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Welcome to Episode 461 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. All the versions go more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and now listening to it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the workplace cultures where they are because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Kenneth Omoruyi. He’s the managing partner of CKO CPAs and Advisors in Houston, Texas, and he was the chair of the Tax Expo Committee, which was a conference I spoke at just last month where we met. He kicked the whole conference off playing the Star-Spangled Banner on his saxophone, and let’s play a little clip right now. It’s so awesome. He was amazing, and I’m so excited that he’s with me here today. Kenneth, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Kenneth: Absolutely, John. Thank you so much. It’s such a privilege to be on the same podcast with you. You are like a celebrity in the accounting world, so being on this podcast is a very big honor. Thank you so much.

John: Oh, you’re too kind, man. You’re too kind. That was awesome, at the beginning of the conference, where we did the word cloud with everybody’s “ands”, and then I saw a saxophone. You had it right there. You were ready to go, and then you kicked off the conference. That had to be the most unique way to kick off the Tax Expo, in the history of all the tax expos.

Kenneth: It was just a very beautiful time to be able to have you onstage as well, and be able to connect with everyone who came to the Tax Expo. It was just a very beautiful time together.

John: Yeah, it was awesome. Just show people there’s more than just tax people here. We have other things too. We had a band within five minutes. All of a sudden there’s a lead singer, lead guitarist, bass guitarist. We had a fiddler, a pianist. I was like, oh, man, this is amazing. Yeah, I have my rapid-fire questions though, get to know Kenneth out of the gate. These are probably things I should ask when we’re hanging out in Houston, but I didn’t. Here we go. Here we go. How about a favorite color?

Kenneth: Navy blue.

John: Navy blue. Solid. I like that. Yeah. How about a least favorite color?

Kenneth: Black.

John: Black. Okay. All right. Yeah, that’s a good answer. How about on a pizza, favorite toppings? You can load it up.

Kenneth: I don’t have any.

John: Oh, really. You don’t like pizza?

Kenneth: I didn’t do a lot of that.

John: Oh, okay. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. All right. How about favorite actor or actress?

Kenneth: A favorite actor would be Denzel Washington.

John: Yeah. How about, oh, this is a tricky one, especially in Houston, more rain or snow?

Kenneth: None of the above.

John: You know what? I’m with you, man. I hate rain so much too. All right, here’s one, cats or dogs.

Kenneth: Dogs.

John: Dogs. Yeah, me too. Yeah. Puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw puzzles.

Kenneth: None of the above.

John: None of them. Actually, Sudoku is how I do my tax returns, I think.

Kenneth: Oh, wow.

John: Which is not a good idea. That’s not good for anybody. How about this one, Star Wars or Star Trek?

Kenneth: Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. Okay, there you go. How about your favorite season, summer, winter, spring or fall?

Kenneth: Fall.

John: Fall. Yeah, me too. I was worried you were going to say none of the above. I was like, wait a minute, that’s all four of them. How about your computer, a PC or a Mac?

Kenneth: PC.

John: PC. Yeah, me too. Do you have a favorite ice cream flavor?

Kenneth: Vanilla.

John: Oh, okay. All right. Straight up vanilla. There you go. That’s classic. How about a favorite day of the week?

Kenneth: Sunday.

John: Sunday. Nice. Okay. There you go. Corporate or individual tax returns.

Kenneth: Individual tax returns.

John: Individual. Okay, there you go. That’s just a silly one. All right, we’ve got four more. More of an early bird or a night owl.

Kenneth: Night owl.

John: Night owl. Okay. All right. I figured with the kids, they’d wake you up early.

Kenneth: Absolutely.

John: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you’re like, I’d rather be up late. How about a favorite number?

Kenneth: Ten.

John: Ten. Is there a reason?

Kenneth: Most of the people outside the US, soccer is the biggest sports outside the US.

John: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Kenneth: As a foreign-trained accountant who studied in Nigeria, we have this soccer player who always wears number 10. His name is Jay-Jay Okocha, and that was our favorite soccer player. I just got to like the number ten from him.

John: Yeah. He played forward for Nigeria, right?

Kenneth: Oh, you know him?

John: Yeah, absolutely, man. Dude, he was big.

Kenneth: That is crazy. I would never have imagined that you know him.

John: Yeah. No, no, I went to the World Cup in ‘94 when it was here in the US.

Kenneth: You saw it?

John: In Soldier Field, yes, saw Germany and Spain.

Kenneth: That is so cool, John.

John: No, absolutely. I was like, look at that. There you go. Yeah, ten in soccer is legendary. Absolutely. There you go. When it comes to books, do you like the audio version, an e-book or the real book?

Kenneth: I’m an audio guy because I listen to sound a lot. I’m just an audio person. I consume audio a lot.

John: That makes sense. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Kenneth: That’ll be my faith.

John: Oh, nice. There you go. Very cool. Yeah, so let’s talk about playing the saxophone and getting into that. How did you get started? Was it from when you were a little kid?

Kenneth: My story or my journey into the saxophone world is very interesting. I will quickly just wrap up like this. I graduated from a college in Nigeria, but while I was in high school in Nigeria, each time we were coming back from high school with a group of friends, there was this house right at the entrance of the street that we always heard a saxophone sound coming from, each time we walked past that house, in the middle of day. We would always just stand by to listen to the beautiful sound coming from this house.

One day I decided to stay there, way, way longer after the sound stopped. What I was waiting for was actually to see the person who was playing the saxophone. A few maybe minutes later, maybe half an hour later, he walked out, and I approached him. I told him how beautiful he played the saxophone. I love the sound, and I would like to play the saxophone. I was 15 then, and I told him I wanted to learn how to play the saxophone. The rest is history because he took me just like his son. We later found out that we both share the same birthday, August 9.

John: Oh, wow.

Kenneth: It was such an interesting connection between us. He later became my mentor who taught me the saxophone.

John: That’s crazy awesome, man. That is so cool. You’re like, I love that sound, I want to be able to do that, and then you just learned. Were you taking lessons? Or was it learn on your own or watching some YouTube? What was it?

Kenneth: Oh, I promise you there was no YouTube then. This was 1998.

John: Oh, okay, okay. All right.

Kenneth: I had to learn under him, one-on-one. This guy was a musician. If you heard about a musician in Nigeria called Fela, he is a very popular musician. At some point, he played for Fela as a saxophonist.

John: Oh, wow.

Kenneth: Yes. He relocated to the state where I was a student in high school. I think it was just destiny that made us cross paths.

John: Right.

Kenneth: I learned directly under him. He taught me one-on-one. I used to come to his house after school. He would give me some exercises, and I’d go back home and get to play. What I quickly want to add is that before we got into that arrangement where he taught me one-on-one, I had to pay for it, and I couldn’t afford it. I told him that whatever amount he was charging back then, I wasn’t able to afford it. He told me, “Do you attend church?” I said yes. Why don’t you talk to your pastor and have them pay for you. Then when you’re done learning, you can then play for the church. I approached my church, and the pastor was very, very generous enough, sponsoring my saxophone lessons. The church paid for my saxophone learning. I started playing saxophone, and I’ve always played my saxophone in the church.

John: That’s very cool, man. That’s awesome. Yeah, and just always learning and always practicing. Do you have any stories that come to mind of really cool performances that you’ve, I mean, besides the Tax Expo, but other ones that just come to mind that were really fun?

Kenneth: Yeah, trust me, a lot of times. I’ve been playing saxophone now for about 22 years, and I can’t even imagine how many stories that I can recall. One very, very striking one was a student, while I was in college, because I started playing in high school, when I went to college back in Nigeria, I had this student that walked up to me after an event. We had a very, very massive event in my college where I played the saxophone. This guy walked up to me in class, not even after the event, we met in class the next day, and he told me that, I see you every day in class. I had no idea that you were a saxophonist. Then I came to an event, and I saw you play. I used to be a very serious student, but I just feel like I want to give my life more meaning by becoming more inspiring or more inspirational, like what I saw you doing, and I want to learn the saxophone. He went on to learn the saxophone, and he became a saxophonist as well.

John: Oh, wow. That’s so cool, how you were able to pay it forward sort of a thing, and inspire someone else to want to play.

Kenneth: Exactly.

John: Wow. That’s cool, man. That’s really cool, just to be able to make a difference in someone’s life just by sharing your passion and your joy for playing.

Kenneth: Absolutely. Another quick one I will also share was a medical student who was just getting into medical school, walked up to me in school, and said, “Hey, I heard you taught somebody the saxophone. I heard him play, and I approached him and asked him how he learned. He told me, you taught him how to play the saxophone. Can you teach me how you taught him how to play the saxophone?” I said, yes, absolutely, if you’re ready to learn. Mind you, when I teach people the saxophone, I never take money from them because I felt like if I was invested, the church invested in me to learn the saxophone, I should freely give it to other people. I eventually taught him how to play the saxophone, and trust me, he’s been one of the best students of all the, I can’t even count at this moment how many people whom I’ve taught the saxophone. He is doing extremely well. He’s a saxophonist. He’s a medical doctor. He’s a saxophonist. He’s in Switzerland practicing. Anytime I hear him play, I feel very, very grateful that he was one of my students.

John: That’s so good, man. You’re such a better person. Because if people were like, can you tell me how to tell jokes; I’m like, no, I’m not going to teach you how to do that because you’re not going to be good. I’m going to get very annoyed because you’re going to tell the whole joke, and then you’re going to forget the last punch line, and then I’m going to get angry. That’s so cool, how you’ve just taught all these different people who, it’s their “and”, if you will. It’s their “and”. They’re doctors and other students. They’re not professional musicians. They’re just people that want to do this on the side as a passion. That’s really cool, man, how they sensed that out of you. That’s awesome. Do you feel like, whether it’s playing the saxophone or practicing or it’s teaching others, that, that gives you a skill that you bring to the tax accounting world or as a managing partner?

Kenneth: I just feel it’s the connection you get. Whether you’re an accountant or you’re a musician or whatever profession that you operate, you connect with people. It’s about the people, your ability to be able to connect with people. I can guarantee you there are some people who will connect more with you, just knowing that you’re a saxophonist, than just telling them that you’re a CPA. The fact that we are able to connect with people at different levels, if you see me probably in church or maybe at an event, playing, I can guarantee you have no idea that I have anything to do with accounting.

John: Yeah. Right.

Kenneth: Being able to connect with people, I think, that’s just like my biggest bill.

John: Yeah. Do you find that it’s easier to connect over these hobbies and passions versus connecting over strictly work?

Kenneth: I guarantee you, yes. At the snap of a finger, I can easily tell you that people connect with me more when I relate with them as a saxophonist than as a CPA.

John: Absolutely. I totally agree. It’s cool to hear that I’m not crazy, that even out in the real world, that’s what’s happening. Is this something that your coworkers and even clients know about, the music side of you?

Kenneth: Not a lot of them do, unless maybe they really want to know about me and then go to my company’s website, and then they see it there. Outside of work, a couple of people who see me in church, because I play in church from time to time, but some of my coworkers or some of my employees and some of my client, when we have lunch and when we have events, I bring the saxophone. I always have the saxophone with me. I have it in my car. I’m ready to pull it out any time.

John: You never know. Right?

Kenneth: Yes.

John: You never know. No, I love it, man. It’s so great, and I love how you said on your website, on the company website, how you have it there as well. Was there a part of you that was like, ah, maybe people are going to think I’m not very good at accounting if I have it on there?

Kenneth: I promise you, if anyone is going to think about me as not being a good accountant for playing saxophone, I don’t know if I want to engage really with. Just think about it, music is mathematics on its own. If you play music, chances are that, well, research, that you have very good cognitive ability with numbers. I think that it actually has helped me with my numbers in the instrument, and my field as an accountant as well. Yeah, I’ve never had any form of second thought or thinking differently if I introduced myself as a saxophonist and as an accountant, never.

John: No, good for you because so many times, from interviewing so many different people, it’s these lies that we tell ourselves in our own head. It’s like, I would bet almost everyone that sees that thinks it’s cool. They’re like, what? Tell me about this. You’re like, well, I happen to have it in my back pocket. What do you want to hear? Here you go. I love the style. You bring some jazz flavor to it as well. Is that more your style?

Kenneth: Oh, yeah. Interestingly, though, the fact that I’ve been playing for about 22 years, a lot of people, when they hear me, when I tell them I’m a saxophonist, their expectation is that I’m extremely good. I don’t consider myself as extremely good saxophonist. I just consider myself as a saxophone player. Why I say that is because I’ve heard some really, really crazy saxophonists nowadays.

John: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There’s always someone better, even to them. They’re like, yeah, but this person. There’s always one that’s better than you.

Kenneth: Exactly, especially as somebody who is now, well, in the US, I came from Nigeria, and all of the world greats, as far as saxophone is concerned, for the most part, they live in the US. I have been at events with Kirk Whalum, Gerald Albright, Kenny G. These are guys whose names are forever ingrained in the Hall of Fame of the saxophone world, so I can never tell them that I am a very good saxophonist.

John: But you play the saxophone the same as they play the saxophone. You both play the saxophone. I think that that’s the thing is when it comes to your “and,” if I were to ask Kenny G, how he does his tax returns, I bet they’re not as good as yours.

Kenneth: Thank you. You’re so kind. Do you know, by the way, that Kenny G is an accountant? He’s actually an accountant. Do you know that?

John: Oh, I didn’t know that he had an accounting background. Well, he’s still not good at taxes. He’s probably like me where I don’t know how taxes work either. If you were to change the phrase to just, I enjoy playing the saxophone, well, then you don’t have to be the world’s greatest. I’ve heard you play, and you’re really fantastic, man. Don’t diminish yourself. We can always tell ourselves something that’s not healthy. If you just say, I enjoy playing the saxophone, then no one’s going to say, are you any good, because it doesn’t matter. Kenneth is doing it because Kenneth enjoys it, and that’s it.

Kenneth: Thank you so much. I’m really grateful, to really speak to that, I’m grateful that I still play the saxophone because when I think about my journey or my trajectory, coming to the US and all what I’ve had to go through and trying to get very assimilated into the system and then still being a professional, you know the accounting profession is very demanding, especially if you’re in the tax world. I’m a tax accountant. The fact that I still play the saxophone at all, I’m really, really grateful for that, that I still have time.

John: Yeah, man. No, it’s awesome because it’s such a testament to how it’s really is a passion, and you’re intentional about making time to do that. The tax returns are going to get done. I don’t need to make time to do them. They’re going to happen.

Kenneth: Yes.

John: I need to make time for playing the saxophone. It brings me joy. I would imagine, if I told you, you can’t play the saxophone again, you’re going to fight me.

Kenneth: Right.

John: If I told you, you could never do another tax return again, you’re like, oh, we’ll figure something out. I’m going to be all right.

Kenneth: We can automate some software to do the tax return. We can’t automate a saxophonist to play the saxophone.

John: That’s an excellent point right there. Yeah, you can never automate your “and”. That’s for sure, man. I love it. How much do you think it’s on, I mean, as a managing partner, if you find out that the people at the firm have an “and”, how much is it on the managing partner and the leadership to encourage people to have these outside-of-work hobbies? Or how much is it on the individual to just do it?

Kenneth: For me, I talk to my people a lot, and we connect better, especially when we have lunch. We all go out. My firm is a firm of plus or minus nine people. We’re not very big, and so we connect. Outside, one of us is a singer, sings, and then the other one, one of partners of the firm, he runs. He’s into running. I just feel that it’s a way to be able to express ourselves differently from the accounting world. There’s life outside of accounting. Accounting is not the beginning and the ending. Outside of accounting, there’s life. Because the truth is, the more you know what people do outside of accounting, the more you know them better as professionals, then you can connect with them differently, not just as an accountant.

John: Yeah, and as people, you hired the whole person, not just the accounting part of them, so, knowing these other parts. I love that there’s life outside of work. To act like there isn’t or to deny that, no, no, no, no, it’s all work; it’s like, shut up. You’re lying. If it is, then you’ve got some problems. We need to talk because that’s not healthy. That’s not healthy at all. I love it, man. What a great example for everybody listening of just, how to care about your people. There is life outside and find out what that is. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that has an “and”, and they feel like no one’s going to care because it has nothing to do with my job?

Kenneth: I will just say, to make sure that you live your life. They are gifts, and they are talents that I don’t personally believe that there is one person who doesn’t have an “and”. We all have an “and”. Some of us are just maybe very, very cautious or careful to not really express your “and”, but guess what, we only have one life to live. The earlier you express yourself and be yourself, be able to be as authentic as possible anywhere you find yourself, I think the better you find peace and live the life you should live.

John: Yeah. No, I love it, man. That’s so great, Kenneth. Thank you, man. I feel like it’s only fair though, before we do wrap this up, that I turn the tables, since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning. We make this the first episode of the Kenneth Omoruyi podcast. Thanks for having me on as a guest. I appreciate it. Whatever questions you want to ask, I’m all yours.

Kenneth: Absolutely. I remember the first time I met you at the Houston event. My mind was really, really elevated because I’ve never had an accounting event that fun in my life.

John: Oh. Well, thanks, man. Yeah.

Kenneth: I’ll ask you these questions. One of the questions is, when you transitioned out of the accounting world, as it were, I mean, you still connect, you’re still going to be an accountant, when you transitioned out, what was your biggest challenge during that transitional period?

John: Yeah. That’s a great question. I had a unique set of circumstances where it allowed me to turn my “and” and to give it a go as a profession. I’m very cautious to encourage anyone to do that because it is scary hard. It is scary. Let’s be honest, most people aren’t that good at their “and” to make it a profession. That’s why keep it on the side. It’s totally cool on the side. I just happen to have a set of circumstances where I had a new manager come in who wasn’t great, and I was going to leave anyway. I was like, well, if I’m leaving, I might as well give it a go and see what happens.

Kenneth: Wow.

John: The hardest part, I think, is, when your “and” becomes your profession, is you have to have another “and”. You still have to have something else, outside of that. Also, too, when you run your own business, which is basically what I do, it’s hard to turn off your brain. You have to turn it off at some point. You have to be like, I’m done for the day, or I’m done for the weekend, and that’s it. You certainly have to turn it off. When you’re especially new, I was the product, I’m also the CEO, I’m also the secretary, I’m also the janitor, I’m all of the things, but especially when you’re also the product, that’s hard because when people say no, they’re saying no to you as a person. It’s a little bit harsh. It was really setting boundaries, I guess, was the hardest part and then just having the courage to just run as fast as you can.

Kenneth: Thank you so much for sharing that, John. I think you’ve shown a lot of courage by venturing out into your “and”. You turned your “and” to become a profession that is now really, really encouraging people who are thinking of branching out and focusing on their “and” as well. Thank you for sharing that. I think one last question I’ll probably have a for you is that, when you come across other CPAs, other accountants, I’m sure you run into them from time to time, what’s the reaction when you tell them you used to be a CPA before and then now this is, how do you —

John: The reaction is, are you crazy? What are you doing out? Because I’m not in outer space, there’s no up or down or steady paycheck or benefits, especially someone like me, the profession, risk-averse. I’m taking a massive risk. I think the coolest is just when I tell them what I do and a little bit of the story behind it, I think it opens them up to share their “and”, and also to see that what they thought they had to be or what the people around them are, is not true. There’s fascinating people all around us. Like at the beginning of the Tax Expo when we did that word cloud where people could anonymously put in their “ands”, and it created that cool word cloud on the screen, and then all of a sudden, we had a band. No one knew that, walking into the beginning of a conference. I think it just shows them that they’re not alone in having an “and”, they’re actually in the majority, and to find out what those are because they’re cool.

Kenneth: I want to tell you, John, thank you so much, because your story is so inspiring, even to the accounting world. So many CPAs, so many accountants that, I tell you, will be encouraged by just hearing your story. We need to put your story more out there so that more people can live the best lives that they are meant to live.

John: Well, that’s why I’m on the Kenneth Omoruyi podcast. Thanks, man. I appreciate you having me. No, but this has been so much fun, Kenneth. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? You’re awesome.

Kenneth: Absolutely. Thank you, John.

John: Yeah, and everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Kenneth playing or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 459 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. Thank you so much to everyone who’s writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the work cultures where they are because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Jessica E. McClain. She’s the CFO of the Girl Scouts Council of the Nation’s Capital, obviously, in Washington DC, and a recipient of the AICPA Outstanding Young CPA Award, and now she’s with me here today. Jessica, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Jessica: Thank you so much for having me, John. Excited, excited to be here.

John: Oh, ditto. This is going to be so much fun, so much fun. I have some rapid-fire questions, get to know Jessica out of the gate here. I’ll start you out with maybe an easy one. Favorite color.

Jessica: Blue. That’s the color of my Tesla, blue.

John: There you go. Yeah, I’m a huge blue fan. How about least favorite color?

Jessica: Oh, gosh, I hate brown, just looks dirty.

John: Right? I feel like brown’s only there to make the color look better. How about heels or flats?

Jessica: Pre-children, I wore heels all the time. Between post-children and working from home, it’s become flex.

John: Right. I hear you. That totally makes sense. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Jessica: Favorite actress is Jennifer Lewis.

John: Oh, yeah, good answer. Very good. How about chocolate or vanilla?

Jessica: Oh, gosh. Can I mix it and make cookies and cream a little bit?

John: Okay. Okay. There you go. I like that answer. There you go. You even took it to the ice cream level. I love it. I love it. That’s so perfect, so perfect. How about a favorite day of the week?

Jessica: Saturday because least you know the day behind you, the workweek was over, and you still have another day ahead of you for the weekend.

John: There you go. There you go. It’s a free one. Catch your breath. I like it. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw?

Jessica: Sudoku, absolutely.

John: Sudoku. Nice. Okay, that’s the accountant in you going strong.

Jessica: Yes.

John: That’s awesome. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Jessica: Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. Yes, me too. Just growing up, that’s all I did. Your computer is more of a PC or a Mac.

Jessica: PC all the way.

John: Yeah, exactly. I don’t even know how Macs work. I’m not going to lie.

Jessica: Same here.

John: On your mouse, do you right click or left click?

Jessica: I’m a left clicker.

John: Left click, making decisions. Just boom, let’s do this. All right. All right. How about a favorite Disney character?

Jessica: Wow. Oh, man, you’re taking it back. I have to say I love Minnie Mouse. It’s great because my daughter wants to be Minnie Mouse for Halloween this year, so that’s great.

John: Yeah, just classic. That’s the classic. I love it. How about more talk or text?

Jessica: More text.

John: Text.

Jessica: I’m a texter. Yes, I am. With kids in the background and noise, I can’t always say I’m available to talk.

John: That’s an interesting point. Oh, this is a fun one, balance sheet or income statement.

Jessica: I’ve got to say balance sheet. I’ve got to know where we are or how we ended.

John: Oh, okay. All right. I like balance sheet too, because then you know you’re right or not because it balances. It’s like, something’s off. That’s for sure. Just put in goodwill, whatever, we’re done, which is why I’m not an accountant anymore. There we go. All right, we’ve got four more, four more. How about your first concert?

Jessica: A boy band called Immature, back in the early ‘90s.

John: Oh, wow. Okay. All right.

Jessica: Wow.

John: I love it. That’s all good. Now I’m going to have to look them up. I hadn’t heard of them. That’s going to be awesome. How about a favorite number?

Jessica: Number seven, lucky number seven. Born in July, so, number seven.

John: There you go. That’s the reason. All right, how about books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Jessica: I need a real book. I want to feel the pages, feel the cover. That’s me. I can’t do the electronic stuff.

John: Nice. Yeah, yeah. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Jessica: The favorite thing I have, I still have the dog collar of my childhood pet.

John: Oh.

Jessica: Yes. Her name was bear. We got her when I was four. We put her down when I was 20.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Jessica: Yes, she lived to be 16. She was completely a part of my family, had been there my entire, from a child to adult.

John: Yeah, forever.

Jessica: That was almost 20 years ago, and she is still missed.

John: Oh, wow, that is awesome. So cool. So cool. Yeah, but let’s talk bodybuilding. How do you get started doing that? That is so cool. How did you get started?

Jessica: I have to thank my mother for this one.

John: Okay.

Jessica: She was a few years from turning 50, and she set this goal on her bucket list of, I want to compete in a bodybuilding competition. I’m like, what in the world? Okay, mom. She went out. She hired a personal trainer, she changed her diet, everything. It took a few years to really get into shape for it. Until I competed, I had no clue how much work it was. She did, in 2010, when she turned 50, she did her first competition.

John: That’s awesome.

Jessica: For two years, she tried to convince me to do it, and I would not budge. All I could think about was all the things I would be giving up, my sweets, my junk food, my free time, my wine. For two years, I was actually, no, Ma, nope, nope. This is you. Have fun. Great job. I’ll come to the shows and support you, but I’m not doing it. Then in 2012, she finally somehow convinced me to join the competitive world of bodybuilding. I did my first show about a year and a half later, and was hooked after that.

John: That is amazing. Was it there in DC?

Jessica: Yeah, in the DC area. Yes, it was here. Yes, it was.

John: That’s incredible. I guess, when you sign up, it’s, I mean, you’ve done the training, so it’s it’s just go time. Really the hard work is before you even sign up, I would imagine.

Jessica: Oh, my goodness. Yes, yes, yes. A lot of hard work.

John: Right. I’m exhausted just thinking about, I mean, just the diet alone is like, no. Then there’s going to the gym and the training and the weights and all of the stuff that I don’t even know anything about. I’m literally like, this is awesome. No, it’s very impressive, but when you’re out there, like that first competition, what was going through your mind? Is it just that I’ve done the work and let’s do this?

Jessica: That’s part of it. You get to a point where you say, I did it. I had to become a gym rat. I was going to the gym, five or six days a week, eating the same food every day for two weeks.

John: Oh, wow.

Jessica: The same meals every day. When you get to the show, it’s all of the hard work I’ve put in for months, because it takes some months to compete. You don’t go out, work out for a month and then say, let’s go compete. No, no, no. It can take some time to do that, and so when you get there, it’s to know that I made it, and I did it, no matter what the results are. That’s a big enough accomplishment in itself is just being able to enter yourself into a competition with all the training and hard work you put in.

John: Yeah. No, it’s the same as doing stand-up comedy, which was my “and”. People are like, well, what were you thinking when you were onstage? I was thinking that they’re going to say my name, so I have to go up. I can’t not go up. The scary part was when I put my name on the list.

Jessica: There you go.

John: After that, we’re on the slide. We’ve got to go down. Here we go. No matter what, you had the guts to do it. You were successful, and it was awesome. I love it. It’s so cool and such a neat story. Also, how much it inspired your husband and people around you as well is also kind of cool, if you want to share a little bit of that.

Jessica: Sure, sure. When my husband met me, I was in the middle of competing, and it forced him, basically, to change his health habits, working out, eating better. He lost a lot of weight. It’s something that we’re talking about doing together in a couple of years, once I get past having my children, get back into the gym, full time. We’re definitely talking about competing and doing a show together in the future. It’s great because some of the biggest benefits are your health, and it’s one of the big reasons my mother wanted to do it. She was just afraid of getting older. She said, “I have to live a long life to see my grandchildren.” You’re so much better for it, with the dieting and the exercise that comes along with the training.

John: No, that’s awesome. If I were you, I would have told my mom, I’ll wait ‘till I’m 50. I’ll see you later.

Jessica: I might have told her that in the beginning.

John: Right. Just in case she’s listening and wants to hunt me down, I’m just joking. I’m just joking. She’s going to get me into this now. Was there like a cooler moment or experience or one of the competitions that you’ve done that were just the most memorable?

Jessica: Yes, yes, yes. I had the opportunity to compete in a show with Ernestine Shepherd. She was declared by the Guinness Book of World Records to be the oldest competitive female bodybuilder in 2010.

John: Oh, wow.

Jessica: It was so amazing to meet her, to see someone at the time who was already in her 70s, competing. I’m like, wow, if she could do it, there’s no reason why I can’t do it. Even now in her mid-80s, she still continues to teach exercise classes in Baltimore where she lives.

John: That’s so cool. Yeah, what a story. That’s impressive. I feel super lazy right now.

Jessica: I know.

John: It’s all good. Does anything translate from bodybuilding, to, is there a skill that you feel like you bring to the office at all?

Jessica: What I gained the most from competing was patience. It takes a lot of patience to work out five or six days a week, to eat the same food every day, to do all of that and wait to see the progress, physically. Because that’s what you’re looking for is, my abs are tighter, my arms look stronger. I had to be really patient with myself because I’ve worked very hard in everything that I do, and I always expect to see results. At times, you could hit a plateau, and you aren’t seeing those results. It’s like, okay, Jessica, no need to change up my workout routine, don’t need to change my diet. That was hard times for me to go in, day in and day out, and look in the mirror a couple of weeks on in and not see a change. It definitely taught me patience. I would say, the second thing after that, I think my children have taught me patience as well. I think that was preempting me.

John: Preparing you for motherhood.

Jessica: Yes, it was. It was.

John: Also, just probably, just don’t be so hard on yourself.

Jessica: Yes.

John: It’s hard to remember rather how far you’ve come, as opposed to, well, I need this last 10%. It’s like, yeah, but 90% the way there, let’s not forget that part. You still strive for that extra 10, but don’t bring the hammer on yourself so hard. It’s impressive. I remember when I went to college, and you’re living around the football players and athletes. I didn’t know that triceps were literally three muscles. It makes sense because it’s the name, but I never saw it. Then you’re waiting for the shower next to a defensive end, and you’re like, holy crap, there are three individual muscles right there. That’s amazing. It was hilarious. That was Melvin Dansby, great guy.

Jessica: I learned a lot about body physiology, a lot of that, more than I ever thought.

John: Yeah, yeah. It’s impressive. Yeah, you want to see all that, and you want to see all the gains. Every day, it’s hard to see that sometimes. I imagine, probably, just if you could just take a snapshot and remember where you came from.

Jessica: Absolutely.

John: That’s impressive. I love that. Patience, for sure. Is this something that you talked about at work at all? Or did it come up?

Jessica: I actually did talk about it at work because I needed all the support I could get.

John: Right. Right. We’re not going out for pizza.

Jessica: Bodybuilding, the training and everything is 80% mental and 20% physical, so I needed all the support. My coworkers were a part of my accountability team. They would make sure I was drinking that gallon of water I needed to drink every day. They would make sure I wasn’t sneaking and trying to eat food I shouldn’t be eating. Or when I went out to lunch and had to order the healthy food or eat salmon and broccoli heated up in the microwave. They knew and understood why I was doing it. I definitely needed them, and I really appreciate all the help that they gave me during that time.

John: That’s hilarious, the salmon and broccoli in the microwave. It’s like those are two of the worst.

Jessica: They understood Jessica’s competing soon.

John: Yeah, go to a different floor and go microwave up there. Don’t use our kitchen. No, but that’s so great. Did it ever cross your mind, like, I don’t know, are they going to judge me, or are they going to whatever? Or were you like, no, this is me, take it or leave it?

Jessica: It was actually just me. I just opened up one day. I think people started to notice things differently. They’re like, well, why are you eating this? Or why haven’t you gone out for happy hour with us? When I told them, they were like, wow, that is so cool. That is awesome. I want to know how it’s going. It just came out when they just started to notice some of the changes in my habits. It was great. It was so great.

John: Well, it’s so cool to hear that there are follow-up questions, and they want to know more. They want to be a part of the journey. I feel like so many times in our own heads, we create these stories of, I don’t know, it has nothing to do with my job. It doesn’t matter for accounting. It really creates those connections and makes people care about each other.

Jessica: Yes, absolutely.

John: Which it is so cool to hear that you got to experience that. That’s so awesome. Did you ever get any of your coworkers into the exercising more or anything? Or were they more like, yeah, live vicariously through Jessica, we’re good?

Jessica: I would say a bit of both. I did meet others that I had no clue who were into physical fitness just like me and so, in sharing, I had better, I would say deeper connections with some of my coworkers and colleagues, and built stronger bonds with them because I had no clue they were into rowing or marathons or triathlons. Wow, there are other athletes out here and understood what it meant when, again, I couldn’t do the happy hours, or I couldn’t drink the soda that I love to drink so much. They understood. It definitely strengthened bond and had better relationships with my coworkers at the time.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so cool to hear that it’s like make-believe in my little bubble world. It’s like, no, no, for real, this stuff works, and it’s really not even hard. It’s literally, somebody asked you, why are you eating this weird food? You’re like, because I’m a bodybuilder and I’ve got this competition coming up. All of sudden, magic happens.

Jessica: Yes.

John: There are all these interesting people around you all of a sudden. That’s so cool, so cool. How much do you feel like it’s on an organization to maybe create that space and encourage people to share their “ands”, versus maybe just as an individual amongst their little circle?

Jessica: I will say, before this, as an African American woman in a white male-dominated profession, I didn’t feel as though I could bring that part of me to work. I kept work at work and home at home, but as I mentioned before, by opening up and sharing, I did build those stronger bonds with my colleagues. I would encourage anyone that has that mindset that I used to have, that they should open up. I would also say that COVID and working from home has definitely allowed people to see more of each other, beyond just them as another coworker. We’ve met people’s partners, their kids, their pets, their extended families. We’ve learned people’s favorite happy hour beverages, their favorite dish and hobbies. We’ve definitely become more of a caring society when it came to that. That’s one of the, I will say, the silver linings of COVID, but just having that open, inclusive environment is great for everyone.

John: Yeah, we’ve been in each other’s homes.

Jessica: Yes.

John: You see the picture or the painting on the wall or the something. As we move towards whatever the future of work is for whatever firm or company people are at, the toothpaste is out of the tube. Keep asking about that, about their cat that kept walking across the camera or whatever. Just, what’s up with that? How’s he doing, or how’s she doing, all that stuff. I love that. It really does humanize work. That’s where connections happen, is over the human side of things, not the technical skills side so much. It’s cool to hear that you got to experience that. That’s awesome. Those words of encouragement were also great for people, of just, hey, if you feel like you don’t have anything in common with people, share more dimensions to you because then that increases the odds that you have something in common.

Jessica: Absolutely. Exactly.

John: It’s so cool to hear how that worked for you. If you feel like an outsider, you’re probably not, at the end of the day, because we have so much more in common than we don’t.

Jessica: Yeah, it brings that sense of belonging which is, a lot of us minorities want to feel.

John: Yeah.

Jessica: Definitely, to this day, so glad that I shared that. Sometimes when I bump into people that I’ve known from years ago, doing that, they’d ask me, are you still competing? I say, when I’m done having kids, I definitely plan to get back.

John: That’s so great that people bring that up.

Jessica: Yes.

John: It’s not, oh, are you still a controller, or are you still doing accounting? Nobody asks that question because that’s who you really are, is the bodybuilder, and that’s so much more of who you are. Because if I told you, you could never do bodybuilding again, you’d be like, that sucks. If I were like, you could never do accounting again; you’d be like, well, I’m sure I’ll figure it out. It’ll be all right.

Jessica: Exactly.

John: That gives me more time to do bodybuilding. Awesome.

Jessica: I bought this new, so I need to start really using it now.

John: Right. Right. No, but that’s so cool to hear. So cool to hear. I feel like it’s just such an encouraging story and just how it’s manifested itself to bring you closer to coworkers and to friends and everything, so keep it up. Congratulations on everything. It’s super cool.

Jessica: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

John: Super cool. I feel like it’s only fair that, since I started out the episode, rudely peppering you with questions, that I get to turn the tables, and we’ll have the first episode of the Jessica E. McClain podcast. Thanks for having me as a guest. Whatever questions you want to ask, I’m all yours.

Jessica: All right, I’ve got a couple for you. What is the favorite place you’ve traveled to?

John: Favorite place I’ve traveled. My wife and I went to the Maldives. They’re like sandbars in the middle of the Indian Ocean. I’m pretty sure that, I don’t know, if the wind blew hard, they would just all go underwater, but the Maldives was pretty awesome. Then we stopped in Abu Dhabi and Dubai on the way there. That was pretty cool.

Jessica: You are speaking my language.

John: Right.

Jessica: My husband and I are going to the Maldives next year.

John: Oh, nice.

Jessica: We’ve been in Abu Dhabi, Dubai, back in 2015, so, fellow traveler. I love it.

John: Yeah. No, totally. Just different cultures, different aspects, it’s neat to see, but it also makes you appreciate what you have at home, at the same time. Very cool. That was definitely a pretty awesome trip.

Jessica: All right, I’ve got two more left. Your favorite sport.

John: Favorite sport, easily, well, college football to watch, for sure, and go-to and all of the things. Although, playing, I was more of a soccer player because I’m not a large individual, or fast. I’m a backup punter, basically, is what I am, on the football team, but in soccer, I’m pretty good. I guess those two sports probably.

Jessica: Okay. Okay. The last question I have to ask, again, being the CFO for the Girl Scouts Council of the Nation’s Capital, your favorite Girl Scout cookie.

John: Oh, Thin Mints all day.

Jessica: You know what, John?

John: All day.

Jessica: I knew you were my buddy.

John: Right. Right.

Jessica: I’ve got a box in my refrigerator right now that I shouldn’t eat, but Lord knows I want to eat.

John: Well, in case you need anyone to eat them for you, I’m here for you as part of your support team, Jessica. I will take one for the team and eat all of your Thin Mints. You put them in the freezer? Oh, so good, so good.

Jessica: I just had them in the freezer. I put them in the refrigerator, and I’m trying to tell myself not to eat them.

John: People that put them in their pantry, it’s like, you’re doing it wrong. Don’t you know?

Jessica: Do you know the flavor that comes from it when it has that chill to it?

John: The cold, oh, yeah. Oh, totally, totally. Oh, man, now I’m starving. I’m going to go get some right now. This has been so much fun, Jessica. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”?

Jessica: Thank you for having me. Thank you, thank you, thank you, John.

John: Everyone listening, if you want to see some pictures of Jessica from her competitions or connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 457 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop and a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and now listening to it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Sarah Campbell Arnett. She’s a senior organizational effectiveness consultant with Cone Health in Greensboro, North Carolina, and also an executive coach with Ampersand Box, love it, and now she’s with me here today. Sarah, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Sarah: Thanks. I’m excited.

John: Yeah, me too, anyone who loves ampersands as much as I do. This is going to be awesome. I’m so excited, so excited. I have my rapid-fire questions, get to know Sarah right out of the gate here. You ready? Buckled in?

Sarah: All right, ready.

John: All right, here we go. Favorite day of the week.

Sarah: Saturday.

John: Saturday. Yeah, slam dunk. Exactly. Exactly. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw puzzles?

Sarah: Sudoku.

John: Sudoku. Nice. Yeah, that’s how I used to do my taxes. Just kidding, IRS, just kidding. All right, how about a favorite color?

Sarah: Purple.

John: Purple. Solid.

Sarah: Purple or green.

John: Okay. All right. Very unique. Combinations of the primaries, yeah, next level. I like that. How about a least favorite color?

Sarah: Red.

John: Red. Okay.

Sarah: Always clashes with my red hair.

John: Oh, right. There you go. It is funny. When I ask the colors, it always goes to what looks good on me, clothing-wise.

Sarah: Right.

John: How about diamonds or pearls?

Sarah: Either one. Either one. I do funny jewelry. Usually known for my crazy earrings that have been difficult to wear during COVID masking, but usually I have crazy earrings. I go with either, whichever one you want to send me.

John: Right. There we go. In the earring form, there we go. You’re right with the masks, and especially in the hospital, yeah, it’s hard to wear big earrings because I never even thought about that. All right. How about, do you have a favorite actor or actress?

Sarah: Meryl Streep and Harrison Ford.

John: Oh, yes. Very good. Oh, man, the classics right there. Would you say more chocolate or vanilla?

Sarah: Vanilla because it gives you more options to put stuff on it.

John: Okay, okay. I see where you’re going.

Sarah: Vanilla and something.

John: Right. Now we’re talking. We might just have a new ice cream line coming out now. This is awesome. Because that’s exactly how I look at ice cream, what has more chunks and calories per spoonful. That’s my new favorite. All right, how about books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Sarah: Lately, just with my time, I do a lot of audio books. Walk and listen. Drive and listen. I like real books. I just don’t sit down much.

John: Right. Yeah, yeah. Nowadays, especially. How about, do you have a favorite number?

Sarah: Ten.

John: Ten. Is there a reason?

Sarah: My birthday is 10/10.

John: Oh. Well, there you go.

Sarah: I think we talked about the football that when I was ten years old, the quarterback of the Arkansas Razorbacks was number 10, Bill Montgomery, and they were number one in the country at that point. My middle name is Montgomery, so we were tight. We were tight. He never knew that, but we were tight.

John: He does now. He’s listening. No, I’m just kidding. That’s so good. That’s so good. Would you say more of an early bird or a night owl?

Sarah: Early bird.

John: Early bird. Okay.

Sarah: 4 AM. Yeah.

John: Holy cow.

Sarah: 4:30.

John: 4 AM Eastern, that’s like 2 AM for me. That’s amazing.

Sarah: You’re just going to bed.

John: Right. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Sarah: Star Trek. I watched the originals on TV, just olden days.

John: Right.

Sarah: Harrison Ford was in Star Wars. I saw the first one and then, mm, yeah.

John: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Sarah: I am bilingual, so I do both. At work, I do PC. At home, I do Mac.

John: Okay. All right. All right. Do you have a favorite Disney character?

Sarah: Probably maybe Ariel.

John: Oh, okay.

Sarah: She’s a redhead.

John: Right. You’ve got to stick together. Stick together. There you go. We’ve got four more. How about talk or text?

Sarah: Talk.

John: Talk. All right. Yeah, just gets it done faster. More cats or dogs?

Sarah: Dogs.

John: Dogs. Okay. Yeah, me too. Me too. Cats, I don’t know. I don’t trust them. In case you’re listening, cats, stay away. All right, and since you’re in the organizational effectiveness consultant realm, I’ve got to ask you, strategic or reactive.

Sarah: Strategic is always best. Most of my life is spent cleaning it up on the reactive.

John: Right. Right. I prefer the strategic, so we could take care of it beforehand. I love that. That’s awesome. All right. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Sarah: My daughters got us a great Christmas gift this past Christmas, of 10 square feet of land in Scotland. I am actually Lady Sarah Campbell Arnett of Glenco Wood.

John: Nice. I love it.

Sarah: It comes with a title. You get a little piece of land, and they’re rehabbing the land with plants and animals, which was great. They’re trying to rehab the land. With it, comes a title.

John: That’s very cool. You are the first Lady to be a part of What’s Your “And”? I’m honored. I feel like I should bow or something. I’m not sure how this works. So cool. It actually ties in with your “and” in the genealogy. How did you get started with that?

Sarah: My parents and grandparents have done a lot of genealogy. They’ve written their life stories and written a lot down, so we are very fortunate. I realize not everybody has their genealogy, has that privilege to have that, but we really have written documentation way back to the 1300s on some lines.

John: Wow.

Sarah: It’s been part of just a growing, everybody’s done their part on researching it. My particular interest around my grandfather’s letters really started with the picture that, I’ll show you, the readers can’t see, but this is from Life magazine. That’s my grandfather. He’s at the table of the Japanese surrender at Hong Kong.

John: Holy cow, that is incredible.

Sarah: I was like, why do I have this picture from Life magazine in my house?

John: Right. You got no idea. That’s cool.

Sarah: We didn’t talk about that much when I was a kid. He didn’t talk about it.

John: Yeah, yeah. My grandfather was, yeah, D-Day plus 12, and he didn’t talk a lot about it either. That’s so cool that you came across that and then also the letters as well.

Sarah: Yeah, the letters really came right at the beginning of COVID. I was working at a major project that Cone Health was reformatting our four hospitals. We built ten ORs, neuro ORs, built a whole new women’s tower.

John: Oh, my gosh.

Sarah: We moved the whole hospital. The weekend of the move, and I was integral in this process, really busy, I get a call from my mother’s nursing home, saying, we need to move her this weekend to a higher level of care. She’s got dementia. I had to go run down there and actually just throw things away and throw things in my car. Part of that was this box. It filled up my daughter’s room, so I excavated during COVID and found hundreds of his letters.

John: That’s great that he had written during World War Two.

Sarah: World War Two, mm-hmm.

John: Yeah. I might as well start go through them because I’m home now, a lot.

Sarah: Right, I had a lot of time. I was the only one that can read them. My daughters can’t read. They don’t teach cursive much anymore.

John: Oh, right.

Sarah: He had horrible handwriting, and they were just on this onion paper, thin. I was one of the ones who could read it. I started typing them. I decided I should scan them, for historic purposes, and contacted a museum in Arkansas to see if they wanted them. They did. That’s where they’re probably going to go, for preservation’s sake. I just started typing them and then sending them out to my cousins and brothers and stuff like that.

John: Was there anything that you came across that was like, wow? I don’t know if it’s hard to top the Life magazine picture.

Sarah: Oh, yeah. Well, that was at the end. I actually have started in 1945 because it was the anniversary. When I was doing it, I was doing it by the month that these things were happening. It was like, 70 years ago, what was happening? I have found out that in one of the last ones, when he was flying home, he put these postcards — well, he hitched a ride on a plane with Archbishop Wellman who happened to be going back to America via Rome. He hopped a plane with him, and they arrived, this is on the postcard, arrived to take a group of us to the Vatican. A Father George, classmate of Kelly’s, a friend of his, took us to St. Peter’s, and then we had an audience with Pope Pius the 12th.

John: What? Holy cow, that’s incredible. Yeah, your grandpa might have been Forrest Gump. He just stumbles into everything amazing.

Sarah: Then, as I’m typing stuff, I’m like, am I reading it right? I Googled the person to make sure I got the spelling of the name and then read their history. One of his superiors, he was great nephew of Mark Twain.

John: Wow. Okay.

Sarah: He had met Mark Twain, grown up with Mark, and my grandfather knew him. The Doolittle Raid survivors, he met at dinner, and I ended up calling one of the survivors’ son. You don’t know me, but 70 years ago, your father and my grandfather were having dinner.

John: It is so cool, back in the day, with the letters and all that being documented in their handwriting. There’s some richness to that, which is great, which we lose in typing and emails. Although, then everyone could read it if it’s typed. That’s really rich and got to be cool. You’re touching something that he touched. That’s really cool. That’s awesome. Do you feel like any of this translates over to your work at all? Does it give you a skill set, maybe, that you’re able to bring to work, or a mindset?

Sarah: Yeah, I think it’s just so important at work, particularly for healthcare workers. All we’re dealing with is COVID. We are just steeped in it. We’re burned out with it. It’s going on two years of it. I think we need to be talking about what inspires us and what brings us joy. It was part of our cultural transformation, when we did that work, is to bring an item that inspires you to remind yourself that you’re not just about work, you’re more than that. I often connect with other, we have a lot of veterans at work because North Carolina, there’s a lot of veterans. We have a lot of veterans as workers, so, just connecting. Oh, I’m exploring my grandfather’s letters. It gives me a place of connection, but it lights me up and brings me joy, talking about it, and it’s infectious.

John: Yeah. I love that idea of just bringing something small that brings you joy, to have in your office or in your cubicle or on your lanyard or something, so then it just reminds you that it’s not all coming down on you, type of thing. There’s something out there that, oh, yeah, I do like this, and everything. It’s such a simple thing.

Sarah: I think it’s a great way to connect to patients. Because we see sick people in beds and we never see, oh, you were a general? You were a CEO of a company? You did this? You did that? They have “ands” too. We see them at their worst place sometimes, their scaredest place, and there’s so much more than that.

John: That’s so true. It’s so cool to hear that it’s the connection point as well. It humanizes you. It’s coworkers, but it’s also patients which are clients, in the end. That’s so cool to hear. How much do you feel like it’s on an organization to, it sounds like Cone Health’s encouraging people to bring something in, or to create that space and find out the “ands” and celebrate them? Or how much is it on the individual to just start amongst the little small circle of their peers?

Sarah: I’d say it’s a little of both. I think you have to have a culture of okayness, and that’s set by senior leaders. I think we’ve done a lot of sharing and openness and talking about holistic, so we are fortunate to have that kind of culture and atmosphere. You can do pockets of it, wherever you started, spreading and saying, let’s do this, let’s do this, with nurse retention planning and other kind of things. How can we connect people to that inspiration point, the passion point?

John: Right, and also recognize that the passion point isn’t necessarily more work for most people. I think that that’s the hardest part, is for people to admit that, hey, work isn’t necessarily, I mean, it’s one of my passions, or I enjoy it, and I’m good at it; but the thing that really, really, really lights me up is this, this genealogy or something else. It’s cool that organizations like Cone Health are recognizing that and are like, hey, let’s shine a light on the other stuff, too, because that’s cool, and it creates a better work environment for you and the patients.

Sarah: Absolutely.

John: Which is huge. I talk to some people, and they’re afraid to share because people are going to judge me as being not very good at my job or whatever lies we tell ourselves. Was there ever a point where you were like, hey, maybe I shouldn’t share this, or some of the other dimensions to you? Because I know you’re like a 12-sided dice over there, with all kinds of “ands” and sides, which is awesome.

Sarah: With my first career at Cone Health, I was a dance movement therapist. I worked clinically as a psychotherapist in behavioral health, and then I moved over to organizational development. I remember people thinking, what? You’re doing what now? So, I just didn’t mention the dance therapy, but they’re same skills. It’s group work. It’s trust-building. It’s helping people solve problems. To me, it wasn’t a huge leap. Sometimes I didn’t bring it up, but then I’m just finding, maybe I’m getting old, it’s all important. I learn lessons from every place. To discount any of that just diminishes yourself, I think.

John: Oh, wow, that’s so powerful right there. You’re right. Because those are both at work, at Cone Health examples, but all the other “ands” as well, it is all important, like you said. There’s something that you get from it.

Sarah: Actually, one of the other “ands” I have is photography and traveling, which I share with my grandfather now. Again, you’ll be able to see this, but I have pictures, all pictures all over the place.

John: Those are awesome.

Sarah: I make photo cards out of them and send them as Christmas gifts. It’s my sort of photo journal. I even have a picture my daughter’s inherited. She’s a fabulous photographer too. My grandfather and my daughter and I have all shot Multnomah Falls. Do you know that, outside Portland?

John: Yeah, yeah. Right.

Sarah: On the back side of Mount Hood?

John: Exactly. Yeah.

Sarah: We all have the same picture, 100 years spread.

John: That’s pretty cool.

Sarah: Black and white to color to digital.

John: Right. Probably the black and white one looks the best. That’s the thing about it.

Sarah: All of that, and I have that in my office. People, are like, oh. It brings up conversation and stuff. I’m pretty visible with my stuff now, at work.

John: Yeah. It’s neat to hear that just having it on the wall or just having it on your desk or something, as people come in, and then they start talking about it. It’s a conversation-starter. I’m sure you’d rather talk about that, 100 times out of 100, than the other side of reactive planning. Or I guess there’s not planning when you’re reactive, but it’s just all that stuff. That is cool. Do you have any words of advice to anyone listening that feels like they have an “and” that no one’s going to care about, or it has nothing to do with my career?

Sarah: Just share it, talk about it, find those places where — be interested in other people and then they may be interested in you. It’s a great conversation-starter. If you don’t know what to say, it’s like, hey, what do you do outside of work? It’s just a great opening line. Or if you just say what’s your “and”, people get it pretty fast. What else do you do? What else are you interested in? People love talking about themselves.

John: Right. Well, and they light up. You can hear it in their voice and in their eyes. Even if they’re wearing a mask, you can still tell that they’re really alive right now.

Sarah: Absolutely. We need more of that in the world. There’s enough drainage going on.

John: Exactly. No, that’s so true. So true. This has been awesome, Sarah. I love, well, first of all, Ampersand Box is super awesome. Congrats on that. Yeah, and just the work that you’re doing and everything. I feel like it’s only fair though, before we wrap this up, that we turn the tables and make this the Sarah Campbell Arnett podcast. Thanks for having me on. I’m all yours.

Sarah: All right, so here’s an outdoor adventure. Horseshoes or cornhole.

John: Cornhole all day, only because, actually, when I went to high school outside of St. Louis, we had washers. It’s like wooden boxes with a PVC pipe in the middle, and then you play with these three-inch diameter washers, doughnut-looking. You throw those. You get five points in the cup, in the PVC and then three points in the box. The box has carpet on it or something. Yeah, washers but then cornhole.

Sarah: Where’s your favorite place to sit at a football stadium? Because I know you’re a big football —

John: Oh, yeah. I’m very, very, very, very fortunate in that, at Notre Dame, I get to be on the sidelines for games. That is pretty cool because not everyone can do that. You get just a different perspective when it’s right there. You also have to really pay attention because you might get drunk, and then all sudden you’re on sports center for…

Sarah: Look at that guy.

John: Right. Exactly. The hard part is when the ball is on the other end of the field, you’re waiting for the crowd reaction over there. Either the sidelines or probably in the student section, even though I’m way past that. Students are crazy. They’re way into it, and they stand the whole game. They’re cheering. You’re emotionally invested in the game. Yeah, if I could sneak in and just, I don’t know, as a really old grad student.

Sarah: Return to college.

John: Exactly. Exactly.

Sarah: One last one. What’s your next favorite word after and?

John: Oh, okay. Probably cake. Cake is so good. I know you work at a hospital, and I shouldn’t tell you that. You’re like, I think we have our next patient. Cake is pretty awesome. It’s also a fun word to say. I mean, it’s just cake. I mean, it’s got the hard k and syllable. They’re twice actually. From the comedy perspective, that k sound is always funny. Yeah, I don’t even know why I said that, but that’s just what came to mind.

Sarah: I thought it might be ice cream. You could have cake and ice cream and then just provide them all together.

John: For sure. Brownie and ice cream, sundae and ice cream. Maybe that was assumed. I didn’t know cake came by itself. I thought cake with ice cream. Cake without icing? What? Of course, there’s icing and ice cream. That’s awesome. Well, thank you so much, Sarah, for being a part of this. This was super, super fun.

Sarah: Great. I loved it. It was really fun.

John: People listening, if you’d like to see some pictures of Sarah’s “ands” or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 455 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth into the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And?” on Audible or wherever you get your audio books.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Shawn Parikh. He’s the CEO of Entigrity Solutions, providing offshore staffing to accounting firms out of New York City, and was one of the CPA Practice Advisor’s 40 under 40, and now he’s with me here today. Shawn, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Shawn: Hey, John. Hi, how are you? Thank you for inviting me today. Pleasure to be here.

John: Oh, my goodness, this is going to be so awesome. I’m so excited to have you be a part of this.

Shawn: Well, I’m looking forward to it.

John: Yeah, before we get into cricket and tennis though, I have some rapid-fire questions for you here. Get to know Shawn on a new level. Here we go. I’ll start you out with an easy one, I think. How about a favorite color?

Shawn: Well, black.

John: Black. Okay. All right. There you go. How about a least favorite color?

Shawn: There’s nothing like a least favorite, but I black or white is what I like.

John: Okay. All right. All right, that works. Are you more of a suit and tie or jeans and a T-shirt?

Shawn: Jeans and a T-shirt.

John: There you go. There you go. That’s what I thought. How about a favorite day of the week?

Shawn: Mondays.

John: Monday. Okay, all right. There you go. I’ve never gotten Monday before, so that’s a first. How about puzzles, Sudoku puzzle, crossword or jigsaw puzzles?

Shawn: None of them. I’m very bad at all of these. I’m a good math guy, but when it comes to logic, probably I have done miserably.

John: Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. I love it. How about, do you have a favorite actor or actress?

Shawn: Can we name from the Bollywood?

John: Yeah, absolutely. Totally Bollywood, absolutely.

Shawn: Well, I don’t know your viewers might know this. I’m sure there are not many Indian viewers. Of late, I have been watching one of the nice guys called Pankaj Tripathi. He has got a series on Netflix. Maybe you can try and watch one with subtitles maybe.

John: Okay, okay. I love it, man. No, that’s perfect. That’s a perfect answer. Would you prefer more chocolate or vanilla?

Shawn: Vanilla.

John: Vanilla. All right. There you go. How about, this is a good one, when it comes to books, more audio version, e-book or real book?

Shawn: Real book.

John: Real book. Yeah, me too. I’m the same on that.

Shawn: Honestly speaking, the attention span of people is decreasing, so do I, but I do find some time to read books because I think that’s something that goes with me and will go with me.

John: Right. Yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely. Since you have the accounting background, balance sheet or income statement.

Shawn: Both on this. You can’t ask an accountant. You cannot do that.

John: You want the full general ledger. You want everything.

Shawn: Yes.

John: You want the full trial balance.

Shawn: Yes.

John: All right.

Shawn: Just on that, I would like to tell you one thing. Apart from cricket and tennis, I am also, you can say, one of the business analysts, financial analysts, so, of course, income statement, balance sheet, cash flow statement, everything.

John: Everything. All of it. There you go. All right. All right. There you go. Would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

Shawn: A night owl.

John: Night owl. Okay. All right. All right. Do you have a favorite number?

Shawn: Well, nothing like that. Never thought of this, but probably nine, if somebody asks me.

John: Nine. Okay. Nine’s a good number. Absolutely. How about more Star Wars or Star Trek?

Shawn: Star Wars.

John: Star Wars. Yeah, me too, for sure. Your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Shawn: Mac. We are all an Apple family, so, our Macs, our iPads, our phones. We are all family sharing, connected on Apple. Yeah, we are an Apple family.

John: Wow. You’re super cool and stuff. I hope we can be friends. You’re like, if my PC-ness is okay.

Shawn: Well, now probably it’s more like you’re now stuck with what you have started using too, so, yeah, accept the Apple now.

John: Exactly. I’m just lazy, pretty much. How about, do you have a favorite Disney character?

Shawn: Well, because I was born and raised in India, Disney had significant presence in India. There was an Indian version of the title song of DuckTales that I used to sing.

John: Oh, yeah. DuckTales, nice.

Shawn: All those, TaleSpin was there, all those cartoons. Disney has probably a big impact for kids who have been raised in the ‘90s in India, so, yeah, definitely.

John: Yeah. No, that’s awesome. That’s awesome. How about favorite ice cream flavor?

Shawn: Well, I told vanilla.

John: Oh, just vanilla? Okay.

Shawn: Just vanilla, yes.

John: Just vanilla. Okay. All right. Two more. Do you prefer more talk or text?

Shawn: Talk, absolutely. I’m old school.

John: Yeah, I don’t want to go back and forth seven times, all this texting. All right, last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Shawn: The favorite thing I have is probably my daughter.

John: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. Let’s talk cricket, man. How did you get started? I’m guessing, when you grow up in India, you start before you walk.

Shawn: Yeah, yeah.

John: How did you get started playing cricket?

Shawn: Well, I would definitely not know where the starting point was because in India, it is like religion. Everyone plays cricket. Cricket is not just a sport in India. It is like a religion. Just to give you an example, in Entigrity, we have full-year Entigrity Premier League, and I participate in that, wholeheartedly. It brings a different joy. Everybody is so much crazy into watching it. Even if you’re not playing it, you want to track which team is winning it, which team is losing, which person is scoring what, how many wickets are being taken. You can actually relate it to baseball in America. The one who pitches the delivery is called the bowler, and then you have a backer. We call it the batsman, right?

John: Yeah.

Shawn: We call it a game in America. In India, cricket is called a match.

John: A match, yeah.

Shawn: Yeah. The ground is probably three or four times bigger than baseball and a little complicated than baseball. Typically, end up scoring 10, 15, 20 runs in baseball, right?

John: In a good day, yeah.

Shawn: In a good day, yeah. There are different formats in cricket. You have smaller format which is Twenty20. You have midsize format which is probably a 50 over format. Then you have Test match format which goes for five days.

John: Oh, my goodness, five days.

Shawn: Five days.

John: Wow.

Shawn: Yes.

John: That’s like the World Series almost for baseball, where it’s back and forth, back and forth. Is it one game over five days? Or is it five different games?

Shawn: Yes, just one game over five days. Yes.

John: Oh, my goodness. That’s like Monopoly where you just never end play. It just keeps going. That’s impressive, man. That’s awesome. What position do you like to play most in the field?

Shawn: Typically, in baseball, you have that. In cricket, you typically don’t have that position. They ask that, whether you’re a bowler, whether you’re a batsman, whether you are an all-rounder, and someone who stands behind the wicket, behind the batsman, behind the batter is called wicketkeeper. That’s probably designated role in the field. Those are what the roles are. You typically don’t specialize in any role. You have to manage the placement of the field, but it’s not like somebody’s — there are positions, by the way. There’s mid-on and mid-off and covers and forward short legs. There are positions on the ground, but typically, there is no specialization. If you ask me, I have actually got an injury on my left shoulder, so I’m not able to bowl right now. I need to undergo surgery, but typically, I used to bowl. We call it swing bowling. I used to bat a little bit. I’m not very patient.

John: Right. You’re swinging everything.

Shawn: Yeah. I’m very impatient with my batting, so I try to start hitting as I reach the wicket.

John: That’s cool to hear that you’re still playing now. When it’s in season, you’re playing. That’s cool, man. That’s awesome.

Shawn: Well, definitely, the days back when I used to play, it was definitely much more energy, but I’m 36. I’m not that old, but I’m managing to play. As I said, for me, today I have made a little bit of success with my venture, Entigrity, but the real joy of what we are trying to do, I was actually listening to one of the RJs which I love the most, in Ahmedabad city where I am, in western part of India. Darjeeling is one. He was talking about what is our definition of happy. How would you define that you’re happy? One of the situations is this — he actually listed out ten symptoms of, if you are under these ten symptoms, you’re happy; or if you’re these 10 symptoms, you’re not happy. One of the symptoms of being happy was, you’re able to play and enjoy the sport that you love.

John: Yes. That’s what the whole What’s Your “And”? is all about. You get your work done. You get those basic Maslow’s hierarchy things taken care of, and take care of your family and all that. It’s okay, but what brings me joy? What lights you up? It’s playing cricket or playing tennis. That’s awesome, man.

Shawn: Well, tennis, I’ve played tennis, probably in my professional career, early into my late 20s and after that. I liked to play in bits and pieces. The coaching used to happen probably six months, and I leave, and then again, six months and then I leave. I have done the coaching of tennis a little bit, then I started just two and a half months back again. I am really, really grateful that I have been able to start it again. I’ve been continuing and playing it an hour every day. Because I’m not a very gym-going guy.

John: Well, me neither, man. That’s so boring.

Shawn: I would rather prefer to play a competitive sport and enjoy my time, whether it’s individual or team sport, and I probably have that cardio workout, rather than lifting dumbbells.

John: Right. No, no, no, I’m with you, man. I’m with you, totally. As far as the tennis and the cricket, is this something that your colleagues know about, in your career, or your clients know about, that that’s something that you enjoy to do?

Shawn: Let me tell you this, my colleagues, definitely. Not everyone works with me in my circle. Typically you end up working with 20, 30 people in my company. The people who report to me or who work alongside me are 30 people. Most of them know that. Of course, we play cricket together, so they often know that because it’s our office premier league.

John: Oh, okay.

Shawn: Yeah, it’s Entigritive Premier League. We play together, and it is year-round. It is not a seasonal event. Every weekend, it goes. You’re part of a team, and your scores, pointing system, scoring happens. Apart from that, for tennis, most of them know that I play tennis. Client, my team talks to client. I don’t.

John: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.

Shawn: My interaction with client has gotten limited in the last few years.

John: Sure. Now that you’re the CEO, it’s a little different.

Shawn: Well, not that, but from the point of view of operational management. At the end of the day, there are 600 accounting firms that you work with. I’m still connected with some of the old clients, which I closed and I closely work with. I used to travel and I used to meet in person, close clients. I’ve created those special relationships which are going to be with you forever. Yeah.

John: Yeah. That’s where the differentiator is, having a slightly personal relationship that’s like, what’s your “and”? What lights you up? Who are you as a person, type of thing. Do you feel, at all, skills from cricket translate to work, or even tennis? Does any of that transfer over, to make you a better CEO or a better accountant, before that?

Shawn: Definitely with cricket. One thing that I always believe is that it is a team sport, and no individual can contribute. Business is very, very similar. If you are growing, scaling, it cannot be because of just one person. There may be one captain driving the ship, but it has to be the team effort. That is one thing. At the same time, one thing that you will learn is you have to invest in the vision of one guy. Of course, you then co-share the vision. The cricket actually wants you to — you have to make decisions every time. Out of ten, probably two are wrong, but you have to continue to back the team, back the captain, back the vision. That’s what probably cricket sometimes does.

John: That’s cool, man. Yeah. Because so many of these “ands”, you grew up playing cricket, and no one told you, when you went to college and university, that playing cricket is going to make you better at your business job. It clearly does, and it’s a cool thing to accidentally have happen.

Shawn: I think any sport that you play, it makes you a little more competitive, maybe. I don’t know.

John: For sure, especially if you’re a team player, type of thing, too.

Shawn: In an individual sport, you want, not that it’s a negative feeling, but you want to outplay your opponent, basically. That kind of competitiveness definitely translates into your business. Of course, there are health benefits and wellness benefits around it.

John: Yeah. Especially in the last year and a half, you have something to go do. Instead of just sitting at home and the pandemic or whatever, I’m able to look forward to something, whether it’s watching a cricket match, or it’s going and playing cricket or playing tennis or whatever. It’s something that brings you joy. That’s super huge.

Shawn: That’s one of the things. My daughter plays — she’s just six. Okay, I have a six-year-old. She plays tennis.

John: Oh, nice.

Shawn: Of course, at a very primary level. She’s getting coached right now. She has started this last three, four months. She’s also doing skating, roller skate skating. She’s going to participate next month in a state competition. That is something really, really, I’m proud of her. I don’t tell her that much, but, yeah, she’s doing that. I don’t expect her to excel. I just want her to participate because I don’t want to keep any kind of expectation from her. Because as long as they turn out to be good human beings, that’s it. That’s the other thing, is that’s something that they do for themselves.

John: Exactly.

Shawn: I’m happy. She’s liking something, and she’s following, even at six. We are happy.

John: Yeah. No, and I love how involved you are, as well, and it’s something that brings you joy too. It’s something that we were talking about, before we started recording the podcast, but just what is love. I love your vision of that. When we had talked, you said just love is interaction. I love it. How it’s just interaction with your daughter, interaction with your wife, interaction with your family, like you said, and even interaction with coworkers. It’s still loving your coworkers.

Shawn: I wouldn’t want to admit that here. What has happened is, bootstrapping the business and scaling it up has taken a big toll on me in the last three, four years, five years. Now I’m realizing it’s very, very important to have that cordial relationship, outside of just work, work and work. Now I’m trying to get into that zone or get into that relationship. I will admit that I have not been very, very good at informal — I have been talking to them all the time, work and work and work.

John: Right, right. Well, yeah, when you’re building something from the ground up, for sure, that’s so hard, but we need to intentionally make time for those things because they matter. It really makes us better at what we do. It’s just cool to hear that you’re turning that corner, man, and you’re right there. That’s super awesome. Before we wrap this up, do you have any words of encouragement for anyone listening that maybe they like to play cricket or they have an “and” that’s something that seems like it has nothing to do with their job, or they think no one’s going to care? Do you have any words of encouragement?

Shawn: Well, I would say, obviously, in early part of your career, I come from a very, very low middle class family, though, so it is very, very important to secure your family, financially, medically. That first piece is important. Once you have little bit of success, and you’re financially secure, definitely make sure you give time for things you like to do, whether it’s playing tennis, or whether it is interacting with your daughter, or whether it is playing cricket with your colleagues. When you’re not doing that, probably you should be listening to John Garrett’s show, What’s Your “And”?

John: Right. I love it, man. Thanks for the plug. That’s perfect. If you’re “and” is listening to What’s Your “And”? then you’re my new favorite person. That’s exactly it. No, but you’re so right. Once the basics are taken care of, make time. Make time, for sure. That’s so good. Well, I feel like it’s only fair, since I asked you so many questions at the beginning, I feel like it’s only fair that we turn the tables and make it the Shawn Parikh podcast.

Shawn: I think you should have — let me ask you a question. I think everyone asks this question to you. Well, accounting and comedy, same thing, you know? How did this happen?

John: When I was with PwC and I would go in, to do internal audit work, clients would say, you’re my favorite auditor ever. I’m not sure if that’s good or bad because I think it’s really good, but on the other hand, am I not doing what I’m supposed to be doing? Because maybe I’m missing a bunch of things. Yeah, but it’s just bringing some personality to your work and to your profession and to your career. I think it breathes life into everyone around you. Yeah, certainly not the norm, but there are a handful of us out there actually. That’s been fun, to have them be a part of this too.

Shawn: Let me ask you another question. What kind of anxiety or, let’s say, nervousness was there? I’m sure it would have been liberating once things started turning, but jumping immediately from accounting to doing shows, what kind of anxiety, nervousness was there? Creating content and people not laughing at your jokes or not having the laughter.

John: What was I thinking? Basically, did my mom send you? I did it for years, at night, on the side, at night and on weekends. I did comedy while I had my day job. It was my “and”. I was a CPA and a comedian. At some point, just reached a breaking point where I was going to leave the company that I worked for and happened to catch a couple of breaks. It was like, well, you know what, I’m just going to try and run as fast as I can and try to get escape velocity to get out into the orbit of the comedy world. I was fortunate enough to be able to do so, but I did it for at least five years, at night, on the side. I also don’t advocate that because it’s so much harder. My “and”, I used to do it for fun and for joy, and now it became my job. It didn’t provide as much joy as it used to, because I had to do it in order to pay the bills. Keeping it on the side is, I think, the ideal situation. You have a steady paycheck, you have benefits, you have all of that, and then you’re good at your job. Then you have this other thing on the side that just lights you up and provides joy, and you can do that when you feel like doing it, type of thing.

Shawn: Well, one of my hobbies, I don’t know if I told you or not, but one of my hobbies is to analyze businesses. It gives me real joy, understanding business models, looking at the management, conference calls, and it almost feels like a story, tying to something.

John: No, that’s awesome, man. Yeah, and I just appreciate you taking time to be a part of What’s Your “And”? Shawn. This has been really, really fun.

Shawn: Thank you, John. It has been a real pleasure and fun to be on your show. I think what you’re doing is wonderful, and sharing joy with people, as well as people who identify with personal-professional life balance and living it with fun energy.

John: Yeah, and everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Shawn outside of work, or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com All the links are there, and while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. Don’t forget to read the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 453 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And?” on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Robina Bennion. She’s a Soul-Self-Wealth doula, and now she’s with me here today. Robina, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Robina: Thank you, John. I’m super excited to be here.

John: Oh, this is going to be so awesome. We’ve been trading LinkedIn messages and emails for quite a while now, and so I’m excited to have you be a part of this.

Robina: Same.

John: This is going to be so much fun. I do have rapid-fire questions, though. Get to know Robina on a new level here. I’ll start you out with maybe an easy one. I don’t know. Favorite color.

Robina: Teal blue or gold. I do alternate gold. I love gold too.

John: Gold. Yeah, that’s solid. All right. How about a least favorite color?

Robina: Kind of like CalTrans orange. Well, I’m from California, so we have CalTrans, which is like the safety cones, it just doesn’t look good on me.

John: Right. Is Robina dressed as a cone? What is going on? Yeah, that doesn’t look good on anybody. You’re right.

Robina: No. No.

John: How about, oh, speaking of clothes, how about heels or flats?

Robina: Heels are super empowering. I don’t know. There’s something about it. It makes you stand up straighter, but I love being barefoot.

John: Oh, barefoot, so, no shoes. Okay. All right. I like it. That’s a good answer. How about your first concert?

Robina: Garth Brooks.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Robina: Yeah, that’s a big one.

John: Go straight to the top.

Robina: Yeah, that’s a show right there. Well, and I just stopped. There’s nothing better. That’s the only concert I’ve been to.

John: He’s quite a showman. That’s for sure.

Robina: Yeah, back in the day. I won’t say how long ago that was but back in the day, yeah.

John: Just a couple of weeks ago. It’s all good. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw?

Robina: Oh, I love jigsaw. Yeah.

John: Okay. Yeah, yeah. It’s a picture. It’s kind of fun.

Robina: Right?

John: Yeah, totally. How about a TV show you binge-watch?

Robina: Gosh, there’s a few of them. Lately, because of Netflix. I will say, when The Crown comes out, I binge-watch all the way, from one to the end. I just want to see what they come up with. It’s very interesting. I don’t know why I’m so fascinated by it.

John: Well, it’s just a different world, I guess, the royalty and whatever and all that, yeah. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Robina: I’m a PC girl.

John: Yeah, me too, not the girl part but PC.

Robina: I’m a PC human. How’s that?

John: No, no, no, it’s all good. When you said it, I go, me too. Wait, hold on. My bad.

Robina: It’s all good. I don’t know heels or flats, John?

John: Right? Barefoot. Yeah, but one of each, one of each, I think. It seems easy. How about a favorite Disney character?

Robina: Oh. Well, gosh, Disney’s expanded so much these days.

John: Right. There’s a billion.

Robina: Oh, gosh. If I went back old school, I’ll go back to Disney when Disney was Disney for me. I watched Little Mermaid, I don’t know how many times. I went back and listened recently. The music, if you listen to the words, it’s pretty fitting. Yeah, I’ll go with Little Mermaid for right now.

John: Very good. That’s a great answer, great answer. Since you’re PC, on your mouse, are you more right click or left click?

Robina: Well, gosh, I’d say ambidextrous because I’m right-handed, but I will use my mouse and my left hand a lot. I taught myself to do that, so I could be multitasking.

John: You’re clicking both sides on both hands.

Robina: Yeah.

John: Wow.

Robina: Yeah.

John: I couldn’t possibly imagine using a mouse with my left hand. That’s crazy.

Robina: You can train yourself in a day. I wanted a ten-key, so if I can move my mouse and ten-key at the same time, right?

John: Oh, man, you’re just super-efficient. That’s next level. How about pens or pencils?

Robina: Oh, I love pens. When I write, it’s in a pen. Although the auditing tax side of me is all about the pencil.

John: Right. Is it a colored pencil? Is it a regular pencil? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, the accountant in you, balance sheet or income statement?

Robina: Okay, I’ve listened to you ask this. I’m a Libra, so I love the balance. It’s all about how much money you’re making to ensure you’re profit — I don’t get wrapped up in wealth and all of that, but ensuring that you’re profitable and going in and analyzing that, that’s where the problem-solving is. That piece, to me, is a lot more fun. The balance sheet is the reward at the end. That’s like finishing the puzzle, everything falling into place.

John: Yeah, I always say it’s great to know if it’s right or not, because then it balances. The income statement, I might have done it wrong, and I don’t know.

Robina: Right.

John: Yeah, as long as it’s positive. That’s a good point. All right, we’ve got a couple more. Are you more of an early bird or night owl?

Robina: I am both.

John: Okay.

Robina: Yeah, it just depends. I will say I’ve been more of an early bird lately because night owl, it’s hard on your body.

John: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I become tired for the next two days. It’s like old man. Yeah.

Robina: Early bird is where I get all the magic in, the writing or whatever comes to me in the morning.

John: Before everything else starts to get in and filter or clog it up.

Robina: Yes.

John: How about your favorite number?

Robina: Oh, gosh, I’m going to go with 33.

John: Okay. Is there a reason?

Robina: It was a great year. I stayed 33 for about eight years.

John: Oh, right.

Robina: I don’t know. I just love that number. There’s something about it. I love any date that has to do with my birthday. Yeah, and who doesn’t love three?

John: Right, three and then there’s two of them. It’s great. 3,333, but that’s weird. 33 is solid. Yeah. How about books, audio version, e-book or real book.

Robina: Real book.

John: Yeah, I’m similar. Three more. Favorite actor or actress.

Robina: Hugh Jackman. He’s so diverse. I love Greatest Showman, that whole movie, but just the fact that he can be Wolverine and then dancing on a stage is just — I love watching him act. Yeah.

John: Yeah, he’s hogging up all the awesomeness. It’s frustrating but cool to watch. Would you say more chocolate or vanilla?

Robina: I like them together, with a little bit of peanut butter thrown in. I’m more of a salty, I like salt stuff versus sweets.

John: Yeah. Okay. I like it. All right. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Robina: Other than all of my friends, my friends and my family are the most precious things that I have. I don’t own them, but I have. Yeah, I would say I have this teddy bear that my grandma gave all the grandkids a long time ago, and I’ve always cherished it. I keep it with me. When I go out somewhere, my son holds it for me. I’ll take it hiking with me. There’s that energy within it. I don’t know. I just cherish it.

John: No, that’s super cool. I could totally relate to that. That’s awesome.

Robina: Yeah. I live in California. Houses burn down all the time. I probably would grab that and take it with me.

John: Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. That’s really, really cool. Let’s talk about your “and” of, I guess, just art. How did that get started? I’ve seen your stuff. It’s awesome and so diverse and different and colorful. Was it something that you started as a kid or got into later in life? What’s that journey?

Robina: Yeah, it’s definitely later. I grew up with a brother who is very artistic in the way of how I used to think art was. He could replicate anything. He’s amazing when it comes to art. For me, when I got to, probably high school, I did an art class. I remember I got a B on something and then I flunked the color wheel. I just thought I have no artistic ability, but I could draw. If you give me something, I can draw it. So, I just shelved it. Every once in a while, during busy season, I bring out a pencil and just draw something to relax.

When I started my own business, I worked with a company. They’re called Root and River. The way that they do branding is very different, finding out what’s the message you want to share with the world, and they combine the artistic side with it. They would draw my words. It just woke something up inside of me. There is an image that Emily, one of the owners, drew. I was like, I’ve been drawing that since I was 15, randomly. I went and dug out my drawings, and I just, from there, I started painting. I watercolor.

I realized I, after a while, I would meet with people, and I would paint after. I was painting their energy or the energy of the conversation, so it’s just migrated from there. Now it’s getting in tune with my own energy, painting what I’m feeling, and it’s really a freedom. After so many years of public accounting, it, so being structured, to allow myself the freedom to just make, I don’t think they’re mistakes on the canvas, but just to create whatever I want. That’s how it’s evolved.

John: That’s awesome. Plus, then you can take, like you said, the energy from that conversation, and then it’s a way to get it out of you, I guess, because I would harness that and then just have a big black canvas of, rah. I hate that guy, rah. By getting it out, it’s not inside you anymore, and you’re not carrying it around. I’ve seen your pieces. They’re not what I’m talking about at all. It’s a beautiful expression of that, and I think that’s really neat. That’s a cool way to think about it.

Robina: Well, like you said, the filtering, I used to do that. I’d pick up people’s energy all the time, and we do. You read a room, right? You know the energy in the room, if you’re going to stand up and tell some jokes. It’s kind of like filtering that experience onto the canvas, and I would send it to people and say, this was what came through after maybe our session or something. They see themselves in a different light because of that. Because what can feel like a heavy conversation to them, when they see that it’s a bright and vibrant color, I think it transforms the way that they look at that experience.

John: Wow. Yeah, that’s really deep. That’s interesting. Yeah, because then it’s them revisiting that conversation and being like, maybe I didn’t see it the same way that Robina did. You’re able to put a positive spin on it, either way. That’s really cool. Yeah. Do you have some of your pieces that are more of your favorites? Or it’s probably like asking people their favorite child. I’m sure they’re all great, but do you have some that are more your favorites or ones that spoke to you more?

Robina: I know your audience can’t see, but behind me, these are some of the ones that I really love. This one over here is a 13-day process.

John: Oh, wow.

Robina: Yeah, it did not start this way at all. I don’t know. I love them each differently, like you said. For the record, I love both my children equally, just in different ways. Right?

John: Right. Right. It depends on what they just said to me, so maybe one a little bit more right now. No. That is cool because they are all different and unique. Like you said, 13 days, that’s not just sit down, color in the numbers, do whatever and leave. It’s coming back to it. I’m sure, in your mind, you must be playing this out some in your mind, of, should I revisit or not, or what would that look like, sort of thing.

Robina: Right. There are some, I will paint over the canvas. It’s like, okay, I’m done with that one. I’m going to add something new. This one was actually, it was a 21-day painting meditation that I was supposed to be doing. I made it to day 13, and I didn’t want to paint any further. Who knows, one day I may add to it. This one behind me, the other one.

John: Yeah, like a starburst.

Robina: Again, people can’t see.

John: Hurricane starburst sort of a thing, yeah.

Robina: It was just to sit down and do it one shot kind of thing.

John: Yeah, that is cool. I love that freedom to be like, you know what, I’m going to paint over the canvas and start over, or I’m going to come back and add something later. It’s never done done if I don’t want it to be, type of thing. That freedom is pretty liberating, I would imagine.

Robina: It’s just different than how a lot of things that I did in my life, throughout my career. To be able to have this flexibility and say, I can put anything I want on there, and it’s not like every piece of it is an artwork, it’s just freeing. I enjoy the process. Trust me, all of my art is so different. I haven’t really landed on a style yet. I just keep exploring.

John: Well, and like you said, it’s this energy in and what you’re feeling, and then it’s your way to express it onto the canvas, visually. That’s great. You had the public accounting background, and then I know in the intro I said, Soul-Self-Wealth doula. I didn’t want to try and explain that in a million years, but maybe, in your words, because it’s much more than just, obviously, accounting. There’s some depth and dimensions to it.

Robina: Oh, yes. Yeah, I stepped away from public accounting career a few years ago and started on a new path. It started with people saying, “Can you coach me around money?” I wanted to provide them an opportunity to do something different because I didn’t want to be one of those people, I just wrote budgets up for them. That didn’t feel like it was really adding value to anybody’s life. I didn’t want to be hovering over them, we need to spend here, because that’s not healthy either.

I went down this path of, I became a certified money coach which is more about behavioral and looking at your life experiences and how it’s showing up in your relationship with money. In turn, I realized it shows up in many ways. Like the “and” that you talk about, the things that you do with your life, how does it show up for you, personally, as Robina in the world? What about those dreams and things that just feed your soul and however you define soul? Then wealth, money.

For me, the doula part is walking through the journey with people to really rediscover, how do I live my life in alignment with all of those areas that feeds all of me, not just this career-focused CPA Robina, but the fact that I am so much more than a CPA, and a way that sparks joy. It brings just light and life to everything that I’m creating. Often, that is a journey for people to allow things to die away, to honor them and celebrate what they provided them in the journey, to move on from that so that new things can be birthed within them. That just may be birthing a stronger relationship, say, with a spouse around talking about money, or even within your own business.

John: Wow. I am so glad I didn’t try to explain that. You’re right. It’s creating that space and lifting those weights off of you, especially around money. It’s the way we grew up. It’s the way we see. It’s whatever story we tell ourselves that probably isn’t true. It’s great to be able to lift that off of people and then allow them to grow into their own relationship there. Wow, that’s got to be really enriching. That’s so much better than, here’s your budget and stay in these lines or else, type of concept.

Robina: It helps to answer, why don’t I stay within the lines of the budget? Maybe there’s this rebellious side of you that has always, it’s pushed against that, for whatever reason. You discover that, and you find new ways to work through it.

John: Yeah.

Robina: It is very rewarding, I have to say. Just to go on that too, is to bring in the art piece of it now, is just a whole other, it’s the icing on the cake. Because now, when I’m working with people or I’m putting together material, I bring in my art. I’m getting ready to launch a book, not to do a plug, but to play just as an example, is I didn’t want to use anybody else’s art in it. I put my own art into the book, and that, to me, just excites me. It’s really supporting people to come from the left brain and the right brain and support them to tap into that creative side, because that’s what opens up all the possibility.

John: Yeah, that’s awesome. It’s just cool to hear how intertwined they are because they really are, like you said earlier. You can’t take the “and” away from Robina. It’s like asking you to not do art again. You’re like, what, not breathe, how’s that possible, type of thing. They are intertwined. If I’m coming to something, well, I’m bringing the artist with me. I can’t leave that person behind. They’re all here.

Robina: Yeah.

John: That’s super, super cool. How much do you feel like it is on an organization to create that space to find out what people’s “ands” are and celebrate them, versus maybe a small circle amongst your peers, just getting it started from a smaller level?

Robina: I can only speak to the accounting profession.

John: Sure, yeah.

Robina: Because that’s where I spent my life. I think it’s both. I would love to see leadership bring more of this into their organizations because, just like you talk about in your book, people are happier. It creates more conversation. It realizes that we’re more human. We’re not just these computers that we work on each day that spit out numbers. I believe that that builds the teamwork. At the end of the day, if you’re feeling that call within you, create your own group. Those small groups are what really can, I think, I don’t know, enliven your life, make a business better. Then it catches on because then someone else in another office is going to say, “Hey, I heard you’re doing this.” Of course, now that everything’s remote, you could just start a new trend within a company, and you just change it from the inside out.

John: Yeah. No, absolutely. It’s one of those things where I feel like so much of us live in a permission-based mindset where we’re just waiting for permission to do it. I’m like, well, I guarantee you that your leadership has never even thought of this. If you never asked, or just go do it, 99.9% of the time, they’re going to go, wow, that was awesome, do more, and we should have thought of that.

That 0.1% of the time when they slam you for it, well, then maybe you’re not where you should be, type of thing. Is that the environment that you want to be in, with people like that? So many good things come from sharing the human side to you. The more remote we work, the more tech is involved in our job, the more all that, the more human has to — it’s not a teeter-totter where, oh, more tech, less human. No, no. It’s the same. You have to actually ratchet up the human more.

Robina: Right. In the accounting profession, you get review notes all the time, so it almost feels like everything that you’re creating is a mistake.

John: Right.

Robina: It’s never like, oh, great job, Robina, and they put gold stars on your review papers. It’s always like, oh, you missed this work paper reference. Oh, I didn’t refer A1 to X2 or something. Having that communication with my team, at least reflecting back when I was doing that, I was running a lot. Having somebody on my team who also ran, created this exchange, you are like I am. When the review notes came, it didn’t feel like it was just a diagnostic that was coming back to you. It was okay, I know who Robina is, and I’m not going to be so offended by this because now I can hear it in her voice. There’s some relational thing that can happen there, and the person is going to be more willing to come to you and ask questions. What did you mean by this review note?

John: Yeah.

Robina: Because I can get in my mode where I was just getting my job done, and so maybe there wasn’t the expansion there that I needed. That opens the door for someone to feel comfortable, pick up the phone, message me, at least I hope.

John: No, for sure, because it’s almost like a friend pulling you aside and saying, “Look, Robina, I know you can do better,” as opposed to a manager coming down with, you big dumdum head, how did you even pass the exam? There’s no way you know how to add. It’s like, oh, my Lord. That’s how the tone can come across, for sure.

I remember when I was new at PWC, and I was on a project. The manager only talked to me twice, and both times were to tell me what I did wrong. It’s like, well, how about the awesome stuff that I’m doing over here? No comment. You’re like, what the hell, I don’t want to work with you ever again. This is not a pleasant experience. It’s not that I need to be coddled. It’s just that you can have some other dimensions to our relationship here and then it makes it not so critical feedback.

Robina: I will say, the other thing about that is that kind of conversation of like, oh, you dumdum, how did you pass the CPA exam, that became the conversation that I had in my head, the further I went in my career. It’s also, the more I got separated from my “and”, I’d have to go out and find these more intense things to do because my career became more intense. Instead of going and running three miles, I’m out there trying to do an ultra-marathon or something because everybody has time in their life for that when you’re working during busy season.

It was like, the further I went from doing those things that made me happy that were tapping into these own unique gifts that we have, because I can’t just stand up on a stage and crack jokes. That’s our own unique gift. The further I got from that, though, the more that dialogue in my head was, Robina, you’re a dumdum. People are asking how did you pass the CPA exam? This rhetoric, also because it takes me away from interacting with other people and that humaneness. Like we talked about, when you’re the average of the five people, and you’re only hanging out with yourself, that can be a not great place to be in.

John: That is not good. Trust me, everybody. I know that for a fact. You’re right. That is so profound, that the higher you got and the more intense work got and the more removed from your “and” you got, the more you were grasping at just crazy things. Then you’re just burning the candle at 17 “ands” now, which is impossible, but you’re like, each “and” in the middle, why not? Let’s go for it all. It’s just not healthy, and it’s not a sustainable way to live, for sure.

Robina: Just trying to find that energetic balance. If you’re at the extreme of one “and”, then you might go to the extreme of the other just to offset the two, and find that place, whatever you’re doing, whatever your “and” is. For me, it’s just I’ve come to this complete place of calm. I’m not thinking about what I have to do next week or what I did last week. I’m just fully immersed and enjoying what it is that I’m doing in that moment.

John: Yeah, I love it. That’s awesome. Like right now and seeing it. No, but you’re right. That’s exactly it. You’re bringing who you are, all the parts of you, to all the things that you’re doing, and it’s just a much more balanced way to be. That’s awesome. Such great words of encouragement for everyone listening. Just rewind, listen to Robina again, and then do that.

Robina: Maybe not running marathons during busy season.

John: Oh, yeah, not that part.

Robina: I actually don’t recommend that.

John: I actually don’t recommend running at all. No, I’m just kidding.

Robina: Yeah. Now I’m just about hiking. I’m a little bit more calm.

John: I’m just lazy. That’s really what it is.

Robina: You’re just on your peloton watching the scenes go by.

John: Right. Exactly.

Robina: That works.

John: That’s hilarious. I feel like, before we wrap this up, that it’s only fair that I turn the tables since I peppered you with questions at the beginning and would hate to see what that painting looks like. I feel like it’s only fair that we balance this out, first episode of the Robina Bennion podcast. I’m happy to be a guest. What do you got for me?

Robina: All right. Well, welcome to the podcast everyone. Today my host is John Garrett with What’s Your “And”? We have a few questions so you can get to know him. John, going back old school when you were younger, Saturday morning cartoons or Saturday Night Live.

John: Okay, when I was younger, Saturday morning cartoons, Tom and Jerry, Woody Woodpecker, all day long. Then as I got older, it became SNL and Kids in the Hall and In Living Color and all that. Yeah, but when I was younger as a kid, yeah, definitely.

Robina: Because the old school cartoons are way better.

John: They’re so good. They’re so good and just hilarious. They’re always good, always, always.

Robina: Yeah. My kids never appreciate the comment, I made a wrong turn in Albuquerque.

John: Right?

Robina: Yeah.

John: That’s awesome.

Robina: Next question, John. If you had a superpower, what would it be?

John: Oh, wow. It’s probably not considered a superpower, but to be able to sing would be a superpower in my world. I can play instruments. I can hear music well. I can all of that, but when it comes out of my mouth and then hits my ear, it is, yikes. Old women in church turn around. They’re like, look, God still loves you. You don’t have to sing. It’s all good. I’m so bad. I would require a lot of training, I don’t know. Singing, it would just be great to be able to sing and not have everyone be like, hey, you know what, just stop, type of thing.

Robina: Well, at least people did that. My mom just let me sing, and then I look back. I’m like, I didn’t know how to sing at all. Why did she let me stand up in church in front of everybody and sing?

John: Oh, my gosh, maybe she can’t hear either, or tone deaf.

Robina: Maybe.

John: Just sort of like, that sounds beautiful. No, not really. We need 27 kids all together to counterbalance and then a really perfect note comes out.

Robina: Yeah. I think a little bit of Robina, you can’t do anything that you want to do in life. There are limitations within.

John: Yeah, within that, yeah, for sure.

Robina: I have one more question for you, John. A new James Bond movie is coming out. Who’s your favorite bond?

John: Oh, my favorite Bond, yeah, that’s going to be hard. I don’t know. Sean Connery is the classic. Pierce Brosnan maybe, I don’t know because he just seems kind of accountant-y, so maybe I can relate.

Robina: Not your stereotypical accountant.

John: He could be an accountant. Sean Connery, no. The newer guy, no. Yeah, I feel like Pierce Brosnan, I’d probably say that.

Robina: See, I’m a Daniel Craig fan. I don’t know. I think it’s because he’s so against the rules.

John: Yeah, he’s a badass. He’s a total badass. Yeah. No, no, absolutely, which I can appreciate, 100%. Yeah, awesome. This has been so much fun, Robina. Thank you so much for taking time to be a part of What’s Your “And”?

Robina: Thank you, John. It’s been a blast. I’ve really enjoyed it.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Robina outside of work, or maybe some of her art or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 451 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the workplace cultures where they work because of it. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And?” on Audible or wherever you get your audio books.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Dave Skuodas. He’s a watershed manager at Mile High Flood District, and now he’s with me here today. Dave, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Dave: Thank you for having me, John. It’s wonderful to be here. I enjoyed your keynote at our conference a couple of weeks ago, and I just, I’m like, I’ve got to talk to this guy a little more. He seems like a lot of fun.

John: Well, thank you, man. Ditto. Yeah, CASFM, that was so much fun. Engineers, I wanted to grow up and be you guys, and then I got a D in Physics, and it was over.

Dave: Wa-wa-wa. Well, it turns out we are more fun than people give us credit for. I know you started as an accountant, so I’m sure that was just like —

John: Oh, yeah.

Dave: Yes, we are more awesome than people give us credit for.

John: Well, and that’s the thing, is that’s what the whole what’s your “and” is. It’s this whole other side that you unlock from people, and it’s like, man, this is freaking cool. That’s why I’m excited, and yours is going to be no different. I do have some rapid-fire questions, get to know Dave out of the gate here. I’ll start you out with, how about a favorite day of the week?

Dave: Oh, I’ve got to go with Saturday which is, that’s sort of cheating a little bit, but I have an eight-year-old daughter, and I have a ten-month-old puppy. They just kind of pile on my wife and I on Saturday mornings, and it’s just glorious. We don’t have the stress of trying to get everybody out the door, so I love Saturday morning.

John: Just chill and have a slow morning, and that’s perfect.

Dave: Yeah.

John: So nice. So nice. How about when it comes to puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw puzzle?

Dave: Hmm, I would say Sudoku because it sounds and is spelled really close to my last name, but I’ve never gotten into those.

John: It’s all the letters, just jumbled.

Dave: Yeah. Right, right, right. You just mix up those letters, and it’s pretty much my last name. No. I’ve got to go with the crossword because I like the mental challenge. It’s almost like Trivial Pursuit in a way, so I enjoy that.

John: Definitely, because there’s a next level to it of, what’s the answer, and then how do I spell it?

Dave: Right. Right. You’ve got to think with different parts of your brain and then you end up asking somebody for help. You have a group thing which is hard to do with Sudoku.

John: Flip to the back of the airline magazine. Oh, that’s how you spell it. Okay.

Dave: That’s right. That’s right.

John: That’s awesome. How about a favorite color?

Dave: Well, I grew up right outside of Lincoln, Nebraska, so I’ve got to go with Husker red. That just stuck with me. It’s tough to be a Husker fan these days, but I’m still going to go with red.

John: Yeah, and everything there is red. Casual Fridays are wear your Husker, especially in the fall. It might as well be a fan day.

Dave: Exactly. I’ve got to tell you, I was a teenager in the ‘90s.

John: Oh, wow. Yes.

Dave: The Huskers were just dominant through my teenage years. Then in ‘96, I went to school at University of Florida. They won a championship.

John: It’s you. You’re the good luck charm.

Dave: Well, apparently, I was. I don’t know what I was doing back then. I need to re-find the magic because it is gone, baby.

John: Right. It’s gone. That’s funny. How about least favorite color?

Dave: Well, I don’t want to be gross, but I had a really rough night last night. It’s because my ten-month-old puppy had, I don’t know what she ate yesterday, but it didn’t go well last night. We had little digestive reckonings that we had to deal with, so I’ve got to say my least favorite color right now is brown. I will stop with that.

John: Brown is by far, the least popular color that I’m getting on here. It’s pretty universal on that, for sure. Oh, this is a fun one. How about socks or shoes?

Dave: Oh, I have to choose? Well, I have to go with socks because, oddly, when I work from home, there’s a vent right near where my desk sits, and it blows cold air on my feet. I just find that I’ll try to go barefoot, and I’ve got to go with the socks. I love the socks. Shoes just squish your feet in there anyway, so, socks.

John: Yeah, socks are comfortable. You don’t even know you’re wearing them, half the time. Yeah, exactly. There you go. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Dave: I’ve got to go with Oscar Isaac. Maybe it’s because he’s got the dark features like I do, but I think it’s probably more so that he is really multi-talented. He can sing, and he can play guitar. Then he got to be the hotshot X-wing pilot in Star Wars. I mean, sign me up. Yeah, definitely Oscar Isaac.

John: There you go. How about chocolate or vanilla?

Dave: Chocolate all the way. Chocolate all the way but mix in a little coffee flavor or peanut butter, and we are set.

John: Okay, a little extra zing. There you go. I think I know this one, Star Wars or Star Trek.

Dave: Got to go with Star Wars. I was five years old when Return of the Jedi came out, and I think my mom was obsessed with it. She took me to see it in the theater, about ten or 15 times, so it’s kind of imprinted into my DNA.

John: Right, the full script. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Dave: PC, just out of necessity, so I can actually interact with my coworkers. Yeah, that’s just a default. I could go rogue and try to say, no, I’m going to do a Mac. I don’t care what you guys say. Then something wouldn’t work, and it would be my fault.

John: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. How about favorite ice cream flavor?

Dave: Yeah, going back to the chocolate, chocolate with — actually, no, I’ve got to go coffee chocolate chip.

John: Oh, chocolate chip. Okay.

Dave: Got to inverse the proportions there.

John: Yeah, coffee is the first word there. That’s good. Yeah, yeah. How about a favorite Disney character? There’s a billion now, I think.

Dave: Yeah, I could go with Marvel or Star Wars, but I’m going to say Dory just because the way they wrote her character with how forgetful she was and then Ellen DeGeneres’ voice, it was just so incredibly clever. I’ve got to go with Dory. She just cracks me up.

John: No, that totally works. How about are you more talk or text?

Dave: It’s got to be text. Talking on the phone, for some reason, it’s just exhausting. I don’t know why. Text, it makes people be concise because you can only go so fast with your thumb, so it makes people be to the point.

John: To the point. Yeah, yeah. Okay. How about your first concert?

Dave: It was Stone Temple Pilots.

John: Nice.

Dave: Teenager in the ‘90s, yeah, I think it was their Vaseline or their Purple album with the song Vaseline. Oh, yeah.

John: No, they were so good, man. That’s awesome. I wasn’t sure. Maybe that or 311, being a Nebraska guy.

Dave: They were in there pretty early but, yeah, totally the Pilots.

John: They probably opened for them.

Dave: Yeah.

John: How about — we’ve got four more — how about a favorite number?

Dave: I’m going to go with 32. It is because, two things. Magic Johnson was my childhood idol, and that was his number. It also was my wife’s basketball number. We play roulette, we always play 32. That’s the one.

John: There you go. There you go. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Dave: These days, I’ve got to go e-book because I like to highlight things and then cut and paste and make my own sort of CliffsNotes, which is harder to do with the physical book. I’m driving less now, so it’s harder to find time to listen to the audio books.

John: Right, right. Yeah, it is hard to cut and paste from a real book. You’re like, just cut it out. What is going on?

Dave: It’s more literal. Yeah.

John: That’s funny. All right, since you’ve got the engineer, and I played one for a semester in college, bridges or skyscrapers, going sideways or vertical. I don’t know.

Dave: Well, I’ve got to go with bridges because you need those to pass the water, and that’s my line of work. I’m going to have to go with bridges.

John: I figured so, but you never know. You never know. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Dave: I’ve got to go with my drone. That thing brings me joy. It brings me joy.

John: Right, which leads perfectly right into your “and”, photography, videography. How did you get started with that? Is it something you were doing as a kid, or did you get into it later?

Dave: No, it happened organically, and it’s because the kind of work I do. It really overlapped with my work in a happy way, but it developed organically. Because when I first started my job that I’m in right now, it was 2010, and I started with this crappy old Blackberry. Eventually, when I migrated to an iPhone, I found that these stream restoration and flood control projects that I find myself on, they happened to be pretty photogenic because I’m out in nature. When we do our job really well, we get to build infrastructure that looks like nature, and it’s fun to photograph.

I started developing this library of really great iPhone photos, and I started using them in presentations. I created a really good library, and then other people started using them. They really liked my stuff, and it grew from there. Eventually, when we had our daughter, the first few years, we would pay photographers to do her yearly portraits. That’s not cheap, right? By the time she was five, I asked my wife, I was like, you know, honey, I think I can do this. Instead of paying a photographer, could we instead use the money that I could buy like a decent DSLR? She’s like, sure.

John: There you go.

Dave: Then the photography started getting a little more sophisticated and all of that, and it just grew from there. I really just enjoyed photographing the work that we do, and it’s been neat to see people really start to relate me as being a good photographer and having a great library of stuff. People just —

John: That’s awesome.

Dave: — started using it. Yeah.

John: It’s so encouraging too, that it’s like, oh, it’s good. People enjoy it. It doesn’t have to be hanging in a museum, but it’s like, yeah, alright. You did it because you enjoyed it. The accidental byproduct is, oh, wow, people like it. Cool. That encourages me more.

Dave: Right, and it turns out, we need to show off our work sometimes, whether it’s an annual report or presentations or talking to our Board, and so people just started mining my library for stuff. That’s been really cool.

John: Yeah. Then you took it to a next level because I’ve seen on LinkedIn, some of your videos of some of the watershed projects that you’ve done. The drone is just like, this is awesome. This is so great.

Dave: Yeah. Well, the videography, that, I will say it started, I was at a conference several years back. There was another guy who works at the City of Denver, and they had bought a drone. They were flying it for different purposes, work-related purposes, and then the guy was giving a presentation about the ways they were finding this really useful. The videography part was, when he gave his presentation, he did this send up of combining footage of their drone and interspersing it with the helicopter raid scene from Apocalypse Now where it’s like the Ride of the Valkyries. It was hilarious.

I was in the audience, and it was almost like I was given permission. I was like, I didn’t know we could do videos with our presentations. That was amazing. I want to do that. How do I do that? I present very regularly. I had this talk where I was going to talk about this thing called roughness value which is how much stuff is in the way of the water that wants to flow along a river, and there’s this coefficient called roughness. I was going to talk about that. I decided to, at the end of it, do a spoof of my own talk but in the style of those direct TV commercials. When your cable company keeps you on hold, you get angry. Eventually, it just gets worse and worse. There’s this one where the guy ends up in a roadside ditch, and it’s like, don’t end up in a roadside ditch.

John: Yeah. Oh, totally. Yeah, for something so simple and mundane, and all of a sudden, you’re going to be in a ditch. You did a spoof of that.

Dave: Yeah. Well, I was doing a spoof of it, but it was just with still photos on my PowerPoint. I showed my boss, and it stopped just short of the roadside ditch thing. She thought it was really funny. At the end, she goes, I thought you were going to end up in the roadside ditch.

John: Yes.

Dave: I looked at her. I was like, I should end up in the roadside ditch.

John: Right?

Dave: Yeah. Then I got some coworkers to basically recreate that TV commercial, which basically means they had to chase me like a group of bandits, and I had to end up in a roadside ditch.

John: That’s so good. It’s so engaging, and it’s fun to do. People want to watch that stuff.

Dave: Right. Then I did this at the conference, and people just found it hilarious. The downside was, in subsequent years of that same conference, they were expecting me to do this again. I had to do sequels.

John: That’d be great. One year, you actually start in the ditch, and then it’s like, let’s pick up where we left off, type of thing.

Dave: That’s great. I should do that. I should do that. Whatever happened to Dave in the ditch? Where did he end up?

John: He’s still there from four years ago? You’ve got this giant Santa beard.

Dave: Yeah, that’s great.

John: Thanks for coming, everybody.

Dave: There’s a pandemic? What happened?

John: Right. I’ve been in this ditch. It’s cool to see that you’re using the photography for other things as well, not just the work, which is cool, too.

Dave: Yeah, yeah. Some of those things, once I think of something funny like that, I have a hard time resisting bringing it into the world. Maybe becoming known for the video, the funny video guy, I don’t want to be the clown of the industry, but it’s given me some recognition, that’s for sure.

John: Yeah. It’s not a bad thing. At least you’re known as something. You do know what you’re doing, and you’re good at what you do, so why not spruce it up a little bit. Do you have something that you’ve shot, whether it’s photography or videography, whether it’s work-related or not, that’s been some of your more favorite things, besides the ditch video?

Dave: Yeah, the ditch video.

John: Awesome. I love it. Well, I’d have to say my piece de resistance with the videography at least, was there was this one year when we were renovating the office. We were going to have to get out, half at a time, and go to this temporary office down the hall. They were going to renovate half and then move that half back and then move the other half into the temporary space and did this sort of thing. In the first half of people they moved out, they found asbestos, and so they decided all of a sudden, everybody has to get out.

John: Oh, my goodness, yeah.

Dave: This is like a 50-person office, and we all just have to, within a week, move out. Well, they didn’t have space in the temporary office down the hall, so the other half of us had to go in the basement next to a loading dock and next to the men’s restroom. I had to document this experience. You’d end up with this big disparity in experience with the people upstairs who had windows, and the rest of us are downstairs.

John: The Help type of thing or like a Downton Abbey sort of thing.

Dave: Yeah, there are eight of us in a room together. It’s just weird. I just went around and filmed everybody, asking them how this was. Eventually, I had such great material that I added a little bit of scripted material that I got some people, even the head dude, the executive director, he was on board.

John: That’s great.

Dave: I scripted a little bit to turn it into a five-minute episode of The Office.

John: Yes, yes.

Dave: That was my piece de resistance, and I just haven’t been able to top it since.

John: Yeah, that’s super awesome. It’s fun, and it’s bringing your passion for this, to work, so then that makes work more enjoyable. Work’s fine, but sometimes work’s not. To bring this enthusiasm that I have for photography and videography, to work, then, man, work is awesome now. This is so much fun. That sounds great.

Dave: Yeah. I made a little time capsule too. We can look back at it and like, remember when we were down by the loading dock? Then we can play the video.

John: We all thought we were getting fired. They were just stepping us out, one step at a time. Just, well, since you’re here, might as well just go. We’re just keeping this top office.

Dave: One of the funniest things with that is when we have new staff that didn’t go through that experience and doesn’t know about that video, and then they may come across it at some point, they’re like, what is this?

John: That’s great.

Dave: Yeah, we had this funny experience. Yeah. Anyway.

John: There was a time when things were weird. Things are weird now, but they were less weird then. No, that’s really cool. Was there ever a time when you thought, should I share this, or are people going to care? I guess it was veiled in the work-related pictures and videos, so you were able to easily bring it in. Was there ever a part where you’re like, are people going to care?

Dave: I think it’s more so, are people going to be bothered that I’m commingling work and fun a little bit? Because you’ll get some people who are fuddy-duddies about stuff, and maybe it’s that they just don’t want to be on camera. That’s okay. Some people are just like that. I did have a person, one time, say, “Oh, are you spending taxpayer dollars on that stuff?” I’m like, well, I don’t sit at my desk during work and edit or anything, but occasionally I might film something during the day. I was just like, man, that’s a buzzkill type of thought.

John: Right. Because now you’re doing it. Yeah. We’re getting the work done.

Dave: Yeah. We’re human beings, and we’re allowed to bring some joy and fun into the day. It’s not like we’re robots sitting there, chained to our desks.

John: Right. I love that you said that it’s like commingling work and fun, as if work should be completely separate from fun. It’s like, no, no, they should totally, why not? You’re at work, more waking hours than your family.

Dave: Exactly.

John: Why would I not enjoy it? It doesn’t have to be punishment. Why shouldn’t you enjoy it? Be productive, be good at what you do, but some joy goes a long way. Kudos to you, I’m just saying. Those grumpy Muppet old guys in the balcony. I had a guy once told me, and it’s probably because I called him out for being wrong on something pretty severe, but his clap back to me was, well, why don’t you just go do comedy? That’s all you want to do anyway. Whoa, whoa. What I do after I leave, that doesn’t make me bad at my, like, wait, what? I was like, you’re just angry right now that I totally called you out.

Dave: That says more about you than me, buddy, that you would go there.

John: No, it totally does. It totally does. It’s cool to hear that your manager’s like, let’s kick this up a notch, have you in the ditch. People are embracing this. How much do you feel like it’s on the organization to create that space for people to share their “ands” and shine a light on it? Or how much is it on the individual, maybe like you, to just not ask permission, but just go do it and start a little small circle amongst themselves?

Dave: Yeah, I think there’s a balance. If you want to have a good culture, you have to allow for the sources of joy and fun to come from different places, as long as there’s balance with people getting their work done. For me, what this has evolved to, I didn’t just start there. It grew into this tree that’s there now. Now, people actually come to me to help. When we need to do videos for work, official things that aren’t just like me doing funny stuff, they loop me in, and I help do that. That’s definitely not my job description. I didn’t start there. I had to feel my way through and then show my wares, if you will, and build my skills in this “and” because I was building that in a way that really overlapped with work quite a bit. It’s been fun. It’s been fun.

John: Outside of work, too. Yeah, that’s the hard part, is you see the Steven Spielberg ET. You don’t see his student films. You were growing in that and, and I love that, how there’s expertise beyond your Engineering degree that you’re able to now bring to the office that other people might have the same degree you have, and certifications, but they don’t have this expertise. They have expertise that you don’t have. It’s like, we should be able to share that. It makes you better at your job. That’s super cool to hear that I’m not just like a crazy person living in a bubble. It’s like, no, no, for real, people have expertise from these “ands”.

Dave: You’re not crazy, John. I hope that makes you feel better.

John: Right, right. Says the other crazy guy. No, I’m just teasing. That’s so perfect, and I love it. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe feels like, I’ve got this outside-of-work passion, but no one’s going to care, it has nothing to do with my job?

Dave: Well, I think I learned a lot along these lines from my daughter who’s in elementary school. You walk through any elementary school, and everybody is an artist, right? I think somewhere, as we become adults, we lose that. For some people, their art as cooking. My art when I was, I’m in my 40s now, but when I was younger, my artistic expression was more about athletics. I was a big basketball player. That was before I got into these other things. I think it’s healthy for everybody to have some form of expression that they find. I think it’s a healthy, well-rounded thing to access different parts of your brain, and I encourage everybody to find what that is for them. Whether that bleeds into their workplace in a really direct way, like me, or not is irrelevant. I think it’s just the healthy thing, to have a creative outlet.

John: Exactly. It doesn’t have to be direct, like you said. You could just talk about it indirectly.

Dave: Yeah.

John: Yeah. I’m not up, telling jokes in front of everybody. Here, here’s my new bit. No. It’s just people ask about what you do, and that’s a cool thing. That’s awesome, man. It’s baby steps for a lot of people and then see where it goes. Well, this has been so much fun, Dave. I feel like, since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, that I should turn the tables and make this the Dave Skuodas podcast. I’m all yours. Whatever you got, man, fire away. I’m all yours.

Dave: Yeah, it’s just what I’ve always wanted. This is great. I have done some keynote-speaking, and I’ve done some emceeing. I know that you get to do that. You get paid to do that, and I admire that so much. How did you get to where people will give you money to do that?

John: Well, it started with, and even crazier, people gave me money to do comedy, to make them laugh. Yeah, that’s really how I got started. That was my “and” when I worked at PricewaterhouseCoopers. Even in industry and the corporate jobs that I had, I was doing stand-up at night, similar to you, building that skill set. Then in May of 2005, that was my best deal day, my, I’m out. Who’s with me? No one. No one. Just me. Okay, cool. It was kind of a perfect storm but, yeah, gave it a go. I just learned the stage presence and all that from doing stand-up over 2,000 times, onstage. That’s definitely just a lot of reps.

I think, for regular people that aren’t as sick and twisted as I am and want to make life hard, a good way would be just to practice getting up in front of a small team meeting. Toastmasters is okay for if you’re nervous in front of people. I don’t personally like the toastmasters’ structure of things. I like it to be a little more organic and fluid as opposed to, it was a dark and stormy night. It’s like, whoa, hold on. I need to hear words from your face for a minute, so I can calibrate what’s happening before the train takes off.

The National Speakers Association is a great way, if you’re good at speaking, to make it a business. That’s a great way to meet some others that are doing the same thing. Then you start small with breakout sessions at conferences in your industry. What do I have to offer? What do I have to say that’s unique? That’s the difference between the breakout session speaker. That’s something that maybe people can Google, or it’s a little bit, oh, okay. It’s not really mind-changing. It’s more of like, okay, cool, I learned something.

The keynote is something that you can’t really Google. That’s when it becomes, setting the tone for the whole day or for the whole conference, and something that’s a little more unique, a little more of your own IP, a little more of your own flavor. You take that experience, but then you take this to another level. Where the audience also wants to go, is also a big thing because it’s, how does it apply to them, and you can do it too, type of thing.

Dave: You have to have a shtick, but then it has to be broad enough to apply to different types of audiences?

John: Or specific enough to apply really deeply within the engineering community. It’s like, in this day and age, you don’t need to be famous. You just need 100 raving fans and then you’re famous. There are tons of people that have never heard of Brian Regan, and he’s an amazing stand-up comedian. Then there are people that will travel to go see him do shows. It’s really just, what can I offer from my experience that will help other people shorten their route? Here’s a shortcut to make your life better, type of a thing. I don’t know if that helped you at all or if that — in a typical keynote fashion, I took as much time as possible to answer.

Dave: Well, I’ve seen Brian Regan in person, and he’s amazing. His Me Monster bit is just one of the funniest things I’ve ever seen.

John: Oh, yeah. Oh, so many, so many. He’s also a really, really nice guy, which is awesome.

Dave: Well, that’s great. That’s great. What, with having a career like you’ve developed for yourself where you get to be paid to do keynotes and doing emceeing, I don’t know if you still do comedy or not, but what’s the downside to it that people might be surprised? Because I’m sure it’s not all sunshine and rainbows. There’s got to be something that isn’t awesome about it.

John: Well, yeah, I don’t do the comedy clubs anymore. What’s not awesome about it is when 2020 happens, and then we have to go virtual. You’re doing a virtual keynote or something, and then it’s over. The screen just goes black. You’re like, I don’t know, was that good? I don’t know. How was that? I’m not sure. The chat was blowing up, so I think so. In-person is so much better because then you can deviate a little bit because you can feel off the crowd, because you’ve done it enough to know what’s going well, what’s not. Afterwards, you can talk to people, and you can see their reactions. You can know how it landed or what have you. That’s probably the hardest part.

Also too, it’s having to get 30 jobs. Imagine trying to get a new job and how not easy that is. You have to get one every two weeks or whatever. It’s just a lot of rejection. It’s just a lot of rejection. It’s a lot of people don’t email you back. It’s a lot of no. It’s like, all right. You really have to separate you as a person from you as a keynote speaker. They’re saying no to the keynote speaker or no to the message this year, but maybe it’ll play next year or the year after or the year after that. That’s the hard part is not taking it personally, but having done stand-up so long, I don’t care anymore.

Dave: Your skin is like inches thick. Oh, whatever.

John: Yeah. It’s hollow on the inside. It’s like, oh, okay.

Dave: I have experienced far worse than —

John: Exactly.

Dave: Email version of no. Yeah. I can relate to the virtual world is much less satisfying as a speaker because one of the benefits of doing something funny in a presentation is you get to hear people laugh. Otherwise, you can have great stuff, and people are nodding. It’s really connecting, but you don’t get any of that energy back as the speaker. I definitely miss that because you almost feel like a radio DJ sometimes, just talking into the blackness.

John: I don’t even know if anyone’s listening. Or when you watch a Netflix special or an Amazon comedy special, you don’t laugh out loud as much as you would if you were in the audience, in person, because you’re removed. We’ve got the screen, and it’s like, oh. It’s not a shared experience, and that’s really what I thrive off of and what I help create for groups. Virtually, I think I do a pretty good job at creating that, like I did for CASFM, but it’s just different. Yeah, so that’s definitely not fun, but sometimes you’ve got to do stuff that.

Dave: You’ve got to pay the bills.

John: Right, exactly. That’s the other part, when it’s fun to do but then when it becomes your job, then it becomes not maybe as — you’d still have to have another “and” then to fill that.

Dave: Yeah. Some work is work.

John: Yeah, exactly. Well, thanks so much, Dave, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This has been so much fun. I can’t wait to see more of your videos that you put out there.

Dave: Appreciate it, John. It’s been fun. Thanks for having me.

John: Everybody, if you want to see some of those pictures or videos that Dave puts out, or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 449 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And?” on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week, closing out 2021, is no different with my guest, Lei Testa. She’s the managing partner at Averett Financial in Fort Worth, Texas, and now she’s with me here today. Lei, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Lei: Thank you, John. I can’t tell you how excited I am to be here. I have wanted to do this since you and I met, and I found out you had a podcast. Thanks for having me.

John: Absolutely. This is going to be so much fun. Yeah, we met a couple of years ago when I spoke at a conference and then just stayed in touch and then here we are. This is going to be so much fun. I do have some rapid-fire questions, things I’ve never asked you before, and I probably should have when we first met, now that I think about it.

Lei: That might have been good to know.

John: Right? Here we go. Here we go. This is a good one. Favorite color.

Lei: Red.

John: Red. Okay. How about a least favorite color?

Lei: Brown.

John: Brown. Yeah, that’s a very unpopular color.

Lei: It is. Every now and then I’ll see a brown car, and I say, why?

John: Was it on sale? Did you steal it? Why do you have a brown car?

Lei: There’s a new color out now that’s like flat gray. It’s even worse.

John: Yeah, I have seen a lot of the flat colors lately.

Lei: Yeah.

John: How about more heels or flats?

Lei: Heels used to be, flats now. Just older. Yeah, but I love heels. If I could go back, I would.

John: Okay. Okay. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Lei: Favorite actress, Katharine Hepburn. Favorite actor, Gene Hackman.

John: Oh, yeah.

Lei: Followed closely by Tom Hanks.

John: Okay. No, great answer, answers, plural actually. Ooh, this is a tricky one. Chocolate or vanilla.

Lei: Chocolate.

John: Oh, yeah. You didn’t even think. You actually interrupted. Chocolate or chocolate. It’s chocolate. Whatever the order is, I don’t care. Chocolate or a billion dollars. Chocolate. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw.

Lei: Jigsaw.

John: Oh, nice. Okay. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Lei: Oh, yes. I can’t pick. I cannot pick. My dad and I watched Star Trek when I was a kid back when it was James Kirk. I love even the next gen Star Trek. Then Star Wars was when I was in high school. I love Star Wars.

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Lei: Anyway.

John: Okay, I’ll give you both.

Lei: It’s hard to differentiate from — yeah, to choose, choose.

John: How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Lei: PC.

John: PC. Yeah, me too.

Lei: I own a Mac at home, and I like Apple products. At work, you have to know how to use a PC.

John: Yeah, definitely. How about a favorite Disney character?

Lei: Oh, gosh. Oh, Cruella, the new Cruella. Have you seen it?

John: I have. I saw it on a flight recently.

Lei: Fantastic movie. I did too. Then I came home and made Frank watch it because it’s the backstory. Like Wicked is the backstory for the Wizard of Oz, Cruella is the backstory for 101 Dalmatians.

John: Exactly. You think it’s this evil person. Yeah, Cruella, that’s very good answer. Very good answer. How about more pens or pencils?

Lei: Oh, pens.

John: Pens. Yeah, same.

Lei: Especially fancy pens that you can do fun stuff with.

John: Right, right. Since you have the accounting background, balance sheet or income statement.

Lei: Balance sheet.

John: Oh, okay.

Lei: Yeah, I’m an auditor, and I’m an old school auditor. You audit the balance sheet, and the income statement falls out. I like the balance sheet. It’s tangible. You could put your hands on it.

John: Right? There it is. Okay. How about more of an early bird or a night owl?

Lei: Early bird.

John: Oh, yeah. All right.

Lei: Before, a night owl, but definitely an early bird.

John: Oh, before, a night owl. That’s hilarious. How about a favorite number?

Lei: 137.

John: Oh. Is there a reason?

Lei: It’s my name upside down. L-E-I —

John: Oh, you’re right. It is. Holy cow.

Lei: — is 137. I was playing basketball in high school, and we had a free throw. I was standing in the back court, and I could see the scoreboard. There was a minute 37 left in the quarter. I went, that’s my name.

John: That’s great. That’s so good. I love it. That’s so awesome. That’s so awesome. That’s the best reason I’ve ever heard for a favorite number, for sure.

Lei: Really? Oh, my gosh. Okay, we’re done.

John: It’s my birthday or… Nope, it’s my name upside down. Nailed it. That’s so good.

Lei: Bill could be 8177. You turn that upside down, it says Bill.

John: Right. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Lei: Audio version.

John: Oh, okay.

Lei: I’ve actually listened to your book three times.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Lei: Yeah. Just because I love the concepts, and I love that it’s you reading it. I love when authors read their own books. It’s great.

John: Thank you. Yeah, that was hard, harder than you think, especially when I wrote the book. It’s like, these are my words. It should be… Yeah. Well, cool. Thank you. All right. How about your first concert?

Lei: Foreigner.

John: Nice.

Lei: Yeah.

John: Okay.

Lei: Foreigner was my first big concert. I went to a concert with my parents, but I don’t really count that one. That was Barbara Mandrell and the Statler Brothers.

John: I think that’s how you have to say it actually.

Lei: It is. It is. That is how you have to say it. Then my first one that I went by myself was Foreigner.

John: Nice. Okay. All right. We’ve got two more. How about your favorite ice cream flavor?

Lei: Moo-llennium Crunch by Blue Bell.

John: Good.

Lei: Have you ever heard of it?

John: I have absolutely. Blue Bell Ice Cream is so good.

Lei: Yeah, it is.

John: The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Lei: My car. My Corvette. I love it. It makes me smile. Every time I go outside and see it and get in it and drive it. It’s wonderful.

John: That’s awesome. What color is it?

Lei: It’s white.

John: Okay.

Lei: It’s my very first non-red, purchased by myself vehicle. I share cars with my husband that he bought, and I love it. My last Corvette was red. This year’s model, it’s a 2014, which seems so old now, but it’s still a great car. The red that they had, I just didn’t like that color red. I saw the white one and just really liked it.

John: That’s so cool. That actually dovetails perfectly right in with your “ands”, obviously Corvettes being one of them, but also knitting, which is awesome. I’m not sure if I’ve had a knitter on the show yet, to be honest.

Lei: I’m the first knitter. Oh, my God.

John: Yeah. I’ve had all kinds of other crafters, but not knitting as the lead, for sure. How did you get started knitting? Was it something, as a kid, you did?

Lei: Yeah, it was as a kid. My grandmothers on both sides, mom side and dad side, both did handiwork, sewing, crochet, knitting, embroidery, all the things. One of them taught me to sew and embroider, and the other taught me to crochet and then knit. Growing up, I’ve knit things but little kid things, like the scarf. I graduated to a hat. I remember doing a ton of potholders. Remember those little things that your grandmother used to crochet on the end of a towel so you could loop it through a door? I probably made 100 of those things.

John: Okay.

Lei: When I was in high school, we moved, and our next-door neighbor was a prolific knitter. She knit garments. I never really thought about knitting something you could wear.

John: Yeah, beyond a hat or whatever, scarf.

Lei: Right, or a scarf. Yeah, but a sweater, a jacket, yeah, something substantial. I said, would you teach me how to knit a sweater? She said, sure, but we are not going to Walmart to buy the yarn. We have to go to the real yarn store, so save up your money. I did. I saved up my pennies, and we trucked over to Memphis. I grew up in Arkansas. We went to the big city. We went to Memphis, to the real yarn shop, and I bought real yarn. I picked out a super hard pattern. She said, okay, if you want to try it, you can do it. By doggies, I did. I made that sweater, and I still have that sweater today.

John: That’s awesome. I was going to say you should because that’s a lot of work that you put into that.

Lei: It was, absolutely.

John: It was a pattern. It wasn’t just a solid color. Wow.

Lei: Yeah. It was a pattern, and the pattern that I chose — a lot of sweaters, you knit in one piece. You knit from the top down or the bottom up. This, you made the pieces. I made a front and a back and two sleeves, and I had to put them together like you would sew a garment together.

John: Wow.

Lei: I made a mistake. It had cables. I don’t know if you know what cables are.

John: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Lei: Actually, I’ll give you a picture to put on with this episode.

John: Yeah, on the show page at whatsyourand.com.

Lei: There’s a mistake. I did not see the mistake until I was ready to put the thing together. I was like, I just give up. I quit. I quit. I don’t want to do it. She told me this story. Her name is Gay Bonner. She’s still a really good friend. She said, stop. There’s no reason to lose your marbles over this. She told me that she had heard that women, and probably men, that weave these beautiful, really expensive Persian rugs, which must take way more hours than I spent on my sweater, purposely weave in a mistake because they say only God makes things perfect.

John: Oh.

Lei: We don’t want to aspire to be like God, to pretend like we’re God, so we’re going to weave in a mistake. Plus, she said, nobody’s ever going to see it. Nobody’s ever going to go, there’s a mistake.

John: If they do, they’re not your friend. Get out of here.

Lei: Thank you. No kidding. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve worn that sweater, and nobody’s ever pointed out that there’s a mistake in my sweater.

John: That’s awesome. No, I love it. I love it so much. That’s so cool. Since then, you’ve been knitting and getting more adventurous on things to wear and things for other people to wear and all that.

Lei: All my family members have socks and sweaters and scarves and hats and all kinds of things. Yeah.

John: What is the difference between knitting and crocheting? Because you dropped it earlier.

Lei: I did.

John: I don’t necessarily know the difference. I feel like one has a hook or something, right?

Lei: Yeah, a crochet hook. Yeah. You just use one needle when you’re crocheting, and the traditional crochet method, you only have one live stitch. You just move from that stitch to the next stitch to the next stitch, and you only have one live stitch. When you’re knitting, all of the stitches are live. If you accidentally pulled your knitting needle out, all the stitches would be free to unravel.

John: Oh.

Lei: Yeah. It’s pretty cool. A T-shirt is actually a knit product, but the thread is just so teeny tiny. You would need to use microscopic knitting needles to knit it. Same thing with socks, socks are made with knit material. One of the cool things about crochet, if you ever buy anything that’s crocheted, it is handmade. There is no machine that can crochet. There are machines that knit, like this sweater was knit on a machine. Your socks were probably knit on a machine.

John: Okay.

Lei: Isn’t that cool?

John: Yeah, that is cool.

Lei: If somebody gives you something that’s crocheted, it’s handmade.

John: Yeah, and then you’ve got to find the mistake. No, no, I’m kidding. I’m teasing. That’s super cool, though. Do you have something that you’ve made, besides that first sweater, that’s been like, wow, this was a really fun project or something that I was really excited to do?

Lei: Absolutely. For years, I wouldn’t tackle socks. That was like a badge of honor for a knitter to say that they could knit socks because they’re pretty complicated.

John: Totally. I can imagine.

Lei: Yeah. I decided I’m going to learn how to knit socks. I didn’t want to take a class because I didn’t want to admit I didn’t know how to knit socks to all my knitting friends. I got on YouTube and found a pattern that was just a real simple pattern. Actually, I take that back. I did get the pattern, not on YouTube. I found the pattern at a knit shop in Portland, Oregon, called Close Knit. I’ll give Sherry a shout-out here. She said, this is a great beginner pattern. I still use that pattern today. Bought some yarn from her and then I watched YouTube and just followed the pattern. It was easy. My very first sock, I was knitting on one of the riverboat cruises in Bordeaux, France.

John: Nice.

Lei: Yes.

John: Okay.

Lei: On our trip was this lady from Great Britain. She had her Great British accent, and I had just finished my heel turn, which is a big deal in sock knitting, especially when you’re new. It’s kind of scary. She said, oh, you did a fine job on your heel turn. I was just so proud.

John: Right? Especially when it sounds like Mary Poppins is praising you.

Lei: Right. Yes, absolutely.

John: You’re like, I’m so good.

Lei: Thank you Mary Poppins.

John: Right? That’s awesome. I love it. Yeah, it’s just making things that you’re like, well, why not? Let’s give it a try. Worst case scenario, you unwind it and start over.

Lei: Yeah, absolutely. So, that first pair was for me, and I have probably knit all my family and some friends. Because you have to be knit-worthy. You have to prove your knit-worthiness before I’m going to spend 16 to 20 hours making you a pair of socks, which is about what it takes me.

John: Right.

Lei: I knit socks all the time now. I never don’t have a pair of socks on the needles because they’re so little. You can take them anywhere. A sweater or an Afghan or something, it’s big. It takes up a lot of luggage room. If I’m flying around or traveling around, a pair of socks is a great thing to take with me.

John: That’s awesome. Especially in your Corvette, then they fit just perfectly.

Lei: Yes, and I do knit in my Corvette. I do take my knitting. I live in Dallas/Fort Worth, and there’s never not a stoplight. I get stuck at a stoplight, I just pick up my knitting and knit until it’s time to go, and then off I go. I don’t get mad at all the stoplights. Why are you stopping me? I’m like, oh, yay, another row.

John: Right? That’s so impressive. I love it. Do you feel like there’s a skill set from the knitting especially, that translates over to your corporate career?

Lei: Yes, absolutely. Because you can’t just say, let me just whip out a pair of socks, or let me just knit up a sweater tonight, and it’s due tomorrow, right? You have to plan. You have to use your thought process. There’s lot of decisions around what you’re going to knit. What color are you going to use? Is it appropriate yarn for the type of pattern? Because if it needs to flow and have movement, just like a piece of fabric, it needs to have a certain type of yarn. The weight of the yarn is a decision you have to make. A lot of planning goes into it. What size are you going to make? Do you want ease where you’ve got some room to move around, like a sweatshirt? Or you do you want it to be like Marilyn Monroe-type sweater where you can see all the goodies? What’s your goal?

You have to have lots of thought and planning go into that, which is just what you have to do for accounting. If I’ve got a company, and I don’t want to pay a third of my earnings in tax to the good old US government through the IRS, I need to do some planning. Think about, what is this going to do to my outcomes, and how’s that going to impact me from a tax standpoint? How do I need to account for things? Do I need to count that as cost of goods sold? Or is that something that can reside on the balance sheet and not be an expense and hurt my EBITDA, if I’m trying to be nice and good-looking to an investor or a buyer?

John: No, I didn’t even think about that. I’m not just going to go make some socks. It’s like, well, yeah, what color, what pattern, what size, what kind of material, what kind of yarn? That’s tons of thought process before that. Plus, too, I imagine if you’re halfway through and you’re like, I made a mistake, halfway through a tax return; it’s like, well, fix it. This isn’t brain surgery where, I messed up, and game over. It’s, just start over, or unwind and go back to that and then start again.

Lei: You’re absolutely right. Knitting backwards is a thing, and we call it tinking, which is knit spelled backwards. I’m tinking. Or if you’ve really messed up and you’re just going to get the whole thing out, you rip it, rip it, rip it, and that’s called frogging.

John: Okay. All right.

Lei: I love the process of knitting. I love that, but something about having to tink or frog it just makes me angry. I do not like doing it.

John: Right, because all the work you put in to make it.

Lei: Yeah, I’m going to have to do it again. Maybe I should say, I get to do it again.

John: Right. I get to. It’s more practice, and it’s even better. Is knitting, is that something that you’ve talked about at work or with coworkers and clients?

Lei: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. In fact, there’s a blanket right there that people come and borrow my blanket. Can I borrow your blanket? I’m going to go in this conference room, and it’s cold. Yeah, absolutely. One of our employees was having a baby. His wife was having a baby. If he was, we’d be on the news.

John: Right. Right.

Lei: Anyway, his wife was having a baby, and one of our clients was making him an afghan. He’s like, oh, you need to meet Lei. She and I have become knitting friends and shared patterns with each other.

John: See? That’s just got to be a richer relationship than with maybe another client that we also have, type of thing.

Lei: Right. Absolutely. The fact that he got to say, hey, our managing partner’s a knitter. You should talk with her. I gave him some context to talk to our client about it.

John: Yeah, absolutely. It just creates a sticky relationship. That’s got to be more fun. Oh, hey, I get to talk to this client today. Instead of, I got to make five phone calls. Oh, the knitter. What? We’re in. You block out an hour. It’s going to be a while.

Lei: Oh, yeah.

John: That’s cool to hear. How much do you feel like it is on an organization to create that space for people to be able to share their “ands”; versus, how much is it on the individual to just create that little small circle?

Lei: I think it’s 100% on the organization. I feel like, oh, my goodness, listening to your book, I was like, that is so it. It’s so true. That when you create an atmosphere where people feel empowered to talk about their weekend, or to talk about their upcoming trip, or to share that they’re about to be an aunt or an uncle or a grandparent; what joy do you get to share. We spend so much time with each other, sometimes more than we spend with our family sometimes, during tax season, for sure.

John: For sure.

Lei: Yeah, absolutely. Why not get to know each other like that? It’s what makes people feel at home. It makes you feel like you’re truly part of your organization’s family, not just a part of the organization. I love it when I walk out in the hall and I hear our people talking about all the fun stuff they’ve got going on in their lives. We have a whiteboard where we write those kinds of questions that you ask me. You actually gave me some fodder for our whiteboard, so I can put some new questions up there.

John: Oh, that’s great. Then people write down their answers?

Lei: They do. Yeah, they do. Then they put their initials by their answers, so you can give them a rash if they’re answering different than you. Yeah.

John: Oh, that’s cool. I love that idea. It’s once a week type of thing?

Lei: Yeah. I don’t know if you know about the OU-Texas rivalry.

John: Oh, huge. A&M too.

Lei: Yes, but we’ve got an OU guy and a Texas guy. There’s always… The Texas guy writing in orange over the OU guy’s answer.

John: But it’s fun, and it brings some emotion to the office.

Lei: Yes, absolutely.

John: That emotion is great. I love it. That’s super awesome. Yeah, it is true, the tone at the top and creating that space to let people breathe and play in, rather than structuring everything and having to be so rigid. These are adults that are good at what they do. Treat them like adults instead of five-year-old toddlers.

Lei: Sarah and Joe, there are three partners, Sarah and Joe are married. They are the Averett. I’ve known them for a long, long time. When I joined the firm, one of the first things I got to do was plan the Christmas party. I became the fun Aunt Lei. Aunt Lei is the fun aunt. Then it was tax season, and I said, why don’t we get snacks for everybody during tax season? They’ve never done snacks before. Fun Aunt Lei is bringing us snacks during tax season. Then we started bringing in lunch on Fridays.

John: There you go.

Lei: I get to be the fun aunt.

John: That’s cool. Yeah. Well, it’s just bringing a wrinkle to what people expect, and it’s just a little bit different. I love that idea. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that feels like they have an “and” outside of work, hobby or passion that has nothing to do with their career or people aren’t going to care about it, they think?

Lei: Talk about it. Share your stories. Tell your funny stories. Tell people what you’re working on. I have even thought about, I should bring a couple more blankets up here just so people will have a conversation thing if they like. Bring a blanket into a meeting with the client. Hey, would you like one? Our managing partner makes these on the side.

John: Why not? Right. Exactly. Are you selling them? No, these are for the office. That’s cool.

Lei: Yeah, and it makes people remember you. If you have a conversation with them about what’s going on in their life and then they ask you what’s going on in your life, it just makes it so much more real, versus just talking about the numbers, good grief, poke and stick them. I don’t know why I went into accounting. I just think like an accountant, but I am not all about that.

Our clients love knowing about our people, and we love knowing about our clients too, and what’s going on in their lives. If I can encourage our people to talk to each other, then they become more comfortable talking with our clients. Our clients know who we are. We know who they are. That’s all more about life.

John: Yeah, which makes everything better. I love it so much, Aunt Lei, fun Aunt Lei. Before I wrap this up, I feel like it’s only fair that I turn the tables because I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning.

Lei: Oh, you did.

John: We should turn the tables and let you ask me whatever. This is the Lei Testa podcast. I appreciate you having me on as a guest. I’m all yours.

Lei: I confess, I took some of the questions that we’ve put on our whiteboard, and they’re going to be some of your questions.

John: Okay.

Lei: Okay. Thank you, John. Baseball or football.

John: Oh, football, for sure. Football. Yeah, it’s just more stuff happening. If baseball was six innings, then maybe. It’s like the middle three innings, for some reason, I get teleported out. I don’t even know what happened. They’re like, hey, did you see that home run in the fifth inning? I’m like, nope, because it was the fourth through sixth innings. I’m just like… Maybe the World Series is exciting because everything’s on the line now. A regular season baseball game for nine innings, it’s like, but yeah, football is always great, college especially.

Lei: Yeah. Oh, that’s fantastic.

John: For sure.

Lei: College or pro.

John: College football, hands down.

Lei: Okay. Yeah.

John: Easily. Yeah, for sure.

Lei: Beach or mountains.

John: That’s a tricky one only because I live in Denver, and I can, in my backyard, see the mountains. They’re right there. I feel like I’m a little bit spoiled in that regard. Beach feels like, I have to get on an airplane, and it’s a trip. It’s a vacation. I guess I might lean beach just because it means that I’m on vacation.

Lei: Got it. That makes sense.

John: Specifically, the Indian Ocean, a beach in the Indian Ocean.

Lei: Oh, I like that.

John: Yeah. The Indian Ocean is the best ocean. I will fight all the other oceans on that one.

Lei: No taking. I’ve never been to the Indian Ocean, so that may be a thing I need to add to my bucket list.

John: You can knit all kinds of stuff on a flight to the Indian Ocean.

Lei: Where in the Indian Ocean? Off the coast of Australia?

John: Zanzibar.

Lei: Oh, that sounds so exotic, Zanzibar.

John: Yeah, east side of Africa and then the Maldives, under India. Yeah. It’s just crystal blue and amazing and warm because it’s all tropical in the equator. Yeah, it’s great.

Lei: Awesome. Zanzibar. That sounds like a place I need to go. Any place that starts with a Z might be just for me.

John: Yeah, it is. It’s a cool place. It’s like, all right.

Lei: That’s really cool. Okay, dogs or cats.

John: Dogs, all day.

Lei: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, good dogs or bad dogs.

John: Oh, well, our dog has a little — he’s got a personality.

Lei: He’s got some bad dog in him.

John: Yeah. He’s not super well-trained. He’s trained enough, but he’s still a dog. It’s like, let kids be kids, sort of a thing. Yeah. He’s hilarious though.

Lei: Movies or books.

John: I’ll probably go movies on that, like fictional. I usually read nonfiction books. Plus, it’s just more efficient. I can knock this story out, an hour and a half or two hours. Reading the book’s going to be a couple of weeks.

Lei: Yeah. That’s why I picked audible books when you asked me. I haven’t figured out yet how to read and knit at the same time.

John: Right. Oh, there you go.

Lei: I can listen and knit at the same time.

John: There you go.

Lei: I can’t read and — okay. Yeah. You live in Colorado, right?

John: Yeah.

Lei: The mountains. Yeah. In Texas, we eat chili. Do you like chili with beans or without?

John: Beans, with beans.

Lei: Wrong answer.

John: I just got kicked off the show. Get out. Get out.

Lei: Crunchy or smooth.

John: Crunchy.

Lei: Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah, me too. Got to have some crunch in peanut butter.

John: Texture, yeah.

Lei: Yeah. Zombies or vampires.

John: I’ll go vampire, I think, on that one. That’s a good one. I hadn’t thought of that before.

Lei: I like vampires too. Lost Boys is one of my all-time favorite vampire movies. Yeah. M&M’s or Reese’s pieces.

John: M&M’s peanut.

Lei: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. This is kind of dumb on you, comedy or drama.

John: Comedy.

Lei: Yeah, yeah. Do you like any drama?

John: Yeah, I do. TV shows like Breaking Bad or something like that is great.

Lei: Oh, okay. That was going to be my question. Do you like light, or do you like dark?

John: Oh, no, dark’s great. Even like… I mean, it was still a comedy. I thought it was hilarious, but Jim Carrey did that movie, Cable Guy. It was super dark comedy.

Lei: Yeah. The Truman Show, I thought was funny, but it was also dark.

John: The same thing. That was maybe a drama, but I thought it was hilarious in parts. No, definitely, there is a time for drama, but I feel like if I’m going to sit down and be entertained, then funny is where it’s at.

Lei: Yeah, yeah. You asked me pen or pencil, which makes me think about school. How about recess or lunch?

John: Oh, that’s a good one. Yeah. Man, that is really hard. I think I’m going to go recess just because I feel like you can get away with more stuff at recess than lunch where there are more teachers watching you.

Lei: There are more eyes watching you at lunch. Yeah. I see how you are. I see how you are.

John: Exactly, exactly.

Lei: Okay, what about classwork or homework? Do you remember?

John: Oh, in class, classwork.

Lei: Me too, yeah.

John: Or on the bus, whatever. I’m not doing it at home.

Lei: I am not doing it at home. My goal was to be done by the time the bell rang every afternoon because I’ve got some play time to do.

John: Right. Exactly.

Lei: Okay, a sports car or SUV.

John: Sports car. The taller the vehicle, the dumber I look driving it.

Lei: Me too.

John: Which is weird because I’m tall.

Lei: Me too. I feel like I look like a dork driving a big, tall vehicle.

John: A pickup truck, I look like a complete idiot.

Lei: Okay, so which sports car? If you could have any sports car you wanted, what would it be?

John: Your Corvette. No, I’m just kidding.

Lei: Next time you’re here, you can drive it. I’m not driving it all the time.

John: I’ll just go for a ride. I’ll knit and then you drive. We’re double efficient.

Lei: Final question, store-bought or handmade gift to receive?

John: Oh, yeah, handmade. It’s just shows that you care, and you know what’s going on. It’s something for you, and I know that this is for you. Yeah, for sure.

Lei: Yeah. Awesome.

John: Very cool. Thank you so much, Lei, for taking time to be a part of What’s Your “And”? This was super, super fun.

Lei: It was. Thank you so much, John. I had an absolute blast.

John: Awesome. Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Lei in action or some of the things that she’s created or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 447 of What’s Your “And”? Happy Holidays, everybody. This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the places where they work because of it. If you want to hear this voice read the book to you, that’s right, me reading it, you can check out the book on Audible or wherever you get your audio books.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Ken Healy. He’s a partner with Diversified Financial Solutions in Connecticut, and now he’s with me here today. Ken, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Ken: Oh, of course. Thank you for having me.

John: This is going to be so much fun. I’m looking forward to it. I have my rapid-fire questions to get to know Ken on another level here. We’ll start with maybe an easy one. Favorite color.

Ken: Favorite color, blue.

John: Blue. Mine too. All right, we can keep going. How about a least favorite color?

Ken: Least favorite color, I’ll say brown.

John: Brown. Man, brown is just getting hammered. Brown is just the least favorite color just nonstop. I’m even going to just stop asking that because I know the answer all the time now. You’re right. It’s not great. How about a favorite day of the week?

Ken: Friday.

John: Friday. There you go. How about favorite toppings on a pizza? You’re close to New York. You’ve got to have a pizza favorite.

Ken: I like clam pizza, New Haven clam pizza.

John: Oh, okay. Clam pizza, there you go. That’s very good. How about chocolate or vanilla?

Ken: Chocolate.

John: Chocolate. There you go. I don’t know why I’m doing food right now. I must be hungry. That’s what’s going on. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw?

Ken: Sudoku. It’s the only one I could finish.

John: There you go. There you go. That’s awesome. Which is the perfect reason why that should be. That’s so good. How about cats or dogs?

Ken: We have a cat. I don’t know if I have a preference for either, but I know my wife will be upset if I don’t say a cat.

John: You will be homeless, Homeless Ken, if you don’t say cat. There we go. That’s fair enough. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Ken: Neither. I haven’t gotten into either of those.

John: There you go. That’s totally, totally honest. How about your computer — I know you for sure — PC or a Mac?

Ken: PC at work, Mac at home.

John: Oh, little ambidextrous there. I see what you’re doing. Okay.

Ken: Yeah.

John: All right. How about favorite Disney character?

Ken: I’ll say Mickey.

John: Mickey. Solid. Classic. There you go. How about books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Ken: I like the audio books. It’s easy for a car. I do like a real book in my hands, but most of the time, it’s audio book because that’s when I have time to listen and catch up on books.

John: Right? Yeah. No, I hear you on that one, for sure. How about a favorite number?

Ken: Favorite number, 17.

John: Yeah? Is there a reason?

Ken: I got married in 2017, so 17 is my favorite number.

John: There you go. It’s also an easy reminder. Oh, yeah, that. There you go. That’s awesome. Very good. How about your first concert?

Ken: First concert was 311 when I was at college.

John: Nice. There you go. Absolutely, man. How about, oh, this is a fun one as the accountant, balance sheet or income statement?

Ken: Income statement.

John: Income statement. There it is. Yeah. Are you more of a talk or text?

Ken: Most of the time, text.

John: Most of time, text.

Ken: More efficient, yeah.

John: Yeah, more efficient. Right. We don’t have to do the small talk, just get through it. There you go. Two more. How about your favorite ice cream flavor? I’m a huge ice cream junkie.

Ken: I like cookie dough chocolate chip.

John: Yeah, yeah. I was worried you were going to say clam ice cream. I was going, all right, that’s too far.

Ken: No, not with ice cream.

John: I don’t even know if that exists. Sounds weird to me. The last one, the favorite thing you have and the favorite thing you own.

Ken: The favorite thing I have, the favorite thing I own actually is probably the Bible. My wife got me a Bible when we started dating, and that has significance to me.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah, super meaningful and powerful. That’s great. That’s really, really good. Really, really good. Let’s talk. We’ve got two “ands” really, doing a lot of community service, which is awesome, and then also having some rental properties, doing some demo and remodel work on that as well. You want to start with community service? How did you get started in that? Was it something that you were doing from younger or you got into later in life?

Ken: Yeah, I think from younger. We have a pretty tight-knit town and a close community. I grew up in Naugatuck, Connecticut. I think I’m fifth generation Naugatuck. There’s a lot of opportunity. My father is one of ten, and the family’s been around for a long time in Naugatuck. It’s an interesting point, a lot of the people that are volunteering, and they’re really involved. There are two groups. There are some a little bit older and some a little bit younger. I’m kind of in between, so I’ve had some opportunities to be on some different community service organizations and have some leadership opportunities. It’s been nice. It’s been very rewarding. I find it to be very impactful in the town I’m in. I enjoy doing it. I’m getting off of a few of them and stepping down and letting other people step up, but there was a time I was quite involved with it and really enjoyed it.

John: Was there one that you were involved with that you feel made a bigger difference?

Ken: Yeah, I really feel my time with United Way in Naugatuck and Beacon Falls, I had a lot of opportunities, over the years, to do different roles and responsibilities. I think the impact that they have on the community has been really rewarding, and it’s been nice to spend a little bit different than other organizations I’ve been involved with. In our local United Way, there’s just over 27 programs and 17 partner agencies.

John: Holy cow.

Ken: It’s one place that if you give your money, they then go and vet the programs and see what their impact is in their community, and they allocate the money as they deem appropriately. I started to have an allocations committee. A group of people get together, and they review all the applications from these organizations and their programs. What I found to be unique is then the representatives in their programs will come in, and they’ll talk about it. They’ll answer questions. We have a chance to see what they’re doing in the community. If there’s less people participating, we ask why. Or if there’s more, we ask about what programs they have.

There’s a lot of back and forth and give and take. It’s nice to see and challenge them and get challenged and see what they see the need is. I’m always blown away. It usually falls during tax season on time, but I found that going and being with them and really seeing what the needs are in the community and how they’re impacted, you get to see a lot of programs that you know existed, but you didn’t really have the names or faces. Or sometimes they’ll bring representatives, Big Brothers, Big Sisters. They’ll bring someone that’s little, and they’ll bring their big. They’ll talk about their experiences. It was just really eye-opening for me.

John: Yeah.

Ken: That was my introduction to United Way of Beacon Falls. One year, I was able to chair the Allocations Committee because I’ve been on there a few years, and then I served as their campaign chair. For one year, I was helping raise the money. We had different events. I would oversee it. Most recently, I was president. I was working on a succession plan and having a future chairman lined up, or chairwoman or teams of chairpeople. It was interesting, over the last couple of years, they started a Mobile Food Bank in partnership with the Connecticut Food Bank.

John: Holy cow, man.

Ken: Once a month, there’s a place where people could come, no questions asked, anywhere in the community, no income questions. They just asked where you’re from, for demographics. People line up a couple hours ahead of time to go through. People go through and get all fresh food. People from the high school and schools volunteer to bring it out to their cars. It’s really grown and increased. Now there are wraparound services. There will be nurses from schools. There will be barbers, and people giving haircuts for back-to-school for kids.

John: Oh, wow.

Ken: It’s amazing to see. We do have a local food bank, but it’s only open a couple of days a week. This one’s at night. To see the people and to see who’s in need, and their thank-you stories. With COVID, a lot of people that, in the past, haven’t needed help, have been able to receive it. The United Way have received a lot of calls from people saying, “I’ve never been in this position. How do I even get help?”

Last year, the United Way, they started a COVID relief fund. They raised over $59,000, and a lot of people were able to collect unemployment. Their job had to be forced to be closed because of COVID, and it took a while for unemployment checks to roll out and different things. So there is money to help people recover their mortgage or their rent for a month or two, until this got going. It’s just amazing how, in a local community, all these things go on, behind the scenes. You understand that they do, but to get some names and faces and see it really in action. I really enjoyed my time with it and being part of it.

John: No, no, for sure. By being in that position, instead of volunteering for one of those charities, you’re impacting all of them that are then making such a huge difference in the community, and you see it immediately. Like you said, you’re volunteering there and then you hear the thank-you stories. You hear the impact. You hear the little from Big Brothers, Big Sisters, telling the story. That’s so moving, man. That’s really cool.

Ken: Yeah, and the programs are all across the board. We have a therapeutic riding center, and there are horses. People with disabilities or cancer survivor or people that are grieving could go and be on the horses. You go and see the horses, and you hear those stories. There’s another one that has after-school programs for kids, and to hear their needs and what they’re doing and what they’re doing positively. It’s really incredible in a small town to have all these things going on. It’s nice to get to meet those people and see that and experience that.

John: Yeah, that’s great, man. You’re going to be Mayor soon. This is awesome. Okay, maybe not, but that’s so great man. It’s cool to hear that it’s just making a difference. You can see it right away, its immediate impact, in a big way. That’s powerful, man. That’s really cool. Flipping it a little bit is the home remodeling. How did you get started with that? Was it just something that you watched some YouTube videos and were like, I can do this? How did that get going?

Ken: Watching some YouTube videos HGTV. Luckily, the firm I’m with, I’ve been with since I was 16. The owner of the firm, now I’m also an owner, but at the time, I was working for someone. He owned a bunch of rental properties, in addition to having their accounting practice. He’s fluctuated between 50 to 80 units, not buildings, but actual units, and a lot of them come to the office to pay their rent. If they need something fixed, they come, and we have people that could fix it.

Shortly after I passed my CPA, we and a couple others bought a building. It had 22 apartments in it, and I was to manage it. That really got my feet wet. I think in 15 months, we fixed and renovated about 15 of them, as people moved out for different reasons. The fortunate thing was it was all fixed up. We had some great people in there. Every time an apartment became vacant, people that lived there, say, hey, I’ve got someone that needs apartment. I’ve got a brother, I’ve got a sister, I’ve got a coworker, so they’re going to fill pretty quickly.

Someone else in the area that owned a bunch of properties liked it, made us an offer, and we decided to sell it and buy another one to fix up since they’ve been fixed up. I had just gotten it to the point where it’s getting easy to manage. They’re all fixed up and looking good, but it was a great opportunity. It was a lot of nights and weekends and a lot of work, but I really got to see it. They were just one-bedroom apartments, nothing crazy, but it’s amazing what a fresh coat of paint and carpet and having some nicer floors installed, the difference that makes and the people you get in there. Being there every week and taking care of the property and talking to people, what a difference it can make.

John: Yeah, and when it looks nice, people want to take care of it more.

Ken: Yeah, it’s funny. It was a little rundown when we bought it. I think those are the properties we like to find. There’s a lot of rumors that there’s some questionable activity, and there are issues. One of the first things we did, there’s a lot of tall bushes, the lights outside weren’t working, so we replaced that. We cut down the bushes. We increased the visibility. There are people dumping construction debris every weekend into the dumpster and filling it up, so we put a lock on that. Next thing you know, they’re going somewhere else to do all that kind of stuff because they’re looking for the easiest place to get in and out of. They were able to use this property for a long time and then it changed.

There’s a tow truck company that was down the street, and they will monitor it and watch it. If cars are unregistered or unlicensed, they’ll actually tow them, or if cars are parked improperly. Ironically, in Connecticut too, you can’t renew your registration, if you have back taxes or child support or other things. The tow truck company, they don’t charge you. They pitch it as they’re cleaning up the neighborhood. They’re able to see if these licenses or the license plates are registered or if there are issues. If they tow them, the money has to correct your issue, and then you have to pay them to get your car back. After that started, a lot of people started parking on the streets because they’re less likely to have an issue on the street, but they know if they parked in our parking lot and their cars or the tags are expired, that they would have issues with the tow truck company.

John: Yeah, yeah.

Ken: A lot of little things but then once you get some good people in there, it’s incredible. There were good people in there before. Don’t get me wrong.

John: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Ken: It’s just word of mouth. As soon as, people are asking us, do we have an apartment available? Let me know. We want to have somebody come in here that we know.

John: That’s cool, man. Yeah, and you’re doing some of that work. Pulling up carpet is, that’s some work, man.

Ken: Yeah, we’re pulling up carpet. I realized a lot of them, they definitely need to be replaced, so it was nice. It’s a lot easier for people to maintain, going forward. If there’s no carpet, they can always put down a rug or do what they want. It looks good. It looks a little bit nicer. A fresh coat of paint, it really makes a difference. It doesn’t have to be anything fancy, all these special colors. Just white sometimes is just enough to brighten it up, and you really attract some good tenants. It was fun. We’ve done other properties, and we still have some now. It’s been fun.

It takes some work because with workers and different things, you have to keep on top of them and keep them on a schedule. Especially if you’re fixing up an apartment, the flooring has to get done, the painting. If you’re doing new cabinets in the kitchen, then you’re doing granite countertops, which we tend to do because they tend to last forever. There’s a sequence in things, and if one gets behind, everything else does. What I realized is that me doing things was probably the worst thing because it took me longer than if I just paid, but I thought I was trying to prove my worth and prove that I’m able to manage these things. I’ll save them money. If it took three or four weekends for me to get something painted, it would have been worth just paying someone to get it painted and get somebody in there that much sooner.

John: Yeah. Typically, for me, I do it once. I’m like, yeah, you know what? That’s worth paying for, next time. I don’t need to do that again, type of a thing, because just like you said, it just takes three times as long, and it’s not as good. It’s like, whatever. Well, that’s cool, man. You’re rolling sleeves, getting into it. That’s awesome. Do you feel like any of that gives you a skill that you bring to work that makes your accounting career better?

Ken: Yeah, I think it’s helpful in dealing with business owners. At that time, I wasn’t a partner yet in the company, equity partner. When you have property, and you have a mortgage, and you have to deal with tenants that are late, or you have to make decisions on whether or not a property’s worth buying, and a lot of business owners own property. They rent it themselves, or they have other tenants. When you’re navigating that, it does give you a little bit more confidence that you’ve done it and you know these things. You start to know what’s normal in this area, and what they could expect for rent, what the renovations truly will cost and what the taxes are going to be.

I did find it helpful. Just with every business owner, you’re paying rent, or you’re thinking about buying your own building. What are you looking at? What are you going to pay? Is it affordable? Does it make sense? How much are you going to pay yourself in rent? Even tenants, you deal with different issues. You deal with evictions and potential evictions and people that are late. How are you going to deal with that?

I try to be at the properties every weekend. I like to hear what’s going on. I like to hear what they’re saying and what the problems are, what the perceived problems are and how to address it and to talk to people and help them from getting themselves in bad situations if they get a little bit behind. Sometimes they get too far behind and then that’s not good for anyone. You could have those discussions. You can start paying every week or every two weeks. If you miss that and a month goes by, then it’s going to be really hard for these people to catch up.

A lot of them come to our office. It’s a two-way street. They know where we are. We’re not hiding. We’re not avoiding phone calls. I know when I’m there. I’m there every weekend, and they see me. They’re talking to me. I know what’s going on. I say, if there’s something wrong, let me know. I want to fix it. I don’t want there to be issues. I think they realize that, you do have to pay rent, and you do have a nice apartment. On the flip side, when there are issues, we’re going to address it and address it quickly, and I think they have respect for that.

John: Yeah. That’s cool to hear that you’re in person. In this day and age of sending text messages or nothing in person, it’s like, no, no. I’m here, and you know where I’m at. If you need something, I’m actually helpful and trying to make it better. Because some landlords, they don’t care. I lived in New York City for a long time, and I had some of those. It’s brutal. Then on the community service side, I would imagine that just having a better sense of community as a whole has to be some sort of a skill or a mindset that helps you with your work.

Ken: Yeah, and especially in our area, we’re able to — a lot of business owners are involved. They volunteer to help financially. They go to different events. You start to make these connections. When you have clients, and they have needs, and they’re looking for a bank loan, or they’re looking for refinance, they’re looking to buy a property, you know that you have a lot of great connections. There’s a lot of great people in the community that you can make those connections. It’s satisfying. You get referrals, and there are referrals back. It’s nice to be part of that. We have some older accountants and CPAs but not a lot of young ones, so it’s nice to get referrals from other ones that aren’t taking business on or different things and to see their businesses grow.

Because I will say to a lot of them, please, especially the bank, if they need help, send them to me. I’m glad to meet with them and consult with them. I want to see them succeed. I don’t want people to go in, they see a restaurant, and a year later, it’s a different name. A year later, it’s a different name. I don’t want people to fail. I want them to know what they’re going into and go into with open eyes. You work hard, but let’s make sure that this model makes sense before we get into it. We don’t want to find out a year later, and you’ve accumulated debt and everything else, that’s bad for you. It’s bad for the community. I think people could tell if you’re genuine, if your heart is in it for the right reason, and I think that helps make our community stronger.

John: Yeah, for sure, man. I love how you said a cool byproduct of this is referrals and work and connections that make other business happen. You’re not involved with the United Way before that. You’re making the community better, but then along the way, oh, wow, look, it makes me better at my job. It makes the firm better. You’re able to make a bigger difference, which is cool. Rarely do people think of these outside-of-work passions as making work better, but it clearly does. That’s cool, man.

Ken: Yeah, and it’s nice too, because with the rental properties, we have different issues. A lot of clients, we can hire to either repair them, fix things, inspect new properties we’re doing to insure our properties. My grandfather was an insurance agent in town, and my uncle and cousin took it over. I also have a good friend that’s an insurance agent at a different company. At the time, we had three or four buildings insured with one, insured with another. It’s nice to be able to spread it out a little bit. I can’t give everyone 100%, but it’s nice. I don’t have to pick and choose between my cousin who I’m really close to and my other good friend who works at a different agency. It’s nice to be able to have them help us and to be able to use our clients for a ton of different services that all these properties require.

John: Yeah. That’s great man. That’s super cool. Super cool. It sounds like it’s cool that at your firm, talking about these “ands” is normal. People know. They share. Obviously, when you were 16, you saw the owner of the firm have tenants come in to pay rent, so it’s what we do. How much do you think it is on the organization to create that space for people to be able to share these other sides to who they are? Or how much is it on the individual to just get it going in a small circle?

Ken: I think it’s a combination because our staff is great if a tenant comes in. We have two offices, and for the other office, they’re great at addressing and putting in those requests. If it’s a small minor repair, something like that, they’re able to handle it, which is really above and beyond the call of duty. Even with the charity work, a few of us are very involved with different organizations in town. When there are events, we all try to attend, and we try to support each other. We try to embrace those roles. We try to split up the organizations were part of so that we could spread our talents and our skills amongst the different communities. It’s nice.

I think it’s important for the companies to support that, and the people in their endeavor. Luckily, the company I’m part of and I own is supportive of that. I think it betters us overall. I know there are definitely times in tax seasons when there are complaints about, hey, I got to get something fixed. You said the person was going to come or the plow guy’s late or something. We’re calling. We’re trying to get things going.

Some times are better than others, but on the whole, I think it’s not too much of an inconvenience. People are really gracious on how to handle things. Sometimes the tenants don’t even want to talk to me. They want to talk to Kristen because she handles things so well. If it comes to me, I might not call them back till later in the day. It’s nice to hear those things. So it’s nice to see a company that supports it.

John: Yeah, for sure. Plus, it gives you something to talk about, besides just the spreadsheet or the tax return or the work. It’s cool to have a connection that lets you know each other on just a little bit of a deeper level, type of thing.

Ken: Yeah, we get some messages and some things and people laugh about, or some calls, and some issues we’ve had to resolve. Sometimes we are able to laugh about it. I know other people that manage rental properties, and they kind of do it all themselves. It can be stressful. It can be stressful when someone’s not paying rent. It can be stressful when you get some calls that are challenging. You try to just quickly resolve it and move forward.

John: Sure. Yeah, and there’s always something new. It’s probably similar with work where somebody comes in with some tax issue. It’s like, well, I’ve never seen this one before. Here we go. It’s a good muscle to exercise outside of the office, to just be nimble. There’s no handbook for this one, but I’m pretty sure we can figure it out.

Ken: Right.

John: That’s cool, man. Very cool. Do you have any words of encouragement for anyone listening that maybe has a passion outside of work and maybe even a charitable volunteer type thing that has nothing to do with their job, they think no one’s going to care?

Ken: Yeah. I would say my advice to them is pursue your passions. They’re important to have. We need to balance our work. I think that’s part of the reason why I enjoy doing this so much after tax season. All those hours, then the weather gets better, I could go out to the properties and fix them up and throw some mulch down and do some outside work. I think it’s good for our mental health. It’s good to balance. I know, especially accountants, there are seasons and times that we just work incredible hours. That’s just the nature of the business, but I think that will help give you balance. It’ll help you persevere through those challenging times. I think surrounding yourself with people that have the same interests is incredibly important to all these organizations, to all the rental properties. I’ve met great people that I would have never met unless I had pursued these passions.

I think, especially if it’s productive, especially if it’s helping others or impacting others, what I like about the rental properties is just instant gratification. If something’s wrong, if somebody moves out, and you’re able to fix it and clean it up. You can see fairly quickly within a month, how much better it looks. You get a great tenant in there, and they’re appreciative. If you’re doing something, especially if it’s productive or positive, they do take up time. You have to sacrifice in other areas sometimes for these, but you don’t want to look back and have regrets. You want to be able to know whether you pursued them with your whole heart and passion.

I think everyone needs to find that thing that when you talk to, their eyes light up. That’s the thing that they, when you talk to, you know that that’s just something they enjoy, and it gets you out of bed on the morning. On a weekend or at night, after work, you could swing by those things. Everybody has passions. You have your careers. That pays the bills. That fulfills us in other ways, but you have to find what really is your passion, what does excite you. It’s important to have those. You want something that you’re excited about in the morning to get out of bed and do.

I’m fortunate my wife and I, we bought our own house last year. We’re living in one of these multi-families and saving up. We’re doing a lot of repairs, and I didn’t realize how much more time it takes to do these types of things at your own house because it’s a different level of how you want things fixed up. You don’t just find the easiest solution, so you can get somebody in there, get something fixed, but it’s nice. It’s gratifying. We have these connections with these people, and they’re able to help us and fix things. We know what solutions work and what doesn’t. It’s nice when it comes back. It’s nice to be able to put the care into the house and enjoy with my wife and all that.

I think a lot of times, we find the benefits of having these passions and how they do help you at home and all these different things. You’re in a better state of mind. You’re in a better mental health. There are also skills and different things you take on, and you feel good about doing this, especially if you have someone. My wife, she supports me on this. I try to support her in her passions. It’s nice. We complement each other and do a lot because of that.

John: That’s awesome, man. That’s so good. Yeah, and it’s just fun to talk about, for you, and then people care. It’s just fun to share. That’s so cool to hear, man. Well, I feel like before we wrap this up, it’s only fair that I turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Ken Healy podcast, since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning. I’m all yours. What have you got?

Ken: All right, the first one. I got my Master’s degree at Notre Dame. We’re filming this a little before the Holidays, so I want you to predict the future. What bowl game are we going to be in, in a couple of weeks?

John: Oh, wow. Yeah, so this is before. Definitely, a New Year’s Six bowl, but I could see us getting in the playoffs. I could see us sneaking in. There’s a lot of teams that have lost. We’re starting to finally play as a team. The beginning of the season was like awkward adolescence where we’re trying to figure out how things work, and got it together. Yeah, I think we could sneak into the playoffs. Otherwise, it’ll be like a Fiesta Bowl or an Orange Bowl type of thing. Although the Rose Bowl would be pretty sweet because we haven’t been there in forever. Supposed to be there last year but then because of COVID and all that, got bumped to Dallas. Yeah, I think one of those New Year’s Six.

Ken: Perfect. You mentioned before that you liked some things on the East Coast. You’ve been near Connecticut. What are your favorite cities in and around Connecticut?

John: I remember Ridgefield, Connecticut. There’s a theater there where I did some comedy shows. I think it’s the Playhouse. I think they call it the Ridgefield Playhouse. Yeah, so I’ve done some shows there, really cool, very quintessential New England type of city. It’s called the Playhouse for crying out loud. What more do you need? That’s a cool city. My mom actually went to high school in Danbury, Connecticut.

Ken: Oh, okay.

John: That’s going to be on there. Yeah, those will probably be the two in Connecticut that come to mind, as far as when I visited, I was like, wow, this is kind of a cool city, type of thing, or with my mom having a connection there.

Ken: Our other office is Southbury which is right outside Danbury.

John: Oh, okay.

Ken: Very close.

John: I guess having moved around so much, growing up and everything, helps me relate because I don’t know how many people have been to Connecticut, to be honest. It’s kind of cool. Thank you so much, Ken, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? and taking time to do this.

Ken: Thank you for everything you do. I think it’s making quite a change in the profession. I think it’s really important and needed.

John: Well, thanks, man. Go Irish, right?

Ken: Yeah, absolutely.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Ken outside of work or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 445 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth into the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Shannon Weinstein. She’s the owner of Fitnancial Solutions, a digital accounting practice serving small business owners all over the country, and now she’s with me here today. Shannon, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Shannon: Yeah. Thanks, John. Thanks for having me.

John: This is going to be so much fun. I have, get to know Shannon out of the gate here, 17 rapid-fire questions. This will be fun. Here we go. Star Wars or Star Trek.

Shannon: I’ve seen neither.

John: Okay. Okay. Fair enough.

Shannon: I’m criticized for that daily by my husband.

John: That’s awesome.

Shannon: Impartial. I will piss off someone if I say one of them, so, impartial.

John: That’s true. That’s true. Although the Star Trek fans can’t beat you up. No, I’m just kidding. Only because I’m a Star Wars. How about a favorite day of the week?

Shannon: I’ll say Friday.

John: Friday. Okay. Nice. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Shannon: PC.

John: PC. Yeah, me too. How about on your mouse, right click or left click?

Shannon: I guess, left click?

John: Left click, making the decisions. That’s where it’s at. Yeah. Just pick this. All right. How about a favorite Disney character?

Shannon: I will say Megara from Hercules.

John: Oh, nice. That’s, yeah, the first time I’ve gotten that one. Good answer. Good answer. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword or jigsaw puzzles?

Shannon: I loved those logic puzzles where you had to decide what kid had what pet. Remember?

John: Oh, right.

Shannon: The box and the grid.

John: It’s like the matrix sort of a thing. Yeah.

Shannon: I loved that. I probably attribute most of my critical thinking skills at work to playing those as a kid.

John: That actually makes sense. Right? Yeah, because they would give you five sentences, and then you had to fill in all the things. Awesome. Yeah, you’re taking me back. All right. How about a favorite color?

Shannon: I’ll say teal.

John: Teal. Solid. Okay. How about a least favorite color?

Shannon: I’ll say brown.

John: Yeah, very unpopular color. I’m not even sure why it’s a color anymore. It’s so unpopular. I joke that I think brown’s just around so the color looks good.

Shannon: It’s so unpopular that M&M’s covered it up on all of them.

John: Right? That’s dead-on accurate. You can’t even argue that. Here we go. Favorite actor or actress? The Rock. Okay. Yeah, he’s super fun. Super fun. How about talk or text?

Shannon: It depends on what you’re trying to say. I am definitely easier to get in touch with via text.

John: Okay. All right. All right. How about diamonds or pearls?

Shannon: I’ll say diamonds.

John: Okay. All right. All right. How about, since you have the accounting background, balance sheet or income statement?

Shannon: Can I go statement of cash flows on that?

John: Oh, that’s the hardest one of all. No one even knows how to do it.

Shannon: No. No one knows how to do it. No one knows how to use it, but I think it’s the most useful one of them all.

John: Oh, it’s totally the most useful. Now that there’s computers, you just go to Reports print, and there it is, cash flow statement. Oh, that was my nightmare in college, for sure. Here’s a fun one, first concert.

Shannon: Oh, that was TLC.

John: Yes.

Shannon: And the original Destiny’s Child opened for them.

John: What?

Shannon: Yeah.

John: That’s nuts. That is crazy. Oh, my goodness. That is super awesome times two.

Shannon: Yeah, I got to see LaTavia and LeToya. Who can say that?

John: Right? That’s so good. That’s so good. I saw No Doubt open for Live. Everyone’s like, who’s this No Doubt band? Now, no one’s heard of Live.

Shannon: I’m calling that my first concert. I’m not counting Raffi when I was three.

John: Well, that doesn’t count. Yeah, that doesn’t count. Right, right. How about a favorite number?

Shannon: A favorite number? Nine.

John: Nine? Okay. Just because. All right. Yeah, that’s a good one. How about books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Shannon: Audio book. I listen to them on walks all time. Otherwise, I have no time to read.

John: All right, two more. Chocolate or vanilla.

Shannon: I’ll say vanilla.

John: Vanilla. All right. Yeah, yeah. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Shannon: My dog.

John: What kind of dog is it?

Shannon: He’s a red doberman.

John: Oh, nice. Very cool. Very cool. That’s awesome. Let’s talk fitness and everything that I don’t do. I’m a terrible person. How did you get just so into fitness? At what point did that happen? How did this all get started?

Shannon: Yeah, I ask myself that all the time actually. When did that happen? Because growing up, we were definitely like a Happy Meal family. Growing up, we were just, ate out all the time, got takeout, didn’t really pay attention to what we were eating. It was just a very lax, lazy type of approach. This was also in the ‘90s, where I’m pretty sure we ate chicken nuggets made of God knows what, TV dinners. We didn’t have the whole foods access that we have now.

John: Exactly.

Shannon: We ate a lot of, pretty much garbage, growing up, and didn’t do a lot of exercise. It really wasn’t a thing that was part of our lifestyle as a family. What I realized was, after I graduated college — the first time I set foot in a gym was in college, and I didn’t like it. It felt like a chore. It felt like a pain in the butt. What happened was my mom convinced me to go to my first ever Zumba class after I graduated college when I was living at home for about a year. She convinced me to go to this class, and I was like, this is silly. This is like old people, Jazzercise, Richard Simmons type of stuff. Because it kind of was. It was goofy. It was kind of cheesy when it first came out.

A couple of years later, I’m living in Boston at the time. I joined one of these women’s gyms, and I went to the Zumba class. I don’t know when it happened, but I was hooked after two or three classes. Because I took hip hop dance when I was younger and I was all over the structure of the class, learning the moves, it was easy to follow. I just lost myself in it where I was like, that was an hour already? We didn’t have the watches at the time, but I look at my heart rate monitor or whatever, and go, oh, my God, that was 500-something calories.

I did it because I loved it, and I found a great community in those classes, and met great people. We became friends around the classes. That’s the thing with fitness is you have to find your people or your thing that you’re happy to go to and look forward to. It was like people who go to church together or people who volunteer together. We went to dance together. I fell in, absolutely, love with it.

I also became an instructor. It turns out, I became an instructor, six months after I really started taking classes, three, four, five times a week. I was obsessed. The interesting part is I became an instructor in about August, September. My father passed away in December from pancreatic cancer. Why I’m telling you this is because, on his deathbed, literally told me, “Shannon, never get sick. Take care of yourself.”

John: Oh, wow.

Shannon: I hung on those words ever since. I was like, okay.

John: Yeah, seven days a week, I will do this.

Shannon: Yeah, orders received. I started eating better. I lost about 40 pounds. I just got my mind right and said, this is my life. I don’t want to end up like that. I don’t want to be a victim to things that happen to me. I want to take control of my own health. That was when I really pivoted into it.

John: Well, that’ll be a spark. That’s for sure. It’s so awesome that you found something that, the dance background that you so enjoyed, and it was fun and energetic, and then the community. Yeah, why not? I’m going to come anyway, so you pay me to do this. I’ll be the instructor.

Shannon: Yeah. I didn’t even think I was going to teach. That was almost eight years ago. I didn’t think I was going to teach ever, but they were like, just sign up for the thing so that you can come to the events with us. Because I was the only friend that was outside the gate that couldn’t get in.

John: Okay.

Shannon: You need to be an instructor to go to certain events and conventions and things. They were like, sign up for it so that you can come to all the stuff with us. I was like, okay, cool. I also love this. This will be fun. I’ll learn how to teach, but I’ll probably never teach. Eight years later, here I am, multiple formats and modalities, multiple trainings, and teaching other people. It’s crazy.

John: Yeah, you probably left all of them. They’re all at home eating pizza and ice cream. You’re like, I have Fitnancial. I actually named my firm that.

Shannon: Exactly, and I did because when I created my own business, I was serving my fellow fitness professionals with accounting and tax services. That became my industry and my expertise. I started marketing and actually using fitness analogies in everything I do. I still do to this day.

John: So good.

Shannon: I use it to explain very simple financial concepts to people because it actually is a very similar discipline.

John: That’s incredible because that’s a differentiator. Someone else can come in and provide small business advice or accounting or whatever, but I know how your business is and words that you like to use. I actually get you as a person. Why not let them know that side of you? That’s awesome. Was there ever a part that you thought, well, this isn’t work-related, never shall the two touch?

Shannon: Oh, no, I loved it. I actually would integrate a lot of it. I invited all my coworkers to my classes knowing they would never come, but I made it very well known that, I have class tonight, or I have class this morning, and I’m coming from the gym or I’m doing — I would say, I need to leave early today to go teach class. When Shannon has to go teach class, it was almost like I have an MBA class. It was no different than I have to go, and I have class tonight. Because that was a priority and that was a boundary I set to say, on these days of the week, I have to go teach. It was also a great way of seeing alignment in values with a company because I say, if me leaving for a half hour early on a certain day of the week, comes between me doing my job or not, then I don’t think you understand.

John: Me as a person.

Shannon: Right. You don’t think I’m going to get it done. I just loved integrating the two. I also did sessions at work for other coworkers. I actually led weekly walks to just get our asses out of the office and go do a walk around the campus. We were working in an office park, and I would do a walk around the campus and get everyone just to get out of their chairs, and do walking meetings together. Instead of like a big staff meeting, let’s just all go for a walk and talk while we’re there. We would get a mile and a half done every week. It’s something better than nothing, but we get a mile and a half done.

I would do stretch sessions at your desk, if you’re stuck all day. What do you do with your shoulders? How do you stretch your wrist, stretch your… They found that valuable. They also knew that Shannon was the, not the fit one, but the one that was fitness-focused. I actually had a coworker who, funny enough, bought a cheesecake at the cafeteria and was sitting across from me. She looked like she was covering her test, and I would cheat on her with the cheesecake. I was like, what are you doing? She’s like, I don’t want you to see what I’m eating. I’m like, I don’t judge any —

John: I’m not your mom.

Shannon: No. I probably have my own piece. It was funny because that became part of my brand was knowing that I love this stuff. I love dancing. I love — because why hide that? That’s part of who I am.

John: Right. No, no, I totally understand. I was the same way. I joke that I was too dumb to know that you’re not supposed to. You asked me what I did over the weekend. Well, I went and did this comedy show. All of a sudden, it’s wildfire, type of thing. Do you feel like there’s a skill that translates from the exercise and the fitness, over to make you a better professional?

Shannon: 110% yes because — if you talk about it from the perspective of in fitness as an instructor, for sure, because I had to teach a bunch of people who didn’t want to do what I was telling them to do.

John: Oh, wow. Yeah. You’re right.

Shannon: You tell 30 people to do burpees when and how many, and they just do it. You also — here’s the thing. When they just do what you say blindly, you don’t get an ego about it, but you get used to like, I command you do it. It’s like a Simon Says thing. What’s funny is — you can also jokingly be like, pick it up, let’s go, Carol, let’s go. It’s so funny because you get out so much of that, what you want to say, and it brings out your personality. It makes you show up differently with high energy. It also, what’s so funny is, when you get used to people doing what you say, you actually develop a confidence because they listen to you. They do what you say. Now you go into work. You’re like, we’ve got to get this done. It’s so funny because you show up with more confidence because you’ve been — you know this in comedy — you’ve been told yes without being told yes.

John: Right. Exactly.

Shannon: A lot. When you’re told yes a lot, you show up differently with confidence. Whether they’re actually saying yes, I will do that; the fact that they’re doing it, what you say, it instills all that confidence in you.

John: Yeah. For me, it was like, well, this can’t be any worse than doing a joke and no one laughing. This can’t be worse, but you’re exercising this muscle outside of work that then when you get into work, it’s like, oh, I got this. I do this all the time. This is great. You have to lead a group. You have to help guide them.

Shannon: Also, it was really a coping mechanism too, of, don’t worry, because I get the dance at the end of the day, at the end of all this stuff that I put up with at work. I stopped taking work so seriously because it wasn’t my only thing anymore. It didn’t bring me joy. I just said, you know what, we’re going to tolerate this. It’s going to pay the mortgage. Then we’re going to go home. We’re going to go dance, and we’re going to be happy. That’s it.

John: The more that you’re able to share that side of you though, then the more joyful work gets. You create connections with people at work where you’re like, wait, you like to do that? I like to do that. What? I didn’t even know, sort of a thing.

Shannon: Yeah. I’ve met a lot of people who have the same hobbies or found out that they have the same — it’s multidimensional. It’s not even just one or two things that mark you in a personality resume of, what do you like to do in your free time? We were just talking before you hit record about these bland corporate bios that are like, in her spare time, Shannon likes to spend time with family and her dog and go for walks. It’s like, great. Who doesn’t like that? What else does she do? What was the last thing that made her laugh really hard? What was the… I love asking questions. Instead of get-to-know-you things, I’ll say something like, hi, I’m Shannon, nice to meet you. What’s your name? Oh, it’s John. What are you grateful for? It’s a pattern interrupt.

John: It’s deep.

Shannon: Yeah, I know. We should be able to come up with something quickly like that. It’s a pattern interrupt. It also leaves a mark and keeps things memorable for you.

John: Yeah. I love that. That’s so good, so good. How much do you feel like it’s on an organization to create that space, to find out what people’s “ands” are, to shine a light on them, to celebrate them and make it normal? Or how much is it on the individual to just start that from the bottom in their little circle?

Shannon: I think it’s a mix of both. I think it’s also the corporation or, let’s say, the company or department, depending on what the structure is. It’s their duty to foster it and not let it die off and not discourage it. If someone is showing up with that type of attitude, and they’re trying to foster an environment like that, this is what happened with me when I started my walks. My department 100% backed it up. They were like, go on Shannon’s walks, this is great. They highlighted it and recognized it as a great initiative that I was doing. They promote — when we were talking about different stories, you do have to be forthcoming. I think the people who do have more of that extroverted “tendency” would probably have to be the first ones to speak up and share something like that and make sure it’s known that there’s a safe space to share, what do you do outside of work?

John: Right.

Shannon: Because I think there’s just this hard line we think is drawn that, well, we don’t talk about our personal lives at work, which, fine, to each their own. I think there’s something to be gained by getting to know your coworkers and people in general at a different level and finding commonality because I feel like it just brings you together a lot faster.

John: It definitely does. There’s research at Duke that shows it’s less anxiety and less depression, if you have these other dimensions to who you are. Northwestern has a study that shows that if you combine real life and work life, better moral decisions. It just makes you a better professional.

Shannon: Yeah.

John: It’s just cool to hear that you witnessed that, and also that there’s Shannon’s walks. You didn’t wait for permission from corporate on high to say, we’re going to do walks. You just, hey, we’re doing walks. I don’t need approval. This isn’t North Korea. We can just go on walks, and then you go. We’re always waiting for permission. It’s like, just go do it, and then everyone’s going to think it’s awesome. So many times, I’ve heard this. Yeah, it’s just so cool to hear that you did that. Kudos, for sure. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that feels like, well, I’ve got this hobby, but it has nothing to do with work, and no one’s going to care?

Shannon: I would say, if you have a hobby that you’re truly passionate about, and you wish that you could integrate the two, you feel like you’re leading a double life, that’s okay. If it’s making you uncomfortable to the point where you’re like, I just wish that they got to know the real me, then let that shine a little bit. It doesn’t have to be, let’s say you were into comedy, or you did comedy on the weekends like you did, doesn’t mean you have to go do stand-up at work. It doesn’t have to be literal.

John: No, not at all.

Shannon: It doesn’t have to be literal. You could literally ask in the cafeteria, hey, have any of you been to a comedy show? What was your favorite one? That is revealing enough. You can insert conversation on a get-to-know-you basis that’s just like, hey, I have a fun question. Or you can even — I wish I had done this more, where I actually could come up with cards or something, conversation starters that would have good prompting questions. Because just the idea to get to know each other, you don’t even have to make it about your other passion. I think it’s just getting to know what everyone else is interested in and acknowledging that.

John: Yeah, because I think some people, oh, were you just telling jokes? No, no, I had a job. I was doing my job. When I left at five or six or whenever, after that, I’m doing that and pursuing that. It was a fun hobby that I did at first, and then I accidentally got good. That’s the other thing too, is it doesn’t have to be a business. I enjoy this. Okay, great. You’re not doing it for anyone’s approval. You’re doing it for yourself. Yeah. That’s so good, so good. Well, this has been so much fun. I feel like it’s only fair that before I let you go that I turn the tables and let you pepper me with questions, since I started out firing away at you. I’m all yours, Shannon. Here we go. I’m also a lot nervous. What’s my favorite cheesecake? No, I’m just kidding. I’m just teasing. I’m teasing.

Shannon: Here’s what’s funny. I do rapid-fire questions on my own podcast as well.

John: Oh, okay. Nice.

Shannon: I’m actually going to start with the ones I ask my guests. I’ll just turn the tables back. They’re all around money and wealth, which is interesting. As an accountant yourself, I think this will be an interesting set of questions. What is one investment you currently can’t live without?

John: One investment. I would say it’s investing in me, if that’ll count. There’s this thought leaders group out of Australia, but they’re worldwide. It’s a lot of people that are on their own, doing their things. It’s been really cool to be a part of that community, very supportive, and also learning from each other. Yeah, that’s definitely one that… It’s super cheesy answer, I feel like. It’s not a financial investment. Bitcoin. No, I don’t know.

Shannon: Yeah. I love it when my guests give a ticker symbol. I’m going, no, no, no, no, no, no, that’s not what I meant.

John: Okay, good. All right, I was along the right path. Okay, I was just making sure.

Shannon: I do enjoy hearing the interpretation of what I’m asking as well, because that tells me a lot about the person.

John: Because it’s like, all right.

Shannon: Yeah, what do you mean by that? What is one thing you learned about money that turned out not to be true?

John: I guess just those self-limiting beliefs kind of thing when you grow up. My dad was career Air Force, and we were the middlest of middle class, kind of. When you start to do well, financially and stuff, that it’s not a bad thing. It’s okay and that you deserve this. You work hard, and you provide a lot of value. I think that that’s probably the deservedness of things, is definitely something that I still deal with. It’s not like I’m Richard Branson. Although I feel like once you cross a certain point, it doesn’t even matter anymore. I’m way before even the hill, but if I told my parents what I made, I think that they would lose their minds, just compared to what they had.

Shannon: Yeah. Yeah. I feel the same way. I felt the exact same way. What makes you feel like a millionaire?

Shannon: Talking to Shannon Weinstein. That’s a good start. Probably that and flying business class, an international with the lay down. It’s like, what are you crazy? I know you’re a huge stand-up fan, but just like Louis CK has a great bit of flying first class, and the Internet goes out. He’s like, you’re in a recliner in the sky. What is wrong with you? I’m laying down, full on laying down, watching TV. This isn’t even real, type of thing. I guess I’m a simple guy.

Shannon: The last one I have, because we talked about the comedy thing, is who your top three all-time comics are, dead or alive.

John: Oh, wow. Okay. I don’t know. I’m a huge Brian Regan fan. I think Bob Newhart is hilarious, also an accountant, so maybe I’m a little bit biased. Man, there’s a buddy of mine, Tommy Johnagin, that is so, so funny.

Shannon: I know Tommy.

John: Yeah, he is so, so funny. Even Ryan Hamilton is hilarious too, another buddy of mine. There are so many, Bill Burr, Chappelle, Gary Gulman, yeah. I prefer, typically, the clean observational kinda, just like you look at the world through a different lens, sort of thing. I never even thought of that, that’s amazing, type of thing. Not the shock as much but just telling it how it is and just that no fear is awesome.

Shannon: Yeah. I look at comics like restaurants where it’s like, what are you craving?

John: Right. Yeah.

Shannon: What are you in the mood for? Because I love my Mitch Hedberg at certain times and then I love my Bill Burr at certain times, and then my Lewis Black.

John: Oh, yeah, Lewis Black too, and also such a nice guy. Holy moly, such a nice guy.

Shannon: Oh, my God, so nice.

John: He’ll drink you into oblivion, but he’s such a nice guy. He’s so awesome and so funny even so angry. You’re right. It’s like a restaurant because everyone thinks that comedy is one thing. It’s like, no, no. You just don’t walk into a movie theater and just sit down. No. You watch the preview. You know what movie you’re going to see. There you go. It’s really hard to pick. This has been so much fun, Shannon. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”?

Shannon: Thank you.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Shannon or connect with her on social media and pick up her podcast, or check out links to her business and definitely her Instagram, go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 443 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

If you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and listening to it and then writing such nice reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Sullivan Finlay. He’s a senior accountant with Salesforce in Indianapolis, Indiana, and now he’s with me here today. Sullivan, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Sullivan: Hey, John. Happy to be here.

John: This is going to be so much fun, so much fun. I have my rapid-fire questions. Get to know Sullivan on a new level here. Here we go. I’ll start you out with probably an easy one. Favorite color.

Sullivan: Blue.

John: Blue. Mine too. All right, we can keep going.

Sullivan: All right.

John: How about a least favorite color?

Sullivan: Chartreuse because I don’t know what it is, and I don’t think anybody who ever says it actually knows what it is either.

John: Right, I don’t even know how to spell it. It’s just one of those words where you’re like purple pink. Never mind. How about more suit and tie or jeans and a T-shirt?

Sullivan: Oh, jeans and T-shirt. I’m jeans and black V-neck kind of guy.

John: Oh, okay. All right. There you go. Oh, this is going to be tricky. Do you have a favorite comedian?

Sullivan: Oh, okay. I have a Mount Rushmore of favorite comedians.

John: Okay, okay.

Sullivan: That entails John Mulaney, Will Ferrell, a double bust for Keegan-Michael Key and Jordan Peele.

John: Yeah, absolutely.

Sullivan: And then Shaq.

John: Shaq is hilarious actually.

Sullivan: Absolutely. Yeah.

John: He’s a giant eight-year-old boy. He’s just a child, and he can be. Those are all good, all good. I love Shaq. It’s good you had it last. You do know comedy. That’s how that works. There you go. How about a favorite day of the week?

Sullivan: Ooh, Friday, looking forward to the weekend. Yeah. Always fun energy, for sure. Plus, Apple TV Plus shows have just started coming out on Fridays, so that’s usually a double win there.

John: It’s a win-win. That’s for sure. How about more chocolate or vanilla?

Sullivan: Chocolate, all the chocolate.

John: All the chocolate, right.

Sullivan: All the chocolate.

John: There you go. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Sullivan: Star Wars. Although I haven’t seen Star Trek, but I do like Star Wars a lot.

John: No, that counts by default, I think.

Sullivan: Oh, yeah.

John: There you go. Your computer, more of a PC or a Mac.

Sullivan: I’m an accountant, so, PC.

John: Right. That was my default.

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: Once in a while, there’s a cool — or one that likes to act like they’re cool anyway.

Sullivan: Right. Yeah.

John: How about a favorite Disney character?

Sullivan: Buzz Lightyear. I actually still have a sign in my room that says, to infinity and beyond, that one of my friends made for me after I graduated high school. It’s sitting right above my bed. Every day when I wake up, roll out, and it’s like, hey, let’s go to infinity and beyond today.

John: I love it, man. That’s actually a great mantra for life. Really. Why not? I love it. More talk or text.

Sullivan: Talk, for sure.

John: Talk.

Sullivan: Yeah. Text, I always send one-word responses to get people to talk.

John: I’m the guy that just straight calls you. This is going to be seven texts. I’m just calling.

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: You bait them into it. I love that.

Sullivan: Right.

John: That’s awesome.

Sullivan: Yeah, totally.

John: That’s great. Since you have the accounting background, balance sheet or income statement.

Sullivan: Balance sheet and specifically, assets. I want us to own this. I’m not paying anyone.

John: There you go. Assets with no liabilities.

Sullivan: Right.

John: It’s just straight cash, and I don’t owe anybody.

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: I love it. How about your first concert?

Sullivan: Oh, really obscure, kind of, Christian contemporary music band, Casting Crowns.

John: Oh, I do know Casting Crowns. I know who you’re talking about.

Sullivan: I was ten years old. We saw them at this random fair in Mount Sterling, Illinois, super small town, probably 1000 people at the concert. They had a drawing for a Casting Crowns jacket and two CDs, autographed CDs. Of the drawing, I won the jacket, and my sister won one of the CDs, over 1000 people that were there.

John: That’s crazy.

Sullivan: It was insane. Yeah.

John: That’s crazy.

Sullivan: Always indebted to Casting Crowns.

John: Right? That’s a collector’s item now. That’s for sure.

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: That’s incredible. Four more. A favorite ice cream flavor. I know you said chocolate, but is there something beyond that?

Sullivan: Just more chocolate.

John: Just chocolate fudge brownie swirl.

Sullivan: Oh, yeah, brownie batter, chocolate extreme, whatever, all that

John: There you go. It is awesome when they put extreme in it. It starts with the X. They just drop the E. They’re like, that’s how extreme this is.

Sullivan: Right. Including, being an accountant, I don’t think anything else I’m doing is overly extreme, so chocolate extreme is the way to go.

John: That’s hilarious. You know how extreme I get? I get extreme with my ice cream. That’s what happens.

Sullivan: Yeah, chocolate extreme.

John: That’s what happens. Right, and you’ve got to lower the voice. I love it. That’s awesome. How about a favorite number?

Sullivan: It’s a four-way tie between 7, 8, 14 and 37, all for different reasons.

John: Yeah. Is there one that’s more of an intriguing reason? 37 seems pretty random.

Sullivan: I grew up on a farm, and we had sheep. I grew up on a farm where we had different sheep. I had one named Buddy because when I was three years old, this thing would follow me all around. Naturally, Buddy had a kid. I named it Buddy, Jr. When you’re four years old, that’s what you name it.

John: Yeah, totally.

Sullivan: I remember that sheep was number 37. I don’t know if that’s where it starts from or not, but that’s just a random connection.

John: No, no, that totally is, totally is. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-book or real book?

Sullivan: Oh, real book. I held out on audio books for a long time and just started getting into it, and I’m hooked. Because I love podcasts and I love reading, and I was like, I’m going to commit way too much time to this. That’s how it’s turned out.

John: There you go. Okay. Okay. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Sullivan: Besides my rugged good — no.

John: Besides your pint of chocolate extreme.

Sullivan: Right. I think a lot of written things. I journal a lot, so, all my journals. I have a Bible from my parents that I have a lot of notes in. All those things that you can’t really replace if things went ablaze, I’d have to say.

John: That’s awesome, man. Very cool. Very cool. I’m sure the journals lead right into your “and” of sketch comedy, improv comedy, comedy in general. How did you get started with that? Is this something that you’ve been doing for a long time, opening for Casting Crowns? Or did you just get into later?

Sullivan: Oh, I wish that was the origin story. I was thinking about this the other day. It might be around that same time. I remember in the second grade, we put on this Thanksgiving play in my class. I remember that in the Thanksgiving play, I think I was like pilgrim number four or something completely unnecessary. I remember wanting to commit so hard to this pilgrim number four and loving it. I was involved in music, growing up. I played trombone and baritone throughout —

John: Nice. A little brass. What’s up, yo?

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: I played trombone too. There you go.

Sullivan: All right. We’re probably the only people who were trombone players, CPAs from Indiana and then did comedy.

John: You had to get into comedy. It was just an event, so tell your parents you had to.

Sullivan: Yeah. Growing up, I always thought I love performing, and I’m ever looking at theater or choir things like that, being, like, man, I think that’s really maybe it. About a year ago, one of my friends and I, we listen to the same like random NFL podcast, and two of the hosts on this podcast were talking about how they’re going to take an improv class together. Last second, one of them bails, one of them takes the class. I told my friends, dude, improv sounds so fun. We’re always joking around together. He’s like, “Yeah. I’m 90% in. Let me just check on some things.” Two days before the class, bails. I am stuck as a Midwestern accountant going to this improv class by myself. I’m like, oh, gosh, all this is made up?

John: Right.

Sullivan: Came out of it totally terrified but had so much fun. I was like, this is the thing.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah. Once you get bit by the bug, it’s fun, and it’s engaging. It just expands your horizon. Especially improv, so many people don’t — stand-up is very rehearsed and written and polished over time, and in sketches like Saturday Night Live, where it’s pre-written. Improv is Whose Line Is It Anyway. Here’s a couple of parameters, work these in, go. It’s like, what? It’s funny though because improv is what we’re doing right now. It’s what we do in life. People always think that it’s so hard and so crazy. I’m like, we’re all improv-ing, really, but it is difficult to do well.

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: That’s for sure.

Sullivan: Sure.

John: How was that first show then? At the end of the workshop, were you able to do one?

Sullivan: First show was scary but so much fun. We were doing online shows for a while. That was kind of weird. You can’t get feedback, besides a bunch of people typing, LOL, a million times on the chat.

John: Right. Which does not fuel your soul.

Sullivan: No. Yeah. When you’re onstage and you tell a joke, you hear the laughter. That’s the greatest feeling in the world. Seeing LOL is a little bit different.

John: That’s not going to do it. That’s just not.

Sullivan: Yeah. The first show in person, I remember after the show, my friends and I were like, that was the greatest rush. It’s so fun.

John: That’s super cool. You’ve gone on since then, and explored it some more. Now what are you working on or have you gone onto?

Sullivan: Yeah, I just started, I got into the conservatory program at Second City up in Chicago.

John: That’s awesome.

Sullivan: Yeah, thanks. Up in Chicago, it was around June that we started. I’m in the second level of that program now. It’s a yearlong program. It’s just been performing improv, perform and write more sketch, which is also a ton of fun. It’s cool because every time I’m in there, I’ve major impostor syndrome because I’m like, these people are hilarious. I think I’m moderately funny, but these people are so good. It’s where a bunch of people from SNL and a bunch of people have come from.

John: Colbert, Colbert was an understudy there.

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: He wasn’t even like the guy. Yeah, there’s so much of that.

Sullivan: Yeah, it’s crazy, but it’s just cool because you’re learning from some of the best and performing with some of the best. Yeah, it’s great.

John: Yeah, and creating. It’s a collaboration of sorts. In stand-up, it’s very much solo. It’s a different game. When you’re collaborating on a sketch, what about this? What about that? Some people are really good at the dialogues. Some people are really good at the scenes. It takes all of you to create this really great sketch.

Sullivan: Totally. Yeah.

John: That’s super cool, man. Have you guys been able to do any shows up there in Chicago?

Sullivan: Yeah, yeah, we’ve done a couple. We just did pretty much an all-sketch show, few weeks ago, and then throw in a little bit improv at the end, to get the people excited.

John: Right. He said my word. Yay!

Sullivan: Yeah. Every other time, it’s pineapple.

John: Oh, Lord.

Sullivan: All right. Yeah, it’s so fun. We’ve gotten to perform on a few different stages there, which is just, again, it’s cool to be like, oh, I’m doing Steve Carell’s part on this stage right now. That’s something I wouldn’t have imagined, a few years ago. Yeah.

John: No, that’s great, man. Kudos. It takes some guts to just throw yourself out there. Also, just keep in mind, it’s something that you enjoy.

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: You’re paying for it. Once they start paying you, that’s when it becomes different.

Sullivan: Right.

John: You enjoy it. Embrace it. I think that’s awesome, man.

Sullivan: Totally, yeah.

John: Do you have a favorite story or something from a show or something that’s come up, where you’re just like, man, that was really cool, or that was really weird, or something?

Sullivan: Yeah. Something really weird, for sure, I can think of this last show. It was the sketch portion of the show. I was in a scene and had to rush offstage. In the next scene, for a reason, I was shirtless. That 30 seconds of just taking your shirt off before you have to sprint onstage. It was like, this is probably the same high that people get, skydiving, which I’m okay with avoiding. The adrenaline rush behind stage, just doing all this stuff, running around, people are going crazy, that was a lot of fun.

John: Yeah. That’s awesome. Because, to make the magic onstage, no one realizes the behind the scenes of what’s going on behind that curtain. That’s part ridiculously hilarious because we’re goofing around. The other part is super serious. I’ve got to get back out there as a totally different character with my shirt off and then this. You’re like, what is going on? Yeah, that is not something that you do every day.

Sullivan: Oh, definitely not.

John: Do you feel at all, there’s a skill set from when you started comedy that translates over to your career?

Sullivan: Yeah, I think so. Especially in improv, there’s the whole concept of, yes and. You are taking whatever somebody is saying and building upon it. For me, being the accountant, perfectionist type, being able to just go onstage or practice with a group of friends and just being able to fail is so cool. Where else can you just do that and be okay? To me, it helped me realize, in my career, the world’s not going to end because I flipped the signs on a journal entry or something.

John: Right?

Sullivan: It’s still going to keep clicking. I think too, feedback, being able to accept that, especially in stand-up. There’s no worse feedback in the moment than just bombing and nobody laughing at all.

John: Oh, no.

Sullivan: The other day, my manager was pinging me. He’s like, yeah, sorry, man, if that’s really harsh feedback or whatever. It’s like, dude, this is nothing. You can say whatever you want.

John: Right? Just as long as you laugh when I say something funny, we’re all good. Other than that, you can say whatever you want about my work.

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: If I crack a joke, you better laugh.

Sullivan: Oh, my gosh, yeah. He messaged back. I think it was just like, boo. I was like, okay.

John: Okay, now it’s over. Now you’re dead to me. That’s such great insight, and it’s cool that you’re able to recognize it in the moment. I mostly didn’t until after the fact. I was like, oh, wow, what do you know? That actually did make me better.

Sullivan: Yeah, definitely.

John: Is this something that you talk about at work or coworkers know about or maybe have a small circle?

Sullivan: Yeah, definitely grew, over time. At first, especially I was in public accounting at the time when I first started, I was like, well, this is the complete opposite thing of what I do professionally.

John: Right, right.

Sullivan: I was like, I don’t know how people are going to respond to this, and was almost embarrassed by it, at first. Then I started talking to people, and they’re like, dude, that’s so cool. Also, this makes sense. It makes sense that you’re the one doing this. I’m like, yeah, I guess I am always just doing bits and messing around in those clients’ conference room.

John: Why not?

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: Right?

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: We have to be there for so long.

Sullivan: Right. Yeah. This audit is pretty serious, so we need to spice it up a little bit.

John: Right. That’s hilarious.

Sullivan: Yeah, so, over time, it just became more and more people that I told. Suddenly, I was like, oh, he’s the guy who’s doing improv or writing or things like that. I’m like, oh, this kind of grew, and people are okay with it and even like it. That’s weird.

John: Yeah.

Sullivan: Yeah, it’s cool.

John: Yeah, and it’s cool to hear that that’s what happened because I feel like so much of that is in our own heads. 99.99% of it isn’t our own heads.

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: You start to share, and then it’s cool, and then it’s a little bit of wild — I don’t even know who you are. How do you know? type of thing.

Sullivan: It’s funny, talking with both groups too, where comedian friends, I’m like, oh, I’m an accountant professionally. They’re like, okay, this guy.

John: Right. They’re going to ask you all the tax questions from February and March.

Sullivan: Literally, one of my friends, early this year, almost committed tax evasion. I was like, why are you talking to me about this?

John: Comedians are like, I got paid in cash. It doesn’t count, right? If you don’t put in your bank account, then maybe.

Sullivan: That’s one side. Then when I tell my accounting coworkers that I do comedy, they’re like, oh, dude, you’re so brave. Thanks, I guess. Yeah, I’ll take it.

John: Actually, yeah, the comedians are probably say the same. They’re like, you’re so brave. You get up at 7am to go to an office and put on an ironed shirt. What is going on?

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: Yeah. That’s cool, though. That’s cool that you shared a little bit, and then the feedback. That’s encouraging for everybody listening really. Also, too that people started to then know you. People maybe didn’t even know who Sullivan was, or they kind of did. Now, it’s going to be like me where, 12 years later, they’re going to be like, aren’t you the guy that did sketch?

Sullivan: Yeah.

John: It’s like, actually, I am. Yeah. I think we all deserve that because you put in way too many hours to be forgotten.

Sullivan: Oh, my gosh, yeah. It’s just such a big part of who I am. This is something I love. I try to encourage friends all the time, be like, yo, chase after this thing and tell people about it because it will encourage other people too.

John: Yeah. No matter what level it gets to, even if it’s just a hobby, and you’re paying to do it, so what? You enjoy it, and that’s awesome. How much do you feel like it’s on the organization to maybe encourage that and foster that? Or how much is it on the individual to maybe just create it in the small circles, like, I guess, how you did?

Sullivan: I think it’s a mix. I’m at Salesforce, and I think they do a really good job of taking this work-life balance and being serious about it. My coworkers and I have different hobbies, and we encourage each other to keep doing it.

John: That’s great.

Sullivan: Which has been awesome, yeah. I think it’s on both the individual and the organization. I think the organization should be like, yes, this is work-life balance, and it’s not just a buzzword. The individual too, like, hey, I’m going to turn off my computer at this time. Especially working remotely, that can be really hard. I’m getting offline. I’m going to go do this thing. I’m not in Excel anymore. I’m just going to go improv or whatever. There’s ownership on both sides, I think, for sure.

John: Yeah. You’ll get the work done. It’s not that. It’s just, I have something else that’s important to me also. That’s cool to hear that they make time for that, and then just how you’re each encouraging each other to live your best life really, which is great because some places, it’s the opposite. It’s, hey, I’m going to go do this; and it’s like, why? You should be, rah-rah. Oh, Lord. It’s encouraging to hear that that’s what you’re experiencing.

Sullivan: Definitely.

John: Which is very cool. Is there anything specific that Salesforce does? Or is it more of just leading by example, from leadership positions?

Sullivan: I think a lot of it is leadership by example, from different leadership positions. I know my manager and my manager’s manager are, like, hey, as long as you get the work done, we don’t really care what you do. It looks at the individual, holistically, being like, you have all these different parts to yourself. Make sure you’re prioritizing each of these because guess what? We’re going to get the best employee at the end of the day because of that.

John: Right.

Sullivan: I think it’s been really, in my team’s at least, my different managers have been really great about leading at that.

John: That’s awesome. Before we do wrap this up, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe their hobby has nothing to do with their career, or in your case, it was almost the opposite, or how you felt?

Sullivan: Yeah. I’d say just, if you have even the slightest itch to do something, just do it. Who knows? It might not even be a passion. I know when I came out of school, at first, I was just working a lot. That’s what I was doing, and I was like, this isn’t sustainable. I started to learn guitar. I started to learn Spanish. Spanish lost out to improv, and it’s been improv ever since. I was like, oh, this is what I’m passionate about. It took a couple of times trying to figure out what do I like, what do I like to learn, and just pursue learning, no matter what. We’re all here to be nerds. Lean into that.

John: No, exactly. Don’t act like you’re not.

Sullivan: Yeah, totally.

John: That’s so great, so great. I love how you said it was guitar, and then it was Spanish, and then it was improv. You don’t have to hang your hat on this forever. It’s just like, that’s what I like doing now. I enjoy this. Then it’s something else. That’s cool.

Sullivan: It’s one of those, for fellow accountants, you can’t just plug it into Excel and figure it out. There’s no VLOOKUP for improv. You just have to go out and do it.

John: Yeah. In all the things, you have to go out and just do it. If you’re in a sketch where you’re singing in Spanish, then you’ve brought it all together, and I will be very impressed. That’s awesome, man. Well, before I do wrap this up, I feel like it’s only fair that I turn the tables and make this the first episode of the Sullivan Finlay podcast. Thanks for having me on. I’m all yours. If you have any questions, fire away.

Sullivan: Absolutely. I’m going to call this What’s Your Yes, And?

John: Oh, I see what you’re doing there with the improv side. Okay.

Sullivan: Absolutely. Okay. This is a question I ask everyone. There’s no wrong answer. What is your favorite color of STOP sign, and why?

John: Oh, my favorite color of STOP sign. I’m just going to go red, yes, and…

Sullivan: There it is.

John: Because that’s the one that most people know. I feel like if we change the color, then idiots will just drive through it.

Sullivan: Good.

John: I wish that it was another color, but I think just out of practicality and how much I’ve been around the general public in my life and having done comedy in front of strangers, let’s just go simple.

Sullivan: I like this, prioritize safety.

John: Well, it’s more of just, I’m going to hit you if you don’t stop because I’m not stopping.

Sullivan: Right, right. Okay, we connected on low brass. What is your favorite trombone slide position?

John: Oh, that’s a good one. Third is good because you can cheat because you can grab the bell.

Sullivan: Yes.

John: It’s third position is probably the cheat one for me.

Sullivan: I was thinking third as well, for the same reason. Or like the ones that have the little F attachment, like the trigger.

John: Oh. Yeah, I never went to that level.

Sullivan: You can play in first, but it’s actually sixth.

John: Right. Yeah, exactly.

Sullivan: However you can cheat, that’s what we’re learning.

John: Pretty much. Pretty much. Yes.

Sullivan: Okay, we’re both accountants or past accountants. What is your favorite tax deduction?

John: Oh, wow. Okay. This podcast does not provide tax advice, but when I was doing comedy, mileage, easily.

Sullivan: Nice.

John: Because I was driving my Honda Civic everywhere.

Sullivan: Totally.

John: 50 cents a mile, I was actually negative for a lot of the gigs that I did, from a tax perspective, because you get 100 bucks and I just drove so many miles. It’s like, well, that actually nets out to pretty much zero for the tax man. Yeah, that one or also Netflix because I’m doing research for the things that I’m writing. That was a good one too, for comedy, as well.

Sullivan: Oh, yeah.

John: Yeah, totally. Those were fun ones and totally legit actually, totally legit.

Sullivan: I would hope so. We’re also not providing a legal tax advice.

John: Right, statute of limitations has passed for me though, I’m pretty sure, on that mileage. It’s all good. That’s awesome, man. Well, thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? and for just being awesome and for shattering that stereotype. It’s been so much fun having you be a part of this.

Sullivan: Absolutely, John. Yeah, pleasure’s all mine. Thank you.

John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Sullivan onstage or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about firm culture, and don’t forget to check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.