reason why three is my favorite number.

John: Yeah. You have convinced men. That’s solid, man. Three legged stools, all that stuff. That’s impressive. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Justin: Let’s see. I have two answers to everything. You can tell this is training as a lawyer. I really like real books. I’m old school. I love the feel. That’s the way I was brought up. It’s tradition. It feels better. There’s just that sense, but the reality is, in this day and age, I do read a lot, and it’s electronic books. I have a Kindle, or iPad so you can read it with the Kindle app.

John: Sure.

Justin: It’s so easy to do electronic. I can just load up a few books. I don’t have to worry. Oh gosh, I travel a lot. I think of the olden days when I used to have a big heavy hardback book or something like that that I took out. I had to bring out a bigger suitcase just to fit in my book. Now I can have my book I’m reading. I have the next book. If I go on vacation, I can have two or three. Definitely, the electronic is my go-to. I miss real books. Audio, I haven’t really gotten into audio. I see the appeal, but for me, I prefer reading.

John: Absolutely. Same, same for me. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Justin: Favorite thing I have, well, favorite thing I have is probably a family, very close family.

John: Oh, sure, just in case they’re listening.

Justin: My wife, if she hears this, and kids, put them in that as well, parents, sisters, all that. No. Favorite thing I own, it’s funny, we’re talking right now in the morning. I’m looking at my coffee mug, and my coffee is probably pretty high on my list. No, but actual thing I own, I’m probably going to have to go with my iPhone. The reality is when I think of, what do I use the most? What do I keep with me for work purposes, for personal purposes, if I were stranded? Certainly a laptop is important. I can log in, but I can do think so quickly, most of my job, personal, all that stuff that I can keep in contact. I would be lost, I think, without it. I’ve had it before where I accidentally dropped my phone, and it broke. Oh, panic sets in. I have my own psychological issues. I can maybe make it a couple of days without a laptop. I can borrow. I can login from someone else’s. My phone, I live off that phone.

John: No, that’s a solid answer. Solid answer. Let’s talk writing children’s novels. The one that just came out, The Mysterious Mystery Man, which of course was the follow up to The Super Secret Special Powers Club, which is a mouthful. Kids are going to be really good at tongue-twisters, that are fans of Justin Miller’s writing. What’s your favorite book? Well, you’ve you got to be able to say it before you can actually get it. How did this come about, just the writing side of you, the children’s novels?

Justin: Oh, gosh. How did it really start for me? I have two children. My daughter, at this point, she’s a freshman in college. She’s going to UCLA. My son’s, now, he’s in high school, but this was all the way back when my daughter was in first grade. She was just getting into reading. My wife and I, we both love reading. We wanted to share that and encourage her. Up until that time, I volunteered. Even before she was in first grade, one of the things I do for volunteer is go to schools, often inner city schools, Read Across America and other programs, where I would go into the schools, and I would read books to the students. It was something I enjoyed. I think the students enjoyed it. The teachers liked it. Someone in a business suit coming, and it’s just somebody new. It gets the kids energized.

One of the things I realized though, especially around first grade, second grade, is that I was reading some of these books to the children and then I was reading the books that my daughter was just starting to read. These are your first real chapter books. You’re first, second grade. You’re getting to your real long books with chapters, no more picture books. The problem was I didn’t like a lot of those books. I was thinking, to be honest, no wonder she wasn’t excited about reading. Don’t get me wrong. There are a lot of great books. The problem was, and here’s where I saw the problem when she was in first grade, and that is, she had seen all the movies for Harry Potter. She loved Harry Potter. You’ve got Percy Jackson and Richard Riordan and all that, and JK Rowling. The problem was, as an early reader for your first chapter books, she wasn’t at the level to read a Harry Potter or a Percy Jackson, but she could appreciate the movies. In first, second grade, you can certainly watch a movie and love it, but it’s too hard to read.

One of the things I wanted to do, and that’s what inspired me was, you know what? I’m going to write a book. I’m going to try to write a good story, but I’m going to write it at a level that someone in first or second grade with the dialogue, with the — and maybe that’s just my verbal language skills and grammatical ability is pretty much the first or second grade novel writing, but without using too big of words. We can keep the words somewhat simple, so I started writing. Ever since my kids were little, I used to just make up stories at night, and they used to love it. I said, I’m going to just start writing these down. In first grade, that’s really where I got started. It was to get her interested and excited in reading.

John: Good for you, man.

Justin: I give my wife all the credit. She’s the one. She’s like, you’ve got to make this into a book. Put these stories down. Of course, I have a full-time, more than a full-time job, very, very busy, but getting back into your book and podcast, What’s Your “And?, we all need hobbies in life. We’ve got to do something other than just work all the time. That’s when I started writing it down and actually putting it on paper. Eventually, it became my first book, Super Secret Powers Club.

John: I love it, man. I wanted to write something that I liked, for my kids. Good for you. Good for your wife to encourage you to publish it. Why not? Get it out in the world. Let other people read it to their kids or other kids being able to read it. That’s going to be super rewarding when you just throw it out there. Then people you don’t even know are reading the book now and writing their Amazon review or things like that. We were joking earlier. No one gives you a review on your tax returns or your wealth management work. Here’s five stars.

Justin: At this point, I’ve written dozens, dozens of tax articles. I’m very proud of them. A lot of lawyers and accountants, maybe even some clients have read these articles, and they’ve been in Trust and Estates Quarterly, Tax Notes, California Tax Lawyer, in California Trust and Estates. You name it. They’ve been published all over, but, like you said, nobody’s ever come up to me and said, Justin, can I get your autograph? Can you sign? This thing on non-grantor trust was just brilliant. Oh, my God, we’re reading it together as a family. Oh, I should, full disclosure.

John: Reading it together as a family.

Justin: I will give full disclosure, my books have nothing to do with tax. The word tax is not even mentioned. It is completely different than anything I do during my day, totally just a side project. Nothing to do… The reality is I do have a lot of friends. I have clients, clients that their kids or their grandkids, and they’re so excited. It’s not, we’ve done this brilliant wealth plan, and our investment returns are amazing; but the conversation might turn into how much their grandchild is enjoying. They might even be reading the book to the grandchild. In a meeting, they’ll take pictures with me to show their — nobody has ever asked for a picture of me in a tax conference.

John: It’s so great though. It humanizes you. There’s another dimension to you. There’s a lot of people that can give wealth management advice and tax planning and things like that, but to do that and write these books, is cool. You’re the only one or there are maybe three. I don’t know. Someone else listening, no, I do too. Okay, good. Come on. It’s just a cool thing. It’s gotta be, I don’t know, a more interesting conversation or a more energizing conversation.

Justin: It’s funny you bring that up. I know you covered in your book as well. When you have an “and”, when you do something outside of work, and I’m no different than most people; at first, it wasn’t that I was embarrassed to share it. This was my little pet project. It was something I did on the side. I was brought up old school. We all learn from our mentors and boss, and they learned from their mentors and their — when I started as an associate straight out of school, you want to give the impression that your entire life is just working. The way you’re trained was clients and prospects. They don’t want to know that you do anything else other than their work, not even other people’s work. All you could do is work.

The reality is I do work a ton. Morning through night, I work weekends. I’m passionate about it. I love what I do. I love tax. Fortunately, I get paid for it as well. I do work a lot, but the reality is, exactly what you just said, is, it’s not enough to just be good. In fact, I would even say at this point, you need to be excellent. There are a lot of good wealth managers, good accountants, good attorneys. You need to be excellent at what you do. I would start with that as a premise. There are a lot of excellent advisors out there. What makes you different? It’s that humanizing element. It shouldn’t be something that you’re embarrassed about. Get clients, prospects, they should know you as a person. They have their own hobbies and passions, even if it’s just hanging out with your kids, watching softball games, whether it’s knitting, whether it’s baking. For me, it’s writing children’s novels.

Now nobody is going to question that I’m dedicated to my job. You can look at my credentials and resumes and how much I work. Clearly, this is my job. Just a full disclosure, I get about 72 cents a copy from my books. Maybe I can buy half a cup of coffee. I’m not retiring and leaving my profession to become a children’s novelist. I love to do it. It’s a pastime. It’s something I do on the side. It’s a conversation topic. Similar to some of the stories I’m sure you have, where, that’s where clients and prospects, they’ll remember me, not just as, oh, this brilliant tax guy I met in this wonderful wealth management firm, but not only do they know that I have a side project, that I have a passion outside of work, that I’m human.

I’ll give you the secret to success really is we approach everything as a team. We’re very team-based organization. It’s the model I like that, it’s not just me as the tax person. We have a dedicated portfolio manager, dedicated wealth advisors. Not only do we work really hard, we’re passionate, we really take pride in client service like other people, but I also know the “ands” of the other people on my team. It shows that we know each other. We like each other. I can say, So-and-So, they just spent this last, they love sailing, and someone over here, they do X, Y or Z. Even if the client or prospect has totally different passions, it gives us something to talk about. It establishes a connection. I think that is so valuable. Number one, I’d say you still have to be excellent at what you do. That’s the premise. First priority, be excellent at what you do, but this is a differentiator. Be human.

John: I love that so much, man. Because we’re all good at our jobs. Especially computers have leveled out the playing field a lot. You work hard. You get these degrees. You pass the bar. You pass the CPA exam. You walk in. You think you’re all that, and everyone’s, well, welcome. We all have that too. Oh, crap. I worked this hard to get to where everyone’s already at? What? Then all of a sudden, these little things outside that are just fun, that just light you up, that bring you joy, and you talking about them also brings joy. Talking about work is sometimes joy, but sometimes it’s work. Talking about music or children’s novels, always awesome. It’s never not great.

Justin: It’s such a hard transition, especially young people that are just getting started and even some of the older old school way of looking at it. Like I said, my premise is you’ve got to be excellent at what you do. The other thing is you’ve got to make it clear that this is a hobby. This is something for fun. Oftentimes, not only are you not making money off it, oftentimes these things cost you money.

John: Totally.

Justin: Whether hiking or sailing. You’ve got to make the client comfortable you’re not going to leave them to try to give up your job and pursue this. It does make you human. The reality is, actually even with not just clients, prospective clients, other advisors, this could even be with some of the more senior people you work with. Frankly, it should be on the senior people getting to know each other on a personal level. One of the partners I work with, he plays keyboard in a band. That’s so cool. I’m bass and guitar. He has a life out side of the office. I think young people coming up need to know it. These people that seems so scary, these partners and managing directors, they have lives too. Yes, it seems they’re working all the time, and a lot of them are. Really the ones that don’t have an “and”, the ones that don’t have a passion, that’s where you see a problem. How are they ever going to retire? How do they ever transition? It’s important. It makes you a better person, a full complete person. I think that it makes you better with colleagues and with clients.

John: I agree totally, man. Thank you so much for recognizing that and seeing it in the real world. Because it’s not just my little make-believe bubble, Utopia world where it’s, but it’s true. The fact that these people have these outside-of-work hobbies and passions, and then letting people see that side of you, especially co-workers and colleagues. It’s hard to remember when you were 22 and coming out of school, scared about everything and just modeling whatever behavior’s in front of you. I guess that’s what I’ve got to do to be successful. Oftentimes it happens, I find, across horizontally, like a partner group. Yeah, we all know each other. Yeah, but does the staff or the senior associate know you? It’s gotta go vertical as well. Because I think it’s important that people see that we’re working so we can live. We all are. If anyone says that they’re not, they’re lying. They’re lying to themselves. They’re lying to everyone around them. You’re working so you can live. That’s why you’re doing this.

Justin: I agree in general with you, but if you talk to my wife, she’d probably say, Justin, he’s doing what he’s doing for free. I’m a weird guy, clearly. Don’t get me wrong. It’s not like I was five years old, and I want to be a tax attorney one day. Now that I’m doing it, I certainly love what I do, but the reality is there are things I love, other than work. There are things I enjoy. The other thing, and it’s a really hard thing even for me to overcome that world, especially being mentored and knowing the people that came before me, of being able to be public and sharing those kinds of things and opening up to people, which has been great. Something that you cover in your book, What’s Your “And”?, it’s also something my wife has coached me on, over the years.

My default for my office, especially now that we’re on Zoom where people can see your background. Before it was just, you’re in your office and you do conference calls, and maybe some co-workers see what’s in your office. You’d have your deal toys and your awards and your certificates and credentials. Don’t get me wrong. At this point, I’ve got diplomas and all kinds of honors. I could fill up a wall with it. Really from my warped sense of how I was brought up in the professional world, that’s how I was planning. Oh, I’m going to put up 12 different frames behind me. What a cool Zoom background. Then I have, you covered in your book, and my wife came to me and she said, “Justin, this isn’t a dentist’s office. They’ve already seen your bio. They’ve already realized. You’ve proven yourself. There’s no doubt of what you do, with your background and experience. They don’t need to see that behind you. You’ve got all these other things you’re interested in. How are you going to connect — and whether it’s their passion or a different passion, why not share some of you?

One of the things we came up with, I still have my awards up on a shelf and that kind of stuff, but it’s a shelf. Instead, I put up one of the things — I love, music, so I took some of my favorite records. We got a little frame for them. Behind me, instead of having these certificates and awards and all that, we’ve got some awesome cool frames. I don’t even know if a lot of people know what records are nowadays. My kids certainly do. That’s how I was brought up, with music. That’s how I first started listening. I still have some of those original records. Not that I listen to them on the record player anymore, although I do like records, but now I got them framed. It’s a conversation piece at least. Even if you don’t like the same music as me, now we have something to talk about and connect on, beyond tax.

John: Also too, when you’re not on Zoom, you see them, and you’re like, oh yeah, that brings me joy. Those are cool things. It’s a can opener for someone to be like, hey what are these? What’s this all about? No one’s asking about your degrees. What certificate is this, or what award is this? No one has ever asked that ever. You get questions on the other stuff. That’s so cool to hear, man. It’s great that you did that. You didn’t get fired. No one looks down on you. No clients are leaving. All the lies that we tell ourselves. If I show some of these, what’s going to happen? Well, the sky is going to fall. No, the opposite happens. Awesomeness. I love that. That’s so cool. I feel we should wrap this up, but I feel it’s only fair that I turn the tables, since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning of the episode, that we make this the Justin Miller podcast. It’s all yours. Whatever questions you’ve got, man, I’m all ready for it.

Justin: Now we get to open it up to the world of John Garrett. Here are random questions to throw at you. Clearly, if you’ve seen any theme throughout this, I’ve got a food problem, especially junk foods. I’m going to turn it over now to, John, what’s your favorite dessert?

John: Oh, man. That’s impossible. All of them, the sugary ones. I’ve seen you at the meetings. We’re both in Sugars Anonymous or whatever it’s going to be called. Favorite dessert, man, ice cream is solid, but it’s got to be with a brownie or chocolate cake as well. It’s like chocolate cake, probably cake with ice cream is always good. Cake, here’s the thing. When I grew up, we only had cakes at birthdays. All of a sudden, you become an adult, and you’re shopping in the grocery store. I look over at a box of cake mix is three bucks. You could make a cake every week for five bucks, all in, icing, eggs, whatever. Every house, if I run for any office, political, it’s every house gets free cake every week. Then we all have all the diseases that come with it. But cake, it’s so good in ice cream. That would be my favorite dessert. I combine them, but I feel it comes on a plate.

Justin: You don’t even have to bake it out of the box. You can go to the grocery store, and they have slices. You just pick it up fully baked.

John: You’re right. Actually, you don’t even have to make it. That’s a good point.

Justin: I’ve never met a carb I didn’t like. Actually, this is what’s nice about, let me tell you, getting back to in-person conferences, because one of my biggest complaints about these Zoom conferences is the snacks. Where are snacks? Where’s my carb? I might have to buy a new belt once we start get back to in-person conferences.

John: Totally. Totally. Get that elastic waistband suit pants like the jeans, stretchy jeans.

Justin: If we have time, how about one more question?

John: Absolutely.

Justin: Here we go.

John: It’s your show man. I’m just the guest.

Justin: I’ve taken over. Final question for the John Garrett. We know you’re an entertainer, comedian. You’ve done so much stuff. I’m going to guess it’s a comedy in here, but I could be wrong. What is your favorite TV show or movie?

John: Oh, wow. Yeah. Probably, Rudy is going to be up there, just because the Notre Dame connection.

Justin: You should give that full, guess where John went to school. Notre Dame.

John: Even if I just hear the music, I’m going to get emotional. Probably Dumb and Dumber is always good. You don’t even have to watch the whole thing. You can jump in the middle and then catch a scene or two and then leave, and it’s still hilarious. It’s not like you have to catch the good part. Dumb and Dumber, or Ace Ventura, also so good.

Justin: You’re clearly a Jim Carrey fan. I’m seeing a pattern here.

John: I love Jim Carrey. I love Jim Carrey till the end of the world. Then probably Goodwill Hunting is also a solid one, if I had to go semi-drama, I guess. Those would be, if I had to pick movies, it would be, all right, those are all pretty solid.

Justin: I’m with you. Great choices.

John: Okay. Good.

Justin: You passed, John. You are great on your own show. Let me tell you. You’ve been a wonderful guest, John. Thank you.

John: Now back to John. Here we go. Justin, thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And?” It’s been so much fun having you be here. Thank you.

Justin: All right. My pleasure. I can’t wait to hear this and all your other podcasts. Once again, for those of you that haven’t read the book, I really mean this. It is a fantastic book. We should all try to incorporate this into our lives, into our professional and personal lives. What’s Your “And”? by John Garrett. Such a pleasure to be with you today. I hope you enjoyed the podcast.

John: People listening, if you want to see some pictures of Justin outside of work, his book covers, maybe connect with him on social media or the links to the book, especially the new one, The Mysterious Mystery Man, all the links are at whatsyourand.com. You can go there and get everything. While you’re on the page, please click the big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out What’s Your “And”?, as Justin said, on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or all the other sites where also Justin’s books are.

Thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to episode 497 of What’s You “And?” This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. It goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Anna N’Jie-Konte. She’s the founder of Dare to Dream Planning in Washington, DC and the host of the Financial Powerhouse Podcast, helping female entrepreneurs manage their money, and now she’s with me here today. Anna, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Anna: Thanks so much for having me, John. I’m really excited to be here.

John: This is going to be a blast. I have my rapid-fire questions, get to know Anna out of the gate here.

Anna: Let’s go.

John: You’re ready. You’re like, bring it. Here we go. Maybe an easy one. How about a favorite color?

Anna: Red.

John: Red. How about a least favorite color?

Anna: Magenta.

John: Interesting, because that’s kind of in the reddish family.

Anna: Yeah. I don’t like pink very much.

John: Right. There you go. It’s got to be fire red, like, bring it. How about more talk or text?

Anna: Talk.

John: Me, too. It just gets it done faster. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Anna: That’s a good question. Favorite actor or actress. I love Idris Elba. He’s wonderful.

John: Yeah. Absolutely. That’s all that needs to be said right there. He’s just wonderful.

Anna: Yeah.

John: There you go. This is a fun one. How about a favorite cereal, even when you were a kid?

Anna: Lucky Charms was always a favorite as a kid.

John: Yes. There you go. That’s a solid answer right there. How about a TV show that you would binge-watch?

Anna: Gosh. I really love random international TV soap dramas. That’s something I love. I really love Korean dramas, and I really love Turkish dramas. Very random. I don’t speak Korean or Turkish, but I watch them. Any of those, I would watch any of those.

John: It’s reading the show basically?

Anna: Yes. My husband’s like, listen, your eyeballs have been glued to the iPad for three hours. Can you make eye contact with me, please? Whenever I get into one of those, he’s like, can you blink?

John: That’s awesome. How did you get into those? You just stumbled into it?

Anna: I just stumbled into it. I’ve always loved history. I just love cultural stuff, and I love period pieces. Those usually marry all of those together. It’s so fun to get a window into somebody else’s culture.

John: A totally different culture, too.

Anna: Yeah.

John: That’s awesome. I love it. Puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw.

Anna: None. I don’t like puzzles.

John: I don’t have time for that. I don’t have time for that.

Anna: Game night with my children is always like, oh, God, are we going to cry over who won Candyland? I don’t like board games and that stuff.

John: Mostly your husband crying.

Anna: It’s my husband, yeah. Not the three-year-olds.

John: No, not at all. That’s hilarious. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Anna: I don’t particularly love either, but my mom loves Star Trek, so I feel like I have to say Star Trek.

John: All right. Just in case she listens. I’m still her favorite. How about computers, PC or a Mac?

Anna: PC.

John: PC. Yeah, me, too. How about on your mouse, right click or left click?

Anna: Left.

John: Not making decisions. That’s like picking the stuff. There it is. Boom.

Anna: Always.

John: Totally. How about oceans or mountains?

Anna: Oceans all the way.

John: Oceans. There you go. This is a good one. I’m an ice cream junkie. Ice cream in a cone or a cup.

Anna: Cone. If I had to have one ice cream forever, it would be those paper-thin cones like you get when you’re a kid, and vanilla soft serve with rainbow sprinkles. That’s just childhood in a bite.

John: There it is. That really is right there, yeah, with the sprinkles, of course.

Anna: Yeah, you have to have the sprinkles.

John: Because it’s a little bit of crunch, a little bit of texture to it. I love it.

Anna: And it’s pretty.

John: I’m with you. There you go. Because there’s rainbow sprinkles then.

Anna: Yes, rainbow.

John: Not chocolate. Okay, got it. All right. Since you have the financial background, this will be a fun one. Balance sheet or income statement.

Anna: Balance sheet, baby.

John: Okay. All right. There it is. Because I, at least, then know it’s done because it balances.

Anna: Yeah.

John: Perfect. It’s clearly right.

Anna: Yeah. I think also you just want to know what’s going on. You just want to know what’s going on, on an ongoing basis. I think that’s how you can really make progress.

John: A little more under the hood. Got it. Are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Anna: Definitely an early bird. If you ever catch me awake past 10pm, I’m not a happy person. Just, I’m not happy.

John: There’s an emergency.

Anna: Yeah, or somebody dragged me out of the house.

John: That’s awesome. How about a favorite number?

Anna: Seven.

John: Seven. Mine, too. Is there a reason?

Anna: No, just came to mind.

John: It’s definitely the most popular one, for sure. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Anna: Oh, my gosh. Favorite thing I own is probably a ring that was my grandmother’s that I wear all the time, just so special.

John: Nice. That’s awesome. Absolutely. That’s a great answer. Very cool. Let’s talk kickboxing which is probably something you don’t wear the ring during.

Anna: No.

John: Right? How did you get started with kickboxing?

Anna: I have a neighbor who was doing kickboxing. She always tried to get me to go. I was like, no. Megan, I’ve got these long nails. I’m not doing kickboxing. It’s just not going to work.

John: Right?

Anna: For months, I was like, I’m just not going to do it. Then, this was right after the world started to open a little bit up after COVID, and a different friend said, “Hey, I do kickboxing, and it’s so much fun. You should really just come try it.” I was like, all right, I’ll try it out. I’ve been hooked ever since. I love it so much. It’s just incredible.

John: That’s awesome.

Anna: It’s such a good workout. I do it three, maybe four times a week.

John: Wow. Holy cow. You’re on my side then.

Anna: Yeah.

John: I’m not coming at you. No. We’re all good. How are the nails? How are the nails through it all?

Anna: The nails are decidedly shorter. Those get kicked to the curb.

John: Well, I guess you go through COVID, you realize what’s important.

Anna: Exactly.

John: Kicking some butt ranks a little bit higher now than the nails.

Anna: Absolutely.

John: All right. That’s awesome. Do you have a favorite memory? Are you going against someone? Or is it mostly just like…

Anna: Yeah.

John: Oh, really?

Anna: I’ll do one of two things. I have a friend of mine that we’d do two-on-one classes with a trainer, three days a week. It’s just like he’s got the pads. We’re just like going at it, she and I, for an hour. Or sometimes we’ll spar too, which is really fun. I love doing that too. That always challenges you a little bit more because it’s not like a routine jab, cross, right hook. You have to improvise and read the other person’s body language and go with the flow.

John: Wow. Then still be friends and walk out together.

Anna: Yeah. Oh, my God, we have so much fun. We really do have so much fun. Our trainer has become a friend too, which is really cool.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so great. It’s got to just give you some energy and make you feel better about yourself, more confidence, I’d imagine.

Anna: Totally.

John: All the things I don’t have because I don’t kickbox.

Anna: Well, I will recommend it. It definitely, as a woman, I think, it gives me a lot of confidence. We didn’t talk about this, but I grew up in New York City. I’m already a tough chick. Period. Right?

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Anna: No one’s messing me. I grew up in the city and riding the subway at 12. You add the kickboxing on top of that, whatever, what you got?

John: I don’t even blink anymore.

Anna: Exactly.

John: I lived in New York for almost ten years, in Brooklyn. It’s like, yeah, I don’t blink. It’s just like, whatever.

Anna: Yeah. Exactly. I’m just not fazed.

John: Just doing stand-up comedy in New York City, I’m like, I don’t even care. Whatever you got, bring it.

Anna: You probably have the thickest emotional skin from that, I would imagine.

John: Well, it’s thick and then underneath, it’s super, super thin. It’s this weird dichotomy of, I could take it and then, but if you get through that, I’m going to start sucking my thumb in the corner. I’ll cry when we start Candyland. I don’t even care. Just to make it normal. Hopefully, he doesn’t listen to this. Either way, it’s all good.

Anna: He has a good sense of humor.

John: All right. Good. Good. Do you feel like any of the kickboxing translates to work at all?

Anna: Absolutely. I will say, being a financial adviser can be a pretty stressful job in that we manage people’s money, which is inherently stressful. It is also a very emotional thing for a lot of people. We’re oftentimes dealing with a lot of emotions about their finances, about the market, managing our own feelings about the market, especially lately. It can be really stressful. I personally feel it allows me to blow off steam really well. I usually do kickboxing in the morning. If I wake up and I’m like, I can’t do anything today; usually a good kickboxing session will snap me right into gear. I’m like, let’s go. I got it.

I also think that it reinforces just sticking through things when it’s hard. Even when you feel like you’re messing it up and even when you feel like you’re not doing a great job, you just continue to see the improvement, over time. When I look at my first videos of me kickboxing, I’m like, oh, that was pathetic. Now, I’m like, hey, I got this. I’m sure, in two years, I’ll look at and be like, that was really pathetic. It’s a continuous process of improvement. It allows me to have a space where I’m learning something new. I’m not expected to be perfect or great at it. I can just show up and try and do something fun and keep going through the sucking of, I’m exhausted and I just want to lay down.

John: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. It’s like you’re in your own lane.

Anna: Yeah.

John: We always compare ourselves to the masterpiece, whatever. We didn’t see their first training. We didn’t see their brand new or the Jackie Chan or the whatever. Even your instructor, you didn’t see their first lesson.

Anna: No.

John: Maybe it was just as pathetic. It’s cool that — it’s also cool that you’re willing to do something that’s outside of your comfort zone, that you’re willing to be vulnerable and not good at. It seems like it takes some of the pressure off because, well, I’m not supposed to be good at this. This is great.

Anna: Absolutely. I’ll give my coach a lot of credit. Shout out to Shags. Shags is awesome. Shags, he’s like, listen, you’re not going to be the worst one here. Even if you suck, you’re learning, and you’ll get better. You’re still not the worst person here, which he continually tells me. Thanks for the reassurance.

John: The first time that felt good, but the seventh time, I’m starting to wonder. I’m starting to wonder. Can you tell me who the one that’s worse than me? Because that would just help.

Anna: Yeah. That would help me feel better. I’ll watch him or her and say, oh, that’s better.

John: They only come on Tuesdays. That’s not your day.

Anna: No, it’s not. I’m the worst on Wednesdays. The other day, I will say — he’s like a martial arts dude. He’s not like an MMA dude. He’s not cuddly. He’s not cuddly type. He’s like, I wouldn’t want to get in a fight with you. I was like, oh, well, that’s a compliment. I appreciate that.

John: That’s a huge compliment. There you go. That’s very cool though because a lot of people are scared to not be the alpha all the time or not be really, really amazing at everything all the time. I think that’s a good lesson of, it’s cool to step back into something that you’re not supposed to be good at. It feels good actually. There’s no pressure.

Anna: No. It’s just for fun. That’s the thing. I put a lot of pressure on myself to be excellent in everything. This has been a place where I cannot be excellent because I’m not trying to be a professional kickboxer or MMA fighter. That’s not in the cards for me. I’m 35. I’m past the prime of that. There’s no reason to put that level of pressure on me like I do with so many other things. It’s just purely for fun. I think as adults, we take life really serious. We don’t have a lot of things that we just do for fun and are willing to suck at.

John: No. I love that so much because it’s so true. It’s so true. When we’re kids, we’re terrible at everything.

Anna: Yeah.

John: It’s totally cool because you’ll get better. It’s fine. Keep going. Then as adults, all of a sudden, we’re afraid to fail, and we stop trying anything where we might look silly or might look stupid or won’t be the best at. It’s just a hobby. It’s just something outside of work just to, like you said, release the anger, give you a different mindset and all that. I think that’s awesome. Is this something that you talk about that clients hear?

Anna: I don’t. You know what’s funny? Thinking about it, I don’t talk about it. I’m very vocal that I exercise often and that physical health is important to me, but I don’t really talk about that I get my butt kicked every Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday at kickboxing. I don’t talk about that very much.

John: Yeah. Right. Well, just always curious, or even earlier in your career before kickboxing because I know that you have other “ands” as well. Is there something else that maybe comes up or something like that?

Anna: I think this is one of the biggest challenge of being a professional is that we’re taught, and especially in, you come from public accounting, it’s similar to financial services where you have to be so buttoned up and so stiff and so perfect and not a hair out of place. I think I got into the habit of very much being that way. My entrepreneurial journey has allowed me to be more free and be more open and be myself more, which has been amazing and so welcome, but I think there’s a little bit of that habit still there of not sharing that much. Once again, I don’t share that about myself, and I never realized it.

John: Well, it’s what they tell you. You’re modeling behavior of people that are “successful” in front of you, but it’s been cool to hear, as you’ve gotten out of that, you’re starting to open up a little bit.

Anna: Yeah.

John: How has that been? Are clients leaving because this is embarrassingly unprofessional?

Anna: No. That’s the thing. My clients love it. I think that I have a much deeper connection with them because they see me as myself. They see me as a whole person. Especially with finances where it is a very vulnerable area, them seeing that I’m not some perfect human and that I’ve made mistakes and I have a life and I have things that frustrate me and all of those things as an all-encompassing being, that gives them comfort and allows them to trust me more. I think it’s really been super beneficial for my client relationship and my business growth too. Now I just say whatever I want which, the cat’s out of the bag.

John: I love it that you said it allows them to trust you more because that’s 100% true. Someone who’s totally perfect, that makes me nervous because there’s a yin to your yang.

Anna: Yeah.

John: As perfect as you look, there’s something just as evil and dark there that’s coming around that I don’t see right now. It just makes me nervous. It’s just like someone that’s too perfect. It’s like, what? Come on now. I love that where that’s where the true trust is, is actually, being vulnerable, being human, because that’s what your clients are, also human.

Anna: Absolutely.

John: That’s cool to hear that you opening up has flourished. It’s helped so much in the relationships and the stuff. It’s not the opposite. Because we tell ourselves in our mind, these lies of, well, if they find out that I kickbox, then they’re just going to all leave. It’s like, no, probably the opposite.

Anna: Yeah.

John: Is your financial person a kickboxer? Come over here. Mine’s freaking, literally kicking butt, literally kicking butt. It’s in the name.

Anna: That’s it. That’s it.

John: That’s awesome. How much do you feel like it is on an individual to create this space to share, or how much is it on the organization to open up and encourage that?

Anna: That’s a great question. I think it’s a little bit of a chicken and egg. I would say, for newer organizations, I think it’s up to the founder to be comfortable being themselves and be open and to set the culture of the organization to be an accepting, open, inviting place for the staff and clients and whoever is walking through the doors, whether physical or virtual. If it’s a large organization, that’s harder because, especially if you’re not in senior leadership, you don’t really control what happens. You just, I think, have to decide how much you’re comfortable sharing and in what way and with what people at work.

Being a black woman, being a Latina, especially if you’re in a predominantly white space, that can be really hard. If you’re LGBTQ, that can also be really hard. In a predominantly heterosexual environment, that’s really difficult. I don’t say that cavalierly, but I think, on some level, we just have to say, with ourselves, I can’t just completely check my personality and my likes and my dislikes and everything about me at the door. I just have to make a choice of what I’m going to bring here.

John: Absolutely. You deal a lot with entrepreneurs so, of course, it’s that tone at the top and as the founder, well, people are going to definitely follow you when you’re the founder of the organization. When you get into those larger organizations, what I’ve heard from clients that I’ve worked with, which is really cool, is how much the “and” really creates a nice middle ground for the DEIA conversations or these other conversations that might be harder as just co-workers. You’re more friends because, well, we both like to mountain bike or we both like to kickbox. Now we can have those conversations as friends or as colleagues, as opposed to just co-workers, kind of thing.

Anna: Totally.

John: That’s been a cool thing to just, you don’t have to lead with the thing that’s going to maybe be a little bit awkward to talk about for other people, but you can lead with something else, create that relationship and then have those conversations maybe.

Anna: Totally.

John: It’s just been what I’ve heard from clients is the cool thing of, we’re all human at the end of the day, and you hire the whole person, so what’s up? As long as it’s not super controversial or super taboo, then we’re good. It’s not illegal. Cool. All right. My “and” is selling cocaine. Maybe let’s lead with something else.

Anna: That’s not a hobby. That’s a side hustle, John.

John: My bad, my bad. That’s the entrepreneur in me coming out. It’s just one of those where, just lead with the human, and it’s really impossible for another human to reject that. If they do, then you’re really not at the right place.

Anna: Totally. That’s a total sign, too. If you’re just talking innocuously about your knitting or your mountain biking, people think you’re the weirdest person and they don’t let you sit with them at lunch, that’s probably not your place. You know what I mean?

John: Right. It’s like, wow, this is not a good place for anyone, not just you, but anyone. That’s so good. Do you have any words of encouragement to people listening that maybe have an “and”, but they feel like no one cares or it has nothing to do with my job?

Anna: Yeah. Our jobs are just one sliver of who we are. We’ve talked a lot about being your whole self. Being okay with you have places and people and spaces where you share certain things, and you don’t share everything. That sounds counterintuitive, but it’s like, alright, if you have a work friend that you like to bake bread with, I don’t know, I’m just making things up. You like to bake bread with your work friend. You guys get together and make all kinds of crazy cool meals. Maybe they’re not your friend that you go mountain biking with. Maybe they’re just work and bread friend. You have different circles within your life that you do different things with. That’s great, but don’t hide all of those things from yourself on some level. I think sometimes we will not share those things we like to do with others, or we feel shamed or judged, or people think we’re weird. We end up just being in a corner and doing whatever it is that we like, by ourselves. I think that’s a disservice to yourself in having joy in this life. This life is too short. We were talking before we started recording about the last two years and lockdown and COVID and how it’s been crazy. I think if that was any example, find the joy and the fun where you can because God knows, who knows what next week is going to be like.

John: You’re totally right. I love that so much. Hiding it from ourselves, that’s the biggest crime of this all is these “ands” that we have, they go dormant. If you don’t pay attention, they go extinct. I was speaking at a huge software user conference. The North American vice president comes up, and she goes, you know, this was amazing. She goes, I used to like to run. I don’t remember the last time I went running, half marathons.

Anna: So cool.

John: I go, you don’t even need a uniform. Let’s go now. Take off your heels. I’ll chase you. Let’s run down the hall. What have we got to do? She worked and life and things. The one thing that brings you joy, or however many things, that’s the thing that we put aside because it doesn’t pay the mortgage. People don’t seem to care. It’s like, no, no, you’ve got to make that a priority because it’s always with you no matter what job you have or what level you’re at, in that company.

Anna: Totally.

John: It’s so weird how that’s the first thing that we throw out. It’s like, no, no, no, that’s the only thing to keep. Throw everything else out.

Anna: Seriously. That’s the thing. There’s so much conversation about self-care now. It’s all about like bubble baths and manicures and facials, which there’s nothing wrong with any of those. I love all of those things, but it doesn’t have to be the only way. The thing that lights you up and brings you joy and makes you happy and makes you feel alive, that’s the thing you’ve got to keep doing because what the hell else is the point? I always ask myself, what are you going to regret not doing when you’re old and you’re stuck in a rocking chair in the living room and you’re ignored because you’re old? Hopefully, not ignored, but you know what I mean. You’re sitting in the rocking chair in the corner. Oh, grandma’s doing it again, whatever. What are the things that you’re going to say, I’m so glad I did that, or I’m really sorry I didn’t do that? I’m all about prioritizing that all through because life’s too short to live with those regrets.

John: You’ll be the grandma in the corner doing kickboxing.

Anna: I will. Hey, listen, you little whippersnapper, talk back to your mom again, let’s see what happens.

John: She’s like 50. It’s like, I don’t care how old you are. You’re still a whippersnapper.

Anna: Exactly.

John: That’s so good, so good, and such great insights here, for sure, Anna. I feel like it’s only fair though, before I wrap it up, that I turn the tables. You host, of course, your own podcast, the Financial Powerhouse Podcast, but we’ll make this whatever version of podcast Anna wants to make it. I’m your guest. I’m all yours, whatever questions you have. Since I rudely questioned you at the beginning, it’s only fair that I turned the tables.

Anna: I love that. I love being in control. Tell me a little bit about, what was your “and” and what made you keep up with your “and”?

John: Sure. Yeah. Well, when I worked in public accounting at PWC, I started doing stand-up comedy just for fun. The Funny Bone in Westport in St. Louis was my first time onstage. Then moved to Milwaukee for work. We do a little bit of comedy sports as well, which is improv, but also the stand-up. It’s just when I had time and when I could, but I definitely enjoyed it. It made me feel alive. It was a challenge. It was something that I wasn’t, stand-up especially, no one’s good at. I don’t care who your favorite is. Chappelle, Bill Burr, Brian Regan, whoever your favorite comedian is, Chris Rock, they’re not good at first. Similar to what I was talking about earlier. You don’t see Chappelle’s first time on stage. You see his specials which are amazing.

It was a challenge for me, and something that just pushed me out of that comfort zone, but I enjoyed it and was decent at it. You just have to make it a priority. This is what brings me joy. I’m going to do that, type of thing. Actually, it came to a point where the huge client I was working on, was merging. Everyone was going to move to a different city. I’m thinking, I’m just going to leave the firm, and I’m going to see what the stand-up is all about. I did an industry job, like a nine-to-five, so then I would have more time and not travel, so I could do more stand-up and see how it went. Eventually moved to New York City and did it full-time for a long time.

Anna: That’s so cool.

John: Even when I did comedy full-time, I had to have an “and”. College football. I’m a huge ice cream junkie, massive. It’s amazing I have teeth. That’s how much ice cream I eat. Concerts. I play the piano. I love music. All those things. You have to have these other dimensions to who you are because if you’re all one thing, anxiety and depression, through the roof. There are studies done to show that you’re just not as good as what you can be if you don’t have other dimensions to you. They don’t have to be world-class anything. It’s just other dimensions that it’s so important.

Anna: That’s so beautifully said. I will say, I found myself at a time where I was just working, and I had the kids. I was doing the, drop the kids off at daycare, get to work, grind every day. I found myself really depressed and sad. I think it had a lot to do with, because I was just those two things. It was mostly about what I was doing for other people, work-wise or my kids. Not to blame them, but I wasn’t prioritizing the things that would make me happy and bring me joy. That’s been, over the last two years, has been my biggest lesson. You got to get after it because — I actually had somebody who was very dear to me, pass away at the beginning of the pandemic, I suspect from COVID. That was before COVID tests and stuff like that. That just was such a wake-up call. You just don’t know how long people are going to be around, how long you’re going to be around, and what life is going to look like. Years will go by. Why not just do the thing, do all the things. Eat all the ice cream.

John: You said earlier, what are we here for? Yeah, totally. What are we doing? Who cares? You have to wait until you’re 80 to be able to… No, you don’t. Do it now. It doesn’t matter, within reason and don’t lose… What is it? Everything in moderation except moderation. I don’t know. It’s great. It’s just cool to just see what lights people up and what makes you feel alive. For some people, it’s work, but it’s also something else.

Anna: Yeah. There’s always something else.

John: I’m going to challenge you. If you think, well, work is my thing; well, I’m going to challenge you there’s something else. Because at some point in your life, you’re going to have to retire. You’re going to have to hang up the work outfit. You’re going to need something to go do. Why don’t you start doing it now? There’s more to the people around us than we know. There’s a human behind that job title. Tap into that.

Anna: What’s your advice to someone who has this thing that they love, maybe they’ve lost touch with it? They don’t really do it as much. One of those things for me is salsa dancing. I always love to dance. I’m a great dancer. I just stopped going out dancing, maybe children, I don’t know, but I just stopped. I went out once, recently, in the last two weeks. I was like, why didn’t I start doing this? This is so much fun. I feel alive. I feel great. I had to have a moment where someone asked me, hey, let’s go, and I went. What’s your advice for someone who’s sitting there feeling as though they just are feeling so sucked and they don’t know how to reconnect to anything that excites them? What’s your advice for them?

John: I’d imagine a good amount of people are there. It’s just almost making a list of things that you used to do that you used to like. When you were 12, what did you like to do? Or even when you were 25, what did you like to do? Pre-marriage, pre-family, pre-kids, pre-whatever, what did you like to do? When you were in college? Wow, salsa dancing, I haven’t done that in a while. I should just do that. Why not? It’s having to be intentional with it. Some of it may be, salsa dancing, I’m not doing that again or whatever. Okay, cool. No worries. It’s just being intentional and just going… It could also be binge-watching Netflix. That works. Your Korean period piece dramas, that’s an “and”. That’s totally an “and”.

Anna: So fun. So fun.

John: You’re clearly passionate about it. If I told you, you could never now watch any of those again, you would kickbox me.

Anna: Yeah, I would. I’d give you a jab, cross, left hook and then…

John: I’d be down and then you would go back to watching your show. It’s just creating that list and then just seeing, hey, here’s something I want to go do. I’m going to be terrible at it. I’m not going to be what I was when I was 22 or whatever, but just what brings me joy and then do it. If it didn’t bring you joy; okay, cool, don’t do it again. Also, take a lot of the pressure off. I found that the phrase, instead of giving you a title, salsa dancer; it’s like, no, no, I enjoy salsa dancing. Am I good at it? It doesn’t matter. I enjoy it. I didn’t ask your opinion. I enjoy painting. Are they any good? Who cares? I enjoy it. You’re doing it for the sole purpose of you enjoy it. That’s all. It’s okay to be not great. Just take the pressure off, and just whatever it is that you like to do, find that. Find that joy. There’s more to who you are. Don’t let anyone tell you that, especially anyone at work, tell you that that’s all you are. No, you’re not. You could quit today, and you’re still a person. It’s not like you disappear because you don’t have that job anymore. You’re still there. Don’t forget that.

Anna: That’s beautiful.

John: We got deep on your podcast.

Anna: We did.

John: Wow. We did. This has been so much fun, Anna. Thank you so much for being a part of this.

Anna: Thank you. This was great. Unconventional topics. People are usually asking me about the market, so I’m happy to talk about kickboxing and salsa dancing and ice cream.

John: Oh, yes. There we go. We can actually mix it all up together. I feel like it’d be one great evening.

There we go. Everyone, if you want to see some pictures of Anna in action or maybe connect with her on social media or the link to her podcast, Financial Powerhouse Podcast, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use, and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 495 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. Each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and” — is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiates you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice is reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and listening to it and writing such great reviews on Amazon, and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Aaron Berson. He’s the CEO and founder of Fringe Advisory Co out in New York City, and now he’s with me here today. Aaron, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And?”

Aaron: Thanks for having me. My pleasure.

John: This is going to be a blast. This is going to be awesome. I do have some rapid-fire questions to get to know Aaron out of the gate here. Hopefully you’re buckled in and ready for the ride.

Aaron: Let’s do it.

John: All right, I like that. I like that. Maybe an easy one. How about your computer, a PC or a Mac?

Aaron: PC, hands down.

John: Yeah, me too.

Aaron: Not even a question. Excel in Mac just doesn’t work. It’s horrible. Excel, if you still use Quickbooks Desktop, Quickbooks Desktop Mac, it is a horrible bane of my existence. I will never have a Mac.

John: That’s awesome. There you go. How about more Star Wars or Star Trek?

Aaron: That’s a tough one. That’s a tough one. Original Star Wars, but now I’d say more Star Trek with the newer Star Wars. Not a big fan of the newer ones.

John: Yeah, yeah. I’ve only seen the original three, I guess four, five and six, whatever, because I haven’t heard great things, and I don’t want to ruin it.

Aaron: Exactly. Exactly.

John: That’s why I’m just going to ride it with that.

Aaron: Although the new remakes of Star Trek are pretty good that they’ve come out with the movie versions, but it’s timeless. It’s timeless.

John: That’s awesome. How about a Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw puzzles?

Aaron: Can I say none?

John: None. None counts. Absolutely. None of them. Yeah, totally.

Aaron: If I had to choose, I’d say Sudoku, but that’s not really what I enjoy doing, not really my thing.

John: That’s totally an answer. How about a favorite color?

Aaron: Red, hands down.

John: Red. Interesting.

Aaron: Red and black, that combination, or purple and gold. Those are my two favorite combinations.

John: How about a least favorite color?

Aaron: White. It’s just very boring. It’s just not a lot going on.

John: You can tell you’ve done a lot of primer, your DIY projects because you’re like…

Aaron: Don’t even get me started on that.

John: There you go. How about a favorite season, summer, winter, spring or fall?

Aaron: Hands down, it would be fall.

John: Fall. Me, too.

Aaron: Fall followed by winter.

John: Okay.

Aaron: Summer is my least favorite. I do not like the heat.

John: No, it’s gross. Totally. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Aaron: Out of the normal one?

John: Any of them, man. I love ice cream. That’s why I asked.

Aaron: I would say Tiramisu. There was this small ice cream place —

John: Wow.

Aaron: Where I used to live in Pennsylvania, there is a small ice cream place, Jane’s Ice Cream, that they made Tiramisu with actual liquor in it.

John: Fancy.

Aaron: It was delicious.

John: That’s awesome. How about a favorite day of the week?

Aaron: Friday.

John: Friday. Solid. There you go. It’s TGIF. It’s not TGI Tuesday.

Aaron: Specifically, 5pm on Friday is really what it is.

John: Friday evenings are really what matters. How about, since you have the accounting background, balance sheet or income statement?

Aaron: Oh, boy. Let’s go with the balance sheet. Sure, why not?

John: I like that one because then you know you’re done, because it evens out.

Aaron: The P&L is part of the balance sheet, technically. It sits down in net income or retained earnings, so, the full picture. I like the full picture.

John: Fair enough. Are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Aaron: I’m actually both. I will wake up at 5:00 in the morning and I’ll go to sleep at 2am in the morning.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Aaron: Not every day.

John: You could do both.

Aaron: I often do, but.

John: There you go. How about a favorite number?

Aaron: 13.

John: Oh, really?

Aaron: Yes. No one else’s, plus also my birthday is on the 13th, so I go with that one.

John: Yeah, it has to be. There you go. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Aaron: Actually, real books when it comes to books.

John: Me, too.

Aaron: I like the tangible feel of it, even though I have five different e-readers and stuff like that. I have all this stuff, but I still like the real book.

John: The preference. Yeah. Absolutely. Since you’re in the New York City area, favorite toppings on a pizza. You can load it up.

Aaron: Just plain pepperoni.

John: Oh, okay. Just a slice.

Aaron: Simple.

John: There it is. Yeah. I like that. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Aaron: Don’t really have one.

John: Fair enough. All of them or none of them.

Aaron: There’s none that if you said, oh this person is in this movie, I would say, oh I have to go see it. There’s none like that.

John: Fair enough. Fair enough. How about, this is a fun one, planes, trains or automobiles?

Aaron: Planes, trains or automobiles. I would probably have to go with automobiles, just being able to drive around and the freedom to go wherever you want to go and just travel and like hop in a car and go someplace.

John: Just go wherever you want to go.

Aaron: Yes.

John: Not where the trains going or where the airplanes… There you go. How about a TV show that you would binge-watch?

Aaron: There are so many of them, especially now with the pandemic. Come on.

John: Right.

Aaron: Big Bang Theory is one that I would binge-watch, The Office. The Office, Big Bang Theory are two big ones. I probably re-watched those four times within the pandemic.

John: Great shows, great shows. Totally. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Aaron: Oh, Jeez. There are too many things. It’s all my tech toys. My two 3D printers, my drone, my computer, my video equipment, it’s all my tech toys. That’s it.

John: I love how you’re looking around your room, like, I have no idea.

Aaron: It’s over there. It’s over there.

John: Those are awesome things, man. Two 3D printers.

Aaron: Yeah, of course.

John: Did you print the other 3D printer from your first 3D printer?

Aaron: I didn’t, but you can. You can.

John: That’s amazing. That’s amazing. That’s awesome, man. Very cool. Let’s get into, I guess, YouTube diplomas, which I love that concept, but just basically just DIY-ing everything and figuring out how to DIY it. You’re DIY-ing the DIY which is next level, which is pretty awesome. How did you get started along that path?

Aaron: It really comes down to just endless curiosity, and just always wanting to understand how things work, not even necessarily the why. Now in my older age, I like to know the why, but it started out just wanting to figure it out. Actually, when I was a kid, watching the plumber, the mechanic or the electrician that came into the house. I was the annoying four-year-old standing next to them watching everything they’re doing. It was more just the curiosity of, how does this thing work that we use every day? Then that dovetailed into just a never-ending desire to keep learning really. YouTube made that very easy because you didn’t have to read a book. You could find an expert somewhere in the world who made a video and piece it together and figure it out.

John: I’ve done that so many times myself, man, so many times. It’s just, oh, okay, all right. Here’s how you do this. All right, perfect.

Aaron: You watch 25 hours of videos and then, hey, you’re cutting down a 65-foot tree with a chainsaw for the first time.

John: Exactly. What could go wrong? What could go wrong?

Aaron: Nothing. Nothing at all.

John: I have the diploma.

Aaron: Exactly.

John: That’s awesome, man. Do you have any favorite projects that you’ve done? Besides cutting down 65-foot tree, which that has to be on the list, but are there others?

Aaron: That was just fun to see it explode when it landed, but.

John: Right?

Aaron: There are so many of them, whether it’s remodeling the bathroom when I moved into this apartment or taking apart the whole engine of my car and rebuilding it because, hey, it wasn’t working. It was an old car. Either I’d get rid of it, pay someone else, or try to figure it out myself. That or just from my work life, which I tend to actually enjoy, exploring how software works and fitting it together and understanding the under-the-hood aspect of all that. Also, my 3D printers because I’ve got two of them. Those are always fun learnings.

John: Right? That’s awesome. We just remodeled the bathroom. You went down to the studs almost.

Aaron: I went down to nothing. It was an empty box.

John: The plywood.

Aaron: Well, it was even worse because it’s in a building in New York City, so it’s down to the concrete. It’s just nothing but a concrete box and then starting from scratch. The worst part was getting down to the concrete box, removing all the tile and everything else in it.

John: All the decades of who knows, paint and tile, and people just putting stuff on top of other stuff.

Aaron: Yep.

John: You’re like, really? Another layer? Oh, my gosh.

Aaron: Also, the fun part about it, no one puts videos up about remodeling anything in a 1950s apartment building in New York City. Translating someone in a house who’s like, oh yeah, you just take down the sheet rock, you put up new sheet rock, and you’re ready to go, clean and simple; to, okay, I have all this concrete I needed somehow figured out and sliding out.

John: You just drive to Home Depot and get your stuff and drive to your garage and park.

Aaron: There was a Saturday morning, Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning trip to Home Depot for like a month and a half, every day.

John: You could just get rid of a bathtub in New York. We’ve got to drop it off at a corner at 3am when no one’s looking.

Aaron: It’s funny you should say that. If my dad’s listening and he wondered where that tub came from, in front of his house, randomly, now he knows where it came from.

John: There you go. There you go. That’s awesome, man. That’s so good. I love that you also alluded to how this really dovetails with the work. This DIY, this mindset and this skill set and what you’re exercising outside of work, you’re bringing to work. Even if you want to or not, it’s coming with you.

Aaron: For me, I’m fortunate. It’s bringing my passion into work. Then my work becomes fun and not work. More than that, like I said, it’s the always learning aspect and saying, how can I do this better? Is there a way to do this faster, better, quicker, with less time or whatever it is, which dovetails into everything with the DIY stuff of, how do I do this? How can I figure this out? Can I do this, XYZ, and working through it all.

John: Yeah. It’s just so interesting, since I started the show several years ago, just how much our “and” weaves into our work because you can’t cut off part of you and go into the office. It’s like, no, no, all of Aaron is coming to work. Whether you like it or not, here he is, type of thing. I think that’s awesome. It’s definitely a skill set that you’re exercising that you’re better at work because of that. Is it something that you’ve talked about throughout your career? I know now, with Fringe Advisory Co, it’s a little bit more on your own, but when you were at bigger firms, did people know about outside-of-work-Aaron?

Aaron: Yes, to a degree. Working at a large global firm, you talk about that “and” stuff only to a degree. What did you do this weekend? Oh, great. Okay, pleasantries done, moving on. There’s a little bit of that, but it was also something that I weaved into work even then where my bosses at the time knew that I love technology and things like this, so they put me on those types of accounts. That dovetailed into me building the group there that I built there to do outsource controller and CFO work because they knew I liked it and the tech and all that stuff. Somebody knew about it, and it dovetailed into opportunities and stuff along those lines. It wasn’t like a direct conversation, if you will. It was more over time.

John: Right, but it is cool that they at least recognized that and that skill set and let you thrive because then you’re, man, this is the greatest. It’s not even like going to work. You’re just doing cool stuff, and I’m getting paid for this. I would do this for free.

Aaron: Exactly. Exactly.

John: That’s neat. How much does it matter for leadership to create that space for people to be able to share those outside-of-work interests? Or how much is it on the individual to just maybe just grab the bull by the horns and maybe start in a small circle?

Aaron: I think it really is on both sides of the coin for the responsibility, but if management is trying to be intentional about bringing that into the culture, then it’s more on management. That’s something that even at my past firm and now at Fringe that I’ve always been very conscious about wanting to build that culture of we’re working with friends versus colleagues. That means a lot of things to a lot of different people, but more so you’re working with humans. These are people that have good days, bad days. They’re going to need your help. You’re going to need their help. They’re people that you want to be around and want to talk about all this extra stuff versus just those pleasantries.

We built a group there and the same thing here. Our constant touch base is, being virtual and everything, there’s a lot of — you plan an hour call to do a touch base. You know that there’s going to be 20 minutes of just talking about nothing to do with the work and just talking about what’s going on in each of your lives and chatting and having that more water cooler talk, if you will. I think it’s intentional. As a firm owner now, I plan my touch base meetings to be extra-long so that there’s time like that to talk about that and encourage it, more so than anything else.

John: I love that so much. Because especially with the remote working, we don’t pass each other in the hallways. We don’t duck into each other’s offices. We don’t accidentally bump into each other, go to lunch or whatever. You really have to be intentional with, hey, what’s up? Let’s just talk. Because so many times, you jump on the video chat, you talk about work and then the screen goes black. It’s like, what the hell, was that good? I don’t even know. What’s going on? I love how you’ve padded it and really are intentional with and almost starting with the, hey, how’s life, type of thing. Because you can’t really talk work then at the end go, oh, yeah, by the way, how’s life? It’s like, no, no, let’s lead with this, type of thing.

Aaron: Exactly. That is literally what we lead with every call, just like, what’s going on with you? What did you do this morning? What did you do yesterday? Whatever it is. We’re even implementing and starting to use Discord to have more free-flowing chat and video conversations that can be on — in essence, I’ve been contemplating having just a Discord channel that’s always on and open that, hey, if you’re sitting around, you could jump in and just chat with each other and talk; versus, oh, let me schedule a time on your calendar to do this that and the other thing.

John: I love that idea, man. That’s awesome.

Aaron: Essentially bringing that open door policy that managers always talk about in bigger companies. Oh, my door’s always open, feel free to just stop in and say hi. When you’re working virtually, you don’t have that, or you can’t do that. You have to schedule a call. If you’re on an open Discord group, then they can just literally jump in and ask you a question, all the same. I’ve been starting to do that also, which has been fun.

John: That’s cool. Or even if there’s a time. Okay, for this hour or two hours, whatever, it’s on. Hang out and chat and whatever. As long as people are getting their work done then this should be happening because the human-to-human connection is how work happens, at the end of the day. I love that idea, man. That’s such a great idea that everyone listening can easily implement this afternoon, type of thing. It’s that easy.

Aaron: Exactly.

John: How much does finding out about someone’s “ands” create a different relationship than other people that are around you that are just good at their job?

Aaron: It’s night and day. With some of my team members, talking to them and then finding out how into video games they are or into cooking and things like that, it allows you to make such a different connection with them. I also like video games, or I used to, more so when I had time to play them, but I grew up playing video games and everything.

John: Sure.

Aaron: Then you have someone who’s in their early 20s working for you that also loves it, and that’s what they do in their spare time and everything. I give all my team members a stipend essentially, every month, whether they want to use it on lunch or breakfast or anything. On the corporate card, they can use X dollars a month, but I encourage them to use it on anything. Essentially, this could be food every day, or you want to go to the movies. I don’t care. It’s for extra stuff. The first month that I did it, this guy goes, and he buys a new fancy keyboard. The next month, he buys a little projector so that he could play his games on the wall. He bought a Bluetooth speaker. Every month he just saved the stipend for that and just retrofitted his whole gaming outfit on the company, which I’m fine with. Knowing that he does that and knowing that he enjoys that, makes a whole different connection with him as my team member. Versus, hey, great you show up nine to five, and you do your work and okay, great, you’re good at your job, you’re not good at your job, and move on. That dovetails into the beginning of every one of those conversations. Hey, what game were you playing this weekend? Did you hear about this new thing that came out? You’re able to connect a lot more.

John: I love how you remember and then you’re asking about it, which shows that individual, wow, Aaron cares about me as a person because he hired all of me and not just the technical skills part. He cares about all of me, and he wants to know about all of me, sort of a thing. It’s such a simple, but not easy thing, apparently, of just care. Just care.

Aaron: Care for the whole person, not just the work person. I also think that’s, to the point of your whole podcast about what’s the “and”, I think it dovetails into that because, for example, my boss knew enough that they knew I liked tech, so they put me on tech clients. That dovetailed into a whole career in the startup field and dealing with and loving it and being passionate about that and then doing what I do today. Had they not done that, I may or may not have been put on that client, may or may not have been given the liberty to do X, Y and Z down the road. Even they weren’t actively asking about it, but they remembered enough to give me those opportunities. I look at it the same way. If I can know that this person likes to do these types of things, hey, maybe if I’m building out this type of automation and they really like to tinker or play with stuff like that, this might be really fun for them. Giving them a bunch of time to say, hey, go figure this out and challenge yourself, and we’ll work through it; is a lot more rewarding to them than, hey, go reconcile this or go make this forecast. A little bit different.

John: Totally. Then the person that likes a thousand-piece jigsaw puzzles, you go do the forecast. You go analyze this thing that’s all nitty-gritty and whatever.

Aaron: Exactly. It ends up impacting what they do. I had another employee who really like to do things like that with visual dashboards and things looking pretty and everything. I told him, “I’m thrilled that you love to do this. I have no problem with you spending time doing this.” A week later, this was for a brand-new client, the old accounting firm had been using some Excel basic tabular formulas of stuff; he comes back the next week for our weekly touch base with this client with this entire visual graphic dashboard Excel file, drill-downs and everything. The client’s jaw dropped to the floor. I loved it. I was like, this is fantastic. Then had him do it on five more clients, and he’s having the time of his life. He’s energized by it. He’s looking up how to do things better and more efficient in Excel and how to interface with these things. He’s now having fun doing what he’s doing versus it just being work. He’s still getting his stuff done. That’s the minimum. You’ve got to get your work done. If you get your work done, then play on whatever you want to play on. At that point, I don’t care what you do.

John: I think we’re all doing the minimum. We’re all trying. Sure, there are some people mailing it in or whatever, but 99% of us are trying, and we’re getting our work done. There’s so much more. The joy that these people have now at work, like you said, it’s more than just work. Now it’s a joyful experience. Why shouldn’t there be some emotion and some positive things like that happening at work? You harness that energy and that enthusiasm and that passion for their “and” or these other skills that they have, and let’s ride it. Ride that wave. I love it, man. That’s awesome.

Aaron: 1000%. Also, in today’s world where we’re virtual, and I have an opinion a lot of companies do virtual wrong. They just replicate the in-work experience, just you’re sitting at home. It’s more isolation.

John: It’s a different animal.

Aaron: It’s not the same.

John: Yes, exactly.

Aaron: In the true form of virtual, in my opinion, of making work just integrate into part of your daily life and not being, I block out these hours to do work. It’s more of this ebb and flow throughout the day. I think in that type of virtual environment, it becomes so much more important where, if someone’s sitting there for an hour playing with a software because they enjoy that or something like that, that doesn’t feel like work. It’s not draining them. Yet if they then go off on their own and they’re doing something around town because, in the middle of the day, they need to go do something because work is not asynchronous; it gets to the point where then they’re thinking about that because they’re enjoying it. Even though they’re doing other stuff and whatever, their brains don’t stop working on your work problems. You actually get more productivity.

At least for me, personally, when I’m stuck on a problem, if I go and do something totally different and my brain’s still working on it; all of a sudden, randomly, the solution pops in my head. Great, I just figured it out. Versus, had I been in front of my desk trying to figure that out for two hours, I probably would not have figured it out. I would have been so frustrated, so drained, would have gotten nothing else done for the day. I think in that context where we’re going in and out of work constantly, throughout the day, it makes it so much easier to meld all that together if you’re actively including what people enjoy doing.

John: I love that, man. That’s so spot on. You’re right. That “and” is a break, and it’s always awesome. When you’re talking about your “and” or you’re doing your “and”, it’s always great. Even when you’re remodeling a bathroom, it’s hard and you’re cussing and you’re throwing whatever, it’s still awesome. Work, sometimes it’s awesome, sure, but sometimes it’s not.

Aaron: Sometimes it sucks.

John: If we’re being honest. Sometimes it sucks. If you can have something that you can go to as just a reprieve, like you said, subconsciously, you’re thinking about it anyway; then you come back refreshed. You come back with new ideas. You come back with a solution. Everybody wins.

Aaron: Exactly. I think also the “and” and what we do outside of work, sometimes teaches us very simple lessons that we forget about when we’re in work. You bring up cursing while doing projects. I just have this vivid thought back to when I was tearing apart the engine of my car and doing everything with that, watching the video, something not quite the same, trying to figure out how it applies to what I’m doing. Just working on something for two to three hours, not being able to take a nut off or a bolt off because it’s rusted on or whatever, I’m not using quite the right tool, but just trying to figure it out, three hours in, about to break down. I can’t figure this out. The emotion of that is so strong even now, and this is four years later. Just finally giving in and saying, I have to go get the right tool. They said this tool. It costs money. I didn’t want to spend the money on it. Okay, I’ll go get the right tool. I go out to the store, get the right tool, come back, put the tool on; literally, 30 seconds later, it comes off. No problems. No nothing. I had just been sitting there for three hours pulling my hair out wanting to jump off a cliff with how frustrated I was.

John: Trying to save 20 bucks.

Aaron: Exactly. Exactly. That’s really what it was. It was a $25 tool, but I was like, I’m never going to use this other than this one thing. Realistically, am I ever going to do this one thing again? Maybe once in four years. That lesson of using the right tool even if it costs a little bit more money is so now ingrained in me because I had this visceral reaction to it, that when one of my team members comes to me and they’re doing something manual, they’re like, oh, this is going to take a lot of time. Oh, but I heard about this tool or whatever. I’m like, buy it, get it. I don’t care. It’s going to make your life better. It’s going to make you less drained.

This happened literally two weeks ago. It’s funny because I think QuickBooks notifies you when people connect other apps to it and stuff like that. All of a sudden, I saw these three apps connected that my team was doing trial versions on. I was just like, what’s going on? What are you trying to solve for? They’re like, oh, we have to do this where we import all this stuff and edit this and blah-blah. I’m like, we have a tool that does that. I have this tool that can interface with it. I have to pay per user whatever. They’re like, oh, no, I don’t want you to pay extra for me. It’s not that important. I could do it manually. I’m like, no, no, no. This is the right tool for the right job. That small cost is so minimal versus you actually feeling good about what you’re doing as my employee.

That comes from this visceral reaction to being frustrated with doing something on my car and being covered in oil and just frustrated to, now, anytime someone has a need like that, my gut reaction is, is it the right tool? Does it solve the need? Great. It costs more money? Doesn’t matter. It’s going to get this done in five seconds. You’re going to be happier. It’s a one-time thing, it’s a recurring thing, whatever it is, just using the right tools. That’s a very simple thing. We all know there’s the adage, the right tool for the right project, whatever, all that stuff. You forget about these things when you’re in the moment, especially when there’s cost associated with it. A lot of people’s gut reactions are, oh, I don’t want to spend more money on that. That eats into my profits or this, that or the other thing. It’s like…

John: Exactly. Three hours of sitting there trying to do it, for 25 bucks, you could have saved three hours and the mental anguish. Even now, four years later, bringing it up, being like, oh. Then you’re saving your people. That’s how so much of these outside-of-work things spill over into work, subconsciously. Whether we want them to or not, they’re just going to. I think that’s such a great example for people to realize. These things matter. Find out what they are and harness them and lean into them. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe has a hobby or passion outside of work that they feel like no one’s going to care about because it has nothing to do with my job?

Aaron: One, you as a person are more than your job, so don’t be afraid to be you. I’m a functional nerd, I call it all the time. 90% of people can’t relate to that, but then randomly, you’ll have someone that relates to it and then you build a connection that’s so strong that you never would have built otherwise. For someone who’s scared to show their “and” because they think it’s so strange and weird and whatever, just start trickling it into conversations because you never know if someone else is just as weird as you. Really, that’s usually what ends up happening. That example of my employee who’s a gamer, he was so hesitant to talk about it at first. Once he did and I brought it up, he lights up on conversations now, when he gets to talk about the new game he played or whatever it is. He gets loud and vocal and energized. Then we talk about accounting after, but he has that moment where he just has so much fun.

John: He’s alive.

Aaron: Exactly. He would never bring it up on his own. Just trickling it in, you never know who’s going to take an interest. You never know who’s going to give you that freedom to be alive and to be yourself. Also, for me, personally, I was always a techie and a nerd about all of it. I would disappear for two hours to go learn how a new software works to use this one cool unique feature that saves you ten minutes per tax return that no one else figured out how to use. People would wonder why I just disappeared into that flow state for two hours. I was probably viewed a little bit weird because they didn’t know what I was doing. When they learned what I was doing and then thought it was cool and everything, it opened up different doors and actually changed the perception of certain things. Words of encouragement, just be you. Have the courage to just say what you enjoy and what you like because you never know what’s going to come of it and what positive things — look, there might be negative things too. I’m not going to say it’s always all positive.

John: Yeah, as long as it’s not illegal, and it’s not taboo, then we’re good. If it’s a place that doesn’t want to know or care, then maybe you’re not at the right place.

Aaron: Being somewhere that you’re respected and appreciated and valued and that you enjoy, that also expedites that conversation of, hey, should I look elsewhere, from that standpoint.

John: That’s awesome, man. I love it, just hearing how you can actually see people come alive. I have the original Nintendo downstairs.

Aaron: So do I.

John: From when I was a kid, the OG, original one. It’s awesome. It’s cool now how the cartridges, there’s so much more data can be stored on a chip now. I have one cartridge with 100 Nintendo games on it. I don’t even need extra cartridges. It’s just the one. It’s just like, this is great. It’s just cool to talk to people about that, if that’s what they’re into. It’s like, all right, this is great.

I feel before we wrap this up, since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, that we turn the tables. We make this the first episode of the Aaron Berson podcast. Thanks for having me on as your first guest. I’m all yours, man, whatever you want to ask.

Aaron: I love it. I love it. Let’s steal something from you. What’s your “and”? I think I know what it is, but let’s go with that real quick.

John: I’m way into college football, super college football. Music, I love going to concerts and play the piano. Travel, and ice cream, for sure, is definitely one of my “ands”.

Aaron: So you have a few.

John: Yeah. Comedy, when I was working in the accounting world, doing comedy on the side was certainly an “and” then. That’s what really got it all started, I guess.

Aaron: Gotcha. What’s your funniest joke?

John: Oh, my funniest joke. A joke, joke, like a street joke?

Aaron: I don’t know. You’re the comedian, not me. You tell me.

John: It’s only funny to you, man, because you’re the only audience right now. There’s one that seems to have some traction, and it plays on Sirius and Pandora that I see it sometimes when the McRib is back in McDonald’s. I think that the McRib is like the deadbeat dad of the fast-food sandwiches because it’s gone for six months and then it comes back for only like a week or two, and we’re all supposed to be excited about it. Where’s the McRib been? Locked up with the Hamburglar? Fillet-o-fish has been here all along, and Fillet-o-fish is gross. It’s just like a square hockey puck. What is this?

Aaron: I hear you. Nice.

John: That’s a good one that people seem to enjoy. Then the next time you see a McRib, you’re going to be like, ah dammit, John, get it.

Aaron: Next time I see someone from England trying the American McRib sandwich they have over there, that’s not what I’m going to think about.

John: There you go. There you go.

Aaron: Great. Last question for you. You’ve been doing this a while, hearing everyone’s “ands”. What is the most interesting or unique one that you’ve run across? I’m curious. You’ve got so many podcast episodes. It’s hard to watch through or listen through all of them.

John: There are so many, man. Everything from a guy who designs custom suits and has them made for you. He measures you, full-on tailor experience, custom suits, has them made, brings them, all that. He’s a forensics accountant and then does this on the side just because he really likes fashion. Or somebody that was an engineer and a print model. She’s a chemical engineer in Australia and is a model. You’re just like, this is awesome. Going out, doing all the chemical engineering stuff and then photography and modeling on the side, just for fun. Then there’s also somebody that makes kombucha at home. I don’t even know what that’s all about, but let’s talk about it. Like you said, to some people it’s weird, but we’re all weird in our own way. That’s maybe what the show should be, is let’s get weird.

Aaron: What’s you weird?

John: Yeah, what makes you unique and different and what lights you up, and it’s all good. Like I said, if it’s not illegal and it’s not taboo, then the gloves are off. Fair game. Even if it’s not something that I do, it’s still interesting to me. It’s really cool to see people light up, like you’ve witnessed. To see that animation and to see that is just such an awesome thing. If we could do that at work every day, every other day, how great work would be.

Aaron: Oh, yeah. Really, we should strive to do that in every aspect of our lives, not just work.

John: Very true. Very true.

Aaron: I see people even do that with friends. They’re not their true selves with “friends” because they’re worried about being judged and everything. That’s something I’ve learned. Just to be yourself. I’m weird as all hell. I own it. I know it. I love it. If you want to come be weird with me, great. Let’s go geek out about something because my weird thing is learning about whatever else is going on in the world. You want to teach me how to make kombucha, I’m going to be there and try to figure it out with you.

John: Right. Exactly. Or even how to spell it. I’m not even positive. I know there’s a K.

Aaron: I will not drink it, but I’ll learn about it with you.

John: I’ll make it. There you go, man. That’s awesome. I really appreciate you taking time to be a part of What’s Your “And”?, man. This has been really fun.

Aaron: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

John: Totally. Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Aaron outside of work or maybe some of his projects or connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use, and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 493 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture, and I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and Goodreads and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Jaclyn Badeau. She’s the president of Badeau Consulting in Lexington, Kentucky, and now she’s with me here today. Jaclyn, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Jaclyn: Thanks, John. Looking forward to our conversation.

John: Yeah, this is going to be so much fun. I’m so looking forward to this. I have some rapid-fire questions here, get to know Jaclyn out of the gate. Hope you’re ready. Here we go. Your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Jaclyn: Oh, definitely PC.

John: Yeah, I’m the same. I don’t even think they’d let me go into Mac stores. They’re just like, you know what? You’re not cool enough.

Jaclyn: Yeah, I’m not tech savvy enough to be able to figure that out. It could drive me crazy, so, no.

John: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. How about your first concert?

Jaclyn: Oh, my goodness. First concert, a little affair many years ago, it was Alanis Morissette. Fun fact, went to Alanis Morissette’s 25th reunion tour last September 2021, so, got to come full circle with that. It was awesome.

John: That’s incredible. I totally remember that. That’s amazing. Oh, my goodness. All right. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Jaclyn: Oh, my goodness, something peanut butter. Right now, I have this chocolate peanut butter cup that I’m obsessed with, and I just have to not go down the frozen aisle section because I will grab a tub every time, so, chocolate peanut butter.

John: That’s a good pick. That’s a good pick. Absolutely. Okay, more oceans or mountains?

Jaclyn: Oh, both, but I love the ocean with the mountains. Even in California, you get that mix. I would say we take an ocean vacation, but we hike a lot in the mountains too because we’re in Kentucky and go down to Tennessee, so that’s a big one. Ocean.

John: Oceans. Yeah. There you go. All right. Very cool. How about, since you have an accounting background, this is a fun one, balance sheet or income statement?

Jaclyn: Ooh, fun, right? I remember I was taught balance sheet tells you everything because you’ve got to see where you’re at, and the income statement is just the changes in it. I was always taught balance sheet is like the king. You’ve got to verify that. I kind of like the income statement. I feel like, as a business owner, I spend most of my time on the income statement.

John: Yeah, absolutely, as a business owner. It’s like that cash flow, maybe? That’s also a good one. Would you say you’re more of an early bird or night owl?

Jaclyn: Oh, my goodness. Can I be neither?

John: That’s possible.

Jaclyn: I’m in bed by 10pm, I’m going to tell you. That’s my bedtime. Everyone knows it, even my nieces. They’re over there like, oh, Aunt Jac’s bed time’s at 10pm. We’ve got to go. I like my good eight solid hours of sleep, or more.

John: Yeah, or more.

Jaclyn: Or more. Yes. My body requires it.

John: Just tell people that. I think my mind requires it, too, even more. Absolutely. How about, do you have a favorite number?

Jaclyn: Yes, 11. That’s easy. Eleven because there is a story. There’s a background. My husband and I met and started dating on September 11th, actually, of 1998. That was before everything with New York and everything. 11 has always been our number. Yeah, 11th is very special.

John: That’s excellent reason. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Jaclyn: Oh, my goodness. You can’t see me folks, but I’m holding a real book. I do a little bit of all actually. Hard books for leadership books because I highlight, and I use them for all the stuff I do. Audible when I’m going on road trips. I actually just did one last month. I have my Kindle, and my Kindle has all the fun stuff, all the fiction and all the fun juicy stuff. Yeah. I do all.

John: Yeah, because with the Kindle, no one can see what you’re reading.

Jaclyn: Exactly. No. I like it.

John: You can’t see the cover.

Jaclyn: No. No one has a clue, and I love it.

John: Right? I didn’t even thought of that. That’s a great point. That’s a great point. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Jaclyn: Oh, my goodness. I’m going to say neither with a side of Star Wars because every time the movies come out, there’s a group of us who always go to the theater, not at the midnight showing because I’m too old for that. Remember, I go to bed at ten.

John: Right. I slept through all of them.

Jacklyn: Exactly. The next day, we’ll do brunch and then the Star Wars. I also love Star Wars. I have Star Wars pajamas and sweaters, so I like the idea. I like Yoda, and I love baby Yoda. I would say neither with a side sign of Star Wars.

John: Okay, if you had to pick, it’d be Star Wars, but it’s more of the everything else about it, not itself.

Jaclyn: Not the movie itself. Yes.

John: How about a favorite cereal from when you were a kid or even now?

Jaclyn: Oh, my goodness. It’s hilarious you asked me. I hardly ever eat cereal. I actually didn’t eat cereal growing up. However, guess what I ate for breakfast this morning. I ate Apple Jacks.

John: Are you serious? That’s so neat.

Jaclyn: I swear.

John: What?

Jaclyn: I swear. It was of one of those things. You go to the grocery aisle, and you get that nostalgia or something. I’m like the cinnamon, the apple. I love Apple Cinnamon stuff, too. I just grabbed the box. My husband is a cereal lover, so I grabbed him some Cocoa Pebbles. Apple Jacks, Cocoa Pebbles, I love those things.

John: Yeah, your parents aren’t watching anymore. It’s like, I can totally eat this.

Jaclyn: Exactly. It’s hilarious.

John: They have the Cocoa Peanut Butter Puffs, I feel like.

Jaclyn: I haven’t tried those. I may have to.

John: Yeah. That’s incredible. You never eat cereal, and then this morning.

Jaclyn: I literally ate it this morning.

John: That’s so good. How about, do you have a favorite actor or an actress?

Jaclyn: Oh, my goodness. I love so many people. When you said that, the first thing that came to my mind was Jim Carrey. I watch Jim Carrey. Growing up, I love comedy, I love to laugh, I love to make people laugh. I love humor and things. Jim Carrey, all the stupid, funny, yes, yes, yes. I love watching Dumb and Dumber and everything just on repeat. All the ACE Venturas. I used to do impressions. I will not do one today, but I love it. Yes.

John: That’s so great. He’s my favorite, easily.

Jaclyn: Oh, is he?

John: Hands down.

Jaclyn: Awesome.

John: Liar, Liar. Me, Myself and Irene. Earth Girls are Easy, going way back in the day. In Living Color, of course, was when he mostly blew up. That’s so great, so great. Would you say more talk or text?

Jaclyn: Ooh, combination because my whole business, it’s talk, but I feel like friends and family, they’re all about texting. I do a ton of texting. I think that most people I text — I’m on a group chat with my mom, my sister, and it’s a daily thing. My business is all about talking in person, on the phone, virtual meetings. That’s just what I do.

John: Yeah, a mix. I’ll take it. I’ll take it. How about a favorite color?

Jaclyn: Blue. Easy.

John: Oh, mine, too. All right. How about a least favorite color?

Jaclyn: Oh, I will say green. I don’t know. I think it’s more of like the hunter green shade. I don’t know what it is.

John: The dark green?

Jaclyn: Yeah. Now, I love plants. Over in my office, I have plants all over the place. I love plants. I love the growth. I love tending to them. I’m all about plants, but to have hunter green on my walls, I just can’t do it. I don’t know what it is. I love olive green. I love army green, probably because my husband and my dad were in the military, so I love camouflage. I love all that. Hunter green, it’s not in my palette in my home.

John: That’s so perfect, and blue makes sense because Kentucky blue, of course.

Jaclyn: Kentucky blue, the ocean, my logo, yeah, all of it. I love blue. It’s calming.

John: Yeah, I wasn’t sure if least favorite color would be like an orange, like a Tennessee, but then you got the bangles. Oh, which one?

Jaclyn: Yeah. Oh, I love the orange, too, but it’s Bengals, for sure. Now, I don’t like yellow-black combination because that’s the Steelers. Number one opponent of Bengals is Steelers. No, no, no, you can’t have that combo.

John: Right. Exactly. Exactly. I love it. That’s so good. How about, we’ve got three more, puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw puzzle?

Jaclyn: I would say what I played more recently would be jigsaw probably because a couple of years in COVID, the puzzle, everyone was making a run for puzzles. I did a few, but I say that I would do more Sudoku versus that. I think it was just COVID time period where I was doing a lot of jigsaw.

John: I think a lot of us were, for sure. All right. How about a TV show that you would binge-watch from all time?

Jaclyn: So many. I binge-watch all the time. I would say, if you look back at some classics, I love The Office. It’s so inappropriate, and it’s hilarious. I can pull great clips for all my trainings also, through The Office. Schitt’s Creek was fantastic. That was another series that I’m definitely going to go back and binge-watch. Those are two that come to my mind immediately.

John: That’s awesome. The last one, favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Jaclyn: Oh, my goodness. Yeah, that’s a great question. Besides my dogs that I own or have that are cuddly and cute.

John: That counts.

Jaclyn: Yeah. Okay, that counts, so, my doggies, yeah. I have two dogs, Jet and JD. They’re still in that puppy stage. JD just turned one in February. Jet is one in April. They’re still in that puppy stage, and cute, but they keep us active.

John: Right, a lot of energy. What kind of dogs are they?

Jaclyn: JD is a Border Collie-German Shepherd mix. She has to have some Husky in her because her fur is just so thick and pretty. Jet is a black Lab-Aussie Shepherd mix. He has to have some terrier in him because he’s also short, but he looks just like a black Lab. He has all these characteristics of an Aussie Shepherd. He loves to lay on his back, which Aussie Shepherds do all the time. It’s really cute seeing them. We rescued them.

John: That’s so great. So cool. Let’s talk sports. How did you grow up, in a sports family, as a sports fan? How did this get started?

Jaclyn: Yeah. I was always around sports. I played soccer. I was also a cheerleader for many, many years. I’m cheerleading through third grade, onto high school, being co-captain of the varsity squad. It’s football games, and it’s basketball. I’d really get into it. I’d be yelling in the game. Also, my family, huge sports family. My dad loves college basketball, which is how I got into that, and then just everyone — all the time we go to my grandparents’ house, there’s a sport. There’s NFL on. There’s college basketball. There’s something on. That’s how I got into it. Then my husband and I, he also likes sports. He grew up in sports and playing baseball and stuff. We met so young. I was 15, and he was 17. We just always loved sports, started going to Cincinnati Bengals games and then got season tickets about 10 years or so ago and have loved it.

John: That’s awesome. Did you grow up a Bengals fan then?

Jaclyn: Yeah. Well, in Kentucky, we don’t have an NFL team, so the closest is Cincy. My family’s team was always Cincy. Those games are on, and you heard everyone talking about it, growing up. I just jumped in on that, and my husband was the same. He’s actually from California, but he lived in Kentucky when he was at a younger age. He also had to just grab onto the Bengals too, because again, it’s the closest team. It’s about an hour from our house. Even though they haven’t had a ton of Super Bowl appearances or anything like that over the years, you still have to root.

John: They did this year. That’s all that matters.

Jaclyn: I know they did.

John: That’s all that matters.

Jaclyn: It was so awesome. Yes.

John: Yeah. You’re season tickets for 10 years. You’re not just like, hey, I’m going to jump on the bandwagon, all of a sudden. You’ve been through some stuff, so you’ve earned it.

Jaclyn: We have been through some stuff. I love that. You’re right. Literally, a few seasons ago, winning only two games where we can’t win a playoff game. My goodness. We’d make it to the playoffs some seasons and could not get past that first game. It was so frustrating, but we would stay there until the last second, to go off the clock because you’re just a fan. We’re not the bandwagon people.

John: I love it so much, and you actually went to the Super Bowl, which is so awesome. The pictures are at whatsyourand.com. Everyone could see. That’s so incredible. I thought only celebrities were at that game, and they were. It was celebrities, as well as Jaclyn.

Jaclyn: And me. Yes.

John: So cool.

Jaclyn: Celebrities and Jaclyn. That was exactly right. It was so amazing, such a great experience. We went back and forth whether we were going to go. It was one of those once-in-a-lifetime things. The Bengals, we hadn’t been since late ‘80s. Again, we’re true fans, and it’s so exciting.

John: The Ickey Shuffle.

Jaclyn: The Ickey Shuffle. He was there. Ickey was there.

John: That’s so great.

Jaclyn: I don’t know if they aired it on TV, but they asked him to do the Ickey Shuffle in the intro, before we kicked off the game. It was amazing. There were a ton of celebrities, like you said, some of them very close to where we were sitting. It’s amazing because it’s one of those events of the year type of thing.

John: Right. Oh, yeah, of the world.

Jaclyn: Yeah. Bengals fans, of course, I’m in my jersey and my gear, so was my husband, of course. Then you have the Rams fans. Then you have a lot of people who are just in their church clothes or just dressed up. What’s happening? Oh, my goodness. It didn’t really hit me until seeing people around me.

John: That’s so funny.

Jaclyn: It was a really big thing.

John: Clearly, they’re SEC college football fans. They never got out of their frat boy outfits that they wear to college football games.

Jaclyn: Exactly.

John: You don’t have to wear a shirt and tie to football. You know that, right?

Jaclyn: I know. it’s amazing what everyone was wearing.

John: Church clothes.

Jaclyn: Yes.

John: That’s so good. That’s so good. I love that so much. Do you find that — I’m a huge, huge sports fan. It’s an emotional journey for me. I’m invested in this. I’m not playing, but I’m almost playing. That’s how it feels. I’m a part of it.

Jaclyn: You’re the next player, right? Yeah. The players are actually, are counting on us. That’s why they wave their hands because they’re trying to pump up the crowd because it’s like this energy. Our Bengals players do that all the time. Mixon would get up on the bench and raise his hands. We know that’s when he wants us to be loud. Even in UK basketball, it’s the same thing. They actually call the crowd, the sixth man on the team. They call literally our fans, the sixth man. Football, basketball, it’s all about getting in there. Yes, I’m screaming, I’m rooting, I’m yelling. Sometimes, if I’m not feeling well, I’m trying to restrain myself, but it’s so hard because you’re just so invested.

John: Yeah, it’s like I better not have any calls tomorrow. Luckily, for me, it’s college football mostly, so, Sundays. I can rest, but I’ve got a couple of cough drops in my pocket. Even if it’s warm, it doesn’t matter. Every quarter or every whatever, just keep it going. I love that. That’s so great. It’s so great. I imagine the Super bowl would have to be probably one of your favorite moments, but do you have another favorite moment that comes to mind, of a game that you’ve been to?

Jaclyn: Oh, my goodness. Well, one of the particular ones that come to my mind when I’m thinking about the Bengals, so Super Bowl, obviously that has to be number one. Obviously, I wanted a different outcome, but even though —

John: It’s still a great game.

Jaclyn: It is still a great game.

John: Great game, great halftime still.

Jaclyn: Oh, yeah, it was awesome, but thinking about the first playoff game of this season when we won, we hadn’t won since like ‘91, and we were at home. It was just like, oh, my gosh, we made it. That was awesome. Then we went to Tennessee. We actually went down to Nashville and saw the Titans game. They’re number one. It was like, oh, the little Bengals, they’re coming into the big Titans stadium, who had been on by, first round or whatever. No one gave us any credit for trying to potentially win, and then we won. It was like in shock because all around us were all these Titans fans and then me and my husband. I’m yelling. It’s crazy. I don’t know. All the playoff games stand out for me.

John: What a dream season. That’s for sure. Is this, the sports, something that you talk about with clients? Do they know about the Bengals and the Kentucky basketball and all the sports?

Jaclyn: Absolutely. It’s been a great connector, a great relationship-builder. Not all my clients like sports, but some of them do. Especially in Kentucky, with the Bengals, that’s the team you really root for, and the Wildcats, Kentucky Wildcats for basketball. That’s a big team you root for. I have a lot of clients who were texting me during the Superbowl and during playoff games, oh, my gosh, congratulations; telling me congratulations. Of course, I didn’t do anything, but I’m like, yeah.

John: Still, though, you’ve been along here for the journey. I messaged you.

Jaclyn: You did. Yeah.

John: I was like, this is incredible. This is crazy.

Jaclyn: It was fantastic. Yeah, it’s a great conversation with people, my clients and people in my network and friends and family who also know I’m passionate about it, and they’re passionate about sports in general. It’s a good conversation topic to get to really know your clients, too, and get to know what they enjoy to do. It’s like your What’s Your “And”? That’s really what I do in my business, too. It’s what drives them. What are they passionate about? That’s how you tap into and really build the relationships with people.

John: Yeah, I love that so much. It’s really interesting to me, too, when I’ll meet people, and I’ll be like, what’s an outside-of work-passion? They’re like, well, I’m really passionate about helping my clients. I’m like, no, you’re not. You’re only passionate about it because they’re paying you. You’re not doing it for free. What are you actually truly passionate about, outside of work, nothing work-related at all? Who are you? It’s really cool to just get people to open up and be like, wow, that’s incredible. We’re not making fun of each other like we did in seventh grade. Now, it’s the opposite. It’s like, if you’re the same, I’m going to make fun of you, but if you’re something different and cool and really light up about it, then, yeah, let’s hear it. That’s so cool to hear that you’re experiencing that in the real world as well, which is super awesome. That’s for sure. Was this something that you always shared through your career? Because I know you were with public accounting before and then industry for a bit. Was it something that always came up, or was it more now that you have your own consultant firm?

Jaclyn: Yeah, I think that it was more of, as I developed through my career. When I reflect back into really starting in the profession in public accounting, it was very technical. That’s what you’re taught in school. It’s very technical, technical, and it’s really about the clients and their books. I was an auditor of the tax stuff and consulting there too, but I feel that’s what you’re shaped and told to do and taught in school because it is technical. Once you start just being yourself, and I think that’s the key for people. You’ve got to be yourself. Everyone’s a human being. Once you connect on more of that personal level, I mean, when I talk about building relationships, it’s not about knowing people’s medical history,

John: Or drama or something creepy.

Jaclyn: Exactly. No. It’s about just connecting them on that human level and what motivates them, what drives them. Once I started doing that, which is probably, I would say, I didn’t do that really at the very beginning, but quickly, I realized, wait, we’re all humans. You start talking with your peers, and you start opening up to other people. It really hit me as I was progressing in my career, for sure.

John: Yeah. It’s so true. I don’t know why that is, but our education is all the technical skills and learn the technical skills, pass an exam, get certified, whatever, sort of job you have. Technical skills, we pride ourselves on our technical skills, but then you look around, and everyone’s got the same technical skill. I’m not standing out at all. I’m just one of everyone else. There’s a way that’s a lot easier than having to study and learn. It’s just what do you do already? Who are you? Just let that out.

Jaclyn: Yeah. What do you enjoy doing on the weekends? I’m like, well, football and basketball and pampering. I love to go get manis, pedis, massages, facials. I love to set up the pool, go on vacations and travel, read books, just play with my nieces and nephews. That’s what I enjoy doing, hiking and taking our dogs hiking around Kentucky or in other places. That’s who you are, and you also do other things, too, of course, to pay the bills. Sure. It all gets connected because it’s about relationships and just connecting on a human level.

John: I love that. I love that so much. It’s so true. It doesn’t mean that you’re not good at your job, or you’re not dedicated to your career. It’s just that there are also other things that are equally cool and important. Do you have any words of encouragement for people listening that maybe have an “and” that they feel like, well, it has nothing to do with my job, so no one’s going to care?

Jaclyn: I would say that everyone has an “and”. We know that. Obviously, you know that. You’re passionate about it. We all have it. Show people that you’re human. I am certified in emotional intelligence. That’s my basis of the whole practice of what I do. It’s all about being yourself, what makes you happy, and when you start sharing that kind of stuff, you start building those relationships, which helps in the work environment, to make decisions and be more innovative and all those things. There’s a ton of research that supports that. I would just say, just start small because you’re like, oh, I have to tell, it really gets personal, and I’m an introvert. I hear those excuses all the time. I was like, hey, it’s not a dissertation. Just start talking with someone as like, hey. Instead of saying like, how was your weekend, and someone says, fine; go, what did you do this weekend? Guess what, you’re going to start hearing what people do and then you could share. You could even start with asking someone else an open-ended question and then that could be your way to just start sharing yourself and making those true connections. Start small. I’m big on small steps.

John: Yeah, that’s awesome. That’s such great advice for everybody, and just the What’s Your “And”? language gives it a framework because then it’s not just like, creepy. It’s like, who are you? I care. I’m genuinely interested. Just start small. I love that so much. Well, I feel like, before we wrap this up, because this has been so awesome, I really peppered you with questions at the beginning, so I should turn the tables and make this the episode of The Jaclyn Badeau podcast. Thanks for having me on.

Jaclyn: Yes. Welcome, John.

John: I’m all yours.

Jaclyn: Welcome, John, to my podcast with some rapid-fire questions. Let’s hit a couple. What about, what’s your favorite age so far?

John: Oh, wow. That’s a good one. Favorite age. Wow, that’s really a good one.

Jaclyn: I love it. I love when you have to pause, and I love my students, even though I love the awkward silence, I love it.

John: Yeah. Well, I’m just giving it some thought. I’m not just going to throw out, like, 21 because that was amazing, because I was an idiot. You look back. I wasn’t at the time an idiot, but you look back, and you’re like, oh, my goodness. I don’t know, probably now. It’s good. I’m 45, and that’s great. Maybe I wish that I could play soccer a little bit faster and better. My body’s not quite where my brain still is, but it’s good. I feel like the knowledge and the wisdom and the confidence and the things that come with age far outweigh being able to run down a through pass like that. It’s all good. Yeah, I would say now, 45.

Jaclyn: I love it. I know when we’re younger, we always want to be older. Now it’s like, I’m feeling good in my own skin.

John: Yeah. Seinfeld’s got a great bit about that, for sure.

Jaclyn: What about, who do you text the most?

John: Oh, who do I text the most? I guess probably my wife just because it’s like, I’m out and then it’s like, oh, do we need to get anything, or whatever? I would say probably, yeah, that, probably my wife.

Jaclyn: Your wife. Yeah. I’d say a lot of people would say their partner for sure.

John: Not that I don’t like talking to her. It’s just sometimes she’s busy, and I don’t want to interrupt.

Jaclyn: Yes. It’s quick little check-ins or little questions. I send a lot of those to my husband. What about the favorite place you’ve traveled to?

John: Okay, that’s going to be two in particular. Cape Town, South Africa is pretty incredible, and then Costa Rica is also pretty incredible. Although the Maldives and Dubai were pretty awesome. Zanzibar, that’s an island off of Africa, Zanzibar is pretty cool. Not a lot in the US, but there are cool places here that I’ve also been. For some reason, you equate better with longer trip, I don’t know why, or more expensive trip. Even though, I live in Colorado. I can just go up to the mountains, and it’s amazing. I would say all of those. It seems to be a theme of there’s water and an ocean nearby.

Jaclyn: That’s what I was going to say. That’s what it sounds like. You had a theme going on there. You’ve got the mountains, day to day, it sounds like, and then you get your water in, on your vacations.

John: Exactly. Exactly.

Jaclyn: Yeah. What’s your favorite climate season? Because it seems like you like the ocean.

John: Fall.

Jaclyn: Oh, fall. Tell me why.

John: Fall all day. Because I hate sweating and summer is gross, so, fall. It’s when college football is happening. The leaves are changing. It’s starting to cool down. It feels cooler, even if it’s whatever. Yeah, it’s fall all day. Pumpkin pie, there’s Thanksgiving, there’s food, candy on Halloween. All this goodness is happening in the fall. That would definitely be my favorite season, time of the year. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Jaclyn, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This has been a blast.

Jaclyn: Thanks, John. Really appreciate it.

John: Yeah, and everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Jaclyn at the Super Bowl or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re in the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing to the podcast on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to episode 491 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and now listening to it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Beau Osland. He’s a senior partnerships analyst integrations with FindHelp in Denver, Colorado, and now he’s with me here today. Beau, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Beau: Thanks, John. Yeah, excited to be here.

John: Yeah, this is going to be a blast. I’m so excited. I have 17 rapid-fire questions, though, get to know Beau right out of the gate here. Maybe I’ll start with an easy one, Star Wars or Star Trek?

Beau: Oh, okay. Let’s Go Star Wars, and admittedly, haven’t really seen much of either.

John: Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough.

Beau: A little bit of each.

John: Yeah, I haven’t seen much since the original three.

Beau: Sure.

John: I haven’t heard great things about Star Wars since then, so I’m like, I don’t want to ruin it, sort of thing. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Beau: Both.

John: I was going to say I would imagine.

Beau: Yeah, Mac for more of my music and production and then PC more for work and software development.

John: Exactly. Yeah. That’s impressive, man. I can barely do PC, so we’re good. Oh, this will be a fun one. Your first concert.

Beau: First concert was Fastball, actually, and Matchbox Twenty, I think.

John: Yes, I totally remember Fastball. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Wow, that’s going back. Okay. That’s fantastic. All right. How about ice cream, more in a cup or a cone?

Beau: I love ice cream and always, but cone is nice.

John: Cone. Yeah, a little extra sugary, extra calories, whatever it is.

Beau: Yep.

John: How about a favorite movie of all time?

Beau: Let’s see. I’ll give two answers for this as well.

John: Yeah, totally.

Beau: Home Alone 2, Lost in New York. I love that movie for some reason, a lot of sentimental value. It’s always been big in my family for some reason, so, love that. I’ve always loved Big Fish as well, Tim Burton.

John: Yeah, totally. Okay. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw puzzles?

Beau: I’m going to go Sudoku. I play a lot of that.

John: There you go. How about a favorite color?

Beau: Kind of go back and forth between blue and green, lately, liking green.

John: Okay. Yeah. Two solid answers. Absolutely. How about a least favorite color?

Beau: Brown, boring.

John: That’s by far the most popular least favorite. I don’t know. I just contradicted myself in some way, but brown’s always, yeah. It’s like the dark brown just ugh. Yeah, totally. Are you more of a talk or text?

Beau: Text. Generational perhaps. Yeah.

John: And the IT side of you. You’re like, yeah, let’s just get to the chase here.

Beau: Exactly.

John: Do you have a favorite actor or actress?

Beau: I don’t think I do, actually.

John: Fair enough. Yeah. I like them and dislike all of them the same. There you go. This is a fun one that somebody threw on me a while ago, and I thought I’d spring it on you, socks or shoes?

Beau: Oh, wow. Socks. I love wearing nice comfy wool socks around the house, year-round, unless it’s too hot.

John: Exactly. Socks can get super fun with all the designs and like, who knows what’s on there? You see somebody wearing pants or a suit, and then all of a sudden you see their socks. You’re like, whoa, party going on. All right. All right. What’s a typical breakfast?

Beau: Typical breakfast for me, banana, always like having a banana, and then a cup of cold brew and then kind of rotate through maybe making a couple of eggs or a bowl of cereal. I love cereal still in my 30s.

John: Maybe I’ll throw this one in there then, what’s the favorite cereal of all time?

Beau: Favorite cereal of all time, Life cereal.

John: Oh, really? Okay.

Beau: Yeah.

John: All right. Mikey likes it. Nice. There you go. How about a favorite number?

Beau: Favorite number, 15 and 11.

John: Okay, okay. Are there reasons?

Beau: I played basketball growing up and was always number 15. I was always a huge Nuggets fan. When Carmelo Anthony joined the team, it kind of furthered my love for number 15. Now, Nicola Jokic on the Nuggets who’s 15, so that’s my answer there. 11 has always been a lucky number. I was born on the 11th, so always like that, too.

John: Plus, there are two ones. What’s better than one? Two ones. It’s right there. How about your books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Beau: I will go with audio book.

John: Okay.

Beau: Yeah. I have a hard time focusing when I’m reading books and end up having to reread the pages, so I tend to like listening more, auditory.

John: Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. We’ve got two more. Summer, winter, spring or fall.

Beau: Fall, favorite time of year, favorite weather when it’s starting to get cooler, but still some longer days than winter.

John: Exactly. I’m a huge fan, fall it is, absolutely. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Beau: Favorite thing I own is probably the first guitar that I bought with my own money.

John: Nice.

Beau: It’s probably the longest guitar that I still have after all these years and is the main one I like to play.

John: Yeah. What kind of guitar is it?

Beau: It’s a Fender Telecaster.

John: Okay. Yeah.

Beau: Yeah. Vintage white.

John: There you go. That’s awesome, man, which leads in perfectly into music. How did you get started with this? Was it playing the recorder in fourth grade, type of thing, like me, or something different?

Beau: Yeah, I’ve been playing music almost my whole life. My mom was a musician, and my parents felt strongly that us kids, me and my two older sisters, should start learning piano at an early age. I started piano lessons at five, and always loved singing before then and after then. In school, started playing the trumpet and recorder as well, not in that order.

John: Right. That’s awesome. The trumpet was mainly the instrument and then piano at home, I guess?

Beau: Exactly. Yep. Then took piano lessons for about five years. I always wanted to play guitar, though, even since I was a toddler, watching MTV, all the grunge bands and music videos. I remember getting picked up from school one day, and it was the day of my piano lesson. My mom said, “You’re going to guitar lessons now. Piano lessons are no more.” I was ecstatic.

John: You’re the coolest mom ever. This is great. I grew up playing piano as well, and I remember, we moved, because my dad was in the Air Force. When we moved overseas, I was playing the theme song for Cheers and the Pink Panther and songs like that in elementary school. Then I moved, and the new teacher wanted to do like classical. That’s when I stopped playing the piano because I’m like, these aren’t fun. Looking back, I probably should have stayed with it. I picked it up since, because now there’s the internet, and you can just Google songs and get the music and pay for it. That’s awesome, switched over to guitar and then ever since then, it’s been just super fun, I’d imagine.

Beau: Yeah. Kind of self-taught a lot of other instruments after playing guitar for several years, but that’s still my favorite and true musical love.

John: Yeah. That’s awesome. Do you have some favorite memories from performing, whether it’s piano or even trumpet or guitar?

Beau: Yeah, I have a lot of great memories, mostly on guitar, I think.

John: Sure. I would imagine.

Beau: I remember I had a high school band called For Love of Ivy, also based in Denver. We got to play a couple of really awesome shows, and those are probably to my better musical memories, to date.

John: Very cool.

Beau: We got to play 93.3’s big gig one year.

John: Oh, yeah. Huge.

Beau: When I was 16 or 17.

John: Nice.

Beau: It was the year Paramore and The Offspring were the headliners, so that was pretty awesome. The other that comes to mind is the first time I ever played a sold-out concert also with that same band as an opener for another local band from Fort Collins called Tickle Me Pink. That was pretty amazing. That’s what I wrote my college essays about was that show.

John: Denver’s got a lot of, or Colorado, I guess, has a lot of really great music, just bands that a lot of people have heard of, coming out of here, and a lot of people with music on the radio and Spotify and everything now. I guess it’s not just the radio. That’s got to be a cool feeling too, is just, you’re driving along and then your song comes on. You’re like, that’s cool. A radio station you listen to as a kid.

Beau: Yeah, yeah, definitely, very true. It’s always a dream. That is pretty amazing.

John: Yeah. That’s the goal. It’s like, alright, that’s pretty cool. That’s awesome. You’ve gotten to work with other artists as well, beyond Pandas and People, which is the current band for everyone to look up. You’ve gotten to do some other projects as well.

Beau: I have, yeah. I was actually a founding member of the band, Air Dubai, as well, as their first synth player, a good chance to get back into keyboard and synth, and ended up having to leave that band when I did go off to school. Then I previously lived in Wisconsin for several years and played in a number of groups around there, and played in the Midwest. I’ve always been a big solo performer, too.

John: That’s cool, man. It’s great. With guitar, there’s a lot of opportunities there for that. That’s awesome, man. Do you feel, at all, music gives you a skill that you bring to work?

Beau: I do. Yeah. I think it helps me connect with people. Well, I guess, being able to interact with the crowd is something I enjoy, and I feel like that translates over into working with my colleagues, as well as customers, at my job. I think that’s a huge part of it. I also think my creative thinking pairs well with more of my technical work and being able to approach solutions creatively, troubleshooting problems and trying to come up with maybe different ways to solve different issues or goals.

John: Yeah, because most people think that, like for me, accounting, and for you, IT; oh, it’s very left-brained, very logical. It’s like, no, no, I have a whole brain. I actually have some creative stuff, too. It’s kind of fun to get the whole brain working and give the one side a little bit of a break every once in a while and bounce over to the other. I totally can see that. Is music something that comes up at work? Have you talked about it with colleagues before?

Beau: I have. Yes. I talk about all of my upcoming gigs. Especially on Mondays, like, oh, what did you do this weekend? Tell them about a show I played.

John: Most people are like, what? Hold on. I thought you were going to say nothing. That’s cool.

Beau: Absolutely. Yeah, it’s been a fun way to connect with other folks I work with, over music, and then anytime I end up bringing up my band, people tend to come to me with music that they like, I really enjoy that, or wanting to talk music, talk shop. I love doing that, hearing about new bands, telling them what I like.

John: That’s awesome because it’s just relating to them on a human level. It’s super cool to hear that they’re coming to you with, here’s music I like. Or what do you think about this band? Or, oh, you performed with the Offspring. What’s that all about? You’re getting to light up because you get to tell stories about it, but they are too because it’s something that they want to know about. You’ll get to the work later. It’s just, let’s create a human connection here.

Beau: I agree. Absolutely.

John: Was there ever a part of you that thought, hey, maybe I shouldn’t tell people I’ve got other interests? Because sometimes our demons in our heads tell us big time lies, basically.

Beau: Yeah, yeah. That’s true. I think so, actually, mostly trying to remain humble, I don’t know, especially, if it’s someone I don’t know as well, might just try not to mention it. I think the more selfish side of me loves to talk about it.

John: Sure. Let’s talk about music.

Beau: Always looking for an opening to casually bring that up.

John: It’s just great. It’s funny, too, because I remember when I was working corporate, and all of a sudden, it’s like, well, let me tell you who my favorite comedian is. I’m like, well, I know it’s not me, so just keep going, whatever. It’s fine because I probably like him, too. It’s all good. It’s cool that people want to connect with you like that, which is just really awesome. I guess, how much do you feel it’s on an organization to create that space to encourage people to share these outside-of-work interests? Or how much is it on the individual to just maybe start small or find that opening, like you were saying, to just, oh, you have a radio on? Well, let me talk about music.

Beau: That’s a great question. I think there’s a little bit of both. I do think it’d be great for organizations to make a space for it, at the very least, make sure people know that’s okay to include in your daily conversation. We’re not robots. We do want to connect. I do think it makes it easier to work with others too, if you do connect with them on a personal level and understand more about what they’re like, outside of the office. I guess, short answer, I would love for companies to make space for that, encourage that, and then also think individuals should bring it up when they can and want to.

John: Yeah, provided everyone’s getting their work done, then fair game. Of course, we’re not talking about just disregard work all together. Of course, it’s get your work done.

Beau: Agreed. Yeah.

John: Just for the people that are listening that are like, wait a minute; it’s like, no, no, no, neither of us are saying that.

Beau: It’s a good balance.

John: Yeah, exactly. Like you said, we’re not robots and work gets done, and teams, more times than none, or you’re relating to someone in another department or a customer or client. That only helps to have that human connection.

Beau: I agree. I agree.

John: Totally. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone that’s listening that maybe feels like, I’ve got an “and” but no one cares because it has nothing to do with my job?

Beau: Oh, yeah. Well, maybe pretty generic, but I’d say put yourself out there, and you might be surprised someone else might share a similar “and” or at least want to hear about your “and” and talk to you about it. I think it doesn’t hurt to at least give it a try.

John: Right. Worst case scenario, everyone goes, okay, and then puts their head back down and starts working. All right. Worst case scenario is not you’re going to get fired, provided your “and” is legal and not taboo. It’s like, all right, maybe don’t lead with that one.

Beau: Yeah, that’s a good point.

John: Yeah. Just talking about human things with humans, it’s so weird to me that that’s not our default mode at work. For some reason, when we go into a work setting, we turn into something that we’re not, or a fraction of who we are, so weird.

Beau: Yeah, it’s weird to have to kind of fake it or compartmentalize yourself a little bit. Sometimes I do feel like there are two different sides of me, and trying to continue to blend them and give the whole picture of who I am and what I like and what I do.

John: Yeah. It’s not like you’re bringing your guitar to work and playing. Maybe there’s a time for that, happy hour or something, but not on a Tuesday at noon when everyone’s in the middle of work. It’s still cool to talk about it, and that’s fair. It’s awesome to hear that people gravitate towards that, the shows that you have. I’m excited, next week, to catch you guys here in Denver as well. That’s going to be a really fun show also. I feel like it’s only fair though, before we wrap this up, that I turn the tables because I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning. We make this the Beau Osland podcast. Thanks for having me on. I’m all yours. Whatever you’ve got, fire away.

Beau: Sounds good. How about a DC or Marvel?

John: I am the worst at this. Whatever one Spider Man is, is going to be my answer. Although I love all of them because I think Iron Man’s on the other side, and Iron Man’s super awesome. Batman’s always cool. I like the ones that are low key, kind of the least suspecting type of people that are out there kicking butt and taking names. Those are my favorites. Yeah, I’m the worst. Sorry, man.

Beau: No, no, no problem.

John: All of them. Does that count?

Beau: That counts. You can have them all. Awesome. How about chocolate or vanilla?

John: I’m going to go chocolate on that only because there’s more things that are chocolate. A vanilla candy bar would be weird to me. Milkshakes, I can go either way, but, yeah, probably chocolate, more universal.

Beau: Yeah, yeah. Great answer. I agree with you on that one. Let’s see. Do you have a favorite band or artist at the moment?

John: Yeah. Well, besides Pandas and People, growing up, it was Metallica definitely. That was my first concert.

Beau: Sweet.

John: Blink-182’s always good and for just like, you can just throw something on, out of there. Killers are amazing, especially live. Man, they’re amazing.

Beau: I’ve always wanted to see them live. Yeah.

John: They put on a show, man. There’s a lot of confetti and stuff and lights and video board. It’s an experience, that’s for sure. That was a bunch of answers, but more of that alternative upbeat kind of stuff that you can just put on and be in a good mood type of thing, without having to think. It’s not that everything’s musically high. It’s more of just, it’s just easy to digest, I guess.

Beau: Yeah. Yeah.

John: All right, you’ve got one more?

Beau: Yeah, let’s do one more. How about favorite comedian?

John: Oh, wow. That’s a tough one. Brian Regan is probably going to be, probably my favorite. Bill Burr and Dave Chappelle are amazing, too. Even guys that I’m friends with like Tommy Johnagin and Ryan Hamilton and Nate Bargatze, a lot of guys when I lived in New York that we were all around each other.

Beau: Sure.

John: Probably Brian Regan. He’s so good. So good. Thank you so much for taking time to be a part of What’s Your “And”? This has been really, really awesome.

Beau: Yeah. Thanks, John. Really fun to be here.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Beau onstage, or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. Don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message

Welcome to Episode 489 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture, and I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and listening to it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Nikki Winston. She’s a senior finance controller at Microsoft and the founder of the Winston CPA Exam Virtual Classroom and the host of Werkin’ Mommas Podcast, and now she’s with me here today. Nikki, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Nikki: Hey, John, thanks so much. Glad to be with you today.

John: This is going to be a blast. I have 17 rapid-fire questions though, get to know Nikki right out of the gate here. You ready?

Nikki: I’m ready. Let’s go.

John: Here we go. I’ll start you out, here we go, Star Wars or Star Trek?

Nikki: Unpopular response but I don’t know enough about either of those franchises.

John: Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. You’re straight up. That’s totally honest. How about any franchise? Is there a franchise that would be more?

Nikki: Let’s see, Ozark.

John: Oh, okay. Yeah, sure.

Nikki: Meet the Parents, Meet the Fockers.

John: Okay. Right. There you go.

Nikki: Yeah, that franchise.

John: Those are all good.

Nikki: Any sitcoms, Golden Girls, Martin, I know them all.

John: Okay. If you throw Golden Girls and Martin at the same time, that’s amazing. Those are both hilarious shows for very different reasons. That’s awesome.

Nikki: Yeah.

John: That’s so good. So good.

Nikki: I don’t know a thing about baby Yoda.

John: That’s all the new stuff. Yeah, totally. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Nikki: Depends on the day.

John: Oh, really? Okay.

Nikki: When I’m, and this might be a bit of a biased answer, but when I’m at work during my day job, I’m on a PC; and when I’m running my business and working on CPA exam coaching stuff, I’m on my MacBook.

John: That makes sense. Okay, all right. You’ve got both. That’s some skills. I can barely do a PC, so, good for you. That’s impressive.

Nikki: It’s just funky, though, because I wish the Excel keyboard shortcuts would be the same on both. Because I’m a keyboard user and not a mouse user, so it’s a little frustrating with my Mac when I try to do that.

John: Yeah, that makes sense. How about favorite ice cream flavor? Because I love ice cream.

Nikki: Cookies and cream, all day, every day.

John: There you go.

Nikki: It has to be Oreos, not just the regular cookies. They’re not paying us for this, John, but it has to be the Oreos.

John: Yeah, exactly.

Nikki: No Oreo sponsorship, but it’s better with the Oreos.

John: Maybe now we will, maybe now. How about a favorite Disney character?

Nikki: For me, it has to be Goofy. Goofy is who he is, no matter what, no matter what the situation is.

John: I love it. That’s mine too. Yeah, Goofy. Awesome. How about, since you have accounting background, balance sheet or income statement?

Nikki: The nerd in me, that is so hard. I’m tempted to say income statement because if something’s wrong on the income statement, it’s going to flow through to the balance sheet, and you have to find it.

John: Okay.

Nikki: But I like looking at balance sheet recs. I like reviewing recs, so I’ll say the balance sheet.

John: Okay, okay. All right. There you go. How about are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Nikki: Night owl all day long.

John: Okay. All right.

Nikki: 10pm to 2am are golden hours for me. That’s when I feel the most productive actually.

John: Wow, that’s impressive. How about a favorite number?

Nikki: Four.

John: Four. Is there a reason?

Nikki: Well, there are four people in my house, myself, my husband, my son, my daughter, but my son is my absolute love bug. He’s the fourth. He’s Thomas the Fourth.

John: Oh, okay.

Nikki: So four is my favorite number.

John: That makes sense. Okay. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Nikki: The millennial in me, I need a real book. I can keep all the readers. I’m kind of that seasoned millennial. I don’t get with all the tech, but when it comes to a book, I need to feel it and hold it and have it in my hand and put a bookmark in it.

John: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. There you go. How about when it comes to puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or a jigsaw puzzle?

Nikki: Sudoku.

John: Sudoku. Okay. That’s how I do my taxes. That’s perfect.

Nikki: I love brain games. Oh, gosh, John. Don’t say that.

John: You’re like, no, no, no.

Nikki: We didn’t hear that part. I’m covering my ears. I didn’t hear that part.

John: Statutes of limitations has passed. We’re good. That’s awesome. That’s hilarious. How about favorite adult beverage?

Nikki: Hurricane.

John: Hurricane. Oh, yeah. Nice. Yeah, they’re also fun to say. It’s fun to say. It’s like, there you go.

Nikki: Since we’re talking about statutes of limitations, I can actually buy alcohol now, but the first time I had a hurricane, I was 19. I was in college. I was like, this is the best thing ever, and it became my thing. When I had my first trip to New Orleans, which I feel like has the OG hurricanes, I was like, oh, yeah, this is my thing.

John: Pat O’Brien’s. There you go. Absolutely.

Nikki: That’s it. I have my souvenir glass, my souvenir glass.

John: There you go. How about, this is a tough one, brownie or ice cream?

Nikki: Ice cream.

John: Ice cream. There you go.

Nikki: Hands down. Chocolate sometimes, ice cream always.

John: Yeah, that’s a good point. How about a favorite color?

Nikki: Coral.

John: Oh, nice.

Nikki: Yep. Not to be confused with orange.

John: Oh, no, no, no, no, not even close. Not even close. How about a least favorite color?

Nikki: Yellow.

John: Yellow. Okay. All right. Yeah, a little too bright.

Nikki: Which is crazy because I love the sunshine. The solar plexus chakra is my thing, but I think yellow is just, it’s not as neutral as other colors. You can mute a red. You can mute blue. When you mute a yellow, it’s almost not there.

John: Right. That’s a good point. Never even thought about it like that. All right. All right. We’ve got three more. Favorite actor or actress?

Nikki: Meryl Streep.

John: Oh, yeah. Very popular answer. She’s amazing. She’s so good, so good.

Nikki: Miranda Priestly is the character that came to mind.

John: Yep, there you go.

Nikki: When I said that.

John: There you go. How about, are you more heels or flats?

Nikki: Heels.

John: Heels. Okay.

Nikki: Me and flats are like oil and water, unless it’s some Air Max, Air Max 95s. If it’s regular ballet flats, no. Heels all day. Three and a half inches are better.

John: Nice. Okay. Okay. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Nikki: Favorite thing I have is my water pitcher because I can slice my lemons, and I can put my mint leaves in the diffuser thing. I can refill the water over and over. That’s like my go-to drink every day is lemon mint water, so being able to conveniently make it, that’s one of my favorite little gadgets that I bought.

John: That sounds fantastic. That’s so great. Let’s talk cleaning. How did this start? Was it from when you were a kid, were you always into this, or was it something that you got into later?

Nikki: It definitely started as a kid. Growing up, my daddy is, I won’t say, was, he is very meticulous. If there was a plate and a fork in the sink, the expectation was you make dishwater, and you clean them.

John: Even just one plate, one fork.

Nikki: Even just one plate, one fork. You make dishwater, you clean it, and then you wipe off the counters around it in case there’s something there. It was more proactive cleaning, but me, I was the youngest. I was the youngest girl. My cousin lived with us, too, but I was the only girl. My job on the weekends was the refrigerator. I had to clean it out, and I had to keep it organized. I looked at that like all these shelves and all these shapes. I can really get creative in here. It started like that. I would make my dishwater, and I would wipe down all of the shelves, the door, the handles, everything on the refrigerator. It was sparkling by the time I was done, and it looked good. It stuck with me. I love the look of clean. I remember trying to line up my doll babies and make sure they were neat, and their clothes were put away in the dollhouse, and organizing my school folders. When I was in school, especially college, my highlight was going to the store, getting the dividers for all the different subjects and having it organized. Cleaning and organizing has been my thing forever.

John: That’s impressive. No wonder you went into accounting. You’ve been training for this all your life.

Nikki: You know, we’re often referred to as the cleanup people. I will say that much.

John: That is true. That is true. Exactly. Hence, the Ozarks reference earlier. It’s a little bit of cleaning going on there, too. Oh, wait, John, no, no.

Nikki: Yes, that Marty Bird is something else.

John: Right. Right. You’re so true because when I was in high school and a little bit of college, when I was home, I would work at the grocery store in my small town. When you see, in a grocery store, they call it facing the shelves where everything’s pulled forward, and it just looks clean, and the dairy. When I’m in there, I just see it. It’s like, man, that looks good. No one else notices. Then somebody just comes in and pushes everything or whatever. It’s like, no, no. Even now, when I pull something out, I pull the back one up, so that it just keeps that clean front to it. It definitely looks good.

Nikki: A couple of my college jobs will tell you a lot about me. I worked for Express and Victoria’s Secret, number one because I get like half off on all the stuff. I worked as the stock person, which tells you how much I like to be organized, straightened all the shelves, and I worked there after the store closed, so that tells you about my night owl. I’m also an introvert because I didn’t have to interact with the customers. My job was to make that store look good, clean and spotless for the next day. I loved that job. That was one of my favorite things to do.

John: Yeah. Absolutely. No one’s interrupting you. You don’t have to go to the register and check people out. I’m just, bam, just put on the blinders, and let’s get this done. That’s so great. I’ve got to feel this skill, we’ve been joking about it, but translates to work, I would have to imagine, in some way.

Nikki: Yeah. Professionally, when I share that I love to clean, the typical response is like, oh, so do you want to come and clean my house? It turns into things like that. I said, okay, my passion is monetizable, if that’s a word. It kind of reminds me of how important it is to just really do what you love. I don’t know a lot of people that like to clean and grocery shop and organize and do all of those things.

Part of how the Werkin’ Mommas came about, because this is usually the other part of the conversation, is I love to clean and I love to organize. I created The Werkin’ Mommas first as a brand, with the goal of making life easier for busy moms. We’ll come clean your house and run your errands and do your grocery shopping and all the things that moms do not like to do, that they’d rather have somebody else do. That was the original thought, but we’re accountants. We wear a gazillion hats, so The Werkin’ Mommas has been simmering in the back, if you will. It’s always a thought for me. I need to get this going because there are so many moms who are tired of cleaning up after these kids and these partners. Everything that goes on has to go through a mom almost.

John: Pretty much.

Nikki: It was like, what can I do to make life easier for busy moms? These thoughts come to me when I’m cleaning because I’m doing it by myself. It’s like me time. If you say, hey, I’m about to go clean; nobody’s going to volunteer and say, oh, I’m going to join you. It’s a me time, and I love the end goal. I love how it looks, how it smells, how it just… It feels like you can breathe easier in a clean house. People are always like, do you want to come clean my house? Or I think The Werkin’ Mommas is a great idea. You should do that right now. Then it spurs into other things. A lot of people don’t like it, but I love it.

John: It’s great. Even the organization mindset that you have, translates to your career, as well, because it’s hard to be an accountant and disorderly.

Nikki: Right. Exactly.

John: That mindset and that skill that’s just innate in you comes through.

Nikki: Yeah. It’s about being proactive, too because, like I said, the way my daddy handled it is just make a sink full of water and clean those dishes and clean anything else that might be dirty. Even in business, I tell business owners all the time, don’t wait until your books are a mess to come and talk to me or one of my…

John: That’s a good point.

Nikki: CPA friends because now, you’re going to pay a premium for all this extra work we have to do. If you had retained us way back when your business became an idea, then we could have avoided all of this, so, start being proactive.

John: Just do a monthly reconciliation

Nikki: Exactly.

John: There you go. Instead of, hey, here’s a box of receipts, and you go nuts. It’s like, that’s going to cost you. That one’s going to cost you. That’s for sure.

Nikki: Exactly.

John: Have you come across other super cleaners in your career, or people that are maybe almost as passionate?

Nikki: I have not. A funny thing that I need to get over is I have never hired a professional cleaning company to clean my house because I feel like I’m going to have to go behind them and do something. You’re not really doing a deep clean like I would do it, so I feel like I would have to go back and do it. Now, I’m putting myself in the working mama situation like, I want somebody to come and clean my house just because I’d rather do something else.

John: Absolutely. It is funny because on the handful of times that I’ve had someone to clean, occasionally, there’s a cleaning that you do before the cleaner comes. You’ve got to straighten up. You’ve got to get things off the floor. I’m like, wait, why don’t I just finish, and then I can just not have them come.

Nikki: Right. Because for me, the pre-clean becomes a deep clean. Once I put my earbuds on and my playlist, and everybody’s out the way; it’s like, okay, rubber gloves, broom, mop, and I go the work.

John: There you go. Yeah, you’re bringing it. That’s awesome. That’s so good. How much do you feel it’s on an organization to create space for people to share these hobbies and these “ands” that they have? Or how much is it on the individual to just maybe just start that conversation amongst their peers?

Nikki: It’s crucial for the companies to create a space where employees feel like they have this space to step away from their desk job, if you will, and show more about who they are. I was having a conversation with somebody a few weeks ago, and we were just talking about conversations, how opportunities come about. One of the things we were saying is like, a lot of deals, a lot of promotions, a lot of conversations happen on the golf course, over dinner, all these other places outside of work, so it’s important, if you love to craft or you love to clean or you are really great guitarist outside of work, to share those passions. You never know if the VP or somebody else is passionate about guitaring, or y’all went to the same alma mater, anything. I think it’s crucial for companies to make that space available for employees. Also, that speaks a lot to inclusion, as we talk about the employee side, because if an employee doesn’t feel like that space is there, they’re going to be reluctant to share that, oh, they might downplay what I’m doing, or they might think that playing the guitar is not cool or something like that. You never know that somebody might say, I love to volunteer, and volunteering is a great way to network within a company outside of desk work, if you will.

John: Absolutely.

Nikki: I think it brings nothing but opportunity on both sides for companies to make that space available and for employees to take advantage of it.

John: I agree totally because when you’re looking to get promoted, or you’re looking to get staffed on a project, or you’re looking for something, like what’s your differentiator? It’s not, oh, well, I have this college degree. Well, so does everyone else. Oh, I have these letters after my name. Well, so does everyone else. The human side to you is really, whether they also like to play guitar, or they just know about it. Either way, it’s cool, and it’s a way for you to stand out and be like, well, this is who I am. The more that people get to know you, the more they’re going to like you. You like you, so why wouldn’t someone else like you?

Nikki: Exactly. In most cases, those skills that you’ve refined or developed in your hobby are transferable. If you like to play a guitar, that requires skill. If you like to do jigsaw puzzles, there is strategy in a different part of your brain that is working, as far as making the best move. It’s really important to understand that aspect of it as well, that it can bring value to the workplace just by doing something that you love.

John: Always, always, and at the very minimum, it humanizes you, but oftentimes, it’s a skill, like you said. If something’s out of order or somebody comes in with some gnarly looking project that requires a lot of organization, it’s me or Nikki. Nikki should get that, hands down. If you have some other kind of project that maybe I have outside skills that are a little bit different then that. We often only look at the book skills that people have as opposed to the human skills that are outside of work, and there’s more expertise that we have than our degrees and certifications.

Nikki: Yeah. I always say that humanize people first and then worry about the workplace and everything else. I’ve been watching a lot of TV lately. I’ve been finding a lot of good shows and series to watch. I’ve been hearing these interviews where people keep saying, what does the world need more of? I feel like we need more humanizing of actual people. I think that will solve a lot of our problems, but what do I know? I’m not the President.

John: We’ve got three more years and then you will be. We’re starting today, the launch of the Nikki Winston campaign. I just did it.

Nikki: Yes, more humanization, that’s it.

John: Amen. I totally agree. It’s so crazy to me that we’re born humans, but we stop acting human at some point. We hide it. Then when people are like, no, no, bring it out, you’re like, no. Or I forget what it is. I forget how to human. You’re like, what? How’s that possible? It’s just more human. I love it. That’s so good. No one can campaign against you. Who’s going to be like, no, no, less human. It’s like, what?

Nikki: That’s a good point. You might be a campaign manager.

John: You can’t be against this.

Nikki: Right. You cannot be against better treatment for people.

John: Right. Totally. That’s so good. So good. Well, I feel like, before we wrap this up, do you have any words of encouragement to people listening, of maybe they have an “and” or maybe they love to clean, but no one is going to care because it has nothing to do with my job or there isn’t a charge code for it or whatever excuses?

Nikki: My thing is everybody on this earth has a birthright to be happy. If there is something that you do or an instrument that you play, something that you create, whatever it is that makes your heart sing, do more of that and then tell us about it. Because contrary to what you might be thinking in your own mind, we really want to see your dopeness, so let us see.

John: Yeah, there you go. That’s the tagline. Be more human. Show us your dopeness.

Nikki: Yes. Yes.

John: There it is. I love that though. That’s so awesome. We all have the right to be happy and to shine. Let it out.

Nikki: Absolutely.

John: Do that. I love that so much. Well, since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning of the podcast, I feel like it’s only fair that we turn the tables. You already have your Werkin’ Mommas podcast, but I’m not working or a mama, so I’m not sure what kind of podcast this is going to be, but you’re the host now. I’m all yours.

Nikki: One quick little shameless plug I will say is, on The Werkin’ Mommas podcast, I have series. I have a series for career advice. I have a series for entrepreneurs. We talk about starting LLCs. If the LLC is right for you, how to run your business, how to generate cash flow when you don’t have any clients, things like that.

John: There you go.

Nikki: I, of course, have my episode where I was cleaning up my kitchen while I was recording.

John: That’s great. Nice.

Nikki: For the moms. Because sometimes we need to vent, and we want to get multiple things done, but I realized that everybody is not a mama, so I still want to share the things I want to share about business, careers, managing your money, building your credit, stuff like that.

John: It’s awesome that it applies to so many people. Absolutely. That’s so great. That’s so great. I’m all ready. I’m buckled in for your questions.

Nikki: Let’s jump into some questions, this one, which I think is going to be very telling.

John: Oh, boy.

Nikki: iPhone or Android.

John: I’m Android all day. Yeah. I’m not even cool enough to go into an Apple store. They stop me at the door. They’re like, sir, you’re not allowed in. I’m not even allowed to go in. I feel Amish when I go in there. What does this do? What? You know what, I’m going to stand outside and wait for all the cool kids to come back out.

Nikki: You know what,there’s all these memes on social media where they make it seem like — there’s the whole iPhone versus Android war, and it’s always making iPhone look super bougie and Android look super, like living in the trailer park like Ozark kind of thing. I think that’s just so funny. I won’t judge. I switched from an Android so fast, years ago, that I don’t know enough about it to even try to knock it, but the commercials I see definitely raise my eyebrows. Oh, wow. Okay, Android, that’s pretty dope. Yeah, I won’t knock until I try it.

John: It’s probably the reason why I still use a PC because it was the first one and then you just stay with it and then we’re all good. I’m cool either way. It is funny, though, because I do find that the people that care the most are iPhone users. They’re the ones that, ooh. I’ve never heard an Android person go, whoa, you’re iPhone? I’ve never heard that. I’ve only heard it the other way around. I’ve never heard an Android person judge an iPhone —

Nikki: You have a point, John. You have a very valid point.

John: I’m just saying, if I’m going to be your Vice President —

Nikki: iPhone users can’t argue.

John: As your Vice President, I need to make sure that we…

Nikki: Cannot argue with that at all.

John: There you go.

Nikki: Okay. Do you call it pop or soda?

John: Oh, it’s soda because I’m a grown adult. Kids say pop.

Nikki: Disruptive millennials say pop, and Midwesterners say pop. That’s what I was going to say. It’s a Ohio thing.

John: You’re down in the south too, it’s just Coke.

Nikki: Yeah.

John: When I was a kid, I was in the south, and I was just like, what kind of soda do you have? They’re like, oh, well, we have Pepsi Coke. We have Sprite Coke. I’m like, what? Pepsi Coke? You can’t have Pepsi Coke. What? Coke is just the generic word for all of the carbonated beverage, I guess.

Nikki: Yeah, pretty much. I’m a Cincinnati girl, so I’m a Pepsi girl in a Coca Cola world. I actually don’t even drink pop anymore. My mom told me when I was a teenager, if I didn’t stop drinking pop, the acid was going to cause me to have bumps all over my face, so I stopped drinking it. I might have a fruit punch or a Hi-C orange a couple of times a year, but it’s not my go-to drink.

John: Fruit punch all day. I will order fruit punch and then they’ll be like, excuse me? I’m like, yeah, fruit punch, you heard me.

Nikki: That’s when they give you the double take. You are not seven years old, ma’am.

John: Is your kid here with you? Nope. It’s for me. Large.

Nikki: Nope, it’s for me, and get ready for the refill.

John: There you go. All right, you’ve got one more?

Nikki: MJ or LeBron James?

John: Oh, yeah. I’m going to go Jordan, only because I’m a little older, so he’s the OG. LeBron is good, but Jordan was just, the dunks and the highlight reels. LeBron’s great, but the highlight reels are Jordan all day.

Nikki: Yeah. I love LeBron because he’s from my home state. It’s always the Ohio versus everybody thing. Love what he’s done for the game. Love what he’s done for people in general, but my childhood growing up was MJ is it. I think we saw that when they were on recently, and they were doing the top 75 players. Who was the last one to come out, and who got the craziest applause? No other player standing out there can be mad about that because that is Michael Jordan, and then put a period after that. He’s always my top guy. Always. Always.

John: Absolutely. Whew, so I redeemed myself.

Nikki: Yes. Yes.

John: Oh, my goodness. All right. That’s awesome.

Nikki: As long as you said MJ, we’re good.

John: Okay. All right. Cool. Cool, but thank you so much, Nikki, for taking time to be a part of What’s Your “And”? This has been so much fun.

Nikki: Of course. Likewise. I have thoroughly enjoyed this, John. Thanks so much.

John: Very cool, and everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of outside-of-work Nikki or maybe connect with her on social media or check out Werkin’ Mommas podcast, go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to episode 487 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that really differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. Both versions go into the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, David Almonte. He’s a financial reporting and analysis senior manager at Amica Insurance out of Providence, Rhode Island, and now, he’s with me here today. David, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

David: John, thank you so much for having me.

John: Yeah, this is going to be a blast, man. This is going to be so much fun. I have my rapid-fire questions, get to know David out of the gate. You buckled in and ready to roll?

David: Buckled in, ready to rock.

John: Okay, all right. There we go. There we go. Here’s an easy one. Cats or dogs?

David: Dogs. Allergic to cats. I’ve got nothing against cats.

John: Oh, no, no, everything about against cats. I’m kidding. I’m teasing. Dogs. Me, too, man, all the way. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or maybe jigsaw puzzles?

David: Let’s go with jigsaw puzzles.

John: Okay. All right. The picture. There you go.

David: Yeah, and I got a little kid. They like those things, too.

John: Oh, yeah. That’s perfect. Yeah, it’s like six pieces. You’re like, I am amazing.

David: Pretty much.

John: That’s awesome. How about a favorite color?

David: I’m going to go with baby blue, like Tar Heel blue.

John: Oh, okay. All right. Is it a Tar Heel connection or…

David: I grew up a big Tar Heel fan, Michael Jordan. Lived down in North Carolina for five years and down there you have to decide. It’s Tar Heels or the Blue Devils. That could decide your career.

John: That really could. It actually could. Who your friends are, what birthday parties you’re invited to, as a kid, all that.

David: Exactly.

John: That’s awesome. How about a least favorite color?

David: Go with, say, brown.

John: Even sounds not great. It’s just brown. That’s weird. How about a favorite adult beverage?

David: Espresso martinis.

John: Oh, okay. I just heard about this recently.

David: They’re amazing. Favorite drink by far. Father’s Day a couple of years ago, I actually had my wife get me a really nice espresso machine, so I can start making them at the house.

John: Okay, okay. That’s some next level, man. That might be your “and”. That’s impressive.

David: That is, yeah. Future bartender.

John: There you go. How about a favorite actor or actress?

David: Oh, I like Ben Affleck.

John: Oh, okay.

David: Yeah, The Accountant.

John: Right. Absolutely. Or Goodwill Hunting, all that stuff. Yeah.

David: Yeah, and he’s a New Englander.

John: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I like it. Okay. How about, are you more of a shower or a bath?

David: Shower for sure.

John: Shower.

David: Yeah, probably just fall asleep if I take a bath.

John: Right. Which maybe is the idea, I don’t know. I don’t like to relax that much.

David: I like to get in and get out. Just do what you got to do in there.

John: Exactly. Right.

David: Get out of there and get on with your day.

John: I wouldn’t do it if I didn’t have to.

David: Exactly.

John: That’s awesome. Me too, man. I’m the same. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

David: I’d go Star Wars, although never really got into either of them.

John: Okay.

David: I know, save the hate mail.

John: Right. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-book or real book?

David: I like the real book. I’ve got to underline stuff, fold the pages, go back to it. I haven’t figured out an efficient way to do that without the hard copy.

John: Yeah, we’re just used to it. It’s just easier, for sure. How about a favorite number?

David: Four.

John: Yeah? Is there a reason?

David: Brett Favre, big Brett Favre fan, growing up, so 4, 8, 23 are pretty much my favorite ones. Eight, no clue. Twenty-three, Michael Jordan.

John: Sure. Absolutely. No, that’s awesome. That’s totally cool. It’s usually sports-related. How about, are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

David: Early bird, for sure.

John: Yeah. Good for you.

David: Best thinking in the morning. At night, it’s just draining. Again, two little kids, so I’ve got nothing left at the end of the day.

John: Oh, that’s true. The tank is empty. There you go. Since you have the accounting background, balance sheet or income statement?

David: I’m going balance sheet. I know most people probably say income statement. I’m more of a stability guy. Especially working for a big insurance company, stability matters.

John: There you go. The risk-averseness comes out. I like it. An accountant at an insurance company, it’s like, I don’t know what more risk averse is out there. That’s it.

David: It’s definitely not the cash flow, I’ll tell you that.

John: Right. No, no, no, it’s definitely not. No one knows how to do that. That’s part of it. Thank goodness for computer programs, right?

David: Exactly.

John: How about, are you more of a PC or a Mac, on computers?

David: PC. I can’t figure out the whole Mac thing.

John: I’m not even cool enough to go into a Mac store, I don’t think.

David: I had one, couldn’t figure it out. I just put it in the basement.

John: That’s hilarious. That’s awesome. How about your first concert?

David: I’m trying to think about this. I think it was actually, I’m afraid to admit this, or maybe I shouldn’t be. It’s Taylor Swift.

John: Okay.

David: Yeah, she opened up for… It’s one of those like country packs that you get. Because Taylor Swift before she was Taylor Swift, she was amazing. Lady Antebellum was there, too, before they kind of blew up.

John: Right. That’s awesome, man. That’s very cool. Yeah, it’s so funny to look back and be like, wait a minute, they opened for… There was a band, Live. That was a really great band, and we saw them in college. No Doubt opened for Live. No one has heard of Live now, but everyone’s heard of No Doubt and Gwen Stefani.

David: Of course.

John: It’s funny just to catch them on the way up and then you can tell right away. You’re like, man, that person’s amazing.

David: 100%, and shout out to Taylor Swift. I know she listens to this.

John: Right. Oh, she’s always listening.

David: She has a house here in Newport, Rhode Island, so, fellow Rhode Islander.

John: Oh, there you go. Okay. Her and this breaking up with boyfriends, that’s why I’ve never had her on the show.

David: She just puts them into the songs, whatever works for you.

John: Exactly. We’ve got a couple more. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

David: Black raspberry all day long.

John: Oh, nice answer.

David: In a frappe or a cabinet or a shake or wherever you’re located, whatever you call it.

John: Right, yeah, whatever the thing is.

David: I know everyone says Friday. I’m going to go with Monday, starting the week off right. Monday can make or break your week, so I’ll go with Monday.

John: That is true, and if you have the right mindset, then makes the week. All right. Good. That’s a first. I’ve never had a Monday. Good for you, man. Good for you. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

David: Yeah, I’m going to go with the best thing my wife and I ever did. We have two incredibly smart, beautiful little girls who challenge us every day, multiple times a day, to be better versions of ourselves. I’ll count that as something that we have.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah, absolutely. That totally counts, man. I can’t even imagine.

David: I can’t say something that I own either because they’re in charge.

John: They are in charge. They also own my espresso machine.

David: They tell me.

John: All of this is theirs. That’s awesome, man. Let’s talk about just founding a nonprofit and going with that. It’s FountainHead Rhode Island?

David: It is, yeah.

John: Yeah, yeah. Just what is it and how did that get started?

David: Five years ago, I helped co-found a nonprofit, FoundtainHead Rhode Island, and our goal as an organization is to bring together and connect diverse like-minded individuals who really just want to make their local global communities a better place. We accomplish that two ways. We host educational panel events throughout the year that encompass informal networking. Bringing people together is really at the core of what we do. The second, we conduct live community spotlights via Facebook. We host a rising star industry community leader for one-on-one fireside chats, sort of like this, just learning more about them, figuring out ways that people can get involved, and then we bring everyone together. Used to be The Dorrance in Providence, Rhode Island before the pandemic and everything happened, but informal networking, huge, 250 people just coming together to try to build relationships, deep relationships, actual relationships, not sales-oriented. We helped co-found this five years ago and since then, we’ve grown into community of over 1100 people all over the country.

John: Oh, that’s fantastic, man. That’s awesome. Just trying to get, just, business people to connect on a human level and then we’ll talk about business later, maybe or maybe not. I just rather hang out with a bunch of cool, interesting people and then connect that way. I love that philosophy, man.

David: Yeah. It started probably back in 2016. We launched in 2017, but 2016, like most people, I have trouble sleeping. I couldn’t sleep. I roll over, and my wife’s like, what’s wrong? I’m like, there’s got to be more to life than this. She was like, what? Really? I was like, no, no. I go to work, and I come home. I wake up, and I do it again. I don’t want to do that. There’s got to be something more. I want to hang out with people. It’s fine if you go to work, nine to five, and that’s your thing. I want to hang out with people that want more. She was like, all right, go to sleep and then figure it out in the morning.

John: Exactly.

David: I called two buddies of mine, and they were like, alright, awesome, Dave, what do you want to do? I was like, let’s start these Jeffersonian dinners. Thomas Jefferson used to bring the smartest people he knew, the most eclectic people, to the White House, and they would have these dinners, talk about art, business, culture, whatever. We started that. We went out. We each brought someone to a restaurant, had some drinks, talked about whatever was going on in the world. The next time, everyone brought one more, so now like 12 people. After that, the restaurants were like, you can’t bring 30 or 40 people.

We got together, and we’re like, I think we’re onto something. There’s a lot of people that want to do what we’re doing, engage and have this kind of conversations with people that are changing the world in their own little way and, selfishly, to learn from them and be around people that see the world a different way, and energize yourself. I meet so many incredible people, and after you meet with them, you’re like, oh, man, I’m not doing enough. I have to go back, and I’ve got to step up my game. Doing that just every day. Building a community of 1100 people in five years is not something we set out to do. It just shows you that there are so many people that think the way that we do and want the same things out of life.

John: Yeah. That’s awesome, man. It’s just broadening that perspective and creating those connections that get you to think a little bit differently. I never really looked at it that way, or what have you. It’s not a, I need to change everyone’s mind. It’s more of, well, here’s how I see it. Having an adult conversation about something and then creating those connections on the human level as well, makes that a lot easier. You see them the next time, and it’s like, hey, what’s up? You have friends now, type of thing.

David: It’s easier when you’re involved in a lot of the complicated things, local, national level, whatever they may be. People that are doing the same thing understand that. It’s hard to talk to people that aren’t going through the same thing, so that helps as well.

John: That’s awesome, man. That’s really great. Is there, I guess, probably that first one, is there one of the gatherings that was pretty memorable, where you’re like, wow, this is a cool thing, or you met someone that was really interesting?

David: They’re all really cool, obviously.

John: Yeah. No, absolutely, but it’s like, which one’s your favorite daughter? Both of them.

David: Yeah, then you shout one out accidentally.

John: Yeah. Right.

David: The event we had in 2019 was really cool, to get 250 people together when all you want to do is selfishly hang out with smarter people. We recently did a fireside chat with Hubert Joly who’s the former CEO of Best Buy. That was just really cool. Thinking back, in 2016, laying in bed, thinking I want more out of life; and five years later, you’re doing these cool things. It’s really neat.

John: That’s awesome, man. I love it. That’s so cool. Do you feel like, being a co-founder of this and running it, does it give you a skill set that you bring to work?

David: Oh, for sure. I think many of us know how easy it is to start a nonprofit, run it while not being paid, on top of a full-time job, super, super easy. When you start a nonprofit, you don’t realize how much work it is, honestly. You do everything, creating the name, the logo, the website, invoicing, signing acknowledgement letters, figuring out you need to sign acknowledgement letter, sponsors, you know how easy it is to ask people for money, planning, running events. Getting outside your comfort zone is a big thing for me that we’ll probably touch on at some point in this conversation, but having conversations, leading discussions with local, national powerhouses, just being able to have those conversations, lead them, plan them, grow your network, obviously, helps you at work. Public speaking, learning to be comfortable being uncomfortable is a favorite tagline of mine. Running a team of unpaid volunteers. How do you get people to all row in the same direction when none of us are getting paid? It’s unbelievably difficult.

John: Holy cow, man. Yeah. There’s so much here. At no point in business school did anyone tell you, hey, why don’t you go co-found a nonprofit and then it’ll make you better at your career? But it clearly does.

David: No, it’s one of those things, and maybe this is a bad equation, but it’s like when you have kids, you don’t have kids to get richer. You don’t do it selfishly. It’s like, no, I want to give back and bring people into this world to leave a legacy or whatever it may be for you, but it costs massive amounts of money and time. I’ve got gray hair now. I don’t know if I had that before the kids or after the kids. You lose a lot when you have kids, but obviously, you gain so much more.

John: Yeah, you put in a little and then you get back so much more, but that being comfortable with being uncomfortable phrase is so important. We’ve all been uncomfortable for the last two years, and some people adjust better than others. Even at work, before the pandemic, it was still that, and so you’re getting that skill, which is great. Because at some point, things are going to get uncomfortable and I need to be ready.

David: Right, 100%.

John: Yeah, totally. Is this something that comes up at work? I’m sure that you talk about FountainHead Rhode Island at work.

David: Yeah. Everyone now knows, jokingly, everyone knows about FountainHead at work now. It just comes up organically over time. Last year, I was the chair of our E-Committee, which is our fun committee for our Accounting Department. It basically puts on all the fun stuff for 120-person department. We had our kickoff educational panel event going on for FountainHead. We’re talking about mental health and self-care, and we’re smack in the middle of the pandemic. Just, obviously, a great topic before the pandemic, but really, a lot more people became comfortable having that conversation because of the pandemic. It’s a perfect opportunity for me to bring the two worlds together. We had the incredible Katie McDonald of b.nourished, she’s just an incredible human being, who was speaking on a panel that we were having. I went to the comptroller at the time and asked him. I brought up this idea. I’m always the one pushing the envelope or trying to be different or smashing the box, whatever you want to say. I try to operate 100% outside the box, which can annoy some people.

John: It’s how you’re supposed to be, and the box is too small.

David: I told him, I said, we’re doing this really cool event, talking about self-care. We’re keeping it super high level, so from an HR perspective, you don’t really get yourself in trouble. I worked with him, I worked with the HR team, and we brought in Katie to have this really heart-to-heart conversation about bringing your whole self to work and how important it is to take care of yourself. Most people talk physically, but the mental side is massive. Doing that and that was really the first time actually the two worlds have collided, which is pretty cool for them to see in action what we’re doing.

John: Yeah. That’s great, man. That’s so cool because that’s a big part of who you are. To not talk about your daughters, to not talk about FountainHead, to not talk about things that light you up and bring you joy; it’s like, well, then what am I doing here? Just putting in the hours and going home? There is so much more to this, like you said earlier.

David: Yeah. It’s like you’re a big basketball fan, played basketball my whole life, and it’s like showing up to a game. They’re like, put your left hand behind your back and tie it. I’m like, but I’ve got two hands. No, you can only use one of them. Dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.

John: Right? That’s exactly it. It’s going to work with one arm tied behind your back like that. Well, why would you do that? You have skills and expertise and a mindset that you have that other people don’t have.

David: It’s just the way it was done.

John: Yeah, exactly. No one cares. If no one’s talking about it, then no one’s doing anything. It’s like, no, no, everyone’s doing awesome stuff. Why don’t we talk about, and why don’t we find that out? Before FountainHead, was it probably basketball that you talked about? Or was it just kind of…

David: Yeah, just sports. The list of things you can’t talk about is just growing by the day. There’s not much left for us to talk about.

John: That’s true. I do think, and provided it’s not taboo or illegal, then that’s totally fair game. If it’s the same thing, that’s bonus. Even if it’s something I’ve never heard of, or don’t know anything about, well, we’re not in sixth grade anymore, where we’re going to get made fun of and shoved in a locker. I actually have questions about this. I don’t know the rules of lacrosse. Why are they so weird? Why is it that when the ball goes out of bounds, it’s not who touched it last, but it’s who was closest to the line? Explain that to me, or whatever.

David: The whole lacrosse thing and the hockey, two things I just don’t understand.

John: Totally, but people love that stuff. It’s like, tell me about hula dancing or ballroom dancing or whatever it is. Because you can just see people light up, and they’re just so alive. It’s like, yeah, more of that, please; especially in the office, in the corporate setting.

David: I think that lighting up, that’s the whole thing. I always laugh because my wife, we’ll be having a conversation and all of a sudden, she’s like, you’re glowing. I’m like, what? She’s like, I can just tell you’re really passionate about what you’re talking about. I’m like, oh, okay. Sometimes you just need people to point it out and be like, you know what, that is what makes me happy, and then trying to figure out how to get more of that.

John: Yeah, especially, at work where it’s just, well, we’ve got to get the work done. No, the work will happen. It’s like breathing or your heartbeat. You’re not even thinking about that. It’s happening. It’s going to happen. It’s exercise and mindfulness and things that you have to be intentional with. Because if you don’t, then they don’t happen. It’s the same with your “and”. Your job is going to happen. It’s going to get done. The work will get done. Don’t freak out about it. It’s fine. We know why we’re getting paid. That’s our job. It’ll happen.

David: You’re not saving babies. Unless you are actually saving babies, then your job is super important.

John: Right. In that case, think about it but…

David: Take your lunch, get outside, go for a walk, have walking meetings, all those things are super helpful. Take a break. Go to the gym. That’s what we try to tell people. We’re in year-end right now. We are working Saturdays. It’s just busy right now. If you don’t take the 5, 10 minutes, you’re basically going to come out in, whatever, March, February for us, April, we don’t do that whole April 15th thing anymore, you’re going to come out, and there’s going to be nothing left to you. You’ll be sick because your body’s broken down; and mentally, you’re just going to be all over the place. You’ve got to go in strong and then you’ve got to keep it going throughout the process.

John: Yeah, I love that man. I love that that’s something that Amica’s doing. It’s stressing that because it is important. We do care about you as a whole person because we hired the whole person, type of thing.

David: It’s not rocket science.

John: It really isn’t. When I speak at conferences and stuff, I’ll have people be like, isn’t this intuitive? I’m like, oh, totally. It’s totally intuitive, but you’re not doing it.

David: It’s like financial literacy. Don’t spend more than you make. It’s not that difficult, but life gets in the way and things happen.

John: Exactly. How much do you think it is on the organization, it sounds like Amica is explicit with, hey, this; or how much is it on the individual to just maybe create a little circle amongst their peers, maybe bottom-up sort of idea?

David: Yeah, I’m one of those that takes full responsibility for anything that I do, good or bad. It’s great if the employer sets you up for that. That’s awesome. If you have that foundation from a culture standpoint, that’s on you. When I was working at Grant Thornton, they always said, be the captain of your own career, and that’s something I’ve carried myself with. When we have career meetings, it’s like, you tell me what you want out of this conversation. I don’t want to drive the conversation because it’s different for every person. Tell me what you want to work on. Tell me how you best learn, and I need to reshape myself to get the best out of you. I can’t treat every person the same. They’re not the same. You tell me what works best for you, and I’m going to have to do that.

John: That’s awesome, man. That’s the thing I’ve always wondered is, what’s your dream job? If it’s to be a senior analyst or whatever, a staff person, whatever, then, awesome, okay; but it’s probably not. There’s probably something that you want to be and become. Well, how about I help you get that? You know that I care about you. You’ll probably stay longer. You’re more engaged. Then when you get that other position, you’ll remember, type of a thing. It’s just we’re all in this rat race together. Why don’t we help each other, something, just live a better life? That’s awesome to hear because it’s, are my people living their best life? Working here is part of that, but so are eight or ten other things. If those aren’t good, then the one work thing is definitely not going to be good.

David: Yeah. I tell all my people, we spend more time at work with each other than we do our own families, and I want to have fun. Whatever it is to bring your whole self to work, if you’re not getting that, well, let’s figure out how to make that happen because a miserable you makes a miserable me, and I don’t want to be miserable.

John: Right. So good.

David: You can put that on a T-shirt.

John: That’s the bumper sticker right there, a miserable you makes a miserable me. Marriage 1.0. There it is. That’s awesome, man. It’s so cool to hear that you have that mindset and that Amica encourages that, which is really awesome. That’s so cool. Do you have any words of encouragement to people listening, maybe somebody that has an “and” that they think, well, no one’s going to care, it has nothing to do with my job, so why talk about it?

David: Yeah, I was thinking about this before, so I got five that I’ll walk through. The first one, block out the noise and do you. That’s something that I’ve tried to take to heart. There are plenty of people in the world that want to take things from you, put you down. People get annoyed when they see you happy. Why are you so happy? You should be miserable. I’m miserable. Find a place that not only allows you to bring your whole self to work, but actually appreciates you doing that. We had the conversation about employees bringing their whole self to work, being happier, loving what they do, are more productive, leading to better company results. I think we’ve all seen plenty of metrics on that.

Second thing, invest in yourself. If you’re not willing to invest in yourself, it’s hard to expect other people to do the same. When it comes to investing in yourself, most people say, it costs a lot of money. There are so many things that you can do that are free. Read books, articles. There’s so much free content out there right now because of the pandemic. Take advantage of that with everything shifting online. Third thing, get back along the way. NABA, the National Association of Black Accountants has this motto, lift as you climb. That’s something that my dad preached to us when we were growing up. The thing I like to say is, what’s the point of climbing the world’s tallest mountain if, when you get to the top and look around, you’re all alone? That’s what I took home in public was, you work so much. You’re looking at the partners across the desk. When you come into work, they’re there. When you leave, they’re still there. You’re like, do I really want to do this? That’s the conversation we’ve been having, and the partners know this because they’re really good. It’s on them to set the course for all of us to get out of the office at a reasonable time and make it a place where you want your people to work someday.

John: Absolutely, because otherwise, people feel like it’s a trap. Well, they’re here when I get here in the morning. When I leave, I’m leaving at 7:30pm, and they’re still here. It’s like, am I okay to leave now? It’s like, get the hell out of here. What are you doing?

David: The pay is great, but you never get to see the money. You can’t take vacations. It’s not a knock against the public world. It’s just, sometimes, like we’re saying, you do what was done before. We’re saying it’s okay to break the mold. It’s okay to do things differently.

John: Because you’re the partner, you’re the CFO, you’re the lead engineer. You’re that title. Be you.

David: Work six hours. If you get your job done, then great. If it takes you 12, okay, let’s figure out how to make you more efficient, but don’t work six hours and then sit there for two hours because you have to punch a magical clock. You’re wasting people’s time. You’re making them miserable.

John: It’s true. It translates so much. It’s even in corporate. There are people that just have that mindset of, I have to be here X number of hours. It’s not even just eight. It’s more. It’s 10 or 11, 12 hours. No, you don’t.

David: I worked 15 years to make partner. How are you going to make it in eight? Well, we have these things called computers and technology. I have unbelievable content at my fingertips. If I want to research something, you just get on Google, and you can find anything you want, you need at the time.

John: Exactly. Exactly.

David: I’ve got a couple more. Get comfortable being uncomfortable, which we kind of talked about. Saying yes to anything that pushes the limits of your comfort zone helps you grow as an individual or a leader in your career. I found this quote, Aretha Franklin, “It’s the rough side of the mountain that’s the easiest to climb. The smooth side doesn’t have anything for you to hold onto.” I love that quote.

John: Yeah. There you go. Unless you’re going down.

David: Unless you’re going down, you want the smooth side, yeah, way more fun. Then build a solid financial foundation. I serve in the AICPA’s, financial literacy commission for the last six years. Financial literacy is a big passion of mine. It’s really hard for people to concentrate on anything else, work, family, whatever it may be, if you’re worried about your home being foreclosed, or your car being repossessed. Take care of your own house.

A bonus one, 212 Degrees, a book by Sam Parker, I don’t know if you’ve ever read, it’s amazing. It basically says, at 211 degrees, you have hot water. At 212 degrees, you have boiling water. Boiling water can create steam. Steam can power a locomotive. It basically goes through all these things. They use the PGA Tour a lot, where the difference between the person that wins and the second place is a massive amount of monetary gain. If you had just tried a little bit harder, and it uses the concept of and some, just a little bit harder, tried just a little bit more, gave us a little bit more, the outcomes are massive. I use it. We use it internally as a joke, with me and my wife. She’ll take the trash out of the trash bin and put it next to it instead of putting it in the bin outside where it goes. I’d be like, oh, super, thanks for giving 130%. That’s awesome. Maybe if you did a little bit more and put it in… Then you get hit with a bag of bread or something like that.

John: Yeah, it’s like 211 degrees right here. That was good. You did it. Seinfeld has a great bit about that too, like the 100-yard dash in the Olympics where it’s like, you train all your life, you never eat carbs, you nothing, and then start, done. No. Literally first place, second place. On the box of Wheaties, never heard of you.

David: Massive pressure for them, trained for years for something that short. It’s crazy.

John: Exactly. I love all those, man, so much advice there, so great. I feel like it’s only fair though, before I wrap this up, that I turn the tables and make this the first episode of the David Almonte podcast. If you have any questions for me, I’m all yours. Let it rip.

David: Alright, favorite sport to watch and favorite sport to play.

John: Okay, so favorite sport to watch, easily, college football. That’s easily my favorite. I think just the whole experience and everything about it, there’s a passion there that’s deep.

David: The atmosphere is unmatched, I agree.

John: Yeah, totally. Especially, live, in person; there’s the band, there’s the whole tailgating, there’s all of it, the whole day of it. To play, I’m kind of at that age where I’m nervous.

David: You just don’t want to get injured.

John: Yeah, exactly. Definitely not basketball anymore because it’s just like, all my legs are going to explode. Yeah, I don’t know. I enjoy snowboarding here in Colorado. I guess that counts. They’re mostly solo things now, unfortunately. Although, soccer, I do enjoy playing soccer. When you’re in an older man’s league, then it’s a little bit easier.

David: It’s also dangerous because everyone’s out of shape, and they’re very aggressive.

John: Yeah, my brain is still like high school and college John. I can make that. I can catch that pass, or I can run that down. You start, and then you’re like, oh, no, I’m not even going to get close to that. That’s not even going to happen. We’ll just let that one go. I’ll get the next one.

David: Yeah. I’ve got one more. For most people, public speaking is kind of the thing that they fear the most. Obviously, with you as stand-up comedian, I don’t think that’s one of your fears. It’s funny, most people would rather be in the casket than giving the eulogy.

John: Exactly. That’s a great Seinfeld bit, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: What scares you the most? What’s a big fear of yours that you have?

John: Oh, wow, that’s a good one. Well, girls have cooties so bad.

David: That’s a given.

John: That’s a given. We already knew that one. I don’t know. Sometimes, like the edge of a cliff, it’s not necessarily like the fear of heights. It’s the fear of falling from that height, if that makes sense. Because I have no problem flying, gondolas, I have no problem, chairlifts, I have no problem, but it’s just that edge of that cliff where it’s just like, wow, this is…

David: Yeah, it’s the in-between.

John: Yeah, that and then also too, there’s a part of me that’s, I’m probably similar to you, where it’s achieving your full potential. I guess as you get older, you start to realize a lot of self-limiting beliefs that maybe you subconsciously put on yourself, and you’re like, wow, I need to remove that and then you level up. Just writing a book really uncovered that for me. Then how the book has resonated with people, and the Amazon reviews; you’re like, wow, this is awesome. People I don’t even know reading the book and taking the time to do that. It’s cool. On the flip side, it’s also you don’t want to just paralyze yourself of constantly always trying to be better. It’s like, all right, within reason, sort of a thing, without burning out, then you start back at zero.

David: Yeah, and celebrating those small wins along the way. That’s something I struggle with that I need to work on.

John: Exactly. For sure, man. Well, this has been awesome, David. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”?

David: Of course. Thank you so much for having me, and congrats on everything you’ve got going on.

John: Oh, thanks, dude. I appreciate it. Likewise, man. Starting a nonprofit’s not easy, as you joked about earlier.

Everyone, if you want to see some pictures of David outside of work, or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use, and for sharing this with your friends, so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 485 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. It goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it, and listening to it, and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the workplace cultures where they are because of it.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Fara Rosenweig. She’s the head of content marketing at WorkRamp in the San Francisco Bay Area. And now, she’s with me here today. Farah, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Fara: Thank you, John. I’m so excited to be here and chat with you on What’s Your “And”?

John: No. This is gonna be awesome. And you have an awesome “and.” But before we get into it, I have some rapid-fire questions here to get to know Fara right out of the gate. So, maybe an easy one. Favorite color.

Fara: Ooh, pink.

John: Pink? Okay. Okay. How about a least favorite color?

Fara: Maroon.

John: Maroon! Nice! Okay.

Fara: That was a tricky one.

John: That’s not a color you hear. Yeah. You don’t hear it super often. And I am with you on that. It’s a little too dark.

John: Yeah. It doesn’t lift my spirits.

Fara: Right. Right.

John: How about a TV show that you would binge watch?

Fara: Oh, Sex in the City.

John: Ah, yeah. And they’re back now. Right?

Fara: And just like that, yes, they’re back and I’ve binged watched all of those.

John: Right. Well, ‘cause wasn’t it something where like they were releasing on like normal shows back in the day where it was like one a week?

Fara: Yeah. And that’s what they did too and it was very frustrating. So, I had to wait a few weeks so I could binge a few shows.

John: How did we make it through the `90s? How did we do it?

Fara: Yeah.

John: That’s so funny. There you go. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzle?

Fara: Oh, crossword.

John: Crossword, okay. There you go. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Fara: Actor Paul Rudd.

John: Oh, yeah. He’s great.

Fara: Yeah. Actress Julia Roberts.

John: Oh, nice. Yeah.

Fara: Yeah.

John: Classics. There you go. And very funny both of them.

Fara: Yeah.

John: Very funny. Would you say more shower or bath?

Fara: Shower.

John: Shower, there you go. Just get in and out. Let’s do this. I’m similar. I’m like if I didn’t have to, I wouldn’t like why am I near. Like let’s just do this. That’s awesome. Ooh, here’s a fun one. Maybe a least favorite vegetable.

Fara: Oh, mushrooms.

John: Mushrooms, okay.

Fara: Uh-huh.

John: Yeah. They’re kinda weird. Right?

Fara: I think it’s the consistency. I don’t know. I’ll eat it if I have to. But if I have to choose, I’ll forego.

John: When I was on a recruiting visit with PricewaterhouseCoopers, I was in college, and I just wanted the job. And we went to dinner, and the guy that was recruiting me ordered like what’s the big one that’s like—

Fara: Oh, Portobello?

John: Yeah. And I was like “Oh, no.” ‘Cause those are meanie.

Fara: Yeah. And you got to eat it, right, because you’re like recruiting.

John: You couldn’t like with a drink pour it in a plant.

Fara: Yeah. No. You gotta eat it.

John: I was like “Oh, my gosh.” Like I’m still having repercussions from that, but here we go. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Fara: Oh, Star Wars.

John: There you go. On May 4th. Of course, it is Star Wars. There you go.

Fara: And your birthday week. Happy Birthday! I forgot to mention that at the top. That’s so awesome. So awesome. There you go. How about a favorite season? Summer, winter, spring, or fall? Oh, probably fall.

John: Fall? Yeah, me too.

Fara: Yeah. It’s boot season.

John: Yeah. Right. Right. How about your computer, more PC or Mac?

Fara: Mac. Apple products all the way.

John: Oh, there you go. There you go. Yeah. You are a marketer. That makes sense.

Fara: Yeah. I’m a walking advertisement for Apple stuff.

John: You’re all in.

Fara: Except the iWatch. I don’t have the iWatch. I’m Garmin all the way.

John: Oh, okay. Okay.

Fara: Yeah. That’s like the only switch right there.

John: Switch.

Fara: Yeah.

John: Yeah. Well, I’m sure it’s only a matter of time until they buy Garmin and then it’s mine. Make Fara’s dreams come true. How about a favorite Disney character?

Fara: Oh, my goodness. It’s gonna be one of the princesses. Let’s go with Belle from— Yeah, Belle. Beauty and the Beast Belle.

John: Okay. Beauty and the Beast. Okay. There you go. Yeah. Totally good one. How about are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Fara: Early bird.

John: Early bird. Okay. Yeah. Most runners I guess tend to be like that.

Fara: Yeah.

John: We got four more. Would you say more print or digital marketing?

Fara: I am digital marketing like I live and breathe digital marketing.

John: You prefer digital. Yeah. Yeah.

Fara: Yeah. But I prefer actually like reading print marketing. Like I like those postcards. I like everything paper, but I’m in the digital world. So, I have to go digital.

John: Okay. All right. Yeah. You don’t wanna get kicked out.

Fara: And I want a job.

John: There you go. There you go. There you go. How about a favorite number?

Fara: 7.

John: 7. Yeah. Is there a reason?

Fara: I have no. Ever since I was little, I just kept on saying 7 was my lucky number.

John: No. No. It’s a very popular one. I was just curious. Yeah. No. That’s just as good of a reason as any. And maybe I know the answer to this one based on your last answer, but books. Audio version, e-Book, or a real book?

Fara: Oh, real book all the way.

John: That’s what I was guessing.

Fara: I bought a Kindle in 2020.

John: Oh, wow.

Fara: I mean, it was great. I can’t believe I waited this long. Actually, no. It was 2019. Excuse me. Right before the pandemic, but I still prefer the real deal.

John: Yeah. Absolutely. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Fara: My dog.

John: Oh, yeah. What kind of dog?

Fara: I have a Golden Doodle.

John: Oh, nice!

Fara: He is a puppy.

John: Oh, there you go. There you go. What’s his name?

Fara: His name is Doug.

John: Doug, yes. I love that. I love that. That’s so good.

Fara: Yeah. I got him in the middle of the pandemic. I’m a dog person. I got him in the pandemic. And I am so grateful for his companionship. He is just a bundle of joy.

John: That’s so great. And his name is Doug. So, it’s even better.

Fara: Yeah. Exactly.

John: So, it’s like “Doug, don’t poop on that.” And it’s like “What? Who are you talking to?”

Fara: It’s great. At the dog park, people are like “Is his name Doug or Dog?” And I’m like “No. Doug like Douglas.”

John: Right? Like are you yelling at some random guy across the—

Fara: Exactly.

John: Nope. My dog. That’s so good. I love it. That’s so awesome. That’s so awesome. Well, let’s talk running and running Ragnars and marathons.

Fara: Let’s do it. All of that.

John: Like Forrest Gump running. How did you get started running? Were you always into this when you were a kid?

Fara: No. Believe it or not, I hated running. I hated it. I remember in middle I had a knee injury and I had my doctor write a note saying I can’t run the mile like I absolutely hated it and then I actually danced a lot. Like I did ballet and tap, jazz all my childhood, and in high school, and even in college. But in middle school, I think it was like 7th or 8th grade, because I was doing so much outside of school activity 3 to 4 hours after school, I was able to get out of gym completely.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Fara: So, in middle school, I didn’t have to run. I didn’t have to participate in PE. It was amazing. And then in high school, because I was part of the dance team and the cheer team, I didn’t have to do PE. Instead, I was practicing with my cheer team or dance team. So, I never had to run.

John: Oh, yeah. It makes sense. It wasn’t until college— I wanna say it was my junior year of college. I wasn’t 21 yet, so 19 or 20. My girlfriend, she was a runner. She was a soccer player, started running. And she was in great shape. And at that point, I had a couple injuries. So, I wasn’t dancing as much. I was really working out a lot. I loved the gym and that’s like my playground. And I was like “Well, she can do it. Like she’s in great shape. She can do it. Well, why not? I’ll do it.” And so, I ran a 5K. And I was like “Oh, that was easy.” And then I signed up for a marathon, but I was petrified everyone’s gonna laugh. I was petrified to run outside. I had no idea.

This was before Strava even came around. Like there were no apps. I was either using a Discman to listen to music or like the very first iPods. I can’t remember. It was very clunky. And I was petrified to run outside because I didn’t know how to navigate roads or anything like that. So, I literally trained on a treadmill at the gym. I plopped myself in front of the TV because the college I went to had these great TVs and you can plug your headphones into the treadmill and listen. So, I was either watching the news or whatever rom-com they had on. And I would just run aimlessly on the treadmill and that’s how I trained for my first race.

John: And that’s also how you came to love Paul Rudd and Julia Roberts because they’re in all the rom-coms.

Fara: Yeah. The best time if anyone’s like how could you do it, I tell you the best times to run on a treadmill was like during a sporting event if it was like football or basketball March madness because you get like that adrenaline and you’re like “Go!” Yeah. I trained on a treadmill for my very first—

John: That’s impressive.

Fara: …race.

John: Well, you probably would have run a marathon from getting lost. So, I mean, it’s good that you didn’t go outside because you would have been like I just did two marathons just trying to get home. Like I don’t even know. Yeah. That’s so awesome. And so, you just got started there. And then ever since, you’ve just been signing up and going?

Fara: Yeah. I think part of it is like I’m a very competitive person and a part of it is the only competition is myself. So, whatever I set mentally, I was like “okay, this is what I’m gonna do” and I’m gonna achieve it. I’m not competing with anyone else. So, I think that was part of it. And then also, at that time, running wasn’t very popular. Even fitness was not the industry than what it is now. And so, I was like “Look at what I’m doing and look at what all you are doing. I’m way better.” It sounds terrible, but so many of my friends were achieving all these other things in whatever career they were doing.

John: In life.

Fara: Yeah. They’re getting married or having kids and like look what I’m doing. I’m doing these things that a lot of people can’t set out to do. That was also my motivation.

John: We’re each in our own lanes, you know, and doing our own thing. That’s great, you know, ‘cause I mean so many people feel like “Well, I have to do this certain thing or I have to be this certain way at work or in life.” And you don’t. You don’t at all. Like none of those things.

Fara: Yeah.

John: I would even venture to say that a good percentage of those people aren’t doing it because that’s who they are. They’re doing it because of those reasons of they feel like they have to, or be this thing, or whatever. And it’s like be you. That’s so cool. So, do you have a favorite race or some fond memories that you have from some of those?

Fara: I do. I have a few favorites. I have to say they’re half marathons, but the Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, they’re both full marathons and halves. but the Tel Aviv and Jerusalem races are epic. I did them— Oh, what years were they? 2016 and 2018 or 2019. I can’t remember when the Tel Aviv was. I mean, you are running through history. How epic is that? And it’s just being international. You see just a complete different culture of people running, the types of attire. I was just fascinated by how people train in different climates and stuff. So, it was just amazing. And it’s honestly the best way to see a city, is by running. So, so I prefer the half marathon distance because it’s less training than a full marathon, but you still tackle such grounds to see epic scenery. It’s a toss-up between those two.

John: Those are both awesome though.

Fara: Yeah. They’re great.

John: Yeah. And you’re right. I mean, instead of doing a walking tour, well, why don’t we just run this and I get a T-shirt? And like everything’s good.

Fara: And a medal.

John: Right. And a medal.

Fara: And a banana at the end.

John: A banana. Right. I did one half marathon in my life. And yeah, it was like “Give me the banana. Let’s go. I’m out. I’m retiring. This is enough.” You find out the guy from Kenya did it in like 10 minutes and I’m like out there for 2 hours. I mean, I broke 2 hours, so I was pretty impressed with that.

Fara: That’s great.

John: But then I was like “You know what? That’s good and I’m done so like we’re out.”

Fara: Yeah.

John: And so, that’s awesome all over the world. And the pictures that you have at What’s Your “And”? on the show page are really cool too.

Fara: Oh, yeah. Every race has a great memory to it.

John: Right?

Fara: Yeah. I just love it. Yeah.

John: It’s so cool. And is this something that you talk about with coworkers or clients? Does it come up?

Fara: It does come up. When I find out someone’s a runner or some sort of a weekend warrior, we usually end up geeking out a little bit about “oh, what are you trading for” or “what gym do you go to….” So, it’s a great conversation starter. It’s a great way to meet people. Whenever I travel, especially if I’m in a new city or if I move anywhere, I go find a gym, or a running club, or something and that’s the best way for me to connect with people, and meet people, and just build those different types of relationships.

John: Yeah. Even at work, it’s connecting on a human level as opposed to what work do you do. It’s like “Well, we’ll get to that in a minute like who are you?” That’s awesome.

And so, do you feel like the relationships with the people that are weekend warriors are maybe just a little bit different than everyone else in the office?

Fara: Yeah. I think we just have a different bond I guess.

John: Totally. Of course.

Fara: (A) You build a different relationship. So, I find it’s easier to work with people when you build that relationship. And then also, they set a goal and they try to achieve it. I don’t care how long it’s gonna take them. I don’t care if it takes them 16 weeks versus 8 weeks to train for something. I don’t care if they’re in shape or overweight. They set a goal. They’re trying to do it. And so, in a work environment, when you connect with people like that, they have that same mentality. I would say 95% of this type of person, they have that mentality. I’m gonna have a goal. I’m gonna do it. There might be multiple ways to get there, but I’m gonna do whatever it takes to get to my goal. So, it’s a great environment to work in because everyone wants to perform well at work. I shouldn’t say everyone. Most people want to.

John: Right. I mean, I’m sure there’s one.

Fara: Yeah. There’s always that one, but yeah. It helps working with people with like mindsets because at the end of the day, we wanna help each other succeed and we’re each other’s biggest cheerleader. So, it’s like “Okay, this is what you wanna achieve. Let’s figure out how we’re gonna tackle it together. What’s gonna be our training plan?” And we all know it’s not a sprint. It’s a marathon. So, we have to just chisel away each step of the way to get to that overall goal.

John: Yeah. No, I love it. And you’re right. I mean, you can’t ask someone to not bring that mindset to work because what am I supposed to come to work with? Like one arm tied behind my back? Like why would I do that? Like I have these other skills that are above and beyond my college degree, and my certifications, and my trainings that there’s a skillset that’s from your “and” and that mentality and that mindset certainly plays out at work. And you can’t turn it off.

Fara: No.

John: And it’s cool that you are proactive in wanting to find out about people. And even if they’re not weekend warriors, there’s something else, but it’s like, well, you have a different mindset, a different skillset than I do. So, when we need that, I’m definitely coming to you.

Fara: Oh, totally. Yeah. And you know, it’s kind of my philosophy— Some people agree with it. Some people don’t. But there’s more than one way to get somewhere. The same thing in a work environment. There’s more than one way and I bring a lot of strength to the table. I also don’t have a lot of strength, but that person might bring those other strengths. And then together, we can just create world domination.

John: There it is. There it is. That’s it. World domination, I love it. And the people think that there’s only one way or definitely not doing the best way. They’re just doing a way and they think it’s good enough and then they’re like okay, but then we’re just gonna do this. And it’s like not really.

Fara: Yeah.

John: You know, there’s other ways, but I love that so much. And I guess how much is it on an organization to be able to create that space to allow people to share or encourage people sharing their “ands” versus how much is it on the individual? Like in your case, it sounds like just finding out like just ask.

Fara: I think it’s a combination of both. It depends on the person. Some people might be very shy and closed, so they don’t want to share. And then that’s where I come in. I can kind of read people and, weird, I like to talk. I like to connect with people. So, I’m gonna be that person that’s gonna ask those questions anyway. But on the flipside, it’s great if people can come out and say “Oh, this weekend, I did X, Y, Z.” And so, that’s kind of the icebreaker and then you can start domino effect. “What’s your weekend hobby?” “Oh, running.” “Oh, what trail did you do?” Or this, that, and you kind of go down that rabbit hole and then it’s a great way to connect with people.

John: Yeah. I wonder how many rabbit holes you go down that are work related versus running related. I’m guessing not very many.

Fara: Yeah.

John: I mean, human nature, it’s just— You know, we think that the work-related conversation is what we have to do. Work gets done and you have to be good at your job. And you certainly have to get that done. It’s just it’s very rare that you’re running down these rabbit holes that are work related where you’re like “What? No way. What?” but when it’s something “and” related, then, man, we’re gone. I don’t even know what we did this afternoon. I just ordered a new pair of shoes. You got a new running watch. Like we’re all good. You know, we signed up for races in Jerusalem and what’s up? But that’s so cool to hear that that happens and that you’ve experienced that for sure. And I guess what would be some barriers to people not wanting to share? Maybe, like you said, they’re maybe a little shy.

Fara: I guess the barriers are they might not feel safe in that environment yet and it might take them some time to break it down, which is completely okay.

No one’s forcing you to talk about your personal life. So, I suggest waiting until you feel comfortable. Or if you overhear someone talking about it in a meeting, that’s when you can kinda chime in. Slack these days, they have different channels for different sports, different hobbies, or your different “ands.” So, that’s when you can join in those slack channels and kind of oversee and then slowly start that conversation. So, I used to be like that like not really wanting to talk about some of my personal stuff. I felt judged. I wasn’t sure. Now, over the years, I’m like whatever. If you don’t want to share, you don’t have to share, but then you’re also missing out on some sort of personable relationship that can help you in some way, shape, or form in the work environment. That’s kind of how I look at it.

One of my CMOs told me get to know a CFO quickly because they’re the ones that’s gonna give you the budget. A CFO that I used to work with, I think I saw a photo of him hiking or something. So, I just immediately like went there. I was like “Oh, I notice you hike.” Ask him the 20 questions and that was an icebreaker. We probably for like a month or two did not talk about work. I didn’t talk to him about teach me your CFO ways, like I wanna understand your lingo or anything. I just built that relationship first and asked him questions and then I was able to build a solid relationship. And you know what? I got almost every budget I wanted approved after that.

John: What do you know, right? I mean, it’s amazing how connecting as humans even though it’s in business, it’s still human to human transactions.

Fara: Right. Exactly.

John: And I love too how you were like I was afraid of being judged. I think most of that judgment is happening in our own minds.

Fara: Oh, totally.

John: Because once you started to share that you’re running, it’s like no one’s judging that. They were like “This is awesome. Like what? Like when’s your next one?”

Fara: Yeah. In 2 weeks actually.

John: Right. There you go. There you go. Yeah. And so, it’s just cool to hear how much of it is just in our own heads. And when you do share, and when you do get out, and when you do try to connect especially cross department like that, oh man, it’s magic and just what lights you up. Here’s what lights me up. And we’re humans and like let’s talk about it because it brings some emotion to work sort of a thing. To wrap this up, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone that maybe they like to run or they have another “and” that they feel like no one cares about or has nothing to do with their job?

Fara: If you feel like you’re the only one doing that, you’re not alone. There’s everyone out there doing some sort of “and” and maybe you’re not a runner, maybe you enjoy hiking, maybe you enjoy rollerblading, maybe it’s book club. I have a lot of friends who are faster runners than me or they’re more regimen about their eating habits. They have like a very strict diet especially race weekend, all this stuff. But at the foundation, we all have this thing like we enjoy doing something. We set this goal and we’re gonna achieve it. And I think that’s the thing that brings us together. So, don’t think you’re alone. There’s someone out there. I love actually connecting with newbies because I remember what it’s like as a newbie. It’s intimidating. I get so excited when people are like I’m doing my first 5K, 10K, whatever distance it is. I’m like I’m gonna be your biggest cheerleader. I text them in the morning, like race morning, good luck.

John: That’s awesome.

Fara: Because I remember what it was like. Almost every race I’ve gone myself, I’ve ran— it’s probably like 2 or 3 races I ran with people. So, I remember what that’s like and I didn’t have the support. And so, I just wanna provide that to people who might have those race day jitters and it builds a sense of community. And then also, I think another thing that I just love is that how people feel after. I just did that. I can’t believe I did that. And so, what an accomplishment to celebrate, so yeah.

John: Right. That’s super cool. Yeah. It’s just being alive and just sharing it. Like you said, slack channels are an easy way for you to just kind of creep around and you don’t even have to contribute. You just gotta look and you’re like “Oh, other people are doing this too.” And then eventually, you just share a little bit at a time and then what do you know. Before you know it, cool things and the CFO’s approving all your budget and like all that sort of goodness. That’s so awesome, Fara. Well, I feel like before we wrap this up, it’s only fair that I turn the tables because I so rudely asked you so many questions. We turn this into the Fara Rosenweig podcast and I’m your guest.

So, I’m all yours, whatever you wanna ask. Fire away.

Fara: First and foremost, I need to know what’s your “and.”

John: Okay. “And’s” college football, ice cream, concerts, play the piano a little bit, so yeah. I think those are good starts. So, definitely not running. Yeah. I retired after that half marathon.

Fara: But you know what? There’s a conversation there like “Oh, what half marathon did you do? You see what just happened?”

John: Yeah. Right.

Fara: Now, we’re connected.

John: In Indianapolis.

Fara: Okay.

John: And part of it was around the Indianapolis race track like the speedway.

Fara: So, that’s so cool.

John: Yeah.

]Fara: That’s so cool.

John: It was wild. 1And you don’t realize how banked that track is until you’re like running on it and you’re like “Woah, this is pretty slick. This is deep.”

Fara: So, you would never have even been able to experience that if you didn’t say “Hey, I wanna try running.” Now, you know you don’t wanna run, but you have this epic story when you ran on this track that no one’s ever been on.

John: Exactly right. Exactly right.

Fara: It’s so cool.

John: And my mantra the whole time was I didn’t wanna train as much as I guess you’re supposed to.

Fara: Yeah. That’s okay.

John: But my mantra was peak on race day. I was like I don’t wanna use up all my good stuff on training. I wanna use it all on race day. And luckily, I did all right.

Fara: Yeah.

John: Yeah. It’s all good. It’s all good.

Fara: You did it. That’s all that matters. You got to the finish line. You accomplished something. That’s epic.

John: Exactly. Exactly. There you go. Awesome. So, no, thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? And yeah, it’s just so great to have you be a part of this. So, thanks, Fara.

Fara: Oh, thank you. This was a pleasure John. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

John: So fun. And everyone, if you wanna see some pictures of Fara from some of her races or connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All that stuff is there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 483 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the workplace cultures where they are because of it.

And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Rick Maurer. He’s a speaker and adviser on change management and the author of seizing moments of possibility. And now, he’s with me here today. Rick, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Rick: Thanks, John. It’s good to be here.

John: Yeah. This is gonna be so much fun. Fellow trombone player. This is gonna be so awesome, but I do have some rapid-fire questions I have to ask before we get started. So, here we go. Maybe Star Wars or Star Trek?

Rick: Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. Yeah. Me too. Same. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Rick: Oh, PC.

John: Yeah. I’m the same too. All right. You might be just my ghost or Christmas future. It is what it is. We’re twins. Like this is.

Rick: Yeah.

John: How about when it comes to seasons? Summer, winter, spring, or fall?

Rick: Fall.

John: Yes. 3 for 3. This is amazing.

Rick: Oh, man.

John: All right. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Rick: Haagen-Dazs vanilla Swiss almond fudge.

John: Oh, wow. Okay. All right.

Rick: It’s amazing. Yeah.

John: Yeah. That does sound good. I haven’t had that yet. So, we’ll still count it. It’s an ice cream flavor, so that counts.

Rick: There you go.

John: How about a favorite day of the week?

Rick: Saturday.

John: Yeah. Totally. You just like veg out. Right?

Rick: Yeah.

John: Yeah. It’s not work where you don’t—

Rick: Well, I veg out every day, but yeah. But I don’t feel as guilty on Saturday.

John: There you go. I love it, man. That’s awesome. That’s so good. Since you are the trombone player, favorite position on the slide.

Rick: I don’t play a slide trombone. I play a valve trombone.

John: Oh! So then none of them. All right.

Rick: None of them.

John: In the first position. Like it’s your first position.

Rick: There you go. Yeah.

John: All right. So, you do the valve. Okay.

Rick: I do. Yeah.

John: All right. Is it still just 3 valves?

Rick: Yeah. It’s like the trumpet. I used to be a trumpet player.

John: Okay. Oh, there you go. All right. All right. That answers that one. Are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Rick: I wanna be a night owl. Unfortunately, life doesn’t work that way. So, I have to be an early bird. For instance, I did a call yesterday running a class for the Royal Danish Military Academy at 6 a.m. my time.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Rick: I know. But it’s really fun. So, I love doing these things. A lot of things in Europe, but it’s just these ungodly time.

John: Right. Right. Yeah. For me, it sounds ungodly. But yeah, for you, you’re like I’m ready to roll. Let’s do this.

Rick: Well, the miracle of caffeine helps a lot.

John: Right. Right. Yeah. I guess that’s true. I guess that’s true. How about a favorite number?

Rick: Wow. 7.

John: Yeah. Me too. Is there a reason? Like mine’s sports related for sure. I mean, you know, all the quarterbacks and all that whatever.

Rick: Oh, yeah. I have no idea why.

John: Yeah. No. That’s a good number. That’s a good number. How about books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Rick: I prefer real books. I tend not to use them as much, but I like having a book in my hand.

John: Yeah. Right. Okay. Okay. And you wrote a book, and the paperback and the audio version are on Amazon, but your e-Book is on your website, which is super cool. And what’s the website?

Rick: It’s rickmaurer.com.

John: Yeah. The e-Book is there if you wanna buy it and help them. The paperback and audio is there too, but the e-Book… So, that’s awesome, man. I just wanna plug it really fast.

Rick: Thank you.

John: All right. We got some more here. Cats or dogs?

Rick: Dogs.

John: Yeah. Me too. Same. I mean, yeah, cats are all right I guess, but I’m just afraid they’re gonna like swipe me, you know.

Rick: I’ll tell you. I was working in India and Kathy called me, my wife. And she said, “Hey, a friend of ours found these 2 kittens in a drain pipe outside.” Nothing about them seems like they’re feral. We’ve had them 3 years. They run to the door when we come home.

John: Oh. So, they’re like dogs.

Rick: They’re like low maintenance dogs.

John: Yeah.

Rick: Yeah, it’s really great. I like—

John: That’s great. You don’t have to let them out.

Rick: No, that’s right.

John: That’s right. That’s awesome. The low maintenance dogs. I love that. That’s so good. How about a puzzle? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzles?

Rick: The only ones I would ever even try is crosswords.

John: Okay. Yeah. That works. How about a favorite color?

Rick: Puce.

John: Oh, okay. All right. All right. Okay.

Rick: There you go.

John: That’s a first. Right? How about a least favorite color? Also puce. No, I’m just kidding.

Rick: Puce light I think.

John: Puce light. Pastel puce light

Rick: Yeah, that’s right.

John: That’s awesome. That’s hilarious. How about a favorite toppings on a pizza if you can load it up?

Rick: Oh, cheese. Just more cheese.

John: Oh, just more cheese. Okay.

Rick: Oh, yeah.

John: All right. Like a 4-cheese kinda. All right. I like that. All right. Three more. More shower or bath?

Rick: Shower.

John: Shower. There you go. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Rick: Well, Mark Rylance. A British guy. The fact that he was just in the movie, Don’t Look Up. He plays this kind of brilliant guy who owns the world.

John: Yes.

Rick: I’ve seen him live a few times. He’s marvelous.

John: Yeah. Yeah. That was a great movie.

Rick: Yeah.

John: How about a last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Rick: Favorite thing I have. On my wall here in my office, I have an album cover that Louis Armstrong signed for me.

John: Oh, what!

Rick: Yes.

John: That’s so cool, man. That’s great.

Rick: I went to a concert. My hometown in Ohio, it didn’t have a record store. The auto parts store sold records honest to God. And so, I knew I was gonna go see him. I wanted to get his autograph. And so, I had to drive over to the next town. And there was a candy store that sold records and they had one Louis Armstrong album. Not even a really good one, but I bought it. And at intermission, I went up and said “Mr. Armstrong, could I get your autograph?” And he said “Sure.” I wish I could do his voice because he was great. But he said “You don’t want just mine. Wouldn’t you like the bands’?” And I said “Yeah.” And he said “Well, come on backstage with me.”

John: That’s fantastic.

Rick: Yeah. So, he takes me back into the green room and all the guys are sitting there smoking. He said “Guys, this is Rick. Give him your autograph.” And one of the guys, the trombonist, heard the name wrong. And so, on the back of the record, it says “To Brick, have a great time.”

John: That’s awesome. Man, what a great story though. Like what a great experience and also too that he was like “Hey, I don’t do this without the whole band. Like do you want their autograph too?”

Rick: I was amazed. I mean, just to be in the presence. I’m not a star struck kind of guy, but man— I mean, he’s influenced me how I think about music, how I think about life in a lot of ways. To meet the guy was just like wow.

John: That’s awesome, man. I love it. That’s so cool and what a great memento and a cool thing to have on your office wall. That’s super cool, man. I love it. That’s great. So, let’s talk music and jazz. I mean, that leads right into it, which is perfect. I mean, did you grow up playing instruments?

Rick: I did. When the music teacher came around and said “so, who wants to play a musical instrument” and I did. So, there were some options, and I was watching— There was a show called Rin Tin Tin when I was a kid. And there was the bugler that would go out on these things with the cowboy. And I thought when we play cowboys, I wanan be the bugler. So, I got a trumpet and then I realized you could play other things other than that. I love classical and I love some country and all that, but I loved the whole idea of jazz. And we had a jazz big band in our school. And I couldn’t get enough. And some of my buddies and I formed a band. And it just stayed with me. I was a music major in college. Music was my life for a number of years.

John: That’s awesome, man. It’s so cool to hear. So then, it was trumpet and then valve trombone. Are there other instruments as well?

Rick: No. Actually, what had happened, I was playing in the concert band where I went to college. And I was sitting. There probably 12 trumpet players. And I was sort of in the middle of the section. And I realized by my sophomore year I was never gonna sit on that first stand. And I was talking to my teacher and I can’t remember if he said it or I said it. He said “Why don’t we try a bigger mouthpiece, which would be a trombone or euphonium?”

John: Baritone. Yeah. Yeah.

Rick: Yes, a baritone. And what was amazing is I was in the trumpet section and was just kind of in the pack. And when I switched instruments, I became section leader of the euphonium baritone section within a month. I was playing stuff I couldn’t even touch on trumpet. And so, I played that and then I went in the army as a musician on euphonium.

John: That’s incredible, man. That’s so awesome. Yeah. I mean, I started saxophone and then the re-vibration was weird on my teeth so that I went to trumpet because everyone you think plays trumpet.

Rick: That’s right.

John: But the mouthpiece was like too small for the way my mouth is and so yes. And then I went to trombone and I was like “Man, this is awesome.”

Like it’s great. Like it’s just perfect and a super fun instrument to play. And every once in a while, you get a little bit of a lead. But for the most part, you’re behind the scenes. But yeah, it’s funny when people are like “Oh, can you play this song?” And I’m like “I hope you like whole notes because it’s waaa… waaa…” Like I totally get to 1812 Overture, then let it rip, buddy. That’s where we come out like here it is. That’s so great to hear. You created a band like with your buddies and all that. Like that’s fun because it’s like you can’t get enough of it type of a thing. So, do you have like a favorite concert, or a rewarding story, or something that comes to mind over your playing days or even now?

Rick: Yup. 10 years ago, I got to know a guy named Carl Berger up in Woodstock, New York. And he was a pioneer in avant-garde jazz and free jazz. And what he got really good at is teaching people to play more spontaneously. So, even if they were playing written music, how do you plant— Like if you go to hear a tribute band or some of them they’re asleep at the wheel— I don’t mean the group asleep in the wheel.

John: Right.

Rick: And others who are going “Wow.” And so, he teaches you how to do that. So, he wanted to write a book. He’s German. And he said, “I speak English okay.” But he said, “I really like you to help me write it because you have written a lot of books, and I like what you’re doing with my stuff.” So, we wrote the book. It came out a couple of years ago. And 2 months ago, a buddy of mine, Mike Gaston, and I, went up to Woodstock. We live in the Washington, DC area. And we spent a day in a recording studio with Carl and Ken Filiano who is a very adventurous bass player. I had no desire for this to turn into something that I’m going to inflict on friends and relatives. What I wanted to do was the discipline of being in the studio, no music in front of me, a mic right there. And the way it was setup is so we can all see each other. We didn’t have baffles and all that stuff and just spending a day there and just trying stuff out. Carl said “All right. So, how about this?” He said “I’ll start something. Mike, you start something. Ken, you start something. Rick, you start something and then you just start improvising whatever you wanna do.” And it was a highlight.

John: It’s a magical moment, man. That’s super cool ‘cause, I mean, that’s the thing. I mean, I’m good at reading music, you know, playing the piano as well. But yeah, for jazz, I was good at the music side of it, but then it’s like “Okay. Now, it’s time for a trombone solo.” And I’m like “Ahhhh… Can you write it out for me?” I guess it just wasn’t as confident. You know what I mean? Especially when you’re in high school. You’re just sort of like, yeah, just not as confident in going off script. Like with the music in front of me, I’m great. Like I can totally read this and nail it, and give 2 times through and we’re good, but yeah. So, that’s an awesome experience and something where— because I mean that’s the weird thing, is life isn’t scripted. You know, this conversation is definitely not scripted. And so, you know, we do it every day and yet you put an instrument in my hand and I’m like “Ahhhh..” It’s like “Who cares? Like it doesn’t matter.” What is it supposed to be? And it’s like whatever you want it to be, man. Just let it go.

Rick: What you just said is certainly important in my life. I mean, the whole notion of starting with the structure, the tune, and then being able to improvise is exactly how I treat my work. I mean, if I had to do something day after day… “Hi! Today, we’re going to talk about… Oh, I have a story for you.” If I had to do the same stuff every day, I don’t know what I would do.

John: You would quit. Right? Right?

Rick: Yeah. So not only do I get to think about stuff, I get to keep trying stuff out. Everything always feels like a work progress and that works for me. I mean, it’s sloppier than the people who everything is scripted and now they cry on cue.

John: Right. Oh. Yeah.

Rick: I know. Yeah. That’s not me for better for worse. That’s what keeps my work refreshing at least for me.

John: No, I love it, man. And it’s just how much that music translates into your career. No one told you to play jazz and be a great musician and all this because it will make you better at your career, better consultant, but it clearly does. It clearly does. You know, our “and” give us the skillset that other people don’t have that maybe have the same degree or the same job title, but we have a different skillset.

Rick: Yeah. And you know, when I got out of college and then got out of the army, I enlisted in the army band. I was in for 3 years. I did not make it a career, although the band’s a really good band. I’m not a big fan of concert band music. I mean, it was fine when I played it, but I didn’t want that to be my career. And I also played a Herald trumpet, a bass Herald trumpet. And there are 16 of us and we would just follow the president around playing the chief.

John: Right. Yeah.

Rick: That was actually fun as a young guy, but I didn’t wanna make that a career. And so, and I quit playing. I basically quit playing for a lot of years.

John: Oh, wow.

Rick: But I’d go hear concerts. I would go to jazz clubs. I would be in my mind singing souls. And so, finally, I thought enough of this and I went on e-Bay, bought a trombone, got a teacher. And I said “Look, I wanna learn to play jazz.” That was, I don’t know, 15-16 years ago. Something like that. I had three really big consulting contracts. I mean, if you had looked at them, you would have gone “Woah, this is great.” And they were very lucrative. I mean, everything about it was really good except I hated all three of them. And I didn’t know that going in. And I mean, two of them, the clients just were acting in bad faith with each other. I mean, they just wanted to say “No. Well, we hired this guy. He wrote a book. And it didn’t make a difference.” But the third one, I said yes to something that didn’t excite me anymore. As a younger man, I would have gone “Wow, it’s a lot to learn in this.” And I didn’t realize I was phoning it in, and I didn’t like that about myself. And I didn’t realize it until way too late at any rate. So, I say to my wife “I am not good at this anymore.” And she said, “You know, I don’t think you’ve lost all your skills in the last 6 months. Maybe you were never any good.”

John: There you go. There you go.

Rick: You gotta see people. When I tell that story, people “Oh, you poor baby.”

John: No, no, that’s awesome. That’s so awesome.

Rick: She said “You know, you could be retired if you wanted. But if you wanna work, why don’t you back off a little bit and play more music?” And it took me a while to come around to that. And it’s funny. I was talking to a woman who had been a student of mine. And it’s funny. I was talking to a woman who had been a student of mine at the Gestalt Institute of Cleveland. And I was telling her the story. And she said “So, did you listen to your wife?” And I said “Well, not yet.” And she said “Why?” And I said “Well, you know, I don’t wanna retire. The concept just doesn’t fit for me.” But I said “I wanna know that I have the money there that in case I had to retire or something.” And she said “Well, how much more money do you need?” I said “I don’t know.” And she said “That will keep you working.”

John: Yeah.

Rick: So, the combination of Kathy making the joke and then Kim saying you gotta know what you need, I started thinking what if I only take on contracts that I think is gonna give me as much pleasure as music.

John: Oh, wow.

Rick: And so, it’s not like just taking time to make music, which I do. I mean, even right before our call, my horn is sitting arm’s length right here. I will play it later today. But how do I say yes to things that are going to enliven me just like practicing? And that’s made a huge difference. I might not have listened to someone giving me that advice when I first started because I was too hungry and I was trying to make a mark or something. But man, it’s made a huge difference in the quality of the work for me as well as I think for some of my clients.

John: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, you can tell. Like you said, you know, phoning it in and just kind of just going through the motions and whatever. And it’s so interesting to hear how you had put music aside for a long time because you thought “well, you know, that’s not what pays the bills or that’s not what’s important or whatever” and come to find out like that’s the foundation. That’s your joy and where you get the magic. If you don’t go to that well often enough, then you’re not as good of a person, let alone consultant, that you could be. So, it’s just cool to hear the difference between the non-music playing Rick and the now back to music playing Rick.

Rick: It’s a huge difference. Yeah.

John: Yeah. It’s just more alive I guess. It’s that source of life I guess. There’s depth to our “and” in these passions that we have outside of work. There’s real depth there. And I feel like it’s so easier for us to just put it on the backburner because that’s the first thing that’s “Well, it doesn’t matter, whatever.” But then it’s 10 years later and you’re like “What the hell? I haven’t done this in forever.”

Rick: I, I guess last year, started reading Harpo Marx’s autobiography. Your listeners might not know Harpo Marx, but you know his brothers.

John: Yeah. The Marx brothers.

Rick: Yes. He’s great at comedy.

John: And genius like wicked smart, people.

Rick: There you go.

John: Yeah.

Rick: I’m gonna paraphrase what the first paragraph was. But basically, he said “You know, I don’t know if in my life I’ve been a success or a failure.” And he said “But not knowing and actually not caring has allowed me to try out things I might never have tried out.” And I thought that could have been my mantra. Of course, I wanna be successful or I wanna do things well, but I’ve tried all kinds of things. Playwriting, a bunch of things. I didn’t make some national mark, but it was so much fun to do and to try out stuff.

So, to wait and say “okay, next year, I’m gonna do it” seemed—

John: That’s such a great quote. Plus too, like as people move up the corporate ladder, it’s like “well, now I’m the CFO” or “now, I’m the whatever C suite title, or even a manager title, or whatever.” And it’s like “Well, I can’t go and do that. It will look dumb if I’m not successful at it.” It’s like “No, it won’t.” It doesn’t matter. I mean, we’re all going through life. You know, I just love that where it’s give it a go. Who cares? You know, unless you’re Oprah— Like if you go by one name, then, all right, people are gonna— But even then, she’s so big that she doesn’t care. She’ll try things. Like it doesn’t matter. The lies we tell ourselves are so brutal and so limiting really. I mean, I’m as guilty of this as anybody. And so, it’s just cool to hear your experience through that and how important it is because there’s someone listening now that I’m sure had an “and” at one point and let it go. And it’s like “Get it back. Like what are you doing?” Right?

Rick: Yeah. I just thought of another story. My dad always kind of thought that these choices I was making were kind of really whackadoodle. Like what is he doing this time? And so, when I started writing plays, I was studying. And so, Kathy and I went home to my home for Thanksgiving. And my mom and Kathy had gone up to bed. And my dad and I are sitting there having a beer. And I never asked my dad for advice ever. Just wasn’t what I did because I never wanted to hear it.

John: Right.

Rick: But honest to God and I said—

John: No. No. It’s true. Yeah.

Rick: Yeah. And so, I said “I can use your advice.” I said “You know, I’ve been studying playwriting and have done some workshop things.” I said “I’m working on this play that I think could really actually be something good, but I need to take time to do it, which means I need to back off. Do you have any advice for me?” And he said “Yeah.” He started a furniture store in my hometown. And he said, “You know, I was working for a furniture store. It was really well-established.” And he said “I couldn’t get a loan from a bank.” And he said “I remember going into one bank and they said, well, Eddie, you have the most secure job in town. It’s been there for a century.” And my dad said “Oh, no, no. I have a job even more secure than that.” And they said “Really? What?” he said “I was in the army. They even gave me my underwear.” So, we both are laughing. And he said “You don’t wanna get to be 60 and go I wonder. I wonder if.” And he suddenly became my biggest supporter for that. He and my mom would come out and see when I had plays produced. I mean, it was really neat.

John: Yeah. What a powerful moment where you think “Well, he doesn’t get me. He doesn’t understand.” And he gets it 100% type of thing. Yeah. I’ve spoken at some like executive retreats or like partner retreats for professional services firms. And one in particular was a pretty huge— There were probably 120 partners for this accounting firm. And three of them were retiring. And it was an hour of stories about them. And there wasn’t a single mention of the amount of revenue they brought into the firm, or the number of clients, or number of hours they worked, or anything. They were just stories about life and who they were as people and things that we did outside of work and just all that. And I’m like “If you’re at the top, then, man, this is what really matters, you know.” So, everyone all along should also know that this is what matters or these stories. That’s so powerful, man. So powerful. And I love it so much. And I imagine too that the jazz plays into the change management that you do the consulting with because, like you said, I mean it’s unscripted and here we go. And you know, how do we work this out sort of thing.

Rick: Yeah. I mean, one of the things— It’s funny. In the book, I’m really talking about how do you blend support into what you’re already doing rather than change management sometimes is “Okay, when we have time, we’ll bring in the change management stuff.” And what I’m saying is “no, it needs to be blended in”, which means in some way or another you’re improvising. You’re trying something out like “Okay, if I did this presentation without slides, what might happen?” So, you’re just doing these tweaks here and there, but it’s a great way to learn. It’s also I think more fun.

John: Yeah. I mean, ‘cause the pressure isn’t there because it’s like “Well, it’s probably gonna fail 50% of the time or whatever” or we’ll see what happens. It’s experimental as opposed to this is the only answer type of thing.

Rick: It’s experimental within a structure. I mean, I’m not a fan of— I mean, some of the places where I studied. We’re all gonna get a room. Let’s see what emerges. I hate that. I just hate that. I’ll start the incense and give me a cab. I’ve gotta get out of here.

You’re there to do some work. Everybody knows we’re here to do some work, but the how we do it and the way we engage each other, there’s a lot of flexibility there. So, that’s really important to me. And so, that’s what I hope I bring always when I’m doing work.

John: For sure. Yeah. And I mean, it’s that music side of you that comes out. You know, you can’t hide it. You can’t not have that music brain turn on. And I love it so much, man. That’s awesome. So, Rick, before we kind of wrap up, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe has an “and” that they put on the backburner for a while or they don’t talk about at work because they don’t think it matters?

Rick: I realize that everyone’s situation can be different and there may be good reasons for saying I’ve got to put all this on the backburner for now.

John: Sure.

Rick: I also realized you may be paying the price if you’re doing that. And so, I would say even in a little way, if you can start to bring whatever that passion is into the work, I think it makes a difference in our actual work, but I think it makes our lives— for me at any rate, makes our lives richer.

John: For sure.

Rick: You know, more excitement in getting up in the morning.

John: No. Absolutely, man. I agree totally. So, it’s so cool to have you be a part of this. And I feel like it’s only fair since I peppered you with just questions at the beginning that I turn the table and make this the first episode of the Rick Maurer podcast. Thanks for having me on your show. So, whatever questions you’d like to ask—

Rick: I’m sorry, Joh, but we’re out of time. Hey, but it was great talking—

John: Exactly. I actually had a good friend who was booked on Letterman. And the first guest went long. It was like “Well, you got to come back.” And they weren’t able to come back. But yeah, you tell everybody “I’m gonna be on Letterman” and then “Well, no because so and so ran their mouth too long.” That’s hilarious. That’s so funny. Yeah, John, we’re done.

Rick: Actually, what I am curious about is— I mean, obviously, I agree with you on the “and” stuff, but what prompted you to say “Oh, I wanna go public with that, I wanna have a podcast about that kind of thing”?

John: That’s a great question. So, yeah. So, I was speaking at a conference, a pretty big conference. And I was backstage getting mic-ed up and the meeting professional comes back and she says “Hey, do you know this guy named Mark?” I’ll leave his last name off just for safety’s sake. And I was like “No, I’ve never heard that name in my life.” And she goes “Well, he knows you. He saw the speakers and right away goes “I know John Garrett. That’s the guy who did comedy at night.” I was like “What? Like who is this rain man? Like do I owe him 50 bucks? Like what’s going on?” So, I speak. I get off stage. I look on my link. He was in my first PWC office 12 years before that, and he was in the tax department, and I was one of those CPAs that doesn’t know how taxes work. So, I never went to that floor. I don’t know what Mark looks like. I never talked to mark. I never anything. And he remembers me for a hobby I did outside of work. And so, I started asking people like “Hey, do you have a hobby outside of work?” And people were kind of like “Keep it on the down low, but I like to…” you know, whatever their “and” was.

Almost everyone has something. And no one’s talking about it. And so, let’s just blow the doors off and make it a podcast where we all get to share what lights us up and what brings us joy and then other people get to hear it and then realize that they’re the norm. Like the stereotypical professional is somebody that has other dimensions to them besides work. And for too long, the 8% who don’t have a hobby or passion have bullied the 92% of us to believe that we have to act a certain way and you don’t. There’s so many different successful professionals out there that all look and sound totally different than the next. And why are we all trying to be like one thing? And it’s not even a cool thing. It’s super lame. At least be like a cool thing. Bring yourself to work. It’s more than just the authenticness. It’s just what lights you up. Start small. Yeah, that’s how it all started.

Rick: Oh, that’s great.

John: No, I appreciate it, Rick. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? and, yeah, also just taking time to be a part of the show. So, thanks, man.

Rick: Oh, you’re welcome. It’s a pleasure.

John: Everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Rick playing his trombone or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.