writing Tag

Welcome to Episode 555 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work. And in other words, who else are you beyond the job title?

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every weekend. And this week is no different with my guest, Karl Hebenstreit. He’s a principal with Perform & Function in the Bay Area, California. And he’s the author of Nina and the Really, Really Tough Decision and also The How and Why Taking Care of Business with the Enneagram. And now, he’s with me here today. Karl, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on what’s Your “And”?

John: Thank you so much, John. This is really a pleasure.

Karl: Yeah, this is gonna be a blast. Super fun starting out the new year and this is gonna be great. So we have 17 rapid-fire questions though. Get to know Karl out of the gate here. So let’s see how this goes here. I’ll start you with I think an easy one. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Karl: Definitely Star Trek. I love the inclusivity. I love the message. I love the diversity that’s celebrated and the way that all the different “races” are being brought together and explained.

John: Yeah, the world.

Karl: Yes.

John: Yeah.

Karl: Yeah, definitely Star Trek. And it really goes along with one of my favorite actors and Patrick Stewart is just amazing.

John: Okay, there we go. I was gonna ask you do you have a favorite actor or actress. So there we go. Two for one right there on one.

Karl: Yeah. It’s like a Groupon.

John: Yeah. It’s like a Groupon right out of the gate. That’s hilarious. All right. How about your computer, PC or Mac?

Karl: PC.

John: PC. Me too. I’m the same.

Karl: I learned on a Mac in school. I learned on a Mac, but every job that I’ve worked at has been PC since then. You know, the other thing is I’m also an android rather than an iOS, so yeah.

John: No, I’m Android as well. I’m all in on whatever’s not Apple just ’cause I’m not cool enough I think is probably why.

Karl: I’ll join you in that club. Don’t worry.

John: Right, right, right. Would you say you’re more early bird or night owl?

Karl: Early bird.

John: Early bird. Okay.

Karl: I’m disgustingly an early bird. Everyone will tell you that I just jump up and I’m like “Good morning, everyone.”

John: Right. Like go back to sleep and wake us up at a normal time.

Karl: Exactly.

John: I’m a huge ice cream junkie. So ice cream in a cup or in a cone?

Karl: Cone. I wanna be able to eat the packaging. And especially if it’s differently flavored. There’s an amazing gelato place in Palm Springs and they have all these different flavored cones that are just— Like they have chocolate and they have creamsicle-flavored cones. Amazing.

John: Wow!

Karl: Yes.

John: Okay. Totally going to Palm Springs now just for that and then like fly in, fly out. How about do you prefer more hot or cold?

Karl: I run warm, so I prefer cold. Although vacation wise, I prefer hot.

John: Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. How about favorite band or musician?

Karl: Wow. Okay. The first thing that popped into my mind was probably my formative year. So let’s go with Abba.

John: Oh, okay. Yes! There you go. All right. I love it, man.

Karl: Although more recently, I would say more along the— Well, George Michael favorite musician overall, but band— You said band, so I’d have to go with a band.

John: No, that’s fine. That works. No, I’ll take either one. I actually do a music video parody of You Are My Adding Machine from Abba. So it’s a little play on words of see that girl watching me digging my adding machine.

Karl: Dancing Queen. Yes.

John: Yeah. Exactly. So a little bit of nerdiness.

Karl: Yes. The accounting, bringing that in.

John: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Do you have a favorite number?

Karl: 5. My favorite number is 5. My lucky number.

John: Oh, in Episode 555. Look at you, man. This is the universe good coinciding. Yeah. Exactly. Making it happen. How about books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Karl: I want the real thing. I want the actual real book. Yeah. So I can write in it. I can make notes in it. I can fold the pages over like yeah.

John: Okay. I get all up in there.

Karl: Stick it in the bookshelf. Yeah.

John: There you go. How about a favorite Disney character? There’s a million of them, so I’ll take anything animated.

Karl: Wow. Disney character. So Huey, Louie, and Dewey are the nephews of—

John: Oh, yeah!

Karl: Yeah. I love Huey, Louie, and Dewey. Yes. I don’t know why.

John: There you go.

Karl: They have Ducktails and no one probably even knows what that is, but they were so creative and would resolve and solve all the different problems that Scrooge McDuck was getting himself into. Yes.

John: Right. There you go.

Karl: I don’t know if you’ve ever gotten that answer before, but yes.

John: No. No. I forgot all about them. That’s so great. Thank you for the reminder. That’s hilarious. How about puzzles, Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Karl: Out of the three, I’d probably go with crossword just because it’s closest to Wordle, which you know obviously I’ve fallen into that trap.

John: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Karl: But ultimately, Lego, if Lego is considered a puzzle. I love Legos.

John: Oh, yeah. Okay.

Karl: Yes.

John: Okay.

Karl: I love Legos growing up and I still love the adult Legos now too. Yes.

John: Oh, really? Okay. All right. Yeah, I was definitely a huge— I mean, we had two giant tubs of Legos as kids and you just get all the leftovers of whoever and wherever and, yeah, all that. So yeah, Lego is awesome. How about a favorite color?

Karl: Red. I’d go with a red and probably more of like a darker red. When I was younger, it was probably brighter red. And now, it’s probably more like the burgundies or the Malbecs.

John: The red you can drink.

Karl: The red you can drink. Also the red you can drive. How about like a soul red or a candy apple red? I’d go with that one too.

John: Okay. Okay. All right. How about a least favorite color?

Karl: Oh, wow. Puce. How about Puce?

John: Oh, wow.

Karl: I mean, you could ever do anything with that.

John: Oh, it even sounds terrible.

Karl: Yeah. I don’t know if you could do much with that one. That’s in no one’s color wheel. Yeah.

John: Right. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. Would you say you’re more talk or text?

Karl: Talk.

John: Talk. Yeah, I’m same. It just gets to the point faster. We got three more. Toilet paper roll over or under?

Karl: The right way. Over.

John: There we go.

Karl: I actually saw there was like the original when they went to patents.

John: The patents?

Karl: Yes, it is over. So, yeah.

John: Yeah. No, no, it definitely is. It definitely is. Two more. Do you have a favorite animal? Any animal at all.

Karl: Oh, okay. So if it’s just any animal in the world, I’d have to go with monkeys because monkeys are awesome. But if it’s something that I can have, it’s obviously dogs because of our little pack.

John: A monkey riding a dog. No, no, I’m just kidding.

Karl: And I have a lovely little Chihuahua mix who’s a rescue from Mexico. His name is Turbo.

John: Oh!

Karl: Yeah. So he’s a lovely little monkey dog. Absolutely.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah, exactly. That’s perfect. I love it. I love it. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Karl: Wow. I’m gonna go with freedom on that. My freedom is my favorite thing I have or own ’cause that allows me everything else.

John: Yeah. definitely. I love it. That’s awesome. So let’s talk writing Nina and the Really, Really Tough Decision children’s books are just writing in general, like how did you get started with that? Is it something you did a lot as a kid and then just kept going or—

Karl: I think writing came easily for me just in school, reading and writing papers. And I never sought to write a book. The business book came first and the children’s book came second because, again, I like to talk. I’d rather talk than text, so I’d rather talk than write.

John: Yeah. Right. Right.

Karl: I kept giving presentations at different conferences about this wonderful thing called the Enneagram and how to use it in business. And people kept asking me “When is the book coming out?” And I looked at them like “What are you talking about? What book?” So they were hoping that I was gonna integrate all these things into a book, which actually came really, really easily because I had done all these presentations and all these PowerPoint slides. I was using all the content in business.

So it was just very simple to just create a different chapter for each different concept or intervention. And then a friend of mine co-wrote a children’s book with his mother. And I thought, you know, when I work in organizations, it’s so difficult because we really address challenges at the executive or at the higher levels, and we really don’t pay as much attention to the lower levels or the more entry-level employees.

And if we got people acclimated, and trained, and understanding of diversity of perspective early on not just their career, but in their life, it would make their lives overall much easier. So I decided, let me do a children’s book introducing the concept of the Enneagram. And by default, the people, the parents, the teachers, whoever’s reading the books to the children, would also learn about the concept as well. And that will help be a growth opportunity for them.

John: That’s incredible. And for those listening that aren’t aware, like super quick and dirty CliffNotes version of what an Enneagram.

Karl: For anyone that’s never heard of the Enneagram before, think of it as Myers-Briggs on steroids. So Myers-Briggs is a personality typing instrument, but the Enneagram actually helps you understand what the motivation is behind the behaviors, so all the other instruments out there that measure personality behaviors, but they don’t really tell you or give you insight into what’s the motivation behind that behavior. So if you know that and there are nine, there are nine primary motivators that each human will basically affiliate with one of those more than the others, and if we understand where they’re coming from, we don’t think they’re crazy and we don’t think they’re out to get us because we know exactly what their ultimate reason and purpose.

John: There you go. And if one of ’em is ice cream, that’s definitely mine.

Karl: I think that would apply to all the types.

John: Right? There we go.

Karl: Especially chocolate ice cream.

John: Right? There we go.

Yeah. But that’s so great. And to learn it as a kid, that’s so awesome to think of that ’cause when you sit down to write a children’s book, I mean, do you have to get into the child mind? Did you have to like how to get it to their level? Because you haven’t been presenting it preschools like you did for the business book. So how did you go about that?

Karl: You are absolutely right and I don’t have children of my own other than Turbo, and Chase, and Emmett – the dogs. And you know, they were no help, whatsoever. They gave no feedback. So I don’t know what went over their head or what they integrated or whatever. But you know, we were all children once and we all know people who have children. So I tested it out on friends who are parents and have children, and I tried to make it a very complicated topic as simple as possible. So I really adjusted to the standpoint of how do you make a tough decision, right? Everyone has to make a tough decision and understanding that each of the nine different types will look at decision making differently. And if we can incorporate all of those nine perspectives or views, we’re gonna make the right decision all the time and also honor the diversity that each of our friends has in being able to see something from a different point of view.

John: No, love it, man. That’s awesome. That’s really cool. And the writing, is that something that you’ve shared with coworkers in the past? Like I’m sure ’cause you don’t just write a book overnight, you know. And so, is it something that you’ve shared in the past or is it something that you keep on the down low?

Karl: Funny you should say. I did write the book overnight. The children’s book, I did write overnight.

John: Oh, that’s incredible. Holy cow. Okay, good for you, man.

Karl: Because it was an outgrowth really of the business book which had been written 5 years earlier.

John: Oh, okay. Oh, okay.

Karl: So I took one in one part of it, and I said I can really take this concept and bring it to a level that would be a lot simpler and more easily understood by a wider audience. So yeah, the children’s book was literally written overnight. It took 9 weeks from idea to publication. 9 weeks.

John: That’s incredible. Holy cow. That’s unbelievable, man. There might be a children’s What’s Your “And”? book coming out soon. Maybe tomorrow if I can do it overnight.

Karl: Absolutely. No, I think you totally can. You totally can.

John: That’s awesome, man. I love that. I love that. Well, you also just get out of your own way and just write it.

Karl: Exactly.

John: You know? And then just let it rip. And so, is this something that you’ve shared with coworkers in the past or they know that that side of you?

Karl: They totally know it and they knew it from the business side first because the business book when I wrote that, because that I was using those concepts at work. So my coworkers were really thrilled to support me and be able to look at the concepts. And I have colleagues right now that still tell me that they use the book when they do consulting with other clients as well. So it’s great. It’s great to know that. In fact, the business book is gonna end up with an outgrowth into a training certification on how to use the Enneagram system in organizations for all sorts of different organization development interventions.

John: Congrats, man. That’s awesome.

Karl: Be on the lookout for that. Yeah. That’s coming up next year. Yes.

John: That’s very cool. Very cool. And did you ever come across other people that enjoyed writing or I guess you had plenty of people that enjoyed reading ’cause they wanted to cheer you on along the way, but, you know, those people you just have a different relationship with work-wise than you do everyone else that you work with as well or did it matter much?

Karl: So since I wrote the business book and the children’s book, another one of my colleagues wrote a book on innovation as well, Stephen Kowalski. I don’t think I was his inspiration for doing it. I think he had his own inspiration for that, but yeah. So I see people doing that. I see people who have work that they’re doing and then maybe aren’t able to— if they find something, like some sort of light, or interest, or passion in their work that they can’t do 100% of the time, that they’re able to have that outgrowth into a book that is allowing them to get more to that 100% that they can’t get at work. And I really totally recommend that to anyone that if you’re not getting 100% of your fulfillment at work, but maybe there’s something that you can grow from, to do that. Just go into that.

John: No, I love that. That’s such a great concept. Yeah. I mean, if you’re not getting it at work, you can get it outside of work through your “and.” And if it’s writing something and whether it becomes a New York Times bestseller or wins it an award or anything, doesn’t matter. Like you’re doing it ’cause you enjoy it and you’re making a difference in somebody’s life, and especially yours most importantly.

Karl: Absolutely.

John: So, you know, that’s really why you’re doing it. That’s awesome, man. And so, do you feel like the writing side of you plays into work at all? I mean, I’m sure there’s gotta be some sort of writing or communication that happens in your job. So does that impact that?

Karl: You know, currently in my work and my role through my independent consultancy, I do a lot of executive coaching, which doesn’t really require me to do much work if you wanna look at it that way because if you’re doing all the work as an executive coach, you’re doing it wrong. The coaching should be doing all the work, right? So they should be doing all the writing. They should be doing all the accountability stuff and I just hold them accountable.

And then I do presentations and workshops. So there’s a little bit of writing that goes along in that. But again, it goes back to the I’d rather talk than text. So I would rather talk than write. So it really comes down to that. So yes, the writing can synthesize things and I really do like to have things to be short and sweet, and to the point, and not drawn out. And you’ll actually see that in the books that it’s not repeating the same concept over and over and over again. It’s one and done, and maybe bringing it back if it comes up in an overlap with something else.

John: That’s the thing I found when I was writing my book, was how I presented it had to be different than how you write the book ’cause when you’re on stage in front of an audience, you can adjust accordingly if they like it or don’t. You know, you unlock a secret level that now you know, whatever. But in the book, like if you didn’t like that chapter, I’m not sitting there telling you “Hey, you might wanna skip the next two if you didn’t like that one”, you know, type of thing. You know, the approach and the tone of the book, I guess, had to be a little bit different than when it’s coming from me in person.

And that’s something that until you have a team of people that know what they’re doing from the publisher side, then that’s what really helps on that side of things. Yeah, it’s cool to just flush out new ideas and just be like “Oh, wow. Yeah, okay.” They do sort of go hand in hand with each other like that, which is fantastic. That’s really cool. And then before you got into the writing, were there other hobbies that you had that maybe you shared with at work or was writing kind of the thing that cracked it open?

Karl: So one of the things that’s been throughout my entire life— and I think you touched on it at the beginning when we were talking about favorite musician, or band, or artist— singing has been a huge part of my life from my childhood. And Abba was really big. I grew up in Greece. My mom worked with a Swedish embassy, so that’s where Abba was like really infiltrated my life. And I would always be singing Abba stuff. We had songs and albums from, you know, first song, the last song. I was an only child, so I was the entertainment for the adults on many different things. And that’s when it would happen. And then I ended up joining choirs in middle school and Glee clubs in college, Rutgers Glee Club. And then I joined the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus and I sang with them for over 25 years.

John: Nice.

Karl: Yes. And hoping to go back when my schedule allows. So singing and music are a huge part of my life. And I actually do integrate them in my work because (A) I usually have some sort of song at the beginning of a workshop that aligns with the theme or the topic that we’re gonna be discussing to really generate a different way of creatively thinking about the topic because you’re engaging a different part of your mind. And the other thing was really funny. When I joined Genentech, one of the things that we had to do was we had to introduce ourselves. I think we had like 30 seconds to introduce ourselves.

And I introduced myself. Adele was big back then, so I introduced myself. I sang my introduction, which no one had ever done before. So I did the Hello introduction from Adele, and I explained a little bit about I’m an organization development consultant here to help and work with you. Yeah. So it was really, really well received and never done before or after.

John: Yeah, that’s incredible though ’cause why not? You know, like why not? And everyone remembers you. Oh, was that the singing guy? It’s less and less of the organizational development side of you. It’s more of the “and” side of you.

Karl: It’s the “and.”

John: And also too, how much singing, just those stories of it played out from when you were a kid all the way through to today and all the different jobs you had, and school, and all these different things that you did? Music and singing was there all along. That’s really important to remember that your skillsets change, your job changes, your title changes, the logo of the company you’re with changes, but the “and” is always, always, always there.

Karl: Exactly.

John: And that’s so cool to hear, man. That’s great. How much do you feel like it’s on an organization to encourage people to share that side of them or how much is it on the individual to just “Hey, I’m gonna sing my intro, I didn’t even ask for permission, I’m doing it”, you know, type of thing?

Karl: So I think the way that I’m always gonna be correct, just like any consultant will always be correct by saying the answer is it depends. It depends. It really depends on the culture of the organization. Like I probably couldn’t get away with doing it at a very, very buttoned-up, conservative organization. And I cleared it with my boss. I said, “You know, I’m new to this organization. What do you think?” She said, “Go for it.” And she had my back. And I think the other thing is really having a great relationship with your boss who has your back and will be looking out for you to make sure that doors are being open for you, that you’re not doing any missteps. Rachel was awesome with that.

John: And that knows that side of you.

Karl: Exactly.

John: You know, that knows your “and.” Like a boss that knows your “and” really matters.

Karl: And supports it and encourages it. Comes to your concerts. You know, bringing a whole group of people together to your concerts. That’s been amazing seeing colleagues come and support me by coming to the different concerts that we gave with the chorus. So to answer your question, it depends, and it’s really up to the person to initiate it. Don’t expect other people to draw that out of you. Go for it and then ask for forgiveness later or, you know, check for it and make sure that it’s gonna work because people don’t know. I mean, how would people know unless you put it out there first?

John: Amen, man. I agree totally. I mean, because we’re so permission-based for some reason, like we whisper in our ear this evil whatever, like you’re gonna get fired if you sing your intro at the—

No, you’re not.

Karl: Then maybe you’re not at the right place. Go somewhere where they want you to sing your intro or they’re encouraging it, and supporting it, and will give you a standing ovation for it. Yes.

John: Right? Yeah. Well, you know, they didn’t say that we could do that. Yeah. But they also didn’t say we couldn’t.

Karl: Exactly.

John: So you know, like maybe no one’s ever thought of it. No one’s ever done it. Like just do it, you know. And as long as you’re not inhibiting your ability or someone else’s ability to get their work done, then it’s fine, you know. Is it illegal or super taboo? Then maybe not. Don’t do that. But otherwise, let it rip. It’s awesome.

Karl: Yeah. Get that creativity out there. Use the outlet.

John: And it brings some emotion and some color.

Karl: And humanity. You’re made human. You’re not just another cog.

John: Exactly. No, no, I love that so much, man. That’s so good. So good. So do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe they have “and” that they are like “Ah, it has nothing to do with my job, so no one’s gonna care”?

Karl: My words of encouragement are if there’s some passion, if there’s some fire inside of you that’s not finding an outlet, give it the outlet, whether it’s gonna be at work or whether it’s gonna be outside of work. Give it that outlet because that’s what’s gonna inspire you, and drive you, and motivate you, and engage you, and allow you to do some of the stuff that may not be as exciting or stuff that you’re that passionate about. And you can get your passion through your “and” and then hopefully be able to integrate it into the less passionate stuff that you do to make that even more passionate too.

John: That’s exactly it right there, man. That’s exactly it. Because when you talk about singing, it’s always, always awesome. When you talk about work, sometimes it’s awesome, but sometimes it’s not.

Karl: Well, there’s some singing that’s pretty bad too, you gotta admit.

John: Well, I mean, but when you talk about singing, it’s great. I mean, I’m not a good singer for some reason. I can play an instrument. I can hear a pitch. I can hear out of tune. And when it comes out of my mouth, it is not good. So I don’t know why that is, but I can play instruments, I can do all that, I love music, but the singing is just not my thing. So there’s definitely bad singing, and I’m right there at the top of the list of that.

Karl: So this is another thing I say. People take personality inventories and say “Oh, you should be a librarian” or “Oh, you should be a salesperson.” Right? And the answer is “Yeah, right. Are you passionate about that? Do you aspire to that or are you gonna put the work in for it?” So someone who may have the “DNA” or personality to be the ideal whatever may not be passionate about it and somebody else that’s really passionate about it will do a far better job at it because they’re in it than the other person that’s naturally inclined to do it. So, go for it. Sing in the shower, sing in the car, sing karaoke.

John: Right? There you go. Yeah. And that’s what I tell people too. What I found from doing so many of these interviews is people wanna give themselves a label or they’re hesitant to rather because they’re like “Well, I don’t get paid to sing or I’m not a whatever.” And it’s like “Yeah, but I enjoy singing.” Well, that takes all the pressure off of being good ’cause it doesn’t even matter if you’re good. You’re doing it for yourself. So that’s awesome, man. Well, this has been so fun, Karl, but I feel like since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning of the show that we can turn the tables here, make this The Karl Hebenstreit Podcast. Thanks for having me on as a guest. I guess I booked myself, so never mind.

Karl: That’s awesome.

John: So what have you got for me?

Karl: All right, John. I know that you have a very strong affinity for dogs. I know you love dogs. They’re a passion of yours. I wanna find out what your favorite dog breed is and why.

John: Oh, wow. Okay. So my current dog is like a terrier mix. I did the DNA test and it came back as Chihuahua, Rottweiler, and then like 80% we have no clue. And I was like I want my money back ’cause this is clearly a terrier mix, but that’s always fun. You know, he’s like 32 pounds, 35 pounds. So he’s a dog, but he’s not like you’re gonna get your shoulder ripped out if he goes running, you know, type of thing. A Springer Spaniel, we had one as a kid as well, and he was super awesome. So I guess if I had to pick a specific breed, probably that, but the terrier mix has grown on me. They’re super fun dogs. They’re quick. They’re smart. They’re fun dogs.

Karl: All dogs are amazing. Absolutely.

John: No, for sure. Unconditional love all the time from dogs. If humans could have 1% of that, it would be an amazing place to be.

Karl: That would be a huge difference from what we have. Absolutely.

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Karl: All right. I’m also interested to find out, you’ve been doing 555 podcast episodes, what “and” have you been inspired to add to your repertoire based on a podcast that you did?

John: Oh, based on a podcast. Okay. Well, my ultimate dream is to have a show kind of like Mike Rowe’s Dirty Jobs where he goes around and does it. So I would fly to the Bay Area, and we would sing and do a children’s book and then do this interview. But also, I would do your “and” with you. And I think that would be a super cool show, just figuring out how to get that out there.

Karl: And paid for.

John: Yeah. And paid for. That would be the biggest part of it.

But you know, just to show the human side to all of us. But you know, I guess yoga might be one that I’ve gotten more into or mindfulness in general from speaking to a couple of people that have been on the podcast. So that might be an example. You know, I’ve picked up a couple of other “ands” just periodically, but not specifically from the podcast. But yeah, probably yoga, or mindfulness, or things along those lines that I wasn’t as open to before or hadn’t really learned much about before. So just being like “Oh, wow, okay, that seems interesting. Let’s learn more about this.” So I would say those.

John: I have one last question if you’re up to it.

Karl: Last one. It’s your show, man. I’m at your mercy.

John: All right, here it goes. What comedian inspired you growing up?

Karl: Ah, wow. So, I mean, as a kid, I grew up in the heyday of Saturday Night Live, so it was Dana Carvey, and Mike Myers, and all those. And then it transitioned into the David Spade, and Chris Farley, and Adam Sandler group. And then Jim Carrey came out within Living Color and all those, and the weigh-ins, and all that. And so, I grew up with watching that and reading Mad Magazine, and Cracked Magazine, and all that. But that’s improv or sketch. That’s different than standup. My first standup that I ever saw, it was a sixth grade slumber party and my older brother had Eddie Murphy Raw, the VHS cassette of Eddie Murphy Raw, which no kid should ever see.

And so, that was the first standup I ever saw, was us sneaking like a group of us at a slumber party watching Eddie Murphy Raw. But then, you know, as I got older, I mean, I’m sure like Seinfeld or Ray Romano and a lot of that was because they had the sitcom, so then you learn about them, and then you find out that they did standup, and then you learn about their standup as well. So, you know, probably early on, it was kind of that clean observational kind of humor and then got into Bob Newhart Hilarious, like some of the older genre, you know, super funny.

Karl: So really all across, all the different genres.

John: Yeah. I mean, you know, like Steve Martin, amazing. No one specific person. I guess just kind of like observational humor, I guess. Like nothing with an agenda. Like it was never anyone that has an agenda of I’m trying to get you to believe what I run. No, no. It’s more of like isn’t life funny and look at that or look at this and be like “Ah, I never thought about it that way” or whatever, you know, type of thing. So, those sort of things.

Karl: And we definitely need more of that. We need tons more of that to help us really understand, and appreciate life, and just get all the differences that are out there.

John: It’s a philosophy I feel like. They’re philosophers. As a comedian, you look at the world through a different lens, and you bring other people into your picture, and then you start to now see the picture that’s in my mind.

Karl: So you just described the Enneagram by the way. So you look at the world through a different lens, and you’re trying to bring them into yours as well as you understanding what their lenses are too.

John: Yeah, because I have to also meet you where you’re at.

Karl: Exactly.

John: Wow. Awesome. Okay, very cool. I’ll still start with the children’s book because that’s probably best for me.

Karl: I totally agree with that. And I think the other key thing that I would impart on people is the Platinum Rule versus the Golden Rule. So treat others the way that they want to be treated. So I think that’s one of the biggest learnings that people need to really tap into because there’s been so much emphasis on the Golden Rule, which is very me focused as opposed to other focused. And everyone doesn’t see the world the way that you do. And everyone doesn’t like ice cream or the same flavor of ice cream.

John: And those people are terrorists. Those are terrorists. No. No. I’m kidding.

Karl: On the no-fly list. Yes.

John: Exactly. That’s awesome. Well, no. Well, thank you so much, Karl, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This was really, really fun.

Karl: Oh, I had a blast. Thank you so much for having me, John.

John: Absolutely. And everyone listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Karl in action or maybe be sure to check out his books or connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click the big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. Thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 553 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work. It’s the answer to the question of who else are you besides the job.

And if you like what the show’s about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And’? on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Melissa Romo. She’s the VP of Global Marketing at Sage and the author of the upcoming book, Your Resource is Human: How Empathetic Leadership Can Help Remote Teams Rise Above. It’s available for pre-order right now on Amazon. And now, she’s with me here today. Melissa, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Melissa: I’m so glad to be here, John. Thanks for inviting me.

John: Oh, this is gonna be a blast. I’m so excited. We met several years ago when I was keynoting a lot of the Sage user conferences. I knew you were writing the fiction books, but now to have the business leadership book as well is pretty awesome. So I’m excited.

Melissa: Yeah, I’m excited. It’s a completely different animal, a business book versus a novel. One thing I learned is business books require citations. And I have a 10-paged bibliography with 150 citations because you can’t make stuff up when you write a nonfiction book.

John: That’s true.

Melissa: You have to actually be factually correct. It really made me miss novel writing because, novel writing, you can just make it up.

John: You just make it up. Just make it up. And speaking of making it up, I got 17 rapid-fire questions for you, so you could just make ’em up. I’m ready. Here we go. Just make up the answers. All right. First one, favorite color?

Melissa: Blue.

John: Blue. Solid. Mine too. All right, we can keep going. No, I’m just kidding. Least favorite color.

Melissa: Least favorite color? Yellow.

John: Yellow. Okay. Yeah. Fair. And ooh, this a trick one. As a remote working advocate, talk or text?

Melissa: Oh, text.

John: Okay. All right.

Melissa: You know why? Because emojis are an amazing tool to build connection with people and to express yourself. There’s actually science behind emojis, and I’m a big emoji user. And my team, we’re really addicted to gifts in my team. So we’re on Microsoft Teams. You know, if someone new starts in the team, we say, “Welcome, Bob.” And then like there will be this outpouring of gifts.

John: Everybody waving and all that. Yeah.

Melissa: Everyone’s waving. There’s this like hugs coming, and hearts, flying and all this stuff. And you have to do stuff like that when you’re remote. Well, I know we’ll talk more about that later. But yes, so text, absolutely, because you can express yourself in kind of new and exciting ways.

John: All right. No, I love it. That’s awesome. How about a favorite Disney character?

Melissa: I like the little lobster, Sebastian, in little Mermaid. Is that what he’s in?

John: Yeah.

Melissa: Yeah. His musical number is one of my favorite musical numbers.

John: Excellent choice. I love it. That’s awesome. How about when it comes to puzzles, Sudoku, crossword, or a jigsaw puzzle?

Melissa: Well, so I’m pretty addicted to Wordle. And if I’ve already done the Wordle, I will shift to Sudoku, but I do it on my phone. And you know, it kind of auto fills it in for you. So I try to do the Wordle. I will brag. If I get Wordle in the second guess. It goes on Facebook.

John: There you go. All right. Well, yeah, that seems like a bragging moment. How about a favorite actor or actress?

Melissa: Ryan Reynolds. Ryan, if you’re listening to this, I want you to endorse my book. A video is on the way to your marketing company and to your partners at Deloitte because I think you need me to make The Creative Ladder a success. More to come, everybody.

John: That’s amazing. You never know. You never know.

Melissa: You just never know. You have to put it out there.

John: Yeah, no, you really do. Toilet paper roll over or under?

Melissa: Oh, definitely over. I don’t understand anybody who puts it under. It’s so confusing to me.

John: Right? I think Ryan Reynolds puts it under. Just saying.

Melissa: I would let him do that.

John: All right, fair enough. Fair enough. All right. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Melissa: Oh, Star Wars definitely. I don’t think I’ve ever seen one minute of Star Trek. I don’t even know who the characters are.

John: Wow. Yeah, right. Okay. That works. That works. Your computer, more PC or Mac?

Melissa: Well, Mac. But whenever I know anybody who starts in a corporate job and they throw a temper tantrum because they need a MacBook from the company, the first thing I tell them is that all the corporate software really doesn’t play nice with Mac, and it’s just not worth a headache. So in my job, I love my PC, which is a Dell. And at home, I have a MacBook.

John: All right. How about ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Melissa: Cup definitely. Cones are really messy.

John: Yeah, yeah. No, totally. Do you prefer more hot or cold?

Melissa: I’m a sun seeker and I love the heat, so it’s definitely hot.

John: There you go. How about a favorite band or musician?

Melissa: I’ve been listening to a lot of Lauren Hill lately. Just getting back into the R&B, like the sort of 1990s R&B. I’m kind of into that. So Lauren Hill lately is favorite. And I love Ed Sheeran. Anything by Ed Sheeran, I’ll just listen to over and over again.

John: Yeah, he’s good too. And Ed, if you’re listening, collaborate with Lauren Hill and then Melissa will buy all of the albums.

Melissa: Boy, that’d be a bomb. Yeah.

John: That would be pretty bomb actually. How about a favorite number?

Melissa: Oh, well, I’ll say 11 because that’s the day I was born. I mean, can’t not like the day you were born, right?

John: Yeah. And it’s better than one. It’s two 1s.

Melissa: It’s two 1s. Right. Yeah.

John: That’s a great number. All right. How about when it comes to books for reading or listening, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Melissa: So I really prefer a real book. We even defected angrily from Audible, and I feel like I’m like the only person in the universe who is doing that because I just read an article last week that audiobooks are about to become a bigger revenue generator than all of Hollywood put together. So people are really listening to lots of audiobooks. For me, reading is a very visual activity. I like to look at how the words look on the page. I like to look at how the page look. I like the way books smell.

John: Yeah. The way it’s laid out. Absolutely. It’s an art.

Melissa: Exactly. It’s a very tactile design-centered experience for me. So audio books just don’t tick the box. And when I’m traveling, I will put things on my Kindle. And I have been known to buy a Kindle book that I already own in paper, which drives my husband up a wall, but I just can’t carry around books when I’m traveling. I’m stuck with my Kindle.

John: Gary Goldman has a great joke about how he bought Shawshank Redemption on streaming even though he owned the DVD because he didn’t want to get out bed to put the DVD in the thing. And his brother’s like “Yeah, but it adds up. Like you’re gonna lose all your—” And he goes “It only adds up if you add it up. Like if you don’t add it up, it’s not wasted money. Like just it’s another book.” Like whatever.

Melissa: Yup. I can relate to that. I was laying by the pool in a beautiful poolside Mallorca compound laying by the pool. And I had a book back in my room, which was like maybe like a 5-minute walk. And I just could not leave the poolside because it was an absolute exquisite afternoon. And so, I picked up my phone and I bought the book that was in my hotel room.

John: Love it. Love it. That’s so good.

Melissa: If my husband’s listening, I’m really sorry. I’ll do the dishes.

John: He didn’t know. He didn’t even know. That’s hilarious. Ryan Reynolds said it’s okay, so it’s all good. All right. We got two more. Two more. Favorite toppings on a pizza.

Melissa: So I love pineapple and ham. I love Hawaiian pizza.

John: Oh, okay. Yeah, I do too.

Melissa: I know it’s almost like Marmite. Either love it or hate it, but I think it’s amazing.

John: Yeah, no, I think it’s great. It’s not my go-to, but I’ll take it. Yeah, absolutely. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Melissa: I had an illness a couple years ago, which fortunately I’m past it. I’m healthy and everything’s fine, but I had a little bit of a serious illness going on. And a friend knitted me a scarf out of this fabric that looks like kind of a Tiffany lamp, like all these multicolors and it’s super soft. And I had that on night and day for the entire winter that I was being treated. And it’s still like the thing I pick up. As soon as the weather turns, I pick it up. I have it around my neck all the time. It’s beautiful.

And the most important thing about it is that my friend made it for me at a moment when I really needed her hug. Right? And that was kind of a great hug without being able to be with her. I love it. I love it. And then I would say a close second is this vase that I purchased in Lisbon while I was on a layover on the way to Paris.

John: Oh, okay.

Melissa: So it wasn’t even in the airport shop. I went into town into Lisbon to like a junk shop. And I just thought it was so beautiful with the rooster and these— it has these blue— it’s like hand painted porcelain little things. And so, I just was at a junk shop like waiting for my next flight and I thought “You know what? I’m putting that in my backpack.”

John: And I was gonna say to fly with that is even more impressive. And it wasn’t like you were on the way home. You were still going to somewhere else.

Melissa: No. No. I was in Paris, and we were in an Airbnb for 10 days. And the first thing I did when we unpacked is I went downstairs to the street in Paris and I bought myself a bouquet of ranunculus, which is my favorite flower. And I came back upstairs to the Airbnb, and I popped it into my vase. And my husband’s like “Well, you’re just moving it, aren’t you?” “Like you know I am.” So I’m all about quality of life.

John: That’s true.

Melissa: I need my vase, I need my flowers, I need my book.

John: Yeah. No. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, both of those are cool items that come with really powerful memories, so that’s awesome. So good. So good. So let’s talk writing and all of that. And I’m gonna probably have some PTSD from this, but it’s all good from my experience. But no, I’m kidding. It’s a journey. That’s for sure. And I guess you’ve written both fiction and non-fiction now. So I guess what’s the biggest difference there, I guess, besides the citations?

Melissa: The biggest difference is the novel, the story has to be completely invented. And so, what’s hard about a novel is you have to give yourself permission to lie, right? Because you’re making it up, right? Like none of these things actually happen. You are completely inventing the world. You’re making up their characters. You’re making up their dialog. And when you first start writing a novel, you really feel like you have to stick to like truth and facts. And I was writing a novel, a historical novel based on real history. And so, at the start of the process, I found myself trying to like write characters that I was finding in the history books.

And you know, I would find a character, like a person who was in some of the documentation about the subject I was writing about. And I was like “Oh, I’m gonna use this person and this is gonna be my character. And I’m gonna write exactly what this person said and what I’ve found in the history books.” And so, the release comes when you realize you don’t have to do that, right? And in fact, it’s better if you make it up. And so, what I think is really amazing about novel writing is I personally feel that novels are the most sophisticated, exciting art form that exists because you take just paper and words. So it’s very low tech, right?

You take paper and words. And if you are good enough as a writer, you can really transport your reader to another place, to another time. You can make them feel things. I mean, they do these brain studies when people are reading. And if somebody reads a very sad passage in a book, you can see the brain activity, right, reacting to that. So you are really making people feel things and experiencing things that it’s like virtual reality. It really is. I love orchestras, I love music. But you know, that’s oral. It’s something that comes into our ears and obviously makes us feel things, but it isn’t an out. It doesn’t quite bring us to this point of storytelling, right?

John: Yeah. I mean, they’re so simple, like you said. I mean, it’s paper and ink, and someone’s creativity, and then it moves you. And you know, a symphony is music on that way. But then you need 40 people playing the music and expensive instruments and all of this. You know, the book, it’s you reading it. And each person has their own experience. That was hard for me even with a business book, is I’m not sitting next to you. So it’s like “Hey, if you didn’t like that chapter, you might wanna skip the next one.” You know? I’m not there with you to—

Melissa: Well, you’re not there with them. This is the other thing that I find so exciting about books, is if I had one wish, you know, you always get this question in a trivia game or whatever— If you had one wish, what would it be? My wish would be time travel. Like I want to go back in time. I wanna know what it was like in the 1800s or whatever. On my shelf back here, I have Bram Stoker’s Dracula, right? Now, he wrote Dracula in— I think it was the 1870s. He wrote Dracula.

So you can read Dracula. And you know, he’s in the room with you, right? You’re reading his words. You’re reading his story. And you know, you’re back in the 1870s where he’s telling you the story about this vampire bat in Transylvania. And he’s an Irish writer, so he was writing it in Ireland, right? Telling you a story about Transylvania. And so, you know, for me, historical books are the nearest that I’m ever going to get to time travel. And that’s what’s so exciting for me about writing them and reading them.

John: That’s awesome. And so, have you always been a writer like when you were young and carried it forward or did it come back?

Melissa: No. I always, always, always. I mean, since I was 9 years old, I kept diaries. I wrote really insipid poetry when I was a student.

You know, I have all these like love poems and things like that hopefully no one ever finds them.

John: Ryan Reynolds, if you’re listening, they’re on their way.

Melissa: I love great poetry. I’ve just kept journals forever. And you know, the What’s Your “And”? question I think is really a powerful one for me because when I was 30, I think I was 36 and I was a new mom, I had two little babies— And I’ve been keeping journals now since I was 9 years old, so quarter century of keeping journals. And I had even been drafting a novel for 10 years that I knew I wanted to write. It was about Poland, about the time I lived in Warsaw, Poland when I was working over there. And I’ve been working on it.

But you know, I was in a big job. I was in American Express. I was a marketing director. I had two little babies at home. And there was no light at the end of the tunnel I had too many things— amazing, wonderful things in my life. I had a wonderful husband, wonderful children, wonderful job, no time to write. And I got in a taxi on July 14th, 2009. I will never forget. It was Bastille Day. And I had a beautiful breakfast with my friend who made me the scarf. And we talked about our dreams in life. And I said, “You know, one day, I wanna write a novel.” And then, you know, she’s like “That’s great. I hope you do.”

And then I got in a taxi. And on the way down to American Express’s headquarters in lower Manhattan, the taxi driver wanted to read my palm. And I’m not into all the Voodoo and everything. Like I don’t believe all that stuff. And I was like “All right, whatever.” You know, it’s a nice morning, I’ll go with it. Right? So I stuck my hand through the plexiglass. And then at every stoplight, you know, we stopped at Halston. We stopped at Canal Street. You know, down in Tribeca. Every stoplight, he was reading my palm. He was saying something else about me.

And he said a couple things that, you know, were kind of generic and he could have come up with them not knowing me. And then when we got close to the office, he said, “Oh, this line down at the bottom of your hand leading to your wrist, that says you’re a writer.” And when he said this to me, I thought he’s not saying I’m an artist, he’s not saying I’m creative, he’s saying I am a writer. And it was like this hand of God reached down into that taxi and hit me on the head and said, “What are you doing? Like you need to be writing. Like, you know, it’s all great your PowerPoints and you’re marketing everything, but you need to be writing.” Right?

And I got out of the taxi just stunned that he said that to me, right? And my heart was racing. You feel this moment when everything collides and you feel like you have to make a really important decision. And I ran up to a conference room and I called my husband. And it was, you know, 8:30 in the morning. And I called him at his office. And I was already very emotional. And I said, “I was in this taxi. And he read my palm. And he said I’m a writer. And I have to quit my job.” Right? It all just came flying out of me.

And I knew I would not write if I didn’t step back from my job. I needed something to go away. And it was 2009. So you know, Lehman Brothers had gone out of business. Everyone in the financial markets were being laid off. And it was really risky for both of us. Both of our jobs could have been on the line. And here I am calling him hysterical and saying I need to quit my job to write a novel. And you know, he would’ve been completely within his rights to say “Look, like pull yourself together. Go have a coffee. We’ll find a way for you to write novel.” But he said all— All he said— 3 words— “Go for it.”

John: Nice. Yes.

Melissa: I couldn’t believe I was hearing him. And I was like “Are you sure? Like you really are okay with that? Like this is a big risk for us.” He’s like “Just go do it. It’s clearly really important to you.” So I did. I quit. And this is the thing I want people to know who are listening and thinking about their “and.” When I resigned and I told people I was resigning to write a novel, nobody believed me. Right? Nobody believed me. And the email that said Melissa’s leaving the company to blah, blah blah said she’s gonna spend more time with her family, which is also true, right?

Like of course, I was gonna see a little bit more of my kids and everything, but that was not why I was leaving a very good job at a blue chip company, right? That was not why. But nobody really took me seriously. And that definitely hurt. I was a nobody. But for the most part, I wasn’t taken seriously. And then a weird thing started to happen the last couple of days I was at work before I finally left. People would pull me into their offices and say “You know, I love to dance. I’ve always wanted to dance on stage.”

And then someone else would say “You know, in my spare time, I paint. And I really wish one day I would have a gallery show.” And John, I think probably 10, 12, 15 people told me these stories secretly in hushed tones in their offices behind closed doors. So what that told me was, wow, we are all sitting on something really important to us that we are having a hard time finding ways to devote time to.

And the thing I would tell everyone listening is don’t leave it. Right? That’s why you’re alive. That’s what makes you feel alive. And cut any corners you have to in your life to give a little bit of time to that thing that makes you feel alive. Don’t put it off. I was very lucky that I was able to take a couple of years. And I did write the novel. And the novel did get published. And it is out there. So I kind of proved to everybody that I was gonna do it. The funny thing was I thought once I wrote it, it would be out of my system and I’d sort of go back to a job and be done. Then I drafted four more novels.

John: That’s incredible.

Melissa: I drafted four more novels and now the business book. Yeah. So I’m clearly a writer.

John: Yeah. ‘Cause right now people are like “When’s the next book?” And I’m like “Umm, it’s really hard. It’s really hard.” So, kudos to you. But I love that story so much for so many reasons. One is just the universe telling you— God telling you whatever you wanna say is—And he called you. I am a writer. You’re like I am a writer. Like I’m not a marketer. I’m not, you know, all these other things. I’m a writer. So maybe marketing’s your “and.”

Melissa: Yeah. Exactly.

John: That’s how I look at everyone that I have on the show. Who you really are is the hobby because that’s the thing that’s always with you. When you get promoted at your job, when you go to a different job, you’re still that thing. But then, you know, in the job title changes, the technical skills that you’re using changes, the technology that you use at your job changes. Like all that stuff is always changing, but your “and” or the container of “and”, if you will, is always there. And that’s the eye of the hurricane. That’s your source of identity and confidence and who you are.

So I am a writer and like I love that so much, and then the fact that like people were pulling you aside just quietly and closing the door to their office to tell you what really lights them up. That’s why I created this show because I’m like you shouldn’t have to close the door and say I like to dance. You should tell it. Like everyone should know I love dancing. Like I don’t have to be good at it. I don’t have to make money at it. I don’t have to like be on a show. Like I just like to dance. Like what’s up? And that’s so important to just feeling alive.

Melissa: It is. It is completely important. Yeah. And I hope everyone listening to this takes that to heart and don’t leave it. It is the eye of your hurricane. It is where your soul is. So spend time there. That’s where the richest life is gonna be.

John: It’s so important. And you know, not everyone can obviously quit their job and make it a revenue producing thing, but you can do it on the side. And it doesn’t have to be good. It doesn’t have to be amazing. It’s just I enjoy writing. I don’t need your permission or your judgment. I don’t even care actually because I’m doing it for me, you know.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And you know, the postscript to that decision was ’cause I was very lucky that we could do without my salary for the short term, but I did find out that I can’t only write because I’m somebody who’s very extroverted and I like to be with people, and writing is a very solitary activity, and it just wasn’t enough for me. So a beautiful thing happened in marketing, however, when I was out writing my novel. Content became very important, right?

Like the internet really matured, broadband matured, social media became a big thing. And suddenly, you had companies deciding that they need content operations and they need, guess what? Writers. And so, I went back into marketing as a content strategist for SAP Concur in the UK when I was living there. And it was kind of like, you know, close a door, open a window kind of thing. It’s like here I was back in marketing, but actually writing and doing the thing I loved to do.

And then I got an amazing opportunity at Sage because they called me and said, “Look, we wanna hire somebody to start a global content team. We don’t have a global content team, and we know we need one. You know, we’re a huge Footsie 100 software company, and we need someone to come and coordinate all this content.” And I was really nervous about taking the job ’cause I’d never done a job that big, but it was writing and creating content. And I thought “Wow, this is the jackpot. This is what I love to do. This is my “and” and it’s my job.”

John: Yeah. You’ve been exercising this muscle since you were 9. It’s like I was born for this. Like I’m ready for this.

Melissa: Yeah. So it was a great turn of event. So sometimes your “and” can become part of your daytime career. I mean not always, but sometimes it can. And I was looking for it. I was always looking for a way that writing could be a way I could make a living. I was always looking for it. And my hat is off to anyone who’s a freelance writer who manages to make a living with it because I did try that while I was writing my novel. I mean, I sold maybe two or three stories. I was being paid $40 a story. I mean, nothing, right? And I thought how do people live as writers, you know?

So when content was becoming more important for corporations, I thought “Oh, okay. Well, at least there’s gonna be a paycheck here.” And the first thing I did, John, when I came in and I started a team is I hired three ex-journalists who had lost their jobs because their media companies were going out of business. And I hired them into Sage to write for Sage, and a couple of them are still there.

John: That’s so great. It’s true though. I mean, these outside of work hobbies that you have give us a skillset whether it’s direct like in your case or maybe it’s indirect. The way you think, the way you see things, the way you look at the world, or at the very minimum it humanizes you. You know, I guarantee that people at Amex—Remember the lady that left to write a book? There’s so many other people that have left that company that they do not remember, but you are the lady that left to write a book.

I had a guy remember me 12 years after I left PWC as that’s the guy who did standup at night. And it was like he didn’t remember me for anything else, and my resume was pretty solid. All the hard work I was doing, he didn’t remember ’cause I never actually met him. He was in a different department, on a different floor. Yeah. Just that human side of all of us is so crucial. It’s so crucial in which leads into your book, you know, Your Resource is Human. And I guess how do you bring the human to the remote world?

Melissa: Emojis.

John: Emojis. That’s it. Emojis and gifts. I don’t even know how to say it right.

Melissa: I’m not kidding. I mean, it sounds sort of funny. But you know, it’s what they call the liminal moments in the workday is when you really build relationships. And those can be either in an office when you’re passing each other to water cooler or they can be on Microsoft Teams when you’re chatting back and forth. So, you know, the liminal moments can exist in either place. So you don’t have to be in an office to have them. The only thing you have to have in your mind when you’re working remotely is you have to just be a little bit more intentional, right?

Because in an office, you can sort of accidentally cross paths with someone and just chitchat and whatever. But when you’re at home, you have to sort of get up in the morning and say “You know, I haven’t been in touch with this person in a long time. I haven’t been in touch with that person, or I really wanna have more of a relationship with Jim, or I’m really wondering how Susie’s doing because I know last week was really hard for her.” Right?

So you need to just spend a minute or two in your morning thinking about the people around you in sort of the ecosystem you work in in your company and kind of make yourself a list on a little Post-it note. Like I’m just gonna reach out. I’m just gonna ping this person and just kind of see what’s going on. And you create your liminal moments right there, you know. You create your liminal moments.

John: I love that. Yeah. And it’s not necessarily talking about work. It’s just talking about them and pulling down the veil of who you really are. Yeah, I love that with the gifts and the emojis. It shows your personality. And it shows who you are and that’s awesome. You know, I love that. You know, that’s the human side of all of us, which is great.

Melissa: Most of the time, I’m remote. I mean, it’s been remote for 6 years. Before that, I was running freelance teams who were helping me with my novel and the design of my novel. So for better part of a decade, I’ve been running remote activity and working remotely with people. And so, the book came about because I had tea in Dublin with my good friend Frederique Murphy who’s an incredible author. She’s got a TED Talk. You know, she’s got a podcast. She’s got all these things. Frederique Murphy. Look her up.

She said to me at tea— She said, “Melissa, you have an important voice about leadership and people need to hear it. People need to know how you lead because the way you lead is different. Especially with remote work, there are things you do that support your team that are unusual and are actually making your team a really strong team.” So she kind of nudged me to write this book. And I wrote a book proposal for the idea of the book. And I thought to myself. There was a publisher I was pitching it to.

I’m like there’s no way this publisher is gonna buy this book because there were a bajillion books about remote work coming out. Like every 5 minutes, there was a new book about remote work. And I thought the last thing the world needs is another book about remote work. But to my surprise, the publisher did buy it. And it was the first time I was actually working with a publisher because the novel was self-published.

After blood, sweat, and tears of trying to sell it to a publisher, I published it myself. And the business book is being published by Practical Inspiration Publishing in the UK. And I was completely shocked that they bought it, but they did buy it. And the novel took me 15 years to write beginning to end, and the business book took me 5 months.

John: Wow. Yeah.

Melissa: That’s what happens. And there were 35 interviews, 25 endorsements, 150 citations, 60,000 words to get done in 5 months. And someone at work asked me how did you pull this off while you were still holding down a job, and I sort of joked and I said, “Well, my kids are totally unsupervised to start with. I haven’t seen my husband in like weeks.”

John: One of them has a tattoo on their face now.

The other one is like has a mohawk. It’s like whatever. Like it’s fine. But kudos to you. Like that’s awesome. And everybody listening, you could pre-order the book. Your Resource is Human by Melissa Romo. You could check it out on Amazon right now. And if you’re listening after April, then you can just straight up get it, and you don’t even have to wait.

Melissa: Yeah. April 3rd. It will be out in Kindle and paperback. And I will be recording an audio version. So sometime in December, there will be an audio version out as well because audiobooks we know are about to overtake Hollywood.

John: Right. Exactly. Exactly. No. Well, this has been so much fun, Melissa. I’m so excited to have you be a part of this and kudos to you on all your success, but I feel like I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning of this show. So it’s only fair that I turn the tables and make this The Melissa Romo, Your Resources Human Podcast. And thanks for having me on your first episode. I appreciate it.

Melissa: Of course, John. We really wanna get to know the human side of John Garrett.

John: Oh, boy. Oh, no.

Melissa: Given that we’re recording this 5 days before Christmas, I’m going to ask you a couple of holiday-related questions. So, real tree or fake tree?

John: Yeah, real tree all day. It’s the smell and the quirkiness of it. Like fake trees are too perfect. And I know there’s the nature side of it and you’re not supposed to cut down. I don’t know. If all things equal, a real tree I guess.

Melissa: I’m with you. I’m with you. Sweet potatoes or Brussels sprouts?

John: Oh, sweet potatoes. Anything but Brussels sprouts like pretty much. So like if you would have said Brussel sprouts or, I would have said whatever’s next. Punched in the face, yes, that. And sweet potatoes are also great, so yes that.

Melissa: Yes. Yes. They are great. So, skiing or snowboarding?

John: Snowboarding. There’s too many X, Y, Z axes going on in skiing like your ankles, your knees, your everything. Like in snowboarding, it’s pretty much just make a fist so you don’t break your wrists. And then if things are going weird, just sit down and you’re fine.

Melissa: Okay. You sound experienced at this, John.

John: Well, living in Colorado, I mean, you have to go a handful of times or else you can’t live in Colorado anymore. They actually ask you to move out. I know people that go like 200 times in the winter. Yeah, it’s crazy. But yeah, I’m like, you know what, I feel like four or five times in a year is good.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah, that’s cool. Well, we love mountains. My kid is actually applying to UC Boulder.

John: Oh, okay.

Melissa: He loves the school, loves the school. But also, he’s a huge skier. So yeah, we’re waiting to hear back.

John: Wants to hang out with Deion Sanders. Is that what’s going on now? Yeah, I’m a huge college football fan.

Melissa: Oh, is Deion an alumni there?

John: Well, no, he’s the new college football coach there, so everybody is like excited—

Melissa: Oh, he is. Oh, my gosh.

John: …about wanting to go play football there now.

Melissa: I didn’t know. Wow.

John: So, yeah.

Melissa: That’s huge.

John: So maybe they’ll be good again.

Melissa: That’s huge.

John: Yeah, we’ll see.

Melissa: Yeah. Maybe they’ll be good again. Last one. And in my book, the most important, white chocolate or dark?

John: Oh, boy, this is a tricky one. This is a tricky one. I think I’ll go dark chocolate. I don’t know if I answered properly. But yeah, I think I’m gonna go dark chocolate only ’cause you can also drink it, so it’s more versatile—

Melissa: That’s true.

John: …I feel like.

Melissa: I always lean back on the tannins. I always say “Well, it’s heart healthy. So I can have as much as I want.”

John: Right?

Melissa: Yeah.

John: I’m doing this for myself. This is for health. My doctor said.

Melissa: Right. I need it. So that’s all I got for you, John. So we got to know you.

John: No, no, I appreciate it, Melissa. Thank you so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This was so great.

Melissa: I had a great time. Thank you, John.

John: Everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Melissa outside of work or her books or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And don’t forget to pre-order the book, Your Resource is Human, on Amazon right now. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture and don’t forget to check out What’s Your “And”? as well. Maybe it’s a buy one get one type of thing. But thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread.

Welcome to Episode 541 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

And really quickly, I wanna plug globaldogart.com. Michael Puck was a guest on the podcast last year, and his “and” was dog photography. And he’s teamed up with other dog photographers from all over the world and created globaldogart.com. All the proceeds go to save 1 million dogs by 2030. And pictures of dogs foster social connections amongst people and promote trusting relationships in business settings. And researchers also confirmed that pictures of dogs increase our well-being and reduce stress, all things that make work better. So check out globaldogart.com. All the proceeds are saving dogs. So I just wanted to give it a quick plug here.

And don’t forget to check out the book, What’s Your “And”? It’s on Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Indigo, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. And please don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast soon. Don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every weekend. And this week is no different with my guest, Clint Murphy. He’s the CFO at Mosaic Homes in Vancouver, Canada, and the host of The Pursuit of Learning podcast. And now, he’s with me here today. Clint, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Clint: Thanks for having me. Really excited to talk to you today.

John: No, this is gonna be a blast. And for anyone that didn’t hear me on The Pursuit of Learning, we get to turn the tables, which is super fun. So I had such a blast. So I’m excited to have you be a part of this. And on my show, we do 17 rapid fire questions right out of the gate. So, things that I’m glad you didn’t ask me honestly when I was on your show.

John: I’m stretching. I’m ready.

Clint: Yeah, you’re ready. You’re all buckled in. Here we go. All right. Star Wars or Star Trek?

John: Star Wars.

John: Yeah. Me too. Same. How about your computer, PC or a Mac?

Clint: PC.

John: Yeah, two for two. We might be twins. How about a favorite adult beverage?

Clint: Oh, gosh. For me, that would be— Right now, I’d say it’s a Coke zero.

John: Coke Zero. Okay.

Clint: I’ve given up alcohol. It’s a new one.

John: Good for you, man. Good for you. Coke Zero. Okay, that counts. How about ice cream, in a cup or in a cone?

Clint: Always a waffle cone.

John: Oh, waffle cone even. that’s an upgrade. Nice. Fancy. All right. How about do you prefer more hot or cold?

Clint: I prefer hot.

John: Oh, hot. Okay. All right. Since you have the CFO background, accounting background, balance sheet or income statement?

Clint: Always the income statement.

John: Always the income statement. There you go. Just show me the number. Let’s get to it.

Clint: Let’s make some money.

John: Yeah. Right. How about a favorite sports team?

Clint: Favorite sports team right now would be the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

John: Oh, really? Why is that?

Clint: I love Tom Brady. I mean, he is the epitome of a high performer, and I chase optimal or high performance. And I mean, gosh, he’s 1 year older than me and still playing well in the NFL. That just scares the crap out of me. So, you know, it gives you and me an idea of what’s possible.

John: Yeah, exactly. Especially when you see his draft picture from the combine.

Clint: Yeah, exactly.

John: And then today, it’s like his hair’s gotten better. It’s like what is going on? Like I don’t know what, his diet or the cryogenic something. I don’t know what’s happening, but whatever it is, it’s working. How about a favorite number?

Clint: 14. Just I think when you’re a kid, my birth date. And so, it ends up sticking.

John: How about books, audio version, e-Book, or real book?

Clint: So, if it’s fiction, then I am great on an e-Book. And if it’s nonfiction, it has to be in my hands.

John: Yeah. No. I agree. Yeah. That works. How about a favorite animal? Any animal at all?

Clint: Oh, dogs.

John: Dogs. Yeah. It’s hard to beat dogs.

Clint: You’re plugged at the beginning. Dogs are just— they’re our best friends for a reason.

John: Yeah, no, absolutely. They’re amazing. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, or jigsaw puzzle?

Clint: Out of all those three, I would definitely do Sudoku.

John: Okay. That’s how I used to do my accounting, so that’s probably why it’s best.

Clint: Exactly. Exactly right. Exactly. You’re right.

John: There you go. There you go. How about a favorite color?

Clint: Oh, favorite color. I’m going to go with blue.

John: Yeah, mine. Same. How about a least favorite color?

Clint: Oh, gosh, yellow.

John: Yellow? Yeah. That seems to be— Brown’s been #1, but yellow’s creeping up lately. It’s too sunny or something. Would you say you’re more talk or text?

Clint: Oh, text. Only text.

John: Text. There we go. So my apologies for making you do a podcast.

Clint: No, it’s a totally different venue. But when it comes to the phone, I don’t answer it.

John: Right.

Clint: Just like if it’s important, text me and maybe I’ll call you.

John: Right. There you go. We got three more. Favorite actor or an actress.

Clint: It’s had to shift over time. It was Mel Gibson until he started to get into some challenging life decisions. So today, I will go with Keanu Reeves.

John: Ah, yeah. And also, just a good guy.

Clint: Yeah. He’s evolved well.

John: Yeah, definitely. That’s for sure. Yeah. Toilet paper roll, over or under?

Clint: I think you have to go over.

John: I mean, I would think so too, but there are people with cats that argue differently. And those people are scary, so I don’t talk to them.

Clint: Yeah. Problem one was cats.

John: That’s when I hit stop on recording the podcast and then we don’t release their episode, and I deny it ever happened. No, I’m kidding. I’m totally joking. All the cat people right now are tweeting me “rawr.”

Clint: We won’t hold that against them.

John: Right. Right. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Clint: The favorite thing I own would probably be a sauna that I put in my office at home.

John: Oh, wow.

Clint: So at the end of the day, after a workout, long day, I can jump in there for an hour and then you come out of that, hit the bed and just out cold.

John: Yeah. And sleep is great too.

Clint: Oh, yeah. ‘Cause your body’s regulating that heat. And so, you just go right out.

John: You’re just gone.

Clint: Yeah.

John: That’s awesome. I love it, man. That’s so cool. So cool. So, let’s talk writing, and podcasting, and how’d you get started in that world.

Clint: Yeah. So, similar to you, I was in the accounting world, and I was working my way up the ladder, and I got to CFO. And then around 2018, I started to think “Well, what’s the next opportunity?” And where I am, that really is the opportunity, I’m at the top. And unless I leave to start my own business, become a president, or I become an owner of my own shop, then I’m at the top for me. And so, then I started to say “Well, how long can I be at the top?” And I talked to my boss. And I gave him a timeline for how long I could be there and set that around January 2018. And then I started to think “Well, what am I gonna do?”

And in January 2020, right before COVID, I went on a silent retreat. And I was gone for a week. And on the flight home, I drew a roadmap of what I was going to do when I approached retirement. And a large part of it was write podcast, public speak, coach and consult, real estate and venture capital or private equity investing. But I thought I created a game plan and a roadmap, but it wasn’t supposed to start until let’s say 2024. And then COVID came and my kids’ activities got canceled. I was working from home. I didn’t have a commute. Just the amount of time I had available on a day skyrocketed.

And I’m not a person who can be idle. And so, I said, “Well, why don’t I do one of these things? Why don’t I just launch a podcast? Like let’s start.” So I thought about that in November, bought 4 or 5 books, read them, how to interview, etc., etc., and pressed go April 2021. And then the idea was “Well, I’ve gotta promote this.” And so, I started to do that on Instagram. And then all my colleagues, some of my colleagues, including all the shareholders, started following me on Instagram. And I thought this is awkward. So I stopped promoting the podcast on Insta and I found Twitter. None of them were there. It’s more my writing style. Short, tight, punchy.

John: Sure.

Clint: And after a while, John, I got even better at Twitter than almost anything I’d ever done. And the growth started to scale exponentially. And so, then I looked at it as a flywheel. Grow on Twitter, more people listen to the cast, I can invite on more and more authors, I’m not afraid to reach out to anyone. And so, now, they’re just sort of spinning together and growing together. And so, that got us to here. We hit 155,000 on Twitter—

John: Holy cow. Wow. Yeah.

Clint: …yesterday roughly. And we’ve been fortunate enough that we see a bit of a path for all of this. And so, it’s staying my “and.”

John: Yeah.

Clint: And at the same time, my wife is stopping her day job in 8 days and will start to work on everything I have on the go full time with me.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Clint: So my “and” will be ramped up with that additional firepower.

John: Yeah, no, absolutely. And that’s the thing is like, you know, even if it’s just on the side, if it’s revenue generating, that’s great. If it’s not, also great, you know. ‘Cause, I mean, for most people, to be revenue generating at anything is hard, you know. And especially enough to make a living. I mean, good God. You know? I mean, not everyone can be TB12 type of thing or Clint Murphy. And I made that leap as well. And I’m really hesitant to tell people that that’s okay because, I mean, I don’t want it to not work. And you’re going to find me first and punch me in the face first. You’re like—

Clint: You told me to do this.

John: Where is that idiot that told me it would work? I’m gonna go find him. I’m gonna use my last nickel to get to Denver and find John Garrett and punch him in the face and then fly home, but that’s cool, man. That’s cool to hear that. Like it started out as just a hobby. Let’s just give it a go and try my best at it. And then, you know, you start to get some success and then it’s like, okay, well, let’s do things strategically to not just waste the opportunity.

Clint: Yeah. Exactly.

John: It sounds like the podcasting and the writing are also a flywheel.

Clint: They’re definitely a flywheel because the idea now is that the topics that I write about will be the type of guests I invite on the podcast. So the conversations, the writing— and they will also tie— like you were saying before we jumped on the call, they’ll tie to what my skillsets are and where I see my offerings coming down the road. What courses will I offer, what will I coach and consult on, what cohorts or in-person based training will I do. And so, it will all tie to the topics that are on the cast and the writing that I do. And so, all of that’s evolving right now, is an evolution of really picking what are we gonna focus on and refining that message on all the platforms and mediums.

John: No, no, that’s awesome. And then the thing is, is that as it starts to separate from— ’cause, I mean, I look at it as almost like the Wile E. Coyote, the Road Runner cartoon where the coyote’s got one roller skate on each side of a cliff and then it just gets wider, and wider, and wider as your legs get spread. And then eventually, it’s like “Well, now, I have to pick a side.” And so, when you pick that side, you still have to have an “and” because when your “and” becomes your career, then it’s crucial that you still have something else because otherwise it’s no different than being a CFO and having no “and” at all and “and” being more accounting. And it’s like “Well, that’s impossible. You’re lying.” And so, it’s crucial that there’s that side of it as well, you know, that you think about too.

Clint: Yeah. To pick up an “and.” If and when my “and” becomes the full thing, what am I doing to release at the end of the day?

John: And maybe it’s exercising, like you said, you know, or maybe it’s sitting in my sauna. Like that counts.

Clint: Yes. Yes.

John: You know? You know? And those are all things that I love to do also. If I told you that you could never sit in your sauna again, those are fighting words. Like you’re like “Dude, no, like that’s not happening.” It’s fun to just test people on “No, no, I’m really passionate about it.” I’m like “Well, if I told you you could never do it again, I’d be all right.” “Okay. Well, then that’s not your ‘and.'” Your and is that thing of if I tell you you can’t do this anymore, you’re like “Dude, we’re gonna fight now.” I’m not even telling you that we’re gonna fight. I’m just gonna punch you. Just it’s on.

Clint: I think the benefit I may have is definitely a level of ADHD. So my number of “ands” will never be an issue.

John: Right. There you go.

Clint: It’s like “Hey, put a couple of those ‘ands’ on the side.”

John: Slow down on some of those there, Skippy.

Clint: Totally.

John: Yeah. And so, do you feel like the podcasting and the writing has given you a skill that you bring to work?

Clint: It absolutely has because if I look at the 3 or 4 things that I’ve had on the go over the last 3 or 4 years, or 2 or 3 years, I would say the podcast is one, writing is a second, and I’ll add in a third one because I just about finished a 2-year mindful meditation teacher certification.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Clint: And so, that ties into part of what I write about and part of the way I approach it. And so, I would say over the last 2-1/2 years, I’m a lot calmer, a lot more deliberate. So when you think of as a CFO, probably 5 years ago or 6-7 years ago when I did a 360 and I sort of referenced a frantic energy, which was, you know, Skippy as you—

John: Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Clint: And now, I think it’s getting a little more— you know, dare I say, a little more monk-like, a little more calm and present. And so, the energy I give off is more in line with what my role is. That would be one. I’m much better at asking questions whether the people are on my team or off my team. And some of the shareholders, when we were on a road trip, and we were doing an architectural tour, and I was asking questions and the way I was asking them, and as you get, you know, “Oh, I asked this, they said I’m taking them down a path”, and he was like “Wow, I really noticed since you’ve started the podcast, your question abilities are much better.” So that would be two. And then the third one—

John: Yeah. And you said you’re welcome and here we go.

Clint: Yeah. Like this is why you should be happy with what I do.

John: Right?

Clint: And then I would say the last two would be— So one of the things you realize with writing is when you’re a clear, concise writer and you can logically get across to the reader what you intend, that implies that you have critical quality thinking. And so, by demonstrating better writing and improving my writing skills, my thinking is better. And therefore, my also verbal presentation is better. So as a CFO, if I have to give a talk to our bankers, lawyers, our colleagues, my ability to deliver a speech is way better.

And I think in general, John, because you know, when I had you on the podcast and we’re talking about What’s your And”?, we talked a lot about colleague engagement and how to keep a team, my ability to be a better leader, and colleague, and CFO, that’s all improved because most of the people I talk to are about personal growth, professional growth, financial growth. And so, that’s all things I can share with the people that work with me. Like I’ll often write a summary of “Hey, this is what I talked about on the podcast.” And I’ll send it to the managers on my team and say “Hey, here’s something for you to think about with your team. Here’s how you should approach a conversation with a new colleague.”

John: That’s awesome, man. Yeah, ’cause, I mean, it’s all communication skills, which at the end of the day is everyone needs in any job really. But when you’re in school, they don’t really tell you how to get those communication skills. You know, go start a podcast, go write more, you know. Like no one tells you that. And so, it’s cool that the thing that you’re doing, just because you love it and have a passion for it, gives you a skill that that makes you better at your job or several skills actually that make you better at your job, which is an added bonus that always, always, always comes up on this podcast. There’s always some way that the and makes you better at your job and it’s so crucial. Especially that wrinkle that you have that’s different than if someone else were to become CFO just because you both have accounting degrees, or same certifications, or whatever. You have that different wrinkle that they don’t, especially the mindfulness side of it. Like Good Lord. To have a calm, collected, monk-like CFO, like that’s scary. That’s like ninja stuff. It’s like “Whoa!”

Clint: And a potential during COVID and during— you know, when you start to think about a downturn in the market and a potential recession, which in our industry we both think about and are looking at, is you’re able to just sort of detach from the situation and say “Okay, let’s remove the emotion. Let’s talk about the facts. What’s happening and what do we need to do right now? How do we need to plan? How do we need to prepare? It’s more fun.”

John: Yeah. Absolutely. And so, as the CFO, are there ways that you learn about people’s “ands” and ask them about them?

Clint: Yeah. Absolutely. You know, during COVID, it was constrained. There’s a bit of it. And I’ve always been a pretty curious person. So I always ask people a lot of questions. But even over the last month, what I’ve been doing is I’ve been setting up coffee meetings with colleagues who I don’t know yet because part of what happened, we have two floors in the office, my finance team’s on one floor and everybody else is on the other floor. And during the last 2-1/2 years, a lot of people were hired on that floor. We’re about 90 people at head office, so I knew everybody on a first name basis.

All of a sudden, you come back into the office and there’s 20-30 people I’ve never met. And you have a conversation with them and say “Oh, when did you start?” And they’re like “2 years ago.” And you’re like “Oh, my gosh.” So I’ve been taking them all out for coffee. And you know, I start the coffee with “Hey, I want to get to know you from cradle to today. Tell me your life story.” And then I just start to dig into it, right? Siblings, parents, where they grew up, where they are now, what they love, what they loved growing up, and just really dig into who are they.

Will I remember 100% of it? Probably not. Will I remember two or three good tidbits, ideally part of it being their “and”? Absolutely. And now, it’s almost impossible to ever forget their name. And that one or two tidbits that you picked up in your conversation, I probably should come back and write it in a notebook or in an Outlook notes. But you know, I just try to commit it to my brain, which is getting slower as we age junk.

John: Oh, man, tell me about it. But that’s like what’s your “and” on steroids? That’s like next level kind of like cradle to today. It’s like “Woo!”

Clint: Yeah. They’re always like “Really?” And I’m like “Yeah. “Well, I just wanna get to know you as a person.”

John: I was born this age and that speeds up that story. I’m a Mork from Ork and there I am. But that is cool, man. It’s basically you’re just saying I care about you and I have a genuine interest in you. And I’m sure you see them and you’re like “Hey, how’s the ‘and’, whatever that is, going? Or how’s this going?” Or you’re going to a concert. “How was it?” You know, whatever that is. And then if you find someone else that also loves Tom Brady as much as you, then you’re super best friends.

Clint: And we have a blast. Absolutely.

John: Right? Then we have a blast. Exactly. But that’s such a simple way, especially for someone that’s a CFO, ’cause it’s hard for us to remember when we were 22 and coming out of school. CFO was very intimidating person. And whether you wanna be or not, that title comes with a stigma that people put on you. And so, it’s cool that you’re breaking through that by reaching out and just being human.

Clint: That’s a good point because a lot of the colleagues on my team have been with me now 7, 8, 9, 10 years. And so, the relationship we have is great, and there’s definitely no intimidation factor for them. Like they’re willing to say anything to me with that type of working relationship. They’re often quite mean to me actually, but then they’ll tell me— They’ll be like, “Oh, this new colleague on our team is totally intimidated by you.” And I’m like “What are you talking about? Like how is that even possible?”

John: And it is because they’re spreading bad stories about you. That’s why.

Clint: Yeah, exactly. You’re right. I’m always just blown away by it. I’m like “Really? Okay, well, maybe I should take them out for coffee.” And they’re like “You might scare them if you do that.” And I’m like “Oh, this is so weird. Like how do I overcome this?”

John: Right?

Clint: Yeah. So I think it eventually goes away the longer we’re together, but it just takes time. And you go for coffee, ask those questions, get to know them and their family. Eventually, that goes away.

John: And yeah. And bring down your curtain, if you will, and your suit of armor and whatever. So then it’s like “Oh, no, it’s just Clint. He’s right there. He’s a regular dude. He likes to work out, and sit in a sauna, and do podcasts, and write, and Tom Brady.” So there you go. Like, I mean, just go ask him about any one of those things and you’ll be there for about an hour.

Clint: We have a Thursday meditation club. So some of them come and join me and get to know me through there, which is it’s helping me do my practicums for the course I’m doing. So instead of doing something outside of work, I just signed up to do my practicum here. And you know, at the last session, I think we had 12 colleagues in there.

John: Oh, that’s fantastic.

Clint: Yeah, we started with 6 and then more and more people started coming. And now, it’s at numbers where I’m getting a little bit intimidated.

John: Right?

Clint: It’s like “Ooh, I don’t know about if I want to give a talk to 12 people. I thought there was only gonna be 6 of you.”

John: Right? Totally different.

Clint: But it’s fun. Yeah.

John: Totally different. But that is cool, man. That is cool. And how much do you feel like it’s on the organization or leadership to create that space for people to have an “and” or share it? And how much is it on the individual to just maybe start a little circle amongst their peers?

Clint: I’m gonna say it’s 80/20 on the leadership. You know, it reminds me of when you think about diversity and inclusion, and you start to explore that, and you realize it’s not the people that are marginalized or on the outside that have the ability to change it. It’s the people that are in that position of power that are in the position of privilege. It’s on them to change it because they have the power. And so, if I don’t tell my team that they can have an “and”, and they can share it at work, and they can do X, Y, or Z, then they don’t know they have the power to do it. So I think I put a lot of burden on the leaders to lead in a way that it helps their colleagues understand what they’re capable of and what they can do. You know, I would normally use the word “empower”, but I read something recently that said, well, you can’t actually empower someone because they have the power to do. But I think you get where I’mg going.

John: Encourage it I guess.

Clint: Encourage. Encourage.

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Clint: And show them what they can do and then give them the leeway to do it.

And I’ve always been a big fan even of when you look at the survey that the Gallup poll that you do for colleagues and you do that survey, and I equate it almost to being a parent with your children in school. And a lot of people, when they do the surveys for how schools are performing, they say “Oh, well, those teachers teach to the test, and it’s not a good barometer of whether your kid’s learning or not.” Sure. But when it comes to the Gallup survey, I say to my team like you should print out those 12 questions, and you should be leading in a way where the answer on those 12 questions will be the right answer.

Because if the point of that survey is these are the 12 questions we’ve asked that if people say they’re highly agree that they are happy at work and they’re engaged, well, if that’s what we want and those are the questions, we want their answer to be highly agree. So let’s just lead in a way where they’ll say yes. So sit down with them and say “Hey, do you have the tools to do your job? Do you feel like you’re empowered to perform your best at work? You know, have I praised you in the last week?” Well, maybe don’t ask that one. Just do it.

John: Yeah. I love that. Yeah, just reverse engineer it and then, you know, the 360 feedback is super, super critical. I mean, I find so many times that feedback only goes top down and it rarely goes sideways or especially not back up. And if anyone needs the most feedback, it’s the people at the top because they’re only getting “yes man” answers or “yes people” answers if you will. And they also don’t think that they have faults. And there’s always room for growth. And so, yeah, that’s such a great takeaway, man. I love that. It’s literally like Gallup gave you the answers in a question form.

Clint: Yeah! It just seemed obvious and intuitive. So many people are like “Well, why would you say that?” And I’m like “Well, we just reverse engineered the answer.”

John: Right? Right?

Clint: We want highly engaged. These questions determine if they are. We want to make the answer yes. Just seems intuitive to me.

John: Right? There you go.

Clint: Yeah.

John: And see what happens and then good things. That’s awesome, man. No. And it’s such an easy takeaway too for everybody listening that’s in any sort of remote leadership-ish type position, which is all over the organization. It’s not just at the very top. So what a great takeaway, man. That’s awesome. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone that has an “and” that they feel like no one’s gonna care about or it has nothing to do with my job, so why should I ever share it?

Clint: I think for most people what I would say is— And this is something I heard on Tim Ferriss the first time, and I absolutely fell in love with it. He got it from one of his guests. I wanna say it was Seth Godin. And the idea was this, whenever Tim’s going to do a project, Seth taught him you have to want to do that project even if it absolutely fails. If you’re going to write a book or you’re going to launch a product, you wanna be happy simply with the launch or the start. And if you are— And I’ll give you a simple example. I wrote a fantasy novel with my sister and it’s going to be a series, and I might get emotional on this one.

John: Yeah.

Clint: We’re searching for an agent, then we’ll need to find a publisher. You understand the process.

John: Oh, yeah.

Clint: You’ve written a book. And maybe we’ll self-publish. But regardless, that manuscript, my dad read it. He’s probably only read 3 books in the last 40 years. One of them being the Bible, one of them being in the 1970s. So he hadn’t read a book probably in 30-40 years. And he read our book. So regardless of whether any person ever reads it or it’s published, like he looked at me and my sister and said like “I’m proud of you too and I really enjoyed it. I didn’t quite follow it like your mom did.”

And my mom was phoning me as she read it. And she was trying to guess, you know, where things were going. And she is like “Like what about this and what about that? And oh, I love this character. And ooh, I don’t like this one.” And I’m like “Well, that one’s modeled off my brother and that one’s me.” I’d never had been closer to her, John. And I think my sister felt the same way.
And if we never published a single novel or sell a single one, the joy that we got from doing it together and having mom and dad read it, like, so that’s your “and.” And that’s what you talked about earlier, is it’s so important to you intrinsically. Who cares if other people like it? Just do it. If you love it, and like you said, when you were on my show, rarely is someone’s “and” something so obscure or offside that we say “Well whoa, not that ‘and.’ No, no, no. Don’t do that.”

John: If it’s distracting and unprofessional, then, yeah, absolutely.

Clint: Yeah. Yeah.

John: I’m selling cocaine out of a van down by the river.

Clint: Yeah. Exactly. No. Don’t do that on the side. Don’t do that.

John: Let’s do something else. But it’s so true. I mean, so many people put that weight on themselves. Like in this case, I’m an author and it’s like “Well, I can’t call myself an author because da, da, da, da, whatever million reasons.” And it’s like “Well, I enjoy writing. I enjoy podcasting.” Well, now it doesn’t matter. The end goal doesn’t matter. And also, no one judges you for what you enjoy. You know, I enjoy writing. Well, how many books have you sold? No one’s asking you that question. It’s like “Oh, great. What do you write?” You know?

And then it leads to curious questions as opposed to giving yourself the label and then people may be judge or you judge yourself, but just start with I enjoy and then go with that, but that’s such a beautiful story, man. That’s awesome. It’s so great. Like you and your sister came together and then both found out that your mom loves your brother more. So, I mean, like that’s such a great, great—

Clint: We already knew it. And I had this conversation with a colleague this morning when I asked that question ’cause she was giving her family— And I mentioned— I said, “When all 3—” ’cause she has 3 people in her family. I said, “Whenever all three 3 agree on who the favorite is, they’re clearly the favorite.”

John: Right? Exactly, exactly. That’s awesome, man. Well, it was such great words of encouragement and a really great way to wrap it up. I feel like it’s only fair though, since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning of the episode, that I should turn the tables and will let you take the reins. And you’re professional. You know what you’re doing. So I’m all yours, man. I’m in the hot seat now.

Clint: The first one I want to know is what is the strangest “and” anyone has ever told you? Doesn’t have to be on the podcast. Just something someone told you and you thought I’m going to maybe stay a little bit more away from this person than I ever—

John: No! It makes me wanna actually have them on the show. I’m like “This is great because you’re not the only one.” There was a guy on who was a podcaster and a writer. Oh, wait, that’s you. Never mind. No. No, I mean there’s some— I wouldn’t say strange. There’s just some that I’ve never heard of like kite boarding. I never heard of that. I never even knew what that was. And it’s like “What is that?” That sounds awesome. You know? Or when I’m speaking at a conference last year and a top partner at their firm like to hula dance for fun just around her house.

Clint: I didn’t even know people still did that.

John: Yeah. Just for fun around her house. And it’s like “How cool is that?” You know? And it makes me wanna lean in more because, you know, when you hear golf or running,it’s like “All right. Well…”

Clint: Yeah. Everybody has that.

John: I mean, there’s a lot of people that are doing that stuff. Now, sure, certain people take it to an extreme level. But either way, it’s still interesting to me. But when you hear that hula dancing, or kiteboarding, or stuff I’ve never even heard of like pickleball at first, you know, things like that, then it’s like “Wait. What?” And it’s sort of that norepinephrine in your brain of you’re interested in interesting things. And all of a sudden, you lean in and you have follow-up questions. Wait, what is that? How’d you get started? Wait, what? You know? It’s all the questions that people would ask me from doing comedy. Like what were you thinking the first time you went on stage? Like what? Like, you know, all those things. So yeah, it’s super cool.

Clint: And then let’s say you had unlimited time and resources. What is an “and” that you think you could have that you haven’t actually explored yet? Top one or two things on your “and” bucket list.

John: An “and” bucket list. Okay. I think surfing would be really fun. Plus, it involves being warm and on a beach, so there’s that as well. I mean, I have surfed before, but to be like regularly good at it I think would be pretty fun. I think relearning the piano from when I was a kid. And so, I would like to be better at playing the piano. And what’s great now that wasn’t when I was a kid is there’s the internet, and you can just get any song.

I mean, of course, you buy the sheet music, but it’s songs you hear on the radio or songs from artists that you care about instead of whatever random music that you had to play in 6th grade and when I was like “All right, I’m not doing this anymore type of thing.” Those are probably two that I’m like, you know, I’m okay at, but I would like to be better at. I enjoy surfing. I enjoy playing the piano. I would like to be a little better so then I can maybe call myself that, you know, like type of thing. But they’re also just really fun to do, and they’re creative and physical, and they just challenge my brain in different ways. So that’s what I enjoy.

Clint: So you can still say I enjoy playing the piano.

John: Exactly. Exactly.

Clint: Perfect.

John: And that works. Awesome, man. Well, thank you so much, Clint, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This was super, super fun.

Clint: Yeah, thanks for having me. It was a blast.

John: Now, everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Clint outside of work, or maybe connect with him on social media, or get a link to The Pursuit of Learning podcast, you can go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the What’s Your “And”? book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 306 of What’s Your “And”? Follow-Up Friday Edition. This is John Garrett, and each Friday I follow up with a guest who had been on the show a few years ago to hear what’s new with their passions outside of work and also hear how this message might have impacted them since we last talked.

I’m so excited to let everyone know that my book’s being published in September. It’ll be available on Amazon and a few other websites, so check out whatsyourand.com for all the details. Or sign up for my exclusive list, and you’ll be the first to know when it’s coming out.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this Follow-Up Friday is no different with my guest, Meri Amber. She’s a musical comedian, singer, songwriter, do-it-all awesome person out of Sydney, Australia who also happens to have an Accounting degree, and now she’s with me here today. Meri, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Meri: Thank you so very much for having me.

John: This is going to be awesome. It’s always fun catching up with you. This time we get to hit record, so this will be super fun.

Meri: Woo!

John: Exactly, exactly.

Meri: I love buttons.

John: Right. So I have rapid-fire questions. These are ones I’ve never asked you before, probably should have, the first time, but I didn’t. Here we go, here we go. First one, if you had to choose, Harry Potter or Game of Thrones.

Meri: Harry Potter. I haven’t watched Game of Thrones. How can I choose it?

John: I haven’t watched it either, so, yeah. Here we go, heels or flats.

Meri: I wear flats almost exclusively. I do love the look of heels, but these, those things are torture devices for the feet.

John: Right.

Meri: If you can avoid them, just get some nice-looking boots or something.

John: The risk-averse accountant in you is still there. I could tell. It’s still there.

Meri: I do love them. I love them. Don’t get me wrong. For my wedding, I wore these heels that were so freaking huge. I looked like a gerbil. I had people commenting. They’re like, “You’re wearing stilts.” I’m like, “It’s my wedding day. I wanted to make sure I’m taller than everyone.”

John: Exactly.

Meri: Serious ankle-twisting risk going on.

John: That’s very cool. All right, here’s one, brownie or ice cream.

Meri: Ice cream.

John: Okay, all right. When you’re flying on an airplane, window seat or aisle seat.

Meri: Well, to be honest with you, I would prefer the window seat, theoretically, but because I have this amazing insight into the world of planes, I’ve realized they serve endless drinks, but there are not endless toilets. So, the aisle seat is usually more convenient.

John: That’s very funny. That’s funny. Do you prefer more hot or cold?

Meri: Oh, in terms of weather, hot, definitely, definitely. The whole rumor about you can just put more layers on, that’s a rumor. It’s not true. You know what it does? It makes it heavier. It doesn’t make you warm up. There is no warmth involved. I don’t even understand. It’s a lie.

John: That’s so funny, and it’s middle of winter there in Australia right now, so it’s especially bitter. Two more. A favorite Disney character.

Meri: Any of the evil doom lords are pretty good, definitely the evil ones. I’m thinking of the evil witch in Snow White, and I’m like, yeah, it’s pretty good. I like the — what’s the name of the evil one in Little Mermaid? I’m dying here, Little Mermaid. Ursula, she’s fantastic. I love her.

John: Yeah, that’s hilarious. I didn’t know you could be that mean under the ocean. It seems like a happy place.

Meri: Under the sea.

John: Right, right. The last one, toilet paper roll, over or under.

Meri: Oh, jeez, I don’t pay much attention to it. I know my husband’s very picky about it because I’ve accidentally put it on the wrong way, according to him. It’s just like, it’s there. It’s functional. What’s the point? He’s like, “We talked about it, like this.” I’m like, “Okay, sorry.” For me, that’s indifferent.

John: Indifferent, that’s totally acceptable. Yeah, so, Episode 77, a couple of years ago, and since then, it seems like you’ve been blowing up in a good way. On your social media, I keep seeing cool things happening. What are some things you’ve been up to in the last couple of years?

Meri: Oh, jeepers, it’s been a crazy few years actually. It’s been nuts, which is fantastic. Last we talked, I wasn’t married. I’d never been to the US before. Now, I have traveled around more. I am married. I did a whole bunch of Comic Conventions which are my main stomping ground in terms of live arts. I got started doing shows on Twitch which has been particularly good now with the pandemic and lockdown because all the Comic Convention shows I had coming up got, obviously, canceled or postponed.

John: Right.

Meri: So, now, I can still continue performing, I just do it online. Community on there is so wonderful. I feel so lucky, so lucky.

John: Very cool. In some of the Comic-Con shows that you had, you were headlining. It’s not like you had a hat out in front of the actual convention and playing as people came in. You were the event. You were on the main stage. That’s so cool.

Meri: It was very, very cool. There was a couple of really, really cool shows that I don’t think I’m ever going to forget for the rest of my life. I’ll never forget doing the Doctor Who show where they put me between Peter Capaldi and Pearl Mackie and John Barrowman, to do a show. That was very difficult.

John: That’s incredible.

Meri: Very difficult audience, possibly the hardest audience I’ve ever had to work with ever, but it was amazing, obviously, because to be able to say that I did that and to be backstage and see these people of significance, because I’m a massive Doctor Who fan, so having to withhold my inner fan girl which is in a state of constant explosion at that point.

John: And you have songs, Doctor Who songs, which I’m sure you were playing, but that’s awesome. That’s so cool.

Meri: I was dressed as a TARDIS playing on my guiTARDIS.

John: That’s awesome. Was there another show that you were like, was a huge…

Meri: So many of these shows are just wonderful. I tell people, sometimes it’s not even bigger show. Sometimes the smaller shows are so beautiful. I remember one of my first shows in Perth. No one knows who I am in Perth. I did a show, and it was just maybe 20 people. It was this really small crowd, but it was so intimate. I was just like, I’m just going to sit on the side of the stage. I don’t need the microphone. We could just talk and stuff. At the end, we were in a big group huddle, and it was really, really nice. I remember performing in Canberra and having people dancing around my Lego song, all these people dressed as superheroes. That memory is never going to leave me.

John: That’s awesome.

Meri: Who can say I have sung a song about Lego and a huge pool of people dressed as superheroes were dancing around to it? It’s amazing life experiences, and I feel so lucky.

John: Yeah, but the joy that you’re bringing to people is something not to forget about. Your creative side and that art and your music is certainly making people’s lives more joyous. So, the fact that they’re able to share that back with you is really important. Because if you just played in your studio and then put it out there, you wouldn’t even know. By studio, I mean, spare bedroom, I don’t know, but either way.

Meri: I’m going to say, I’ve been doing these shows online recently. I’ve been essentially just performing for my studio, but it’s been just as phenomenal. There’s all these moments from that that are just as amazing. We raised a whole lot of money for charity a number of times. Each time, after it finishes, the next day, I just spin in this euphoric state of we have helped all these people, this community that I don’t even feel like I built it, or I lead it. I just feel like I’m part of it, if that makes sense, and we helped all these people. It’s amazing.

John: Yeah.

Meri: I spent three hours flailing in a mankini as a reward for reaching a donation goal at one point. Things like that are also pretty memorable. That’s something I’m proud to say I’ve done.

John: Right, or probably will do ever again, but, hey.

Meri: Yeah, it’s done now.

John: It’s done now. Right, exactly.

Meri: It’s on the internet. There’s no going back.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah, but in the Twitch shows, it’s basically performing online, for people that don’t really know, it’s like a live YouTube video, sort of, or a Zoom call, if you will, in the world of corporate speak, but just somebody is able to see you perform, and then you’re able to interact with them from them typing back and forth, I guess, pretty much.

Meri: Yeah. Well, it’s a lot more interactive than people think because, obviously, there is the text chat, but there are ways to interact with the stream in general. For example, almost all the songs I sing for one of my three shows a week are requested by viewers, but even more directly, once a week, I do live songwriting where I literally write a song live on the internet, taken from chat, and we’ve written over 100 songs now. It’s crazy.

John: Wow.

Meri: It’s like live performance art. It’s coming together. That’s pretty interactive.

John: That’s got to be pretty hard because it’s not a pretty process. It’s not like, hey, I’m coming with a song I’ve been practicing for the last two weeks. It’s, no, no, we’re making this up right now. I don’t know how it’s going to go. This is going to be maybe not so pretty, the process itself, but then in the end, look what we did.

Meri: Well, some weeks are definitely better than others. We’ve had some pretty good weeks recently. We wrote a song that was The Apology You Asked For. That was recently written, and that was a passive-aggressive apology song where it’s like: I’m sorry you decided to cry. I’m sorry you tripped my foot and decided to fall. It hurt my foot, and you should watch where you walk. Things like that, it was a big passive-aggressive apology song.

John: That sounds hilarious.

Meri: Super fun to write, super fun.

John: Also, just what the general public is throwing out there and what they’re coming up with, and it’s like, wow, I would not have thought of that, but let’s weave that in, sure, sort of a thing.

Meri: Some people are really skilled. Some people have crazy skills. I don’t think they realize how skilled they are.

John: So, I guess, in general, I know that in your past — now, you’re doing this full-time, which is fantastic — I know that you did spend time in the corporate world. Do you have any words of encouragement for people that maybe have a hobby, maybe they’re a musician or a songwriter or something else, but they feel like it has nothing to do with their job?

Meri: Well, I think that, in general, humans are pretty multifaceted. To be properly happy within yourself, you can’t really deny yourself, if that makes sense. You have a love and a passion for something. I was once told that it’s both a gift and a curse. It’s a gift because obviously it means you can do this thing, and you can do it potentially better than others or with a unique twist. It’s also a curse because if you don’t do it, your mind will be clouded with guilt. You’ll constantly feel the pull and the urge to do it.

It is possible to do more than one thing at a time. Obviously, you’re going to have your main focus, but it’s more than possible to do more than one thing at a time. So, if you want your main focus to be your creative output, you can do that, while at the same time, studying, or you’re working part time. Or you could make your main focus your primary job, for example, an office job, while at the same time, working creatively. You’re doing your other passions beside it. I don’t think it’s possible to deny aspects of yourself and be fully happy and fulfilled within yourself.

John: Yeah, I love how you said that. It’s so true. Because even in the book that’ll be out in just a couple of weeks is, where it’s not an or, it’s an and. What’s your “and”? It’s not one or the other or the other. You don’t have to choose. You can be all of these things. You can’t untangle one part of yourself even if you’re in a different setting. You’re still that person with different dimensions to you. It’s just one that happens to be taking the lead.

Meri: Why would you want to?

John: Exactly.

Meri: It’s one of the things that makes you, you, is that there are so many different parts to you, so many things that you enjoy that come together to create you.

John: That’s so fantastic. So, it’s only fair, since I started out the episode, peppering you with questions which, what podcast have you ever been on where the host rudely fires away at you like that? So, now, it’s the Meri Amber Show, and I feel like this should be on Twitch, just for the sake of it. It’s the Meri Amber Show. You can now ask me questions, and I’m in the hot seat.

Meri: Okay. Prepare yourself, prepare yourself. The first question is, what season, if you had to live in one, would you live in? It’s the only season. There are no other seasons, all year round. Which season would it be?

John: I’m going to go fall or autumn. I’m a huge college football fan. That happens then. The leaves are changing, so it’s pretty, and it’s kind of a moderate temperature most of the time. Yeah, I’m going to go fall.

Meri: To watch the trees all year long, just…

John: Right? Well, no, instead of being green, they would just be red and yellow and orange and whatever, just before they turn brown and gross. Yeah.

Meri: Okay. Now, you mentioned college football, so this next question, I have a feeling this one’s going to get to you. I said, if there was only one season all year, what if there was only one sport in the entire world that you could choose, only one.

John: College football, hands down, and if this doesn’t happen this fall because of everything, I might lose my mind. Yeah, college football, that’s my thing. I’ll watch as much as I can with still being a functional human.

Meri: All right, all right. That wasn’t as hard as I thought. All right, so we were talking about various things you could do beside work, and one of the things, I think, I brought up was studying. If you were to study a degree, starting right now, so right now, you had to enroll in something, what would it be?

John: I don’t know. I guess I’m just curious on sales and marketing because I feel like when I did Accounting, that’s a really great base degree to have because at the end of the day, it all comes down to dollars, no matter what it is, but I feel like that secondary level of sales and marketing is certainly a big piece that I don’t naturally do well. Then again, I’d probably fail out, and it would be like ten years to get the degree but whatever.

Meri: Okay, now we’ve got an ordering question. I want you to order these: Cats, dogs, birds or fish. What order would you put those in?

John: Okay, so dogs are number one. Probably cats that act like dogs would be number two. A dog fish would be number three. Birds, birds are just weird. Birds make me nervous ‘cause they could fly, and I cannot — birds and snakes, it’s like, what are you doing? I don’t get it. You’re way too weird for me. Out in nature, I’m not scared of birds, but birds in homes, yeah, I don’t know. Maybe I’m just jealous. Maybe that’s what it is. I’m just jealous. I see those eagles, and I’m like, argh.

Meri: What about flying dogs?

John: Yeah, they’d probably weird me out. Yeah, that would be weird. So, yeah, that didn’t go as planned, I’m sure, but whatever.

Meri: That’s not the order I expected, dogs, cats that act like dogs, dog fish and then birds.

John: You wait ‘til they jump into your Twitch stream. That song is going to be so messed up.

Meri: Oh, dear. All right, last question, and this one’s relevant to the times right now. Obviously a lot of the world is in lockdown. I’m not sure if you’re in lockdown right now or not.

John: Oh, yeah.

Meri: Yes, you’re in lockdown. Okay, right now, what has been your coping mechanism of choice?

John: I guess wine, wine and ice cream, and way too much of it. Yeah, I’m nervous that my suit pants aren’t going to fit anymore because they’re not elastic. I’m sort of like, that next conference that’s in real life is going to be, we’ll see. I might have to do some laps around the neighborhood. So, yeah, probably that, I guess, and then, of course, finishing the book and getting that all ready to go.

Meri: That book looks amazing, by the way. For those who are listening, I have had a preview, and it looks really, really cool.

John: Awesome. Well, thanks, Meri. Yeah, and actually, pre-sales start mid-August, so, actually, very shortly. Meri, thanks so much for taking time to be a part of What’s Your “And”? This was super fun.

Meri: Yay! Thank you so very, very much for having me on, massively, massively appreciated.

John: Absolutely, and everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Meri in action or listen to her music or connect with her on social media or get the link to her Twitch channel, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything will be there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 285 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. Each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And” those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiates you when you’re at work.

I’m so excited to let everyone know that my book’s being published in just a few weeks. It’ll be available on Amazon and a few other websites. Check out whatsyourand.com for all the details. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s listening to the show and changing the culture where they work because of it, and this book will really help to spread that message.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. This week is no different with my guest, Gail Perry. She’s the editor-in-chief of CPA Practice Advisor Magazine and a CPA with her own tax practice who’s also written 34 books. If she had written mine, it’d be out by now, but now she’s with me here today. Gail, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Gail: Thanks, John. I really appreciate you having me on the show, and I’m looking forward to having a chat with you.

John: Absolutely. It was so fun meeting you in person at the ITA Conference a couple of years ago and glad that we were able to make this happen. You know the drill, 17 rapid fire questions. Get to know Gail in a new level. Here we go. Easy one at first, favorite color.

Gail: I think I would say yellow because it’s really happy.

John: Okay. All right. How about a least favorite color?

Gail: Maybe white because it’s pretty boring.

John: Okay. I see you. I see you. How about chocolate or vanilla?

Gail: I’m afraid it’s vanilla.

John: No, that’s good.

Gail: Not a fan of chocolate.

John: Okay, okay. How about pens or pencils?

Gail: Oh, my God. So, I can only write with a certain type of pen and a certain type of pencil. For pencil, it’s the Pentel 0.5 millimeter, the thinnest of the lead; and for pens, it’s the Pilot. It’s called the Better Ballpoint. It’s a fine tip, and you can’t get it in stores anymore, so I have to buy it by the case.

John: Oh, my goodness. That’s awesome. I love how particular you are. That’s fantastic. Now people know what to get you for Christmas.

Gail: Exactly.

John: So there you go, a case of pens. How about puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

Gail: Oh, I love them both. Sudoku if I’m in a hurry. Crossword if I have some time to take.

John: Yeah, I could see where you’re the writer and the tax person. You’re a little bit both. Yeah. You should just both hands. I’ve got the right hand, Sudoku, left hand… How about more early bird or night owl?

Gail: Totally night owl. If I have to do something at 6 or 7 in the morning, I just stay up for it.

John: That’s awesome. So great. Okay, this one might be tricky. Star Wars or Star Trek.

Gail: Trek.

John: Okay. All right. How about your computer, more PC or Mac? PC. Yeah, me too. How about your mouse, right click or left click?

Gail: Left click.

John: Okay. Making decisions, I like that. How about a favorite ice cream flavor?

Gail: Oh, well we did the chocolate-vanilla thing already. I don’t like things in my ice cream, so vanilla — yeah.

John: Oh, so just plain vanilla.

Gail: Yeah.

John: Okay. Yeah, we are the opposite. I want all of the calories. I want to chew it.

Gail: Load it up.

John: Which is weird. Yeah, yeah. How about what’s a typical breakfast?

Gail: V8 juice and —

John: Okay.

Gail: A hard-boiled egg.

John: Oh, nice.

Gail: Yeah. Or a bowl of potato chips and a bottle of root beer.

John: Okay. Now we’re being honest. There we go. There we go. This will be fun, balance sheet or income statement.

Gail: Oh, income statement all the way. I’m a tax person, so you are what you spend. I got to see the income and expenses.

John: There you go. How about cats or dogs?

Gail: Dog. 100% dog. My dog can eat your cat.

John: All right. What kind of dog do you have?

Gail: She’s a golden retriever actually. She doesn’t eat any other animals, but she has a scary bark.

John: Right. Then she just rolls over and lets you pet her belly.

Gail: Exactly.

John: How about a favorite number?

Gail: Four.

John: Four. Is there a reason?

Gail: There is, yeah. It’s movie-related. The very first movie I ever went to with a boy, I saved the ticket stub. I don’t have it still, but for a long time, I saved the ticket stub. You know ticket stubs have six numbers on them that mean nothing. I averaged those numbers because that’s also the accountant in me.

John: Right.

Gail: The average came to four.

John: Wow. That’s truly amazing.

Gail: It’s the weirdest story ever.

John: No, no. There’s always a fun reason of why they’re favorite numbers. Some people, it’s like, “It’s my birthday.” I’m like, that might be the best reason ever I just heard. How about least favorite vegetable?

Gail: Well, I have legume allergies, so I actually can’t eat peas and lentils and chickpeas, all that stuff, no hummus. I would say they’re my least favorite because I actually don’t even know what they taste like.

John: It’s hard to argue that. That’s a legitimate answer right there. How about more diamonds or pearls?

Gail: I think pearls.

John: Pearls, okay. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Gail: A favorite thing I own, I think, would be my flute.

John: Oh, okay.

Gail: I went to college as a Music major before all this other stuff happened.

John: Wow. Who could tell? Look at this. I had no idea. Do you still play?

Gail: I do some, but it’s been a while.

John: No, exactly. I used to play trombone in a marching band in college as well. However, walked or marched and played at the same time is beyond me. Also just your mouth and the muscles near your lips and everything, they’re shot when you stop playing regularly.

Gail: Marching band was great though. When I went to Indiana University, and they didn’t allow girls in the marching band when I was there, so I just — the little bit of rebel in me that I have, every fall when they would have marching band tryouts, I would show up.

John: Right.

Gail: And make them listen to me even though I knew I couldn’t be in the band.

John: Wow, that is so wild. Wow. Yeah. I mean they probably had no flutes.

Gail: No, they did not. They had piccolos. I was happy to play a piccolo too, but they wouldn’t let me in.

John: Right. Wow, that is crazy. All right. Also, I love the movie reference with the movie tickets.

Gail: Yeah.

John: Averaging out all the numbers. People didn’t even notice there were numbers on the tickets. Yeah. So, let’s talk movies. I remember at the ITA Conference, going around the room, and you were like, movies. I was like, what? That’s incredible. Did you grow up going to movies a lot? Or what drew you to this?

Gail: I did grow up going to movies a lot. I grew up in a Chicago suburb, Oak Park, where there were, I think it was five movie theaters within walking distance of where I lived. Walking distance was between one and two miles, but you can walk that far when you’re little.

John: Right.

Gail: And movies were super cheap when I was a kid, so we always saw all the movies, my friends and I. Anytime — it was an era where everybody played outside. You said goodbye to your mom after breakfast, and you ate lunch wherever you were playing at lunchtime, and then you came home for dinner. On rainy days, we’d either camp at somebody’s house and read books, or we’d go to the movie theater.

John: Nice. Yeah. Especially growing up at a Chicago suburb like that where you had access to so many theaters, then, yeah, you’re able to go and see so many. Were there some of the movies that you grew up watching that were some of your favorites?

Gail: I loved that blockbuster stuff, the big David Lean movies, Bridge Over the River Kwai. I loved Lawrence of Arabia and just the big screen spectacles that are larger than life. I think great movies should be larger than life.

John: Yeah. Because some of them, yeah, even I watched and I’m like, well, the end, you’re like, really? Did that just — what just happened? We could have just hung out and watch the wall and talk to each other.

Gail: Yeah, I know. I like movies that you have to see on a big screen.

John: Yeah, I could see that. That’s cool. So then, obviously, as you grew up and now in adult life, still big in the movies. Are you still going to theaters? Or is it more Netflix, Amazon, all that other — Hulu, whatever else is out there online, or a little of both?

Gail: It’s everything. I still, I love movie theaters. You can’t change that movie theater experience, just seeing a movie in a dark theater with the smell of popcorn and strangers all around you and hearing their reactions to the scenes. I remember when The Sting came out. I went with a girlfriend of mine. The Sting, if you recall, has some big surprises at the end, and the audience reactions were, including ours, were so like, oh, my God. I’m sure it wasn’t the first time I sat through a movie more than once, but we just turned to each other and said, “We need to sit through this again just to see another new audience and watch their reaction.”

John: Right. Once you know what’s going to happen and get their reaction.

Gail: Yeah.

John: That does add to the experience, for sure.

Gail: Yeah. So having the people there — and that’s not to say I don’t like a theater that’s all mine if I go to a theater especially on a Tuesday afternoon and I’m the only one there. I have a rule about that. My daughter and I came up with this rule that if we go in the theater, there’s usually music playing, if there’s nobody else there, you have to dance.

John: That’s awesome. That’s so good. So if it’s like you and two or three people but it’s your group.

Gail: Well, yeah, that’s my group then we all have to dance.

John: As soon as someone else walks in then it’s like, I didn’t see anything.

Gail: Yeah, exactly.

John: That’s super fun. That just makes it an experience, which I think is a lot of what’s missing nowadays when a lot of things are just two dimensional. You go to the theater and that surround sound all the way around you and plus the audience, and you’re in it together. You’re experiencing a movie as opposed to watching it.

Gail: Then if you have the great opportunity to go to one of the classic movie palaces, then it’s just a completely new experience. You think of the history of that theater. Because they don’t build them like that anymore, but just beautiful theaters that are ornate and housed generations and generations of people seeing incredible films, that’s a great experience.

John: Right. Is this something that you go to, to visit on purpose, or if you’re just in an area, you check it out?

Gail: I will make trips to movie theaters. It’s kind of a bucket list item because I love road trips, and I love classic movie theaters. There are books about all the classic theaters that are still in existence. So, yeah, that would be a dream trip, to just go around and visit all the ones that were built 100 years or so ago.

John: Right. Yeah. I mean just to think of all that, or even maybe the Marx Brothers came through, to do a performance.

Gail: I can’t believe you said that.

John: Things like that.

Gail: The Marx Brothers became the Marx Brothers — I mean they were brothers, and they were acting, but they took on the name, The Marx Brothers, at the theater my husband and I operated in Champagne, Illinois.

John: That’s incredible. I had no idea. Very cool. So then you guys operated a theater as well.

Gail: Yes. The theater was part of the old Orpheum vaudeville circuit. It’s the Orpheum Theater in Champagne, Illinois. When we took it over, we started learning the history of the theater because we were so entranced with this gorgeous place. When it was back in its vaudeville days, lots of — I mean all the Orpheum vaudeville stars came through there. One of the stories we learned was that The Marx Brothers performed there, and they decided, “Let’s call ourselves The Marx Brothers,” while they were there.

John: Wow. Yeah, in Champagne, Illinois, which is — yeah. Most people listening are like, I have no idea where that is. University of Illinois is there.

Gail: Yes.

John: I totally know where that is. Wow, what a small world. That’s super cool. Just the comedy side of me was Marx Brothers. That’s very cool. So then, yeah, when you run your own theater, then you can just watch them all.

Gail: You can watch them all. Yeah.

John: That’s so neat. So neat. Then obviously the writing, I can’t dismiss that. 34 books, you don’t do one accident. I mean doing one is hard enough. Does it become easier?

Gail: It does become easier, yeah. It’s still a challenge. Every time I start one, I think, oh, I’ve got this because I’ve written so many, but then I realize, oh, this is not easy. It’s easier than the first time was.

John: Yeah. Okay. All right. I think that the dovetails with the movies and story and all of this, and you’re growing up with that. Do you feel like that’s enhanced or impacted your writing side?

Gail: Absolutely. In fact, some of the things I write for CPA Practice Advisor are about movies.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Gail: Yeah.

John: But certainly there’s a creative side of you that’s not all black and white tax.

Gail: Absolutely. Yes. It started, so I went to school as a Music major. Here’s what happened. As a Music major at Indiana University, you couldn’t practice your instrument in the dormitories because you’d drive everyone else out of the dorm. So you had to go practice outside of the dorm. They had practice rooms around campus, and you reserved those rooms. You couldn’t just walk in.

As a freshman, I had last choice. The freshman always had the last choice in getting the room, so my practice time was like 8:00 at night, somewhere way across campus from where I lived which was really uncomfortable on several levels. Not only was it dark and in the winter it was cold, but also all my friends were ordering pizza and sitting around the dorm, doing their homework together and having a good time. Here I was, putting on a coat and trudging off in the dark to practice my flute. I became an enemy with my flute at that point because it was like the flute’s fault that I had to do this.

So after my freshman year, I decided I still wanted to do something creative. As a side note, during my freshman year, I had taken freshman English Composition which was a required course. My professor, who was one of my greatest inspirations, loved my writing, said, “You need to be doing this, and what you need is just lots of practice. Just stay comfortable and just keep pen on the paper, just keep yourself going.” This professor suggested, because every freshman on campus needed to take English Composition and 90% of them hated it, he said, “You could actually make a living doing ghostwriting for all these kids who have to do freshman Comp classes.”

John: Oh, wow. So it’s like you’re still in college forever.

Gail: Exactly.

John: That’s hilarious.

Gail: So I started doing this. I actually became the house writer for several fraternity houses on campus.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Gail: Who doesn’t want to write for fraternity boys? So I would write their compositions for them, and they pay me. That was great. That was a little side hustle when I was a freshman. So after freshman year of doing the late night practicing and stuff, I decided I wanted to have the fun in the dorms with my friends. I want homework that keeps me in the dorm, so why not just do this writing instead.

I wasn’t certain what I wanted to do with that, whether I wanted to go into Creative Writing or what, but Journalism seemed like a really good option because then I could write for the paper, or I could figure out what I want to write, and I could get a lot of practical skills. So I changed my major to Journalism and got to do my homework in the dorms which was important.

John: Right, and hang out. Yeah.

Gail: Yeah.

John: That’s an amazing story. That’s great that the professor’s like, “Yeah, yeah, go ghostwrite.”

Gail: Yeah. Go help these people cheat.

John: Right. That’s insane.

Gail: It is. Yeah.

John: That’s so funny.

Gail: It was wonderful.

John: Yeah. I mean now there’s the Internet, unfortunately, but, yeah, you could be a gazillionaire.

Gail: Exactly.

John: That’s awesome. Yeah. You got your writing chops in and writing all different kinds of topics, I’m sure, because everybody had them, which leads into obviously giving you a skill set that you bring to the office.
Gail: Well, and actually, there was an additional thing. My third year on campus, which later became known as my first junior year on campus.

John: Okay.

Gail: I needed to really make a living. Years ago, my dad had a business and when I was in high school, had taught me basic bookkeeping skills. So I figured I could actually get a job job doing this instead of just writing papers for the fraternity boys. So I did that. I started working as a bookkeeper and from then on until I graduated, which took six years because from then on, I couldn’t go full-time because I was working. Each semester, I’d see how many courses I could buy based on how much I had saved from bookkeeping, so I had three and half years of bookkeeping under my belt by the time I graduated with a degree in Journalism. So that was how they sort of met, those two pieces of me.

Then I got out of school. I decided I’ll do this some more, some bookkeeping because I already know how to do this as a job. Then I decided to go back to school and actually get a CPA. So I did that and put in my time at Deloitte in Chicago so I could get licensed and actually be a CPA. At this point I’m married, and I’m in Chicago. All I’m doing is going to movies when I’m not working for Deloitte. Married a movie buff, my husband and I were going to movies all the time, many times a week. We got to know some of the movie theater owners in the Chicago area because they saw us. “You were just here yesterday, weren’t you?”

John: Right.

Gail: So got to talking about what it takes to run a movie theater and it just sounded so cool. We thought, well, we’re kind of young, and we could do this. It may not take, but let’s just do it now because we’ll probably never going to get a chance again. My husband was teaching law school, so his schedule was kind of flexible. I decided I would quit my job and do full-time movie theater. We couldn’t get a theater in the Chicago area because the union is so tough up there. Unless you own several, you really can’t make it work.

His parents lived in Champagne, so we thought, let’s just go down there. There happened to be the Orpheum movie theater which was struggling. We talked to the owners of it and said, “You’re having trouble with this anyway, why don’t you just rent it to us?” They said, “Okay.” We knew nothing about anything about running a business except that we loved movies. So we went down that path. We did it for just over a year, but the thing is we ran a business. We ran every aspect of that business. I learned so much about small businesses and payroll and employees and cash flow and building maintenance and how to run a movie projector and all the stuff that goes with it.

That became part of my groundwork for going back into public accounting, and I could really talk on a different level to our clients because I’d been there. When I ultimately started going into writing, I wrote on a level that was conversational and plain English which means I wrote for dummies and I wrote for idiots because that’s where the voice is.

John: Right. Yeah. That’s where most of us are, to be honest. You use all these big fancy words, and now I’ve got to go to the dictionary and look it up, then come back and I forget what page I was on and all this. It’s easier for people to digest as well.

Gail: Mm-hmm.

John: Wow. What a fascinating story where, in several of these moments, it feels like absolute chaos. I don’t know which way is up from down and whatever. If you look back now, it’s almost an exact straight line.

Gail: I know. It seemed like a flow. Although some of the early books I wrote, got me out on book tours which was fun. I was on a book tour for The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Doing Your Income Taxes, and I was introduced as this CPA and then they brought me up onstage. I was speaking to an auditorium of people, and I started out by saying, it seems like if you look how I got here, that I just followed a lot of sharp turns that nothing actually goes together, but it actually is completely a flow. I’m not sure anyone could follow that path if they tried to do it on purpose.

John: Right.

Gail: But it all just, for one reason or another, it all just led completely to where I am now.

John: Yeah. It’s similar for me because people ask, “Well how do you get to where you’re — I don’t even know. I don’t even know how to tell you to do this. If you follow in my footsteps, it’s really hard so maybe don’t do that. But you had to go through that to get to where you are now, so it’s like, I don’t know. That’s so cool though and really awesome. Especially to hear how you’re able to take these things and make them more relatable to your clients, whether it’s talking about movies or it’s knowing how to run a small business like the movie theater or it’s writing in a way that people will actually understand.

Imagine a movie where everyone uses just giant words. That would be a terrible movie. I don’t think blockbusters use more than three-syllable words because you want to hear the story. You want to get in. If I’m too busy trying to digest the words then it takes too long to get the story. That’s awesome and so cool. So cool. Did you ever feel reluctant to share this side of you with clients or even when you were at Deloitte back in the day? Or was it, this is who I am, take it or leave it?

Gail: No. Especially at Deloitte, actually, I was pretty reluctant to share because most people who go through accounting school, they do four years of accounting school, which I didn’t do; they take the CPA exam, which I did do; they get into a firm like Deloitte, but they followed a certain path. They pretty much all followed the same path and so their experience is way different from mine.

I felt a little bit like I cheated because my Bachelor’s was in Journalism, then I went back to school. All I did was take accounting courses for a year and a summer and then I sat for the CPA exam. I didn’t go through the whole four-year curriculum that most of them did. Although I’d had experience bookkeeping and running a business, which most of them hadn’t, but I felt that I didn’t follow the right path, so I didn’t talk about my past much.

John: Yeah, yeah, or even just going to the movies or what movie you just saw or things like that. Yeah. Because you just feel like you don’t relate sort of a thing, but then at some point, that teeter-totter obviously tipped, or is it still something that you don’t share as much?

Gail: No, I share it all now. I don’t care.

John: Yeah, yeah.

Gail: It basically tipped when, after the movie theater, my husband and I decided to start a family. I decided I’d go back into public accounting, but I was able to get part-time jobs which, at the time, wasn’t as easy as it is now. I thought I can raise my kids and work part-time in accounting. Basically I worked tax seasons and then a little bit the rest of the year. Then I got into training people in the accounting firm because I was like one step ahead of them in terms of a lot of things. Also, I hadn’t mentioned this, but I had a minor in Computer Science when I was in college too because I just couldn’t resist.

John: Right, mine as well. Right?

Gail: Yeah. This was when computers were just coming in on the scene, so I could learn this stuff really fast because I knew how computers worked and then I could teach it. That’s how training started, and that evolved into writing because I was writing, I mean writing technical stuff because I was writing the training manuals for my classes.

Eventually, I decided I really wanted to be home with my kids. I could take this writing and make it a thing. That’s what I did. I left public accounting and went to full-time writing which turned into accounting journalism. At the beginning that was just writing books. I’d write two or three a year and do some editing. I wrote a column for the Indianapolis newspaper, so I had money coming in from a variety of different sources. It was a splotchy period, but I was doing it from home before being home was cool.

John: Right.

Gail: It was great. It worked out well.

John: Yeah, that’s fascinating. That’s really fascinating. I think we are reluctant at first to share those outside of work sides of us. Why do you think that is? If you would have met a stranger out and about or at a bar or coffee shop and they would have said, “Oh, what do you like to do,” you would have talked movies. No problem. But then you’re in a Deloitte office or you’re in an accounting whatever, for some reason we don’t want to do that, even to this day, a lot of people.

Gail: Yeah. It’s a little bit cutthroat. There’s that. I at least had a feeling nobody else was going to movies, three or four nights a week.

John: Well, certainly. Yeah. I don’t think anyone goes to movies like — but even once a month.

Gail: Yeah, exactly.

John: Even then they weren’t —

Gail: One of the great parts about operating a movie theater was that all my movie expenses were deductible.

John: Totally. Exactly. Because even if you add up, well we’re going to make less money; yeah, but we’re also going to spend less. We can add that, in theory, to our income and be like, wow, we are making so much money.

Gail: Right.

John: Because you’re not spending three to four days a week buying tickets.

Gail: Yeah. I felt a little bit of this is not serious accounting business, so I kept my personal life to myself when I was working there.

John: Yeah, yeah, but then now that you do share, do you find that it gives you a unique relationship with people or something else to talk about?

Gail: Definitely something else to talk about, yeah.

John: Because that’s what I found too, is it seems like most of the people that are on here, once they do start sharing, they’re like, wow, I wish I had done this sooner. Because people light up, and especially movies. It’s like, wow. Who hates — I’m not even sure if there are people that hate movies. People may be just indifferent or whatever.

Gail: There are people who hate to sit through a movie. There are people who hate movie theaters.

John: Those people are evil, evil people you don’t want to be around. I’m just kidding. I’m kidding.

Gail: I just don’t understand them.

John: Right. Exactly. It’s like, what? It’s probably those weirdos that like chunks in their ice cream. That’s who it is.

Gail: Something like that, yeah.

John: Right, right. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe has a hobby or a passion that they feel like has nothing to do with their job?

Gail: For me, it was almost like in my life, I’ve been sitting in a little boat going down a stream, and I let the current take me. I just think rather than trying to force yourself into a position, just go with the flow. That’s very cliché, but for me that’s worked really well. When opportunities come, I assess them. If it seems like it’s good, even if it’s not a direction I saw myself going in, I’m not afraid to take those chances.

John: Yeah, and it clearly — some of those are driven by your outside of work hobbies and passions and then some of it’s dovetailing with the hobbies and passions, with your job or just in some way not letting that side of you go. That’s what I think is really interesting through all of this is that your relationship with accounting was in and out, hot and cold, if you will, but your relationships with movies and writing was always there. At no point did you ever stop going to movies. I think that that’s really important for us to take away is that these passions and interests are with us through everything. That’s awesome.

Before I wrap this up, it’s only fair that I allow you to now become the host and rapid fire question me since I so rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning. So I’ll let you fire away.

Gail: All right. Do you have a favorite movie or a few favorite movies? If so, why are they your favorites?

John: Well, I went to college in the Jim Carrey, Adam Sandler, David Spade, Chris Farley heyday, so, Ace Venture, Dumb and Dumber, and Tommy Boy, just those movies that are like, you can turn it on and laugh within the first two minutes. It’s kind of an escape. On the flip side, I really do like Good Will Hunting, I thought was a really great movie and really deep, and some of those movies that just make you think about things a little bit differently on the flip side. I like super, super shallow and then super, super deep, I guess. I want to be taken somewhere, moved somewhere, in the end. Some of those movies where, you watch it, and I’m like, is there a second half, what happened type of thing. Are we where we first started? This is an hour and a half. I’m not getting that, those kind of thing. Of course, Rudy. I graduated from Notre Dame.

Gail: Oh, yeah.

John: If I even just hear the music, I will start to cry. It’s just like I’m just a baby when it comes to that too. Yeah, a lot of those sports movies, man, I will cry at all of them.

Gail: I love feel-good sports movies. That’s a great genre.

John: So that’s where I’m at.

Gail: One more question. We’re, of course, on behalf of our audience, so I’ll just share the fact that we’re recording this in the time of Coronavirus, so my question is, what are you streaming?

John: Oh, that’s interesting. My wife and I are watching Billions. It’s on Showtime but through stream, catching up on that because we never, never watched that. Yeah, that’s pretty much it and then just movies here and there I guess. It’s hard though because you’ve either seen it or they just took it away or whatever. You’re like, oh, no, type of thing. Where, had we not been going through all of this, then never would have known. Great question. Really great question.

Thank you so much, Gail, for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”? This is super fun.

Gail: Super fun. Thanks for having me.

John: Absolutely. Everyone, if you want to see some pictures of Gail outside of work or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there, and while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 277 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. Each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it in another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and,” those things above and beyond your technical skills and the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

I’m so excited to let everyone know that my book’s being published very, very soon. It’ll be available on Amazon and a few other websites. Check out whatsyourand.com for all the details. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s listening to the show and changing the cultures of where they work because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. This week is no different with my guest, Erin Kidd. She’s a Tax Individual Program Manager at Thompson Greenspon in Fairfax, Virginia. Now, she’s with me here today. Erin, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Erin: Thanks so much for having me. I’m excited to be here.

John: Well, this is going to be awesome. You know the drill is 17 rapid fire questions out of the gate. Get to know Erin on another level.

Here we go, first one. Oceans or mountains?

Erin: Oh, ocean, I guess.

John: How about a favorite actor or actress?

Erin: Oh, that’s so hard. Sandra Bullock, I’d have to say.

John: Oh, that’s a good answer. Very good answer. How about a favorite color?

Erin: Ocean blue.

John: Oh, okay. All right. All right. How about a least favorite color?

Erin: Orange.

John: Orange, yeah. I hear you on that one.

Erin: It’s not my fave.

John: Yeah, yeah. How about are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Erin: Oh, I’m definitely not a night owl. I’m an early bird by default, but I’m probably in bed by 7:30 on Friday. That’s an exciting Friday night for me.

John: That’s awesome. That’s hilarious. How about more pens or pencils?

Erin: Probably pencils actually. I don’t like to make a mistake. I like being able to correct it quickly and maybe nobody notices, right? That’s one.

John: Erase, and there you go. Okay. How about when it comes to puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

Erin: Sudoku.

John: Sudoku, yeah. That’s how I do my tax returns. I probably shouldn’t have told an enrolled agent but whatever.

Erin: They’ll be fine.

John: Whatever. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Erin: Probably Star Wars.

John: Okay, all right. On your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Erin: PC all the way.

John: Yeah, me too. And your mouse, right-click or left-click?

Erin: Right-click? That’s where all the cool stuff is. Open up all the options.

John: How about do you have a favorite animal? Any animal?

Erin: Probably a cat.

John: A cat, okay.

Erin: Yeah. I mean they’re just kind of — they don’t really care about what you got going on. They’re pretty independent, but occasionally, you get lucky and they want to bless you with their presence.

John: I feel like that’s a bit of your spirit animal a little bit.

Erin: Yeah, it might be a little bit.

John: That’s awesome. How about a favorite place that you’ve been on vacation?

Erin: Oh, Anna Maria Island in Florida. I go every year with my mom and my sister. We go in May. It’s what I look forward to after tax season so yeah. We got a Mother’s Day weekend. We’ve gone like the last four years. It’s fantastic.

John: Yeah. That’s really great, really great. How about when it comes to tax returns, more corporate or personal?

Erin: Oh, personal definitely. That’s what I specialize in. I look at the other stuff, I’m like, I don’t want to deal with it.

John: Right? Too many loopholes. How about diamonds or pearls?

Erin: Diamonds.

John: Diamonds, okay. We got three more. How about a favorite number?

Erin: Eleven.

John: Eleven. Is there a reason?

Erin: January 11 is my wedding anniversary. Most people say they like even numbers. I like the odd number because there’s one in the middle and it’s even on either side. I don’t know. I just like it.

John: Okay. No, I hear you. How about a favorite movie of all time?

Erin: Wonder Woman.

John: There you go. All right. Very cool. Last one. The favorite thing you own or the favorite thing you have?

Erin: Actually, the favorite thing I own now is 14 acres on the side of a mountain in West Virginia.

John: Oh, nice.

Erin: That’s why I struggled with your mountain versus ocean kind of thing. It faces west and it’s our retirement property. We’ve got two payments left and then we just need to you know, put a driveway and a house on it.

John: That’s fantastic. That’s very cool, very cool. It faces west so you get the sunset?

Erin: Absolutely.

John: There you go. Yeah. Hopefully, you’re up late enough for when the sunset happens.

Erin: You know, maybe in the winter.

John: I’m teasing. No, but that’s so great to get to know you.

So yeah, let’s talk. I mean the writing. How did you get into that? Is that something you’ve been doing since you were younger or you got into it later in life?

Erin: Well, probably a little later in life. I mean I always kind of wanted to be a writer. I love to read. That’s kind of my favorite thing to do. I love to read, and I wanted to — but I found I can’t write fiction. So non-fiction is kind of where it’s at. I’ve been doing a few things, and then when I start my job at Thompson Greenspon, I specialize in individual taxes. There’s a lot of down time when you first you know, particularly when you come on board somewhere, right? You’re kind of in the middle waiting for things to happen.

We had a blog but it wasn’t very robust. I started kind of just filling my time doing that and you know, other accountants, they don’t care to write so they like that.

John: You’re exactly right. I mean writing isn’t necessarily the forte, really communicating for some reason, not really the forte. So good for you because I mean yeah, it takes all kinds to make that happen. That’s interesting.

Erin: I don’t know. I just found it’s a way particularly for clients, you’ll find that you’ll ask the same questions over and over again. If you can write something that communicates with the client and answers those questions, those are things they’re going to reach out for and look for and kind of build that trust with them.

I’m also the credit financial counselor. I just collect acronyms for name. I just look for things to do. That was another way that I kind of found things to do writing, that I can help communicate some of that basic you know, personal finance type activities.

John: Right, right. Most of it’s for the firm blog and things along those lines like technical expertise writing, if you will?

Erin: A lot of it is that but I try to write it you know, we write in layman’s terms. You have to remember your audience. That’s the hardest part I think for folks who are in our industry trying to write is remembering who their audience is.

We try to make it very conversational and it’s something that’s acceptable for clients to eat in little bites. I started a little bit and actually been able to write a couple of articles for Thomson Reuters.

John: Oh, nice.

Erin: Yeah, that was kind of a big bucket list item I was super excited about that. I really like the actual practice management type stuff. That’s a little bit different than what we write on the firm’s blog or for yeah, some military spouse type places that I’ve been writing for.

John: Yeah. It keeps you busy. I mean it’s that creative side that balances out the income tax side, if you will. Plus, yeah, there’s a lot of time when there’s not income taxes happening, and so yeah, like you said, it fills that time.

Erin: I love to get people like a checklist or an item or you know, something that they can take away with them. It drives me crazy when I see these things on you know, this is how you do this but they don’t really tell you how to do it, but you explain the concept and not a checklist or like okay, the mechanics of this is what you do, so trying to put that information out there, I think is helpful. I mean I like it so I figure at least one other person out there is going to look for it, right?

John: Totally, totally. Because I mean yeah, if you’re always trying to just create something that other people like, then it’s not going to be good. It’s going to be something that you also like and care about for sure. That’s fantastic. You touched on it briefly, but the military spouse, I mean obviously, that’s something you’ve been doing maybe even longer than the writing?

Erin: I’m a third-generation military spouse so evidently, we like the uniform. I’m not really sure. What’s going on there? We don’t learn. My husband was active duty for 22 years. My dad was 20 years. My grandfather was 20 years in the military. So it’s kind of all I’ve known and that’s kind of sometimes, we hold that close to our military spouses because unemployment for military spouses is a pretty rough topic or underemployment, so we do a lot of those gig type things. We just fill it in; the writing, the whatever, lots and lots of volunteering, that kind of stuff. So yeah, kind of who I am.

John: I believe it, because I mean I never thought about that because my father was career Air Force, which I don’t know if it counts as military but it’s the Air Force.

Erin: He was just smarter than everybody else.

John: That’s also funny for the other people in the military. But yeah, he was career Air Force and yeah, it’s got to be so hard because every two or three years, we were moving and yeah, so to have a job or to interview with a place where they’re going to ask you right away, are you leaving in two or three years, and they might hold that against you which is crazy because even civilians can move in two or three years. I mean it doesn’t matter if you’re military or not. If you have the skills, you should be hired there type of thing.

I think that’s great, the stuff that you’re doing advocating for that, and the team that you’ve built there for you, do you want to tell people about that? I think it’s really fantastic.

Erin: It’s probably my favorite thing about our firm is that they were willing to embrace this opportunity. We were in the Metro DC area. We’ve got a huge military spouse population but we don’t just work with them. Most accountants know you’ve got compression during tax season, right? You’ve got pretty much eight weeks where you’re trying to get as much done as you can.

In order to deal with that, we ended up creating this seasonal military spouse remote prepare program. They are employees. I recruited them from my credit financial counselor group on Facebook, military spouses and you know, are you interested in this? Have you done taxes before? What are you doing? And so we’ve built a team. This is our fifth year.

We’re addressing an issue that every accounting firm has. Everybody has this compression problem. Not that there’s anything wrong with outsourcing overseas or doing that kind of stuff, but we’re outsourcing military spouses who are sharpening their skills or who have done this before, for other firms. It has been a great opportunity to continue that.

John: Yeah. Everybody wins. I mean everybody, like you said, I mean the firm has a need and so you’re going to outsource it to whether it’s local or it’s overseas or whatever, but then because of you sharing this is a passion of mine and this is who I am as a person, then you’re able to weave those two together which I think is really magical and had you not shared that side of you or they didn’t care about that side of you, then who knows where that work would’ve gone?

Erin: We have that conversation a lot, military spouses. Do I tell them I’m a military spouse? Do I not? Do I keep it hidden? You know, it’s a big part of your life to kind of not share with the people you work with, right? This is your everyday life.

Being able to share that with them created this great opportunity and they were willing to do it. It doesn’t hurt that we have a large government contracting practice. So now, this is kind of you know, we’re also supporting this other piece of the military life. It definitely has created opportunity, people look for it every year, I get emails. Are you still hiring? Are you going to do this again? People talk about it. They’re great, the folks that do it, we have people in Oregon, we’ve got people in Alaska, we’ve got people in Georgia, Delaware, I mean we’re in Virginia. We’ve got some in Tennessee this year.

If I can get any of those no tax states or payroll folks like that, I don’t know. I think it’s a fantastic opportunity. It’s a great way to address the need that we all have.

John: I love it. I think it’s so fantastic. Is there a thing that you shouldn’t share? I mean maybe if it’s illegal, but something like being a military spouse is such a big piece of who you are. You can’t unwind the two. We can’t just have Erin and Erin. Erin’s a military spouse. It comes with you, and why not share?

Erin: And it was always a struggle before. We’re not a protected class. People are going to say, are you a military spouse? You’re like, I don’t think that’s relevant. It’s difficult. We talk about how to address those things. Like you said, civilians change their job every two years. You’re going to have that staff. They move all the time. But I’m here. I’m flexible. I’m adaptable. I have resources. I can do these things. If you get me, you’re getting somebody who’s committed to doing a great job.

So being able to sell that is really important and sharing that, but sometimes, it doesn’t work. People don’t want to hire military spouses or you end up being underemployed which is the other problem. You’re always starting over entry level. You’ve left every time. I ended up staying at home for 14 years writing piecemeal, working on my masters, collecting letters to go after my name.

John: Other certifications.

Erin: There’s nothing to do, and working seasonally, or a lot of folks go into entrepreneurship. They end up working for themselves because they can take it with them.

John: Right, right. But it’d be the same as if somebody were to ask you in an interview, are you a writer?

Erin: Right.

John: Yeah, that too. I mean these are all facets of who I am as a person and they’re hiring all of you, not just the accountant part. It applies to every single person that’s in that office, and other professions as well. I mean it’s not just an accounting thing, for sure. I think it’s great that you do share. Not only that, but you’re embracing others across the country that are in similar position that you were in.

Erin: Absolutely. Anybody who wants to build a similar program, wants to work on that, I mean I’ve talked to several different people, different firms, would love to help them try to implement something on their own to be able to do it as well. I think it can be a great thing and everybody’s out there. We’re looking for work. I want to do it.

John: But I also believe that I mean in your specific case, that the relationship that you have with those people is next level, I mean right away because you both get each other, and even if someone has a different passions, interests, or life, then at least they get who you are but in this case, I mean everyone’s lived the same life. It’s like yeah, we know what it’s like.

We get this. We know the acronyms. We know whether the guard’s going to salute us or not, whether we’re going on base, we know all these things. That’s got to be really fun and make work a little bit more engaging for everyone.

Erin: It’s great to be able to speak with them. We speak the same language. Not only do we speak this tax jargon that we’ve got going on, but we’ve got this other sets of acronyms and jargon that we all know as well. I was just thinking like the OPTEMPO, right? The operational tempo of the military has been just insane for the last 20 years.

It is completely different than when let’s say my dad was in the military and that impact that it has on families and being able to address that and understand that we can do this remotely. We have the flexibility. The world is small. Being able to know and saying you know, I understand that you’ve got whatever or your spouse is TDY, on temporary duty somewhere and you can’t work, they just calm down.

John: No, I know what you meant.

Erin: So you need to work at night rather in the morning, or you know, so we don’t have these iron-clad core hours for our remote team. We give them the opportunity to create their hours. We just want to know when we should expect you or how long we should expect you.

John: Exactly, yeah. If that communication is there, then why not? I mean as long as the end-product gets done, maybe it’s a little bit more difficult to manage because then it’s not just hammering everyone flat, everyone do the same thing. It’s you know, we need this done by this time, and then whatever you’re doing, I don’t care, that type of thing.

Erin: Get it done.

John: Yeah. If you’re having some problems, then let me know, type of a thing. I think that those relationships are huge and you have people coming back like you know, telling their friends. Hey, you got to get in on that. Clearly, that’s important because they’re not in on it because it’s tax prep work, they’re in on it because I get to work with other people that also care about me, and I care about them to another level.

Good for you. I think that that’s really powerful and something that I think that as professionals, we sometimes forget, or we let it slide I guess, whether it’s on purpose or accidental, I think it’s fantastic.

It’s crucial. It’s really, really important. How much do you feel like it’s on an organization to create that culture where share those other sides of you or how much is it on the individual to maybe just you know what? In my little circle, I’m going to do this.

Erin: I think it’s maybe a little bit of both. You have to feel safe, or the whole part is that you’re in this relationship and this culture that you feel safe, to share the authentic pieces of you. I’ve heard something the other day which was great. You don’t necessarily need to bring your whole self to work, just bring your authentic self to work, who you really are, but maybe leave a little bit at home, which I thought was great because I was like, oh, yeah, maybe I should not talk about some of those things.

But being able to share things that are important to you, things that touch you, things that move you that are important, you spend way too much time at work to not do that. In particular, when you’re working on 60-70 hours a week, maybe during the busy season, and people worked — not just accountants, other folks work these crazy hours too. Attorneys have cases or you know, whatever. And being able to have depth in your relationships, that creates trust, those small moments create trust. That’s what creates you know, a great support network.

John: That’s exactly it right there, because I mean especially in the accounting profession, everyone wants to now be called a trusted advisor but if you’re not creating this depth, and if you’re not being vulnerable and if you’re not opening up and sharing these other sides of you, then you’re not a trusted advisor, you’re an advisor-advisor.

Erin: Right, or historian, right?

John: There you go. That’s exactly it. Why do you think it is that our default mode is to not share?

Erin: Maybe we’ve been burned or we’ve been told, oh, people don’t need to know that. They’re not your friends. They’re just people — you know, and okay, maybe they’re not your friends-friends, but maybe they are or maybe they can be, you sit all the time with these folks, and I think having an understanding of one another that allows you to have a real life.

Our firm really works on work-life balance and knowing that you have a real life outside of preparing tax returns or audits or whatever it is that you do. I think having those relationships make it happen.

John: No, for sure. I mean it makes business better. I mean even from one department to the other, I mean if somebody has a smaller client that you do both the audit and the tax, well, instead of just sending an email to the tax department and getting angry when they don’t get back to you. Instead, it’s well, I’ll just go Erin. We’re friends. We talk about normal life things, type of a thing. It makes everything better.

Plus, I think, people want to work where people care about them and more than just a work product. Like you’re doing with that group that you have, I mean people care, and you care. That’s an emotion that’s not always in the professional world unfortunately.

I guess does your firm do anything specific to encourage people sharing? Or is it just more of a tone at the top sort of a thing?

Erin: I think it’s really just kind of a tone at the top. When we talk about young staff and mentoring them on how to become professionals or learn their way in the world and what they’re doing, we tell them don’t just look for board opportunities wherever, or don’t just look for volunteer opportunities wherever. If you’re interested in animal welfare and you want to just volunteer whatever the humane society, then do that, and just having those conversations or you work at the PTA, you don’t have to be the treasurer of the PTA.

John: Right.

Erin: Or just having the volunteer activity and being able to do that, that’s going to make you more likely to build a connection to build a relationship and somebody’s like, oh, what do you do? Oh, I’m an accountant. Oh, you know what? My neighbor was just talking about blah, blah, blah. That’s where those referrals come from, where that working connection comes from.

John: Yeah. I mean business comes from it.

Erin: Yeah, absolutely.

John: That’s an excellent example of join boards, volunteer at organizations that you are passionate about, not whatever the firm spins a wheel and tells you, you have to go do this one. It’s like well, I don’t care about that, then don’t do that. And yeah, you don’t have to be the treasurer for the love of god. Tell them you don’t do math after 5:00 p.m.

Erin: Right? If there’s a distillery, and you happen to be interested in that, you know, hey, go look and see what they’re doing. Go find out.

John: Exactly. That’s fantastic. That’s really awesome. Before I wrap this up, do you have words of encouragement for anyone listening that thinks that you know, my passion or interest has nothing to do with my job?

Erin: Just don’t be afraid. Don’t be afraid to be real. Be authentic. Be yourself. Get it out there. Be a good person. Do the right thing. That’s going to take you a really long way.

John: It’s so simple but yet so foreign.

Erin: Right?

John: But such great advice. I mean just don’t be afraid and just be you. This has been so much fun, Erin. But before I bring it in for the landing, it’s only fair that I allow you to rapid fire question me if you’d like since I rudely started out the episode peppering you with questions so you’re now the host. Here we go.

Erin: Fantastic. I’ve got three questions for you. Favorite food.

John: Favorite food. Wow, yeah. This is hard. I don’t know. I mean a really good lasagna is always good. I’m going to end up eating half of the pan. That’s always — just not salad, or I mean salad’s good but like yeah.

Erin: Something with lots of cheese and carbs.

John: Yeah. Meat and yeah. You’re supposed to have a heart attack while you’re eating it, something like that.

Erin: Perfect. Movie or escape room?

John: You know, I’ve never done the escape room.

Erin: They’re fantastic. You have to do it.

John: Escape room. There we go.

Erin: They’re amazing.

John: I don’t think I’ve been to a movie theatre in a long time. I mean they’re just on the TV. Netflix and Amazon and yeah. So escape room.

Erin: Escape room. Yeah, you really should. Highly recommend. It’s awesome. Fiction or non-fiction?

John: You know, non-fiction, I’m kind of a nerd like that on those kind of books but yeah, I think more non-fiction is more my thing. I guess I mean by definition, it’s more real. So there we go.

Erin: Surprise.

John: Surprise. As I was getting ready to say, of course it is, it’s called non-fiction, you moron. But anyway, no. But this has been so much fun, Erin. Thanks so much for being a part of What’s Your “And”?

Erin: Thank you.

John: Totally. For anyone who wants to see some pictures of Erin outside of work or maybe connect with her on social media, and see some of her writing, make sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button and do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends, so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.

Welcome to Episode 228 of What’s Your “And”? Follow-Up Friday edition. This is John Garrett. Each Friday I’m following up with a guest who’s been on the show a few years ago to hear what’s new with their passions outside of work, and also hear how this message has impacted them since we last talked.

I’m so excited let everyone know that my book is being published very soon. It will be available on Amazon and a few other websites. So check out whatsyourand.com for all the details, or sign up for my exclusive list and you’ll be the first to know when it’s coming out.

Please don’t forget to hit Subscribe so you don’t miss any of the future episodes of this podcast every Wednesday and now with Follow-Up Fridays. I love sharing such interesting stories each week. This Follow-Up Friday is no different with my guest, Ingrid Edstrom. She’s the Priestess of Profits at Polymath in Ashland, Oregon. I love the alliteration. That’s off the roof. Now she’s with me here today.

Ingrid, thanks so much for taking time to be with me with What’s You’re “And”?

Ingrid: Thanks so much for having me again, John. This is a lot of fun to be able to come and catch up with you.

John: Oh, totally. I mean, so much fun. I remember hanging out at QuickBooks Connect several years ago, and then you’ve been on the show and then all that. So it’s just cool to catch up again from episode way back in the day when you were on Episode 54. That’s crazy, crazy.

Ingrid: I didn’t know you were writing a book. That’s so exciting. I can’t wait to learn more about your book.

John: Yes, it’s coming out very soon. Yeah, it’s basically this message just blown out in a book form. I think that’ll help spread as well. So people read it, and they’re like, “Hey, you got to read this” type of thing. So people that haven’t met me or see me speak, help spread the message above and beyond the podcast world.

Ingrid: It’s such an important message. Thanks again for having me today.

John: Oh, that means so much. Thanks, Ingrid. But yeah, we start out, before we get into the fun, it’s super fun with the rapid-fire questions right out of the gate. So here we go. Seven, I got seven for you. First one, if you had to choose, Harry Potter or Game of Thrones?

Ingrid: Oh, I think Harry Potter because I haven’t read the book series yet, but Game of Thrones, the last season, just didn’t — it didn’t end well for me. I was like, you know, they kind of dropped the ball there.

John: Right, it ruined it all. What’s a typical breakfast?

Ingrid: Protein shake or eggs.

John: Protein shake. Okay. Okay. Do you have a favorite food, any food at all?

Ingrid: Oh, man. Probably chocolate.

John: Nice. That’s a good answer. That’s a good answer. That leads me right into the next one, brownie or ice cream?

Ingrid: It depends on the day, but brownie with ice cream on it is like the best thing ever.

John: That’s a completely fair answer. Do you prefer more hot or cold?

Ingrid: Cold.

John: Cold. Okay. Two more. You travel a fair amount. When you’re on an airplane, window seat or aisle seat?

Ingrid: Window, always.

John: Nice. Okay. And the last one, maybe the most important one, toilet paper, roll over or under?

Ingrid: Over.

John: Over. Okay.

Ingrid: Yes. So the only people who aren’t crazy that do it underhanded like that are the ones who have cats that will unfurl the toilet paper roll. My cats don’t do that, so I don’t have to worry about it. But if you do it under, the pictures are facing the wrong way.

John: Right, right. That’s awesome. Very cool. When you were on three years ago, we talked incredible, fire breathing, playing in an Irish band, and then, of course, Penny, the puppet, if you will, that you do a lot of shows with and webinar type things with online. So are those still pieces of your life and things you’re doing outside of work?

Ingrid: Yes and no. I mean, there’s such a variety always, and there’s things that kind of go in and out of our lives like seasons. I’m not playing at the local pub anymore. My friends sold the bar.

John: Oh, no!

Ingrid: But I do still play at festivals occasionally. So I’ve got a gig coming up actually in a couple of weeks playing music at the medieval fair in Northern California. That’s a fun thing. I get to go dress up in costume and play Irish music with my husband and my friend Earl the Bard, who is our fantastic hurdy-gurdy player.

John: Very cool.

Ingrid: Oh, that’s the cool thing. Fire breathing I still do on occasion, playing with fire mostly just with friends at a festival, that sort of thing, but it’s a hobby that’s once in a while. If for no other reason, then it’s not very good for me. So it’s a lot of chemicals and things. Ask a Bookkeeper is still happening, and people can learn about that at askabookkeeper.com. That is our puppet show where we are working to create for small business something like what Bill Nye does for science, taking the big intimidating ideas that scare people away from following their dreams and making them more approachable, digestible and fun. It’s like Sesame Street for small business owners.

Penny is now not alone. We have a new character which is Procrastinator Gator. Procrastinator Gator is like Super Grover in that he goes to this transition over the course of his story. He owns Gator’s Bayou tours, and he takes people out on his boat. He loves being out of the water with his customers, but he’s not so good at keeping up on the business stuff like emails and payroll. So over the course of his story, he learned that he doesn’t have to do all of those things himself, and he becomes the delegator and learns how to delegate the things that are not his forte, not his passion. It’s a really fun, cute story and a great way of helping our clients see that they don’t have to be the only person doing things in their businesses, that there’s other ways of going about that if they’ve got roadblocks there.

John: I love that. That’s awesome. Very cool. And you do such a great job of, like you said, explaining it in simple terms for everyone to understand, not just coming in with all this corporate accounting speak jargon and acronyms and stuff that I don’t even think ever even accountants and bookkeepers totally know.

Ingrid: Our clients need us to speak their language.

John: I was going to ask, how important do you think it is to deliver it in client speak?

Ingrid: I think it’s really, really important. If, for no other reason, we need to get back to the core why of what we’re doing. It’s not just about money and success and power. We do what we do because it makes a difference in the world. It makes a difference in people’s lives. And it’s all really about connection. It always amazes me when accounting professionals take on as many clients as they can, and they bill by the hour to just turn out tax returns or get the compliance accounting done. And they don’t end up really connecting with their clients and not really getting to see what it is they’re building and the impact that’s having on the world.

I’ve made a lot of changes in my business, and I’m not doing it that way anymore. Now, it’s all about the connection for me and really focusing on that impact and making sure that my clients feel heard and that their questions are getting answered and that their business is going in the direction they want it to go. In order to do that, we need to have the right client relationships. We can’t just take all commerce. It’s got to be a fit.

John: Yeah, I love that. And what sparked that change?

Ingrid: I was hearing that we needed to specialize. Part of it is just the practicality of the accounting profession has become so complex and diverse at this point that we can’t be a specialist in everything. There are too many different software platforms and especially industry specific software that we can’t take all commerce anymore. There are so many industries that need specialists. So an example is here in Oregon, a handful of years ago, cannabis was legalized, and so now there’s a lot of accountants that are specializing in cannabusiness. The rules changed so quickly that if you’re going to even think about touching cannabusiness in your practice, you have to specialize in it. It’s the same if you work with attorneys, if you work with medical professionals. My specialty that I have become exclusive in at this point is working with tours and activities companies. I am the safari accountant.

John: Nice. There you go. And that goes back to your days before that when — yeah, I remember you had some experience in working with animals and stuff like that as well, right?

Ingrid: Yes. I’ve got a biology degree.

John: Yeah, that’s right. Okay. I did remember. See, boom. Yes. Because I remembered us talking about that and seeing some pictures of you with big animals. That’s awesome. So that has to tap into a little bit of that as well.

Ingrid: Yeah. Working with the people that I resonate with and specializing in their software, specializing in seasonal businesses that need to operate in multiple currencies, but there are so many ins and outs and ups and downs, and there’s been a lot of changes in my business since the last time you and I spoke, lots and lots of changes.

John: But it sounds like it’s all in the way up. I mean, everything’s really, really good.

Ingrid: It is and it’s not. That’s one of those things where success is messy, and I think that that’s an important thing to communicate here. So we can normalize some of these ideas and share with your fantastic listeners that whatever their experience, ups and downs, they’re not alone. They talk about how comparison is the thief of joy. Well, it’s also the thief of validation. And just recognizing our own experience as being valid and real and authentic, we spend so much time comparing ourselves to others and thinking, “Oh, I’m not successful, if I don’t have this, this, this and this,” and it’s not working.

Over the last six months, I have completely turned a whole lot of things upside down because of some major disruptions in my business. Some of those things can be seen as good. Some of them could be seen as not so good. I’m going to do the latest thing, and then I’m going to go back to the beginning. So it’s a little bit ironic to me that just this week, I was recognized for the third or fourth time, something like that, by CPA Practice Advisor Magazine as one of the top 40 under 40 in the accounting profession. This is my last time getting that recognition because I am 39, so I won’t be under 40 anymore.

John: Well, congratulations. That’s huge.

Ingrid: Thank you. And the weird thing is that with that kind of recognition, and I’ve got some other recognitions, I think we talked about last time I was on your show, most powerful women in accounting from the future, those kinds of things, there comes a lot of imposter syndrome. I am not a CPA. I do not have an accounting degree. I have a biology degree. I taught myself how to do this stuff. And every day I see posts on social media and things like that. Yesterday, someone from an enrolled agent who specializes the legal stuff in the representation, and she was saying that some organization or something like that wasn’t recognizing her as doing what she was doing because she’s not a CPA, that there was something saying that she couldn’t do that thing, that she didn’t have the credential. She’s like, “This is so frustrating to me because most CPAs can’t do what I do, and they don’t teach this stuff in school. Why do I need to be a CPA to do this thing that I’m doing?”

It’s same thing with what I’m doing with my clients. At this point, I’m not doing a whole lot of the background management accounting. I teach people how to fish. And if they don’t want to do the fishing themselves, I teach them how to delegate that to someone on their team or to someone that they can delegate the day-to-day stuff that doesn’t want to do the bigger picture, 30,000-foot view stuff that the big brainstorming things that I love doing with my clients. So I am actually no longer billing myself as an accounting firm. I’m billing myself as a consulting firm.

The big thing that shifted that was about six months ago, I was on vacation in Australia with my husband and woulda, shoulda, coulda seen it coming years before my fantastic business partner, Vanessa, who I’ve worked with for five years, ended up having some big personal things going on in her life that she needed to take a big step back from everything. It resulted in some upheaval, not between me and Vanessa but just in Vanessa’s life where I was watching my business basically burst into flames from literally the other side of the world. It’s one of those disruptions where it was just me and Vanessa for quite some time and recognizing when we were in that position of, okay, this is life. We’re going to roll with it. We’re going to figure it out. She needs to step back. I wish her all of the wonderful health and blessings. I love Vanessa so much. It’s not about blame. It’s not about fault. There are things that I can see looking back where I could have seen some of this coming a couple years ago. It was like being a frog in slowly heating water, ignoring some of those red flags and signs. If, for no other reason, then — I adore Vanessa. I love working with her. I had often said, what if something happened to you? I don’t know if I’d want to do this anymore in the same way that if something happened to my husband, I don’t know if I would want a two-acre farm with goats and chickens. Those are the dreams that he and I have together.

So when my business partner, my work wife, had to leave, I completely had to reevaluate everything. I realized, you know what, I don’t want to do the back-end management accounting stuff anymore. That was Vanessa’s favorite thing to do. I really enjoy the automation and streamlining those processes. I want to develop deeper relationships with fewer clients and just focus on the strategy, advisory services. I’ve been turning my business upside down focusing a lot, but I also felt like there was something I was missing.

This is a really big shift for me because just in the last handful of months, I basically put Polymath, my business, somewhat on autopilot. I’ve got a couple of clients that I’ve kept that I don’t know if I could ever part with them because I love them so much, but I’m not really taking on a lot of new clients right now while I’m taking a bit of a sabbatical on writing a book.

John: Good for you. Look at you.

Ingrid: Well, this was something that as I was trying to figure things out, when Vanessa was having to leave, it’s so interesting to see how these things happen and the timing of them. I don’t believe in coincidences. All of this stuff came down right on the spring equinox. So here we are just after the fall equinox recording this. So six months ago and I said, you know what, I’m going to give myself a season to figure this out. I’m going to give myself three months, which is actually really perfect timing because in June, I’m speaking at the Scaling New Heights Conference, and that’s my last big commitment. I taught five classes at Scaling New Heights this year, and it was a blast. I loved it. It was a huge, huge undertaking to teach five courses at a conference in one go.

So that was the last big commitment that I had that I needed to wrap up before I could really figure stuff out. So just kind of working through what needs to change and figuring things out, I was seeing a business coach at that time and looking to sort some of this out with her. At one point, I was looking at all of this stuff that I had to do, not really knowing where I was going, feeling like things were totally up in the air.

This is part of where the imposter syndrome comes in. Here I am one of the top 40 under 40, and I have no clue what I’m doing. I’m going to put that right out there right now. None of us have any clue what we’re doing. We’re all making this up as we go. And if anyone says otherwise, then life’s about to hit them with the “Yeah, you think so.”

John: Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Right, square in the face.

Ingrid: So anyone who’s feeling unsure, you’re doing great. Just keep swimming. We’re doing great. So here I’m trying to figure this stuff out. I’m looking at my website and my marketing and the stuff that I’m doing for clients and the classes that I’m teaching. The conference is coming up. I’m feeling totally overwhelmed and like it’s all ineffective and having no idea what the priorities need to be because I have no idea if I’m going to keep doing any of this or if I just want to throw in the hat and help my husband with his business, just figuring all this stuff out. I was talking with my buddy business coach, talking about marketing and clients and do I need to find more clients and networking with colleagues and finding that people who want to collaborate, make awesome things like podcasts and stuff like that, and trying to figure out what the priorities are.

We were talking about the idea of the one thing, the book The One Thing, which I haven’t actually read yet, but I’ve seen the TED Talk, and trying to figure out, what’s the one thing that by doing that, everything else becomes easier or unnecessary? Sheryl, my coach, asked me, “Well, you’ve talked about your client avatars, what they have in common. But what are the colleagues that you want to network with? What do they have in common?” And I realized there’s one thing. .The people that I want to collaborate with, the people that I want to work with, like me, want to create a rising tide that raises all ships. We don’t believe in a zero-sum game. And I realized that the people who do believe in a zero-sum game and who are operating in a zero-sum game mindset, that there’s really no point in playing with them because they’re always trying to win at somebody else’s expense, and that’s not how I roll. It’s win-win or no game.

John: Right and yeah, because not only is it a, you know, there’s only one winner, but they want to be the winner, which is not good for anybody.

Ingrid: There’s always something weird and underhanded. There’s something trying to take advantage, and it just doesn’t work. It doesn’t work. So I realized that I needed to start every conversation I have with new people I meet moving forward with ways to find out whether or not they’re operating in the zero-sum game mindset. So that was the first thing. But then this idea kept percolating in my mind over just the next like 15, 20 minutes.

I started thinking about it in the context of Shirzad Chamine’s fantastic book Positive Intelligence where he talks about the saboteurs. We all know the saboteurs, those voices in the backs of our heads that say all these negative things to us and cut us down. They just get in our way, and they pull the wind out of our sails and make it so that we don’t have the energy to do the things that we need to do and it’s because of these niggling voices. He talks about how the judge is the lead saboteur, and that there’s a bunch of accomplice saboteurs like the victim and the pleaser and the avoider, hyperanalytical, hyperrational, hypercritical. There’s all these different things, but they’re all rooted in judgment, judgment of ourselves, judgment of others and judgment of circumstances. As I was thinking about this in context of the idea of a zero-sum game mindset and for anyone listening who doesn’t know what zero-sum game means, now that I’ve said it a million times, it’s the idea that in order for someone or something to win, something else has to lose.

So I realized that judgment is the saboteurs as zero-sum game thinking is to pretty much all of our human limiting beliefs. When I realized that, I realized that I kind of cracked the code, that by realizing this, by focusing on getting past zero-sum game we can do a much more effective job working with our clients and try to bring things back to a win-win collaborative conversation there, working with our families, our spouses, and our friends and finding ways to create win-wins, focusing on our common interests rather than opposing positions. But also within ourselves, those niggling voices in the backs of our heads that cut us down are based in a zero-sum game mindset that make us think that in order to be happy, we have to sacrifice something, that somehow we don’t deserve to be happy and that is ridiculous. It is so ridiculous. And since then, I’ve been seeing this everywhere. It’s just like the movie 21 where, you know.

John: Yeah, with Jim Carrey. Yeah.

Ingrid: Right. I’ve realized that creating not just a nonzero-sum game but a positive-sum game, so focusing on those win-wins is how we can create infinite potential in our lives. We just have to find the people who want to collaborate on those ideas with us, and we can do things like stop taking more resources than our planet can give us. We see things on the bigger picture, on the longer game, and we focus on what’s the real win. And that I realized was pretty much the biggest message that I could communicate to people. That is what I’m focusing on with my book is how to do that, how to communicate it in simpler words to be able to reach people.

I think that that could very well be the vaccine to what is plaguing the human race right now, why we don’t listen to each other, why we have political disruption and economic disruption and environmental disruption. Let’s listen to each other and try to find those win-wins.

John: That’s awesome. What a huge takeaway for everybody too. If you shut down that judgment inner voice, then the other inner voices have no conduit to let anything out.

Ingrid: Well, and it took a major business disruption.

John: Really awesome, Ingrid. Holy cow! Lives are changed right now, mine anyway. I mean, golly, this is awesome. Awesome.

Well, before I wrap this up, though, it is only fair that I allow you to rapid-fire question me.

Ingrid: I have a couple for you.

John: Yeah. And after all that deepness, I don’t know if I’m ready for these. Here we go, though.

Ingrid: I bet you can find deep existential answers to these rapid-fire questions, if you would. They can be quick and easy and simple silly or they can go deep if you want. If you could be any animal, what would you be?

John: Oh, man, that is pretty deep. Pretty deep. I don’t know, for some reason, I think dolphins are cool. They’re wicked smart. They’re super fast. They can do all kinds of cool stuff. Plus, you have the whole ocean to go play in. And then people are nice to you. They don’t want to hunt you. I don’t know. It’s like everyone’s your friend. But yeah, so I don’t know. I guess the dolphin. That would be kind of cool.

Ingrid: That’s a great answer. Love it. Okay, and here’s the other one. If you could have any superpower, what would you choose?

John: Oh, man, I feel like being able to sing is a superpower to me because I’m terrible at it. That would be a good one. If I could just sing, that would be fun. But yeah, I don’t know if that’s a superpower, but it is to me because people that can sing well are, yeah, I don’t know how you do it because I cannot.

So awesome. Well, this was so much fun. Thank you so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

Ingrid: My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me again, John. It’s so great to reconnect with you and say hello to all your fantastic listeners and catch up a little bit.

John: Everyone listening, if you want to see some pictures of Ingrid in action or maybe connect with her on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or wherever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.